130820IT

Page 15308

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by

2 the solemn declaration you've given yesterday. That is that you will

3 tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Mr. Ivetic

4 will now continue his cross-examination.

5 Mr. Ivetic.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

8 Q. Good morning, sir.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. I'd like to now ask you something about the so-called secondary

11 mass graves in this case. First of all, am I correct that in relation to

12 the secondary graves, the information that the Prosecution has from its

13 investigation is that these graves were dug in the time period of

14 September and October of 1995?

15 A. Yes, correct.

16 Q. And if we could now take a look together at P1481 in e-court and

17 if we can have a look at page 7 of this document, and, sir, first of all

18 I ask if you are familiar with this map or the information that is

19 depicted therein.

20 A. Yes, I am.

21 Q. And if we can focus for a moment on the green dots, would you

22 agree with me that the green dots are, in fact, these -- most of these

23 secondary graves that we have been talking about?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. Now, in terms of the path taken by the Bosnian Muslim column

Page 15309

1 leaving Srebrenica in July of 1995, and the places of known combat or

2 ambush engagements experienced by that column, would you agree with me

3 that the green dots depicting the sites of secondary graves are located

4 nearby, within several kilometres of the sites where the column

5 encountered combat or ambush engagements?

6 A. Yes, some of them, yes, but not all of them. Those on the north

7 part of the map, they would be close to those sites, yes.

8 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, in the Popovic case, you were asked about

9 assessments given by various sources for the combat casualties that were

10 suffered by the Bosnian Muslim column that left Srebrenica for Tuzla in

11 July of 1995. Do you recall that one of the items that you were

12 presented with were some statements of Bosnian Muslims who had been

13 members of the column and who had given assessments of the numbers of

14 dead that they saw? Do you recall that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I'd like to revisit some of the testimony on that topic by

17 looking at 1D1196, page 33 in e-court and that should correlate to

18 transcript page 33599 of that transcript.

19 And I'd like to focus on the first 13 lines of this transcript,

20 sir, and if you can follow along, I'll have some questions for you after

21 the -- after we review it. It reads as follows:

22 "Q. Sir, is there any reason that you know of that we should

23 doubt what this witness on Exhibit 2D669 had reported to the ICTY

24 investigator in January 1996?

25 "A. Yes. First of all, we have the number of surface remains

Page 15310

1 collected in this area and you can find the total of them. It's a little

2 bit more than 500 in this Pobudje area so far identified which you can

3 find it in my report. Second, I'm wondering how accurate this number is.

4 In order to assess the number, you need some special, I would say,

5 training. It's not that easy. As police officer, I can say that there

6 is a special training in order to assess how many people is gathered, for

7 example, in one place. So -- and if you are not trained in that, so you

8 can be -- you can be wrong easily."

9 First of all, sir, do you affirm that this transcript excerpt

10 accurately depicts your testimony on this point?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And is such testimony truthful such that you would so repeat the

13 same today if asked these questions?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, you talk here about special training as a police officer.

16 So I'd like to ask you, sir, did you undergo any special training as a

17 police officer to assess the number of people gathered or perhaps to

18 assess casualties, the number of casualties, in the course of performing

19 your duties?

20 A. Not me personally during my career but some of my colleagues did

21 attend such training or -- especially those who were dealing with public

22 peace and order.

23 Q. Would you permit that military persons might likewise have a

24 training or developed skill necessary for their work to accurately

25 determine and estimate how many people are gathered or how many people

Page 15311

1 are injured or killed in a given area?

2 A. You know, it would be a speculation but some of them might be.

3 It's the same like police officers. You see myself, I haven't received

4 any training on that but only a specific certain of my colleagues they

5 did receive such training so I would not generalise in that sense.

6 Q. At the time that you gave the answer in the Popovic case that we

7 have up on our screen that we just went through, did you at that time

8 know what kind of career training the witnesses in question had, perhaps

9 in the military, which might affect the reliability of the estimates that

10 they gave as to casualties?

11 A. No.

12 Q. If we can finish up with the tail end of this page, it's on the

13 screen, it's line 20 through 25, and the question is recorded as follows:

14 "Q. Well, what endeavours did the Office of the Prosecution take

15 in order to determine out of the numbers that you've put in your report,

16 the 5300 or so, how many were actually as a result of casualties from

17 walking over land mines? Did you do that analysis?

18 "A. No, I did not.

19 "Q. Do you know of anyone who did at the Office of the

20 Prosecution?"

21 MR. IVETIC: If we can go to the next page.

22 Q. "A. I think no one did it.

23 "Q. Okay. How about did anyone do an investigation or at the

24 least undertake the process to determine how many people from this

25 military column that was leaving from Susnjari, how many died as a result

Page 15312

1 of self-inflicted wounds or suicide?

2 "A. No. There were no such investigation.

3 "Q. Okay. How about as a result of these legitimate combat

4 engagements? When the VRS attacked the legitimate column of military

5 men, did anybody investigate to determine how many actually died as a

6 result of that combat engagement?

7 "A. No. I'm not aware of any such investigation.

8 "Q. Not doing any of the investigation on at least those three

9 and other areas, did you investigate whether or not any of those people

10 who died as a result of either suicide, mines, land mines, or combat

11 engagements, whether anyone buried those individuals?

12 "A. Yeah. I was trying to find that fact but there were

13 instances regarding this Glogova, what I mentioned with my corrigendum

14 but apart from that, there was not a lot of such information."

15 First of all, sir, does this selection from the transcript

16 accurately record the answers that you gave to the questions?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you stand by those as being truthful such that you would so

19 testify today?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now I'd like to go through with you one of the -- actually both

22 of the witness statements that were the subject of the questions posed to

23 you in Popovic.

24 MR. IVETIC: If we could first call up 1D1192, but if we could

25 please not broadcast the same as I don't know if it's a person that has

Page 15313

1 sought protective measures or not.

2 Q. And if we could first take a look at the title page together,

3 sir, would you agree with me that this is a person who gave a statement

4 to the Prosecution on the 23rd of August, 1995, and has his occupation

5 listed as military and is a Bosnian Muslim in ethnicity?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to look at the next page, which also

8 should not be broadcast. I guess to be safe, none of the pages from this

9 document should be broadcast.

10 Q. The second full paragraph of this page, we see that the man was a

11 soldier and in fact a platoon commander in charge of a platoon of 33 men,

12 himself included. Do you consider, sir, that a platoon commander has a

13 bit more of a reason to be precise as to assessing the number and extent

14 of either manpower or casualties than the average person?

15 A. It's difficult to say. We would need to ask this specific

16 question this particular person in order to find out the exact answer.

17 Q. Okay. At the bottom of the page, he starts giving his

18 descriptions of what he saw and I'd like to go through that with you. It

19 reads as follows:

20 "As soon as I left with my group, the Serbs started machine-gun

21 fire. I believe in order to force us in their territory. I heard also

22 shelling in front of us, and I believe the Serbs shelled the units in

23 front of me because I saw later a lot of dead bodies, killed by shelling.

24 Ejub Golic was the commander of the Glogova unit who protected the rear,

25 was killed later. After about 200 metres, people in the column in front

Page 15314

1 of me stopped because they did not know the way and they had lost the

2 sight of the brigades in front of them. There was a path of about

3 maximum 1 metre wide. Those who had gone first had marked the way."

4 MR. IVETIC: If we can go to the next page.

5 Q. "And in Buljim, I and the others had been told not to leave the

6 path and not to touch anything what was near that path, such as paper,

7 tin cans, et cetera, because this was to mark the road in the minefield?"

8 From this description, or from this part of the statement, is

9 there anything that you consider renders this description to be

10 unqualified or unreliable?

11 A. No, I don't think so. That's his statement.

12 MR. IVETIC: If we could go to the next paragraph on page 3, so

13 the first full paragraph at the top, I'd like to focus on that for a

14 moment.

15 Q. The description he gives is as follows:

16 "I sent my father and brothers forward with the head of the

17 column and told them I would stay to secure the rear. I waited about one

18 half -- about half hour because these 2- to 3.000 people passed one by

19 one. At that time, the Chetniks started aimed shooting at us with small

20 arms. There were a lot of wounded and killed. Golic told us to go down

21 and take shelter to a creek. He told us not to fire a single bullet

22 because then the Serbs would take this as a breach of the agreement for

23 the withdrawal, the ultimatum. There at the creek, I saw five bodies,

24 two decapitated, the others mutilated, but I do not know if they died

25 from shelling or if they had been slaughtered."

Page 15315

1 Is there anything in this section of the statement which would

2 give you reason to discredit the accuracy or reliability of the

3 observations of this man?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Would you agree with me that he appears to be reciting details in

6 a manner consistent with military training as to the details to be

7 remembered and to be reported?

8 A. Most probably, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you're asking for judgement of these

10 kind of things, whereas the witness is not the one who should give that

11 judgement but it's finally the Chamber in the context of the totality of

12 the evidence. If you ask the witness whether he has any indication why

13 this person would not have accurately told, then of course, the witness,

14 unless there is any specific issue, has to answer by -- but if he has

15 so -- the question, as long as it is, is there any fact to your

16 knowledge, fine; if it is asking the witness for a judgement, not fine.

17 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 If we can -- I believe it's just the next paragraph now, if we

19 can look at this one, it reads as follows:

20 "About one kilometre further, every three to four minutes, one

21 grenade was fired by the Serbs. We had a lot of wounded, civil and

22 military. We tried not to leave behind -- leave anyone behind. During a

23 rest period, I saw my father and brothers back. Then a soldier came and

24 passed the order that all men who had a weapon should take position on

25 the left and right flanks of the column to protect the people as much as

Page 15316

1 possible. I saw one of soldiers pull out a hand grenade and activate it.

2 He and three other people died. I saw several walk on mines, others lost

3 their senses, killed themselves and even others. They went just crazy.

4 Some run toward the Chetniks while yelling. I saw about ten people do

5 this."

6 Sir, is this section here consistent with the facts as concluded

7 by the investigation of the Office of the Prosecutor as to the types of

8 things that were occurring in the Bosnian Muslim column as it went

9 towards Tuzla from Srebrenica in July of 1995?

10 A. Yes, these incidents did occur.

11 Q. I'd like to --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, is there any dispute about such

13 incidents have occurred in the column?

14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, good morning to you.

15 There is not a dispute per se as to the types of incidents that have

16 occurred. The nature and the extent of these incidents is another issue,

17 and I think that's where Mr. Ivetic may be toeing the line a bit close,

18 but in terms of the types, we're okay.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it amounts to 1.000 or 2.000 --

20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, exactly.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's the issue, not whether it happened or not.

22 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct. Thank you, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you please keep this in the back

24 of your mind when you continue there because what seems to be the real

25 issue is the number, not the type of incidents. Please proceed.

Page 15317

1 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And we are getting to that.

2 The next paragraph in the statement is where the witness -- where this

3 witness that did the statement is giving a number and how he arrived at

4 the number.

