Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21390

 1                           Friday, 23 May 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is the case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             It was announced that the Prosecution wanted to raise a

12     preliminary issue -- Defence wanted to raise a preliminary issue.  I

13     apologise.

14             You are equal for me, Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for that, Your Honour.

16             I just actually spoke with my learned friends from the opposite

17     side, and we agreed, I think, that if there is a large document envisaged

18     to be used during the cross-examination, that they would mark the page so

19     we do not have to print, like, 500 pages document, and we are actually

20     both willing to save some trees.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.  And the trees will appreciate

22     it as well, I take it.

23             MR. LUKIC:  So that's all we had.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that sounds very reasonable and very

25     practical.

Page 21391

 1             MR. GROOME:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I agree, it is

 2     reasonable, and I have already sent an instruction to the team.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's great.

 4             Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Mr. President, I've advised the Defence in advance

 8     that after reviewing the transcript from yesterday, there's going to be

 9     no further cross-examination.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No further cross-examination.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13                           WITNESS:  BRANKO RADAN [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Radan.  I would like to remind you that

18     you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the

19     beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole

20     truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             The Chamber was informed by the Prosecution that they have no

22     further questions for you in cross-examination.  However, Judge Moloto

23     has a further question for you.

24                           Questioned by the Court:

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Good morning, Mr. Radan.

Page 21392

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes at page 35, line 23, of the transcript, you

 3     answered the question about the population of your area at the time.  You

 4     said:

 5             "Well, earlier we were not divided and there were no divisions by

 6     where people lived, but we are talking about a majority.  A majority of

 7     Serbian population lived there.  Most of the people were Serbs, but

 8     previously nobody paid attention to that."

 9             Do you remember that piece of evidence?

10        A.   Yes, I remember that.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Now, you are -- in your statement, you

12     stated that:  According to the population census of 1991, Novo Sarajevo

13     municipality had a total of 95.089 inhabitants, of whom 35 per cent were

14     Muslim, 35 per cent Serbs, and 9 per cent Croats, 15 per cent Yugoslavs,

15     and 4 per cent others.

16             Surely according to this statement, Serbs were not in the

17     majority.  Would you agree?

18        A.   In the entire municipality, according to the census, they were

19     not a majority, but there were quite a few of those who were not one or

20     the other or the third.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not the point.  The point is -- the Serbs

22     were not in the majority.

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That is the correct position, not what you told us

25     yesterday.

Page 21393

 1        A.   Yesterday I spoke about the territory that was under the control

 2     after the beginning of the war, under our control; that's what I'm

 3     saying.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  We were talking about Novo Sarajevo

 5     municipality.  But, anyway, thank you so much.  I just wanted to get that

 6     point clear.  Thank you so much.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one question for you as well.

 9             In paragraph 21 of your statement, you say:

10             "At the beginning of the war, most of the victims were killed by

11     sniper fire from the Muslim side," and then you explained that every

12     single day, from early morning until dusk, snipers fired from

13     Debelo Brdo, the Executive Council building, the, as you corrected it,

14     the Bristol Hotel, and so on.

15             If you are talking about the beginning of the war, what period of

16     time do you have exactly in mind?

17        A.   The beginning from the war is from the 4th of the April, 1992.

18     That is to say, in that period all the way up until the end of the war,

19     there was sniper fire coming from those positions that I mentioned.  It

20     was aimed at the territory of Grbavica and Vrace.  That is to say, the

21     urban areas.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since you used the language "at the beginning

23     of the war," I understood that this may have changed during the war.  Or

24     were, during the whole of the war, most of the victims killed by sniper

25     fire from the Muslim side?  And if not, up until what moment were most

Page 21394

 1     victims killed by sniper fire from the Muslim side?  I'm trying to get a

 2     better idea of the time.

 3        A.   Combat activities took place practically every day.  Whereas

 4     sniper activity was sporadic, and that was a response to certain

 5     individual situations.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not -- you're telling apparently things you want

 7     to tell me but you seem not to be very inclined to answer my questions.

 8             You said:

 9             "At the beginning of the war, most of the victims were killed by

10     sniper fire from the Muslim side."

11             Now let me first try to understand that.

12             Do you mean that more victims were killed by sniper fire from the

13     Muslim side than victims were killed by sniper fire from the Serb side?

14     Or are you comparing victims of sniper fire, victims of Muslim sniping

15     fire, against all victims of war, among the Muslims apparently killed by

16     Serb fire?  What exactly are you telling us here?

17        A.   In order to give you an accurate answer, I would need to

18     elaborate at length.  It could not have been systematised in terms of

19     months, let alone days.  So that is to say that all of this was caused by

20     the situation itself on the ground.  That is to say, it was impossible to

21     say when there was more of what and so on and so forth.  Special records

22     were kept by those who were keeping records of fatalities, the wounded

23     and so on.  All of this information was not accessible to me every day.

24     These records were kept by the civilian police, the hospitals, the

25     funeral parlours, and so on, so they kept these records.

Page 21395

 1             However, in order for me to give you a complete answer that I

 2     wish, I'm not in a position to give it now.  It could not have been

 3     systematised in the following way.  For example, to say during the first

 4     month, this was the number of sniper victims from the sniper fire coming

 5     from the Muslim side.  We don't even have figures about the other side,

 6     and the fighting was intensified as the situation developed.  And from

 7     the beginning of May, from Dobrovoljacka onwards, fighting was

 8     intensified on all sides.  That is to say, we were Grbavica.  Grbavica

 9     was surrounded on three sides; that is to say, from Debelo Brdo -- yes?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there for a second.

11             First of all, I'm re-reading again now the first line.  In order

12     to understand what it means.  It says:

13             "At the beginning of the war, most of the victims were killed by

14     sniper fire from the Muslim side."

15             Now, that can be understood in two different ways.  The one is

16     most of the victims of snipers were killed by Muslim snipers.  Or, and

17     that's another way of understanding this sentence, at the beginning of

18     the war, most of the victims, overall victims, were killed by sniper fire

19     from the Muslim side.  So there the emphasise on whether it was sniper

20     fire or any other fire, that's a way of understanding it.  Whereas the

21     first way of understanding this language would be more people killed by

22     sniper fire by the Muslims than people were killed by sniper fire from

23     the Serbs.

24             Now, which of the two are you referring to here?

25        A.   If we focus on this statement, "in the beginning of the war,"

Page 21396

 1     then, if we exclude the incident in Dobrovoljacka, the beginning of the

 2     war, if we exclude that, then we could say that there were more victims

 3     from sniper fire in the beginning of the war.  That is to say, from the

 4     Muslim side.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's still unclear.  Do you intend to say more

 6     people were killed by sniper fire than by shelling, by, whatever, other

 7     cause of death.  Is that what you want to say?  Or do you want to say

 8     there were more victims by sniper fire fired by Muslims than there were

 9     victims from sniper fire fired by Serbs?

10             Which of the two is -- what do you tell us in this sentence?

11     What are you comparing?

12        A.   I cannot give you a comparison as to how many casualties there

13     were on the Muslim side.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say "most of the victims were killed by,"

15     that is already a comparison.  That is more yes than no.

16             Now, more yes what than --

17        A.   I'm sorry.  This is a comparison only on our side.  That is the

18     information we had available.  How many victims there were, how many

19     people were killed in combat, and how many were killed by sniper fire.

20     So this was just on our side.  It was impossible to carry out any kind of

21     comparing with the other side.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That clarifies a rather unclear sentence.  So

23     what you're telling us is that more people died from sniper fire than

24     from combat or shelling or whatever other violence of war.  It was sniper

25     fire that caused most victims.  And you can't compare that with what

Page 21397

 1     happened on the other side, whether there were more victims of sniper

 2     fire than shelling or more victims from shelling, or how many at all, you

 3     wouldn't know.  That clarifies the matter considerably for me.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Follow-up question to this issue.

 7             You just said -- a minute ago you told us that you base your

 8     information on the reports which were filed, the -- the records of your

 9     municipality from the hospitals, and so on.  Is that the -- the source of

10     information, or do you base it on your own observation?

11        A.   Only on the basis of relevant records.  My observations cannot

12     cover the entire territory.  So all of this was summed up from one period

13     to another.  It was either on a weekly basis or reports submitted to the

14     Assembly, so these were just -- this was just relevant information that

15     was collected from the police, from funeral parlours and so on.  So only

16     from these relevant sources, not based on my observations.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And these reports and written information, was

18     that related only to Novo Sarajevo, to your municipality, or did you

19     receive information also from other parts of the entire region?

20        A.   It was summed up at the level of the entire republic.  I just had

21     information in the territory of the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you say "the entire republic," do you refer to

23     the Republika Srpska?

24        A.   Yes, Republika Srpska.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 21398

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one follow-up question.

 2             If you're talking about medical records and I'll be transparent,

 3     I've seen a few in my life, especially over the last ten years but also

 4     in this case.  Often medical records say:  Killed by a bullet.  Vulnus

 5     sclopetarium or something like that.  It comes immediately in Latin to my

 6     mind.  How can you say that that is then someone killed by a sniper?  I

 7     mean, what's the -- how could you draw any such conclusions on the basis

 8     of such medical records?

 9        A.   With all due respect for your assertion, I was never in a

10     position to see that kind of very succinct report just saying:  Killed by

11     a bullet.  Usually there's a description when and where this happened,

12     whether somebody was just a passer-by was killed by sniper or whether

13     somebody was killed in combat and so on.  But not just killed by a

14     bullet.  I was not in a position to see a report like that.  This was

15     done by serious people who knew why they were doing this, and they

16     realised that these records were being collected that would be relevant

17     for the families involved and also later for those dealing with war

18     victims and so on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I was mainly referring to the strict medical

20     reports.  That is, what the doctor says when a body is brought in, into

21     the hospital.  But even if you have a broader report, is it -- I've heard

22     often that people may have been killed by a stray bullet or by -- or that

23     there was a military target nearby.  How can you be so sure on the basis

24     of those reports that the fire was sniper fire?

25        A.   I did not go into that.  I was not the one who would say whether

Page 21399

 1     the report was right or not.  So those who wrote reports took an oath, as

 2     persons in the field of medicine, so they should write up everything they

 3     know.  A stray bullet can also be identified as a bullet coming from a

 4     sniper or in combat.  I just had an opportunity to see things stated that

 5     had actually happened and what the cause of death was, and so on.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say it depends in every individual case on

 7     the circumstances whether or not you can determine whether it was a

 8     bullet fired by a sniper or whether it was a bullet fired by any other

 9     combatant or person?

10        A.   Yes, precisely.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now one additional question to that.

14             How can a medical doctor in his report establish the ethnicity of

15     the sniper?

16        A.   Well, it wasn't only medical doctors who were on this commission

17     that kept the records.  The doctor would not be the one who would assess

18     the bullet and so on and so forth.  This is being handed over to those

19     who are professionals, who can establish the calibre of the ammunition

20     involved, and at that time people knew who had what kind of ammunition,

21     so this was the source on the basis of which it could be established with

22     approximate accuracy whose bullet this was and where it had come from.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At that point in time, at the beginning of the

24     war, was it possible to distinguish by the ammunition from which side,

25     from the Serb side or the Muslim side, the bullet was fired?  Did they

Page 21400

 1     really have different ammunition at that time?

 2        A.   Well, not fully.  Not 100 per cent.  But it was known where these

 3     positions were from which fire had been coming.  Professionals could

 4     establish this approximately, what the origin of the ammunition was and

 5     where it might have come from.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any need for further questions?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  I will have to go

 9     through some documents the Prosecution used yesterday.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please do so.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radan.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   We're not going to take very long today.  You'll be free to go

15     soon.  I'm just going to ask you briefly about what the Judges had asked

16     you about.

17             Did you go into details of investigations or did you just take

18     what other services had already established without any additional

19     verification?

20        A.   I fully trusted those who compiled those reports.  I'm not the

21     one who appointed them.  Somebody else was in charge of that and what was

22     taken into account was that these should be professional people and that

23     they should work with full responsibility.  So I fully trusted their

24     reports without the right or obligation to double-check that.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 21401

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that we be

 2     shown in e-court P6524, a Prosecution Exhibit.

