Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21120

 1                           Tuesday, 20 May 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There are no preliminaries reported to the Chamber, which means

12     that we could start hearing the evidence of the next witness.

13             And the next witness to be called, Mr. Lukic, would be?

14             MR. LUKIC:  The next witness, Your Honours -- good morning, first

15     of all, would be Mr. Trapara, Predrag.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

17     courtroom.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Trapara.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  From your answer, I take it you can understand me.

22     Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn

23     declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to

24     make that solemn declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 21121

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  PREDRAG TRAPARA

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Trapara.

 5             Mr. Trapara, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic is

 6     counsel for Mr. Mladic and you'll find him to your right.

 7             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed -- yes, to your left, to my right.  I

 8     apologise.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Trapara.

12        A.   Good morning, Mr. Branko.

13        Q.   Can you please tell us your name for the transcript, please.

14        A.   My name is Predrag Trapara.

15        Q.   Did you provide a statement for General Mladic's Defence?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D1613 in e-court,

18     please.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the ID number again, Mr. Lukic?

20             MR. LUKIC:  1D1613.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Is this your signature on the first page, sir?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page of the

24     document, please, in e-court.

25        Q.   And is this your signature on the last page, please, sir?

Page 21122

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 5, please.

 3     In both versions we need to look at paragraph 24.

 4        Q.   Do you remember warning me that this paragraph is incorrect and

 5     that corrections need to be made?

 6        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

 7        Q.   I'm now going to read how the paragraph should go and then you

 8     can tell me if that version is correct.  I'm going to be reading in

 9     English so that it can be recorded properly in the transcript and you can

10     listen to the B/C/S interpretation.

11             [In English] Paragraph 24, I quote:

12             "The gas supply originated in Zvornik.  The town of Sarajevo had

13     gas.  I know this because we had gas at the front lines which our

14     soldiers used for heating.  The water-supply to the town was not cut.  It

15     was not at all possible for Dobrinja 2 and 3 not to have any water

16     because Dobrinja 1 and 4 which were under our control received

17     water-supply through Dobrinja 2 and 3.  The central reservoir supplying

18     all the neighbourhoods in Sarajevo was located on Mojmilo hill, which was

19     in Muslim hands."

20             [Interpretation] Does what I have just read accord with how it

21     really was?

22        A.   Yes, it does.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The corrected version of the statement, does that now

24     reflect accurately your testimony?

25        A.   Yes, it does.

Page 21123

 1        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

 2     answer in the same way as is recorded in the statement?

 3        A.   Yes, I would.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I want to offer this statement 1D1613

 5     into evidence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1613 receives number D459,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D459 is admitted into evidence.

10             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             With your leave, I would read a short statement of this witness

13     for the public.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Short?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Short.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It was longer yesterday, but after the warning you

18     gave to my colleague Stojanovic, I shortened it down.

19             Mr. Shin wants --

20             MR. SHIN:  Yeah, I'm sorry.  Just a very minor point.  I'm sorry

21     to interrupt, but I believe my colleague said it's a short statement,

22     it's a summary, and perhaps that difference should be clearer.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is a short summary of the statement.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Short summary.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  I take it the witness has been

Page 21124

 1     explained the purpose of this so that the audience would know what your

 2     testimony is about.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             [Interpretation] Predrag Trapara lived in Lukavica, a Sarajevo

 6     neighbourhood.  He was the commander of the 5th Company of the 2nd

 7     Infantry Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, komandir.

 8     Quite some time before the war began in Bosnia and Herzegovina in

 9     September 1991, he saw Juka Prazina with members of his paramilitary

10     group openly carrying weapons at Mojmilo Brdo hill.

11             During the war his company was in contact with the 2nd Battalion

12     of the 101st Mountain Brigade of the B&H army 1st Corps.  At that time he

13     knew that the opposing forces used 82-millimetre mortars as well as

14     infantry weapons.  These mortars were located in the civilian area of

15     Sarajevo that was called Aneks.  Throughout the war in the Sarajevo

16     front, in the Sarajevo theatre, his unit carried out exclusively

17     defensive actions.  The line of separation between the warring parties

18     was set in such a way that Serbs and Muslims came out in front of their

19     own houses and dug themselves in.

20             During the whole war, his company never carried out any

21     offensives against Muslim positions for the purpose of capturing

22     territory.  During the entire war, the lines stayed exactly the way they

23     were set at the beginning of the conflict.  The bulk of the Muslim forces

24     at that area was constituted by a large number of snipers.  Serb

25     positions and civilians were exposed to sniper fire practically every

Page 21125

 1     day.

 2             Predrag Trapara and his unit had information that the Muslim side

 3     misused civilian buildings for military purposes, namely, that they were

 4     firing from there at Serb positions or placed their staffs and commands

 5     there.  The witness stated that his unit never opened fire in the depth

 6     of enemy territory but only at trenches and buildings where enemy

 7     soldiers were located.  He's sure that at that time there were no

 8     civilians living in the buildings from which the B&H army was firing

 9     from.  He never issued an order nor received an order to terrorise

10     civilians in the city of Sarajevo or to inflict civilian casualties on

11     the enemy.  Quite the contrary, the superior command always sent orders

12     to them that they should fire exclusively at enemy military targets.

13             Mr. Trapara also stated that there were many civilian casualties

14     on the Serbian side as a result of fire from B&H army members and that in

15     the deployment area of his unit a lot of damage was inflicted on civilian

16     facilities by that same fire.  In February 1994, his mother was wounded

17     in front of their house.  She was wounded by rifle fire and both her

18     bones below the knee were broken and to this day she has to use crutches.

19             His father was also wounded by B&H army shelling as a result of

20     which he lost his leg and his spleen was destroyed -- his liver was

21     destroyed.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And soon he died because of the

24     severity of his injuries.  Members of his unit were locals, inhabitants

25     of that neighbourhood.  Convoys carrying humanitarian aid would pass

Page 21126

 1     through the territory where his unit was deployed and not a single one

 2     was ever prevented from passing through.  There were instances of misuse

 3     of humanitarian aid by international forces.  He recalls that on one

 4     occasion the military police discovered seven rifles in a humanitarian

 5     aid shipment intended for the Muslim part of town.  Muslim units that

 6     were facing his unit frequently violated cease-fires.  During each

 7     cease-fire, Muslim forces would intensify their works on digging

 8     trenches, and in that way they would be coming ever closer to Serb

 9     positions.  Usually these works were carried out by Serbian civilians who

10     were forced to do so.  These were Serbian civilians who had remained in

11     the Muslim part of the city.

12             Having read the summary of the witness's statement, I would like

13     to ask Mr. Trapara a few questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, perhaps for the next witness -- it was

15     shorter.  It still is not short.  I mean, the 65 ter summary more or less

16     would do.  It's still two pages or even a little bit more on the

17     transcript, too many details.  So as you could keep that in mind for the

18     next witness.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Trapara, were your troops surrounded by Muslim forces in

22     Sarajevo?

23        A.   Well, let me tell you one thing.  Part of my unit was facing

24     Sarajevo and behind our backs in the sector from Vojkovici, Krupac,

25     behind Kasindol towards Kijevo, that means Karaula [phoen], Klanac, and

Page 21127

 1     Kijevo, that whole area was held by Muslim forces so there were two

 2     rings.  We had one defence line ahead of us and another defence line

 3     behind our backs and that was the situation throughout Sarajevo.

 4        Q.   Now briefly about humanitarian aid, 1D2025, please, in e-court.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is it correct that not all the headings

 6     in those documents are -- appear in the English translation?  For

 7     example, if I look at the English, it starts what seems to be the seventh

 8     line in the B/C/S.  The whole heading is missing.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Heading of what, Your Honour?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the original.  Of course I can read that it's

11     Republika Srpska and then the Presidency or cabinet of the president.

12     And you see, I slowly get more familiar with even the Cyrillic B/C/S

13     text.  And then we have the date, the 7th of May, and we have a number

14     and we have -- well, all kind of things which precede the text of the --

15             MR. LUKIC:  You can in English here that -- now I can see that

16     the translation is not complete.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you please take care that it will be

18     completed and then uploaded again.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And I do understand that the heading only says that

21     it's the Republika Srpska cabinet of the president --

22             MR. LUKIC:  President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- strictly confidential, then a number, then Pale,

24     a date, and then that it is addressed to the headquarters of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska.  Is that more or less what it says?

Page 21128

 1             MR. LUKIC:  That's exactly what it says.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, my staff is perfect in these kind of things.

 3             Mr. Shin.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Mr. President.  We may have found another version

 5     of this.  I'll leave it to my colleague to -- Mr. Lukic to decide if

 6     that's correct, but this may assist, that would be 65 ter 14545, but

 7     again I'll leave it to him to see whether this is indeed the document he

 8     is referring to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the case, replacement of the translation

10     would be easier.  You may proceed for the time being on the basis of this

11     document, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             Thank you to my colleague Shin.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Trapara, here we have the document before

15     us.  Would you please look at it, specifically item 3 where the

16     president, Radovan Karadzic, decided to enable undisturbed delivery of

17     humanitarian aid to the areas held by the other side and says:

18             "Effect the delivery of humanitarian aid as efficiently as

19     possible with as little delay as possible and in a fair manner."

20             You have spoken about this in your statement.  I would only like

21     to ask you:  Was that the policy of both the civilian and the military

22     authorities?  What kind of orders did you receive in this connection, to

23     let the convoys pass or not?

24        A.   We received orders to let the convoys through, and that we did.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to tender this

Page 21129

 1     document to be MFI'd until we change the English translation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2025 receives number D460,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D460 is marked for identification.

 6             Mr. Lukic, would you also pay specific attention to the

 7     translation of the fourth item in this decision which ends by:

 8             " ... and concrete actions establish by negotiations."

 9             I could imagine that it should read:  "Established by

10     negotiations," so at least it's unclear at this moment what it exactly

11     means.

12             Please proceed.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put a question to the witness in relation

14     to this document?

15             Sir, if you look at item 1 of the decision in front of you, I

16     read there and I quote:

17             "Stop immediately with all military offensive activities ..."