5 Q. And I'd like to have you follow along with me, sir. It reads as

6 follows:

7 "I caught up with my father and rest of the column. It started

8 to get dark. Then suddenly the head of the column turned backwards and

9 they screamed: Chetniks, Chetniks. The Serbs started shelling, fired

10 hand-launched missiles during about half an hour. Until that time, we

11 never had fired back. But at that time I heard the order: Let us open

12 fire and try to break through. We opened fire and we managed to make a

13 breach and we could move for about 500 metres. We came to a hill.

14 There, I and others were ordered to go back and take the wounded.

15 I went back also because I wanted to search my family members. I went

16 from body to body and I believe there were at least 500 people there

17 killed by the Serb fire."

18 Now, is this part of this witness statement consistent with the

19 findings of the OTP investigation?

20 A. You know, apart from the number, how he come up with this number,

21 did he count them or what was the methodology used to find out how many

22 people were there and did that, other parts might be consistent with our

23 findings because we have in that area, in Pobudje area many people found

24 or their remains were found on the ground, on the surface.

25 Q. Well, if you remember, sir, the beginning of this part of the

Page 15318

1 examination, we started with your answer in Popovic which indicated some

2 special training would be required to reliably estimate the number of

3 persons. If the individual went from body to body upon orders to take

4 any wounded back, would you agree with me that such an approach would not

5 necessarily need special training?

6 A. You know, the problem is that what he was focusing on at the time

7 so he was focusing on wounded people, not on how many of them is -- and

8 there, he hasn't been counting there. He hasn't been there to count

9 them. Even when I'm talking about the special training, you are trained

10 to do that and you are there to do that. For example, I mean, in

11 competition or whatever, on sport event, you would be counting I mean how

12 many people attended and you would be doing that on purpose. So that

13 would be your main purpose, but obviously purpose of this individual was

14 something else at that time, so it's really difficult to -- to say if

15 this is an accurate number or not.

16 Q. Okay. I would like to look at page 5 of this statement, the

17 middle of the first paragraph, which reads as follows, sir:

18 He's talking about the Hrncic area. He says:

19 "I believe we were in the Hrncic area but I am not sure. I asked

20 the ones who wanted to surrender to leave the weapons. Suddenly, about

21 ten to 20 shells, I believe directly aimed, were fired at us. I believe

22 it was WBR fire because all grenades arrived almost at the same time. It

23 was a real massacre. There were many dead and wounded. I estimate about

24 150 in total. When another round was fired, I ran toward the woods to

25 try to find shelter. I returned to the -- returned to the spot in order

Page 15319

1 to try to find my father and brother. I saw a lot of wounded people,

2 some were begging me to kill them. Other soldiers were looking for their

3 relatives. One of them said he was from Srebrenica and said he knew the

4 way towards the Udrc mountains."

5 Now, again, he is talking about the Hrncic area. Is this

6 description consistent with the findings of your investigation as to the

7 types of engagement and casualties that were encountered in this area by

8 the column?

9 A. Yes. Even in that area, which is part of Pobudje area, we --

10 there were some surface remains found, so there were casualties in that

11 area.

12 Q. Now, if we look at the third paragraph, and I'm trying to see if

13 I can condense it, if we can look at the first part of the third

14 paragraph, and it reads as follows:

15 "When we arrived, about three kilometres before Snagovo we met

16 other soldiers who told us that the road there was impossible to cross

17 since there were many troops, APCs and tanks. We returned back to Udrc.

18 From there, eight of us went to Tisca and then in the direction of

19 Kladanj. Near a tunnel by a creek, the person who knew the way told us

20 to follow exactly his steps because the road was mined. I saw there

21 around 25 to 30 bodies, most of them killed by stepping on mines, but I

22 saw four of them who had been slaughtered and decapitated. We proceeded

23 but one of my group stepped on a mine and three, four of us were wounded.

24 One of the others said: You take care of the wounded, I will go to our

25 lines and try to get help from our side. Then he left and about

Page 15320

1 200 metres further we heard a detonation. The three of us who were not

2 wounded went to see if our guy had activated a mine but he had not. Then

3 we heard screams, the wounded who had left behind -- who we had left

4 behind were attacked by the Chetniks and -- and I do not know what

5 happened to them. The Serbs caught us in a cross fire."

6 Now, here we are talking about the region Tisca in the direction

7 of Kladanj. Is this consistent with the findings of your investigation

8 as to this region and the number and type of casualties that were

9 occasioned in that area?

10 A. We have some surface remains found in that area, not exactly in

11 Tisca but close to Tisca, there were some collected from the ground over

12 the years.

13 Q. And we don't have to reed it but I can direct you to the

14 paragraph before this one, he also in the last sentence of that

15 paragraph, talks about:

16 "On the way I saw several fresh graves, probably wounded who had

17 died."

18 Do you have any information at your disposal resulting from your

19 investigations to either confirm or contradict the existence of fresh

20 graves along the path of the column?

21 A. There were fresh graves in -- up north in Orahovac. There is

22 a -- this is the closest one and of course in Glogova, so these were the

23 freshest, the graves, at the time. In that areas.

24 Q. If you can assist us, this witness statement says that the -- on

25 the way from Cerska to the Udrc mountains and after Udrc mountains to

Page 15321

1 Kamenica is where he encountered these graves. Would that be the region

2 that you were talking about?

3 A. No, that would be in that area there is the Cerska grave, and

4 from Cerska up to Udrc, no, there is no open graves at the time.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm finished with this document. I'd now like

6 to --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one question, Mr. Ivetic? What do

8 you expect the Chamber to do with the portions you read? The witness --

9 apparently in the statement a lot of details are given about what

10 happened there and then this witness says, We found some surface remains.

11 Do you expect the Chamber to rely on what you read from the statement?

12 Or do you exclude that and say the Chamber should rely on what this

13 witness told us, that is that there were surface remains found in area A,

14 B or C? Because I'm asking you this because the person giving the

15 statement has not attested to this statement. It raises quite a number

16 of questions. There was a strong suggestion in your question, for

17 example, that the witness literally meant to say that he went one by one

18 to all -- to what he believed to be 500 persons. Now, whether he counted

19 them or not was clearly an issue which cannot be clarified without that

20 witness.

21 MR. IVETIC: Agree.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So my question is what do you expect the Chamber to

23 do?

24 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honours, I expect to assess the evidence

25 as a whole including this witness and his reliability. We started off

Page 15322

1 with his testimony where he had --

2 JUDGE ORIE: No. My specific question is: Could the Chamber

3 rely on the portions read apart from where the witness says, Well, we

4 found some surface remains which is consistent with what the witness

5 said, but all the other details and what happened and numbers and

6 counting, et cetera, is -- should the Chamber rely on that or can the

7 Chamber rely on that or even consider it at all?

8 MR. IVETIC: Based upon this witness statement by itself, no. We

9 hope to be bringing corroborating evidence of these facts later.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine, but as matters stand now,

11 therefore, the content of what that witness said in the statement to the

12 extent not confirmed by this witness is not something the Chamber could

13 or should rely on.

14 MR. IVETIC: Agree.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

16 MR. IVETIC: If we can now call up 1D1191, and again this also

17 should not be broadcast out of the abundance of caution for this person

18 that was interviewed by the Prosecution.

19 Q. And, sir, just looking at the first page, can you agree with me

20 this is another Bosnian Muslim who gave a statement in January of 1996 to

21 the ICTY Prosecutor?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. IVETIC: And if we can move to the second page, and the third

24 paragraph -- or, pardon me, the fifth paragraph from the top, which

25 begins and reads as follows:

Page 15323

1 "We found the traces of the groups in front of us and followed

2 their path. We travelled like that until 1700 hours, when we arrived

3 above the village of Kravica, in the forest between Kravica and Kamenica.

4 We got an order coming from the front of the column to stop and take a

5 break. We sat down. Five minutes later, we received another order that

6 the civilians who were at the rear of the column should go first. I got

7 up and started moving and passed by the column of people. I walked

8 quickly during half an hour, passing by a lot of people, all of them were

9 unarmed civilians and there was only one armed soldier every 50 metres

10 guarding the sides of the column. I was moving towards the front when a

11 very strong shooting started, again coming from all kinds of weapons. I

12 noticed a big tree and took shelter behind. When I was there, I saw many

13 people falling down hit by bullets. Everybody was dispersing and screams

14 of pain from wounded people could be heard coming from all directions.

15 Nobody could help them."

16 If we could just go to the next page.

17 "I stood up and saw many dead bodies around and also many wounded

18 who had their limbs cut due to the shelling."

19 Q. I'd like to end there and ask you, sir, is this consistent that

20 there was this type of -- with the investigation that you or the Office

21 of the Prosecutor undertook that there was this type of engagement above

22 the village of Kravica, in the forest between Kravica and Kamenica?

23 A. Yes, I would say yes, and the Prosecution does have even a video

24 of this shelling going from the road, Kravica-Bratunac road, and this is

25 exactly at that area. What's happening there, what we can see on the

Page 15324

1 video, it's exactly the place or nearby where this witness is talking

2 about.

3 MR. IVETIC: If we can go to page 4, the third paragraph on that

4 page, this individual --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Witness, did you find any surface

6 remains in that area as well?

7 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. The -- many of them were found

8 in that area as well. I think the biggest concentrations of surface

9 remains were found or left there on the ground.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed. And they are accounted

11 for in the report, I take it?

12 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, in annex B.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

14 MR. IVETIC:

15 Q. If we could focus on the third paragraph, where this individual

16 states as follows:

17 "I went back to the forest and found there," and I guess I won't

18 read the name out of an abundance of caution, "from the village of," and

19 I won't read the name of the village but you can see it there. "He told

20 me that many were still in the forest. We separated and my group decided

21 to go to Zepa. I looked for somebody who was from Zepa to show us the

22 way. I found," and again I won't read the name but you see it there,

23 "who was from Zepa and who joined us." Another name I won't read, "who

24 was a teacher, went with us. We decided to return to Srebrenica area and

25 from there to Zepa. We first returned to Susnjari. We came to a creek

Page 15325

1 above Susnjari and noticed that the village was burnt and that the cattle

2 was walking around. We didn't see any soldiers so we went to seek for

3 some food in the village. After we found what we needed, we started to

4 walk. We spent a day in the forest above the village and observed the

5 movements of the Chetniks. We continued towards Bukovic mountains to

6 reach Suceska. During the night we found another group led by," and I

7 won't mention the name of the individual or the village, "among them I

8 knew also," another name, "from Srebrenica. All together we crossed the

9 river Jadar and went to the village of Bektici. We arrived at the forest

10 Susica. From there we could see Zepa and heard heavy artillery fire. We

11 went to the village Vukoljin Stan where we met," a name, "who is the

12 commander of the Mountain Battalion of Glogova. With this unit we went

13 to Zepa where we stayed until the same event happened like in Srebrenica,

14 the Zepa safe area fell."

15 Now, first of all, sir, is this consistent with the investigation

16 of the Office of the Prosecutor that a number of the men including

17 fighters from the column that left Srebrenica in July of 1995 actually

18 abandoned their trek and made their way back to Zepa?

19 A. Yeah, that's correct. There was even a Kravica survivor from

20 there who went towards this -- towards Zepa and he ended up there.

