Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17707

 1                           Tuesday, 1 October 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would like to raise

12     a preliminary matter.

13             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  There are a few matters

14     this morning.

15             First, with respect to RM509, the Prosecution owes the Chamber a

16     decision on whether we will call that witness.  I want to inform the

17     Chamber of the Prosecution's decision with respect to the need to adduce

18     the evidence of RM509.  In short, the Prosecution does not intend to call

19     this witness with the caveat which I will explain below given that there

20     is a small chance that it may still be necessary to call him to establish

21     the foundation for two intercepts.

22             Your Honour, the next bit of my submission requires or --

23     private session because it deals with a protected witness, so I'd ask

24     that we go into private session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 17708

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Page 17709

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 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, now with respect to RM247, the Chamber

11     provisionally admitted the evidence of RM247 pursuant to 92 bis on the

12     6th of September, 2013.  The Prosecution has decided to move to withdraw

13     this witness because during the attestation process the witness provided

14     inconsistent information on one aspect of his statement.  We have already

15     provided information about this to the Mladic Defence pursuant to

16     Rule 68.

17             If the Chamber will entertain an oral motion to withdraw him, we

18     would do that, or if the Chamber would prefer that it be done in writing,

19     we would do that in due course.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it can be done orally, even on the spot.  I

21     do understand that you withdraw the motion to have the evidence of

22     Witness RM247 to be withdrawn from the 92 bis application.

23             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll have a look at it, but most likely

25     we'll give a very short oral decision.

Page 17710

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, this next application addresses two --

 3     two intercepts, 65 ters 20873 and 28036, and I've spoken to Mr. Lukic

 4     about this so he knows that I'm making this application.

 5             On 19th of September, the Chamber entered its decision on the

 6     admission of evidence related to RM506 [Realtime transcript read in

 7     error "RM5067"].  At that time, the Chamber inquired about the tendering

 8     of the same item of evidence with duplicate 65 ter numbers, and that is

 9     65 ter 2873 [sic] and 28036.  The Prosecution has reviewed the -- the

10     Chamber's comments about these two exhibits, and now withdraws the

11     tendering of 20873 and re-tenders, 28036.  As the Chamber correctly

12     pointed out there are differences in the English translations, although

13     the B/C/S text is the same.  The Prosecution relies on 28036 as this

14     exhibit has the official CLSS translation and the other was a draft

15     translation.

16             Additionally, the Chamber inquired about the difference in the

17     number of the heading of the intercept.  The Prosecution submits that

18     these two numbers reflect that the intercept was entered twice in the

19     bookkeeping system for intercepts and relies on RM506's general

20     explanation of the meaning of these heading numbers as -- as mentioned in

21     his testimony.

22             So the -- at this time, the Prosecution tenders 28036.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome, on page 4, line 4, a number, "2873,"

24     appears, may I take it that you intended to say or even have said

25     "20873."

Page 17711

 1             MR. GROOME:  That's correct.  Thank you for that, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And then we also have on page 4, line 2, a

 3     "Witness RM5067" and that should be "RM506," I take it.

 4             MR. GROOME:  That's correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the question that remains is, is there

 6     any objection against admission of 28036?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             Mr. Groome informed me this morning about this issue, but we --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you need more time.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, we didn't have time to check.  Probably we

11     wouldn't have any objections, but we have to check.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could we hear from you not later than this

13     week.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.

16             Mr. Groome.

17             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the next issue is a request from the

18     Prosecution for the Chamber to clarify a recent decision on the

19     Prosecution's 18th Rule 92 bis motion entered on the 23rd of 2013, with

20     respect to the witness, Mirsad Krlic.

21             In paragraph 7 of the decision, the Chamber states that the

22     Witness Krlic's attestation in his testimony in the Krajisnik case meets

23     the attestation requirement of Rule 92 bis B.  However, in paragraph 15,

24     the Chamber instructs the Prosecution to file the corresponding

25     attestation and declaration to Mr. Krlic's statement.  So the Prosecution

Page 17712

 1     is simply asking for the Chamber to review its decision and perhaps

 2     clarify it for us.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If I can deal with that very quickly, Mr. Groome.

 4             I read the following for you:

 5             On the 23rd of September, the Chamber issued its decision on the

 6     Prosecution's 18th motion pursuant to Rule 92 bis.  In the disposition,

 7     the Chamber instructed the Prosecution to file an attestation and

 8     declaration in relation to the 27th of June, 1996, witness statement of

 9     Mirsad Krlic and the supplemental information sheet of the 24th of April,

10     2005, in relation to the same witness.

11             The Chamber wishes to clarify that it is not necessary for the

12     attestation and declarations to be filed in relation to Witness Krlic as

13     the Chamber had already deemed as sufficient the attestation provided by

14     him in a previous case.

15             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.  The Prosecution --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That resolves the matter.

17             MR. GROOME:  The Prosecution appreciates the clarification.

18     Mr. Traldi is present in court to raise one last brief matter.  And,

19     Your Honour, can I just simply say that Ms. Hochhauser has been delayed.

20     Something has come up and she will be here, I believe, in the next few

21     minutes, but I will be here to take the cross-examination of Mr. Hogan.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Can we move go into

25     private session, please.

Page 17713

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

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Page 17714











11  Page 17714 redacted.  Private session.















Page 17715

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10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             Is the Defence ready to continue the cross-examination of

14     Mr. Hogan?

15             Could I ask you, Mr. Lukic, may I take it that you'll finish

16     today at what moment approximately?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Well, we -- we spent some time in this session, my

18     plan was to finish in the first two sessions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In the first two sessions.

20             MR. LUKIC:  But now I'm lacking 20 minutes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You're lacking 20 minutes, but at least --

22             MR. LUKIC:  I will --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the next witness will be ready to testify only

24     on Thursday, it's for sure that we'll conclude the testimony of Mr. Hogan

25     today.

Page 17716

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Then the witness is -- we're waiting for the witness.

 4             Meanwhile, I deal with a very short matter related to P1467,

 5     which was admitted into evidence with Mirko Trivic.  The Chamber requests

 6     the Registry to replace the English translation of P1467 with a new

 7     version that has been uploaded into e-court under number 65 ter 25860 a.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Hogan.

10             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, I remind you that you're still bound by the

12     solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

13                           WITNESS:  BARRY HOGAN [Resumed]

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic will now continue his cross-examination.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hogan.

18        A.   Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

19        Q.   We had some technical problems yesterday, so I'll try to fix it

20     today and just ask you to put that red dot again.  Hopefully it would

21     work today.

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  So we need -- it was accepted yesterday, but I don't

24     know if it's in the system since it broke down.  I'll ask for 1D514.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 17717

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think that a number was already

 2     assigned to the marked map D376, so if the witness now marks this map

 3     that will then, once being marked, be admitted as D376.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hogan, you're invited to, again, put the red

 6     dot --

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at the place of the house where ...

 9             THE WITNESS:  Approximately there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further marking required, Mr. Lukic?  If not --

11             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then this one will be saved and is the admitted

13     version of D376.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Hogan, may I ask you, yesterday, if I

15     remember correctly, you put the red dot on the other site of that street.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did, Your Honour.  And I -- I -- I attempted

17     to again this morning.  However, the -- the dot is so much bigger than a

18     house so I thought, well, it's approximately there.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your recollection is this on the right side of

20     this street or on the left side of the street?

21             THE WITNESS:  From this view-point it's on the left side.  It's

22     on the west side of the street.  I see it has disappeared.  I can mark it

23     again, if you wish.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no need to have it marked again because we

25     could --  now --

Page 17718

 1             MR. LUKIC:  There is a problem.  Nobody's receiving B/C/S

 2     translation.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The B/C/S translation is still not received.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  It's okay now.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it is apparently.  What I do not fully

 6     understand is nowadays we have technological means which are so much more

 7     precise.  If you take a Google Earth, you most likely would be able to

 8     spot this one single house.  So, therefore, why are we working with this,

 9     if I could say, old-fashioned systems, if it comes down to one house.

10             I would invite the parties to see whether they could get a

11     Google Earth picture of this ...

12             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know what -- what the Defence, of course,

14     wants to do with the blue circles and the red dot.  Of course, much

15     depends.  If it's just to say it was in this area apart from that we knew

16     that already, that it doesn't make any -- but if later on we are trying

17     to reconstruct on the basis of maps lines of sight and whether they

18     crossed over a cemetery or not, then why not use the most precise

19     technical means?

20             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, once the witness is released as a

21     witness we will ask Mr. Hogan to look at Google Earth and see if the

22     house is still there, it's in the same location, and, if so, I'll

23     negotiate with Mr. Lukic about doing that.

24             I was going to suggest for our purposes today could we not just

25     zoom in on that portion of the map and allow Mr. Hogan to put a more

Page 17719

 1     precise mark.

 2             And, finally, Your Honours, to remind the Chamber of something I

 3     said at the start of the case, the Prosecution does have a very

 4     sophisticated mapping programme which allows the calculation of lines of

 5     sight elevations.  It is very precise.  It's, I think, the

 6     state-of-the-art technology.  So if the Chamber or the Defence ever want

 7     to -- to look at it and rely or -- or explore the possible use of it in

 8     the trial, the Prosecution would make the arrangements to make that

 9     happen.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, a lot of offers to improve the accuracy

11     of your questioning.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We were just being reminded how OTP is powerful and

15     we are not --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, Google Earth is not

17     something so special that I might even attempt to get you the

18     Google Earth picture of that specific area during the break.  Takes me

19     five minute, approximately, but it has got nothing to do with resources.

20             Please proceed.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, just to be sure, D376 has been --

23     is now saved and is in the body of evidence as admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The initial document 1D00514

25     has -- that was assigned D376 has been replaced with the new document, as

Page 17720

 1     marked by the witness [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  [Overlapping speakers] number.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And now we have the unmarked version still on our

 5     screen.

 6             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             Now I'd like to have 1D515 in the e-court, please.

 9             If we could zoom in a bit more the middle of the picture.  Bit

10     more.  And just bit more.  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] In this photograph, sir, we see in the centre, a

12     bit to the right from the centre, a part of the Muslim cemetery we spoke

13     about yesterday; is that right?

14        A.   It's difficult for me to make that out, but I wouldn't be

15     surprised.  I can see it a little bit more clearly now, and I think it

16     might be part of the cemetery, yes.

