130716ED

Page 14495

1 translation and I will wait after that for a while for your answers to be

2 translated. It doesn't mean that I'm not satisfied because I'm pausing.

3 A. Thank you.

4 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday we heard from you that you know

5 Mr. Dean Manning. Would you agree with me that Mr. Manning is a lay

6 person and that he's not an expert in your area of expertise?

7 A. Mr. Manning is not an expert in my area of expertise or at least

8 he was not at the time.

9 Q. Regarding the tests that you did in the course of your work, it's

10 true that Mr. Manning did not take part in these tests; right?

11 A. Mr. Manning did not take part in any of those tests that I

12 performed.

13 Q. He did not take part in any conclusions or opinions reached on

14 the basis of your tests; is that correct?

15 A. No, he did not take part in any of my conclusions or opinions.

16 Q. Mr. Manning drafted a number of written reports, quite lengthy

17 ones, and he made some observations and conclusions in reporting on the

18 work that you performed. Am I correct if I were to say that you did not

19 help him in the drafting of any of these reports?

20 A. I have never seen such reports, therefore I've never helped him.

21 Q. Yes, that was my following question. I'm going to ask you if

22 it's correct that Mr. Manning never asked you to look at and verify the

23 information contained in his report, at least not in the part that

24 concerned your area of expertise?

25 A. No, he never asked me to do that.

Page 14496

1 Q. In his testimony, Mr. Manning gave some of his opinions regarding

2 certain strips of fabric that were found in the garbage dump and that

3 were not close to any graves. On page 14269 of our transcript,

4 Mr. Manning said that these strips were not kept because his predecessor,

5 Mr. Jean Rene Ruez, decided to film them with a video camera. As an

6 expert in this field, would you agree that video recording or

7 photographing of fabric would not be the proper way to keep samples that

8 would make it possible for you to conduct tests on them?

9 A. Video recording is -- makes it impossible to run any further

10 tests because then you would have to have the textile material itself.

11 We kept from the textiles small pieces of fibre to examine them

12 microscopically, so if there was to be any more tests to be done, then

13 the NFI would still have the small amounts of fibres taken from the

14 textile materials.

15 Q. Were you ever consulted by Mr. Jean Rene Ruez if it was all right

16 to destroy certain samples of strips of fabric or pieces of clothing?

17 A. I was never consulted by any persons of the ICTY. Maybe --

18 shortly after I finished those examinations, I left the department. So

19 maybe other persons were consulted but I was not.

20 Q. Had you been asked about destroying strips of fabric or pieces of

21 fabric of clothing, would you have agreed with that, given your

22 permission?

23 A. I would have given my personal opinion what the implications

24 would be of destroying strips of fabric, and I would leave the decision

25 about destroying them with the ICTY.

Page 14497

1 Q. What would you have said when giving your personal opinion on

2 this matter?

3 A. I would have pointed out that when destroying the fabric no other

4 tests could be done or no second opinion would be possible.

5 Q. And would you agree with me that you did not examine any strips

6 of fabric other than those you identified and that you dealt with in your

7 written report?

8 A. I and my team only examined the strips of fabric that were

9 mentioned in the report, saying what items we received, so it's about

10 400 or so.

11 Q. Mr. Manning identified the anthropologists and archaeologists as

12 being the source of information about the origin or source of the

13 fabrics. Madam, in your work to determine the nature of the textiles and

14 the way you reach your conclusions on these samples, would that also

15 include archaeologists and anthropologists?

16 A. I made my results and I took the conclusion or I made the

17 conclusion based on the textile and fibre experience that I have and not

18 on any archaeological or anthropological way.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I seek clarification on one of the

20 previous answers?

21 MR. LUKIC: Of course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You said you and your team "only examined the strips

23 of fabric that were mentioned in the report, saying what items we

24 received, so it's about 400 or so." I did understand from your testimony

25 in chief that you made a selection of what samples you would more

Page 14498

1 thoroughly examine and compare, but you received far more than those that

2 were -- that underwent a very thorough examination. Do I understand that

3 you still kept small pieces of the -- all of the samples you received

4 even those which you did not examine in such detail as the ones you had

5 selected?

6 THE WITNESS: You are right, we only took small pieces of fibre

7 from the ones that we thoroughly examined.

8 JUDGE ORIE: But the other ones, is there anything left from

9 that, you said 400?

10 THE WITNESS: As far as I know now, as I recall, we did not take

11 any fibre samples of those.

12 JUDGE ORIE: But you received the original material, you took

13 some samples to examine thoroughly. What happened with the remainder?

14 Is there anything left out of the other, well, if we could say some 390

15 or a little bit less, that you received?

16 THE WITNESS: From the about 400, we saw macroscopically matching

17 textiles and from those we took extra fibre samples and from the other we

18 did not take any fibre samples and we gave them back to the ICTY without

19 taking fibre samples, as far as I can recall.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So from the large majority of the material you

21 received, nothing is left with the NFI at -- to your knowledge?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, nothing is left to my knowledge at the NFI.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

25 Q. [Interpretation] I would now like to move to your report.

Page 14499

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P1771 on our

2 monitors, please.

3 Q. Mrs. Maljaars, first of all I wanted to ask you this: This

4 report or any other report that you authorised for the needs of this

5 case, was it subjected to any kind of review by your colleagues or, as

6 it's described in English, was it subject to peer review?

7 A. Yes, it was. It was peer reviewed for the information about the

8 textile material and it was peer reviewed for my use of the English

9 language.

10 Q. When you say that it was subject to peer review, in terms of the

11 content, the material, and the text, could you please tell us who carried

12 out this review and what did it involve?

13 A. The peer review about the content was done by a co-worker at that

14 time and it involved everything, checking numbers, dates, conclusions,

15 anything that I wrote down concerning the investigations. The peer

16 review in English was carried out by a linguistic expert who had a

17 master's degree in English to see whether the terms and the sentences

18 that I used were good enough to work with.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you when you're talking about the peer

20 review by the co-worker, is that the same review as you told us about

21 yesterday?

22 THE WITNESS: It's part of the same review that I told yesterday.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Can we agree then that there was no peer review by anyone outside

Page 14500

1 of your lab?

2 A. Yes, that's correct. There was no peer review by someone outside

3 of the laboratory of the NFI.

4 Q. You said that one person conducted the review. Could you please

5 tell us when the review was completed?

6 A. The review of the investigations was completed just before I

7 submitted the report, so it must have been the beginning of

8 February 2000. And I would like to say it says on my screen "the review

9 of the investigations," that would be the investigations of the textiles

10 that's in the report.

11 Q. This person who conducted internal review, did they provide any

12 kind of written findings, critique, suggestions?

13 A. Yes, they did or she did. Sorry.

14 Q. And then is that part of this report or not?

15 A. No, those comments are not -- well, those -- we discussed the

16 comments that she made and I made some alterations in the report before

17 submitting.

18 Q. How many other reports have you prepared during your career,

19 during your work in this laboratory?

20 A. I have to give an estimate. I don't know, maybe a thousand.

21 Q. Did you provide your findings ever for outside peer review,

22 outside of your institute?

23 A. No, I have not.

24 Q. Thank you. I saw here in your work - and we see the first page

25 of it on our monitor - that you divided the samples that you worked on

Page 14501

1 into five groups. In the first group you described three pieces of

2 textile material -- I apologise, two pieces of textile material; in the

3 second group, three pieces; in the third group, two pieces; in the fourth

4 group, three pieces; and in the fifth group, six pieces. Is that the

5 total number of pieces of textile material that you processed and

6 analysed in the course of the entire process?

7 A. The textiles that you mentioned are the ones that were examined

8 more thoroughly based on macroscopical similarities between them.

9 Q. Then we will agree that only these textiles were tested for this

10 report?

11 A. No, all of the textiles were investigated and were described, and

12 only when a macroscopical similarity came up, those pieces of textiles

13 were examined on a microscopical way.

