130906IT

Page 16349

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And yes, if we -- and if we will recall,

2 Mr. Butler, when the alarm went off, was right in the middle of

3 responding to Judge Moloto's questions and if I can just help reiterate

4 it.

5 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]

6 Q. It was -- basically we had seen a document which is 65 ter 1927.

7 I believe it was on our screen and this was the Mladic order ordering a

8 communications person to go to General Milovanovic in the Krajina, and it

9 had an SR next to it, and not --

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document is now P2125.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

12 Q. And a few documents before that, we had P2122, which was a very

13 similar document, where General Mladic had announced the power failure at

14 Veliki Zep, and that document in General Mladic's name, did not have an

15 SR on it. So I think the guts of the question was: Do you have an

16 explanation for why we see one document regarding a comms person to

17 Milovanovic with an SR on it and we have another comms outage document

18 without an SR on it?

19 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just correct that, my question. My

20 question was not to ask for an explanation why we do have that. My

21 question was: Do you know what the difference is between those two types

22 of situations? And can you tell us what it is, if you do?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. And good morning.

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Good morning.

25 THE WITNESS: Obviously, as both the Prosecution and Defence have

Page 16350

1 noted, there is a technical difference between a document that has an SR

2 and one that does not. My view is that, functionally, there is no

3 particular difference within the context of the fact that how these

4 orders would be taken by subordinate commands. Again, as I believe I was

5 discussing yesterday before the alarm went off, the VRS is a -- or at

6 least certainly at the staff level is a professionally trained army with

7 well-educated and competent officers who knew the limits of their

8 authorities. So when one looks at orders like this, that are received

9 with a signature block of General Mladic on them, or any other authorised

10 superior, how they follow those orders is not going to matter whether

11 there is an SR and that General Mladic has personally signed this order

12 or it goes off under his signature block. It will be treated in the

13 exact same way as it is militarily proper to do so.

14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thank you very much for that answer and I do

15 understand what you are saying. I guess what I really do want to find

16 out is notwithstanding the fact that subordinate organs would follow the

17 order irrespective of whether it's got an SR or not, do you by any chance

18 know procedurally within the Main Staff what the meaning or what the

19 difference in meaning between the document with an SR is as against a

20 document without an SR?

21 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't -- I'm sure some individuals may

22 have testified in that regard. I do not know how the Main Staff itself

23 would have qualified that, for example, whether if General Mladic relayed

24 it telephonically that would still qualify for an SR designation versus

25 whether or not the order was actually hand drafted by him or whether or

Page 16351

1 not he simply personally signed it.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 Q. On that same topic, Mr. Butler, let me read to you something to

5 see if it -- your response to it. It comes from the Tolimir transcript,

6 page 110511, and I'm asking General Keserovic -- remind us who Keserovic

7 is?

8 A. At the time of July 1995, he is Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic who

9 is a security officer on the Main Staff of the Army of the

10 Republika Srpska.

11 Q. And I put up a document signed by General Mladic and I ask:

12 "Well, seeing how the document is not signed by General Mladic,

13 the one on the screen, it must have also been sent somehow via teletype.

14 I don't -- I can't think of any other" -- sorry, this is an answer.

15 "... I can't think of any other reason why it wouldn't be signed."

16 "Q. Okay. Down in the left corner of this original document we

17 can see next to Ratko Mladic's name, 'S.R.' Tell us what that means."

18 And the answer of Keserovic is:

19 "When a document is submitted to signalsmen to be sent by

20 teletype or other communication, during the handover, because the

21 signature cannot be conveyed by teletype, these letters, 'S.R.,' meaning

22 'in his own hand,' are inserted to indicate that the original document

23 was signed by General Mladic."

24 How does that fit your understanding?

25 A. Yes, sir, I mean that is consistent. I would add, for example,

Page 16352

1 for the Court to note, that many of the documents, I mean we will see

2 them actually as documents that are handwritten, but as you will recall

3 from some of the earlier Bratunac documents, military orders might very

4 well be written out long hand in certain cases and then relayed for

5 typing and publication later down the line. The fact that an officer may

6 have handwritten a document like that and signed it, when that order is

7 typed, he's not available to do that, it may very well also get the SR

8 designation reflecting it is in the commander's hand. So again,

9 obviously without seeing a physical signature on a document, I cannot say

10 whether or not he actually signed that document but there are a variety

11 of methods obviously that the personal nature of the order, from a

12 superior to a subordinate, can be relayed.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to P1309. We are on the

14 14th of July in our chronology. This is an intercept where the date of

15 the intercept is noted in P01311 but let's stick with P1309, which was on

16 our exhibit list for this witness.

17 Q. And we will see that this is at 2102 hours, between the Palma

18 duty officer Major Jokic and Badem. Can you remind us what Palma and

19 Badem are?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it true that we dealt with that,

21 Mr. McCloskey, and that we even asked whether there was any dispute about

22 it? And there was no dispute about it? And it's even adjudicated facts,

23 if I remember well. I don't remember whether there was any objection to

24 that adjudicated fact but let's try to keep things as succinct as

25 possible.

Page 16353

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I merely do it to remind you of

2 who these people are. I forget these things easily. If you know who

3 they are and there is no problem, I won't, but I just want to make sure

4 you remember.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we do. Otherwise we will ask for it, if we

6 have problems, and sometimes we look it up because I know that Palma was

7 dealt with.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, you're absolutely right. We just dealt with

9 this.

10 Q. All right, Mr. Butler, so we see that this is between Badem and

11 Palma duty officer Major Jokic, and who is Major Jokic?

12 A. Major Jokic by position is the chief of engineering services for

13 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade in July of 1995.

14 Q. And we see, and I won't read it all but we see here that

15 Major Jokic is calling Bratunac to look for -- looking for Beara and

16 notes in that first part on the fourth line in the English, the higher

17 house urgently needs him and then as we go down we see that he actually

18 speaks to Colonel Beara and is telling him that 155 had called him and he

19 needs to call them back.

20 Can you tell us, in your view, what the higher house means and

21 what 155 is?

22 A. Yes, sir. In this context, the higher house is the Main Staff,

23 and telephone number 155 is actually the extension to the office of the

24 chief of operations of the Main Staff.

25 Q. All right.

Page 16354

1 A. Or the operations centre, I should say, of the Main Staff.

2 Q. Okay. And almost two-thirds down the page, Jokic says:

3 "Yes, hey, we have huge problems over here" --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Are we still on the right page in B/C/S?

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, it's B/C/S page 2. Thank you. I had

6 that in my note. I just missed it.

7 Q. And Jokic, after saying "we have huge problems over here," then

8 says:

9 "There are big problems, well, with the people, I mean the

10 parcel."

11 What do you believe that means? The problems, first of all, and

12 then this reference to parcel and people?

13 A. Well, sir, in this context, there could only be two groups of

14 people that the Zvornik Brigade is dealing with at the time. One

15 particular group obviously at this point of time on 14 July is the column

16 of individuals that is transversing now through the rear area of the

17 Zvornik Brigade. The other group of people is the prisoners that are

18 being held in schools in various locations, given the fact that at first

19 the individual corresponding is Colonel Beara and there is another

20 reference to Drago, who I believe is Drago Nikolic, the chief of security

21 of the Zvornik Brigade. I take it in this context that they are

22 discussing the issue of the prisoners.

23 Q. And are you aware from the documents or materials any problems

24 with prisoners in the Zvornik area on the evening of 14 July?

25 A. Problems in the sense that there are prisoners in -- I mean, one

Page 16355

1 there are prisoners in various locations already, and temporally, by this

2 time at 2100 hours, on 14 July 1995, they are still -- the engineers are

3 still working to bury the individuals who were killed at Orahovac and,

4 several hours in the future, the executions will begin of those prisoners

5 that are being held at the school in Petkovci. Because of the security

6 situation in and around the zone of the Zvornik Brigade, many of the

7 convoys of prisoners who are going further to the north, for example, to

8 locations such as Rocevic and Pilica, are being stopped and held in

9 temporary locations because the roads are no longer secure. And in fact

10 on this evening, there is witnesses who talk about the fact that two

11 busloads of prisoners are actually stuck and stranded in the headquarters

12 of the Zvornik Brigade compound because it's not safe for them to

13 continue to move at night because of the unclear military situation.

14 Q. Let's now go to 15 July, P1319.

15 And Mr. Butler, this is an intercept that says Colonel Beara was

16 looking for General Zivanovic but he was not there. He said he was to

17 call him at extension 139. Do you know what date this occurred?

18 A. Yes, sir. This is 15 July 1995.

19 Q. Okay. Now we see that. It speaks for itself but do you -- have

20 you identified what extension 139 is?

21 A. Yes, sir. Extension 139 is the phone in the office of

22 Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, the chief of security for the Zvornik

23 Infantry Brigade.

24 Q. How did you determine that?

25 A. As part of not only the records seized in Zvornik but other

Page 16356

1 documents that we have acquired through the years, one of them was a

2 phonebook. Looking at those particular documents, it notes the fact that

3 extension 139 at the Zvornik Brigade is for the chief of security.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Have you then checked whether that number is or at

5 least the person attached to that number is consistent with the content

6 of the telephone conversations? I mean you find in the phonebook a

7 number, it's attached to an office of someone. Now, that can be right or

8 wrong. One of the ways of verifying is to look at the content of the

9 telephone conversations whenever any reference is made to 193, or

10 whatever the number is, and then to verify whether that is consistent or

11 logical with being attached to the person you found in the phonebook.

12 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, sir, and particularly in this context, I

13 believe and I certainly am aware that in other cases or trials, witness

14 testimony has been led that reflects Colonel Beara was at the

15 Zvornik Brigade headquarters during this period, so it would be logical

16 that he would be using the office of the chief of security of the

17 Zvornik Brigade as a focal point where people could reach him

18 telephonically.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY:

21 Q. All right. Let's now go to P1320. This is an intercept on the

22 same day, two minutes later from the last one, at 954 hours. And the

23 participants are General Zivanovic and Colonel Ljubo Beara.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Just to be clear, on all these transcripts of

25 intercepted telephone conversations, Madam Registrar is cautious enough

Page 16357

1 to take care that they will not be broadcast because they are all under

2 seal. Second, they are all MFIed. So just to remind the parties of

3 that. The Chamber still has to decide on the whole -- yes, I think they

4 were conditionally admitted but we will have a closer look at it, but

5 they are not -- it's not just plain evidence as with most of the admitted

6 documents. Just to remind the parties of the status.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much. My reminder is now behind

8 me and so that is very helpful that we just keep all those documents

9 under seal.

10 Q. All right, Mr. Butler, this intercept, we see, a conversation

11 laid out between Zivanovic, the commander of the Drina Corps and

12 Colonel Beara. And as we get down in the English, Beara says:

13 "I informed the commander of this, Furtula did not send Lukic's

14 Intervention Platoon the other day."

15 Can you tell us -- remind us who Furtula is and who you think

16 this Lukic is and his Intervention Platoon?

17 A. Yes, sir. Furtula, Major Furtula is the commander of the

18 Visegrad Light Infantry Brigade. Lukic in this context is one of his

19 platoon or company commanders, an individual that I believe is known as

20 Milan Lukic who is well known for his activities in the Visegrad area in

21 1992.

22 Q. And so just tell us briefly what this -- well, tell us,

23 "I informed the commander of this," when Beara is making that reference,

24 who would that be?

25 A. In the context, Beara's commander would be General Mladic.

Page 16358

1 Q. And as you read the rest of this intercept, just tell us briefly

2 what this is about.

3 A. In short, this is a conversation between Colonel Beara and

4 General Zivanovic where Colonel Beara is essentially requesting

5 General Zivanovic make available resources or to facilitate more quick

6 transfer of these individuals from the Visegrad Brigade in order to

7 follow the orders that were given. General Zivanovic at this time is no

8 longer the corps commander of the Drina Corps having been relieved of his

9 duties of that on 13 July 1995. So what General Zivanovic is saying

10 clearly is that he's no longer authorised to give such instructions and

11 he instructs Colonel Beara to call a certain extension where he can reach

12 the new corps commander.

13 Q. Okay. And so when Beara says, "he simply does not heed what the

14 commanders orders him," again what reference -- who is the commander in

15 that reference?

16 A. Again, in that particular context, we are talking about

17 Colonel Beara noting that the commander of the Visegrad Brigade has

18 failed to follow the orders of General Mladic.

19 Q. All right. And we can read the rest of that. Let's go to the

20 next page in English. And we see that Zivanovic says:

21 "I can no longer decide this."

22 Explain that.

23 A. I believe I did earlier. General Zivanovic is no longer the

24 commander of the Drina Corps. He no longer has the authorisation to be

25 able to make those kind of orders relating to units that are no longer

Page 16359

1 subordinate to him.

2 Q. And as we can see, as we go down, Zivanovic repeatedly mentions

3 385 and then says: "Zlatar and 385." So Zlatar and 385 is what?

4 A. Zlatar is the Drina Corps headquarters. 385 is the phone

5 extension that is reserved for the commander of the Drina Corps.

6 Q. And but on the 15th, where would the commander of the

7 Drina Corps, at this time, as we know, it's General Krstic, where would

8 he be?

9 A. He would be in the field with Drina Corps units that are involved

10 in operations around Zepa.

11 Q. So how does the 385 extension fit, if Krstic is in the field in

12 Zepa?

13 A. Well, again, both from my awareness of the investigation as well

14 as the prior testimony of the Drina Corps chief of communications, he

15 discussed the fact that 385 was the designated number and through

16 switchboards and other communication means, that number followed the

17 commander wherever he was. So all somebody had to do, if you -- no

18 matter where the corps commander was, his phone number was 385, whether

19 he happened to be in Zepa, whether he happened to be back at Vlasenica,

20 it was set up so that it was always possible to reach the commander

21 regardless of where you were calling from.

22 Q. All right. Let's go to the next intercept, 21008A. This is a

23 15 July intercept, just a few minutes after the last one, this one is

24 noted at 1000 hours, and the participants are noted, Colonel Ljubo Beara

25 and General Krstic. Do you relate this intercept in any way to the last

Page 16360

1 one we just heard?

2 A. Yes, sir, it's directly related both in the sense of immediately

3 following in time, as well as related within the context of they are

4 discussing the same matter, this time Colonel Beara is discussing it with

5 General Krstic.

6 Q. All right. And this time we see in the first line, Beara says:

7 "General, Furtula didn't carry out the boss's order."