17        Q.   Could you put a circle around the place where you see this part

18     of the cemetery, please.

19        A.   [Marks]

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have this exhibit -- we would like to tender

21     it [overlapping speakers] evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, photograph marked by the witness.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D377, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. LUKIC:  If we could now have D377 on one part -- side of the

Page 17721

 1     screen, and beside it, to have 1D516.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] This looks in the same direction, only the lens

 3     is turned a bit sideways, and it was photographed from outside the house

 4     where the incident happened; correct?

 5        A.   If you're talking about the view from the location where the

 6     little girl was shot, this shows a different angle.  This -- what we're

 7     looking at does not look in the same direction towards Baba Stijena.

 8        Q.   When you were on the spot, were you able to see this cemetery?

 9        A.   I don't believe that I noticed the cemetery from the porch or

10     from the entrance-way of the witness's house, victim witness's house.

11     I -- we had to zoom in quite a bit for me to see what looked like

12     headstones on that photograph just now.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have then D377 back on our screens, please.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  It takes just a little bit of time for it to be

15     uploaded.  I'm sorry.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps it's easier to use the unmarked version

18     with the 1D number --

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- 514.  If you want to compare the two, it's

21     perhaps not necessary to have the marked version on the screen.

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's only -- yeah -- thank you, Your Honour.  It's

23     only 1D515, I think.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are right.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 17722

 1        Q.   Here, Mr. Hogan, we see - can you see it now? - this cemetery we

 2     discussed?

 3        A.   Yes.  After -- after we had zoomed in and I can see the un-zoomed

 4     part, I can make it out, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We'll need that picture on our screens.  Okay.  Now

 7     we have ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the marked photograph was a zoomed-in version

 9     of the photograph produced by the Defence, which makes less clear that

10     the position from where the photograph was taken is at least different

11     from the position taken at the time by Mr. Hogan, who said that he had

12     taken that picture from the position; that is, place and the height of

13     the lens adapted to a small child.

14             And, therefore, Mr. Lukic, of course, the Chamber will ask itself

15     what is the use of saying that there is a line of sight to a point

16     different from the point where the victim was hit.  So if you would

17     please keep that in mind when further developing your Defence position.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.  Can we have D125, please.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a photograph that you took; correct?

20        A.   I can't remember if it was -- I personally took it or my

21     colleague took it, but I was present, one way or the other.

22        Q.   [In English] Yes, thank you.

23             [Interpretation] Could you mark on this photograph the location

24     of Baba Stijena?

25        A.   Oh, I'm sorry.

Page 17723

 1             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Groome.

 3             MR. GROOME:  So the record is clear and so that I understand what

 4     we're looking at, although Mr. Lukic is mentioned that it is a photo, and

 5     I agree with that, it appears to be some black markings on it.  So the

 6     record should reflect that is already marked but -- and Mr. Lukic could

 7     enlighten me as to what those markings are.  I certainly would appreciate

 8     it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It reads "baba," if I ...

10             MR. LUKIC:  And obviously it's marked by Ms. Fatima Pita.  It

11     says at the left part of this picture, on 25th of September, 2001.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do we need those markings, Mr. Lukic,

13     because, if not, we'd rather use a -- a -- an unmarked photograph.

14     But ... I don't know what you're -- what you're heading for.

15             MR. LUKIC:  That's -- that's the only photo we have.  That's why

16     we used marked version.  I would like to have clean version as well.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But then please put your questions.  If the

18     Prosecution could find -- try to find whether there's a blank version.

19     But it may not influence ...

20             THE WITNESS:  I have not marked the photograph as yet.  But do

21     you wish me to do so?

22             MR. LUKIC:

23        Q.   Yes, please.

24        A.   [Marks]

25             MR. LUKIC:  So if we can -- if there is no any unmarked version

Page 17724

 1     of this picture, if we can save this one as the next Defence exhibit.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Photograph previously marked, now marked by

 3     the witness, Madam Registrar, would receive number ...

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D378, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   At that time, Mr. Hogan, did you know, and do you know today,

 8     that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina controlled the area of the cemetery;

 9     in fact, the entire area up to Baba Stijena?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You were on the ground.  Do you agree that the cemetery is

12     approximately halfway between the site of the incident and Baba Stijena?

13        A.   Probably a third.  But I -- I hadn't measured it so I will not

14     dispute approximately half, yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   Did you establish the distance from the site of the incident to

16     Baba Stijena?

17        A.   I did.  Actually, the sniping expert established the distance and

18     I was standing beside him, and I do not recall what exactly it was.

19        Q.   So, on that occasion, you did not only rely on what the mother,

20     Fatima Pita, and the father, Ekrem Pita, told you about the distance to

21     Baba Stijena?

22        A.   No, we did not only rely on them, no.

23        Q.   And did you establish on that occasion if there was optical

24     visibility of the house from the cemetery we have just seen?

25        A.   No.  Because we could not see the cemetery from the location from

Page 17725

 1     which the -- where the little girl was standing.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, your question was whether there was

 3     "optical visibility of the house from the cemetery we have just seen."

 4             Did you mean to say the cemetery we just have seen or a line of

 5     visibility we have just seen?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Cemetery.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Cemetery.  Just cemetery.  Okay.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you establish whether the same trees existed

10     in the year of the incident - let me see, 13th December 1992 - and at the

11     moment when you were on the site?

12        A.   We asked about the tree that was growing between the witness's

13     house and the next-door house that we saw circled in the black in the --

14     the previous photograph.  But we did not establish the growth of the

15     other trees in the immediate area of the victim's house.

16        Q.   And what did you establish about the tree that you made inquiries

17     about?

18        A.   That that had been planted and grown since the incident occurred,

19     so between the time of the shooting and the time of the photograph

20     showing the tree, and -- which is the reason that the witness circled it

21     in black during her testimony.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday we began discussing GOFRS.  Let me just

23     tell you that on transcript page in our trial 1817, lines 15

24     through 12 [as interpreted], and page 1803, line 14, up to 1804, line 1,

25     Mr. John Jordan explained that GOFRS were located on the site related to

Page 17726

 1     the incident F12, where fire was opened at Dzenana Sokolovic and her

 2     7-year-old son, Nermin Divovic, while they were walking along

 3     Zmaja od Bosne Street.

 4             Did you deal with this at all, and did you establish how far the

 5     members and the vehicles of the GOFRS were from the site of the incident?

 6        A.   They were parked in their vehicle within 50 metres of the

 7     UNPROFOR APC, as far as I can recall.  And I'm getting my information

 8     from the video and from my previous interview with Mr. Jordan and his

 9     previous testimony in another trial.  And I'm -- the -- the figure of

10     50 metres sort of sticks in my mind, within 50 metres of the UNPROFOR

11     APC.

12        Q.   Regarding this incident, F12, Mr. van der Weijden maintained on

13     page 6538 and -39, the transcript of this trial, that the co-ordinates

14     you determined were not accurate, at least not the co-ordinates that he

15     received from the Office of the Prosecutor.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see on the screens

17     page 6539. [In English] can we see our transcript or ...

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.  It's unclear on the

19     record.

20             MR. LUKIC:  It's page of transcript, 6539.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Is it uploaded in e-court?

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's not.  But before we were able to see our

23     transcript, even if it's not uploaded in e-court.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are talking about our transcript, in our

25     case.

Page 17727

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, mm-hm.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Ms. Stewart also informs that she can show in

 4     Sanction, if that's --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It can be shown by Madam Registrar as well, although

 6     this is not the usual way we operate, Mr. Lukic.  And, of course,

 7     everyone in this courtroom, apart from Sanction, can have a look at

 8     transcript from any day in e-court.  So if you have the day and if you

 9     just intend to read from it, because you can't, then automatically have

10     it admitted, but ...

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We need the date also.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, which witness?  Mr. van der Weijden, you

13     said?

14             MR. GROOME:  It's January 10th of 2013.  And, again, Ms. Stewart

15     has the passage right on the screen if that's [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... okay, then if Ms. Stewart

17     would assist us, then that would be appreciated.

18             Could we have it on our screens.

19             MR. LUKIC:  We need line 9 to line 14.  And I will read.

20             I quote:

21             "Q.  Okay.  And were there instances where the co-ordinates that

22     were given to you by the OTP Prosecutor -- investigators did not

23     correlate with that which you have found?  I mean, how do we know that?

24     Where is that reflected in your report?

25             "A.  I would refer to case F12, which is the incident that was

Page 17728

 1     discussed earlier this -- this morning."

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know about this position of

 3     Mr. van der Weijden, and do you know who provided him with information

 4     about the co-ordinates related to the F12 incident?

 5        A.   I'm not -- I don't know what position Mr. van der Weijden had.

 6     All I heard you say is, I will refer to incident F12.  I -- I don't know

 7     what else he said after that.

 8        Q.   Did you know that he objected to these co-ordinates he received

 9     from OTP investigators?

10        A.   No, I didn't know that.

11        Q.   Now I should like to ask you to reflect upon the incident F3 in

12     which Mrs. Munira Zametica died.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we bring up in e-court 1D1308.

14        Q.   As far as I was able to see from the information available to us,

15     you were here on site sometime around noon.  Can you remember?

16        A.   I don't remember the time of the day.

17        Q.   Could we now, with the assistance of my colleague, Mr. Ivetic,

18     look at a video --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what are we looking at at this moment?  I

20     see four persons close to a bridge, apparently close to water.  Was it

21     taken by whom?  What does it depict?

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's taken from somebody -- by somebody from

23     Mr. Hogan's team when they were in Sarajevo, I guess.  Not --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's good to know, but I can't guess.  And

25     what is -- which direction?  Could we invite Mr. Hogan then to tell us

Page 17729

 1     what we're looking at.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, this photograph was taken by one of

 3     the members of the videography team who was on the opposite bank of the

 4     Dobrinja river from the location where the victim had been shot.  If we

 5     will look in the bottom right-hand corner of the photograph, we can see a

 6     yellow X.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

 8             THE WITNESS:  That, I believe, if you recall the video of this

 9     incident, we can see Mr. Lesic, my colleague, marking the X on the

10     concrete.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perfectly clear.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Could you mark now on this photograph the place where you were

15     told Mr. Zametica was standing?