21 Q. As the results of your investigation, are you in a position to

22 give a reliable number as to the number of Bosnian Muslim males that went

23 to Zepa from the Bosnian Muslim column that left Srebrenica in July of

24 1995?

25 A. I think I was reviewing once the number of -- or the estimate of

Page 15326

1 how many individuals would have left for Zepa, so I don't recall as again

2 specifically how many of those would be but maybe few hundreds, not more.

3 Q. When you say few hundreds, 1, 2, 3, less than 5, more than 5?

4 Could you --

5 A. It would be a speculation but it's definitely less than a

6 thousand.

7 Q. Fair enough. Now, I'd like to go through just one more part of

8 the statement with you of this witness -- of this person, I apologise.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question?

10 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any specific information about the number

12 of casualties of the group that headed for Zepa?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, not in my report because my

14 report is related to the events related to Srebrenica. Previously in my

15 report for Tolimir trial I did have a section with remains or casualties

16 from Zepa and -- but according to my understanding, most of those who

17 left towards Zepa indeed found their way there. They were killed after,

18 after the Zepa events so -- but they are not included in my report.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So they cannot explain -- if there were so little

20 casualties, it cannot explain the number of persons found being dead,

21 either surface or in graves? Is that -- I have to -- how I have to

22 understand?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 15327

1 Q. When you say that those that went to Zepa were killed after Zepa

2 and are not included in your summary, where were those casualties of

3 Bosnian males from Srebrenica that went to Zepa and that became

4 casualties after Zepa, where were they buried?

5 A. Most of them were just left on the surface, on the ground. They

6 were found. They have around 30 or 40 so far identified. Some of them

7 were executed and buried. A group of leaders from Zepa, we know for

8 them. But for others, there were actually not that much casualties in

9 Zepa than it was the case for Srebrenica. So it's altogether, let's say,

10 up to 50 individuals so far identified in wider area of Zepa.

11 Q. And would those individuals be on the list of missing persons

12 from Srebrenica or from Zepa?

13 A. You know, some would have been reported as being missing from

14 Srebrenica because that's the place where they were last seen. They, of

15 course, then made their way down to Zepa and you would find them as

16 missing from Srebrenica, but the place where they were found would tell

17 us that eventually most probably they ended their way in Zepa and from

18 there they have never made their way out to free territory. So it's not

19 really a distinction there in those data, whether or not it is Srebrenica

20 or Zepa-related victim. For some of them, it's known because they were

21 only in Zepa, but those who migrated from Srebrenica to Zepa during those

22 events it would be difficult to distinguish.

23 Q. Okay. I appreciate that. Now I'd like to finish up with this

24 page of the -- of this gentleman's statement as he then describes his

25 trek from Zepa. And I can tell you that later on in the statement, this

Page 15328

1 gentleman indicates that he only made it to the Muslim free territory

2 in -- on 21 September 1995, so that all of these observations are at some

3 point in time before then, although of course I would not know the

4 specifics.

5 MR. IVETIC: One moment, please.

6 I think I can continue while my colleague consults.

7 Q. "I fled with Hamdija's unit of 20 men. We left three days after

8 the Chetniks entered Zepa. We went back and arrived in the village of

9 Suceska where we collected some food. We continued and arrived in

10 Susnjari where we stayed for a rest. Then we followed the path made by

11 the column which had previously fled Srebrenica. We had walked for about

12 four days. Coming down the Buljim mountain we found a lot of

13 skeletons" --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, please remain seated. Please remain

15 seated. I gained the impression, Mr. Ivetic, that Mr. Mladic felt it

16 important that you would receive the message or whatever it is

17 immediately. Of course, Mr. Stojanovic is in the position to judge

18 whether that is accurate or not.

19 MR. IVETIC: One moment, Your Honour, if I may consult with

20 Mr. Stojanovic.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, don't hesitate if there is any

22 matter which needs to be brought to the attention of Mr. Ivetic

23 immediately. I saw you were moving around a bit hesitant. Don't be

24 hesitant. Just give it to Mr. Ivetic.

25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 15329

1 [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, keep your voice down. Mr. Mladic, keep

3 your voice down at all times.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I think I'd like to finish

6 up with the quotation and then I'll deal with the issue that Mr. Mladic

7 raised because we are in the middle of a citation and our time is

8 approaching the break.

9 Q. So I believe we had left off with the section:

10 "We had found a lot of skeletons and parts of bodies of those who

11 were killed on the way. Close from the spot of the first ambush, we

12 found three survivors who had stayed there hidden for about 40 days.

13 They refused to join us. When we then arrived at the forest where the

14 second ambush occurred in order to try to identify some bodies. Bodies

15 were still all around. I recognised the bodies of two men who were with

16 me at the beginning, at their clothes and their bags. I searched for my

17 brothers" --

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we turn the page, please?

19 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.

20 Q. "I searched for my brothers but did not find any of them. We did

21 not count the bodies we saw but I would estimate that there were about 2

22 or 3.000 bodies."

23 And, sir, I'd like to stop there and ask you is this consistent

24 with the results of your investigation as to this region?

25 A. I saw this Buljim region, I have to -- I have difficulties to

Page 15330

1 trying to remember where that region is because it's not on my report as

2 the region or place where the surface remains were found. So maybe you

3 try to help me in which area this Buljim is. I can certainly find if I

4 am provided with a map.

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. IVETIC:

7 Q. I'm told that that is right outside of the -- what was the

8 protected enclave of Srebrenica near Sandici.

9 A. If it's near Sandici then I'm -- certainly in that area because

10 this is part of the Pobudje area. We do have many surface remains in

11 that area.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. But again here the number, how accurate it is, so --

14 Q. I appreciate that we have a question about the number. I'm just

15 seeing about the rest of everything.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I see we are at the time for the first

19 break. I don't want to go over.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we take the break first. But first, one

21 second.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: The issue you wanted to raise in relation to what

24 Mr. Mladic told you, is that to be done with the witness and will it be

25 done after the break?

Page 15331

1 MR. IVETIC: With the witness after the break, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: After the break. Then we take the break first.

3 Mr. Janc, we will take a break of 20 minutes. Would you please

4 follow the usher.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

12 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Before we get back to the statement of the individual that's on

14 the screen, I'd like to return to Zepa and ask you if you're familiar

15 with an event that occurred after the fall of Zepa, specifically when

16 approximately 850 armed soldiers of the BiH army in Zepa, rather than

17 submitting their weapons to the VRS, went with their weapons and passed

18 over the Drina River into Serbia and surrendered at the village Sljivica

19 and then thereafter many made their way to America and to Europe. First

20 of all, are you aware of that event occurring after the fall of Zepa

21 enclave?

22 A. Yes, I'm aware of that event. I'm not certain about the number

23 of those soldiers but I'm certainly aware of the event, yes, that took

24 place.

25 Q. Are you able to confirm or exclude any armed combatants from

Page 15332

1 Srebrenica who had gone to Zepa may -- being a part of that group that

2 did so, whatever the number may be?

3 A. No, I'm not able either to confirm or exclude but I'm sure there

4 were some.

5 Q. And are you able to exclude beyond any reasonable doubt that any

6 of those individuals might be on your list in your report?

7 JUDGE MOLOTO: How could they be, Mr. Ivetic, if you say they

8 went to America and Europe, or some of them did, and they crossed into

9 Serbia?

10 MR. IVETIC: They could still be listed as missing from

11 Srebrenica where they originally originated from, Your Honours. If they

12 never went back there, they could still be missing.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Listed in his report as missing, not as

14 dead.

15 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

17 THE WITNESS: Just to answer your question, on my report are only

18 the individuals who have been so far identified. If they are still

19 missing, if they are still missing, I have not included them into my

20 report.

21 MR. IVETIC:

22 Q. Fair enough. Now, if -- if we could return to the document we

23 have up on our screen, and if we can look at the middle --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone is open. Okay. Let's proceed.

25 MR. IVETIC:

Page 15333

1 Q. If we could look at the middle of the page that we have now,

2 actually it's at the -- yes, it's right at the middle of the page, and

3 the section reads as follows:

4 "During the night we were spotted by the Chetniks and Osman was

5 shot. I ran and bullets passed by. I could see the tracers. I arrived

6 in a corn field and lost the others. I stayed a whole day there, just

7 laying in the grass. In the evening I went back and travelled for four

8 days before arriving at Udrc mountain. I met people there who told me

9 that," and I won't read the name, "arrived there the day before. I found

10 him together with a huge group of about 5 to 600. The next day the

11 Chetniks started shelling and fired at us with armoured personnel

12 carriers. Then they searched the mountain. We stayed hidden and then

13 went to the village of Babici. Near of a water tap, we found six bodies

14 of civilians near the tap. We noticed armoured vehicles and left and

15 decided to return to Srebrenica."

16 Is -- first of all, is this consistent with your investigation of

17 the types of encounters or engagements that now these persons from

18 Srebrenica who had gone to Zepa and now were leaving Zepa to follow the

19 path originally taken by the column experienced following the fall of

20 Zepa?

21 A. Yes, those who left Zepa, they did take different routes, south,

22 west, east, and north.

23 Q. And is it consistent with your investigation that groups

24 numbering up to 5 to 600 went along this route that this individual

25 described and encountered combat engagements with the Serb forces?

Page 15334

1 A. I can't confirm for this 500 individuals but there were certain

2 groups who were heading north.

3 Q. Okay. If you can clarify for the transcript, did you say "I can

4 confirm" or you can't confirm?

5 A. I cannot.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Now ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: Consultations should be limited to the real

8 necessary during the hearings and should be postponed until a break.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, from this statement, we see that searches of the terrain, at

12 least of the mountain, were being undertaken sometime after Zepa fell

13 when this group of persons from Zepa fled. Can you conclusively exclude,

14 with reasonable certainty, that these searches of the terrain conducted

15 after Zepa fell, perhaps even into September 1995, according to this

16 witness, resulted in human remains being found that were then collected

17 and buried in the graves that are being called secondary graves which

18 were dug in the month of September and October 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Ivetic, just for my own guidance and from the

21 excerpt that you read for this witness, I didn't see the name Zepa, and

22 you're now talking about people coming from Srebrenica going to Zepa.

23 Could you, just for my own edification, maybe explain the geography of

24 those areas that are being mentioned here, particularly in relation to

25 Zepa.

Page 15335

1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, if you recall from the fourth page of

2 this exhibit, this is the individual who -- from Srebrenica left with the

3 column and then with several units went to Zepa because they could not

4 break through and then stayed in Zepa until Zepa fell, and then went

5 along the same path as originally taken by the Srebrenica column from

6 Zepa and then encountered others, this group of 4 to 500 that were taking

7 this same route. And I believe the geography that is identified in the

8 section that we just read was Udrc mountain, and it says that the -- he

9 met people there, numbering of 5 to 600, and then the next day the

10 Chetniks started shelling and firing at them, and then the Chetniks

11 searched the mountain. So we are talking about the region by Udrc

12 mountain.

13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks for that explanation which -- but I'm not

14 quite sure whether what you referred to at page 4 is it because you're

15 not showing us that page, you know, and -- but anyway, thank you so much.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the relevant part was read into the

17 transcript on page 21, lines 18 to 24.

