Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15400

 1                           Wednesday, 21 August 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  The Chamber has not heard

11     of any preliminaries to be raised.

12             There is one request.  Mr. Stojanovic, I don't think we already

13     received an estimate of the time for cross-examination of the witness,

14     the next witness.  Do you have one?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  We have

16     conveyed this to the Prosecution and we expect this to last up to two

17     hours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We heard possibly two and a half hours on our

19     list with a question mark so that's triggered up to two hours.  That's up

20     to two and a half hours.  No, up to two hours, you said, yes.  Then in

21     view of the fact that protective measures apply for the next witness, we

22     have to move into closed session to allow the witness to enter the

23     courtroom but before we do so, Mr. Groome?

24             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, before we do that, the witness after

25     this witness is expert Robert Donia.  On Monday the Defence filed a

Page 15401

 1     written application raising a number of issues.  The Prosecution would

 2     ask an opportunity to address those issues orally prior to the start of

 3     that witness and we anticipate it would take 10 to 15 minutes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And would you consider that we should wait

 5     until after we have finished the witness next to be called.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it's not entirely clear -- one second,

 8     please.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, do we understand that your oral

11     submissions would amount to a response to the decision on relating to

12     expert witness Robert Donia?  Or is it related to this matter raised by

13     the Defence on which the Chamber would like to decide before the witness

14     starts his examination.

15             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then why not do it right away so that we have

17     an opportunity to consider that at least during the break?  Of course,

18     you'll understand that we started thinking about the application made by

19     the Defence and the sooner we know what the position of the Prosecution

20     is, the better it would be.

21             MR. GROOME:  Ms. Bibles will be addressing the Chamber on this

22     matter.  I can have her --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then -- if she would do that the last 10 to 15

24     minutes before the end of the first session this morning.

25             MR. GROOME:  [Overlapping speakers]

Page 15402

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So on from quarter past 10.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Okay.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we turn into closed session in order to

 4     allow the witness to enter the courtroom.

 5                           [Closed session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in open session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Witness RM249, when you

15     entered the courtroom, the curtains were down because you'll testify with

16     protective measures; that is, first, we will not use your own name and we

17     will avoid any reference to who you are.  Second, no one outside this

18     courtroom will see your face.

19             Having explained this, before you give evidence the rules require

20     that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which will now be handed

21     out to you by the usher.  May I invite to you make that solemn

22     declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  WITNESS RM249

Page 15403

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Witness 249.  Please be seated.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll first be examined by Mr. Vanderpuye,

 4     who is counsel for the Prosecution.  You'll find him to your right.

 5     Mr. Vanderpuye, you may proceed.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning to you,

 7     Your Honours, good morning everyone.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 9        Q.   Good morning to you, Witness.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   Before we get started I just want to remind you to try to keep

12     your voice up, try to speak a little bit more slowly than you would

13     normally, which will allow the interpreters to convey perhaps more

14     accurately what you say in response to the questions that I ask you, and

15     also let me know if there is anything that I've asked that is unclear and

16     I'll do my best to try and rephrase it so we can better understand one

17     another.

18             Let me first start by showing you 65 ter 30175.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It should not be broadcast, please.

20        Q.   And I'll ask you, sir, to have a look at this document and

21     without saying what's on it, if you can confirm that you are the person

22     named in it.

23        A.   Yes.  I am the person mentioned in this document.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President I would tender this document at

Page 15404

 1     this time.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 30175 will be Exhibit P1989 under

 4     seal, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P1989 is admitted under seal.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   Witness, do you recall having provided a statement to the Office

 8     of the Prosecutor dated 24 January 1996?

 9        A.   Yes, I do remember giving a statement on this particular date.

10        Q.   Do you also recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor

11     versus Tolimir on the 18th of March 2010?

12        A.   Yes.  I equally remember appearing as a witness in this case.

13        Q.   Were your testimony and statement truthful when you gave them

14     respectively?

15        A.   Yes, they were completely truthful.

16        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review both your statement from

17     24 January 1996 and the testimony that you provided in the Tolimir case

18     prior to testifying here today?

19        A.   Yes.  I have had such an opportunity.

20        Q.   And in the case of your testimony, did you have an opportunity to

21     listen to the audio recording of your appearance?

22        A.   Yes, I did that as well.

23        Q.   Having reviewed your testimony and your 24 January 1996 statement

24     can you confirm that they reflect what you said on those occasions

25     respectively?

Page 15405

 1        A.   Yes.  That's it.

 2        Q.   And do they fairly and accurately reflect what you would say if

 3     you were to be examined here today and I were to put to you those same

 4     questions?

 5        A.   Yes.  For the most part, it would be identical.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President at this time I would tender both

 7     the statement and the testimony under Rule 92 ter.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but before we proceed, I think we need 65 ter

 9     numbers.

10             But before doing so, Witness, you said for the most part it would

11     be identical.  Did you mean to say that in substance it would be

12     identical or is there any part where you distance yourself from it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't distance myself from it.

14     I said that the entire statement is fully and completely truthful and

15     accurate.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Vanderpuye, the 65 ter numbers?

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The 65 ter number for

18     the statement is 30176.  I would tender it under seal.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 30176 will be Exhibit P1990 under

23     seal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  P1990 is admitted under seal.  The excerpt of the

25     transcript, Mr. Vanderpuye?

Page 15406

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  It is 65 ter number 30177.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 30177 will be Exhibit P1991, Your

 4     Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Also under seal, I take it?  There is no need to do

 6     that?  Let me just check.  Yes.  It is in open session.  Then P1991 is

 7     admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would also tender the

 9     associated exhibits at this time that are referenced in the testimony.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.  Could you give us the 65 ter

11     numbers for them?

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  65 ter 05024.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I first ask, Mr. Stojanovic, is there any

14     objection against any of the associated exhibits?  No, there is not.  Or

15     is there?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Vanderpuye, if you read the 65 ter number

18     then the Registrar will immediately assign a number to it.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  They are 65 ter

20     numbers 05024.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1992, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P1992 is admitted.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  05248.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1993, Your Honours.

Page 15407

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P1993 is admitted.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  05025.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1994.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P1994 is admitted.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  05026.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1995, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P1995 is admitted.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  05286.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P1996, I assume under seal,

10     Your Honours.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, under seal.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P1996 admitted under seal.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And the last document I plan to use with the

14     witness, so I won't be tendering it at this time.  I hopefully will be

15     able to have enough time to use it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. President, I have a summary of the witness's statement or

19     evidence I'd like to read.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You explained to the witness the purpose of it?

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I believe I have.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness it will be read so that the public

23     knows more or less what is in your written statement, which allows the

24     public to better understand the remainder of your testimony.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 15408

 1             The witness moved to Srebrenica in 1983.  Soon after the war

 2     broke out, he was wounded in a shelling incident and suffered a serious

 3     shrapnel injury.  In July 1995, the witness lived in Srebrenica with his

 4     family.  They left Srebrenica on 11 July for Potocari seeking the

 5     protection of UNPROFOR.  When the witness and his family arrived in

 6     Potocari, they took refuge in a building where they spent the night.  On

 7     12 July, when the removal of the population began, the witness recognised

 8     many people he knew.  Realising that Serb soldiers were separating men

 9     from their families, he searched for a place to hide.  He eventually

10     found a group of broken down buses to which he and his family moved

11     during the night.  In the early morning of 13 July, the witness's wife

12     went to get water.  When she returned she told the witness that she had

13     seen blood on the ground floor of one of the houses nearby.  They decided

14     to try to leave Potocari and join the crowd of refugees trying to do the

15     same around 8.00 a.m. that morning.

16             The witness carried his young daughter through to a check-point

17     where he waited for his wife and mother who had fallen behind.  They

18     eventually managed to get on to or into an overcrowded bus through the

19     back door.  The witness sat on the floor to avoid detection.  The bus

20     left Potocari proceeding in the direction of Bratunac and was soon

21     stopped at Magasici.  The witness could hear someone outside asking

22     whether there were any men on the bus.  The bus then travelled toward

23     Kravica then toward Milici, being stopped at both locations.  Throughout

24     the journey the bus was similarly stopped about nine or ten times before

25     reaching Luke around 10.00 a.m.  At Luke everyone was made to leave the

Page 15409

 1     bus.  The witness who was carrying his young daughter was ordered to give

 2     her over to his wife and he complied.

 3             He was taken a short distance to the school by a Serb soldier who

 4     said that he recognised the witness from a previous -- from his previous

 5     workplace.  He warned the witness to answer all questions or he would be

 6     beaten.

 7             Outside the school, the witness was placed next to another

 8     prisoner and subsequently had his hands bound.  By dusk, the prisoners

 9     numbered about 22.  The witness recalled several of their names.

10             Sometime after 9.00 p.m. the prisoners were brought into the

11     school one by one.  Inside a classroom, they were searched, had their

12     property taken, and verbally and physically abused by the Serb soldiers.

13             The witness was bloodied by a blow with a pipe to his head.

14     Shortly after midnight, on the morning of 14 July --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you switch off -- one second, please,

16     Mr. Mladic, if you consult with counsel, it's better to switch off your

17     microphone, which has now been done.  Please proceed, Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Shortly after midnight on the morning of 14 July, the prisoners

20     were ordered on to a military truck.  Several armed Serb soldiers also

21     got in.  They drove in the direction of Vlasenica before turning off on

22     to a gravel road and continuing to the execution point.  There, the

23     soldiers took up positions, began pulling prisoners off the truck and

24     then executing them.  Two men were shot trying to escape.  But the

25     witness managed to flee under fire and made it to some nearby bushes

Page 15410

 1     where he hid behind a rock to avoid being hit.  He went down a steep

 2     slope, winding up near a stream where he remained in the dark.  The

 3     witness subsequently heard strong gunfire coming from the area from which

 4     with he had fled, lasting about ten minutes.  He concluded the remaining

 5     prisoners had been killed.  He stayed put until dawn and then set out.