8 In that context, we now have this term "boss" is used. Who do

9 you believe Beara is referring to when he said "boss's order"?

10 A. I believe he's referring to General Mladic. It would not make

11 sense if the order were given by, say, General Krstic or

12 General Zivanovic, Ljubo Beara would be more appropriately saying, "they

13 didn't follow your order." The fact that he's saying "the boss's order"

14 infers strongly that they are referring about General Mladic. The boss

15 of both Colonel Beara and General Krstic.

16 Q. And then, we see he's still asking for 30 men, as it was ordered,

17 and from this, who ordered the 30 men, in your view? It says:

18 "But I need 30 men, just like it was ordered."

19 A. Yes, sir, again in that context, the person -- you know, it was

20 ordered. There apparently was an order issued by the individual known

21 as -- referred to as the boss for at least a platoon of men for a certain

22 task.

23 Q. And as you read the rest of this and from your knowledge of it,

24 what do you believe the certain task was that Beara was requesting those

25 men pursuant to Mladic's order?

Page 16361

1 A. Reading this particular intercept, as well as the context of

2 other things that were happening, on the ground at that time, this

3 particular task that they are talking about and the men that they needed

4 were those men who would carry out the executions of prisoners in the

5 zone of the Zvornik Brigade.

6 Q. All right. We will get into a bit of the detail to find out how

7 it is that you come to that conclusion. But before we get there I'd like

8 to continue down the intercept. When Krstic says, "Take them from Nastic

9 or Blagojevic," remind us who Nastic is?

10 A. Nastic is the commander of the Milici Light Infantry Brigade.

11 Blagojevic is the commander of the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.

12 Q. And then the next line, Beara says:

13 "But I don't have any here, I need them today, and I'll give them

14 back tonight. Krle, you have to understand, I can't explain it to you

15 like this."

16 What's Krle?

17 A. Krle is a nickname for General Krstic.

18 Q. Okay. And then Krstic says:

19 "I'll disturb everything on his axis if I pull them out and a lot

20 depends on him."

21 What do you believe he's referring to, disturbing his axis?

22 A. Again, in the context of the time when this discussion is

23 occurring, General Krstic is already dealing with the situation at Zepa.

24 He has just released within the past several hours equivalent of two task

25 forces or two light battalions of soldiers from the Zvornik Infantry

Page 16362

1 Brigade from the Zepa battlefield area where they were engaged to return

2 back to Zvornik to deal with the military threat of the column. So at

3 this point he's being expected to continue military operations towards

4 Zepa and he's just lost a significant percentage of the combat forces

5 that he was using to pursue that.

6 Q. How so? Who do he lose?

7 A. He last Colonel Pandurevic and he lost the two battle groups from

8 the Zvornik Brigade that were sent from Zepa back to Zvornik on the

9 morning hours of 15 July 1995. Because of the threat of the column.

10 Q. All right. And then Beara says:

11 "I can't resolve anything without 15 to 30 men, and that Boban

12 Indjic" -- this is the first mention we here of Boban Indjic.

13 Did you determine who he is?

14 A. Yes, sir. Boban Indjic is a subordinate to Milan Lukic and is

15 also somebody who is known notoriously for his activities in Visegrad in

16 1992.

17 Q. And did you find an intercept that made reference, some reference

18 on the 13th of July, to Boban Indjic?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. What was that?

21 A. There is a prior intercept on the 13th which reflects the fact

22 that a busload of soldiers from Visegrad was proceeding north and broke

23 down, and as a result, the soldiers went back or could not move any

24 further forward. So what you have happening is it wasn't exactly that

25 Major Furtula did not follow the boss's order, he did try and follow the

Page 16363

1 boss's order but because of a mechanical issue, the platoon of soldiers

2 that were supposed to do this was stranded.

3 Q. All right. And Krstic says:

4 "Ljubo, this is not protected."

5 Is he referring to the open airways that they are speaking over?

6 A. Yes, sir.

7 Q. Beara says: "I know, I know."

8 And then Krstic says:

9 "I'll see what I can do but it will disturb a lot. Have a look

10 down there at Nastic and Blagojevic's."

11 Then Beara says:

12 "But I don't have any, if I did I wouldn't still be asking for

13 the third day."

14 And I think we can do the subtracting on that to determine when

15 he was asking originally.

16 And then Krstic says:

17 "Check with Blagojevic, take his Red Berets."

18 Who are the Red Berets of Blagojevic?

19 A. The Red Beret unit was an intervention unit of the 3rd Battalion

20 of the Bratunac Brigade consisting of young and fit soldiers. The unit

21 for the most part -- or all of the members of the unit, I think, except

22 three or four essentially deserted the army on the morning of

23 15 July 1995 or the late evening of the 14th of July 1995, because most

24 of them were reserve police officers and they actually, without

25 authorisation, left the army and put themselves at the disposal of

Page 16364

1 Dragan Vasic in order to become police officers in the town of Srebrenica

2 as he was standing up the police station there.

3 Q. Very briefly, how do you know that?

4 A. There are documents later that, of course, we seized from the

5 Bratunac Brigade where it discusses the very fact that most of the

6 individuals of the unit deserted the army at a certain point of time and

7 they are now employed as police officers in Srebrenica.

8 Q. Okay. Krstic goes on and says:

9 "I'll see what I can do."

10 Beara says:

11 "Check it out and have them go to Drago's."

12 Who do you take Drago to be here?

13 A. In this context, Drago's is a reference to Drago Nikolic, chief

14 of security of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.

15 Q. And why would he have them go to Drago's? Where would that be?

16 A. The prisoners were being held at that time in schools throughout

17 the municipality of the Zvornik area. Drago Nikolic was an individual

18 who was involved in the holding and the execution and the events

19 afterwards with the prisoners. He would be the logical person in this

20 particular context to send these people to so then Nikolic could give

21 them further orders on where they needed to go.

22 Q. All right. And then Krstic says:

23 "I can't guarantee anything."

24 Beara says:

25 "Krle, I don't know what to do anymore."

Page 16365

1 And Krstic says:

2 "Ljubo, take those MUP men from up there."

3 And then Beara says:

4 "No, they won't do anything."

5 What do you believe that reference to the MUP men that won't do

6 anything is? As he says on -- he says:

7 "I talked, there is no other solution but for the 15 to 30 men

8 from Indjic."

9 Who are the MUP men?

10 A. Yes, sir. Again in context of what is happening in Zvornik at

11 the time, a number of MUP forces, police forces, have been sent to the

12 Zvornik Brigade area to reinforce against the threat of the column. In

13 the context of this discussion, Colonel Beara sounds as he has inquired

14 as to whether or not they would be willing to participate in the

15 executions and whoever was the commander of those particular MUP units

16 declined. Colonel Beara as an army individual would not necessarily have

17 the authority to order the MUP to do this type of a task.

18 Q. Then we see for the next couple of lines they go on with just

19 comments of frustration about this issue.

20 Krstic says:

21 "Fuck it, now I'll be the one to blame."

22 Beara says:

23 "I don't know what to do. I mean, Krle, there are still 3500

24 parcels that I have to distribute and I have no solution."

25 What do you take this to mean, "there are still 3500 parcels to

Page 16366

1 deliver and I have no solution"?

2 A. I take this to mean that at this point in time, Colonel Beara

3 understands or believes that there are still 3500 prisoners that he has

4 to deal with, deal with meaning execute, and that he has no ability to

5 conduct these executions.

6 Q. And from the documents in the investigation, can you tell us,

7 does -- how does this fit into it? This number of 3500?

8 A. Yes, sir. It's probably at this point in time a little high.

9 Q. How so?

10 A. At the time this conversation takes place, again in context of

11 what we know happened on the ground, the prisoners at Orahovac, which

12 numbered between 800 and a thousand, I believe are the generally accepted

13 estimates, are already dead. The prisoners that were held at the school

14 in Petkovci, and again between 800 and a thousand are numbers that I'm

15 familiar with, there also their executions have just been completed and

16 the engineers are working to bury the bodies at the foot of the dam.

17 There are still a group of prisoners, a large group of prisoners, and

18 again, I'm not sure of the exact numbers at the school at Rocevic that

19 have not yet been started to be executed. There is a large group of

20 prisoners at the school in Kula who have not yet begun to have been

21 executed. And again, as the information that I'm aware of notes, once

22 the school in Kula was full, they started putting the overflow prisoners

23 in the Dom of Culture in the village of Pilica.

24 So again, if one uses as a baseline figure a thousand prisoners

25 per school location, that's 4.000. Perhaps another 5.000 [sic] in the

Page 16367

1 Dom of Culture. Already 2.000 of the prisoners are dead. He really only

2 has to dispose of or execute another 2500, not 3500.

3 Q. And this term "parcels," we have just saw that term --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you, you said: "Perhaps another 5.000

5 in the Dom of Culture." Did you mean another thousand which makes a

6 total of 5.000 or ...

7 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I believe I said another 500 in the Dom of

8 Culture, I hope I said that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that clarifies it. I think you said 5.000.

10 THE WITNESS: I apologise for that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

13 Q. We see this term "parcels" used by Beara. We just heard the term

14 or saw the term "parcels" used by Jokic. How do you take -- do you see

15 this term "parcels" used in other contexts to determine -- to refer to

16 the Muslim prisoners?

17 A. Yes, sir. That phrase is used in the context to refer to the

18 Muslim prisoners in a number of intercepts.

19 Q. And did Mr. Jokic's slip of the tongue when he said, "people,

20 I mean parcels," assist in that analysis?

21 A. It did, but again, one of the reasons why in our own

22 communications security protocols we tell people not to talk around

23 sensitive topics on an open line is because even though you think you're

24 disguising what may be happening at the time, with the benefit of

25 hindsight it -- obviously to any opponent it becomes evidently clear what

Page 16368

1 you were talking about. The fact that Colonel Jokic himself -- or

2 Major Jokic at the time himself compromised that does lend assistance.

3 Q. All right.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I see "parcels" also on the semi-last line on this

5 page but then in quotation marks. Now, I wonder, is that in the

6 original? And how can you hear quotation marks if it's an intercepted

7 telephone conversation?

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I said "hear" that was a mistake,

9 Mr. President. These are not audios.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, let me see. I'll have a look at the -- I'll

11 have a look at the -- yes, I see that it appears in the original as well,

12 "paketa" which is in quotation marks. Nevertheless, this is written down

13 by someone who listened in, isn't it?

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that is correct.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So still, whether it's audio recorded or not, you

16 still need someone to hear quotation marks. Any explanation for that?

17 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I would suggest that that would be a

18 question for the individual to explain his methodology in doing this as

19 part of their processing. It's not a question I can answer, sir.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you.

22 Q. And if we could go to P1497, we are still on the 15th of July.

23 We will skip ahead, Mr. Butler, from the issues of Milovanovic --

24 Milanovic and others. Can we --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, one of my colleagues draws my

Page 16369

1 attention to the fact that you introduced this report under its

2 65 ter number. Do you want to tender it or is it already MFI'd? Has it

3 received a number already?

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I'm just confused where we are. Which

5 one? An intercept or --

6 MR. IVETIC: 21008A.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is -- has that received already a number,

8 an exhibit number, whether or not MFI'd? No, not. Madam Registrar says

9 it has not. Therefore, the Chamber wonders whether you want to tender

10 it.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please, and thank you very much for that.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ivetic?

13 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, we would object to this intercept as we

14 have the others related to the authenticity of the same. We believe this

15 witness in opining as to what he believes that the document means and

16 what the events in question are is a self-fulfilling prophecy and cannot

17 be used to self-authenticate these intercepts for which, as Your Honours

18 have seen, there are some questions of how quotation marks could have

19 been transmitted or heard by an operator, whether listening to the

20 conversation live or via an audio recording. So we would object to the

21 introduction of this document on that basis.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar? The number to be assigned would

23 be?

24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 21008A receives number P2126,

25 Your Honours.

Page 16370

1 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification for the time being.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And Mr. President, a version of this intercept is

3 in evidence and I have just inadvertently used the one that wasn't and I

4 will find that for you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that in evidence or is it also conditionally

6 admitted? Is it one in the series?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's --

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you give the number then we will further verify.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we will dig that up for you and --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but important is that should we vacate number

11 P2126?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would not. It's the -- I probably -- it's the

13 nice print-out with the clear date on it and, as you know, there has been

14 some confusion there. So I think this -- this is a good one.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So we leave it as it is and you'll inform us under

16 what number the other version of the same intercept is known.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, thank you.

18 Q. Now, if we are at P1497 --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, it is 10.30 by now. If you have only

20 half a question on this, then we would hear it. If you have more, we

21 would like to take the break first.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have more.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You have more. Could the witness be escorted out of

24 the courtroom.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 16371

1 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break and we will resume at

2 10 minutes to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, it looks as if the witness is ready

8 to further be examined.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Mr. Butler, let's go to P1497, it's there, I see it. And this is

11 an interim combat report. We see in the name -- if we go to the second

12 page in English, it's signed by Vinko Pandurevic. And if you go up a

13 little bit in the Serbian so we can see the bottom of that so we actually

14 see a signature, is this an original copy that we got from the

15 Zvornik Brigade from that search?

16 A. Yes, is, it is. The original version of this exists in evidence.

17 Q. All right. And we are now --

18 A. Or I should say more appropriately in the evidence vault.

19 Q. Yes. We are now, as we can see, in the evening hours from the

20 stamp of 1925 hours, that it was -- looks like a sent to the Drina Corps,

21 and we do recall that you just testified about Vinko Pandurevic's units

22 coming back from the Zepa operation to help deal with the problem of the

23 approaching column, which you have talked about so I don't want you to

24 get into that in detail, but these first three paragraphs, can you -- we

25 see that it's just a discussion of the very difficult defence posture

Page 16372

1 that the Zvornik Brigade is in. Is that correct? Could you just offer

2 us your brief words on these first three big paragraphs that Pandurevic

3 is giving to his command up above the Drina Corps?

4 A. Yes, sir, again in context, on the morning of 15 July 1995,

5 Colonel Pandurevic and the Zvornik Brigade forces that were currently

6 engaged in military operations in Zepa were sent back to the zone of the

7 Zvornik Brigade in order to deal with the deteriorating military

8 situation in that zone as a result of the column. These three

9 paragraphs, the first three paragraphs of this document, lay out the

10 tactical understanding of the situation that Colonel Pandurevic has at

11 that time and which he is trying to relay to his superior at the

12 Drina Corps, in this case General Krstic.

13 Q. And from your knowledge, are these -- the information in these

14 three paragraphs roughly accurate as to the situation and his true

15 perception of the situation?

