Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22040

 1                           Tuesday, 3 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 9             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries were reported.

12             Mr. Groome, you received the outcome of the Chamber's response to

13     your proposals, which [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             MR. GROOME:  Yes, Your Honour, we have, yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And a further detail most likely will follow in the

16     course of this morning.

17             MR. GROOME:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is the Defence ready to call its next

19     witness?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we are.  We would like to have on

21     the stand, Mr. Lubura, Veljko.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted into the

23     courtroom.

24             Mr. Lukic.  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Mladic talked again with -- at a

25     volume which is not an acceptable one.  Let's try to avoid that the same

Page 22041

 1     has to be done as we had to do yesterday.

 2             No speaking aloud.  Consulting at very low volume is allowed.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Lubura.

 6             The usher will hand out you to the text of a solemn declaration.

 7     I would like to invite to you make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  VELJKO LUBURA

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

13             Mr. Lubura, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find him

14     to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

15             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

16                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Lubura.

18        A.   Good morning.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I noticed, Your Honours, I'm just

20     looking at the list, and I see that the statement from the Karadzic case

21     is marked as non-associated exhibit. [In English] And we just made a

22     supplementary statement for this witness so ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There was some confusion about the reference in

24     paragraph 12 of the motion referring to two associated exhibits, where in

25     Annex C I think we did not find an associated exhibit.

Page 22042

 1             MR. LUKIC:  So I would call on the screen 1D2109.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the statement from the Karadzic case.

 3     This is the cover page.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Lubura, towards the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, do you

 6     recognise the signature?

 7        A.   Yes, it's mine.

 8        Q.   Do you remember giving this statement to the Defence team of

 9     Mr. Karadzic?

10        A.   Yes.  And I testified before this court.

11        Q.   Would you change anything to this statement or would you stand by

12     what you said to Mr. Karadzic's Defence?

13        A.   I would stand by the same statement.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at 1D1629.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you see on the left the signature?  Do you recognise it?

18        A.   It's my signature.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page of this

20     document.

21        Q.   Do you recognise the signature on the last page?

22        A.   Yes, that's mine too.

23        Q.   Now, in this statement, 1D1629, we need page 2.  Paragraph 2.

24             You told me last night when we had a chance to talk that the

25     indication until when you were an engineer in Energoinvest in charge of

Page 22043

 1     long-distance power transmission lines is wrong.

 2        A.   Yes, it should be August 1992.  Until August 1992.  It must be a

 3     typo.

 4        Q.   Do you mean August or April?

 5        A.   April 1992.  If you want the exact date, until 3rd April, 1992.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you the same questions in the

 7     present case, General Mladic's case, would you give the same answers as

 8     to the Karadzic team?

 9        A.   Yes.  Everything would be exactly the same.

10        Q.   After this correction to paragraph 2, you would accept the

11     statement as yours?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender

14     both statements by Mr. Lubura because it's obvious that the second

15     statement is only a supplement to the first one, and that has been

16     stressed in paragraph 1.

17             MR. JEREMY:  No objections, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2109 receives number D500.

20             And document 1D1629 receives number D501, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

22             Mr. Lukic, I find the name of the witness spelled in your

23     submissions in different ways.  Sometimes Lubara, sometimes Lubura.  I

24     try to listen to you and then it sounded as Lubara but I think it --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 22044

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- may be Lubura.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Lubura.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Lubura with a --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Lubura.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- two times a U instead of --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- two times an A.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would also offer for the admission

11     two associated exhibits.  They were two maps that were introduced in

12     Karadzic case through this witness as well.  It's 1D2110 and 1D2111.

13             MR. JEREMY:  No objections to the associated exhibits,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2110 receives number D502.

17             And document 1D2111 receives number D503, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Both are admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would read summary of the

21     statement of this witness, with your leave.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24             During the war, Veljko Lubura, was engaged in compulsory work

25     service at the Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska.  He kept a post of a

Page 22045

 1     chief engineer for the distribution of electric energy.  Upon

 2     reorganisation of the Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska in August 1992,

 3     he was appointed director of the Elektroprenos plant in Ilidza.  That

 4     means electro transmission.

 5             In 1992 and later on, Serb company led by Mr. Lubura, tried to

 6     repair the Reljevo-Vogosca and Vogosca-Velesici and Vogosca-Sokolac

 7     transmission lines but mainly failed to do so because of the combat

 8     operations and obstruction by the Muslim side; in particular, the Muslim

 9     side obstructing the supply of the Vogosca substation where the Pretis

10     and TAS factories were situated.  Those factories were in Serbian hands.