18             How do I have to understand this?  Which kind of military

19     offensive activities is this referring to?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Military offensive activities,

21     maybe this pertains to another area of the theatre of war.  The

22     Main Staff is mentioned.  Where I was on my defence line there was a kind

23     of truce.  Maybe this passage pertains to a broader area of our military

24     zone.  While there were any combat activities, I didn't know or receive a

25     document of this kind.  My unit never had a document of this kind.  I

Page 21130

 1     believe this document was sent to units at higher levels, such as brigade

 2     and corps.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But to stop offensive activities means that there

 4     have been, in fact, offensive activities.  When I read your statement, I

 5     form the impression that there were no offensive activities by the VRS

 6     with respect to Sarajevo.  This strikes me.  Can you comment on that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try.  I do not contest that

 8     there were offensive activities but in some other sector, in some other

 9     part of the BH.  In the sector that I controlled with my unit, there were

10     no offensive activities.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps this is an order -- I'm

13     sorry.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, please continue your sentence you have just

15     started.  Perhaps this is an order ...  What kind of an order is it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps this was an order for the

17     entire Main Staff, maybe in some area there were offensive activities at

18     this moment and this order says they should be stopped, whereas at the

19     confrontation line held by my unit there were none, at least if we look

20     at this date here.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one additional question as well.  Do I

23     understand from your answers that you have no knowledge of this order and

24     the details of its content such as what kind of negotiations may have

25     taken place?  You see it for the first time, is that -- or have you seen

Page 21131

 1     it before, in what context?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have seen this order before, but

 3     I didn't see it at the time when it was written.  And my unit was not at

 4     such a level that I would have been able to know what kind of

 5     negotiations were involved.  I simply received orders from my own

 6     superior command, which was the battalion command, to let the convoys

 7     with humanitarian aid pass unhindered.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You've told us that.  Who has shown you this

 9     document for the first time, when you saw it for the first time?  Who

10     gave it to you to read?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first saw this document in 2012.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And given to you by whom?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the Defence team of

14     Mr. Karadzic.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a further question arising from your

18     answer.  You say you first saw this document in 2012.  Do I have to

19     understand that you had no knowledge of these orders during the war?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you couldn't have acted according to this

22     order because you didn't have this order?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my statement it is written --

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I stop you there.  Yes or no, you couldn't

25     have acted according to this order because you didn't have this order

Page 21132

 1     during the war, yes or no?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I acted upon the order to let the

 3     convoys through.  I didn't know about this specific order.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             You may proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   The orders that you received from your superior command, were

 8     they consistent with this decision of President Karadzic?

 9        A.   I believe so.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we would need 65 ter 15340.

12        Q.   We see the document from the Main Staff of the Army of

13     Republika Srpska dated 11 March 1995.  It reports about the situation on

14     the front, and now we need to see the second page in B/C/S and the second

15     page in English.  Let's focus on item 3.  As you see, it says:

16             "In the zone of the 1st Smbr, Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, the

17     enemy fired from infantry weapons and sniper rifles and 60- and

18     82-millimetre mortars.  At about 1600 hours, the enemy fired snipers and

19     killed two girls Natasa" and the name is probably Ucur "born in 1986 and

20     Milica Lalovic born in 1984..."

21             Is this last name correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   At that time did you know about this incident?

24        A.   Yes, I did.  An hour after it happened I found out -- it's not

25     the area of responsibility of my company but it's the area of

Page 21133

 1     responsibility of my battalion.  So within one hour of the incident I

 2     found out by telephone that two girls were killed in Grbavica and we

 3     raised our level of combat-readiness immediately.  So yes, I was aware of

 4     it very quickly after it happened.

 5        Q.   What did you mean by raising your combat-readiness?

 6        A.   That means reinforcing the front line and intensifying

 7     observation of the enemy because we were anticipating more enemy

 8     activity.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I should like to tender this

11     document.

12             MR. SHIN:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 15340 receives number D461,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we perhaps move to the last page with the

18     signature.  I see it's signed by Manojlo Milovanovic.  Thank you.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Are you finished, Your Honour?  Thank you.

20             [Interpretation] I would now like to see P2050 briefly in

21     e-court.  [In English] It's document in English.  I don't think there is

22     translation so we can show it on the whole screen, and we need -- it's a

23     code cable from Yasushi Akashi, UNPROFOR, from 14th of March 1995.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, I see a translation into B/C/S.  It's

25     on the screen.

Page 21134

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Is it there?  I couldn't find.  [Interpretation] We

 2     need item 3, in English it's on page 2, and in B/C/S it's straddling

 3     pages 1 and 2, I think.  No, in B/C/S it's also on page 2.

 4        Q.   I'd like to ask you this:  At this time, on the 14th March 1995,

 5     were Muslim forces launching any offensives in Sarajevo?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   At the time were there any Muslim forces on Mount Igman and on

 8     Mount Bjelasnica?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Were there any Muslim forces in the demilitarised zone at the

11     time?

12        A.   Yes, that was the greatest problem.  Yes.  So in 1993 --

13        Q.   We're talking about 1995.

14        A.   Yes.  Between our lines and the Muslim forces there was UNPROFOR,

15     and the Muslim forces used that time of this so-called cease-fire and

16     they entered our territory unhindered by UNPROFOR in any way and they

17     took tens of square kilometres of this demilitarised zone totally

18     unhindered by UNPROFOR.

19        Q.   Were there any casualties on the Serb side?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   What do you know about that?

22        A.   Well, we know because part of my unit sent help to that area;

23     that is to say, the area of Igman.

24        Q.   Because the Muslim forces passed through the demilitarised zone,

25     were there any casualties on the Serb side?

Page 21135

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you remember how heavy the losses were?

 3        A.   Well, I cannot say about the entire front line, the entire

 4     separation line.  I can tell you about my battalion.  Three soldiers were

 5     killed at the time, that is -- well, actually it was combat and it was

 6     not combat.  The Muslim soldiers went through that area and they violated

 7     what we had observed, and that is how these unfortunate things happened

 8     to our people.

 9        Q.   Did you notice any arming of the Muslim troops during the war?

10        A.   Well, yes, I did.  Every day during the war they were more and

11     more armed.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to briefly show another

14     document, 65 ter 08371.  We need page 2 in B/C/S, page 3 in English.  We

15     need (c), 2(c), that's towards the end of the page in English and toward

16     the end of the page in B/C/S.

17        Q.   This is what is stated here:

18             "The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps," so it's the situation in that

19     corps that is being dealt with.  "In the northern part of the Sarajevo

20     front, the enemy began with organised artillery and infantry operations

21     on the area of the Nisici plateau in the early morning hours, focusing on

22     the following directions:  Breza-Cemera-Nisici and Olovo-Nisici ..."

23             Do you have any personal knowledge about these attacks of the

24     Muslim forces against the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska?

25        A.   I do.

Page 21136

 1        Q.   So it's the 11th of April, 1994, that's the time-frame.

 2        A.   At the time in 1994 in the area of Dernek, Korita, Veliki Jasen,

 3     Mali Jasen, Polom, Mosevacko Brdo, Stomorina, Vasevici, Nisici plateau,

 4     Hajde, Zubeta, Macak, and the village of Krivajevici, so along that

 5     entire line there were fierce attacks coming from Breza.  Five of our

 6     soldiers were killed and then this was one of the stronger attacks coming

 7     from Breza.  However, our forces repelled this attack and the lines were

 8     not broken.  I know that throughout 1994 our battalion, including my

 9     unit -- well, we called that the Olovo front.  All the way up to 1995

10     when those very well-known things happened in Treskavica.

11        Q.   When you say very well-known things that happened in Treskavica,

12     it's what we discussed previously; right?

13        A.   Yes, because after that there were fierce attacks launched by the

14     Muslim forces all the way up until Dayton was signed.  Trnovo was on

15     fire.

16        Q.   Were you personally at this part of the front line that is

17     mentioned in this document that is in front of you on the screen?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  I was there personally, and Obrad Popadic, chief of

19     staff, a friend of mine, he was killed there.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document

21     as well.

22             MR. SHIN:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 08371 receives number D462,

25     Your Honours.

Page 21137

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I'm just going to put two more questions to you briefly.  Did you

 4     know Radivoje Avram was -- actually, if you know the man, was his house

 5     in the area where your unit was deployed?  Was Vojkovici under --

 6        A.   No, no, no, it wasn't.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Just tell us one more thing:  Did you ever have an

 8     opportunity of seeing General Mladic during the war?

 9        A.   I had two opportunities to see Mr. Mladic, General Mladic.  The

10     first time at Vrace when the Army of Republika Srpska was established in

11     May and the second time was on the 12th of July, 1993, at Orlovac, the

12     village of Ilovice, the first defence of Trnovo.  The General passed by

13     us, he proffered his hand.  He said, "Congratulations, guys, and tomorrow

14     I don't want to see any -- I don't want to see any other insignia on your

15     caps except for the tri-colour."  That is what remained in my memory in

16     terms of the General.

17        Q.   And what kind of insignia were on the caps in addition to the

18     tri-colour?

19        A.   Well, yes at that time -- well, you know, the army is the army so

20     everybody likes some particular insignia.  However, when the General

21     passed by us at Orlovac, he personally said this to us and he addressed

22     me.  He said, "Tomorrow, I don't want to see any other insignia on caps

23     except for our tri-colour."

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trapara, that is all I had for you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

Page 21138

 1             Before I give an opportunity to cross-examine the witness - we

 2     might do that after the break, Mr. Shin - I would have one or two

 3     questions for the witness.

 4             Mr. Trapara, you told us that humanitarian aid was always allowed

 5     through and that even if it was abused.  Were there ever circumstances

 6     under which you were ordered not to let through humanitarian aid, where

 7     it was prohibited for it to pass through?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I tell you, Your Honour, maybe

 9     sometimes there were some orders, but I said a moment ago I did not know.

10     Believe me, I always allowed convoys to go in the direction of Grbavica

11     at that.  I personally as far as my superior command was concerned, my

12     battalion command, never sent me an order like that to stop a convoy.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Same question for movement of humanitarian

14     organisations, were they ever prohibited to move around freely?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know to the best of my

16     knowledge at that time, no.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, sometimes nasty events happened.  You referred

18     to the killing of two young girls which is really very nasty that this

19     ever happened in the age of 8, 10 years, innocent children.  Did such

20     events not trigger a prohibition of humanitarian aid or a prohibition of

21     movement of humanitarian organisations?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically where we were, no.

23     Most of that, after all, was -- I mean, well, the entire town went

24     through Lukavica, I mean all of the humanitarian aid.  On that day when

25     the two little girls were killed, we did not receive an order to stop

Page 21139

 1     humanitarian aid convoys.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I have D461 on the screen, please, page 3 in

 3     English.  I don't know whether it's also page 3 in B/C/S.

 4             Could I invite you to read the paragraph, especially the last

 5     sentence of the paragraph II, situation in the territory.  I will read it

 6     aloud for you.

 7             "Due to sniper fire and the death of two girls, any movement of

 8     humanitarian organisations and convoys is prohibited until further

 9     notice."

10             In view of your testimony, do I have to understand that this

11     order which was so specifically focusing on the death of the two girls

12     never reached you?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, no.  According to this

14     document, it seems that I violated an order, but this order did not reach

15     me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

17             Judge Fluegge has one more question for you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have a question also in relation to the

19     convoys, and I would like to ask that D459 should be brought up on the

20     screen, paragraph 22 in both languages.  And I quote from your statement:

21             "Convoys passed through daily and always allowed them to pass

22     into the town.  Convoys were searched exclusively by the corps police."

23             And now please focus on the next sentence because I don't

24     understand that.  I quote:

25             "Did they ever receive an order to fire on civilians or civilian

Page 21140

 1     facilities, he answers that they did not, nor did he ever issue such an

 2     order."

 3             How do I have to understand this sentence, especially the "he"?

 4     Who is "he"?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I just don't understand,

 6     which paragraph is this?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's paragraph 22 at the end, the last sentence,

 8     in fact.

 9             "Did they ever receive an order to fire on civilians or civilian

10     facilities, he answers that they did not, nor did he ever issue such an

11     order."

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It probably relates to me.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then it's perhaps not properly drafted by the

14     Defence.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I noticed that, Your Honour, this morning when I was

16     re-reading the statement.  Obviously we left in the third person this

17     part of the statement.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that clarification.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we first take the break and we'll start the

21     cross-examination after the break.  We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00

22     and we'll take the break once the witness has been escorted out of the

23     courtroom.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

Page 21141

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 3     the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trapara, you'll now be cross-examined by

 6     Mr. Shin.  Mr. Shin is located to your right.  Mr. Shin is counsel for

 7     the Prosecution.

