Page 17625
1 Monday, 30 September 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
6 courtroom.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before the Prosecution is invited and before we go into closed
12 session to hear the testimony of Witness RM070, it is on special request
13 that you first read the summary, Ms. Marcus. You have an opportunity to
14 do so.
15 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.
16 RM070 is a woman in her late 40s from Foca municipality. She
17 will testify that in the first week of July of 1992, uniformed and
18 heavily armed Serb soldiers detained more than 30 Muslim civilians in the
19 woods, including women, children, and elderly, in a village in Foca
20 municipality. She will testify that the Serb soldiers swore at the
21 civilians using ethnic slurs, and that shortly thereafter, the Serb
22 soldiers shot and killed first three, and later seven more, of these
23 Muslim civilians. The accused has been charged with these killings in
24 indictment Schedule A2.1.
25 RM070 will testify that the Serb soldiers then lined up the
Page 17626
1 detainees, separated the women from the men, and that the women and at
2 least one man were taken to Buk Bijela, where they were interrogated and
3 subjected to both sexual and non-sexual torture. The accused has been
4 charged with crimes committed in the detention centre at Buk Bijela in
5 indictment Schedule C6.3.
6 RM070 will then testify that numerous women and girls who were
7 among the detainees were then taken to the Foca high school,
8 Srednja Skola, where they were detained by Serb soldiers yet again. The
9 witness will describe the daily and relentless pattern of rape and other
10 forms of sexual and non-sexual torture to which the women and girls were
11 subjected by Serb soldiers during their detention in the high school.
12 The accused has been charged with crimes committed in the Foca high
13 school in indictment Schedule C6.5.
14 RM070 will testify that the women and girls were then transferred
15 to the Partizan sports hall where they were enslaved and subjected to a
16 daily pattern of humiliation, verbal assaults and threats, and violent
17 acts of sexual violence. The accused has been charged with crimes
18 committed in the Partizan detention centre in indictment Schedule C6.4.
19 RM070 will finally testify that the Serb soldiers transferred the
20 Muslim women and girls from Partizan to a house near Miljevina known as
21 Karaman's house. Here, the Serb soldiers continued to subject the
22 detainees to enslavement, verbal abuse and threats, rape, including
23 frequent gang-rapes and sexual slavery. The accused has been charged
24 with crimes committed in Karaman's house in indictment Schedule C6.2.
25 That concludes the public summary, Your Honours.
Page 17627
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Marcus. The witness will testify
3 with protective measures being face distortion, voice distortion, and
4 pseudonym. Therefore in order to hear the testimony of the witness, we
5 first have to move into closed session.
6 [Closed session]
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
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17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Witness RM070, before you give evidence, the Rules require that
21 you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you by the
22 usher. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: RM070
Page 17628
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Witness RM070.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness RM070, you'll first be examined by
5 Ms. Marcus. I take it that you know her already. You find Ms. Marcus to
6 your right.
7 Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.
8 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Examination by Ms. Marcus:
10 Q. Good morning.
11 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up
12 65 ter 30311 - this is the witness's pseudonym sheet - but not broadcast
13 it.
14 Q. RM070, when the document appears on the screen in front of you,
15 I'd like you to -- I'm sorry, I'm just waiting for the document.
16 Yes. Could you please confirm without saying your name that that
17 is your name?
18 A. I don't have that anywhere.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could the usher assist.
20 MS. MARCUS:
21 Q. Is that your name which appears on the page in front of you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And can you confirm that that is your date of birth?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'd like to tender 65 ter 30311 into
Page 17629
1 evidence under seal, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30311 receives number P2421,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted under seal.
6 MS. MARCUS:
7 Q. RM070, do you recall giving a statement to the ICTY on the 15th
8 to the 18th of November of 1995?
9 A. Yes, I do. I did.
10 MS. MARCUS: I would ask that 65 ter 30309 be placed on the
11 monitor but not broadcast.
12 Q. Is this the statement that you see in front of you that you gave
13 to the ICTY?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. MARCUS: Could we turn to the bottom of this page, please.
16 Q. RM070, would you please look at the signature on the bottom of
17 this page. Do you recognise this as your signature?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Did you have an opportunity before testifying today to review a
20 translation of this statement in your own language?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. If you were asked the same questions today as you were asked when
23 you provided this statement, would you provide the same answers, in
24 substance?
25 A. Well, yes, I think so. It was a long time ago. However, I
Page 17630
1 believe that my answers would still be the same.
2 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
3 accuracy and truthfulness of this statement?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 MS. MARCUS: I tender this document, 30309, into evidence, under
6 seal, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It is admitted under seal.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30309 receives number P2422,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. When I said admitted, the
11 document was admitted, although I had not yet heard the number.
12 Apologies for that.
13 MS. MARCUS:
14 Q. RM070, you testified previously in a case before --
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. MARCUS: One second.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is admitted under seal. When I said
18 admitted, of course, I meant admitted under seal. But it is already the
19 first time I said under seal. But let's proceed.
20 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. RM070, you have testified previously in a case before this
22 Tribunal; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. And have you had the opportunity to review a segment of that
25 prior testimony in preparation for your testimony today?
Page 17631
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you were asked the same questions you were asked when you
3 provided that testimony, would you provide the same answers, in
4 substance?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now that you have taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
7 accuracy and truthfulness of that testimony?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I would like to tender the selection
10 of pages from the witness's prior testimony into evidence, please. That
11 is 30310, under seal, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, you asked about one segment, isn't it?
13 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. This was the segment that was in
14 the 92 ter application. I'm trying to avoid giving page numbers or
15 identifying the case --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see that. But the sequence is -- it seems to
17 be two segments rather than one.
18 MS. MARCUS: Yes, I'm sorry. It's not a contiguous -- it's not
19 one contiguous segment. I apologise.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that is clear to the witness and the witness
21 has listened to it.
22 You had a opportunity to listen to two portions of your previous
23 testimony? Did you have a opportunity to listen to that previous
24 testimony, audio, listening, or did you read it or ...
25 MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, just perhaps the witness might be
Page 17632
1 confused because since it was just a short segment we had a language
2 assistant translate it to her.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Which is, for us, a bit uncommon.
4 So I do understand that you sat together with someone who read it
5 in your language and then you confirmed that this was your truthful
6 testimony at the time; is that right --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to
9 the excerpt of the transcript would be ...
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30310 receives number P2423,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence, under seal.
13 MS. MARCUS: Could I please have private session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
15 Witness, we now move into private session which means that not
16 only no one will see you, not only -- no one will hear your own voice but
17 even whatever you say is not to be made public.
