Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19604

 1                           Thursday, 21 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             There are two short preliminaries and if the parties would not

11     mind, I'll introduce them myself.

12             First, for the Prosecution.  The English translation for P468

13     which was admitted through Dorothea Hanson on the 7th of November,

14     last year, contains pages which do not reflect the B/C/S original, and

15     the Chamber understands that the Prosecution has meanwhile uploaded a

16     correct English translation under doc ID L010-5084.  And the Chamber

17     hereby grants leave to the Registry to replace the old English

18     translation by the new corrected one.

19             That's on the record.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Brown.

22             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Brown, perhaps needless to say but you're still

24     bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of

25     your testimony.

Page 19605

 1                           WITNESS:  EWAN McGREGOR BROWN [Resumed]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Lukic will now continue his

 3     cross-examination.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

 8        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Brown.

 9        A.   Good morning sir.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Before we start, I just want to tender, and I

11     informed the Prosecution this morning, 1D1462.  I forgot to do that on

12     Tuesday.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, I think that's the document that the

15     witness had requested to take with him and so I just request that he be

16     asked if he had any additional comments based on that review before it be

17     tendered.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you -- it seems that you agree with

19     the suggestion.  If you do that, we'll deal with admission immediately

20     after that.

21             MR. LUKIC:

22        Q.   So, Mr. Brown, you heard this exchange.  Do you have anything to

23     add, commenting on this document?

24        A.   Well, there is maybe one issue that I would raise.  In relation

25     to page 4, there's a section that the JNA are writing about

Page 19606

 1     paramilitaries and giving an assessment on the strength of paramilitaries

 2     in this -- in this section.  And they make mention of the SDA and the HDZ

 3     but they don't make any reference whatsoever to the SDS so the Serb

 4     organisations.  I -- maybe that is some -- in my report, I make mention

 5     that there's a document not long after this which identifies that the JNA

 6     were providing weapons to volunteers and a linkage with the SDS as well.

 7     And it just seems slightly odd that if the JNA are talking about

 8     paramilitaries or all groups causing tensions that there's something of a

 9     demission on this page in dealing with the strength and organisation of

10     the Serb paramilitaries that were clearly operating at this time.

11             I do, however, accept that the -- much of the document is talking

12     about trying to reduce ethnic tensions but that is an issue that I had

13     mentioned in my report that the JNA were attempting to do that at the

14     same time as very much converging with the Bosnian Serbs and in some

15     cases providing weapons to them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you still want to tender it having heard

17     the additional observations?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, 1D1462 will receive number ...

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D415, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D415 is admitted into evidence.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up 1D1463 in

25     e-court.  I believe that we have this document only in English.

Page 19607

 1        Q.   Mr. Brown, we can see that the Mesihat of the Islamic Association

 2     of Croatia and Slovenia receives money from the Arabic countries and uses

 3     it to furnish the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina with weapons.

 4     Did you come across this document in your work?

 5        A.   Could I ask the provenance of this document, sir?  There's no

 6     B/C/S.  It's just an English document here.  But are you able to furnish

 7     me with some idea of where the document has come from and its background?

 8        Q.   [In English] This document come to us from the Prosecution.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the next question would be where did the

10     Prosecution get it from.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, my understanding is that it was one of

12     the underlying materials for an expert report in a different case and we

13     received it in that fashion.  I can look into it in a little more detail

14     during the course of the break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, whether this is the original version or not is

16     still to be considered.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   In your work, did you ever come across this document?

20        A.   No, sir, I didn't.

21        Q.   Did you know that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, even

22     before the war broke out, purchased weapons?

23        A.   I -- I didn't know.  I --  I -- this was not a key fact of my

24     expert report.  I'm aware that the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina

25     had some control over the Territorial Defence, the republican Territorial

Page 19608

 1     Defence, so it would seem quite likely that some, at least, TO weapons

 2     may have fallen into the control of the Bosnian government and

 3     potentially other methods, including purchasing weapons would have been

 4     open to them.  But it wasn't [Realtime transcript read in error "was"]

 5     an area of my expert report, and I don't know the specifics.

 6        Q.   Did you know that the weapons were stored in mosques, i.e.,

 7     Muslim places of worship?

 8        A.   Which weapons, sir?  The TO weapons or weapons -- other weapons?

 9        Q.   Any weapons whatsoever.  Did you know that?  You have just given

10     us two options.  Now, did you have information that any of those weapons

11     were stored in mosques?

12        A.   I -- I don't remember specific details on that, sir.

13        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

14             In paragraph 2.5 of your report, and let me just ask the -- the

15     Honourable Judges whether they have the hard copies of the gentleman's

16     report, or would you perhaps want us to print new versions thereof?

17             In paragraph 2.5, on page 61, as far as I can see, you say that

18     the JNA was deployed in crisis areas such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, and

19     Skender Vakuf.

20             Would you agree with me that the units that are stated here, the

21     343 Motorised Brigade, and the 5th Kosara Brigade were deployed in

22     Prijedor municipality?  However, those units hailed from that

23     municipality and people who were recruited into those units were actually

24     natives of Prijedor?

25        A.   Yes.  On the most part, they were.  Not exclusively in the case

Page 19609

 1     of the 343rd Brigade, as I -- as I recall, but many people from those

 2     brigades were recruited.  The brigades went to Western Slavonia and they

 3     were redeployed back there.  Although in the case of the 6th Brigade,

 4     maybe not specifically referenced in this line or this paragraph, I know

 5     elements of that brigade did go and deploy into other municipality, such

 6     as Krupe and Kljuc.

 7        Q.   Very well.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you put your question, may I deal with a

 9     matter of the record.  On page 4, line 23, you can read there, "But it

10     was an area of my expert report."  But I understood the witness as having

11     said "... it wasn't an area of my expert report."

12             Is that correct?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is, sir.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   The 6th Partizan Brigade, is it correct that its members hailed

17     from Sanski Most and that it was also redeployed into the area from which

18     it was first deployed into Croatia?

19        A.   Yes, sir, I think on the whole.  There were other officers of the

20     brigade who I believe were not from Sanski Most, but the brigade hailed

21     from that area.  Then it went to Western Slavonia.  It was redeployed

22     there in the latter part of 1991.

23        Q.   In other words, those units that were in Croatia were then

24     redeployed into those territories from which they originally hailed.

25     They were not redeployed there because those were crisis areas.

Page 19610

 1        A.   I believe the 1st -- the 5th Corps referred to some of those

 2     areas as crisis areas.  They didn't go back to those areas and draw down

 3     or disband or go back to their barracks and -- and go on leave.  I know

 4     very quickly elements of the 43rd Brigade, when they were deployed to

 5     Prijedor, they were deployed to combat locations.  So they weren't

 6     disbanded or -- or drawn down in any way.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on, I would like tender

 9     1D1463 into evidence.  This is the previous document that we saw

10     detailing with the purchase of weapons by the Muslim association.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I'd suggest it be marked for identification at this

13     time, pending further provenance information.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand from the document itself now

15     that it is supposed to have been signed or confirmed by persons, and for

16     that reason most likely this is not the original.  And if it comes from

17     an expert in another case, then it might be important to find out where

18     that expert got it from.

19             Since the witness cannot tell us anything about it, it would be

20     marked for identification.  The Chamber is not only interested in the

21     provenance but also whether this is a document which should be bar tabled

22     or whether it should come in through this witness because the witness

23     couldn't tell us anything about it.

24             Please proceed.

25             You need a number for it to be marked for identification.

Page 19611

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1463 receives number D416,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D416 is admitted -- is marked for identification.

 4     My apologies.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at 1D1464.

 6        Q.   When it appears on the screen, we will see that the document was

 7     issued by the public security station in Prijedor, i.e., the Prijedor

 8     police, on the 18th of May, 1992.  And the subject are paramilitary

 9     formations and their strength in the municipality of Prijedor.

10             Did you include this document into your review?  Did you have it

11     at your disposal?

12        A.   I -- I -- I don't know if it is footnoted in my report.  It's

13     been some time now since I've seen these documents, and I don't know if

14     I've included this one in the Prijedor report I wrote or whether it's

15     footnoted in my Krajina report.  I would have to check that.  But it is a

16     document that I believe I've seen before.  I would have to check that

17     though.

18        Q.   Why I'm asking you this?  I'm asking you this because you told us

19     that you did not try to establish a strength of Muslim units.  That's why

20     I'm asking you whether you were privy to those documents that dealt with

21     that aspect.

22             And, secondly, why didn't you try to establish the strength of

23     Muslim units?

24        A.   I -- I didn't -- I don't believe I said I didn't try to establish

25     the strength of Muslim units.  What I said was that the -- a study of

Page 19612

 1     the -- in -- detailed study of the non-Serb forces was not the core

 2     component of this report but there were references in the Krajina

 3     documents that clearly indicated that elements were armed.  I make that

 4     clear in my report.  I do make mention of specific incidents in -- in the

 5     Krajina municipalities, including incidents that resulted in the deaths

 6     of VRS soldiers.  I make that clear in the report too.

 7             This document does seem to give an indication of strengths in --

 8     in that area at the time, but it doesn't go against my general conclusion

 9     that that strength is relatively limited.  We're talking about

10     platoon-size strength here, company-size strength which is relatively

11     small numbers, certainly in comparison to the strength of the 5th Corps,

12     and that these units are predominantly armed with small-arms and

13     hunting rifles, as opposed to the type of weaponry that was available to

14     the 5th Corps and 1st Krajina Corps.

15             So I -- I did not study in detail aspects, all aspects, of the

16     non-Serb strength and opposition.  But where it was evident in the

17     Krajina documents, I made that clear, and I made my own assertions that I

18     did not think that the strength was in any way comparable to that of the

19     5th Corps/1st Krajina Corps.  And where it was evident, it was relatively

20     lightly armed and in relatively small strength.  That's not to say that

21     they did not conduct operations.  They did.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, if I may just get clarification.

23             Am I right that from your question you're insinuating that the --

24     these paramilitaries are Muslim paramilitaries?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 19613

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where from this document do we find that they

 2     are -- they are Muslim?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Since it's coming from Serbian side on the

 4     18th of April [sic] after the take-over of power in Prijedor.  Obviously

 5     that -- Serbian units wouldn't be marked as paramilitary at that time by

 6     this side.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Why not?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  The power was over -- overtaken on the

 9     30th of April [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Overlapping speakers] ... but why wouldn't

11     Serbians describe their own paramilitaries as paramilitary?

12             MR. LUKIC:  And also you can see through the names of the

13     villages that -- first Ljubija, Donja Ljubija is Muslim-Croat village.

14     Rizvanovici, Hambarine, Biscani are Muslim villages, Carakovo is Muslim

15     village, and Kozarac is Muslim village.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we agree that you are making deductions?  You

17     don't have hard evidence to say these are Muslims.  You are making

18     deduction because I don't want to go into further arguments with you.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  If you think that I am making deductions, but

20     I think it is obvious from the documents.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you think you are making the obvious

22     deductions.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's stop it and let's --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's stop it and [overlapping speakers]...

Page 19614

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I will move on.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you want to add to the decision?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Just two quick things, Your Honour.

 4             First at the previous page, page 9, line 20 and 21, Mr. Lukic was

 5     reported -- recorded, rather, to describe this document as dated the

 6     18th of April.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]... May.  The power was taken

 8     on the 30th of May.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What -- I take it that --

10             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you would like to have that clarified.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I believe he just has, Mr. President.

13             The second is simply that the document is in fact cited in the

14     Krajina report at footnote 637, and that information is -- obviously it's

15     available to the Defence as well as it is to us.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, Mr. Lukic, the whole issue of not paying

17     attention to it seems to be totally moot.  Because if it is footnoted,

18     then that information is supporting or underlying the report.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   In paragraph 2.7 of your report, you say forcible take-over of

22     certain municipalities by the SDS; namely, Bosanska Krupa and Prijedor,

23     amongst others.

24             Did you establish when the Muslims started militarily organise

25     themselves in those two municipalities?

Page 19615

 1        A.   No, I didn't look in detail at that.  But by the relatively quick

 2     nature of the take-overs, it didn't seem that the non-Serb population

 3     were particularly well -- well armed or well-able to stop that take --

 4     over, if that was their intention.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Before I move further, I would like to tender this

 6     footnoted document, 1D1464.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I don't have any objection, Your Honour.  I believe

 8     it is also part of a document that we tendered on Tuesday.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is, then we don't need to have it in evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that Mr. Lukic maybe check P2869 which is

11     what I believe it's included in.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I will --

13             MR. TRALDI:  The relevant is page 4 of the English of that

14     document.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we see that document, page 4 of P2869, then

17     we can clarify it?

18             Indeed, it seems to be the same.

19             MR. LUKIC:  It is the same, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we looking at page 4 of the document or ... yes.

21     Okay.  Then there's no need to tender it, Mr. Lukic.  I take it, you

22     would agree.

23             MR. LUKIC:  I withdraw my proposal then.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you take into account in that the conflict

25     in Bosanska Krupa broke out because three Serbian young men were

Page 19616

 1     seriously wounded in Arapusa?

 2        A.   No, I -- I -- I didn't take that into account into the specifics

 3     of that municipality.  That may well have been the case.  There were

 4     other incidents in Prijedor, for example, where there were flash-point

 5     incidents, I think, where individuals were attacked.  But I didn't study

 6     Bosanska Krupa in that detail.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just for the sake of reference, in

 8     P413, which is an OTP exhibit -- perhaps we could show it on the screen

 9     briefly.  413.  We need page 4 in English and we'll focus on what's at

10     the end of this page, and in B/C/S we also need page 4, paragraph 4.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We are on page 3 in the English and not page 4,

12     unless you are talking about e-court pages.