18 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I believe so. Thank you, Your Honour, for

19 clarifying that.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks, Judge.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The witness very -- with a very short answer said

22 "yes" upon your last question, Mr. Ivetic. Could we resume from there

23 with the next question?

24 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

25 Q. Would you agree that you cannot exclude that in addition to

Page 15336

1 surface remains, some part of the list of persons you provide in your

2 report as having been exhumed from graves may comprise these casualties

3 from both the Srebrenica and Zepa exodus of males to Tuzla that were

4 discovered upon the search of the terrain conducted after Zepa fell in

5 September of 1995?

6 A. We have evidence that only in Glogova primary grave there were

7 people buried who were collected from the ground along the road, Kravica

8 or Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. So we have evidence on that, that there

9 was collection of those bodies along the road. Apart from that, there is

10 no strong evidence or no evidence at all that any bodies which were --

11 remained in the forest that were ever collected. What we have in the

12 northern part, we have primary graves and we have secondary graves.

13 There is evidence on these secondary graves that they are -- to which

14 primary grave they are connected, and evidence that in those secondary

15 graves there are only individuals which are coming from those primary

16 graves. This is based on physical evidence which is found during the

17 exhumation and also on the latest DNA connections which I provided in

18 this part of my report.

19 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that your DNA connections only

20 match 6.3 per cent of DNA material from the primary gives to the

21 so-called secondary graves?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. Okay. And would you agree with me that there is evidence,

24 written evidence, that asanacija or sanitisation of the terrain was

25 ordered to be carried out in the various areas along the path of the

Page 15337

1 Bosnian Muslim column's march towards Tuzla by the Serbs?

2 A. Yes, I would agree with you that that was ordered. Whether or

3 not that was actually executed, it's a different story. We don't have

4 reports on actual search of terrain exercise.

5 Q. And so is it really your testimony that with a 6.3 per cent match

6 of DNA from primary to secondary graves, evidence of orders of asanacija

7 to be carried out, that you can exclude the possibility that some of the

8 bodies that are buried were collected as part of a sanitisation or

9 asanacija from the locations where combat took place and buried in these

10 graves that are called secondary graves and which, in part, are secondary

11 graves?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer the question. Mr. Vanderpuye?

13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think Mr. Ivetic's

14 question first assumes a fact that's not in evidence in this case. He's

15 alleged that the DNA connection between primary and secondary graves

16 amounts to 6.3 per cent but that assumes that there is DNA that can be

17 matched --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- between primary and secondary graves to

20 whatever -- whatever percentage, 100 per cent, 80 per cent, it assumes

21 that that is possible and therefore there is DNA that's obtained from

22 both graves that can be matched.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vanderpuye, this seems to be argument rather

24 than an objection to the question. Second, if you say Mr. Ivetic's

25 question first assumes a fact that's not in evidence in this case, is

Page 15338

1 that not one of the specific elements of what makes the question a

2 leading question, a leading question which is permitted in

3 cross-examination?

4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would submit, Your Honour, with all due

5 respect, no, it doesn't. A leading question is a question that posits a

6 conclusion but is not predicated on something that is not in evidence in

7 the case. That's a different question. And a question that is

8 predicated in the way Mr. Ivetic has phrased it is a misleading one.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it's misleading or not is another matter.

10 I was taught, not coming from a common law jurisdiction, that a leading

11 question can be defined as a question which either assumes a fact which

12 has not yet been established or, second, that it may suggest an answer to

13 that question. So two different types of leading questions. You, I

14 think you referred to the one type and excluded -- I'm not going at this

15 moment to enter into any further debate on the matter. Apart from that,

16 the witness agreed to it, to the 6.3, before you raised the -- let me

17 see.

18 MR. IVETIC: Should have been in either the prior question or the

19 question before that, Your Honour. I can find it. It's at page 29,

20 lines 23, through page 30, line 1, of the temporary transcript.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's leave it to that. The objection to the extent

22 it was an objection is denied. You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Sir, do you remember my question or would you perhaps like me to

25 repeat it for you?

Page 15339

1 A. Yes, I would like to be repeated, but first of all, I rechecked

2 my report and I can't agree with 6.3 percentage because we have in those

3 primary and secondary graves, in total, 5.624 individuals identified.

4 So -- and out of those number, 1852 -- for 1852 we found a connection

5 between two -- at least two graves, if not more, and there were 1.000

6 connections between those graves. So this percentage should be much

7 higher, if not -- it should be between 15 and 20 per cent of those cases.

8 Q. Sir, I'm relying upon your report. Do you have page 5 of annex C

9 in front of you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it says the total of DNA connections between primary and

12 secondary are 386. So by math, from the --

13 A. Just a second.

14 Q. It's the summation, totals that you have it says: Total

15 primary/secondary, 386. Am I correct in reading that?

16 A. Oh, yes, you are referring to connection between primary and

17 secondary graves only.

18 Q. Yes. Yes.

19 A. Okay, yes. That's correct, then.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To clarify the matter, Mr. Janc, on page 29,

22 line 23, you was asked:

23 "Would you agree with me, sir, that your DNA connections only

24 match 6.3 per cent of DNA material from the primary graves to the

25 so-called secondary graves?"

Page 15340

1 And your answer was: "Yes, yes."

2 Do you still stand by that?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, between primary and secondary graves, yes,

4 direct link between those two sites, that's correct.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.

6 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Now, sir, I think we're --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my understanding, Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The 6.3 per cent which you highlight that match,

11 does it mean that there were any negative DNA conclusions to be drawn

12 from others? I think we earlier -- and I think I asked a question about

13 that. These links only refer to situations where part of the bodily

14 remains were left at the site of the primary graves and that matching

15 body material was found in the secondary graves. So it doesn't, at least

16 that's my understanding, it doesn't say in any way that the -- that there

17 is 94 per cent not matching or something of the kind.

18 MR. IVETIC: It's not my intention to say that there is

19 94 per cent not matching.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, and that it fully depends on whether to what

21 extent, I would say, the primary graves were cleaned up totally or

22 whether small portions remained there. That is at least my understanding

23 of what the evidence is about.

24 MR. IVETIC: Or the other reasonable alternative is that the

25 bodies were not in the primary grave but only came in at the secondary

Page 15341

1 grave, some of the bodies, those that are not matched to the primary.

2 That's the other --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- well, no, no, I'm not -- that's not what I

4 said --

5 MR. IVETIC: I know --

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- and I didn't exclude that.

7 MR. IVETIC: And my question, Your Honours, if I may just

8 clarify --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Give an explanation as a matter of fact.

10 MR. IVETIC: If I can clarify. My question is a follow-up to the

11 witness's testimony at page 29, lines 10 through 22, where he says there

12 is evidence in these secondary graves to which the primary graves that

13 are connected that in these secondary graves are only individuals who are

14 coming from these primary graves and this is based on physical evidence

15 and the latest DNA connections. That's what this has witness said and

16 that's what I'm asking, based upon this, is he really excluding the

17 possibility that some of those remains in the secondary graves are

18 remains that were not in the primary graves, and that's what direction

19 I'm going.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's a valid question. Please proceed.

21 MR. IVETIC:

22 Q. Can you answer that, sir? Let me restate it for you.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Given that we agree that there is a DNA connection confirming

25 6.3 per cent of the remains that were located in secondary graves

Page 15342

1 originated from primary graves, given that there is evidence or an

2 agreement that there were documents ordering asanacija to be undertaken

3 in the areas where we agree there was combat and we agree that there were

4 casualties, are you really testifying here today that you exclude

5 100 per cent the possibility that some bodies were recovered in asanacija

6 and buried in the secondary graves that were dug in September and October

7 of 1995, that is, following the events that we have just talked about?

8 A. Okay, for -- it would be really difficult to exclude for

9 100 per cent, with 100 per cent certainty, that possibility, but I would

10 say based on evidence collected so far it would be very unlikely. So let

11 me explain a little bit more on this. So we have to take into

12 consideration the entire picture, not only what connections we have

13 between primary and secondary graves because there is also importance

14 what is happening, what connections we have between secondary graves.

15 For example, if you have connection between primary grave and -- A and

16 secondary grave B, okay? We have a link between those two, and then if

17 you only have -- so it means one individual was found or body parts of

18 one individual in both graves. Then if you have a connection of another

19 individual which is between grave B and C, even that individual is linked

20 back to the primary grave because the person B is coming obviously from

21 the primary grave. So person C, even if you have only connection between

22 two secondary graves, it's also linked back to the primary grave, to the

23 same one, through -- that through that person B.

24 Q. So in your hypothetical --

25 A. No, I'm not hypothetical --

Page 15343

1 Q. It is a hypothetical because you're using B and C. If you were

2 using names it would not be hypothetical.

3 A. Yes, correct, correct.

4 Q. Okay. In your hypothetical, B is the person, the one body that

5 could be linked to the primary grave by DNA connections?

6 A. Correct, correct.

7 Q. That's what I'm saying.

8 A. So this is one portion of it. Then you have analysis on soil and

9 pollen samples so we know that certain secondary graves are coming from

10 particular primary sites, so you have to take into consideration that.

11 But in a way you are correct saying that it's difficult to say for

12 everybody in those graves that are indeed coming from the primary graves,

13 just based on the DNA connections.

14 Q. Exactly.

15 A. Yes. So in order to -- in order to establish the clear picture,

16 further analysis will be needed, deep analysis. I accept that. And as

17 I was talking to the representatives from the ICMP when preparing this

18 report, so they were telling -- telling me that they are putting together

19 a kind of a sequence chart. So what they are doing is -- first of all,

20 we have to understand that in each grave, secondary grave, you will

21 usually find that there were several deposits inside the grave which

22 means one deposit is one truck offload, so one transportation of bodies,

23 one deposit. So what they are doing now is they are trying to establish

24 which secondary graves have been filled first and then which -- what was

25 the sequence of those -- of those events, so they are trying to find the

Page 15344

1 links between them and they are doing that. And they are quite close to

2 complete the -- their analysis. They are not yet finished. I asked for

3 their report, or preliminary report on this issue, I haven't received

4 one. Because it's a time consuming job because first of all, you have to

5 know within -- if you're talking about one deposit which body parts were

6 found within that deposit and then you link that back to the primary

7 graves.

8 So in order to be 100 per cent certain, one would need to do this

9 analysis. So as I told you, you know, the Prosecution, the OTP, because

10 I've been looking for this information already before, particularly if I

11 can find information which body parts have been found in -- as part of

12 certain deposit within the secondary grave, okay,

13 I didn't find that information, but obviously the ICMP does have this

14 information available and this is analysis they have been doing now for

15 quite -- quite some time. And based on this analysis we will be much

16 closer to the -- to the picture whether or not all of them are indeed

17 related to or coming from the primary graves based on DNA connections

18 again. I'm emphasising.

19 However, again, if you check the -- my report, the charts, which

20 we have been looking at yesterday -- I don't know maybe we could upload

21 one if possible, to be easier to explain but we can go, for example,

22 chart C, chart number 2, and have Branjevo.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The exhibit number is P1987.