18 [Private session]
19 (redacted)
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Page 17633
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Page 17641
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22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MS. MARCUS:
Page 17642
1 Q. RM070, you describe Buk Bijela in your statement in paragraph 27
2 as a construction site for a proposed hydro-electric power plant. Can
3 you tell us, if you know, what was this facility to the armed forces who
4 captured you at the time of your detention? What purpose did Buk Bijela
5 have to the Serb soldiers at the time you were detained there?
6 A. They used it to torture and rape Muslim women whom they had
7 captured.
8 Q. You say in paragraph 38 that on your way from Buk Bijela to the
9 Foca high school in the bus, the bus stopped in front of the SUP.
10 Were there police or soldiers at the SUP?
11 A. There were both police officers and soldiers.
12 Q. I'm now going to ask you a few clarifications regarding the
13 detention in Foca high school.
14 You say in paragraph 41 that two policemen guarded the entrance
15 to the school day and night. Did you come to understand whether there
16 was a superior/subordinate relationship between the police guards and the
17 Serb soldiers who came and took out women and girls each night for sexual
18 violence?
19 A. I didn't see that. But when the soldiers came to the secondary
20 school to take out women, nobody dared oppose them.
21 Once, police officer Dragan Zelenovic opposed the soldiers, but
22 he -- the soldier punched him with his fist so hard that nobody else
23 dared to oppose them.
24 Q. When the Serb soldiers took you and other women and girls out of
25 the Foca high school in the evening to the Brena apartments, did they try
Page 17643
1 to avoid anyone seeing them? Did they do this in a secretive manner?
2 A. No.
3 Q. You describe in paragraphs 59 to 62 that while you were detained
4 in the Foca high school, some TV cameras came to film you and the other
5 detainees. Did you come to know why they were filming you? Why did they
6 come to that detention centre to film you?
7 A. Well, you know, it was like this: They put me up at the
8 secondary school, and we got three meals a day, and we had those sponges
9 on which we slept. And then a man came and told us that television would
10 come and film to show how they were protecting us and how they had saved
11 us. And then I asked myself, From whom have they saved me? How I was
12 attacked so that I needed saving?
13 And when Belgrade TV arrived and TV S from Pale I was sitting in
14 a corner of the room. I never once took a look to see who had entered
15 and came to record. How could I say that they had saved me and protected
16 me when I was being raped by a dozen or two dozen of them every night?
17 They were lying shamelessly. They killed my mother and my brother. They
18 killed everything in me. And now I was supposed to say that Mitar Sipcic
19 saved me. I thought he was a human being. That's what I thought. I had
20 known him from before because he worked at the infirmary at Brod as
21 medical staff. So I never saw who had come and who recorded. But I know
22 what they wanted. Their objective was propaganda to show how they were
23 humane, that they had saved us and that they were protecting us. From
24 whom?
25 Q. Would you like to take a little break?
Page 17644
1 A. It's all right. We can go on.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you a few questions now about Partizan. Can you
3 tell the Court how far Partizan is from the centre of Foca town.
4 A. It's not far. If we take the square as the centre of Foca, then
5 it's no further than 200 metres.
6 MS. MARCUS: Could the Court Officer please call up 65 ter 11159C
7 which is a photograph from Foca.
8 For the Court Usher's information, I will be asking her to make a
9 few marks on here, so maybe they could assist her.
10 Q. RM070, there are already some numbers on this photograph. Can
11 you identify what each of these numbers represent, please. Let's start
12 with number 1.
13 A. Number 1 is -- oh, sorry, I must have done something wrong ...
14 Q. You won't need to mark numbers 1, 2, 3, or 4. You may need to
15 mark something after that.
16 A. Okay. Number 1 is the Partizan gym; number 2 is the SUP; 3, I
17 can't really tell now. This may be the municipality building. Across
18 the road from the SUP, there were also women locked up and I heard
19 screams from there every night. A number of women were locked up there
20 and raped. And number 4 is the Zelengora hotel. Next to that hotel
21 there is another house where I was also detained by Serbian soldiers.
22 It's across the road from the textile factory.
23 Q. So at the location you said:
24 "Next to that hotel there is another house where I was also
25 detained by Serbian soldiers."
Page 17645
1 Could you mark that with the number 5, please.
2 A. I can mark it, but I'm not certain that it will be the very
3 house. I think that it's this house here, where the arrow is.
4 Q. Please mark it with a 5. Right on the screen. You can write on
5 the screen.
6 A. Number 5 is here.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The marking doesn't work at the moment.
8 MS. MARCUS:
9 Q. Was there any other location on this photograph that you wanted
10 to indicate for the Court?
11 If not, we can just continue. It's no problem.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can describe it for the transcript.
13 The witness pointed at a house which is found immediately below
14 4, but not large construction, but the one with the red roof immediately
15 right to that large construction.
16 Please proceed.
17 MS. MARCUS: I tender this photo into evidence, please. That's
18 65 ter 11159C.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 MS. MARCUS: I don't think it needs to be under seal, sorry.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 11159C receives number P2426,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
24 Ms. Marcus, we're close to the moment where we usually take a
25 break.
Page 17646
1 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. I have perhaps about ten more
2 minutes after the break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll first take that break.
4 RM070, we first go into closed session, then you can leave the
5 courtroom. We take a break of approximately 20 minutes, and after the
6 break, you'll be further examined by Ms. Marcus for another ten minutes
7 approximately, and then you'll be cross-examined by counsel for the
8 Defence.
9 We turn into closed session.
10 [Closed session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
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24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
Page 17647
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Ms. Marcus, you may proceed.
3 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. RM070, you describe in your statement at paragraph 90 being
5 detained at Karaman's house. In your evidence, you mention a
6 12-year-old girl named Almira Bektovic. Was she also sexually assaulted?
7 A. Yes, she was.
8 Q. Was she the youngest?
9 A. Yes, she was.
10 Q. Do you know what happened to her afterwards?
11 A. No, I don't. She's missing.
12 Q. In paragraph 102, you say:
13 "That night Klamfa negotiated with Dragan Stankovic about the
14 sale of Almira. I heard that Klamfa sold Almira to Stankovic for
15 200 Deutschemarks."
16 Is this Almira Bektovic you were referring to?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Can you briefly describe the circumstances of this so-called sale
19 of Almira ?
20 (redacted)
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Page 17648
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24 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
25 [Private session]
Page 17650
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15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 MS. MARCUS:
19 Q. RM070, I just have a few more questions for you.
20 In paragraph 98 of your statement, you say that you were "forced
21 to make the sign of the cross."
22 Can you tell us about this incident, please, if possible in
23 brief.
