Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16280

 1                           Thursday, 5 September 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Mr. McCloskey?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

12     Everyone.  One small update, we've identified a translation error that

13     occurred with a Witness RM322 on May 28th.  It was Exhibit P01500,

14     65 ter 04032.  We've uploaded a revised English translation under ID

15     00822150 ET/1 and have informed the Registry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber requests, then, the court officer

17     to replace the original translation with the revised one and the Defence

18     has an opportunity to revisit it.  I've got no idea what the document is,

19     Mr. McCloskey, but if you would be so kind to tell the Defence where the

20     change is found, then it may save them quite some time in trying to

21     locate the error.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, Ms. Stewart will be able to

23     do that quickly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the witness be escorted into the

25     courtroom.        

Page 16281

 1             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to deal with a -- with a

 2     Rule 94 bis filing for Witness Brown.  The Chamber has granted last week

 3     a Prosecution request to reclassify as confidential certain annexes of

 4     the Rule 94 bis filing for Witness Brown.  Due to the format of the

 5     filing, the Registry is instructed to redistribute the entire filing as

 6     confidential and the Prosecution is invited to file a public redacted

 7     version thereof.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9                           WITNESS:  RICHARD BUTLER [Resumed]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Butler.

11             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps needless to say but nevertheless, you're

13     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

14     your testimony that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

15     but the truth.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey will now continue his examination.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 6289.

19                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

20        Q.   And, Mr. Butler, good morning.  We are on 13 July and the --

21     going over some of the materials you studied in your capacity as the

22     intelligence analyst for the Srebrenica team.

23             And this is from a now-familiar person, Ljubisa Borovcanin and it

24     is one of his -- a report to the Minister of Interior, Ministry of

25     Interior Special Police Brigade, as we see 13 July.  Again I won't go all

Page 16282

 1     over all of it but if we could look at that first page in English and we

 2     see the description of the units that went into Potocari across Zuti Most

 3     in the early morning hours and took control of Potocari at 1300 hours,

 4     and took control of the Budak and Milacevici features?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, sorry for interrupting, you said

 6     at the beginning the report to the minister and then Ministry of the

 7     Interior Special Police Brigade.  I only see this term on top of that

 8     page.  That seems to be the institution from which this letter was sent.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's absolutely correct.  I apologise.  We see

10     that it's to the Pale police staff and the other two people listed there.

11     That is the heading.  Thank you for that clarification -- that

12     correction.

13        Q.   Mr. Butler, the -- that first paragraph, does that comport with

14     your understanding of the events from other documents and videos and

15     other materials you've studied?

16        A.   Yes, sir, it does.

17        Q.   And it says:

18             "In Potocari, we sealed off the main UN base where a throng of

19     between 25.000 and 30.000 civilians had gathered."

20             Again, is that number within the rough estimates that you have

21     seen repeatedly?

22        A.   Yes, sir.

23        Q.   What about this approximately 5 per cent of whom were able-bodied

24     men?  5 per cent of 25.000, what do you make of that figure, based on

25     your understandings?

Page 16283

 1        A.   I -- it appears to be roughly in line with other documents that

 2     I've seen, which corresponds to somewhere north of a thousand, maybe up

 3     to 2.000, individuals who are ultimately separated at Potocari, I believe

 4     there are some VRS reports that indicate that.

 5        Q.   All right.  I won't do the math on the percentages but we can do

 6     that.  And we see that the -- it notes that the MUP forces was involved

 7     in the organisation of the evacuation of the civilians, and did you see

 8     that on the video that you studied?

 9        A.   Yes, sir, that is correct.

10        Q.   On the next page in English, we -- it speaks of combat on the

11     night between the 12th and 13th and a loss of -- "the enemy sustained a

12     loss of 200 soldiers who were killed and we captured or had surrendered

13     to us around 1500 Muslim soldiers and the number increases by the hour."

14             Can you tell us very briefly what are you -- what do you know

15     about any potential combat where the Muslims lost significant numbers?

16        A.   Yes, sir.  On the evening of 12 July 1995, and through the early

17     morning, the dark hours of 13 July 1995, the portion of the column that

18     was still south of the Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba road again attempted to

19     cross over the road to join the portion of the column that had made it

20     across the night before.  By and large, they were not successful in being

21     able to cross the road, small elements of them did get through, but by

22     that time, the Bosnian Serb military, as well as police forces, had been

23     able to gather in that area in enough strength to prevent the full

24     remnant of the column from successfully crossing the road.

25        Q.   And this notice that they had captured or surrendered 1500

Page 16284

 1     Muslims and it was increasing by the hour, what day do you take this

 2     increasing by the hour to mean?

 3        A.   This would be on 13 July 1995, sir.

 4        Q.   And is this -- if we recall going through the after-action report

 5     from yesterday, was this number mentioned in it?

 6        A.   No, sir.  When one looks at Colonel Borovcanin's after-action

 7     report that was published in September 1995, there is no mention to the

 8     fact that his forces at any time held prisoners.

 9        Q.   Do you make anything of that?

10        A.   By September of 1995, clearly Colonel Borovcanin would believe

11     that it is in his interest not to be mentioning the fact that his units

12     had prisoners.  Certainly by then not only did all of the VRS with

13     respect to Eastern Bosnia have a fairly good idea of exactly happened and

14     why but by then even the international community was levelling

15     allegations and in some cases showing documentation or aerial images that

16     highlighted the broad-scale massacres.

17        Q.   All right.  And finally in that last paragraph, it says:

18             "Muslim soldiers who did not manage to break through is on the

19     rise and is approximately between 5.000 and 6.000."

20             How does this relate to what you were just telling us about

21     that -- that combat and the inability of many -- many Muslims not to get

22     across the road?

23        A.   Yes, sir.  It corresponds to that and there will be other

24     military documents, for example, coming from the Bratunac Brigade or the

25     other military unit there, the 5th Engineer Battalion, that I believe

Page 16285

 1     offer similar number estimates as to those remaining in the woods.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer that document in evidence.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06289 receives number P2117,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P2117 is admitted.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 4051 now?

 9        Q.   And as we are waiting, we'll see this is a -- what is now --

10     should be a familiar, the reports that Dragomir Vasic, the chief of the

11     centre, police centre for Zvornik, is sending out.  This is dated 13 July

12     and it talks about a meeting in the morning with General Mladic where:

13             "We were informed that the VRS was continuing operations towards

14     Zepa and leaving all other work to the MUP as follows.

15             "Evacuation of the remaining civilian population from Srebrenica

16     to Kladanj, about 15.000."

17             Talks about needing petrol.

18             Is -- does this information comport with the other documents and

19     material you've seen?

20        A.   Yes, sir.

21        Q.   And the next line, it says:

22             "Killing of about 8.000 Muslim soldiers whom we blocked in the

23     woods near Konjevic Polje, fighting is going on, this job is being done

24     solely by MUP units."

25             What do you think this reference to killing of about 8.000

Page 16286

 1     Muslims who were blocked and then with the additional sentence, "fighting

 2     is going on"?  How do you interpret that?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  I rise -- the B/C/S original does not say "killing."

 7     It says "liquidation."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we seek confirmation there?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'll agree with that.  That's well known and

10     it's -- "liquidation" is always a tricky word to translate.  In fact it

11     could be done as "liquidating" but I --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It's -- we see that "likvidacija" is the word

13     used there, and may I take it that it is a point of dispute on what that

14     means between the parties.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm note sure there is, really.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then there is not.  That's good.

17             Now, has the word "likvidacija" been verified as being properly

18     translated in "killing" or --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In my view, it depends on the context of the way

20     it's used.  We've seen it used in the context of combat.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mainly my question is has it been verified?  I mean

22     if CLSS has considered that in this context this is the right

23     translation, then I would just like to know whether attention has been

24     paid to it.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, this term has been used and, for years, with

Page 16287

 1     no issues, so as many of these things, they are self verified for years

 2     because --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Self verification is not something I -- Mr. Ivetic,

 4     do you challenge the translation into "killing" or do you draw our

 5     attention to the fact that this translation may depend on circumstantial

 6     considerations?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I think that "liquidation" in a military sense has a

 8     specific meaning and that is not the same as "killing" so I dispute the

 9     translation as being an accurate translation of this document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then has it ever been verified by CLSS?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't recall any -- any resubmission of this by

12     anyone.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then since there is a challenge, I leave it

14     to Mr. Ivetic whether or not he wants to submit it for verification.  Our

15     attention has been drawn to the issue.  The original says "likvidacija,"

16     the translation before us now is "killing."  Please proceed.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:

18        Q.   And Mr. Butler, in looking at that, in the term that's used that

19     you're evaluating, what kind of killing do you interpret that to mean?

20        A.   Yes, sir.  I went through the same issue when I first saw the

21     particular context of this word and obviously I am aware that there is a

22     more sinister English connotation than in fact I've been told by various

23     translators that exist in the word in Serbo-Croatian.  In this particular

24     context, I take this language to mean that they are going to continue the

25     job of killing in a military sense, a military attack on the remnants of

Page 16288

 1     the column.

 2        Q.   So you view this as a report on continuing combat?  Is that

 3     similar to what Mr. Borovcanin mentioned in the previous document, that

 4     we have combat ahead of us?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   Or Borovcanin and Vasic in your view talking about the same group

 7     of Muslims?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.  I mean they're both up and down that road on 13 July

 9     so both individuals have an opportunity to gain information from the

10     various police units, particularly that are along the road, so the fact

11     that they would have a common picture of what they understood the

12     military situation looked like for the remnants of the column that were

13     trapped in that area on 13 July 1995 is not surprising.