16        A.   Well, it's the -- it's the yellow X, so I'll circle the yellow X.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps you assist me in -- I may have forgotten

18     about it, but the level of the water was considered here --

19             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the level of the water in this

20     photograph is higher than the day that she was killed by the gun-shot.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, therefore, likely the yellow cross would

22     have been, if you fetch water from the river, as close to the water as

23     the water level was at that time.  Is that --

24             THE WITNESS:  That's accurate, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 17730

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you just tell us, are you able to determine where north,

 4     south, west, east are on this photograph?

 5        A.   Yes.  In Dobrinja at this location, the river runs generally

 6     north/north-west, and upstream is south/south-east.  So we are looking to

 7     the south-west in this location.

 8        Q.   Relative to the bridge, this spot marked as the one where

 9     Mrs. Zametica was standing, relative to the bridge, would it be to the

10     south, north, west, east?  Approximately.

11             I'll just explain why I'm asking this:  Did the shadow of the

12     bridge move and around 3.00 p.m., was it, in fact, covering the spot

13     marked here?

14        A.   First of all, the -- the marking is north of the bridge.  And as

15     far as the shadow of the bridge, I cannot give you an answer to that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's break time so we'll have to break now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It is break time.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, would you like to tender the photograph

20     as marked by the witness.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Photograph 1D1308 as marked by the witness

24     receives number D379, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D379 is admitted into evidence.

Page 17731

 1             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 2             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes

 6     to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10             Meanwhile, I deal with the following matter:  On Friday, the

11     27th of September - that was last week, Friday - the Defence filed a

12     motion requesting an extension to respond to the Prosecution's motion for

13     admission of the evidence of RM518 pursuant to Rule 92 quater, citing the

14     current workload of the Defence and the voluminous nature of the

15     proffered evidence.

16             The Chamber, having considered both of these factors as well as

17     the Prosecution's standing submission that it will not object to

18     reasonable requests for extensions, hereby grants the Defence request and

19     sets the new deadline of 28th of October for the response.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please get P3, and we'll

23     need page 14 of this document on the screens.

24        Q.   Mr. Hogan, when you spoke to Sadija Sahinovic, who showed you

25     where Mrs. Zametica was killed, did she tell you that the shots were

Page 17732

 1     fired from the church?  Or how did you establish that the late

 2     Ms. Zametica was hit from shots from the church?

 3        A.   The investigation reports indicated that the shots came from that

 4     direction.  I don't recall at this moment what Mrs. Sahinovic said in his

 5     statement, but it is in the record.  It can be very easily checked.

 6        Q.   Can you mark the church window in this photograph.  You've

 7     already said that this is zoomed in.  So this is not the view from the

 8     site.

 9             Please just mark the window.

10        A.   I'm afraid it's rather dark on the screen.  If it can be zoomed

11     in a little bit, maybe I could see the -- that area a little bit better.

12        Q.   [In English] I'm sorry, I need this photo like this because we

13     have to see some other buildings as well.

14        A.   Okay.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if the witness can't do it, he can't do

16     it.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Then okay.  Then he cannot.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's ... and "the window," is that supposed to be

19     one window or ...

20             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you asked to mark "the window," so,

24     therefore --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah --

Page 17733

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Or is every window good enough?  Is there -- the

 2     suggestion is, Mr. Lukic, that this witness would have established that

 3     the shot was fired from a window of that church.  That is what you -- is

 4     apparently underlying your question.

 5             Let's first establish whether the witness did so and then ask

 6     him, if that's the case, whether he could further assist us in what

 7     window and -- did you -- you heard the question.  Did you establish

 8     that -- I heard you say a second ago that the -- you established that the

 9     shot was fired from that direction.  Did you -- did your investigation

10     result in an opinion that the shot was fired from a window from this

11     church?

12             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the question of a window never entered

13     my investigation --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Under those circumstances, Mr. Lukic, there's

15     no need to ask the witness to mark windows he has not dealt with in his

16     investigations.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can the photograph be zoomed in without taking

20     away anything from the photograph itself because the frame is rather

21     wide.

22             MR. LUKIC:  If you wish to do so but now witness said that he

23     does not know from which window.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We -- we could have done it if the witness would

25     have -- yes.  I did it on my screen.  It's perfectly -- well, perfectly.

Page 17734

 1     It is possible to zoom in further, but there's no need to do it at this

 2     very moment.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, did you establish the distance

 6     between the church and the site?  And is it about 1100 metres?

 7        A.   The -- again, the sniping expert established the exact distance.

 8     It is around 1100 metres, I agree with you, but I don't know exactly the

 9     number.  It's in the report though.

10        Q.   All the buildings we see in this photograph are in the territory

11     controlled by the BH army; is that correct?

12        A.   No, that's not correct.  There's a portion of one apartment

13     building that's visible.  That is in the VRS-controlled territory.

14        Q.   Can you mark that building, the one that, according to you, is on

15     VRS-controlled territory.

16        A.   I'm afraid -- yeah, the corner of that building behind that

17     rectangle.  I'm afraid I didn't outline it very well.  It's very hard to

18     see on this screen.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I repeat my suggestion to enlarge it until to the

20     end of the frame.  And then it could be marked again, perhaps.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Thank you.  Now we can do that since the

22     witness can establish this point.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We now go back to the -- to the version which was

24     previously marked with a black arrow.  We now zoom in considerably.  See

25     even more.  Even more.  Even more.  That's -- no, that's a bit too much.

Page 17735

 1     Zoom out, please.  Right mouse click will do.  One step further.  One

 2     step further.  One step further.  That's it.

 3             THE WITNESS:  And I can mark this now, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Oops.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Oops.  Off it goes again.

 7             Well, if this is -- if this is still... yes.  Let's store it

 8     quickly before it disappeared again.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Can this be marked as next Defence exhibit.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Madam Registrar, the number would be -- the

11     marked photograph now again marked with blue by this witness.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D380, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do you know, or did you learn that on that bridge that can be

16     seen in other photographs there was, in fact, a firing position of the BH

17     army.  Did Ms. Sadija Sahinovic tell you that?

18        A.   I never learned that, I never knew that, and Mrs. Sahinovic did

19     not tell me that.

20        Q.   Do you know that after the wounding of Ms. Zametica fire was

21     opened at Serbian position and that that fire continued for about half an

22     hour?

23        A.   I know that after the shooting of Ms. Zametica fire was opened at

24     the VRS position in order to retrieve the body of Mrs. Zametica from the

25     water.  I don't know how long it continued.

Page 17736

 1        Q.   In this trial, two documents originating from the BH army were

 2     shown to us, P29 --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please repeat the numbers.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please repeat, Mr. Lukic, the number.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2389 and P2390.

 6        Q.   They are BH army reports in which we read that there's an

 7     observation post in the church.  Among other things, it is stated that

 8     the Serbian forces have an anti-aircraft machine-gun there, amongst other

 9     things.

10             Did you ever check whether it is possible to place an

11     anti-aircraft machine-gun in the -- in a church tower?  You know the size

12     of that weapon?

13        A.   I never checked whether it's possible.  I don't remember if it

14     actually said in the tower of that -- whether the document said in the

15     tower of the church.  But I've never checked it, no.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you take us exactly -- again, I

17     think we've looked at it before, but where exactly we read what you just

18     have put to the witness.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, it's on page 3.

20     I suppose it's page 3 in the English version too.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  You called two documents and [Overlapping

22     speakers] English version.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Once again.  It was not heard.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, just for the clarity, the counsel

25     called two documents, P2389 and P2390, so we published English versions

Page 17737

 1     of each of those two documents.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps at this moment -- now that makes it

 3     more difficult for me to scroll through it.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We need the third page.  Let's keep the left one.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We keep the left one.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  And we don't know which --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And we move to the third page in the right one.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need the B/C/S for that.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  I need a number for that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Which of the two?

12             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know which the left one is.  With the number

13     6664 [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What are you asking for, Mr. Lukic?  Which

16     document do you need now?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have marked number.  I was surprised by the

18     number by the -- Judge Orie.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Mr. Lukic, you put to the witness that a

20     document or documents contained certain information.  What I'm asking you

21     is to tell me where exactly we find it, because part of the answer of the

22     witness was that he does not remember whether the document really said

23     what you put to the witness.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on the screen P2389, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's dated 2nd of October?  That's a document

Page 17738

 1     dated the 2nd of October.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Let's -- let's have then -- because I thought --

 3     let's have the next one.  P2390.  That's a document from command of

 4     5th Motorised Brigade from the 30th of December, 1993.  And we need --

 5     I'll try with -- we need third page in B/C/S and let's try the third page

 6     in English as well.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Under number -- under number 1.  Then let's have the

 9     fourth page in English.  It's very confusing because of those stamps.

10             Then the second page in English.  Sorry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if it would assist you, at least on one

12     of the documents, I think I found the clear reference to -- to what you

13     are apparently --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Under 2 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- seeking.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Under title 2, number 1 we need.  But I don't see it

17     in English.  And it seems like one page is missing in English.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you referred to the two documents.  Now I'm

19     looking, at this moment, at the document dated the --

20             MR. LUKIC:  30th of December.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, 2nd of October.  And I read to you what it says

22     about -- it says -- it's talking about a church:

23             "The area around the church towards our positions is mined with

24     anti-personnel mines.  The enemy uses the church at Veljine exclusively

25     as an observation post.  According to our information till now, in the

Page 17739

 1     church there are six observers per shift.  The observers are armed with

 2     snipers and one PAM anti-aircraft machine-gun which is in a well,

 3     fortified nest in the church.  From the church, fire is rarely being

 4     opened, and when it is opened a sniper with a silencer is used.  From the

 5     direction of Dobrinja 1, towards Veljine, the trolley terminus, a

 6     connection trench was made.  It is assumed that the enemy shall try to

 7     link Dobrinja 4 and Dobrinja 1 with fortifications."

 8             That is what the 2nd of October document reads.  It is the second

 9     page in e-court in English, and I think that you asked the witness

10     whether it was possible to have a PAM in the tower, and I do not see here

11     that -- that an anti-aircraft is described here as being in the tower.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Can we see page 5 in English, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 5 in English of the same document.  Let's have

14     a look at it.

