1 Friday, 30 May 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 While we are waiting for him, could I briefly deal with the
13 following matter: The Prosecution requested - and I'm talking about
14 Exhibit D471 - that the Defence provide them with information concerning
15 the provenance of that document which was MFI'd. The Chamber would like
16 to know whether the Prosecution has received the necessary information,
17 and if so, whether in light of that information it has any objections to
18 the admission of D471.
19 MR. GROOME: Good morning, Your Honours. No, we have not. But
20 I'll address that with Mr. Lukic during the first break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear from you.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dzida.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
1 WITNESS: MILORAD DZIDA [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzida, I would like to remind you that you are
4 still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the
5 beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole
6 truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 Mr. Stojanovic will now continue his examination.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, following up on
9 yesterday's questioning of the witness, I propose that after you decided
10 to admit his statement that you also admit document 65 ter 09142 as an
11 attachment to the statement.
12 MR. WEBER: No objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Weber.
14 One second, please. The Chamber just will verify what exactly it
15 is. It is an associated exhibit and it is -- let me have a look. It's
16 the document of the 4th Corps Command, strictly confidential. Yes, no
18 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 9142 receives number D491, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D491 is admitted.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will read a brief summary of
23 the evidence of Witness Milorad Dzida, and I will ask him a few short
24 questions later.
25 Witness Milorad Dzida was a company commander in the
1 215th Mountain Brigade of the 4th Corps of the JNA at the outbreak of the
2 war. From the 9th of August, 1993, after he had been wounded several
3 times, he was reassigned to the 7th Battalion of the 1st Romanija Brigade
4 to the duty of the deputy commander for intelligence at which position he
5 remained until the 17th of October, 1994. He then took over the duty of
6 the battalion commander at Nisici where he remained until the end of the
8 The witness talks about the duties which he received from the
9 command of the 7th Battalion on the 6th of February, 1994, after the
10 incident at the Markale market. He says that, as an intelligence
11 officer, he took a team comprising the representatives of the Main Staff
12 of the VRS, the SRK, the UNPROFOR, and his brigade to the firing position
13 of the 120-millimetre mortar. He had the occasion to hear the words of
14 the interpreter, who was a member of the UNPROFOR team, that it was not
15 possible that on the previous day it was fired from these weapons.
16 Warrant Officer Jakovljevic, who was a member of the team, drew up
17 reports about this incident for the needs of the SRK on behalf of the
19 Witness Dzida further testifies that several days later, a group
20 of UNPROFOR officers carried out inspection once again together with a
21 female interpreter. When the officers inquired, she interpreted the
22 words of the French major who said that the 7th Battalion had nothing to
23 do with the incident at Markale.
24 Further, the witness points out that they had strict orders to
25 observe any cease-fire or truce and that the fire of his battalion was
1 always aimed at firing positions of the enemy and never at civilians or
2 civilian facilities. The civilians in the city could only be hit if
3 military targets were targeted and if such targets were located close to
4 civilian facilities.
5 He also testifies about the way that the opposing side waged war,
6 pointing out that the forces of the 1st Corps of the Army of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina were far superior with regards to manpower, mentioning
8 as an example that facing his battalion was the 110th Brigade of the
9 1st Corps of the Army of the BiH.
10 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
11 Q. [Interpretation] In the statement, which you accepted as true and
12 correct yesterday and today, you talk about having had the occasion to
13 learn about the fact that members of paramilitary formations, who were
14 ethnic Muslims, were being armed. Could you tell me, where did you
15 receive such information and were you personally familiar with such
17 A. I had a couple of --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
19 Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: If you don't mind, since there is two bases of
21 knowledge in that question, if he could please separate them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you please split up your
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
25 Q. The first question which I would like to ask you is whether you
1 had personal and direct information about these events.
2 A. I had personal and direct information about these events in the
3 building where I lived. In December, bars were placed in the common
4 basements in the building and the residents could no longer enter this
5 area. You had to address two people if you wanted to take what -- the
6 food that you had prepared for the winter. So on the 6th of January I
7 could see for myself because I had a conflict with the president of the
8 residents union.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please slow down when you speak
11 because your speed of speech is such that the interpreters cannot follow
13 You said you had a conflict with the president of the residents
14 union. Please proceed and finish your answer.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the tenants council, yes.
16 Because I -- I could not leave in the basement my winter preserves.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you tell the Court what you found in the basement?
19 A. Yes, they placed weapons there during the night and there were
20 bars on the door so nobody could enter. When I went to the police
21 station to report this, we never received any response from them. After
22 me, a neighbour also reported this, and five or six days later we had
23 still not received any answer. I know, I heard from Radomir Neskovic who
24 was detained there, he had remained in my apartment, I heard from him
25 that weapons were being kept down there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You said that this all happened in December.
2 December of what year, Mr. Dzida?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] December 1991, late December 1991.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Would you please tell the Court if you learned indirectly
7 anything about where the paramilitary formations that you talked about,
8 the Patriotic League and the Green Berets, were being trained for the
9 forthcoming war events?
10 A. Well, the training was conducted in an area in Trebevic. The
11 place is called Dobro Vode, and then the Unica hotel at Igman, also the
12 Mraziste and Igman hotels. My colleague, Mustafa Gegaj, spent quite a
13 long time at training in Igman, and during the war he worked as deputy
14 commander in charge of intelligence in the Hrasnica Brigade. There were
15 several colleagues who spent 15 to 20 days at the training sessions.
16 Q. Where do you have this information from?
17 A. I learned this because Mustafa was absent from work for two and a
18 half months, and then later, there was also a man who used to work in the
19 MUP and remained in Hrasnica. He published a book and the book includes
20 Gegaj's picture. It's called "Hrasnicka Golgota" or
21 "The Hrasnica Passion."
22 Q. I will now ask you about the period in 1994 when you performed
23 the duty as the deputy commander of the 7th Battalion for intelligence.
24 As a unit, was your zone of defence attacked by the Army of BiH?
25 A. Yes, on several occasions. I remember the two most tragic
1 attacks that they launched. One was on the 27th of May, 1994. That was
2 when six of our men got killed at Zecija Glava and we had seven or eight
3 wounded. Of the six men, four had been hit in the eye, in the head, that
4 is to say. I even remember some of their names, if you would like to
5 hear that.
6 The other attack that they launched took place on the
7 18th of September, 1994. They then launched an attack along the entire
8 line and the thrust was against two companies, the 4th and the
9 1st Companies, that is. And in both companies, around seven men got
10 killed. And we also had some losses at Spicaste Stijene.
11 Q. You have mentioned the Spicaste Stijene location. While you were
12 performing the duty in the 7th Battalion, were any other attacks launched
13 at the Spicaste Stijene positions by the ABiH?
14 A. Most attacks were directed at the Spicaste Stijene location.
15 There is a cave there and across from the cave and -- there is also a
16 wooded area, so these parts are somewhat forward and they were the
17 targets of attack. We couldn't carry out reconnaissance properly --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
19 Mr. Weber.
20 MR. WEBER: Maybe I'm missing it, but if Mr. Stojanovic could
21 assist me where he discusses Spicaste Stijene.
22 JUDGE ORIE: In the statement, you mean.
23 MR. WEBER: Yes. If I'm missing -- if I'm missing it, I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, Spicaste Stijene, where does it
25 appear in the statement? Or in the 65 ter summary, I take it.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's paragraph 24
2 of his statement, only now it's been expanded in this answer. It's been
3 expanded with this place name, but he does discuss the area.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You mean that the casualties described in May 1994,
5 that is the events, and it very much looks like it, on the 27th of May,
6 and that apart from that, locations mentioned which are not far away from
7 Spicaste Stijene.
8 MR. WEBER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The link is clear now. Please proceed.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,
11 Your Honour. I will finish by this. Let me just ask one more question.
12 Q. As for the place names that you talked, Zecija Glava, Faletici,
13 where was the area that you called Spicaste Stijene located?
14 A. Across from Vasin Han, it's 8 to 9 kilometres from
15 Spicaste Stijene across the defence area covered by my battalion.
16 Q. Was your battalion specifically in charge of the Spicaste Stijene
18 A. Yes, it was, the 1st Company.
19 Q. Thank you for your answers, Mr. Dzida. I have no more questions
20 for you.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Before we give an
23 opportunity to start the cross-examination of the witness.
24 Mr. Dzida, could you tell us how often approximately, as far as
25 you know, did the ABiH forces try to take control over Spicaste Stijene?
1 So I'm not talking about exchange of fire but I'm talking about an
2 attempt to take control.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood. They tried to
4 do that on several occasions. They even managed twice to take away parts
5 of Spicaste Stijene from us and then we managed to recapture them. Later
6 on we placed a wire fence that could stop their rockets.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm mainly interested in how many times. You said
8 they succeeded twice and you then regained it. Apart from these
9 successful attempts, how many attempts were there which then likely were
10 unsuccessful? Was it three, was it ten, was it 20?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were many a number, but I
12 can't remember the exact number. Quite a few attacks against
13 Spicaste Stijene.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Some people would consider 20 quite a number, others
15 would consider five quite a number, others would consider -- could you
16 approximate, even if you don't know the exact number? Was it closer to
17 five than it was to ten or closer to twenty or -- if you remember. If
18 you say: I can't answer the question --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whenever they attempted to launch
20 an attack against the zone of responsibility of the 7th Battalion, it was
21 always via Spicaste Stijene. At least 15 times, if not more. But I'm
22 certain it wasn't fewer than that. And these were quite violent attacks.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
25 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzida, you'll now be cross-examined by
2 Mr. Weber. You find Mr. Weber to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for
3 the Prosecution.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzida.
8 A. Good morning, sir.
9 Q. In paragraph 4 of your statement you indicate that you were
10 wounded on two occasions. With respect to your first wounding, on the
11 4th of May, 1992, how long were you away from your duties with this
13 MR. WEBER: Judge, I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzida, what -- do you have anything in front of
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is all typed and signed.
17 Typed text.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you are -- Mr. Weber, I can imagine that if
19 you refer to a certain paragraph of the statement, then the witness may
20 want to read the statement because you refer to it.
21 But would you -- is that your statement, Mr. Dzida, which you
22 have in front of you?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, any notes on it or is it just the typewritten
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are some minor corrections
2 where there were typos, but I won't be using it because I'm quite
3 familiar with what it contains more or less.
4 On the 3rd of May --
5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Please put them away and don't consult
6 them unless you have asked permission for that.
7 Mr. Weber, whenever you refer to a paragraph, make sure that the
8 witness understands exactly what you're talking about.
9 MR. WEBER: Of course. And, Your Honours, I'm mainly referring
10 to the paragraph for the record's sake.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. WEBER: I can ask the question without the reference to the
13 paragraph, just because it's pretty simple information.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you could first put your question and
15 then say for the Court the paragraphs also.
16 MR. WEBER: Of course, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
18 MR. WEBER: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you about your first wounding on the
22 4th of May, 1992. How long were you away from your duties with this
24 A. On the 3rd of May, 1994, my unit received a task to go to the
25 Jewish cemetery sector in order to secure the withdrawal from the
1 Marshal Tito barracks. It was the 4th Corps of the JNA --
2 Q. Sir -- sorry to cut you off, sir, but if you could please listen
3 to my question.
4 It appears in your statement that you were injured on the
5 4th of May, 1992. I'm just simply asking you how long you were out with
6 that injury. We can see the information that you're providing is part of
7 your statement already. There is no need to repeat that. If you could
8 just tell me how long were you out with that injury.
9 A. I was wounded on the 4th of May, 1992. I returned to the unit on
10 crutches after the medical treatment.