 6     After two weeks, on 27 July 1995, the witness arrived in the free

 7     territory.

 8             Mr. President, that concludes my summary and I have a few

 9     additional questions for the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed and take care that you finish

11     approximately by quarter past up to 20 minutes past 10.00.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Witness, at paragraph -- rather at page 2 of your statement, you

14     speak about the injury that you suffered in 1992.  This is the shrapnel

15     injury that I've just mentioned.  In relation to that injury, were you

16     subsequently able to perform any military activities?

17        A.   Yes.  I was wounded by a shell fired from the Serbian side, that

18     happened on the 14th of May 1992.  It was a serious wound to the right

19     knee of my leg, so for a long time I was immobile, I was bed ridden in a

20     house of a schoolmate of mine.  Later on I was able to walk with one

21     crutch.  You asked me whether I was able to be a member of Defence forces

22     in the town of Srebrenica.  I can tell you quite frankly and honestly

23     that I wasn't able to do that and neither was I doing it later.

24        Q.   Did that include 1995, the period in which you left Srebrenica?

25        A.   Yes, yes.  The entire time that I spent between the date I was

Page 15411

 1     wounded until the date I left Srebrenica, I was not engaged as a member

 2     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I just wanted to ask you a few questions about the

 4     period before you left Srebrenica, and in particular I'd like to focus

 5     you, if I could, in the time period between January and July 1995.  Could

 6     you tell us what the conditions were like living in Srebrenica during

 7     that period of time?

 8        A.   It is difficult to describe the situation in Srebrenica relating

 9     to a total blockade that the town was under.  The people of Srebrenica,

10     who were confined there, tried in a variety of ways to survive in the

11     surrounded town, although at that time Srebrenica enjoyed the status of a

12     protected area, all the provisions and everything that was supposed to be

13     implemented was never implemented in Srebrenica and by that I mean the

14     protection of the people of Srebrenica or the supply of food necessary

15     for Srebrenica.  Although there were attempts to provide that, convoys

16     were often stopped, turned back, and only partial deliveries were made

17     after they passed the check-point in Bratunac.  So all in all, what

18     reached Srebrenica was only what the people who controlled it wished to

19     be delivered to the people.  In other words, there was never sufficient

20     food or medical supplies delivered to the surrounded town of Srebrenica.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, before you continue, the Chamber

22     noticed that this first question was first of all on a matter on which we

23     have heard evidence again and again and again.  To that extent, it's very

24     repetitious.  Second, you put a very open question to the witness, which

25     understandably leads him to give a long answer.  I would like to remind

Page 15412

 1     you that you're limited in your time.  You announced 30 minutes.  And the

 2     Chamber is not seeking repetitious evidence on matters on which we heard

 3     much and detailed evidence.  Please keep that in mind for the 12 to 17

 4     minutes that are left.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I was just about to

 6     ask another area.

 7        Q.   When you decided to leave Srebrenica, did you feel that you had a

 8     choice to remain?

 9        A.   It was impossible for me to remain there because the hatred that

10     was growing among the Serb soldiers was such that everyone who lived in

11     the blockaded Srebrenica, should they have decided to remain in

12     Srebrenica, they would have died definitely.

13        Q.   When you reached Potocari, and ultimately decided to get on the

14     bus to leave, did you feel at that point that you had any prospect of

15     remaining either there or in Srebrenica or returning at some future

16     point?

17        A.   No.  At that point, one couldn't possibly think about remaining

18     because that would spell definite death.  The only place -- way to save

19     one self was to leave Srebrenica.  At the time, I was pondering certain

20     options given that I had this severe wound.

21        Q.   You mentioned in your statement, and that's at page 8 in the

22     English and page 9 in the B/C/S, you mentioned that you learned of the

23     location where the execution occurred or where were you brought to be

24     executed from others.  You indicated in your statement that it was in the

25     area of Rasica Gaj and the Cikotska river.  Do you recall that?

Page 15413

 1        A.   Yes.  When I managed to escape the shooting by the Serb soldiers,

 2     for seven days I walked alone through forested area until I met a group.

 3     This group was made up of people who were familiar with this area, and

 4     I also recognised the location where we were taken.  One man explained to

 5     me the name of that place, and that's the name that you mentioned,

 6     Rasica Gaj, so it just happened that I came across this man with whom

 7     later on I tried to find a way to a free territory.  We met at this

 8     specific location and he told me that the place was called Rasica Gaj.

 9        Q.   What I'd like to do is just ask you a few questions about some of

10     the people that you mention in your statement.  First of all, you

11     mentioned a number of names and I wanted to ask you if you first of all

12     can recall those and if you can recall any last names of the people that

13     you mentioned.

14        A.   Yes.  All the names that I mentioned, some of their last names

15     I did not mention, though, because I cannot remember them even now.  If

16     I mentioned them in my statement, I can still remember them to this day.

17        Q.   Okay.  You mentioned two individuals, one named Fuad and someone

18     named Alija, and that's at page 4 of your statement.  You mentioned them

19     together.  What I wanted to ask you was do you recall those two

20     individuals, and were they related, to your recollection?

21        A.   Yes.  I remember mentioning these two names that you cited.

22     I clearly remember that when they were brought in during the day when

23     I was brought before them, these two were brothers.  A Serb soldier

24     disclosed their names when the two addressed him and greeted them as a

25     neighbour.  In return he cursed their mother, stating that they were no

Page 15414

 1     longer neighbours, and during a short altercation between them, they told

 2     him their names, that they came from a village close to his village, and

 3     that their names were Fuad and Alija.  Later on, this would be confirmed

 4     upon their arrival in the free territory, and by that I mean that they

 5     had been brought in there.

 6        Q.   Do you remember an individual by the name of Rizo?

 7        A.   Yes.  I remember Rizo.  His last name is Mustafic, and

 8     I mentioned that as well.  This gentleman worked in the DutchBat in

 9     Potocari as an electrician.  During the fall of Srebrenica, he happened

10     to be in the capture area where I was.  He was brought in and took to be

11     executed in the same manner and he was shot dead there because he never

12     appeared as a live person later on.

13        Q.   And do you remember an individual named Azem?

14        A.   Yes.  He was another gentleman who disclosed his identity when

15     questioned by Serb soldiers.  The Serb soldiers asked him where he had

16     been wounded.  He had a severe wound and moved with difficulty.  And he

17     explained about a place in a forest near Srebrenica.  They looked

18     suspiciously at him and said that it was possible that he had been

19     wounded in another place.

20        Q.   Was his last name Becic, to your recollection?

21        A.   Yes, yes.  His last name was Becic.  That's what I said in my

22     statement.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Just for the Chamber's reference, I would refer

25     the Chamber to Exhibit P1987 and P1727.  For the first one, I would refer

Page 15415

 1     the Chamber to page 34 in e-court, relative to information provided by

 2     Mr. Janc, and in the corresponding site code for the Chamber's reference,

 3     to P1727.

 4             Witness, I'm almost out of time and what I'd like to ask you is

 5     if you would describe for the Chamber what it was like for you when you

 6     reached Luke and were told to hand your daughter over to your wife and to

 7     go with the soldier.

 8        A.   It's difficult to describe that situation.  Upon -- so the bus

 9     arrived to the final destination where everybody had to leave the bus,

10     and the whole time prior to that I was hidden in the bus.  I wanted to

11     hide.  That was the first reason.  And the second reason was that

12     I couldn't stand because my knee was severely injured.  So I sat on the

13     floor of the bus the entire time, and when everybody left the bus I had

14     to leave the bus as well.

15             Upon leaving the bus, I saw a lot of Serbian soldiers checking

16     everybody leaving the bus.  My daughter was four years old and she was

17     skinny, quite a skinny child, half the weight of other four year olds,

18     and she was quite attached to me, so I was carrying her, and I took her

19     into my arms.  Then a Serb soldier said that I had to turn over the child

20     and go with them.  I resigned myself to that.  I had to do that.  And

21     I went with the soldiers.

22             I made a movement with my head to see my daughter for the last

23     time.  He pushed me with the rifle and said, "Move forward."  And

24     I moved.  He addressed a man who sat on an elevation by the road, and he

25     said to him, "Major, where should we go?"  And this major, whom he

Page 15416

 1     addressed, indicated with his hand that we should go back, and

 2     I continued going there with the man who escorted me.  At the same time,

 3     he said that he knew me, he said, "I know you from somewhere."  And then

 4     he said, "Do you know me?"  I looked at his face and I told him I didn't

 5     know him.  He said, "You must know me.  You just don't remember me.

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we briefly move into private session?

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Witness.

Page 15417

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So we continued moving into the

 2     background from the direction where the buses had come from.  We

 3     continued walking and moved for some 200 or 250 metres, at which point in

 4     time I saw a facility, it was an elementary school.  The Serb soldier

 5     indicated with his hand that we should go to the yard of the school.  On

 6     the way there, he said that --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there?  I think you have, by far,

 8     answered the question that was put to you by Mr. Vanderpuye which was

 9     focused on the moment where you had to hand over your daughter.

10             Mr. Vanderpuye, any further questions?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I have no further questions,

13     I see that my time has expired.

14        Q.   Witness I want to thank you for appearing and for your testimony.

15        A.   Thank you for the questions you put to me.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about your last exhibit or your last

17     document you wanted to tender and use with the witness?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I don't think I have the time to do it.  But

19     I may have the time yet following the cross-examination.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's not the usual way of dealing with those

21     matters, Mr. Vanderpuye.  The best way, I don't know how important the

22     document is you want to tender with the witness, but the best way of

23     course is to keep a tight control of the examination-in-chief and to

24     avoid repetition.

25             But Witness, we will take a break now.  That break will be

Page 15418

 1     approximately half an hour for you.  After the break you'll be

 2     cross-examined by Defence counsel.  But before you leave the courtroom

 3     for the break, we first turn into closed session so that no one will see

 4     your face when leaving the courtroom.  We turn into closed session.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in open session.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just wanted to make

21     one small correction on the record.  P1993, what should be uploaded as

22     that exhibit is 65 ter 5248C, which is an excerpt from the photo book of

23     Mr. Ruez.  Pages 24 and 25 thereof.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that -- I have -- is that -- does that

25     mean that it's the wrong number?  Because on your list I find -- at least

Page 15419

 1     on one of your lists I find, yes, 05248C, you say?