15             Page 5 of the document is --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Under number --

17             THE REGISTRAR:  This is page 5.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Under number 2, the last sentence of P2390, the last

19     sentence, under number 2, at page 5 says:

20             "There is a PAM and a sniper at the church tower below the bell."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Does that mean that the PAM is below the bell

22     as well?  Is that your interpretation?  Or is there a PAM and a sniper at

23     the church tower below the bell?  I mean that's a matter of

24     interpretation.  If they say there is a tank --

25             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

Page 17740

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If there is a tank at the church -- please, please,

 2     Mr. --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'll read in B/C/S, then maybe it's clearer

 4     [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]... no.  I don't want you to

 6     interrupt me now for the seventh time.

 7             I'm saying that in the English language and it's unclear after I

 8     have done finished, you will suggest that you read the B/C/S --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which I now allow to you do.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we first establish which document are we

14     looking at --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- at the moment.  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17     it's dealing with two documents with different numbers and different

18     dates.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  P2390.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We, at this moment, the one --

22             MR. LUKIC:  From the 30th of December, 1993.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I quoted from the 2nd of October but now we

24     moved to the 30th of December document, and let's just --

25             MR. LUKIC:  That's on our screen.

Page 17741

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  I referred to page 2 in English of

 2     the 2nd of October document, which is an exhibit known under number

 3     P2389.

 4             Apparently we're now moving to the document you would like to

 5     focus on, Mr. Lukic, which is P2390, if I am not mistaken.  And --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  You are right.  And I will read --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's the --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- in B/C/S.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You read in B/C/S the portion you just referred to.

10             MR. LUKIC:  That's the last sentence on page 3 in B/C/S and

11     page 5 in English version, under number 2, the last sentence.  I'll read

12     in B/C/S so that the proper translation is given:

13              [Interpretation] "In the church, in the tower, under the bell,

14     there are a PAM and a sniper."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That requires then -- there is a difference in

16     translation, I agree with you.

17             Mr. Lukic, you've asked a question whether you can put a PAM in a

18     tower.  We see, by the way, that in the one document it's described --

19     it's the 2nd of October document, 2389.  It's described in a way

20     different from how it is described in 2390.

21             Having established this, please ask further questions to the

22     witness.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   You didn't double-check information at the time when you were in

25     the field, I mean, the information from these documents because you

Page 17742

 1     didn't have the chance to do so.  Or did you?

 2        A.   I didn't -- I didn't check whether there was a possibility of

 3     having the PAM in that tower, that's correct.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But the question was also whether you were able to

 5     double-check on the basis of these documents your findings.

 6             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.  I just received these documents

 7     in May of this year.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, That is clear.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   I'm going to ask you a question now.  It's about incident F5 in

12     which Ramiza Kundo was wounded on the 2nd of November, 1993, while she

13     was carrying buckets of water over the Brijesko Brdo, Brijesko hill.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at a

15     video-clip briefly, with the assistance of Mr. Ivetic.  1D130A is the

16     number.  The video is V000-6006.  We need the following time stamps:

17     1 hour, 34 minutes, through 1 hour, 35 minutes.  It's about the incident

18     of the 11th of July, 1993.

19             [In English] My mistake.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  This is a different video.  It's not the

21     Brijesko Brdo.

22             MR. LUKIC:  No, no.  Although I have the same number under this

23     one.

24             We can start with the picture, P3, and we need page 18.

25             Is this page 18?

Page 17743

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you look at the photograph, I take it that you --

 2     this is Brijesko Brdo.  I think we've seen it earlier.  If you want to

 3     know it for sure --

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Sir, related to this incident, did Mrs. Kundo just show you the

 6     direction from which she was shot, or did she show you also the place

 7     from which the bullet was shot?

 8        A.   She showed the direction from which she believed the bullet was

 9     shot.

10        Q.   And on the basis of what did you determine the place?

11        A.   I didn't determine the place.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's again and again a misunderstanding.  The

13     witness has recorded what he saw.  He has visualised it.  He has recorded

14     the statements given.  The witness, and rightly so, did not determine

15     what you suggest he did.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we then look at this clip in

17     this interval.  65 ter 1D1310.  The interval we'll see is 2 hours, 39

18     minutes, 37 seconds up to 2 hours, 41 minutes, 4 seconds.

19             We can begin.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have the a sound.  Probably need some help

22     from technicians to get sound.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Madam Registrar asked already for

24     assistance.

25             Is there any way we could play it now with sound?

Page 17744

 1             I see the mouth of Mr. Hogan moving, but I don't hear anything in

 2     the picture.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  We are able to play it with sound from Sanction

 4     apparently if that would help.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If that would assist, let's then play it from

 6     Sanction.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             "I put a yellow line and number 1.

 9             "Mrs. Kundo, can you now show me, stand where you were located,

10     to the best of your recollection, at the time that you were shot?

11             "I will now mark that spot using yellow spray paint.

12             "I marked it with a yellow X with a number 1 beside it.

13             "Mrs. Kundo, can you face in the direction that you were facing

14     and assume the position that you were, as close as you can, if you can

15     recall, at the time that you were shot.

16             "And finally, can you please indicate from which direction you

17     heard the gun-shot, as closely as you can recall, at the time that you

18     were shot."

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Just for the record, Mrs. Kundo showed in this video-clip that

21     the shot came from the left; correct?

22        A.   Yes, from down the hill, yes.

23        Q.   She confirmed that she was moving from her house to the other

24     side of the street.  Is this the direction she claimed she was moving in,

25     the one we see on this video?

Page 17745

 1        A.   No.  This video should be viewed in -- in light of her eventual

 2     testimony at the trial.  There is some comment during her testimony about

 3     this video.

 4        Q.   Is she correctly positioned in this video relative to the

 5     direction of movement or not?

 6        A.   No, she's not.

 7        Q.   Did she tell you where the source of water was relative to the

 8     direction she was moving in?  Behind her or ahead of her?

 9        A.   Yes.  As -- as we're looking to this photo, to our left is her

10     residence and to our right is a -- a hill at the bottom of which is a

11     spring or a stream.  And when she was shot, she was coming back up the

12     hill and crossing the street, carrying full pales of water towards her

13     house.  So in this picture, she is 180 degrees opposite to what she had

14     said before and subsequently.

15        Q.   Did she tell you, or did you find out, how far the confrontation

16     line was from this place?

17        A.   I did, and I don't recall what it is right now.  And -- and,

18     again, with the assistance of the sniping expert.

19        Q.   Let me ask you something briefly about the incident F9.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Video from this incident is in our evidence, I think,

21     so there is no need for us to enter this one into evidence, since we

22     quoted exact time-periods we watched now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- I couldn't tell you from the top of my head

24     whether it is or not.  But let's verify this and I take it that if it's

25     not in evidence there will be no objection.

Page 17746

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I'm getting the signs that actually the whole video

 2     is not.

 3             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Also, off the top of my head, my recollection is

 4     that this video with Mrs. Kundo is not in evidence.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Then we would offer this part to -- into

 6     the evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, it needed to be uploaded in e-court

 8     with sound, et cetera.  I don't know whether Madam Registrar has

 9     sufficient material to admit into -- or to register as admitted into

10     evidence the video, inclusive of sound.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  I have received a CD but I cannot confirm exactly

12     what is on the CD.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it seems that there will be no disagreement, I

14     take it, among the parties what was shown and then -- yes,

15     Ms. Hochhauser.

16             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I can tell you that we provided

17     this CD to the Registry under 22311F.  It would be the entirety of this

18     interview, not specifically what he showed but it would include that.

19     That would be the 65 ter number.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You want to have it in evidence.  You do not

21     object.  The best technical way of having it into evidence is still to be

22     decided, but we reserve a number at this moment.

23             Madam Registrar, the number reserved for the portion we just

24     looked at would be ...

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Reserve number would be D381, Your Honours.

Page 17747

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The technicalities for how it will be recorded as

 2     evidence are still to be worked out, together with Madam Registrar,

 3     whether we take the portion of the Sanction or whether we take something

 4     that was uploaded by the Defence under a D number, but where sound

 5     apparently could not be produced.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I would just add to that that I

 7     don't have an objection to this coming in, but I think appropriately it

 8     should come in with the additional testimonial material that the witness

 9     referenced, so I would be -- unless counsel is ready to agree to that

10     now, I'll be submitting an additional 92 bis application for her Galic

11     testimony beginning at approximately transcript 5943 to 5950.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I would suggest that the parties try to seek an

13     agreement on the total package video and related testimony in another

14     case.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In addition, we should put on the record that we

16     saw this video from 2 hours 39 minutes to 2 hours 41 minutes and 24

17     seconds, because the counting was different in the two versions.

18             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm additionally informed by Ms. Stewart that

19     the portion of the video that's under that 65 ter number begins in the

20     same place but has approximately six additional minutes of video passed

21     where Mr. Lukic showed in court.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you want to have that added, that may

23     be part of the package.  I really urge the parties to sit together and to

24     see what the Chamber should receive in evidence on this incident.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 17748

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And what do we mark as D381?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We reserved a number, I think.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We received a number and whether we need further

 5     numbers later, depending on what the package deal would be, we do not

 6     know yet.  Please proceed.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now I should like to focus on incident F9, wherein 16-year-old

11     Sanela Muratovic was injured.  We need again P3, page 21.

12             You recall this.  It was said here that the girl,

13     Sanela Muratovic, was injured, and it is said here that it was from the

14     school for the blind.

15             I would like to ask you:  During your investigation, did you

16     learn that the upper floor of the school for the blind, on the

17     26th of June, 1994, when this incident occurred was almost completely

18     devastated and there was no cover there at all?

19        A.   I did not learn that.  In fact, I learned the opposite.  It

20     was -- it was not without cover there.

21        Q.   How many confrontation lines with the presence of the

22     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina were there and how distant were they from this

23     place?

24        A.   I am not sure what you're asking me.  I know the confrontation

25     line between this location where I'm standing in this photo and the

Page 17749

 1     school for the blind, but I'm not sure about how many confrontation lines

 2     you're talking.  That's confusing to me.

 3        Q.   Is it the case that this girl is standing in a place where there

 4     was a trench of the BH army with soldiers in that trench?

 5        A.   Well, there was a trench that crossed this road.  I was told it

 6     was built by civil defence to help civilians cross safely.  But there

 7     were no soldiers in this trench, no.