11             Due to these obstructions, the Velesici substation did not

12     receive electric power to transmit it further across the part of the city

13     under Muslim control.

14             In late 1992, the Serbs managed to put in operation the

15     Vogosca-Rogatica-Sokolac transmission line that the Muslim army had

16     damaged in Gornja Lijeska.  This created the conditions for the

17     hydropower to start operating with technological minimum.

18             In late 1992, the Serbs tried to distribute electric power to 15

19     Muslim settlement of Hrasnica.  Given that Hrasnica-Blazuj transmission

20     line and cables were cut, they were not able to do this without major

21     repair work, and these were all along the lines of disengagement between

22     the Serbian and Muslim armies.

23             Blazuj substation was shelled by Juka Prazina units, and for this

24     reason the whole area of north western Sarajevo, both Serbian and Muslim

25     parts, remained without electric power supply until the end of

Page 22046

 1     January 1993.

 2             Blazuj substation was shelled -- sorry.  Strike that.

 3             The lack of electric power supply in the core city under the

 4     Muslim control was due to the failures in the transmission line which

 5     usually occurred along the line of disengagement.  When such a thing

 6     happened, they would negotiate at the airport to carry out joint repair

 7     work in the presence of UNPROFOR.  On one occasion, while attempting to

 8     repair a transmission line, they came under the fire originating from

 9     Ugarsko [phoen] which was under Muslim control.

10             With the liberation of Trnovo in July 1993, Serb side managed to

11     repair the Buk Bijela-Lukavica transmission line and thus bring in

12     quality energy power from Montenegro to the Lukavica substation.  The

13     company of Mr. Lubura was prepared to transmit further part of the energy

14     to substations in Dobrinja, Otoka, and Skenderija on the Muslim side

15     under the condition that the transmission lines connecting these

16     substations were repaired.  However, the Muslim side showed no interest

17     in this proposal.

18             Veljko Lubura responsibly claims that nobody, both from the

19     municipal or republican level, civilian or military authorities, ever

20     ordered him, orally or in writing, to cut off electric power supply to

21     any part of Sarajevo, and he would not done this even if given such

22     instructions.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please proceed.  It seems that you have

24     forgotten a bit about the 35 lines.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe I'm a few lines --

Page 22047

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You were shorter last time.  Let's leave it to that.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  I really tried with this one.  I had four

 5     pages so it was not easy to cut down.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any further questions for the witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would propose a few more

 8     questions to this witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, but not until after I have given an

10     opportunity to Judge Moloto to address.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Lukic, just for my own edification, what do we mean by line

13     of disengagement?

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's front line.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Front line.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So it's a line of engagement.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Engagement, yeah.  Probably it has to become a line

20     of disengagement if they want to repair something.  But ...

21             I would like that have 1D2110.  That -- I -- it has a new number.

22     I didn't jot it down probably.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Number is D502, Your Honours.

24             MR. LUKIC:  So please put D502 into the e-court.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lubura, do you see the map in front of you?

Page 22048

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   We see various numbers here.  I'll ask you one by one to proceed

 3     faster.

 4             We see Sarajevo 7; that's Buca Potok.  In whose hands was this

 5     transformer station?

 6        A.   In Muslim hands.

 7        Q.   Sarajevo 2, Velesici?

 8        A.   In Muslim hands.

 9        Q.   Sarajevo 5, Kosevo?

10        A.   Muslim.

11        Q.   Sarajevo 13, Skenderija?

12        A.   In Muslim hands, 13, 14, 15, and 8.

13        Q.   What about 18, Hrasnica?

14        A.   Also in Muslim hands.

15        Q.   Now I'll ask you what was in Serb hands.  Do you see Reljevo?

16        A.   Sarajevo 10, Reljevo, was in Serbian hands.  It's one of the most

17     powerful one; 400 kilowatts.  One of the most powerful in the former

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Then Sarajevo 1, Blazuj, next to Ilidza, also in

19     Serb hands.  And Sarajevo 20, Lukavica, also in Serb hands.

20        Q.   Sarajevo 4, Vogosca?

21        A.   That was also in Serb hands.  That was within the compound of the

22     PAS and Pretis -- sorry, TAS and Pretis.  It was very close to the

23     separation line.  Muslim trenches were very close by.  At a distance of

24     up to 500 metres were the Muslim trenches.

25        Q.   For the Muslim territory of the city of Sarajevo electricity had

Page 22049

 1     to be transmitted through Serb territory; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   If the Serbs had stopped the flow of electricity to the Muslims,

 4     would they have electricity themselves?