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is hereby on the record.

 4             Ms. Bibles, Mr. Groome announced that you would address the

 5     Chamber in relation to the most recent filing that is the Defence

 6     Rule 94 bis notice and objection relative to proposed Prosecution Witness

 7     Robert Donia and a motion to amend the 65 ter list.  Please proceed.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  Your

 9     Honours, in its 94 bis filing for Dr. Donia, the Defence raises four

10     arguments.  The first three of these arguments alleging that the

11     Prosecution has failed to identify the field of expertise - Dr. Donia's

12     methodology and bias - don't require much of a response.  Dr. Donia has

13     testified here 14 times at ICTY.  These transcripts, his reports, his

14     CVs, are well known and have been disclosed.  Dr. Donia's most recent CV

15     was disclosed to the Defence on 23 July.  I will seek to add his

16     curriculum vitae to the 65 ter list.  It has been uploaded as

17     65 ter 30165.  The bottom line with respect to the first three arguments

18     is that these are matters appropriately for cross-examination.

19             However, the Defence argues that there have been breaches of

20     disclosure, which is notably incorrect.  All materials cited by Dr. Donia

21     in his footnotes, which are in the OTP system, have been disclosed to the

22     Defence.  It is worth noting that Dr. Donia's two reports and appendices

23     were disclosed in English on the 22nd of February, the B/C/S translations

24     were provided on the 12th of April of 2013.  In reviewing his Sarajevo

25     report, it is evident that Dr. Donia's research and sources include

Page 15420

 1     books, newspapers, open source materials, that are generally used by

 2     scholarly historians in their research and particularly for citing events

 3     that were known at the time.  I should note that the very poor timing of

 4     the filing of the Prosecution's 94 bis notice is my responsibility.  It

 5     was a mistake particularly given that the reports themselves were

 6     actually disclosed months prior.  I apologise for that.  We did modify

 7     this week's schedule to allow additional consideration time given that

 8     poor timing.

 9             The issue central to this discussion today is related only to a

10     small percentage of footnotes in Dr. Donia's Sarajevo report.  As this

11     Trial Chamber is aware, ICTY jurisprudence regarding an expert's sources

12     requires that those sources underlying an expert report are clearly

13     indicated and easily accessible, and if not, whether there is prejudice

14     to the accused.  In other litigation on these points have largely arisen

15     in the context of expert reports on which an expert has relied on

16     materials that are not available to the public or to the other party such

17     as a VJ insider or someone who has special access to materials are not

18     available to others.  Here, that's not the case.  These are documents in

19     the public purview.

20             On 25 July, the Defence requested additional documentation

21     regarding the footnotes in this report noting that Dr. Donia does not

22     provide 65 ter numbers in his footnotes.  As an outside expert, he does

23     not have the 65 ter numbers and they would not be included in his report.

24     I immediately advised the Defence that we would provide a chart of the

25     footnoted materials with the 65 ter numbers and ERN location numbers, but

Page 15421

 1     I advised that there were open source materials that were not in the OTP

 2     database.  These include less than 60 pages of material which it is

 3     important to consider are largely footnoted in background material.  17

 4     pages of these materials are from one page articles in either

 5     "Oslobodjenje" or "Slobodna Bosnia."  They are referenced by date and

 6     title of the article in these newspapers.  Twenty seven of these pages

 7     are from nine different books which are all referenced by author, title,

 8     publisher, and the year of publication.  At least five of which are in

 9     the ICTY library upon a quick check yesterday.

10             The others include five official documents and a transcript of a

11     Pale TV show.  Of those five official documents, one is the 1991 census,

12     which in a different format is on our exhibit list three times and is

13     accessible to the Defence.  The other four include a Bosnia gazette, the

14     1978 statute of Sarajevo, and archived materials from the city of

15     Sarajevo.  These are not in the OTP system and are not subject to

16     disclosure.  Having reviewed the Defence filing, however, I did ask

17     Dr. Donia whether he had any of these open source materials available to

18     him.  He provided them in a PDF format which we have or can give to the

19     Defence this morning.

20             Aside from being publicly available, these materials generally

21     relate to the background portions of Dr. Donia's report.  For example, on

22     page 18, in both the English and B/C/S versions of the Sarajevo report,

23     footnote 45 includes three of these sources.  It supports this statement

24     in the report which is describing the history of the development of

25     municipalities in Sarajevo.

Page 15422

 1             "The city council undertook the most far reaching these

 2     expansions in 1977 driven by the need to strengthen and standardise the

 3     existing communications networks and infrastructure in advance of the

 4     1984 winter Olympic Games."

 5             If this or any other aspect of the report, supported by the open

 6     source footnotes, are at issue in this case, then the appropriate remedy

 7     is to cross-examine Dr. Donia with respect to his report on those

 8     sources.  We do not oppose additional cross-examination time for this

 9     witness, for the Defence to challenge areas of the report supported by

10     these sources.

11             As to the memorandum cited at the end of the Defence response, we

12     would happily provide the memorandum and the revision to the -- for the

13     Trial Chamber's consideration.  The memorandum, which is 16 pages of

14     double spaced material, was initially provided along with Dr. Donia's

15     94 bis notice over 30 days ago.  Last Friday, in preparation for his

16     testimony, Dr. Donia provided an errata sheet containing or correcting

17     the translation of one cited quote in that memorandum along with some

18     small clerical errors.  For clarity, he also provided a clean version of

19     the original memorandum with the corrections provided in the text.

20             There are no substantive additions to the additional memorandum.

21     The clean memorandum was simply provided to assist the Defence in their

22     preparation.  We have checked with Dr. Donia, realising that there may be

23     a scheduling issue here, regarding any flexibility in his calendar.  We

24     have learned that he could be available through next Monday and perhaps

25     next Tuesday, if necessary, for any additional cross-examination based on

Page 15423

 1     these materials.  We would also offer that if the Defence was to apply

 2     later on for Dr. Donia to be recalled, that we would not oppose that

 3     application.

 4             We would propose that Dr. Donia is here and prepared to testify

 5     and that we proceed with his testimony and cross-examination.  Where the

 6     appropriate remedy for the objections noted in the Defence response is in

 7     a full cross-examination, we would make him available obviously for

 8     additional cross-examination if that was necessary following his initial

 9     testimony.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

11             Mr. Lukic, first of all, welcome back.  Do you wish to respond

12     right away or --

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think I can respond right away, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I do not know how much time you would need for

15     that and whether we would first take a break and ask you to --

16             MR. LUKIC:  We can take the break as well.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time do you think you would need?

18             MR. LUKIC:  We heard pretty long explanation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  But it comes to two points.  We were, the documents

21     were not disclosed to us.  And something is offered to be disclosed

22     today.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. LUKIC:  So I don't think that I will have much to add to this

25     because they admitted they didn't follow the rules.

Page 15424

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But that's very short.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but I will elaborate a bit after the break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we take the break now.

 4             Perhaps there will be some disclosure during the break.  You

 5     never know, because Ms. Bibles was --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We will not accept disclosure during the break.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, disclosure is disclosure.  Whether you would

 8     later argue that it was too late, that's a different matter, but

 9     disclosure is disclosure, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  We will see if we'll receive anything during

11     the break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bibles announced that.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But I think it's less than three days before the

14     testimony of the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's first take a break and we resume at five

16     minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will carefully listen to your

20     observations in relation to what was presented by Ms. Bibles.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             [Interpretation] I'm going to speak in B/C/S, perhaps I shall be

23     more accurate and precise.

24             First of all, let me say that I received a disclosure today

25     during the break from Ms. Bibles, and I don't know what it contains, how

Page 15425

 1     many documents it contains.  Our objection is that we did not receive the

 2     material in good time.  I would like to emphasise that before the break,

 3     I addressed the Prosecution explicitly with regard to Dr. Donia, asking

 4     that everything that I need to have be given to me before the break so

 5     that I can have an opportunity to prepare my cross-examination, the

 6     cross-examination of this expert witness.

 7             My legal consultant, Mr. Ivetic, was constantly in touch with

 8     Mrs. Bibles.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I get clear:  When you say before the break,

10     you don't mean this break this morning, you mean the recess.

11             MR. LUKIC:  The recess, yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] So before the summer

15     recess, I had asked that everything be disclosed to us.  Through web mail

16     and through Mr. Ivetic, our legal adviser, we maintained constant

17     communication with the OTP.  This morning, you heard a lengthy

18     explanation about what is contained and what is not contained, what was

19     sent, what was not sent, what was disclosed and not disclosed, what comes

20     from public sources, et cetera.

21             Now, what I'd like to tell you is that Mr. Donia is supposed to

22     start his testimony today.  However, at this point, I don't know what we

23     have available to us.  I believe that the obligation to disclose material

24     is 100 per cent.  There cannot be any contingency or reservation to the

25     effect that 30 per cent or 40 per cent can be disclosed.  All the

Page 15426

 1     materials relating to a certain expert witness must be disclosed.  During

 2     this brief break, Ms. Bibles told me to be careful not to push this issue

 3     too hard because the same obligation will apply to us as a Defence team.

 4     We are prepared to follow the rules and to disclose to the Prosecution

 5     everything that needs to be disclosed.  We were more in fear of what is

 6     awaiting us with the future expert witnesses coming to testify on behalf

 7     of the Prosecution.

 8             We know that until the end of the -- their case, they are going

 9     to rely on expert witnesses in order to present their submissions.