16 A. Yes, sir. To a degree it is accurate. Clearly it is

17 deteriorating even as he is writing this so by the time the actual report

18 is published at the headquarters of the [indiscernible], the situation is

19 getting worse by the hour.

20 Q. And just to put it in overall context, as the Muslim -- armed

21 head of the Muslim column came to this area of the Zvornik Brigade around

22 Baljkovica and the 2nd Corps came across the lines in the early morning

23 hour of the 16th, was that where the fierce fighting occurred and the

24 casualties you've already spoken about occurred?

25 A. Yes, sir. On the morning of the 16th July 1995, the column

Page 16373

1 actually overran the battalion headquarters of the 4th Infantry Battalion

2 near Baljkovica. Also at the same time, on the morning, they had lost an

3 entire company of soldiers and police forces that had come in from

4 various groups that had put out -- had actually been lost in the woods.

5 Colonel Pandurevic at that time feared that that unit had been completely

6 wiped out since it was lost and had no -- he had no radio communications

7 with it. So he believed by the 16th, the morning of the 16th, he was

8 heavily engaged and was taking heavy casualties.

9 Q. To clear that issue up, that unit was found later; right?

10 A. Correct, sir. It did emerge, it had just simply gotten lost in

11 the night. It had no radio communications. Colonel Pandurevic and the

12 Zvornik Brigade naturally under the circumstances assumed the worst.

13 Q. All right. So now getting to the fourth paragraph, an

14 additional -- and I quote:

15 "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners

16 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area as well as obligations

17 of security and restoration of the terrain."

18 Now, of course, the Trial Chamber is fully aware of the prisoners

19 distributed throughout the schools in the brigade area. What do you take

20 this term "obligations of security" to mean?

21 A. The original word in Serbo-Croatian is asanacija. If one looks

22 it up in any of a number of JNA military lexicons or dictionaries, it

23 refers to the process essentially of burying biological waste products

24 that are created on the battlefield for health and safety reasons. The

25 reality is it's a word used to describe, by the military, their burying

Page 16374

1 of dead bodies.

2 Q. And you're referring to restoration of the terrain or obligations

3 of security? I asked you about obligations of security.

4 A. I'm sorry, I apologise completely. I was one ahead there.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Obligations of security, I have testified previously, is

7 Colonel Pandurevic's awareness of the requirement to guard the prisoners

8 in these locations.

9 Q. Now, we have seen security officers engaged in the implementation

10 of the murder operation, but is it your understanding that the

11 obligations of security in that context is a completely different word in

12 Serbian so this does not mean the obligations of the security branch?

13 A. Correct, so, and again in context of what's happening at this

14 time, Colonel Pandurevic is aware that at the very minimum, his military

15 police units are being used to have to guard the thousands of prisoners

16 at the schools. And in fact, not only are military police units guarding

17 them, other soldiers of the Zvornik Brigade who could be performing

18 duties on the front line or in other locations are, in fact, also being

19 pulled out of various locations in order to guard these prisoners because

20 clearly a thousand desperate prisoners in a single location makes for a

21 significant security threat.

22 Q. And you just mentioned the -- in the previous answer, the

23 thousand plus in the area of the Kula school and the Pilica cultural

24 centre. Are Pandurevic's people involved in guarding those?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 16375

1 Q. And Rocevic, Kozluk, the executions that occurred that day, is it

2 clear whether or not in the evening hours that is still an obligation or

3 is that done?

4 A. My understanding from the investigation is that by the evening of

5 15 July 1995, those prisoners who were held in the school at Rocevic

6 had -- the executions were being completed at Kozluk.

7 Q. So if this is interpreted to mean the obligations to guard the

8 remaining prisoners and the restoration of the terrain meaning to bury

9 the dead prisoners, do we see Vinko Pandurevic's men involved in the

10 actual executions which appears to be left out in this -- in this

11 statement?

12 A. It is left out in this statement, but the investigation through

13 the years has identified soldiers from various battalions and subunits of

14 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade involved in the actual executions.

15 Q. And you have described fighting going on in this area on the

16 15th and -- most of it, you said, was the early morning hours of the

17 16th. How do you know that -- or that this restoration of this terrain,

18 this burying of the bodies, is not a reference to cleaning up any

19 battlefield dead on the day of the 14th or 15th in this area?

20 A. Again, sir, this comes back to why one of my analytical interests

21 in the column, where it was located and what its activities were,

22 throughout the course of the three days of the crimes, was so that

23 I could verify that the military activities that we were seeing with

24 respect to the engineer records related to burial operations, was not

25 connected to casualties from the column but was, in fact, directly

Page 16376

1 connected to the burial of bodies that were killed in the executions.

2 The engineer company logbook, for example, of the Zvornik Brigade,

3 reflects that the engineers are operating the bulldozers and bucket

4 loaders are operating at locations on the 15th at Orahovac and at

5 Petkovci. The column was not at those two locations, was kilometres

6 away. Correspondingly, the work that they were doing was with the

7 results of the human remains from the executions. It was not as a result

8 of collecting human remains from the column.

9 Q. And militarily, if this is -- situation is as urgent as

10 described, being from the Muslim column from the rear, from the 2nd Corps

11 of the front, would a military commander in your view be spending

12 valuable resources going out into the woods to pick up dead?

13 A. Again, as I've testified with respect to this, I might understand

14 Colonel Pandurevic expending and risking his soldiers' lives to recover

15 the bodies of dead Serbian soldiers. He would not be doing the same to

16 recover the bodies of dead Muslim soldiers in an area where there are

17 still active combat operations occurring.

18 Q. And by the evening of the 15th, were there any significant

19 numbers of killed or battlefield wounded Serbian soldiers -- Bosnian Serb

20 soldiers in those woods?

21 A. In the sense of casualties taken by the Army of the Republika

22 Srpska in the Zvornik Brigade during the course of the war, the answer is

23 yes. Perhaps 15 to 20 individuals who were either killed or wounded.

24 Certainly the Army of the Republika Srpska and the Zvornik Brigade was

25 not -- did not have casualties and dead bodies that would number hundreds

Page 16377

1 and certainly would not account for the numbers that are found in those

2 mass graves.

3 Q. But my question was, Mr. Butler, would that have -- could that

4 reference to burying bodies be such a significant resource drain that he

5 would have been mentioning that to his corps command, burying any -- any

6 of his own men at that point? I mean were his own men dead in the woods

7 at that point?

8 A. I see your question, sorry, yes. It would not. I mean, he was

9 talking clearly about burying other bodies. He was not burdening the

10 corps command, telling his commander how difficult it is to bury dead

11 Serbian soldiers who had been killed.

12 Q. And had there been any significant numbers killed based on your

13 review at that time on the evening of 15 July?

14 A. No, sir, not yet.

15 Q. Okay. All right. Then we go on in the document --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you asked the question, had there

17 been any significant numbers killed, killed among -- because we are

18 talking about Serb soldiers being killed, and others being killed, what

19 was your question about?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I'll try to make that clear.

21 Q. Did your investigation indicate any Bosnian Serb soldiers that

22 were in the defence of the Zvornik area dealing with the column and the

23 2nd Corps, were there any indications that any of them were killed on the

24 early evening hours of 15 July?

25 A. I think as a component of his either interim report or the daily

Page 16378

1 combat report, he talks about some casualties from the Zvornik Brigade,

2 but that they only number at that time, I think, maybe four or five.

3 They were firing from prepared positions in various locations, so at that

4 juncture, he had not suffered the most serious casualties the brigade

5 would suffer the next day.

6 Q. So to be absolutely clear, those roughly four or five, gathering

7 them from their locations of wounding or death, would that be the kind of

8 resource that he would be complaining to his forward command for?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness answered that question already.

10 That it was not. Were these four or five included in the 15 to 20 you

11 mentioned earlier?

12 THE WITNESS: No, sir. If you look at the interim combat report

13 and if you look at the third paragraph, I think it's perhaps the fourth

14 or fifth line down, Colonel Pandurevic is explaining to the higher

15 headquarters what he believes his casualties are at the time.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. Sorry, I don't see it. Can you read what you're talking about?

18 A. The line is:

19 "So far, according to information received, we have four dead and

20 a dozen or so wounded."

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's -- you earlier referred to 15 to

23 20 --

24 THE WITNESS: Total.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- dead and wounded.

Page 16379

1 THE WITNESS: Total.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Total. Yes, that's understood. That's clear to me.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

5 Q. Then he goes on and says:

6 "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer and

7 it has neither the material nor other resources. If no one takes on this

8 responsibility, I will be forced to let them go."

9 So tell us what you believe each of these sentences mean:

10 "The command cannot take care of these problems any longer as it

11 has neither the material nor the resources."

12 He's listed quite a few problems above that. Which ones do you

13 think he's talking about?

14 A. In this context he's talking about both sets of problems.

15 Obviously he is having to deal with the issues of the column. He's also

16 cognizant of the personnel and material resources that the issue of

17 dealing with the prisoners is having an impact. I mean, the reality is

18 that the personnel, be they individuals who are guarding the prisoners,

19 individuals who are involved in the execution, and individuals who are

20 involved in the burial operations, I mean, these are all soldiers. And

21 had it not been for the obligations of guarding the prisoners, and what

22 follows subsequently, it stands to reason that these soldiers would be

23 immediately put into the front lines and engaged in combat activity

24 against the column, which, again, by Colonel Pandurevic's estimate of the

25 size, is numerically superior to the forces that he's able to at that

Page 16380

1 point on the battlefield array against them.

2 Q. Okay. This last line here, "if no one takes on this

3 responsibility, I will be forced to let them go," who do you believe the

4 "them" is in this sentence?

5 A. I have testified in the past, and it is still my belief, that in

6 this particular sentence he's referring to the prisoners. Again, as a

7 matter of fairness I understand that Colonel Pandurevic has a different

8 interpretation for this.

9 Q. Well, why do you think he's referring to the prisoners?

10 A. Because, again, as it's been noted, as a course of the

11 investigation, on the afternoon of 15 July, one of the first things that

12 Colonel Pandurevic did was he had a meeting with his key staff officers

13 as well as some of the police commanders at the Zvornik Brigade

14 headquarters, when he returned from Zepa, in order to fully acquaint

15 himself with the situation. A number of the MUP individuals, as some of

16 the documents note, their idea was that the Zvornik Brigade should let

17 the column pass through so that they would minimise any risk to their own

18 forces. Colonel Pandurevic obviously as the brigade commander denied

19 that and in fact indicated that he intended to engage in battle against

20 the column with the intention of destroying it in as much detail as he

21 possibly could. It would be, in my mind, particularly this early on

22 15 July 1995, that the military situation, while it was deteriorating, it

23 did not deteriorate to a state where this early Colonel Pandurevic was

24 already considering letting the column go. He wanted, at this point in

25 time, again looking at the totality of information that I'm aware of, he

Page 16381

1 wanted to defeat the column. He understood the military capacity and

2 threat that it represented.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could I seek clarification perhaps

4 from the parties rather than from the witness. The witness explains that

5 he thinks the word "them" refers to the prisoners. Now, apparently, you

6 also indicated that Mr. Pandurevic has a different interpretation of the

7 word "them." I think for our minds it would be better listening to the

8 evidence to know what the other interpretation is. Now, I do not know

9 whether it's an interpretation which will be adopted by the Defence or

10 not, or whether the parties agree on what the interpretation of the word

11 "them" by Mr. Pandurevic is so that we are better able to listen focused

12 to what seems to be in dispute.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I was going to go there with

14 another interpretation. And whether it's precisely Pandurevic's during

15 his testimony, I don't recall, but there is one other clear

16 interpretation that's been used in the Defence cases over the years and

17 I was going to ask Mr. Butler about.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes, of course, usually a witness would not

19 explain what a party's position in another case would be if the --

20 therefore I'm asking whether the parties agree on -- you understand, if

21 we hear the evidence, if we know what the other possible interpretation

22 is, you are better able to already start analysing the answer when you

23 know what the competing interpretation of the word "them" would be.

24 Therefore I'm also addressing the Defence whether they have a view on

25 that or whether they could tell us anything about what in their view

Page 16382

1 "them" would be. If not, we will continue --

2 MR. IVETIC: At this stage I think not. I think also that the

3 relevant portion on the B/C/S original is not on the screen so I can't

4 even view it, and since it's handwritten it would take me a while to even

5 look at the context in which it's written. And as we sit here now,

6 I personally don't know Pandurevic's view or explanation for this

7 particular document. As you can imagine, the other trials --

8 JUDGE ORIE: The simple answer therefore is no.

9 MR. IVETIC: Correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thanks. Let's proceed.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: And Mr. Butler doesn't need to comment on that,

12 Mr. President, and I wouldn't --

13 JUDGE ORIE: No, I know that, but I was just asking whether we

14 could create a situation in which the Chamber could, when listening and

15 analysing the evidence of the witness, which you do at the moment you

16 hear it, whether the competing interpretation of "them" was known.

17 Apparently it's not. There is no agreement between the parties on what

18 it is. Let's then proceed.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And that was my plan and my

20 approach and we are almost there.

21 Q. Can I -- before we get there, Mr. Butler, you've mentioned that

22 you believe based on the documents that Pandurevic wanted to destroy this

23 Muslim group which we know are the remaining men from Srebrenica. Would

24 he have done that -- would those have been his orders generated by

25 himself or would those have come from higher command in this context?

Page 16383

1 A. In this context, he would be obviously following, if not the

2 specific orders, certainly following the commander's intent, his

3 leadership's intent that the column be militarily destroyed. It's not in

4 isolation his order to do that. I mean, he's following within the

5 context of the larger plan.

6 Q. And as we now know, on the 16th, a corridor was opened up and

7 after the fighting people were allowed to go through. Did you have any

8 indication about how General Mladic felt about allowing these remnants of

9 Srebrenica to walk through this open corridor?

10 A. Yes, sir. Indirectly, when Colonel Pandurevic opens the corridor

11 on his own authority, this is not something he has previously coordinated

12 with any of his superiors. As a result, what happens is that there is a

13 flurry of communications between various channels of not only the army

14 and of the civilian side to get clarification of what has happened. What

15 ended up happening in context was that the state security organs of the

16 Republika Srpska learned that the column was allowed to pass, they had

17 informed the political leadership of the RS, the RS political leadership

18 was inquiring of the army what was happening and if this, in fact, was

19 the case. And again there is a series of intercepts where the military

20 leadership is directing people who were in the Zvornik Brigade area to

21 personally go find Colonel Pandurevic and get an explanation for what has

22 happened.