14        Q.   Mr. President, that is our view of the context of this so I don't

15     know if that solves the problem but --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not my problem at this moment.  It was

17     Mr. Ivetic's problem.  I think I've been clear if he considers that it

18     needs to be further verified, he can ask for that and otherwise --

19             MR. IVETIC:  That was my understanding.  That's my understanding

20     and I will comply with that, Your Honours, and get that fixed.  My

21     concern is, of course, when someone sees the document apart from the

22     transcript it could lead to different conclusions.  For clarity I think I

23     will submit it and I'll report back once that is done.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

Page 16289

 1        Q.   In fact, was there -- was there fighting with these thousands or

 2     by the end of the 13th, what does -- what do the documents show as we'll

 3     soon get to?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.  What the documents show not only on the 13th but also

 5     on the 14th, 15th, 16th, through the 17th and 18th, that the army and the

 6     police units that are surrounding the column are still engaged and

 7     conducting military operations against it through at least the

 8     18th of July, 1995.

 9        Q.   And by the end of the 13th, how many of these thousands actually

10     surrendered along that road, from the documents and intercepts you've

11     reviewed?

12        A.   The documents, the intercepted communications of the various

13     members of the VRS and police on the road, as well as images from a

14     source known as the video along that road that was done by

15     Minister Petrovic, reflects that somewhere between 2.000 and

16     3.000 individuals from the column probably surrendered on that day and

17     are assembled in various places along the road.  And as we go further in

18     through some of the documents and some of the information, some of these

19     correspondents will give numbers of the estimates of these individuals

20     that they have captured and where they are located at various points in

21     time.

22        Q.   All right.  And we'll go over that.  You have over the years

23     provided estimates of roughly what your view of how many people may have

24     been killed in the woods in possible combat from the area of Buljim all

25     the way up to Baljkovica.  What rough estimates have you provided?

Page 16290

 1        A.   The issue of the column or at least how I look at the column is

 2     kind of in part why I explained the estimates that I've given.  My early

 3     understanding of the composition of the column and of the battle

 4     casualties result of it in the early part of the investigation are

 5     between 1.000 and 2.000 individuals, I believe, killed in combat with the

 6     VRS from the origin of the column through Baljkovica.  Now, I've not in

 7     detail analysed the military activities of the column with respect to the

 8     various ambushes that it's been involved in, nor have I really looked at

 9     the issue of the column and tried to parse through casualties for other

10     reasons.  I think that's impossible to do and I certainly didn't attempt

11     to do it.

12             For me, the issue of the column was only germane for two

13     particular reasons.  The first reason was, from an analytical and

14     military perspective alone for my analysis, whether or not the column was

15     a military object subject to attack or not and I've concluded that it was

16     and I understand that there is another school of thought out there on the

17     subject.  The second issue that I care about analytically of the column

18     is being able to retrace the column's route during various days and at

19     various times so that when there is issues related to military activity

20     primarily by the Zvornik Infantry Brigade on the days of the mass

21     executions, I am able to distinguish between that military activity that

22     was involved in what I considered to be legitimate combat operations

23     against the column and that military activity that was not engaged

24     against the column and correspondingly was used to support the mass

25     executions that were occurring in the zone of the Zvornik Infantry

Page 16291

 1     Brigade from the 14th through the 17th.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that into evidence.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No objection with the caveat that I will send to

 5     CLSS but I think it can be admitted.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04051 receives number P2118,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P2118 is admitted.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could we now see 65 ter 4036.

11        Q.   This is another -- a document from 13 July, with the heading of

12     the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska to the commands of the

13     Drina Corps and several brigades, entitled, "Order to prevent the passage

14     of Muslim groups towards Tuzla and Kladanj."  And again I won't go over

15     this in detail.  But I do want to note on the second page that it's from

16     assistant commander Lieutenant General Milan Gvero, and it's talking

17     about the column and referring to them, saying:

18             "Among them are inveterate criminals and villains who will stop

19     at nothing just to avoid being captured and reach Muslim-controlled

20     territory."

21             It goes on to talk about:

22             "Detain the captured and disarmed Muslims in appropriate

23     facilities," that's in paragraph 3 under the order, "that can be secured

24     by fewer troops, and immediately report to the superior command."

25             And at the second page in the English as we can see it says:

Page 16292

 1             "Send interim reports with specific details of the situation in

 2     the area of responsibility of all units so that the corps command and the

 3     Main Staff can act in a timely manner."

 4             Briefly, Mr. Butler, how is it that General Gvero in your view is

 5     getting involved in this?

 6        A.   Yes, sir.  As we are aware, with respect to where people are, at

 7     this point in time, General Mladic is still in the Srebrenica-Bratunac

 8     area.  General Tolimir is down in Zepa.  I believe General Miletic is

 9     still present at the Main Staff but certainly so is General Gvero, and so

10     the fact that as a general and as a senior officer of the Main Staff, the

11     fact that he would put out an order like this under his own name to the

12     Drina Corps and various units for this information, is not surprising.

13     Again, one of the basic bedrock foundations when one looks at these

14     various documents that I ascribe to is the fact that the VRS is a

15     professional army, these individuals, many of these generals have 20,

16     30 years of experience as well as a significant amount of professional

17     education and that in the context of the issuing of military orders and

18     documents, they are not going to issue orders and documents that they

19     know that they are not authorised to issue.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

21             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04036 receives number P2119,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

Page 16293

 1             May I ask one additional question on this document?  On the

 2     second page, there seems to be quite some attention to the use of secure

 3     channels of communication, about the captured or blocked groups.  Is that

 4     common in an order, to emphasise the necessity of the use of secure

 5     channels, or is it exceptional that you specifically pay attention to

 6     that?

 7             THE WITNESS:  I don't believe it's exceptional, sir.  The army of

 8     the Republika Srpska obviously was aware that their communications or

 9     much of their communications were subject to intercept.  One of the

10     secure forms that he would be talking about is that while they had some

11     encryption devices, sending these types of message via radio telegraph

12     was considered to be one of the more secure forms of communication

13     because it could not be readily intercepted.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I see that what is everyone was expected

15     to do.  My question was more about emphasising it again in an order where

16     it should perhaps be routine to use secure channels.  So my question is

17     how common is it to specifically pay attention to it in an order like

18     this one?

19             THE WITNESS:  While I take your point, given that it should have

20     been a routine issue, on the 13th of July, 1995, the VRS was capturing

21     and gaining custody of thousands of individuals which was not a routine

22     situation for it.  It had never obviously captured that many people on a

23     single day.  The idea that keeping at least your adversary, the 2nd Corps

24     ABiH, keeping them in the dark about how many people are actually being

25     captured, as well as what the actual military situation involved on the

Page 16294

 1     ground is something that they would want to achieve.  So the 2nd Corps

 2     people don't know what's going on to that extent.  So it is a routine

 3     thing to do to not talk about prisoners or not talk about people you

 4     capture or not talk about military operations, but there was nothing

 5     routine about the fact that they were capturing so many people and that

 6     may have prompted General Gvero to feel he needed to reiterate this.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to the next document, it's

 9     P1255.

10        Q.   This is an intercept that the Trial Chamber has seen.  And

11     therefore I don't want to have to spend too much time with it,

12     Mr. Butler, but we can see that it's the 13th of July and that the -- at

13     1015 hours, and the participants are Beara, Lucic, Zoka - and this should

14     be confidential - and do you -- who do you take Beara and Lucic to be?

15        A.   Beara is Colonel Beara, the head of the VRS security office.  I

16     believe the investigation has identified Lucic as Lieutenant Lucic, the

17     assistant commander for intelligence and security of the 65th Protection

18     Regiment.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This document should not be broadcast.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

21        Q.   And we see Beara is speaking on this and he says:

22             "Do you hear me?  Do you know that 400 balijas have shown up in

23     Konjevic Polje?"

24             They talk a bit about that, disarmed.  And it says, he goes on at

25     the bottom of the page to say:

Page 16295

 1             "Shove them on the -- all on the playground, who gives a fuck

 2     about them."

 3             This use of this term, Mr. Butler, is this an example of what you

 4     were referring to about senior officers using derogatory terms towards

 5     the enemy?

 6        A.   Yes, sir, I discussed this yesterday.

 7        Q.   All right.  And it goes on to say on the next page of the

 8     English:

 9             "Well, line up -- line them up in four to five rows."

10             So where do you take -- who are these -- what's he referring to

11     and where do you take this to mean, these people are being put?

12        A.   The Military Police Platoon -- I'm sorry Military Police

13     Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment is garrisoned in Nova Kasaba.

14     In this particular context, the people that he's referring to are

15     individuals, the Bosnian Muslims who are being captured as a result of

16     the column attempting to cross the road, and the location that they are

17     talking about putting them on the playground is in fact putting them on

18     the soccer pitch that is in Nova Kasaba.

19        Q.   And as part of your investigation, did you review aerial imagery

20     of that pitch?

21        A.   Yes, sir, I have seen an aerial image of that pitch on

22     13 July 1995.

23        Q.   Was it consistent with this information on this intercept?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   Now, Colonel Beara, in the various other intercepts that you've

Page 16296

 1     reviewed, some of which we'll be going over, and references and

 2     documents, very briefly, what was he involved in during the days of 13,

 3     14, 15, 16, from your analysis of those intercepts and documents, but

 4     just very briefly, not in detail?