11 JUDGE ORIE: When was that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 4th of May in 1992 at
13 quarter to 6.00 a.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now just to be sure: You were wounded on that day
15 and you returned on that same day, with crutches, to your unit? Is that
16 how I have to understand your testimony?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the same day, after four or
18 five hours of receiving treatment at the hospital, I returned to my unit
19 because I knew -- I had a doctor in my unit.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to be as efficient as possible, and
21 we are under time restraints, Mr. Dzida. The shortest and accurate
22 answer would have been: I was away only for a couple of hours. That's
23 what Mr. Weber wanted to know, how long were you away. And whether there
24 were a doctor or no doctor or whether it was on crutches or not, a couple
25 of hours is apparently your answer to the question.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. But I'm a soldier,
4 not a lawyer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Just listen to the questions carefully and try to
6 answer them.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. Were you able to immediately return to active duty?
10 A. Immediately. I returned to duty immediately.
11 Q. In your statement you also discuss a second occasion where you
12 were wounded on the 6th of May, 1993. Where were you when you sustained
13 these injuries?
14 A. I was in the defence sector at Vihari, Vihari Kijet [phoen], near
16 Q. You indicate on the second occasion that you received a total of
17 21 wounds. How long were you away from active duty on the second
19 A. Over one month.
20 Q. Mr. Dzida, today I'm going to start by discussing the activities
21 of the 216th JNA Brigade before it was renamed the 1st Romanija
22 Infantry Brigade. I'd just like to clarify initially a few things with
23 you. Is it correct that you were first mobilised into the 216th Brigade
24 between 30 June 1991 and 16 August 1991?
25 A. Mobilisation started on the 30th of June, 1991, and on the
1 16th of August, 1992, we returned the equipment. So that was the first
3 Q. All right. Then you were mobilised on a second occasion on
4 17 September 1991; is that correct?
5 A. Correct, the 17th of September, 1991, the second mobilisation was
6 carried out; that is to say, the additional mobilisation.
7 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D491 for
8 the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for it, Mr. Weber, I've got no
10 idea where Vihari Kijet may be. If you could either clarify together
11 with the Defence --
12 MR. WEBER: Very well.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that the answer serves its purpose.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Sir, this is a 4th Corps analysis dated 21 August 1991 that you
16 discuss in a paragraph of your statement. Do you recognise this
18 A. I think I do.
19 Q. Is it correct that you also commented upon this document in your
20 statement for the Karadzic case?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. WEBER: Could I please have page 4 in both versions. And for
23 the witness, I'm going to be focusing on information that's at the very
24 top of the original. And for Your Honours, it's information in the
25 centre of the page in the translation.
1 Q. Sir, in your Mladic statement in paragraph 12, you discuss this
2 report and it's similar to your discussion in the Karadzic statement.
3 However, I'm going to read you an additional sentence which appeared in
4 your Karadzic statement. I'm just simply asking you if you could confirm
6 In your Karadzic statement, you added with respect to this
8 "Response was very poor, which is confirmed in the
9 above-mentioned document on page 4. The first paragraph that was shown
10 to me which says that 1.218 soldiers did not respond to mobilisation.
11 They were Muslim reservists."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Are you referring to paragraph 12 in the Mladic
14 MR. WEBER: It is -- I'm referring to the -- my apologies for the
15 confusion, thank you. I'm referring to paragraph 10.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. WEBER: And I confused it with the Karadzic paragraph number.
18 My apologies for the confusion.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Paragraph 10 of?
22 MR. WEBER: The Mladic statement.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And then you pointed at the differences with the
24 Karadzic statement.
25 MR. WEBER: Correct. I apologise for the confusion.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Sir, do you need me to repeat your statement from the Karadzic
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm sorry, I'm still lost.
6 MR. WEBER: Okay.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm still lost. I don't see the words "the
8 response was poor" in paragraph 10. I see it in paragraph 12 and that's
9 where it ends.
10 MR. WEBER: That's correct. Sorry for the confusion. In the
11 Mladic statement, he comments on the document on one occasion in
12 paragraph 10. In the Karadzic statement, he commented on the document in
13 two separate paragraphs. The now paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement
14 had an additional comment that -- in the Karadzic statement that also
15 made reference to this document which is now visible in the current
16 paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement. I apologise for that confusion.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: However, all what you have read out I don't see in
18 paragraph 10.
19 MR. WEBER: Correct. I -- it was my confusion. Paragraph 12 of
20 the Mladic statement -- all right. Let's just go through it. In
21 paragraph 10 of the Mladic statement, there is reference to this
22 document. In paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement --
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: This is 0914 --
24 MR. WEBER: Correct. In paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement, he
25 discusses how the response was poor. Formerly in the Karadzic statement,
1 that -- the paragraph that is now paragraph 12 of the Mladic statement
2 made a second reference to the same document which is why I'm trying to
3 get the witness to confirm now.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Go ahead.
5 MR. WEBER: Okay.
6 Q. Sir, with respect to this document in the Karadzic case, you
8 "Response was very poor, which is confirmed in the
9 above-mentioned document on page 4. The first paragraph that was shown
10 to me which says that 1.218 soldiers did not respond to mobilisation.
11 They were Muslim reservists."
12 Do you stand by this statement on this document?
13 A. This goes for the entire brigade. This number of people did not
14 respond, that's certain. These officers, NCOs, military conscripts,
15 motor vehicles, and cattle. I don't see the number of people who did
16 respond. I don't see that here at all.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution --
19 Q. So, sir, you confirm your previous statement that the -- in this
20 document, the 1.218 soldiers that did not respond were Muslim reservists;
21 is that correct?
22 A. I did not confirm that they were reservists. Most of those who
23 did not respond were Muslims, because some Muslims did respond to the
24 call up for our unit.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, Witness, the question to you was: Are
1 the 1.218, all of them, are they all Muslims? That's the question. Not
2 whether other Muslims did respond.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, approximately that would be
4 the number.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's the ethnicity that we are asking for. The
6 number is 1.218. Were they all Muslims?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time when we compiled that
8 report, we didn't say whether it was just Muslims or whether there were
9 some Serbs among them. At any rate, that's the number of people who did
10 not respond.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And the question now to you is whether those 1.218
12 were Muslims? If you know.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've told you that most of them
14 were Muslims. As far as I can remember my previous answer to
15 President Karadzic, it was the same, the same answer.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And "most of them," that means 95, 98 per cent
17 of the number mentioned here? Close to that? Almost --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately that much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So almost all of them.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30704.
23 Q. Mr. Dzida, coming up before you will be a document dated
24 5 January 1995. It is a recommendation for decoration of the
25 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade from SRK commander Dragomir Milosevic. In
1 this recommendation, General Milosevic discusses the experiences of the
2 brigade from the 30th of June 1991 onward. I'm going to go through it
3 with you part by part here. And if, sir, you could please listen to my
4 questions, I'm just going to go step by step.
5 In the first few sentences, he refers to operations in the
6 Banja Luka sector between 1 July and 15 August 1991 which successfully
7 secured the Mahovljani airport. Did you participate in these operations?
8 A. It is correct that I participated but it wasn't an operation. We
9 came there for training and by the way we also secured the airport.
10 Q. In the middle of the first paragraph, General Milosevic discusses
11 a series of tasks that were completed by the brigade between August 1991
12 and March 1992. He states:
13 "In addition to its engagement in combat operations, the brigade
14 also organised training of Serbs in crucial specialist areas ..."
15 And he names some of these areas. Starting with the first one,
16 is it correct that members of the 216th Brigade received specialist
17 training in areas such as sniping?
18 A. That is not correct.
19 Q. Okay. Do you say that because you did not receive that training?
20 A. My unit -- as far as my unit is concerned, I don't think that
21 anybody underwent such training.
22 Q. Is it correct that you cannot exclude the possibility that others
23 in the brigade received such training?
24 A. I claim that others didn't go either. That's for sure. Because
25 according to establishment, in a platoon there are three snipers, and
1 these are ordinary M-76 snipers with ordinary optical sights. So
2 according to establishment, these snipers did exist but nobody went for
3 this kind of training, and I claim that with full responsibility.
4 And also I'm going to ask you to make the Serbian letters more
5 visible because I don't have the right glasses.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If portions of anything should be enlarged, please
7 ask for it. If there is a specific portion you can't read, although the
8 text, of course, can be read to you as well.
9 And do I understand that you are telling us that --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right, if you were to
11 enlarge it when you're putting a question to me, I mean the Serbian
12 part --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not used to being interrupted.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: This document which is authored by
16 Dragomir Milosevic, Major-General Dragomir Milosevic, says that organised
17 training of Serbs in crucial specialist areas was performed. Do I
18 understand that you say that this is a false report by
19 Dragomir Milosevic? Because you deny that it's true, what is written in
20 this report. So you say it's a false report or?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I said. But units
22 that responded to call-up had training every day. And it was tactical
23 training and combat rules and so on, so I mean this is training,
24 practical training, in the JNA. When people are called up, they should
25 do something so they wouldn't just be sitting around. As for this kind
1 of specific thing, no.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The report says that there was specialist training
3 within this brigade for snipers. You're saying this didn't happen.
4 Therefore, either the report is not true or what you're telling is not
5 true. I'm not saying that you're intentionally saying something which is
6 not true, but I'm saying the two contradict each other clearly. Any
7 explanation for that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just telling the truth and I am
9 saying the truth, and I'm telling you that there were no sniper shooters.
10 And when proposals are made, they are always exaggerated so that they
11 would fair better.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It is about training of snipers, specialist training
13 of snipers within the brigade. That's what the report is about. You say
14 it's not true?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My unit did not give anyone, did
16 not go out for training, and as far as I can remember --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about unit. I'm talking about
18 specialist snipers training within the brigade as described in the
19 report. If you say it's not true, then the document is inaccurate. If
20 you say "I don't know" or "I wasn't aware of it," that's a different
21 matter. I'm just trying to find out where we are.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, there was no
23 training, specialist training for snipers.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You have no knowledge of such training.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
1 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. The second area indicates that there was squad commander
3 training. Did you receive this training as a company commander in the
4 216th Brigade?
5 A. I underwent all training in peacetime before mobilisation; that
6 is to say, starting with reserve officers school to - what was the
7 name? - the training for platoon commanders, company commanders, and
8 training for deputy commanders of battalions.
9 Q. Okay. You've mentioned that there was some training after you
10 joined the 216th Brigade. What type of training was that?
11 A. Regular training that was planned. I joined the 16th in 75. The
12 216th Mountain Brigade, according to the war deployment of the then
13 state, the SFRY.
14 Q. When you say "regular training," what type of training are you
15 talking about?
16 A. Every few years they asked us to come for some kind of training.
17 After finishing reserve officers school, then I worked as a trainee. And
18 then every two years there was training, and that was the plan of the JNA
19 in the SFRY.
20 Q. Sir, if I could direct your attention back to the document in
21 front of you, and if you have any trouble seeing it, please let us know.
22 General Milosevic goes on to discuss some of the brigade's early
23 operations between September 1991 and March 1992. He makes references to
24 operations in Dubrovnik during this time.
25 My question is very simple: Did you participate in these
2 A. No.
3 Q. It indicates that another part of the brigade went to
4 Borovo Naselje near Vukovar in Slavonia. Did you participate in these
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Between which months did you go to Borovo Naselje? Specifically,
8 was it with the rest of the brigade in November 1991 or that -- part of
9 that brigade?
10 A. End of November 1991, when the fourteenth cease-fire was signed.
11 Q. Is it correct that you operated -- the part of your brigade that
12 went, that you operated as a subordinate unit of Operation Group South?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we scroll down this document, please.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should go to the next page in English.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Borovo Naselje is continuing on the second page.
16 That's also where Dubrovnik is found, Mr. Weber --
17 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- where we couldn't see it earlier. So we now have
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER:
22 Q. Sir, when you went to the area of Borovo Naselje in 1991, did
23 your part of your brigade operate as part of Operation Group South,
24 OG South?
25 A. I think they belonged to the Novi Sad Corps.
1 Q. Would that be OG North? Do you know? If you don't know, that's
2 fine too.