14 Q. When you say "investigated" and "described," [In English] "And

15 only when a macroscopical similarity came up, those pieces of textiles

16 were examined on a microscopical way."

17 [Interpretation] How did you establish microscopic similarity

18 unless you examined them under a microscope? Could you please clarify?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, is there any possible confusion --

20 MR. LUKIC: Might be --

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- where macroscopical is mixed up with

22 microscopical. I do understand that without using a microscope, just by

23 the bare eye, I take it that the --

24 MR. LUKIC: My mistake, obviously.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

Page 14502

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. A macroscopic examination, then, would be one that you did with

3 the bare eye and you did not examine those samples microscopically. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes, there is one addition to be made. A macroscopical

6 examination also includes a magnification of about ten times.

7 Q. From whom specifically did you get the samples? Was it from

8 Mr. Dean Manning?

9 A. The first batch of textile materials we received from Mr. Ruez,

10 and I think the second one was received from Mr. Dean Manning, although

11 the -- there may have been more persons with them at that time. But we

12 received them from Mr. Ruez and Mr. Manning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I read from yesterday's transcript:

14 "We received them from Mr. Ruez, Mr. Kruszewski and Mr. Manning,"

15 so to put the same question to the witness where even I remember --

16 MR. LUKIC: I missed that one.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

19 Q. [Interpretation] Ms. Maljaars, how did you establish the

20 provenance of each sample where told they had been found by someone else?

21 A. The provenance of each sample, meaning the origin of the sample,

22 was written on papers with codes -- individual codes of the textile

23 material that were in -- well, the batch that we received.

24 Q. You did not check the accuracy of this information yourself, nor

25 were you in a position to do so; is that right?

Page 14503

1 A. When those textiles were entered in the laboratory, they were

2 checked by me to see if all the textiles were there and that they had a

3 proper identification code on them.

4 Q. I probably didn't phrase my question well. I wanted to ask you

5 whether you checked, whether you were able to check, if a piece of fabric

6 actually came from a given location; in other words, you did not go to

7 the sites, correct?

8 A. No, I did not go to the sites.

9 Q. I would like to move on to page 8 of your report. It should also

10 be page 8 in e-court. Near the bottom of the page, that is, the third

11 line from the bottom, we read:

12 "B076.5 - ligature/blindfold."

13 Who decided if something was a blindfold or a ligature? Was it

14 you or the investigators who gave you the material?

15 A. It was done by the investigators that gave me the material and

16 the description that they provided us with is in the list that's on this

17 page.

18 Q. Just for the record let me ask you if this applies to all the

19 entries, wherever it says "ligature" or "blindfold"; is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. Let's go to page 11 of your report now. Here we see a

22 description of the procedure and you say there that a database was

23 formed. Was that database created in your institute?

24 A. Yes, it was and it was created by me.

25 Q. Who entered data in that database, you again?

Page 14504

1 A. Some of the data I entered and others were done by a co-worker.

2 Q. Can you tell me which data you entered?

3 A. No, I cannot.

4 Q. Don't you remember or is it -- is this classified information?

5 A. I don't remember. There were over 400 entries and I don't

6 know -- I don't recall which one I made or what was done by a co-worker.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one question, is it visible in the

8 database who --

9 THE WITNESS: No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- made the entries.

11 THE WITNESS: No. I can tell you something more about creating

12 the database, if you like.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I was just giving a follow-up question. If

14 Mr. Lukic is interested in it, he'll ask you.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 Q. Was there, or rather, did you use a special software or what was

17 the format of that database?

18 A. I used Microsoft Excel or Access, I can't remember which one of

19 them I made.

20 Q. Thank you. You told us how many items from each group were

21 examined microscopically. Who decided what would be examined and what

22 not?

23 A. I decided what to be examined and what not to be examined.

24 Q. On the exhibit list next to your name we see the Prosecution

25 exhibit, namely P27979.

Page 14505

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like for it to be displayed.

2 I'll have some questions about it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely is that a wrong number. An exhibit

4 number with the number P27979 would bring us somewhere in 2018,

5 Mr. Lukic.

6 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I think it's P1739 in this case.

7 MR. LUKIC: Thanks for your help. Let's try that one. That's

8 it. Thank you.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Was this document shown to you during the

10 proofing?

11 A. No.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please get page 3.

13 Q. Do you remember ever having seen this list? I don't mean to say

14 that you should have seen it, but were you involved in the creation of

15 this document in any way?

16 A. No, I wasn't.

17 MR. LUKIC: I know this will be a surprise for everybody, but

18 this answer shortens my cross-examination drastically and this is all we

19 had for this witness.

20 Q. Thank you, Ms. Maljaars. This is all we had for you. Thank you

21 for answering my questions.

22 A. You're welcome. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

24 Mr. Jeremy, any need to put questions in re-examination?

25 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours.

Page 14515

1 the witness will explain the reporting channels between the Main Staff

2 and its subordinate units and between the Main Staff and the supreme

3 commander. He will comment on the reporting procedures as well as

4 aspects of the information contained in daily combat reports.

5 He will explain what directives are, their significance, and the

6 process involved in their drafting. He will also give evidence about the

7 knowledge and involvement of the VRS Main Staff officers, including

8 Mladic, Miletic, and Tolimir and others in dealings with UNPROFOR and

9 approval and passage of humanitarian and UNPROFOR convoys through

10 VRS-held territory.

11 The witness will additionally comment on a range of orders and

12 reports emanating both from the Main Staff and from subordinate units on

13 various topics.

14 Q. Now, General, as you know, you've testified in a fair amount of

15 detail in the Tolimir case and a good part of that testimony is now in

16 evidence in this case. So I won't be going over that again in detail,

17 though I do want to bring up a couple of things.

18 And is it true that you first testified at this Tribunal as a

19 Defence witness called in the Miletic Defence in the Popovic et al. case?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then the Prosecution called you as a witness in the Tolimir

22 case?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then not so long ago, the Prosecution called you as a witness

25 in the Karadzic case?

Page 14516

1 A. Yes, in February of last year.

2 Q. And welcome back for hopefully your last time.

3 And I first want to provide something to the Court, it is exhibit

4 65 ter 25940. It is a line-and-block chart that is referred to in the

5 testimony and so I will not be going over it in detail, but I do want to

6 confirm with you that this is something that you have recently had a

7 chance to review and that you stand by its accuracy.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it may be easier to hand out the A3 size. I

9 did give one in Serbian to Mr. Lukic, but it's a good thing to have, I

10 think, for this witness, Mr. President. And Ms. Stewart has some copies.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If they could be distributed.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could blow that up a little bit and on

13 the staff sector which is over to the left side which, as we can see,

14 does include the administration for operations and training. Could we

15 get the General a copy as well. Yes, they've seen it, they've got it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a copy for Mr. Mladic as well or has he

17 received one? I have my B/C/S version.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: We do have an extra one for him. Mr. Lukic has

19 got his own.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I just want to make sure that there's one available

21 for the accused as well.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. And, General, as you -- do you recall me showing this to you

24 yesterday at our offices?

25 A. Yes.

Page 14517

1 Q. And -- and I think you had recalled earlier the name of the

2 67th Communications Regiment person which is blank in this diagram. Can

3 you tell us who that is?

4 A. Yes. When I was asked by Ms. Edgerton in the Karadzic case about

5 the organisations, I remembered the name of the commanding officer of the

6 communications regiment, that was Colonel Gredo.

7 Q. All right. Thank you for that. And otherwise, does this

8 document look accurate as to your recollection of helping create or fill

9 out the boxes for the Tolimir case?

10 A. Yes, it's identical.

11 Q. All right. And these -- we see these solid lines coming out of

12 General Mladic's box at the top. One swings around the whole unit and

13 goes down to the corps commanders and to the 10th Sabotage Unit and the

14 air force and anti-defence and military schools. What's the significance

15 of a solid line connecting General Mladic to these people and units?