 5        A.   Colonel Beara, with respect to the broader crime base, is a

 6     central figure.  He is -- on the 13th he is noted very deeply involved

 7     with issues related to getting counts of prisoners.  On the 14th, 15th

 8     and 16th, the military documents and the intercepts have him up in the

 9     Zvornik Brigade area where much of his activities also correspond to the

10     executions of the prisoners that are being held in schools in the

11     Zvornik Brigade area.  So he is a central figure, a key central figure.

12        Q.   And in any of the materials that you've read, have you found any

13     indication that he was involved in proper counter-intelligence work,

14     which we've heard should be 80 per cent of his job, or the 20 per cent

15     military legal work?  Any legitimate work that you see Colonel Beara

16     involved in from any of the documents or references?

17        A.   Well, obviously in his respect in -- his defence was he was doing

18     just that, so as a result of my responsibilities as the team military

19     analyst obviously it is an issue that I looked into very heavily to see

20     if we -- there was any information that could corroborate that.  All of

21     his activities had to do with the criminal actions related to the

22     prisoners.  We were not able to substantiate that any of the activity

23     that he was performing with respect to dealing with the prisoners was any

24     activity that could correspond to his counter-intelligence

25     responsibilities of his functions as the chief of security for the VRS.

Page 16297

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to the next document, P1558.

 2        Q.   And as we'll see this is a document from the IKM of the

 3     65th Motorised Protection Regiment and at the top, it says:  "Borike at

 4     1400 hours."  Can you tell us -- and if we go to the second page in

 5     English we'll see what -- it's Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic.

 6             First of all, tell us who Savcic was at the time?

 7        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic at the time was the commander of the

 8     65th Protection Regiment.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm not sure we have -- this is the

10     right document up in e-court.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  1558.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  This one seems to be better.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's it.

14        Q.   So we go back to the -- we now see that that's Savcic and you've

15     told us who he is and we see that it's the time it was dated.  Now, what

16     is Borike?

17        A.   Borike was a forward command post associated with the Zepa

18     operation.  I believe it was the command post of the -- the forward

19     command post of the Rogatica Brigade, and they used this also as a

20     command post with respect to their ongoing first negotiations and later

21     military attack at least as far as the Rogatica Brigade was, on Zepa.

22        Q.   Okay.  And we see that it's entitled "Procedure for treatment of

23     war prisoners" and it's to the commander of the Main Staff for his

24     information.  And then it says assistant commander for morale, religious,

25     legal affairs of the Main Staff.  You've identified that as

Page 16298

 1     General Gvero, for his information, and to the commander of the Military

 2     Police Battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment order.  Who -- remind us

 3     who is the commander of the 65th Protection Regiment -- excuse me, the

 4     Military Police Battalion of the 65th?

 5        A.   The commander of the Military Police Battalion is

 6     Major Zoran Malinic, so in this particular sense, Lieutenant-Colonel

 7     Savcic is his immediate superior.

 8        Q.   All right.  And we see that it starts out with:

 9             "There are over 1.000 members of the former 28th Division of the

10     so-called BiH army captured in the area of Dusanovo, Kasaba, prisoners

11     are under control of the Military Police Battalion of the 65th Protection

12     Regiment."

13             Is that information consistent with what you learned, that there

14     were a thousand prisoners in Kasaba at about this time on that date?

15        A.   Yes, sir, it is.

16        Q.   And where do you think they are in Kasaba based on this document?

17        A.   Again, my understanding is that most of the prisoners were being

18     assembled on the open soccer pitch.  It was one of the few places where

19     they had enough space for them.

20        Q.   The next line is:

21             "Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the

22     Main Staff proposes the following measures."

23             And this title, who is this a reference to?

24        A.   The assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of

25     the Army of the Republika Srpska is General Major Tolimir.

Page 16299

 1        Q.   And it says -- so Tolimir proposes -- well, to paraphrase,

 2     Tolimir proposes the following measures.  What does -- this indication

 3     that he's proposing something, does this tell you anything about what --

 4     where -- what Savcic is doing and where Tolimir may be?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.  And again I've testified about this particular

 6     document before.  My understanding of this document is that at the time

 7     that this document is drafted, General Tolimir is together with

 8     Colonel Savcic and that this is actually a two part document depending on

 9     whether it is addressed to you for information purposes or whether it is

10     addressed to you as to take as an order.  The first two points are

11     proposals by General Tolimir to the broader Main Staff suggesting

12     security and other proposals that should be taken as a result of what is

13     happening.  When you look at points 3 and 4, you can see that they are

14     not proposals, they are in fact orders, and they are orders specifically

15     to the Military Police Battalion, which falls under the command of

16     Colonel Savcic.  So again, while it is a combined document, on one hand

17     Colonel Savcic is in writing putting down the proposals based off of his

18     knowledge of what they are from General Tolimir, and in the other part of

19     it he's giving orders to his subordinate formation.

20        Q.   All right.  And we can see that the first two proposals have to

21     do with secure -- secrecy and securing those -- the two roadway areas.

22     And does that -- do those areas described there, does that include the --

23     where the prisoners are being assembled at the soccer pitch in your view?

24        A.   Yes, sir.  That would include -- I mean obviously it would

25     include part of the soccer pitch because that's where the

Page 16300

 1     65th Military Police Battalion is.

 2        Q.   All right.  And getting to point 3:

 3             "Commander of the Military Police Battalion shall take measures

 4     to remove war prisoners from the main Milici-Zvornik road, place them

 5     somewhere indoors or in an area protected from sighting from the ground

 6     or the air."

 7             Who had access to the air, to day-time flights at this time in

 8     the war, as far as you know, in this area?

 9        A.   The VRS was well aware that NATO was conducting, was flying over

10     Bosnian air space to include the Republika Srpska, and is aware that

11     there was aerial reconnaissance being done, not only by aircraft but by

12     unmanned aerial vehicles.

13        Q.   And in your view, at 1400 hours, was the -- had murder operation

14     orders been issued?

15        A.   Yes, sir.

16        Q.   And does this order to place people indoors or in an area

17     protected from sighting from the ground or the air in your view have any

18     relation to that?

19        A.   Yes, sir, I've given the opinion that it does.  As the Court will

20     be aware, particularly on the 13 July, during the day-time hours, the VRS

21     was still moving busloads of individuals from Potocari along the road

22     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Milici out towards Kladanj, so also going along

23     those roads would be various UN personnel that could still get out of

24     Potocari and had not been taken into the custody of the VRS or had their

25     vehicles confiscated.  So there was a concern, as noted here, to both

Page 16301

 1     hide the numbers of prisoners who were taken from aerial observation as

 2     well as to place them in positions where they could not be viewed from

 3     the road.

 4        Q.   All right.  And going to the next page in English, we see that it

 5     says:

 6             "Once the commander of the Military Police Battalion receives

 7     this order, he shall contact General Miletic and receive from him

 8     additional orders."

 9             Where do we get Miletic involved here?  How does this fit in your

10     view?

11        A.   Yes, sir.  Again General Miletic is the chief of operations for

12     the VRS Main Staff.  The closing of major road networks, for whatever

13     reason, General Tolimir felt that that was beyond his authority to

14     direct.  The proposal in part sent to General Gvero at the Main Staff

15     obviously would be shared with General Miletic of the Main Staff but

16     ultimately it would be the decision of General Miletic as the chief of

17     operations whether these roads would be closed.  In light of the fact

18     that these proposals have been made, it's not unsurprising that

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic, being engaged in other things at the time,

20     would instruct his subordinate commander to directly contact another unit

21     or in this case, the Main Staff, in order to verify that the proposal had

22     been accepted or to get additional instructions in the event that the

23     proposal was modified somehow.

24        Q.   So on that point, right at the end, it says verify if the

25     proposal has been approved by the commander of the VRS.  And I take it

Page 16302

 1     you're saying these first two points, is that the proposal that is being

 2     referred to in paragraph 4 in your view?

 3        A.   Yes, sir.

 4        Q.   And was Mladic -- did you find any -- any information or

 5     documents to indicate whether they were able to verify with the

 6     commander, Mladic, on this point?

 7        A.   I'm not aware if General Miletic coordinated directly with

 8     General Mladic on this point or not.  What I am aware of is that

 9     apparently the proposals were accepted because there will be supplemental

10     orders issued that in effect does close those roads to most civilian

11     traffic.

12        Q.   By who?

13        A.   I'd have to look at the document.  The name is not coming to me

14     off the top of my head.

15        Q.   All right.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, which is

17     65 ter number 5700.

18        Q.   And we'll see this is -- has the top from the -- top marking

19     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, it's 13 July, and we can see

20     if we look at the Serbian version, it's from General Mladic with an SR

21     next to it, which, in speaking with Mr. Ivetic, we can agree that the SR

22     term, I believe -- and he pronounces it better than I do and in the

23     proper tense so if he could say that, I would appreciate it.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Svojom Rukom [Interpretation] In his own hand.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we see on this there is a translation into

Page 16303

 1     "signature" on the original.  Our translator said in the courtroom if

 2     you've -- we've all heard, "in his own hand."  I'm fine with either of

 3     them.  The Main Staff officers may have a better idea of which one is

 4     more appropriate.  Again a context issue.

 5        Q.   All right.  Mr. Butler, is this one of the documents you were

 6     talking about just now, where you said that we would see if the proposals

 7     were followed?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   We can see that this is from General Mladic.  We can see that

10     it's entitled, "Preventing leakage of military secrets in the area of

11     combat operations, order."  And then we can see:  In order to ensure the

12     organised conduct of planned combat operations, mentions Srebrenica, and

13     then we see the various closures and notices and other references on this

14     topic.  If we look at the bottom of the English page, number 5, it says,

15     ban on giving information.  And then it goes on, particularly on

16     prisoners of war, evacuated civilians, escapees and similar.  We don't

17     see any order about putting people indoors or outside the air but do you

18     connect this document at all with the proposal from General Tolimir

19     issued in Savcic's name?