3 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
4 Q. In the third paragraph, I believe on the page in front of you,
5 which is now the first full paragraph at the top of the English
6 translation, General Milosevic states:
7 "Parts of the brigade that were not engaged in the fighting in
8 Eastern Slavonia and Dubrovnik were engaged in securing materiel and
9 technical equipment in the Han Pijesak sector and securing transport from
10 Ustikolina to the Slavonia front."
11 Is this correct that this was the -- what the remainder of the
12 brigade did who did not go to either Dubrovnik or Borovo Naselje?
13 A. As far as I know, they were providing security. I don't remember
14 this because I wasn't there for Ustikolina.
15 Q. Very well.
16 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30704 into evidence at
17 this time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30704 receives number P6543, Your
21 JUDGE ORIE: P6543 is admitted into evidence. Could we have a
22 close look at the transcript in this respect. Yes, there we are.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Sir, before the next break, I just want to see if we can get
1 through one relatively brief topic. In the supplemental statement that
2 has been admitted in this case, you indicate that you returned to Ilidza
3 after 16 August 1991. Is it correct that you then left Ilidza again in
4 mid-September when you rejoined the 216th Brigade?
5 A. I will try to understand but the question was not put to me
6 clearly. It is correct that I returned from Han Pijesak on the
7 16th of May, so then on the 17th of May -- or, rather, August, I -- I
8 reported at the company. Then Hebib, the technical director, met me
9 there --
10 Q. Sir, if I could just cut you off before we get too far afield.
11 Is it correct that you were in Ilidza between 16 August and
12 17 September 1991?
13 A. I am telling you that on the 17th, I think, August, I was at
14 Ilidza. And -- I mean, later I was wasn't in Ilidza because I got this
15 decision on annual leave, and I had an apartment at Dobrinja V, and they
16 sent me off on holiday because they told me there was no work for me
17 anymore. The technical director, Hebib Mustafa -- no, it wasn't Mustafa,
18 but Hebib it was. He was a Muslim.
19 Q. Sir, did all this happen between the -- my questions are very
20 simple: Did all this happen between the 17th of August and the
21 17th of September, 1991?
22 A. I'm telling you now that I was at Ilidza then and I did not go
23 back to Ilidza until the additional mobilisation took place. I mean,
24 there was no need for me to go there. I got this decision on annual
25 leave and there was no need for me to go there.
1 Q. Okay. The remark you just made, I think, will be clear enough.
2 In your previous testimony in the Karadzic case, this is at
3 transcript page 29565, you stated:
4 "In 1991 I left Ilidza and did not return to Ilidza until the end
5 of the war. I only passed through Ilidza."
6 Then just so -- to be fair and to have a full account of this,
7 then at -- two pages later, at 29567, you stated:
8 "... I left Ilidza in 1991. I went to see some friends on
9 occasion in February 1992, and after that I didn't go to Ilidza again."
10 Do you stand by this testimony?
11 A. Well, passing through Ilidza from time to time is not a stay in
12 Ilidza. I understood you to be saying that I passed through Ilidza every
13 now and then during one month or stayed in Ilidza during one month?
14 Q. Sir, I just read what you said in your previous case. I'm just
15 asking you: Do you stand by those statements?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You were also asked in the Karadzic case, and this is on
18 page 29567:
19 "Q. Did you ever see or hear about paramilitaries in Ilidza,
20 notwithstanding your in-and-out nature?"
21 Your answer was:
22 "I did not see them nor did I hear about them."
23 Do you stand by this testimony today?
24 A. As far as I can remember, I did not see any paramilitaries there,
25 either Muslim or any other, at Ilidza. But I heard that such Muslim
1 units existed, and I believe that's what I said.
2 Q. Okay. So, sir, do I understand correctly you are departing from
3 your previous Karadzic statement that you did not see or hear about
4 paramilitaries in Ilidza?
5 A. I repeat: I didn't see them. But as far as I can remember, I
6 did hear about their existence. People asked me where they were being
7 trained and where they were.
8 Q. Well --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's go back to the question that was put to you,
11 Mr. Weber read to you that in the Karadzic case your testimony
12 was that you did not see them nor that you heard about them. Today
13 you're telling us still that you did not see them but - and that seems to
14 be different - that you did hear about them. Is that well understood?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There may have been an error or,
16 rather, maybe I didn't say things through, but I did hear that there were
17 such units at Ilidza.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, if you quote from a previous case
19 questions like: "Did you ever see or hear about paramilitaries in
20 Ilidza," of course the Chamber doesn't have any context. So whether it
21 is part of a line of questioning about Serbian paramilitaries or
22 Muslim paramilitaries or both is totally unclear to us. And perhaps for
23 our understanding it would be good --
24 MR. WEBER: Sure.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- that also the context is provided to us.
1 MR. WEBER: No problem, Your Honours. I'd be happy to provide
2 it. I see it's the break time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's time for a break.
4 Witness, we take a break. And we'd like to see you back,
5 Mr. Dzida, in 20 minutes from now. You may follow the usher.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
12 Mr. Weber.
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just so the Chamber has the references
14 for today, the Prosecution has uploaded the Karadzic statement as
15 65 ter 30709. And the Prosecution has uploaded the Karadzic transcript
16 as 65 ter 30710. It appears I recreated the similar confusion as in the
17 last case, and I will be going to Karadzic transcript page -- strike
18 that. I'll be going to 65 ter 30710, page 18 --
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 MR. WEBER: -- once the witness comes back.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Dzida.
22 Mr. Weber will now continue his cross-examination.
23 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
24 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Q. Mr. Dzida, I'm going to read you another part of your Karadzic
1 transcript hopefully to clarify something that we were discussing right
2 before the break. During the Karadzic proceedings, Judge Kwon read you a
3 portion of your statement. He stated:
4 "'During 1990, until 1992, I could not see paramilitary units on
5 Ilidza, which, as it was later found out, the Muslims had already formed
6 in the whole BiH by that time.'"
7 He then asked you:
8 "So here you referred to paramilitary units on Ilidza. Did you
9 mean Serb paramilitary units or Muslim paramilitary units?"
10 You answered:
11 "Your Honours, in this statement I said in 1990 up until 1992, I
12 didn't notice paramilitary units on Ilidza. So it says up to 1992. 1992
13 isn't taken into account."
14 Judge Kwon, he asked you:
15 "No, my question was whether you meant Muslims or Serbs?"
16 You answered:
17 "Muslims. At the time the Serbs didn't have any units."
18 Do you stand by this evidence?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. WEBER: Unless Your Honours have any other questions, I'm
22 going to move on.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please move on.
24 MR. WEBER:
25 Q. Throughout portions of your original B/C/S statement in this
1 case, you referred to your brigade as the 1st Rpbr. Could you just
2 please clarify for us what this reference is to?
3 A. This is an infantry brigade or, rather, the Romanija Infantry
4 Brigade or, rather, the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.
5 Q. In paragraph 5 of your statement, for the Chamber's reference,
6 you have a sentence that states:
7 "On 20 August 1992, the SRK command sent me to Jabucko Sedlo with
8 the task of pulling out the civilian population and the part of the unit
9 attacked by Muslims."
10 I just want to clarify this location with you. Is Jabucko Sedlo
11 located to the north of Gorazde and the south of Rogatica?
12 A. North of Gorazde.
13 Q. And located to the south of Rogatica; is that correct?
14 A. That's how it should be.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30702,
16 page 7 of the English and page 6 of the B/C/S.
17 Q. Sir, for a little bit here, I'm going to be discussing with you
18 some information -- the information that we have available related to
19 your military service. We do not have much information available for
20 you, so I'm going to be asking you to assist us with explaining a couple
21 of things.
22 Before you is a document from your military records. It is an
23 assessment for the period of 30 June 1991 to 26 September 1996. Can you
24 confirm that this is your signature on the bottom left side of this page?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. In this assessment it indicates that in 1992 and 1993 you were
2 the commander of a CVP company and you were wounded on two occasions. Is
3 this information accurate?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is this a military police company?
6 A. First it was an infantry company, and then a military police
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last
9 portion of the witness's answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last portion of your
11 answer because the interpreters were unable to catch it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time I was wounded I was
13 in the infantry company, and then in October 1992 I was reassigned to the
14 military police company. And then the following year on the 6th of May,
15 I was wounded in that company. In the military police company, that is.
16 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, may I proceed?
17 Q. The next sentence states:
18 "You were entrusted with the duty of commander of an infantry
19 battalion of the 1st Rpbr."
20 According to your statement in this case, paragraph 5, it
21 indicates that you took up this post on the date of 17 October 1994. Is
22 it correct that the reference in this assessment refers to your
23 assignment as of October 1994?
24 A. It is true that I was appointed on the 17th of October, 1994, and
25 I became the commander of the 4th Battalion in the Nisici plateau sector.
1 Q. Do you agree that the reference in this assessment that -- as to
2 when you were -- that you were commander of an infantry battalion relates
3 to that assignment as of October 1994?
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. Do you -- do you --
6 JUDGE ORIE: It might be -- the whole system seems to be ...
7 If I switch on my microphone it doesn't work either. Now it
8 seems to -- could you try again, Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Do you agree that this text does not make reference to the
11 time-period when you served as an assistant commander for security and
13 A. No, there is no reference to that. I don't know why that was
14 omitted. I suppose it was a simple mistake, because I discharged those
15 duties as well until the moment when the battalion commander was
17 Q. Your answer's understood. We're going to go through some more
18 information. Do you also agree that this assessment does not specify the
19 brigade which you were part of as a company commander?
20 A. The gentleman who drafted this, he was a member of the
21 2nd Romanija Brigade, which was set up after the signing of the
22 Dayton Agreement sometime in February. One brigade arose as a result of
23 that and it was omitted, and there is no reference to any of the
24 documents to the 1st or the 2nd Romanija Brigades.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the
1 English and page 4 of the B/C/S of the same set of materials.
2 Q. Sir, I did want to go to the first page of this assessment
3 because there is a reference to your post of assistant commander for
4 information and security. On this first page it indicates that you held
5 four posts between the dates of 30 June 1991 and 26 September 1996. Can
6 you see the section where these four posts are indicated?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There's no dates indicated for these, so what I'd like to ask you
9 right now is; what is your best recollection of when you served in the
10 post of assistant commander for information and security?
11 A. From the 9th of August, 1993, up to Easter, which was in
12 April 1994. And then I became the deputy battalion commander after
13 Easter. It was after Easter, I'm sure, but I don't remember the date.
14 On Easter I received the decision for my appointment as the deputy
15 battalion commander, and this assessment was drafted much later, in
16 peacetime, when a new unit had already been set up. That's why there is
17 no reference to all of the units that I served in.
18 Q. You just mentioned a new unit. What unit was that?
19 A. It was a peacetime unit which was the 512th Brigade, which was
20 composed of two former brigades. My last appointment was the assistant
21 commander for logistics or, rather, a desk officer for logistics. And I
22 was also the deputy assistant commander for logistics.
23 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
24 65 ter 30702 into evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30702 receives number P6544,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. Mr. Dzida, I'm now going to go through some additional documents
6 with you and some information is just unclear to us, so we --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem at all, go ahead.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. -- we'd like you --
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30705.
11 Q. This is a Drina Corps command request number 17/16-25, dated
12 13 October 1993, to all units. Mr. Dzida, as you can see, the document
13 requests information about those who were killed or wounded from the
14 beginning of the war until May 1992.
15 I have a simple question on this document before we move on to
16 the -- another document. Do you agree that this request is sent to the
17 subordinate units of the Drina Corps?
18 A. I can't say because I don't know. I was in the Sarajevo Corps,
19 and the Drina Corps was set up on the 26th of October, 1992.