16 A. The line implies subordination and superiority by the commander

17 of the Main Staff in relation to sectors of the Main Staffs and the

18 administrations and the subordinate units.

19 Q. And is this a direct connection between the commander and the

20 various people and units?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Meaning there's nobody or institution in between?

23 A. No, except if a unit had a reduced number of connections which

24 would be burning the command process, the commander would give those

25 duties to one of the professional organs.

Page 14518

1 Q. Right.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this exhibit into evidence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25940 receives number P1784,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: P1784 is admitted.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY:

8 Q. And as I've said, you've talked about these people and units in

9 detail, so I won't get into that. But just one thing, we see your

10 administration over here for operations and training. We see it as

11 headed by General Miletic, of course, with you as the chief of

12 operations. Can you tell us, by design and by - how do you say it? - how

13 many people really were supposed to be in an operations administration as

14 opposed to how many you actually had back in July of 1995?

15 A. By establishment on the basis of which this organisation was

16 established, the operations and training administration was supposed to

17 have 18 staff. And, in fact, the number of staff in the administration

18 was four: General Miletic, as the chief of the administration; myself,

19 as the chief of operations, and I was also General Miletic's deputy at

20 the same time; the chief of the training department, that was the late

21 Colonel Krsto Djeric; and there was also another lieutenant, Micanovic,

22 in my section who was a cartographer. So the staffing level was actually

23 approximately 20 per cent.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the name of the head of

25 the section for training, it's not clear if we have the right name on the

Page 14519

1 transcript. Krsto and what is his family name?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Krsto Djeric.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY:

5 Q. Was this understaffed problem that you had in your administration

6 a problem that was consistent within the entire Main Staff? Or was it

7 just your -- just operations?

8 A. This was a problem in all the sectors and administrations of the

9 Main Staff, and it featured also in the units because there was a

10 shortage of professional cadres. The staff sector that the

11 administration was a part of had the -- a staffing level of 36 per cent.

12 It was supposed to number 46 people, but actually the level of staffing

13 was 36 per cent.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I don't have any other questions on this,

16 if -- and we'll go on to another topic.

17 Q. General, you also spoke at length about reporting, reporting

18 procedures and such, and I would like just to go to a couple of examples

19 of some of the reports that came into and went out of the Main Staff.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could start with exhibit 65 ter 04035.

21 Q. And as we just look at that first page in both languages, we can

22 see that this is a report from the Main Staff to the president of the

23 Republika Srpska and the various corps and other units - I won't read

24 them out. And I don't think we need to go to the end, but we'll -- I

25 think all will agree that it's under the name of Major-General

Page 14520

1 Radoje Miletic, standing in for the Chief of Staff, which is something

2 you explained at length in your testimony what that meant.

3 So I would like to go -- as we see and as you've explained, this

4 is a report that goes to the president that talks about the situation in

5 each of the corps. And let's go to the Drina Corps.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should be on page 3 in the B/C/S and page 3 in

7 the English. There we go.

8 Q. And so we now see it entitled: "In the area of responsibility of

9 the Drina Corps ..."

10 It talks about the enemy. Can you remind us, just briefly, where

11 is the Main Staff getting this information from that it's sending on to

12 the president?

13 A. At the reporting organisation, subordinate units of the corps

14 supply their reports or submit their reports to the corps command by a

15 certain time of day. The corps command then collate all of those reports

16 into one report and then they send such a report from the corps to the

17 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska. Based on the reports

18 received from the corps commands, the anti-aircraft defence section and

19 the training schools, the Main Staff would compile a main report which

20 would then be addressed to the president and those persons who were

21 members of the supreme commands, those would be the vice-president, the

22 president of the Assembly, the prime minister, the defence minister, and

23 the minister of the interior. In order to inform subordinate units about

24 events in the whole theatre, we would send the reports also to the corps

25 commands, so in order to inform the subordinate units about the overall

Page 14521

1 situation in the theatre.

2 Q. And remind us who assembles all these reports and then creates

3 this report that gets sent to the president?

4 A. By establishment, that was the job of the administration for

5 operations and training which had an operations centre within it. That

6 operations centre was in charge of these assignments and it had a chief,

7 two shift leaders, and one operator who entered all the data. We didn't

8 have anyone and this operations centre did not function, and that is why

9 we in the operations department and the training department and

10 frequently we also used superior officers from the branches organ for

11 those jobs as well.

12 Q. Okay. Let's go to the -- I'm sorry, were you not finished?

13 A. And we would compile the reports from the corps and from the

14 other subordinate units and send it to the address that I -- to the

15 addresses that I referred to, such as the address of the president and

16 the rest.

17 Q. All right.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now I'd like to go to the next page in English,

19 it's section (b) in the B/C/S so that can stay where it is.

20 Q. And just to look at some of the examples of the kind of

21 information you would get and pass on. So we see here that it mentions

22 the Krivaja 95 task at the top of the page, it says:

23 "All the combat tasks are going ahead as planned. During the

24 day, they liberated Potocari, and they continued advancing in order to

25 liberate all the settlements in the Srebrenica enclave. On the ... axes,

Page 14522

1 part of our units and MUP units have organised ambushes in order to

2 destroy Muslim extremists who have not surrendered and who are trying to

3 break out from the enclave towards Tuzla."

4 Can you help us on this sentence beginning "on the ... axes."

5 That's an unknown word for the translators. So after it says "on

6 the ... axes," can you tell us what is being said there?

7 A. I'm not sure that I have the same report in front of me. With --

8 in my copy it says:

9 "In the Drina Corps from the Srebrenica enclave transport of the

10 population was organised towards Kladanj in the course of the day" --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "During the day about

13 10.000 Muslims are estimated for transport. In all the areas of

14 responsibility of the corps, the situation on the territory is stable and

15 under control. During the day in most populated areas, recruits were

16 being sent off to the army. All the planned and approved convoys passed

17 safely through RS territory."

18 MR. McCLOSKEY:

19 Q. Okay. I was -- that's okay, General. I was going to ask you

20 about that, but you've just got that out. So -- but it's -- the one I

21 was asking about to help us with the word is the paragraph up above.

22 It's -- should be under (b) for you. It starts "Krivaja 95" and there

23 was just a word in about the third sentence that we couldn't make out.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not clear if we have the right part in

25 B/C/S. Under (b) the heading is different or it's the second part of

Page 14523

1 that paragraph.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It's the second part of (b).

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, in the third line it starts with

4 "Krivaja 95."

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. That's correct.

6 Q. So if you could just read slowly where after "Krivaja 95

7 task ..."

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into

10 the microphone.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please speak in the microphone or

12 could the microphone be adjusted in such a way that the interpreters can

13 hear you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "During the day they liberated

15 Potocari and they continue advancing in order to liberate all of the

16 settlements in the Srebrenica enclave. On the estimated axes,"

17 "procenjenim," "part of our units and MUP units have organised ambushes

18 in order to destroy Muslim extremists who have not surrendered and who

19 are trying to break out from the enclave towards Tuzla" --

20 JUDGE ORIE: One second. There seems to be a practical problem.

21 The portion just read seems to be on the B/C/S version which is now

22 shown.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY:

24 Q. All right. And, General, is this the kind of information that

25 was normally sent off to the president?

Page 14524

1 A. The information was about the enemy, the situation in the field,

2 and the proposals from the corps for subsequent operations.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04035 receives number P1785,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

8 Could I ask one question in relation to this document. On page 3

9 in the B/C/S and 3 in the English, under 5, reference is made in B/C/S

10 which seems to be a corps referred to as HK, in the English as BK. Could

11 you tell us what corps that is?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is an

13 abbreviation for the Herzegovina Corps.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is not immediately clear from the English

15 translation. Yes, it's clear now. Please proceed.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. And, General, I'd like to go to a Drina Corps report to the

18 Main Staff, one of the daily reports on the next day, the 13th.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to 65 ter 04123.