20        A.   Yes, sir, I do.

21        Q.   How?

22        A.   Again, when one looks at the road closures and in general, the

23     fact that -- prevent giving them information about the announcements,

24     it's clear that General Mladic has at least been briefed about the broad

25     outlines of General Tolimir's proposals and this is -- accepted them,

Page 16304

 1     modified or amplified some as he felt necessary and is issuing this as an

 2     order.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I'd offer this into evidence.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05700 receives number P2200,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now could we have P1280?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I doubt if this is the correct number.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, Your Honour, P2120, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P2120 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And P1280 should be not shown.  It's an

14     intercept.

15        Q.   And Mr. Butler, you'll see that this is an intercept from the

16     2nd Corps, from 1602 hours, and in looking at the context of this

17     intercept, do you know what date it's talking about?

18        A.   Yes, sir.  It's 13 July 1995.

19        Q.   All right.  And it's X and Y and it mentions where Malinic unit

20     is, they said that there are 1500 gathered at the stadium.  So this is a

21     couple hours later than the document related to the thousand people.  Is

22     this the same area that you were talking about before, the stadium where

23     Malinic unit is?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   And that's Malinic unit, the 65th Protection Regiment military

Page 16305

 1     police group?

 2        A.   It's the Military Police Battalion of the 65th Protection

 3     Regiment, yes, sir.

 4        Q.   All right.  And it in fact says that in the last line where it --

 5     and it says:  "We probably won't let any get by."

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next intercept which should also

 7     not be shown.  P1281.

 8        Q.   Another 2nd Corps intercept at 1730 hours, between X and Y.  And

 9     you had mentioned there would be materials where numbers of estimates and

10     prisoners were given by the VRS.  Is this one of those materials that

11     you're referring to?

12        A.   Yes, sir.

13        Q.   And you had testified that you'd thought there were 2.000 to

14     3.000.  We now see from this:  "Well, tell them right away to come.

15     There is about 6.000 of them."

16             What do you think this 6.000 is referring to?

17        A.   This would be the correspondent's estimates of how many prisoners

18     that they already had in their custody along a large stretch of the road.

19        Q.   How do you know this is a reference to prisoners and not

20     something else?

21        A.   Well, as one looks down, again, first, when one looks at 13 July,

22     this is a 13 July 1995 intercept, when you look at the body of this

23     particular intercept, it discusses that they have them at various

24     locations along three points.  Other documents and intercepts as well as

25     the investigation are able to corroborate that at three different points

Page 16306

 1     there were large groups of prisoners being held by the VRS on

 2     13 July 1995.

 3        Q.   Remind us of those three points?

 4        A.   One of them was the soccer field at Nova Kasaba, football pitch.

 5     Another one was at the intersection at Konjevic Polje.  And the third one

 6     was where they were assembling many of them on the meadow of Sandici.

 7        Q.   So we've just seen documents and intercepts about the soccer

 8     field that up to 1500 that afternoon.  If we go to Sandici and Kravica,

 9     what are the rough estimates from the video and the documents and the

10     exhumations from Sandici and Kravica for that grouping?

11        A.   Well, I try to remain conservative, and again I'd look at it as

12     there is probably about a thousand prisoners at each location, for a

13     total of 3.000, I would say.  Obviously, there was not an accurate

14     headcount done by anybody so the fact that the numbers are all off the

15     board, either up or down, is not surprising.  So when we always talk

16     about the numbers of prisoners that are being captured, they are in

17     generalities but certainly they number in the thousands and not the

18     hundreds or not even the tens.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to another intercept,

20     P01615.  I see it's -- I believe it's break time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for a break.  Could we ask the usher to

22     escort the witness out of the courtroom.  We take a break of 20 minutes,

23     Mr. Butler.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

Page 16307

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             Could we go to P1064?

 8        Q.   I'm going out of chronology for a moment, Mr. Butler.  I believe

 9     this is a document you've spoken to, about, before.  If we could -- we'll

10     look at it, that it's from the command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry

11     Brigade dated 8 August 1995, to the command of the Drina Corps.  It's a

12     daily combat report and we can see from the next page it's from the

13     commander of that brigade, Rajko Kusic, and it is briefly in the days

14     August 8th, were those the days after the Zepa enclave had fallen and

15     there were Muslim men and boys fleeing in the woods?

16        A.   Yes, sir.

17        Q.   And this, we see the term liquidated, which I wanted to see if we

18     can get a better handle on that term.  We see on 7 August 1995, in the

19     afternoon, in the canyon of the Praca river, five remaining balijas who

20     were after the fall of Zepa travelling along the following route.  And it

21     gives a detailed route.  Crossed the Drina River on logs.  Another route.

22     Went down the railroad tracks at Dub and tried to reach Renovica walking

23     on the railroad tracks were liquidated.  And there is some Serbian term

24     that sounds like that being used in the original.

25             The group was separate and travelled for 10 days.  The same day

Page 16308

 1     in the vicinity of Luke, an unarmed Ustasha born on the 24th -- excuse

 2     me, born in Srebrenica, 24 years old, was liquidated.

 3             Do you, in the context of these people being killed, do you find

 4     that there is anything related to combat in this account of these people

 5     being liquidated?

 6        A.   No sir.

 7        Q.   In fact, what do you find this to be -- what is this?

 8        A.   Again, the absence of any indication of combat activities taking

 9     place would lead to the inference that these people were killed after

10     capture, because they were able to at least get some information from one

11     of the persons.

12        Q.   Okay.  So this is of course a different context than the 8.000

13     being liquidated that Vasic mentions; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, correct, sir.

15        Q.   Let's get back on track.  That's already in evidence.

16             Let's go to P1786.  And this is a Drina Corps command report and

17     I very briefly it's a regular combat report, the first page we see a

18     reference, the enemy in the former Srebrenica enclave is in total

19     disarray.  One group, 200 to 300 enemy soldiers managed to cross over

20     into the Udrc section or sector.  And we see this is under the commander

21     Major General Krstic.  Is this 200 to 300 correct or is this what you've

22     been referring to as bad intel?

23        A.   Yes, sir.  As intervening days go on or actually in this

24     particular case, as the day of the 13th and through the 14th go on, it

25     becomes clear that the number of soldiers who got across the road or at

Page 16309

 1     least the VRS estimates of the numbers of soldiers is greatly off and

 2     that, in fact, the number does not number in the hundreds, several

 3     thousand managed to make it over the road.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Let's go to P1290.

 5        Q.   This is an intercept and this should be confidential.  And

 6     participants Badem, remind us what Badem is the code name for?

 7        A.   Yes, sir, Badem is the telephonic code name for the Bratunac

 8     Light Infantry Brigade headquarters.

 9        Q.   Deronjic, who do you think Deronjic is, very briefly?

10        A.   Miroslav Deronjic is -- at this point in time he's been appointed

11     the civilian commissioner for Srebrenica municipality.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. McCloskey, do we have the document on the

13     screen already?  Are you on 290?

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We don't, Your Honour, I -- 1290.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  There is a kind of technical problem.  It's still

16     loading somehow.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Your Honour, for that.  I'll try to

18     keep my eye on that.  And we can use the -- we can revive ELMO, if he's

19     still alive.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's wait for a second to do that.  Until we know

21     more about what to expect.

22             Perhaps we should revive ELMO for an exceptionally -- because the

23     nature of the problem is uncertain, as is the time it will take to be

24     resolved.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let me -- perhaps I could ask Mr. Butler to give

Page 16310

 1     up his copies because mine have a -- some highlighting and other items on

 2     it.

 3             But I don't mind if Mr. Ivetic has my secret highlightings.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I actually have it up in e-court, I thought.  I was

 5     able to get it on mine.  If it's 00912585 is the ERN?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  I'm fine.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I think e-court is functioning privately but

 9     not -- I am working on e-court at the moment as well and it functions for

10     me also.  But -- could it be put on the ELMO, Mr. Usher?

11             I think we can see it now, isn't it?  We can continue,

12     Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Butler, just go back into time and if you can see this, we

15     see that it's an intercept, you've mentioned who -- I believe you've

16     mentioned who Deronjic is.  We see it mentions Karadzic's intermediary

17     and then in parentheses the intercept operators has written down the

18     intermediary and Karadzic are sitting in the same room.  This is at

19     2010 hours.  Do you know the date of this intercept from your review of

20     all the materials?

21        A.   Yes, sir, this would be 13 July 1995.

22        Q.   Okay.  And we see a discussion where Badem says:  "Hello, I have

23     Deronjic on the line."

24             And then Badem, the person from the -- which would be the person

25     from the Bratunac Brigade, correct?

Page 16311

 1        A.   Yes, sir.

 2        Q.   Says:  "Deronjic, speak up."

 3             Deronjic says:  "Hello, yes, I can hear you."

 4             Then Badem says:  "Deronjic, the president is asking how many

 5     thousands."

 6             Deronjic says:  "About 2 for the time being."

 7             What do you think Deronjic is referring to in this?

 8        A.   I believe that Miroslav Deronjic is referring to the number of

 9     prisoners that by his calculation are being stored in facilities in and

10     around the town of Bratunac on the evening of 13 July 1995.

11        Q.   All right.  And Badem then says:  "2, Mr. President."

12             Deronjic says:  "But there will be more during the night."

13             What do you take that to mean?  That there will be more during

14     the night?

15        A.   Yes, sir, Mr. Deronjic is aware --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a practical problem on the Defence

17     side.  Mr. Lukic, in order to follow the ELMO, the other button has to be

18     pushed.  For me it's the right, top button out of six.  The problem then

19     is that we only see the English.  Mr. McCloskey, that requires that at

20     least everything relevant or if you have an original then perhaps it

21     could be provided to the Defence.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I do.  Ignore the highlighting.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, it's your highlighting.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. Butler has unhighlighted versions and so he

25     can provide that.