 3        Q.   I'm going to take it in the same order as the Prosecution did

 4     yesterday.  Of course, the documents that I will be using, that is.

 5             Do you see the document?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Are you able to read it without your glasses?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Well, I cannot.

10        A.   Well, my sight is preserved.

11        Q.   This is a document from the 5th of June, 1992.  It's a report on

12     the activities.  And, under item 3, it says accommodation of the

13     population and refugees are mentioned.  All refugees from the occupied

14     territory and people who were left homeless, accommodation was provided

15     for them.

16             Who are these refugees?  On the 5th of June, 1992.

17        A.   These were mostly refugees who managed, who managed to cross into

18     our territory from the territory that was under the control of the

19     so-called Bosnia and Herzegovina Army.  Armija.  So people from Sarajevo.

20        Q.   And what was the ethnicity of those people who are referred to as

21     refugees in this document?

22        A.   Mostly they were Serbs.  Serbs who were fleeing to our territory.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can I look at the next page, please,

24     where we're going to focus on paragraph (f).

25        Q.   This paragraph describes a shop under the control of the

Page 21402

 1     Crisis Staff where people can buy goods at prices set by the

 2     Executive Board.  Could anybody buy goods in this shop, regardless of

 3     their ethnicity?

 4        A.   We did not discriminate or divide people along ethnic lines.  We

 5     didn't do that anywhere, and we did not do that here either.  Nobody

 6     asked any questions of people who came to buy goods.  The shop was under

 7     the control of the Crisis Staff and the Executive Board because, at that

 8     time, we did not have any company that could engage in such trade.  So

 9     there was no division.  We didn't discriminate among people in this shop

10     or anywhere else.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page,

13     please, where we will look at paragraph 6 -- item 6.

14        Q.   The paragraph says that frequently -- citizens of all

15     nationalities assemble frequently, especially in Grbavica and our public

16     attitude is very correct.  We appoint a head of every building.

17             Did you know how often were these meeting held?  If you know, if

18     you don't --

19        A.   These meetings were not scheduled at certain times.  They would

20     just be held as needed, and the main goal was not to alarm the

21     population, to calm the population.  And if you permit me, I'm also going

22     to say that at the beginning or shortly before the war broke out, we had

23     barbecue barricades in response to the other barricades.  And we called

24     our citizens of other ethnic groups to socialise so that we can break

25     down this fear, these stereotypes, and this was something filmed by

Page 21403

 1     different TV stations, federal ones, our TV stations, and it was

 2     broadcast.

 3        Q.   Excuse me.  In the same paragraph, and there's a sentence that

 4     the Prosecution put a question to you about, and said:

 5             "Secretly the police applied the usual procedure towards people

 6     who were engaged in military activities against us."

 7             First, let me ask you this:  Did you take part in any way in the

 8     police procedures relating to people engaged in military activities

 9     evidently here against us, meaning against the Serbian side?

10        A.   No, I never took part in any activities like that, but we had the

11     military police, the civilian police force.  We had a special commission

12     that looked into specific incidents.  These -- this data was summarised

13     for the purposes of defence and also in order to calm down the situation

14     in the field, on the ground.

15        Q.   And then in the next sentence you say -- actually, the document

16     states:

17             "We informed the Muslims that they would be safe if they were

18     militarily neutral towards us, and so far the situation has been good."

19             Could you please tell us how you informed the Muslims that they

20     would be safe?  Did you send them a message?

21        A.   Well, the Muslims could feel that they were safe because they

22     were not separate in any way from Serbs and Croats.  There was no

23     discrimination.  They were equal in relation to pensions, humanitarian

24     aid, medical services, the central kitchens where milk was distributed

25     every day to all citizens who needed the milk.  They could not feel in

Page 21404

 1     any way that they were being discriminated against in relation to Serbs

 2     or anyone else.  Thus, this was our way of showing that all citizens were

 3     the same to us and that the authorities that I was a part of were

 4     behaving in a legal manner.

 5        Q.   The next sentence towards the end of the document says:

 6             "We visited the nunnery in Gornji Kovacici."

 7             These nuns, what ethnic group did they belong to?

 8        A.   These were Catholic nuns.  They had everything they needed.

 9     Local Serbs, their neighbours, took care of them.  At one time, because

10     they were shelling on the other side, they said that they wanted to pull

11     back from that place, but I personally went and asked them that, if they

12     wanted to, we could relocate them but that they should remain on our

13     territory.  That time they did stay, but then later they didn't feel safe

14     anymore and so they moved to a different location.  And with the

15     co-operation of Colonel Zarkovic, they crossed to the other side and went

16     to Kiseljak.  This is what I know about that.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, it does appear your question was not

18     answered.  You asked about ethnicity; you were told about the region.

19             MR. LUKIC:  In Balkans it is very often mixed, but I will repeat

20     my question.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Radan, could you please answer.

22        A.   They were Croats.  Croats.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Throughout the war, in the Novo Sarajevo

24     municipality, in Grbavica, that was under Serb control, did any Muslims

25     remain there throughout the entire war?

Page 21405

 1        A.   Yes.  According to our records, there was about 1.350 to 1.450 or

 2     1.500 who -- Muslims who were there at the end of the war.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we just briefly look at the next

 5     page in the same document.  We're going to look at paragraph 2.

 6        Q.   We see here on this page - we don't need to read everything - but

 7     there was a municipality by the president of the Presidency of

 8     Republika Srpska to form War Presidencies.  And then the document states

 9     that there was no need for that in the Novo Sarajevo municipality area.

10     But a Municipal Assembly is suggested, in turn, that it should be

11     established.  The Novo Sarajevo Municipal Assembly existed before the war

12     also; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So why was there a need for it to be formed again?

15        A.   Because of the division and polarisation, all the main municipal

16     infrastructure in Novo Sarajevo was on the other side, in the federal

17     part.  All the institutions, the Municipal Assembly were all on that

18     side.  And the things that we had at our disposal, we had about

19     25 councilmen who remained in that area, so there was an initiative to

20     form the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, Serb Novo Sarajevo, again, and we

21     assembled all the councilmen who were in our territory, and we held a

22     founding Assembly session, and that, in turn, could elect all the other

23     structures of authority.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at P352 in e-court,

Page 21406

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we leave this document.  A few minutes ago

 3     you told us that you informed the Muslims in your area that everything

 4     is -- is okay and there was no discrimination and everybody was prepared

 5     to stay.

 6             Now you're saying the Municipal Assembly had to be constituted

 7     consisting of the Serb municipal -- Municipal Assembly because of all the

 8     divisions.  Are you able to distinguish exactly at what stage this took

 9     place, if -- I don't see why there should be a -- a Serb-only Municipal

10     Assembly if relations were as good as you explained them.

11             Can you just clarify that little apparent inconsistency.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, it was not the desire

13     of the Serb population to undergo divisions.  It was not at our

14     initiative.  The divisions - I don't want to go back to dates now and

15     when the war broke out - but the division and the name of the

16     Novo Sarajevo Serb municipality is a legal heritage.  In order for us to

17     be legal, to have legal status, we had to form our own municipality.

18     This was a conclusion of the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of

19     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So that is the basis on which we formed it.

20             The municipality councilmen were all Serbs because no Muslim or

21     Croat councilmen happened to be on our territory.  Had they remained on

22     our territory, we would have co-opted them into this Serbian municipality

23     of Novo Sarajevo.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question wasn't answered.  Anyway --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, have you done with the document?

Page 21407

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I am.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would have a few questions in relation to the

 3     document.

 4             The document we were just discussing says something about food

 5     supplies.  That's the first page.  But before going to that, first,

 6     somewhere in the document "fighters" are mentioned.  Fighters.  Do I

 7     understand them to be fighters in the -- in your armed forces?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this point in time it was still

 9     the Territorial Defence.  The Army of Republika Srpska had not been

10     formed yet.  It was still the Territorial Defence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  22nd of June.  But my question was not whether it

12     was TO or VRS on the 22nd of June.  My question was whether it was your

13     armed forces, that is, Serb, whether TO or VRS, I'm not -- were these

14     Serb armed forces when you referred to "fighters"?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part.  For the most

16     part.  Almost 100 per cent.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, then, I take you back to the food

18     supplies.  Food will be supplied, there was a list of civilians, which --

19     and I'm talking about food supplies, that is under 2 (b) on the first

20     page of this document.  Lists of civilians were made, and food supplies

21     amounting to 50 per cent of peacetime supplies were distributed to those

22     on the lists.

23             Then it says:

24             "The basic criterion was to provide food for the families of

25     fighters and refugees from the occupied territory."

Page 21408

 1             Now, you've explained to us that "fighters" were Serb fighters.

 2     You earlier explained to us that "refugees" were Serbs which had fled

 3     occupied territory.  So they got food.  Others didn't get food.  At least

 4     it doesn't say anything about Muslims or -- it's just families of your

 5     own fighters and your refugees, they would get food, no one else.  Or at

 6     least that was not the criterion.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this same report,

 8     under 1, states that it was necessary to form local commune

 9     Crisis Staffs.  There were ten local communes in Novo Sarajevo

10     municipality, and there were local commune commissioners who were obliged

11     to make lists.  This was mostly a rural area.  They had to make lists of

12     families that needed assistance in this ratio as you mentioned.  But the

13     urban part, where Muslims and Croats lived, were also on the lists,

14     according to different areas of the local communes.  Nobody was excepted

15     from receiving this aid.  Everybody received what they were supposed to

16     receive.  Serb, Muslim, Croats --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     repeat the names of the communes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the names of the communes you

20     mentioned earlier.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As it says:  Lukavica -- 1,

22     Lukavica; 2, Tilava; Petrovici; Miljevici; Studenkovici; Kovacici,

23     Gornji Kovacici, Donji; Jewish cemetery; Grbavica 1; Grbavica 2; Vraca 1;

24     Vraca 2; Petrovacka Street.  These were all local communes that had to

25     keep records about those killed on the ground.  They were the ones who

Page 21409

 1     would report on the situations first and, among other things, it was

 2     their duty to deal with humanitarian aid, the fair distribution of

 3     humanitarian aid.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I put to you that what you're telling us is not in

 5     line with what we see in this document, and I'm focussing now on the

 6     paragraph on food, which says:  "Supplies were distributed to those on

 7     the lists," and who would be selected and what the criterion was, was a

 8     specific group.

 9             Now you are telling us that it was different than what is

10     described here.  Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I claim is what I've just

12     said.  I said what I know for a fact.  There was no discrimination at

13     all.  And in the last paragraph, when it says what the criterion was, was

14     to feed refugees from occupied areas.  They were mostly hailed from rural

15     areas.  Whereas the urban parts where Muslims and Croatians remained, I

16     claim that they received the same things that I received in Vrace, which

17     is also another urban part.  And I guarantee that that was so.  My

18     neighbours, both Croats and Muslims - and you can check that because they

19     are still alive, they are still there - they received the same rations as

20     I did.  They didn't receive a kilo more or less than the rest of us

21     received.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not what the document tells us, but you

23     say that is what happened in reality.  Is that how I have to understand

24     your -- because that leads me to my other question.  You said there was

25     no discrimination.  Muslims could not feel unsafe.  That's what you said.

Page 21410

 1     Due to the circumstances, there was no reason, I understand you to say,

 2     to feel unsafe.

 3             At the same time, you told us yesterday that part of the criminal

 4     activities - group of nine, including Batko - that they primarily

 5     targeted Muslims, and only after that, Serbs, and that no adequate action

 6     was taken in time.  That's one thing you told us.

 7             Yesterday you also told us that there was a kind of a spontaneous

 8     agreement of exchange, but it wasn't real exchange but one group is

 9     moving to one side, another group moving to the other side of the

10     confrontation lines; whereas, in documents, it is called "expulsion."  It

11     was reported in the Republika Srpska press as expulsion.