20 Q. Okay. Is it correct that there is no reference to this being
21 sent to any units of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Do you agree with
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, just --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document could not sent to the
25 SRK if the 2nd Corps sent it to its subordinate units. Only a higher
1 instance could have dispatched it for the 2nd Corps to receive it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, this is what happens if you ask a witness
3 to comment on what apparently is not in a document, then it starts
4 explaining why, and whether that's solid knowledge, yes or no, is a
5 different matter. But if a document does not refer to something, then
6 there is hardly any need to ask a witness whether it does unless that
7 witness has a specific knowledge about the origin of the document or how
8 it was created. But otherwise, what's not in a document, everyone who
9 can read can find out what is not in a document. Again, apart from
10 special circumstances. It's not the first time that you are doing it, so
11 therefore I would encourage you to refrain from these kind of things.
12 If there is any need for the next question for the witness to be
13 aware of it, then you can just put it to the witness that you see nothing
14 is said there, irrespective whether the witness confirms, or agree on the
15 matter with the Defence.
16 MR. WEBER: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much, Your Honours. I do understand
19 and I'll move on.
20 Your Honours, I'm going to be tendering this document, actually,
21 with the next one. Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30706.
22 Q. Sir, this is a 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade response on
23 the same day to the Drina Corps request that we just looked at. I would
24 like to draw your attention to number 4 in the section for
25 "Serious Wounded." It states:
1 "Milorad (Milos) Dzida, from Rogatica, born in," blank, "wounded
2 on 4 May 1992 in Sarajevo, Vrbanja Most."
3 Is it correct that this is a reference to you?
4 A. Yes, this is a reference to me because I was registered with
5 Rogatica municipality, from which the 216th Mountain Brigade came during
6 a mobilisation. From the beginning of the war to its end, I remained
7 with the 1st Romanija Brigade.
8 Q. Were you in the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade on this date,
9 on the 13th of October, 1993?
10 A. No, I was not. I was not there.
11 Q. Okay. Were you ever in the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade
12 prior to this date?
13 A. I was never its member save for the time when I went to
14 Jabucko Sedlo to save civilians from Gorazde because they had been
15 encircled by Muslims. That's when I actually arrived in Rogatica
16 municipality. When the Serbs abandoned Gorazde, I returned to my
17 original unit.
18 Q. This document is from Rajko Kusic. If you need to see it, we can
19 turn to the second page in the B/C/S and the English. Or third page.
20 This document comes from Rajko Kusic. Were you ever under his
22 A. I was never under his command. I relied on his command for my
23 logistics supply when I was sent to Gorazde to help the people there.
24 Q. Do you have any explanation as to why the 1st Podrinje
25 Light Infantry Brigade would be reporting about you?
1 A. Just a while ago I told you that the military department in
2 Rogatica is where I was registered. They sent me to serve in the army.
3 I was a military conscript registered with them. Rogatica mobilised
4 people and sent them to the 216th Mountain Brigade. My chart was with
5 that department. I lived in Sarajevo but I never deregistered from the
6 military department in Rogatica; not for military purposes, that is.
7 Q. If you could help us clarify that. Is it correct that you were
8 registered as a -- in Rogatica and that is why the records of the
9 Drina Corps reflect that you were possibly one of its members and not the
11 A. This is a probable explanation. I was never a member of the
12 Rogatica Brigade. I was always in the Drina Corps.
13 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 30705 and 30706 into
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30705 receives number P6545. And
17 document 30706 receives number P6546, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P6545 and P6546 are admitted into evidence.
19 MR. WEBER: I would just like to go through two more documents in
20 a similar fashion, and with the Chamber's instruction, I'll go through
21 the first one rather quickly.
22 Q. But, sir, I'd like you to see it.
23 MR. WEBER: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30707.
24 Q. Sir, I'm just going to describe the document to you but I wanted
25 you to see the document. So if after I get done describing it you need
1 anymore time to read it, just please let us know. This is a Drina Corps
2 command request numbered 05/1-377, dated 12 November 1994. So just over
3 a year after the last document we saw. This request asks for updated
4 information on the killed and wounded soldiers.
5 And, sir, if you could look at line number 2 in particular before
6 we go to the next document. It states:
7 "Send the data for the years since the beginning of the war.
8 With regard to 1994, the closing date is 31 October 1994."
9 Sir, I'm just going to ask you, before we go to the next
10 document, have you had enough time to look at this document?
11 MR. WEBER: If the Prosecution could now please -- and,
12 Your Honours, just for the record, it appears the witness has nodded that
13 he's looked at it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we noticed that.
15 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30708.
16 Q. Sir, this is a 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade response the
17 next day to the Drina Corps request that we just looked at. I'd like to
18 draw your attention to section B before we go on to a later page.
19 Under the section, there is information related to wounded
20 members of the brigade. If you could look at the category row, there are
21 years and then there are the letters T and L underneath the years.
22 Is it correct that the letter T is for the word "tese" or "teze"
23 meaning "seriously wounded," and the letter L is for the word "lakse"
24 meaning "lightly wounded"?
25 A. It should be so. T, seriously, and L, lightly wounded. But once
1 again, it's a document from the Drina Corps and not from the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
3 Q. Okay. I just wanted to go through some information on this
4 before we go to the next page. Under Roman numeral --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, how do we have to understand the
6 footnotes in relation to letters T and L in the English version?
7 MR. WEBER: I do not think that they are accurate. I leave it in
8 the context of the document. That's why I was asking the witness to
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, they do not appear in the original and
11 therefore you suggest that we ignore those comments contained in those
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. WEBER: Under Roman numeral II, there is data for reserve
16 Q. Sir, if you could follow me across on the row for officers, this
17 row indicates that there were two reserve officers who were seriously
18 wounded and six reserve officers who were lightly wounded in 1992. One
19 reserve officer who was seriously wounded in 1993. And then if you go
20 across the row, the total appears to bring it to three seriously wounded
21 officers and six lightly wounded reserve officers.
22 Do you see the row that I'm referring to?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the
25 English and page 3 of the B/C/S.
1 Q. Now, sir, there is a list attached to this response. Under the
2 heavily wounded section, there are three officers listed: Two in 1992
3 and one in 1993. Under the section for lightly wounded officers, there
4 are six individuals listed, all from 1992, and it appears your name is
5 listed at number two.
6 Would your explanation of this document be the same as what you
7 previously stated with respect to the documents we looked at from 1993,
8 your explanation for being included as part of the Drina Corps records?
9 A. I told you how it could be possible that the military department
10 provided the information to the Rogatica Brigade, as I don't see how else
11 it could have been. I was never subordinated to the Rogatica Brigade.
12 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution at this time tenders 65 ter 30707 and
13 30708 into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, if I may.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you may after I have heard the numbers from
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Documents 30707 receives number P6547, and
19 document 30708 receives number P6548, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dzida, what did you want to say?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This time, the first time when I
22 was wounded, I was a member of the Yugoslav People's Army because the
23 Army of Republika Srpska had not yet been established and the reports
24 were sent to military departments. That's most probably why I figure in
25 this list. Because I was wounded the first time on the 6th of May --
1 excuse me, the 4th of May, 1992.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P6547 and P6548 are admitted into evidence.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. WEBER:
5 Q. Sir, I'd like to move on to a new topic now and discuss your
6 statements in first the Karadzic case and then the Mladic case. Is it
7 correct that you provided a statement in the Karadzic case?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Prior to signing that statement, is it correct that you were
10 interviewed on at least two occasions by members of the Karadzic Defence
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The names of the individuals who interviewed you from the
14 Karadzic Defence team were Slobodan Batnic [phoen] and Milomir Savcic; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You knew both of these individuals prior to your interviews with
18 them; is that correct?
19 A. Superficially.
20 Q. Well, is it correct that you knew them from during the war?
21 A. Just a little, superficially. I may have met them in passing and
22 so on. We didn't have anything in common.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you knew them from during
24 the war.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard of them but we didn't
2 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you knew them from during
3 the war. That is a time-period. Not where, not what you were wearing,
4 not what you spoke about, but whether it was during the war that you got
5 to know them.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't meet during the war.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then tell us when you -- since when you knew them
8 and how you knew them.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With Milomir I had coffee for the
10 first time when we conducted the interview here.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
12 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D489.
13 Q. Sir, coming up before you will be your statement in this case,
14 the Mladic case.
15 Is it correct that you were interviewed on four occasions prior
16 to your signing this statement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you tell us approximately how long each of these interviews
20 A. They lasted at least an hour to an hour and a half each. I
21 usually had to leave and I was in a rush because I had some obligations.
22 Q. Is it correct that you know Mr. Slavko Gengo?
23 A. I do. He used to be my commander.
24 Q. In Mr. Gengo's statement that is admitted in this case, it
25 indicates that he was interviewed on two of the same dates as you; these
1 dates being the 28th and 29th of October, 2013.
2 Did you see Mr. Gengo on either of these dates?
3 A. I did. I just don't remember which dates they were.
4 Q. Was -- when you saw Mr. Gengo on either the 28th or
5 29th of October, 2013, was anyone else present besides the two of you?
6 A. We were never together. We were always separate. I always
7 insisted to finish as soon as possible. I had to complete my work
8 because I had to perform some work at a company.
9 Q. Okay. According to the statement --
10 MR. WEBER: And if we could please go to the last page, which I
11 believe contains the date that it was signed.
12 Q. According to this statement, it indicates that you signed this on
13 the 10th of May, 2014. This also corresponds to the date Mr. Gengo
14 signed his statement. Did you see him on that date, 10 May 2014?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When was the most recent occasion that you --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask -- perhaps, Mr. Weber, could I ask,
18 then, a few questions?
19 MR. WEBER: Sure.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The 10th of May, where did you sign this statement?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Pale.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you be a bit more precise, where in
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a building called the
25 Tradesmen's Centre in Pale.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you made some corrections to your
2 statement. Recently we received the corrections. Apparently they were
3 made in The Hague although there is no date on it. This signed
4 correction, did you sign that when you -- after your arrival in
5 The Hague?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: On the 10th of May, why did you not make the
8 corrections on that day? Could you explain that to us?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 10th of May I read it and I
10 didn't immediately notice that there were any typos or errors. And then
11 later on, I corrected them at home, when I read the statement for the
12 second or third time. It was then that I corrected the errors. And so
13 some of my recollections were left out. They were not recorded. And I
14 had forgotten or I didn't have enough time when I was with
15 President Karadzic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You said you didn't have enough time when you were
17 with -- let me read it again. With President Karadzic. Could you
18 explain that. When did you have not sufficient time for what exactly?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then, when the public prosecutor
20 lady asked me, I couldn't remember the name because she kept interrupting
21 me, and I had no time, the time that was allowed to me to answer some
23 JUDGE ORIE: But I'm talking about your statement, the statement
24 as we received it. Or is that a statement which is the same as the
25 statement you gave in the Karadzic case?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Similar.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You said you read it on the 10th of May. How much
3 time did you have to read it on that date?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As far as I remember, up to
5 25 or 30 minutes, because I needed about five to six minutes per page to
6 read it and sign it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. When was the most recent occasion that you have seen or spoken
11 with Slavko Gengo?
12 A. Before my departure I saw him passing and I talked to him from a
13 car. And I saw him when I arrived here as well, and then we talked but
14 not about the case.
15 Q. When you saw him before your departure, where did you see him?
16 A. In Pale. As far as I remember, I think it was near the
17 Dva Goluba cafe restaurant.
18 Q. When did you arrive in The Hague?
19 A. On the 16th of May.
20 Q. When did you see Slavko Gengo after the 16th of May?
21 A. I saw him in Belgrade at the airport, and I was surprised because
22 I didn't know at the time that he was travelling too. But he was
23 accommodated in a different hotel, and two or three days later we
24 happened to meet accidentally.
