Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19319

 1                           Thursday, 14 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I'd

12     like to briefly deal with some -- with a follow-up on documents which

13     were tendered through Witness Barry Hogan.

14             The Chamber would like to address some pending issues with

15     respect to the materials tendered through Witness Barry Hogan on the

16     1st of October of this year.

17             In relation to D381, the exhibit numbers reserved for extracts of

18     the video bearing Rule 65 ter numbers 1D1310 and 22311F, the Chamber

19     recalls that it invited the parties to agree on which portions of this

20     video, and any related testimonial material from a previous case, should

21     be received into evidence.  You can find this on transcript pages 17743

22     to 17748.  The Chamber has yet to be informed of any such agreement.

23             In relation to D382, the exhibit number reserved for the video

24     bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D1312, the Chamber notes that this video was

25     marked for identification, pending provision of the extract by the

Page 19320

 1     Defence.  This can be found at transcript pages 17756 to 57.  Or perhaps

 2     I should read it in full.  That is, 17757.  The Chamber was provided with

 3     a DVD containing the video on the 7th of November and therefore admitted

 4     D382 into evidence.

 5             With regard to D384 and D385, exhibit numbers reserved for other

 6     portions of the larger video bearing ERN V000-3497-1-A, the Chamber

 7     recalls that it asked the parties to agree on which portions of the video

 8     should be received as evidence and the best means of doing so.  This can

 9     be found at transcript pages 17760 and 17767 to 17768.  The Chamber notes

10     that on the 7th of November, 2013, it received a DVD from the Defence

11     containing a video bearing Rule 65 ter number 1D1312A, however, it has

12     not received any indication from the parties with respect to an agreement

13     on this matter.

14             Additionally, with regard to Rule 65 ter number 19792, the

15     Chamber notes the parties indicated that they would agree on which

16     portions of the photographs should be admitted.  This can be found at

17     transcript pages 17774 to 17776.  Similarly, the Chamber has yet to be

18     informed of any agreement on the matter.

19             The Chamber again invites the parties to provide, by the 22nd of

20     November, updates on these matters, as well as make available any

21     corresponding videos or photographs the parties wish to be admitted.

22             Finally, given that transcript pages 17781 to 17782 are unclear

23     with respect to the admission of P2430, the Chamber clarifies for the

24     record that P2430 was admitted into evidence.

25             And this concludes the Chamber's comments on the matter, and


Page 19321

 1     invites the usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kalbarczyk, I presume.

 4             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

 5     solemn declaration, the text of which is handed out to you.  I would like

 6     to invite to you make that solemn declaration.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  JANUSZ KALBARCZYK

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Kalbarczyk.

12             Is the Prosecution ready to start its examination?

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kalbarczyk, you'll first be examined by

15     Ms. MacGregor.  You'll find her to your right and she is counsel for the

16     Prosecution.

17             Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Examination by Ms. MacGregor:

20        Q.   Good morning.  Can you please first state your full name for the

21     record.

22        A.   Janusz Kalbarczyk.

23        Q.   According to your statement, you were a member of the Polish air

24     force.  Can you please provide the year of retirement and the rank that

25     you retired at.

Page 19322

 1        A.   I left the armed forces in 1996.  That was in September.  I was

 2     then a colonel.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that in April 1995 you were seconded from the

 4     Polish air force to the UN to serve in Bosnia as a Military Observer?

 5        A.   Yes, this is true.  This is correct.

 6        Q.   And did you testify about that experience at this Tribunal in the

 7     Karadzic trial?

 8        A.   Yes, I testified against -- in the case against Karadzic.

 9        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review parts of that testimony

10     before today?

11        A.   Yes.  I had the opportunity, and it helped me a lot.

12        Q.   Was that testimony true, to the best of your knowledge, when you

13     gave it?

14        A.   Yes, it was true to my best knowledge.

15        Q.   And you were today asked the same answers -- excuse me, the same

16     questions, would you give the same answers, in substance?

17        A.   Let's try.  I don't really know what the questions are going to

18     be asked.

19        Q.   My question is:  If today I asked you the exact same questions

20     that you were asked in Karadzic, do you believe that you would provide

21     the same answers, in substance?

22        A.   I hope I would.  If the memory doesn't fail me.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I ask the Court Officer to please show

24     65 ter 30456.  This is the witness's ICTI witness statement -- ICTY.  And

25     please show page 1.

Page 19323

 1        Q.   There's a document that will come to your screen shortly.  And I

 2     ask you if you recognise that document, once you see it.

 3        A.   Yes, this is my statement.  It has been signed by me.

 4        Q.   Did you have a chance to review the statement prior to coming to

 5     court today?

 6        A.   Yes, I had the opportunity to review the statement.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I ask the Court Officer to please show page 4

 8     in both the English and the B/C/S copy.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, I'm going to bring your attention to the

10     statement where it refers to the second day of your imprisonment.

11             In the penultimate paragraph of this page, and it starts with the

12     phrase "at about 11.00," the final sentence of that paragraph says that

13     were not interviewed.  Were you, in fact, interviewed on the second day

14     of your imprisonment?

15        A.   Yes.  It is difficult to say it was an interview.  It was my

16     statement, a very short statement, about what has happened.

17        Q.   If you were asked the same -- about the same -- about the

18     substance of these matters again, would you give the same answers that

19     are contained in this statement?

20        A.   Probably, yes.

21        Q.   And having taken the solemn oath today, do you affirm that the

22     information in this document, along with the change we've just discussed,

23     is accurate and truthful?

24        A.   Yes, they are truthful.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30456.  I also


Page 19324

 1     tender excerpts from the witness's Karadzic testimony which has been

 2     assigned 65 ter 30457.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [No interpretation].

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't hear anything, Mr. Stojanovic --

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Mr. Kalbarczyk, you said twice that you would probably give the

 8     same answers.  Is it your recollection that the answers were truthful and

 9     that's the reason why you think you would give the same answers?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that the same meaning

11     word for word.  I used the word "probably" because I would be referring

12     to the same, same meaning, but I don't know whether I would be using

13     exactly the same words.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  Madam Registrar.

15             Thank you, Mr. Kalbarczyk.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30456 receives number P2801.

17             And document 30457 receives number P2802, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P2801 and P2802 -- yes, I'm sorry I misspoke,

19     although I'm corrected by the transcriber which is okay.  So, therefore,

20     P2801 and P2802 are admitted into evidence.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  May I please read a

22     brief summary of the witness's evidence?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Ms. MacGregor.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Janusz Kalbarczyk was a Polish United Nations

25     Military Observer who was deployed to Pale in April 1995.  Mr. Kalbarczyk


Page 19325

 1     was taken hostage on 26 May 1995 and, along with other UNMOs, was

 2     threatened with death and used as a human shield by VRS forces.  The

 3     witness was released on 13 June 1995.

 4             If I may continue with some questions for the witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any additional questions, you may put

 6     them to the witness.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you very much Your Honour.

 8        Q.   I have a few brief questions, sir, about your background as an

 9     UNMO.

10             Within your UN contingent - not within the Polish air force -

11     what was your rank?

12        A.   I was then colonel.  I was deputy commander of the air force

13     school in the Polish armed forces.

14        Q.   And within the UN contingent, what was your rank?

15        A.   I was then major.

16        Q.   What were your duties as a UN Military Observer in Pale?

17        A.   As a UN -- UNMO, I was subordinated to the Sarajevo Sector.

18     There were a few teams deployed on the Bosnian Serbs aside and also on

19     the side of the opponents, Muslims.  My main duty was to control the

20     observance of the truce, armistice, that was signed by both sides, also

21     to follow any changes that could have taken place in the territory in the

22     area that we were asked to supervise and also to report to the sector

23     about any alarming changes, movements of the armies that we have noticed

24     or any use of arms or weapons, which should not have been used.  Most

25     generally -- and also being on duty on the radio in order to have -- to

Page 19326

 1     be in contact with the command of the sector, reporting on all major

 2     events that could have happened in the territory that we patrolled.

 3             The main job was to be part of the patrol unit.  There were

 4     usually two observers on the patrol.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kalbarczyk.  I notice that the translation that

 6     came through, and this is at line 17 of page 7, it says in the English:

 7     "My main duty was to control" basically the armistice.  Did you say "to

 8     control" or "to patrol"?

 9        A.   Supervising, patrolling, whether this armistice that was signed

10     was -- was observed.  We had a right to -- to -- to check the combat

11     check-points of the army, Serbian army, where they had their cannons, for

12     example, where there was a group of soldiers who stayed there 24 hours

13     per day.  We were allowed to check whether the weapons have not been

14     used, whether there were not more people than the armistice provided for.

15             So that was the -- that was our duties.

16        Q.   And you've said that there were teams deployed both on the

17     Bosnian Serb side and also on the Bosnian Muslim side.  Which side were

18     you deployed on while you were in Pale?

19        A.   I was on the Bosnian -- Bosnian Serbian side.

20        Q.   And were you armed as an UNMO?

21        A.   No.  All observers, Military Observers, never carried any arms.

22        Q.   A quick clarification.  In your statement, you refer to Serb

23     forces as the BSA.  What does that abbreviation mean?

24        A.   Bosnian Serbian Army, as far as I remember.  This is how I

25     remembered it.  When I was arrested, the -- the officer who -- who -- the

Page 19327

 1     officer -- this is the way that the officer introduced to us the soldiers

 2     who arrested us.

 3        Q.   Did you later come to hear another term to describe the Bosnian

 4     Serb forces, other than the BSA?

 5        A.   Not that I recall.  No, I encountered no other terms.  This is

 6     what I remember.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, if there's any unclarity in the last

 8     paragraph of the first page, in substance, about the

 9     Vojska Republike Srpske, BSA, then please ask focussed questions on what

10     might confuse, but until now it seems pretty clear to the Chamber.

11             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Moving on to the events at the end of May 1995.  In your

13     statement, you describe that a police official with a pistol ordered you

14     and the other UNMOs present to put your hands up.  Did that official aim

15     the pistol?

16        A.   Yes, he did.  He put a pistol to my head.  This official was very

17     nervous.  His hands were shaking.  And he informed us that if the

18     bombardments repeat, they have the order to shoot us.