 8        Q.   How do you know that, that there were no troops in the trench?

 9        A.   The witnesses told me.

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17750

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Hogan, I should like us to focus now on the incident that

18     occurred on 18 November 1994 - that's F12 - where it is said that

19     Dzenana Sokolovic, 31, and her son, Nermin Divovic, were shot while

20     walking along the street.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 1D1301.

22        Q.   Do you remember and do you agree that the place shown by

23     Dzenana Sokolovic as the place where she was shot was close to the land

24     museum in Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes, we're in the parking lot of the museum in Sarajevo.

Page 17751

 1        Q.   I know you have been asked this in other trials, but for certain

 2     verifications, we need to know how tall you are.  Is it true that you are

 3     193 centimetres tall?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you find out, did you ask Dzenana Sokolovic how tall she was?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I should like to move now to the football match in

 8     Dobrinja.  That's the incident of 18 November 1994.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, I'm a bit lost about how

10     tall Mr. Hogan is, what the -- what the relevance of that is.

11             If you tell us briefly, then at least we are perhaps better able

12     to remember what was said.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  This lady was wounded at the same time when her

14     son was killed.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  And it would be important for us to know his height

17     and her height, to be able to establish from which point her son was

18     killed, since we know that she was wounded in the hip, and he was wounded

19     into the head, and it depends of the elevation of the shooting point.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]

21             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I didn't hear you.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm just asking what has that got to do with the

23     height of the witness.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Then we can establish the height of the lady standing

25     beside him.

Page 17752

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you establish that by establishing his --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I think it is possible.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether or not it's possible, if people are

 4     standing at a different distance from the camera is still to be seen.

 5     But at least that's what you -- you've explained to us why you needed

 6     this information at this moment.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We can -- briefly we can see video where they stand

 9     at the same distance from camera.  It's V000-6997.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  They're standing here at an equal distance from the

11     camera?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe the lady is a bit closer.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what I mean.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  But still I think it's possible to establish

15     the height.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Actually, if I could just ask for clarification.

18             Mr. Lukic just said we were turning to an incident on

19     18 November 1994?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think I stopped him, more or less, and asked

21     him and he was about to move on.  And the incident, 18 November, would

22     be, Mr. Lukic, the next one, therefore?

23             MR. LUKIC:  No, this was 18 November incident.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  And I would now move to soccer game in Dobrinja.

Page 17753

 1     It's G incident; it's shelling.  I think it's G4.  Yes, it is G4.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] In September 2001, you were at Dobrinja in the

 3     place where the incident of the football match occurred on the

 4     1st of June, 1993.  Do you remember that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let us see one photograph that was taken from your video.  That

 7     is your 3D picture.  We shall need D175.  At that time, it was MFI'd.

 8             Would you agree -- in fact, first of all, tell us, in your view

 9     and according to the witnesses who explained this to you, where, in which

10     place, did the incident occur on this upper slab which is the pitch, or

11     the lower ground, which is the parking lot?

12        A.   On the parking lot, where the camera is located taking this

13     photo.

14        Q.   Is it correct that both areas are shielded on three sides by

15     these eight-storey apartment buildings and that on the fourth side there

16     is the Mojmilo hill?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you agree with me when I say that this area was not visible

19     from the positions of the RS?  I mean the pitch and the parking lot.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You will therefore agree, won't you, that since this area was not

22     visible, the VRS was unable to target it with infantry weapons, that is,

23     rifles and machine-guns?

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Judge, I object to this question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  On the basis of?

Page 17754

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  On the basis of it's outside of this witness's

 2     area of expertise as we've established numerous times.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I asked only because of the next question I have.  If

 5     the witness noticed when he was investigating the site any bullet-holes

 6     on the walls of these buildings.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What is now the question?

 8             MR. LUKIC:

 9        Q.   Well, sir, did you notice bullet-holes on those walls of these

10     buildings when you investigated this site?

11        A.   I don't recall seeing any.  I'm not saying there weren't any, but

12     I was focussed on filming the shelling location, not looking for

13     bullet-holes.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's a break time, actually.  I was just warned --

16     warned.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us how much time you would

18     still need after the break, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Half an hour, 45 minutes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's then really try to -- to finish in half

21     an hour, 45 minutes, and try to be as organised as possible.

22             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we'll resume at quarter

25     past 12.00.

Page 17755

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  While the witness is brought in, I'd briefly deliver

 4     a decision on Witness RM247.

 5             The Prosecution this morning withdrew Witness RM247, and the

 6     Chamber hereby vacates it's admission decision in relation to all

 7     material admitted through the witness.  And I briefly refer to it.  It is

 8     an ICTY statement of the witness dated 26th of November, 2005.  It is

 9     excerpts of the testimony of the witness, testimony of the witness in the

10     Popovic case and two photographs, each marked by the witness, both

11     photographs depicting the Orahovac school.

12             That's hereby on the record.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hogan, we'll now continue with the

15     cross-examination.

16             Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, we'll continue dealing with the

19     soccer match incident at Dobrinja, the G4 incident.

20             Is it correct that you photographed

21     Mr. Ismet Haslic [as interpreted] who, according to his own words, was

22     the referee at that match?

23        A.   Yeah, I think his last name was Faslic, but he was the referee,

24     yes.

25        Q.   [In English] Maybe I misspoke but I have Faslic here written as

Page 17756

 1     well.  Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Let us now look at Exhibit 1D1312,

 3     document 1D1312, with the assistance of my colleague, Mr. Ivetic.  Go.

 4             [In English] We tried to solve the problem over the break with

 5     the sound, but obviously we'll have to ask Ms. Stewart to play it from

 6     Sanction.  It's V000-34971A, and we need from 1 minute, 55 seconds, to

 7     2 minutes, 55 seconds.

 8             Can we start now, please.  I think that's the start -- the

 9     starting point.  Yes, please.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             "Could you please show me by standing in the spot where one of

12     the posts, goal-posts, was located on the 1st of June, 1993.

13             "Could you now please show me by standing on the spot where the

14     second goal post at this end of the parking lot was located on the

15     1st of June, 1993, to the best of your recollection."

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   The size of the goal that Mr. Faslic indicated is over 3 metres;

18     right?

19        A.   I -- it would probably be approximately be 3 metres.  I don't

20     know if it's over 3 metres.  It's a rough guesstimate just based on his

21     strides.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Can we ask for this part of the video to be admitted

23     into evidence, please.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It is played from Sanction.

25             Madam Registrar, is there any technical problem in admission?

Page 17757

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  I will check if on the DVD provided to me is the

 2     actual portion.  If not, we can replace it but ...

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we reserve a number for this portion of the

 4     video played.  The number reserved is ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  D382, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll later hear from Madam Registrar whether

 7     the technical problems have been overcome and what exactly are the

 8     numbers which are now part of the body of evidence.

 9             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Next video I would like to show you, Mr. Hogan, is 1D1313, and

12     since our system does not work, I would again kindly ask -- oh, this one

13     does not have sound anyways, so we can see it from our screen.  The time

14     would be very short, from 2 hours, 8 minute, 20 seconds, to 2 hour,

15     8 minutes, 26 seconds.  So only six seconds we'll see from this video.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Can we start now, please.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you recognise the same car park or any other area, because

20     this was shown on BH TV as the incident site?  And you will notice that

21     in this still we see a small goal that is not larger -- rather, wider

22     than 1 metre.

23        A.   Yes, I recognise this video, and I did notice the -- the goal at

24     that end of the parking lot.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just for my own clarity when we talk of goal, do

Page 17758

 1     we talk of a goal post.

 2             THE WITNESS:  It's -- the one that I see in this video is

 3     more similar to a hockey net or a handball net, Your Honour.  It's not a

 4     traditional soccer -- soccer goal or net.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand what a goal is.  That is a ball going

 6     through.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Not as a soccer player.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're talking of a post, some post of sorts,

 9     some pillar, some pole.

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, and the cross bar and the net in behind the

11     post, yes.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Right, okay.  Thank you so much.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did Ismet Faslic show you that there were old cars along the

15     sides of the pitch?

16        A.   Yes, he did.  He indicated that they were there to sort of mark

17     an out of bounds, or the boundary of the playing -- playing surface.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Can we -- we would like to tender this video into the

19     evidence as well.

20             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I just wonder -- unless I missed it, I didn't

21     hear when this video was taken or alleged to have been taken or -- yeah,

22     or where it's from.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It's -- it's broadcasted on Bosnian TV in connection

24     with this incident and was allegedly taped on the same day.  And it's

25     broadcasted on the main informative show of the Bosnian TV.  And we

Page 17759

 1     have -- we have ... ERN number received from the Prosecution.  It's

 2     V000-2479-1-A.

 3             So we are interested, right now, only in those six seconds.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  No objection.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1313 receives number D383,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Now I would like to go back to Mr. Hogan's video,

11     1 -- but now it would be different time interval.  So we marked it as

12     1D1312A.

13        Q.   And we'd like to show you, Mr. Hogan, from 9 minutes and

14     1 second, to 10 minutes and 30 seconds.

15             MR. LUKIC:  We need audio here.  So if we can see it from

16     Sanction.

17             Can we start now, please.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "Could you now please show me by standing on the spot and

20     indicating with your hand the outer limit of the playing field which was

21     lined with wrecked cars, to the best of your recollection, on the

22     1st of June, 1993.

23             "Once again, could you please stand on the -- on the spot and

24     indicate with your hand as you stand on the spot.

25             "I will now draw a line along this plain with yellow spray paint.

Page 17760

 1             "Could you now please show me by standing on the spot where, to

 2     the best of your ..."

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We would ask for this video to be entered into

 4     evidence, please.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I don't have an objection to the entirety of

 6     this -- these questions and answers coming in, but I do wonder why

 7     we're -- I guess I object to it be sectioned off like this so we can't

 8     hear the entirety of what the witness is being asked to point out.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any problem in tendering the whole of the

10     section of the video.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Not at all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then a number will be reserved.  The parties will

13     agree on what is needed and then that will be uploaded in the way needed.

14             Madam Registrar, the number?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  The number reserved would be D384, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Thank you.

18             [Interpretation] Let us now see a photograph, which is actually a

19     still from this video-clip.  It is an exhibit, D175 MFI, I believe.

20        Q.   Mr. Hogan, do you see soccer goals in this photograph that are

21     about 3 metres wide on this upper surface; that is, on the pitch.