12             Therefore, I'm struggling.  I'm telling you to find out what

13     explains your almost idyllic picture you're giving us and the documentary

14     evidence which gives a different picture.  And I found -- find that now

15     again in relation to the food distribution, the food supplies, what I see

16     on paper, is different from what you're telling us.  So it's not only in

17     relation to the food supplies but on the various subjects that you are

18     giving a picture which is not the same as we find in these documents.

19             Do you have an explanation for these differences in perception

20     between you and those who were creating these press reports and these

21     documents?  Do you have an explanation for that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you will allow me, I tried to do

23     that yesterday as well, but I didn't have the time to explain things

24     properly.

25             When it comes to the freedom of movement, i.e.,

Page 21411

 1     non-discrimination, it was a war, so nobody could have been at ease, and

 2     that applied to Muslims, Croats and Serbs alike.  But the care was the

 3     same for all three ethnicities given the situation we were in.  It was a

 4     war, and according to the very definition of a war, nobody can feel at

 5     ease, nobody can feel relaxed.

 6             Second of all, regardless of this document, but this document

 7     doesn't say that Muslims and Croats didn't receive the same things as the

 8     Serbs, so even this document says that.

 9             Furthermore, you say that the media, the Serbian media, that is,

10     said that the -- that the Muslims had been expelled.  In the SRNA report

11     on the 1st of October, which was only one day later, it doesn't say

12     clearly.  They were just opinions, there was just a summary of all the

13     opinions of all of those who were interviewed about what they knew.  I

14     told you what I know and this is the most approximate description of the

15     situation that took place on the 30th September.  And I claim that

16     Muslims were not expelled on that day.

17             I had an occasion to see reports by the other side.  None of the

18     300 Muslims who -- were cited there said that they were ill-treated or

19     expelled by us, i.e., by the other side.  They provided those statements

20     on that same afternoon to some institutions, including UNPROFOR and the

21     Red Cross, and they never said that it was due to ill-treatment that they

22     crossed over or that they were expelled.

23             And as for the exchange that I spoke about, I said that it was a

24     gesture of good will and that Muslims were allowed to cross over as a

25     gesture of good will.  At the same time, on 15th of November, some 15 or

Page 21412

 1     20 buses were allowed to cross over to the territory of Republika Srpska.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  What you're doing at this moment is rather repeating

 3     what you said before rather than explaining the apparent difference in

 4     the perception of those who created reports and press messages and your

 5     personal experience.  I leave it to that.

 6             Mr. Lukic, I intervened when you said you had dealt with the

 7     document.  Any further questions for the witness?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, of course.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Not on this document, though.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, no --

12             MR. LUKIC:  It's the break time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We could take the break.  Could you give us an

14     estimate as to how much time you would need after the break.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Not if you continue helping me.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I mean time you use, not time I use.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Less than you use.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know what I have on my mind what time I

19     still want to use.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Probably 15 minutes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  15 minutes.  Okay, then we'll keep an eye on that.

22             We first take a break, but not until after the witness has been

23     escorted out of the courtroom.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

Page 21413

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, while we're waiting for the witness to

 4     come in, the Chamber observed that --

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber observed that

 7     sometimes there seemed to be inconsistencies, smaller ones or bigger

 8     ones, between documentary evidence we have received and statement of the

 9     witness.  And then in the examination of the witness he sometimes refers

10     to materials which -- on which he relies, and, of course, it would

11     certainly help to assist the Chamber to have access to those materials so

12     as to be better able to assess the weight to be given to the documents

13     the witness is contradicting, documents that could support the witness's

14     evidence.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But, meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Radan, let's continue.

19             Yesterday the Prosecutor showed you a document which I would like

20     to call up.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P352.  P352.

22        Q.   You will see that it is a notebook.  We can see typed-up versions

23     of that notebook.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm interested in page 305 in B/C/S

25     version and page 296 in English.  These are not the same numbers I found

Page 21414

 1     earlier this morning in e-court and that version is used by the Defence.

 2             Let's return one page.  Let's go back one page in B/C/S.  I'm

 3     satisfied with the English page.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We're now looking at B/C/S page 304 in e-court, and

 5     English 296 in e-court.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  That's right.  Now we have everything on the screen

 7     what we need.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] The Prosecutor showed you the same document.  It

 9     deals with a meeting that was held on the 11th of May, 1992.  It says

10     here that Colonel Kovacevic reported that he had been the brains of the

11     weapons distribution for ten months and that, up to then, 69.000 Serbs

12     had been armed.

13             At that time, JNA members who responded to mobilisation calls,

14     what was their ethnicity?

15        A.   They were exclusively Serbs.  Because Alija Izetbegovic invited

16     Muslims not to join the army or the Territorial Defence.

17        Q.   And then in the following sentence, we read that

18     Colonel Kovacevic asks for the chief of the -- chief of logistics to be

19     kept in his position.  In the first sentence of his presentation, you can

20     see that he was the assistant commander for logistics, or PkPo, at the

21     Command of the 2nd Military District.  I don't know how much you know

22     about military matters.

23        A.   Very little.  Let me tell you straight away that I don't know

24     much about that.

25        Q.   So you wouldn't know whether the procurement of weapons for units

Page 21415

 1     was within the purview of that man?

 2        A.   No, I was a foot soldier.  I never received any rank, so I really

 3     wouldn't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The following document is P3030.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you please activate your

 8     microphone.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] These are conclusions.  There is an accompanying

11     letter, and it says that enclosed with the document, the requested

12     assessment with annexes concerning the situation and problems in the

13     territory of Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina is being sent.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And can we now go to the following

15     page.  The relevant period is March 1992 and the period preceding that.

16        Q.   I'm interested in page 4, the same page that the Prosecutor

17     showed you.

18             MR. LUKIC:  In English version, we need previous page, please.

19     Can you go one page back in English version.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We're now at page 3 in the English version in

21     e-court.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know how this happened, but we need next page

23     in -- in English.  I don't know if --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean next to 3 or next to 4?

25             MR. LUKIC:  Next to 3.  It's -- it's top of the page.

Page 21416

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That is 4.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Second.  Where it says "second," yeah.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] So this was put to you yesterday, and it says

 4     here in this report:

 5             "The Serb people opted for Yugoslavia.  If this option is not

 6     viable, only a confederal Bosnia and Herzegovina would be taken into

 7     account."

 8             "Quite simply a third option does not exist.

 9             "The leadership of the Serb people and the Serb people as a whole

10     are fully prepared to -- for war, should the confederal option not be

11     accepted."

12             As for this war, to the best of your knowledge, were the Serbs

13     preparing for it through attempts to ruin the common country, destroy it,

14     or preserve it?

15        A.   To the best of my knowledge, and I follow this carefully, reports

16     from the Assembly, and I also attended some meetings, Serbs invested all

17     of their energy to remain in Yugoslavia.  If all of Yugoslavia could not

18     remain, then Bosnia-Herzegovina should be in Yugoslavia nevertheless, and

19     not in any variant whatsoever did they consider war then or did they opt

20     for war.  So all of this that is stated under number 2 is true.  That is

21     to say that every effort should be made to prevent a war.  If a war were

22     to happen, then we should defend ourselves because others wanted

23     something different.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I ask the witness -- the document

25     doesn't say:  "If finally we are attacked."  The document says:

Page 21417

 1             "The Serbian leadership and the Serbian people are fully prepared

 2     to wage a war."

 3             You're telling us something which is -- and I'm going back to

 4     what I said earlier, you're giving us a picture, right or wrong, I'm not

 5     giving any opinion about that, but which is totally different from what

 6     the text of this document says.  "Fully prepared to wage a war."

 7             Wage a war is -- is to engage in a war and not if we are

 8     attacked, we have to defend ourselves.  That's -- that's not the same

 9     language.  I'm just pointing it to you so that you are aware that at

10     least it may be perceived in a different way as you explain it, on the

11     basis of the text.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  Would you allow me just one

13     sentence?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document says that there are

16     three options on the table.  That is to say, if not a single one of the

17     three is to be used, then the Serbs would be ready for war but they would

18     never start it first.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's not what the document says.  It says

20     if -- first of all, it says a third option simply does not exist.

21     Therefore, it only gives two options.

22             And then it says:  "If what we consider appropriate is not

23     accepted, we are ready -- we are fully prepared to wage a war."

24             Now I'm not giving any opinion about whether it was justified or

25     not, but the way in which you translate it seems to be not fully

Page 21418

 1     consistent with the language of that document.  Unless you want to tell

 2     us, you would never start it because you would first try other peaceful

 3     means to settle the issues; but if you would be unsuccessful, that you

 4     would then wage a war, although you would not start by considering waging

 5     a war but you would start by seeking peaceful solutions.

 6             If that is what you want to tell us then -- then it seems to be

 7     more in line with the text which is before us.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, just as you had put it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which is not the same as what you said but ...

10     we now understand at least what you intended to say.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to clarify one thing.  My question was

13     not based only on this document.  And I'll read to you, Your Honours, my

14     question.

15             My question, in line 10, page 26, says:

16             "As for this war, to the best of your knowledge, not based on

17     this document, were the Serbs preparing for it through attempts to ruin

18     the common country or to save it," but we cannot see in the transcript

19     "or to save it."

20             So my question was based on the knowledge of this witness, so

21     there was no need to bring him back strictly to this document.  The

22     Prosecution wanted to stick to this document.  That was not my intention

23     and that was not the question I posed to the witness and he was not

24     answering that question.  He was answering my question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

Page 21419

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And I asked him about his --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may have misunderstood me --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't.  Trust me.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you understood me well, then there is no

 5     need to further explain, isn't there.

 6             Let's move on.  What I did is I did put to the witness that what

 7     he answered to your question was inconsistent as far as language is

 8     concerned with what we find in a document.  And that is a perfectly

 9     adequate question, I would say.  Even if your question didn't take him to

10     that document, I can take him to the document when he has answered your

11     question and to see whether his answer is consistent with what we see in

12     this document.

13             Let's move on.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, may I draw your attention to line 17

15     of page 26.

16             The witness in response to your question said:

17             "So all of this that is stated under number 2 of the document."

18             He related his answer to this document in front of us.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may also add, Mr. Lukic, you asked the

20     question you asked after you showed the witness this document and

21     referred him to what the Prosecutor said and that is why your question,

22     broader as it might be, cannot be separated from this document because

23     you relate it to this document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's move on, and let's try to get -- to get

25     the complete answers to all the questions we may have.

Page 21420

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Your knowledge about the situation in the

 4     municipality of Novo Sarajevo, is it restricted?  And do you draw on all

 5     of your knowledge just from this document or is your knowledge about what

 6     happened in your municipality broader than what can be found in this

 7     document?

 8        A.   With all due respect do this document, this is the first time I

 9     see it, so I could not draw my knowledge on this document.  I tried to

10     draw my knowledge from many other documents and from the media and talks

11     and broader and narrower knowledge.  So, with all due respect, this

12     document is not the only source of my information.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, in this context, I repeat what I said

14     earlier.  If the witness relies on other documentation, then, of course,

15     the Chamber is interested to see that documentation so as to further

16     support the evidence of this witness.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm not going to put any more questions to on

20     the basis of this document because, as you said, this is the first time

21     you see it.  But on the other page, there is this math as to how many

22     people were armed through corps, 62.000 --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Lukic repeat the

24     numbers.  This is too fast for interpretation.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat, Mr. --

Page 21421

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So according to corps or, rather,

 2     through corps, these were corps of the then-JNA, the 9th Corps, the

 3     10th Corps, the 5th Corp, the 17th Corps, and the 4th Corps.  The total

 4     number of people armed was 62.690 persons.  And it is stated within the

 5     4th Military District there is an additional 6.500 persons in volunteer

 6     units which brings to us a grand total of 62.190 and that is the number

 7     that is referred to in the report of Colonel --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I interrupt?  May I interrupt you, Mr. Lukic?

 9     I'm lost.  You said to the witness you're not going to further ask him

10     about this document because it's the first time he sees.  And then you

11     are referring to figures and I'm not quite sure where you are reading

12     from.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to draw your attention what this

14     document --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which document?