20 Q. And I just want to call your attention to some information on

21 here and then go to the Main Staff to the president report and ask you

22 just a couple of questions. But the information to please focus on is we

23 see here in the third paragraph under "the enemy" that:

24 "The enemy from the former Srebrenica enclave are in total

25 disarray and have been surrendering to the VRS in great numbers."

Page 14525

1 Then if we go down to the section "situation in the zone of

2 responsibility," we see:

3 "The Corps zone of responsibility is under full control. So far

4 the transport of 15.000 Muslims from Potocari to Kladanj has been

5 organised.

6 "In Konjevic Polje and also in Nova Kasaba reception of Muslim

7 civilians and soldiers who surrender is being carried out taken in an

8 organised fashion ..."

9 Okay. And is this one of the reports that you were talking about

10 from the corps to the Main Staff that gets assembled by your unit and

11 then finds its way into the report to the president in some form?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04123 receives number P1786,

16 Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P1786 is admitted.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could go to 65 ter 04038, which should

19 be that Main Staff report to the president on the 13th of July. And if

20 we can again go to the Drina Corps section, which should be page 3 in the

21 English. It's noted as paragraph 6. And page -- same page 3. And we

22 can see it.

23 Q. And if you could just read that to yourself to see if we can find

24 the information that was in the Drina Corps report, and I'll help us a

25 bit as you're reading that because you may remember from the Drina Corps

Page 14526

1 report there was a paragraph that said "the enemy from the former

2 Srebrenica enclave are in total disarray and had been surrendering to the

3 VRS in great numbers ..."

4 And if we look at that first paragraph, we eventually see a

5 sentence in the current document, and I quote:

6 "The enemy from the former enclave of Srebrenica is in a state of

7 total disarray, and the troops are surrendering in large numbers to the

8 VRS ..."

9 And as we continue to look down, we -- I'll remind us that from

10 the Drina Corps report it noted that the:

11 "Corps zone of responsibility is under full control. So far the

12 transport of 15.000 Muslims from Potocari to Kladanj has been

13 organised ..."

14 And then in the Drina Corps report it goes on to say:

15 "In Konjevic Polje and also in Nova Kasaba, reception of the

16 Muslim civilians and soldiers who surrendered is being carried out taken

17 in an organised fashion."

18 In this Main Staff report to the president, I don't see anywhere

19 any reference to the surrender of Muslim civilians. That information is

20 not being passed on to the president that was received from the

21 Drina Corps. Can you -- I know you weren't there at the time, but can

22 you think of any reason why this information was left out of the report

23 that came to them in the Drina Corps report?

24 A. I can only speculate. Could this be scrolled down? Perhaps I

25 can see the initials of the one who wrote this?

Page 14527

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move to the last page of the document.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The initials of the person who

3 compiled the report are NT. I believe that stands for Nikola Trkonja

4 [as interpreted]. In the report of the Drina Corps, after the mention of

5 200 or 300 fighters there was an addition about Muslims. I don't know

6 why it was left out. In the paragraph about the situation in the

7 territory, in this report we see a mention of Kladanj and so on.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY:

9 Q. We heard that you said I think Niko Trkulja. Is it Niko or

10 Nedjo?

11 A. Actually, it's Nedeljko Trkulja. I correct myself.

12 Q. Thank you, General.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document in evidence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04038 receives number P1787,

16 Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P1787 is admitted.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY:

19 Q. Now, as a career JNA and VRS officer, were you familiar and are

20 you now familiar with what a directive is in the context of the VRS and

21 the RS?

22 A. A directive is a combat document about which I was taught and I

23 knew from the theory that prevailed in the former army. It's also the

24 same in the VRS. It's a combat document that emanates from high-ranking

25 commands. It regulates all essential matters in connection with the

Page 14528

1 planning and implementation of combat operations during a longer period

2 of time.

3 Q. And when you say upper echelons make these, who would that be in

4 the context of the VRS and RS?

5 A. In the VRS the Supreme Command is a high command and also the

6 command of the Main Staff. When I say "combat documents of high commands

7 and staffs," this is the meaning.

8 Q. And in some of the directives that are in this case, we have seen

9 General Mladic's signature, others such as Directive 7 the Court has seen

10 President Karadzic's signature. Do you know why that is?

11 A. Directive number 7 signed by President Karadzic was drafted after

12 an analysis was conducted of combat-readiness for the year 1994.

13 Q. General, I appreciate that and I -- this is a question I don't

14 know if you can answer, but do you know why some directives are signed by

15 Karadzic and others by Mladic? And we'll get a bit into Directive 7

16 after that.

17 A. This was only meant to be an introduction into the answer to your

18 question. The civilian leadership was involved in this analysis of

19 combat-readiness and the head of the civilian leadership was the supreme

20 commander. The first directive that ensued after that analysis was

21 signed by the supreme commander. Directive 7/1, although I wasn't

22 involved in drafting either, was signed by the commander of the

23 Main Staff because it was a directive concerning subsequent operations.

24 I believe that it was written in late March, on the 31st or so.

25 Q. And can you tell us what is the particular purpose for these

Page 14529

1 directives? And remind us, first of all, where the directive goes and

2 then what their purpose is.

3 A. A minute ago when I defined what a directive is, perhaps I should

4 explain. Directives include tasks and deal with matters that concern

5 corps. It's written for a longer period of time. It doesn't go much

6 into detail. Objectives are stated there. So that corps commands have a

7 kind of orientation about the tasks that are expected to follow through a

8 certain period and they can prepare in every way for what is stated in

9 the directive. Operations that are to be implemented at the level of the

10 army, including the involvement of the Main Staff, are mentioned there,

11 just as operations supposed to be implemented independently by corps

12 commands.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this would be a good time to

14 break.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break now.

16 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

17 We'll take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Obradovic.

18 [The witness stands down]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, are you on track as far as time is

20 concerned?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's good to hear.

23 We take a break and we'll resume at ten minutes past midday.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.50 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

Page 14530

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

2 Meanwhile, I use the opportunity for the following. The Defence

3 has submitted a request on the -- yesterday, on the 15th of July, for a

4 30-day extension to file its response to the Prosecution's 31st

5 92 bis motion on the basis of the length of the motion. The Prosecution

6 has indicated recently that it does not object to reasonable extensions,

7 and for that reason the Chamber hereby grants the Defence request and

8 sets a new dead-line of the 14th of August for filing a response.

9 [The witness takes the stand]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. General, in the past you've described that there's two methods in

13 putting together a directive, a full and an abbreviated. Could you

14 briefly explain to us the two methods.

15 A. The full method involves all staff organs, that is, sectors and

16 administrations. The abbreviated method does not involve all, hence the

17 name.

18 Q. Let's go to Directive 7, which is Exhibit P01469. And I know you

19 have talked about this before in I think all your testimonies. And can

20 you tell us, did you ever see this directive while you were at the

21 Main Staff?

22 A. I told you in the Miletic case that looking for some documents in

23 a cabinet when ordered to do so, I came across a document and took a

24 cursory look at it. It may have been in August 1995.

25 Q. And I think you said you were -- you found it in

Page 14531

1 General Miletic's strong-box or lock-box?

2 A. It was a metal cabinet and I took a cursory look because I had no

3 time to deal with it. My task was to fetch another document for Miletic.

4 Q. So whose lock-box or cabinet was this that you found the document

5 in?

6 A. I'm not sure now. It may have been the Chief of Staff's cabinet

7 or the cabinet of the entire staff sector, because it contained documents

8 of the training administration.

9 Q. All right.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's -- let's go to the next page in the

11 document. This is the letter that you will recall, Your Honours, that

12 went with the document that has always been attached on the front of it.

13 All right.

14 Q. Is this the Directive 7 that you've talked about before?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we go to the last page in both documents,

17 the signature page.

18 Q. And we can see that this was -- at the bottom it says:

19 "Drafted by: Colonel Radivoje Miletic.