Page 16312

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Butler, if you have an original, then, yes, I do

 2     understand we can't have them both on the screen.  If you would give your

 3     copy on a temporary basis to the Defence, then they could give it to

 4     Mr. Mladic.  Yes.  We work on the basis of the English but the B/C/S

 5     version is by courtesy of Mr. Butler available to Mr. Mladic.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 7        Q.   Where we left off was right there in the middle of the English.

 8     When Deronjic says:  "But there'll be more during the night."

 9             Based on your analysis of all the evidence, what do you think

10     that's a reference to?

11        A.   Mr. Deronjic is aware that even at that time, on 13 July 1995,

12     the various military and Special Police units that are along the road

13     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje-Nova Kasaba, are still capturing prisoners as

14     well as moving hundreds more from these locations for the evening to

15     other locations closer to Bratunac where they could be more securely

16     guarded.

17        Q.   All right.  Then Deronjic says:  "Do you want me to come down

18     there to Cerska where are you calling from?"

19             Can you make any sense out of that?

20        A.   Obviously, Cerska is a region in Eastern Bosnia.  He's not

21     physically present there.  I believe that the investigation has

22     determined that Cerska was the telephonic code name used for

23     President Mladic's office or at least the facility he was talking to at

24     this point in time.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Talking about code names, is there any dispute about

Page 16313

 1     that, Mr. Ivetic?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  There is dispute, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And if I may just.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be -- let's try to remain organised.

 6     Apparently Mr. Mladic is seeking to consult with Mr. Ivetic.  Mr. Ivetic,

 7     your client apparently seeks to consult with you.  I don't know

 8     whether --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  If I may, Your Honour, that might assist.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

12             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I'm drawn -- my attention is drawn to

13     the fact that the witness stated President Mladic and that this was

14     President Mladic so I believe he might be talking about someone else.

15     I'm told that Cerska was never the call sign for General Mladic's office

16     nor was he ever in Cerska.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's the position of the Defence.  I do

18     understand.

19             THE WITNESS:  Sir, if I said President Mladic, obviously I mean

20     President Karadzic, a sure sign that I've not had enough coffee yet this

21     morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so it was -- you referred to President Karadzic

23     and not to General Mladic.

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  Please proceed.

Page 16314

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  On that issue the investigation cannot currently

 2     confirm Cerska, so just to update us on that.  That -- I should say as a

 3     code name of some sort.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I was waiting for because Cerska as

 5     an area I take it is confirmed.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

 7        Q.   And we see that Deronjic says:  "Can you hear me, Mr. President?"

 8     "The president can't hear you, Deronjic."  This is the intermediary.

 9     Deronjic says:  "I have about 2.000 here by now."  Then a teleprinter

10     drowns him out apparently.  And then X says:  "Deronjic, the president

11     says all the goods must be placed inside the warehouses before 12

12     tomorrow."  Then Deronjic says:  "Right."  And X says:  "Deronjic, not in

13     warehouses but somewhere else."  Couldn't make out what was right in

14     there.

15             Mr. Butler, what do you think X is referring to when he says --

16     the president says in quotes:  "All the goods must be placed inside the

17     warehouses before 12 tomorrow"?

18        A.   He is talking about the prisoners, sir.

19        Q.   And that last, second-to-last line, "not in the warehouses but

20     somewhere else," what, if anything, can you make of that vague reference?

21        A.   Yes, sir.  In context, one obviously must remember that there is

22     still a considerable international presence in Bratunac on 12 and

23     13 July, between not only UNPROFOR forces but there is also members of

24     MSF and other elements of the international community who have been

25     lobbying very hard over the past several days to be able to gain access

Page 16315

 1     to the refugees and to individuals following the fall of Srebrenica in

 2     order to deliver humanitarian supplies and things of that nature.  So

 3     clearly, there is concern here that they don't want these people in

 4     locations where they might be viewed by members of the international

 5     community transiting through Bratunac.  So the idea of getting them out

 6     of Bratunac as quickly as possible is something that we see occurring

 7     starting on the evening of the 13th, going on through the 14th, 15th and

 8     16th.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  E-court is functioning again, so therefore we don't

10     need the ELMO any further, and could the copy which was given to the

11     Defence be returned to Mr. Butler.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And just to be clear, Mr. Butler, that analysis, was that based

14     solely on these words on this intercept or are you basing it on other

15     knowledge from the investigation?

16        A.   No, sir.  Again, when I offer a conclusion of this nature, I have

17     to do so understanding the broader context of what is happening at the

18     time in order to -- for it to make sense.

19        Q.   And where did the investigation reveal Muslims were taken that

20     night of the 13th of July?

21        A.   Starting the evening of the 13th of July, 1995, what the

22     investigation has revealed is that the first bus convoys of Bosnian

23     Muslim men who had been separated at Potocari and who were in the hangar

24     facility in Bratunac were transported under escort to the school in

25     Orahovac in the Zvornik Brigade zone.

Page 16316

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now, let's go to a document we have marked as

 3     65 ter 04205.  And this is portions of the Bratunac military police log

 4     which I know we have seen before, but I would like to go to page 12 in

 5     the English and page 15 in the Serbian.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  E-court broke down again.  Therefore, if you have a

 7     hard copy, we could still use the ELMO.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  We had both that and Mr. Butler has, and I

 9     have -- I actually have unmarked copies of the Serbian.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would provide the unmarked copies, if you

11     would give them to the usher, the usher may then give them to the

12     Defence.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I just need the B/C/S.  I have the English, so --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that's B/C/S also.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and we have two B/C/Ss, if -- two Serbians,

16     if need be for the general and his -- and Mr. Ivetic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then could it be provided to the Defence.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we use the ELMO again.

20             THE WITNESS:  What page, Mr. McCloskey?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Page 12 in the English and this is 11 July, for the Serbian.  And

23     we just -- I just wanted to ask you, we do see a reference that the MP

24     squad secured the Spat-Pribicevac road for passes for General Mladic and

25     others.  This is on the 11th.  Do you relate this to what you testified

Page 16317

 1     previously?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.

 3        Q.   And tell us where?

 4        A.   Again, with respect to the location of General Mladic in and

 5     around the Bratunac-Srebrenica area on these corresponding dates.

 6        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next page, it's page 13 in the

 7     English.  It's July 12th and 13th in the Serbian.  Mr. Butler used to

 8     operate the ELMO so I think he knows how to do that.

 9        A.   Back in the days when dinosaurs ruled the planet.

10        Q.   Now, if looking at this reference to 12th and 13th of July, it

11     says the police were engaged in securing UNHCR.  Is that correct?

12        A.   That is correct.

13        Q.   Are you sure that's not supposed to be something else?

14        A.   I'm sorry, no, you're correct.  In this particular context, what

15     they're -- what the military police in Bratunac are doing is securing

16     UNPROFOR.

17        Q.   And, all right.  And we can see the rest of what it says.  And

18     it's night duty at Fontana and the UNHCR school securing the commander

19     Ratko Mladic.  What do you take that securing Mladic to mean at the

20     Hotel Fontana?

21        A.   Just essentially what it reflects is the fact that obviously the

22     general of the army is a high-value target for the enemy, and that he is

23     somebody who would require additional security in order to ensure his

24     personal protection.

25        Q.   Does this give you an indication of where he may have spent the

Page 16318

 1     night?

 2        A.   Yes, sir.  I believe this, and there are other records available,

 3     that shows that he spent the night at -- in Bratunac, the evening of 12th

 4     and 13th July, 1995.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's jump ahead of our chronology a bit and go to

 6     the next page, on the 14th of July.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Although e-court is functioning again, the system

 8     seems not to be stable at this moment so therefore, if -- for the time

 9     being could -- continue as we do now and then perhaps after the break,

10     everything will be better.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

12        Q.   Mr. Butler, if you could put 14 -- it should be page 14 in the

13     English and it's the 14th, 15th of July listing in the Serbian.

14             The police was engaged in the escort of Muslim refugees.  Now,

15     this is the 14th and 15th.  Are there any Muslim women and children still

16     left in the Potocari-Bratunac area on the 14th?

17        A.   No, sir.

18        Q.   What in your view is this a reference to, then?

19        A.   In my view, this is a reference to the activities of the Bratunac

20     Brigade military police who were escorting convoys of the military-age

21     men from detention facilities in and around Bratunac to the school

22     locations in the Zvornik Brigade area.

23        Q.   And do you recall the names of the military police commander in

24     Bratunac that was involved in that?

25        A.   It's been a number of years.  I believe if I recall correctly,

Page 16319

 1     the last name of the military police platoon commander was Mr. Jankovic.

 2        Q.   And that is, I take it, different than Radoslav Jankovic of the

 3     Main Staff?

 4        A.   Correct.  They are different individuals.

 5        Q.   All right.  And was -- does the information show who the

 6     commander of the Bratunac Military Police Platoon was working under the

 7     direction of that day in this job?

 8        A.   Well, obviously the platoon or the military police platoon

 9     commander is always under the command of the brigade commander.  However,

10     there is a great deal of information that reflects that he is working in

11     concert with and for Colonel Beara and Colonel Popovic with respect to

12     organising the transportation of individuals from -- or from -- the

13     military-age men from Bratunac to the facilities in Zvornik.

14        Q.   All right.  Let's now jump to the 17th, it should be page 16 in

15     the English and of course it's noted as the 17th in the Serbian.  And

16     it's that second to the last line, I want to call your attention to, it

17     says, one police patrol remained in Pilica to secure and guard the

18     Muslims.

19             What is -- in your belief, is that a reference to and what do you

20     base your opinion on?