16             MR. LUKIC:  The same document that's on the screen.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But is it on this page where we are?

18             MR. LUKIC:  It's not.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Take us to the page, please.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't want to torture the witness.  I wanted to

21     cut it short, but we can go to the page.  It's page 5 in B/C/S.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you read it, the Chamber is entitled to know

23     where you're reading from.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Page 5 in B/C/S.  I hope it's the same page in

25     English version.  It's the next page in English [overlapping speakers] --

Page 21422

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 6, perhaps.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  We can see numbers, one below the other.

 3     Yeah, now we have it in the middle of the page.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What were you saying about the numbers?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Under (d), number of men in the corps zones.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page in B/C/S?  It's not the right page.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's page probably 6.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It's page 5 in the document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It's page 6 in e-court.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Must be -- must be 7 --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We have it before us.

13             MR. LUKIC:  7 in B/C/S, sorry.  It was double pages.  Then the

14     next one again.  There is some double pages in this document, in e-court.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In e-court, it's supposed to be --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Now we have it on the top of the page.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's page -- page 8 in B/C/S e-court.

18             Let me just -- Mr. Lukic, you referred to weapons being

19     distributed through the corps, whereas I find JNA distributed so many

20     weapons, and the SDS --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But -- okay.  We'll carefully read what you have

23     drawn our attention to.  But this is not just about distribution of

24     weapons through the corps.  It is the number of men in the zones of

25     responsibility of the corps, and it apparently refers to distribution of

Page 21423

 1     weapons by the JNA, without further details as how they were distributed

 2     by the JNA, and by the SDS.  And, further, it says something about the

 3     position of volunteers, and that the volunteer units are not part of the

 4     JNA and the TO establishment structure.

 5             So -- so there's a lot of information apparently there which one

 6     would need to analyse very carefully before one could draw any

 7     conclusions from it.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, that's why I just draw your attention to

 9     this page, and I know that I cannot ask this witness nothing about --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that's fine.  Perhaps at a later moment then you

11     may further elaborate on what is found in this part of this document.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  May I move on?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Next document we need is P353.

17     [Interpretation] This is a notebook.  We need the page that the

18     Prosecution showed you:  B/C/S page 307.  And, in the English version,

19     page 308.

20             [In English] I was checking the handwritten version, and

21     obviously in B/C/S the pages are not the same.  We have to go back one

22     page in B/C/S version.  Yeah, that's it.  We need middle of the page

23     where Koljevic is reporting this meeting.  It's recorded that it's

24     meeting from 10th of July, 1992.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] You were told -- well, it says here, Koljevic is

Page 21424

 1     saying:  "Batko is terrorising Grbavica, must be arrested."

 2        A.   Arrested.

 3        Q.   Yes, arrested.  Through this sentence -- I think it's clear.  I

 4     don't even think I have to ask you.  I think it's clear that the army is

 5     not giving assistance or support to this Batko who is being discussed.

 6        A.   Yes, and --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you're telling to the witness it's

 8     clear and that you don't have to ask questions, then you should move on

 9     to --

10             MR. LUKIC:  But I have another one.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But that's not what happened.  Okay.  You

12     have another question.  Could you please put that question to the

13     witness.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, yes, perhaps, if the

15     Trial Chamber thinks I should put that question.

16        Q.   When somebody asks for an arrest, is that support or is that an

17     attempt to work against that person?

18        A.   Is that a question for me?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Well, everything here fits in with the indications or the

21     intentions that we had as we were working on the ground.  It's all

22     synchronised.

23        Q.   Yes, that was my second question, actually.  You anticipated it.

24     We are now finished with this document.

25             Mr. Radan, thank you very much.  Even though I already said it

Page 21425

 1     before that I didn't have any questions, now I really mean it.  I have no

 2     further questions for you.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 4             Have the questions triggered any need for further questions,

 5     Ms. Bibles?

 6             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  This means -- one second, please.

 8             This means, Mr. Radan, that we are at the end of your examination

 9     as a witness.  I'd like to thank you very much for -- first of all, for

10     coming to The Hague, and, second, for having answered all the questions

11     that were put to you by the parties or by the Bench, and I wish you a

12     safe return home again.

13             You may follow the usher.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before the Defence will be invited to call its next

17     witness, I would like to deal with a few procedural matters.  Perhaps

18     then take a break and then start the examination of the next witness

19     after the break.

20             I first would like to deal with a few matters in relation to the

21     revised witness list which was filed by the Defence.

22             The witness and exhibit lists were filed a few minutes after the

23     deadline that was set by the Chamber, and they received, as a result, the

24     filing date of the 19th of May, 2014, but despite this, the Chamber

25     accepts this late filing.

Page 21426

 1             For some of the witnesses who are indicated to testify as

 2     Rule 94 bis witness, that is, experts, the Chamber wondered whether the

 3     gist of their evidence is really their expertise or, rather, their

 4     factual observations.  I just, in this context, note entries numbers 36,

 5     51, 80, 83, 104, and 184.  But I leave the matter for the time being in

 6     the hands of the parties.

 7             The Chamber notes that the Defence - and that is in line with the

 8     Chamber's Rule 73 ter decision - has cut down the times for

 9     examination-in-chief for many witnesses.  Other than removing

10     Prosecution [sic] witnesses from its list, the Defence has removed

11     Witnesses GRM086, GRM120, and GRM313, but then replaced these with two

12     new witnesses, GRM337 and GRM338.  The Defence has not significantly

13     reduced the number of witnesses, and the Chamber wonders whether this may

14     also have led to somewhat unrealistically low estimates for some of the

15     witnesses.  Of course, we do encourage the efficient examination of

16     witnesses but just by striking minutes, you have not yet shortened a

17     testimony of a witness.

18             The Chamber further notes that the time claimed for expert

19     witnesses - I'm referring to GRM036, GRM049, GRM083, GRM087, GRM109,

20     GRM134, and GRM140, GRM191, and GRM193 - is 30 minutes for each of these

21     experts.  If that means that the Defence will mainly rely on expert

22     reports and would have no further questions for those experts, then, of

23     course, it may be a very efficient way of proceeding.

24             If, however, it would be on the back of your mind also to examine

25     those witnesses on perhaps sometimes complex expert issues, then one

Page 21427

 1     could wonder whether 30 minutes is a realistic estimate for the time

 2     needed for that, and the Chamber would like the Defence to thoroughly

 3     think about such issues.

 4             For Witness GRM045, the witness list indicates an estimated time

 5     for examination-in-chief of 30 minutes.  However, the mode of testimony

 6     for this witness is Rule 92 bis, and the Defence is invited to clarify

 7     this contradiction.

 8             For the last item, I'd like to discuss -- I would like to move

 9     into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 21428











11  Pages 21428-21432 redacted.  Private session.















Page 21433

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             For the public record, the Chamber has just issued an oral

11     decision whereby it ordered, proprio motu, pursuant to Rule 75(A) of the

12     Rules, that the testimony of Witness RM019 remains in closed session.

13             We take a break, and I also take it that the Defence will be

14     ready to call its next witness after the break.

15             MR. IVETIC:  We will, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will take a break, and we resume at

17     ten minutes past 12.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 11.47 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.11 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would

21     like to raise a preliminary matter.

22             MR. GROOME:  Thank you, Your Honours, just briefly.

23             In line with our earlier discussions about Rule 90(E), I do

24     inform the Chamber that this witness did receive a 90(E) warning when he

25     testified before the Karadzic case.  With respect to my examination of

Page 21434

 1     him, I do intend to ask him about his involvement in shelling

 2     Scheduled Incident G4.  He was the legal advisor for the brigade during

 3     the shelling incident.  We'll ask him specific questions about that.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It might not be wise to give him, then, that warning

 6     in the beginning, in a general sense.  But if you would indicate when you

 7     would like me to inform the witness -- well, whether it's a warning or

 8     whether it's informing him, that's -- that's two ways of saying the same

 9     thing.

10             MR. GROOME:  Right.  I will do that, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic, I leave it to you whether you find

12     any reason to -- to at an earlier stage put this to the witness.

13             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

14             I already -- I -- in addition to the decision in relation to

15     Witness RM019 I delivered before the break, in order to avoid any

16     confusion, I'd like to add that we decided, proprio motu, to -- that the

17     testimony of this witness remains in closed session but also includes

18     pseudonym.  That remains as well.

19             Second, the Chamber received information from the Prosecution

20     that, in view of the information they received from the briefing by the

21     Defence, that they extended their time estimate for cross-examination

22     from two to two and a half hours.

23             MR. GROOME:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Mijatovic.  Could I invite you

Page 21435

 1     to stand for a second.

 2             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

 3     solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to you.  May I invite you to

 4     make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, let me greet you and

 6     I would kindly thank you for the invitation to ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the Defence invited you.  There's no need to

 8     say that.  If you would just make that solemn declaration, that would be

 9     it for the time being.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

11     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS:  NIKOLA MIJATOVIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mijatovic.  Please be seated.

15             Mr. Mijatovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.

16     Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic, and you'll find

17     him to your left.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

21        Q.   Good day, sir.

22        A.   Good day to you, Mr. Ivetic.

23        Q.   Sir, could you please state your name, including your last name,

24     for the record.

25        A.   My name is Nikola Mijatovic.

Page 21436

 1             MR. IVETIC:  At this time, I would like to call up in e-court

 2     65 ter number 1D01607.

 3        Q.   Sir, if we can look together at the first page of the document in

 4     the Serbian original, can you tell me if you can confirm whose signature

 5     appears at the bottom of the page?

 6        A.   This is my signature.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to the last page in e-court in both

 8     versions, that should be page 8.

 9        Q.   Sir, there's also a signature and a date on this page.  Can you

10     tell me if you recognise the same?

11        A.   This is my signature.  And the date is 16 May 2014.

12        Q.   Now, subsequent to signing this statement, sir, did you have

13     occasion to review the statement in the Serbian language for purposes of

14     verifying if there were any corrections or additions required?

15        A.   I had an occasion, and together with you, I made some additions.

16             MR. IVETIC:  If we could first turn to page 2 in the English and

17     page 2 in the B/C/S of this document, 1D01607.

18        Q.   I'd like to focus, sir, on the second paragraph and the

19     discussion of the neighbour that warned of plans to murder you.  And if

20     we could, at the same time, look at paragraph 5 of the statement, where

21     it also says that a neighbour told you of a planned murder of you in your

22     automobile.  And I'd like to ask you to clarify are these the same

23     incidents involving the same neighbour?

24        A.   It was not the same neighbour.  In that case, the young man was

25     from a mixed marriage.  His father was a Serb.  And in the second case,

Page 21437

 1     the gentleman was a Muslim, and if you want me to tell you his name, I

 2     don't want to do it publicly.  The man helped me, I don't want to

 3     discredit him and complicate his life.  I'm very grateful to him for

 4     having done what he did.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, if we could briefly go into private

 6     session for the purposes of getting the individual's identity.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Sir, now if we could look at paragraph number 4 on the same page

Page 21438

 1     in both versions.  The harassment of Serbian children based on their Serb

 2     ethnicity that you describe here, what is the basis of this testimony?

 3     What the basis of your knowledge of the same?

 4        A.   My children, my three children, my three daughters, suffered

 5     harassment.  They would be harassed by my neighbours, and that started in

 6     1990 and 1991.  The children of my other friends and relatives fared the

 7     same, but particularly my children were involved in that.

 8        Q.   If we can take a look at paragraph 7 together.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  That can be found in e-court at page 3 of the B/C/S

10     and page 3 in the English.

11        Q.   Here, in the statement, sir, you are mentioning a primary school

12     1st Maj on Cetinjska Street, and I note that the Serbian version mentions

13     a machine-gun nest or "mitraljesko gnezdo" while the English translation

14     mentions a sniper nest.  What can you tell us in relation to this?  Which

15     accords with your recollection of what was present approximately 150

16     metres from this school on Cetinjska Street?