19        Q.   Moving on to the first location that you were taken to where you

20     were in a ravine and handcuffed to a lightning rod.  Did you later learn

21     the name of that place?

22        A.   Yes, afterwards.  I didn't know for the first time what it was.

23     I was there for the first time, ever.  And then I learned that it was an

24     area where we were prohibited from patrolling.  We could not go there.

25        Q.   Did you ever learn the name of the place?

Page 19328

 1        A.   A colleague used the name Jahorinski Potok, and this is what I

 2     think it was.

 3        Q.   In the four to five hours that you were handcuffed to the

 4     lightning rod, can you estimate what the temperature was?

 5        A.   [No interpretation].

 6             [In English] I don't have communication.

 7             [Interpretation] On that day, it was very, very hot.  I think

 8     maybe around 26 to 27 degrees.  No clouds.

 9        Q.   And can I check that you are now receiving the interpretation?

10        A.   Yes, I can hear you.

11        Q.   Can you hear the Polish interpretation of my questions?

12        A.   Yes, I do -- yes, I can.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             At that time, were you told what was going to happen to you next?

15        A.   Never were we informed what will happen to us.  Apart from the

16     first day, when we were arrested, when the officer clearly stated that

17     their task would be to kill us if the attack would be repeated.

18        Q.   During the time that you were handcuffed to the lightning rod,

19     what were you thinking about what would happen to you next?

20        A.   I focussed on whether the attack would be repeated or not.

21     Because if the air-strike was repeated, our chance of survival would be

22     very small.

23        Q.   Were you told or did you understand why you were being handcuffed

24     to the installation?

25        A.   At that time, it was not hard to guess that we were being used as

Page 19329

 1     human shields.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, the Chamber wonders whether if the

 3     statement says it was very warm, whether we would have to know whether it

 4     was 26, 27 or 25 degrees.  Similarly, the statement says:

 5             "Nobody explained to me why I was being handcuffed."

 6             Unless you think that the witness would depart from that

 7     statement, I wonder whether it should be asked again.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  It won't be asked again, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  I'd actually like to now show the witness two

11     video-clips, and, Your Honours, these are segments from the same video.

12     The video has a 65 ter number 22417.  This is a compilation of Bosnian

13     Serb TV news broadcasts, and the two segments we have chosen are relevant

14     to the witness's testimony.

15             And if I can ask Ms. Stewart to show 22417B, the whole segment

16     will be played, which is 52 seconds.

17        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, if can you watch the video and at the end I will

18     ask you some questions.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The UNPROFOR members have -- the

21     UNPROFOR members have also been positioned at other strategically

22     important facilities that might be targets of NATO air-strikes.

23             "[In English] From the air ..."

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It is the international community

25     and its decisions who have brought this situation upon these people.

Page 19330

 1     Whether they are going to survive depends on NATO actions."

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I noticed that the substance of the

 3     interview was not translated.  The full transcript has been uploaded into

 4     e-court into B/C/S and English.  It's also been provided to the

 5     interpreters.  I don't know if you want -- can rely on that in e-court or

 6     if you want it to be played again.  I won't be asking any questions about

 7     the substance of the audio.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If the -- if the Prosecution does not rely on any of

 9     the words spoken, Mr. Stojanovic, would we need to play it twice or is it

10     sufficient that we have looked at the images?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we re-play

12     it once again.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll re-play it, and the interpreters can rely on

14     the transcripts that were distributed.

15             Ms. MacGregor.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:

17        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, we're going to play the clip again with

18     translation -- excuse me, with interpretation of the bit of the

19     interview, with the reporter speaking.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can ask Ms. Stewart to again play the clip.

21     Thank you.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  "Reporter 1:  The UNPROFOR members have also

24     been positioned at other strategically important facilities that might be

25     targets of NATO air-strikes.

Page 19331

 1             "Reporter 2:  Are you afraid?

 2             "Unidentified UN soldier:  Of course.

 3             "Reporter 2:  Why?

 4             "Unidentified UN soldier:  I don't know what you're doing for me.

 5             "Reporter 2:  Are you afraid from the air?  From the NATO

 6     bombardments?

 7             "Unidentified UN soldier:  I am afraid.  I don't know when will

 8     be NATO bombarding.

 9             "Reporter:  It is the international community and its decisions

10     who have brought the situation upon these people.  Whether they are going

11     to survive depends on NATO actions."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think interpretation was now [Realtime transcript

13     read in error "not"] provided in English, B/C/S, French and Polish.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, can you identify the person sitting in front of

17     the spherical structure and being interviewed?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When I said that interpretation was provided, I said

19     it was "now provided" rather than "not provided."

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:

22        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, can you identify the person sitting in front of

23     the spherical structure and being interviewed, please.

24        A.   Of course.  It is myself, and a reporter that accompanied us in

25     the car, in the vehicle, that we were transported in.

Page 19332

 1        Q.   Are you able to determine if this is the first or second day of

 2     your imprisonment?

 3        A.   It is the first day.

 4        Q.   And were you told what would happen to you next?

 5        A.   No.  No, I wasn't.  When we arrived, before I was handcuffed to

 6     the antenna, the reporter gave me something to drink.  I asked to be

 7     given something to drink because for eight hours I had not eaten anything

 8     or drunk anything and I was desperate for water.  And the reporter

 9     implied that I should not be afraid, that they would just be filming.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders 22417B into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22417B receives number P2803,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P2803 is admitted.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  This time I'm going to show the witness another

17     videotape and this has 65 ter 22417D.  If I can ask Ms. Stewart to start

18     at two minutes into the clip and to pause immediately at the two-minute

19     mark.

20             That's great.

21        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, can you identify the man in camouflage in the

22     image in front of you.

23        A.   Yes, I can.  Yes, that was a colleague from my team, a Brazilian.

24     We called him Harley.  I don't know whether it was his first name or

25     whether it was his last name, but that's how we referred to him.  He

Page 19333

 1     called me Janusz; I called him Harley.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can ask Ms. Stewart to continue the clip to

 4     the end, please.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We had no problems with the Serb

 7     army.  I wanted to send a message to my family not to worry, that things

 8     are fine.

 9             "Q.  Were you given food and drink?

10             "A.  Yes, both food and drink.  We could also wash ourselves.

11             "That is what UNPROFOR members held by the Serbs had to say."

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The transcript does not

13     reflect the footage.  We tried to follow but it was too quick.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, you have heard the -- do you rely on

15     the words of the text spoken or --

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  What's been provided into the record is

17     sufficient for the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If it is accurate.  That was the issue.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  My understanding is that is accurate.  I don't

20     know if I'm misunderstanding the interpreter.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If the interpreter said it was too quick.  Has the

22     Defence listened in?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did listen to the

24     footage but my knowledge of English is insufficient to judge the

25     accuracy.  However we have been provided with a transcript of this

Page 19334

 1     conversation, and I can't say off the cuff whether it is accurate or not.

 2     But we do have the transcript and, last night, we compared the transcript

 3     provided by the OTP to what we have, and it is identical to what the

 4     witness said.  We have no objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then everyone is invited to carefully look not only

 6     at the interpretation given in court but also to have a look at the

 7     transcript provided and I take it attached to the exhibit.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Unless you would have any very specific questions

10     about the words spoken, I would suggest that we proceed.

11             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Can you identify the person being interviewed in the -- most of

13     the clip?

14        A.   Yes, that is myself.  And -- for the second time in the same

15     place.

16        Q.   What do you mean by "the second time"?

17        A.   Because the first time we saw the first clip and it was the

18     26th of May.  And the second time, I was taken with another colleague,

19     with that Brazilian, and it was on 27, most likely, if I remember

20     correctly.  That was on the second day.

21        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

22        A.   To the same place, but the interview was about whether we were

23     given food, whether we were able to wash ourselves, and then I was asked

24     if my life depends on the air-strike.  And that was the mystification,

25     that we were handcuffed all the time.  And that's it.

Page 19335

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, I heard the word, which is missing at

 3     the transcript at this moment, as "mystification."  Now, it was not

 4     entirely clear what the witness meant in this context by that expression.

 5     Could you please clarify.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yeah.  I was trying to figure that out myself.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kalbarczyk, you used a word that didn't come through clearly

 8     in the translation.  It sounded -- it was in the sentence --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it is in this transcript.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  It is now in this transcript.

11        Q.   You said something like:  "That was the mystification, that were

12     handcuffed all the time."  Is that what you said, and if so, what did you

13     mean by it?

14        A.   What I meant was that a person who was watching that clip on TV

15     would be under the impression that I was there for 24 hours and that all

16     the time or longer than that I was handcuffed, and it was not the case.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  The Prosecution tenders 22417D into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22417D receives number P2804,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P2804 is admitted.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:

24        Q.   My last questions, Mr. Kalbarczyk, deal with after the incident.

25             After your release, did you return to serve as an UNMO in the

Page 19336

 1     former Yugoslavia?

 2        A.   Yes.  I was given a ten-day leave.  I returned to my country, and

 3     then I was back on my mission.  I came back to my sector.  And once I

 4     returned to the sector, I was deployed in a different sector, and that

 5     was the Dubrovnik sector.

 6             In the Dubrovnik sector, I was deployed until end of November or

 7     beginning of October.  I cannot recall the exact -- end of September and

 8     the beginning of October.  I cannot recall the exact date.

 9             And then, from that sector, I was transferred again to the Tuzla

10     sector.

11        Q.   How did the experience of being a hostage impact your sense of

12     security as an UNMO for the rest of your time in the former Yugoslavia?

13        A.   Well, it impacted me fundamentally because I noticed that

14     whenever we were going through the Serb check-points, my body was

15     reacting in a strange way whenever I could see the Serbs.  And I never

16     experienced that before.  I was nervous and I was anxious.  That was my

17     main observation that I could detect.

18        Q.   And did you ever tell your wife and children the details of your

19     imprisonment?

20        A.   To be quite honest, until this day, I have never spoken about it

21     with my wife or my family.  All they knew was what I said to the media

22     and to the press.

23        Q.   Why didn't you tell them the details of what happened?

24        A.   I noticed when I was giving interviews to the press, because the

25     first longer interview I give at -- back at my work, when I was on that


Page 19337

 1     leave, when -- after my release.  I noticed at that time that it was

 2     difficult for me to talk about that, and I noticed that it made me very

 3     emotional.  I felt like I would cry.  I wanted to spare that for my

 4     family.  And I think that in the near future, after 20 years, it will be

 5     a good opportunity to talk about it now when I will be calm.