13             MR. LUKIC:  In e-court, yes.

14             [In English] One second.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.  Just one second.

17             [Interpretation] It begins on page 5 in the English version in

18     e-court, but it's the fourth page of the document itself, and it

19     continues onto the following page.

20        Q.   The sentence that we need is the first full sentence on page 5

21     or, rather, the following page in the English version:

22             "The incident in Arapusa, which occurred in the night" --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please turn to the top of --

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's okay now.

Page 19617

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We can see it on the screen:

 2             "The incident which occurred in Arapusa on the night of

 3     19th/20th April when Muslim extremists seriously wounded three young

 4     Serbian men and the visit of Fikret Abdic to Bosanska Krupa, were the

 5     last harbingers of the war in this region."

 6        Q.   You have told us that you did not take this into account.  So as

 7     this document has already been admitted, I will move on.

 8        A.   Is it -- is it possible to read the previous page, sir?

 9        Q.   All right.  Please just excuse me, I was told that you were to

10     finish your testimony by Friday; is that correct?  Or do you have some

11     time next week as well?

12        A.   I do have an appointment in Brussels on -- next week, but if I

13     have to come back, I'm sure I can change that, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, there was a kind of an agreement among

15     the parties.  This morning you spent [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR. LUKIC:  We have to move faster.  We cannot read all the

17     documents here in the courtroom.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you wasted quite some time on asking

19     about a document which you said the witness would have ignored and then

20     in -- of course, the witness would not know by heart -- with the

21     assistance of the Prosecution it turned out that you had not properly

22     studied the report and you had not looked at what the witness had

23     presented.  And then to blame the witness for seeking context, you should

24     consider that you can't ask a witness to just focus on one or two lines

25     and then say, Well, take it takes too much time if you want to see it in

Page 19618

 1     context.  That's your -- let's not at this moment not further deal with

 2     the matter.

 3             We've heard what the witness said.  But I'm urging you to use

 4     your time in a productive way in the interests of your case and your

 5     client.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Any other case where the witness wants to look at a

10     document and Mr. Lukic would prefer to continue, we're happy to adopt the

11     same approach we took Tuesday:  Print the document so the witness can be

12     provided with it by the usher and review it at the break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Thank you for the proposal, Mr. Traldi.

16     I'll move on.

17             Only I received information that the document is not exactly the

18     same we proposed.  And the Prosecution -- since their document has two

19     pages and it's -- that document is from 14th of May and 18th of May and

20     our document is only one of those from 18th of May.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is two documents in one.  The four pages,

22     the latter part, that is page 4 is the same as page 2 in English.  That

23     gives the context and the background because it's all about the dispatch.

24             Would you -- if you want to separate it, you're free to do so.

25     If you want to leave it as it is then --

Page 19619

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We will leave it as it is.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Further on, in paragraph 2.75 of your report, you say that the

 5     Serbs used incidents of low intensity as a justification for mass

 6     attacks.  You also say that the consequence of these attacks was the fact

 7     that 7.000 people were moved into prisoner camps.

 8             Did you analyse how many of the 7.000 people were civilians and

 9     how many were fighters?

10        A.   I'm not sure I used the word "mass attacks" in that paragraph,

11     sir, but I take your point.

12             The Krajina Corps document - I know -- I believe there is one on

13     the 1st of June - put of that 7.000, 5.000 in Trnopolje and 2.000 in

14     Manjaca or Omarska, I believe.  It may not necessarily be exactly clear

15     but it would seem roughly that the 5.000 were civilians in Trnopolje and

16     at least on that point they reference around 2.000 as fighters.  However,

17     many of the Manjaca camp documents -- or a number of the Manjaca camp

18     documents make reference to the fact that during their processing they

19     find that large numbers of those were not fighters but who were civilians

20     who happened to be in the fields or houses in -- but rounded up and sent

21     to camps nevertheless.

22             So in specific numbers, no, the documents don't say exactly the

23     totals.  But it would seem that the overwhelming majority were not

24     fighters and that that is known by the 1st Krajina Corps.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, you are referring to paragraph 2.75 of

Page 19620

 1     the report.  But I don't find any paragraph with that number in the

 2     report.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I find it at paragraph -- page 87, but it doesn't

 4     seem to relate to what is being discussed.  Maybe there is ...

 5             Is it page 87?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Eighty-seven.  Page 87.  And the paragraph is

 7     275 [sic] I have cut it out here.  And it's telling about 7.000.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We found it, and I think that's what you referred

10     to.  Let's always be clear 2.75 is not exactly the same as 275.  That may

11     cause come confusion.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] We have discussed Prijedor, the attack on

15     Hambarine -- or, rather, in Hambarine, the attack in Kozarac, the

16     counter-attack on Kozarac, the attack in Prijedor.  Did you establish in

17     your work that these were organised attacks which were part of a single

18     plan, or do you believe them to be individual incidents, all of these?

19        A.   Are you talking about the attacks by the VRS or are you talking

20     about the attacks that the non-Serbs conducted on the VRS?

21        Q.   I'm talking about the non-Serbs who launched attacks against VRS

22     members.

23        A.   I argue that in the report that these are low-level incidents.

24     For example, the attack on Hambarine was the attack on a check-point.

25     The Kozarac attack was -- was on a travelling convoy, an ambush.  The

Page 19621

 1     attack on Prijedor at the end of May was a slightly larger affair in that

 2     they tried to -- killed some soldiers on a bridge and tried to attack a

 3     hotel, which they set fire to, but they were overwhelmed very quickly.

 4     These were relatively low-level incidents, not necessarily something I

 5     saw as a widespread co-ordinated attack in that municipality or around

 6     municipalities in that area.  There were -- there was an incident in

 7     Kljuc a little bit around that time.  But, again, it was an attack on a

 8     convoy.  And these were relatively low-level -- relatively low-level

 9     incidents.  And the response was overwhelming and quick and resulted in

10     thousands of people being taken from those municipalities.

11             So if the question is:  Do I think it was -- the attacks

12     happened?  Yes, they did.  But my point is that they were small

13     incidents.  And around that time anyway, the Bosnian Serbs had taken

14     control of those municipalities and were planning operations involving

15     the police and the military to disarm units in those areas.

16             So they happened within that context, not part of some planned,

17     large-scale operation that I saw from the documents that the non-Serb

18     population were conducting.

19        Q.   Have you heard of plans to join this part of Prijedor with Bihac,

20     precisely by these military actions?

21        A.   No, I haven't.  And I wouldn't necessarily see attacking a

22     check-point on a road or ambushing a convoy as indicative of a wider plan

23     to secure territory that would link Bihac and Prijedor.  I think it might

24     take a little bit more than that.

25        Q.   Did you come across a list of members of Territorial Defence in

Page 19622

 1     Kozarac - I mean, the Muslims - who were around 3500 in their number

 2     while you were writing your report?

 3        A.   I believe that is a document I referenced in my Prijedor report,

 4     yes.  And I think I discussed that there.  Is this that handwritten list

 5     of individuals?  It's some time since I've seen that document, and I

 6     think when I reviewed it many years ago that this seemed to be a proposal

 7     or a list of names of a localised structure that they were trying to

 8     establish.  And that many of them had -- I'm -- if this is the right

 9     document, many of them had few weapons.  So I do remember that document.

10     But did I see 3.500 armed individuals in Prijedor when the attacks

11     happened in late -- late May, no, I didn't.  And I didn't see evidence,

12     documentary evidence, of weapons seizures that would indicate that they

13     had three and a half thousand armed men, nor did I see from the documents

14     that the VRS forces that operated there can -- were -- were having to

15     overcome a strength of that size and that -- the fact that they took

16     control of the territory within days would seem indicative that that

17     document was either a planning document or an intention that was not

18     fulfilled.

19        Q.   Whether the document was planned or not, do you remember that

20     there were signatures in this document, signatures of people whose names

21     have been typed?

22        A.   I'll take it at face value that's what it was, sir.  It's a long

23     time since I've seen the document.

24        Q.   All right.  Fine.  Now we'll move to the Kljuc municipality.  In

25     your report, also on page 87, that we are already at --

Page 19623

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the previous --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Indiscernible]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- document you are talking about, you didn't

 4     identify it.  The witness apparently knew it.  You put a useless question

 5     to the witness whether he came across that because he says, I referred to

 6     it in my report.  You can't do that if you haven't come across.  Then you

 7     didn't ask any question.  The witness said -- assuming that that was the

 8     question that he gave the explanation, he says he has given in his report

 9     already, and there was something about signatures and there was no

10     follow-up on that either.  So there may be signatures.  There may not be

11     signatures.  What that means -- it's totally unclear to us, so that's

12     another couple of minutes wasted.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we saw that document before in this

14     court.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you tell the Court -- yes, if you think that

16     every list of 3.000 that I would immediately know by heart what it is,

17     then give a clear reference to what the report is and I'll look at that

18     on my screen.  If you don't put it on the screen, I'll do it myself for

19     myself.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] So now we shall move on to the Kljuc

24     municipality, also on this page --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, I have to deliver a decision and

Page 19624

 1     that is a decision which we would prefer not to delay.

 2             Therefore, I suggest that we take a break a little bit earlier.

 3     We would like to see you back in a little bit over 20 minute, Mr. Brown,

 4     and you may follow the usher.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  While he is exiting there was the one document he

 9     had asked to read.  If the Defence -- it's the Krupe report.  If the

10     Defence has no objection, we'd provide it to the usher to give to him

11     over the break.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We never have any objection for the witness to

13     analyse any document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Only to read.  That takes too much time.

15             No, I -- the Madam Registrar, you'll take care that once the

16     usher has returned that he'll provide his services.

17             Then I would like to deliver the Chamber's decision on the

18     Defence notice, objection and motion, to bar Witness Treanor from

19     testifying as an expert that was filed on the 25th of October, 2013.

20             The Prosecution has not responded to this motion.  It provided

21     the Defence with the expert report through a notice of the

22     25th of September of this year.

23             With regard to the applicable law concerning expert evidence, the

24     Chamber refers to its decision concerning Richard Butler, a decision

25     which was filed on 19th of October, 2012.

Page 19625

 1             With regard to Treanor's expertise, the Defence submits that

 2     Treanor should be disqualified as an expert and the Prosecution should be

 3     barred from presenting his evidence.  According to the Prosecution,

 4     Treanor was a senior search officer in the leadership research team of

 5     the Office of the Prosecutor.  Treanor's work consisted primarily of

 6     collecting and analysing original documentary and published material

 7     relating to, inter alia, the Serbian Democratic Party, or the SDS, and

 8     the Bosnian Serb leadership.  His work culminated in several expert

 9     reports which have been used in different cases before the Tribunal.  The

10     Prosecution submits that he will provide evidence on the political and

11     military background of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia and the

12     development of the Serbian leadership before, during, and after the war.

13             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber is satisfied that Treanor is

14     an expert who can assist the Chamber on matters related to the political

15     and military background to the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, and, in

16     particular, the SDS and the Bosnian Serb leadership.

17             As for any arguments related to the content and methodology of

18     the Treanor report and about the impartially or independence of Treanor,

19     the Chamber considers that such matters can and should be addressed

20     during the examination of the witness.  With regard to the Defence

21     request to cross-examine the witness, the Chamber notes that he will be

22     called to testify and the Defence will therefore have an opportunity to

23     cross-examine him.

24             Based on the foregoing, the Chamber decides that Treanor may

25     testify as an expert witness and denies the Defence request to bar the

Page 19626

 1     Prosecution from presenting his evidence.

 2             Finally, the Prosecution indicates that it only intends to rely

 3     on specific portions of Treanor's reports and it lists in its notice the

 4     relevant paragraphs.  The Chamber understands that only the portions

 5     indicated are being tendered into evidence, and will confine its

 6     assessment of the admissibility of the reports to them.  It also expects

 7     the parties' examination of the witness to be focussed on these portions.

 8             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

 9             We take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be brought

13     in, Mr. Lukic the Chamber has considered your question to the witness,

14     whether he was available next week.  The Chamber expects you to conclude

15     your cross-examination tomorrow and that is based on our observing the

16     way in which you conducted your cross-examination, relevance, time spent

17     on matters without any follow-up.  Many reasons.  It's monitoring

18     carefully your cross-examination which led us to this conclusion.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Brown, we left it off with paragraph 2.75 of your report.  In

23     the second half of that paragraph, you say in Kljuc, several incidents

24     happened even before the attack on that municipality:  The killing of a

25     Serb policeman; an ambush on a bus that transported recruits through

Page 19627

 1     Sanski Most; seven Serbian soldiers arrested by members of the Muslim TO.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] and I would now like to call up D358.

 3             This document was issued by the public security station in Kljuc.

 4     It was issued in July 1992.

 5             We're interested in page 10 in the B/C/S version.  The same

 6     information can be found on page 6 of the English version of the

 7     document.

 8        Q.   I will go quickly through the document.  Under number 1 here, we

 9     can see that an ambush was set up in the Ramici sector.  It is stated in

10     here that the assistant commander of the police station in Kljuc,

11     Dusan Stojkovic, was fatally wounded, and also that some other police

12     officers were wounded.