17        A.   As a matter of fact, there were both, both a sniper nest and a

18     machine-gun nest at the beginning of the war.  There was also a mortar

19     position nearby, and -- and that's the truth of the matter.

20        Q.   And while we are at this paragraph, can you provide any further

21     details about your source of the information contained herein about the

22     1st Maj school being used as a makeshift prison for Serbs?

23        A.   The source of that information was my sister-in-law -- or,

24     rather, my wife's sister.  Her son, Srdjan Lazic was brought in merely

25     because he had my videocamera.  And first he was taken to the MUP.  He

Page 21439

 1     was a 15-year-old child at the time but he was tall.  He was already very

 2     tall at the time.  And he was first taken to the MUP, which was across

 3     the street from my building, and then to the school some 100 metres away

 4     from the MUP.  And he told me that he had seen that a Serb had his head

 5     cut off and those who cut his head off with a sword cursed his Chetnik

 6     mother.  He saw that people had their limbs broken.  There was a case

 7     when --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- could I, first of all, invite you to slow

 9     down so that the interpreters can follow your speed of speech.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Very well.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, a lot of information comes as a kind of

12     a waterfall.  Could you please try to get some structure in it.  Because

13     it's unclear whose head was cut off and whether that happened at that

14     moment or -- well, it's pretty unclear.

15             Please listen to Mr. Ivetic's questions and try to focus your

16     answers on what he asks you because the source of the information

17     apparently was the son of the sister of your wife.  That was the

18     question.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Sir, could you clarify for us what exactly it was that the son of

22     the sister of your wife told you took place at the school and to whom, by

23     whom?

24        A.   That school had already been transformed into a prison at the

25     beginning of the war.  Muslims had cut a Serb's head off.  He concluded

Page 21440

 1     that he was a Serb because they cursed his Chetnik mother.  And also

 2     another Serb had his limbs broken by paramilitary formations, the

 3     so-called Green Berets and the Patriotic League, who were already active

 4     in Sarajevo at the time.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  If we can now turn to paragraph 23.  That is to be

 6     found on page 5 in the English and page 6 in the Serbian in e-court.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just seek clarification on one or two items.

 8             Do I understand that this 15-year-old boy was present when the

 9     head of a Serb was cut off?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if his mother had

13     not intervened, I suppose that he would have ended up in the same way.

14     She went there, she screamed and cried and wailed and pleaded, and she

15     managed to have him released.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So apparently his mother was nearby as well.

17             Do you know the identity of the Serb whose head was cut off?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   If we could look at paragraph 23 of your statement.  That should

22     be on the screen before you, sir.

23             And I'd like to ask you:  Does this paragraph accurately and

24     fully state your reasons for not believing document P2795 from the Galic

25     trial, or do you wish to add some further detail?

Page 21441

 1        A.   As far as I know, I was very familiar with that line at the time.

 2     Across from that line were the combat positions of the so-called

 3     BiH Army, i.e., the Muslim army.  They were across the road from our

 4     positions.

 5             What was typical of that part of town was that across the road

 6     from our facilities, and I'm talking about Nedzarici, was that those were

 7     5- to 7-storey buildings whereas the constructions in Nedzarici were

 8     two storeys high at the most.  Throughout the war there were no civilians

 9     in this neighbourhood because it would not have been logical to expect

10     any of the civilians to walk between two combat lines --

11        Q.   Sir, if I can ask for some clarification --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Ivetic, we are apparently

13     listening to a comment of the witness on a P exhibit in the Galic case.

14     Is the Chamber aware of the content of that?  Have we been provided with

15     it?  Because it's difficult for us to understand, not that he doesn't

16     believe it, but he has doubts as the statement says, which is not exactly

17     the same, but how could we follow this evidence if we are not aware of

18     what the underlying document says?

19             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, this is the statement as it was in the

20     Karadzic case, this particular selection.  And, unfortunately, we do not

21     have in the JDB from the Galic case this particular exhibit so as to --

22     we have the testimony from the Karadzic case where they referred to it.

23     So --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you seriously presenting us a comment of the

25     witness in a statement on a document which you say you don't have?

Page 21442

 1             MR. IVETIC:  This is the witness statement as was given to me,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You are responsible for the presentation of

 4     evidence, Mr. Ivetic.  You can't hide behind those who have given you a

 5     statement.  I mean, if I see it at first sight, you could have asked

 6     those who provide you with the statement for which you primarily bear

 7     responsibility to have it adduced as evidence.  But I do understand that

 8     you don't have it.

 9             So most likely then you would not understand what the witness's

10     testimony is either or on the basis of other unknown to us transcripts.

11             Mr. Groome, are you able to assist or --

12             MR. GROOME:  First, Your Honour, I believe there's a

13     typographical error in the statement.  It references P2795 from the Galic

14     case.  I'd encourage Mr. Ivetic to check the transcript of the Galic case

15     at T-16856.  I believe the correct number is P2759.  And, Your Honour, we

16     have looked at that and it is P1079 in this case.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just -- one second, please.

18             Yes, if that assists -- at least we could have a look at P1079 in

19     this case and see whether it makes sense and whether there's a fair

20     chance that we're talking about the same document.

21             Meanwhile, please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now, sir, in relation to the positions of the ABiH that you have

24     identified, where were they in relation to the 7- to 10-storey buildings

25     identified in your statement?

Page 21443

 1        A.   Our positions were some 50 metres away.  Some were -- some of

 2     them were even closer.  Sometimes only a street divided us.  I'm

 3     specifically talking about Alipasino Polje --

 4        Q.   Sir, I'm asking about the ABiH positions, not the VRS positions.

 5     Where were the ABiH positions in relation to the 7- to 10-storey

 6     buildings?

 7        A.   In Alipasino Polje, in military field and Dobrinja 5, those were

 8     the high-rise buildings that surrounded Nedzarici.  Those buildings

 9     housed the positions of the Muslim army, the so-called BiH Army.

10        Q.   Looking at paragraph 28 of your statement, which is to be found

11     on page 7 in both languages, you have identified a military headquarters

12     and a 120-millimetre mortar near the site of the incident in question in

13     Hrasnica.  Are those the only two military installations in Hrasnica that

14     were known to you, or are there others?

15        A.   There were others as well.  I'm surprised that this has been

16     omitted.  I've already told you so, because I mentioned them.  The

17     brigade in Hrasnica had some 80 heavy weapons, three tanks, five APCs.

18     It had 105-millimetre howitzers, 120-millimetre howitzers,

19     100-millimetre cannons.  I personally observed a multi-rocket-launcher

20     and I ordered my men to fire that rocket-launcher in Hrasnica.  In other

21     words, there were a lot more weapons and assets than are mentioned here.

22     I've already spoken about that.  I believe that due to speed those facts

23     have been omitted from my statement.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And how large is the area of Hrasnica?  That is to

25     say, the area where all these military installations were located that

Page 21444

 1     you have just listed for us.

 2        A.   The area could be 3 to 4 kilometres long and approximately

 3     2 kilometres wide.  It was a small neighbourhood.  It was not a town

 4     or -- it was not a village either.  It was just a neighbourhood.

 5        Q.   Now, apart from the corrections and clarifications we've talked

 6     about today, do you stand behind your written statement, as we have in

 7     e-court?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   If you were to be asked the same questions today about the same

10     topics as in your statement, would you provide the same answers, in

11     substance, subject only to the corrections and additions that we've gone

12     through in court?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And now that you have taken the solemn declaration in the

15     courtroom, do you affirm the truthfulness and accuracy of this statement,

16     subject to the clarifications --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Wait for me to finish my question.  Subject to the clarifications

19     and corrections we went through?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours -- Your Honours, at this time I would

22     tender --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be something wrong.  Your microphone

24     seems to be activated, nevertheless we don't hear.  Could you please

25     restart.

Page 21445

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  At this time I would tender the

 2     statement of the witness, 1D01607, into evidence under Rule 92 ter.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Groome.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, the proofing note that we received on

 5     Wednesday evening listed a number of corrections, one of which seems

 6     significant that has not been dealt with.  Can I draw Mr. Ivetic's

 7     attention to paragraph 11 of the statement.  Has to do with a date.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Ah, yes.

 9        Q.   If we can look at paragraph 11, sir - and that should be on page

10     4 in both versions - here you have several dates and several positions

11     that you held in the brigade.  Are all the positions that you held in the

12     brigade accurately depicted here, along with the dates that you held

13     those positions?

14        A.   This is obviously a mistake.  I was the chief of security in the

15     Ilidza Brigade --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   Sir -- sir, could you speak more slowly.

19        A.   On the 27th of May, i.e., towards the end of May 1992, I was

20     seriously wounded.  I suffered a bullet wound.  I was clinically dead.  I

21     was treated for three months in the hospital, so it could not have been

22     in 1992.  It must a typo.  This was the same period of 1993.  That's why

23     I said that this should be corrected.

24        Q.   If I can ask you, sir, after spending time in the hospital, to

25     what position in the brigade were you first assigned, and when did that

Page 21446

 1     take place?

 2        A.   When I returned from the hospital, I was assigned to the

 3     logistics unit.  I spent several months there.  After rehabilitation,

 4     when I was feeling better, I became the assistant brigade commander for

 5     information, morale, and religious issues.  After that, I became chief of

 6     security in the Ilidza Brigade.  And then sometime in July 1993 -- or,

 7     rather, in September 1994, I apologise, I became the Chief of Staff and

 8     deputy commander of the Ilidza Brigade.

 9        Q.   Do you recall the date when you would have become the assistant

10     for information, morale, and religious matters in the brigade?

11        A.   This could have been in November 1992.  In any case, it was

12     before the new year of 1992 [as interpreted].  It probably was in

13     November.

14        Q.   And with respect to becoming the chief of security in the

15     brigade, do you -- am I correct -- could you tell us that date?  It's a

16     little unclear from your answer what that date was.

17        A.   It could have been sometime in March or April 1993.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm not quite sure, but at page 55,

19     lines 22 to 23, whether the witness wanted to say before the new year of

20     1993 or of 1992.  Because previously he said it was November 1992.

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Mr. Mijatovic, are you able to assist Judge Moloto with

23     clarifying your answer.  Was it the new year of 1992 or 1993 that you

24     meant to reference?

25        A.   Before the new year 1993, which means that this was in

Page 21447

 1     November 1992.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Now, sir, apart from this further clarification, do you stand by

 6     your witness statement as it is written?

 7        A.   I do, yes.

 8        Q.   Subject to the solemn declaration you have taken, do you affirm

 9     that the answers therein are truthful and accurate?

10        A.   I confirm that my answers are truthful and accurate.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender 1D01607 into evidence

12     as the next Defence exhibit.

13             MR. GROOME:  No objection at this stage, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Groome.

15             Before we decide -- Witness, could you tell me, you commented in

16     paragraph 23 on alleged activity in the home for the blind, which was

17     contained in a document that was shown to you.  Could you tell us what

18     exactly that document with which you disagreed, what it said?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was in the Galic case, when

20     General Stanislav Galic was being tried, my commander, the commander of

21     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I remember an instance when they talked

22     about a guy.  There was no name.  The guy wasn't identified, or the part

23     of the body where he was wounded.  There was just a report that some

24     young man was injured -- wounded, that he was taken to the hospital and

25     given medical assistance.

Page 21448

 1             The point there was to accuse us, the Serbian side, of sniper

 2     fire against civilians.  And I said, well, the name of the person is not

 3     cited.  It doesn't say where he was wounded.  There's no mention of the

 4     weapon that wounded him.  I remember that case very well.  I was here.  I

 5     don't remember if it was the same courtroom or not.  But I think that

 6     perhaps I also talked about the situation, the description about that

 7     event, and that's why I said that I just doubted all of the things that

 8     were said then about it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have -- you said it was about a -- the

10     name of the person was not cited but it was about a young man which was

11     wounded.

12             I'm -- what I found -- find as most likely the only possible

13     reference in P1079 is that reference is made to a Bosnian civilian, male,

14     age 48 - of course, people may wish still to be young at the age of 48 -

15     but wounded by SA fire, alleged to be fire at Kovaci.