 6        Q.   Thank you for your answers and your testimony.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, the Prosecution has no further

 8     questions.

 9             I do have associated exhibits, and I can deal with those now or

10     after.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we better deal with it at the very end of

12     the testimony.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to cross-examine witness?

14             Mr. Kalbarczyk, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

15     You find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Colonel, good morning.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   Could you please clarify some of your answers provided to my

20     learned friend from the Prosecution with respect to your tasks.

21             Can you tell the Court what was the area you and your team were

22     obliged to monitor?

23        A.   At this point, I'm not able to give you a precise description.

24     We had a map, and on that map, it was marked the whole area that we were

25     responsible to supervise.  And the points where Serbian troops were

Page 19338

 1     deployed were clearly marked on that map.

 2        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... provided precise

 3     instruction, in terms of what the obligations of the warring parties

 4     were, with respect to honouring the cease-fire agreement?

 5        A.   The team leader had such instructions and the team leader would

 6     give tasks to each patrol.  We had general knowledge regarding our tasks

 7     during the -- during patrolling and also during the time when we were at

 8     Pale for personal reasons, to get supplies or to take some rest, and to

 9     get in touch with local people.

10        Q.   Were you obliged while supervising and inspecting check-points

11     held by the VRS to announce your arrival?

12        A.   Yes.  Each patrol was obliged to give a notice of the upcoming

13     visit.

14        Q.   In case you observed breaches of the cease-fire agreement, were

15     you obliged to put it in writing in your daily reports, in order to

16     inform your sector?

17        A.   I did not receive translation.

18             [In English] I don't have translate.

19        Q.   Let me try again.

20             The question, Colonel, was this:  In case you observed violations

21     of the cease-fire agreement, were you obliged to inform your sector in

22     writing, in terms of what you had observed?

23        A.   No.  We had to report to the team leader.  And if the team leader

24     was absent, then there was a deputy team leader.  Or we would report that

25     on the radio to the sector command in Sarajevo.  And we were supposed to

Page 19339

 1     report any doubts or any comments that we wanted to share.

 2        Q.   On the 13th of April, 1995, you arrived in Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina.  How many days later did you take up your duties in Pale?

 4        A.   On the 13th of April, I was in Zagreb, and I came to Sarajevo two

 5     or three days later.  Because in Zagreb, we had the first training.  We

 6     were learning about our area of responsibility, learning about -- about

 7     the situation, general situation, in the former Yugoslavia.  And, after

 8     two or three days, when I was in the Sarajevo sector, there, there was

 9     one- or two-day training first and then -- and I didn't know where I

10     would be deployed.  Then my deployment was to Pale.

11        Q.   I asked you this in order to determine what the time was when you

12     were in Pale.  So it was in the second half of April 1995, and you seem

13     to have stayed there until May 26, 1995.

14             During that time, were you able to observe any cease-fire

15     violations by any of the sides, and did you inform your superiors about

16     it?

17        A.   Yes, I was a young observer in this area, nearly a month only.

18     My main task was to participate, to be part of the patrol with a senior

19     colleague who has been there for a longer period of time.  And as far as

20     I remember, there were no incidents, important incidents, testifying to

21     any -- or proving violations of the cease-fire agreement between the

22     parties.  The relations between the teams of the Serbian check-points, as

23     far as I could have observed, were very good, friendly.  Nothing

24     indicated that would change.

25        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  I ask you that because, in your statement,

Page 19340

 1     you say that some five days before the air-strikes, you had received an

 2     order by which your movement was restricted and that it was recommended

 3     by your staff, by your headquarters, to adhere to the restriction

 4     instructions.

 5             Do you know what the reason was to impose such restrictions?

 6        A.   First of all, this order did not pertain to me personally but to

 7     all the teams that were deployed in Pale, and I learned about this from

 8     my team leader.  I learned that we could not perform our regular duties,

 9     that is, patrolling.  And -- and the headquarters in Sarajevo confirmed

10     that they -- we should stay where we were housed, where our team was

11     resident, and all we could do, we could only go to do some necessary

12     shopping.  We could only buy some food articles that we needed.

13        Q.   Was the reason made known to you why your headquarters advised

14     you to refrain from any further activity?

15        A.   Generally the command -- the headquarters do not explain to the

16     soldiers their decisions.  We didn't know why.  The order was an order

17     and had to be obeyed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'm looking at the clock.  And, at

19     the same time, the Chamber noticed that Mr. Mladic would like to consult

20     with counsel.  Therefore, let's take a break now.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kalbarczyk, we'll take a break of 20 minutes,

23     and we'd like to see you back after that.  You may follow the usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

Page 19341

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 4     the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   Colonel, did you have any information to the effect that, at the

 9     time, there was an ultimatum from NATO directed against the VRS, the Army

10     of Republika Srpska?

11        A.   No, I did not have any such information.

12        Q.   Please clarify to us the following.  Do you remember if the NATO

13     air-strikes had been in progress for two days before the people you

14     described took you to Jahorinski Potok, or was it -- did it go on only

15     for that one day, according to your memory?

16        A.   I can say that these air-strikes, which are mentioned, I felt

17     them, and I can confirm they lasted one day.  Whether there were any

18     other strikes in any other places, I don't know that.

19        Q.   Colonel, if you remember, can you tell us where you were on the

20     previous day, the 25th of May, 1995?

21        A.   I was on a three-day rest in Zagreb; and if I remember, I

22     returned in the evening on the 25th of May.  It was strange to me that I

23     was the only one on a plane flying to Sarajevo.  Usually there were more

24     people.

25             On the 26th, I didn't know what had happened.

Page 19342

 1        Q.   After you landed at Sarajevo airport on the 25th of May, can you

 2     give us the precise hour at which you arrived at your premises at Pale?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, what's the relevance of all this?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave, I

 5     would like to use a portion of a video-clip which shows that there had

 6     been shelling on the 25th as well and there was also a witness to

 7     corroborate that.  I just want to find out whether it happened before or

 8     after the witness's arrival.  The first shelling took place on the 25th.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you mean the shelling, NATO air-strikes?  Or

10     other shelling?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The NATO air-strikes, the first

12     ones, were on the 25th, at the time when, according to the memory of this

13     witness, he arrived in Sarajevo by plane from Zagreb and was transferred

14     to Pale.  We want to check whether it was before or after that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness told us that he was unaware of any NATO

16     air-strikes on days previous to the one when he noticed it.  So ... and,

17     apart from that, even if they would have been there, if there's

18     documentary evidence on that, whether the witness heard it or not, is

19     that -- makes that a difference?  Or are you testing the reliability of

20     the witness in this context?  Then go directly to the issue, I would say.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Case Manager please

24     help me, because I would like to show a section from V000-0515, from the

25     beginning of the video-clip until 2.38.  There is also a part which is an

Page 19343

 1     introduction in voice-over but -- but we are not interested in that.  We

 2     just want to show the rest because at this moment we don't have a

 3     transcript of that section.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is it in order to establish that

 5     those air-strikes took place, or is it for any other purpose that you

 6     want us to look at the video?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, in order to

 8     establish how the air-strikes came about and to describe the atmosphere

 9     at Pale at the time when this witness arrived there on that day.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any dispute about air-strikes on the

11     25th of May?

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can limit ourselves to what then remains the

14     purpose of showing it.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Could we now play it until 2:38.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, we have first patiently looked at

20     one minute of just text which you say you would not rely on.  Then we

21     looked at a -- some pictures of the population apparently running, seemed

22     to be in some panic.

23             Is there any dispute about that NATO air-strikes may have -- that

24     NATO air-strikes may have caused the population to start running and

25     being panicking about what happened?

Page 19344

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  No, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the third thing I observe is that apparently --

 3     but perhaps we should ask the witness first.

 4             When you arrived in Sarajevo on the evening of the 25th, was it

 5     still daylight?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was almost dusk.  We had to

 7     switch on the lights in our car when we were driving towards Pale.  But

 8     in Sarajevo, it was still sort of -- I mean, it was still daylight but it

 9     was almost twilight.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The -- Mr. Stojanovic, we have seen that at least

11     major portions of the video are in what seems to be full daylight.  So,

12     for many, many reasons, there's only a limited relevance for what we

13     played.

14             Now if you want to put questions on the relevant portions, please

15     do so.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Colonel, did you have any trouble, any problems, or was your

18     movement restricted when you arrived at your headquarters on that

19     afternoon of the 25th of May?

20        A.   When I returned to my team, in my vehicle there were people from

21     my team because they wanted to escort me.  I learned in the vehicle that

22     our patrolling was restricted.  But, on that day, it was quiet.  It was

23     eerily quiet.  At the check-points, everything was peaceful, calm.

24     Nothing indicated that the next day would be as it was, as you showed.

25        Q.   Let us now together --

Page 19345

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- Witness, the one good reason perhaps for

 2     which we looked at someone reporting on television is that it indicates a

 3     date.  From your answer, I took it that you considered the images to

 4     relate to the 26th of May; whereas it appears from the video shown that

 5     the television report dates back to the 25th of May.

 6             Is there -- the parties do agree that the NATO air-strikes

 7     started already on the 25th of May.  So, therefore, Witness, if you say,

 8     On the day I arrived it was not as it was on the following day, and you

 9     suggested that that was shown in the television report, that is then most

10     likely a mistake, because the television report seems to date the 25th.

11     Now is there any chance --

12             Mr. Mladic is supposed to remain seated, and I'm not going to

13     repeat that again, Mr. Mladic.

14             Either you may not have been present on the 25th of May when

15     air-strikes were conducted, or is there any chance that you may have

16     mixed up that dates that you arrived, for example, on the evening of the

17     24th, and that you were -- that the events you describe happened on the

18     25th.

19             Could I ask you to consider that possibility.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am certain that it could not have

21     happened on the 25th.  If I had returned on the 24th, I would have said

22     that I was witness to such situations.  But this situation reminds of the

23     26th, in the morning, when, before the main strike into the most

24     sensitive area, that is, ammo depot, there were sirens, the population

25     was running in panic.  They wanted to hide.  And I cannot say whether

Page 19346

 1     these images are from Pale or any other place.  But I witnessed similar

 2     situations on the 26th, between 8.00 and 10.00.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Which does not exclude for the possibility that the

 4     same happened the day before, when you had not arrived in Pale.