20 "Typed by: Staff Sergeant Spasoja Zeljkovic."

21 We know who Miletic is. This Staff Sergeant Zeljkovic, what unit

22 was he assigned to at this time?

23 A. Staff Sergeant Spasoja Zeljkovic was in the establishment

24 structure of the logistics sector.

25 Q. And the logistics -- in the logistics sector, that was Djukic's

Page 14532

1 sector?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, based on your knowledge of Directive 7, was it

4 put together in the full method by all the organs or the abbreviated

5 method?

6 A. Based on its structure and layout, I think that the full method

7 was used.

8 Q. All right. And can you describe for us in brief, as you did in

9 Tolimir, the process of doing this? You may recall in Tolimir you said

10 that General Mladic started the proceedings and then heard from various

11 people. Is that correct?

12 A. This specific directive, having been written soon after the

13 analysis of combat-readiness for the previous year, all those involved in

14 that analysis, especially corps commanders, made proposals in the

15 conclusion about the tasks for the subsequent period. The leadership and

16 the Supreme Command, as well as the Main Staff, must have spoken about

17 it, must have discussed it, and defined the relevant tasks in accordance

18 with the situation in the theatre of war. Based on that, the individual

19 sectors continued to further elaborate their respective fields or parts

20 of the directive.

21 Q. And when you say "leadership" - let me interrupt for a

22 second - do you include General Mladic in that?

23 A. To my surprise, the commander of the Main Staff was not a member

24 of the Supreme Command, but it's a fact nonetheless. The Supreme Command

25 comprised the president of the republic, the vice-presidents, the prime

Page 14533

1 minister, the president of the Assembly, the minister of defence, and the

2 minister of the interior.

3 Q. Yes, General, we understand that. What was General Mladic's

4 involvement in the Directive 7, the process of creating the directive?

5 A. I don't know about Directive 7 because I wasn't present and I

6 don't know the methodology. If we're to speak about Directive 7/1 signed

7 by him, then it would have been -- would have had to be him who approved

8 the parts put together by the sectors.

9 Q. General, we can see that this document was drafted by Mladic's

10 chief of operations and training and the Court has seen this document and

11 has seen the various contributions that have gone into it. Based on your

12 knowledge of how the Main Staff worked, what would General Mladic's role

13 have been in the creation of this document?

14 A. I can only repeat that I don't know about this directive

15 number 7, but I can suppose what his role was with regard to

16 Directive 7/1 signed by him. I don't know who was involved in drafting

17 this directive here. In the heading we saw "Supreme Command" or "supreme

18 commander" and it was signed by the president.

19 Q. Was the Main Staff involved in this document in any way?

20 A. I assume so because the Supreme Command and the civilian

21 leadership did not have the professional staff to cover all of the

22 segments of the directive. So the participation of the organs or the

23 sectors and administrations of the Main Staff was inevitable. As for

24 specific people from which sector, which administration, that's something

25 that I don't know except for what I read at the bottom, Zeljkovic and

Page 14534

1 Miletic and the president who signed.

2 Q. Let's go to something you said in the -- I believe it was the

3 Popovic case, 65 ter 29092, e-court page 39. And I'll read the question.

4 I say:

5 "Thank you. General, I am just trying to get a -- what should be

6 the normal path of this directive," and that would be Directive 7,

7 "before it gets finally signed off by Karadzic. So if Milovanovic is

8 there, you say he's a stickler for detail, he wants to see it. Would

9 Mladic want to see it as well if he was there before it goes to the

10 president, or would he see it under the rules that you were living by?"

11 And your answer was:

12 "According to procedure, General Miletic should have shown the

13 proposal of the directive to the commander, if the Chief of Staff was not

14 there, before sending it off to Karadzic."

15 Then I ask:

16 "Okay. And if the Chief of Staff was there, and he showed it to

17 the Chief of Staff, will it still be seen by Mladic, in your view, under

18 the way the procedures -- and you know General Mladic better than we do."

19 Your answer was:

20 "According to procedure, the Chief of Staff would be duty-bound

21 to show it to General Mladic of course, yes."

22 Do you stand by that -- those answers?

23 A. Generally speaking, yes, when we're talking about the methodology

24 of the work I stand by that and the responsibilities of the superiors

25 towards the work of their subordinates. As for what really happened is

Page 14535

1 something that I can only speculate about, though, because I was not

2 present.

3 Q. All right. Let's go on to another subject, brief subject. You

4 may remember Miletic's lawyer Nenad Petrusic asking you that when you

5 were at the Main Staff on the 17th of July, whether Miletic said anything

6 to you about a job for Trkulja, do you remember that and your response to

7 Mr. Petrusic?

8 A. I don't know if it was about Trkulja or about a group. He told

9 me that pursuant to the commander's order he sent some senior officers to

10 the Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility I think because of some

11 situation that was unclear.

12 Q. And to be clear, who told you this, the commander had sent senior

13 officers to the Zvornik area?

14 A. General Miletic told me that pursuant to a task set by the

15 commander he sent Trkulja. I asked about somebody and he said he went on

16 an assignment to the Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility.

17 Q. And was this on the 17th, your first day back?

18 A. It's possible. I don't know exactly.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 29091, e-court 65.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is this still the same subject, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I've got off Directive 7, if --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Because you asked the witness whether he remembered

23 something he said in another case. And then to -- what's -- the question

24 was what the response was. And then the question is about whether it was

25 him or a group and that "pursuant to the commander's order he sent some

Page 14536

1 senior officers to the Zvornik Brigade ... of responsibility." To say

2 that it's quite clear to me at this moment, no, it's not.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And it's not -- it is not clear, that's why I'm

4 going to the record to try to clear it up.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So the record is about the same matter --

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes -- this is --

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's why I was --

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, yes, this -- we are on the same

9 subject to try to clear this up.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I asked you.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY:

14 Q. All right. And we would start at line 7 and Mr. Petrusic says --

15 sorry, let's start at line 4.

16 "Q. And what about General Milovanovic, was he there at the

17 General Staff at the time?"

18 And your answer is:

19 "On the 17th, no, he was not."

20 The next question is:

21 "Could you please answer the previous question and tell us what

22 General Miletic told you about Colonel Trkulja upon your arrival in the

23 Main Staff?"

24 And you were talking about on the 17th. And you say:

25 "He told me that he had sent him together with some other

Page 14537

1 officers of the Main Staff upon the order of the commander of the

2 Main Staff to the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade."

3 So does this refresh your recollection?

4 A. Yes. I said that he told me because I was actually inquiring

5 about Trkulja, and he told me that pursuant to an order by the commander

6 he sent him to the Zvornik Brigade because of some unclear situation.

7 Q. And you inquired about Trkulja, the -- that first day you got

8 back; correct?

9 A. In the afternoon, when I arrived.

10 Q. On the 17th of July?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. All right. One last short topic, I hope. I -- you

13 have spoken at length about the convoy requests as you received them from

14 UNPROFOR and others, General Mladic's role in that, and you were -- and

15 you've identified his initials on certain documents. I want to show you

16 one more of these.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's exhibit 65 ter 19040. And here we see the

18 cover page of a document from the Main Staff dated 31 March 1995, and it

19 lists 14 separate convoy requests from UNPROFOR requesting the Main Staff

20 to approve them. And let's now go to -- it should be in the original

21 B/C/S, e-court 13, and 16 in the English.

22 Q. And like I've done many times before, can I direct your

23 attention ...

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think Ms. Stewart just spotted it. In the

Page 14538

1 English it goes from 7 to 9, that should be obviously an 8. But this

2 handwriting that we see in the document, the original document on the

3 left, could that be blown up a bit.