16             Therefore, I do not see any reference to the home of the blind.

17     Was that mentioned in that report on which you commented?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kovaci.  I know about a part of

19     town that is on the other side of Sarajevo.  Kovaci is in Bascarsija.

20     And that case that you're talking about has nothing do with the area of

21     responsibility of the Ilidza Brigade where I was.  If you know Sarajevo

22     and where Bascarsija is, then this is above Bascarsija.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I know where Bascarsija is.  I'm totally lost as far

24     as paragraph 23 is concerned and since the witness says that he would

25     give the same answer -- Mr. Groome.

Page 21449

 1             MR. GROOME:  If I can assist, Your Honour.

 2             I believe what the witness -- I think the witness's memory is

 3     failing him on what happened in Galic, but having read the Galic

 4     transcript, I believe if you look at e-court page 4 and if you look at

 5     item 24(B), I think that's the part that was relevant in that case.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  24(B).  Let me have a look.  24, and then B.  Let me

 7     see.  Let me read, then, what is found in the document on which you

 8     apparently have commented.

 9             It says:  The command, or commander, COMD, 1st BN, which stands

10     for abbreviation -- I don't know whether it's a brigade or -- BN ...

11             MR. GROOME:  Battalion.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  "Battalion of the BSA," which stands for Bosnian

13     Serb Army, I take it, "Ilidza Brigade, admitted the sniping by Bosnian

14     Serb Army from BP 859578 (house for blind people).  He promised that

15     there would be no more sniping from that place."

16             It doesn't say anything about a young person having been wounded.

17     It says something about a statement given by the commander of the

18     Ilidza -- of the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade who apparently had

19     admitted the sniping by the Bosnian Serb Army from the house for the

20     blind people.

21             You now say:  I personally doubt it.  What do you doubt?  That he

22     said so, or do you doubt that there was sniping activity?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm hearing it for the first time

24     that he admitted it.

25             Secondly, I don't know -- I mean, I stand by what I said when the

Page 21450

 1     case was presented to me.  I think we need to find that.  I don't know if

 2     it's the same incident, but I know 100 per cent that, at that time, it

 3     was about a young man who was wounded.  He was not named.  They didn't

 4     say where he was wounded.  Just that he was wounded and taken to the

 5     hospital.  I don't know.

 6             As for this commander, you can ask him what he saw and what he

 7     said.  I wasn't there.  I cannot confirm or deny what is said.  I'm

 8     talking about the event that I asked about, that it was impossible from

 9     our side to hit a civilian because the buildings in front of us had 7 to

10     10 storeys, and you cannot believe that civilians were walking around in

11     front of our positions.  I think that you would agree with me.  I mean,

12     the lines.  I mean, we would be divided by a street, so you can

13     imagine --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- so these are conclusions you've drawn.

15     Because the document, at least the part I read, doesn't say anything

16     about civilians.  It's -- just says "sniper activity," not referring in

17     any way to civilians yet.  But you say it's illogical and therefore it

18     can't be true.  Is that how I have to understand your testimony?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.  It was about the

20     incident that I was questioned about.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, we do not know at this moment what it

22     is.  But now at least it becomes a bit more clear what it is all about.

23             Then ...

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number for the 92 ter witness

Page 21451

 1     statement would be.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1607 receives number D468,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D468 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Mr. Ivetic, I noticed that one of the persons who interviewed the

 6     witness was counsel, Mr. Stojanovic.  So, therefore, to say, "that is how

 7     I received it," he is seated 1 and a half metre behind you.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would like to tender at

10     this time two associated exhibits.  1D02295 and 1D02296.

11             MR. GROOME:  No objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the numbers.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2295 receives number D469,

14     Your Honours.

15             And document 1D2296 receives number D470, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D469 and D470 are admitted.

17             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  At this time I would like

19     to read a summary of the Rule 92 ter evidence.  I have during proofing

20     explained the purpose of this summary to the witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Mr. Nikola Mijatovic lived in the Alipasino Polje

23     part of Sarajevo with his family until neighbours told him about multiple

24     plots to kill him because he was a prominent Serb living there for about

25     ten years.  He and his family left Sarajevo in April 1992 as a result.

Page 21452

 1             Before he left, Mr. Mijatovic noted information received from

 2     others that Bosnian Muslims were organising the distribution of weapons

 3     to those considered reliable.  He personally witnessed a truck of rifles

 4     that was parked in front of his apartment, which he reported to the

 5     police, but he suspects the Bosnian Muslim police officers told the truck

 6     driver to hide the same.

 7             He noted that the demeanour of Bosnian Muslim neighbours became

 8     hostile towards Serbs before he departed Sarajevo and that even Serb

 9     children were abused due to their ethnicity.

10             Upon departing Sarajevo, the witness became part of the

11     Ilidza Brigade, eventually becoming chief of security and then

12     Chief of Staff.  His testimony is that the ABiH utilized civilian schools

13     to manufacture grenades and launchers.

14             His testimony is that the ABiH side shelled the power transfer

15     station which covered both Ilidza and Sarajevo, cutting off power, and

16     then falsely blaming the Serbs.

17             His testimony is that the ABiH often shelled Ilidza from near

18     where UNPROFOR was situated, despite complaints about the same.

19             According to his information, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

20     suffered from a severe shortage of artillery and mortar ammunition.  It

21     is for these reasons that the corps was compelled to use modified aerial

22     bombs.  The trajectory of these bombs was predetermined and could be

23     controlled.  As with any other type of guided weapons, there was a chance

24     of minimum deviation due to meteorological conditions.  The objective for

25     using modified aerial bombs was defence, to defend themselves against

Page 21453

 1     ABiH attacks, and prevent a breakthrough by the ABiH through the lines

 2     and thus prevent an ABiH massacre of the civilian population of Ilidza.

 3             No one in his brigade nor, as far as he knows, in the corps

 4     command intended to terrorise civilians in part of the city controlled by

 5     Muslim forces.  He received reports that Muslims were also using modified

 6     aerial bombs.

 7             The witness also discusses the incident G10, noting that certain

 8     ABiH military targets were in that part of Hrasnica, including a command

 9     of the BH Army, and a 120-millimetre mortar.

10             As to G13, the witness points out this was during a fierce

11     Bosnian Muslim offensive when both sides were actively shooting.

12             Than completes a summary of the statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

14             Any further questions for the witness.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. IVETIC:

18        Q.   If we can turn to page 4 of your statement and paragraphs 15 and

19     16, here, sir, you are talking about the Muslim side giving false

20     information to the UN that the Serbs were targeting civilians, and you

21     give an account of when the ABiH shelled a power transfer station and

22     then blamed the Serbs for -- for -- for cutting off electricity.

23             I would like to look at document 1D02085 with you.

24             Sir, if you could focus on this document, it's dated

25     13 December 1992, and it's a report of your brigade signed by the

Page 21454

 1     commander.  If we look at item number 1, does this appear to be related

 2     to the attack of the power transfer station that you describe in your

 3     statement?

 4        A.   May I answer?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   This refers to this case, although there were a number of cases

 7     of shelling damage of this Muslim transformer station.  This is a station

 8     that Sarajevo was supplied through, as well as Serbian Ilidza, as well as

 9     the waterworks.  So if you hit the station and the oil is lost, then

10     there would be no water for Serbian Ilidza or for other parts of

11     Sarajevo, in the city and on the outskirts of town.

12             So everything went through this transformer station, and it was

13     something that was used for constant pressure and for deceiving the

14     public because what they wanted was to create the impression that the

15     Serbs were constantly inflicting terror.  But actually our people were

16     wounded near the station.

17             When this happened I remember very well.  As far as I remember,

18     there were 30 tonnes of oil that leaked from the station, and it's

19     something that we were storing near the airport.  We had received this

20     from --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch from whom --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is how the transformer

23     station was supplied with this oil.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  One second, please.

25             Could we first seek -- you told us about the 30 tonnes of oil

Page 21455

 1     that leaked from the station and you had received this from whom or from

 2     what?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was personally there.  I

 4     went when this happened, and so, yes --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You spoke so quickly that the interpreters did not

 6     hear what you said.  "We -- we had received this from," and then they

 7     failed to hear what you then said.  Could you please repeat that.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received the oil from UNPROFOR,

 9     the oil that we used once the transformer station was repaired.  We got

10     it through them because it was impossible for us to obtain it because of

11     the money, transport, and all these things.  But throughout that whole

12     period, the water supply system was inoperative as well.  Nothing could

13     work.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing I asked you is to repeat from whom

15     you got that oil.  The simple answer, therefore, is from UNPROFOR.

16             Carefully listen to the next question Mr. Ivetic will put to you

17     and focus your answer on the question, rather than telling us the whole

18     story of the war, which I can imagine is on your mind, but you're here to

19     give answers to these questions.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Did the Bosnian Muslim side offer any assistance in repairing the

23     transfer station?

24        A.   No, there was no offer of help.

25        Q.   And in item 1 of this document, there is discussion that on this

Page 21456

 1     occasion the ABiH also struck the hospital and other civilian facilities.

 2     Does this document accord with your recollection of this incident?

 3        A.   I remember it vividly because this shelling was a specific case,

 4     and that's why I remember it.  There was a policeman, Zeljko Knezovic.

 5     In the same day, his father and mother were killed, and they died at the

 6     Zica hospital where the civilians were being treated because of this.

 7     There were other wounded and other people who died as well, but I just

 8     happen to remember this particular case of Zeljko.  There were other such

 9     cases, though.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would move --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm a bit lost again by looking at this

12     document.  Because you asked a question in relation to the Muslim side

13     providing false information to UNPROFOR.  Could you assist me in finding

14     that in the report by the Ilidza Brigade Command under number 1, because

15     as far as I can see, it doesn't say anything about reporting to UNPROFOR

16     so --

17             MR. IVETIC:  No, Your Honour.  It's the statement of the witness

18     in paragraph 16 where he says:

19             "On this occasion, the Muslim side falsely informed the UNPROFOR

20     that we were the ones who had cut off their electrical supply."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me have a look.  Yes, yes, I misread.  I

22     focussed on 15, and I should have carefully read 16 as well.

23             Nevertheless, the reporting here -- oh, you just wanted to say

24     this was the incident related to what the witness said about the

25     reporting.

Page 21457

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us anything about the report itself?

 3     How did they report it to UNPROFOR?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I answer?  Mr. Ivetic,

 5     should I answer?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You should answer because I put the question to you,

 7     yes.  Yes --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I apologise.  I'm sorry.

 9             The usual line of reporting of UNPROFOR would go from the

10     battalion up to the brigade level.  From the brigade, up to the corps

11     level.  The corps would inform --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking about how usually reporting went on.

13     What I'm asking you is what you could tell us exactly about the way in

14     which the Muslim side reported this incident to UNPROFOR.  What did they

15     exactly say?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They told UNPROFOR that we had

17     shelled the transformer station briefly.  But actually it was a total

18     lie.  When the UNPROFOR members went to the scene --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's keep it to that.  I -- have you seen a written

20     report, or what -- how do you know exactly that they blamed you for this

21     shelling?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because UNPROFOR, when they came to

23     us, they told us this.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.  You were told by UNPROFOR.

25     And what did UNPROFOR, then, exactly say they had reported?

Page 21458

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said that we had fired at the

 2     transformer station.  But then when we went to the scene, experts for

 3     mortar weapons and artillery weapons, together with UNPROFOR, determined

 4     that the shots - there were a number of them - the shots had come from

 5     the Muslim side.  And since there were UNPROFOR observers next to all of

 6     our weapons, all we did was say to them:  Well, why don't you just ask

 7     your people if we had fired from anywhere?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, last question in this context.  This

 9     transformer station, was it situated in an area controlled by the

10     Bosnian Serb Army or by the Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation Army?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was under the control of the

12     Army of Republika Srpska.  It was on our territory, on Serb territory.

13     In the area of Blazuj.  That was the precise location.  Close to the

14     Bosna river source.  And that's what the station was called, Vrelo Bosne.

15     But then it was exposed to fire from the Muslim side from all directions.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you were blamed for firing at an

17     installation which they said was on your own -- of the territory --

18     territory controlled by yourself.  Is that ...