10     I don't want this to become a practice that the materials are not

11     disclosed and on the other hand that in such situation expert witnesses

12     are allowed to appear and testify.  Finally, this morning we heard

13     with -- that many of these documents come from open sources.  What is an

14     open source?  If it is on the internet, it's all right, we have access to

15     that, but if the US library in New York is an open source means that

16     I need to go to New York to buy a certain book.  That means a suspension

17     or adjournment of trial for the Defence to be allowed to travel to

18     New York to buy the book.  There is no rules that provides for

19     adjournment for those purposes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we exaggerate too much, the

21     library of the ICTY does not only contain a lot of material, but is

22     always assisting in getting every book from available sources in the

23     Netherlands, including the library of the Peace Palace, which is nearer

24     by than New York libraries and is a very large international law library.

25     I'm not saying that you will find everything there, but if you say it may

Page 15427

 1     cause you some problems, I do understand, but then to extend that you

 2     have to travel to New York seems to be a bit over the top.

 3             Please proceed.  But we'll further listen to your submissions.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The instructions that we have in this

 5     report, if you start from footnote number 1, you can see that you have a

 6     London and New York cited as the sources, footnote number 2, London,

 7     Cambridge university, Harvard, New York.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just ask, Mr. Lukic, is it not possible to

 9     order those books rather than to go to London or to go to New York?

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, do you believe that we

11     need to buy 200 books for every expert witness?  That is not possible.

12     It was possible just to make a copy of certain page.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just following your argument, you put the argument

14     that it means that the case must adjourn, you must fly to New York to go

15     and buy a book.  Now, the decision to buy the book is your decision.  I'm

16     just saying instead of flying to New York, you can order it.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we can order it.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  So I'm not arguing with --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe I exaggerated a bit.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's the points I'm making.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I accept.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] But we cannot be

24     requested to go around and collect the materials relating to the expert

25     witness report reviewed by the expert witness and that he is referring

Page 15428

 1     to.  If he is referring to a certain document, we must be given this

 2     document.  Today we heard from the Prosecution that all the material from

 3     the footnote that are in the OTP system have been made available.  You

 4     heard the Prosecution saying that.  But we need all the materials.  If an

 5     expert witness is going to make reference to something, we must be given

 6     that reference.

 7             Secondly, I can tell you that if we go to Sarajevo now and try to

 8     find some newspaper from the archive, we would not be able be to acquire

 9     that.  This Defence team has been asking Sarajevo to provide the most

10     trivial information such as statistical data, and we have to wait between

11     six months and one year just for a reply whether they were going to agree

12     to provide us that.  Every day we are in negotiations with Sarajevo.

13             It is also said that the focal point of this discussion according

14     to my colleague, Ms. Bibles, is only a small number of documents that

15     have not been disclosed.  That is not correct.  It's not just a small

16     portion.  If you look at the number of pages, that's a vast part of what

17     is being cited here.  Easily accessible to the Defence?  It's not true.

18     It is almost not accessible at all.  Or it might take six months to order

19     the books, as suggested by His Honour Judge Moloto, and then wait for

20     them to arrive and be delivered.  If they say that if this is not

21     accessible, it is questionable whether it is to the prejudice of the

22     accused.  Everything to the prejudice of the accused if his Defence

23     attorneys are not capable of preparing his Defence case.

24             We also heard a very long explanation of why 65 ter is missing 60

25     pages of material, crucial material is missing, 80 pages, 27 books, five

Page 15429

 1     of which can be found in the library.  I didn't understand that part of

 2     the explanation at all, I must admit.  What is there, what isn't there,

 3     what we have been given and what we haven't been given.

 4             They admitted that some archive materials are not in the OTP

 5     system, so they clearly admitted we haven't disclosed this to you.

 6             We heard today that they are prepared, for some of the materials

 7     used by Mr. Donia, to supply us with.  They did so but we don't know what

 8     it contains.

 9             Do the Prosecution agree that we apply the same practice in

10     disclosing our materials to them and we are going to request them to give

11     us this answer?  Are they expecting us to disclose the materials relating

12     to our expert witnesses in the same fashion?  Have the Rules been set in

13     that way, it would have been done so, but this is not what the Rules say.

14     The Rules say that the materials must be disclosed 30 days before an

15     expert witness begins his testimony.  Have they fulfilled this

16     obligation?  No, they haven't.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, to assist the Chamber, could you provide

18     us with the authorities saying that every single footnote reference that

19     the underlying material to that reference should be disclosed under all

20     circumstances?  Because that apparently is the position you're taking,

21     and when you say what is the Prosecution expecting, as far as our experts

22     will be, if it ever comes to that stage, then I take it, and I'm looking

23     to you, Ms. Bibles and to you Mr. Groome, that you would apply the same

24     standards that accessible material, material in the public domain,

25     et cetera, that there is no need to disclose that, if it's footnote

Page 15430

 1     material in expert report.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  We're simply saying that we

 3     understand the jurisprudence at the ICTY and we follow that, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, that seems to be a vital issue in

 5     your debate, on whether every single underlying document should be

 6     disclosed and then of course the question in full or not in full.  That

 7     seems to be the key issue.  Could you also expand on that?  I was

 8     interrupting you but could you not forget that part of the debate.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What I'm trying to say is that so far

10     I haven't taken part in the trial because I haven't received all the

11     material made in footnotes.  I'm talking about the cases that

12     I participated before in this Tribunal.  On the other hand, we provided

13     everything that our expert witness made reference to.  We have, for

14     example, the Milosevic case, when the issue of accepting Dr. Donia's

15     paragraph - this is on 15 February 2007, paragraph 7 - where it was

16     stated that there was a reference missing of the available source, and

17     that the Chamber would treat this issue as a personal opinion of the

18     witness rather than his expert opinion.

19             So if the OTP is bringing Mr. Donia as a fact witness here, we

20     will see which facts he's familiar with.  However, if he's brought here

21     as an expert witness, we demand that the material that he used in

22     preparing his expert report we ask that to be disclosed to us.

23     Otherwise, we demand that the footnotes be removed because frankly

24     speaking at this point in time we are not able to check whether

25     everything that is stated in the footnotes is really accurate and true.

Page 15431

 1             That's as far as the disclosure is concerned.  The OTP did not

 2     want even to tackle the issue whether Mr. Donia is really an expert or

 3     not, and whether he had worked as an expert.  It was only said that he

 4     testified 14 times.  Our position is that despite so many appearances, he

 5     did not work as an expert in this particular case.

 6             As for his methodology, this is not a scientific methodology.  He

 7     himself said that his terms of reference was to support the indictment,

 8     and it is even contained in one of the titles of his reports.  In his

 9     report, he provided expert opinion about military, psychiatric,

10     psychological, ethnographic, and all manner of issues, demographic,

11     constitutional, legal matters.  We believe that he was -- that he was not

12     proposed to testify about that, nor does he have any requisite

13     qualifications to testify about these issues.

14             What is his report about?  His report is about the assemblies of

15     Republika Srpska.  He dealt with this issue by taking out of the context

16     and according to his own admission he took out of context certain

17     statements and included them into his report in order to corroborate the

18     indictment.  We believe that this is not how an independent expert should

19     operate that this Court should take into consideration when deliberating

20     their judgement.

21             He is not here to help the procedure but, rather, to provide

22     support to the indictment.  We know that for a long time he worked for

23     the Prosecution in the Kosovo trials, Mr. Milutinovic et al, and that

24     Mr. Coo had been removed and dismissed as an expert witness precisely for

25     that reason.  The memorandum that was mentioned at the beginning of

Page 15432

 1     Mrs. Bibles' submission is something that we received on Friday, with all

 2     the corrections, and the Chamber says that they are not aware of that.

 3     Now we hear that they are prepared to provide this as evidence.  Has this

 4     been properly disclosed to us, if it was given to us on Friday?  No, it

 5     hasn't.

 6             There are other numerous objections that we perhaps don't have

 7     enough time today to discuss in relation to Mr. Donia, but we believe if

 8     we really want to discuss the issue whether he's an expert or not, the

 9     materials must be disclosed in time.  And even if that had been done, we

10     believe that on the basis of these two reports and an annex, Mr. Donia

11     cannot qualify as an expert and we believe that this Chamber must not

12     accept him as an expert witness.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  The Chamber will consider the

14     matter.

15             Ms. Bibles, you were on your feet.

16             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, if I could just correct a few points

17     made by Mr. Lukic?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then very short and then Mr. Lukic has an

19     opportunity to respond to that.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             First, the discussion regarding the trips to London.  Mr. Lukic

22     referred to footnote 2, which cites seven materials.  All of those are in

23     the OTP database, had been disclosed, and now were provided -- that

24     reference material was provided to the Defence.

25             Number 2, I'd like to correct the record.

Page 15433

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, that saves you at least a trip to London.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe I missed one topic.  Footnotes were not

 3     associated in any way with disclosures, so we don't know which disclosure

 4     is for which footnote.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That is --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  That was promised, never done too.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also include that, Ms. Bibles, whether

 8     that was promised and whether you did it or not.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, on the 25th of July, there was a

10     request to our team to provide additional material regarding the

11     footnotes.  I responded immediately and indicated that we would provide a

12     chart of the documents cited along with 65 ter numbers or reference

13     numbers.  And that -- in e-mail I advised that there were documents not

14     in the OTP system that were open source material, so this is not a new

15     concept.  This has been discussed in the conversations back and forth.

16     We then did provide a chart that listed the footnote number with the

17     document and the ERN number or 65 ter number.  We provided --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you do that, Ms. Bibles?

19             MS. BIBLES:  That was on the 7th of August.  We went back through

20     and found a few additional 65 ter documents that were on that list, and

21     when I provided on two weeks ago today the list of exhibits that

22     I intended to either use or tender with Dr. Donia, we also provided that

23     chart again and we bolded those items that we had found additional

24     information on.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Any dispute about this, about this historical sketch

Page 15434

 1     given by Ms. Bibles, Mr. Lukic?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I really don't know what my learned friend is talking

 3     about.  I have a list in front of me.  I don't have any mention of

 4     footnotes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So the chart, Ms. Bibles, could you be a bit more

 6     precise so as to assist Mr. Lukic in where he could find it?  When it was

 7     sent?