25 Q. To understand correctly, is it correct that the two of you
1 travelled here to The Hague together on the 16th of May?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know, was he the only other witness in this
4 case with whom you travelled together or were there more persons on that
5 same plane that travelled to The Hague in order to appear as witnesses?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Because we didn't
7 sit together. I sat far away from him, so we were not close to each
8 other on the plane, and I didn't know anyone else.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. You said you saw him two or three days after your arrival. Did
11 you speak with him at any other time after your arrival in The Hague?
12 A. I've told you that we talked but we never discussed the cases
13 because of which we came here. When we were received by the VWS, we got
14 a paper telling us that it was prohibited to discuss such matters.
15 Q. Did you watch Mr. Gengo's testimony?
16 A. No, I couldn't do it.
17 Q. Since you've been in The Hague, have you seen any other witnesses
18 who have appeared or will appear during these proceedings?
19 A. Yes, a few. But I hadn't known most of them before.
20 Q. I just want to go back to one more simple question. Is -- could
21 you tell us approximately how many times per year you see Slavko Gengo?
22 A. Very few. If you want the numbers, perhaps four or five times.
23 But we would meet briefly. I am retired and I sometimes work on the
24 basis of contracts and I work for 10 or 12 hours a day, so I just go to
25 work or I'm at home. When I have free time, I go to my native village
1 and there I till some land, so I have very little time.
2 Q. Sir, I'm going to move on to actually another topic.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you do that --
4 MR. WEBER: Okay.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- may I put a question to the witness?
6 MR. WEBER: Sure.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am referring to the beginning of page 42 of
8 today's transcript.
9 Sir, you were asked by Mr. Weber about the 28th and
10 29th of October, 2013, when you were interviewed by the Defence team of
11 Mr. Mladic. And Mr. Weber asked you:
12 "Did you see Mr. Gengo on either of these days?"
13 And your answer was:
14 "I did. I just don't remember which dates they were."
15 Then the next question of Mr. Weber was more or less: Was anyone
16 else present besides the two of you? And then your answer was:
17 "We were never together. We were always separate."
18 Can you explain that, that you saw Mr. Gengo, yes, and that you
19 were never together? I would like to understand the situation.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw him in passing here, but we
21 were not together in the same office when we had to do this with regard
22 to the case.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You are saying that you saw him here. Was that
24 interview conducted here in The Hague or in --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the corridor, in the corridor.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which corridor? Here in The Hague?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The corridor of the rooms where we
3 met with the Defence team.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asking you about end of October 2013. Was
5 that -- did that happen here in The Hague?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not together in the same
7 room even then, not together at the same time.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Here in The Hague or somewhere else?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 29th of October, I'm talking
10 about this date, 2013.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where? Here in The Hague or where else?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Pale.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All my meetings with the gentlemen
15 took place in Pale.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this clarification.
17 Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER:
19 Q. Sir, I want to move on to discuss the commission you describe
20 after the Markale shelling.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, for the record this is in paragraphs 18
22 to 21 of the witness's statement.
23 Q. In your statement you claim that there were a mixed commission
24 that investigated your firing positions on the 6th of February, 1994, a
25 day after the shelling. Is it correct that the commission you describe
1 was not formed and it did not carry out an investigation?
2 A. It's not correct. There was a commission and it did carry out an
3 on-site investigation.
4 Q. You did not know any of the names of the UNPROFOR members who
5 took part in this commission; is that correct?
6 A. No, I didn't know the names then because we were not entitled to
7 ask for their names or record their names, even when they came to carry
8 out regular inspection duties.
9 Q. Is it correct that you do not know how many UNPROFOR members were
10 part of this inspection?
11 A. I think that there were five or six of them, plus the
12 interpreters. But there weren't fewer than five, that's for sure,
13 because their Toyota was full. It was a passenger vehicle.
14 Q. Is it correct that you do not know the names of anyone from the
15 VRS Main Staff who were part of this commission?
16 A. I don't remember the names.
17 Q. Is it correct that you do not know the names of anyone from the
18 SRK command who were part of this commission?
19 A. Likewise, I don't remember their names.
20 Q. Is it correct that you don't know the name of any representatives
21 from the brigade command who took part in this commission?
22 A. Well, from the brigade command there was the late Mile Pajic,
23 Captain First Class, and First Class Warrant Officer Jakovljevic, I think
24 that his first name was Ilija.
25 Q. All right. I want to go through a couple of things now with
1 you -- well, are those the only names that you can recall that were
2 possibly part of this commission?
3 A. I only remember those who were from my own brigade.
4 Q. Okay. In your statement --
5 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, for the record, this is in
6 paragraph 18.
7 Q. -- you state:
8 "On 5 February 1994, I think that it was in the afternoon, the
9 brigade command informed us that this incident had occurred and that a
10 mixed commission would come to the battalion on that day or the following
11 day to carry out an on-site investigation."
12 You say that the brigade command informed "us." Who were you
13 with when you first learned of this incident? Was it Mr. Gengo?
14 A. I heard of that incident from Mr. Gengo because he conveyed that
15 to me at the meeting in the morning on the 6th. We had a meeting and I
16 was proposing where I should go on that day, and then he told me where I
17 should go, that I should go with the commission that will come to tour
18 the area.
19 Q. All right. That wasn't exactly my question. This part of your
20 statement appears to indicate that on the 5th of February, 1994, the
21 brigade command informed "us." Who were you with when you were informed
22 about this commission?
23 A. That statement, where it says "we," I meant the commander. So it
24 was through him. It's not that they called me personally to tell me.
25 They talked to the commander.
1 Q. When you say "the commander," are you referring to your battalion
2 commander, Mr. Gengo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the Karadzic case --
5 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you move on --
7 MR. WEBER: Sorry.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- I would like to clarify this matter.
9 In your statement you said: "... the brigade command informed
10 us ..."
11 Does it mean that Mr. Gengo as the commander informed himself and
12 you? So I'm really a little bit confused. Can you explain that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gengo knew, I mean, that he
14 received this order and he told the brigade command about this when we
15 met in the morning when this commission was supposed to be accompanied.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The sentence then should read: The brigade
17 commander, Gengo, informed me. Would that be correct?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Informed me in the morning hours of
19 the 6th. That is how it should read.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Weber.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We have to take a break now, Mr. Weber.
22 Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and will resume at 20 minutes past
1 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, do I understand that you have shared the
4 information about the origin of D - what was it? - 417?
5 MR. LUKIC: D471.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D471, yes.
7 MR. LUKIC: We investigated about the provenance of this document
8 and we found it among the documents of the Tribunal. It is admitted in
9 Karadzic case under number D2510, and it was admitted in Galic case under
10 number D1312.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 MR. GROOME: And we've done our own check, Your Honour, and I
13 withdraw any objection to the admission of the document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D471 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
17 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just to inform the Chamber, I've
18 informed the Defence that I'll be finishing shortly.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. WEBER: And so -- for scheduling purposes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. WEBER:
23 Q. Mr. Dzida --
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not understand
1 what the witness said. It was off mike.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you were far away from the microphone when you
3 said something, Mr. Dzida. So if you could repeat it.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a draft coming from up
5 here. There is something blowing in my direction. That's what I said.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I'll ask Madam Registrar to take care that something
7 is done about it. If it is bothering you too much --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can take it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Weber will continue his cross-examination.
10 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30709,
11 page 6.
12 Q. Mr. Dzida, I'm just going to go through a couple of your
13 statements about this commission from the past. I'm going to start with
14 your statement in the Karadzic case. And, sir, since the -- there is not
15 a translation available for this, please be patient with me. I'm going
16 to read it to you.
17 MR. WEBER: And I'm going to be reading, for the record, from
18 paragraphs 16 and 17.
19 Q. Your statement in the past case states:
20 "With regard to the incident referred to as G8, I know the
21 following: On 5 February 1994, I think it was in the afternoon, the
22 brigade command informed us that that incident occurred and that a mixed
23 commission would come to the battalion on that or the following day to
24 carry out an on-site investigation."
25 The beginning of the next paragraph states:
1 "On 6 February 1994, between 0900 and 1000 hours, representatives
2 of the GS /Main Staff/ of the VRS /Army of Republika Srpska/, the
3 SRK /Sarajevo-Romanija Corps/, UNPROFOR, and the 1st Rpbr came," and then
4 you continue to describe.
5 Sir, does this accurately record, what I've read to you, your
6 past statement from the Karadzic case?
7 A. Roughly. As far as I can remember, the commander appointed me in
8 the morning at that meeting to be team leader.
9 MR. WEBER: If we could please go to page 10 of this same
11 Q. In this same statement in the Karadzic case, you provided
12 corrections in additional paragraphs to the statement, and you made
13 corrections during your proofing in the Karadzic case on this same topic.
14 In paragraph 29 you stated:
15 "Two or three days after the Markale incident in February 1994,
16 an UNPROFOR commission unexpectedly came to inspect our positions and
17 mortars. The brigade command informed us that this UNPROFOR commission
18 would come and inspect our positions in half an hour."
19 Is it correct that this is a clarification that you made during
20 the Karadzic case?
21 A. I'm sorry. Could you please just repeat the beginning of your
22 question before this text that you read out?
23 Q. Sure. Your Karadzic statement states:
24 "Two or three days after the Markale incident in February 1994,
25 an UNPROFOR commission unexpectedly came to inspect our positions and
2 Do you need me to read further?
3 A. No. The team leader came then. I think he was a major, a
4 Frenchman. And after arriving in our battalion, I mean, that's what was
5 meant, he informed me that there was no firing from the defence area of
6 our battalion. And he gave a gift both to me and to the commander, a
8 Q. Sir, I'll read on in your paragraph. But I just wanted to first
9 confirm that this was a correction that you made during the Karadzic
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due
12 respect, just -- is it a correction or --
13 JUDGE ORIE: One second, one second. Could you please take your
14 earphones off.
15 MR. LUKIC: But Mr. Stojanovic is speaking in B/C/S.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm speaking in B/C/S.
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 Mr. Weber, I noticed that on a page not shown to us, it's page 9,
20 it says: "Additional information elicited on the 30th of November,
21 2012" --
22 MR. WEBER: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- "translated by the Karadzic Defence team."
24 Whether it's a correction or not, and I take it, Mr. Stojanovic,
25 that was one of your concerns, still may have to be established. And you
1 presented it as: Is it true that you make this correction. I think you
2 should inquire first into what this additional information -- what caused
3 him to give this additional information.
4 If that deals with the matter, then we have no problem with you
5 speaking B/C/S, Mr. Stojanovic.
6 Could the witness put on his earphones again.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due
8 respect, could you please focus on paragraph 21 in this case, lest there
9 be any misunderstanding.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Sir, how about this. I'll read out the full paragraph,
12 paragraph 29, from your statement in the Karadzic case. And this is
13 under a section entitled: "Additional Information," that you provided
14 during that case. It says:
15 "Two or three days after the Markale incident in February 1994,
16 an UNPROFOR commission unexpectedly came to inspect our positions and
17 mortars. The brigade command informed us ... this UNPROFOR commission
18 would come and inspect our positions in half an hour. The UNPROFOR
19 commission concluded that the mortars were not used for quite some time
20 and that there were no traces of mortar use. In addition, they concluded
21 that our crew did not even approach the mortars recently. A Russian
22 member of the inspecting team measured and calculated the angles around
23 the mortars and had a discussion with the rest of the team. One or two
24 days later, a French officer came to our command, told us that they had
25 concluded that our unit had not opened fire during the Markale incident,
1 and gave his belt to the battalion commander, Gengo," it says, "as a
2 present. The UNPROFOR team told us that we were the only unit in that
3 area that they were interested in. We were also the only unit in that
5 Is this the additional information that you provided in the
6 Karadzic case?
7 A. At the beginning perhaps there was a mistake in translation or
8 something like that, but 100 per cent sure it was the 6th when this mixed
9 commission was held, the Serbs and the UNPROFOR. And then later on it's
10 correct that this Frenchman came, this major. I think they belonged to
11 the Foreign Legion, engineering. And I think he was their commander.