 5             Mr. Stojanovic --

 6             Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking, no standing.  Otherwise, you will

 7     know what the possible consequences are.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Witness, we're not talking about the morning hours of the 26th.

11     Let us clarify that part of your statement.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we get P2801 on our screens,

13     please.

14        Q.   That is your statement.  And I would like to see page 2 in both

15     languages, and let us focus on paragraph 4.

16             Colonel, you say -- or, rather, here you speak about the moment

17     when, on the 26th of May, on your premises, around 10.00, you were

18     detained by three men who had entered your premises.

19             But what I like to know, and you have this in front of you, you

20     say that, according to your memory, three men wearing police uniforms

21     arrived.  In a car, there was a police official, who may have been 45 to

22     48 years of age, and two soldiers with Kalashnikovs.  The soldiers were

23     also police members because they wore purple uniforms.

24             The first thing I would like you to say, Colonel, is the

25     following:  How do you know that this man who was 45 to 48 years of age

Page 19347

 1     was, indeed, a police official?

 2        A.   As far as I could see, their uniforms looked like the uniforms of

 3     the police in Pale.  And, apart from that, I this seen this very person

 4     next to a police building in Pale.  He know -- he knew us.

 5        Q.   And the other two men who arrived with him, were they also police

 6     members, as you say?  You concluded that based on the violet uniforms

 7     they were wearing.  Is that the only thing that made you conclude that

 8     they were police members from Pale?

 9        A.   In all this stress, I could not even think who these people were.

10     That was the only reason why I thought they were policemen; the colour of

11     the uniform.

12             Well, another reason was what happened next, when an officer

13     entered with some BSA soldiers.  And he approached the three policemen,

14     and he said to them that on behalf of the Bosnian Army, of the Srpska

15     army, that he would now take over into his care, that he would arrest us.

16     So it seems that these were no other people than those connected to the

17     police.

18        Q.   Would the conclusion be correct that you were at first arrested

19     by police members and subsequently taken over by the army?  Is that your

20     conclusion?

21        A.   Exactly.  However, I should add at this stage that the commander

22     of the police was very surprised, and he was not very willing to -- for

23     the army to take us over.  And after some discussion, he relented, and he

24     agreed for us to be taken over.

25        Q.   Can you tell us how and to who that police officer spoke?

Page 19348

 1        A.   The discussion took place between the police officer and an

 2     officer of the BSA.  I don't remember whether the police officer made a

 3     phone call or anything like that.  I'm not certain.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now ask you to look at the following page of

 5     the same document.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, P25801 [as

 7     interpreted].  I will -- I need the following page, which is page 3, and

 8     that -- I'm interested in the second paragraph in B/C/S and the third one

 9     in English.

10        Q.   In that paragraph, you describe the first instance when you were

11     taken to that radio relay station on Jahorina mountain.  Here's what I'm

12     interested in.  In which vehicle were you taken up there to that facility

13     on Jahorina?

14        A.   I believe it was the vehicle that they took over.  It was, I

15     think, a white Toyota Land Rover.

16        Q.   You say that you and Mr. Rechner were escorted by an officer with

17     a camera, a civilian who was a journalist, the BSA driver, and a masked

18     uniformed soldier.

19             Now, firstly, based on what did you arrive at the conclusion that

20     the man with the camera was an officer?  Did he have any military or

21     police insignia?

22        A.   I don't think I said it was an officer.  I just said that he was

23     uniformed, but I am sure that he was the one filming me when I was

24     handcuffed in Jahorinski Potok, before I was moved to the mountain with

25     the antennas.  It was the very same person.  I just associated him with

Page 19349

 1     the army.

 2        Q.   Colonel, you have the third paragraph in front of you.  Let us

 3     take a look at it together.  It says:

 4             "After four to five hours, it was about 1630 or 1700, a soldier

 5     and policeman came and they took me to the same UN car with Rechner.  At

 6     that moment, as I was walking to the car, I saw Kozusnik, Teterevsky, the

 7     Czech from 7 Lima Team, and Dmitri.  They were still handcuffed.  I could

 8     not see Evans and Romero.  I was handcuffed to Rechner and we were put in

 9     the car."

10             And then you go on to say:

11             "I did not know where we were going, but it was a road to

12     Sarajevo.  In the car, there was the officer with the camera."

13             So your statement shows that you identified him to be an officer.

14        A.   In the first statement I indeed said this --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  I note, Your Honour, if you look at the remainder

17     of that sentence, and this is to be clarified by the witness, it says:

18     "A civilian, I think he was a journalist ..."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, it's ambiguous language.  Whether the

20     civilian depicts a new person then further identified as likely being a

21     journalist or whether the officer, which seems to be a bit contradictory,

22     is described as a civilian.

23             So, therefore, I would have preferred, Mr. Stojanovic, you would

24     have read the whole of the sentence, but your suggestion, Ms. MacGregor,

25     is not one I and perhaps also my colleagues would immediately share.

Page 19350

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  My suggestion is that he be read the entire

 2     sentence and asked to clarify it.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honours.  And there

 4     will certainly be more questions.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, you say in your statement:

 6             [No interpretation].

 7             "... in the car there was the officer with the camera, a

 8     civilian, I think he was a journalist, the BSA driver and a masked

 9     uniformed soldier."

10             Here's my question:  Was that person with a camera an officer and

11     if you -- if that is what you remember, based on what did you draw the

12     conclusion that he was, indeed, an officer?

13        A.   Today, after 18 years, I'm not going to resolve whether this

14     particular wording is correct.  I think that the statement that I gave

15     was given much earlier, and today I may only say that I most likely

16     associated that person with an officer because I must have seen him at

17     some post that we visited.  And, therefore, I thought him to be an

18     officer.  Today, I'm not able to resolve whether he was an officer or

19     not.  I simply uphold my first statement that was quoted by the Defence.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You're unable to say whether that person was a

21     military officer or a police officer.

22        A.   The uniform that he was wearing was rather the BSA uniform.

23     Rather -- but rather, for sure it wasn't the uniform of a police officer.

24     Besides, as far as I remember, after these incidents, when we had lunch,

25     he was sitting next to me, and he talked to me like an officer to an

Page 19351

 1     officer.  I doubted whether it would be admissible for an ordinary

 2     soldier to sit next to the officer.

 3        Q.   What was the basis of your conclusion that the driver was a

 4     member of the VRS and not of the police or of some other paramilitary

 5     structure?

 6        A.   I might have tell the difference by the uniform only.  And I saw

 7     two types of uniforms:  Police officer would wear like a violet-coloured

 8     uniform; and the -- there was also other uniforms that soldiers would

 9     wear.  But what were the particular units of the soldiers, I cannot tell.

10     However, I may say that, by uniforms, I could differentiate between

11     police officers and members of other units that were operating within

12     that territory; for instance, members of BSA units.

13        Q.   Did any of the four people who were with you and Rechner in the

14     car say anything in English as you were driving?

15        A.   Only the civilian addressed me in English.  And most likely, it

16     was a journalist.

17        Q.   Neither the civilian nor any other person in the car did say, at

18     any point in time, where you were heading.

19        A.   That's correct.  We didn't know where we were going.  We didn't

20     know why we were blindfolded.  That was very stressful.  We might have

21     been thinking that they were taking us somewhere to shoot us.

22        Q.   In the course of the travel, did any of those present in their

23     mutual conversation mention General Mladic in any way?

24        A.   No, I have not heard any.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, were you able to follow the

Page 19352

 1     conversation among the other persons in the car?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not really, because they were not

 3     engaged in any discussion.  They didn't talk much; but on top of it, I

 4     was not able to understand.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, that would be the first question.

 6     And you could have left out the second one.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Was Mr. Rechner with you in the car throughout?

10        A.   Yes, he was with me all the time.  We were handcuffed together.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P2554 shown

13     in e-court.  Could we focus our attention on page 20, paragraph 52.

14        Q.   While waiting for it to be uploaded, Colonel, I wanted to tell

15     you that I am about to show you a portion from Mr. Patrick Rechner's

16     statement, where he describes the same event by saying, inter alia, that

17     together with you in that car --

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we have it in B/C/S as well,

19     please.  Paragraph 52.

20        Q.   You can see it, Colonel, before you.  He says:

21             "On the way to the Jahorina radar site, one BSA soldier asked

22     another why we were being transported to Jahorina.  The other BSA soldier

23     answered that Mladic had told them he wanted to have several UN members

24     filmed at that location."

25             I'm asking you this:  While understanding your previous answers

Page 19353

 1     and allowing for the possibility that you may or may not understand the

 2     language sufficiently, when you heard this part of Mr. Rechner's

 3     statement, I wanted to know whether, at any point in time, you could have

 4     gained any insight into the conversation with reference to

 5     General Mladic.

 6        A.   No, I could not.  I was focussed on myself, and I did not follow

 7     any conversation that unfolded in the car.  If my colleague, Patrick, was

 8     able to hear that, it means that it might have happened.  He was able to

 9     understand the Serbian language a little bit.  Therefore, I may not

10     rule out that what he said is quite true.

11        Q.   Tell me this:  Having arrived close to the radar facility, could

12     you, at any point in time, observe what was happening with Mr. Rechner as

13     you were being taken to the radio relay node where the footage was taken,

14     that part of the footage which we had occasion to see a little while ago?

15        A.   When I was taken to the antenna and I was handcuffed to the

16     concrete base, that was the last moment when I could see Rechner standing

17     next to the car, so he was within the field of my vision.  After that,

18     when they finished filming, I came back to the car and he was there.  I

19     didn't have to wait for him.

20             I was not focussed on observing what he was doing because I was

21     engaged in conversation with that civilian journalist.  I presume that he

22     was right on that spot next to the car, but I may not say for sure

23     whether he was talking to anyone or not.  After they finished filming,

24     and after they finished that short interview where I just described my

25     situation and the circumstances of other people who were taken as

Page 19354

 1     hostages, the filming was completed, and, therefore, our stay in that

 2     location came to an end.  And the next stage was the return trip on the

 3     same road to the building where we were invited for lunch.  And this is

 4     all.