 8             Mr. Shin, please proceed.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Shin:

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Trapara.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   I'd like to begin with some questions about your unit.  Now, you

14     were, as you explain in your statement, in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised

15     Brigade, 2nd Battalion, 5th Company.  This battalion, as you explain

16     also, was originally the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade and

17     then it became the 2nd Battalion in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade

18     in May 1993.  We have that correct; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, regardless of the name of your unit or the designation it

21     had, your company's zone of responsibility did not change during the war;

22     is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, correct.

24        Q.   Now, as company commander, you held the rank of captain; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21142

 1        Q.   And you were a captain throughout the war?

 2        A.   When the war started, I was a lieutenant.

 3        Q.   When were you promoted?

 4        A.   In 1992.

 5        Q.   Now, as company commander, who was your immediate superior?

 6        A.   I had three battalion commanders.  They changed.  I can tell you

 7     the order of their names, if you need me to.

 8        Q.   If you could briefly tell us their names.

 9        A.   The first commander was Mr. Brane Plakalovic.  Very shortly after

10     him, he was wounded, so shortly after him it was Mr. Radomir Stojanovic.

11     He was killed in 1993.  And then after that it was Mr. Aleksandar

12     Petrovic who died.  From what I know he died in America.

13        Q.   Now, Aleksandar Petrovic, he became commander approximately when

14     in 1993?

15        A.   In early 1993.

16        Q.   Would it be right that the deputy commander for your battalion

17     was Milan Hrvacevic?

18        A.   Yes, but at a later stage of the conflict, not right at the

19     beginning but later.  Perhaps a year before the conflict ended.

20        Q.   So that would be in 1994; is that correct?

21        A.   Approximately.  Don't expect me to know the exact month, but

22     approximately yes.

23        Q.   And the assistant commander for intelligence and security in your

24     battalion was Dragan Maletic; correct?

25        A.   Yes, also in the second half, in the second half.

Page 21143

 1        Q.   Now, where was the 2nd Battalion's command post?

 2        A.   The 2nd Battalion's command post was located in

 3     Banjalucka Street.

 4        Q.   What neighbourhood was that?

 5        A.   It was between Grbavica and Vrace where the transit is, above the

 6     transit.  I'm thinking about the roundabout.

 7        Q.   Okay.  We'll get to that later.  Where was the command post for

 8     your company?

 9        A.   My company's command post was in the Lukavica sector,

10     Djukica Potok creek.  It was a private house.  That belonged to

11     Rajko Tomic.

12        Q.   Okay.  We may look at a map later where you can show us where

13     that was.  Now, the 2nd Battalion had six infantry companies; is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   What other units were attached to this battalion or under it?

17        A.   There was a squad or a platoon of 82-millimetre mortars.

18        Q.   And we'll get to that shortly as well.  Were there any other

19     units in the battalion, apart from that?

20        A.   If you're thinking about signals, the logistics units, that's

21     what else there would be more or less.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now, as an infantry officer, as a captain, would it be

23     correct that you also knew which units were part of the 1st Sarajevo

24     Mechanised Brigade?  In other words, above the level of the battalion?

25        A.   Up to a point, yes.

Page 21144

 1        Q.   Well, let me ask you, for example, in addition to infantry

 2     battalions such as the one that you belonged to, the 1st Sarajevo

 3     Mechanised Brigade also had a mixed artillery division; isn't that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   It also had an armoured battalion; isn't that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us what other components of the 1st Sarajevo

 8     Mechanised Brigade you can recall?

 9        A.   It had a logistics battalion, a signals company, engineers

10     company, another armoured battalion, military police, and what you

11     mentioned, that would be that and also the brigade command.

12        Q.   Okay.  Just so we're clear here, there were then two armoured

13     battalions; is that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, I'd like to focus on your company.  Now, in your company you

16     had some 100 to 180 men; is that right?

17        A.   The second number would refer to people who were in the company

18     at some point but then went elsewhere.  A lot of people came through the

19     company, but the actual number would be approximately 130 men.

20        Q.   And these men were organised in four platoons?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   As company commander you issued orders to your platoon

23     commanders; that's simply a fundamental principle of command and control.

24     Correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21145

 1        Q.   And they followed your orders; that's how command and control

 2     operates?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did -- if they had acted outside your orders or in violation

 5     of your orders, as their leader you would have had to take corrective

 6     action?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, regarding the levels of command above you, you've previously

 9     testified in the Dragomir Milosevic case that during your time -- during

10     the time that you served with the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the corps had

11     a functioning chain of command, from the corps to the brigade to

12     battalion levels.  So again, the levels above your command, the chain of

13     function -- the chain of command functioned; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   As company commander, now, you were responsible for the safety of

16     your men, among other things; isn't that correct?

17        A.   Yes, I was.

18        Q.   In the military a component of ensuring the safety of your men as

19     a commander is having situational awareness; that is, knowing the

20     situation in the field, in particular regarding your enemy and regarding

21     your own forces?

22        A.   If there was information about the enemy.

23        Q.   But otherwise, you accept what I said?

24        A.   I do, yes.

25        Q.   Your men, in fact, rely on you as their commander to have this

Page 21146

 1     kind of situational awareness; that's part of maintaining their safety?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, let's turn to a map that you've seen before.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Can I please have 65 ter 1D02064 on the screen.

 5        Q.   Mr. Trapara, you recognise this as a map that you have previously

 6     seen that was tendered as an associated exhibit to your Karadzic

 7     testimony -- I'm sorry, to your Karadzic statement.  You recognise the

 8     map; correct?

 9        A.   I do, yes.

10        Q.   Now, it's in English but do you understand what it says?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, off to the right that red circle with the arrow pointing to

13     it, that shows the location of three 82-millimetre mortars on

14     Prljevo Brdo; is that correct?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which circle?  Mr. Shin, is that the one in which

16     "Aneks" is written or the other one to the further side?

17             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, it's the small circle to the right.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it, yes.

20             MR. SHIN:

21        Q.   Yes, but that's correct that those -- that's correct that there

22     were three 82-millimetre mortars there, first?

23        A.   Yes, it's correct.  It's a three 82-millimetre battery that was

24     under the direct command of our battalion.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 21147

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Just -- yes, you're pointing at the circle, the

 2     thick one, right to 2nd Battalion.  Yes, I see it now because part is --

 3     it says 3 and half of an M, but it's the lower thick circle.

 4             MR. SHIN:  Could I please have the court officer simply move the

 5     map a little bit over so that we can see clearly what Mr. President is

 6     reading.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it's clear to me, yes.  It's next to where it's

 8     written "Turbe" and 3MB, 82-millimetre.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   And Mr. Trapara, just in case we lost that there, that location,

11     you understand that to be Prljevo Brdo or Prljevo hill; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now we'll return to this, and you may get some other questions on

14     this map, but I'd like to move --

15             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, first may I tender this?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2064 receives number P6514,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P6514 is admitted.

20             MR. SHIN:

21        Q.   Mr. Trapara, I'd like to focus on the front line for now and for

22     that I'll turn to a different map that you marked in your testimony in

23     the Dragomir Milosevic case.

24             MR. SHIN:  Could I please have 65 ter 30649.

25        Q.   Do you recognise this map to be a map that you marked during your

Page 21148

 1     testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic trial?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  I recognise it, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, I'd like to focus on the red line.  That is the line of

 4     confrontation; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And just so we have a complete picture here, the blue line is

 7     what you intended to be your company's area of responsibility along that

 8     line of confrontation?

 9        A.   The blue line indicates already the line of the B&H army forces

10     that were across from us already.  The blue circle was marking the depth

11     of the territory of the 2nd Battalion of the 101st Mountain Brigade of

12     the B&H army.

13        Q.   To assist us, could you tell us what stretch of that red line was

14     the area of responsibility of your company?

15        A.   The straight blue line, as you look at it, from the left end of

16     the blue line until the end of the blue line and a little bit longer to

17     the place where these two red lines merge.

18        Q.   Okay.  I think that description can help us orient ourselves on

19     that map.

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   Now, you indicated the line of confrontation with that red line

22     because you know this area well; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, would it be right that to the right side of this diagram

25     past the end of the area of responsibility that your company held, there

Page 21149

 1     was the 4th Company of your battalion?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And on the other side of that company, which unit held the line?

 4        A.   The 6th Company.

 5        Q.   And on the other side of the 6th Company?

 6        A.   Then it was the 3rd Company all the way to the Zeljeznica club

 7     stadium.

 8        Q.   Now, let's turn to the left side of this line.  You described in

 9     your Milosevic testimony that it went through Dobrinja 4, and indeed we

10     see it extending further south; is that correct?

11        A.   What I showed here was the line of separation during the Dayton.

12     While the conflict was still going on, the line was at Dobrinja 4,

13     Dobrinja 1, and then the Staro Sedelaca [phoen] settlement where the red

14     line curves.  And then later the line was extended a bit longer towards

15     the Serbian side.

16             MR. SHIN:  Okay.  Maybe if we could have a pen for the witness.

17        Q.   Mr. Trapara, could you please indicate where the confrontation

18     line was during the war in relation to the red line.

19        A.   Are we talking about Dobrinja?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, are you going to invite the witness to

21     mark further with a red pen ?

22             MR. SHIN:  We would prefer to have a new colour other than --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  A new colour.

24             MR. SHIN:  -- yes.  Sorry, I should have been clear about that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because if any additional marking is made, it

Page 21150

 1     should be clearly distinguished from the already existing blue and red

 2     marking.  Do we have green for the witness?

 3             And then could you please repeat your instruction to the witness,

 4     Mr. Shin.

 5             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Trapara, once again I'm asking you to indicate where the line

 7     of confrontation was during the war in the Dobrinja area.

 8        A.   I already marked the red line here.  During the war the line of

 9     confrontation was where I marked it, this red line.  We're talking about

10     Dobrinja 1 and Dobrinja 4.

11        Q.   Okay.  I think we're clear now that that red line actually is the

12     confrontation line during the war and not some other line; correct?

13        A.   Correct.  That was the confrontation line during the war, the red

14     line.

15        Q.   Now, in your statement you say that the unit to your left was the

16     engineering company of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.  Now, first, by the "1st

17     Sarajevo Brigade," you do mean the same thing as the 1st Sarajevo

18     Mechanised Brigade; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Indeed, that's sometimes the way the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised

21     Brigade was referred to, as the 1st Sarajevo Brigade?

22        A.   It was shorter so that's how most people named the brigade.

23        Q.   And this engineering company is the one you spoke of as being

24     directly attached to the brigade; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21151

 1        Q.   Who was on the other side of the engineering company on the Serb

 2     lines?

 3        A.   The 2nd Battalion of the 101st Mountain Brigade.

 4        Q.   Perhaps my question was unclear.  Among the VRS units, which unit

 5     was on the other side of the engineering company?

 6        A.   I'm sorry, yes.  In Dobrinja 4 and Dobrinja 1 there was a part

 7     of -- to the left of the engineering company there was a unit comprising

 8     soldiers from the 1st Armoured Battalion.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, you're familiar with this area not only because

10     you were an infantry commander during the war but also because you lived

11     in this area most of your life; is that right?