24 A. That was in Miljevina after I had already spent three months in
25 that house. That was on the 13th [as interpreted] of October, I believe,
Page 17651
1 in 1992. Janko Janjic, Dragan Zelenovic, Gojko Jankovic and somebody
2 else came to the Karaman house where Pero Elez kept us. Pero told me in
3 the morning that four of us had to go to Foca. Milorad Cicmil also came.
4 I believe that he was a teacher in a school somewhere, as far as I could
5 hear from others. They lined us up. There were eight of us girls. They
6 sat us done and then he asked our names. Obviously we gave him Serbian
7 names. And then he asked us whether we had learned how to make the sign
8 of the cross. Since I was the first sitting down in that line, I didn't
9 know the difference between the three fingers and the whole hand. I
10 started making the sign of the cross with the whole hand. And all of a
11 sudden he jumped up and he shouted at me, Do you want me to cut your hand
12 off? You don't use your whole hand but only three fingers. And I said,
13 I apologise, sir. I did not know. I did not attend the proper course,
14 so I don't know.
15 That's how they took the four of us and took us to Foca.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, may I ask you for one clarification.
17 You said it was on the certain day in October in 1992. Can you
18 repeat the day.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 30th of October, I believe it
20 was.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that from the
23 2nd of August, 1992, to the 30th of October, 1992, we were kept in that
24 house. All in all, three month, I believe.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that.
Page 17652
1 Ms. Marcus.
2 MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. One more clarification on your answer there.
4 Who was it who instructed you about crossing yourself? Could you
5 repeat the name, please.
6 A. What did I say? Cicmil or Cicmal, Milorad.
7 Q. That's fine. RM070, this may be a difficult question to ask but
8 it's nearly my last one.
9 Did you ever come to learn whether there was any reason that you
10 and the other women and girls were being so badly mistreated? What was
11 the goal of this mistreatment, if any?
12 A. My opinion was that they wanted to destroy, kill, destroy our
13 spirit as much as they could, because a raped woman -- there's no cure
14 for a woman who was raped.
15 I will not recover. I cannot recover, ever. I'm trying. I'm
16 trying very hard.
17 My life was destroyed. My family was destroyed. The dearest to
18 me were killed. All that I had in life, they took my happiness. I was a
19 happy person. You -- one could not describe the level of my happiness.
20 That's how I felt.
21 But not all the Serbs are the same. Because if there were --
22 there hadn't been for some Serb, I wouldn't be sitting here today.
23 Because there are some good people among the Serbs, but they couldn't do
24 anything. They didn't dare.
25 Q. RM070, is there anything else that you would like the Chamber to
Page 17653
1 know, other than what you've told them in your statement or in your
2 testimony so far?
3 A. What -- what I have come here to say and what I have said so far,
4 so many innocent victims. There are so many. And perhaps this is my way
5 of finding comfort, finding solace. So far I've always felt as if I owed
6 something to somebody because I'm alive. My brother is dead. My mother
7 is dead. My uncle, my aunt, their children, they're all dead. And I'm
8 alive. And so many people are dead. I've always felt dead towards them
9 because I'm alive. I still feel that I owe them. This is the feeling
10 that I have: That I owe them because I'm here. I have this feeling of
11 guilt. I feel guilted. And that's why I had to come here to tell you
12 the truth. Because all of all of those innocent victims who were killed.
13 Because they were not guilty. They were innocent.
14 My brother had just come back from the army in March, and four
15 months later he was killed. He had returned from the Yugoslav army. We
16 were proud of him. We were proud of the Yugoslav army. They brought
17 cannons and tanks to Foca. The whole city was shaking with the sound of
18 cannons and tanks, and we didn't know what they were up to. We didn't
19 know why they were all coming our way. We didn't know what the purpose
20 was.
21 All that was predesigned. All that had been agreed in advance.
22 It had been agreed in advance that Muslims had to be killed and
23 destroyed.
24 Our neighbours, Serbs, would be happy if we returned, if we lived
25 with them, because these people say that once we left, everything's gone.
Page 17654
1 They don't have anything. They're poor. I -- I feel sorry for them when
2 I see how they live and how retched they are.
3 Q. RM070, thank you so much for answering all my questions.
4 MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I have no more questions for the
5 witness. I just wanted to ask the Chamber for leave to make one bar
6 table submission at the -- at the end, when the witness has been excused.
7 Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Stojanovic is aware of the bar table
9 admission you intend --
10 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Witness RM070, you will now be
12 cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
13 Mr. Mladic.
14 Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. We'll
16 try to make it as short as possible. We will probably not use all the
17 time that we asked for, and in view of the answers we have provided -- I
18 supposed that you probably understand that.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Madam, good morning.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. I will have just a few questions for you. I don't want to remind
23 you unnecessarily of those awful events, and I need to tell you that I'm
24 sorry for everything that you had been through. But let's try and see if
25 we can go through the document that we received earlier this morning.
Page 17655
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
2 call up the document whose number I don't know but I believe that it has
3 been marked for identification as a P document. And I'm talking about
4 the list that the Prosecutor showed earlier this morning, the names of
5 the people that the witness mentioned in her testimony.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is P2424.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Under seal.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The
9 document is under seal. It is P2424.
10 Q. Let's just briefly go through the document, please, madam.
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23 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
24 [Private session]
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Page 17669
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Page 17670
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Page 17671
1 (redacted)
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7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. We left it off at the moment when I asked you about the exchange.
15 Please tell the Trial Chamber, according to what you remember, why is it
16 that that exchange did not take place in July 1992?
17 A. I don't know whether it was really planned in the first place. I
18 have my doubts about that. Again, it was propaganda. Nothing more.
19 Both those soldiers in Cajnice as well as those in Foca were involved in
20 the same propaganda because they did bring us there. They forced the
21 villagers who were there to bring us food. They gave us cheese and
22 cream. They forced us to eat a lot. We spent a night in a small school
23 and then the next day they transferred us to a bigger school in Cajnice,
24 all that allegedly awaiting for that exchange to take place.
25 However, all that happened was that a TV crew came. I don't know
Page 17672
1 from which TV channel. Again, they wanted to brag how kind and
2 considerate they were, how helpful, and how they took care of us, and the
3 TV crew recorded all that. But, again, I'm telling, I never spoke to any
4 one of them.
5 Q. In substance, did they tell you that the exchange did not go
6 through because the opposing side in Gorazde did not accept the terms of
7 exchange?
8 A. They said that they did not want us and that there would be no
9 exchange for that reason. Because our own people didn't want us.
10 Q. And now I will finish with my last question: One of the Serb
11 soldiers told you at one point in time that he would help you and that he
12 would take you away from Foca. Please don't mention any names. Just
13 confirm whether that is correct or not.