 5        Q.   As for the people who were in the car, meaning the civilian

 6     journalist and the cameraman, were you in any way mistreated by them?

 7     Abused, hit?

 8        A.   No.  I would say that it was a nice surprise.  Because I asked

 9     for some water, since I have not had anything in my mouth for ten hours.

10     And, as I mentioned earlier, it was a very hot day.  So I was given some

11     water.  And that civilian journalist addressed me in English.  He said

12     that I should not be afraid, that there is no threat, that they will be

13     just filming me against the antenna dropout.  Because it was important to

14     me.  He, in a sense, took my thoughts away from -- no, from thinking

15     about the bad ending of that journey, and I was really grateful to him

16     for that.

17        Q.   He told us that it was he who told you that there was no reason

18     to fear anything and that immediately following the conversation, you

19     were to be returned to Pale.  Is that accurate?

20        A.   It -- there was no conversation to the fact that -- where I would

21     be taken.  He simply said that nothing would happen to me at the place

22     where I was taken.  But what will be the return journey, where they would

23     take me back, no conversation about that was held.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, so that I can understand and

25     follow the evidence.

Page 19355

 1             When you say, "He told us that he was he who told you that there

 2     was" -- who are these "hes" referring to?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The cameraman?  Or Rechner?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- I apologise for being

 6     unclear.  In preparation for today's testimony, we spoke to the

 7     journalist, and he told us that.  I was merely asking the witness whether

 8     his recollection --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ask the question.  Ask the witness and use the

10     names in the place of those prepositions for "he" and "he."

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honour, the Prosecution objects to the

13     portion of the statement -- excuse me, the question Mr. Stojanovic just

14     posed about his conversation out of court with the journalist.  It's not

15     anything that's in evidence and, at this point, it's testimony from

16     Mr. Stojanovic himself.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I think referring to unknown

18     interviews with potential witnesses is not something we would usually do.

19     If you would have simply asked the witness what he said already, by the

20     way, that it was the journalist who told him not to have any fear at that

21     time, then the only thing remaining is that that journalist would have

22     told Mr. Kalbarczyk also that they went back to Pale, which he now says

23     was not said by the journalist.

24             I don't know how important that is, how relevant that is, but I

25     think you should have better refrained from referring to, and in a very

Page 19356

 1     unclear way, to an interview you may have had with the journalist.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Witness, can you tell us whether, throughout your stay at the

 4     radio-relay facility, was there an entire group that came with you in the

 5     car present as well, including the cameraman, the civilian journalist,

 6     the driver, and the masked uniformed soldier?  Were they, too, present

 7     throughout your stay at the facility?  Were they close by?

 8        A.   I suppose, yes, they were, although within the field of my vision

 9     I could not see all of them.  But I learned later that there were some

10     sculpted bunkers with apparatus operating this station, and this is where

11     my colleagues were and the other Pole, who was also a Military Observer.

12     They were hidden in those bunkers, in those shelters.  Two observers were

13     outside in the distance of about 20 metres, and they were handcuffed.  I

14     don't know what they were handcuffed to.  It was some kind of --

15     something that they were handcuffed to on the earth.  They were sitting

16     back to back.  I could see those two persons.  I didn't see the other

17     persons.  Only later did I learn that they were there.

18             So when the filming was over, we did not wait for somebody to --

19     to leave this place.  All of us who came to that place left the place.

20        Q.   I asked you that for the following reason.  If the target had

21     been targeted by NATO aircraft at that particular point in time, is it

22     correct that you would not be the only person hurt but, rather, all of

23     those who were there with you as well?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, there's no need to

25     explain why you ask a question.

Page 19357

 1             Second, if there is a risk that someone is hit, of course, anyone

 2     close to him is at risk to be hit as well.  Don't ask for the obvious.  I

 3     mean -- I have a question.

 4             During this second trip, Witness, were you interviewed again?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On that journey, no.  We again were

 6     blindfolded, and only when we got to -- well, a kind of a building - they

 7     say that was some remnants of the Winter Olympic Games in Sarajevo - the

 8     blindfolds were taken off, and we were invited to lunch.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I mean, when you said that you were

10     blindfolded.  You travelled on small roads in the mountains.  When you

11     were in the mountains, there were two big radar antennas.  Were you then

12     interviewed at that spot?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  As was shown in the video, I

14     was only asked to make a statement what had happened and why I was there.

15     So my words were restricted to saying that.  I simply said that I was

16     arrested, and if there would be another air-strike to that facility to

17     which I was handcuffed, I would probably be killed.  And that's all.  The

18     journalist did not need anything else.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're asking the witness whether

20     the camera was with them, the cameraman, whether the journalist was

21     there.  We have looked at a video.  What's the use of asking?  I mean,

22     you can't film someone without having a cameraman there.  You can't be

23     interviewed, as we saw on the video, that there's -- as the witness said,

24     there was a journalist who put questions to him.  And then it's all for

25     the obvious, that is, that if other people are there as well, that, of

Page 19358

 1     course, they are likely to be struck by any air-strike.  It's -- let's --

 2     let's be realistic.  It's obvious.  You could have done it with one

 3     question.  That is, how many people were there with you, as far as you

 4     remember.  That would have done.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   At some point this time, you mentioned bunkers which were close

 8     by.  They were close to the place where you were filmed.  I wanted to ask

 9     you what the distance was between you - that is to say, the place where

10     you were filmed - and the bunkers was?

11        A.   These bunkers were well masked so you couldn't actually say that

12     there were bunkers.  There was some entrance carved in the rock, and I

13     learned this from a colleague when I was released, that they were not

14     some -- some buildings.  But when I came, all I saw was antenna.  Nothing

15     else.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kalbarczyk, you have not seen the bunkers or the

17     entrance to the bunkers, or have you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see the entrance.  I

19     learned later that there was an entrance.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore you cannot tell us at what distance they

21     were from where you were.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, on the basis on what I

23     learned later.  Namely, my colleague said:  We were about 20 metres,

24     precisely 20 metres, in the bunker, 20 metres away from you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because the question was about the distance

Page 19359

 1     between you and the bunkers.  The question has now been answered.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             Should we take a break, Mr. Stojanovic.  It's time for a break

 4     approximately.  Could you tell us how much time you would still need, if

 5     you would put relevant and non-repetitious questions to the witness after

 6     the break?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 15 to 20 minutes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break.

 9             We'd like to see you back, Mr. Kalbarczyk, in 20 minutes from

10     now.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter past

13     12.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

17             Meanwhile, I use the time to put on the record that the

18     Prosecution prefers to continue with the testimony of Ms. Tabeau on

19     Monday morning and that it is not objected to by the Defence.

20             Is that the case?

21             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber agrees that we would start on

23     Monday morning with the testimony of Ms. Tabeau and would only, after

24     that testimony has been concluded, continue with the next witness on the

25     Prosecution's list.

Page 19360

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Colonel, sir, at some point after you had been taken to that

 5     radio-relay centre for the second time, according to your memory, on the

 6     28th of May, it was offered to you to leave the Pale area and return to

 7     your mission.

 8             Can you tell us who it was who made that suggestion to you?

 9        A.   There was no suggestion to leave the Pale area.  My colleagues

10     asked me whether I would be willing to be transferred to another area,

11     but it was not because the mission ended, but I was to be accompanied by

12     Russian observers.  I did not agree to that.  I said that I would remain

13     there where I was.  The intermediary was a colleague who spoke English

14     the best, Rechner, and Evans as well, who was deputy team leader at that

15     time.  But I was not approached directly from anyone from the Bosnian

16     authorities.

17        Q.   What was your status while you were at the barracks until the

18     13th of June?  I mean the building where you had accommodation.

19        A.   I'm not sure which building you mean, because, for the first

20     three days, we were in the barracks, and then, after that, we were

21     transferred to a smaller building close to the entrance gate to the

22     barracks.

23        Q.   That smaller room where you stayed from the 29th of May, 1995,

24     according to your words, did you have -- did you experience any personal

25     harassment, mistreatment, or anything else of the kind?

Page 19361

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. Stojanovic, are you interested in an

 2     answer to your previous question or not?  Because we've only dealt with

 3     the room where the witness was in but not what his status was, apart from

 4     what you exactly meant by status.  If you wanted to ask him whether he

 5     considered himself to be a prisoner of war, if that's the issue, then

 6     please ask him that question rather than a vague notice of status.  But I

 7     do not see that the previous question has been answered.

 8             Please proceed, as you deem fit.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] All right.

10        Q.   My first question would be the following:  In those barracks, as

11     you called it, in that facility, did you have -- did you experience any

12     personal harassment or mistreatment?

13        A.   Let me answer to your question first.  In the barracks, we all

14     felt like we were live shields, and we were told this.  We were told that

15     we are in a place from which we can any moment be transported to another

16     location where they believed it would be necessary for us to be

17     handcuffed to an object so that they can shield themselves against any

18     possible air-strikes.

19             Now, as for the -- for your second question, whether I was in any

20     way mistreated or harassed, no.  I think it was all very regular

21     treatment for this kind of occurrence, for this kind of incident.

22        Q.   Did any official ever tell you that your status was that of a

23     prisoner of war?

24        A.   Nobody informed us what our status was.  With time, we felt that

25     those who organised our detainment tried to approximate our treatment to

Page 19362

 1     international norms.  That is, we were in touch with the Red Cross, with

 2     doctors.  So it was moving towards this direction.  But that happened

 3     only after three, four days, during which I believe our status was human

 4     shields.

 5        Q.   In your statement, you mention -- and let us, again, take a look

 6     together at P2801, page 5 in both B/C/S and English, the third paragraph.

 7             You mention that, according to your memory, on the 2nd or

 8     3rd of June, General Mladic in civilian clothes visited you in -- in the

 9     facility where you were.  There were also other persons wearing civilian

10     clothes on that occasion.

11             Let us just wait for it to appear on our screen.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 5, paragraph 3.

13        Q.   Tell us first:  At that time, on the 2nd or 3rd of June, which

14     facility were you in?

15        A.   In the smaller building near the entrance gate, the gate to the

16     barracks.  I believe this was place where guards people were, watch

17     place, as far as my experience tells me.