12 Q. Sir, I put it to you that this additional information that you
13 provided in the Karadzic case appears inconsistent in terms of what you
14 described in the Mladic statement; in particular, the timing. That it
15 appears that you are describing similar events that occurred two or
16 three days after the incident, and then you are also describing when the
17 French officer came as being two days after that.
18 A. Yes, but the first check was carried out on the 6th. That's
19 100 per cent sure. It started at 10.00 and it went on for about
20 three hours, a bit more than that, when the representatives of the Serbs
21 were there.
22 Q. Is it correct that you did not offer a report of your own related
23 to this visit?
24 A. Well, I did not make a report because my chief of security was
25 there and his deputy was there, and we together --
1 Q. I'm sorry, sir, did you have anything else to say?
2 A. Together we made this report, and I was there when it was coded
3 and sent to Serb [as interpreted] because I could not send reports
4 through my superiors, through the chief of security of the brigade.
5 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we give an opportunity for further
8 examination. This French officer, did he come back a few days after the
9 commission had visited you, as you said, on the 6th of February?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in a few days.
11 JUDGE ORIE: He came back alone?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had a few officers with him and
13 an interpreter, some girl.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And did they again go to the site where
15 120-millimetre mortars had been or did they just report the outcome of
16 their earlier visit?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had not been there during the
18 earlier visit. We went to both areas where the mortars were and we came
19 back to the command. We did not stay there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check. So if I understand you well,
21 there was a visit on the 6th of February?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And this other one was two or
25 three days -- well, I can't remember the exact date.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now what were then the results, to the extent
2 you know, of this first visit?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the first visit, this is my
4 understanding of what the interpreter said to us when we asked, and our
5 mortars were not used. That is 100 per cent sure. And there was no
6 firing coming from there.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Interpreting from what language into what language?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Into Serbian.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was from what language into what.
10 You have answered the second part of my question, but what were the
11 persons speaking whose words had to be translated?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not very knowledgeable. I
13 only speak Serbian. I've never spoken any other language, believe me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't know --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm talking about his
16 statement, what he said to us, I mean this interpreter. What he said to
17 me, and to Pajic and Jakovljevic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you know whether he was translating at that
19 moment, or did he give his personal impressions?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he was translating.
21 After all, I don't know whether he had the right to present his personal
23 JUDGE ORIE: So -- but you do not know whether he was
24 translating --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm just telling you what he said
1 to us then.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, you also describe this visit and you
3 said: "They measured the azimuth."
4 Could you explain to us what you exactly meant by that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of these officer were
6 measuring the azimuth, and they were doing this calculation in terms of
7 the mortar and they were using a compass and so on, and they were writing
8 things but I could not see.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean exactly by "azimuth"?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the cardinal points. Things
11 like that. Also the distance was measured --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Just --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in terms of where the mortar was
15 JUDGE ORIE: Distance from where to where?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where the barrel was turned and
17 then they measured the distance and this azimuth, and then they got their
18 compasses out, orienting themselves. I know that they were trying to see
19 where north/south was and ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Again, what do you do you mean by they measured the
21 azimuth? What do you understand to be the azimuth?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point where we were. And then
23 they were looking at where the mortars were because they had their own
24 maps and they wouldn't allow us to look at those maps.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, again, you say the azimuth, the point
1 where you were. Does that mean, for example, the grid reference? The
2 exact location? Is that what you mean by "azimuth"?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes. The
4 co-ordinate, the point, exactly where we were.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what is often referred to as a grid reference.
6 On a map you look at -- you are at 76 point -- that is what you call
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then you said they measured the distance.
10 Distance between what and what? Because distance means --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were looking at the mortar
12 itself, how the barrel was turned, in which direction. As far as I can
13 remember, they were walking back and forth, taking a few steps back and
14 forth. In terms of accent that was used, our comment was that this must
15 have been a Russian, an expert for artillery. I mean, the accent of the
16 speech that he had.
17 JUDGE ORIE: What language was he speaking?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think he spoke English, but his
20 JUDGE ORIE: So what you are telling us is that --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't sure. But that's an
23 JUDGE ORIE: You told us a minute ago that you are not that good
24 in languages that you could tell us what people were speaking and when
25 their words were translated. And I do understand your testimony to be
1 now that you were able to hear what accent this officer had when he spoke
2 English. Is that correctly understood?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've told you after that he
4 spoke English. I wasn't sure, but I understood his accent because he
5 spoke differently from the others. He knew that language less than the
6 other officers did.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So you were able to hear that the others were
8 speaking English, whereas a while ago when I asked you from what
9 language --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you they spoke
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me take you back. A minute ago when I asked you
13 from what language translation was made into your language, and then you
14 said: "Well, I'm not that good at languages. I couldn't tell you." And
15 now you're telling us that translation was made from English into
17 Have you any explanation why a minute ago you did not know what
18 language they spoke that was translated to you and where you now seem to
19 be certain about it being English and even being able to distinguish
20 between the accent in the English language?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. However, I said that
22 it was English. I said that I believed that it was English. I believe
23 that the language spoken was English. I'm not sure. However, when he
24 spoke, I realised that he spoke in a different accent than the others. I
25 didn't understand what they were saying and not everything was
1 interpreted for us.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now I would like to come back to the
3 distance. The distance is to be measured between one point and another
4 point. What distance did they measure?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Around the mortar. That's where
6 they took measurements and that's where they measured the distances.
7 From one mortar to the next, the way they were deployed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So the distance between one barrel and another
9 barrel of this mortar --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let me -- and then I do understand they used a
12 compass. Do you have any expert knowledge --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any expert knowledge on mortars?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not really.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did they further explain why, as you heard from the
17 interpreter, these could not have been the mortars that were used to fire
18 projectiles that had landed on the Markale market?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the truce was declared,
20 everything was cleaned. Caps were put on the barrels so they would not
21 go bad and the crews never approached those mortars. And it -- you could
22 see with a naked eye that no mortar had been fired.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You said caps were put on the barrels and you said
24 the crews never approached those mortars, but that's not what this
25 commission could establish, could they?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could see on the spot there
2 were no traces, nobody had been walking around them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: These mortars had been there unattended and there
4 were no footsteps, is that what you are saying as an explanation on --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my explanation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now just your personal opinion: Do you think that
7 you could fire at the centre of the city of Sarajevo with those mortars
8 as far as the location is concerned? I'm not asking whether they did or
9 whether -- it's a 120-millimetre mortar, whether that can fire in such a
10 way from that location so that it would be possible for a projectile to
11 land on the Markale market?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand your question fully.
13 My personal opinion about 82 mortars [as interpreted], but this is
14 120-millimetre artillery. There is no way a shell could have landed
15 there. There is a six-storey building and several three- or four-storey
16 buildings. I used to come to that market every week for several years.
17 I know the layout. And there were never so many people there at any one
18 time that one round could have done so much damage. Historically, it was
19 unknown. And in any case, that round could not have flown over that high
20 building and could not have landed there.
21 I really have my doubts about the whole thing. I believe that
22 something had been planted. I am convinced. And the round was never
23 fired from there. Either I or Gengo approved firing of the rounds when
24 targets were defined according to range finders and those were only
25 military targets. We did not have that many rounds so we were very
1 careful how many we used; in other words, none of the crew were allowed
2 or dared fire a round independently. I claim with full responsibility
3 that that was not done from the positions of the 7th Battalion or from
4 any of the positions of the VRS.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us whether the members of the
6 commission that visited this site, whether they had expert knowledge
7 about mortars?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so. Two of the officers
9 were very familiar with artillery.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And how do you know that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the others were standing on
12 the side and they were looking for a good spot from which they could
13 define co-ordinates and the distance between the barrels and everything
14 else, and they were the only ones who commented on the situation. The
15 others didn't.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And were they the foreign officers or were they
17 members --
18 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- of the VRS?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were UNPROFOR members,
21 foreigners. Our men did not have the right to approach the barrels. We
22 were just observers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But it was a mixed commission, wasn't it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but they were the ones doing
25 and we were the ones watching.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you said from their comments you
2 understood that they were experts.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You couldn't understand their comments, could you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but we heard it from the
6 interpreter, providing that the interpretation was accurate.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So you now describe the commission as UNPROFOR
8 coming close to the location of the mortars; VRS Main Staff,
9 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, staying at a distance, not even verifying their
10 measurements or -- the UNPROFOR made?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were all rather close to the
12 barrels. When we came close to the mortars, we were standing near the
13 trenches where our troops were deployed, and they were the ones who
14 approached the mortars and took all the measurements. They did
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did they share the measurements with you? Did they
17 write it down and give it to you or to the Main Staff people?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They marked those measurements in
19 their own maps. As far as I know, they did not give us anything.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So that commission didn't share anything they noted
21 down at that moment with the --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing was handed over. I believe
23 that they promised that they would send everything through official
25 JUDGE ORIE: And they have kept that promise or did they break
1 that promise?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what happened. If
3 they did send anything, it was sent to a superior command.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said: "I believe that they promised ..."
5 You are not certain about that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did promise, but I don't know
7 whether they delivered on that promise. I think that they should have
8 sent it to our superior command.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is it, then, that a few days later another
10 UNPROFOR group came to the spot?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And how was that composed?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The head of that group was a French
14 major. I believe that they belonged to the legion of foreigners.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And what did they do exactly during that visit?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We inspected both mortar positions,
17 and on the way back, we also looked at Moscanica water source.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And did they measure anything? And if so, what did
19 they measure?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't measure anything.
21 They just looked at the positions and then they returned. The whole
22 visit was perhaps 10 minutes long. That's how long we stayed in the
24 JUDGE ORIE: And without having measured anything, I do
25 understand you heard from the interpreter that the battalion had nothing
1 to do with this incident?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That major said it personally when
3 we returned to the command. He gave us belts, to me and to my commander,
4 while the interpreter interpreted for us.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did they explain to you how just looking at
6 the spot a bit, how they could establish that the battalion had got
7 nothing to do with the incident, not having measured anything?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the statement was
9 provided based on the previous investigations which were carried out both
10 in Sarajevo and on the spot by the mortar positions. That was not his
11 personal opinion. I believe that he just conveyed what his superiors
13 JUDGE ORIE: And was the first visit, did he tell that that had
14 been part of the information on which his superiors had concluded that
15 your battalion had got nothing to do with it, was that part of the
16 information on which this conclusion was drawn? And I mean with the
17 first visit, the mixed commission you told us about.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the way I understood him.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
20 Have the questions by -- first of all, Mr. Stojanovic, any need
21 for further questions?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. And I thank
24 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need
25 for further questions by the Prosecution?
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, if I can just check one thing. No,
2 Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes your testimony, Mr. Dzida. I'd
4 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
5 answered all the questions that were put to you; questions put to you by
6 the parties, questions put to you by the Bench. I wish you a safe return
7 home again. You may follow the usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
12 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'm afraid we'll have to wait until the usher
14 returns --
15 MR. LUKIC: Probably.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- in order to have the witness escorted into the
18 Mr. Groome.
19 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, if I can make use of this time.
20 Last week the Chamber had made an inquiry about UNMO documents
21 related to Lima V and I undertook to provide additional information this
22 week. Unfortunately, I think I underestimated the size of the task and
23 also the workload that we have, so I just want to inform the Chamber that
24 we are working on it actively and it may take some more time. And as
25 soon as we are able to provide fuller information to the Chamber, we will
1 do that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you please -- could we agree that -- well,
3 let's say that we hear from you somewhere in the next two weeks, would
4 that be -- or would you need more time? The problem is if we have no
5 agreed moment when we hear from you, there is always a risk that it slips
6 out of our minds.