14 A. Yes, it is correct. And I am grateful to him until the day I
15 die.
16 Q. Also, a neighbour of yours got involved in that journey, and he
17 was the one who actually transferred you towards Bileca and Gacko and
18 then on to Niksic; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And now into those two Serb soldiers you managed to get to what
21 was then known as Titograd and today is known under the name Podgorica;
22 right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know whether after the war and after the implementation of
25 property laws the villagers of your village got back their property?
Page 17673
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know that there are Bosniaks still residing in your
3 village who survived all those events that happened in July 1992?
4 A. Only one man lives there. But he was never there before. He was
5 not actually there during the war. He worked in Trebinje, in the
6 military kitchen, and then he went to Montenegro, and there he spent the
7 entire war. So he was not in the village during the war.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not activated.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I do not know whether it's Freudian
11 that your microphone was not activated, but you announced the last
12 question. We are a few questions further now.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I meant the
14 area, the last area, not last question. I have just one other sentence
15 to add.
16 Q. Please, can you tell me whether you still have contacts with the
17 Serbs who helped you at the time?
18 A. Yes, with one. Not with the other.
19 Q. Thank you, madam, once again. And on behalf of your -- of our
20 client, I would like to apologise to you if I had caused you pain with
21 any of my questions or if I have reminded you of those difficult and
22 tragic events. And, once again, please accept my sympathy for everything
23 that you had to go through. We apologise.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, any need for re-examination.
25 MS. MARCUS: No, Your Honour. I have no questions. Just that I
Page 17674
1 would like to tender into evidence P2424 marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's the chart.
3 MS. MARCUS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you've asked a few questions about
5 the chart. Does the objection stand?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. I had the
7 opportunity to ask the necessary questions. We will continue to -- with
8 our research into the names mentioned here.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I say something about those
10 names?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Not at this moment preferably. If there is any --
12 they are there, and the Defence has the possibility to verify the
13 information you provided in the chart.
14 Then P2424 is admitted into evidence, under seal.
15 Witness RM070, the parties have no further questions for you.
16 The Chamber has no further questions for you. If what you wanted to say
17 about these names is your concern about having been mentioned, you can
18 discuss that with the Victims and Witness Section after this hearing, and
19 if there's anything of relevance, then the Victims and Witness Section
20 will take the appropriate action.
21 The Chamber would like to thank you very much for coming to
22 The Hague, for having answered all the questions that were put to you by
23 the parties and by the Bench. And the Chamber is fully aware what it
24 takes to go to re-visit all these events you told us about and that even
25 strengthens the thanks by this Tribunal that you have come forward and
Page 17675
1 you have testified in this case.
2 For you, in order to allow to you leave the courtroom with the
3 protective measures, we first turn into closed session.
4 [Closed session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Ms. Marcus, while the furniture is removed, the -- you had one
19 bar table document.
20 MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 I would like to tendered 65 ter 2374A from the bar table in
22 connection with the testimony of this witness. The Defence told me
23 before court that they have no objection to this. What I would like to
24 ask is that it be MFI'd for now. This is a small segment of one of the
25 RS assembly sessions. And now, as Your Honours know, the Defence and the
Page 17676
1 Prosecution are in the process of trying to agree upon which segments we
2 would propose be admitted and Your Honours ultimately have to decide, so
3 I would say that if this -- if more of this session comes in, it should
4 all be under the same exhibit number.
5 So I request a temporary exhibit number be -- be assigned to it.
6 That's 2374A.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's pending the possibility of joining with
8 other parts of the same session.
9 Madam Registrar, 65 ter 2374A receives number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Number P2427, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
12 Is the Prosecution ready to continue -- oh, no. It's not the
13 Prosecution. It's -- Mr. Hogan was being cross-examined.
14 Therefore, is the Defence ready to continue its cross-examination
15 of Mr. Hogan?
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Hogan may be escorted into the courtroom.
18 If you make a little bit more time, Mr. Usher, than usual,
19 meanwhile, I read a decision. I'll deliver the following decision but we
20 have to do it in private session, I see.
21 So, therefore, could we briefly move into private session.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 17677
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Page 17678
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19 (redacted)
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 The witness may be escorted into the courtroom.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 17679
1 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I was just going to say that on Friday at
2 transcript page 17611 Your Honour posed a question regarding P2380 which
3 was the map with mount Trebevic on it about whether the elevations were
4 included in those calculations. The witness was unable to answer but I
5 can provide information to the Chamber, if the Chamber wishes, from
6 the -- that I received from the mapping unit that could answer that
7 question.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we first wait until we have finished.
10 Just to complete the record, the Chamber has just been in
11 private session to deliver its decision granting the Prosecution's
12 25th of January, 2013, motion to add three documents to its exhibit list.
13 Mr. Hogan, welcome back in court.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you're still bound by the
16 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
17 WITNESS: BARRY HOGAN [Resumed]
18 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Lukic will now continue his
19 cross-examination.
20 Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
23 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hogan. Here we go again.
24 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Lukic.
25 Q. We broke off while dealing with this document, and since it was
Page 17680
1 last week I will ask for it to be displayed again, 65 ter --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please repeat the number.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the number, Mr. Lukic.
4 MR. LUKIC: It is 19792, and we need page 42 from this document.
5 I have this page under a different number. Maybe we should --
6 give me one second.
7 We'll try to locate the correct number of the page. I'll
8 continue. But ...
9 Q. [Interpretation] You remember the photograph with the rocky
10 ground. It's related to the VP 6 incident. That is, from observation
11 point number 6.
12 MR. LUKIC: Can we have page number 52 because I'm -- I was
13 informed that I was right. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember if the city of Sarajevo is on
15 the left, as we're looking at this photograph?
16 A. Yes, that's correct. It's towards the left of the camera, from
17 the cameraman.
18 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that if a mortar would to be
19 placed here, it would be possible to target it from Muslim positions?
20 A. I'm sorry, if a mortar was to be placed on that road where the
21 camera was located, it would be possible to target it from Muslim
22 positions. Is that --
23 Q. [In English] Yes that is the question.
24 A. I'm not an expert, but it would just seem logical that if a
25 weapon is firing in one direction and then another weapon could fire in
Page 17681
1 the other direction, yes, I agree.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: But, Mr. Lukic, shouldn't we be seeing the road
3 from which -- the one you are talking about, rather than this rocky
4 incline?
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it correct that we see a little part of the
6 road on the --
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes. The bottom part.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Bottom part of the left corner of the picture.