4 Q. And do you recognise that initial?

5 A. Yes, these are General Mladic's initials.

6 Q. And what's the circled word next to his initials?

7 A. It says "no," meaning not approved.

8 Q. All right. And you've explained this system and what this means

9 in the transcript, so I don't think - unless the Court has any

10 questions - I will go through that.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: But I would offer that whole packet of materials

12 into evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19040 receives number P1788,

15 Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P1788 is admitted into evidence.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

19 Is the Defence ready to start its cross-examination?

20 MR. LUKIC: I just need one minute to organise myself.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 Mr. Obradovic, you will be cross-examined by Mr. Lukic.

23 Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] General Obradovic, good day.

Page 14539

1 A. Good day.

2 Q. You have already heard this before. We spoke the same language,

3 so can I please ask you to pause between question and answer for the

4 interpretation. We need to cover a lot. I will try to make my questions

5 as concise as possible and I kindly ask you to make your answers the

6 same.

7 I'm going to make a small introduction and ask you: How did it

8 come about that in the JNA, before the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, it

9 was mostly the Serbs that were in the army? In other words, did anybody

10 force the non-Serbs in the JNA to leave the army?

11 A. Nobody forced anyone to do anything. The political leaderships

12 of Slovenia and Croatia and then of the HDZ and the SDA in Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina in support of the idea of secession of the two northern

14 republics, Slovenia and Croatia, and pursuant to the concept of

15 Franjo Tudjman to create a Serbo-Communist or a Serbo-Chetnik army

16 influenced the population of their own ethnic groups not to respond to

17 the summonses to mobilisation and encourage the recruits not to go to the

18 units where they were supposed to report to, and that is why the ethnic

19 structure of the Yugoslav People's Army was disrupted, which always had a

20 certain number of percentages set according to the percentages of

21 specific ethnic groups within the federal state.

22 Q. Well, now I would like to move to the war years and I would like

23 to ask you that when you were in the Krajina, what was the situation

24 therein? In which sector of the Krajina front were you?

25 A. If you're thinking of 1994, I went pursuant to a request by the

Page 14540

1 Chief of Staff who left to go there about a month before that, or rather,

2 when the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from the Bihac

3 enclave and the Cazin Krajina made two deep incursions towards Krupa na

4 Uni and to the south towards Skender Vakuf. And that was the reason for

5 the commander of the Main Staff to order that a forward command post

6 should be organised, headed by his deputy, in order to stabilise the

7 situation in that sector of the front.

8 Q. At that time was Bihac a safe zone or a protected zone?

9 A. Yes, one of many.

10 Q. And did the Bosnia and Herzegovina army launch any actions from

11 that area, from the protected zones?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And can we conclude then that Bihac was not demilitarised? Our

14 legal questions might sometimes seem superfluous, but this is for the

15 sake of the transcript.

16 A. Well, no, it was not because the units from that sector, from

17 Bihac, made incursions and created attacks and incidents directed at

18 positions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

19 Q. At that time was there any fighting in the Bihac part of Bosnia

20 and Herzegovina between the opposing Muslim forces?

21 A. At that time this inter-Muslim conflict was going on between the

22 forces of the 5th Corps of the B&H Army and forces headed by well-known

23 politician Fikret Abdic, who organised the autonomous province centred on

24 his birthplace of Kladusa where there was also an industrial facility

25 that he managed.

Page 14541

1 Q. Thank you. We're now going to move to a different topic. I'm

2 going to ask you something about the situation when the commander of the

3 Main Staff is absent. In the event that the commander of the Main Staff

4 is not at the Main Staff, who would replace him? Who would stand in for

5 him?

6 A. In the absence of the commander at the Main Staff, his deputy by

7 establishment would stand in for him if he is present, that is, the chief

8 of the sector for staff affairs, Lieutenant-General Manojlo Milovanovic.

9 Q. And if General Milovanovic is not there either, who would take up

10 these duties then? Who decides who would replace him?

11 A. If the chief of the staff sector was absent as well, then before

12 he would leave, the commander of the Main Staff would allocate one of his

13 assistants to do that job. That could be the chief of the morale, legal,

14 and religious affairs, chief of logistics, chief of the organisational,

15 mobilisation, and personnel affairs, or chief of the intelligence and

16 security sector; or if none of them were present, then it would be the

17 chief of the administration for anti-aircraft defence or of the other

18 independent administration, that would be the chief of the administration

19 for plans, development, and finances. So these are the chiefs of sectors

20 who at the same time are assistants to the commander, and then the

21 commander would allocate one of them to replace him. And if all of them

22 were not there, then that would be the duty of the Chief of Staff.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly look at 1D1132.

24 Q. This is your testimony from the Tolimir case.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we get a list when you can send it to

Page 14542

1 us.

2 MR. LUKIC: You didn't receive a list?

3 [Interpretation] Page 11 in e-court, please.

4 Q. When the commander of the Main Staff leaves the RS, what is the

5 situation like? I'll read it out for us starting from line 15. The

6 Prosecutor asked you a question. I'll read it out your answer in

7 English.

8 [In English] "And how was the term 'absent' defined? We -- for

9 example, we see General Mladic going to Serbia, going to Belgrade. Would

10 that be considered an absence or would he still be the commander in full

11 command and Milovanovic would still be Chief of Staff?

12 "A. He would temporarily stand in for the commander during the

13 commander's absence."

14 [Interpretation] I'll get back to the question itself, but first

15 tell me if it is true that nobody can be commander in a situation when

16 communication is not possible. In other words, is it a requirement that

17 any commander wishing to exercise command must have means of

18 communication?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: This subject context is crucially important.

21 Could the next two questions and answer also be read to the victim -- the

22 victim, the witness so that we can nail down this term "absent" a bit

23 better.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps we read the next questions as

25 well.

Page 14543

1 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, I will.

2 "Q. Would going to Serbia be considered absent?

3 "A. It doesn't depend on the whereabouts of the commander but it

4 depends on the duration of absence."

5 Q. [Interpretation] I wanted to do this later, but now I've read it

6 and we have it on the record. So let me ask you if it's a requirement

7 that a person capable of exercising command must have means of

8 communication available?

9 A. Yes. Mobile communications centres are organised for commanders

10 to enable them to exercise command while moving.

11 Q. Without these means of communication, the commander cannot

12 exercise command and the same goes for command and control documents;

13 right?

14 A. Yes. The abbreviation for that is TKT, classified command

15 documents.

16 Q. All right.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, since it has been read ...

18 Witness, you said:

19 "It doesn't depend on the whereabouts of the commander but it

20 depends on the duration of absence."

21 What duration would result in temporarily standing in by the

22 deputy?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in previous trials I

24 explained the procedure. If anybody for reasons of physical absence or

25 illness would be uncapable of exercising command, then the superior

Page 14544

1 commander would issue an order about who stands in for that person. The

2 other person appointed in that order - and usually it's the superior

3 officer - assumes all rights and obligations that go with that position.

4 Also that --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that person gets all the rights

7 that go with the status in the new position.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked you during what would be the period of

9 the duration of the absence which would trigger this formal being

10 replaced? Would it be half -- a day, two days, a week, one hour?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A week or more, to my mind, because

12 if somebody leaves for a day, standing in for the commander is reduced to

13 become present in the command of the staff because the one standing in,

14 because of his position in the establishment or pursuant to a decision by

15 the commander, that person is responsible for order and discipline and

16 the organisation of work inside the staff but has no right to take

17 decisions or issue orders. The deputy in establishment -- in the

18 establishment structure can but only following an approval of the

19 commander himself.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And that would then be by remote communication?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said a deputy in the establishment

23 structure can, but only following an approval of the commander of

24 himself. Would that -- approval obtained from a distance or would it be

25 approved before the commander left, or both?

Page 14545

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You misunderstood me. The deputy

2 in the establishment structure can issue an order that is in keeping with

3 the spirit of an earlier decision made by the commander but cannot make

4 new decisions.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore the commander who was absent still is

6 in command although his deputy being present would follow-up on any

7 earlier decisions taken by the commander; is that how I have to

8 understand it?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. For a deputy to stand in for the commander, no written order or

13 notice is required; right? General Mladic could simply call

14 General Milovanovic and tell him, "I'm leaving for Belgrade. Now you

15 take over"?