13             On the following page, in the English version, under

14     bullet point 2, it says that a military convoy was attacked.  The two

15     soldiers were killed and a lorry driver as well.  That six soldiers were

16     seriously injured and 29 sustained slight injures.  Of those who were

17     wounded, four succumbed to their wounds.

18             Under 3, we can see that an ambush was set up in the Tocina

19     sector.

20             Under 4, that the road between the villages of Velagici and

21     Laniste was blown up.

22             Under 5, we can see that there was an attack on the check-point

23     in Velagici.  It says here that a few days before that, on the

24     25th of May, 1992, and you will find that under bullet point 6, seven

25     Serb soldiers were captured.

Page 19628

 1             My question to you, sir, is this:  Do you consider this to be

 2     isolated incidents that had nothing to do with each other; or would you

 3     say that all those things were synchronised?

 4        A.   Well, I -- I can't say for sure that they were synchronised.

 5     They're obviously all taking -- occurring in and around the same areas

 6     which, I believe, are non-Serb villages.  So I don't doubt these

 7     incidents occurred, and I make mention of them in my report.

 8        Q.   All of those things happened on the same day, didn't they?

 9        A.   It -- it would appear so.

10        Q.   So what would be your answer then?  Were those things

11     synchronised or not?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has answered that question that he

13     doesn't know that it -- and he says it was on the same day.  That's it,

14     Mr. -- that's --

15             Unless the witness has any further knowledge.  He says he doesn't

16     have it.

17             I take it that it's Defence's position that it was synchronised.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] All of those things happened far from the

20     front line, didn't they?

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where was the front line, Mr. Lukic?

22             MR. LUKIC:  One of the front lines was in Croatia.  And the other

23     one is south, toward Travnik.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't -- I -- I wouldn't necessarily agree

Page 19629

 1     that a front line in that classical sense.  There was conflict,

 2     certainly, in other areas.  Obviously there was convict going on in

 3     Croatia but there were -- and there was places like the corridor.  At

 4     this time, it -- there wasn't -- it's not a classic war where there was

 5     necessarily very, very clearly defined front lines.  There did come that

 6     time when territory was marked out.  This is not taking place in classic

 7     front lines, but there were operations going on in and around this time

 8     in those municipalities.

 9             So it's a little bit less clear than maybe you -- you articulate.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In your report, you characterise all of those things as minor

12     incidents.  However, we can see that, as a result of those incidents,

13     50 Serbian soldiers became disabled in the course of just one day.

14             According to you, what should happen to qualify something as more

15     than just a minor incident?

16        A.   I -- I don't downplay that these incidents, you know, had an

17     importance and that they -- that they occurred.

18             My -- my contention is that certainly in relation to what

19     happened as a result of these incidents and the operations that took

20     place in and around that time on the municipalities when the response of

21     the VRS was to take control of these areas incredibly quickly and to

22     round up hundreds and thousands of individuals from those areas and to

23     take them into detention.  That's the contention.  I'm not -- I don't

24     argue that -- these certainly weren't minor incidents from the victims'

25     perspective.  And in Kljuc, in particular, there were a number of

Page 19630

 1     incidents and some of them related to Kljuc, some of them related to JNA

 2     soldiers that were coming from Knin, I believe, so I don't downplay the

 3     incidents, in particular.  But in -- certainly they were relatively minor

 4     in -- in relation to the response and what happened later.

 5             You know, I don't downplay them.  But they still were relatively

 6     small incidents with relatively small numbers of casualties.

 7        Q.   So what would then be your position?  Was the VRS supposed to

 8     react; or was it supposed to sit and wait for further attacks and then

 9     react?

10        A.   My argument is that many of these incident are occurring in and

11     around already pre-planned operations to take control of territory.

12     After the 12th of May, in particular, assembly session, there was a

13     desire to control the territory that was deemed Serb.  So, yes, there

14     were these incidents, but they took place predominantly in non-Serb

15     villages with that backdrop.

16             Now, in relation to what should the VRS, at this time, it was the

17     VRS, do or the JNA do, if they're attacked, clearly militaries have a

18     right to respond to attacks and to take proportionate, legal measures in

19     order to respond to those attacks, which could be to try and identify

20     perpetrators which might be taking military action in that regard.  Of

21     course that's the rights of -- of -- of militaries if they're attacked.

22     But bearing in mind this backdrop of a desire to control territory, the

23     operations that were conducted in and around that time by the VRS, did

24     not seem to be the sort of response, a measured proportion response, to

25     this type of -- of activity.  What happened was that within a day or so,

Page 19631

 1     or two days of this -- these incidents in May, large number, hundreds of

 2     individuals in Kljuc municipality -- well, firstly there were attacks on

 3     non-Serb villages, and hundreds of individuals from Kljuc municipality

 4     were taken into detention camps for which they were subsequently not

 5     released until many months later and sent as refugees.  That, for me,

 6     does not seem to be a proportionate and measured response to this type of

 7     activity, if that's what it was.

 8        Q.   Your response, which is quite elaborated, is based on the

 9     assumption that you analysed the military actions of Muslims and Croats

10     and their strength.  However, would you agree with me that in your

11     analysis you did not deal with the military activities of the Muslim and

12     Croat militaries at all?

13        A.   No, that was not the main focus of my -- of my -- of my report.

14     The Krajina Corps archive documents did make some references to armed

15     groups.  They themselves were not incredibly detailed about the strengths

16     and compositions of -- of armed groups in their own documents, and the

17     fact that the VRS was able to use the weaponry that they had which, in

18     essence, was JNA material, and to take over the -- these areas incredibly

19     quickly leads me to the conclusion that whatever armed resistance or

20     whatever armed groups were operating in these municipalities were not

21     particularly strong and were not particularly well armed, certainly in

22     relation to the weaponry of the VRS.

23             But, no, I did not look in detail at every single issue relating

24     to the military strength of the Muslims and Croats.

25        Q.   You will agree with me, then, that for a proper assessment of a

Page 19632

 1     military on the ground, one should first start by assessing the strength

 2     of the enemy side.

 3        A.   Sir, all I can say is that I lay out at the beginning of my

 4     report that there are limitations to the report.  I put that at the

 5     beginning.  This is a report based predominantly on the archives of the

 6     1st Krajina Corps.  It is not a report on every single aspect relating to

 7     the conflict in Bosnia, let alone every single aspect relating to the

 8     conflict in the Krajina.

 9             I used the materials as best I could.  I think I might still be

10     writing it if I had to look at every single aspect.  But there are

11     limitations, and I accept those, and I point those out at the beginning

12     of the report.

13        Q.   Our suggestions is that your methodology is completely wrong, not

14     that it is limited.  That you studied the situation on the ground by

15     studying just one side, completely ignoring the other.

16             I would like to ask you this:  Were you privy to the

17     documentation issued by the BiH army while you were a member of the

18     Prosecution team of this Tribunal?

19        A.   I was aware that other analysts were looking at other aspects in

20     different parts of Bosnia and the conflict there, but I did not look at

21     BiH material in relation to the writing of this report.  It was formed

22     predominantly on the basis of the Krajina archive.

23        Q.   When you were talking about the strength -- on the lack of

24     strength of the Muslim side, did you come across the information that of

25     the 65.000 members of the 1st Krajina Corps, 2.953 were killed and that

Page 19633

 1     13.324 soldiers were wounded in combat with the Croatian and Muslim

 2     forces?

 3        A.   In -- in which period are you talking about, sir?  Is this 1992

 4     or is it through the war?

 5        Q.   Did you ever come across this information at all?  And I'm

 6     referring specifically to the year 1992.

 7        A.   I'm aware that a large number of soldiers in the Krajina Corps

 8     were killed.  The Krajina Corps was not just operating in the

 9     municipalities we've been talking about now, but they were on other parts

10     of their -- their border.  They suffered casualties, some casualties in

11     operation corridor, for example, and the continuing operations to expand

12     that corridor.  They had casualties in operations against Jajce, in

13     particular, and defending the border in Travnik, Bugojno, that sort of

14     southern area, and they also launched operations, I believe, in the sort

15     of Doboj Majevica hill area.  So they were conducting military operations

16     throughout the -- 1992, and they did suffer casualties, absolutely.

17             They also suffered a very small number of casualties during these

18     municipality operations but the bulk, I believe, were to do with these

19     other areas.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise for intervening.  I've located the

23     reference for the casualty numbers Mr. Lukic referred to that I think he

24     has in mind.  But if he has a reference for the 65.000 number, I -- I'd

25     appreciate it, of the total strength of the corps.

Page 19634

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And apart from that, Mr. Lukic, could you

 2     also, by looking at the source for the 2.953, to tell us whether that is

 3     1992 only or mainly 1992, whether we have any further --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  That data --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- details.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- I have for 1992.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  For 1992.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Later on, that strength of this corps increased.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  What's the -- Mr. -- the 65.000 are found

10     where, but ...

11             MR. TRALDI:  That was my question.  That's -- the 65.000 number

12     is the number that I hadn't been able to find, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Where does that come from?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Comes from transcript I found in -- from the

15     cross-examination of this witness --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not in evidence before us, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  The evidence.  We have 1D1474, that this data was

18     presented to this witness, if you want to look at it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then, did the witness then confirm --

20             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]... I could not -- find that

21     the document that this transcript is referring to, but I'm sure we will

22     find it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what exactly is the source for 2.953?

24     Where does the Chamber find that in the evidence; or is it not in

25     evidence at this moment?

Page 19635

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sure we will provide that in the future.  But if

 2     you want, we can see 1474.  It's a transcript from Stanisic and

 3     Zupljanin.  It's in e-court --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You say it's 1474 --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is the page number in Stanisic and Zupljanin.  Is

 7     that --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Sixty-seven is in e-court, page number.  In

 9     e-court, 67.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  E-court of what exactly?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The number of the document is 1D1474.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, 1D --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's a Defence document.  The last on the list.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And it has not been put on our screens yet.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Not yet.  If you want, we can put it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'd like to --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have then D1474 in e-court.  We need page 67,

18     lines 9 -- 17, 18.  This is the data I found.

19             Obviously there was some document.  It is mentioning the page 47

20     and there are losses per month.  So -- but I was not able to locate the

21     document by the number given in this transcript.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- it's rather mysterious what I read there,

23     but ...

24             Would you put a question to the witness.  Because, until now, I

25     see the number appearing in a question rather than in -- in the answer.

Page 19636

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Brown, do you remember the cross-examination in the Stanisic

 3     case?  Were you shown this particular document which supported the

 4     questions put to you?

 5        A.   I don't remember the specific document.  It may well have been

 6     the combat analysis report.  It may well have been the 1st Krajina Corps'

 7     own combat analysis report, I'm not sure.  But I thought the strength of

 8     the corps was higher than that.  But if this document articulates that

 9     2.000, nearly 3.000 soldiers had been killed, then I take that at face

10     value.  As I explained before, I don't -- I don't deny that the corps was

11     involved in operations, other operations in other areas for -- for some

12     time.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we cannot go any further at this moment.

14     Your Honour, I would move on to the next area.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] And now let us discuss forceable transfer.

18             In your report, under 1.43 and 1.44, you criticise the work of

19     the Serbian members of parliament.  We already discussed that and you

20     have the minutes of that particular session.

21             You singled out General Mladic's position as one of those who was

22     against the transfer of the population.  In your work, did you come

23     across the fact that other peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina participated

24     in the negotiations that resulted in the division of municipalities along

25     the ethnic lines?

Page 19637

 1        A.   Just to go back to your point I single out Mladic's position as

 2     being against the transfer of population, I suggest that he warns, or I

 3     think in my phrase is articulates a note of caution about this issue of

 4     moving peoples and what it may mean for the leadership if -- if this

 5     becomes known.

 6             Now, the question you've asked is, did I come across the fact

 7     that other peoples in Bosnia participated in negotiations that resulted

 8     in the division of municipalities along ethnic lines.  Can you -- are you

 9     asking whether I knew about what was going on in known Serb

10     municipalities or in territories inside BH republic?  Then the answer is

11     it's not part of my report.  I don't -- I don't know what was going on in

12     those municipalities, but I do know that there were movements out in

13     other areas of Serbs where they were vulnerable.  But it wasn't a key

14     area of my report.

15        Q.   [In English] I'm sorry if I was not clear.  Do you know about

16     negotiations done by Muslims and Croats in Krajina area with Serbs on

17     division of municipalities?  And have you found it in your work?

18        A.   No.  The -- the focus of my report was not about the political

19     negotiations, per se.  It was based on the military archives and the

20     military documents.  I am aware that -- that there were negotiations in

21     certain municipalities about -- but it's not an area that I'm -- that I'm

22     really across.  It wasn't really the focus of my work.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] All right.  Now I would like us to look at a

24     document which is already an exhibit.  It's P2366.

25             Have you come across such documents while preparing your report,

Page 19638

 1     documents from Republika Srpska?  And I would ask you to focus primarily

 2     on item 1 of this document ordering that the soldiers who have acted

 3     inhumanely, if they're prone to committing genocide against the

 4     population, should be sent away, also those who have a tendency to

 5     destroy and burn down buildings.  And let us also look at item number 6,

 6     please.  In B/C/S, it's on the following page.  In this item, the brigade

 7     commanders are tasked with taking disciplinary and legal action.

 8             First of all, do you remember if you possessed this document at

 9     the time when you wrote the report?