18        Q.   Until then, you had never had the occasion to see General Mladic;

19     right?

20        A.   No direct contact.  But I had seen his face from the press, from

21     the television, so I was familiar with it.

22        Q.   Do you know anybody else, any other member of that delegation

23     that visited you then?

24        A.   No, not that I recall.  To tell you the truth, I didn't attach

25     much importance to it.  I just noticed this one face and that was all.

Page 19363

 1        Q.   Were there any contacts or conversations between that delegation

 2     in civilian clothes and any one of you?

 3        A.   While the delegation was present, we were obliged to stay in our

 4     rooms, and some of us were called to talk to the delegation.  As far as I

 5     know, later I learned that it was Evans, Captain Evans, as the pilot and

 6     Olik [phoen] from Lima 7, as pilot from the Czech Republic.

 7             I know about these two.  I'm not sure whether Rechner was also

 8     interrogated.  Later I found out from my colleagues who were talking to

 9     that delegation that they were asked whether myself, as an air force

10     officer from Poland, might have guided aircrafts at the targets.  They

11     denied, and practically I was not called to talk to that delegation.  But

12     this is what I found out from my colleagues.  And I also know that I did

13     not participate in the meeting with the delegation, and that delegation

14     was probably under the leadership of General Mladic.

15        Q.   If I understood your words correctly, on that occasion, you

16     personally didn't even see General Mladic in person, as a member of that

17     delegation in civilian clothes?

18        A.   No, you are wrong.  Because I saw the delegation approaching the

19     building.  I did not directly participate in the talks with the

20     delegation.  However, General Mladic, together with other people who

21     accompanied him, entered the building.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no loud speaking.

23                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I would just like you to focus on what the statement says.

Page 19364

 1             You say:

 2             "I did not know then it was Mladic, but now that I saw him on TV,

 3     I know it was him."

 4             Here's my question:  At what moment did you come to understand

 5     that one of the members of that delegation was General Mladic?

 6        A.   At the moment when the delegation was approaching the building.

 7     If I had any doubts, they dissipated later because when the soldier takes

 8     off his uniform, he looks differently, but the face remained the --

 9     remains the same.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no visible reactions to the testimony of

11     the witness.  No laughing.  No gestures.  Otherwise, you'll not be able

12     to follow the testimony any further.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

14     would just like to consult my client for a minute.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If your client will adhere strictly to the

16     conditions - no loud speaking, no gestures visible for anyone else, and

17     no standing - then you have an opportunity to consult with Mr. Mladic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Colonel, just a couple more questions concerning this testimony

23     of yours.  How long did the delegation stay on the premises?

24        A.   I think that it was not longer than 30 minutes.  Perhaps 20, up

25     to 30 minutes.

Page 19365

 1        Q.   Colonel, it is our case that on those two days - the 2nd or

 2     3rd of June - General Mladic cannot have been where you say that he was.

 3     Do you allow for the possibility that the man wearing civilian clothes

 4     whom you saw on that occasion was not General Mladic, after all?

 5        A.   No, I would not.  But I would not firmly insist whether that was

 6     the 2nd or the 3rd.  Because I gave the dates with the approximation.  So

 7     if you're looking for any mistakes here, then look at the dates, because

 8     it could be even on the 4th.  But I know for a fact that such a situation

 9     took place, that we were visited by the delegation which was headed by

10     General Mladic.  And what I thought at that time, I thought that they

11     were trying to find a reason to explain to the general public why I was

12     arrested because the charge of guiding the aircrafts that were supposed

13     to do the air -- air-strikes was a very severe charge.  So I have to say

14     that it was -- we were lucky that they dropped that charge, and that is

15     all.

16        Q.   You're an air force officer.  Will you agree with me when I say

17     that for NATO aircraft to carry out their actions, a precondition was

18     the -- to locate the targets and to guide the aircraft to the targets?

19        A.   Can I skip this question?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you're asking not to be -- not to be obliged

21     to answer the question.  No, you have to answer the question.  The

22     question being that it is necessary for NATO aircraft to carry out, I

23     take it, air-strikes, Mr. Stojanovic, you were referring to, that you

24     couldn't do that without having located the targets and to be guided to

25     the targets.

Page 19366

 1             That's the question.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my knowledge, yes.  But the

 3     aircraft does not have to be guided.  If the location of the target is

 4     somehow identified and known, then all the devices that are in the

 5     cockpit will take care of the rest.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Were you personally aware, directly or indirectly, of the fact

 8     that members of the British Army specially trained for such tasks were

 9     out there in the field in order to guide NATO aircraft to selected

10     targets in the territory of the Republika Srpska?

11        A.   I was an observer, a Military Observer.  I have already described

12     my job, and it was not my job to think about the tasks given to the

13     British soldiers.

14             I did my job, the one that I was empowered to do, and the one

15     that I was ordered to do.  This is sort of second guessing if I were to

16     talk about missions of the British soldiers.  I don't have any knowledge

17     of that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We're -- I'm not calling for speculation.  I was

19     really interested in whether you had any knowledge of that because

20     there's a reason why I asked that question.

21             Let me now finish with this topic.  Did you, at any point,

22     understand that the mandate of the peacekeeping force in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina had been changed and that by these air-strikes against

24     one side only, the mandate of the UN forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina had

25     changed?

Page 19367

 1        A.   Later I found out.  But until air-strikes, we were doing our

 2     tasks following the orders that we received from the sector.

 3        Q.   When you say "later I found out," please be more precise.  When

 4     and from whom did you learn about the change in UNPROFOR's mandate in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Most likely it was at the time when I was transferred to

 7     Dubrovnik, because I have never returned to the Sarajevo sector.

 8        Q.   And let us now, by way of finishing, take a look at D393.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could have that on our

10     screens, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so.  Witness, can I ask you whether

12     your knowledge of the change in UNPROFOR's mandate was such that you can

13     tell us what exactly changed in that mandate?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be quite honest, I have to say

15     that I was not made thoroughly familiar with that because in our mission,

16     the responsibility lines were followed, and we were carrying out orders

17     that were given from the Sector Command to our team leader.  So they were

18     taking care of adhering to any changes that might have occurred with the

19     UNPROFOR mandate and the mandate of the Military Observers.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could -- can we get D393, page 4

22     in both B/C/S and English.  But let us first see page 1 so that the

23     witness knows what we're talking about.

24        Q.   Colonel, this is an inter-office memorandum of the United Nations

25     Peace Forces headquarters in Zagreb dated 30 June 1995.  The subject is

Page 19368

 1     final reports on the detention of UNMOs.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let us go to page 4 in

 3     both languages.

 4        Q.   I'm interested in paragraph 4, which reads, inter alia, so the

 5     report says:

 6             "Several UNMOs confirmed during their interview that the guards

 7     were placed at the UNMO accommodation to protect the UNMO from violent

 8     reactions from the local population."

 9             This is in bold type, the last six words:

10             "... who were looking for revenge after the air-strikes.  These

11     measures were ordered by the local BSA commanders."

12             Here's my question:  Your experience and the statements that you

13     mentioned at the United Nations headquarters, are they such that -- as to

14     show that there was a risk of retaliation from the local population

15     because of the air-strikes?

16        A.   This is normal.  Particularly conditions were created on the

17     first day of air-strikes when we were taken to a place where we have been

18     handcuffed.  For ten minutes we stopped in the main square.  The door of

19     the car was opened.  We were left by the soldiers, unguarded.  Anybody

20     could have approached us and they have could spit at our face.  Some

21     people threw small stones at us.  And that probably -- I mean, the

22     information about this incident reached our headquarters, our command.

23     And that's -- that's probably why the conclusion was drawn not to allow

24     situations in which observers were not protected against any hostilities.

25             So that's -- that's all.


Page 19369

 1        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.  This concludes my questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a few questions before I give an opportunity

 3     to the Prosecution to -- to re-examine the witness.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Considering your last answer, Witness, do I

 6     understand you well, that you did not gain the impression that you were

 7     guarded against any revenge by the population but that, apart from being

 8     used as a human shield, that on your way, for ten minutes, you were

 9     exposed to the revenge, rather than be guarded against it?

10        A.   Precisely saying, Your Honour, the building in which we lived was

11     not guarded, and the -- my last words about what -- how we were guarded

12     during our transportation indicates that somebody did not have really

13     good imagination what could have happened when we were left in the car

14     handcuffed to the seats, and the local population in Pale could have

15     approached the car and could have abscise [as interpreted] us, abuse us,

16     as I said, and could have spat -- spat at us.  After ten minutes,

17     probably somebody realised that this is becoming dangerous or perhaps an

18     order was given to take us and transport to us the place which was shown

19     in the video-clip where we were handcuffed to the individual facilities.

20     That's what it looked like.  That's what it was like.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I move to another subject, and that is the

22     delegation that visited you and, as you told us, a delegation which

23     included General Mladic.

24             I first take you to your testimony given today.  The question was

25     put to you that, until then - and I understand "then" to be the moment

Page 19370

 1     that the delegation arrived - until then, you had never had the occasion

 2     to see General Mladic; right?

 3             Your answer was --

 4        A.   [No interpretation].

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  I would just like to take you through

 6     the whole of it.

 7             Your answer was:

 8             "No direct contact, but I had seen his press from the television

 9     so I was familiar with it."

10        A.   Mm-hm.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you whether you intended to say that you

12     had seen General Mladic before that delegation arrived on television?

13        A.   It is certain that already in Zagreb, when Yugoslavia was

14     mentioned, that figure appeared, in the press, on television, even in

15     Poland.  But now I recall that one day, the other day, we were going by

16     some place where many officers were assembled, high-ranking officers were

17     assembled, and from a distance of about 50 metres I saw General Mladic in

18     his characteristic uniform.  It was just a moment because we were going

19     by car, passing by -- where was it?  Definitely on the side of our

20     sector.  That was in Pale.  We were probably going from Sarajevo in the

21     direction of Pale.  And on that occasion, I did not pay any attention.  I

22     simply saw some soldiers.  And, later, when, on television I saw

23     General --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Let me stop you there

25     because I don't want yet to talk about later.  I first want to know how,

Page 19371

 1     under what circumstances - that is, on television, or, as you just told

 2     us, from a distance - you had observed Mr. Mladic either on television or

 3     live.  You've told us that.