24 MR. IVETIC: It should be the fifth page from the end in e-court

25 is chart number 2.

Page 15345

1 THE WITNESS: Okay. It's the one after, please. Next page,

2 okay. So what we have here, you have connections related to Branjevo

3 primary and secondary graves on the -- and the right-hand side Kozluk.

4 They are both along the Cancari Road. Based on the connections we can

5 see and we can exclude, not only based on the connections, also based on

6 evidence we have, that re-exhumations were done at different time. So

7 one was done after another. I think Kozluk was first and only then

8 Branjevo. So there is no sequence between those two. And based on this

9 chart, you can also conclude that this is or, you know, establish that

10 was indeed the case. Why? Because if they were done simultaneously, for

11 example, theoretically speaking, again, and, for example, part of the

12 bodies were taken from Kozluk and part of the bodies on the same truck

13 from Branjevo and then deposited into the secondary grave, you would find

14 now connections, for example, between Cancari 1 and Cancari 5, or there

15 would be at least strong connections between those two.

16 Q. And this is all theoretically speaking as you indicated?

17 A. Not theoretically but that's --

18 Q. That's your words, theoretically speaking.

19 A. Theoretically speaking, okay, but let me correct myself in saying

20 it --

21 Q. Do you have evidence that the same truck was used --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you allow the witness to --

23 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I apologise.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- complete his answer.

25 THE WITNESS: What I'm saying here, if there was indeed mixture

Page 15346

1 of bodies on the same truck, the connections would appear here on these

2 charts but we have no strong connections between two group of -- groups

3 of graves. So which basically means that Kozluk has been re-exhumed and

4 the bodies were taken from Kozluk to Cancari secondary graves. After

5 that, we have Branjevo and re-exhumation done there, and bodies were

6 taken from Branjevo to secondary graves. If there was a continuation

7 even, for example, one grave they -- they -- okay, they -- they finished

8 the work at Kozluk and then the bodies would be taken from there to

9 secondary mass grave and the mass grave, secondary mass grave was not

10 full and they would continue job with Branjevo and bring the bodies from

11 Branjevo into the same secondary grave, I'm sure there would be a

12 connection, strong connection, for example, between two secondary graves,

13 one in Branjevo and the other in Kozluk, but we don't have these

14 connections. And it's the same if we go into the other chart, it will be

15 the same, you see you don't have strong connections between the graves,

16 which is telling us or which is a kind of evidence that those graves were

17 filled up at one -- at one time, one per time, and they were not mixed

18 with other individuals.

19 Of course, of course, you know, in order to exclude your

20 suggestion, that there would be -- there would be individuals taken from

21 the woods, you would need, you know, further analysis which I have been

22 talking about. But based on what I can see and what evidence have been

23 so far adduced from various sources, that would be very, very unlikely.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, before we continue, you may have

25 confused the witness to some extent when you referred to the 6.3 per cent

Page 15347

1 where the witness's testimony was that it was DNA connections and

2 physical evidence. You just left out part of the witness's answer about

3 the physical evidence and I think it has now been restored. It would

4 have been better to avoid that. I raise this issue, and then take you

5 back to yesterday where you did put to the witness the evidence of

6 another witness, Witness RM306, and then you said, "who testified that

7 pursuant to the legal obligations of the SFRY Law on Civil Protection,"

8 and you referred to the transcript page, "the bodies and remains

9 recovered by asanacija would be buried in communal or mass graves rather

10 than individual graves." And then the answer is irrelevant, but you

11 misrepresented the evidence of Witness RM306, who didn't say this, on

12 pages 11464 to 11465. He said, as a matter of fact, that the rule was

13 that they should be buried in individual graves, in individual graves,

14 that he wasn't certain that this was -- or at least he had doubts on

15 whether it was done at any point in time. And at least on those pages, I

16 cannot find that the bodies and remains recovered by asanacija would be

17 buried in relation to, as you introduced it, pursuant to the legal

18 obligations.

19 MR. IVETIC: The term "communal graves" is right there in the

20 transcript, Your Honour. I can't pull it up now but that's where I got

21 the question from.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not inviting you to have a debate on the matter.

23 I just want to point out to you that linking what was in accordance with

24 the legal obligations and what happened in reality and mixing it up

25 results in a -- at least partial misrepresentation of what the witness

Page 15348

1 said. Now, the witness couldn't answer the question so there is no

2 issue, but would you be please be very precise in any reference to either

3 an answer this witness gives or an answer given by another witness so as

4 to avoid any confusion. You may proceed.

5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And I must correct

6 Your Honour that at transcript page 33, line 8, I gave credit to the

7 witness for saying physical evidence and DNA connections.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I said you may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

9 MR. IVETIC: Yes, thank you.

10 Now, I'd like to turn to 1D1196, page 77, in e-court.

11 I apologise, it's going to be page 78. Again, 1D1196, page 78.

12 Q. And I'd like to focus on lines 8 through 19 with you, sir. This

13 is from your transcript -- your testimony in the Popovic case. And reads

14 as follows:

15 "Q. So Budak is partially a primary grave, not in relation to

16 this but Budak is a primary grave?

17 "A. Actually, where secondary grave Budak 1 is located there is

18 a Muslim grave, yes, next to it.

19 "Q. Just one more question about this proposition that I made.

20 It's a very reasonable possibility that those bodies were buried there,

21 isn't it?

22 "A. Which bodies you mean?

23 "Q. I'm talking about the bodies collected in the woods in the

24 area we have just discussed, Buljim, Kamenica, Pobudje, and so on.

25 "A. Yes. If they were collected, those were buried somewhere

Page 15349

1 for sure."

2 Is this testimony accurately depicting the answers that you gave

3 in the Popovic case to these questions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And do you stand by the same as being truthful such that you

6 would so testify today?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to look at 1D1195 -- actually strike that.

9 We've already gotten that. Skip that.

10 Q. Yesterday, you testified about the Bljeceva grave being mixed

11 with bodies from 1992 and 1995 and I would like to ask you a few

12 follow-up questions in relation to that site. When you say that there

13 were some bodies from a 1992 incident, would those bodies have come from

14 the municipality of Bratunac relating to an incident at the Vuk Karadzic

15 school in 1992? Is that what you are talking about?

16 A. Yes, I think so. That's the case.

17 Q. Now, if we can please return to P1983, which was used with you

18 yesterday. And page 4 in English, page 5 in the B/C/S, and it is again

19 paragraph 10 which we were looking at yesterday. And paragraph 10 is

20 where we looked at yesterday where it identifies that certain of the

21 bodies on top dated from 1992 and others were 1995 were found at the

22 bottom, I believe, of the grave.

23 Now, I have a question for you. How many of the bodies from this

24 site did you exclude as dating from 1992? Was it 50 or 80 or --

25 A. I think the number is around 100.

Page 15350

1 Q. Okay. It is about around 100?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Because in paragraph 4 of the document before us, it talks

4 about 80 of these, approximately 80 bodies, that were in JNA body bags.

5 Are those the ones that you excluded from this site or were there others?

6 A. Yes, these are the ones.

7 Q. Okay. So is it 100 or is it approximately 80?

8 A. It's around 80 or 90, something like that.

9 Q. Okay. Now, RM306 testified at our trial at transcript page 11481

10 through 11483, that he believed there were 100 to 150 bodies from 1992

11 which were removed and taken by Momir Nikolic.

12 So the question I have for you is as follows: Can you exclude

13 the possibility that the difference between the two numbers, that is the

14 approximately 80 that were confirmed to be from 1992 and excluded, and

15 the 100 to 150 that RM306 talks about, again we can't get an exact

16 number, of course, but can you exclude the possibility that some number,

17 perhaps as many as 60 or 70, dated from 1992 but were not excluded from

18 your list based upon the testimony of RM306?

19 A. What's included in my report are only victims which are related

20 to Srebrenica events which were found or rather to say their body parts

21 which were found in that mixed Bljeceva 1 grave and we have even DNA

22 connections back to the primary Glogova grave and other graves.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to take a look at 1D1196, page 59 in

25 e-court, which should correlate to transcript page 33625.

Page 15351

1 Q. And if we could focus on line 17 onward, I'd like to go over with

2 you some of the testimony that you gave in this case to see if it is

3 accurate?

4 "Q. Okay. Did you review the pathology reports as to the cause

5 and manner of death of the bodies that they did identify?

6 "A. Yes, some of them, but not all of them.

7 "Q. Excluding Kravica and Glogova, and excluding the two sites

8 where we saw a significant amount of ligatures and blindfolds, do you

9 agree with me that the cause and manner of death identified by the

10 pathologist is vague?

11 "A. I can't comment on that.

12 "Q. Well, why not? You're an investigator. You gave them

13 the" - and if we can turn to the next page - "direction to provide that

14 information. If they say someone died as a result of a bullet wound,

15 does that answer the question as to whether or not that person died from

16 a self-inflicted wound? A wound from one of his colleagues? A wound

17 from a combat engagement? Or a wound from an executor? All those four

18 or five possibilities exist, do they not?

19 "A. Yes, they do. But now, in order to -- to clarify the issue,

20 you have to look into this particular case from different perspectives.

21 You have to find more, for example, information about this particular

22 individual, not only the reports, also the information statements and

23 whatever evidence you can find on this person and then you can maybe

24 perhaps establish the manner and cause of death.

25 "Q. So you are saying, sir, that in fact you think it may not be

Page 15352

1 vague but that it's incomplete?

2 "A. Yes, perhaps.

3 "Q. Well, try to be more definitive. You're an investigator

4 giving evidence in an International Criminal Tribunal. You made a report

5 in this case, not perhaps, it's without a doubt, isn't it, that the path

6 report does not exclude or rule out any of the possibilities that I'm

7 suggesting, that the numbers that you've given us are indeed inflated and

8 included individuals who died as a result of sustaining injuries from

9 land mines, self-inflicted wounds, and/or injuries from legitimate combat

10 engagements?

11 "A. Yes, you're right."

12 Sir, can you confirm if this section of the transcript appears to

13 accurately record the answers that you gave to the questions posed?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you stand by those answers as truthful such that you would

16 so testify today the same way?

17 A. Yes, but there was -- for this last section it's a compound

18 question and what I answered here and it was -- I think I've been asked

19 on redirect again --

20 Q. Mm-hm.

21 A. -- the same what was meant here, I was asked if these numbers

22 were inflated and then you see it continues. My response was to that

23 second part yes, but whether or not the -- my numbers were inflated, you

24 know, my answer on response was later no.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification.

Page 15353

1 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to look at document 25555, 25.555, from

2 the Prosecution's 65 ter list.

3 Q. Sir, now that we have it on the screen, can you confirm for us

4 whether as part of your investigation you had a chance to review and

5 consider this UN document dated 17 July 1995 and updating the situation

6 as to Srebrenica and Tuzla?

7 A. Yes, most probably yes, let's say. I cannot confirm really.

8 I would need to go through, but most probably I did see this document

9 before.