12        A.   I was born here, right here on this line that you are mentioning

13     between the two Dobrinjas.  I grew up there.

14        Q.   Now, you're familiar with an area called Veljine just to the east

15     of Dobrinja 4; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And there is an Orthodox church there, that's the

18     Vasilije Ostroski church?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. SHIN:  I'd like to move to another document.  Could I please

21     have P4455.  And while that's coming up, could I please tender into

22     evidence this map which is 65 ter 30649.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  With or without the additional markings?  I see

24     there are two green, there's a 1 and what appears to be a 2 but close to

25     the confrontation line, but the witness spoke about the Dobrinja 4 so I'm

Page 21152

 1     a bit confused.  But I think we can do without the markings.

 2             MR. SHIN:  I think we -- yes, absolutely, Mr. President, we can

 3     do without the markings because the witness had corrected himself to

 4     indicate --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. SHIN:  -- that that red line was what we were looking at.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the map as previously marked by the

 8     witness with red and blue would receive number?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30649 receives number P6515,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. SHIN:  Could I please have P4455 now on the screen.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, this is a report as you can see from the

15     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command dated 14th of June, 1992.  If we look at

16     the back briefly we see it's signed by Commander Colonel Tomislav Sipcic.

17     And turning back to the front page, do you see the heading number 1,

18     Sarajevska Brigada, that's in your language.  Now, would that refer to

19     the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

20        A.   Probably.

21        Q.   Looking down at item number 9 under this first -- under the

22     heading "Sarajevo Brigade," it reads:

23             "1 self-propelled artillery battery from composition of 1st

24     Sarajevo Brigade with one platoon on Veljine (the church), and with the

25     2nd Platoon in village Vranjes."

Page 21153

 1             Do you understand this document to mean that there was an

 2     artillery battery at the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade that held that

 3     position?

 4        A.   It says here one squad from the 1st Sarajevo Brigade with one

 5     platoon on Veljine at the church and another platoon in the village of

 6     Vranjes.  So one weak PVO, which means anti-aircraft defence.  When I was

 7     telling you a moment ago that the zone of responsibility of the 1st PKB

 8     was there, I meant people -- men were taken from there and sent as

 9     infantry to Dobrinja 1 and 4.  And the church at Veljine is just behind

10     Dobrinja 4.  Now, looking at this I can only speculate whether

11     infantrymen were sent there to assist the armoured battalion as

12     reinforcement.  I don't know --

13        Q.   Mr. Witness --

14        A.   -- it was just not --

15        Q.   -- let me stop you there.  I'm not asking you to speculate.  Now,

16     the question was simply:  This provision right here provides that there

17     is -- that there is a battery from the 1st Sarajevo Brigade with one

18     platoon on Veljine; correct?

19        A.   It's not a battalion, no question.  It says very explicitly 1

20     weak anti-aircraft defence, self-propelled light artillery battery from

21     the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, that means that they had very few men, and

22     another platoon in the village of Vranjes.

23        Q.   Mr. Trapara, my question to you is simply this:  That battery,

24     not battalion, that battery was clearly on Veljine?  Thank you.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21154

 1             MR. SHIN:  Now, can I please have 65 ter 30643.

 2             And, Your Honours, while we're waiting for that to come up this

 3     is a detail from map P3, e-court page 54.  Now, if we could zoom in a

 4     little bit to the lower half of this map.  That would do.

 5        Q.   Mr. Trapara, you see from right around the middle, right to the

 6     left going in a south-westerly direction you see Miljevici; correct?

 7        A.   I see it.

 8        Q.   Now, you know this area well.  Do you see where Vranjes is?

 9        A.   I see it.

10        Q.   Between that and Dobrinja, that's where Veljine is; isn't that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, if we zoom in a little bit more on the lower half of this,

14     you see almost --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

16             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- apparently the witness has found

18     Vranjes, I not -- yes, I see it.  I apologise.

19             MR. SHIN:  No, I'm sorry, Mr. President, I should have indicated

20     to Your Honours as well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we have Miljevici and Vranjes --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Please do, because I still don't see it.

23             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, if we look at the three flags we see in

24     Cyrillic -- well, a CPK in the middle and immediately to the right

25     something that looks like 4A -- AU -- yes, thank you, Mr. President.

Page 21155

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, I'd like you to focus on a flag depicted on

 2     this map.  The bottom of this flag is just at the G of G. Kotorac,

 3     Gornji Kotorac.  Do you see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, on that flag we see in Cyrillic letters OKB; isn't that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And that's the acronym for the armoured battalion you were

 9     speaking of; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And finally on this map, as we see just below where it says

12     G. Kotorac, this red line that we see, this thin red line made of dashes

13     and dots, would it be correct that that's the border-line between the

14     Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and the next brigade over?

15        A.   Yes.  The neighbour is the Light Sarajevo Brigade.

16             MR. SHIN:  Could I please tender this map, Your Honours?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30643 receives number P6516,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             MR. SHIN:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, would it be correct that either this armoured

23     battalion or the other armoured battalion also had T-55 tanks?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   How many tanks did they have?

Page 21156

 1        A.   I cannot tell you exactly.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to move to a slightly different area now.  In

 3     your statement or earlier today you were explaining about the three

 4     82-millimetre mortars and we saw the location of that on the map earlier.

 5     Now, you've explained in previous testimony that you as company commander

 6     could ask for support from these mortars which were under the control of

 7     the battalion; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And this was in the Dragomir Milosevic testimony.  You further

10     explained specifically that you "personally as a commander could call on

11     these mortars."

12             And my question to you is:  How was that done?  Was that done by

13     radio or was that done by something else?

14        A.   We did it in two ways, by radio and by telephone, wire telephone.

15     We had a wire connection from the battalion command to my company.  Thus,

16     when I felt the need for mortars, I would call the superior command to

17     get them to approve mortar action only in situations when we were

18     directly attacked and my own life and the lives of my soldiers were in

19     danger.

20        Q.   Now, who did you call specifically at the battalion command when

21     you wanted the support of these mortars?

22        A.   Somebody from the command.  The duty officer if I was unable to

23     get the commander of the battalion or his deputy, I would call the duty

24     officer at the command of the battalion.  The commander could not always

25     be present; he was often in the field.

Page 21157

 1        Q.   Now, you explained the circumstances under which you would make

 2     this call for mortar support.  Let me ask you, would you, for example,

 3     call in mortar fire in response to sniper fire you were receiving from

 4     the ABiH?

 5        A.   I never called in mortar support in reaction to sniper fire

 6     because it would have been too risky for us.  When there was sniper fire

 7     we mostly --

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, if the translation could continue.  I wasn't sure if

 9     you were finished.

10        A.   I was about to say this:  We neutralised sniper fire from our

11     positions using the Browning 12.7-millimetres because we targeted

12     directly those places from which we noticed the sniper firing at our

13     positions and behind our lines at the population.

14        Q.   Now, you mentioned a Browning.  Is it -- would it be appropriate

15     also in response to sniper fire to use rockets?

16        A.   I didn't have that capability.  I didn't have rockets.

17        Q.   I'm asking you whether as an infantry commander you think that

18     would be an appropriate response to sniper fire?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's a hypothetical question.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Asked and answered.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether that's true or not, but at least it's

23     a hypothetical question.

24             Mr. Shin, if you could make it a factual question, then.  But

25     whether it would be appropriate to do something where the witness told us

Page 21158

 1     that he didn't have that facility available to him that --

 2             MR. SHIN:  Okay.  I'll move on.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]...

 4             MR. SHIN:  -- Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Trapara, you in your statement talk about receiving daily

 6     sniper fire and you've just described that a little bit now.  Apart from

 7     the Browning was there anything else that you had available in your

 8     company to respond to sniper fire?

 9        A.   We had an anti-aircraft gun, 20-millimetres, it was issued to us,

10     to my company from supplies, PAT 20-millimetres, that means anti-aircraft

11     machine-gun.  In 1994 when the order came to remove heavy weapons at a

12     certain distance from Sarajevo, we had to give it up.

13        Q.   Mr. Trapara, would it also be correct that you could use rifles

14     to neutralise a sniper?

15        A.   Well, you can do it even with a pistol if you are that good a

16     marksman.  We could have, but a sniper fires two bullets and then runs

17     away to a different area, to a different sector.  And that happened every

18     day.  In my statement I said that throughout the war we were below Muslim

19     forces --

20        Q.   Mr. Trapara --

21        A.   -- Bogusevac and --

22        Q.   -- I'm sorry to stop you there but I think we're getting a little

23     far afield from the line of topics we were discussing.  Now, you were

24     saying that -- what you were saying is of course that if you were a good

25     marksman you could neutralise a sniper; that's what you said.  Correct?

Page 21159

 1        A.   Yes.  But you know what that means?  That means finding a good

 2     sniper that would take out the sniper on the other side with a rifle, and

 3     that happened too.

 4        Q.   Now, you described the possibility of calling your battalion

 5     command for 82-millimetre mortar support.  Isn't it also the case that if

 6     your men's safety -- if their lives were in danger, you could call on the

 7     battalion command for any other assets that they had available to support

 8     your troops?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, could I seek clarification of one of the

11     previous answers?

12             MR. SHIN:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You said, Witness, you said responding to sniper

14     fire, you said:

15             "That means finding a good sniper that would take out the sniper

16     on the other side with a rifle and that happened too."

17             Do I understand that in response to sniper fire you found good

18     snipers that would take out the sniper on the other side, that that

19     happened?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be in one case in a

21     thousand, but it happened.  We had few such men.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One in a thousand?  That seems -- sounds very

23     exceptional.  Was that exceptional?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was really that exceptional that

25     a sniper could take out a sniper.  He really had to be master of his

Page 21160

 1     trade.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, to be successful.  But how often was it tried

 3     to eliminate a sniper on the other side by using snipers on your side?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The worst thing for me was that we

 5     didn't have any snipers at all.  We didn't need snipers because we

 6     were -- we were on lower ground.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But you said it happened, which suggests that at

 8     least there were snipers, if not in your own unit then nearby, to do this

 9     exceptional job?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard of such things,

11     nowhere near me, but yes such cases existed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So the one out of thousands you do not even have

13     personal knowledge about this happening?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

16             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, continuing on with this issue of snipers.

18     First, do you accept that in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade there

19     were considerable quantities of sniper weapons, optical equipment, and

20     silencers for sniper rifles?

21        A.   At brigade level, yes.

22             MR. SHIN:  In that light can we briefly have P675 on the screen.

23        Q.   This is an order from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command to all

24     units.  You can see at the bottom the signature of the commander,

25     General Galic.  Now let's go to point 1.  It states:

Page 21161

 1             "Each brigade should set up a platoon-strength snipers group

 2     (30 + 1 soldiers).  These should be supplied with sniper rifles, optical,

 3     and infrared, passive sights, silencers."

 4             Do you see that, Mr. Trapara?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Now, this would appear to refer to what were saying about

 7     battalion assets, battalions having snipers; correct?

 8        A.   I've said the brigade had these assets.  I just said that.

 9        Q.   I'm sorry, that's right, you said brigades.  I would like to go

10     to point 2.  It states:

11             "These forces should immediately start training and carrying out

12     assignments ..."

13             And point 3 states:

14             "Report to Corps Command by 2400 ..."