21        A.   Yes, sir.  As the investigation has shown, one of the primary

22     detention facilities in the Zvornik Brigade area that was used was the,

23     we call it the school at Kula in the broader Pilica area and obviously

24     the investigation has been able to document that over a thousand

25     individuals were detained at that facility.  This reference, again, this

Page 16320

 1     puts the Bratunac Brigade military police up away from the Bratunac zone

 2     and in fact puts elements of them in the Zvornik Brigade zone dealing

 3     with these individuals.  The only Muslims that are in Pilica are those

 4     that have been brought there by the VRS.

 5        Q.   But on the 17th of July, are you aware of any alive -- any living

 6     Muslim prisoners in Pilica?

 7        A.   No, sir.  At this point, they've all been executed.

 8        Q.   One more date.  Let's go up to the -- should be page 22.  It's

 9     the date of 23/24 July.  I'm not sure you got a copy of that.  It's a

10     relatively new addition.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And it should be page 22 in the English and page

12     25 in the B/C/S on e-court, if that's working.  Yes.  That's it.

13             Not yet there in the Serbian.

14             Got the Serbian, got rid of the English.  Perfect.

15        Q.   This reference:

16             Six Muslims in detention were brought in the course of the day,

17     two more Muslims were brought later but they were sent back because they

18     cut their own throats with a bottle while they were in detention in

19     Skelani.  They lost a lot of blood and they were sent back.

20             Do you recall any reference to anything similar to this from the

21     Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook?  Do you recall this, Mr. Butler?

22        A.   Yes, sir.  Despite the ability of the VRS to apprehend thousands

23     of these individuals, one of the things that has been documented by the

24     investigation has been that there were Bosnian Muslims from Srebrenica

25     who successfully managed to evade capture and, in fact, went to Serbia,

Page 16321

 1     at that point over the Drina River, it was the Federal Republic of

 2     Yugoslavia.  One of the things again noted in the investigation also is

 3     that on occasion, members of the Serbian MUP would turn these people,

 4     once they were captured in the FRY, they would make arrangements and then

 5     give them back to the military police or other authorities of the army of

 6     the Republika Srpska and there are nations of that both within the

 7     Bratunac Brigade military police taking custody of some of them as well

 8     as the Zvornik Brigade taking custody of some of them.

 9        Q.   And do you remember the specific incident about the people that

10     cut their own throats?  If you don't we can go forward.

11        A.   I recall bits and pieces of it, sir, yes.

12        Q.   All right.  Well, we may get to that later.  All right.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I note that the B/C/S is, I believe,

15     200-some pages and the English is 22.  So ...

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This maybe needs some organisation,

17     I acknowledge.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we then reserve a number already so that it is

19     easily spotted in the context of the transcript?

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We'll fix this.  Most of it's already in D30 --

22     D285.  We just added those last two pages, so we will either sort it on

23     to the D exhibit or make -- but we'll work that out.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  At the same time, it's good for the transcript that

25     we know -- we have now the D number and most likely it will then be added

Page 16322

 1     to the D number so that those who are reading the transcript know where

 2     to find it later.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, we'll get that done.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then no need to reserve a number for that.  Please

 5     proceed.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 7        Q.   All right.  Mr. Butler, back to the 13th and some of the more

 8     significant documents, let's go to 65 ter 4118.  And this is a document

 9     that, and the heading is from the command of the 1st Podrinje Light

10     Infantry Brigade known as the Rogatica Brigade.  To the VRS, to

11     General Gvero personally, entitled, "Accommodation of RZs," which is --

12     means prisoners of war.  And it's from General Tolimir.  And we can see

13     that it says:

14             "If you're unable to find adequate accomodation for all the RZs

15     from Srebrenica we hereby inform you that space has been arranged for

16     800 prisoners of war in the 1st PLPBR in Semac [phoen]."

17             There is an unknown word that we have been told meant some kind

18     of military bed in later years.

19             "The 1st PLPBR can guard them with its own forces and would use

20     them for agricultural work, maintaining the horse, pig and sheep farm.

21     If you send them to the sector this must be done at night using 1st PLPBR

22     transport and troops.  It would be best if this is a new group which has

23     not been in contact with the other RZs."

24             Now, you've already told us that General Tolimir was over in the

25     Rogatica area.  Is he still there at the writing of this, in your view?

Page 16323

 1        A.   Yes, sir, he is.

 2        Q.   And we see that it was -- up in the right it's handwritten

 3     submitted 2230 hours.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we have, as you can see, Mr. President, if

 5     you see -- and others, the typewritten original in the Serbian and then

 6     what is on the back is a handwritten draft of the same, is what we have

 7     been always informed.

 8             Both of which you can see on the English page.

 9        Q.   What do you think this is a reference to, what does it tell us

10     about General Tolimir's knowledge of prisoners?

11        A.   Again, having testified against -- about this document

12     previously, the first thing that I --

13        Q.   Mr. Butler, could you just wait for a minute?

14        A.   Sorry.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Please, if you could continue.  I'm sorry for that.  This is an

18     important document.

19        A.   Yes, sir.  Given the time that this document was drafted and

20     sent, the evening of 13 July 1995, it has been my conclusion at this

21     point that not only does General Tolimir at this juncture know that there

22     are thousands of prisoners being taken and that they are being moved from

23     the Bratunac area, he is also aware that the plan is now to kill the

24     prisoners.  The investigation has looked into the facility that

25     General Tolimir has proposed to use and it is determined at the time that

Page 16324

 1     it did not contain horse, pig, sheep or livestock of that nature.  It was

 2     a relatively abandoned facility.  And I also believe that looking at both

 3     the military documents and as well as other investigative activities that

 4     the team has done, the Rogatica Brigade was not equipped or prepared or

 5     did not have the logistical ability to support approximately

 6     800 prisoners of war for a long-term duration.  So that if prisoners were

 7     being sent to that facility, there was no way to take care of them for

 8     very long.

 9        Q.   How do you factor in that this is personally to General Gvero, if

10     you do?

11        A.   Again, at this point in time, I believe that General Gvero was

12     also into the knowledge of what the plan is with respect to executing

13     these individuals.  He's sending it to General Gvero at the Main Staff

14     because that is where he wants this to go.  He could theoretically send

15     it to Bratunac.  He could theoretically send it to Vlasenica.  He knows

16     that General Mladic is moving from location to location, but also as part

17     of the larger plan, he knows that at sometime on the 13th he expects

18     General Mladic to be back at Han Pijesak at the headquarters.

19        Q.   As far as you know, has the investigation revealed any indication

20     that prisoners were actually sent towards Rogatica in this direction?

21        A.   No, sir, they were not.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this into evidence.

24             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

Page 16325

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 04118 receives number P2121,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   And we are at last into 14 July, Mr. Butler.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we see 65 ter 08491.

 7        Q.   This is a document with a heading of the Main Staff of the Army

 8     of Republika Srpska.

 9             And it's from General Mladic, as we see, the Serbian, we see no

10     SR next to it.  And we do see in the English on the second page some

11     indications of received 14 July at 0800 hours.

12             Now, as we look at this - I won't read it - we see that it's a --

13     it's a document to all those listed, and it's talking about the failure

14     of the power supply at Veliki Zep which the Trial Chamber has heard about

15     is a key comms area and just notes that:

16             All information that you have for exchange with the Main Staff of

17     the VRS should be prepared and exchanged during operating hours of the

18     centre.

19             How do you view this document, is this something that

20     General Mladic would have been aware of?  His name is on it?

21        A.   Yes, sir, in the sense that, I mean, clearly this is a routine

22     document.  General Mladic would have been aware of it in a broader sense.

23     Again, going back to my discussion about military officers who are

24     members of the Main Staff who would be issuing orders in General Mladic's

25     name within their competence to do so, the -- an order like this, it's

Page 16326

 1     not necessarily that General Mladic would have hand drafted the order,

 2     but certainly given the gravity of the communications network being down

 3     for a certain period of time, he would have been aware of it and it would

 4     have been an appropriate order to issue under his name.

 5        Q.   All right.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I offer that into evidence.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08491 receives number P2122,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I should also decide that P2122 is admitted.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  Now, if we could go to P01298, which

15     is admitted.

16        Q.   And this is an intercept - this should be confidential - from the

17     14th of July between General Mladic and an unidentified person X.

18     I won't read it all.  We see it's a friendly conversation.  And then

19     General Mladic in the middle of it says -- well, he's asked at the end:

20     "Are you going to be there these days?"

21             And General Mladic says:  "Well, I am after Sunday."

22             And then the person says:  "But not today and tomorrow?"

23             Mladic says:  "I'm busy but I am today, if you can come over."

24             K says:  "You'll be there late in the afternoon?"

25             Mladic says:  "Until 1500 hours and then I'm going to the field.

Page 16327

 1     I'll be busy for two or three days and then I'm coming back."

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, the Defence -- we have spoken

 3     briefly about this, and have agreed that the calendar of 14 July was a

 4     Friday; 15th, Saturday; the 16th is a Sunday.  Just to help in this

 5     intercept.

 6        Q.   Mr. Butler, does this help with identifying General Mladic's

 7     whereabouts when you relate it to other evidence in the case?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   How so?