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But that was not the first

20     false accusation.  It was one in a series of such false accusations by

21     the Muslim side.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

23             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  I would tender 1D02085 into evidence.

24             MR. GROOME:  Is Mr. Ivetic able to provide any provenance

25     information?  I can't seem to locate where the document came from.

Page 21459

 1             MR. IVETIC:  There appears to be a stamp from the Galic case in

 2     the upper right-hand corner of the B/C/S original.  It was disclosed to

 3     us in that form and the translation appears to be a CLSS translation.  So

 4     I would surmise that this was used in the Galic case.  We got it off the

 5     EDS.

 6             MR. GROOME:  Your Honour, can I ask that it be marked for

 7     identification to just give us an opportunity to investigate where the

 8     document came from?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections, I take it, Mr. Ivetic.

10             MR. IVETIC:  No, no objections.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Merely technical verification.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2085 receives number D471,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Is marked for identification --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification.  I apologise.  It's

19     time for me to take a break, I think.

20             We'll take a break, Witness, and we'd like to see you back in

21     20 minutes.  You may now follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 1.30.

24                           --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

Page 21460

 1             MR. IVETIC:  While we wait for the witness, Your Honour, I can

 2     also give Mr. Groome additional information about 1D02085.  That was

 3     admitted as Exhibit D02510 in the Karadzic case.

 4             MR. GROOME:  Thank you for that information.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it, Mr. Groome, that we'll hear within the

 6     next two or three court days about your position about this document.

 7             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you may continue your examination.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, sir.

12             If we could return to the written statement, Exhibit D00468.  And

13     if we can look at page 3 in both languages.

14        Q.   While we wait for that, sir, I can introduce it.  In this

15     paragraph, paragraph 6, you talk about the lorry filled with weapons that

16     you ran into outside of your apartment building.  And I would like to ask

17     you if this is the only such incident that you have personal knowledge of

18     near your home of weapons being shipped clandestinely prior to the

19     outbreak of the war?

20        A.   That's not the only case.  There were other cases.  There was me

21     and then I reported that to the police station opposite my house.  This

22     other case was when I was with Boro Ivanisevic, my neighbour from the

23     11th floor.  The third case was this information from my very own

24     brother.  At that time, he was a senior inspector at the police station

25     in Hadzici.  That is the first station, the first municipality right next

Page 21461

 1     to Ilidza.  And they caught this -- or, rather, captured this truck full

 2     of ammunition and weapons, Muslim, of course --

 3        Q.   I'd like to take them one by one sir.

 4             Could I first ask you to provide us the details of the other

 5     incident that you identify in reference to your neighbour from the

 6     11th floor.

 7        A.   We saw this vehicle then.  As far as I can remember, it was a

 8     Zastava; 3 and a half tonnes.  You could see that inside there were

 9     wooden boxes with military equipment.  I mean, rifles are kept in boxes

10     like that.  So that was that incident.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now can you tell us of the details of the incident

12     involving your brother, the police inspector at Hadzici.

13        A.   A subordinate policeman of his, Camur, an ethnic Serb, he was on

14     duty near the quarry.  There is this quarry near the exit out of Hadzici

15     and then policemen were often on duty there.  On that day, he realised

16     that there was a freight truck there escorted by a police vehicle but the

17     police vehicle did not have rotating lights.  And that intrigued him and

18     that made him suspicious, didn't have rotating lights, and any police

19     vehicle would have to have that when escorting this kind of truck and

20     also they couldn't have been on in that case.  And then he stopped these

21     colleagues and said:  Who are you escorting and what?  And they said:

22     Flour.  And then he said:  Since when do people give a police escort to

23     flour?  And then that made him suspicious and he lifted this tarpaulin

24     and then he saw these boxes with rifles.

25             He informed my brother and the commander of the police station

Page 21462

 1     and -- you used a Motorola to inform my brother, who was his superior,

 2     and also the commander of the police station, a Serb, because he knew

 3     that these were Muslims.  He recognised them.  And also this police

 4     escort, these policemen were too.  And then the secretary of the

 5     committee came and the president of the municipality.  They were Muslims.

 6     And these guys were locked up there.  I mean, it was right there on this

 7     spot.

 8             They convinced them that they should all go back to the police

 9     station in Hadzici and that's about 700 metres -- that is about 700 to

10     800 metres from the police station, that they should go back and then the

11     policemen would take this vehicle and go back to the station.  And these

12     people obeyed them because they didn't want to create a conflict right

13     there on the spot, and they believed that that is what would happen

14     ultimately.  But there were no -- there were no divisions yet, concrete

15     ones, between the policemen, Serbs and Muslims.  The Serbs believed that

16     the Muslims would honour their word.

17        Q.   Sir, at the end of the day, what happened to that lorry that was

18     discovered with the rifles in the escort of a police vehicle without

19     rotating lights?

20        A.   Well, it simply disappeared.  This truck never came to the police

21     station.  It just went along and went to the Muslim population that it

22     had been intended for in the first place.

23        Q.   I would now like to draw your attention --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

Page 21463

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, what you're telling us is what you heard

 2     from your brother, or do you have any personal knowledge of these events?

 3     That is --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about this from my brother

 5     and his colleague, Tiho Glavas.  He was the commander of the station in

 6     Hadzici.  It's not a secret so I can mention his name.  And also directly

 7     from this Camur who stopped all of this.  So all of this is first-hand,

 8     if you can put it that way.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I would call it second-hand if you hear it

10     from them, but let's not argue about that.

11             Please proceed.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just ask for a clarification.

13             You said in a previous answer:  Well, the truck simply

14     disappeared.

15             How do you know that it went to the Muslim population if it just

16     disappeared?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because of what I said.  The

18     Muslim policemen were escorting this vehicle and also this freight

19     vehicle, the driver and the person accompanying him all of -- all of them

20     were Muslims.  So it's a very realistic assumption, that they went to

21     where it had been intended for and to whom it had been intended.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So I take it, it's your assumption?  Thank you.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   I would now like to draw your focus on the time-period after the

25     war already began.  And do you have any personal knowledge of weapons or

Page 21464

 1     ammunition being clandestinely transported to the Bosnian Muslims during

 2     that time-period?

 3        A.   I have several personal experiences of ammunition being

 4     transported to Muslims.

 5             One of these cases was when we stopped a UNHCR convoy.  When we

 6     lifted the container there on the trailer, and underneath, as far as I

 7     can remember now, about 30 ammunition boxes were found there for

 8     anti-aircraft guns, Brownings, and sniper ammunition was found as well

 9     and infantry ammunition too.  This is one case.

10             Now, there was this other case.  I was personally present when,

11     in this convoy that was taking humanitarian aid to Sarajevo, we also

12     found ammunition for snipers and for Brownings and even some weapons too.

13             The next case was --

14        Q.   Finish the next case.  Then I'd like to ask you a question about

15     additional information about this.

16        A.   Yes.  I personally also realised that UNPROFOR vehicles that had

17     Brownings on them, say, 30 APCs, would get in and they would all have

18     these heavy machine-guns, and when they would leave town, even during a

19     routine control, military policemen told us, and I personally saw some of

20     these situations, ten or 15 Brownings would be missing in a convoy of

21     30 vehicles.

22             Now let me tell you about this proportion, where they

23     disappeared, these Brownings.  We asked them and they told us that

24     Muslims seized them in the town of Sarajevo.

25        Q.   I'd like -- I'd like to go back to the -- you talked about

Page 21465

 1     stopping UNHCR convoys.  On how many occasions were you able to confirm

 2     that UNHCR convoys were being used to clandestinely transport weapons to

 3     the Bosnian Muslim side?

 4        A.   Several times.  But twice we confirmed this.  By having these TV

 5     cameras there that were on the spot.  Actually, we managed to get them

 6     there and then they managed to film this.

 7             So several times.  But then we have these two documented cases,

 8     as we call it.  I would sometimes be out in the field.  Then the military

 9     police would find this, even without me.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, can I just clarify one point before it

11     disappears from the screen.

12             Sir, at page -- at page 73, starting from line 22, you say:

13             "Yes, I personally also realised that UNPROFOR vehicles that had

14     Brownings on them, say 30 APCs would get in ..."

15             I'm not quite sure how the APCs are connected with the UNPROFOR

16     vehicles.  Can you explain that a little bit?  I just see that little

17     phrase, "say, 30 APCs," getting thrown into that sentence and I'm not

18     quite sure what it means, how the two are connected.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are APCs, transporters that

20     UNPROFOR takes.  No dilemma.  I really don't understand.  I'm so sorry.

21     What is it that you don't understand?  These are APCs, transporters of

22     UNPROFOR that usually had Brownings or anti-aircraft guns mounted on

23     them.  But there were APCs that had anti-aircraft guns of 20-millimetres.

24     However, these were those that were supposed to transport personnel and

25     they had Brownings on them.  Brownings are heavy machine-guns or, rather,

Page 21466

 1     anti-aircraft guns, but then they can also be used to fire at

 2     artillery -- at infantry too, at any rate.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask a follow-up question about the same

 4     answer you gave.

 5             You say you personally also realised that UNPROFOR vehicles that

 6     had Brownings on them, say, 30 APCs, would get in, and they would all

 7     have these heavy machine-guns.  I do understand that they were equipped

 8     with these guns.  And when they would leave town, even during a routine

 9     control, military policemen told us, and you saw some of these

10     situations, ten or 15 Brownings would be missing in a convoy of

11     30 vehicles.

12             Is it your testimony that it's your assumption, that since they

13     did not have all those Brownings on these vehicles when they left town,

14     that they must have been left with the Muslims?  Is that how I have to

15     understand your testimony?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Mr. President.

17     Precisely.  Because we checked the vehicles, and they were not in the

18     vehicles.  And then we wrote written reports about that to our command.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the -- the factual part of your statement

20     is you saw APCs leaving town without these heavy machine-guns mounted on

21     it.  That's the facts that you observed.  What explained that, whether

22     they were under repair, or whether they were taken by Muslims, or whether

23     they were just -- you -- do you have any knowledge about that, or is it

24     just your observation that you saw them without these Brownings?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were not being repaired.

Page 21467

 1     Because UNPROFOR soldiers themselves told us that, allegedly, Muslims had

 2     seized these weapons from them in town.  This information was obtained

 3     from UNPROFOR soldiers.  So there's no assumption there that they were

 4     being repaired.  Allegedly they were seized from them.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  They were stolen, if I understand you -- well,

 6     they were stolen by the Muslims from UNPROFOR.  Yes -- well, that

 7     clarifies part of your answer.

 8             Then the other matter is the recorded incidents of smuggling

 9     weapons.  You said two were recorded.  The others were not recorded.  Do

10     you mean to say not recorded by a camera, or were they not recorded, were

11     they not documented in the hierarchical lines and -- I mean, the two you

12     observed yourself, Mr. -- yes, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good question.  And let me explain.

14     Twice I said that we recorded this, as far as I know.  I happened to be

15     there when we captured them, if I can put it this way.  Actually when we

16     caught them smuggling for Muslims, ammunition.  That was filmed on

17     camera.

18             Then there was this other case when this would be recorded in

19     writing, and our superior command would always be informed about that.

20     So it's not that it was unrecorded.  It was recorded but in writing, not

21     on camera.  That's what I meant.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And then complaints were lodged, I take it, at the

23     UNPROFOR Command?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A higher command, yes, that was

25     authorised to have relations with UNPROFOR.

Page 21468

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I'd like to take look

 4     video.  1D00358.  Transcripts have been provided to the booths.  We have,

 5     I believe, played this video with prior witnesses during the Prosecution

 6     case so I don't know whether we still need to do it twice.  Shall we

 7     play --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that where it is recorded how the contraband was

 9     detected in --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We could --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before, the number of the ID has not been

13     recorded.  Can you just make sure we've got it.