7 MR. GROOME: I appreciate that. I think Mr. Stojanovic undertook
8 to provide that before the break. Could we set that as the date, the
9 control date. But I think we will be able to provide something well in
10 advance of that. So we would undertake to provide it at the same time as
11 the Defence, but we'll endeavour to do it before then.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, before the summer recess --
13 MR. GROOME: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- you say, yes. Okay. Then we'll hear from you
15 before --
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour. We
17 spoke to our witness who mentioned those reports, and he promised to send
18 us information about those members of UNPROFOR with whom he spoke and
19 then we will investigate further.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's on the record.
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, may Ms. MacGregor and I please be
23 excused. Do you mind if we --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
3 make a solemn declaration. May I invite you to make that solemn
4 declaration of which the text is now handed out to you.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
8 Mr. Cvoro, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find
9 him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
10 You may proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO CVORO
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.
16 A. Good afternoon to you, sir.
17 Q. I will call up a document in e-court. You will see it on your
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D1606.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, there is some fear that it may be the
21 wrong number and that what you really want to look at is 1D1601.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the case, perhaps Madam Registrar could
24 show you --
25 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I misspoke. I think I called for 1D1606.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we wonder whether that's really the
2 document. Madam Registrar has a suspicion that you might want to see --
3 MR. LUKIC: Well --
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- 1601.
5 MR. LUKIC: As always, Madam Registrar is right in these matters.
6 I'm --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's look at that one and see whether you are happy
8 to proceed.
9 Madam Registrar, now is on the screen -- could you tell us, we
10 have now a statement of -- which mentions the name of Mr. Cvoro. Could
11 you tell us what number that document is?
12 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 1D1601.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. LUKIC: And thank you to Madam Registrar.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. She assists the Defence in getting the right
17 document on the screen.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro, I apologise. A little confusion
21 occurred. You can see the document on the screen, don't you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Did you see the statement before and did you sign it?
24 A. Yes, I did see it before and I signed it.
25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page, please.
1 Q. Mr. Cvoro, do you recognise your signature on this page?
2 A. Yes, this is my signature and the date when I signed the
4 Q. Does this statement accurately reflect what you stated before the
5 Defence team?
6 A. I said what I had to say.
7 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your
8 answers be the same?
9 A. My answers would be the same.
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender this statement
11 as well as the associated documents. It's package 92 ter and we would
12 like to have it admitted.
13 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, first, good afternoon.
14 Second, just one brief objection regarding the statement. I'm
15 informed there is a translation inconsistency in paragraph 2 as to
16 whether Mr. Cvoro was selected or elected to be president of the
17 Executive Board, and I wonder if that could be remedied before it's
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you have a look at the original, Mr. Lukic,
20 and see whether it is about election or selection.
21 MR. LUKIC: Can we have witness statement, and we need page 2,
22 paragraph 2, in front of us.
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro, line 3.
24 A. I was elected to that position because I offered the best plan of
25 work and I did not apply along party lines.
1 MR. LUKIC: I thank my learned friend for drawing my attention.
2 I was not aware of this difference.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I take it, then, in the original it's also
4 about elections --
5 MR. LUKIC: Elections.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now it's a minor thing. Should we ask the revision
7 of the translation or can we leave it to this as --
8 MR. TRALDI: With it having been corrected on the transcript,
9 Mr. President --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. TRALDI: -- I withdraw my objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Registrar, the statement -- let me see.
13 We have not yet had a number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1601 receives number D492,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then D492 is admitted into evidence.
17 Mr. Lukic, could we go through the associated exhibits.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes. One --
19 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. Traldi, no objections against any
20 of the associated exhibits?
21 MR. TRALDI: No, Mr. President. I understand there is only one
22 that's not yet in evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would only be 1D02022. Is that correct,
24 Mr. --
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, that's our associated exhibit and I --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the one and only.
2 Madam Registrar, that document receives number?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D02022 receives number D493,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D493 is admitted into evidence, and the other
6 associated exhibit is already in evidence.
7 Let's proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. I will read statement summary of this
9 witness and it will be very short, even shorter than 35 lines.
10 Witness Zdravko Cvoro was president of the Executive Board of
11 Pale municipality. He will testify about the situation in the
12 municipality of Pale in the relevant time-period. The municipality of
13 Pale was overcome with trouble and distress of providing accommodations
14 and humanitarian aid to refugees.
15 Territorial Defence Staff controlled TO units and Crisis Staffs
16 were formed automatically for emergency situations. The witness will
17 testify how crimes committed against Serbs by Muslims in other areas made
18 Muslim inhabitants of Pale fearful of retribution.
19 The president of Pale municipality and the witness actively tried
20 to get Bosnian Muslims to stay, and thus there was no forced expulsion of
22 That would be the summary.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any further --
24 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- questions for the witness, then please go ahead.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Please can we have -- yes, we have paragraph 3 on our screen of
3 Mr. Cvoro's statement, and I would have few questions in regard to this
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Cvoro, what was the position of municipal
6 authorities vis-à-vis abandoned apartments? What was their number in the
8 A. Since I was the president of the executive power, I ordered that
9 each local commune and lower units had commissions set up. Those
10 commissions would make lists of abandoned property. In Pale, there were
11 over 2.000 weekend cottages because Pale was the lungs of Sarajevo. It
12 is a small town which was a tourist destination. It lived off tourism.
13 The climate and position of Pale lured many and inspired them to build
14 their weekend cottages there.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Lukic, if I may just ask a question.
16 Mr. Cvoro, do you have -- by any chance know by whom these
17 apartments had been abandoned? I'm talking about ethnicity.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. I'm talking about
19 Muslim apartments and Muslim properties. And as for weekend cottages,
20 they belonged to Muslims, Serbs, and Croats alike, because a weekend
21 cottage is a holiday dwelling and many - including Muslims, Croats, and
22 Serbs - were not present in those weekend cottages at the time.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Did you manage to protect the property of those
1 people who had abandoned the municipality of Pale?
2 A. I take pride in the fact that all of the properties belonging to
3 Muslims were mostly protected and preserved owing to the conscientious
4 work of the commission. Before they took possession of an apartment,
5 they listed all the abandoned properties. Whenever those houses were
6 assigned to refugees and displaced persons, there was a record of the
7 hand-over and they could only enter such properties under the control of
8 municipal authorities. I'm not saying that there were no abuses. There
9 were abuses, but we fought hard against those abuses.
10 Q. Where did the first refugees arrive from in Pale?
11 A. The first refugees arrived in Pale from the direction of
12 Sarajevo. Those were Serbs. They had abandoned their territories, the
13 places where they resided. I was among the first who abandoned their
14 apartment and I arrived in Pale. When I was making a decision as to what
15 to do, whether to stay or leave, I discussed the matter with my family
16 and we decided that I had better make a mistake than to be sorry for the
17 rest of my life.
18 Many of the Serbs who lived in Sarajevo fled to Pale. And many
19 Serbs also came from the depth of the territory across Serb territories,
20 over mountains, and they arrived in Pale. One of such groups of refugees
21 from Sarajevo consisted of the Serbian population from Pofalici. Under
22 fire and facing skirmishes in the area, they fled, barefoot, without any
23 belongings, they travelled across the mountain, and I don't know how they
24 managed to get to Pale. I was informed about them during the night. I
25 arrived there and we opened the school for them where they were
1 accommodated for the time being.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock. It's time for
3 a break. Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.
4 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Mr. Cvoro. You may
5 follow the usher.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we will resume at 20 minutes to
9 --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. May we continue, Mr. Cvoro?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were talking about the refugees from Pofalici and that you
16 accommodated them at the school. Where did you accommodate refugees
18 A. Well, a large number of them were received by the inhabitants of
19 Pale; in particular, the elderly, the women, and the children. They were
20 among the first. And then, as there was a great number of refugees
21 arriving, we couldn't accommodate them all so we then forwarded some of
22 them to Serbia. There were between five to ten buses with refugees that
23 we sent on to Serbia. Sometimes even more. But the Municipal Assembly
24 was in charge of the refugees. So they would first gather together in
25 the big hall of the Municipal Assembly building, and we then brought them
1 food and so on.
2 Q. I'm making a short pause because of interpretation.
3 You said that five to ten buses left for Serbia, but in what
4 time-period, as you didn't make any reference?
5 A. During the day.
6 Q. Did you prevent anyone from leaving?
7 A. None except for the conscripts, the recruits who had to respond
8 to call-ups for the mobilisation of the TO and the army units.
9 Q. Did people of other ethnicities - that is to say, the Muslims and
10 the Croats - leave Pale at one point?
11 A. Do you mean generally?
12 Q. When they left.
13 A. They left at their own request.
14 Q. What about the Muslims who were recruits? Could they leave?
15 A. They stayed in Pale. They simply boycotted the call-ups for
16 mobilisation. Those who personally requested to leave, I don't know, but
17 it's possible that some even left for Serbia.
18 Q. As for the Croats who lived in Pale, did they leave Pale in great
20 A. Most of the Croats stayed in Pale and joined the Army of
21 Republika Srpska.
22 Q. All right. You have told us in your statement about the position
23 to moving out, but we need another document.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D2023, please.
25 Q. You will soon see it on the screen in front of you. It is a
1 short document. We can see that it's dated the 12th of June, 1992. The
2 president of the Municipal Assembly of Pale, Radislav Starcevic,
3 addresses the secretary of the Pale SDS. So that the party would adopt a
4 general position on the moving out of the non-Serbian population from the
5 territory of Pale municipality --
6 A. May I --
7 Q. Are you aware of this document? Do you have a comment?
8 A. I'm aware of this document. Radislav Starcevic was the president
9 of the Municipal Assembly in Pale. He was both a political figure and
10 the president of the legislative powers because the Assembly is the
11 highest legislative organ in the municipality, that is to say, of the
12 local authorities. It's normal that he had to address somebody to have a
13 basis for convening the Assembly as problems arose with the Muslims
14 moving away.
15 Q. Now let us briefly look at --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But I would tender this document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2023 receives number D494,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us look at another document,
22 1D2103, please.
23 Q. Did you have an opportunity to see this document earlier?
24 A. Yes, I have seen this document. It's a document from the police
25 station in Pale and it followed from the Municipal Assembly decision from
1 a session that was held on the 18th of June, 1992.
2 Q. What about this on the screen?
3 A. It's a request for a departure and for changing the place of
5 Q. You mean it was addressed to the SUP in Pale?
6 A. No -- yes, addressed to the SUP in Pale, but it was the
7 population, the Muslims from Pale who addressed this document to it.
8 Q. Did you see this document at the time or only during your
9 preparations for testimony in the Karadzic case?
10 A. Only during the proofing for my testimony in the Karadzic case.
11 Q. At the time, did you learn from conversation with the colleagues
12 you worked with that such a request had been submitted and that there
13 were requests submitted by Muslims who wanted to leave the territory of
14 Pale municipality?
15 A. Well, I just said a while ago that the decision or the
16 conclusion - I'm not sure how it was formulated - of the Assembly said
17 that the records about the departure of Muslims would be kept by the
18 public security station in Pale. On the basis of that conclusion, this
19 request submitted by Muslims in which they asked to be allowed to depart
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would tender this document as
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2103 receives number D495,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now if we could please have 1D2021,
4 Q. This document shows that SRNA, the Serbian press agency, reports
5 on the 22nd of May about fighting in Renovica. Did you know at the time
6 that fighting broke out, and did you know that the Muslim forces were
7 being armed in the territory of the Pale municipality?
8 A. Well, the MUP, that is to say, the police of the municipality,
9 was discharging its duties at the order of the relevant ministry. I as
10 the president of the Executive Committee or at the time -- when was that?