 4             Did you have any other occasion before the delegation arrived to

 5     see or watch Mr. Mladic?

 6        A.   Just as I said earlier, I did see him on television, in the

 7     press, a photograph, and I'm recalling now that I saw him when we were

 8     passing by -- I don't know what that was but that there was a large group

 9     of officers, perhaps they were in session, in a meeting, and I saw him in

10     this characteristic uniform.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

12        A.   And I made sure that this was General Mladic.  I asked my

13     colleague, Is that Mladic?  And he said yes.  But that was just a few

14     seconds.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it step by step.  When you saw him at a

16     distance in passing by, was it that you recognised Mr. Mladic from having

17     seen him earlier on television and that you then did verify with your

18     colleagues whether it was him?

19        A.   Precisely, yes.  That was kind of press, television,

20     confrontation with a living person.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I take you to your statement.

22             In your statement, describing the visit, you said:

23             "We were visited by General Mladic in civilian clothes and other

24     people in civilian clothes."

25             You explained why they wanted to see you.  And then you continued

Page 19372

 1     by saying:

 2             "At that moment, I did not know it was Mladic, but now that I saw

 3     him on TV, I know it was him."

 4             Therefore, you say at that moment you did not know that it was

 5     Mladic.  Did you not recognise him from earlier television appearance or

 6     from this encounter at a distance when you verified whether it was him?

 7        A.   Well, apparently there is some contradiction but please believe

 8     me, we had limited possibilities of observing this delegation when it was

 9     entering the building.  So when I had a first look at this group of

10     civilians, I did not associate one of the persons as Mladic.  Well,

11     because if you take off your uniform, your personality changes

12     immediately.  I did not see General Mladic on television or in the press

13     without a cap, without a hat.  Only later when I associated the faces

14     that I had seen, one of the faces, when I recalled again on Serbian

15     television, I responded immediately, Well, it was Mladic who was there.

16     So I must have had some -- I must have been prompted with a picture

17     somehow that I recognised General Mladic as a member of that delegation.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So then to summarise - please correct me when

19     I'm wrong - when you saw this person in civilian clothes, although you

20     had seen General Mladic before on television and in an encounter at

21     distance, at that moment you recognised the person in civilian clothes

22     not as General Mladic, as you had seen him before, but when, at a later

23     stage, you saw him on television, after you were released, I take it,

24     although you didn't say that specifically, but after the visit of the

25     delegation, it was then that, looking at him at television, you then

Page 19373

 1     realised that the person you had seen in civilian clothing had been or

 2     must have been General Mladic.

 3             Is that a fair summary of your testimony?

 4        A.   Not necessarily.  Because, as I said, when a group of civilians

 5     comes, in that group I identified a face that I associated with somebody

 6     at the time.  But at the time I did not know that that was

 7     General Mladic.  But 10, 15 minutes after that group left, I was informed

 8     by the colleagues, but, at the same time, we had television in our

 9     general room, Serbian television, and at that time, on the same day,

10     Serbian television often was showing that person, that figure, so I made

11     sure that that was actually the same face.

12             So after my release that would be too far away.  So it was almost

13     within the same time.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I already corrected myself in that respect because

15     you had not said so, but you say, seeing him on television was almost

16     immediately after the visit of the delegation, and it was then that you

17     realised that the person in civilian clothes you had seen was the same as

18     the General Mladic you had seen on television?

19        A.   Precisely so.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  With this correction, apart from this correction,

21     was my summary accurate?

22        A.   Yes.  The second summary that you've given is correct, accurate.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you as

25     well.

Page 19374

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm interested if you recall what you have seen

 2     at that occasion on television.  What was the report on television about?

 3        A.   I don't recall that report.  There was lots of news shown, and we

 4     did not understand this Serbian language, so we only were paying

 5     attention to the pictures.  And in those pictures, we very often saw

 6     General Mladic with his soldiers or he was also shown in other

 7     situations.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When you watched TV on that occasion, was

 9     General Mladic shown in civilian clothes or in uniform, on TV?

10        A.   Let -- let's make something clear:  It wasn't television that was

11     reporting news on -- of that particular day.  It was some news of the

12     previous days, and some of the news was about -- with -- with

13     General Mladic.  Please do not understand that this television report

14     that I saw spoke about this particular visit.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I didn't suggest that to you.  I just wanted to

16     know if you recall if Mr. Mladic was shown in uniform or in civilian

17     clothes at that point in time when you saw the television report.

18        A.   Frankly speaking, on television, I have never seen General Mladic

19     in civilian clothes.  That's probably the reason for my shock.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that answer.

21        A.   Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you as

23     well.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My questions are in a slightly different

25     direction.

Page 19375

 1             On two occasions today at page 50, line 11 or 10, and at page 51,

 2     line 7, you referred to the fact that the people who were looking at you

 3     as you were left in the car with the door open could have spat at you.

 4             Do you remember that piece of evidence?

 5        A.   Yes, I remember.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question to you is:  Did anyone spit at you at

 7     all?

 8        A.   Yes.  That was very unpleasant because of the circumstances and

 9     then I also noticed that there is something bad about it.  I was about to

10     give back, to retaliate but -- with my hand, for example, but I could not

11     because I was handcuffed.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you.  I have no further

13     questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, do you have any questions in

15     re-examination; and, if so, how much time would you need?

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  I don't have any questions.  I just have the

17     associated exhibits to deal with.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Then this -- Mr. Kalbarczyk, this concludes your testimony,

20     unless the questions by the Bench have triggered any need for further

21     questions by the Defence?  Apparently not.

22             Therefore --

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Mladic would like to consult with counsel,

25     and since we are at the very end of the testimony, you have an


Page 19376

 1     opportunity to do so.  Under the usual conditions.

 2             No -- no loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.  No loud speaking,

 3     Mr. Mladic.  No -- I -- again, I don't want to hear your voice.

 4     Whispering is the advice.

 5                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions, apparently.

 7             Then, Mr. Kalbarczyk, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

 8     thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all

 9     the questions that were put to you, either by the parties or by the

10     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

11             You may follow the usher.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Meanwhile, I take the opportunity to thank the

14     Polish interpreters for their assistance in today's hearing.

15             Ms. MacGregor, associated exhibits.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honour, there are four associated exhibits

17     and one table of concordance.  If it would be easiest, I will list the

18     four 65 ter numbers for the associated exhibits --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- first.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we already hear in advance whether there will

22     be any objections at all against the associated exhibits.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't think so, Your Honour,

24     but I would like to hear which ones.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, associated exhibits are on the list, I think.

Page 19377

 1     There are only four.

 2             No objections.  Then you can list them all four in one -- in one

 3     turn.  We don't have to go through them separately.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Number one, 11476; number two, 17443; number three, 18750; and

 6     number four, 18751.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, in the same sequence.  Number one

 8     will be P --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  P2805, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The second would be?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  P2806, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The third would be?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  P2807, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And the fourth would be?

15             THE REGISTRAR:  P2808, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  All four admitted into evidence.

17             The table of concordance.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  The table of concordance has been assigned 65

19     ter 29114 and we ask that it be added to the exhibit list and also moved

20     into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections to it be added to the 65 ter list?

22             Then leave is granted.  Also no objection against it being

23     admitted.

24             Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 29114 receives number?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  P2809, Your Honours.

Page 19378

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P2809 is admitted into evidence.

 2             Very practically, we would be at a time for a break.  We have no

 3     further witnesses for today.  We would re-start with Ms. Tabeau.  I have

 4     two decisions, all together five pages, to be read.  We can do two

 5     things.  Either take a break now and that you will hear the decisions

 6     after the break, after which most likely we would immediately adjourn for

 7     the day, or extend this session slightly so as to read the decisions.

 8             If Defence would like to consult with Mr. Mladic, they have an

 9     opportunity to do so.

10             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bibles.

12             MS. BIBLES:  We're aware from informal communication that the

13     Chamber also would like to update on the status of the follow-up exhibits

14     with respect to Witness Bowen.  Mr. Jeremy is present and able to do that

15     today if that's how the Court would like to proceed.  I note that

16     Mr. Ivetic is here as well.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this is it rather technical, isn't it?  Yes.

18     Another option would be - and I'm looking at the Defence - that it will

19     be communicated by e-mail, to be copied to the Defence, and then,

20     dependant on the content of it, to have it filed rather than it to be

21     read in court.  I leave it to the parties.  Most important is that the

22     Chamber finally receives the information and that it is publicly

23     available.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'm happy to proceed

25     in that way if Mr. Ivetic is.

Page 19379

 1             MR. IVETIC:  We will do that, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And ... I -- I again hear a voice which is too

 3     loud.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, how will we proceed?  Can I read the decisions

 5     and then adjourn or would you first like to have the break?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was kindly asked to convey to

 7     you that due to General's personal needs, we should have a break first

 8     and then hear the decisions afterwards.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now in view of the reason we could take a very short

10     break of five minutes.  We could also take the normal break of

11     20 minutes.  Is there any preference for that?

12                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If possible, can we have a

14     20-minute break, Your Honour?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a 20-minutes' break and we resume at

16     20 minutes to 2.00.

17             Mr. Jeremy, if your submissions would be very short, then perhaps

18     it's easier to have them on the record, but I didn't want to extend the

19     session beyond what would be comfortable to everyone.  But since we will

20     have a new session anyhow, and if it's not too long, I would invite you

21     to make those submissions.

22             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes

24     to 2.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.

Page 19380

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  To start with, I'll deal with some pending issues

 3     related to documents which were marked for identification during

 4     Witness Butler's testimonies -- testimony.

 5             First, concerning P2099, the Chamber would like to hear from the

 6     Defence by Monday, the 18th of November, as to whether it maintains its

 7     objection as to authenticity.  I refer you for that matter to transcript

 8     pages 16173, 16177, and 16178.

 9             Second, concerning Exhibit P2104, the parties are requested to

10     clarify their position as to which of the document's pages are relevant.

11     They are expected to do so by the same date, that is, the

12     18th of November.  And I refer you in this respect to transcript

13     pages 16210 and 16211.

14             Third, as to P2105, the parties are requested to specify, again,

15     by that same date, whether they agree as to the date featured in that

16     document.  I refer you to transcript pages 16219 and 20.