9 Is that correct, Mr. Hogan?
10 THE WITNESS: That is correct, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I establish that on my right screen looking e-court
12 that especially -- exactly that part of the picture is missing in the
13 left bottom corner, but we all apparently see that is visible a tiny
14 little bit of what seems to be a road.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. My question was actually if this position would, in
18 such a case, be visible from the Muslim positions, the Muslim army
19 positions.
20 A. I don't recall, but I believe if we look at the -- either the
21 photograph prior to this one or the photograph after this one, we should
22 have a view to the left in the direction of the city. So we would be
23 able to see what the view would be like.
24 MR. LUKIC: I cannot -- we cannot locate that picture. In a
25 moment, maybe we might come back.
Page 17682
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: At what page are we now at this moment, Mr. --
4 MR. LUKIC: Now we are at page 52.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Fifty-two. I have a look nearby. Please proceed,
6 meanwhile.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You checked the road at this position. Did you find any traces
9 of a mortar being dug in; and, if so, did you make a note of it?
10 A. I didn't see any -- any signs of anything being dug in at this
11 location, no.
12 Q. Did you see traces of digging in a mortar at some other location
13 that you visited; and, if so, did you make a note of it?
14 A. I didn't see any traces of anything being dug in at any
15 locations, except for the normal farm work at the first location, the
16 first two locations I stopped in.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, would e-court page 47 of this document
19 assist you?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's the road where I was parked and -- and
21 up to the right is that rocky slope. And I think he can see off in the
22 distance to the left, would be part of the city, is visible.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Let me now ask you about firing position 10. You have already
25 spoken about it.
Page 17683
1 Do you remember -- let us take a look at the first page of this
2 document. It's the page with the table which we saw briefly when the
3 document was first displayed.
4 Firing position 10 is marked as a position, the elevation of
5 which is 1219 metres, and that would be the highest point of all that
6 you -- that you visited. Can you see it?
7 A. I do see it, yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now get 65 ter 1D1297 from the
9 Defence list.
10 Q. Here, in the centre of the photograph -- or, rather, in the
11 centre horizontally but in the upper part, can you see a TV tower; and,
12 if so, could you please circle it.
13 A. Certainly.
14 Q. Thank you. WP 10, do you remember that the -- that point is to
15 the right of this TV tower? It's actually the first promontory to the
16 right.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, before we ask any further questions, what
18 are we looking at at this moment? Which direction are we looking? Is
19 that mount Trebevic at the end, is it another mountain?
20 MR. LUKIC: This is mountain Trebevic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least that's how you present it although we
22 are not received any -- but you say this is a look at mount Trebevic.
23 MR. LUKIC: From the -- the picture was taken from Grdonj.
24 JUDGE ORIE: From Grdonj. That is more or less the direction
25 south/north. No, no, I'm making a mistake. North/south.
Page 17684
1 We all -- we have seen in evidence there are a few maps where
2 Grdonj is indicated, and we know that where mount Trebevic is, so I think
3 I made a mistake. It is from north to south, approximately.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Can you spot WP 10 in this photograph and is it the first summit
8 to the right of the TV tower?
9 A. No, I can't spot way-point 10 in this photograph. Perhaps if I
10 had that satellite image that we were looking at last week it might help
11 me to orient myself to this photograph.
12 MS. HOCHHAUSER: If it assists, I have the hard copies of the
13 witness -- was in possession of last week of that and the index.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Lukic wants to use them, he certainly will
15 appreciate your assistance, Ms. Hochhauser.
16 MR. LUKIC: It's -- at least I have marked it as 65 ter 10441.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But, first, you should tender this, if you are
18 interested in it, because you will lose the markings.
19 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. Maybe I can ask another question before we
20 leave this picture.
21 Q. Sir, you told us on Friday that you know where OP-1 was; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you mark OP-1 on this picture.
24 A. I have to first orient myself with Colina Kapa, if you would
25 just bear with me.
Page 17685
1 Q. Yeah, I would like to ask you to mark Colina Kapa as well, if you
2 can.
3 A. I would draw the outline of what I believe to be Colina Kapa.
4 And I think OP-1 was in this area somewhere. It's a little bit
5 difficult -- it's -- because this is not a three-dimensional photograph,
6 it is a little bit difficult to be sure that that's exactly where
7 Colina Kapa was but it's in the same -- general direction.
8 Q. I agree with you where Colina Kapa is. Only, according to the
9 marking I have, OP-1 was more to the left.
10 A. I'm sorry, that's my best estimate.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The parties could try to agree later on on the basis
12 of maps where OP-1 is situated and to see then whether they agree that
13 this is the right or perhaps not an accurate marking by the witness.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Can we have this marked -- marked photo admitted in
16 evidence.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would appreciate if the witness could put OP-1
18 next to the second circle, to avoid any --
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- misunderstanding.
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
22 JUDGE ORIE: And the bended line is the Colina Kapa.
23 Madam Registrar -- well, I think it is only one banded line,
24 Mr. Lukic.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1297 as marked by the witness receives
Page 17686
1 number D375, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You were unable to locate way-point 10 in this photograph. But
5 do you remember from your stay in the field that from way-point 10 there
6 was a line of sight toward way-point 1; in other words, there were no
7 obstacles between the two?
8 A. I don't recall that, no.
9 Q. Would you agree with me that the distance from this point, OP-10,
10 is some 2500 [as interpreted] metres from the Markale market, if we drew
11 a straight line from it or if we look at the satellite image and we -- if
12 we go by the straight line rather than follow the road?
13 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Sorry to interrupt.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Hochhauser.
15 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I have two just points of clarification. One is
16 when it says "OP-10" which is the -- where the witness said he was not
17 able to locate, I don't know if Mr. Lukic meant way-point 10.
18 MR. LUKIC: WP 10. Yes, WP 10.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Way-point 10, we have the co-ordinates on the map,
20 is there. They are given by the witness. And the second clarification
21 you were seeking.
22 MS. HOCHHAUSER: The other was when talking now about distances
23 using this satellite image, I wonder if the Court would like the
24 information about the elevation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because, Mr. Lukic, you know that we have two
Page 17687
1 types of distances. The one is projected in a flat area as we find it on
2 a map, and the other one, in which we include the inclination which makes
3 the line longer than it looks on the map.
4 Ms. Hochhauser, you have inquired into how the distance was
5 measured in this picture.
6 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Yes. I inquired with the mapping unit who
7 actually made the map, and I was told that the elevations are not
8 calculated in order to establish the distances between two points on this
9 map.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which means that the actual distance is longer
11 than what is shown on the map on the scale available. Because the -- I
12 always remember that it was called the hypotenuse is longer than the
13 basis of a rectangular triangle.