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honours.  I am opening that document right

 9     now.  We sent it attached to an e-mail on the 7th of August.  It was a

10     PDF format.  Apparently, PDF files are not working on this computer at

11     the moment, but that was the file that was sent on the 7th of August,

12     attached to an e-mail, and the concern was to make sure that we could

13     send a chart that could be sent via e-mail.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, 7th of August.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'm telling you I'm holding the list.  I don't know

16     if is it from 7 August because it doesn't -- here is the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But the chart --

18             MR. LUKIC:  It's on 19th of August, so it's printed after that

19     probably.  But on that chart, I don't see footnotes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but 65 ter numbers, if I understand Ms. Bibles

21     well.

22             Are they related to footnotes, Ms. Bibles?

23             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  The first -- the chart that was

24     sent on the 7th of August and then a revised chart on the 14th of August

25     were both PDF charts that started off with the footnote number, a

Page 15435

 1     description of the item, and then either an ERN number or a 65 ter number

 2     where they existed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's, Mr. Lukic, apparently there is some

 4     confusion about what to look at exactly.

 5             Ms. Bibles if you would proceed with the short brief comments on

 6     Mr. Lukic's submissions.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  The final point would be

 8     the memorandum Mr. Lukic referred to was provided on I believe it was the

 9     22nd or the 23rd of July.  That was noticed or provided -- there is

10     information about it in the 94 bis notice as a footnote, that there is a

11     small area that we might discuss with Dr. Donia, testifying that was

12     beyond the 65 ter summary, and we asked Dr. Donia to provide a memorandum

13     about that area.  And that was provided to the Defence in July.  That is

14     the errata that he corrected and then we provided that errata as well as

15     the clarified memorandum with the errata in it last Friday.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic I promised you an opportunity to briefly

17     respond.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Clarified is corrected.  It's changed.  This

19     memorandum was changed.  It's not what the term was used, clarified.

20     I could not find, and I checked with my case manager, he cannot locate

21     this document with the footnotes in the chart so if that document can be

22     printed so we see it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think two things need to be printed.  First, the

24     e-mail to which it was attached.  And second, then, I don't know how long

25     that list is, Ms. Bibles.

Page 15436

 1             MS. BIBLES:  It's 17 pages, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  17 pages.  Is there any way to print it out and give

 3     it to Mr. Lukic?

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We would then meanwhile continue with the

 6     examination of the present witness.  The Chamber will further consider

 7     the matter and we will proceed now, first in closed session in order to

 8     allow the witness to enter the courtroom.

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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Page 15437

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11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

21             Witness RM249, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

22     You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Hello, sir.

Page 15438

 1        A.   Hello.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like us to

 3     go into closed session for the first couple of questions because it could

 4     potentially reveal the witness's identity.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Would private session do?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That would be sufficient.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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Page 15439











11  Pages 15439-15441 redacted.  Private session.















Page 15442

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 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 15443

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Are you familiar with Goran Zekic?

 3        A.   Yes, I've heard of the name, Goran Zekic, yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know that he, as the representative of the Serbs and a

 5     member of the parliament of -- the parliament before the war, that he was

 6     killed around that time?

 7        A.   Yes.  As I've said, I heard of his name, and there were rumours

 8     in town to the effect that one of those who had been killed was possibly

 9     the gentleman whose name you just mentioned.

10        Q.   Up until 1995, were there any Serbs, pre-war Serbs, remaining in

11     Srebrenica?  Did they remain up until 1995?

12        A.   Yes.  And I can give you some names.  There was this lady in a

13     mixed marriage, I'm trying to her remember name, and again I'm afraid of

14     making a mistake.  Yes, there definitely were several families remaining.

15        Q.   Will you tell the Court, please, whether you are aware of the

16     humanitarian operation with the code name "Padobran" or parachute?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you restart your answer?

19        A.   Yes.  What I saw and heard from others indicates that this

20     operation was carried out in order to help the population of Srebrenica

21     get some food.  This operation was well-planned, well-designed, and it

22     seemed it would be successful, and there were some parts of it that were

23     successful, namely the food was delivered successfully several times.  I

24     know that some people managed to get this food.  This food was

25     air-dropped and some of those packages were dropped right at the

Page 15444

 1     demarcation line, so it wasn't easy getting to it.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Delivering the food to the population of the Srebrenica enclave

 4     in this manner, did it improve the situation in Srebrenica?

 5        A.   No, it could not have improved the situation because this type of

 6     aid was available only to those who were physically and able and healthy.

 7     I couldn't get that food because as a wounded man I couldn't go and fight

 8     with other residents to get some food.  I know that the elderly, the

 9     women and children, could not get their hands on any of that food, nobody

10     would bring the food to you and tell you, "Well, here, this belongs to

11     you."

12        Q.   Are you familiar with any attacks launched from the Srebrenica

13     enclave on the nearby Serbian villages, specifically Kravica?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you continue there, we have heard, if not ten

15     times, then at least seven to eight times, about these attacks.  Is there

16     any dispute that there were attacks launched around Srebrenica from

17     within Srebrenica?

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There is no dispute.

19     It was actually part of the opening statement, although I think -- I

20     don't know where Mr. Stojanovic is going with this, but it may be

21     relevant to examination of the witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Neither do I.  So I do not know whether

23     Mr. Stojanovic wants to ask the witness whether he has knowledge of it

24     which seems to be pretty irrelevant, unless there are specific reasons to

25     ask these questions.

Page 15445

 1             And Mr. Stojanovic, is it just to establish something that is not

 2     in dispute?  That's a waste of time.  Could you please think about where

 3     you're heading for and then continue without any risk of wasting time.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This was just an

 5     introduction to my following question, which stems from the

 6     examination-in-chief.

 7        Q.   During the examination-in-chief, you mentioned the reasons for

 8     the hatred due to which you were afraid of remaining in the territory of

 9     Srebrenica.  These reasons for the mutual hatred that existed there, is

10     it in any way linked to these events that I just asked you about?

11        A.   No, it's not linked in any way.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Pause between question and answer and between answer

13     and question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, my mistake.  I am not

15     linking this in any way whatsoever.  If you wish, I can talk at length

16     about the ways and manner of resistance put up by people of Srebrenica.

17     I was simply familiar with the situation because I witnessed it on a

18     daily basis, but I'm not connecting this with hatred.  There was hatred

19     in Srebrenica already at the beginning of the war.  If hadn't been any

20     hatred displayed, why was Srebrenica put under a blockade?  Why didn't

21     they leave a corridor, and why didn't everyone sit down and agree and

22     say, "Gentlemen, we need to reach an agreement, we need to evacuate the

23     population," so all this intense hatred among the Serb population and the

24     army started from the very beginning and it only deepened with time in

25     the way that you mentioned, and that is when people had to go to the

Page 15446

 1     Serbian villages looking for food.  Imagine us being kept in this

 2     courtroom for five or six months without any food.  What can we do?  We

 3     have to break through a door and try to find food somewhere.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you've answered the question.  Next

 5     question.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Mladic is trying to get your

 7     attention.

 8                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, I can hear you speaking, so therefore

10     the volume is too high.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber is really concerned about hearing

12     repetitious evidence which we have heard a lot of times, whereas this

13     witness primarily, I think, was called to testify about the executions

14     which he escaped, and all the rest until now is for the seventh up to the

15     tenth time that we hear such evidence.  We don't need it a hundred times,

16     especially when it's not in dispute.  So please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Sir, can you tell me this?  On the 11th of July,

19     1992 [as interpreted], did you and your family receive any instruction

20     from anyone on where to go?

21        A.   No.  No.  I didn't receive any instructions relating to me

22     personally.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are recorded as having said 1992.  Is that the

24     year you are referring to?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.  I said

Page 15447

 1     11th July 1995.  It may have been the slip of the tongue but I think

 2     I said 1995.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's how the witness understood it as well,

 4     Witness RM249?  I see you're nodding yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I understood that the

 6     gentleman was asking me about 1995, and I gave the answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'm looking at the clock.  It's time for

 8     a break.  A break now of 20 minutes, Witness, and not much longer.  We

 9     first move into closed session before we take that break, and we will

10     resume in closed session after the break in order to allow the witness to

11     enter the courtroom.

12                           [Closed session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15448

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic, you don't have to make a pause before you start,

10     but immediately after the first answer, you have to.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   We can continue, Witness?  Before you decided to head off towards

13     Potocari, a large group of men passed by you in the opposite direction.

14     Did you know where they were heading to?

15        A.   Yes.  In my statement I said that these people were moving

16     towards Potocari.  My house is located in the place whose name

17     I mentioned in my statement.  So from that position, it was possible to

18     observe the column of people passing by.  It is possible that I mentioned

19     a group leaving towards Potocari.  It was clear to me that the people of

20     Srebrenica were leaving Srebrenica seeking salvation in the area of

21     Potocari with the Dutch Battalion.  Being wounded, I also understood that

22     the only way for me to seek shelter would be to go to the DutchBat.

23     Therefore, I didn't have any dilemma as to which direction to take.  That

24     is to say, I decided to go to Potocari.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please focus your answers very

Page 15449

 1     much on what is asked?  The only question was whether you knew where they

 2     were heading to, not whether you had any hesitation where to go for

 3     yourself or whatever.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, next question, please.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see, before you started towards

 7     Potocari, any armed men moving towards Jaglici and Susnjari?

 8        A.   Not in that area.  I wasn't able to see that.  If you are

 9     familiar with this region, this area is far away from the place that you

10     have just mentioned.  Perhaps one kilometre or maybe even more.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You said no, I had no opportunity to see it in that

12     area.  That fully answers the question.  If Mr. Stojanovic wants to know

13     the reasons why, he'll ask you for it.

14             Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Upon your arrival in Potocari, you were given information that

17     General Mladic had come there.  What was exactly said to you about what

18     General Mladic told the refugees?

19        A.   The people in Potocari who told me that General Mladic had

20     arrived passed this information from mouth to mouth, and that is how

21     I learned about his arrival.  I wasn't able to understand any orders that

22     he had given.  I only learned from people close to me that the general

23     had arrived in Potocari.