23 Q. All right. And we'll see that document a little later if we have

24 time.

25 Now, getting back to this document in front of us, "if no one

Page 16384

1 takes on this responsibility, I will be forced to let them go," what is

2 your understanding of Pandurevic's Defence version of this? Or his --

3 what does Pandurevic say about this?

4 A. Again, my recollection of Colonel Pandurevic is --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ivetic?

6 MR. IVETIC: If we have -- if counsel has the testimony of

7 Pandurevic that we could be put in e-court and on the screen, that's one

8 thing, but they have a witness referring to testimony from another case

9 that's not before us, that we don't have a means of immediately verifying

10 and I don't think that's proper even for an expert witness. I mean,

11 I think that the -- if it's something that's not referenced in evidence

12 or in a report, we are entitled to see it and then have the -- the

13 witness can comment upon it and give his opinions upon it, but to have a

14 witness, even an expert witness, try to recollect what another party's

15 evidence in another proceeding was, I think is just -- it's open to

16 error, I mean.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I'm okay with that. We can

18 get to where I know the Trial Chamber wants to go without referencing

19 Pandurevic.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That at least would then meet the concerns of

21 Mr. Ivetic. Now, if you can do it in another way, then please do it.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. Mr. Butler, there has been an interpretation of this by others

24 and I don't want to put any value judgement on it, that you have been

25 made aware of in cross-examination over the years. Can you tell us what

Page 16385

1 that interpretation is and what you think of it? For example, what does

2 that interpretation say that "I will be forced to let them go," what is

3 the reference -- what is that reference according to this other

4 interpretation?

5 MR. IVETIC: Well, Your Honour, I think that's the exact same

6 question even in a worse light because now we have an unknown source

7 which we therefore then can't [indiscernible] and verify it. For an

8 expert that's precisely what they are not supposed to do according to the

9 jurisprudence of the Tribunal.

10 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I'll put a few questions to the witness.

13 Mr. Butler, were you ever -- did you ever receive any information

14 about what Mr. Pandurevic's position on the interpretation of this line

15 would be?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you receive that or how did you

18 receive that information?

19 THE WITNESS: Even though I was not here, I did follow the

20 transcripts of Colonel Pandurevic's testimony.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So you learned that from reading the transcripts?

22 THE WITNESS: The public transcripts of his testimony, yes, sir.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, could you tell us what was your

24 understanding of the position of Pandurevic as based on the reading of

25 the transcript?

Page 16386

1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. And again, if I recall the transcripts

2 correctly, his interpretation was that he was referring to -- letting

3 them go being letting the column go.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you read that in view of the -- your

5 own research, did you consider this to be consistent with your research,

6 and if not, where did you find the inconsistency, what led you to believe

7 that that could not be the proper answer to such a question?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I think I -- I hope I alluded to it in

9 some of my prior testimony maybe 10 or 15 minutes ago. It is not

10 consistent with my belief of what the interpretation of this line is,

11 with respect to letting them go, and it is not because of my

12 understanding of the context of the meeting that took place at the

13 Zvornik Brigade headquarters on the arrival of Colonel Pandurevic and

14 Colonel Pandurevic's stated intention of militarily engaging the column

15 with the intention of defeating it to the detail he believed he could do.

16 And then suddenly, several hours later, without a significant change in

17 circumstances, Colonel Pandurevic is essentially, if one reads this the

18 way that it takes it as, under Colonel Pandurevic's view, he's

19 essentially threatening the corps commander that: If you don't send

20 additional resources, I will in essence abdicate my military

21 responsibilities of attacking the column as a soldier and I will let them

22 escape. So again --

23 JUDGE ORIE: "Them" now being?

24 THE WITNESS: "Them" being the column. Again, taking

25 Colonel Pandurevic's view as a result of his testimony on this. So

Page 16387

1 again, I accept obviously that this is Colonel Pandurevic's position and

2 why it is his position. I don't think it is logically supported by the

3 prevailing events that are happening on the ground at the time. But

4 again, as I said earlier, I do understand there are two schools of

5 thought on this issue.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And yours is let them -- "I'll let them go" is

7 let the prisoners go?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY:

11 Q. And did you consider in this analysis that this term, "I will be

12 forced to let them go," is immediately below the -- or not immediately

13 below but right -- right below what you have described as the guarding

14 and burying of the prisoners?

15 A. Yes, sir.

16 Q. And if Pandurevic is -- under your interpretation is -- appears

17 to be obviously frustrated or concerned about all these prisoners in his

18 zone, do we see him indicate any similar frustration to those very same

19 prisoners in any other documents, shortly after this?

20 A. Yes, sir. In fact, on 18 July 1995, again, Colonel Pandurevic

21 will author an interim combat report to the command of the Drina Corps,

22 essentially laying out his case for what actions he took and why he took

23 them and why he believed he was justified in doing so. One of the things

24 that he raises, as he says in his interim combat report, is the issue

25 that somebody made the decision to put all of these prisoners in schools

Page 16388

1 in his municipality, and I think we will get to that document and the

2 exact wording of that is evident.

3 Q. We will try to get to that document. Let's go to the next

4 document.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question still about this document?

6 The next line reads:

7 "I made an offer to the commander of the other side to separate

8 out the civilian and have the others surrender."

9 Is there any documentary support for that elsewhere, that they

10 apparently would have negotiated to distinguish between military and

11 civilians and then at least let the civilians go?

12 THE WITNESS: I understand your question, sir. I know that there

13 are intercept communications and there may even be in some of the combat

14 reports discussions where Colonel Pandurevic or other individuals from

15 the Zvornik Brigade are aware that the Bosnian Muslim forces in the

16 column have been talking with their corresponding Bosnian Serb military

17 counterparts, and that there have been various offers going back and

18 forth. The Bosnian Muslims obviously wished to go out as a complete

19 column, and the Bosnian Serb position has been, We would be willing to

20 let potentially the civilians go but all of the military personnel must

21 surrender, in essence be taken prisoner by them. So under the

22 circumstances neither side, particularly on the 15th of July, felt that

23 they would accept those -- those terms with each other.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But is there any documentary evidence of meetings or

25 communications between the parties, apart from internal discussions

Page 16389

1 within one party about what to do or what not to do, is there any --

2 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of any face-to-face discussions.

3 These negotiations took place over radio networks.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Radio networks between the two parties?

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I mean they used common equipment. They

6 knew what frequencies each was on, and so I believe that Dusko Vukotic,

7 the intelligence officer from the Zvornik Brigade, was the actual radio

8 telephonic go-between because of where he was located between -- that

9 would relay offers by the Bosnian Muslim side to the Bosnian Serb side

10 and vice versa.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did those communications which are described

12 now here in the interim combat report, did they continue after this

13 report was --

14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, they continued all the way through the

15 ultimate decision by Colonel Pandurevic to let the column go.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY:

18 Q. And, Mr. Butler, in that regard, are you aware of the tactical

19 intercepts that were taken by the Bosnian Muslim side?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. And do you recall if a person name Semso Muminovic was involved

22 in this negotiation in any way?

23 A. Yes, sir. He was the principal party on the Muslim side seeking

24 to make this -- to negotiate the release of the column.

25 Q. Okay. All right.

Page 16390

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to the next document, P1501. And this

2 is the duty officer notebook of the Zvornik Brigade, the teacher's

3 edition so we should go to page 79 in the English and page 78 in the

4 B/C/S, and we are now into 16 July.

5 Q. And, Mr. Butler, I'm drawing your attention to the centre of the

6 page, and the Trial Chamber has heard about what this book is and how

7 these notes are done, but can you tell us, this reference, 0855, Golic

8 asked Popovic to call him and said that he can forget what he asked for

9 and what he wrote about --

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you stop for a moment? We need it back on

11 the screen. Thank you.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

13 Q. Thank you.

14 "He knows what he's supposed to do, according to the agreed

15 procedure (boss from Panorama 01) message conveyed to Popovic at 0910."

16 Okay, tell us, Golic, as everyone knows is, a relatively common

17 name. Can you tell us who you believe in the context of this Golic is?

18 A. Yes, sir. This is Major Golic, one of the security officers at

19 the Drina Corps command.

20 Q. Is it -- we talked about Golic in the last day or two with

21 documents. Was he a security officer?

22 A. I'm sorry, he is a -- he is an intelligence officer in this

23 context.

24 Q. And Popovic, this Popovic, who do you believe it is?

25 A. This is Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic who is the chief of security

Page 16391

1 for the Drina Corps.

2 Q. And has your investigation revealed what it was that -- that

3 Popovic is asking for, what this reference was that he can forget about?

4 A. I don't believe I've ever been able to put that in a context,

5 that line.

6 Q. Okay. And here on the 16th of July, what, very briefly, has your

7 analysis shown that Popovic is up to?

8 A. Yes, sir. On the 16th of July, there is a number of intercepts

9 as well as documents which reflect that Colonel Popovic is in the zone of

10 the Zvornik Infantry Brigade and that he is engaged in seeking to get

11 fuel to the village of Pilica. When one looks in this in context of the

12 larger issues that are occurring, and again there is documents and

13 material related to it in intercepts, Colonel Pandurevic --

14 Colonel Popovic is involved with the execution of the prisoners up at

15 Pilica and in the Dom of Culture, who are ultimately killed in either

16 Branjevo or in the Dom of Culture, and that at some juncture they run out

17 of fuel in order to transport prisoners from Pilica to the dome. So

18 there is a large body of information that reflects his activity dealing

19 with the Zvornik Brigade and the Drina Corps to ensure that fuel can be

20 sent to Pilica, as he says in his own words in the intercept, to complete

21 the job.

22 Q. Okay. As we go through this it then says:

23 "He knows what he's supposed to do, according to the agreed

24 procedure, boss from Panorama 01."

25 Now, who would the boss from Panorama 01 be?

Page 16392

1 A. Again, Panorama is the telephonic code name for the Main Staff

2 headquarters. As part of the military vernacular that they used, when

3 you see the suffix 01 after that, you are to take that as being the

4 commander personally. There will be notations of Panorama 01, the

5 commander personally being General Mladic. Zlatar 01, the commander,

6 depending on which day it is, either General Zivanovic or General Krstic.

7 Same with Zvornik, Palma 01 being Colonel Pandurevic.

8 Q. And this reference to --

9 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I rise --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.

11 MR. IVETIC: I just confirm that the B/C/S original says:

12 "Glavni sa Panorama 1," it does not say "boss."

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first look at the original. I don't know

14 whether it can be enlarged. Can it be -- could you, looking at the

15 original, Mr. Ivetic, take us to what line of this 855 entry?

16 Please, microphone.

17 MR. IVETIC: It is the second-to-last line of that paragraph.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are looking at the portion between the

19 brackets.

20 MR. LUKIC: Correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you slowly read that, and again it's not a

22 verification of the translation but to see whether there may be a problem

23 at all.

24 MR. IVETIC: I would begin now in B/C/S: "Glavni sa

25 Panorama 01."

Page 16393

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This was not translated to us at this

2 moment -- interpreted. I should make the distinction. Glavni would

3 stand for, and I'm seeking the assistance of the interpreters.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I'm sorry, they may have

5 rules about the official CLSS, I don't know, but if your question could

6 include the whole sentence so that we can get it in context? Words by

7 themselves may mean different things.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think the only thing is that the parts within

10 brackets seems to be in dispute. Again, not to give the final word but

11 if I would pronounce these words, as -- and if I would be able to do it

12 exactly the same way as Mr. Ivetic did, how would that be interpreted for

13 us at this moment? Could the booth tell us. And, again, if there is any

14 possible inconsistency with the translation as we find it on paper, it

15 will be formally submitted to CLSS for verification of the translation,

16 but if there is no need at all to do it, we would avoid it.

17 Could I hear from the English booth?

18 I don't hear anything. I never know whether to look to the right

19 or to the left but --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, we were on the wrong channel. Could

21 Mr. Ivetic please repeat once again the exact words.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just the four words, Mr. Ivetic.

23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. And now I switch to B/C/S.

24 [Interpretation] The main one from Panorama 01.

25 JUDGE ORIE: "The main one" instead of "the boss." I think

Page 16394

1 whether -- Mr. McCloskey's body language tells me that he considers the

2 main one to be the same as the boss. It will be submitted, this specific

3 line, for verification to CLSS.

4 May I take it that you'll take the initiative Mr. McCloskey.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, absolutely.

6 Q. And just to reiterate, Mr. Butler, you're talking about the words

7 "Panorama 01." What does that refer to, if we forget about the boss or

8 the main one?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think he has explained that. He has compared

10 Panorama 01 to Zlatar 01, et cetera, and then it will always be the --

11 the person at the top of that unit or organisation. I think we heard

12 that a minute ago.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I wanted to make --

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Pages 46, lines 24 and 25.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at it --

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just wanted him to do it -- make sure it's the

17 same if it was separate from this what may be a confusing reference.

18 Q. All right. And message conveyed to Popovic at 910, that's --

19 that speaks for itself. We will talk about that a bit later, so let's go

20 to the next intercept, 1329.

21 And has your analysis over the years determined that this

22 intercept was on the 16th?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And can you tell us who you believe Cerovic is in this?

25 A. Cerovic in this context is Colonel Cerovic who is the assistant

Page 16395

1 commander for morale and legal affairs for the Drina Corps.

2 Q. All right. And I won't go through it all but we hear that there

3 is this -- Cerovic is telling Beara that triage needs to be done. And

4 what do you take that to mean?

5 A. Yes, sir. As the investigation has laid out, the prisoners that

6 were being held in the schools from the 14th through the 16th of July,

7 1995, did not receive any medical treatment whatsoever. In this context,

8 and given the fact that the orders go to Colonel Beara in that particular

9 sense, he's obviously not a medical doctor, I take this to refer to a

10 euphemism that the remaining prisoners are to be killed.

11 Q. And if Cerovic is at the Drina Corps command at Vlasenica and we

12 go down and see that he says:

13 "Trkulja was here with me just now and he was looking for you,"

14 meaning I take it Beara, "I don't know."