17             Fourth, the Chamber has considered the Defence objections to

18     admission of P2109 and P2129, which were not found persuasive, and

19     decides that P2109 and P2129 are admitted into evidence.

20             Fifth, the Prosecution has informed the Chamber that P2126 is a

21     different version of an intercept which is already in evidence and was

22     requested to specify under which exhibit number that intercept is in

23     evidence.  This can be found on transcript pages 16369 to 70.  The

24     Prosecution is requested to inform the Chamber accordingly by Monday, the

25     18th of November.

Page 19381

 1             As to D360, and as shown on transcript page 16714, the Chamber

 2     invited the parties to tender the original French version and submit

 3     further information on the document's provenance.  This has not happened

 4     to date, and the Chamber instructs the parties to do so by Monday, the

 5     18th of November, 2013.

 6             With regard to P2183, the Chamber notes that the Prosecution has

 7     uploaded, as requested, a new version consisting of chapter 16 of the

 8     SFRY Criminal Code and, as a result, P2183 can now be admitted into

 9     evidence.  Should the Prosecution intend to rely on other parts of the

10     SFRY Criminal Code, it should specify which ones and request their

11     inclusion in the same exhibit number.

12             I think I should add that P2183 is therefore admitted into

13     evidence.

14             As to P2185, bearing Rule 65 ter number 4377, the Prosecution is

15     requested to upload a revised and shortened version, as it committed

16     itself to doing, restricted to the particular pages it seeks to a rely on

17     by Monday, the 18th of November of this year.  I refer you to transcript

18     pages 16846 and 47.

19             Turning to P2189, the Prosecution is requested to confirm whether

20     it agrees with the Defence on the translation issue raised in court and,

21     if so, upload a revised translation by Monday, the 18th of November.  The

22     relevant exchanges on this can be found on transcript page 16853.

23             As to P2192, the Prosecution was requested to provide more

24     information on provenance, and this has not been done to date.  It is

25     therefore requested to do so by Wednesday, the 20th of November.


Page 19382

 1             Lastly, with regard to P2198, the Chamber notes that on the

 2     2nd of October of this year, the Prosecution uploaded into e-court a

 3     B/C/S translation with doc ID number R001-3471-BCST, and on the

 4     16th of October, the Defence was asked to confirm whether it agreed with

 5     the translation.  The Defence has not responded to this request.  The

 6     translation may be attached to P2198, which is hereby admitted into

 7     evidence.

 8             In addition to these, the parties are reminded that during

 9     Witness Butler's testimony, they agreed to follow up on certain issues

10     related to a number of exhibits; namely, P1968, P1153, P1501, P2137, and

11     D285.  To date, the Chamber has not been informed as to any actions taken

12     by the parties in this respect and requests to have an update by

13     Wednesday, the 20th of November.

14             And this concludes the Chamber's observations in relation to

15     these still-pending issues in relation to MFI'd documents in relation to

16     Mr. Butler's testimony.

17             I now turn to delivering the Chamber's decision on the admission

18     into evidence of the expert reports of Witness Richard Butler.

19             By notice of the 25th of January, 2012, the Prosecution served

20     Witness Butler's reports on the Defence.  These included the VRS corps

21     command responsibility report, the VRS brigade command responsibility

22     report, and the original and revised Srebrenica military narrative, the

23     analytical addendum to revised Srebrenica military narrative chapter 8,

24     and the VRS Main Staff command responsibility report.

25             On the 20th of February, the Defence objected to their admission,

Page 19383

 1     and in a decision of the 19th of October, 2012, the Chamber deferred

 2     deciding on admission until Witness Butler's testimony.

 3             Witness Butler testified before the Chamber from the 3rd until

 4     the 17th of September, 2013.  At the conclusion of his testimony, the

 5     Prosecution tendered the reports, and the Defence objected to two of

 6     them, the Srebrenica narratives, which have, in the meantime, been

 7     assigned numbers P2202 and P2203.  The Defence noted that the narratives

 8     recite witness testimony from the Krstic case and objected to the

 9     witness's expertise, claiming that he is merely interpreting documents

10     which encroaches on the role of the Chamber.  The submissions can be

11     found at transcript pages 16882 and 883.

12             In response, the Prosecution submitted that the narratives refer

13     to 31 witnesses and of these only 12 were not called to testify or

14     presented as 92 bis or quater witnesses in the present case.  Six are

15     Bosnian Muslim civilians who, in their evidence in previous cases,

16     identified persons referred to in the Bratunac Brigade roster; three

17     addressed the 15th of July meeting at the Zvornik Brigade, on which

18     evidence has been introduced in this case by other witnesses; another is

19     a Dutch soldier who testified as to prisoners being transferred from

20     Potocari to the Vuk Karadzic school, which, in this case, is dealt with

21     by another Dutch soldier.  The eleventh was in effect a comment by

22     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans which was introduced in this case through

23     Witness Boering.  And the twelfth was a survivor of the Orahovac

24     execution, evidence about which was presented in this case by other

25     Orahovac survivors.  These submissions with be found on transcript

Page 19384

 1     pages 16883 and 884.

 2             As to the objection about the references to testimony from the

 3     Krstic case, the Chamber notes that this goes to the weight ultimately to

 4     be attributed to the narratives and in this respect finds the

 5     Prosecution's submissions linking the impugned testimony with evidence

 6     from witnesses presented in this case particularly helpful.

 7             Turning to the challenge to the witness's expertise, the Chamber

 8     recalls that it has already accepted Witness Butler as an expert in

 9     military analysis.  His reports display the witness's thorough analysis

10     of documents and testimony he reviewed as well as his observations and

11     conclusions.  As noted in the Chamber's previous decision on another

12     military analyst, Richard Philipps, the expertise at issue is engaged in

13     reviewing, identifying, and extracting information from multiple sources,

14     and organising a considerable amount of material in a comprehensive

15     manner.  The witness's conclusions do not necessarily provide a

16     definitive answer to the issues relevant to the indictment but merely

17     assist the Chamber in making its determinations on the totality of the

18     evidence.

19             With regard to the narratives, the Chamber notes that P2203 is a

20     revised version of P2202, which, as noted in the former's introduction,

21     follows the same format as the original but includes information gained

22     since the original's publication as a result of the Prosecutor's

23     continuing investigations.  Given the significant overlaps between the

24     two versions, and that the revised version appears to include at least

25     the majority of the information set out in the original, having both


Page 19385

 1     versions in evidence seems superfluous.

 2             The Chamber therefore denies admission of the original version

 3     without prejudice.

 4             As for the remaining reports, the Chamber considers that, on the

 5     whole, they meet the standards of admission under Rules 89(C) and 94 bis

 6     of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  Consequently, the reports,

 7     including their annexes, which have been given exhibit numbers P2200,

 8     P2201, and P2203 up to and including P2210, are admitted into evidence.

 9             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

10             Mr. Jeremy, I left it to you whether you would present your

11     submissions orally or do it through an e-mail.  May I take it from your

12     presence that you would like to make the submissions orally.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, please, Your Honours.  It should take five

14     minutes or so.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.  As the Chamber will be aware, you asked

17     for an update in respect to a number of items arising out of Witness

18     Jeremy Bowen's testimony and I can provide that update now.

19             Firstly, in respect to the 92 ter statement and testimony of this

20     witness, P2515 MFI, and P2516 MFI, respectively, Defence and Prosecution

21     have discussed this 92 ter statement and testimony, and while discussions

22     have been partially successful from a Prosecution perspective, Defence

23     stand by two of their objections, as I understand it; namely, that the

24     statement and testimony contain expert or opinion testimony and

25     unreliable hearsay testimony and, therefore, on that basis, they continue

Page 19386

 1     to object to the admission of those two documents.

 2             Notwithstanding that, we tender them for admission into evidence

 3     in their entirety.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you'd like the Chamber to decide on this.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, please, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll do that, in due course.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  As regards the eight associated exhibits for this

 8     witness, at the request of the Chamber provisional exhibit numbers have

 9     been pre-assigned by Madam Registrar.  These were P02568 to P02575.  And,

10     as I understand it, Defence have no objections to the admission of those

11     exhibits.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then P2568 up to P2575 are admitted into

13     evidence.  All public exhibits, Mr. Jeremy?

14             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Secondly, as regards further documentation re

17     Witness Fraser's testimony in respect to his knowledge of several

18     incidents of apparent attempted deception by the ABiH side in Sarajevo,

19     the Prosecution continues to search for such documentation and will

20     provide an update to the Chamber by close of business today on whether

21     we -- we've been able to identify that.  So far, we have not.

22             Thirdly, as regards the BBC Trust findings and the statistical

23     information about the number of cases brought before the BBC Trust,

24     yesterday, Mr. Ivetic provided me with a detailed proposal regarding

25     this, and the Prosecution is still in the process of reviewing this and

Page 19387

 1     it will take a little bit of time and we'll update the Chamber further on

 2     this next week.

 3             Lastly, the Chamber requested further information from the

 4     Defence regarding an UNPROFOR report to General Rose dated the

 5     27th of October, 1994, and that was in respect to an incident involving a

 6     sniping of a tram on the 25th of October, 1994.  That was at transcript

 7     page 18129 to 30.  And in particular you asked for evidence of the

 8     suggestion that evidence in corroboration by Bosnian officials indicates

 9     that the shots came from Bosnian-held territory.  Just in connection with

10     this, the Prosecution has been able to locate 65 ter 10505A and that's a

11     report from the BiH Ministry of the Interior relating to this particular

12     incident, and I'd invite the Defence to take a look at that with a view

13     to tendering that document.  And if the Defence chooses not to tender it,

14     I think it's likely that the Prosecution will tender that from the bar

15     table.

16             And that concludes my submissions.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  As far as I can see, there's nothing

18     which requires an immediate response or an immediate decision.  I

19     therefore thank you, Mr. Jeremy, for the updates which you have put on

20     the record.

21             Is there any other matter?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not on the part of the Defence,

23     Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn for the day, and since we are not

25     sitting tomorrow, we adjourn until Monday, the 18th of November, at

Page 19388

 1     9.30 in the morning, if I'm not mistaken, in this same courtroom, III.

 2                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.06 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

 4                           November, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.