10        A.   It's not a document I recognise.  I -- I don't know if I

11     footnoted this in my report or not, but it's not a document that I

12     specifically recognise.  I do, however, make reference to a number of

13     documents, other documents, of a similar nature which have been passed

14     down by the -- the corps and, in fact, the Main Staff in and around this

15     period about similar issues that they are to take measures against an

16     array of offences, including some of the ones identified here.  And those

17     I have referenced in my report.

18        Q.   Even though you can see the English version on the screen, I

19     would ask for your report to be shown on the screen; P2859, please.  And

20     we will need the extract in both languages.

21             In English, we need page 97, moving on to page 98.  And, in the

22     B/C/S version, we need page 100.  We are interested in paragraph 2.100.

23             And let us read -- in the last sentence in the English version

24     that we can see now.  Then we'll move onto the text page:

25             [In English] "The same report also noted that because Muslim

Page 19639

 1     extremists had failed to hand in their weapons, the Muslim population of

 2     the area of Lisnja village in Prnjavor municipality had been expelled."

 3             In B/C/S, we have to return to the previous page, paragraph --

 4     yes.

 5             [Interpretation] In the B/C/S version, the word under quotation

 6     marks is, "moved out."  In the English version, it reads, "expelled."

 7             In our view, there is a mistake in translation and, therefore,

 8     the conclusions cannot be the same.

 9             Therefore, we would like to call up the document that you are

10     referring to here, and we need 65 ter 02837.  It's a Prosecution

11     document.  And we're interested in item 2.  That's where that text comes

12     from.

13             We can also see the difference here in the B/C/S version.  I

14     shall read it, the last paragraph in this section and it's also the last

15     paragraph under item 2 in the English version.  In the English language

16     it says -- it's in the area in English and I shall read it in B/C/S:

17             "In the Derventa sector there is still occasional artillery fire

18     whereas in the Lisnja village sector, due to the fact that the Muslim

19     extremists have not handed over their weapons, the Muslim population has

20     been moved out."

21             According to the original document, the population has been moved

22     out.  Would you accept that due to heavy fighting, it was normal to

23     remove the civilian population, if that was possible?

24        A.   It doesn't say there was heavy fighting in Lisnja at that time in

25     this report.  No, I wouldn't say it's -- it's -- I wouldn't say it's

Page 19640

 1     normal or -- to move the population out.  I -- this seems -- I -- I defer

 2     to the translation of expelled or moving out.  I don't speak B/C/S so I

 3     was working off the translations.  This seems to be similar to what

 4     happened in other municipalities:  Deadlines to hand over weapons, either

 5     weapons not being handed over or not enough, or not handing them over,

 6     and operations which resulted in large numbers of non-Serbs being moved

 7     out or moving out of those areas after being taken under control by the

 8     VRS forces.

 9        Q.   Let us look at the next document now.  It's 65 ter 08012; another

10     Prosecution document.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, at the same time, you put to the witness

12     heavy fighting.  The document reads:  There continues to be occasional

13     artillery fire.

14             Occasional artillery fire.  Is it the position of the Defence

15     that for that reason you have to move out the whole of the population?

16     Is that the position taken by the Defence?  Then it's clear to us.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Our position is definitely.  If there is fighting to

18     start, army has a duty to remove civilian population, if possible.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which army, the attacking army or the defending

20     army?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Any army.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any army.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It should be [overlapping speakers]... should be

24     removed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And in the Defence's position is there any

Page 19641

 1     obligation to allow them to return to where they had been removed from?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay, that's clear.  And you say occasionally

 4     artillery fire, as described here, would -- nevertheless would justify to

 5     take out the whole of the population?

 6             THE WITNESS:  I think so --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon.  I'm asking for the position of

 8     the Defence.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe it is introduction for heavy fighting,

10     occasional --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say whenever there is a possibility of heavy

12     fighting in the future, and we could ask the witness whether he has

13     analysed what happened at this moment in time, whether the fighting was

14     over or whether there was still a lot of fighting to be expected, but

15     even then you already removed the whole of the population.  And that's

16     the position of the Defence.  Okay.  That's clear.

17             Could you tell us what is described here as the Muslim population

18     of the area of Lisnja village having been removed, whether, on the basis

19     of the military situation at that moment, that heavy fighting could be

20     expected in the near future of that moment.

21             THE WITNESS:  I would separate Derventa and Lisnja.  So they're

22     two different areas.  So Lisnja is in Prnjavor municipality, I believe,

23     and Derventa is elsewhere.  So I think they're actually referring to

24     shelling in one area then what's happening Prnjavor, in Lisnja, is --

25     even though they haven't written it well.

Page 19642

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Let's -- then I stand corrected for

 2     misunderstanding what perhaps is not clearly written.

 3             In Lisnja village was there -- to your knowledge, was there any

 4     heavy fighting ongoing at the time when the population [Realtime

 5     transcript read in error "proposition"] was removed?

 6             THE WITNESS:  Not to my knowledge, sir.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to your knowledge.  Was the military situation

 8     such that you could expect in the near future on from the moment when the

 9     population was removed that heavy fighting would break out?

10             THE WITNESS:  I did not see in the document, sir, that the

11     Krajina Corps was operating in a military -- in military operations in

12     Prnjavor in that way.  I -- I didn't see combat action at all.  And I

13     think this is related very much to the issue of the disarmament

14     deadlines.  But I -- to answer your question, I didn't see heavy fighting

15     in Lisnja around this time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from what you saw, was there any objective

17     reason to expect, although it did not happen, that such heavy fighting

18     would develop in the Lisnja area?

19             THE WITNESS:  No.  I didn't see anything to give me that

20     impression, sir.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, Mr. Lukic on page 37, line 19,

25     in the question by Judge Orie, he said, "... ongoing at the time when the

Page 19643

 1     population was removed."  What's written instead of "population" is

 2     "proposition."  If that could be corrected.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I should slow down now and then as well.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Is it correct that at the time Derventa, which is the next town

 7     after Prnjavor was under Croatian control and that the line was in that

 8     area between Derventa and Prnjavor?  I mean the confrontation line.

 9        A.   I don't believe the confrontation line was close to Lisnja.  But,

10     yes, there was operations in the municipality of Derventa, which was part

11     of that corridor area.

12        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now let us look at the document which we

13     have on the screen.

14             We can see a document which is entitled:  "Instructions."  We

15     have already mentioned the Arapusa village.  So these are instructions

16     for the evacuation of the population and refugees from the Arapusa local

17     commune.  And it reads:

18             "Pursuant to the order by the War Staff Command of the Serbian

19     municipality of Bosanska Krupa dated 29th of April, 1992, which orders

20     evacuation of residents from the Arapusa local commune together with

21     refugees from Bosanska Krupa, the Executive Committee of the Arapusa

22     local commune has completed preparations for the evacuation of the

23     population."

24             And then the first bullet:

25             "All residents of Arapusa and refugees from Bosanska Krupa, 460

Page 19644

 1     people in total, will be evacuated."

 2             In B/C/S version, we need the following page, please.  And in the

 3     English version, I'm going to read out the penultimate paragraph.  It

 4     reads, I quote:

 5             "On the basis of the agreement with the War Staff Command of the

 6     Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa (with Mr. Miroslav Vjestica), as

 7     soon as peacetime conditions have been created, the command is obliged to

 8     ensure the safe return of the residents to their homes in Arapusa and the

 9     refugees to Bosanska Krupa."

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it the position of the Defence that they were

11     returned when peacetime conditions came?

12             MR. LUKIC:  The position is also if it's possible.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was not to explain why it may not have

14     happened.  Judge Moloto asked whether it's the Defence's position that

15     they returned.  That's a simple question.

16             Next question could be --

17             MR. LUKIC:  I -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If they did not return, why they did not return.

19     That's the next question.

20             Is it the position of the Defence that they did return?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I don't -- I don't know from this document that it's

22     possible to conclude.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The question is what the Defence's position is.

24     Because you introduced this document as an apparent indication of

25     fulfilling or awareness and -- intention to fulfil obligations.

Page 19645

 1             Now, the question which was put by Judge Moloto was what they

 2     said they committed themselves to, whether that happened yes or no.  If

 3     you --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I [overlapping speakers]...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If the Defence has any position --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have any position, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Might be relevant for the totality of ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Green light, okay.  You are aware that this

10     paragraph says that the command is obliged to ensure the safe return of

11     the -- of the residents.  Now, is it the position of the -- the Defence

12     that the command did comply with that obligation?

13             MR. LUKIC:  We have no position.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether or not successfully it is not the point.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Oh.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But did it comply with the -- okay.  Thank you so

17     much.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   With regard to this document, I will ask you this:  In your work,

20     did you see that there were War Staff Commands in the Serbian

21     municipalities; and, if you did, what their role was in terms of

22     commanding units.

23        A.   I -- I didn't see them necessarily called War Staff Commands.

24     There were a number of names:  Crisis Staffs, crisis committees.  Did I

25     see the Crisis Staffs or War Staffs or crisis committees commanding

Page 19646

 1     units?  No.  There were one or two examples, I think.  I think I quote

 2     certainly one example from Sanski Most, which would seem to imply some

 3     kind of order to the brigade.  But, on the whole, I didn't see them

 4     commanding the VRS and units of the VRS.  I saw them as a co-operative

 5     body which had military representation, yes; and there were decisions

 6     taken about security matters in those municipalities.  But I didn't see

 7     them commanding the army, even though there were maybe one or two little

 8     examples that would seem to imply that.  General Talic commanded his

 9     corps, and General Mladic commanded the 1st Krajina Corps.

10             In relation to this document that -- if you want me to comment on

11     this document, there are some echos with the previous document you asked

12     me to review during the break.  It makes specific reference to the Muslim

13     villages - this is the document you asked me to review, that is - that

14     they were, in essence, given an ultimatum that they could either stay and

15     work -- operate under the Serbian authority or that they would leave, and

16     I'm assuming this is a document that signed that agreement.  Whether they

17     had any desire to keep them there or whether they had that clause in just

18     to say that they would have these individuals back, I don't know, but

19     there were other areas referenced in the document you asked me to review

20     during the break saying that Muslim villages that didn't agree were

21     attacked militarily in Krupe.

22             It is also of note that Miroslav Vjestica, who was a senior

23     figure in Krupe and who is referenced in the document and also as a key

24     player in the document you asked me to review, in which he is articulated

25     as providing arms to the Serbs in the build-up in this municipality, he

Page 19647

 1     is also a delegate who speaks at the 16th Assembly Session.  And he talks

 2     at that session about this issue of the removal or the movement out of

 3     the Muslim population from the right bank of the -- of the Una River, and

 4     he says in his speech there that will these people come back?  And he

 5     said, With the happy news that the president has articulated the Una

 6     river as a border, no, they won't.  And I might be paraphrasing it a

 7     little bit because I haven't looked at the exact quote.

 8             So there may be some context behind this.  This document may be

 9     one that is being given as a document to the locals in this area to say,

10     We will bring you back when the thing calms down.  But his comments at

11     the 16th Assembly Session gave you the impression that these people will

12     not come back now that the president has articulated that the fourth

13     strategic goal which is to have a border on the Una river for which this

14     municipality is on the front line, that is that these people will not

15     come back.

16             I'm sorry, Your Honours, to be a little bit more long-winded in

17     that respect.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would tender this document.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08012 receives number D417,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D417 is admitted.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   I will briefly ask you whether you have seen that the presidents

25     of Crisis Staffs, or as it reads here War Staff Commands, commanded

Page 19648

 1     Territorial Defence units?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one -- one other question.

 3             Battalion command, which is referred to in the document, which

 4     battalion do you consider that to be?  Where Mr. Erceg I think is the

 5     battalion commander and a certain Mr. Jez seems to be -- play a role.

 6     Are these names familiar to you?

 7             THE WITNESS:  They are not, sir.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  They are not.  Thank you.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now I would like us to move to the paragraph of your report 2.134

12     which is on page 110 in English version, and 112 in the B/C/S version.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we're approximately at the time where we

14     would take a break.  So before we move to a new area --

15             MR. LUKIC:  We can take the break.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted out of the

17     courtroom.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at ten minutes past

20     12.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.50 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Brown.

Page 19649

 1             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             I forgot to tender a document into evidence.  It's -- it is

 4     65 ter 02837.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02837 receives number D418,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D418 is admitted.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Brown, we said we would focus on your paragraph 2.135 and

11     where you say somewhere in the middle of the paragraph:

12             "In early May, the corps reported that people were afraid and

13     that they were fleeing certain areas."

14             The footnote is 520 for the document that we're going to see

15     together now.  This is 65 ter 09843.

16             We can see that this document was issued by the command of the

17     5th Corps on the 6th of May, 1992.  Would you agree with me that, on the

18     following page -- or, rather, in English, we need page 2; and in the

19     B/C/S version, we need page 3.

20             This would be the last paragraph under 3.  In the B/C/S version,

21     it will be the first paragraph on top of the page.

22             It says here:

23             "People are afraid and panic-stricken.  Many people are fleeing

24     to other parts of the country."

25             Would you agree with me that this document does not specify the

Page 19650

 1     ethnicity of those people who were panic-stricken.  It applies across the

 2     board to all the people who resided in the area.