15 And Beara says: "Yes."

16 And Cerovic says: "So he told me he got instructions from

17 above."

18 Remind us who Trkulja is?

19 A. Colonel Trkulja is an officer on the Main Staff, his staff

20 responsibility includes oversight of armour and mechanised forces.

21 Q. And if he got this information about triage from above, who do

22 you -- who would you take that to include?

23 A. In that particular context, being he is an officer, a senior

24 officer of the Main Staff, above would be those officers appointed over

25 him, General Major Miletic and General Major -- Lieutenant General

Page 16396

1 Krstic -- I'm sorry, Mladic.

2 Q. And then we see that Beara says:

3 "I don't want to talk about it on the phone."

4 Would that be -- would that support your view?

5 A. Yes, sir. Clearly this is a topic, going back to knowing that

6 their communications were susceptible to being intercepted, it was not

7 something that they wanted out there.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to P1501.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But first I would like to look at the transcript.

10 On page 47, line 1, it seems as if I rose and confirmed what the B/C/S

11 original said, but it was Mr. Ivetic who did so. Please proceed.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

13 Q. We are going back, P1501, page 81 in the English, page 80 in the

14 B/C/S. Back to the Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook. We are still

15 on 16 July. And to remind us that that intercept we just saw was noted

16 to be at 1111 hours. And we see a note here in the duty officer

17 notebook:

18 "At 1115 hours it was reported from Zlatar that a triage of

19 wounded and prisoners must be carried out," and then in parentheses, "it

20 was reported to Beara."

21 And do you connect this in any way with the intercept we saw that

22 happened just a few minutes earlier?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. All right. Let's go to P1333. And again, do you know from your

25 study that this intercept was on 16 July 1995?

Page 16397

1 A. Yes, sir.

2 Q. As you can probably see the hard copy, we haven't got there quite

3 yet.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if -- for the Serbian version, if we can take

5 a minute to let folks read that and then flip it to the rest of it where

6 the body, I think, of the intercept is.

7 Q. You had made a brief reference earlier about Popovic and Pilica

8 and things. Looking at this intercept between Zlatar and Palma, so

9 between the Drina Corps and the Zvornik Brigade, we see the Palma duty

10 officer talking -- saying that 500 litres of diesel fuel for

11 Lieutenant Popovic. And then we see them - just go down - speaking of a

12 bit more and then Basovic gets on the line. Who do you believe Basovic

13 to be?

14 A. Major Basovic is a technical services officer with the

15 Drina Corps.

16 Q. All right. And then we go down a little bit further it says:

17 "Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic is here at Palma, you know," we know

18 what that means, and Popovic is at Palma, and then -- and then P, the

19 Palma duty officer says:

20 "500 litres of D2 are urgently being asked for or else the work

21 he's doing will stop."

22 And then it goes on and actually mentions that a bus loaded with

23 oil is to go to the Pilica village.

24 What work do you believe this is referring to, and what work do

25 you know was going on in the Pilica area on the 16th of July at about

Page 16398

1 1358 hours?

2 A. Again, my understanding from the investigation is that at that

3 time, buses were still bringing prisoners from the school in Kula and

4 Pilica to Branjevo where they were being executed.

5 Q. Let's go to the next page in English. And we see here that there

6 are references to Golic and Pop and the 500 litres. Who do you believe

7 Pop is in this context?

8 A. Pop is a nickname for Colonel Popovic.

9 Q. And then finally there is a reference about -- to

10 Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic. Remind us of his position and how he may

11 fit into this, briefly?

12 A. Colonel -- Lieutenant-Colonel Krsmanovic is someone we've heard

13 earlier on the intercepts. He is the chief of transportation services

14 for the Drina Corps.

15 Q. And are you aware, we have just seen this reference to Popovic

16 and the procedure from Panorama 01 and now we see this reference to fuel

17 and Pilica, were you aware in your study that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic

18 was involved in any legitimate counter-intelligence or military-legal

19 work on the 16th of July?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go now again back to the duty officer notebook. But

22 it's break time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It is, Mr. McCloskey. But could the witness first

24 be escorted out of the courtroom?

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 16399

1 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we will resume at quarter past

2 12.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness will be escorted into the courtroom.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. All right. Can we go to P1501, page

9 85 in the English, page 84 in the Serbian, it's the duty officer

10 notebook.

11 Q. And we had just left this intercept from 1358 hours about Popovic

12 and fuel to Pilica. And now we are on a page that we have identified as

13 16 July. There we go. And we see this notation now this -- this

14 intercept was 1358, this notation at 1400 hours, Popovic requested a bus

15 with a full tank and 500 litres of D2.

16 Do you connect this to the intercept we just saw?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. And it notes that Zlatar duty officer and Golic informed. And

19 also at the bottom of this, there is a notation, that they called from

20 Zlatar, that the commander is to call the Zlatar duty officer or send a

21 report on the situation in the field. So we know that the call from the

22 Drina Corps and the commander. Who do you take the commander to be? Who

23 does -- what -- who is Drina Corps looking for here?

24 A. The commander, in the context of who is taking the call, the

25 commander that they are referring to is Colonel Pandurevic.

Page 16400

1 Q. All right. And the Drina Corps duty officer wants him to send a

2 written report on the situation in the field at 1525. Again, tell us

3 briefly what this is about. How it fits into what you've been saying,

4 but very briefly?

5 A. Yes, sir. Again in context of what's happening on the ground,

6 this is about the time that word starts to get out that

7 Colonel Pandurevic has concluded a temporary battlefield truce with the

8 column and is allowing the column to depart Republika Srpska territory

9 and enter ABiH-held territory.

10 Q. All right. And let's go to the next document now. It's

11 65 ter 4271. And this is a logistics document that we picked up from the

12 Zvornik Brigade; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And how, if at all, can you relate this to this intercept and the

15 note -- the notebook reference to Popovic and fuel?

16 A. Yes, sir. I mean, it's related. Clearly it is a routine fuel

17 receipt reflecting that on a certain day and time, so many litres,

18 500 litres exactly, were allotted to Popovic, Colonel --

19 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic is noted in block 15 and 140 litres were

20 returned.

21 In a broader sense, this document takes us back to a discussion

22 that we had at the beginning of my testimony about analysis related to

23 authenticating the body of intercepts. Here you have a routine fuel

24 document receipt that was seized by the Office of the Prosecutor in 1997,

25 buried in one of dozens of binders in the technical services office of

Page 16401

1 the Zvornik Brigade, that exactly corresponds to an intercepted

2 communication that the ABiH had in July of 1995 and obviously neither

3 party had any awareness of the other's holding of this information.

4 Q. Also briefly, what does it tell us, if anything, about a security

5 officer's ability to obtain resources on his own or outside the chain of

6 command?

7 A. As briefly as I can, obviously under the circumstances, one of

8 the primary defences of many of the commanders in previous proceedings

9 has been that the security officers essentially and unlawfully took

10 control of various military units in order to have their way conducting

11 these mass executions and that the commanders and their other

12 representatives had no knowledge or were otherwise in no way involved.

13 This particular vignette where you're looking at a security officer of

14 the Drina Corps, obviously a powerful person, still having to follow the

15 normal military channels to obtain fuel, the normal military bureaucracy,

16 even though it's for a crime, and he's being disbursed the fuel and he's

17 having to turn in the remainder of the fuel, is -- in my opinion supports

18 the fact that the chain of command and the military bureaucracy

19 associated with it was functioning normally even though it was engaged in

20 the commission of a large-scale criminal act.

21 Q. On the same topic, again briefly, taking us back just in our

22 memories to the conversation between Beara and Zivanovic and Beara and

23 Krstic, where Beara is trying to get resources of men to do his -- to

24 carry out the executions, how does the fact that you have a -- the

25 Colonel from the Main Staff going to a Drina Corps general fit into this

Page 16402

1 analysis about the power and any potential independence of even a

2 Main Staff security officer?

3 A. Yes, sir. Colonel Beara clearly, as a Main Staff security

4 officer, had a wide-ranging set of powers. Having said that, those

5 powers and authorities did not include the ability to essentially order

6 troops that were not subordinate to him to commit any act, whether it was

7 a legitimate military act or a crime. He had to talk to the commanders

8 of those units, Colonel or General Zivanovic first when he thought he was

9 the commander, and then when learning he was no longer the commander,

10 General Krstic, in order to seek his authorisation to make those troops

11 available.

12 So again, it goes back to my view that the military security

13 officials, while committing very unfortunate and in fact criminal acts,

14 they were heavily involved in that, they were doing that within the wider

15 context of their normal military authorities. They could not have done

16 these acts unless their commanders had directed them to do that and,

17 again, it's been an issue in various courts through the years going back

18 and forth on this particular issue.

19 It is my opinion that, again, this and other documents of this

20 sort lay the foundation and confirms my view that the military chain of

21 command was functioning as it was supposed to function under the JNA

22 rules and regulations that were in effect, that the officers were

23 ordering the acts within the competence of their authorities, and that

24 the security branch did not mutiny somehow or otherwise unlawfully usurp

25 the powers that were granted to them.

Page 16403

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document into evidence.

2 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04271 receives number P2127,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: P1501, please, page 87 in the English, page 86 in

8 the B/C/S.

9 Q. So back to the duty officer notebook for 16 July, and you just

10 testified that you were not aware of any counter-intelligence or

11 military-legal jobs that Popovic was doing or something to that effect.

12 But on this page, we can see in the middle of -- just below the middle of

13 the page, that the Zvornik Brigade gets a message from Zlatar that

14 Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic must go to Vinko Pandurevic in the field at

15 1640 hours and this is the message through the 1st Battalion that Popovic

16 must report to the duty officer so he can be sent on to the task by

17 Zlatar.

18 So first of all, why do you think this is the message has to go

19 through the 1st Battalion and where is that in relation to these events?

20 A. The zone or the area of the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade

21 encompasses the village of Pilica and the area around Branjevo, the

22 school at Kula, so the fact that they had to reach Popovic through the

23 1st Battalion corresponds to the fact that he was in that area at that

24 time.

25 Q. And what do you believe the subject matter of this message is

Page 16404

1 about? Why is it that the Drina Corps command is now telling Popovic

2 he's got to go see Pandurevic in the field? And of course tell us where

3 you think Pandurevic is on the afternoon of the 16th of July.

4 A. My understanding is that at this point in time Colonel Pandurevic

5 is at his forward command post. At this point in time, as the

6 investigation notes, the decision has been made by Colonel Pandurevic to

7 allow the column to leave VRS territory. Word of that decision is being

8 heard in various locations by various officials, but at that point in

9 time, no one is able to confirm this is accurate information because

10 nobody has heard anything from Colonel Pandurevic. So Zlatar, the

11 Drina Corps headquarters, and the duty officer there, knowing that they

12 have a Drina Corps officer in the zone of the Zvornik Brigade, is seeking

13 to get him out to talk to Colonel Pandurevic so somebody can report back

14 to the Drina Corps what happened.

15 Q. All right. Let's go to an intercept P1338. And this is an

16 intercept from the 16th of July, a CSB intercept, at 1615 hours, so close

17 to the time from that last page, where a conversation was recorded

18 between the Main Staff duty officer and General Mladic, who was not

19 audible. So it's important in looking at this to understand that we are

20 only hearing one side of the conversation in this. Is that correct,

21 Mr. Butler?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. And we are just hearing what the Main Staff duty officer is

24 saying?

25 A. That is correct, sir.

Page 16405

1 Q. All right. And just a bit of it I'll get out.

2 "Well, it's like this, I've just sent a telegram to Toso."

3 I think you've told us Toso you believe to be a nickname for

4 Tolimir. And where is Tolimir on the 16th, as far as you know?

5 A. He's engaged in dealing with military operations around Zepa.

6 Q. Okay. And it says:

7 "Well, the president called a short while ago, and he said that

8 he had been informed by Karisik that Pandurevic had arranged passage for

9 the Muslims over that territory."

10 The president, who do you take that to mean?

11 A. The president would be President Radovan Karadzic.

12 Q. And Karisik who is that?

13 A. I believe, if I'm correct in remembering, he is head of the RDB.

14 Q. What's that mean?

15 A. The Republika Srpska State Security Service, sorry.

16 Q. All right. And then the Main Staff person says, we can read for

17 ourselves about what he's saying about communication and that he's

18 waiting, waiting for them to call because Pandurevic hasn't called for

19 the last hour so we see that Pandurevic is a bit out of touch. And then

20 there is this note about both fighters and civilians. Then he says:

21 "I spoke to Krsto down there, he's saying that it's going well

22 but he didn't say how far they got but he says it's going well."

23 What, in your view, if we have the Main Staff duty officer

24 telling this to General Mladic, who do you believe he means when he's

25 saying Krsto?

Page 16406

1 A. Again in this context, it would be General Krstic, the commander

2 of the Drina Corps, and who now is also obviously engaged in military

3 operations against the Zepa enclave.

4 Q. And so when he says he didn't know how far they got, what's he

5 mean by that?

6 A. Again they are advancing towards Zepa and again the reflection

7 that he doesn't know how far down a particular axis of advance or what

8 it -- how far his troops had gotten at a certain point of time.

9 Q. And there is a comment:

10 "According to Maric, yes, it's solved."

11 Is there a Maric you're familiar with?

12 A. Yes, sir. Again I believe there is a General Maric who is the

13 chief of air and air defence forces for the VRS at this time.

14 Q. Do you have any idea what was solved?

15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Okay. Then it talks about captured equipment at four UN

17 check-points down in Zepa. And has there been information about that

18 independent of this intercept?

19 A. Yes, sir, there has.

20 Q. From what -- roughly, what source of documents did you read that?

21 A. I believe there is a notation of this in documents related to

22 the -- from the Drina Corps talking about the -- either the

23 Rogatica Brigade or the Drina Corps talking about the capture of these

24 vehicles.

25 Q. Then we see:

Page 16407

1 "Good, there were no other major problems. Up on Majevica there

2 was something but that's been solved."

3 Majevica, do you know where that is, whose -- what corps's zone

4 that's in?

5 A. I believe that's East Bosnia Corps, sir.

6 Q. All right. And so what do you take this -- these comments of the

7 duty officer to General Mladic to be? Just ...

8 A. Within the context of what is happening with the column, nor --

9 as it would be a normal military practice, the duty officer is briefing

10 the commander on the events on the ground and noting the fact that at

11 that point in time, here is their understanding of the situation and

12 further noting that nobody has heard anything from Colonel Pandurevic

13 directly yet.