15             Now, this order to all units in the SRK, do you accept that that

16     means it would have gone to, as you say, the brigade level?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   By the way, you see that this document is number 20/15-1244,

19     1244.  Let's move to another document --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do, can I ask this question?

21             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Trapara, this order in the first paragraph

23     says:

24             "Each brigade should set up a platoon-strength snipers group ..."

25             How do I understand that?  Does it mean the brigade forms a

Page 21162

 1     platoon, which is armed with snipers?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what the document says, it's

 3     written there.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does that mean then that the sniper groups did not

 5     just end at the brigade, they went down to the platoon?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, by logic that should be so --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not by logic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but it didn't reach me.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not by logic, by this order.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, according to the order.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             MR. SHIN:  If I could have P762 on the screen, please.

13        Q.   Now, while we're waiting for this document -- just one moment,

14     please.

15             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, I misspoke, Ms. Stewart has corrected me,

16     it's P672.

17        Q.   Mr. Trapara, this is a document you've seen before.  It's a

18     report from the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade to the Sarajevo-Romanija

19     Corps command.  Now, you see at the bottom it's from

20     Colonel Veljko Stojanovic, commander of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised

21     Brigade.  We can see it begins:

22             "Pursuant to your order, strictly confidential, number

23     20/15-1244 ..."

24             And this is a report in response to the order from General Galic,

25     the very document we just saw.  And this, by the way, reflects the chain

Page 21163

 1     of command, right?  The corps command issues an order to the brigades and

 2     the brigades report on the implementation of the order?  You nodded your

 3     head; is that a "yes"?  You nodded your head again.  Please just say yes

 4     for the record.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Trapara, if you are nodding, that does not

 6     appear on the transcript so everyone will have to guess what your answer

 7     was.  When you were nodding, you were confirming the accuracy of what

 8     Mr. Shin said?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a moment ago I did.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. SHIN:

12        Q.   So on the chain of command -- in fact, we see at the stamp at the

13     bottom of this document that the report was received at 2350 hours,

14     obediently complying with the orders specification that reports were due

15     to the corps command by 2400 hours.  You see that; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, you see that this document refers to various items that the

18     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade possessed.  I'm not going to read them

19     all out, but you see, for example, the references to number 4,

20     7.9-millimetre sniper rifle, 12 pieces, and we see number 8, sniper rifle

21     silencers, four pieces, and so on.  All together there are 30 rifles

22     listed among this equipment.  So now do you accept that your brigade,

23     this 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade had these weapons, as indicated by

24     the brigade commander?

25        A.   I said to you a moment ago that the brigade had that and there is

Page 21164

 1     nothing controversial here.

 2        Q.   Well then we'll continue.  Right after this inventory at the

 3     bottom of this document we read:

 4             "As we don't have a special sniper unit, we have issued the

 5     sniper rifles to combatants in the subordinated units.

 6             "They are active when the combatants are in position ..."

 7             Now, first, subordinate units, that would mean the battalions;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you accept that the brigade commander issued these sniper

11     rifles to combatants in the subordinated units and that they were indeed

12     active as the commander has indicated here?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And we see further below that there is a request for further

15     rifles and more silencers; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, you've told this Court that the commander of the battalion

18     was Aleksandar Petrovic, deputy was Milan Hrvacevic, and the assistant

19     commander for intel and security was Dragan Maletic, all in the

20     2nd Battalion; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. SHIN:  If I could have another document, please, this is

23     65 ter 30656.  And let's just have the first page in both, please.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, do you see under number 19 Aleksandar Petrovic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 21165

 1        Q.   And there is also Milan Hrvacevic in number 8 and Dragan Maletic

 2     in number 14?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   At the top of this page we see the word "command," "komanda."

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   This would appear to be a list of personnel at the command of

 7     your battalion; isn't that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. SHIN:  Now, can we please have page 3 in B/C/S and English

10     page 3.  I'll be flipping over to page 4 as well for the English.

11        Q.   At the bottom half of this page, Mr. Trapara, do you see the word

12     "snipers"?  And on the B/C/S you can see that there are 11 names.

13        A.   I see that.

14        Q.   Now, this indicates that there were 11 snipers under the command

15     of the battalion, not the brigade; isn't that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. SHIN:  Your Honours, could I have this document given an MFI

18     number?  It will be used again with another witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30656 receives number P6517,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

23             MR. SHIN:  Mr. President, if I may continue just for a few more

24     minutes to finish this section?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you think that five minutes would do?

Page 21166

 1             MR. SHIN:  Absolutely.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do so and we'll take a break after that.

 3             MR. SHIN:

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, I'm going to remind you that you said in your

 5     statement that the Muslim units facing you had a large number of snipers.

 6     That was their major strength.  I'm looking at paragraph 20.  And there

 7     was almost daily sniping against Serbian positions and civilians.  Now,

 8     as you say you had - and this is the same paragraph - "...  no trained

 9     professional snipers ..."

10             You've described the situation of the snipers, described the fact

11     that you called the battalion for 82-millimetre mortar support.  Did you

12     ever ask the battalion command for sniper support?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Did you ever ask the battalion command about sniper assets?

15        A.   This is the first time I see this document.  Now, whether this

16     was hidden from me, I don't know.  I don't know about this.  I just

17     know --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the second part

19     of the sentence.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I see this

21     document and the signatures.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite you to repeat what you said after you

23     said:  What I do know ... and then what you then said was lost.  You

24     said:

25             "I don't know about this.  I just know ..."

Page 21167

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What, what did you just know?  Could you please

 3     repeat it.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just know that none of the

 5     mentioned soldiers who are mentioned as snipers, none of these soldiers

 6     were from my unit.  They didn't even come close to my unit.  This is the

 7     first time I see this document today with these signatures.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us where you say they did not even

 9     come close to your unit, where they then were to be found, if not close

10     to your unit?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know the

12     location.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So it could even be close to your unit if you don't

14     know the location?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible for me only to make

16     an assumption.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. SHIN:  Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. SHIN:  I have a couple more questions but maybe after the

21     break since I can't control how long those questions may take.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll take the break first.  Mr. Shin, I

23     think you have approximately 15 minutes left from your estimate of two

24     hours.  Is that -- I think we resumed at ten minutes to 11.00.  We are

25     now close to 12.00.

Page 21168

 1             MR. SHIN:  I'll assume that you are right, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Shin, but your last question, was it answered,

 3     irrespective of whether the witness has seen this document for the first

 4     time, your question was:  Did you ever ask the battalion for sniper

 5     assets?

 6             MR. SHIN:  Yes, I was going to return to that question but I can

 7     have the answer now if the witness is available.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said no.  I did not ask the

 9     battalion for snipers.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Not snipers but sniper assets.  There were two

12     separate questions.  You were asked about snipers and sniper assets, in

13     other words, guns themselves.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Neither.  I asked for neither.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

16             We take a break of 20 minutes, Mr. Trapara.

17                           [The witness stands down].

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past midday.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be brought

22     into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, for the next witness - and there are no

23     protective measures as far as I remember - Mr. Skrba, the -- I think on

24     the basis of the first witness list we concluded that the lower estimate

25     would be the valid one, while we had then 1 hour and 30 minutes and 45

Page 21169

 1     minutes, so we expected 45 minutes to be the time you would need but

 2     now --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  It is 45 minutes.  I just checked --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's 45 minutes.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  -- with Mr. Stojanovic since it's his witness.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And not 1 hour and 30 minutes.  That's been

 7     clarified.  We can proceed.

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, you may proceed.

10             MR. SHIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Mr. Trapara, I'd like to move to a different topic right now.

12     I'd like to discuss an incident on October 15th, 1991, involving charges

13     of the illegal possession of weapons and explosives and involving you.

14     Could you please tell this Court what this case involved so they have a

15     full picture and a full understanding of what this was about.

16        A.   In my statement, at the very outset of the statement, I said that

17     in the month of September 1991 I saw Jusuf Prazina, nicknamed Juka, with

18     his paramilitary units, and I saw them a lot every day.  They instilled

19     fear amongst the population of Lukavica with their sporadic gun-fire --

20        Q.   Mr. Trapara, if I could interrupt you there.  My apologies.

21     Perhaps I should have been more specific.  Could you please describe your

22     arrest for this incident and what happened afterwards.

23        A.   On the 15th of October, 1991, around 11.00 in the evening my

24     uncle asked me whether I could go with him to Miljevici on a truck so

25     that we could get a load.  At first I didn't know what this was all

Page 21170

 1     about.  When we arrived there, the village of Miljevic, that is, next to

 2     a warehouse and a chicken farm at the time some people said "Ignjatije,

 3     load this on to that truck and get going."  Also, some young men loaded

 4     this - I really don't know why I went in the first place - these young

 5     men put these boxes on the truck within 10 or 15 minutes --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 7     microphones please be switched off.  We cannot hear the witness.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we went in the direction of

 9     Lukavica.  Can we hear each other now?  Towards the area of Prljavo Brdo.

10     As soon as we stopped this truck, within ten minutes or so a patrol car

11     of the police arrived and three policemen got out.  I personally knew two

12     of them.  One of them was called Jure, he was the commander, and the

13     other one was Sulejman, Zoll [phoen], and the third one arrived later --

14     actually later I heard that his name was Pajdakovic [phoen],

15     Sajuci [phoen].  They just asked then who the driver of that truck was.

16     My uncle Ignjatije said:  I.  One of the policemen got on to the truck

17     with him and the other two got into their own car and then they went in

18     the direction of Vrace.  I went back to my own home, and then the next

19     day, the following day, that is, I went to work as usual.  I worked at

20     Post Office II in Sarajevo at the new railway station.

21             I worked there for 10 or 12 days until two military policemen

22     came and then they took me in.  They took me to the Viktor Bubanj prison.

23     I was detained there for 28 days.  After that, I went back to my job,

24     that is to say in November, and I worked all the way up until the 3rd of

25     April.  I remember that very well.  It was the holiday of Bajram.  From

Page 21171

 1     that day onwards, for personal and security reasons, I did not go to

 2     work.  It was impossible to get through.  There were barricades there,

 3     et cetera.  That is what I have to say about that incident.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I seek clarification on one issue.  You said

 6     your uncle was asked who was the driver, "he said:  I."  Did you mean to

 7     say that he himself was the driver or that you were the driver?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  My uncle was the driver of

 9     this Zastava.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you tell us what was loaded, finally,

11     whether you have any knowledge, because that's the missing part of the

12     story?  What was found in that car?  What was in those boxes?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.  Believe me.  These

14     were boxes and I could just assume --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, please.  Do you know now what was found in those

16     boxes?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I do know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Tell us, please.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read a report of the MUP of the

20     SRBiH, that is to say the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21     I think it was dated the 16th of October and it is stated there

22     unequivocally --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please tell us, apart from what you read in a

24     report, what was found in those boxes according to this report.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was found was semiautomatic

Page 21172

 1     rifles.  Also, this other thing, it was called "dobosari," they used

 2     ammunition for pistols, and also there was a certain amount of ammunition

 3     there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  How many semiautomatic rifles were in there as

 5     reported?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  Believe me,

 7     I don't know the exact number.  To this day I do not know the exact

 8     number.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

10             MR. SHIN:

11        Q.   Mr. Trapara, you've referred to a police bulletin or a police

12     report.