11 On the 22nd of June?
12 Q. May.
13 A. May. Then I performed also the duty of the president of the
14 Crisis Staff. I was informed of this activity, and I know that they went
15 in the direction of Renovica in order to disarm the Muslims. On arrival,
16 shots were fired at them. And I know that two policemen were killed,
17 whereas five or six - I don't know exactly - were wounded. A conflict
18 broke out in Renovica then and the conflict never ended, and certain
19 lines were established on the ground in that area.
20 Q. And what is the neighbouring area to Renovica, what is there?
21 A. The local commune of Renovica comprises several villages,
22 settlements, and so on, and behind it is the territory of Gorazde, which
23 was held by the Muslim control throughout the war. So behind this local
24 commune was Gorazde. Also, a part of the local commune of Praca was
25 connected with the Muslim territory leading towards Gorazde.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would tender this document, too.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2021 receives number D496,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. At the time, was the Muslim municipality of Pale already
9 proclaimed or not?
10 A. I think not at the very beginning. But much later, the Muslim
11 municipality of Pale was proclaimed, Pale Praca, and it exists to this
13 Q. What happened to the Serbs from these two places, from Renovica
14 and Praca?
15 A. The Serbian population of Renovica immediately after the conflict
16 of the police and -- I don't know how to call them, army or whoever they
17 were, in Renovica, the rebels, the Muslims, the Serbs then left the
18 territory of Renovica, even though there hadn't been many. 90 per cent
19 of the population in the local community of Renovica were ethnic Muslims.
20 As for Praca, those who were at the separation line also left their homes
21 and withdrew towards Pale.
22 Q. Thank you. As for paragraph 16 of your statement, we don't have
23 to show it on the screen, but let me just ask you something: How did the
24 Muslims leave Pale municipality?
25 A. Generally speaking, I can say that they left at their own
1 requests, in an organised manner, without any problems whatsoever.
2 Q. Did they take anything with them?
3 A. They took away all the moveable property. They even took their
4 motor vehicles.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
6 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. I think paragraph 16 deals with
7 a specific group and so the witness may be somewhat confused about the
8 questions he's being asked.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- paragraph 16 at least starts with
10 this truck -- trucks full of civilians coming from Bratunac.
11 MR. LUKIC: I can clarify. Thank you. Thank you for my learned
12 friend's help.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. When you mentioned the organised departure of Muslims from Pale,
16 was that the general manner in which they departed? I mean the Muslims
17 from Pale.
18 A. Well, I said they left in an organised manner after the
19 Municipal Assembly decision and after they submitted requests to depart
20 from this territory, rather to change their place of residence. So we
21 allowed them to do so. They did not all leave in one single day. It
22 depended on the means of transportation that we had at our disposal and
23 also security respects had to be taken into account, so they left in the
24 direction of Sarajevo successively.
25 Q. All right. Thank you.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now 1D2024. Could we just look at it
2 briefly, please.
3 Q. We see in front of us a conclusion dated the 14th of July, 1992,
4 Executive Committee of the Pale municipality. Were you the chairman at
5 the time?
6 A. Yes, yes, I was the chairman then.
7 Q. Of the Executive Committee?
8 A. Yes, of the Executive Committee. We were not satisfied with the
9 commissions that were on the ground and made lists of moveable and
10 immovable property. So we reacted and we adopted this conclusion.
11 Q. What did you actually want to achieve with this conclusion?
12 A. We wanted to revise the previous work of the commissions as we
13 were not happy about it. There had been some unlawful acts, some
14 property was misappropriated, and we then set up a revisory committee
15 whose duty was to review the situation on the ground, to question the
16 people who had made some abuses, and to take certain measures that were
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we also see the last page of
19 the document, please. That's page 2 in B/C/S.
20 Q. It says down here "Chairman Zdravko Cvoro," but I don't know
21 whether this before it is "for"?
22 A. Somebody signed that for me. But I remember it. I remember the
24 Q. This is not your signature?
25 A. No, it's not.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document
4 MR. TRALDI: No objection, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2024 receives number D497,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. LUKIC: Just give me one second.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Just briefly, tell us in whose weekend cottage
11 you were in Pale and in what condition did you hand it over to the man
12 who was the owner?
13 A. I said in my statement and I said during the trial of
14 Mr. Karadzic that I was in Hajrudin Somun's weekend cottage. He was
15 either chef de cabinet or some advisor to Alija Izetbegovic. At the very
16 outset - and he said that to me afterwards when we saw each other the
17 war - he heard that his weekend cottage had been burned down, destroyed,
18 that basically none of it was there anymore. After the war he came and,
19 actually, he started working in the Ministry for Foreign Affairs, and
20 some colleagues from Pale worked there too. He asked, "Do you know where
21 my weekend cottage is and who is there now?" And they said that they
22 knew and that a man, Zdravko Cvoro, was there. And he asked them for my
23 telephone number and he contacted me.
24 When he came to the weekend cottage, that was his property, of
25 course, when he looked around he burst into tears. He said, "I cannot
1 believe that everything is in its place." And he said, "Zdravko, you're
2 a better man than I am." And I said, "Why, Hajrudin?" And he said, "You
3 kept everything for me and I don't know if I would have kept things for
4 you that way." And he said that he would thank me publicly through the
5 media. He did that and, among other things, he said what he said and
6 finally he said, "It's not only that he kept everything for me, I even
7 found the last newspaper that I read in that weekend cottage."
8 I'm not saying this for my own sake. I'm saying this on behalf
9 of my fellow citizens who behaved in that way and in a similar way,
10 preserving the property of the Muslims in Pale. All this property was
11 returned, preserved, and further on they did whatever they chose to do.
12 Q. In what kind of condition did you find your apartment in
14 A. Totally destroyed, without anything there.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cvoro. That is all that I had for you for the
16 time being.
17 A. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
19 Mr. Traldi, are you ready to start your cross-examination of the
21 MR. TRALDI: I am, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Cvoro, you'll now be cross-examined by
23 Mr. Traldi. Mr. Traldi, and I see you are looking already at him, is
24 counsel for the Prosecution.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
1 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Cvoro, before we turn to some of the specific events
4 that are addressed in your statement, I want to ask very briefly: Have
5 you spoken to anyone who has testified already in this case?
6 A. No, no, I don't know of anyone from this case that has anything
7 to do with this kind of thing.
8 Q. Have you spoken to Dragan Maletic?
9 A. Dragan is my neighbour. He lives 200 metres away from me, and I
10 haven't spoken to him at all about the case that has to do with this.
11 Q. Setting aside the topic of any discussions you might have had
12 with him for a moment, my question is just: Have you spoken to him since
13 you've arrived in The Hague about any topic at all?
14 A. Well, we talked about some of our private matters. He is
15 carrying out this training. Then we talked about life and work in the
16 area of Pale. As for his case or my case, they are not interlinked at
17 all. I wasn't interested in his case and he wasn't interested in mine.
18 Q. Have you spoken with anyone else who will be testifying in this
19 case at some later time?
20 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you: You say he was not
22 interested in my case, I was not interested in his case. What do you
23 know about his case so as to say that you are not interested in it? What
24 does he know about your case, I take it your testimony, that he showed to
25 be not interested? How can you do that without talking about it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was in the territory of
2 Grbavica. He did not even live in Pale during the war. I assumed that,
3 I mean, he was supposed to testify about that. Also, he was not in the
4 territory of Pale. He is not familiar with that subject matter. We did
5 not discuss that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, not being interested in the other
7 one's case suggests that you or he has expressed not being interested in
8 it, isn't it?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no. No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: You just assume that he's not interested in your
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly. He never even
13 asked me anything about that and I never asked him either.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put a follow-up question to the witness.
16 Sir, I'm asking you now -- I'm asking you now.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, sorry.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said to one of the first questions of
19 Mr. Traldi:
20 "No, I don't know of anyone from this case that has anything to
21 do with this kind of thing. I don't know of anyone."
22 And then you confirmed that you have met Mr. Maletic. Where did
23 you meet him?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, this is the way it
25 is: I did not know Maletic at all until the Radovan Karadzic trial, and
1 he's only 200 metres away from my house. And we never saw each other
2 anywhere. We don't see each other in Pale. I'm a pensioner. He is an
3 entrepreneur. He's working. We don't really have any contact as
4 neighbours or any other kind of contacts so that --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I stop you. This was not my question. Where
6 did you meet him? Did you meet him here in The Hague?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here in The Hague. That's where we
8 met. He came before me. We met at the hotel.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And at that time you knew that he is also here in
10 The Hague in order to testify as a witness; correct?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I saw him I assumed that he
12 came to testify.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And why did you say at the beginning: "No, I
14 don't know of anyone from this case that has anything to do with this
15 kind of thing," when you were asked if you have spoken to anybody?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether that's what I
17 said. I don't know anyone who is from my part. Well, that's what I
18 meant. I don't know what I said. Or if I said it in that way. From my
19 part of the testimony.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi asked you:
21 "Have you spoken to anyone who has testified already in this
23 And then you said:
24 "No, no. I don't know of anyone from this case ...," and so on.
25 I leave it to that, Mr. Traldi.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But at the same time it's a quarter past 2.00,
2 Mr. Traldi.
3 MR. TRALDI: I have just one more question on this general topic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's, then, this hear this one question and the
5 answer and then adjourn.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir, you signed your statement on the 10th of May of this year.
8 Where were you when you signed your statement?
9 A. In Pale.
10 Q. And I should have been more specific, but what building in Pale
11 did you sign your statement in?
12 A. The public security centre in Pale.
13 MR. TRALDI: That was all I had on this topic, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
15 We will adjourn for the day, but I would like to instruct you
16 first that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever
17 other way with whomever about your testimony. Testimony means testimony
18 you have given today but it also applies to testimony still to be given
19 next week, because we'd like to see you back on Monday morning at 9.30 in
20 this same courtroom. You may follow the usher.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume Monday, the
24 2nd of June, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the morning.
25 But you're on your feet, Mr. Lukic, so I don't know for sure
1 whether we adjourn already.
2 MR. LUKIC: I don't want to interrupt you especially when you
3 want to close the day, but you know that there is an issue about our
4 fixed witness on Monday. So you instructed me to ask you whether it
5 would be possible, since this witness has to leave on Tuesday. And I
6 spoke with Mr. Cvoro. He was not happy with the solution but he accepted
7 that if that gentleman has to leave, he'll wait for his testimony to
9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you -- apart from speaking to Mr. Cvoro, do you
10 also have conversations with the Prosecution?
11 MR. GROOME: Your Honour, the Defence has informed us and we have
12 no objection. We are prepared to do Mr. Lalovic on Monday.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The reasons are really so compelling that -- because
14 the Chamber is also not very happy with interrupted witness statements.
15 What is it that makes it so compelling?
16 MR. LUKIC: The next witness got a new job and he cannot -- he
17 has been on that job only for 10 or 15 days, so he hardly got this short
18 period of time because he just started to work, and he's in a danger to
19 lose that job he was waiting for for more than a year.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber allows the change of the order of the
22 appearing of witnesses.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The present witness does not, at least not strongly
25 object, Prosecution does not object.
1 Madam Registrar, could the Victims and Witness Section inform
2 Mr. Cvoro that he is not expected at 9.30 in the morning. Any chance
3 that later in the morning he would --
4 MR. LUKIC: If possible, we would like to continue with Mr. Cvoro
5 on Monday.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if Mr. Traldi would like to --
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, depends on Mr. Traldi --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. LUKIC: -- if Mr. Lalovic is finished.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we expect him to take less than a whole
11 day in court.
12 MR. TRALDI: I'd like that too, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn for the day and we'll start
14 hearing the next witness Monday morning and then after that continue with
15 Mr. Cvoro. The date is still the same, 2nd of June. Place is still the
16 same, courtroom I. And the time is 9.30. We stand adjourned.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day
19 of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.