22        A.   I do see soccer nets, goals, on the upper pitch.  I -- I would

23     agree, are approximately 3 metres wide.

24        Q.   [In English] Can you just circle them so we can have this in the

25     evidence.

Page 17761

 1        A.   Now I'm --

 2        Q.   That's one and one is on the left-hand side?

 3        A.   Yes.  I'm just wondering if what I'm looking at is a swing set

 4     rather than a soccer goal.  But it would be at this end, so ...

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have this marked picture introduced into

 7     evidence, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness marked it, but do you have any

 9     recollection on whether there was a goal post there or -- because --

10             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I don't independently recall, but it

11     would be in the right location and it does appear to be -- some sort of a

12     goal post at the other end, so --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, but that's conclusion.  You say you marked

14     what Mr. Lukic asked you to mark.

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Colour is different.  Shape seems to be different.

17     But nevertheless -- heighth may also be different.  We do not know

18     exactly yet.

19             But is it the position by the Defence, Mr. Lukic, that this

20     second item to the left marked by the witness is similar in form, colour,

21     and, therefore, should be a goal post?

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's different colour, definitely.  The right one is

23     white and the left one is red and blue.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's still your position that it's a goal post,

25     despite that.  Is that the position of the Defence?

Page 17762

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then the witness marked what the Defence

 3     claims to be a goal post.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document D175 MFI as marked by the witness

 6     receives number D385, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 8             Now, D175, Mr. Lukic, was MFI'd at the time because it would be

 9     used with another witness.  Do you want this to be separately or would

10     you like to vacate D175?

11             MR. LUKIC:  We can vacate D175 [overlapping speakers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D175 is vacated.

13             We had, by the way, a similar thing, I think, with D126.  But

14     let's first listen to Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We have a problem.  One marking is gone, so can

16     we ask witness to mark again, please.  I apologise.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             THE WITNESS:  Both locations?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Both locations, the goal post at the right, and the

20     brownish structure, claimed by Defence to be a goal post, to the left.

21             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, you caught it?

23             It's lost again?

24             Then I suggest the following:  We re-instate D175 and we say that

25     the witness, when he marked, which, for technical reasons would not be

Page 17763

 1     reserved, he marked a white goal post at the very right end of -- of the

 2     pitch, white in colour, and just before a whitish part of the building.

 3     Then he further marked to the very left of the photograph, again

 4     approximately at the middle of the photograph, a structure which seems to

 5     be an iron structure, brownish, and, at the very, very left hand of this

 6     photograph.

 7             Then I think everything is clear.  We vacate the last number of

 8     the marked photograph, and we'll continue.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we zoom out this picture a bit.  Perhaps it

10     is a -- blurred because of the zooming in, the left goal.  Not possible

11     to zoom out further?  Okay.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, then the last number we assigned

13     for the marked photograph is now vacated.

14                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  To put everything straight on the record:  1D000705,

16     which was ...

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  65 ter number or the document ID 1D00705, which was

19     MFI'd on the 5th of February of this year and received number D175, is

20     now admitted into evidence.  And the marked version of this same

21     photograph is now -- which received number D385, that number is now

22     vacated, and the marking is read out into the transcript earlier by me

23     today.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  By admitted D175, it goes almost without saying that

Page 17764

 1     the MFI status is removed.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Finally.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, the Trial Chamber did its utmost for

 5     us to overcome the technical problems.  I just have another question

 6     about this.

 7             Did you check the pitch above the parking lot in the context of

 8     the explosions of mortar shells?

 9        A.   No, I didn't.

10        Q.   I am left with only one more topic.  I think we'll deal with --

11     deal with it fast.  And it has to do with the humanitarian aid.  I'm

12     talking about incident G7.

13             The civilians at the Dobrinja neighbourhood were targeted with a

14     salvo of three mortar shells of 120-millimetre calibre.  It isn't said

15     where they exploded exactly.  You talked to witness Fata Spahic, who was

16     one of the persons injured in that incident which occurred on the

17     4th of February, 1994.  Let us take a brief look at a clip from your

18     video.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D1312B.  We need an interval from

20     your video, V000-3471A, from 1 minute -- I'm sorry, 1 hour, 40 minutes,

21     16 seconds through 1 hour, 41 minutes, 54 seconds.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "Could you please step to the one side.  I'm going to mark this

24     spot with yellow paint with the figure X and a number 2 beside it.

25             "Could you please show me by standing at the spot where, to the

Page 17765

 1     best of your recollection, the second shell exploded on the

 2     4th of February, 1994."

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Mr. Hogan, is it true that in the Karadzic case you said that

 5     Fata Spahic was not able to register the point of explosion and the place

 6     that she marked as the place of the second explosion is not the place

 7     where the shell exploded that day?

 8        A.   I'm not sure if I said exactly that.  But I do agree that this

 9     location that she showed in the video is not the actual location where

10     the second shell exploded.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Very briefly.  Let us look at an exhibit that has

12     probably received a D number, but I have it as 65 ter 9999.

13             It's a report.  Now I see only one document here, and I meant to

14     ask for page 23 in B/C/S and page 5 in English.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  I don't think that there is a B/C/S document.

16     There are only three English documents uploaded.

17             MR. LUKIC:  That's the page I need.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Okay.  I apologise.  It's the mixed English

19     and --

20             MR. LUKIC:  So in English, we need page 5.  That's it, yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We don't have separate English and B/C/S.  It's

22     one document in three parts --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  -- uploaded.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I accept that.  But we see on the screen what we

Page 17766

 1     need.  We need -- we see the picture, and we see English text if somebody

 2     wants to follow what's written under.  And in English, it's

 3     under number 8245, four last digits.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] In this document, we see a red arrow marking on

 5     the photograph that one of the shells landed close to this lamp-post and

 6     this was confirmed by Witness Sabljica.  He confirmed that a shell

 7     exploded there.

 8             And now -- but, first, please, try to remember this place that is

 9     marked as the location of the explosion.

10             Now we would need again your video, V000-3497-1-A.  The time is

11     1 hour, 39 minutes, 59 minutes -- seconds, up to 1 hour, 41 minutes,

12     3 seconds.

13             MR. LUKIC:  And if we can be assisted by Ms. Stewart again.

14             We can start, please.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah -- you can stop.  I thought -- you can stop.

17             And can we go back and start from the beginning, please.  So

18     1 hour, 39 minutes, 59 seconds.  Yes.  And only to go for four seconds.

19     1 hour, 40 minutes, 3 seconds.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. LUKIC:  You can stop.  You can stop.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember that when you were there, you

23     saw a damaged angle in the pavement precisely near the lamp-post?

24             MR. LUKIC:  We can go a bit further, if you want.  Just a couple

25     of more seconds.

Page 17767

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. LUKIC:  You can stop.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I see that.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   In the course of your investigation, did you note that on that

 6     day, three - not two - shells landed here on that day?

 7        A.   Three in the area.  Not on this paved surface that we're looking

 8     at, but three in this area, yes.

 9        Q.   Did you investigate precisely this missing part of the pavement

10     as one of the sites of explosion?

11        A.   No.  I -- I never concentrated on the actual crater analysis.

12     That was done at the time by the local investigators and by UNPROFOR.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we just see one more

14     photograph.  That is 1D -- [In English] Sorry, we would offer this part

15     of video into evidence as well.  And it's on that -- the same DVD we

16     handed in -- in -- to the Madam Registrar.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I have the same objection that I had to the

18     previous video where we were getting tiny bits and snips out of it.  I

19     just think it's out of context, and, in fairness, the whole video should

20     come in of all of the questions that were asked in her indications.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I again invite the parties to sit together.  You are

22     complaining about selections made.  Now if there are other parts you deem

23     to be relevant, they could be added, but whether we should look at all of

24     it, if both parties find irrelevance in it is, of course, a different

25     matter.

Page 17768

 1             The parties are supposed to sit together and make the final

 2     selection of this video for which the following number would be reserved.

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  The reserved number would be D385, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is -- no.  That's just the reserved number.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   And I just want to show you one more photograph, and it's 1D1303.

 9             [Interpretation] When you were on the spot, this is a photograph

10     that shows the site of the explosion of one of the shells in that

11     incident.  Did you investigate it?

12        A.   Again, I -- I didn't investigate the actual explosion site, but I

13     did speak to witnesses and -- and was shown this location on video in

14     2001.

15        Q.   Did Mrs. Spahic show to you that at this place, at the time of

16     the explosion, there was a door?

17        A.   I don't think that was Mrs. Spahic.  I think that was a separate

18     witness that -- that told me that there was a door here.

19        Q.   Well, one of the witnesses did show you there had been a door

20     there.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you determine that there was, indeed, a door there?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Mr. Hogan, thank you for answering my questions.  This was all on

25     our part today.  Thank you.

Page 17769

 1        A.   You're welcome.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Only I would like to tender this photograph.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The photograph would receive number ...

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1303 receives number D386,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D386 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Before I give you an opportunity to re-examine the witness, could

 9     I deal with a matter briefly.  And -- but I need a few more seconds to

10     prepare it.  My computer is a bit slow.  That explains ...

11             Yes.  Could I draw the attention of the parties to the following:

12     Could we first briefly have a look at P3, e-court page 9.  It's about

13     Scheduled Incident F1.  Could I draw the attention of the parties --

14     since apparently the cemetery plays an important role in the dispute

15     between the parties, could I invite the parties now to closely look at

16     where the cemetery is situated; that is, if you look at a street which

17     goes through the letter K of Sirokaca, then continues in a kind of a

18     cross and then continues as Mehmeda Mujezinovica, and that the cemetery

19     is both to the left and to the right of this road.

20             Could I now have a look at D376.

21             It may be clear that on the map used here by the Defence the

22     cemetery, as indicated by a green area with crescents, is different from

23     what we see on the other map.  And since the parties apparently want to

24     draw conclusions from what you see of a cemetery, this might be relevant.

25     Therefore, it may also be relevant to know exactly what the outlines were

Page 17770

 1     of this cemetery in the early 1990s or when Mr. Hogan took his

 2     photographs.  And in order to make it not further complicated, if you

 3     will look at Google Earth, you'll see that, at this moment, the cemetery

 4     even extends beyond what is shown on P3.  I draw the attention of the

 5     parties to it not to loosely draw conclusions.