13             MR. SHIN:  Could I have 65 ter 30639 on the screen.  And if we go

14     to the first page.  While it's coming up, I'll describe what it is.  It's

15     a bulletin of significant daily events dated 16th of October, 1991, and

16     at the top of the cover page it reads:  "Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

17     Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior."  Now let's go to page 2 in

18     English and 2 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   Now, I'll orient you to where I'm going, Mr. Trapara.  Do you see

20     the reference in the top third of the page with a line beginning with the

21     words "Naime, radnici ..."

22             Now, first of all, this is the report that you were just talking

23     about, the police report; that's correct, right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, we see that it states that:

Page 21173

 1             "At about 0200 hours on the 15th of October, in the village of

 2     Ivanici, policemen at the Novo Sarajevo public security station stopped a

 3     freight vehicle that was being driven by its owner, Ignjatije Trapara.

 4     The truck was stopped at a second attempt after it failed to stop when

 5     the patrol first flagged it down."

 6             That's what the report reads, correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now I'll move a few lines down where the cargo is

 9     addressed.  Now, the Judges have asked you what this was cargo was.

10     You've given an answer.  You've seen this report before.  Now let's see

11     what it says.

12             "The following items were found in the truck:  Two hand-held

13     launchers, two optical sights with the original boxes, two hand-held

14     launcher mounts, two cleaning brushes for hand-held launchers, four

15     wooden boxes containing 40 semi-automatic rifles with corresponding

16     technical sheets, ammunition pouchs, and cleaning kits, seven

17     semi-automatic rifles, four wooden boxes containing 3.600, 7.9-millimetre

18     rounds, eight wooden boxes with 8.960, 7.62-millimetre rounds, and one

19     box containing two M-53 light machine-guns with supplementary equipment,

20     technical sheets, and cleaning kits ..."

21             Did I read that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Would you agree with me that this is considerably more than what

24     you just told the Judges when they had asked you more than once what was

25     in the cargo?

Page 21174

 1        A.   Well, I didn't know, I didn't know what the content was of this

 2     cargo.

 3        Q.   Well, you say now that you didn't know, but let's go back to see

 4     what you said in the Dragomir Milosevic case.

 5             MR. SHIN:  If I could have a moment, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps meanwhile I ask one question.

 7             The report states that you tried to flee.  What was the reason

 8     for that?  Did it happen and what was the reason if it happened?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, it did not happen.  I

10     said a moment ago I was of no interest to them at all.  They just asked

11     who the driver of the truck was.  The following day I went to work as

12     usual, as I said a moment ago.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So you said when they report that you tried to

14     escape that's just not true?  Because that was my question.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not true.  That's not true.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not run away?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No way.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Shin.

19             MR. SHIN:

20        Q.   But, Mr. Trapara, you accept that that's what the police report

21     reads of course?

22        A.   Well, police reports are not always truthful.

23        Q.   Mr. --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin.

25             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

Page 21175

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If a report is so clear in its reading, then whether

 2     the witness confirms that it says so only if there's any matter which

 3     could reasonably be in dispute, but otherwise the Chamber reads that

 4     that's what the report tells us.

 5             MR. SHIN:  Yes, there's one other sentence which is relevant that

 6     I will point you to.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do.

 8             MR. SHIN:  If we could on this document go to the English page 3

 9     and the B/C/S page 3 as well.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, in the B/C/S this is in the upper third.  This

11     is a sentence that was not previously read to you in your prior

12     testimonies.  It -- and I'll read it out to you.  I'll read it out to you

13     now.  It states:

14             "The search for Predrag Trapara, 28, and Slobodan Trapara, 39,

15     postmen at the Sarajevo Post Office II is continuing."

16             That certainly suggests that they were looking for you, doesn't

17     it?

18        A.   Is it possible for me to work, to go to work the very next day

19     all the way up until April 1992, and there I was working and then

20     somebody writes this up and says that I was trying to escape?  I cannot

21     understand that.  That report, that list that I got concerning employment

22     after Dayton, and everything is stated there, that I worked, that I was

23     at my job until the 4th of April, I cannot believe that they say that I

24     tried to escape.

25        Q.   Mr. Trapara, I'll return to this issue, but right now I want to

Page 21176

 1     return first to what we were discussing earlier.

 2             MR. SHIN:  And if I could briefly go into private session,

 3     Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 5             MR. SHIN:  And while waiting for that I would just note that I'm

 6     moving into private session because it requires a portion of

 7     the Milosevic -- I won't --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you wait for the confirmation that we are in

 9     private session.

10             MR. SHIN:  Sure.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 21177











11  Pages 21177-21178 redacted.  Private session.















Page 21179

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Shin, you may proceed.

18             MR. SHIN:

19        Q.   Mr. Trapara, now even after you had read this police report in

20     response to questions from the Court, you didn't give the full

21     explanation of what it was, did you?  You left out -- as we saw, you left

22     out two machine-guns; that's correct, isn't it?

23        A.   Yes, I left it out but it's written in the report.

24        Q.   Yes.  And you left out some other things as well, but I'm going

25     to move to a few other issues here.  Now, today you told the Judges that

Page 21180

 1     you went back to work in your post office for 10 to 12 day.  Do you

 2     recall that in earlier testimony, perhaps to you a small difference, in

 3     an earlier testimony you said that you went back to work for seven days

 4     before the military police came to get you.  That's correct, is it?

 5        A.   Well, all right.  I mean, a man cannot remember everything that

 6     happened 20 years ago in a five-day period, five days here or there.  I

 7     cannot remember precisely.  But if we're talking about a certain period,

 8     it could be seven days later or seven days earlier.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, you've been asked about the contents of this

10     truck.  This is the third case you've been asked about the contents of

11     this truck.  Now, in the first -- in the Dragomir Milosevic case, do you

12     recall that it took Defence counsel three questions for you to even begin

13     discussing the contents of that truck; do you recall that?

14        A.   In which case?

15        Q.   In the Dragomir Milosevic case.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And even after that, in the Karadzic case when you were asked

18     about this and you were asked what the cargo was, your initial response

19     was that it merely held these "dobosari" pistols and some

20     semi-automatics; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Isn't it clear that you are trying to minimise the nature of this

23     incident, the gravity of this incident, and your involvement, at least

24     you're trying to minimise it until you're confronted with the police

25     report?

Page 21181

 1        A.   I wasn't trying to minimise it.  I wasn't sure how much of

 2     everything there was until I read this document.

 3        Q.   I'm going to move on now to ask you about what happened after --

 4     what happened after this incident.  Can you tell us in terms of criminal

 5     procedure you say that -- I can't recall if you explained.  Did you end

 6     up going to court and what happened afterwards?

 7        A.   I ended up before a military court and we were sentenced by the

 8     former JNA.  Our trial was held at Viktor Bubanj.

 9        Q.   And it's correct that at that time of course, as you say, that

10     was the JNA that held the barracks?

11             I'll move on since you've already answered that question.  Did

12     you receive a fine as well?

13        A.   We did, yes.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. SHIN:  With that, Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 30639.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30639 receives number P6518,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

20             MR. SHIN:

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, I'd like to move on back to this issue of

22     humanitarian convoys.  In your statement --

23             MR. SHIN:  And, Your Honours, that's paragraphs 21 and 22.

24        Q.   -- in your statement you address humanitarian assistance for the

25     Muslim-held part of town and you explain that you always let that

Page 21182

 1     through.  In the Karadzic testimony you were shown this document which is

 2     now D462, if we could just have that up briefly.

 3             At that time in the Karadzic testimony you were asked -- when you

 4     were asked about this document, you answered:

 5             "When it comes to this order, I have to say that I could have

 6     learned about it through the battalion command.  That was the only way

 7     for me to be aware of this order, but I never received this order from

 8     the battalion commander nor was I aware of it."

 9             So you weren't of course aware of that document?

10             I'm not sure what the translation was, Mr. Trapara, I'm not

11     trying to ask a complicated question.  I'm just simply asking you to

12     confirm that, as you said in your Karadzic testimony, you were not aware

13     of that document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, we don't need to bring up this other document, but regarding

16     document D461 you were asked about that as well in the Karadzic testimony

17     and your answer at that time was:

18             "At that time I was a young man.  I was a company commander.  I

19     was a local guy.  People knew me and I did not have access to information

20     at such a high level.  This was a very high level for me."

21             So once again, that's a document you really didn't know anything

22     about; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, you addressed also a document earlier today that was P2050,

25     and regarding that document as well - and this was about humanitarian

Page 21183

 1     assistance also - you were asked about that in Karadzic again.  You

 2     answered:

 3             "I didn't know anything about that at that time.  I knew

 4     Mr. Abdic well but only from the media like everyone else.  I didn't know

 5     that things had to be done the way as is described here."

 6             So you didn't know about that document either; isn't that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   It's not quite clear to me what documents you're talking about.

 9     I don't have anything in front of me here.

10        Q.   That's fair enough.

11             MR. SHIN:  Can we have P2050 on the screen.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And earlier when you were talking I

13     didn't have anything in front of me.

14             MR. SHIN:

15        Q.   This is the most recent document we were talking about, P2050,

16     and in the Karadzic case you had been read part of paragraph 6.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you perhaps briefly introduce the document.

18             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course, Mr. President.  This is a code cable

19     from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan.  It's dated 14 March 1995.  And if we go to

20     paragraph 6 I'll read the relevant passage.  The first sentence reads:

21             "On the subject of freedom of movement, particularly with regard

22     to the delivery of humanitarian assistance, General Mladic was very

23     obstructive.  He insisted on absolute parity between what is delivered to

24     the Bosnian Serbs and what is delivered to the enclaves ..."

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Trapara, you were asked in the Karadzic case by the

Page 21184

 1     Prosecution whether on the basis of this you would accept that there was

 2     indeed a policy at the highest levels of the Bosnian Serb army in the

 3     highest levels of the Bosnian Serb political organs to deliberately

 4     obstruct the delivery of humanitarian assistance.  And at that question

 5     your response was what I mentioned earlier, that you didn't know anything

 6     about that at the time.  Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, I'd like to move on to paragraph 14 of your statement.  You

 9     don't need to refer to that.  I'll tell you what it says.  You say

10     civilians in your area on Serbian territory were "frightened by frequent

11     shelling from the Muslim side ..."

12             Now, it would be logical, wouldn't it, that heavy shelling would

13     frighten them more than light shelling?  Mr. Trapara, we're not on that

14     document now.  Perhaps if we could remove the document from the screens

15     and I can return to the question.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Shin, and the Chamber would prefer if you

17     would not ask the witness what is logical or not but rather to ask what

18     he knows.

19             MR. SHIN:  Yes, of course, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Logic is not the easiest thing in a courtroom.

21             MR. SHIN:

22        Q.   Mr. Trapara, my question to you:  You said in your statement that

23     civilians, Serb civilians, on your side in Serbian territory were

24     frightened by the frequency of shelling from the Muslim side.  They were

25     more frightened by heavier shelling than they were by very light

Page 21185

 1     shelling; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, you would agree that civilians on the other side, Muslim

 4     civilians, would likewise be frightened by shelling?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And you agree that they would also be frightened more by heavy

 7     shelling than by light shelling?

 8        A.   Yes, of course.

 9        Q.   So you would agree -- well, let me put it this way.  Would you

10     agree that shelling was heavier from the Serb side than it was from the

11     ABiH side?

12        A.   At the beginning, at the line where I was, yes; but then from the

13     middle until the end it was more or less even.  So at the beginning of

14     the war what you said is correct, but from the middle until the end of

15     the war what I said stands.  They armed themselves more and more each

16     day, so we were equally matched.