14 Q. And if General Mladic was in Belgrade receiving this information

15 and saying whatever he said, would that, in your view, be an exercise of

16 command by General Mladic?

17 A. Yes, sir. As a commander, whether he's physically on the ground

18 or not in a certain location, he's going to want to be kept fully abreast

19 of the relevant military situation.

20 Q. All right. Let's go to P1513. It's a -- from the command of the

21 Zvornik Brigade, 16 July now, another interim combat report from

22 Vinko Pandurevic that we can see if we look at the Serbian version. And

23 this is now, we can see, talking about the battle I think that you've

24 mentioned on the 16th, he refers to it as a synchronised kamikaze attack

25 on the 4th Battalion position. Using their numerical advantage they

Page 16408

1 surrounded the 4th Battalion. Counting soldiers and civilians, armed and

2 unarmed, altogether 7.000.

3 7.000, can you make anything of that number?

4 A. Again, that is Colonel Pandurevic's assessment of the column.

5 I again -- the actual -- I've never done specific research with respect

6 to the total number of people who came out from the column on the other

7 side. As I've explained earlier, it wasn't pertinent to why I needed to

8 research the column.

9 Q. All right. Then it goes on to note that there were examples of

10 jumping on tanks and self-propelled guns, that by throwing themselves

11 they captured three 76 millimetre self-propelled guns and seized

12 trenches, and basically overran those positions; is that right?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Okay. And then it goes on under paragraph 2 to say:

15 "We sustained dozens of wounded, about ten dead and five

16 missing."

17 We can see also the rest of that with supplies and evacuating

18 wounded. And then in paragraph 3 he says:

19 "In view of the great pressure on the brigade's area of

20 responsibility, the losses sustained, the inability of the surrounded

21 forces to hold out for long, the abandonment of the Zvornik PBR command

22 to deal as best it could with the Srebrenica Turks and served it right

23 when it was the brigade that forced them out of Srebrenica into its own

24 area."

25 What do you take that to mean, just briefly, that comment he's

Page 16409

1 saying that it served them right? I think he's speaking about his own

2 forces, isn't he?

3 A. Yes, sir. Colonel Pandurevic and two battle groups from the

4 Zvornik Brigade did in fact participate in the operations to eliminate

5 the Srebrenica safe area.

6 Q. "Coupled with an absolute determination of the Turks to save

7 some -- to save at least some lives," it goes on, "in order to prevent

8 losses in our own ranks, I have decided in view of the situation to open

9 a corridor along the line of the three lost trenches for the civilian

10 population, about 7.000 of them ..."

11 So he's now saying of the 7 -- about 5.000 of them, excuse me.

12 So he's saying of the 7.000, 5.000 of them are civilians.

13 "I have agreed on a method of evacuation with the enemy and this

14 is now going forward. I have requested the release of captured policemen

15 on my own missing soldiers -- and my own missing soldiers."

16 So is this the reference to the opening of the corridor that

17 you've talked about?

18 A. Yes, sir.

19 Q. Is there any indication that Pandurevic received an order to do

20 that or even authorisation from his superiors to do that?

21 A. No, sir.

22 Q. All right. He goes on on the next page in English:

23 "This procedure is in progress and I think it will succeed. It

24 is likely that a certain number of soldiers got out among the civilians

25 but all who passed, passed through unarmed."

Page 16410

1 What do you make of that comment?

2 A. I suspect that comment is actually a tad self-serving, by

3 Colonel Pandurevic, in order to protect himself from criticism. Clearly,

4 those soldiers who were able to break through did so with their weapons.

5 They were not disarmed by anybody.

6 Q. All right. Let's go to the next document, and this is an

7 intercept that we will try to get through this, P1350. And you can see,

8 Mr. Butler, from your hard copy, this is a 2116 hours intercept,

9 Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, Rasic, Popovic has asked to be connected to

10 General Krstic at Zlatar. Is this an intercept that you know to be from

11 the 16th of July?

12 A. Yes, sir.

13 Q. And I just want to take you down to the middle of the page, we

14 can see that -- that he, Popovic says that:

15 "I was with the boss personally."

16 Who do you think he's referring to here?

17 A. Colonel Pandurevic, sir.

18 Q. Okay. Is that connected to what you've talked to about before,

19 Popovic being sent over there?

20 A. Yes, sir.

21 Q. And then he mentions: "Well, you got his interim report," and

22 was that the report we just looked at, P1513?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. And then Popovic says:

25 "It's all just like he wrote, I was there on the spot, and saw

Page 16411

1 for myself he had received some numbers. Well, that's not even

2 important. I'll come there tomorrow so tell the general I've finished

3 the job."

4 What in your view is he talking about here?

5 A. I've testified to this line before and, again, with the exception

6 of the last phrase, Colonel Popovic is talking about the situation with

7 respect to his discussion with Colonel Pandurevic. His last phrase

8 "I finished the job," it is my view that in that context, Colonel Popovic

9 is informing the people at the Drina Corps headquarters that he's

10 finished his particular job which would be, at that point in time,

11 completed the execution of the prisoners up in the Pilica area.

12 Q. So in the first part of that he's saying, "it's just like he

13 wrote, he had received some numbers," which numbers do you think he's

14 talking about?

15 A. I take it at this juncture that he's talking about the numbers

16 with respect to the size of the column.

17 Q. All right. And then Rasic goes on to confirm: "You finished."

18 Popovic: "I finished everything." "Good." Popovic says: "I'll come

19 there tomorrow when I'm sure that it's all been taken care of, you know."

20 Rasic: "Good." "After I bring a transport from here." "Right." Then

21 Popovic says: "Well, in general there weren't any major problems. But

22 up there, there were horrible problems. And that thing the commander

23 sent, it was just right."

24 When he says "up there, there were horrible problems," what do

25 you think he's referring to?

Page 16412

1 A. He is referring in this particular context, "up there" meaning

2 the area close to Baljkovica, since it's actually a geographical rise

3 from Zvornik, being in the valley, towards Baljkovica, which is being up

4 the valley. So he's using this as a reference, "up there" meaning where

5 the battle was being fought at Baljkovica.

6 Q. All right. And now, let's -- so then he goes on to say, Popovic

7 says: "Just the thing. Horrible, it was horrible."

8 What's that a reference to, in your view?

9 A. Again I've testified before, and I still believe it to be the

10 case that in this juncture he's talking about his role in the executions.

11 Q. And let's look at the next page, page --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, it also reads: "That thing the

13 commander sent, it was just the right thing."

14 What do you understand to be the thing that was sent which was

15 the right thing?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Earlier that day, the Drina Corps made

17 arrangements to send another company-sized unit that they had cobbled

18 together from the Bratunac area to reinforce the forces in the

19 Zvornik Brigade area.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Troops?

21 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY:

24 Q. Then let's go to page 2, and Mr. Butler, can you briefly explain

25 to us the -- was that your initial analysis of this intercept back in the

Page 16413

1 Krstic days or have you changed it when we look at this? Let us finish

2 it up when -- we see that the next question is: Did anything arrive from

3 Vidoje Blagojevic? And that would be from where?

4 A. That would be the Bratunac Brigade, sir.

5 Q. And Popovic says: "You mean manpower."

6 "Yes, yes."

7 "Yes, it arrived but it didn't arrive on time, and it wasn't

8 brought in on time and the others who arrived did arrive but they were

9 late and so they weren't brought in on time and that's why the commander

10 who was there had problems."

11 And then it says: "When exactly did Blagojevic's men arrived?"

12 "Fuck it, I don't know exactly."

13 "I know."

14 And then they go down. The question is asked again about

15 Blagojevic's men, and someone, the -- D says he'll call right back about

16 that.

17 What was your -- I mean the Court has heard evidence that men

18 from Bratunac, is the way it's described, arrived at the Pilica farm

19 after the 10th Sabotage had already been working. What was your first

20 analysis of this and did you change it and why?

21 A. Yes, sir. My initial analysis of this intercept in the Krstic

22 case reflected that I believed that when they talked about the issue with

23 respect to first the men coming up, the boss sent them and it was right

24 for the job, we did have knowledge of the fact that men from Bratunac

25 were sent to Pilica and did participate in the executions of at least

Page 16414

1 some of the people at Branjevo, and I testified to that in the Krstic

2 case.

3 Subsequently, as the investigation is continued, obviously,

4 through time, new information came to my attention in the form of other

5 documents as well as explanations from VRS officers that we were able to

6 interview, and they explained that, no, in particular, these people were

7 soldiers from another unit, the Bratunac Brigade, and they were sent for

8 military purpose. Again, when I make my analysis of this broader body of

9 information and I've done over the years, my analysis is based on the

10 documents and the context as I understand it at the time. I'm not locked

11 into any position for any reason. If I receive new information that

12 would challenge one of my earlier conclusions or reflect the fact that

13 I painted the context erroneously and that there is another

14 interpretation of it, if it's correct I will adopt it.

15 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- we are still on the 16th.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go very briefly to P1147, it's

17 V0009267.

18 Q. It's a video you have seen so I just want to remind us briefly of

19 a few seconds of it. And if I've got it right, it should be Mladic at

20 the VMA on the 16th, in uniform, speaking on the telephone.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that should be at 44 -- sorry, 49229.

22 [Video-clip played]

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for whatever reason we don't --

24 [Video-clip played]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: No transcript has been

Page 16415

1 provided to us.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Please, interpreters, this is the -- this is the

3 Srebrenica trial video and I believe we've decided we don't need

4 over-translation with the subtitles.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Unless there would be any challenge to the

6 subtitles. Okay. It will be played again.

7 [Video-clip played]

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I think we can stop it there at

9 49572.

10 And if we could now just go to the transcript of that, it's

11 e-court page 94 in English and it should be e-court page 90 in the

12 Serbian, which should be the transcript of the little blurb we saw.

13 I think we were able to read the subtitles about the reference to

14 Legenda.

15 Q. And what I wanted to ask you about, Mr. Butler, starts where when

16 Mladic, as we note, in the English, speaking into the telephone:

17 "Well, then you should send Gojko, have him come over tonight and

18 send two more cars."

19 In your time, did you know the name of Mladic's driver?

20 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have in English what we see in B/C/S? I don't

21 think so. It looks like a transcript of one of the Hotel Fontana

22 meetings, perhaps.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, you're absolutely correct.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the right page in --

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: It should be e-court page 90. I'm sorry, it's 94

Page 16416

1 in English and 90 in the B/C/S, thank you, which I had stated.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now we have the correct pages. Please

3 proceed.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.

5 Q. We see where it starts with Mladic speaking on the telephone.

6 Did you, in your time, ever learn the name of one of Mladic's drivers?

7 A. In my time here with the Tribunal, no, but I do understand that

8 the investigation has identified one of his drivers as an individual

9 named Gojko.

10 Q. Okay.

11 "Have him come over tonight and sent two more cars, two more

12 cars, and have him report here tonight. I am not going while they are in

13 the air."

14 Do you have an opinion on what that could mean? Or does mean?

15 This reference to "I am not going while they are in the air"? Do we know

16 of anybody in the air on this -- this would be the 16th of July?

17 A. Yes, sir, in fact, NATO military aircraft are active over the

18 Zepa enclave on this day.

19 Q. All right. And then as it goes down he makes a reference:

20 "Okay, here is what we'll do. How about at the stadium at

21 Legenda's place."

22 Now, Legenda, is that Milan Jolovic of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. Yes, sir, that is his nickname.

24 Q. And then it says:

25 "Great. You don't have to send a car for me, I'll get there.

Page 16417

1 Here you send two cars, have them report to tomorrow."

2 And then it says who to report to and talks about Milan Lesic,

3 which I'm sure the Defence will agree is one of the Canadian Serbs that

4 was there at the VMA. All right.

5 And then he says, down farther:

6 "Fine, let him do it, no need, there is no need. He has to bear

7 in mind, just send him a telegram that I will see them there, right, so

8 they don't hit me, let them pound the NATO."

9 What do you take that to mean?

10 A. Again, it's a cryptic thing but understanding that the RS may --

11 the air-on-air defence forces may engage NATO aircraft, he certainly

12 doesn't want to get targeted inadvertently by his own air defence forces.

13 Q. And this line, "and what about from Vinko's," who do you take

14 Vinko to be in this context?

15 A. Vinko Pandurevic, the commander of the Zvornik Brigade.

16 Q. Then he says:

17 "Very well, full steam ahead, maximum security, and don't wait

18 for the orders. As soon as they show up in the air, shoot them down.

19 You don't care if they are Turkish or others. Is it possible they are

20 from the Turkey, comment, they were hitting from high altitude, whatever,

21 shoot them down at high altitude, doesn't matter where they crash as long

22 as they crash. All right, bro, cheers, we will be in touch."

23 And then Mladic states:

24 "NATO struck, NATO struck."

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I guess we need to -- thank you, we

Page 16418

1 need to go to the next page in e-court for the English.

2 Q. "There are no killed or wounded there at Zepa, let's go."

3 And did that assist in your evaluation that this could be

4 referring to the NATO air over Zepa?

5 A. All this and other military documents that reflect that as well.

6 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next document. I have it as

7 65 ter 04126. And this is a regular combat report from the Drina Corps

8 in the name of General Krstic. And just looking at the front page --

9 well, if we look at the rear page it's got a time stamp of 1937 and 2010

10 so if -- it's the evening as it should be. Just looking at that first

11 page in English, down right about the last paragraph of the first -- of

12 number 1, it says:

13 "According to reports submitted by subordinate units, there are

14 around 300 armed -- 3.000 armed soldiers and civilian in Pandurica,

15 Planinci, Crni Vrh, Glodjansko Brdo sector."

16 Is that the Zvornik Brigade sector?

17 A. Yes, sir.

18 Q. Okay. And then it says:

19 "NATO bombed the Zepa sector and according to initial reports

20 there was no damage or casualties."

21 Now, is this information consistent with what we just heard

22 Mladic saying, first over the telephone to someone, and then to the group

23 of people -- then another statement a group of people in front of him

24 there?

25 A. Yes, sir, it is.

Page 16419

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this into evidence.

2 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04126 receives number P2128,

5 Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have 65 ter 21039C?