24        Q.   Did you receive any information that General Mladic addressed the

25     refugees and guaranteed safety to all of them?

Page 15450

 1        A.   I couldn't comprehend that in the sense that you are stating it.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have

 3     P1990 under seal.  We need page 2 in both versions.  The penultimate

 4     paragraph.  And then I'll move on to the last paragraph.  So once again

 5     I please would like to remind that this not be broadcast.

 6        Q.   Sir, let us look together at this, and please focus on the third

 7     paragraph from the bottom in both the English and the B/C/S versions,

 8     where, in the statement that you gave at the time, and by which you stood

 9     fully, as you said today, you said that you heard from some women that

10     General Mladic was in Potocari and that he delivered a speech

11     guaranteeing security to all the refugees.  Do you stand by this

12     assertion in your statement?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  Your question was addressed to me, whether I felt any

14     security and safety guaranteed by Mr. Mladic, and I told you --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that is at least not how we understood the

16     question.  I think the question, as Mr. Stojanovic put it to you now, was

17     the one he wanted to put and that question has been answered.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   So we can confirm that you fully stand by this portion of your

21     statement, "yes" or "no"?

22        A.   I fully stand by this statement.  However, your question --

23        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  I'm going to proceed.  Please look at the

24     last paragraph in your statement, where there is mention of a name.  I'm

25     going to read it.  Where you say I saw Ibran Mustafovic.  Now, my

Page 15451

 1     question is:  Is this a proper spelling of the last name of this man?

 2        A.   Yes.  I also noticed a mistake here.  It should read "Mustafic"

 3     instead of "Mustafovic."

 4        Q.   In the statement that you have before you, you say admitting that

 5     this was a 1996 statement, that this man was taken away during that day

 6     and you have never seen him again.  Do you know today whether this person

 7     is still alive or not?

 8        A.   Yes.  Not only that I have this information, but it is common

 9     knowledge that this gentleman, who tried in many ways to ingratiate

10     himself and become politically active, I think that he was condemned by

11     the entire public of Srebrenica for everything that he did, and that he

12     still may be doing to this day by the way he is treating the people of

13     Srebrenica.

14        Q.   I'm going to ask you about that.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The question, sorry, if I may just interrupt,

16     Mr. Stojanovic, I don't think the witness answered the question you

17     asked.  Do you know whether this man is still alive or not?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  He is alive.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you know that during his stay in Srebrenica, before July 1995,

22     he was the subject of an attempted assassination and that he was wounded

23     in the process?

24        A.   Believe me, I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   Can you please tell the Court what was Mr. Mustafic doing on the

Page 15452

 1     day when you saw him on that particular date when you were in Potocari?

 2        A.   I have to give you a rather lengthy answer.  Mr. Mustafic had

 3     been politically active before the war.  He was known to a lot of people

 4     and that's why I recognised had him as well.  He was accompanied by a

 5     gentleman I think called Hamed who was also a political activist.

 6     I found it strange that these two men were together in the same area

 7     because they were politically active before the war.  After that, I saw

 8     some Serb soldiers in the company of Mustafic and they all left together.

 9     I said that Mustafic is still alive, and how he managed to survive, I

10     don't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This is the little pause.  Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   At the moment when you saw him, was the procedure of boarding the

14     buses by the refugees already in progress?

15        A.   I believe that was on the first day following our arrival.  I

16     don't know if they tried to carry out the evacuation on that first day.

17     I know it started on the second day.  So towards the evening of the first

18     day, that is to say in the afternoon on the 11th of July, proper

19     evacuation would actually start on the 12th of July.  Now, I can tell you

20     that I'm not sure whether there was any evacuation carried out on the

21     evening of the 11th.

22        Q.   You have your statement in front of you and you said that you saw

23     this gentleman on the 12th of July 1995.

24        A.   Yes.  That was the second time.  I first saw him, as I described

25     a minute ago, as soon as I arrived in Potocari, I spotted him, and the

Page 15453

 1     last time he was seen on the 12th together with the Serbian soldiers who

 2     took him away.  Yes, the evacuation was on the 12th.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have now 1D1046 in

 4     e-court.

 5        Q.   Sir, while we're waiting for the document to be uploaded, let me

 6     ask you this:  Do you know that the gentleman we are discussing now

 7     published a book about the events he experienced, and have you read that

 8     book?

 9        A.   What I read is the daily press.  I read it on internet.  And in

10     the daily press, I read that this gentleman published a book.  I know

11     nothing more about the book, not a single page of its content.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple question -- the simple answer to

13     the question whether you read the book is no, you didn't read it.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we need to correct

19     the number.  1D00084.  This is the 65 ter number.  1D00084.  Could we see

20     page 387 of the book, of this exhibit?  And I would like to see the last

21     paragraph underlined.

22        Q.   He says in the book, which is called "Planned Chaos," in

23     describing the same days in July 1995, he says:

24             "During that time, on the little bridge across the Rabin creek

25     and manned by Chetniks, several soldiers of the Dutch Battalion,

Page 15454

 1     Nesib Mandic, Ibro Nuhanovic, and Camila were together letting through

 2     and separating the people.

 3             Do you know, sir, who Nesib Mandic is, Ibro and Nuhanovic and who

 4     Camila is?

 5        A.   Personally I didn't know Nesib Mandic.  I didn't know personally

 6     Ibro Nuhanovic, nor Madam Camila.  However, by reading the papers, I know

 7     that they were the people who tried to conduct some sort of negotiations

 8     during the time when the people were in Potocari.  This is what I know

 9     from the papers, from the press.

10        Q.   He goes on to say:

11             "I knew they had been in Bratunac negotiating but I could not

12     believe my eyes that, that several Dutch soldiers were working together

13     with the Chetniks and separating people."

14             My question is:  Did you have an opportunity to see what

15     Ibran Mustafic describes in his book?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   The next topic I want to ask you is this:  When you went off to

18     board buses, is it true that members of international forces put up two

19     APCs in a funnel shape, together with red ribbons thus directing the

20     people?

21        A.   Yes, that's true.  But it wasn't in the funnel shape.  It was on

22     each side of the road and between those two APCs, there was a passage for

23     those who wished to go towards the buses.

24        Q.   In the narrowest point of that passage between the two APCs,

25     there were members of international forces who let through towards the

Page 15455

 1     buses some of the people proportionate to the number who could board the

 2     buses.  Is that true?

 3        A.   Yes.  Let me explain.  The first point of contact were the

 4     soldiers of the Dutch Battalion.  Once they let people through, then the

 5     people would get to the Serb soldiers who checked them again, and the

 6     Serb soldiers, when conducting their checks, would separate the people,

 7     men from women and children.  Women and children were given an option to

 8     go towards the buses.

 9        Q.   How far was the place where the Serb soldiers separated the men

10     from the rest of the group?  How far was that place from the place where

11     the members of international forces were standing?

12        A.   That was immediately behind the two APCs used by the Dutch

13     soldiers.  I can't tell you the exact distance in metres, but ten or so,

14     ten metres from the place where the Dutch soldiers stood to the place

15     where the Serbian soldiers stood, perhaps even less.

16        Q.   On that morning, when you set out to board the buses which,

17     according to your statement, was on the 13th of July at about 8.00 in the

18     morning, were there any buses there at that moment?

19        A.   I need to answer in a couple of sentences, if you allow me.

20        Q.   Please go ahead.

21        A.   As I passed through, a group of Serbian soldiers distanced

22     themselves in a very short time, perhaps less than a minute, and for me

23     that was enough time to allow me to enter the last bus which was some ten

24     metres to the front, perhaps even less than ten metres.  So that's all

25     I needed to get on the bus.  Once I got on the bus, I heard the voice of

Page 15456

 1     the Serb soldiers asking, "Did any of the men enter buses?"  And

 2     everybody kept quiet.  I was afraid that one of the women would tell me,

 3     "Why don't you go and report yourself?"  But none of them did.  Following

 4     that, another group of women and children boarded and they completely

 5     concealed me.  I sat on the floor of the bus and women and children who

 6     boarded right behind me hid me, so I was completely concealed on the bus.

 7        Q.   I would like for us to look at the transcript of the testimony of

 8     a witness in this trial, a member of the DutchBat, describing precisely

 9     the same event at the same time, morning hours of 13th of July.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So could we see, Your Honours,

11     in e-court, the testimony dated 25th of April 2013, page of transcript,

12     10381, lines 10 to 20, please.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  In this case, I take it?  This case, yes.  Now, do

15     you want to put to the witness is there any inconsistency or is it

16     consistent?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's

18     inconsistent and that's precisely why I want to put this portion to the

19     witness.  It was in this trial, as I have stated.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, now, have you -- if you want to show

21     this to the witness, have you uploaded that portion of the testimony in

22     e-court?  Because otherwise, it might be difficult for --

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe I did.  I asked for

24     specific lines and I would read them out in B/C/S so that we can follow.

25     So it's page 10381, lines 10 to 20.

Page 15457

 1        Q.   Sir, by way of introduction, let me tell you again that this is

 2     the testimony of a member of the DutchBat speaking about the 13th of July

 3     morning hours.  The question of the Prosecutor was:

 4             "Q. Sir, on the second morning of the evacuation, that time

 5     period when the Serbs had not yet arrived, in the absence of the Serbs,

 6     would you say that the Bosnian Muslim refugees also exhibited eagerness

 7     and desire to leave Srebrenica and were not forced on to the buses at

 8     that time?"

 9             When asked this by the Prosecution, the witness answered:

10             "A. Yes, they were eager to leave, and I also think because at

11     that time the Serb forces were not there, only the UN forces, in my mind

12     I think also that the refugees saw the opportunity to keep their families

13     together and board the buses and the trucks in a normal way, without

14     pushing or kicking or brutalising in any way."

15             Let me ask you, sir, based on your recollection, on the 13th of

16     July at 8.00 a.m., in -- at that check-point, at that ramp, at that

17     barricade, were there Serb forces present?