17        Q.   My question to you wasn't about whether you were both equally

18     matched.  My question to you whether you would agree that the shelling

19     was heavier from the Serb side than from the ABiH side?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  It is asked and answered.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is, Mr. Shin.  Please proceed.

23             MR. SHIN:

24        Q.   I'd like to now turn to the discussion that we had earlier about

25     the 20-millimetre anti-aircraft gun that you had, the PAT.  Now, how long

Page 21186

 1     was it that you had these guns -- I'm sorry, that gun.

 2        A.   From November 1992 until the order in 1994 I think when the order

 3     came for the heavy artillery to be relocated from Sarajevo to I don't

 4     know how many kilometres back, until that time.  So according to that

 5     order it was specified what sort of weaponry could remain.  The

 6     20-millimetre PAT anti-aircraft gun had to be moved.

 7        Q.   And when in 1994 was it that it had to be moved?

 8        A.   I can't remember the exact month.

 9        Q.   Do you recall in prior testimony that you said that that occurred

10     in August of 1994?

11        A.   It was more or less when General Milosevic assumed the post of

12     corps commander, around that time.

13        Q.   And to the best of your recollection, would that have been around

14     August or some other time?

15        A.   I really couldn't confirm that now.

16        Q.   Was it later in 1994 or was it earlier?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I have to object.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness apparently remembers that it was around

20     the moment that General Milosevic assumed the post of corps commander.

21     Could the parties not agree on when that was?

22             MR. SHIN:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems not to be a matter which creates great

24     dispute.

25             Please proceed.

Page 21187

 1             MR. SHIN:  Yes, and I don't need to do this with the witness.  So

 2     I'll just simply ask:

 3        Q.   Mr. Trapara, are you aware that the agreement on the withdrawal

 4     of heavy weapons was made in February of 1994?

 5        A.   I don't remember the exact date.  I know that it was in 1994, in

 6     the first half of 1994.  I can't remember the exact date.  It's been a

 7     long time since then.

 8        Q.   Well, we can check later to see when it was that

 9     General Milosevic took his post since you've specified that at least.

10             I'd like to move to another area and this relates to your

11     statement where you talk about several locations and geographical

12     features.

13             MR. SHIN:  And for Your Honours, that's paragraph 6.

14        Q.   You mentioned Stupsko Brdo.  That's not in your zone of

15     responsibility, is it?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   You mention Zuc, that's not in your area of responsibility?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Nor are these other places that you've listed there as being

20     under BH army control, and these include Hum, Cordon, Colina Kapa,

21     Bistrik, Kula, Sokolje, none of those are in your area of responsibility?

22        A.   They didn't have to be in my area of responsibility, but

23     everybody knew that the B&H army was at those locations.

24        Q.   Now in your Dragomir Milosevic testimony you were asked this

25     question:

Page 21188

 1             "Some of the inner hills, the ones closer to the city, were held

 2     by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but as you go back further away

 3     from the town you get to hills that were held by the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska; isn't that correct?"

 5             And your answer was:

 6             "To the depths of the territory, yes."

 7             You stand by that; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, there was also some discussion in that case about the

10     positioning of various elevations, particularly with regards to

11     Debelo Brdo and an elevation known as Grad.  Now, I'm not going to get

12     into that with you now but I'll just put this question to you:  There are

13     indirect and direct means of fire; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And indirect means of fire, as the phrase would indicate, does

16     not require a direct line of sight?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And now finally my last question to you, Mr. Trapara:  Are you

19     aware of any military prosecutions, administrative discipline, inquiries,

20     investigations, or similar into allegations that soldiers of the

21     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps committed war crimes during the period when you

22     were a member of the 2nd Battalion?

23        A.   Specifically for my unit, no, but as for that section of the

24     corps that you are talking about, war crimes were committed by people who

25     were not members of any military formation.  They were -- I don't even

Page 21189

 1     know what I could call them.  They were so-called free shooters.  They

 2     did not belong to any military command and they didn't have any military

 3     honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Trapara, my question was specifically about the soldiers of

 5     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, not about people who were not part of the

 6     army.

 7        A.   I don't think any war crimes happened in our sector.

 8             MR. SHIN:  No further questions, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Shin.

10             One additional question, Mr. Trapara.  You told us that crimes

11     were committed by those who were not members of the army.  Could you tell

12     us something about that?  What crimes do you remember were committed and

13     by whom were they committed?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would not like to mention

15     specific names now because all these young men have been tried and

16     convicted by the BH court.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then nevertheless I would like you to tell us the

18     names of those that come to your mind at this moment.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I feel very awkward

20     should I mention the names now, but we all know their names.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well this Court does not; that's the reason why I'm

22     asking.  If you would prefer to go into private session, that's okay as

23     far as I'm concerned.  But would you like to answer the question in

24     private session and then we move into private session?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you insist, I can give you one

Page 21190

 1     name.  I can't remember any more.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You know of one name only, one person only, of what

 3     you called free shooters?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Who was it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are we in private session?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  If you want us to turn into private session, we

 8     move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

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Page 21191











11  Page 21191 redacted.  Private session.















Page 21192

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

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14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             Mr. Shin.

25             MR. SHIN:  I'm sorry, I wanted to catch us before we left private

Page 21193

 1     session.  There is a correction in a name and perhaps we can do that now

 2     or towards the end, whenever is more convenient.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's do it at the end.

 4             MR. SHIN:  We would still need the witness for that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's fine.

 6             Mr. Lukic, how much time would you need for re-examination?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  In between 10 to 15 minutes, maybe 10.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you could -- if you would do it in 10 and then we

 9     would hear from Mr. Shin, because then we are just a little bit over the

10     one hour.  But if you would re-examine the witness now.

11             You'll be re-examined, Mr. Trapara, by Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I would like to have P672 in the e-court.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember, Mr. Trapara, that you were

15     asked about this document?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you have any direct knowledge that this document was really

18     acted upon?  In other words, were snipers really distributed in reality

19     and do you know to whom?

20        A.   I did not know and I still don't know today to whom exactly the

21     snipers were distributed, I mean I didn't know until the moment when I

22     saw it in another document a moment ago.

23        Q.   Considering the position of your unit, could you describe it more

24     precisely?  What were you able to see of the positions on enemy

25     territory?

Page 21194

 1        A.   From our positions, we were able to see only two rows of houses

 2     from the Mojmilo hill, down the slope towards us.  And the BH Army had

 3     positions inside those houses, they had trenches outside, et cetera.

 4        Q.   Could you explain why that is so?

 5        A.   On that map the Prosecutor showed a moment ago there were three

 6     main features, Bogusevac 860 metres altitude and the two other features,

 7     all these three dominant features were held by the Muslim side.

 8        Q.   The depth of the territory held by the Muslim side was behind the

 9     hills; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now I would like to see P2050 again.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When waiting for it to come up, Mr. Lukic, I was a

13     bit confused by your question about whether it really happened, what we

14     saw in that document, because the document apparently describes what was

15     done, not what was intended to be done but what was done.  So therefore I

16     was a bit confused by your question.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I was just checking with the witness if he has any

18     knowledge.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] In today's transcript, you don't have to bother

23     about it, I'll read it out to you, on page 64, lines 7 through 13, my

24     colleague Mr. Shin from the Prosecution put to you that in a previous

25     trial the suggestion was made to you that the highest levels obstructed

Page 21195

 1     the passage of convoys, and in response you confirmed that's what's

 2     written in the document.  I want to ask you once again:  Did it ever

 3     happen on the ground controlled by your unit that a convoy was not

 4     allowed through?

 5        A.   No, it didn't happen.  Maybe also because this order was in place

 6     although I didn't know about it.  Maybe I even violated some orders that

 7     I was not aware of, but I let every convoy pass without exception.

 8        Q.   There was one convoy in which the military police found seven

 9     rifles.

10        A.   That's correct.  That was at the intersection in Lukavica by the

11     local commune building.

12        Q.   Was that convoy allowed through after the rifles were removed?

13        A.   I don't know how the corps military police got intelligence about

14     these rifles.  I was at an observation point just watching this incident,

15     and the convoy carrying flour continued to Grbavica.  So the rifles were

16     removed and the convoy went on its way after detailed inspection, that's

17     true.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trapara.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  We have

20     nothing further.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

22             If there was -- do you have --

23             MR. SHIN:  No, nothing further from me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- any other questions apart from the one you had.

25             MR. SHIN:  Yeah, just the one correction.

Page 21196

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can we -- we have to deal with it in private

 2     session?

 3             MR. SHIN:  Yes, because it arises from a portion of the private

 4     session testimony.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will briefly move for what will be the last

 6     question, Mr. Trapara, into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             Mr. Trapara, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I

25     would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and

Page 21197

 1     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

 2     and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.  You may

 3     follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter to

 7     2.00 and then we have another half-hour to start the testimony of the

 8     next witness, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 1.25 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

12             Mr. Ivetic, I -- yes.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             Mr. Ivetic, I see that you're present.  There is an issue the

16     Chamber would like to discuss with the parties, but we prefer not to have

17     the witness wait now for half an hour then to find out that we have not

18     started his examination, but tomorrow we'll certainly find time to deal

19     with the matter.

20             I don't know to what extent it has already been discussed with

21     the Prosecution what this topic is we would like to discuss in private

22     session; if not, you'll be informed about it.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Skrba, I presume.  Before you

25     give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  May

Page 21198

 1     I invite you to do so.  The text is handed out to you by the usher.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I solemnly declare that

 3     I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  DUSAN SKRBA

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Skrba.  Please be seated.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

 9     find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

10             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

11                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Skrba.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14        Q.   For the record, could you please state your name and surname

15     slowly.

16        A.   My name is Dusan Skrba.

17        Q.   Could you please tell the Court whether you gave Mr. Mladic's

18     Defence team a statement pertaining to the questions that we had put to

19     you?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

22     have the following document in e-court:  65 ter 1D01610.  Also I would

23     like us to focus on the first page of that document.

24        Q.   Mr. Skrba, are these your personal details and is this your

25     signature?

Page 21199

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like us to have a look at the last page of

 3     this document.  It has a total of six pages and in the lower right-hand

 4     corner there is a signature.  Is that your signature, Mr. Skrba?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to put the following to you.  Today if

 7     I were to put the same questions to you like those contained in this

 8     statement, would you give the same answers now also after having made the

 9     solemn declaration?

10        A.   Yes, 99 per cent to the best of my knowledge and recollection.

11        Q.   Would your answers contain the truth concerning these events?

12        A.   It would always be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

13     the truth as best I can relate it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

16     tender Mr. Dusan Skrba's statement into evidence, 1D01610, that is its

17     65 ter number.

18             MR. SHIN:  No objections.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Skrba, may I take it that you recently had an

20     opportunity to review what is written down as your statement?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1610 receives number D463,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D463 is admitted into evidence.

Page 21200

 1             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, also I would like

 3     to suggest that along with the witness's statement another document be

 4     admitted, 1D02039, that's its 65 ter number.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's one out of the two associated exhibits

 6     announced.