16 A. Yes, but if the absence exceeds the duration that I stated, then

17 an order about standing in will be issued and then the deputy will have

18 all the -- the same authority as the commander.

19 Q. And if the absence is shorter than seven days, a written order is

20 not required?

21 A. No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But if I understand you well, during such a shorter

23 absence, the deputy who takes over temporarily, short period of time,

24 could not - as you told us - decide but only could follow-up on decisions

25 earlier taken by the commander. Is that well understood?

Page 14546

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you ever hear General Mladic -- did you hear from colleagues

5 upon your return to the Main Staff in July 1995 that the prisoners from

6 Srebrenica were being killed?

7 A. No, not until this day.

8 Q. During the war, the superior officer is duty-bound to control the

9 work of his subordinates; however, was it easy to replace persons at that

10 time if they were making mistakes as subordinates?

11 A. If I understood your question correctly, in both peace and war

12 the superior officer is duty-bound to monitor the work of his

13 subordinate. And when the Prosecutor asked me and I spoke about the

14 share in percentages, I had -- I replied that we had problems with

15 staffing at all levels. And if you were to punish someone by removing

16 him from his position, then you would have to bring in someone new and

17 you don't have anybody.

18 Q. Were there problems with reporting in writing during the war? I

19 mean the quality of the reports and I'll show you some documents.

20 A. In my previous testimonies, I also spoke about this when asked.

21 There were many inaccuracies in reporting. Sometimes that was a

22 consequence of the poor qualifications of the personnel at lower levels

23 and sometimes it would be the result of the intentions of a commander to

24 hide his responsibility for something.

25 Q. Do give us an example.

Page 14547

1 A. Here's an example for such intention. In 1994, when I joined the

2 Main Staff, it was in October, Lieutenant Boro Djurdjevic, who hails from

3 the area south of Teslic, came to the Main Staff and met me there. Since

4 I had come from that area on the 1st of September, I asked him what was

5 new back home. And he started listing that everything had been taken,

6 Vucja Glava, Banici, Djukici, and other villages. And I replied that it

7 wasn't right for him to spread misinformation because only the previous

8 evening I was writing a report for the Supreme Command and I never found

9 such information in the report received from the 1st Krajina Corps. He

10 pointed out that he was speaking in all seriousness.

11 I informed General Miletic of that. After a short while he

12 summoned me to the office of the Chief of Staff where he was. And he

13 demanded that I repeat the same in the presence of General Milovanovic.

14 When I did, General Milovanovic called General Tolimir and asked him if

15 he had any information along his own professional lines. The reply was

16 negative. He called the chief of security of the 1st Krajina Corps on

17 the phone. It was Colonel Stevo Bogojevic. He asked him if that

18 information was true. The other replied that it was. When

19 General Tolimir told him to write a report in our presence, he replied,

20 "I can't. But why? Because of the commander."

21 That's an example for the intention to hide something for fear of

22 being reprimanded. Every once in a while we sent out letters to

23 subordinate commands complaining of the poor quality of the reports we

24 were receiving from them.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 25928 from the Prosecution

Page 14548

1 list, please.

2 Q. We see that this is a document of the Main Staff of the VRS from

3 June 1993, signed by Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic, Chief of Staff.

4 He orders:

5 "1. Send combat reports daily ... as regulated before.

6 "2. Before combat reports are sent, they must be checked and

7 signed by the Commander ..."

8 And then:

9 "3. Keep combat reports brief, clear, meaningful, in accordance

10 with the established standards of military terminology ..."

11 This was in 1993. Did that problem persist later, 1994/1995?

12 A. Yes.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this

14 document. [In English] Your Honour, we would offer this document into

15 evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25928 receives number D331,

18 Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

20 Mr. Lukic, we are close to the point where we take a break --

21 well, we'll take a break and we -- I do understand Mr. Mladic wants to be

22 excused from the courtroom.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness already be escorted out of

25 the courtroom.

Page 14550

1 --- Recess taken at 1.14 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

4 We'll continue. Mr. Mladic has waived explicitly his right to be present

5 for this last session this morning.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Could we look at 1010 in e-court, please.

10 JUDGE MOLOTO: What is 1010, Mr. Lukic? Is that an ID number --

11 a 1D number or is it a 65 ter number?

12 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, I'm reading the wrong number from Popovic

13 trial. We need 65 ter 25929.

14 Q. [Interpretation] As you yourself told us, this document from 1994

15 indicates that once again the poor utility of regular combat reports is

16 being pointed to and it also states here that it's a warning, where

17 Major-General Milovanovic, the Chief of Staff, warns -- actually, it's

18 not clear to me. I can see the 2nd Krajina Corps and then again the

19 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the Herzegovina Corps,

20 the Drina Corps --

21 A. At the beginning there is item 1 -- actually, at the beginning it

22 says 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, so the 1st and the 2nd Krajina Corps are

23 here.

24 Q. That is precisely the clarification that I was seeking from you.

25 And based on the content of this document, is it true that the complaint

Page 14551

1 is still about the poor use of regular combat reports?

2 A. Yes, that was a constant complaint.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25929 receives number D332,

7 Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. In connection with your stay in the Krajina, if you were to

11 receive an order from General Milovanovic and if he would not be there,

12 did you report back to Miletic instead of to Milovanovic, and did

13 General Milovanovic ask you to visit General Miletic and report directly

14 to him?

15 A. My status at the forward command post of the Main Staff was of a

16 temporary nature, lasting for as long as the forward command post was

17 there. So in that position I was directly subordinated to

18 General Milovanovic in terms of the execution of those assignments, but

19 by establishment and status-wise my immediate superior was still

20 General Miletic.

21 Q. For the transcript I just wanted to record a part of your

22 testimony from the Tolimir case and then I wanted to put a question to

23 you.

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's 1D1132. Could we look at

25 page 20, please, bottom of the page, line 24.

Page 14552

1 Q. I will be reading in English again and you will receive

2 translation. Actually, I will begin from line 20 so that we can also see

3 the question.

4 [In English] "Q. If you were given a task by, for example,

5 Milovanovic when Miletic was absent, would you be reporting back to

6 General Miletic, and would he be monitoring your work even though

7 Milovanovic had given you the order?

8 "A. In practice, when the second in command issues a task, I

9 proceed to carry the task out, but I have to report to my immediate

10 superior as to what kind of task I had been given by the second in

11 command or the second superior. There were lots of problems with writing

12 reports. For example, General Milovanovic wanted me to give him reports,

13 bypassing General Miletic. And the other officers were the same. They

14 were not subordinated to Miletic. In other words, General Milovanovic

15 would be the one to inspect such reports and sign them.

16 "Q. But did you go through Miletic as the -- what you've

17 identified as the proper order, proper chain of following those orders?

18 "A. However, if he was not present physically and if priority

19 and speed were required, then I would go directly to the person who had

20 issued the order in the first place."

21 [Interpretation] So other officers as well followed this

22 sequence?

23 A. I think that things are a little bit mixed up here. I was at the

24 forward command post in a kind of resubordinated status to my

25 second-ranking superior, but it was an operational kind of task. So I

Page 14553

1 didn't have any need to keep calling on the telephone and ask to talk to

2 my first immediate superior and tell him I am sending a report from the

3 forward command post or I toured such and such a unit. But generally in

4 practice, according to the rules that we followed, if I receive an

5 assignment directly from the second superior in line, I have to report to

6 him but I have to report to my immediate superior what task I got that

7 did not come from him. But this is something that would not prevent me

8 from carrying out such an assignment.

9 And here specifically reports are mentioned. We wrote reports,

10 Krsto Djeric and I, we were directly subordinated to General Miletic.

11 But these chiefs of combat arms also wrote reports from the combat arms

12 administration but they were not subordinated to Miletic but they were

13 directly subordinated to General Milovanovic.