14             MR. IVETIC:  1D00358.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, perhaps a good compromise would be if

18     you would just play it and we can -- of course the text spoken can be --

19     it is in evidence already, I do understand, but it refreshes our memory

20     as --

21             MR. IVETIC:  It's not in evidence yet.  It's was only --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not in evidence.

23             MR. IVETIC:  No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It has been played but not in evidence.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I believe it was played with respect to Prosecution

Page 21469

 1     witnesses who could not offer confirmation of the location, the date or

 2     the incident.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So it would make sense if this witness would

 4     have been present at that moment.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then let's have a look at it.

 7             Should it be played twice?  Is there any -- is it text spoken --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  There is text spoken, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have to play it twice.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Twice.  No problem.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             MR. IVETIC:  There seems to be an issue with the video.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because it's moving up and down.  The picture

15     is not showing exactly -- of course, we saw a few -- a few pictures where

16     apparently ammunition was shown to the camera.  Now we see different

17     pictures.  We've seen this before.  What's the length of the whole of

18     the --

19             MR. IVETIC:  Two minutes, Your Honours.  Two minutes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Two minutes.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we've looked at it for more than two minutes

23     already.  I -- yes, I don't know -- Mr. Groome.

24             MR. GROOME:  Certainly if Mr. Ivetic wants to go forward, I would

25     have no objection to him reopening his direct examination when he can

Page 21470

 1     sort out the technical problems.

 2             Can I ask, last time this was shown, at transcript 3836, the

 3     Defence said they were still trying to determine the date of the video,

 4     has that been done yet?

 5             MR. IVETIC:  The witness is hopefully the one who can provide us

 6     that information --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could we -- we want to see it in its entirety

 8     later but we could already ask the witness whether he recognises anything

 9     he has seen.

10             Witness, this video, there are some technical problems, but I

11     take it that you were able to at least see something, boxes being opened,

12     ammunition being -- in those boxes.  Does -- have you been present

13     during -- at this moment at that place?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was present -- I was providing a

15     statement there because journalists asked me questions.  Since that was

16     a --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  I take it step by step.  Does that mean

18     that we could see you in the video?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No, not in this clip, no.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Not in this clip.  Do you remember where this was?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I do.  It was in Ilidza,

22     very close to Kasindolska Street.  It happened in the spring of 1993.  I

23     remember that very well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any further details?  Spring could

25     still cover three months, but do you know whether -- what month it was?

Page 21471

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this could have been

 2     in late March or mid-April.  As far as I can remember, that would have

 3     been the period.  There were thousands of events in the war, so it's very

 4     hard to remember the exact dates.  And there were very many similar

 5     cases.  They were cases when we found shells in their APCs as well as

 6     ammunition --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you whether you knew where it was, when it

 8     was, and you've answered that question.

 9             Mr. Ivetic, I suggest that you try to resolve the -- the

10     technical issue and that, meanwhile, we proceed.  At least we have now a

11     basis -- perhaps for further questions to the witness.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   I'd like to follow up with something you just started talking

16     about.  You talked about cases where you found shells in their APCs.

17     Could you tell us, please, what you are talking about, whose APCs, and

18     what did you find.

19        A.   We found shells, 81-millimetre mortar shells.  That's a standard

20     NATO calibre.  We found them in UNPROFOR vehicles, and those vehicles

21     belonged to the French Battalion which was deployed in Butmir airport, in

22     the base there.  There was a verbal argument.  We did not allow them to

23     proceed because mortar shells of that calibre did not belong to the APC,

24     which meant that they were being taken for the Muslims, who would have

25     then shelled our civilians, our children.  And I personally --

Page 21472

 1        Q.   If I can interrupt -- if I can interrupt.  Could you explain for

 2     us, when you say "mortar shells of that calibre did not belong to the

 3     APC," what are you trying to say?  What does that mean?  Was the APC

 4     equipped with mortar -- with a mortar launcher?

 5        A.   No.  Those APCs were not equipped with mortars.  They have

 6     infantry weapons, i.e., the APC crews have mortars [as interpreted] and

 7     12.7-millimetre Browning machine-gun rounds.  Everything else that was

 8     found on an APC was being smuggled to the Muslim side in Sarajevo or

 9     outside of Sarajevo for that matter.

10        Q.   If I can ask clarification, sir.  In the transcript at page 81,

11     line 2, you have said that the AP crews had mortars and 12.7-millimetre

12     Browning machine-gun rounds.  Is that accurate, sir?  Did the APCs have

13     mortars affixed to them the -- the --

14        A.   No.  Just the opposite what I said.  They did not have mortars

15     and that proves that any mortar rounds found on any APC was being

16     smuggled.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Simple question:  Did UNPROFOR have any

18     mortars?  To your knowledge.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] UNPROFOR did have mortars, but they

20     were in mortar positions.  However, that type of APCs did -- were not

21     equipped with mortars.  And when we intervened, we called the corps

22     command, and then the corps command called the battalion command in

23     Butmir, and it turned out that they did it independently and they had to

24     return to the base, which also proves that those rounds were intended for

25     the Muslims and were being smuggled to them.

Page 21473

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Tell us what you observed, what you saw, what you

 2     heard, and don't tell us what all that proves.  Because it's for the

 3     parties to argue what this proves or does not prove, and it's for this

 4     Chamber to decide what the evidence proves.

 5             So just limit yourself to what you saw, preferably personally saw

 6     or heard from others, and don't draw any conclusions, because that

 7     confuses the Chamber slightly.

 8             Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Did you have occasion to find out about any other incidents of

11     ammunition or explosives being transported in humanitarian aid or

12     humanitarian equipment?

13        A.   As I've already told you, there were many such cases, and one of

14     them was very typical.  Another relative of mine, who was a member of the

15     border police, found things in oxygen containers.  This was also recorded

16     by a video camera.  We're talking about very large containers that can

17     contain between 100 and 200 kilos of explosive.  There was gunpowder and

18     explosives in them, and during the control it was established that --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You did not personally observe that, did you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was my cousin.  However, I

21     saw it on TV and I heard it from my cousin personally.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if there is any documentation recording

23     of that, and it comes to my mind - I've forgotten much from the past -

24     but somewhere in the back of my mind it says that oxygen bottles were

25     recorded and documented.  Rather than to hear second-hand from this

Page 21474

 1     witness who has not observed it personally, perhaps we could look at that

 2     evidence.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honour, our goal is to try to corroborate

 4     those documents with hearsay testimony which, I believe, the

 5     jurisprudence of the Tribunal does allow and which the Prosecution relied

 6     on heavily.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I noticed that this witness says that he

 8     heard from his brother and saw on television about oxygen bottles, and

 9     that already is a corroboration.  And I think it was not argued that this

10     is not permissible.  Yes.  But whether we should hear all the details,

11     but you leave it in your hands.  It's your time.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Although it's almost over, your time but --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  More than over, says my colleague.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   If I could turn to page 7 of your statement, which is D468,

18     paragraph 28 of the same, in relation to G10 in Hrasnica mentions a

19     Fikret Pljevljak.

20             MR. IVETIC:  I would like it turn to Exhibit D00156 in e-court.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is under seal, Your Honours.

22             MR. IVETIC:  If we could -- perhaps if we could go into private

23     session briefly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

25                           [Private session]

Page 21475











11  Page 21475 redacted.  Private session.















Page 21476

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Can we please have P0592 in e-court.

18        Q.   While we wait for the same, I could introduce it to tell that you

19     it is dated the 6th of April, 1995, and originates from General Milosevic

20     and is sent to your brigade.  It is an order to prepare an aerial bomb

21     and says:

22             "The most profitable target must be selected in Hrasnica or

23     Sokolovic colony where the greatest casualties and material damage would

24     be inflicted."

25             Can you tell me how such an order would be interpreted and

Page 21477

 1     implemented by your brigade upon its receipt?

 2        A.   In view of the fact that we were constantly warned by the

 3     commander of the VRS and from the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

 4     that we should adhere to Geneva Conventions, that we had to comply with

 5     rules of war, this would exclusively apply to military targets and it did

 6     apply to military targets and nothing else.  Civilian targets were

 7     absolutely excluded from this order.  That was the stance of our

 8     Main Staff, the corps command, and us in the brigade, in the battalions.

 9     All the time civilians had to be protected and excluded from military

10     activities, and this order can only be explained in that way, because

11     that was the only way to achieve the desired effect.

12        Q.   Just to be clear, can this order be properly understood or

13     interpreted as ordering the use of bombs against civilian personnel from

14     a military standpoint, in your opinion?

15        A.   Absolutely not.  Not at all.  The use against civilian population

16     is absolutely excluded, not only in terms of aerial bombs.  We were

17     forbidden to open fire on personnel in -- not wearing uniform, let alone

18     civilians.

19        Q.   Very briefly, sir, what can you tell me about the casualties

20     suffered by your brigade and by civilians in the Ilidza municipality

21     during the war?

22        A.   In my brigade, we had 460 dead, 2.150 wounded, of whom several

23     hundred seriously wounded.  About 400 civilians were -- were killed in

24     Serbian Ilidza, most of them children.  This bears witness to the

25     fighting and the kind of fighting the Ilidza Brigade was engaged in.  We

Page 21478

 1     had four brigades of Muslims, 101st, 102nd, 103rd, and 105th

 2     Muslim Brigades on our separation line --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please be asked to slow down.

 4             MR. IVETIC:

 5        Q.   Please speak slowly.

 6        A.   Thank you.  Our final number was 2.000.  There were six enemy

 7     offensives that were launched against the Serbian Ilidza.  Why so many

 8     offensives in Serbian Ilidza?

 9        Q.   If I can interrupt.  Could you clarify for us how many enemy

10     offensives were launched against Ilidza by the enemy?  The number.  How

11     many?

12        A.   36.  36.  I don't know if you heard me the first time around.

13        Q.   One last question for you, sir.  Based on your knowledge, how

14     many potential military targets would you have known to have existed on

15     the part of the territory controlled by the ABiH in Sarajevo; and what do

16     you base that assessment on?

17        A.   About 1.000 military targets existed in Sarajevo and I based that

18     assessment on the following.  The commander of the 1st Corps of the

19     BiH Army, which controlled Sarajevo, stated before this Tribunal that

20     they had between 75.000 and 80.000 people under arms --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please be asked to slow down.

22             MR. IVETIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You have to speak slowly for the interpreters to be able to do

24     their job.

25        A.   Thank you.  25 brigades with four battalions.  That's

Page 21479

 1     100 battalions each.  A battalion had four companies.  And that means

 2     400 command posts all together, ranging from companies to brigades.  If

 3     we assume that each of the brigades has a minimum of 20 heavy pieces of

 4     artillery, that is 500, plus 400, that's 900, and if we know that during

 5     the war Sarajevo --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand your explanation.

 7             Mr. Ivetic, I'm also looking at the clock.  Apparently what the

 8     witness tells us is that he deduces the number of potential military

 9     targets by analysing the number of troops and the way in which they were

10     organised and then draws his conclusions --

11             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on the basis of that.  If that is the

13     explanation, then we have understood it.  Even without going into further

14     details, we know the type of --

15             MR. IVETIC:  Then I'm happy to stop.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             We have to adjourn for the day.  Do you have any further

18     questions for the witness?  You'd announced that as the last question.

19             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, that was the last question.  I just

20     have the videotape that hopefully I will figure out and then rest

21     the [overlapping speakers] --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll see that.

23             Witness, Mr. Mijatovic, we adjourn for the day and we will resume

24     on Monday, after the weekend, at 9.30 in the morning.  I would like to

25     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about

Page 21480

 1     your testimony, whether that is testimony you have already given or

 2     testimony still to be given on Monday.  There's a fair chance that we

 3     would conclude your testimony on Monday.

 4             You may follow the usher.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I could -- could Victims and Witness Section explain

 7     to the witness over the weekend that greeting of the accused is not

 8     something one does as a witness when entering or leaving the courtroom.

 9             Then we adjourn for the day, and we will resume, the 26th of May,

10     Monday, the 26th of May, at 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom,

11     I.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of May,

14                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.