 7             Any objection against this associated exhibit?

 8             MR. SHIN:  If that's the one -- I believe that's the one ending

 9     with the 39 number, no objections.  Just a question about the

10     practicality of being able to see what's depicted there.  I'm not sure if

11     there's a way of making that more visible, since it's a rather large map,

12     as it comes up on e-court.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any practical solution for that?  Is

14     it --

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we cannot do more

16     than this.  We did our best.  In P3 this document is contained as taken

17     from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and as transmitted to this collection by

18     the OTP.  So objectively speaking we were not in a position to improve

19     this in any way.  If the OTP has some technical capacity to improve this

20     further, we would gratefully accept that.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page in the court binder of P3?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, I haven't got P3

23     with me, but already by tomorrow I could provide you with the relevant

24     page number.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and otherwise we have to rely on the old

Page 21201

 1     magnifying glass which will assist us in this era of -- Madam Registrar,

 2     the number would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2039 receives number D464,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  I wanted to refer to

 6     the era of the electronics.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] By your leave, Your Honour, I

 9     would like to read the summary of Dusan Skrba's statement that has been

10     admitted into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I take it that it's even shorter than the

12     summary of the previous witness.  I would say 65 ter summaries sometimes

13     assist.  Please proceed.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Dusan Skrba, a witness, was born

15     in 1949 in the municipality of Ilidza near Sarajevo.  Before the war

16     broke out he lived and worked in Sarajevo.  During his military service,

17     he graduated from the reserve officers' school, artillery.  From the 5th

18     of March, 1992, when he was mobilised as a reserve officer of the JNA, he

19     remained involved in the military practically up until the end of the

20     war.  When the 1st Romanija Brigade was established, he was appointed

21     commander of the mixed artillery battalion.  His unit was deployed

22     practically on the southern outskirts of Sarajevo and it supported the

23     infantry units at the front line.

24             MR. SHIN:  Sorry, the witness appears to be having difficulties

25     with something in his system, the computer system I mean.

Page 21202

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know -- are there any difficulties you are

 2     experiencing in this --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say when -- that

 4     this happened when the 1st Sarajevo Brigade was formed and that's where I

 5     served and that's where I defended my people.  That was the first one

 6     that came into existence when the JNA left.  It wasn't the

 7     Romanija Brigade.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Skrba, apparently it has not been explained to

 9     you properly what the purpose of this exercise is.  Since you are not

10     telling us everything viva voce, we know what is in your statement.  Now,

11     the public who is following these proceedings are not aware of what is in

12     your statement, so therefore it's just a summary, it's just a short

13     outline of what is to be found in your statement.  It's not evidence.

14     You don't have to comment on it.  We will focus on your statement.

15             Mr. Stojanovic, again you come with all kind of details which are

16     totally irrelevant for the purpose.  The purpose exclusively is to inform

17     the public about what is approximately in the statement and where the

18     witness was born and at what time, et cetera, that's all totally

19     irrelevant.  So therefore why not next time use your 65 ter summary and

20     leave it as short as that.  If you would agree with that, I would read

21     the 65 ter summary, unless you have it, so that we do not lose ourselves

22     in details irrelevant for the purpose.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.  I'm

24     going to shorten this and it's going to be very succinct, succinctly what

25     the witness said.

Page 21203

 1             The witness testified saying that he received orders only from

 2     the command of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade and it never happened that anyone

 3     went beyond the chain of command and control and he never received direct

 4     orders from General Mladic.  The witness said that throughout the war

 5     there was a team of UNPROFOR monitors along the positions of his unit

 6     throughout the war.  They slept there and they were aware of each and

 7     every move made by this artillery unit.  The artillery piece operators

 8     could only approach artillery pieces on the basis of his order.  If

 9     artillery fire were opened, then he'd have to inform the UN observers and

10     show them the positions that were attacked by BiH army forces.  After

11     opening fire he was duty-bound to submit reports on the spot to members

12     of the observer mission of the UN.

13             This witness and all members of his unit never had any intention

14     to cause civilian casualties or terrorise the civilians in any way.  This

15     witness confirms that throughout the war he never received any order,

16     orally or in writing, to attack public transportation vehicles in the

17     part of town that was under the control of the Muslim authorities.  On

18     the contrary, there was a standing order stating that fire should not be

19     opened at civilian targets in the city.  99 per cent of all members of

20     his unit were inhabitants of Sarajevo.  These were -- they were literally

21     the people's army, they were defending their homes.

22             Also, the witness is aware of the fact that within the positions

23     of his units within that area on the southern outskirts of Sarajevo on

24     the 28th of August 1995 when the tragedy at Markale took place, and it is

25     marked as G18 in the indictment, there were no mortars of

Page 21204

 1     120-millimetres.  The witness claims that mortars of 120-millimetre

 2     calibre and above were moved out of Sarajevo, out of a diameter of 20

 3     kilometres.  The witness very directly states that in the area of

 4     Miljevici also on the road near the village of Studankovici [phoen]

 5     towards the tower at Trebevic there was not a firing position for a

 6     120-millimetre mortar.

 7             Your Honours, this would be a brief summary of the witness's

 8     statement and with your permission I would like to put a few questions to

 9     the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You may do so.  For the coming witnesses, unless you

11     have pointed at exceptional circumstances, the summary should be limited

12     to not than 35 lines in the transcript.  That is a little bit over one

13     page of 25 lines.  That's your guidance for the days to come.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Skrba, we who are not soldiers, especially not artillerymen,

17     could you please give us an explanation as to what a mixed artillery

18     battalion is?

19        A.   A mixed artillery battalion consists of several different

20     artillery pieces of different calibres, and let me say it is

21     120-millimetre mortars, howitzers, VBRs, and the rest that was available

22     in my area of responsibility.

23        Q.   Tell the Court specifically, during the war which weapons and

24     artillery pieces did your mixed artillery battalion have?

25        A.   My unit had three batteries of howitzers, D-30, 120-millimetres,

Page 21205

 1     four pieces respectively; also a battery of VBRs, Plamen 1 with four

 2     pieces; and two mortar batteries of 120-millimetres, M-75, 12 pieces.

 3        Q.   I would just like for you to repeat something for me.  What is

 4     the area that your mixed artillery battalion defended throughout this

 5     front line area?

 6        A.   It was a very long front line.  We had two rings because we had

 7     this double encirclement.  The front part of the front line when we are

 8     facing the city, that was from Zlatiste, Kozlja Cupula [phoen], Kovaci,

 9     all the way down the Miljacka river, Dobrinja, Mojmilo, to the back side

10     of the Zeljeznica river-bed.  We called this area Stari Krtelj [phoen],

11     and behind us there was Mount Igman, Trnovo, Jahorina, and the rest.

12        Q.   My colleague has warned me that the last part of your answer was

13     not in the transcript and that is the position that you mentioned behind

14     you or in this outer ring, as you say?

15        A.   In -- mostly so far the questions had to do with Sarajevo and

16     civilian structures, and so we're talking Zlatiste, Kozlja Cupula, Kovac,

17     along the Miljacka river via Mojmilo, Dobrinja, and then it ended with

18     the Zeljeznica river-bed.  That was the inner ring.  All the questions so

19     far referred to this inner area exclusively.  As for the outer area where

20     we had considerable casualties is something that nobody really put any

21     questions to me about.

22        Q.   Could you please give us those positions of the Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina army that were behind your positions to the south from where

24     you were exposed to artillery and other types of fire.

25        A.   Until the action Lukavac 93, we had a lot of casualties from our

Page 21206

 1     back, where the positions of the B&H army were:  Igman, Treskavica,

 2     Rogovi, Crna Rijeka, and others.  And this is something that we were free

 3     of only after the Lukavac 93 action was executed.

 4        Q.   In order for this to be a bit more clear to us, can we look at

 5     document 1D02040 in e-court, please.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for the

 7     usher's assistance here.

 8        Q.   And also for you to assist us, please.  Could the usher please

 9     help you mark the positions that I will ask you to mark.

10             Mr. Skrba, please don't mark anything yet.  We need to do that

11     step by step together with the transcript.  So could you please mark

12     where the command of the 1st Artillery Division was.  Perhaps if you need

13     to zoom in on to the southern sector.

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in on that section

16     a little bit more.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you are aware that once we have

18     zoomed in, we can't zoom out any further.  So if we zoom in --

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's clear.  I think that

20     we can zoom in once and then -- yes, that's correct, Your Honour, that

21     would be then the spot from which we will not be needing any more

22     enlargement.

23        Q.   Witness, can you find your way around on this map then?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Which part you would focus on?  Because it's --

25     everything is now in the middle.  If you would --

Page 21207

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness

 2     to mark the place where the command of the mixed artillery division was.

 3     Could he please mark that with a circle.

 4        Q.   For the transcript, could you please tell the Trial Chamber the

 5     name of this area that you marked.

 6        A.   This place was called Ujzojnice [phoen].

 7        Q.   And are you able to tell the Trial Chamber which of the pieces

 8     that you mentioned that were part of the mixed artillery division were

 9     situated near the command post of the mixed artillery division?

10        A.   All the pieces that I mentioned, all the batteries were in an

11     area surrounding that spot some 300 metres.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We will now be dealing with the matter of

13     120-millimetre mortars.  So I would like to ask you first to mark with a

14     circle the places where --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you first invite the witness to put letters to

16     this first circle so that we later do know what is which circle.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Of

18     course I can do that.  I actually meant to do that later.

19        Q.   Sir, could you please indicate -- could you put the letters KMAD

20     next to this circle.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the witness now has written different letters

24     there.  Could the usher assist in removing the text and then could you

25     please clearly instruct what letters to write but we'll first remove the

Page 21208

 1     ones we have now.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Skrba, once again could you please place the following

 4     letters next to the circle, K, komanda, MAD, mixed artillery division.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   And thank you for your help.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you permit me, Your Honour, I

 8     would now like to ask the witness to mark the spots where he remembers

 9     the 120-millimetre mortar batteries were located.

10        A.   Should I mark those spots?

11        Q.   Yes, please.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And could you please place the letters MB-120 next to those two

14     circles.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And then I will finish my questioning today with just this

17     question:  How far were the 120-millimetre mortars from the command of

18     the mixed artillery division where you were located?

19        A.   250 metres as the crow flies.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

22     stop with my examination of the witness today and I would need 20 more

23     minutes to finish my examination of this witness.  And also could we save

24     this image because we will be using the document again and I would like

25     to also tender this document.

Page 21209

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar -- now, all the markings seems to

 2     have been gone.  They are saved.  Under what number?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2040 as marked by the witness receives

 4     number D465, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And would you -- do you intend to ask the witness to

 6     make further markings on it?  Then we'll just mark it for identification

 7     and we'll start tomorrow with it so that we have a full picture at the

 8     end.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [No interpretation]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Madam Registrar, it will be marked for

11     identification under this number.

12             Mr. Skrba, we'll adjourn for the day and I would like to instruct

13     you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with

14     whomever about your testimony, that is, your testimony given today or

15     testimony still to be given tomorrow.  Would you please keep that in

16     mind.  And then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.

17     And I suggest to the parties that we will finish the

18     examination-in-chief, then deal with the matter I indicated before, and

19     that then most likely after the first break the witness will be

20     cross-examined.

21             You may follow the usher.  We would like to see you back tomorrow

22     morning.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

25     Wednesday, the 21st of May, at 9.30 in the morning in this same

Page 21210

 1     courtroom, I.

 2                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

 3                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

 4                           May, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.