 6             And I have one final question for you, Mr. Hogan.  The famous red

 7     dot, is that to the right, as you put it, of the street Zagrici or is it

 8     to the left of it?

 9             THE WITNESS:  It's to the left of it, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It's to the left of it.  Then I see it better.  And

11     we see it on the F1 location in P3, page 9, as well.

12             I wanted to draw the attention the parties to not only apparently

13     trees grow, but cemeteries grow as well.

14             Ms. Hochhauser, any questions in re-examination?

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

16             Can we please see 65 ter 19792 at page 12 on the monitor.

17                           Re-examination by Ms. Hochhauser:

18        Q.   And, Investigator Hogan, as that is coming up, some questions

19     were asked yesterday beginning at page -- transcript page 17697 which the

20     Defence refuted the accuracy of the reading from way-point 5 on that

21     satellite image that's in evidence as P2380.

22             Now I'm showing you now on the monitor page 12 of

23     65 ter 1972 [sic] and that's a photograph that bears the ERN number

24     06197147.  And we see here, I believe you told us earlier it's your car

25     and there's some instruments on the hood of it.  Can you tell us, is that

Page 17771

 1     a picture -- well, tell us what that is a picture of.

 2        A.   I believe that's way-point 2, not way-point 5.  That's in the --

 3     the farm-stead area where we saw the meadow.  And ...

 4        Q.   Sorry, if I could stop you for just one second.  And let me just

 5     check my number.

 6             And I see, actually, according to the index, you're correct, and

 7     I've pulled up the wrong picture, so I'm going to move on and come back

 8     when I've located the right picture.  Let's see ...

 9             Can we turn for a moment, please, to the F1 shooting of

10     Anisa Pita and look at D377 on the screen, please.  Okay.

11             Now can you tell us looking at this photograph from what vantage

12     point or location this picture was taken.  Are you able to orient us?

13        A.   Yes.  Is this the -- the camera was between the two houses,

14     between the fences of the houses.  So it would be approximately, I'd say

15     2 -- 2 to 3 metres south of where young Anisa was standing when she was

16     shot.  And the view-point is towards the south-west.

17        Q.   And I believe you identified that as the cemetery that we were

18     actually just talking about in prior testimony.  From the view-point of

19     where Anisa Pita was located when she was shot, are you able to see this

20     same view or any portion of the cemetery?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Now, have you had the opportunity to go up onto the baba rock

23     area that is the alleged shooting location -- original of fire for this

24     incident, F1?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 17772

 1        Q.   And did you make any observations about whether there were any

 2     Serb military emplacements dug up on that rock?

 3        A.   Yes, there were.

 4             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  So at this point, Your Honours, if I could, I'd

 5     like to add to the Prosecution's 65 ter exhibit list a still from a video

 6     that has the 65 ter number 22509.  We've provisionally assigned the still

 7     65 ter 30326, pending Your Honours' approval to have that still added.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection against addition to the 65 ter list.

 9     Leave is granted.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And if we could see that, please, on the monitor

11     now.  That's 65 ter 30326, please.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Hogan, if you recognise this, can you tell us, please,

13     what it is.

14        A.   Yes, this is the -- a stretch of the Pale road.  The rocky -- the

15     highest point of ground that we see, the rocky point and the little hump

16     of rock beside it, is what's known as Baba Stijena, grandmother rock.

17     And towards the camera, that emplacement, is a fortification and a

18     shelter along the Pale road built right along the edge of the guardrail,

19     and just on the other side of this emplacement the ground drops very

20     steeply -- excuse me, steeply down to the city, to the Sirokaca area.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we looking east or west with the camera?

22             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, we're looking east.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MS. HOCHHAUSER:

25        Q.   And just for clarity, this is -- this was in Serb-held territory

Page 17773

 1     during the conflict and specifically at the time when Anisa Pita was

 2     shot; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my orientation, therefore, the city and

 5     Sirokaca that is all to the left of this road in this direction.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

 8             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would like to tender this photograph, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30326 receives number P2429,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             We are at the time of a break, Ms. Hochhauser.  Could you give us

14     an estimate as to how much more time you would need?

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, I don't think it would be more than

16     ten to 15 minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ten to 15 minutes.  And that will leave sufficient

18     time if there are any further questions.

19             We'll first ask the usher to escort Mr. Hogan out of the

20     courtroom.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes

23     to 2.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 1.16 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.

Page 17774

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  While the witness is escorted into the courtroom,

 2     Mr. Lukic, the -- the -- the photograph which was already marked in

 3     another case.  I think it was MFI'd under the number D126.  It was now

 4     further marked by this witness.  He marked the cemetery on it.

 5             What would you like to do with D126?  And also is there any plan

 6     to tender part of the testimony which was -- which accompanies the

 7     earlier marking on the photographs and about which the witness told us a

 8     few things?

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'd just think about it.

11             Meanwhile, Ms. Hochhauser, I hope I did not confuse you, but ...

12             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I hope so too, Judge.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would like to return to the -- the --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Mr. Mladic speak at low volume level.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'd like to turn back to the question that I

18     started out with on the re-direct examination which was if we could have

19     65 ter 19792 at page 12 again on the monitor.

20        Q.    And I had actually drawn up the correct photograph that I wanted

21     to show you, but I misspoke about which way-point the Defence had

22     contested in their cross-examination.  And it was indeed way-point 2

23     which you identified in that photograph.

24             So if you could tell us, please, specifically what we're looking

25     at in this photograph.

Page 17775

 1        A.   Yes.  This is the road to that farm-stead in that village

 2     Studenkovici.  My vehicle.  The camera is facing east.  On the hood of

 3     the car is a map.  The satellite image which has been entered into

 4     evidence in this trial.  The GPS unit, and I believe my mobile phone.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And is that the location where those instruments are and

 6     where your car is parked from where you took the -- the GPS reading for

 7     way-point 2?

 8        A.   Well, yes, standing right in front of the bumper of that car,

 9     yes.

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I would tender this exhibit, although I believe

11     Mr. Lukic and I are supposed to go through these 110 photos and decide

12     which we will agree to tender together, so I supposed that could wait.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This will be one of those.

14             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll wait for that.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just bit lost.  Will the series of photos be

18     tendered in one -- under one number or ...

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honour, we can do it however the Court

20     would like us to do it.  The -- there is a selection of those photographs

21     already in evidence as Exhibit P2382.  However, the additional ones that

22     have been used and subsequently in cross-examination and now I don't

23     believe we've tendered individually under the idea that we would tender a

24     second set from the 110 after consultation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And this would then be among the photographs in the

Page 17776

 1     second set.

 2             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Yes.  And I read it into the record before but

 3     for clarity it bears the number ERN 06197147.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  Please proceed.

 5             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'd like to turn now to incident F12.

 6        Q.   And today at temporary transcript pages 20 to 21, Mr. Lukic asked

 7     you if you were aware that Mr. van der Weijden objected to your GPS

 8     co-ordinates for this incident and read to you from his testimony.  Do

 9     you recall that line of questioning?

10        A.   I do recall that.

11             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could please have P1130 on the monitor

12     which is Mr. van der Weijden's report and that's at page -- I'd like

13     page 52 of the English and 64.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is under seal.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  The document is under seal.  This particular

16     page, however, I think can be broadcast.  It doesn't have any protected

17     information on it.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In both languages.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Correct.  So it's page 52 of the English and 64

20     of the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Now, as that is coming up on to the monitor, Mr. Hogan, I'm going

22     to read to you a portion of Mr. van der Weijden's testimony, a question

23     and answer, about the diagram that we're about to see on that screen, and

24     that testimony is from 19 January 2013 at transcript lines 648 -- at

25     transcript page 6481, beginning at line 24.  It says:

Page 17777

 1             "Q.  So the lay-out the first diagram titled 'lay-out' of the

 2     incident site is the blue circle marking the location of the victim.

 3     It's slightly more toward where the GPS co-ordinates that you considered

 4     based on the mother's interview with Barry Hogan; is that right?

 5             "A.  The GPS co-ordinates were given to me by the OTP and are the

 6     same as the location where the investigator had the interview, so that

 7     would -- that is it correct.  And that circle is more in that position."

 8             And that refers -- that question and answer refers to the

 9     first -- to the -- to the diagram on the top of this page, lay-out of the

10     incident site.  And can you see the blue circle there indicating the

11     GPS --

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   -- co-ordinates that you had given him?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, I would like to draw your attention to the second photo on

16     that page which puts the blue circle indicating the incident site off of

17     the sidewalk and into the zebra crossing.  And this is the question,

18     having looked at that:  I'm not asking you to tell us your opinion about

19     the correct location of this incident, but are you aware that others who

20     have looked at this incident have considered, based on other evidence,

21     that Mrs. Sokolovic brought you to a spot further onto the sidewalk

22     rather than in the -- as opposed to in the zebra crossing than the

23     incident took place.

24        A.   I'm sorry, but I -- is that a question for me?

25        Q.   Yeah, I'm just -- I'm just asking you not to tell us your opinion

Page 17778

 1     of which one is accurate, but are aware that -- that there is some

 2     difference of opinion as to whether Mrs. Sokolovic took you to the right

 3     location.  But it's not a -- it's not a debate over whether the GPS

 4     co-ordinates are correct but whether she brought you to the correct

 5     location.

 6        A.   Oh I understand now.  Yes, I am aware of the debate, and as I

 7     explained during my direct examination, sometimes the witnesses were not

 8     sure.  Or, I did not coach them, I did not practice them, I did not

 9     provide their statements to them, I did not give them any photographs or

10     show them any videos.

11        Q.   And had -- have you yourself had the opportunity to stand both in

12     the place where Mrs. Sokolovic took you as we saw on the video and also

13     to this -- this place within the zebra crossing that's indicated on the

14     second photograph that we're looking at here, and can you tell us how

15     that affects the line of sight up to the Metalka building?

16        A.   Yes, there is a line of sight from both locations.  Obviously

17     from the zebra crossing more of the Metalka building is -- is visible

18     from the zebra crossing.

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Now, I'm going ask, please, Ms. Stewart to play

20     for us a portion of 65 ter 10275 of which we have assigned the 65 ter

21     number 10275D.  It has to be played from Quick Time.  And this is the

22     360-degree picture for the incident G4.

23             And that is the -- the 1 June 1993 firing at the soccer game that

24     we were discussing in cross-examination.