14 Q. I would now like to ask you something about the 65th Protection

15 Regiment.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at 65 ter 25930 in

17 e-court, please.

18 Q. This is a document by the command of the 65th Motorised

19 Protection Regiment of the 23rd of December, 1993. The heading is:

20 "Writing of regular combat reports, order." It's signed by the commander

21 of the regiment. At that time that was Major Savcic; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the document states:

24 "Based on a verbal order by the chief of the Main Staff of the

25 Army of Republika Srpska," that's General Milovanovic; is that right?

Page 14554

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. "... on writing regular combat reports, in future, regular

3 reports will not be written but the regiment Chief of Staff will call

4 Colonel Miletic on the telephone. And every day at 0800 hours and at

5 1900 hours on extension 277 the report will be given verbally on issues

6 pertaining to the regular combat report."

7 Was the practice adopted then for the protection regiment not to

8 send in written combat reports anymore?

9 A. Well, this is probably a consequence of the fact that the

10 regiment command was directly at the location where the Main Staff was.

11 It was engaged for security. It was of different composition so that

12 writing and coding the report would create an even more difficult

13 situation for the encryption personnel. So the Chief of Staff probably

14 wanted to ease their duties a little bit so that the Chief of Staff of

15 the regiment was then supposed to call in and speak to General Miletic

16 every day on extension 277 for that reason.

17 As for the way a report should be written, well, this is an order

18 by Colonel Savcic for his men.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25930 receives number D333,

22 Your Honours.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

24 Mr. Lukic, when you earlier, transcript page 59, line 10,

25 referred to 1D1132, where you read part of it, for those following the

Page 14555

1 proceedings at a later stage that what you read is also found in P1783,

2 which is the 92 ter materials of this witness.

3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, but --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 MR. LUKIC: -- I composed my questions before I had these

6 excerpts so I was not sure --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

8 MR. LUKIC: -- whether I would have it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where you didn't oppose admission of it, so

10 therefore it shouldn't have come as a surprise. But it's just to make

11 life easier for those who will read the transcript later.

12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] General, you explained today that you didn't

16 have an operations centre at the Main Staff?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You explained who actually did that, and we agreed that finally

19 the reports coming from the corps ended up in General Milovanovic's

20 hands?

21 A. Yes, for him to sign.

22 Q. However, when General Milovanovic was in Krajina - in other

23 words, he was absent from the Main Staff - we often saw that next to the

24 signature there was the remark "for," that is, somebody else signed for

25 him. Do you know whether General Milovanovic ever corrected those

Page 14556

1 reports because he found some irregularities?

2 A. When I had just arrived, I noticed that the combat arms organ or

3 somebody else would submit reports that were returned because of

4 grammatical errors and so on. So I strove to write the reports as

5 accurately and well as possible so that after a while when he saw that my

6 reports were mostly all right, he didn't pay so much attention to these

7 things anymore. Apart from that, in the signature block there was also

8 the remark "standing in for." I explained that earlier and how it came

9 about because General Miletic never stood in for the Chief of Staff when

10 he was in a territory controlled by the VRS.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could I just -- to clarify -- I think your

13 question was based on "standing in," "zastupa," as opposed to "for."

14 Because his answer referred to "standing in" --

15 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but my question was "for."

16 Q. [Interpretation] In a situation when it was -- when

17 General Milovanovic's name was stated before "standing in for" and in

18 front of General Milovanovic's name there was the word "for," and in case

19 such a letter was sent out by fax or telefax or --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. -- or by telex, you could only see the typed name of

23 General Milovanovic; right?

24 A. Yes, you're right. The remark "for" and the signature of the

25 person were for authenticating that document. But the communications

Page 14557

1 operator who typed that letter to be sent by telex, for example, would

2 only type the name without the signature itself.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps it's an interpretation

4 problem. Your last question, page 33, line 25, and the beginning of

5 page 64 -- oh, I said "page 33," that was wrong, page 63. It seems to be

6 that there is a mixture now of "standing in for" and "for." Can you

7 please clarify with the witness. In my view there is a difference

8 between the two.

9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from that, could you assist me, Mr. Lukic,

11 by giving the page number for where the standing in is explained because

12 I can't find it that quickly in this not-searchable copy. The witness

13 referred to it in his previous testimony.

14 MR. LUKIC: It was my question so I don't have it in front of me.

15 I was asking "for."

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know that, but since the witness testified

17 about his previous testimony explaining "standing in," I would like to

18 have a possibility to look at it and I can't find it.

19 MR. LUKIC: I can give it to you tomorrow when we continue.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's okay.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Now, about the signature block, when it says "for," that also

23 applied in case of the signature of General Mladic, often a telefax would

24 feature General Mladic's name. Was anybody in the position to sign a

25 document in his stead --

Page 14558

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: This continues to confuse the distinction between

5 "for" and "standing in," because that sounds like you're making a

6 reference to the "standing in" and calling it a "for." Each of these

7 documents is different, I think the meanings are different, and this is

8 just confusing it further.

9 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry if I am confusing anybody. It wasn't my

10 intention. I'm only dealing with the version "for." I'm not dealing

11 with "standing in."

12 JUDGE ORIE: That is at least a clear statement. Now see what

13 happens.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Is it true that General Mladic was often absent from the

16 Main Staff because he went to various locations on the front line?

17 A. In other words, the general --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the document reads:

20 Colonel-General or Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic and then there's the

21 handwritten remark "for" as well as the signature of the person

22 authorised to act in that manner during a certain period, whereas the

23 other party in the communication only receives a typed copy of the

24 document without the handwritten signature of General Mladic.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 14559

1 Q. Thank you. This clarifies this matter now. Now tell us whether

2 it's true whether -- that General Mladic often was absent from the

3 Main Staff to visit various locations on the front line?

4 A. Yes, he often wanted to see for himself what the situation was

5 like in some places. He chose those places himself.

6 Q. We only have a few minutes left. Let us speak about directives

7 now. Directive 7 and 7/1, you were asked about them by the Prosecutor

8 today. Is it true that a directive is both military and a political

9 document?

10 A. It's true because the first item of the directive contains a

11 description of the military political situation.

12 Q. You were never involved in the drafting of any directive?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You mean -- what do you mean by "no"?

15 A. I was never involved in the drafting of any directive, not one of

16 a total of eight or nine that were drafted in the VRS.

17 Q. Is it true that parts of directive are implemented at a

18 subsequent time and other parts never?

19 A. In a directive, tasks and objectives are set very ambitiously.

20 It is normal that as a consequence a substantial part is never

21 implemented. And when a subsequent directive is drafted, then a part of

22 a previous directive can be taken over.

23 Q. Speaking about which, let me ask you that if a part of

24 Directive 4 has -- is not implemented but not included in Directive 5, is

25 it still valid?

Page 14560

1 A. Whenever a new directive is issued, the previous directive is no

2 longer in force.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P1469, please, that's Directive 7.

4 Could we have it on our screens.

5 Q. This is the cover letter, followed by the directive as you saw.

6 I would like to deal with page 17 in B/C/S and page 10 in English. The

7 difference is due to many blank pages in the original. We're always

8 interested in the parts where the Drina Corps is mentioned. Here at the

9 beginning it says:

10 "Enemy breakthroughs along selected operative tactical lines

11 should be prevented by extremely persistent and active defence in

12 co-operation with [indiscernible] the forces," et cetera.

13 Do you know that Krivaja 95 was an operation of the Drina Corps

14 and that there was no link-up with the forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija

15 Corps?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In keeping with that, is it also true, since it was their

18 operation, that the command of the Drina Corps was able to decide to

19 implement that operation the way it thought best fit?

20 A. A directive only states which operation should be implemented,

21 whereas planning is in the remit of the corps command, and that includes

22 the ways of reaching an objective.

23 Q. Thank you, General. We're at the end of today's hearing. We'll

24 have to continue tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. We will conclude for the day,