 3        A.   You're right, sir, it doesn't make mention of the ethnicity.

 4             I would assess that it's most likely referring to the areas in

 5     the preceding lines.  So, most likely the areas of Bugojno, Jajce

 6     Donji Vakuf and the Vlasic areas.  So I would suspect that the emphasis

 7     is in those areas, and I believe at that time there was movement of

 8     individuals in -- in that area.  I don't think it refers to the whole of

 9     the Krajina Corps -- well, the 5th Corps at this time, but the 5th Corps

10     zone.  Put it like that.

11        Q.   In your work, did you come across the information, according to

12     which, everybody was leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina or the area of

13     Krajina to be more precise.  Everybody:  The Serb, the Muslims, the

14     Croats.

15        A.   No, sir, I don't believe everybody was moving in the Krajina,

16     all -- all nationalities and all peoples, no.  Were there examples where

17     Serbs were fleeing, yes, in some areas.  But your question seems to imply

18     that everybody was packing their bags and off.

19        Q.   No, it was not my intention to say that everybody was leaving

20     because nobody would remain.  The intention of my question was to ask you

21     whether individuals belonging to all the three peoples were moving out of

22     the Autonomous Region of Krajina.  I believe that you've answered that

23     question.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- one second, please.

25             Of course, the most relevant question is whether people from the

Page 19651

 1     various ethnicity fled in an equal -- in equal numbers or in equal

 2     proportions from where they had been living.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I don't see that, sir.  What I saw was there were

 4     some references in that early part of May, like it's been referenced in

 5     this document, references to fleeing where it may not necessarily specify

 6     the ethnicity.  What I saw later from late May into June and other months

 7     was that the overwhelming majority of the reports referenced Muslims and

 8     Croats leaving the Krajina.  There were references in the Krajina

 9     documents to other parts of Bosnia where Serbs were fleeing.  For

10     example, I remember Jajce as being one area in May, where Serbs were

11     leaving.  That is a predominantly Croat, I believe, area.  And there were

12     references, again, I can't remember the specific ones, but references to

13     Serbs in Central Bosnia leaving.  But, in relation to the majority of the

14     reports that reference the moving out of populations in the

15     1 Krajina Corps document, the majority refer to non-Serbs fleeing or

16     being moved out or leaving the Krajina area, not Serbs leaving the

17     Krajina area.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             THE WITNESS:  I would add one exception which is the corridor.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The last sentence says:

23             "A few days after the beginning of war operations in Prijedor,

24     Sanski Most, the 1st Corps reports that the population is afraid and

25     concerned and the pressure to move out of the area is on the rise."

Page 19652

 1             However, before we leave this document, I would like to tender it

 2     into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 09843 receives number D419,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D419 is admitted.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In your footnote 521, you refer to a document which we are going

 9     to see together.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would to call up 65 ter 02836.

11     It's a Prosecutor's document in this case.

12        Q.   According to you, this is the cause why people are leaving.  I'd

13     like to see page 1 in both versions.  And under 1, the second

14     paragraph starts with the following words:

15             "The Green Berets have been pushed back from the area of Jezero

16     and Sipovo.  The black shirts, too, have been deployed in the general

17     area of Travnik where preparations are under way for an attack on

18     Skender Vakuf.  In the area of Vrhpolje, Sanski Most, the Green Berets

19     have captured six of our soldiers.  There is the highest degree of

20     tensions present throughout the area and the expectations of a general

21     uprising and assaults against all facilities and organs of authority."

22             As a matter of fact, this implies that the Serb authorities were

23     expected to come under attack; right?  The date is 4 June 1992, mind you.

24        A.   The document doesn't necessarily make it clear but -- but it says

25     what it says that they are undoubtedly expecting attacks most possibly in

Page 19653

 1     those areas that they talk about, Travnik and other areas.  I mean, the

 2     date of the document is important too.  I mean, the date of the document

 3     is important too.  I mean, this is 4th of June.  Already places like

 4     Prijedor are under control of the VRS.  Kljuc is too.  Sanski Most is

 5     too.  So to all intents and purposes, there was continuing mopping-up

 6     operations that were continuing in the weeks and months afterwards.  But

 7     I think I quote this document in my reference because not necessarily for

 8     that issue, but that there is a direct reference that people are

 9     apprehensive and there's pressure to move out.  Well, it's most likely

10     that they were apprehensive because the municipalities that I've just

11     mentioned are being taken over by the Serbs and that large numbers of

12     people were now in detention centres.

13        Q.   At that time on the 4th of June, the 1st Krajina Corps, when they

14     say that the authorities would come under attack, what do they have in

15     mind?  Do they imply the Serb authorities or -- or some other

16     authorities?  What do you think?

17        A.   It -- it isn't made particularly explicitly clear in the

18     document, but presumably they're referencing the previous lines in the

19     areas that they're expecting the non-Serb armed opposition to attack.

20     There were attacks in those areas.  I don't deny that.  But I don't use

21     this document to -- to demonstrate that.  What I demonstrate is a little

22     bit later that there is this pressure and that people are fearful coming

23     around the time that there has already been these attacks in the

24     municipalities that I mentioned.

25        Q.   We can also see under 3 that the document says that:

Page 19654

 1             "The crisis areas are Kljuc, Sanski Most, Prijedor and

 2     Donji Vakuf and that they are under the control of the 1st Krajina Corps

 3     units.  However, the population is fearful and apprehensive of the

 4     possibly escalation of new conflict, while the pressure to move out is

 5     increasing."

 6             In your work, did you find evidence that people left the area

 7     because they were apprehensive of new conflicts?

 8        A.   Well, my report mentions a lot of phrases that are used in

 9     relation to -- to this.  Some would be characterised in that -- in that

10     manner.  There's other issues about more forceful removals and pressure

11     to have people moved in exchange for Serbs in other areas.  So they use

12     various terminologies and I referenced a few of those in this particular

13     section.

14             You might want to beg -- maybe the report begs the question about

15     why people are being pressured to move out and why people are fearful.

16     Well, maybe it's because of the activity that has been happening in the

17     municipalities and -- in days or weeks before this report was written and

18     activities which continued in areas after this date.

19        Q.   Very well.  So this is your interpretation of the document.

20             In footnote 523, you make mention of two documents.  Again, no

21     specific reasons are given for the requests of the non-Serbian population

22     to leave the area.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And before I proceed, I would like to

24     tender the document that is currently on the screen into evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 19655

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02836 receives number D420,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D420 is admitted.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Let's focus on paragraph 2.137 in your report; page 112 in

 6     English and 114 in B/C/S.

 7             You refer to a document in the footnote 533, and in the document,

 8     it says that some Croats and Muslims are moving out and that the region

 9     of Bosnian Krajina has passed a decision that they should be allowed to

10     move out on a condition that Serbs were allowed to move out from

11     Central Bosnia and places with predominant Croat and Muslim populations.

12             Do you remember that that was a condition that was set up to

13     allow people to move out from Krajina?

14        A.   That's what the report says, that there -- these people will be

15     allowed to go, as long as Serbs can come into Krajina territory.

16        Q.   Would you agree with me that this was done in order to make a

17     relocation more difficult, not easier?

18        A.   No, I wouldn't agree with you there, sir.  This particular

19     reference and other references like it seem to me to echo much of the

20     discussion that was going on at the 16th Assembly Session.  When you read

21     the minutes of that discussion, the comments of Radovan Karadzic who

22     talks about the issue of separation and separation of those who would be

23     our enemies if they stayed in the same state, and the fact that he makes

24     mention on at least three occasions in that speech about not having large

25     numbers of people who could be regarded as against that state in RS

Page 19656

 1     territory, and the discussions, much of the discussions from the

 2     delegates which specifically make reference in some cases to this issue

 3     of resettlement of having Serbs in areas come to RS territory and

 4     non-Serbs moving out, this document is a reflection of very much the

 5     discussions that were going on at the 16th Assembly Session; namely, that

 6     the RS was going to have -- that the issue of resettlement was going to

 7     be a feature and that -- that large numbers of non-Serbs would no longer

 8     be present in that territory.

 9             This is a reflection of this issue of separation and the moving

10     of individuals from territories.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just ask a question.  The last question of this

12     quotation that Mr. Lukic quoted to you says:

13             "Those departing will not be allowed to return."

14             What was the message in the 16th Session of the assembly in terms

15     of people returning or not returning?

16             THE WITNESS:  I did not read the minute, sir, that the emphasise

17     was somehow to have this as a temporary solution to a conflict.  And this

18     document in -- as well gives me the impression that this was about

19     ensuring that there was not going to be large numbers of people not --

20     who were viewed as being against the state within it and it was going to

21     be a permanent feature.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Microphone not activated] You're telling us what

23     was not -- what you didn't pick up from the minute and that it was not

24     going to be temporary.  Did you pick up that it was going to be

25     permanent?

Page 19657

 1             THE WITNESS:  I believe the tenor of the whole debate was about

 2     two things, sir:  It was about what is the footprint that we need to

 3     control; and the second one is, how can we ensure that we do not have

 4     large numbers of people who may be viewed as being against that state in

 5     it?  And if that means relocation, so be it.  And I did not get the

 6     feeling reading the 16th Assembly Session minutes that the tenor or

 7     language or thrust was about being a temporary solution that people were

 8     somehow going to be able to come back, and I think General Mladic's

 9     comments of caution would appear to also echo that, sir.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Now that we're discussing this continuity and temporariness, let

13     us look at 1D1453.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, I'm still puzzled by one

15     of your previous questions where you asked:  Would you agree with me that

16     this was done in order to make a relocation more difficult, not easier.

17             Is it -- do I have to understand that your suggestion is that

18     they tried to keep them in by making relocation more difficult?  Is that

19     the underlying thought of that question?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Underlying thought of this question was if there is

21     another condition for leaving that it's harder to leave than without that

22     condition.  If you have the condition that somebody has to come instead

23     of you, that's harder than if you can simply leave.  That was my

24     suggestion.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And -- and that the intention behind was that to try

Page 19658

 1     to prevent people to leave, or - which is another option - that they

 2     firmly wanted to support that other people would come in and take the

 3     place of those who wanted to leave?  That's another possible

 4     interpretation of that situation.  But is it to keep them, make it more

 5     difficult so that they would not leave?  Is that ... is that the

 6     suggestion?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I think that having next documents in front of us

 8     would be more clear for everybody, and I think that the -- that

 9     standpoint changed over time but we will see, for example, through this

10     document that is on our screen.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I was just puzzled by the thoughts underlying the

12     question and we'll further look at the documents you bring to our

13     attention.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Do we have English version of this

15     document?  Okay.

16        Q.   We talked about intentions and we drew conclusions about that.

17     Let's see what's been put on paper.  This is an order.  It reads,

18     "Serbian Republic Presidency."

19             [In English] Just a second, since I skipped several pages ...

20             [Interpretation] And signed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic, the

21     president of the Serbian Republic, which we can see on the following

22     page.  And let us see what item 3 says.  Item 3 of this document dated

23     the 19th August, 1992, reads, I quote:

24             "Forcible resettlement and other illegal measures against the

25     civilian population should be prevented, and any certificates of sale of

Page 19659

 1     property or statements that refugees will not return shall be considered

 2     as legally invalid and are declared null and void."

 3             Have you come across this document while preparing your work?

 4        A.   No, I haven't, sir.

 5        Q.   Is it correct that this order is completely opposite to your

 6     conclusions such as it is contained in paragraph 2.138 of your report?

 7        A.   Well, at face value it would seem to be the case, but there might

 8     be very much a contextual aspect to this.

 9             Could we go to the top of the document, please.

10             This document seems to be written very much around the time after

11     the international community has become significantly aware of the issue

12     of the removal of people from -- well, the Krajina and other areas.  It

13     comes after the awareness in the international community of detention

14     centres and the condition of detention centres, in particular, in the

15     Krajina.  And this may explain --

16        Q.   Just a moment.  Just a moment.  This all your explanation which

17     you are giving.  But do you know whether people acted pursuant to this

18     order issued by the president of the republic or not?

19        A.   Well, I don't believe they acted according to the document that

20     he references beforehand in June.  How this was acted upon after this

21     time is -- is not something I'm aware of, but bearing in mind that

22     certainly in the Krajina a large number of people had already left by

23     this time.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would tender this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 19660

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1453 receives number D421,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   When we talk about the earlier period but after the assembly

 6     session which you mention, I would like to show you a document, 03022, a

 7     Prosecution document.

 8             We can see that these are conclusions from the meeting of the

 9     Banja Luka Crisis Staff.  Under item 1, it reads, the first conclusion:

10             "There are no reasons for the population of any ethnicity to move

11     out of the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

12             The date is the 20th of May.  Have you come across this document?

13        A.   I -- I'm not sure if I've seep this or not.  This -- I believe

14     this is a Kljuc document?  From the Kljuc municipality?

15        Q.   It reads Crisis Staff Banja Luka Autonomous Region of Krajina.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the end of the document we see Crisis Staff

17     Kljuc municipality.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, so I'm a bit perplexed now.

19        Q.   Either it is for the whole region of Krajina or Kljuc.  Have you

20     ever seen the document and have you considered it?

21        A.   I don't know if I've seen this before.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender this document into evidence,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 19661

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03022 receives number D422,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P422 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  And now I would like to call 65 ter,

 5     Prosecution number 06604.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Here we can see the conclusions which were

 7     adopted at the meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

 8     Krajina nine days after those from the previous document.  This meeting

 9     was held on the 29th of May, 1992.  That's the date when these

10     conclusions were adopted.