8 Q. And we can see this is at 2126 hours, which was just a few

9 minutes after that 2116 hours conversation which was P1350, where they

10 kept asking Popovic to find out when the other forces showed up. And so

11 we can see here that there is a small note from the intercept operators.

12 And do you know this to be the 16th of July as well?

13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. And Colonel Cerovic was informed that at 2100, 30 men came from

15 Badem from Blagojevic. And then at 1705, 30 men came from Dobus [phoen]

16 and 100 men came from Banja Luka. Was this one of the intercepts to help

17 change your conclusion that the men from -- from Blagojevic could not

18 have been the men that came to Pilica?

19 A. Yes, sir, this was one of the pieces of information as well as

20 other information that came to my attention.

21 Q. According to this, they would have arrived at 1705 in the

22 afternoon, and is that -- does that fit with the account of when the

23 people from Bratunac showed up at Pilica?

24 A. No, sir, it does not.

25 Q. Okay. Now, what I wanted to ask you about, mainly, here, is

Page 16420

1 it -- it also has a short reference that General Mladic asked through

2 Colonel Cerovic, and so that would have been through what -- where would

3 Colonel Cerovic have been in your view here?

4 A. At this point in time he would be at the headquarters of the

5 Drina Corps in Vlasenica.

6 Q. And he asked what had happened to the three self-propelled guns,

7 and at 2135 the duty officer informed him that the guns were on the

8 Serbian side. These three self-propelled guns, do you connect them in

9 any way with the three self-propelled guns that we saw Pandurevic say

10 were taken from him on the 16th?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. So what does that indicate to you about the kind of information

13 General Mladic is getting regarding these events that are occurring on

14 the ground?

15 A. As one might expect under the circumstances, he is keeping well

16 informed of what's going on.

17 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I'm sorry, that needs to be offered into

19 evidence.

20 MR. IVETIC: Same objection to the intercepts, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Same objection. Any further --

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. This is part of the

23 collection we have a document with a P number that reflects this --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Same objection, same response.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: A simple way, yes.

Page 16421

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a number for this

2 intercept so that be MFI'd.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 21039C receives number P2129,

4 Your Honours.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Is marked for identification. Please proceed.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just for your information, that same intercept is

7 in evidence at P1352 but a different version, and all these versions need

8 to be fit together and it's important to have them, in our view. But

9 I leave it at that and go on to the next one.

10 JUDGE ORIE: At least it's hereby on the record that the two can

11 be linked. Please proceed.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. P1667, please.

13 Q. We are at 16 July still. This is a morning intercept, got a bit

14 off our chronology. And it's between X and Y, and it says, in pertinent

15 part for us, until 2030 --

16 Y says: "Until 2030."

17 X says: "Yes."

18 Y says: "All right."

19 X says: "CER signal."

20 Y says: "CER signal."

21 Have you learned what CER signal means?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. What do you believe it means?

24 A. My understanding, again from looking at various documents with

25 respect to communication protocols, is that at this point in time the

Page 16422

1 signal CER is to reflect a weapons-type posture with respect to air

2 defence weapons, which means that they are not authorised to shoot at

3 aerial targets for a certain time. And I believe there is a subsequent

4 document where, in fact, in the duty officer logbook it actually

5 identifies what CER is.

6 Q. Okay. Let's go to that again. P1501, page 91 in the English,

7 page 90 in the Serbian. And we see here that the duty officer has

8 written in the book at 2020 hours, the signal CER was sent from Zlatar.

9 It says:

10 "I.e., it's forbidden to shoot at aerial targets until

11 2200 hours, all units informed about that."

12 And would that include a helicopter coming from Serbia landing at

13 some site in Zvornik?

14 A. Well, in the broadest sense, you do these things to avoid a

15 situation where your own air defence forces inadvertently launch an

16 attack on friendly aircraft. So I mean that that you've mentioned, that

17 scenario would qualify as to why you would want to have a signal in place

18 so that friendly forces don't fire on friendly aircraft by accident,

19 especially at night.

20 Q. And just below that, we see:

21 Message from Zlatar that a parcel set off from Badem half an hour

22 ago, and it was reported at 2015 hours.

23 In this context, what do you take a parcel to mean?

24 A. At this particular context, I am not aware of additional

25 prisoners being moved from Bratunac, so I take this to be additional

Page 16423

1 soldiers or troops being moved up to the Zvornik Brigade area.

2 Q. Okay. Let's go to another document, P01579. And the

3 Trial Chamber has seen this document but I'd like it if we could get your

4 brief take on the two different parts of it. We see that it's a 17 July

5 document in the name of General Mladic.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And -- Mr. President, we've asked that a revised

7 translation be uploaded into e-court because this one did not have the SR

8 on it, so -- which the original did, so our revised one has that and it's

9 doc ID 05257985-ET.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And you want this to replace the translation which

11 is present in e-court?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any, as usual, improved or corrected translations

14 can be revisited by the other party within 48 hours, but at this time,

15 has it been uploaded, Madam Registrar, so that you can replace it?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I'm unable to locate the

17 translation in e-court.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do the following. The original is with SR

19 after the name of Mr. Mladic, whereas the translation is not. Therefore,

20 we can work on it but it has to be replaced.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We think it might be findable if you put a dash,

22 0525-79 -- sorry, 0425-7985. I probably misspoke.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, does that resolve the problem?

24 THE REGISTRAR: With number 4, yes, it's there. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And the revised translation may replace the one

Page 16424

1 which was in e-court until now.

2 Madam Registrar, would you please do that. And let's proceed.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

4 Q. Mr. Butler, this document that Mladic -- under Mladic's name, we

5 see these first two paragraphs, he says to send these three officers from

6 the Main Staff, the command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, and to assist in

7 joining the VRS and MUP forces in the planning and coordination of combat

8 operations to block, crush and destroy lagging Muslim forces in the wider

9 area of Kamenica and Cerska; number 2, the team from the VRS shall assess

10 the situation on the brigade's front and in the rear, the available

11 forces, and hear out the proposal and opinion of the commander of the

12 1st Zvornik Brigade and then they are to draw up a plan together, comb

13 the terrain, crush and destroy the groups in the wider area of Kamenica.

14 Just summarised briefly there.

15 In your view and analysis and what you know, is this -- is this

16 really what this is about or what does this mean?

17 A. No, sir. I am aware that the actual purpose of these officers

18 going up to the Zvornik Brigade is to determine the circumstances

19 surrounding why Colonel Pandurevic allowed the column to pass through.

20 Q. Okay. And paragraph 3, we see a discussion or a -- the order

21 talking about a 17 July and it lists various forces in this area that we

22 are all familiar with now in the Bratunac area, to discover and destroy

23 Muslim groups, and were there Muslim groups in that area on this date, as

24 far as you know?

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 16425

1 Q. And General Mladic says:

2 "I hereby appoint Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic, the officer for

3 the military police in the Main Staff security administration as the

4 commander of all the aforementioned forces to conduct the aforementioned

5 task."

6 Now -- and then he's supposed to get back by the 19th of July

7 with a proposal.

8 Were you aware who was in command of those forces on the

9 16th of July?

10 A. Yes, sir, Colonel Blagojevic was in command of those forces on

11 the 16th of July.

12 Q. And just briefly, how do you know that?

13 A. On the 16th of July, 1995, there is a Bratunac Brigade daily

14 combat report where the duty officer reflects that Colonel Blagojevic was

15 visiting those various units and directing their tasks. The day previous

16 to that a Drina Corps officer, Colonel Milanovic, I believe is his name,

17 had made those proposals that given the chaotic situation on the road and

18 the fact that you had units from the military police, the civilian police

19 and the Bratunac Brigade as well as the 5th Engineers engaged, that they

20 should appoint one individual and he recommended the Bratunac Brigade

21 commander to take control of all of the activities in order to ensure

22 that the military actions against that part of the column were fully

23 synchronised.

24 Q. All right. On 17 July, do you know where Colonel Blagojevic was?

25 A. Yes, sir. He -- on the 17th, he received orders to lead

Page 16426

1 additional troops from the Bratunac Brigade to Zepa in order to in part

2 make up for the forces that Colonel Pandurevic had left with, so when he

3 departed the brigade area with those forces or at the head of those

4 forces, he was no longer available to take command of the operations

5 there. It was because Colonel Blagojevic was leaving that the Main Staff

6 felt that they had to appoint another officer in order to fulfil the task

7 and ensure that the military operations were properly synchronised.

8 Q. So who, in your view, was the -- in command of those forces on

9 17 July after Blagojevic left?

10 A. It would be Lieutenant-Colonel Keserovic, sir.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm looking at the clock.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Is it break time?

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's break time.

14 MR. McCLOSKEY: By all means.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We will take a break. Could the witness be escorted

16 out of the courtroom.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to

19 2.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the -- could Mr. Mladic

23 keep his volume low.

24 Waiting for the witness. I come back to the code names for

25 Panorama and Palma and Badem and Zlatar. It's a nice example of how time

Page 16427

1 is wasted. It is proposed as an adjudicated fact.

2 [The witness takes the stand]

3 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence objected to it to be -- to be

4 acknowledged of it being taken judicial notice of, although they do

5 agree, apparently, they said it's notorious, and then we start hearing

6 evidence on that. Both parties are not doing what they are supposed to

7 do, that is to look at facts as facts and not at why the fact is

8 presented for establishing criminal responsibility. Of course, that's

9 what the Prosecution is supposed to do, to select facts to do that. Then

10 object to it, therefore, if the facts in themselves are not in dispute

11 seems to be a waste of time. And then to present evidence again on it

12 seems to be a waste of time as well.

13 It is a clear example of how we could do better, all of us, in

14 this courtroom.

15 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Butler, we are at 17 July, and are you aware of a series of

18 intercepts with Colonel Popovic where he is intercepted reporting back

19 about the various -- or about the job that he's doing over the

20 17th of July?

21 A. Yes, sir, I am.

22 Q. And can you just give us a very brief overview of what you

23 believe he is doing and we won't go, indeed, to those intercepts

24 individually, they are already into evidence and there maybe some

25 adjudicated facts in there but I don't think so.

Page 16428

1 A. On the 17th of July, as various documents indicate, the engineer

2 equipment of the Zvornik Brigade is being engaged in continuing to bury

3 bodies with respect to those killed at not only Rocevic, Kozluk, but also

4 in Pilica.

5 Q. How do you know?

6 A. The engineer logbook for the Zvornik Brigade actually notes on

7 day by day where engineer equipment is and in fact it corresponds to

8 known grave sites.

9 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I interrupted.

10 A. Colonel Popovic is still up at -- in these locations,

11 particularly Pilica, to ensure that that activity is completed. There

12 are a series of intercepts, obviously, where people are talking back and

13 forth either wanting to talk to Colonel Popovic or I believe in one case

14 basically saying: Don't worry you don't need to come to the

15 headquarters, stay up there until the job is done.

16 Q. And at one point does he report back and give the job he's doing

17 a particular grade?

18 A. Yes, sir, he notes that the job was done to a grade A.

19 Q. And that was the burial job?

20 A. Yes, sir, that it's completed.

21 Q. All right. Let's go to P1499. This is a document I think you'd

22 asked for earlier. It's the 18th July interim combat report from

23 Vinko Pandurevic, where he talks about the losses from some of the time

24 period that we have been talking about and some other time periods.

25 Let's go to page 2 in the English, it should be B/C/S page 4.

Page 16429

1 And looking down at the bottom of the English page, we see

2 Pandurevic saying:

3 "During the last 10 days or so, the municipality of Zvornik has

4 been swamped with Srebrenica Turks. It is inconceivable to me that

5 someone brought in 3.000 Turks of military age and placed them in schools

6 in the municipality, in addition to the 7.000 or so who have fled into

7 the forest."

8 What do you take of this? Is this something that you were

9 referencing earlier?

10 A. Yes, sir. Again, going back, Colonel Pandurevic obviously

11 understood the real purpose of why this commission of three officers was

12 visiting Zvornik. And what this interim combat report is, when you look

13 at it in its totality, is Colonel Pandurevic's written defence on many

14 issues pertaining to his ability and competence to command and why he's

15 made the decisions that he has. In this particular paragraph, he's

16 noting two different groups of Muslims who were in the Zvornik

17 municipality. I guess if you look at the next line or the next page in

18 English where he talks about creating an extremely complex situation,

19 he's correct. He distinguishes between the 7.000 individuals that he

20 attributes to being part of the column, he also distinguishes between the

21 3.000 who are in the schools in his municipality as being separate from

22 those in the column.

23 Q. These 3.000 in the schools he's referencing, do you believe, is

24 that in any way related to the people he referenced in his 15 July

25 interim combat report when he said the additional burden on us is -- are

Page 16430

1 the Muslims in schools throughout the zone of responsibility?

2 A. Yes, sir, exactly.

3 Q. And as far as you know, were any of the Muslims held in the

4 schools, did any of them escape execution?

5 A. I believe that the investigation has borne out that four of the

6 Muslims held in the school at Orahovac escaped execution, two from

7 Petkovci, there were none that I'm aware of from Rocevic, and the total

8 of seven from Branjevo although four were later recaptured and are now

9 subsequently missing.

10 Q. And that's the subject matter of some of your narrative, is it

11 not?

12 A. Yes, sir, in my narrative report, chapter 8 deals with the issues

13 of individuals who by documentary evidence can be identified in the

14 custody of the VRS at some point during July of 1995 and who are now

15 correspondingly missing. In the -- I believe a year later, I produced an

16 addendum, when additional documentary evidence became available that

17 identified additional individuals.

18 Q. And can you tell us, of the four people that you know from the

19 documents that escaped from Branjevo Farm but then were recaptured by the

20 Zvornik Brigade, how were they used, if you recall, from the documents?

21 A. Yes, sir. The documents that I reference in that part of my

22 analysis, these four individuals sought shelter at the home of a group of

23 Serbs. They were taken in. They were essentially given food and water.

24 They left the home, moved out in a different direction and were later

25 captured by Bosnian Serb forces. Statements were taken from those

Page 16431

1 individuals, and ultimately their statements that were taken from them

2 were used to -- used to initiate criminal charges against the two

3 individuals who were Bosnian Serb soldiers who had given them aid.

4 Q. And those four Muslims that were used as witnesses, have they

5 been seen or heard from since July 1995?

6 A. When I included that information in my narrative, the last

7 information that I had on them is that they were on the ICRC missing

8 list. I've not heard any information since then that reflects that they

9 may have been identified.