10        A.   At this juncture, the general is at his headquarters.  Obviously,

11     as both the investigation and the historical record note, at some

12     juncture on 14 July 1995, he travels from there and goes to Belgrade, and

13     this is -- conversation is a reflection of a discussion, I mean,

14     General Mladic does not go to the field.  He does in fact go to Belgrade

15     and he is there the evening of the 14th through the day of the 15th.  I'm

16     not exactly sure at what point on the 16th he returns to the Republika

17     Srpska.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the next document.  This is P363, and

19     Mr. Butler, we are now in a -- taking a brief look at some notes that

20     were retrieved from the Mladic residence well after your time period in

21     the investigation, but have you had a chance to look at those notes that

22     you have been told were taken down by General Mladic?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we just intervene for one second?  I do

24     understand that part of the problems in uploading - I think it's the

25     document you are now asking for again - is that the limit for documents

Page 16328

 1     in e-court is that it should not be bigger than 5 MB, which stands for

 2     megabytes, and the OTP is therefore invited to resize the document and

 3     put it back to e-court.  That is what may have caused the problems but

 4     I see that Ms. Stewart is disagreeing.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry, it's not about the same document.  It was

 8     about P1290 which caused earlier the problems, but it doesn't affect, if

 9     I have understood everything well, the present document.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I think we are back together.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   So, Mr. Butler, as you've just referenced that during your time

14     there was evidence of meetings, and since that time, have you had a

15     chance to look at these short notes of General Mladic's for those days?

16        A.   Yes, sir, I've been able to look at the portion of what

17     I understand to be his notes for the various day periods here.

18        Q.   All right.  And we see at this meeting, it's 14 July, 2115 hours,

19     with President Milosevic and Bildt and General de La Presle.  And there

20     is a note President Milosevic explained the situation around Srebrenica.

21     And then we -- I won't read all that out but we can see that it has to do

22     with the ICRC, UNHCR convoys, about Srebrenica and Zepa.  And then B is

23     about convoys and supplies.

24             Can you remind us who Bildt is, very briefly?

25        A.   He is a member of what is broadly referred to as the Contact

Page 16329

 1     Group, one of a number of political representatives from the

 2     international community seeking to broker a peace agreement to end the

 3     conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   All right.  Let's go -- it should be B/C/S page 3 as well as

 5     English page 3.  And under Bildt's heading, General Mladic has written

 6     down:

 7             To accomplish something over the weekend or we are going to get

 8     ourselves into trouble.

 9             I won't ask you about that.

10             But then it says:

11             Srebrenica, to free the boys, young men who were taken to

12     Bratunac.

13             What in your view is that a reference to, based on your knowledge

14     of what was going on in Bratunac at the time?

15        A.   As I indicated in my previous testimony on what was happening

16     with respect to Bratunac and who was there, the UN, the UNPROFOR forces

17     that were in and around Srebrenica and many of them who were -- had

18     travelled through Bratunac escorting convoys, clearly had an awareness

19     that military-age men had been separated and were being held in and

20     around the areas of Bratunac.  One assumes at this juncture that the UN

21     people in reporting these developments back to their higher headquarters,

22     that at some juncture word of this got to and Mr. Bildt was made aware of

23     this fact.  The fact that General Mladic would have written this notation

24     down in his notebook leads me to infer that it was an issue of discussion

25     and that there was an awareness between Mr. Bildt and General Mladic that

Page 16330

 1     there were men who had been taken to Bratunac from Srebrenica.

 2        Q.   So do you find, as a military person, General Mladic's presence

 3     and work that he's clearly doing at this meeting, do you find that to be

 4     in any way an exercise of command?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.  He's commander of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 6     Everything that he does or everything that he does not do as the

 7     commander is an exercise of command.

 8        Q.   Well, if he's at a wedding enjoying himself, that wouldn't be an

 9     exercise of command, would it?

10        A.   There obviously will be certain select circumstances where his

11     presence at a personal event or his presence -- or even, for example, as

12     a result of injury or illness he is not able to exercise command, and

13     under the normal military procedure, if he cannot exercise command,

14     arrangements are made for his deputy to assume command.  In this

15     particular context, where he's meeting with the president of a separate

16     country, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and is meeting with members

17     of the international community, and other military officers, his military

18     assistant, I don't think one could categorise this particular meeting as

19     a personal or social visit.

20        Q.   What is it?  Briefly, in military terms, if anything?

21        A.   Again, sir, looking at the larger context of what was occurring

22     politically at the time - and I may not be the best witness to testify

23     related to this - the Contact Group was very actively involved in seeking

24     an end to the war in the former Yugoslavia, and one of their strategies

25     was to meet directly with President Mladic -- I'm sorry, with

Page 16331

 1     General Mladic, excluding President Karadzic from those discussions

 2     because at that time they believed that General Mladic was the more

 3     reasonable party and they were hoping that General Mladic could be made

 4     to accept ideas with respect to a way to successfully conclude the

 5     conflict.  So these meetings, while they did not occur presumably with

 6     the knowledge of President Karadzic, would certainly fall within his

 7     competence as the commander of the Army of the Republika Srpska to

 8     represent his army interests.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe it's break time.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.

11             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile I take the opportunity, Mr. McCloskey, you

14     have shown to the witness P1558, that was about clearing the roads,

15     partly being order, et cetera.  And then you showed -- next you showed to

16     him another document which is now admitted as P2120 and when I looked at

17     it, it seemed to be quite familiar.  Now, it is a different version

18     although literally the same text as P1559, different stamps, different

19     printing, but from the text exactly the same.  That is the document where

20     the Main Staff of the army, through Mr. Mladic, his name is at the

21     bottom, reiterates more or less the cutting off the roads, et cetera.  So

22     just to assist everyone, that's P2120 and P1559 are similar in content.

23             We take a break and we'll resume at quarter past 12.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

Page 16332

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Butler, I want to stay on this one page briefly.  We see that

 6     the -- that General Mladic appears to have written:

 7             Liberation of Dutch soldiers, to free at least 48 or 86 Dutch

 8     soldiers who are with us.

 9             And I think you referred to that previously, those are the Dutch

10     soldiers being held in and around Bratunac at the time?

11        A.   Yes, sir, that is correct.

12        Q.   And do you recall with -- General Smith was at the meeting on the

13     14th or did he come after?

14        A.   I understand that General Smith's meetings with General Mladic

15     were on the 15th, not the 14th.

16        Q.   All right.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to the next document, 65 ter 5791.

18        Q.   This is a -- one of those teletypes we can see with the Main

19     Staff, the Army of Republika Srpska.  It's to the Drina Corps, to the

20     commander personally, the 1st Bratunac Brigade, for your information.

21     And it's in the name of General Mladic with SR.  And it says:

22             "Pursuant to a request by the commander of the Dutch Battalion

23     and in order to organise and facilitate an honourable sendoff for a group

24     of about 50 members of the Dutch Battalion from Bratunac to Ljubovija,

25     I hereby," and then we see it talks about enabling Dutch Battalion, about

Page 16333

 1     50, who spent the last days in Bratunac to leave Bratunac.  And take some

 2     of them personal stuff with them.

 3             Do you relate that at all to what we just read in Mladic's notes?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.  And again, the fact that, you know, going back to your

 5     previous question, whether or not General Mladic is still exercising the

 6     facets of command as the leader of the VRS, at this meeting and

 7     subsequent to it, this again shows that he's not operating obviously in a

 8     personal capacity.  He's operating in his capacity as the

 9     Commander-in-Chief, I'm sorry, as the commander of the Main Staff of the

10     army of the Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   So when his notes say, "liberation of Dutch soldiers," and then

12     to free at least 48 or 86 Dutch soldiers, this document basically is

13     doing that, isn't it?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   And this, we see that its headline is the Main Staff.  If

16     General Mladic is in Belgrade at the time, is there anything unusual

17     about a document going out with SR at the bottom in his name, with the

18     titles from the Main Staff or -- that we see here.  Doesn't actually say

19     from the Main Staff but we know what that means, this Main Staff header

20     up in the left side.

21        A.   Again, sir, in this context, I could -- I could speculate a

22     number of ways by which the order of General Mladic made it from Belgrade

23     to the Main Staff.  Suffice to say, the fact is that General Mladic's

24     order with respect to what would be done did make it to the Main Staff,

25     and was sent out from the Main Staff to the Drina Corps and the

Page 16334

 1     Bratunac Brigade as it was his order.

 2        Q.   And we see a little handwritten note up in the right-hand corner,

 3     it says:

 4             Follow up on implementation of this order.

 5             And then someone initialled it.  And this was obtained from the

 6     Drina Corps collection.

 7             What does that indicate to you, if anything?

 8        A.   Again, it's addressed to the Drina Corps command, commander

 9     personally, and it notes the fact that they are following up on this

10     order.  I mean obviously the people who received this order are taking it

11     exactly as what it is.  It's a lawfully issued order by their superior.

12        Q.   All right.  And did you -- have you been able to follow up to see

13     if this actually happened?  Did -- on the 15th, is there any indication

14     that Dutch soldiers went out on the 15th?

15        A.   I think over the course of several days later, I don't -- I'm not

16     sure if it starts as early as the 15th, it may, but certainly over the

17     course of the coming days Dutch soldiers begin to be released and sent

18     into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

19        Q.   All right.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, we would object based upon the

22     notation "SR" meaning "by his own hand," as this document could not have

23     been authored by General Mladic subsequent to the meeting as is being

24     indicated in his own hand, that is to say, personally writing out.  It's

25     logically not congruent.

Page 16335

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it to say that this is a forgery, that this is

 2     not an authentic document, not received by those who signed for reception

 3     and not having been in the hands of those who made notes on it?  Or is it

 4     that you say that there is something wrong in the --

 5             MR. IVETIC:  It could can be either.  At this stage we don't

 6     know.  We're just making an objection based upon that to the admission of

 7     the document, pending our further investigation.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I may reply to that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You may but if you give us one second,

10     Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, of course.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, if you would respond to the objection

14     to admission, and if you also could inform the Chamber where the document

15     was found, as we have it here.  And Mr. Mladic is -- can consult but

16     should do it inaudible.