14 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Common sense would agree with you but I -- I
15 have not inquired any further than what I just relayed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you asked about distance. What distance
17 did you have in mind?
18 MR. LUKIC: And I see that it's wrongly -- maybe I misspoke but
19 it says "2500." I wanted to ask more than 3500 and the distance I have
20 is 3686 metres.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But again what is the distance? Is that the
22 projection of the --
23 MR. LUKIC: On the map.
24 JUDGE ORIE: On the map.
25 MR. LUKIC: On the map.
Page 17688
1 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that actually it would be more.
2 MR. LUKIC: It would be more.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Witness, can you tell us anything about whether the real distance
5 which would be more than 3800, and forgive me, Mr. Lukic, but 76, or was
6 it -- yeah, 86, whether that is it the -- whether that's the distance
7 between that way-point and the Markale market.
8 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I did not measure it. But I would not
9 dispute it. If it had been measured it sounds reasonable.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Markale market, you're talking about
11 Markale II, I take it, that covered not the open market but the covered
12 market.
13 MR. LUKIC: The covered marked.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One second, please.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: When I said 3800, of course I had to say 3600. I
17 was misspeaking.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember that way-point 10 was a dominant
20 point from which you could actually observe Sarajevo?
21 A. I think that way-point 10 was -- had a view towards the west so I
22 don't think you could see the main part of the city but the very far
23 western part towards Igman. I believe that we could see a view of that.
24 MS. HOCHHAUSER: I'm sorry to interrupt again. But might I
25 provide the witness with the satellite image so that he -- as he
Page 17689
1 indicated it would be helpful --
2 MR. LUKIC: Of course.
3 MS. HOCHHAUSER: -- to him to answer the questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Leave is granted. Could the usher assist.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see that way-point 10 does have a view to
6 the east -- or, sorry, to the west. So I think we looked at some of
7 those photos last week and compared them to one of the Defence photos.
8 MR. LUKIC: Can we see page 95 from the same document so maybe we
9 can see more. 95.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you want to refer to the number --
11 series of photographs, the approximately 100 with the table on the first
12 page.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: 65 ter, I think we have it on the screen,
16 65 ter 19792.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have on the screen at this moment a
18 picture which was provided by the Defence.
19 MR. LUKIC: Oh, that is right. My mistake, sorry.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the right document, I think. And then
21 we -- you asked for page 95.
22 MR. LUKIC: 95, yes.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: 19792.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. This is a picture from your collection. We can see a big part of
Page 17690
1 Sarajevo. The photo was taken from that point; right?
2 A. This looks like it was taken from way-point 10 or way-point 6,
3 looking towards the west. And I think that's Igman in the distance with
4 Hadzici and Sokolica Colonija [phoen]. The airport is visible so.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Should I understand this as that the centre part of
6 town is not visible here?
7 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. And now let me ask you something about way-point 5. Again from
11 the table we can see that you say that that point is at a -- an altitude
12 of 1073 metres. You were shown a photo from this document. The number
13 is 42.
14 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the page number 42 from this document,
15 please.
16 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember the place where you were? Has
17 the photo jogged your memory?
18 A. Yes, I remember this location.
19 Q. Would you agree with me that in the direction that we are looking
20 at, there is no elevation, there's no hill. The only obstacle is the
21 forest. What I mean is that from the point where one is standing to take
22 the photo and the city, there is no obstacle but the forest.
23 A. That's true. The -- this photograph is from the view-point --
24 the camera is facing north towards the city and the ground falls away
25 from the camera at this point but there are, as you point out, trees and
Page 17691
1 forest, yes.
2 Q. And would you agree with me that a shell fired from the mortar
3 would be heard in the area behind this forest? In other words, that the
4 forest would not be an obstacle to the sound. If you can agree with me;
5 if not, we can move on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, this needs audiological expertise, isn't
7 it? Unless you have established that the witness has it, apart from the
8 fact that your question doesn't indicate at what distance, where, and, of
9 course, a forest in itself does not stop sound, although it may have an
10 effect.
11 If you want the witness to answer this question, then please
12 establish that is that good basis for it.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] And now let's look at the map that you have in
15 front of you on the screen. It's 65 ter 10441. In this case, this is
16 Exhibit P2380.
17 If we project this on to the ground, this way-point is some
18 2800 metres from Markale; right? Would you agree with that estimate?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Which way-point exactly do you refer to, Mr. Lukic?
20 MR. LUKIC: Way-point number 5.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: Approximately 2800 metres, I would -- yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. And the azimuth is less than 180 degrees. Would you agree with
25 that as well?
Page 17692
1 A. I would, yes.
2 Q. We did our calculations, and we came up with 167.4 degrees.
3 Would you agree that this corresponds with the point that you marked as
4 way-point 5?
5 A. I did not precisely measure it, but I'm not going to dispute that
6 measurement that you made.
7 Q. [In English] Thank you. [Interpretation] Way-point 4 is what you
8 marked as being at 1080 metres. In the set of photos that you provided,
9 together with way-point 4, we also find the photo depicted on page 33 of
10 this document.
11 However, we have to go back to 19792. I apologise for that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you have a few short questions,
13 Mr. Lukic, that's okay. But, otherwise, we should take the break first.
14 MR. LUKIC: We can take the break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take the break first.
16 Could the usher escort the witness out of the courtroom. We'd
17 like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Hogan.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes
20 to 2.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 17693
1 Q. May we proceed?
2 A. Certainly.
3 MR. LUKIC: I would like to have page number 33 from the same
4 document.
5 Q. [Interpretation] This is a photo which you linked to way-point 4.
6 Obviously it faces the city. You can actually see the city of
7 Sarajevo -- Sarajevo from that point. Please remember this photo as we
8 move on to the following page, page 34. This is Bistrik, the fortress of
9 Bistrik. The previous photo, was it actually taken in the direction of
10 Bistrik? Was that the way the camera was facing when the photo was
11 taken?
12 A. No. The previous photo that we saw before this one was oriented
13 a bit further to the north.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And from where was it taken?
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, both this photograph and the previous
16 photograph were taken from way-point 4 on the satellite image.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Would you agree with me when I say that from way-point 4 there
20 are no obstacles; i.e., there's no hilltop or any such thing between
21 way-point 4 and the city of Sarajevo?
22 A. From -- from the old city of Sarajevo, I would agree.
23 Technically there is an obstacle if you're looking towards the western
24 part of Sarajevo. There's a rise in the land further to the west of
25 way-point 4.
Page 17694
1 But for the old part of city -- of the city, I would agree with
2 you.
3 Q. Would you also agree with me when I say that there are no natural
4 obstacles in the direction of observation point 1?