11             And under item 1, it reads -- we need "Conclusions."  It's at the

12     end of the page in the B/C/S version and on the following page in the

13     English version.

14             An exchange of population is discussed there.  And it reads --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see another page in English.  Yeah, now we

16     have "Conclusions," under 1.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] It reads:

18             "It has been decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish,

19     should be able to move out of the area of the Autonomous Region of

20     Krajina ..."

21             And once again we see the same that we saw a little while ago:

22             "But on condition that Serbs living outside the

23     Serbian Autonomous Districts and regions are also allowed to move into

24     the territories of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

25     Autonomous Region of Krajina.  In this manner, an exchange of population,

Page 19662

 1     or, more precisely, a resettlement of people from one part of the former

 2     SRBiH to another would be carried out in an organised manner."

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could show the following

 4     page in B/C/S, please.

 5             [In English] I cannot see it in English.

 6             We have to go back in English version.  One page back.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What text are you looking for, Mr. Lukic?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "The Crisis Staff also decided to

 9     decisively oppose any attempt of moving out the population by force or

10     under any kind of pressure and to prevent any such attempts by all

11     available legal means."

12             [In English] So I don't see that sentence in English version.

13     We'll have to compare it.  But I see it in B/C/S version.  It's second

14     paragraph on the page on our screens in the B/C/S.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is there any chance that the English

16     contains two documents and that you are looking at the second

17     paragraph on page 3, which is the second English document under this same

18     65 ter number?

19             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I believe you, Your Honour, if you saw

20     it [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's have a look at page 3 in English and

22     then page 1 in the B/C/S.

23             Now, perhaps it's the -- in B/C/S, perhaps I took the wrong page,

24     Mr. Lukic.  Was it the second page or --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Second -- next page.

Page 19663

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Next page.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Second paragraph on this page.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But there are two second paragraphs on this page.

 5     One on the top, there we have two, three, four five.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, second paragraph without number.  It says

 7     [B/C/S spoken], second paragraph without number.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  And it's page 19 from the document.  And here, on the

10     English version, I -- under conclusions I see it's marked that it's

11     page 23.  There are other conclusions as well.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think, as a matter of fact, that in the --

13     in the B/C/S version, the last item starting at the bottom of page 1

14     is -- starts with number 23.  And that seems to be the same as in the

15     English version, starting on --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on page 3 under number 23.  If we are looking at

18     the second paragraph, we have to distinguish between numbered

19     paragraphs and non-numbered paragraphs.  I think at the bottom of the

20     first page in B/C/S, we find number 1 --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which -- it deals with Muslims and Croats who

23     wish to leave.  And that seems to be in the B/C/S also.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this item number 1 has three paragraphs and,

25     if I'm not mistaken, you are referring to the third.

Page 19664

 1             MR. LUKIC:  To the second one.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To the second one.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Third one, you are right.  Third one.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Third one under item 1.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which then appears on e-court page 2 in B/C/S.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  But that paragraph, I don't see in English version.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There seems to be a -- perhaps a translation

 8     error, because in the original, I think, it has four --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Mm-hm.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- paragraphs.  Let's have a look.  In

11     English, [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It can be the second paragraph.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... one second.  After -- we

14     see that the numbering starts with 1 in the B/C/S version five lines on

15     the first page, and then another four and a half lines on the second

16     page.  And then we have one long and one short paragraph.  Whereas, it

17     seems that in the B/C/S version, we also have a longer and a short

18     paragraph.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you have to see whether a portion is

21     missing in translation.  If so, tell us what is missing and where it is

22     supposed to be.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly the paragraph that I read is missing.  The

24     whole paragraph is missing in English version.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  In the English version.  And could you then please

Page 19665

 1     read it again and could the translation, apart from perhaps removing

 2     other parts which are not relevant here, could the translation be

 3     revised.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  So I quote:

 5             [Interpretation] "At the same time, the Crisis Staff decided to

 6     decisively oppose any attempts to move out the population by force or

 7     under any kind of pressure and to prevent any such possible attempts by

 8     all available legal means."

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now your question.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So, Mr. Brown, obviously you could not have seen this B/C/S

12     portion.  But have you used this document at all in your analysis?

13        A.   I don't think I have, sir.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I tendered this document into

16     evidence as MFI, because obviously there's something wrong with the

17     translation but we shall see to that and inform the Chamber once it has

18     been translated.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 06604 receives number D423,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence -- is marked for

24     identification.  I make the same mistake for the second time today.  I

25     hope it will not be there for a third time.

Page 19666

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And now let us look at -- the Prosecution showed you a document

 3     during the examination-in-chief, which is now P2877.

 4             Do you remember this document?

 5        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

 6        Q.   We see that it's a document which is a military secret and not

 7     meant to be used by the media; correct?

 8        A.   Well, I don't think it says not to be used by the media, but it's

 9     a classified military document, yes.

10        Q.   Yes.  It reads here that "enclosed, we submit the Order" of the

11     commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, and, actually, we shall look at this

12     enclosed document.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would need ... I don't know,

14     page 2.  Let's look at page 2 of this document.

15        Q.   We can see here who were all those it was sent to.  Actually, we

16     see it was sent to all the subordinated units; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that would seem to be the -- the subordinate units of the

18     corps.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And the following page, please.

20             One more page forward, please.  We see that the document is dated

21     the 9th of June, 1992.  The document comes from the 1st Krajina Corps

22     Command.  We'll see that on page 14 in English and page 17 in B/C/S, in

23     the e-court, under (f).  We can here that before issuing specific tasks,

24     all soldiers have to be made familiar with the -- the duties that will

25     follow from the corps to a basic unit.

Page 19667

 1             And if we could please see the following page, page 15 in English

 2     and page 18 in B/C/S under number 11.  We can see that the corps

 3     requested that each soldier should be familiarised with this.  And I

 4     quote number 11:

 5             "I strictly prohibit any mistreatment of the unarmed civilian

 6     population.  Treat prisoners of war in accordance with the spirit of the

 7     Geneva Conventions."

 8             Signed by Commander Major-General Momir Talic.

 9        Q.   I suppose that you have come across this document during your

10     work as the Prosecutor showed it to you now, or was it the first time

11     that you saw this document during proofing?

12        A.   No, this is a document I know fairly well, sir.  It's referenced

13     in my -- in my report.  I'd seen it before.

14        Q.   Would you agree with me that this represents an effort on part of

15     1st Krajina Corps Command to familiarise all soldiers with the fact that

16     any mistreatment of the civilian population is prohibited?

17        A.   Well, he -- he is issuing an order.  He is making mention that

18     they have to -- they have to abide by these obligations.  So in the

19     respect it's an effort.  Whether it's the only effort or whether it's

20     enough is a different issue.  But, no, he -- he makes -- the document

21     says what it says.  He puts that reference in that they should abide by

22     the Geneva Conventions and not mistreat the civilians.  And there are

23     others that General Talic sent out, I know, and also referenced in the

24     report.

25        Q.   All right.  Let's see now whether this was implemented or not.

Page 19668

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If we could please look at 1D1451.

 2     This is also a document from the 1st Krajina Corps Command from 1993, so

 3     the war is already in full swing in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 4             And we would need page 2 of the English version in e-court; and,

 5     in the B/C/S version, it begins -- as we need item 3 in B/C/S, it begins

 6     at the bottom of this page, the part that's marked here and which reads:

 7             "The actions of responsible individuals have caused uneasiness

 8     among the Muslim population in the villages of Batkovac and Stari Majdan

 9     (Sanski Most municipality).  Representatives of the ICRC, headed by

10     Mr. Frank, wanted to visit the village of Batkovac but the military

11     officers in charge denied them access."

12             And we would need the following page in B/C/S now, please.

13             The continuation of this paragraph reads:

14             "The 1st Krajina Corps command intervened by sending a military

15     police platoon to protect the population from irresponsible individuals."

16        Q.   Have you come across this document while preparing your report?

17        A.   It's not a document I remember.  And it is also dated 1993,

18     March 1993.  So my report really focussed on 1992.  So I -- it's not a

19     document I remember.

20        Q.   Would you agree with me that this document demonstrates the

21     continuity of the position held by the 1st Krajina Corps even in 1993, to

22     protect the civilian population of non-Serb ethnicity in the territory of

23     the Autonomous Region of Krajina?  We will see more documents to that

24     effect.

25        A.   No, I don't think it does.  I wouldn't -- I wouldn't agree with

Page 19669

 1     that.

 2        Q.   According to you, what does this document show?

 3        A.   Well, it shows that there -- there is a still remaining small

 4     pocket in -- of Muslim -- a Muslim village in Sanski Most in which case

 5     there -- the ICRC wanted to visit and that there was some problem with

 6     the military there that the corps commander intervened to resolve.

 7             I mean, it's the first time I've seen the document.  I'd have to

 8     read it all.  But at face value that's what it is and that's what it

 9     seemed to be.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, where do you read that that matter,

11     that is, the access by the ICRC, was resolved?  I read that they sent a

12     military police platoon to protect the population from irresponsible

13     individuals.

14             I can't read anything about ICRC then having been given access.

15             THE WITNESS:  No, I can't, sir.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Because you -- your answer suggested that the

17     issue raised was taken care of, whereas I do not read that part.

18             THE WITNESS:  I agree, sir.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to tender

21     this document into evidence.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1451 receives number D424,

25     Your Honours.

Page 19670

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It's time -- time for our break.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, since we have an extended session, Mr. Lukic,

 5     I would like to go on for another five to seven minutes, then take the

 6     break, and have then the last session which takes a little bit over one

 7     hour as well.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 65 ter 03292.

 9     It's a Prosecution exhibit.

10        Q.   This document was issued by SRNA, the Serbian press agency, which

11     was authorised to publish the following appeal by Radovan Karadzic in

12     connection to the International Red Cross Committee plea.

13             It says under 1:

14             "We ask all the local authorities and the most prominent Serbian

15     individuals to ensure protection and care for all wounded and sick

16     individuals regardless of the side they belong to; to treat all prisoners

17     humanely; to spare the civilians of all attacks; to provide protection

18     and all the possible aid to refugees ..."

19             Did you have this document before you when you compiled your

20     report?

21        A.   No, I didn't.

22        Q.   When it comes to Mr. Karadzic's positions expressed here, would

23     they have changed anything, in your views?

24        A.   I don't --

25        Q.   Just yes or no, please.

Page 19671

 1        A.   No, I don't think it would necessarily -- what -- what it would

 2     do is put into context some of the other instructions that came out

 3     around this time.  I think there was decisions taken a couple of days

 4     after --

 5        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

 7     into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03292 receives number D425,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Most of these documents where the witness has no idea, Mr. Lukic,

13     there's no objection by the Prosecution, but, of course, it's not the

14     usual way of introducing documents through a witness.  But bar table

15     or -- that's not of primarily importance at this moment for this Chamber.

16             MR. LUKIC:  As you ruled previously, Your Honour, it is crucial

17     for this report to see what is used, what is not used.  And it is crucial

18     to see the documents that I [Overlapping speakers] ...

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

20             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... contradiction of the

21     report.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I do not know whether this contradicts

23     the report.  I'm hesitant to see it that way.  But, as I said before, bar

24     table or through the witness seems not to be the most important issue at

25     this moment, and in the absence of any objections the Chamber has now --

Page 19672

 1     have admitted it.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now I would like to

 4     call up another document, 1D1454.

 5        Q.   This is an announcement to the citizens of the Serbian Republic

 6     of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It was signed by the Presidency of the

 7     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  The date is 11 July 1992.

 8             After the session of the assembly which was discussed by you in

 9     this courtroom, the Presidency says in this announcement, and I quote:

10             "The Presidency reminds everybody that the Geneva Conventions

11     provide for the relocation of the population from war zones.  Likewise,

12     moving out can only be a voluntary act.  In keeping with that, it cannot

13     be either prevented or instigated.

14             "To all the citizens of the Serbian Republic of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina of Croat and Muslim ethnicities, they are

16     guaranteed all the rights provided for by a state with the rule of law.

17     The authorities of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will

18     not force anybody to stay in the area of combat activities because that

19     would mean that people will become hostages.  They will not forcibly move

20     them out because that would constitute ethnic cleansing.  All refugees

21     from the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina will

22     be allowed to return without suffering any consequences; criminals, and

23     not civilians, are subject to legal sanctions."

24             Did you review this document when preparing your analysis?  Did

25     you take it into account, if you did?

Page 19673

 1        A.   I have not seen this document before, sir.

 2        Q.   Obviously this is a document which is in the possession of the

 3     Prosecutor's office.  It has an ERN number.  I believe that the issue was

 4     also raised by His Honour Judge Orie.  Who was it who decided which

 5     documents you were allowed to use as opposed to the document which you

 6     were not supposed to use?  Who made a short list of the material for you

 7     to peruse?

 8        A.   The documents that I exploited were the archive of the

 9     1st Krajina Corps, predominantly that collection, and some other

10     documents that I obtained through searches that I did that reflected or

11     had relevance to the 1st Krajina Corps documents.

12        Q.   So not only did you not study the documentation produced by the

13     enemy side, you also did not study the Serbian documentation that went

14     beyond the scope of the material produced by the 1st Krajina Corps.

15             Would that, more or less, summarise what you have just told us?

16        A.   I did include some materials which were not solely in the

17     1st Krajina Corps archive.  But, as I said to you before, this document

18     and report has got limitations and it does not review every single

19     document.  It was not a report about all aspects of the political

20     situation in Bosnia and the RS territory, and there will be documents I

21     did not review.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

23             MR. LUKIC:  A few more question, two more questions.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19674

 1        Q.   Would you regard this document as important for your analysis, or

 2     would you consider it of no consequence at all?