10 Q. And as part of your investigations are you familiar with the

11 individual who drafted this report, a Mr. Ken Biser who is identified as

12 the SCvAO Sector North-East Tuzla? Are you familiar with that -- with

13 that person or that title designation within the --

14 A. No, I don't know that person.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. IVETIC: If we can please move to page 2 of the document, and

17 item number 1, I'd like to just have one or two questions about what is

18 there.

19 Q. And you can follow along with me, sir, it says:

20 "Escapees from Srebrenica have arrived at Tuzla airbase to join

21 up with their families. UNMOs, civil affairs and others have spoken

22 separately to several individuals who describe a similar ordeal. 12 to

23 15.000 left Srebrenica on 10 to 11 July. 5 to 6.000 crossed into BiH

24 2nd Corps-controlled territory in the southern Sapna area last night,

25 16 July. Up to 3.000 were killed on the way, mostly by mines and BSA

Page 15354

1 engagements. Unknown others were captured. Some committed suicide.

2 Unknown others went to Zepa."

3 Now, I want to ask you, did you have occasion to encounter, if

4 not perhaps this document, this information that up to 3.000 were killed

5 on the way mostly by mines and BSA engagements, unknown others were

6 captured, some committed suicide, unknown others went to Zepa? Did you

7 have occasion to come across that type of information?

8 A. Yes, I do remember now this report from before, and I can say you

9 see it's an early report from 17 July 1995, and it's -- you can see from

10 this report it's an estimate, and based on evidence we have now, it was

11 an estimate at the time, so how accurate again it is depends on different

12 facts. So we don't have a background information how this number was

13 obtained and from which sources.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, are we at the time for the break or do

16 we still have five minutes?

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have still five minutes.

18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.

19 Q. Then I'd like to move to another topic. As part of your

20 investigation, sir, did you have occasion to conclude that there were a

21 number of people killed, that is, a number of bodies in the town of

22 Srebrenica itself, some of which are seen on various video-tapes from

23 July of 1995?

24 A. Yes, there were some of them killed in Srebrenica town itself.

25 Q. I'd like to focus on those bodies for the moment. Did you ever

Page 15355

1 come across any conclusive evidence confirming where those bodies from

2 Srebrenica town were buried?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did, as part of your investigation, you come to a definitive

5 number as to how many such bodies there were from Srebrenica town?

6 A. As I still remember it wasn't many but there were few. You can

7 even see them on videos.

8 Q. Would you agree with me that they probably would have been buried

9 somewhere rather than being left in the open in Srebrenica town?

10 A. It's really difficult to say where they would be buried.

11 Q. My question -- perhaps you misunderstood. Not -- my question is

12 not where they would be buried but would you agree with me that they

13 probably would have been buried somewhere rather than being left in the

14 open in Srebrenica town?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. And of the --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question?

18 MR. IVETIC: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Probably everyone who dies will be buried or perhaps

20 will not be buried. There is any factual information to your knowledge

21 which allows you to give a better impression about what probably would

22 have been the case? Do you have any information?

23 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, for this specific case in

24 Srebrenica we don't have any information. I know for the Bratunac, for

25 the killings in Bratunac, in school and around the Vuk Karadzic school

Page 15356

1 the bodies were taken from there and from the stadium to Glogova mass

2 grave. So it's possible that those bodies were taken there as well as

3 part of the sanitation --

4 JUDGE ORIE: But you have no information.

5 THE WITNESS: But I have no information for the specific victims

6 from Srebrenica town.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

8 MR. IVETIC:

9 Q. You mentioned Glogova. Am I correct that both Glogova 1 and 2

10 are the graves closest to Srebrenica town itself?

11 A. Yes, primary, if you're talking about primary graves, yes.

12 Q. Yes, okay. Now, in relation to the Glogova site, I would like to

13 look at something with you, which is located at 1D1196, page 82, which

14 should correlate to transcript page 33648.

15 MR. IVETIC: And if we could focus on lines 6 through 20, I'd

16 like to examine those with the witness.

17 Q. Sir, you can follow along and it reads as follows:

18 "Q. Another interesting point to discuss is the fact that the

19 grave GL02-09 consists of a string of graves of various dimensions. This

20 implies that graves of different sizes were being excavated according to

21 the needs to dispose bodies therein and that there may have been a

22 relative time difference between the excavation of each of the graves.

23 At this point, it is not possible to precise what was the absolute time

24 difference between each of the burial episodes.

25 "Can you see that in front of you and do you agree with -- this

Page 15357

1 is what Mr. Baraybar's report reads?

2 "A. Yes, I see and I can agree.

3 "Q. Now that we have read this passage, is it consistent with

4 what Witness PW161 said and that we read a minute ago, that is to say

5 that there were several burials at different times, which is also clear

6 from the forensic evidence?

7 "A. Yes, we can say something like that, yes."

8 Can you confirm that the answers were accurately recorded in this

9 selection of the transcript from the Popovic case?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you stand by those answers as truthful such that you would

12 so testify here today if asked these same questions?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, now I believe we are at the break.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We are, but I have one short follow-up question.

17 Reading this, you were asked whether the report by Mr. Baraybar is

18 consistent with what another witness said, a witness we do not know who

19 that is and what he actually said but it's summarised here, and you said:

20 "Yes, we can say something like that." So the question was whether two

21 other witnesses are consistent in their statements and your answer is:

22 "Yes, we can say something like that."

23 Now, was -- did you mean to say that you share the views of those

24 two other witnesses or at least the Baraybar report and Witness PW161, or

25 did you just answer the question that the two answers are consistent?

Page 15358

1 THE WITNESS: I think the first one, Your Honour, that the views

2 of those two other witnesses are consistent so that would be my -- but --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Did you add anything that what you considered to be

4 consistent opinions or views that you shared that view or that that is a

5 possibility or what -- how do we exactly have to understand your answer?

6 THE WITNESS: Maybe we don't have the entire section here but in

7 this particular case I know what -- what is all about. It's a separate

8 grave in Glogova which was opened later, around 20 of July, so -- and

9 this is consistent with what those two witnesses have been saying or this

10 witness had been saying, that some bodies were buried in that particular

11 site later.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And is that your view as well?

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's what I wanted to explore. We

15 take a break of 20 minutes. Would you please follow the usher?

16 [The witness stands down]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could I inquire with you on where we

18 stand as far as time is concerned?

19 MR. IVETIC: We are still on track, I believe -- I believe we

20 might even be able to finish in the next session.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The next session. Then we will take the break and

22 we will resume at quarter past 12.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

Page 15359

1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, good afternoon.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry to interrupt you. I just wanted to ask

4 about the scheduling of the next witness, a protected witness.

5 Mr. Ivetic, I understand, is going to use most of this session. I may

6 have about 10 or 15 minutes of redirect examination so it seems unlikely

7 that we will reach him, or if so, just barely, and I was wondering

8 whether or not it might be appropriate to discharge him at this time

9 until tomorrow, as the witness is on stand-by presently.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, can you be a bit more precise? Would it

11 be 60 minutes or 50 minutes or?

12 [The witness takes the stand]

13 MR. IVETIC: It's probably 45 to 50 minutes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we could likely conclude the testimony of

15 this witness by the next break. During the break we could have the

16 protective measures organised and then we would still have half a session

17 to start with the next witness. So I would rather keep him on stand-by,

18 not promising anything at this moment, yes.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

22 Q. I'd like to take a look with you, sir, at 65 ter number 18698

23 from the Prosecution's list in e-court. First off, sir, can you verify

24 that this one-page corrigendum was authored by you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 15360

1 Q. Is the information in it true and correct, to the best of your

2 knowledge?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Now, in relation to the Kravica execution site and Glogova grave

5 site, in the middle of this page you discuss a total of, I believe,

6 12 people in the first bullet point and 103 total people plus one

7 truckload of bodies in the second bullet point as all being bodies from

8 Glogova that cannot be attributed to the Kravica execution site. Am I

9 right?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. You further conclude, and now I quote:

12 "Nevertheless, considering the presented figures regarding the

13 bodies buried in Glogova mass graves, as well as the above-mentioned

14 different sources, most of these 1319 individuals must be still directly

15 connected with the Kravica warehouse execution point. However, the exact

16 number cannot be provided."

17 Is that still your position?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this as the next

20 available exhibit number.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?

22 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 18698 will be Exhibit D342.

23 JUDGE ORIE: D342 in the absence of any objection is admitted

24 into evidence.

25 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 15361

1 Q. Now, Mr. Janc, I'd like to stay at the Kravica site for a related

2 topic.

3 MR. IVETIC: And to do so I would bring up 1D1193 in e-court.

4 Q. And now that we have it up on the screen I would ask that you

5 take a look at it, it's dated 18 September 2001 and purports to be from

6 field SOCO Tom Grange to chief forensic crime scene examiner. Are you

7 familiar with this document?

8 A. I think I've seen this document before.

9 Q. Okay. Now, this document talks of artefact evidence being taken

10 from Zeleni Jadar grave 6 to Kravica to try and compare and see if there

11 is a match. It states that one piece with white paint recovered from the

12 grave did not match anything at Kravica, but unfortunately that artefact

13 was lost and could not be located for turnover back into the custody of

14 the authorities. Do you have knowledge of this incident?

15 A. No, I don't have any knowledge on that incident. It's just what

16 we can read here.

17 Q. Would this provide some indication that bodies from Kravica were

18 mixed with bodies from some other source that is as of yet unknown at the

19 Zeleni Jadar grave that is mentioned?

20 A. Not necessarily. Just based on one piece of artefact found in

21 mass graves, because apart from that piece, there were many other

22 artefacts found which could be linked with Kravica warehouse.

23 Q. And that's why I ask you to please listen to my question.

24 A. Yes, I know your question, what was your question, so if we can

25 exclude based on that piece, you know, in Kravica warehouse, at least

Page 15362

1 that's my understanding and what I could read during the course of my

2 investigation, is that there was also a storage place before and many

3 other artefacts might be collected during the sanitation area there after

4 the mass execution. So it's possible that some other artefacts which

5 have not been really linked with the construction itself may be also

6 collected from the site itself and taken to secondary and primary and

7 secondary graves.

8 Q. That is one possible explanation. Is not another possible

9 explanation that the bodies from Kravica were mixed with bodies from some

10 unknown other source at Zeleni Jadar number 6?

11 A. You know from evidence we have so far, that there is a certain

12 number of individuals and that was exhibit which was just displayed

13 before which had not originated from Kravica event, that's true. There

14 --

15 Q. And that was Glogova?

16 A. It's Glogova, but Zeleni Jadar 6, it's a secondary grave to

17 Glogova primary grave.

18 Q. And I presume since you were not aware of this incident you did

19 not undertake to investigate anything in relation to --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, can you investigate anything you're not

21 aware of? Well, it's --

22 MR. IVETIC: The witness is talking about other --

23 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no, no --

24 MR. IVETIC: -- evidence. And I'd like to know did he

25 investigate this with respect to other evidence or is he just now

Page 15363

1 hypothesising.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.

3 MR. IVETIC: Okay.

4 Q. Did you exclude any bodies from Zeleni Jadar from your report

5 based on any concerns that they may have come from some other source that

6 could not be determined?