5 A. If you just give me a minute.
6 Q. Sure.
7 A. All right. Observation point 1 is on the northern slope of
8 Colina Kapa. So the actual crest of Colina Kapa would be between
9 way-point 4 and observation point -- of post 1.
10 Q. Do you know the elevation of Colina Kapa?
11 A. Not at this moment. I have seen the elevation on a map, but I --
12 I don't remember what it is.
13 Q. Is it lower or higher than way-point 4, which is 1080 metres?
14 A. I believe it would be lower.
15 Q. Thank you. And now let's focus on way-point 2, as well as on
16 way-point 3.
17 Would you agree with me if I said that these two points are both
18 in Studenkovici village?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever we are going back to the various
20 way-points, could we have them on the screen. That is the -- I don't
21 know ... that is the aerial photograph what the distance is and the
22 lines.
23 MS. HOCHHAUSER: It's Exhibit P2380.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We have it on our screens now. Could we zoom in on
25 the way-points.
Page 17695
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it true that way-point 3 and 2 are both in the territory of
3 Studenkovici village?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it true that both these points, both way-point 2 and
6 way-point 3, are located very high up on a very high elevation. Do you
7 remember?
8 A. It certainly is higher than the city of Sarajevo. I think it's
9 about 1200 metres, if my memory serves me correctly, above sea level.
10 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Can I -- I'm sorry again to interrupt. But
11 there is the index to these photographs that the witness doesn't have in
12 front of him which marks the -- the relevant numbers, including the
13 elevations so --
14 MR. LUKIC: If you have index, can you provide it for the
15 witness.
16 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Rather than asking the witness to guess.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Lukic, you said are these and these
18 way-points in Studenkovici. What is the relevance for us to know that it
19 is in Studenkovici and not in any village by any other name?
20 MR. LUKIC: It will be clear to us, Your Honour, when we will
21 see, and we can see, if you want, we have [Overlapping speakers] ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it will become clear then I'll patiently
23 wait.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Would you also agree with me that this point is
Page 17696
1 beyond the framework of 176 degrees, that it goes all the way up to 177
2 or even 178 degrees? I'm talking about way-point 3.
3 A. Way-point 3? Well, I think -- well, it may be a fraction of a
4 degree off of 176 degrees. I tried to get on to the 176 degree line for
5 both these way-points because they were the only two that I had access to
6 along that azimuth. So it -- it may be a quarter of a degree to the west
7 of the actual 176-degree mark.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you said it even goes to -- are you
9 talking about the text or because if you look at it, it would be just --
10 it was touching upon -- is the middle of the curve which is, I would say,
11 if you look at the whole of it, if you know that the two lines are
12 6 degrees apart, then it would be minimal, I would say. It's somewhere
13 176 and a half or something like that. But, of course, we would have to
14 measure.
15 MR. LUKIC: I'm not an expert so I'm just following what my
16 experts told me.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- experts. One of the first things you
18 have to do with experts is first carefully consider whether they are
19 right or wrong. And this is a matter of measurement. It has got nothing
20 to do with -- to use a centimetre you don't have to be an expert. Unless
21 the expert thought that the whole of the text WP 3 would cover the
22 way-point, which is not the case.
23 MR. LUKIC: It might be the case because only now we actually
24 figured out through this witness that crescents are actually the point.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, so now you -- knowing this, you can --
Page 17697
1 MR. LUKIC: Adapt --
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- adjust your questions to what you know now
3 instead of relying on the experts.
4 MR. LUKIC: May I proceed, Your Honour?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
7 [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up 65 ter 1D1306 in
8 e-court.
9 Q. Now the people who work for us have looked at the map which they
10 took from Google Earth, and they determined those points which, according
11 to them, represent way-point 2 and way-point 3.
12 And now the following photo. I -- I need 65 ter 1D1307.
13 As a matter of fact, this depicts the village of Studenkovici and
14 its general region. Would you agree with me that way-points 2 and 3 are
15 the points that are hidden in -- on the sloping ground and not in the
16 valley that is depicted in this photo?
17 A. No. I -- I believe the truck or lorry that's in the bottom
18 right-hand corner is the same location where I parked to take the
19 way-point GPS back in the summer of 2009. Sorry, 2007. So that -- I'm
20 sorry, and that would designate way-point 2.
21 Q. Therefore, according to you, way-point 2 is the place where this
22 lorry is parked.
23 A. Yes. That's where I marked the GPS where I stopped, and I took a
24 way-point with my GPS and recorded those numbers, and that is what was
25 marked as way-point 2 on my map.
Page 17698
1 Q. Very well. Just bear with me for a second, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is instructed not to speak aloud.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In that case, I would abandon the investigation that was carried
5 out by Colonel Demurenko, and since I have also abandoned the work
6 produced by Mr. van der Weijden, I ask you in what way you participated
7 in his work. And then we started discussing the incident known as F1.
8 And now, in order for us to continue discussing the matter --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm still puzzled by what happens. I
10 always understood that reading a GPS position was -- the outcome of that
11 is more or less dictated by, first of all, the satellites and then, of
12 course, by not misreading reading it. But, therefore, I'm a bit puzzled
13 that both parties now have GPS readings which are the same but finding
14 themselves in entirely different positions and, of course, I'm wondering
15 what explains all this.
16 Now, Mr. Hogan has told us, at least as far as I understand, and
17 he has always photographed the GPS reading as well, as I saw in the
18 hundred photographs, that still is a puzzle for me, but ... I -- I would
19 invite the parties to see whether -- where it went wrong for whom?
20 MS. HOCHHAUSER: Your Honour, unless I'm misunderstanding, the
21 prior -- the picture that was shown before this one, which was --
22 Mr. Lukic stated was their expert's explanation of where those way-points
23 were, I don't think we've heard what that is based on and whether it's
24 based on the same GS readings as Mr. Hogan received or the witness's
25 understanding of the markings on that Mount Trebevic satellite. So I --
Page 17699
1 JUDGE ORIE: If it is based on the markings and text rather than
2 the crescent that might explain quite a bit. But, of course, GPS
3 readings should be the same performed by either Prosecution or Defence.
4 I'm just puzzled by it. Let's leave it to that.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: I think the only discrepancy is in regard of VP 4, in
7 regard to the last one. Otherwise I don't see any other discrepancies.
8 A. Presently. We are looking now at way-point 4.
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I thought we were looking at 2 --
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, my mistake, 2.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Apparently for way-point 2 then there
13 is some disagreement.
14 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could I now get D125 in e-court,
17 please.
18 Q. Since this document is an exhibit already and an identical
19 photograph can be found in 65 ter 10270 on the OTP list, and the
20 photograph was marked by Ms. Pita on the 25th of September, 2001.