 3        A.   No, I would -- I would certainly consider it and -- and look at

 4     it and -- and put it in its context in terms of time and other aspects

 5     that were going on in relation to, say, the Presidency decisions or

 6     operations that had already occurred prior to this situation -- that

 7     occurred prior to this and what happened after this, whether any of this

 8     actually was implemented.  So I would -- I would look at this document

 9     and I would put it in some -- some context.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender the document

11     into evidence.  And this, indeed, is the time for our next break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 1D1454 receives number D426,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D426 is admitted into evidence.

16             The witness may follow the usher.  We'll take a break.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at quarter to 2.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

22     into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber wondered whether you could not

23     have agreed with the Prosecution on the existence of these press

24     statements and then quote in one line to the witness and ask him whether

25     that would change his views on the matter.  I mean, unless there's any

Page 19675

 1     dispute about these press releases or statements being made.

 2             Mr. Traldi.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah, in these cases, there hasn't been,

 5     Mr. President.  Obviously I'm not sure what else Mr. Lukic would choose

 6     to use but we're always open to coming to such agreements with the

 7     Defence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then we couldn't speed up considerably.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at a new document,

11     1D1455.  This also goes against your claim that people kept on leaving

12     all the time and forever.  This is an instruction which was sent to all

13     presidents of municipalities.  It says in here -- unfortunately, I could

14     not read the B/C/S version.  I'm going to quote from the English version

15     because the B/C/S version seems to be rather illegible:

16             [In English] "The occurrence of abandoned flats is a war issue

17     and so are the refugees.  This means that both occurrences are

18     temporary."

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you come across this document in your work?

20        A.   No, I -- I didn't, sir.

21        Q.   Based on all the documents that were shown to you, would you

22     consider changing your positions stated in paragraphs 2.138 and 2.149?

23        A.   No -- no, I wouldn't, sir.  I -- going back to this particular

24     document, it is not clear whether the reference here is to do with

25     individuals who have fled or whether it's to do with Serb refugees who

Page 19676

 1     have come into RS territory and are taking -- are taking flats or

 2     accommodation.  So, no, I wouldn't change ...

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tendered the document

 5     into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1455 receives number D427,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D427 is admitted.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at a military

11     document, 65 ter 02649.  It's a Prosecution number.  It was issued by the

12     command of a group of brigades in Skender Vakuf.  It was issued on the

13     6th of July, 1992.

14        Q.   This was before the international journalists visited the area;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.  It's certainly before and Gutman and Penny Marshall and

17     those visits in late July.  I don't know whether other visits may have

18     occurred from other journalists in between, but certainly from those

19     journalists.

20        Q.   In this document we are looking at English 3 and page 7 in B/C/S.

21     There are a few empty pages in the B/C/S version of the document between

22     the typed up pages; hence, the discrepancy in pagination.

23             In the English version, I don't seem to be able to find the exact

24     line.  The line should start with the following word, "Use some of the

25     forces ..." and I'm reading --

Page 19677

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What paragraph?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What paragraph?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  5.2.  Number 5.2, paragraph 3, but it is hardly

 4     visible.  It's ... line [Overlapping speakers] ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In English, it says "use some of the forces ..."

 6             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

 7             [Interpretation] "Use some of the forces to close off the" --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "... some of the forces must be ready

10     to prevent interethnic conflicts in the territory of the Skender Vakuf

11     municipality and acts of genocide between the peoples and the Serbian

12     population."

13             And then in the English version of this document on pages 16 and

14     on page 13 in B/C/S under bullet point 16, we see references to

15     psychological preparations and raising morale.  Page 16 [In English] page

16     13 in B/C/S, please.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we don't have it on the screen.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Not yet.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There it is.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21             [Interpretation] The last paragraph on the English page.  It says

22     here:

23             "During combat operations, do all you can to suppress looting in

24     the villages."

25             We need the following page in the English version.

Page 19678

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's on the screen.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   It is in line 1 in the English version at the end of that line,

 4     where it says:

 5             "I most strictly forbid mistreatment of the civilian population

 6     and captured soldiers must be treated in accordance with the

 7     Geneva Conventions."

 8             Would you agree with me that this document is not in line with

 9     the conclusions you present under 2.138 and that the statement you

10     proffer there is incorrect; namely, when you say that the organs of the

11     1st Krajina Corps aimed at expelling population from the area.

12        A.   It's not what it says in 2.138.  It says, "Indicate an

13     articulation of the plan to remove down to the lowest levels."  This

14     document is what it says.  Colonel Peulic has put that in his

15     instructions, but I don't think it necessarily is really related to

16     2.138.

17        Q.   You didn't answer my question.  The document that we see on the

18     screen, is it contradictory to the findings in your report under 2.138,

19     where it says:  This seems to point to the plan of population

20     resettlement and handing that plan down to the lowest level in the

21     1st Krajina Corps.  Or do you perhaps think and suggest that this

22     document that is on the screen is exactly in line with your views?

23        A.   No.  This document on the screen is a different issue.  This is a

24     combat instruction that Colonel Peulic is passing down to the units of

25     his Operational Group.  And within that, he is tasking his brigades to

Page 19679

 1     take -- take control of territory, including, Kotor Varos, Skender Vakuf

 2     and other areas.  And with -- and with -- and within that --

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Just a second.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Microphone not activated]

 5             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, no.  I have no time for these long

 6     explanations.  I'm not interested.  I want to be told whether this is in

 7     agreement with --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  The witness may finish his answer.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Then I need the next week for him.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber will decide how much time

11     you'll get.  The witness may finish this answer.

12             Please proceed.

13             THE WITNESS:  To be brief, it's an instruction to take control of

14     the territory in his zone, and within that, yes, he does make mention

15     that civilians are not to be mistreated.  But it's not -- it doesn't make

16     reference of resettlement.  It's about combat operations his brigades are

17     going to undertake at this time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   So, according to you, the fact that mistreatment of the civilian

21     population is prohibited does not have an impact on the resettlement of

22     the self-same civilian population and that this is a plan of some kind.

23        A.   No.  I see there's different issues.  One is this is a

24     military --

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  You've told me "no."  Thank you.  We move

Page 19680

 1     on.

 2             In paragraph 2. --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Lukic please repeat the reference.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat the reference.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 2.141.  In English version, it's

 6     page 113, and in B/C/S, page 115.

 7        Q.   In this process of exchange, was there anything in the activities

 8     of the Croats and the Muslims that was unlawful?

 9        A.   Could I see the document, sir, on the screen?  Or ...

10        Q.   The paragraph of your report, 2.141.  You say from the writing of

11     the 30th Division it's obvious that the Muslims and the Croats who

12     requested leave to move were actually resettled and that the exchanges of

13     civilians were agreed between the Serbs and the non-Serbs.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not have the

15     original text.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Was there anything unlawful about the activities of non-Serbs in

18     these exchanges, so the non-Serbs who take part in negotiations with the

19     Serb side and exchange Serbs for non-Serbs?

20        A.   Well, I can't really say, sir, because I'm not sure of the

21     negotiations and agreements.  If your underlying question relates to

22     whether Serbs, say in Jajce, in relation here were under pressure to move

23     out or were moved out, it would not surprise me if that was not the case.

24     I can't say for sure because I don't know the details on the other side.

25     It's clear from this document there is this resettlement issue that

Page 19681

 1     ethnic groups are being moved in and out from Jajce.  Whether that's

 2     legal, illegal, whether it's pressure on both side, whether it's forced

 3     on both sides, it's not clear from the document.  I'm using the document

 4     to say there were examples of this type of movement.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now we'll focus on paragraph 2.152 of your report.

 6     In English version, it's page 116 and in B/C/S, page 119.

 7             You saw there that unlawfully property -- mainly immovable

 8     property was appropriated, and --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Lukic please repeat.  He is reading

10     very fast a text we do not have.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to repeat your reading

12     because the interpreters were not able to follow it at your speed of

13     speech.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   So you claim in this paragraph that in an organised manner the

16     ownership of immovable property was organised, mainly land and

17     apartments.  Do you know who were the owners of apartments in

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time?  And are you familiar with the

19     concept of tenants' rights?

20        A.   Property ownership wasn't really an area of my study, sir.  But I

21     am aware of, more generally I guess, the -- I suspect the issue of

22     tenants' rights and that individuals can be tenants in property that ...

23        Q.   Would you agree with me that someone who does not have property

24     cannot lose it?  And are you aware of the obligation to return apartments

25     always when someone is moving from one place to another in the

Page 19682

 1     Former Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, if someone moved from

 2     one place to another, he had to return the apartment to its owner,

 3     perhaps a company, or a municipality, or some other organisation?

 4        A.   As I say, property ownership is not really an area of my

 5     expertise.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask a question, were you aware,

 7     sir, Mr. Brown, that -- which ethnicity had occupied, not owned, occupied

 8     these apartments that Mr. Lukic is talking about?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Sir, it would seem from the document these are

10     non-Serbs who are -- who are leaving this -- this accommodation.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then occupation is a right, isn't it?

12             THE WITNESS:  I would imagine.  Well, yes, occupation is a right.

13     You don't -- even in my own country if you don't own your property but

14     are a tenant in it there are strict legal rights that you have.  You

15     cannot be turfed out your house on an afternoon and told you are no

16     longer welcome there.  There are legal rights, legal processes by which

17     if someone wants to reclaim that property or move you from it, that they

18     can do so but you have certain rights to remain there until that is

19     resolved.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And since I'm going to move

23     to another document, I would ask for this one to be admitted,

24     65 ter 2649.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 19683

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02649 receives number D428,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D428 is admitted into evidence.

 4             Before we move to another area, Mr. Lukic -- and, Witness, can I

 5     ask you, in paragraph 2.152 did you express yourself on the details of

 6     what could be legally done, or are you first distinguishing between

 7     organised, authorised, whatever you name it, transfer of occupancy other

 8     than the non-organised of the -- what you call "illegal," in brackets,

 9     and the involvement of the 1st Krajina Corps in those movements?

10             Is that what you were talking about or were you giving in

11     judgement on what was legal or illegal in respect of those abandoned

12     apartments?

13             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I'm not making a call on the property and

14     legal issues, per se.  What I wanted to do was when I reviewed certain

15     documents, it seemed to be that on the one hand there were references by

16     General Talic that he was unhappy with -- individuals occupying

17     territory -- property of their own back.  And that -- that he didn't

18     approve of that but that he was approving of the official, i.e.,

19     Bosnian Serb, policy, that these apartments or properties should be put

20     at the control of the RS authorities and dealt with -- and handed out in

21     that manner.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   In footnote 561, you refer to a document in order to support this

Page 19684

 1     claim of yours that the army probably didn't criticise this officially

 2     agreement distribution of property because it profited from it because

 3     you say that soldiers moved into those apartments.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I just ask that if he's -- that if Mr. Lukic is

 6     quoting or purporting to quote the proposition for which the witness has

 7     cited the document, he be reasonably precise about it.  I don't see, for

 8     instance, in that paragraph a refreshes to the army criticising this

 9     policy or not.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Neither do I.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After 559, the footnote number in

12     paragraph 2.152, you say that:

13             "The army probably did not criticise such officially authorised

14     seizing and distribution of property because it profited from it."

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

16     original text.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you originally referred us to

18     footnote 561.  That's what we are reading.

19             MR. LUKIC:  I think that we can look into the same document in

20     relation of this claim.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

22             MR. LUKIC:  So --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

24             MR. LUKIC:  The document from that [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Don't confuse us, Mr. Lukic.  If you look at

Page 19685

 1     paragraph 78, line 2, you say in footnote 561 you refer to, so we are

 2     looking at footnote 561.  Now when you change and say after 559, the

 3     footnote number, 55 -- after 559 is 560.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  There is a text after 559.  That's what I was -- I

 5     apologise.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.  That's much better.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Now we need document 65 ter, Prosecution number,

 9     02968.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Here, we see before us a report about abandoned

11     apartments.  Do you know -- or, rather, do you accept - I will tell you -

12     that the underlined words are actually the names of the apartment owners

13     or the companies, the municipality, the medical centre, the secretariat

14     of the interior --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which underlined word, Mr. Lukic?  I see no

16     underlined word in the English.

17             MR. LUKIC:  For example, on the first page you have "DP

18     Proleter."  It means "state company, Proleter."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The question to the witness is whether the

20     witness agrees that these headings refer to social institutions or

21     companies which owned the apartments referred to.

22             Is that the question?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know whether these are names of

25     companies or --

Page 19686

 1             THE WITNESS:  I don't know, sir.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you recognise Serbian names on these lists?  That is to say,

 5     are there any apartments here that were abandoned by Serbs?

 6        A.   I -- I couldn't necessarily tell you and I wouldn't really want

 7     to -- to delve into -- I can recognise some names as being, say, Muslim.

 8     I -- I can't necessarily tell you whether other names are -- are Serb or

 9     not.  It's not really my expertise.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you tell us in a little bit more

11     about the document.  There's no time on it, who drafted it, where does it

12     come from?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe the witness can tell us more.  I cannot.  It's

14     footnoted in his report.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, do you have any idea?