7 A. No. I presented the number how many of those individuals have

8 been found in Zeleni Jadar and I listed them in my report.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this as the next

11 available exhibit number in this case.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Number 65 ter 1D1193 will be Exhibit D343.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. I would now like to look at 1D1153 with you.

17 MR. IVETIC: And if we can please not broadcast that document.

18 Q. Sir, this is a chart prepared by Ms. Svetlana Radovanovic, a

19 Defence demographic expert, and was prepared and used in the Popovic

20 case. And first of all, sir, am I correct that you can read and

21 understand the portions of this chart that are in Serbo-Croatian on the

22 left-hand side?

23 A. Yes, I can.

24 Q. And secondly, sir, do you recall being shown this data and this

25 chart by the Defence during your testimony in the Popovic trial?

Page 15364

1 A. It's possible. I've been shown many of similar documents

2 throughout my testimonies so it's possible this one was also presented to

3 me, yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, this was a list prepared based on preliminary

5 information from the Bosnian Ministry of Defence that 137 persons who

6 were registered as BiH soldiers and who were recorded as having been

7 deceased in incidents prior to July 1995 were, in fact, included in the

8 Prosecution's list of dead from Srebrenica with some of them being

9 conclusively identified via ICMP DNA testing as being exhumed from the

10 Srebrenica mass graves. Am I correct that your investigation did not

11 undertake to review any records from the Ministry of Defence to ascertain

12 if such -- if such preliminary information was true?

13 A. No.

14 Q. No, you did not, or no, I'm not correct?

15 A. No, you're not correct.

16 Q. Okay. Can you tell me what efforts you undertook based upon

17 information from the Ministry of Defence to ascertain if persons

18 registered as having deceased or disappeared in incidents prior to

19 July 1995 are included on your list?

20 A. Personally, not many, but what I did was I consulted the

21 demographic unit, the OTP demographic experts on this issue and they were

22 the ones who in the name of the OTP requested further information from

23 the Ministry of --

24 Q. Defence?

25 A. -- Defence from the BiH on this issue. And I'm sure that they

Page 15365

1 are going, this demographic experts were going to testify in this case

2 and they would be the best source to answer these questions.

3 However, as my understanding is that during their verification

4 process, those individuals have been excluded or, you know, actually they

5 concluded that there is no reliable source of information for such

6 conclusion as you can see it here. And the fact that these individuals

7 have been found in secondary and primary graves related to Srebrenica

8 events would confirm quite opposite from my perspective because if, for

9 example, and I think I did check some names, and I found that, for

10 example, that they were found in a pile of bodies, so mixed together with

11 bodies or victims from the Srebrenica events. So it's -- it would

12 confirm quite opposite that these bodies are -- or these individuals have

13 indeed passed away during Srebrenica events and not before.

14 And the list which was compiled by the BiH Defence, as I'm told,

15 was based on different sources and, you know, there were different

16 reasons behind compiling such a list, so I'm not really aware anymore

17 about exact particular reasons, but I know that as it was assessed by the

18 demographic expert, this list hasn't been perceived as being really

19 reliable.

20 MR. IVETIC: Let's look at 65 ter 25923 on the Prosecution list.

21 Q. While we wait for it, I can tell you it's dated 2008 and arises

22 from developments in the Popovic trial and is from a Ms. Ewa Tabeau.

23 First of all, sir, is Ms. Tabeau the demographer that you consulted in

24 answer -- that you identified generally in the answer to your -- the last

25 question?

Page 15366

1 A. Yes, she is the one.

2 Q. If we can, first of all, look at the first paragraph, does this

3 appear to be the work that you just described generally that arose after

4 this information was raised in the Popovic trial as to the preliminary

5 information from the Ministry of Defence?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. IVETIC: If we can turn to page 2 in the English and page 3

8 in the B/C/S.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for the interpreters. Thank

10 you very much.

11 MR. IVETIC: I apologise to the interpreters.

12 Q. If we can focus on the third full paragraph from the top in the

13 English, and it reads as follows:

14 "Table 1 confirms that the per cent of the identified ABiH cases

15 is relation to the identified OTP missing is about 70 per cent (exactly

16 71 per cent for ICTY sites and 73 per cent for all sites). Secondly, it

17 points out that the number of identified ABiH cases exhumed from the ICTY

18 grave sites (2686) is much larger than the number of identified ABiH

19 cases from the non-ICTY grave sites (752; the sum of the two gives the

20 overall total of 3438 identified ABiH cases). Basically about

21 78 per cent of all identified ABiH cases were exhumed from the ICTY sites

22 as opposed to 22 per cent from non-ICTY sites."

23 Sir, were you aware of this finding that about 70 per cent of the

24 persons said to be victims of Srebrenica exhumed from ICTY sites were

25 registered as members of the Armija BiH?

Page 15367

1 A. Not about the exact number but I know there was a certain number

2 of them.

3 Q. Okay. If we look at the bottom of page 2 of the English

4 document, and this will be on page 4 in the B/C/S, it reads as follows:

5 "Having said this, I checked inconsistencies in reporting of date

6 of death/missing (DOD) for the ABiH records matched with the 2005 OTP

7 list of missing persons. I was unable to compare place of death (POD)

8 for those victims as POD is unavailable in the ABiH lists. A total of

9 220 ABiH records for those matched (5.371) with the OTP list have

10 inconsistent DOD."

11 It would thus appear that rather than the 137 that

12 Ms. Radovanovic found, Ms. Tabeau found 220 cases with inconsistent data

13 as to date of death from the ABiH lists and the Prosecution list. Were

14 you aware of such information?

15 A. Not in that many details, no.

16 Q. Did you take such information into account while preparing your

17 new updated report?

18 A. Yes, sure, I would -- and I did take this fact into

19 consideration. Perhaps not in that way but what I included in my report

20 were cases, individuals which were actually identified as being missing

21 after the fall of Srebrenica and that they appear on the ICMP list. So

22 whether or not now those 220 cases are included, I cannot tell you

23 because I would need the names and I would need to compare it --

24 Q. Of course.

25 A. -- and it would take some time but it's possible. But, you know,

Page 15368

1 as I explained just before, it would prove quite opposite when and where

2 and how perhaps were these people executed, killed, or how they have

3 died.

4 Q. I would like to look at another document on this topic with

5 you --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, inconsistencies is one issue but of

7 course the next question, which is the correct information? Could the

8 witness answer whether it was established whether either the -- your

9 findings or the registered findings of the BiH Ministry of Defence were

10 accurate?

11 THE WITNESS: It would now be just -- it would be a hearsay what

12 I heard from the demographic expert. As I still remember, she was

13 telling me that they were not reliable data. To what extent and to what

14 and why, so we would need to consult -- I would need to consult her again

15 and to see what she has to say on that one.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ivetic, I think that this report may

17 contain some information, I don't know whether you want to tender this or

18 not, but can the Chamber then also rely on information such as 127 have

19 been corrected by the FPH Ministry of Defence in 2003? Is that --

20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, and we are coming to the next -- the next

21 document is also a follow-up to this --

22 JUDGE ORIE: I found it in this document already on page 3, where

23 the inconsistencies are to some extent resolved.

24 MR. IVETIC: According to the OTP's demographer, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore I'm asking you whether we can rely on what

Page 15369

1 is -- if you tender this document, whether we can rely on that

2 information as well because if the document is tendered ...

3 MR. IVETIC: Well, he did not draft this document. I was

4 thinking to save it for Ms. Tabeau but I -- it's up to the Prosecution if

5 they want to tender it now. I don't know what weight it has now as to

6 matters that this witness --

7 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, I would specifically request that it be

8 addressed with Dr. Tabeau who is a scheduled witness in this case.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it's -- should it then be marked for

10 identification so that that we know that it has been dealt with --

11 MR. IVETIC: That's fine.

12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- this witness. Then could we -- before we move to

14 the next document, Mr. Registrar, could we assign a number for this

15 document we MFI'd?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter number 25923 will be

17 MFI D344.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And keeps that status and we will revisit matter, I

19 do understand, when Ms. Tabeau appears to give her testimony.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

21 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. The next document is

22 number 25876 and I would ask that we please do not broadcast the same to

23 comply with the non-disclosure of certain information on it that, as

24 I understand, we still have not gotten approval to release.

25 Q. Sir, this is a table prepared by Helge Brunborg, Ewa Tabeau, and

Page 15370

1 Arve Hetland of the Prosecution demographic team and relates to these

2 cases of persons for whom the dates of death provided problems, and Mr.

3 Brunborg testified that this table reflected the corrected information or

4 verifications sought from the BiH Ministry of Defence. And I propose to

5 look at the last few entries on the first page of this chart and I think

6 you could see that of those four, one is listed as having been exhumed at

7 Branjevo, one exhumed at Cancari Road 3, and one at Rahunici. And I

8 think you could see that the middle column is DOD -- I apologise.

9 MR. IVETIC: Are we at the bottom of the page? Yeah.

10 Q. And the middle column is DOD corrected and POD corrected. And if

11 we look at the last four persons on this page of the list, the date of

12 death has now been corrected as being 12 July 1995 instead of

13 January 1994 as had been originally reported.

14 Now, according to the letter from Ms. Tabeau and the section that

15 Judge Orie just made reference to, this was enough for her to stop her

16 review and conclude that this was a Srebrenica victim. But I would ask

17 that you please look at the corrected POD, or place of death, that has

18 now been verified by the BiH Ministry of Defence, and for these four, it

19 is recorded as - and it's in B/C/S, I apologise to the translators but

20 I'll be switching to B/C/S - [Interpretation] The Srebrenica-Tuzla road,

21 Buljim village, Srebrenica-Tuzla road, Srebrenica-Tuzla road."

22 [In English] Now, sir, can you confirm for me based on your

23 investigations that these places and in particular Buljim refer to

24 locations where the column of Srebrenica males engaged minefields and was

25 engaged by the Serb forces in combat?

Page 15371

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, if we were to look at this list in its entirety, I think we

3 would see that for a great number of the instances where the dates have

4 now been changed to July of 1995, the BiH ministry has also confirmed

5 that the place of death is either the road from Srebrenica to Tuzla or

6 the village of Buljim. Based on what you know, sir, can we on that bases

7 exclude that these men perished from combat casualties or is the opposite

8 true, that there is a considerable likelihood that they were in fact

9 combat dead rather than executions?

10 A. You know it's difficult to see and to conclude anything just

11 based on this list because I would need to review it more formally and

12 analyse all these sources and then to make a conclusion on that. It's --

13 you know, even whether or not now these individuals are indeed included

14 in my report, I don't know from this list, so I would need to make

15 additional inquiries so only that I would be able to respond. But if

16 they are included into my report, you know, it's the proof that those

17 individuals have been executed somewhere else than most probably

18 initially reported as being killed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, the last part of your answer,

20 initially reported as being killed. Being killed far earlier, is that

21 what you wanted to refer to?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, as initially reported to the ABiH

23 Ministry of Defence. So you would need to review all these sources more

24 carefully and then to find out what is the problem. So I haven't been

25 going into deep analysis of this list so I can't say. So in order to

Page 15372

1 tell anything right now, I would need to review it more deeply.