10 Q. All right.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, could I ask one question?

12 Witness, in -- on page, the second page of this document in

13 English, and I read from there:

14 "It is inconceivable to me that someone brought in 3.000 Turks of

15 military age and placed them in schools in the municipality, in addition

16 to the 7.000 or so who have fled into the forests."

17 Now, how do you understand this to be inconceivable? Is it that

18 someone has been so irresponsible for having detained 3.000 persons in

19 schools or is it inconceivable that it happened or that the 3.000 were in

20 addition to? What is in your view exactly inconceivable here, or how is

21 it meant?

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go back one page in the English?

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's under number 4, last few lines.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. To answer your question, what I believe

Page 16432

1 that Colonel Pandurevic is, of course, now complaining about is that the

2 decision was made to bring them to the schools to the Zvornik Brigade.

3 Obviously, his criticism comes in hindsight of what happened. As I've

4 testified previously, the VRS did not have a clear picture to the size of

5 the column or the military threat to Zvornik when this decision was made

6 to essentially start moving these prisoners to schools in the Zvornik

7 municipality. In fact, they thought it was a good idea at the time

8 because these schools were located far from the front lines, in remote

9 areas, and would be an ideal place to do that. Obviously, in retrospect,

10 with the column emerging as the threat that it was, it turned out to be a

11 very poor idea with respect to what happened in Zvornik during the

12 subsequent days.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So it's inconceivable that someone took this odd

14 decision or that this line was taken, is that how to interpret it?

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I mean, again he's -- after the fact

16 he's complaining about the thought process of the decision.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I see that, but the inconceivable could

18 relate to many parts of these observations, about numbers or whatever,

19 but it is about the decision-making process.

20 THE WITNESS: That is my view, sir, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY:

23 Q. Mr. Butler, let's now go to 65 ter 4312. This is a 22 July

24 document, another interim combat report from Vinko Pandurevic to the

25 Drina Corps, and we can see that it's talking about engaging enemy groups

Page 16433

1 along Planinci-Perunika-Brezik village line. Ten enemy soldiers were

2 liquidated, armed mostly with weapons, automatic weapons, while 23 Muslim

3 soldiers were captured.

4 Just -- are there still, in your view, hundreds of Muslims in

5 these woods around Zvornik along the path of the column and the other

6 area?

7 A. Yes, sir. Once the 24-hour window for the column is expired and

8 Colonel Pandurevic closes and resecures his lines, there are still

9 hundreds of men, Bosnian Muslim men, soldiers, who are now still trapped

10 in Bosnian Serb military territory. And as both police and military

11 documents reflect, on the day of the 17th and the 18th, correspondingly

12 through even into August, various military units are involved in sweeping

13 the terrain in order to police all of these individuals up. Some are

14 captured, some are killed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you whether the word "liquidated" here,

16 whether you understand that to be killed in a combat context?

17 THE WITNESS: At this particular time, I don't know that I could

18 make that kind of distinction because, as I believe the Court is aware,

19 from the results of the investigation, there were many cases where

20 prisoners were taken immediately resulting from the combat and killed so

21 it's just it's impossible to distinguish at this time. I would generally

22 give it the more benign interpretation of their talking about legitimate

23 combat operations but I'm aware that there is again information to the

24 contrary.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

Page 16434

1 MR. McCLOSKEY:

2 Q. In that regard, Mr. Butler, are you aware of a survivor of an

3 execution near Nezuk?

4 A. Yes, sir, I am.

5 Q. And are you aware of a survivor of an execution near Snagovo,

6 around this time period?

7 A. I believe I'm also familiar with the Snagovo investigation.

8 I think that parts of that occurred after I left.

9 Q. Okay. Now, does it make any sense from a military perspective,

10 with Muslim -- armed Muslims, some of which would have automatic weapons,

11 in the woods, does it make any sense on the time period of the

12 14th of July, after -- at the time executions began in Orahovac, through

13 the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, up until even the 22nd here, does it

14 make any sense militarily, during this very intense time that you've

15 described, for the Zvornik Brigade's or the VRS to enlist any resources

16 into going out into these woods and these battle areas to identify fallen

17 Muslim soldiers and bring them back and put them in big unidentified

18 graves?

19 A. No, sir, not this early. I mean obviously at some point, fallen

20 bodies on the battlefield, where they have fallen, close to or near

21 Bosnian Serb military positions, would be policed up because of the

22 health and biological hazard that they represent. But as evidenced by

23 the larger body of information, there are still active combat operations

24 that are occurring in these areas on these dates, so the retrieval or

25 burial of dead enemy casualties would not be as high a priority, for

Page 16435

1 example, as continuing to sweep the terrain for the purpose of

2 liquidating armed enemy groups that are still operating behind the lines.

3 Q. Liquidating meaning killing in combat?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Then number 3:

6 "We request from the corps command that the exchange commission

7 start work as soon as possible. We also require instructions as to what

8 to do with the prisoners, where to put them, and whom we should hand them

9 over."

10 What's this "we also require instructions as to what to do with

11 prisoners"? Vinko Pandurevic not know what to do with prisoners? What

12 do you take of this?

13 A. Yes, sir. I mean, as the evidence has indicated and the military

14 documents have indicated, Colonel Pandurevic, at least by 15 July 1995,

15 is aware of thousands of prisoners in the zone of the Zvornik Infantry

16 Brigade. He is also aware that his units are engaged against the column

17 and clearly would also understand that prisoners are being taken by

18 Bosnian Serb military forces, by those fighting forces. He acknowledges

19 on the 18th, 3.000 prisoners were in the custody of the Zvornik Brigade

20 with respect to the schools that they are in. Only now on the 22nd of

21 July, for the first time is there a reflection that there might be a

22 change in the guidance from higher headquarters and we are not instantly

23 killing prisoners as we encounter them anymore, and Colonel Pandurevic is

24 asking, What would you like me to do with these prisoners that we are

25 still taking?

Page 16436

1 Q. All right.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.

3 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 04312 receives number P2130,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY:

9 Q. And, Mr. Butler, are you aware of a series of intercepts

10 beginning August 1st and going into August 2nd, sometimes involving

11 Popovic, sometimes involving Krstic, sometimes involving Beara, and

12 relating to Muslim men that have fled across the Drina at about that time

13 period?

14 A. Yes, sir, I am.

15 Q. Without going into each of those individually, can you just tell

16 us what those intercepts told you? They are all in evidence.

17 A. Yes, sir. At that time, Bosnian Muslims from the Zepa enclave,

18 many of them sought refuge in Serbia, and for whatever reason, the

19 Serbian political and police authorities made a decision not to

20 immediately turn those people back over to the custody of the Army of the

21 Republika Srpska. The intercepts that are talked about and that

22 Mr. McCloskey just referenced reflect the dissatisfaction of high-ranking

23 individuals from the Drina Corps and the Main Staff to those decisions.

24 Q. And just in the end, those men from Zepa that, roughly how many,

25 as far as the intercepts count, was, if you recall?

Page 16437

1 A. I don't recall the number at this juncture.

2 Q. And do you know eventually what happened to them? Were they

3 given back to RS or what?

4 A. No, sir. My understanding is that the ICRC in Serbia was given

5 access to those prisoners and they were in fact registered. They were

6 not turned over to the custody of the Republika Srpska.

7 Q. All right. Let's now go briefly to P1500. This is a document

8 that the Trial Chamber has seen before. It's dated September 14th in the

9 name of General Mladic, and we see SR next to it in the Serbian, and it's

10 approving five tonnes of diesel fuel for engineering works in the zone of

11 responsibility of the Drina Corps to be delivered to the Standard

12 barracks in Zvornik to Captain Milorad Trpic.

13 What do you think this is about and who is Trpic?

14 A. In fact it is Captain Milorad Trbic who is the deputy chief of

15 security for the Zvornik Infantry Brigade in September 1995.

16 Q. And so why in your view would that much fuel be given to a

17 captain of the security organ, of a brigade?

18 A. Sir, as the investigation has borne out, at approximately this

19 time, the VRS begin to undertake a campaign of surreptitiously exhuming

20 the primary mass graves that the international community had identified

21 back in August and engaged in a campaign of disposing of the human

22 remains from those primary mass graves into a series of secondary graves

23 in more remote locations in the Zvornik municipality.

24 Q. Does this reference on the bottom, keeping track of the engine

25 work hours of the engineering machines, what kind of engineering machines

Page 16438

1 do you think this is a reference to?

2 A. This would be the bulldozers and backhoes and trucks and other

3 things that would be required in order make this happen.

4 Q. All right. Let's go to 65 ter 4033. We see again that familiar

5 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska logistics sector now, dated --

6 also dated 14 September. And it's to the attention of the command of the

7 35th Logistics Base, the Drina Corps, for information, and the

8 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade for information. And it says pursuant to

9 the order of the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

10 Srpska, immediately issue the following quantity of fuel to the

11 Drina Corps, and it is 5.000 litres. And it mentions that it should be

12 used for engineering works in the Drina Corps area, and then it's in

13 accordance with confidential document of the Main Staff number 0342341,

14 and for our record we can see that that was the strictly confidential

15 number of the previous document, P1500.

16 So can you relate these two documents together?

17 A. Yes, sir, I do.

18 Q. All right. Now, let's go to 65 ter --

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. Thank you. Can we offer that into

20 evidence?

21 MR. IVETIC: No objection.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P2131, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could I ask one

25 question in relation to the diesel required, 5.000 litres. Do you have

Page 16439

1 any impression of what the normal consumption and the normal level of

2 engineering works would be for these units so as to make this being

3 specifically linked to the -- bodies being transferred from primary

4 graves to secondary graves? I mean, how exceptional is it and how close

5 is the link? Because I can imagine that for other engineering works, you

6 might need diesel as well.

7 THE WITNESS: I absolutely agree, and my position on that is that

8 if, in fact, these were normal engineering works the fuel would have been

9 issued through the normal course of operations and would have been issued

10 under the authority of perhaps Major Jokic, the engineer company

11 commander. The fact that it is General Mladic issuing an order and

12 putting a security officer in charge of the fuel disbursement for these

13 engineering projects, again coupled with the actual knowledge of what is

14 happening on the ground at the time, General Mladic doesn't normally get

15 into the details of fuel disbursement. And certainly fuel being

16 disbursed to a security officer versus a technical services officer or

17 somebody else is a bit different.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Yes. I asked for a number but I have

19 not yet decided, the Chamber has not decided on admission. P2131 is

20 admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY:

22 Q. And, Mr. Butler, on that -- on His Honour's point, you have

23 talked about -- we haven't shown you in this case any engineering

24 records, but the various engineering records that you've referred to and

25 that you have in your narrative related to the activity from, roughly, 14

Page 16440

1 July through 17, 18, 19 July, do you recall, are there any -- these are

2 the engineering records. Do you recall are there any such engineering

3 records, normal records, that indicate anything that could be connected

4 to the reburial operation?

5 A. That is one of the interesting components when one looks at the

6 vehicle records that we seized, the daily operating records. One of the

7 interesting aspects of what happens in July of 1995 is that the vehicle

8 operators, many of them who are tangentially engaged in the commission of

9 crimes, are in fact dutifully noting down the miles that the vehicles are

10 being driven, the hours that the vehicles are in operation, how much fuel

11 is being used, because they are still following their normal procedures

12 despite the fact that sometimes they are actually noting down evidence of

13 a crime. When you get to August and September, with those same

14 engineering vehicle logs, you don't see those same notations. You see a

15 much different pattern where you understand that the fuel is being

16 consumed but it is not being reported along the same traditional way,

17 when you look at the vehicle utilisation logs.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And then mainly locations not being mentioned.

19 THE WITNESS: Not only are locations not being mentioned but in

20 the individual vehicle log, clearly the hours that the vehicles are

21 stated to be operative do not correspond with the activity that is known

22 through other sources to be occurring.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: And so could go to -- oh, I should -- did I offer

25 that into evidence? I did. Okay. Could we go to 65 ter 6148?

Page 16441

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, unnecessary to say that you used

2 9 hours and 55 minutes until now.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, and I had two binders which

4 I'm at the end of. I had another binder with material that I was hoping

5 to get to in a very limited way, that I believe is important. If you can

6 see, it's in your discretion, to give me an hour on Monday morning,

7 I promise I won't go one minute past 60.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You know that one minute is 60 seconds. No, no,

9 just for accuracy purposes.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, lawyers -- it's a good question to ask a

11 lawyer, but, yes, I try to forget that fact.

12 MR. IVETIC: And, Your Honour, we don't object.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You do not object.

14 Yes, you will have 3600 seconds left on Monday morning,

15 Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Butler, we see here a document from the RS Ministry of

18 Defence and it's referencing some material, and it's providing a list of

19 persons exchanged at the end of 1995 from the Batkovic collection centre.

20 And then if we could go to 061 -- it's actually, I'm sorry, if we go to

21 page 2 of the document, and this -- is this a document that you've cited

22 to in your narrative?

23 A. Yes, sir.

24 Q. Can you tell us how this -- how this fits into the narrative?

25 A. Again, as part of my look at trying to determine not necessarily

Page 16442

1 the fates of individuals but certainly to be able to catalogue evidence

2 that the Republika Srpska, in general, and the Army of the

3 Republika Srpska specifically had custody of various individuals and how

4 many individuals that they did actually document as having custody of,

5 this was one factor that I considered, which was a list of individuals

6 that ultimately were exchanged from the VRS's detention facility in

7 Batkovica.

8 Q. And from this list, can you -- I mean, we can see, if we -- well,

9 if you've got good eyesight or you can blow it up, we see Srebrenica

10 indications arriving at Batkovic on the 18th of July. And do you know

11 from the investigation any particular Muslims that would have arrived on

12 the 18th?

13 A. Yes, sir, I believe some -- there is a document with respect to

14 individuals being moved from Bratunac under the escort of the Drina Corps

15 military police, I believe they depart on the 18th of July, 1995. It may

16 be as early as the 17th when they depart but they are escorted up.

17 Q. All right. And if we look at this list, we can see the dates

18 that go up into July and the total number appears to be 171. Just

19 roughly, if you know, how many of Srebrenica people roughly were --

20 actually ended up going, being sent to Batkovic in those days, 23,

21 24 July and onward?

22 A. I believe the number probably corresponds to roughly about 150,

23 maybe 200 at the outside. And that would be not only from Zvornik, that

24 would be from Bratunac and other areas where they would have been

25 captured.