21 In this photograph, the house on the right -- actually, this roof
22 is the incident site. It's here that the wounding took place.
23 A. Yes. I think this view-point is from the spot where the little
24 girl had been standing.
25 Q. Let us just remember this brick wall of the house facing the
Page 17700
1 camera.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's see 1D514.
3 Q. This is a map of Sarajevo, and we circled three locations. I'll
4 tell you what we consider them to be. Or, actually, I'll ask you.
5 If you take -- or --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. If you look at the top circle, does it show the location of the
9 house on Zagrecka Street where incident F1 took place?
10 A. Yes. The house is within that circle.
11 Q. If we look at the bottom circle, do we agree that it marks
12 Baba Stijena?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The circle in the middle encircles three symbols on a green
15 surface. These symbols are crescents. Can you see them?
16 A. I can see them, yes.
17 Q. When you were at the site, do you remember visiting a Muslim
18 cemetery; and could you locate it with respect to this centre circle?
19 A. Yes, I've been past that cemetery many times.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as the
21 next Defence exhibit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D514 receives number D376,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
Page 17701
1 Now, Mr. Lukic, if you want to depict an area, I can imagine you
2 use a circle. If you want to depict a specific spot, I would not use a
3 circle unless it is exactly that spot as in the centre of the circle, but
4 then you'd do better by pointing at that centre.
5 MR. LUKIC: Maybe we can correct this map. Because I think the
6 circles are proper for Baba Stijena, since it's larger area, and for
7 cemetery.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: Maybe the witness could put the dot on this map where
10 he thinks the incident took place.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would ...
12 I don't know what conclusions later will be drawn from it, but
13 whatever the conclusions are, I take it that always the spot where the
14 victim was hit plays a role.
15 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's approximately there but it's on the --
16 and maybe if I could try this again.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can eradicate it and then do it again.
18 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: Right. Approximately there.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Then perhaps this document should be
24 saved instead of the previous one. That will be our preferred solution.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, is it possible to replace the
Page 17702
1 previous document by this one as the exhibit?
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Since the computer of the usher crashed, there'll be
4 no possibility to save whatever.
5 The previous one has been saved. Could we invite the witness
6 to ...
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Meanwhile you put some other questions to the
9 witness and then we'll re-visit this issue, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes. But I need usher's computer to see another
11 photo.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No questions without photos, maps.
13 MR. LUKIC: I can proceed with different topic.
14 Q. [Interpretation] We'll have to return to this question, sir. And
15 I'll ask you about F12.
16 Dzenana Sokolovic, age 31, and her 7-year-old son, Mervin, were
17 fired on at Zmaja Od Bosne Street.
18 Did you in the picture P136, did you see the UN GOFRS who were
19 like firemen?
20 A. I don't remember what the photograph -- which photograph you are
21 referring to but I have seen a photograph and video with GOFRS in it at
22 that location.
23 Q. We're probably speaking about the same thing. Once the system is
24 up again, we can take a look.
25 But did you see in that recording that the GOFRS, the members of
Page 17703
1 that unit, were armed with pistols?
2 A. I don't remember seeing the pistols, but I've seen other
3 photographs not of -- of GOFRS but not at this sniping location where
4 they have been armed, and I -- I have personal knowledge that they were
5 armed. So that doesn't surprise me.
6 Q. Did you notice in the recordings, did you know otherwise, that
7 they also had military weapons, such as sniping rifles?
8 A. Not in the photographs of this sniping incident. I don't recall
9 any such military weapons.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I see that the three blue circles on the
11 map are now available again. Perhaps you could ask the witness to mark
12 where he thinks the house is where the victim was hit at the balcony.
13 THE WITNESS: And I've just placed a red dot where I believe that
14 house is located.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You earlier said "approximately there." I do
16 not know where there's --
17 THE WITNESS: Approximately. You are correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- any more precise way.
19 THE WITNESS: It's just disappeared again.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It just disappeared again. We are -- I think it
21 would be wiser, Mr. Lukic, if we adjourn early today --
22 MR. LUKIC: We will lose only a couple of minutes and it will
23 speed up if we have system working.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it would be better to -- because now
25 going back to the previous subject doesn't make much sense. Everyone
Page 17704
1 gets confused.
2 First, Mr. Hogan, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at
3 9.30 but then in Courtroom I again. And I again instruct you that you
4 should not speak or communicate in whatever way about your testimony.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You are may follow the usher.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, apart from technical problem, how much
9 time you think you would still need tomorrow?
10 MR. LUKIC: Are you telling me that you have problem with me
11 because I want more time?
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, I was talking about technical problems, nothing
13 else.
14 MR. LUKIC: As I understood, we have only one more witness coming
15 this week.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
17 MR. GROOME: Is the Chamber in receipt of the e-mail and new
18 schedule that I sent about an hour and a half ago?
19 JUDGE ORIE: I am afraid that I have not seen that. But could I
20 immediately look at it, if it is already sent to -- let me have a look.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Don't think that we have received anything yet.
23 Could you summarise the gist of it.
24 MR. GROOME: The gist of it is, Your Honour, that based on what
25 the Chamber has asked us to do with respect to Mr. Theunens, although
Page 17705
1 last Friday I believed I could do that, and as much -- as hard as we
2 tried over the weekend, it isn't possible to call him this week, so we're
3 going to be rescheduling him to the second week in November.
4 During that time we'll make the proposal that the Chamber has
5 requested. We'll sit down and talk with the Defence about what is truly
6 in contention in the report, and as Mr. Ivetic was requesting notice
7 about the documents, we will be able at that stage to identify which
8 documents we'll be using in the first part of the report.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that means what exactly for this week's
10 schedule? I remember having seeing an e-mail in which you said he was
11 not available [overlapping speakers].
12 MR. GROOME: We tried with a couple of witnesses and came close
13 with Mr. Higgs but he is not able to be here. There is a witness that is
14 arriving I believe today, but he's represented, and we won't be able to
15 speak to him until his lawyer appears. We will attempt to advance that
16 witness to Thursday. But other than that, there is no other witnesses
17 that we can call this week.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So that means if we finish Mr. Hogan tomorrow - I'm
19 looking at you, Mr. Lukic - tomorrow -- we would have no witness for
20 Wednesday but perhaps for Thursday.
21 MR. GROOME: That's correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That perhaps makes life a bit more easy for
23 you, Mr. Lukic, and you know what the Chamber always seeks to achieve.
24 Then we adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
25 1st of October, in Courtroom I, at 9.30 in the morning.
Page 17706
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.14 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 1st day of
3 October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.
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