25        Q.   Is this -- was this 360-degree photograph taken in a similar --

Page 17779

 1     with a similar methodology to what you described to us on direct

 2     examination?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And if can you remind us again when you -- the location of the

 5     camera corresponded with what?

 6        A.   In this case, this -- it corresponded with one of the shell

 7     impact craters which had been pointed out to us which happened to be

 8     underneath this car in the very near foreground and the tripod was set

 9     upon the hood of the car.

10        Q.   Okay.  And if I could ask Ms. Stewart, please, to slowly take us

11     around this photograph, and for you to please narrate to us what it is

12     that we're seeing, and if you need her to stop so you can explain

13     something, just please ask her to do so.

14        A.   To start, we're facing back towards the city.  So straight ahead

15     is Alipasino Polje and the PTT building area, so we're looking north.  As

16     we rotate towards the east, the rising land is Mojmilo hill.  And now

17     we're facing almost directly east.  And we'll continue to rotate towards

18     the south-east and as land falls just behind the corner of that -- if we

19     could just pause there.  Just behind the corner of the apartment building

20     is the front line area, and there's a VRS barracks just down at the

21     bottom of Mojmilo hill, in that area.

22             And if we can continue.  Now moving towards the south.  And just

23     to the right as we rotate, and if we could stop there.  Now we're facing

24     almost due south and that is the location where Mr. Faslic was filmed

25     showing the goal posts from the soccer game.

Page 17780

 1        Q.   When you say "that is," can you describe more specifically on the

 2     photo of the area you're just trying to describe.

 3        A.   Yes, sorry.  The memorial that we can see with a -- what appears

 4     to be a white stone marker with a semi-circle of red post a small posts

 5     around it at the edge of the parking lot.

 6             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If I could ask Ms. Stewart to please zoom in on

 7     that area.  Just a little to the right.  More if it's possible.

 8        Q.   And what we see here is that the memorial and it looks like it's

 9     surrounded by small red objects?  I can't tell what they are.

10        A.   Yes, that's the memorial to the victims of the shelling incident

11     and that's where we saw Mr. Faslic in the previous video.  And I should

12     point out that the location from which this 360 is being shown is what

13     was indicated to us as the second shell crater.  The first one is further

14     to the left or towards the east in this 360.

15        Q.   And is -- is the location -- the location of the actual memorial

16     does that mark anything specific?

17        A.   Just the location of one of the goal posts.  If we could zoom out

18     a little bit perhaps.  And just to the left a little bit -- I'm sorry, to

19     the -- yes, to the left.  And underneath one of these, I'm not sure if

20     it's the white vehicle or the grey vehicle that we're seeing in the

21     middle of the photograph, but the first shell impact crater is underneath

22     one of those vehicles.

23             And -- yes.  Okay.  If we could continue to the right again and

24     all the way around.  We're now looking rotating to the west and the

25     south-west.  And if we could just stop there for a minute.  I'm just, for

Page 17781

 1     my own interest, wondering about that goal post that we marked from the

 2     other place and we can see it behind the --

 3        Q.   I was going to ask -- direct to the same.  If we can zoom in,

 4     please, on this end of the -- of the photograph showing the -- the sort

 5     of -- what we said -- what we distinguished before was the red in colour

 6     or brown in colour as opposed to the white.

 7        A.   And it's right along the left edge of the photograph, behind that

 8     light-post, and looks like it's just not in very good shape, that

 9     goal post.

10        Q.   And would -- do you agree that what we're able to see on this 360

11     if the Chamber were to consider it at some point outside of a courtroom

12     setting and zoom in on this area is also what is depicted and what was

13     discussed in D175?  We can see it with a little more clarity on the 360?

14        A.   Yes, agree, yes.

15        Q.   Just so we see the whole thing, can we please complete the circle

16     and then I'll tender this exhibit.

17        A.   And there we can see the white goal-posts at the opposite end

18     that we saw before.  And now the -- the view-point is towards the west

19     and we're almost completely around to the north again.

20             And we're back at the starting location.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Your Honours, I would tender this 65 ter 10275D.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10275D receives number P2430,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 17782

 1             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  A DVD will be provided.  I hadn't prepared one

 2     in advance since it had come up on re-direct.

 3        Q.   We were -- you were asked -- if I can turn to incident G7 for a

 4     moment.  And that is February 1994 incident in Dobrinja.  And you were

 5     asked about a videotape that you prepared with a witness and some

 6     testimony that you gave in the Karadzic case about the witness going to

 7     the wrong spot.

 8             Do you recall that line of question and answer?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Can you tell us what, if any, kind of preparations were done with

11     her before going to that site?

12        A.   Very few preparations.  We made arrangements to meet at the

13     location, and I told her that we did not want her to speak on the video

14     but I told her what questions I would ask.  I said, Do not demonstrate

15     them to me now, but here are the questions I will ask you to do -- to

16     demonstrate once we start the video.

17             So there was no rehearsal.  There was no preparation, very

18     little.

19        Q.   Do you have any awareness of when the last time she may have been

20     at that site was?

21        A.   I don't think that she had gone back there since the shelling

22     incident -- she didn't live in the area.  She came from the other side of

23     the Mojmilo hill and she only came there because the -- I'm straying.  I

24     don't think that she had been there since the shelling incident.

25             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  If we could look for a moment, please, at

Page 17783

 1     Exhibit P3, at page 4.  And -- in e-court.

 2        Q.   As it's coming up on the screen, Mr. Hogan, you've been asked a

 3     number of questions about various confrontation lines.  I'm just going to

 4     ask you to take a look at page 4 of Exhibit P3 and tell us whether it

 5     corresponds with what you know about the confrontation lines in the

 6     Sarajevo area in 1992.

 7        A.   Yes, in general terms.  Of course, in 1992, there were some

 8     military actions on Zuc hill, which caused that line to move.  But the

 9     rest of the city was pretty stable, as far as the front lines were

10     concerned.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We have no exhibits on the Bench.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There it is.

13             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Okay.

14        Q.   That was my -- the only question I wanted to ask about that page.

15             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  And, Your Honours, with the exception of

16     tendering Exhibits 2403 and 2404, which were marked for identification

17     pending cross-examination, of which I believe there was none on those two

18     exhibits, my -- my redirect examination is concluded.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Let me just see.  You said you ... yes.

20     You still want to tender 2403 and 2404.

21             Any objections?

22             No objections.

23             Madam Registrar.  Numbers are known.  Yes, they were marked for

24     identification.  Therefore, P2403 and P2404 are admitted into evidence.

25             Mr. Lukic, any need for re-examination of the witness?

Page 17784

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I have just one question.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hogan, my learned friend asked you about

 5     D377, when Anisa Pita was wounded, whether the cemetery was visible or

 6     not.  You told us that trees were planted after the incident.  If it

 7     weren't for the trees, would you be able to see the cemetery?  Is there

 8     any -- anything to block the line of sight toward -- between the injury

 9     site and the Muslim cemetery, such as a house or any other structure?

10             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I'm going to object to this question, only in

11     terms of the lack of precision.  I think the witness told us, referring

12     to Exhibit D513, that that specific circled tree had been planted.  And

13     so I don't think it's a -- it's correct statement.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Let's see D377.

15        Q.   You were asked based on that picture.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- it's seems that we are now -- I -- did I see

17     you're referring to the other picture taken from the spot where the child

18     was hit?

19             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  Well, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  With the markings on it.  This is the Defence one.

21             MS. HOCHHAUSER:  I just am saying that I believe that the

22     testimony referring to trees being planted referred to that other picture

23     which is also a Defence exhibit, 513.  And so I just wanted that to be

24     clear, that -- I don't believe that there was talk of trees being planted

25     in regard to this view.

Page 17785

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Are the trees of which you said that were planted subsequently,

 3     and I'm referring to photograph D377, are those trees visible here in

 4     this photograph?

 5        A.   I'm not sure.  I would have to compare them to the -- this view

 6     to the 360-degree photograph that -- that we looked at earlier, which --

 7     which can -- which was filmed at the site where the little girl was

 8     standing.

 9             So I'm not sure if this leafy tree in the -- in the -- on the

10     right-hand side is the same one or not.

11        Q.   Do you know what kind of tree it was of which they said to you

12     that it had -- it was planted subsequently?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Do you know when this cemetery that we can see here was set --

15     was laid out?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is all I had.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

20             Then since the Chamber has no further questions for you either,

21     Mr. Hogan, I'd like to thank you very much for appearing in this

22     courtroom and for having answered all the questions that were put to you,

23     put to you by the party, put to you by the Bench, and you are excused.

24             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

Page 17786

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, if I may, Your Honour.

 4             You asked me at our temporary transcript on page 66, line 11,

 5     about D126.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  When I opened it, it's something completely

 8     different.  It is in connection with the school for blind.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I -- I do agree that it's a bit different.  I

10     might not have fully understood it.  But I thought that it was MFI'd at

11     an earlier stage without any -- but it may well be that it was just the

12     school for the blind photograph.  And let me have a look at it so that

13     I'm not ...

14             MR. LUKIC:  I think in this picture we only have direction where

15     school of blind is.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, but now it was quite a while ago, I

17     think, that this one was also marked for identification to be tendered at

18     a later stage.  And I wondered whether it would be with this witness

19     or ...

20             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously not.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Obviously not.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to go back to the -- I have to go back to the

24     transcript.  That must be the transcript of the 11th of January of this

25     year, where the Defence has tendered it at that time, but also said we

Page 17787

 1     would not rely on the markings of the locations as we find them here,

 2     pending a clarification through another witness.

 3             So apparently we thought that it might be through this witness

 4     and can even be that you have announced that it would be through this

 5     witness, but if not, then we just leave it as it is.  This document is

 6     MFI'd only.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  When I said it, I probably meant our expert

 8     witnesses, ballistic expert witnesses.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That could be.  I don't have a recollection of that.

10             Then this matter being clarified, Mr. Groome.

11             MR. GROOME:  Your Honours, can I please deal with a brief matter

12     in private session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 17788











11  Page 17788 redacted.  Private session.















Page 17789

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             If there's nothing else to be dealt with, we'll adjourn, and

 7     we'll resume not tomorrow, but Thursday, the 3rd of October, at 9.30 in

 8     the morning in this same courtroom, I.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

11                           October, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.