16             Where is it footnoted, Mr. --

17             THE WITNESS:  It's in 561, sir.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  561.

19             THE WITNESS:  I believe it was a -- Kotor Varos War Presidency,

20     part of that collection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Obviously I haven't had time to do a comprehensive

23     review of our records but what the witness has said is consistent with

24     the information that I'm finding [overlapping speakers]...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is there any time-frame to be given to it?

Page 19687

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Our records reflect that it's part of a collection

 2     of files and records from 1992.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Could we -- is this -- the names appearing on this list, are

 5     those the names of person who now occupy those apartments, or those who

 6     had abandoned them, if you know?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Sir, I believe the names on the left-hand side were

 8     the former owners, and the -- who had abandoned the property or left.

 9     And the names down the right-hand side are individuals who've taken over

10     those properties.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I now see it.  So that currently inhabited by gives

12     the new occupant.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   You say that you can recognise some names.  Would you agree that

17     names under numbers 2, 3, 12, 16, 18, and 21 only in this first group of

18     apartments noted as property of the socially owned enterprise Proleter

19     are names of Serbs whose apartments were included on this list?

20        A.   I would have to defer to you, sir, or others.  It's not really

21     something I would feel comfortable in saying.  But I would defer to you

22     that maybe there are Serb names here too.

23        Q.   So would you agree with me that they were recorded -- all the

24     flats that had been abandoned were recorded and managed by their owners,

25     i.e., the companies who owned them?

Page 19688

 1        A.   I -- I really am not sure that I can answer that, sir.  As I say,

 2     I'm not an expert on this issue of property ownership.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Since the footnote, 561, refers especially to

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic, I would like to see that name in the

 5     document.  Perhaps we can go to the next page in English.  It's a

 6     reference only to this person, Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic.  Can we go

 7     to the next page.  I don't see it here.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  [Microphone not activated] I believe it will be

 9     page 3 in English, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We didn't hear you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Microphone.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.  I believe it will be page 3 in English,

13     Your Honour.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go to page 3.

15             Now it's on the screen now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Kotor Varos, under number 9, I take it --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- would bring us to ...

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to tender this

20     document into evidence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02968 receives number D429,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

25             One question, Mr. Lukic.  You suggested that the property was

Page 19689

 1     still administered by the owners.  First of all, I see now and then

 2     illegally, which apparently means that the owner is not administering.

 3     But, second, I don't see that it is administered by the owners.  I see,

 4     for example, for Novakovic that he inhabits the apartment by the order of

 5     the War Presidency.  Now you could consider municipal assembly perhaps in

 6     the same area, but where does it say that apart from being the owner of

 7     the apartment building or apartment block that they play a role in --

 8     in -- in managing them?  I do not see it yet, but if you would assist me.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  There are many ways of managing in socialist times

10     with a building like [Overlapping speakers] ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine but [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously -- obviously from this document I can

13     accept that it's done by War Presidency who distributed the apartments.

14     I don't have [Overlapping speakers] ... there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't know.  You

16     suggested that the owners still managed their property.  Now in your

17     explanation, you are not --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Property has to be returned to the owner and they

19     manage.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The simple answer, therefore, is that it

21     gives information who inhabits at this moment or who

22     [Overlapping speakers] ...

23             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... or who left the apartment

24     because there is many empty --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 19690

 1             MR. LUKIC:  -- still empty.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But who manages it?  The document does not provide

 3     any information for that.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  You are right.  I cannot see that from the document.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] And now let's look at

 7     65 ter 03084, another Prosecutor's document.  The document will be

 8     related to Kljuc municipality.

 9        Q.   It says in the document that the War Presidency adopts the

10     following decision on criteria required in order for people to move out

11     of Kljuc municipality.  The document was issued on the

12     30th of July, 1992, or, rather, it refers to that date.

13             In this decision, under 2, you can see how people can move out of

14     Kljuc municipality forever, permanently.  Article 2:

15             "Persons who have exchanged their real estate (privately-owned

16     houses, land and flats) with other individuals from the area to which

17     they are moving shall be permitted to leave the municipality

18     permanently."

19             Did you know that that was a condition which people had to meet

20     if they wanted to move out permanently?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd just object to the characterisation

22     of the condition.  I think there's an alternative condition two lines

23     below, and so I think the document is being slightly misstated.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's ask the witness to read Article 2, if he's

25     able to do.  And then put any question to the witness, Mr. Lukic.

Page 19691

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   That would have been my next question.  However, we can look at

 3     the document together and we can combine the two questions.  Instead of

 4     exchanging one's property, people could actually leave it to Kljuc

 5     municipality.

 6        A.   Well, the document is what it is.  It does have those two --

 7     those two options.  In essence, if you don't meet the time deadline, the

 8     municipality will do it for you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, isn't the -- one of the real issues in

10     Article 2, the option which does not appear, that is, leave as you wish

11     and come back and enjoy your property again, which you own; but that

12     it's -- if you want to leave for a shorter or a longer period of time,

13     you can't keep the ownership of your property.

14             Is -- isn't that the -- one of the issue that appears rather than

15     to say, Well, there are two different options of getting rid of your

16     property but keeping your property.  Is that the really issue?  And

17     perhaps the witness could comment on it, or if you have any further

18     questions on what seems to me to be similarly an issue with Article 2.

19             Could you comment on it.

20             THE WITNESS:  Sir, sometimes it's what's not in the documents

21     that are as powerful as what's in it, and this is a clear example.  You

22     know, if -- if this was an issue of, We have a conflict in Kljuc which

23     some of you may feel frightened enough to leave, but don't worry your

24     property will be okay to come back to, there should be an echo of that,

25     that you are within your rights to come back when you feel safe to do so.

Page 19692

 1     But here it seems to be that if you leave it for a period of time that

 2     Kljuc is going to decide what is going to happen to your property.

 3             There is also the issue at this time that a large number of

 4     people in Kljuc were already in detention camps and whether they had any

 5     ability or chance or opportunity to deal with property matters whilst

 6     they were being held in these detention camps, I would very much doubt.

 7     So there is more to it than just this seeming anodyne or bureaucratic

 8     issue of property passage.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you able to comment on the last paragraph of

11     Article 2?

12             THE WITNESS:  It's -- it's -- it's a -- I -- it -- for what

13     reason are you not allowed to sell your property other than -- I think

14     that they -- it's -- it's an odd comment to put in.  People are -- if

15     you -- I mean, paragraph -- Article 2 is talking about privately-owned

16     property.  It's yours.  You can presumably sell it to whoever you want.

17     But here there is a -- there is -- they are citizens that right.  What

18     they're allowing is this issue of exchange under strict conditions and it

19     strikes me that this again cuts to this issue of -- you know, these

20     people are going to be moving out.  We will -- when you -- when you read

21     some of the delegates at the 16th Assembly Session who are talking about

22     this very issue of, What are we going to do with Serbs who are in areas

23     who we don't control?  Well, we need to have this exchange.  We need to

24     move this -- these -- these types of minutiae seem to echo that

25     ultimately these individuals weren't going to come back, no matter what

Page 19693

 1     the public facade was.  And I actually think the practical reality is

 2     that these people didn't come back and certainly the ones in the camp

 3     never had any chance to come back at all.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you know that this ban on the sale of property that you find

 8     confusing was actually introduced in order to prevent any possible

 9     abuses.  For example, a person might be forced at gunpoint to sell their

10     property and that would be the purpose of this decision, which I suggest

11     to you.  Would you accept that?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, I think then we must make a distinction

13     because you're making an assumption which doesn't appear from the

14     document.  And the document then should prohibit forced sales, not just

15     sales.

16             You can laugh, but if it's at gunpoint it's a forced sale.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Then you have to prove because before this moment,

18     Your Honour, many forgeries, actually forced transfers were made and then

19     citizens would have to prove that it was forced or not forced sale.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are testifying now.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I am because I took part in many returns of these

22     flats, so I know it perfectly well.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe let's wait for you to call a witness to say

24     so.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

Page 19694

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But the point is, faced with this document,

 2     there's no reference to forced sale or voluntarily sale.  It just says

 3     sale.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Any sale.  Any sale.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Any sale, so therefore -- therefore, it becomes

 6     arbitrary to deny a person the right to sell voluntarily.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Trust me, it's in the best interests of

 8     population [Overlapping speakers] ...

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]... I don't know.  We'll

10     find out when you call your witness.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we will.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you put your next question to the witness.

13     But I would have one observation, Mr. Lukic.  If now or at a later stage

14     you would be able to explain to me how forfeiture of your property after

15     you've left for, what was it, three months would protect you against

16     forced sale, then I would very much appreciate that.

17             But, perhaps you put your next question to the witness.

18             MR. LUKIC:  We will definitely have somebody to testify on this

19     issue.

20             Now, I want one document in the e-court, 1D1459.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you tendering the last document you've just

22     discussed at length?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 03084 receives number D430,

Page 19695

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D430 is admitted.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Next document there is no English translation,

 6     Mr. --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  There is no B/C/S.  This is English.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, this is English.  Let's have a look.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know how but we don't have B/C/S --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  -- original.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that we keep the --

13             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I don't.  I wonder if Mr. Lukic has any more

15     information about this document.  Based on the top left-hand corner it

16     seems like this can't possibly be the original version.

17             MR. LUKIC:  This is not original obviously.  I don't know how we

18     have only English version.  But we have to work with what we have.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So we have in the -- we have an English text --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- before us at this moment.

22             MR. LUKIC:  There must be B/C/S version since -- original must be

23     in B/C/S.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- we'll see.  Please try to find out so that we

25     know it as well.

Page 19696

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I will propose this document to be MFI'd and then

 2     we'll have time to investigate.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you want to put questions to the

 4     witness --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- about it.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 8        Q.   This is document from September 9, 1992.  It says "Declaration."

 9     And we need paragraph under number 3.  Yes.  That says:

10             "We are inviting all citizens who left their homes due to war

11     operations, feeling of personal insecurity and jeopardised property, to

12     return to the territory of the Serbian Republic after a durable peace is

13     established.  All citizens of other nationalities will be recognised, all

14     their rights, according to the constitution and law."

15             [Interpretation] Mr. Brown, would you think that inviting people

16     to -- return, immediately even during war operations, would be sincere or

17     insincere?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.  Again, Your Honour, I don't think we can

20     tell on the basis of the document if this invitation was actually

21     extended.  I note the date doesn't appear to be a date on which there was

22     a -- a session of the RS Assembly.  It seems something similar may have

23     been done at the next session.  But there would be a record of that, and

24     this clearly isn't that record.  At best, it may be a draft.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  One of the problems is that we -- I can't see the

Page 19697

 1     whole of the document because I can't manipulate it as I usually do on my

 2     right screen.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  As we understood, Your Honour, this is not record

 4     from the sitting.  This is declaration.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Declaration issued by?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  By Assembly of Serbian Republic.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the last page of the document, please.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's -- it's -- perhaps if we would have --

10     tomorrow a printed copy of this and then you can put whatever questions

11     you'd like to the witness but then we have at least a better view on it.

12             Could it be MFI'd for the time being so that we know what we're

13     working with.  Madam Registrar, the number under which --

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1459 receives number D431,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D431 is marked for identification.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Brown, did you yourself come across this document while you

19     were compiling your report or thereafter?

20        A.   No, sir, this is the first time I've seen it.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's see just one more document.

22     06442, this is a Prosecutor's 65 ter number.

23        Q.   The document refers to Sanski Most.  We can see how the

24     representatives of the local authorities saw the situation there and what

25     their way of thinking was.

Page 19698

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have two different documents on the screen,

 2     both in English.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We shouldn't have.  I have one.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I have on the left, session number 11,

 5     14th of August, Executive Committee Municipality, Sanski Most.  And to

 6     the right we have the last page of a document which is signed by

 7     Mladen Lukic.  And it is dated the 14th of August.  We have now the

 8     first -- let me see.  I think now we are there.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Next -- next page.  Yeah.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that uploading has not been very accurate.

13     Everything can be found if you know where it is.

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's mixed up.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you have any questions to put to the

16     witness about the document --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The English version is gone.

18             MR. LUKIC:  This document in English version.  [Microphone not

19     activated] we need page 5 in B/C/S.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a two-page English document.  There is an

21     11-page --

22             MR. LUKIC:  B/C/S document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

24             MR. TRALDI:  That's what we find in the system.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'll just read one paragraph.

Page 19699

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  On -- on original it gives the -- yes, please read

 2     that paragraph.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Just one paragraph.  It is 1, 2, 3, 4, fourth

 4     paragraph on this page.  It says, and I quote:

 5             [Interpretation] "M. Lukic, according to the international law,

 6     nobody can be prevented from moving out.  Whoever wants to move out

 7     should be allowed to do so.  And, likewise, whoever wants to stay should

 8     be allowed to do that as well."

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I can't see it in the English.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest the following:  Since we really have to

11     stop today in time, Mr. Lukic, reorganise, together with the Prosecution

12     perhaps, this exhibit so that we have the right thing on our screens, and

13     let's continue with it tomorrow.

14             Mr. Brown, I would like to instruct you again not to speak with

15     anyone about your -- about your testimony, whether given already or still

16     to be given, and we'll like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.30.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you for your time, sir.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic -- one second, please.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber still urges you to finish the

22     cross-examination tomorrow, Mr. Lukic.

23             We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the

24     22nd of November, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, III.

25                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.48 p.m.,

Page 19700

 1                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of

 2                           November, 2013, at 9.30 a.m.