 5        A.   No, they wouldn't.  This entire north-west part of Sarajevo,

 6     municipalities Hadzici, Ilidza, Rajlovac, parts of Vogosca and parts of

 7     Ilijas, Serbs would not have power either because the transformer station

 8     Reljevo was fed by a 110-kilowatt long-distance transmission line from

 9     Kiseljak and the connection was either by aerial from Kraka, Mount

10     Jablanica -- Kakanj, sorry, and the hydropower station Jablanica which

11     were under Muslim control.  Therefore, if anyone had cut off the power

12     transmission towards the Muslim part of Sarajevo, of course, the Muslims

13     would have cut off power to them immediately.  So, in that north-west

14     part of the Sarajevo city, over 100.000 Serbs would be left without

15     electricity and so would the Muslims in the central part of Sarajevo.

16        Q.   Which line of supply was in operation during the war?  To the

17     city I mean.

18        A.   After the outbreak of the conflict in the former

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, most of the energy assets were immediately damaged to

20     a great extent, and the only two transmission lines that were in

21     operation that we had managed to repair was the supply from Kiseljak to

22     Reljevo, 110-kilowatts, that was the transformer station Sarajevo 10, and

23     from Sarajevo 10 to Buca Potok up to the transformer station Sarajevo 7,

24     that was operating.  All the others had suffered major damage.

25        Q.   What about nowadays, are all the lines in operation?  What is

Page 22050

 1     going on with the Lukavica-Skenderija line?

 2        A.   Yes.  Nowadays all of the lines which had been damaged were

 3     repaired in 2003 by virtue of the Power 3 project.  The entire

 4     semi-circle of -- called Nikola Tesla has been repaired including all

 5     110-kilowatts networks in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Both the federal and the

 6     Serbian and the Herzegovina electric boards fixed their respective

 7     networks.  When it comes to the city of Sarajevo, all the lines are up

 8     save for line 20 at Lukavica and the Skenderija 1.  That transmission

 9     line has not been repaired to date for reasons unbeknownst to me because

10     I no longer work for Elektroprivreda.  I have retired.

11        Q.   Thank you.  We are done with this map, and I'd like to see 1D2111

12     next.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  For the record, this is document D503 now.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the general area of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16     We can see almost all of it.  Concerning this map, can you tell us what

17     happens when the system is left without any transmission lines?

18        A.   On this map, we see all 400- and 220- and 110-kilovolt

19     transmission lines in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina as well as

20     connections to the neighbouring republics of Croatia, Montenegro.  As

21     regards Serbia, there was no transmission line of 110, 220, and 400

22     kilovolts.  I think this map indicates the situation as of the late 1990s

23     and it was published by the electrical board of the former SFRY.  Well,

24     you see, on this map we can see that the entire of Bosnia-Herzegovina was

25     part of the 400 kilovolt semi-ring or semi-circle and the electrical

Page 22051

 1     system worked in stable conditions.  Most of the large transformer

 2     stations received power from different sources, from several sources; for

 3     example, Reljevo, which is Sarajevo 10, it received power from several

 4     sources like Tuzla, Mostar, and Kakanj.  So large transformer stations

 5     had multiple sources.

 6             If there was a breakdown along one of the high voltage lines, it

 7     created instability in the entire electrical supply system.  The problem

 8     we had during the war was that the system that was in place was very

 9     unstable.  Most transformer stations had single sources and energy

10     sources also had only one line carrying electricity further afield.  It

11     means that no matter where there was a breakdown in the network, it

12     affected the entire network and the entire system could cave in causing

13     electricity to be cut off in wide, very wide area.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if I look at this map and especially the

16     "legenda," I see "crvena linija," "zelena linija," and another, "crna

17     linija," but we have no translation for that.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the legend on the screen?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It's on the top, I think.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I'll ask the witness.  It's maybe the best.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if it means red line --

23             MR. LUKIC:  It does.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it doesn't help that much to say that a

25     red line is a red line is not very helpful in understanding.  I take it

Page 22052

 1     that it refers to the kilovolt.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Red line refers to 400 kilovolts.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes, yes.  I see that.  Yes, yes.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  "Zelena linija" --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- a green line, 220 kilovolts.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I had zoomed in too much.  But therefore the

 8     red lines are the 400 kilovolts, the green lines are the 220, and then

 9     the last one was the?