18        A.   Yes, Serb forces were present.  As I understood it, this

19     gentleman said, "I think."  He said, "In my mind," which is to say that

20     he wasn't completely certain.  Perhaps there were not as many as the Serb

21     soldiers there as there would be later.  When I passed there was a group

22     of three to four Serb soldiers who were there and who moved away for a

23     short period of time.  Women who passed afterwards said that the group of

24     Serb soldiers later was larger.  It is likely that the Serb -- that the

25     Dutch soldier saw -- thought that the three to four Serb soldiers was a

Page 15458

 1     negligible group, and I disagree with his statement that the Serb

 2     soldiers were not present.  They were present.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I will ask you to tell us again, irrespective of what

 4     you said in your statement, this:  The place where you saw that the men

 5     who had been separated were being kept, would you tell us how far that

 6     place was from the place where the members of international forces stood?

 7        A.   Well, I can't be fully precise when it comes to the distance in

 8     metres but it wasn't that far.  It was on the left side of the houses,

 9     and I could see well while I stood there waiting that there were a lot of

10     people in front of me who wanted to leave.  I wasn't able to leave that

11     quickly so while I stood there I observed.  I saw a vehicle TAM 80 which

12     I knew from my army days.  I saw it come in front of the house, and

13     people, men, were separated and taken to that house.  They were separated

14     by the Serbian soldiers, which again confirms that the Serbian soldiers

15     were already there, albeit in small numbers.

16        Q.   My question was:  Can you estimate the distance of that house,

17     how far that house was?

18        A.   Not that far.  Perhaps 20 metres.  Perhaps 10 to 15 metres.  Of

19     course, one cannot be fully precise when relying on one's memory.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You said that the house was on the left side?

21        A.   Yes, on the left side.

22        Q.   For the sake of the record, would you tell us looking from where

23     was that house on the left house [as interpreted]?

24        A.   Looking from the direction in which the people were moving, from

25     Potocari towards Srebrenica on the left side.  So we were moving towards

Page 15459

 1     Bratunac, and it was on the left side, on the road Potocari-Bratunac.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now could we see in e-court

 4     P1132, which is a book by Jean-Rene Ruez, and the collection of documents

 5     we used.  Could we see page 24, please?  Could we please enlarge the

 6     upper left side of this aerial photograph?

 7        Q.   Witness, can you tell me, please, looking at this photograph --

 8        A.   It is too technical for me.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom on the middle part

10     from the -- so that we can see the road?  Could we move that to the

11     right?  Or, rather, to the left?  I think that would be enough.  Thank

12     you.

13        Q.   Can you now tell us where the facility was where you were and was

14     that the Vihor bus station or garage, rather?

15        A.   It wasn't Vihor, it was Srebrenica Ekspres.  That was the name of

16     the company who had its maintenance workshop for their vehicles, and this

17     is where I was.  I was in that facility.  And then the next evening

18     I spent in destroyed buses.  I can't see those buses here.  Perhaps you

19     could use my sketch.  I can't really orient myself on this map.  We see

20     buses here --

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave,

22     could I ask for the photograph number 25 from the same collection of

23     photographs to be shown to the witness?  Perhaps it would be better for

24     the witness.  We sort of anticipated that the witness might have problems

25     orienting himself, so could we now see photograph 25, please?

Page 15460

 1             If I may also ask this middle portion to be enlarged where we can

 2     see this building with the blue roof, the road, and the building on the

 3     right-hand side.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, maybe this is a better photograph.  Can you see here any

 5     buses and does this photograph remind you of the place where you were?

 6        A.   It is incredible how I find it so difficult to find my bearings

 7     here.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if the witness is unable to find his

 9     bearings here, you should proceed, I add to this that it's totally

10     unclear to --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I suggest --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  It's totally unclear to me what the

13     issue is you are covering at this moment.  It's really unclear to me.

14     Perhaps you put questions such that the witness can answer and that

15     clarifies what issue you are raising here.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I understand.  I will suspend this further exercise because

18     you're obviously finding it difficult.  My next question is:  How did you

19     understand the position and the role in the whole process of the

20     evacuation of people from Potocari of members of the international

21     forces?  In your mind, what was their role?

22        A.   It was completely unclear to me once I found myself in Potocari.

23     I wasn't able to receive any protection as a person who was wounded, and

24     it made me realise that the premonition of the people would come true,

25     which is that all men would be executed.  I noticed other men in the area

Page 15461

 1     who had surrendered, but these healthy men were the ones who were the

 2     most afraid.  I may have some chance, being wounded, and I had the

 3     documents to prove that I was wounded at the beginning of the war on the

 4     14th of May.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think you've answered the question by saying

 6     that it was completely unclear to you once you found yourself in

 7     Potocari.

 8             Next question, please, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did you, at any point, witness members of the international

11     forces participating in the evacuation of the population?

12        A.   As I already said, I saw Dutch soldiers in front, making sure

13     that people were passing through in smaller groups, and that after that

14     they were checked by the Serb soldiers.  That was their participation.

15     There was no other form of participation.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please now

17     all take a look at a portion of a video, P1147?  Document 28780 65 ter,

18     V9 --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Stojanovic please speak slowly the

20     numbers?  Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to slowly mention the

22     numbers.  Perhaps you repeat it.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honours.

24     P1147, Srebrenica trial video, V0009267, excerpt started from 6.00 to

25     6.24.

Page 15462

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There is only audio at this moment.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the clip.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Sir, this is a video clip from Potocari, following your

 8     departure, when the evacuation was nearing its completion at around half

 9     past 3.00, if we are to believe this time on the screen.  This member of

10     the Serbian army is asking his words to be translated because he was

11     requesting members of the international forces to go over there and check

12     whether there was anyone else who wanted to leave, and then he added

13     that's their job.  Is that how you understood the position of members of

14     the Dutch Battalion or let's say members of the international forces?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think the witness

17     has answered the question already.  And I don't know that the playing of

18     the video is in any way germane to addressing that issue further.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apart from that, it seems to be asking for

20     opinion rather than anything else about a moment where the witness wasn't

21     present.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, if you have any question of fact in relation to

23     this video, please put it to the witness.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do so, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Before you left, were you in a position at any point to

Page 15463

 1     communicate with members of the international forces in any shape or

 2     form?

 3        A.   Only when I was exiting and when I said that there were two white

 4     APCs parked.

 5        Q.   Were you able, then, to see that those were the ones who decided

 6     the number of people to pass through in order to board the buses?

 7        A.   The Serbian forces controlled everything.  That was the

 8     impression created among the people.  The Serb forces even controlled

 9     them.  That's what people thought and had this impression.  But since I'm

10     not an expert for this area, I would like you to ask me about what the

11     Judge said, that you should put me the questions that I can give you

12     answers to.

13        Q.   Thank you for not being able to answer.  We are not pressing you

14     to do so.  If you cannot answer, I shall move on.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have again in e-court

16     document P1990.  That's under seal and should not be broadcast.  Let's

17     look at page 4, the last paragraph in the B/C/S, and the fourth paragraph

18     in the English.

19        Q.   During examination-in-chief, you mentioned two names that you

20     said that you later found out that they were brothers.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You speak about that in the paragraph that I have just put to

23     you.  So my question is:  Where were they -- according to the information

24     that you had, where were they taken prisoner?

25        A.   From what I learned during my capture, I learned that they had

Page 15464

 1     been captured in a different area, not in the area where the women and

 2     children were.

 3        Q.   What I'd like to ask you was whether they were captured as

 4     members of the column passing through the forest from Srebrenica towards

 5     the territory controlled by the 2nd Corps of the BH Army?

 6        A.   I don't know whether they were in the column.  I know that both

 7     of them were wounded and I know that they had been brought from another

 8     location, not the location where the women and children were.  That is to

 9     say not from the last check-point where I exited.

10        Q.   Did you ever find out what their last name was?

11        A.   Many people, many relatives of theirs, showed interest in order

12     to find out what I knew, but all I can tell them was that I saw them,

13     that they were wounded, and that they had contact with the gentleman who

14     they addressed as a neighbour, who answered them in an angry way, and

15     that is all the information that I could provide to their families.  Now,

16     you ask me about their last name.  I did hear it, but I cannot remember

17     it now.

18        Q.   I'm just asking you this in order to verify the documents used by

19     the Prosecution.  Now, can you tell us whether you remembered correctly

20     the name of the Serb soldier that they contacted, with --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Stojanovic please repeat the name?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Mr. Stojanovic, you said now can you

23     tell us whether you remembered correctly the name of the Serb soldier

24     that they contacted, with -- and then the interpreters could not hear

25     you.  Could you please repeat the name you mentioned?

Page 15465

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  In the

 2     witness's statement his name is Momcilo Ristanovic, aka Zuco.  I'm asking

 3     this question on account of the investigation that we are carrying out on

 4     the ground.

 5        A.   May I answer now?  This name appeared when communicating with the

 6     relatives and friends.  Savo Ristanovic is his real name.  However, some

 7     people established a connection with Momcilo because they were related

 8     and probably that's why this mistake happened.  His exact name is

 9     Savo Ristanovic.  I just told you that the contact between these two men

10     and him, or rather with me, was in order to find out more.  When I said

11     that they addressed the Serb soldier, they said that it could have been

12     Momcilo but they quickly corrected themselves and said that his name was

13     Savo Ristanovic.

14        Q.   So let me try to follow what you said.  Would you agree with me

15     that the name stated in your statement, based on your subsequent

16     knowledge, is incorrect, and that the person that you are referring to in

17     your statement, and according to the family of these two men, was

18     Savo Ristanovic and not Momcilo Ristanovic?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's what the witness just explained to you.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then ask one additional question?  Was the

22     nickname of Savo Ristanovic Zuco or did he have a different nickname?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The nickname Zuco is correct.

24     However, the family of these two lads who were killed made a wrongful

25     connection and said Momcilo, but the real name should be Savo Ristanovic.