17             Mr. McCloskey?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  That -- this appeared to me

19     to be an argument more of a weight to the document as to the

20     admissibility, but of course, Your Honours would like, and expect, as you

21     should, some form of foundation for it, and as you know, there are so

22     many documents we have not individually done that or we would still be

23     here.  This, in my understanding, is what we got from the Drina Corps

24     collection, which you've heard about before.  In other cases we have

25     taken the time to have Tomas Blaszczyk talk about that in detail, where

Page 16336

 1     it came from.  It's a rather unique situation.  And we have not done that

 2     yet, though Mr. Blaszczyk is always on stand-by ready to respond to any

 3     legitimate Defence concerns about that, and we can do that.  We'll need

 4     more time, of course, but I can tell you as an officer of the court it's

 5     the Drina Corps collection and it's been used and testified about many,

 6     many times now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you assist me, that's the archives of the

 8     Drina Corps which contained this document, where it comes from?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and just to give you the heads-up on that,

10     that was a collection that was found in Serbia at a military base, and

11     the RS police notified us of its location and they were able to arrange

12     bringing it to Bosnia where they provided it, the RS police provided us

13     boxes of original documents to a British base, and that's the subject

14     matter of Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony.  And many, many documents that we

15     have introduced here that you see originals of come from that collection

16     and he can testify about that, about how valuable or -- not how valuable

17     but does this -- how credible it is, how credible a collection it is

18     based on our review with other documents from other collections.  And

19     it's been quite a bit of work in that area, though we -- it's used so

20     much by the Defence as much as it is us, the collection itself is not

21     usually challenged, though we can, of course, understand why an

22     individual document may get challenged.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Anything to add, Mr. Ivetic?

24             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, only that we have objected to the

25     Drina Corps collection as a whole.  That does not mean that certain

Page 16337

 1     documents from the collection might not be authentic.  But as a whole,

 2     given the fact that it was -- the manner which it was collected and there

 3     is other details there in terms of whether it remained in the custody of

 4     the officials the entire time I know were discussed in other hearings and

 5     I had prepared to cross-examine Mr. Blaszczyk when he originally was

 6     scheduled to testify, thinking that that was the subject matter that he

 7     was going to testify about.  So we would maintain our objection to this

 8     document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you again assist me?  You said you objected to

10     the Drina Corps collection as a whole.

11             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.  That's between counsel and I when

12     we --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.

14             MR. IVETIC:  It's not in the -- not before the Court.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber considered the arguments by the parties.

18     The objection is denied.  The document is admitted.

19             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05791 receives number P2123,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P2123 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 5419.

24        Q.   The very similar-looking document, same date, under the name of

25     General Mladic SR.  And this one we see it's to the Sarajevo-Romanija

Page 16338

 1     Corps and the Drina Corps, to the commanders, and it's ordering, making

 2     orders, we can see, to ensure the General Smith team is able to travel on

 3     15 July.  We can see that that's through Bosnia and further to Belgrade.

 4     And gives the details of when it's happening and making sure he has

 5     escorts.

 6             And, Mr. Butler, do you view this document as an exercise of

 7     command by General Mladic?

 8        A.   Yes, sir.

 9        Q.   And do we see indications of General Smith actually making it to

10     the meeting in Belgrade on the 15th?

11        A.   Yes, sir.

12        Q.   So in your view, was this order carried out?

13        A.   Yes, sir, it was.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I offer it into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, same objection?

16             MR. IVETIC:  I'm told we have the same objection to this

17     document, Your Honours, as with the previous document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And nothing further to add, just --

19             MR. IVETIC:  Nothing further to add, that's correct.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I believe we have the originals,

21     if that makes a difference.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't hear that Mr. Ivetic is concerned about the

23     originals not being there, so that's -- the objection is denied,

24     similarly to the denial of the previous one.

25             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

Page 16339

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 05419 receives number P2124,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P2124 is admitted.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  And if we can now go back to P363, page 4

 5     in both languages, back to the -- General Mladic's notebook.

 6        Q.   This, as you'll see, is noted as the 15th of July, 1995, the

 7     meeting with the UN and Milosevic, as he notes in his own hand.  And as

 8     we get there, we'll see that he notes down people as Stoltenberg, Akashi,

 9     Bildt, de La Presle, General Smith.

10             So, Mr. Butler, we now see Smith there?

11        A.   Correct, sir.

12        Q.   Is that the same Smith that was the subject of the last order

13     that we saw by General Mladic?

14        A.   I'm not aware of another General Smith who would hold that

15     position or be meeting with General Mladic.  I take it that it is.

16        Q.   All right.  And under the note, "de La Presle," we see:

17             "Liberation of 48 Dutch men is taken care of."

18             Is that related in any way to the order about Dutch men that we

19     just saw, in your view?

20        A.   Yes, sir, I believe it is.

21        Q.   Okay.  Going to the next page in English, we see notes about the

22     ICRC wanting to meet with the prisoners, UNHCR reference.  And

23     General Smith says -- tells General Mladic that he will use force when

24     the UN forces come under attack.  And he notes that General Smith tells

25     him there are rumours of atrocities.

Page 16340

 1             In your view, is General Mladic exercising and in command and

 2     acting as the commander of the VRS Main Staff at this time when he's

 3     taking these notes and engaged in this meeting?

 4        A.   Yes, sir.

 5        Q.   All right.  Let's now get to 15 July, 65 ter 1927.  We have

 6     another order in General Mladic's name, with an SR.  It's to the command

 7     of the East Bosnia Corps and the IKM of the Main Staff, for information.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Can we have the number?

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  65 ter 1927.

10        Q.   We see that he apparently is sending a comms sergeant to

11     General Milovanovic over in the Krajina.  Is -- and it's got "SR" on it.

12     Is -- in your view does this indicate he is exercising command at this

13     time?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Offer this into evidence.

16             MR. IVETIC:  We would again object based upon the date; the

17     location of the General - as agreed by the parties - on the 15th; and the

18     fact that the document purports that it was written by his own hand,

19     which it could not have been done from that location.  And so we would

20     object to the -- to the authenticity of this document as one being

21     authored by General Mladic personally.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the document, the authenticity of the

23     document, is not the same issue as whether he signed the -- originally.

24     It may be that someone made a mistake or that someone put an untruth --

25     an untrue statement in a document, but that is not about authenticity,

Page 16341

 1     even if there is an agreement about the whereabouts of Mr. Mladic at that

 2     date.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I understand that, Your Honour.  And I believe that

 4     this document also comes from the Drina Corps collection - counsel can

 5     correct me if I'm wrong - and we have questions about the manner in which

 6     that was maintained, so for someone to have perhaps fabricated the

 7     document is not beyond the realm of possibility.  We are investigating

 8     this, and at this time we have to object to the document based upon our

 9     concerns that are raised as to whether this document was actually issued.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The objection is denied as well.  Perhaps no

11     need to say, Mr. Ivetic, that if your further investigations reveal

12     anything which is relevant and which might cause the Chamber to

13     reconsider its decision on admission, then of course we would like to

14     hear.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Of course, Your Honour, that's understood.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Mr. McCloskey, the document is admitted into evidence.

18             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 01927 receives number P2125,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P2125 is admitted into evidence.

22             And you may proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And, Mr. Butler, I thought you had dealt with this, but I may be

25     mistaken.  Is it in a military --

Page 16342

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Mr. Mladic lower the volume of his voice in

 2     such a way that if there is any need to consult that it doesn't interrupt

 3     the examination of the witness.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Can an order such as this be drafted upon the oral orders of

 7     General Mladic, where he orders that "SR" be put next to the type-set

 8     name so people understand he is personally involved with it?  I thought

 9     you had testified about that already, whether the person had signed it or

10     not?

11        A.   Well, yes, sir.  It wouldn't -- if it comes to pass that this was

12     an oral order initially passed over the phone and the individual at the

13     Main Staff who typed up this order, he's receiving the order directly

14     from General Mladic in that sense, that it wouldn't surprise me to find

15     that he would put "SR" because he had received the order directly from

16     General Mladic.  These -- none of these represent anything that I view as

17     an abnormal command or staff process.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask, Mr. Butler, when a

19     document -- we have seen documents here which say "Mr. Mladic" and there

20     is no "SR" next to the name but there is also no signature, how do --

21     that we see on the documents that are here - and I understand that

22     currently there are originals elsewhere - are you able to comment on the

23     difference between one such document where there is no "SR" but there is

24     no signature and one where there is an "SR" and there is no signature?

25     What is the difference?

Page 16343

 1             THE WITNESS:  Certainly, as evidenced with the documents that

 2     are -- that have been sent through various radio digital transmission

 3     means, you're not going to get a physical signature on the document.

 4     There are occasions that I have seen copies of documents where an

 5     original version may be signed but copies of that document are not

 6     signed, sometimes simply for lack of carbon paper or an obvious lack of a

 7     Xerox machine to make multiple copies.  Again, when I look at these

 8     particular documents, I look at them in the broader context of the

 9     professional military command and staff processes, and that individuals

10     who are, by their profession and by their position on the Main Staff, are

11     accorded certain authorities to issue orders, sometimes in the name of

12     the commander, if they are in a certain competence that has been

13     previously defined, and that much of my analysis of the military

14     documents comes from --

15                           [Alarm sounding]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We will later find out whether it's a drill or

17     whether it's serious.  We leave the courtroom.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.46 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of

20                           September, 2013, at 9.30 p.m.