10             MR. LUKIC:  "Crna linija," it's black line.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The black line, that's 110 --

12             MR. LUKIC:  110.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- kilovolt.  Thank you.  I don't think, unless the

14     Prosecution insists with a translation, that we leave it with this.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Now I would like to have 1D2112 on our

17     screens.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] You can read and speak English, Mr. Lubura,

19     can't you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Before us is a document signed by -- well, the name at the bottom

22     is that of Mrs. Biljana Plavsic.  It was sent to General Morillon.  It is

23     stated that one day previously an agreement had been reached and

24     Mrs. Plavsic is now forwarding a list of people making up the teams to

25     carry out repairs in the electrical and water networks, water supply

Page 22053

 1     networks.  In the electricians team we see at number 1,

 2     Engineer Veljko Lubura, head of the team.  Is that you?

 3        A.   Yes.  As for the others, Spasoje Marinkovic was my assistant.

 4     Dragan Despotovic was a liaison officer with UNPROFOR, tasked with

 5     electricity, water, and gas repairs.  However, he was a workmate of mine

 6     and we suggested that he be part of the team.  People under numbers 4, 5,

 7     6, and 7 were excellent professionals, excellent electricians we used to

 8     fix the lines.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10        A.   You're welcome.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We seek to tender this document as

12     well.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D --

15             MR. JEREMY:  No objections, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If I don't hear from the party after they had

17     reasonable time to jump up, then I take it that there are no objections.

18             Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2112 receives number D504,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

22             And, Mr. Jeremy, sometimes through eye contact, I try to confirm

23     that you had sufficient time but, nevertheless, did not jump up.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 22054

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Did you co-operate with UNPROFOR?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The teams which carried out repairs, were they of single

 4     ethnicity or were the people of different ethnicities there?  What was

 5     the makeup of those teams?

 6        A.   Repairing -- as regards the repair of electrical supply in Serb

 7     territory, the teams were Serbian.  But in the areas where there were

 8     separation lines where there were most damages done by combat, we had

 9     joint teams, meaning a Muslim and a Serb team.  We would meet with

10     UNPROFOR at a specified location.  We knew, more or less, where in the

11     transmission network there was damage, and joint teams went to fix it

12     together.  This is high voltage with very tall towers, and usually two

13     Serbs and two Muslims would climb those towers.  So the soldiers on

14     either side of the line couldn't tell who was on what tower, and they

15     were usually in civilian clothes or in plain blue work clothes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What was the transmission system like during the war?

17     What was the basic difference as compared to the pre-war period?

18        A.   The main difference compared to the pre-war period was that

19     during the war the electrical system worked in an instable environment.

20     No matter what caused a breakdown and no matter where in the network it

21     happened, whether it was close to the source or along the transmission

22     lines or in the distribution network, it affected the entire network

23     which would then fall apart.  Protection mechanisms would be triggered

24     and the system had to be shut down.

25        Q.   What could cause this interruption in the supply of electricity?

Page 22055

 1        A.   Such interruptions were called by the so-called systematic

 2     mistakes because the system was inherently unstable.  Other causes of

 3     breakdowns were, for example, when something malfunctioned in a

 4     transformer station itself.  Unless you had spare parts, it took a long

 5     time.  If you did have spare part, it would have been dealt with in one

 6     or two days.  As for any other problems caused by placing too much burden

 7     on the system, it was dealt with by dispatchers on either sides.  That

 8     could be dealt with in a single day.  The third problem for the most part

 9     was the physical damage of otherwise operational transmission lines.  It

10     usually happened along combat lines and separation lines.

11             For example, let's take Sarajevo 10 or Sarajevo 7 or

12     Reljevo-Buca Potok, that transmission line went across Sokolje hill where

13     there were Muslim forces.  The Serb forces were perhaps 5- to 600 metres

14     further down the hill at Mijevica [phoen] Kosa.  I am quite familiar with

15     that terrain.  So there was less than 500 metres between the two sides,

16     and when there was combat, for example, conductors would be damaged and

17     cables would fall on the ground, short-circuiting the transformer

18     station, the Reljevo transformer station would be shut off immediately

19     and we knew where the breakdown was.  In that case we relied on the

20     liaison officer to contact UNPROFOR immediately.  UNPROFOR then talked to

21     the military commands on both sides, asking that there was a lull or a

22     truce, so that we could reach the territory where the damage was in no

23     man's land to carry out repairs.  It often happened on this particular

24     transmission line.  Repairing such breakdowns usually took between four

25     and six days.

Page 22056

 1             Situation was even more serious if the Kiseljak-Reljevo

 2     transmission line was damaged, meaning that it connected Sarajevo with

 3     the source.  It would usually happen at Kokoska hill where all the three

 4     sides were, so the Serb, the Muslim, and the Croat side had to agree that

 5     all three sides give permission for our team to carry out repairs safely.