Page 15466

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   And now another name that you mention and I'm again asking you

 4     this for the purpose of our investigations.  (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We remove to private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15467

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

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Page 15468

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Closed session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Please proceed,

24     Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 15469

 1        Q.   Witness, when you jumped out of the truck in which you were

 2     travelling through that hill, do you know did that truck stop at any

 3     point in time?

 4        A.   Perhaps you misunderstood something here.  If you read carefully

 5     at the statement, you will see that I had jumped out of the truck at the

 6     point where the truck was already halted, when it had already stopped.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let's see if we can clarify that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated] Please proceed.  You're

 9     invited to make a little pause.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Let's see if we can clarify something that is not entirely clear

12     to me.  To the best of your recollection, what time of the night, and

13     according to your testimony it was the night between the 13th and the

14     14th, so at what point in time that night did you jump out of the

15     vehicle?

16        A.   While the Serb soldiers were still there at the school, one of

17     them asked what time it was, and they replied to him that it was 12.00,

18     midnight, at night.  The time it took them to drive the people to the

19     place of the execution was between 20 and 30 minutes of driving.  So the

20     time when they started the first executions was between 12.30 and

21     1.00 a.m.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look in e-court,

23     P1999 -- 1990.  And please do not broadcast that outside of the

24     courtroom.  Could we look at page 7, please, the first paragraph in the

25     B/C/S version and page 6, the second paragraph from the bottom in the

Page 15470

 1     English version.

 2        Q.   While we are waiting for it to appear, would it be accurate to

 3     say that you were told that you needed to go and work on repairing a

 4     shelter?  Were you told that before they boarded you on those trucks?

 5        A.   Yes.  Some said that and the other soldier said that we were

 6     being taken to a military prison.  So there were two versions:  One of

 7     them said that we had to go and repair the military shelters, and the

 8     others were saying don't be afraid, you're being taken to a military

 9     prison.

10        Q.   You can read that in front of you.  In your statement, this is

11     your statement, and you said that it is consistent with your best

12     recollections, the way it's described here is that at that time, when you

13     were told that you needed to go to repair the shelter was at about

14     3.00 a.m. on 14 July 1995.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes.  I see that it says that, 3.00 in early morning hours, so

16     that is to say that we have a difference of about an hour and a half.

17     Now, whether I was not fully precise back then, I don't know, but you can

18     check through all of my other statements that when one Serb soldier asked

19     the other Serb soldier what time it was, the answer was midnight.  So if

20     we take that as an accurate fact, everything else, no matter how we

21     calculate it, cannot be fully precise.  As I said to you, it took some 30

22     minutes to go to the execution site.  So if we have this difference of

23     about an hour and a half, I cannot fully explain it, but if you look at

24     all of my statements, you will see that what I'm saying now --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I think what Mr. Stojanovic intended to do

Page 15471

 1     is to draw the attention of the Chamber to a slight inconsistency of one

 2     hour or one hour and a half.  You've done so, Mr. Stojanovic.  Please

 3     proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   All right.  So let me ask you this:  The shooting itself is not

 6     something that you personally observed, right?

 7        A.   No.  You again misunderstood somewhat.  I said in all of my

 8     statements is that they took the people to the execution site.  The truck

 9     stopped and then they started shooting people, they had already shot

10     three men while I was still sitting on the truck.  The men fell down

11     and -- those who were being shot, and two of the people sitting on the

12     bench with me on the truck started fleeing and were also hit by shots.

13     So at that point in time, five people were already killed, and it is then

14     that I jumped off the truck and started fleeing.

15             It was night time, the terrain was steep, quite steep, which

16     helped me in a way, and that the lights on the truck remained on, so the

17     area in front of the truck was lit up.  The side -- sides on each side of

18     the truck were less lit, just lit up with the light that reflected off

19     the front.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The people who remained on the truck outside of those five,

23     following the moment when you jumped out, you did not see, you did not

24     observe their execution, right?

25        A.   Yes, right.  I fled.  I fled but I heard very loud shots that

Page 15472

 1     resonated, the sound resonated.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  How distant were you from the place where the shots

 3     were heard from?

 4        A.   It is very difficult to estimate the distance, especially since

 5     the terrain was quite steep and I rolled down the hill all the way down

 6     to a tiny river where I found shelter by a rock.  It is from that area

 7     that I heard very loud shots resonating all the way until the end.

 8     I remained in that place until the shots stopped.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Later on, you heard that that area is called Rasica Gaj?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You heard it from the people who are familiar with the area.  My

14     question is:  Following all of these events, at any point in time, did

15     you learn whether any exhumation had taken place there?

16        A.   Mr. Murat, who conducts research, he has an office in Tuzla, and

17     at that point in time I also worked in Tuzla, so this man came to see me

18     one day and he asked me to describe the area where the execution --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether you heard of any

20     exhumation at that spot.  Did you or did you not?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  I heard of the

22     exhumation in the vicinity of that place, not at the exact location but

23     in the vicinity.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That answers the question.

25             Please, Mr. Stojanovic, proceed.

Page 15473

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   And I'm concluding.  When you say in the immediate vicinity, what

 3     exactly location are you referring to?

 4        A.   I don't know the exact location, but if you get in touch with the

 5     gentleman I just mentioned, I know that some of the victims are already

 6     buried in the Potocari memorial centre, some of the victims who were

 7     together with me at the time of the execution.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You are unable to tell us what the distance was.

 9     That is the answer to the question.

10             Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Now, tell us, please, did you learn at any point in time where

13     the remains of those people buried in Potocari were found, of the people

14     mentioned by you today?

15        A.   I was interested before, and I'm still interested, I wanted to

16     meet with this gentleman to learn the exact location where they were

17     identified, and so far I haven't been able to find that out.

18        Q.   Is it true that in the area of Rasica Gaj, they were unable to

19     identify any burial site?

20        A.   I said in the immediate vicinity, and this is what I learned from

21     the media.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, and if I may put

24     another two questions, which need to be put in private session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 15474

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

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Page 15475











11  Page 15475 redacted.  Private session.















Page 15476

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, is there any need to ask further

20     questions to the witness?

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, there is.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

25        Q.   Witness, you were asked about your recollection of the names of

Page 15477

 1     some of the individuals that you were with by Mr. Stojanovic on

 2     cross-examination.  What I'd like to start by showing you is a document,

 3     it's 65 ter -- well, no, I'm sorry, it's P1982.  It should not be

 4     broadcast, and it is the --

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the Chamber's benefit, confidential annex D

 6     to Mr. Janc's report.

 7        Q.   When you were asked by Mr. Stojanovic about whether you

 8     remembered the names, full names, at least, of the individuals you were

 9     with on the date that you were nearly executed.  You said you couldn't

10     remember.  And I want to ask you about this to see if it refreshes your

11     recollection.  We will need to go to page 312.  And I just want to refer

12     you to the left-hand side or column, the second from the left, and you

13     can see a number of names there.  The first one I want to direct your

14     attention to is the individual named at number 7.

15        A.   Yes, I can see it.  (redacted)  I mentioned him by name in my

16     statement and I believe that Mr. Stojanovic asked me about him.  That was

17     a man who worked with the Dutch Battalion and who was taken to the school

18     where --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, could you please phrase your

20     question for the witness?  You've asked him to direct his attention to

21     number 7.  What is your question?

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:

23        Q.   My question is whether or not the information that you see

24     relative to that individual is consistent with your recollection of his

25     identity?  That would be the age first, and obviously the name?

Page 15478

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  That's the man that I mentioned.

 2        Q.   Then let me ask you about similarly about the individuals listed

 3     under item number 8.

 4        A.   Yes.  These are the two brothers that I also mentioned, (redacted)

 5     (redacted)  They were wounded and they were also brought into the school

 6     building.

 7        Q.   Does this help refresh your recollection as to their last name?

 8        A.   I never mentioned their last name.  It was their relatives who

 9     always mentioned their full names.  Believe me that many names were

10     mentioned and I couldn't remember all of them, so I cannot confirm this

11     with any certainty apart from what I said that their first names were

12     (redacted)

13        Q.   Thank you for that.  Let me ask you about item number 16 or

14     rather the name that's associated with number 16.  Do you recognise that

15     name?

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, if you want to keep this all

23     confidential, not to be broadcast, then reading all the names from the

24     list is not what you're expected to do, is it?

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I haven't indicated what the document is and

Page 15479

 1     I think that preserves the integrity of the reason for the

 2     confidentiality, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  All the references to the names will be redacted.

 4     And if you have further questions which require the names to be

 5     mentioned, please ask for private session.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Then I'll ask for private session,

 7     Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15480











11  Pages 15480-15482 redacted.  Private session.















Page 15483

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 8             Witness, this concludes your testimony in this Court.  I'd like

 9     to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having

10     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

11     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  All of us who can say

13     that we are positive human beings, we have to fight for justice and

14     truth.  I would like to say here that my aim is always to fight for

15     justice and against hatred.  In actual fact, we are talking here about

16     the outcome of this hatred.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I appreciate that you have positive

18     feelings, but it's not the place at this moment to share them in a little

19     speech, so you are -- it's -- would you please follow the usher?  And

20     after we have turned into closed session.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you once again.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15484

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I already would like to remind the Defence that the

 6     deadline for the Rule 94 bis notice falls on the 26th of August in

 7     relation to Witness Theunens.  I would have said more about it but I just

 8     remind you of that.

 9             Then I also remind the Prosecution that there are deadlines in

10     relation to the remainder of the 92 bis and 92 quater filings.  I would

11     have said more about it if we had more time, but I just leave it at that

12     at this very moment.

13             And then, Mr. Registrar, we are in open session again?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session now, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the last thing I would just briefly put

16     on the record is the following:  (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15485

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5             We adjourn for the day, and the Chamber apologises to all those

 6     assisting us that we have stolen ten extra minutes from your time, and we

 7     will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 22nd of August, 9.30 in the morning

 8     in this same courtroom, III.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.25 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of

11                           August, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.