2 MR. IVETIC:

3 Q. I agree that there is more work that needs to be done to review

4 these things to come to a conclusion, but I just want to make sure that

5 you understood that the place of death that I read out is not the initial

6 place of death that was incorrectly recorded. It's the confirmed place

7 of death as reported by the Ministry of BiH when they in fact changed the

8 date of death and responded to the inquiries of the Office of the

9 Prosecutor to verify the initial information. Having that in mind, does

10 your answer change?

11 A. No, not really because I would need to see what was the reason

12 for them to and what sources they were used in order to confirm certain

13 facts.

14 Q. Fair enough. Now, I would like to look at one more name on the

15 list without mentioning the name. It's the entry marked as ICMP 202/2

16 which is just three lines up from the first of the four individuals we

17 were just looking at at the bottom of page 1. Here we see the notation

18 that verification was requested and yet there is not any new date. Do

19 you know if that means that verification verified the 1994 date of death

20 for this person found in Zeleni Jadar number 5? Again it's ICMP --

21 A. Yes, I see.

22 Q. -- protocol number 202/02?

23 A. I see the entry. I'm just checking your question again. No,

24 I don't really think I can answer you this question -- you know, this

25 question, because it's the same problem, you know, about sources which

Page 15373

1 were used for compiling this list.

2 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Then I'd like to move to another topic.

3 Yesterday you testified about blindfolds and ligatures at transcript

4 pages 15231 and 15230. Now, your report, P1987 MFI'd, dated June of

5 2013, I've looked through it and it only references one ligature found at

6 Bljeceva 1, which is at page 24 of annex A, and 18 ligatures and four

7 blindfolds as to Bisina, which is page 26 of annex A. And when I look at

8 your previous reports, I also do not find any totals of additional

9 blindfold and ligatures. So when you yesterday said that you had updated

10 the numbers, is it -- were you updating numbers from your reports or were

11 you perhaps updating the numbers from Dean Manning's year 2000 report as

12 to blindfolds and ligatures? That wasn't clear to me so if you could

13 please tell me which is it.

14 A. Yes, on top of the numbers or figures which were included in

15 Dean Manning's report I also counted the blindfolds and ligatures which

16 were found in subsequent years. So for that I have used -- I've reviewed

17 the exhumation records on every single exhumation site, primary and

18 secondary graves, so that's how I was -- I came up with the total figure.

19 Q. Okay. And you'll agree with me that there are no total figures

20 in your reports that you prepared from 2009 to present date?

21 A. There are, you will find the total figures but they are wrong.

22 They are actually -- now we have, I think, a double number.

23 Q. Fair enough. Now, Sunday evening we were provided with an

24 information report arising from your proofing session with the

25 Prosecution dated 18 August 2013. In that report, the Prosecution states

Page 15374

1 as follows:

2 "The witness reviewed his 2013 report, 65 ter number 30169, and

3 confirmed its accuracy to his current information. The witness noted

4 that his 2013 report does not present updated figures for blindfolds and

5 ligatures recovered from Srebrenica-related grave sites and that these

6 figures had not been updated. However, several graves have since been

7 exhumed including two or three new individual graves and Zalazje 2 and

8 Kaldrmica, included in the 2013 report. Both contain the remains of

9 individuals appearing on the ICMP DNA match list, P01727, and the ICRC

10 list of Srebrenica missing. The witness further noted that the number of

11 blindfolds and ligatures reported by Manning in 2000 have substantially

12 increased, see PO 1735, page 16."

13 First of all, sir, is this information that I received from the

14 Office of the Prosecutor correct and truthful?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. Are all of the additional blindfolds and ligatures that you

17 testified about yesterday in fact coming from two or three new individual

18 graves and Zalazje 2 and Kaldrmica?

19 A. No, in fact I haven't included any of ligatures or found any of

20 ligatures and blindfolds in these two graves.

21 Q. Okay. Then I need to know what other sites did you review that

22 yielded the new additional blindfolds or ligatures that you are

23 testifying about?

24 A. So these are all the sites along Cancari Road.

25 Q. All or just the ones that were excavated after 2000?

Page 15375

1 A. What I'm adding is just the ones which were excavated after

2 Dean Manning's report.

3 Q. Fair enough.

4 A. And the same goes for all the secondary graves on Hodzici road,

5 secondary graves in Liplje, and that's it.

6 Q. Great. That's what I was looking for, sir. Now, these

7 additional ligatures and blindfolds that were the subject of your

8 testimony yesterday from these locations, were they discovered loose in

9 graves or were they affixed to bodies that were in the graves?

10 A. As I still recall they were -- most of them were fixed to the

11 bodies. Some of them were also loose but minority of them.

12 Q. When you say minority of them are you referring to the ones that

13 were loose?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Now, were these -- were any of these suspected blindfolds

16 and ligatures discovered in areas surrounding the graves or at the

17 surface rather than being buried at the same depth as the human remains?

18 A. I don't recall such instances. They were all found inside the

19 grave.

20 Q. Okay. And did I understand you correctly to say that the source

21 that you reviewed was the exhumation records from the -- would it be the

22 BiH authorities that did those exhumations?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, Dean Manning testified at this trial that he personally

25 examined every artefact before concluding whether or not it could be

Page 15376

1 included or excluded as a potential ligature or blindfold for purposes of

2 his report. Did you perform that type of exhaustive physical review of

3 the artefacts that you are testifying about?

4 A. No, I didn't have that possibility because at the time, at that

5 time, the graves were exhumed by the ICTY and I didn't have access to

6 artefacts which were found by the BiH authorities during the exhumations

7 they were conducting.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. What I'm getting is information from the records which were

10 provided to us on exhumation itself.

11 Q. Okay. Now, if we take that your testimony is to additional

12 blindfolds and ligatures updating Mr. Manning's 2000 figures, by my math

13 that would mean that the additional grave sites which you mentioned which

14 were exhumed from the year 2000 to present yielded a total of 145

15 additional suspected blindfolds. Does that number sound right?

16 A. Yes, it may be. The total number now is 593.

17 Q. And I can tell you that at the time of Mr. Manning's report it

18 was 448 as evidenced by P1734, page 1.

19 Now, for these 145 additional suspected blindfolds, do you know

20 how many were recovered affixed around the head or affixed to some other

21 part of the body?

22 A. No, I don't have that information.

23 Q. Now, as to ligatures, the same source, P1734, page 1, identifies

24 that Mr. Manning found 423 suspected ligatures, and by my math, that

25 would mean that with your figures, the graves that you mentioned that

Page 15377

1 were exhumed post 2000, yielded 351 additional ligatures. Does that

2 sound right?

3 A. Yes, the total now is 774.

4 Q. Thank you for that. Now, based on your evidence yesterday, can

5 we conclude that the vast majority of these 351 additional ligatures came

6 from the Cancari site rather than being in relation to any of the other

7 sites? I believe you mentioned yesterday 200-and-some from Cancari?

8 A. They are from Cancari and Liplje sites.

9 Q. Okay. Would be the majority of these?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And -- okay, you've already answered that you can't tell

12 us except that a minority were found loose.

13 Then I'd like to move to my last topic and my last few questions,

14 sir, which is in relation to Godinjske Bare, and you testified yesterday

15 at transcript page 15250 to 15252 about that location. You said this

16 site was the execution and recovery site for six bodies killed by the

17 Skorpion Unit and that this was roughly around 20 July 1995. Now, in

18 this trial, Ms. Erin Gallagher from the Prosecution testified that the

19 investigations that were conducted into this incident and the video

20 cannot exclude the possibility that these particular killings occurred as

21 late as 24 July 2013. And that's at transcript page 10136 to 10137.

22 Would you defer to this formulation as being a more accurate

23 description rather than what you said which was around 20 July?

24 A. Yes, it's more accurate, definitely.

25 Q. And do you agree with that?

Page 15378

1 A. Yes, I agree.

2 Q. And in relation to the so-called Skorpion video of this execution

3 at Godinjske Bare, first of all, sir, have you had occasion to view the

4 video in question?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Would you confirm for me that General Ratko Mladic is not present

7 for any of the executions by the Skorpions of persons at Godinjske Bare?

8 A. Yes, I can confirm that, yes.

9 Q. Could you confirm that none of the participants in the video

10 mention General Mladic as having directed or ordered these executions or

11 that he would be apprised of the same?

12 A. It's difficult to confirm that because it may be because I know

13 that these members of the Skorpion Unit were arrested in Serbia after

14 that and they testified about the incident, so if any of them referred to

15 General Mladic as being the one who directed them, I cannot really --

16 Q. I'm asking you about the video, sir.

17 A. If you're talking about the video itself, no, that one is clear.

18 Q. And in relation to the location, Godinjske Bare, that geographic

19 location where these killings occurred and the bodies were found is, in

20 fact, much closer to Sarajevo than it is to Srebrenica. Am I correct?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. And in fact, to travel to Godinjske Bare from Srebrenica, one

23 would have to go either through or around Sarajevo first; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Most probably, but I would need to consult the map and also we

Page 15379

1 have to take into consideration, you know, the state on the ground at the

2 time.

3 Q. Of course. Of course.

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. Now, as to the providence of this Skorpion video of this

6 execution crime, am I correct that the same only became known to exist in

7 the year 2003 and was obtained by the Office of the Prosecutor of this

8 Tribunal in 2004?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Sir --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, for the last many, many questions,

12 I wondered whether there was any dispute about those facts. When it was

13 found, what, whether it's closer to Sarajevo, I mean is there any dispute

14 about these matters? Mr. Vanderpuye.

15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. There isn't a dispute

16 about it but I don't know whether Mr. Ivetic is simply laying the basis

17 for --

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I was just asking you whether there was a

19 dispute about it.

20 Mr. Ivetic, I interrupted you when you started saying -- you

21 started by saying, "Okay," and then you wanted to follow-up.

22 MR. IVETIC: Yes. My follow-up was going to be to thank the

23 witness for his answers. I'm finished.

24 JUDGE ORIE: I will -- I take it that will be appreciated by the

25 witness. And it also confirms that it was not the basis for follow-up

Page 15380

1 questions.

2 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, there is one correction or,

4 rather, I should ask for a clarification for the transcript. It's at

5 page 68, line 19, and it's framed as part of the question that Mr. Ivetic

6 put as to the date of the Skorpions killings. And he says as late as

7 24 July 2013, and I would assume that he meant 1995, but I'm not sure

8 about that so I'd ask for a clarification.

9 MR. IVETIC: 1995. 1995. I apologise, I misspoke. It was an

10 error on my part. It was intended as being 1995.

11 Q. And I would ask the witness if that's how he understood my

12 question and if his answer should be understood in that same manner?

13 A. Yes, I can confirm that, yes.

14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm done.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

16 Mr. Vanderpuye, any questions in re-examination?

17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do have a few, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

20 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

21 Q. Mr. Janc, quite briefly, you were asked a number of questions

22 about combat-related casualties as concerns the contents of your report.

23 Now, you've been an investigator in the Srebrenica crimes for a number of

24 years. With respect to the locations where the primary mass grave sites

25 are found, are you aware of any ongoing combat activity in and around the