 6     So UNPROFOR needed two or three days to tour all the commands until they

 7     received confirmation.  Once they did, they would ask us to go into the

 8     field to fix it.

 9        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] What was the situation like in terms of spare

13     parts?

14        A.   At first, it was quite all right.  But as the war went on, there

15     was -- there were no more spare parts.  We particularly had problems with

16     oil for transformer stations because it was difficult to get by, and

17     all -- and the Serbs and Muslims stole such oil because they could use it

18     as fuel for vehicles.

19        Q.   How many mechanics did you have at your disposal?  In other

20     words, people who could carry out repairs?

21        A.   In my plant, there were three services.  The first and most

22     important service was that of transmission lines repairs.  I had a group

23     of four electric technicians and one foreman.

24             As for maintenance, my team was exceptional, with highly trained

25     and highly professional electricians.  But in order to maintain the

Page 22057

 1     entire network of over 200 kilometres of transmission lines, I would have

 2     needed five groups.  However, with some super-human effort, we did manage

 3     to deal with most of the disruptions.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document 1D3239,

 6     please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, what are we doing with the previous one,

 8     the one that was on our screen?  The Plavsic --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Didn't I offer that for admission?  If I haven't yet,

10     I would like to have it admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think it was D504; is that correct?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I missed that.  There's, however, it appears to

16     be in English only in e-court.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  That's, I think, sufficient enough.  It's

18     UNPROFOR document.  We do not translate it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we can read it --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  But for -- of course, for the public character of

22     the trial, one may wonder whether it not be preferable to have all the

23     evidence available in the two languages.  But let's -- let's consider

24     that.  It's not such a vital document, but I just noticed that.

25             Please proceed.

Page 22058

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lubura, we are looking at an UNPROFOR

 3     document dated the 15th of June, 1995.

 4             I'm going to read the first paragraph, which states:

 5             [In English] "At the very last minute, the Bosnian side this

 6     afternoon rejected a proposal to restore utilities to Sarajevo.  The

 7     Serbian side had agreed to the necessary technical agreements [sic]

 8     arranged by Mr. John Fawcett from the office of the special co-ordinator

 9     for Sarajevo.  But the Bosnian side insisted on UNPROFOR control of

10     Bacevo (Sarajevo's main water-pumping station which is on Serb-controlled

11     territory) as well as several gas supply points."

12             [Interpretation] Let me ask you this:  In your work, did you ever

13     find the Muslim side to obstruct agreements or prevent repair work.  Do

14     you know of any such cases?

15        A.   I do.  I was personally there with a repair team when we tried to

16     repair the transmission line Sarajevo 10 Vogosca.  And if we had managed

17     to fix the transmission line, then we could transmit electricity from

18     Sarajevo 10 Reljevo to the Vogosca transformer station.  And then after

19     repairing the Vogosca-Velesici line, then we could use a part of that

20     energy and transmit it to the Velesici transformer station which was

21     under Muslim control.

22             I don't recall the date precisely, but I was there personally at

23     Zuc hill.  We were assisted by the Spanish battalion.  We were fired on.

24     The repair team was a mixed team of Serbs and Muslims, but we were fired

25     at from village of Ugarsko [phoen] which was under Muslim control, and

Page 22059

 1     this transmission line was never repaired nor could the teams ever get to

 2     it.  I know for sure that the Muslim side did not want the Vogosca

 3     transformer station to receive electricity because that is where the TAS

 4     and Pretis factories were.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 6     be asked not to get so close to the microphone.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you not to come too close to

 8     the microphone.  The interpreters would prefer you to keep a certain

 9     small distance to the microphone.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We would like to tender

12     this document as MFI, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D3239 receives number D505,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.  Also in view of

17     the lack of a B/C/S translation, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I noted this.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Yes, it's MFI'd, under the number

20     given by Madam Registrar.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

22        Q.   Were there any technical reasons why the Muslim side could not

23     have more electric power?

24        A.   Yes.  I will explain that.  The Buca Potok or Sarajevo 10 to

25     Reljevo line, we were unable to pass on -- through more electricity, 20

Page 22060

 1     plus 3, as we had agreed with the Muslim side, plus -- 20 plus 3

 2     megawatts for the Serbian side.  But the Buca Potok capacity was

 3     23.5 mva, so we could not transfer more electricity to Buca Potok.  We

 4     could have done it had the transmission line Reljevo Vogosca been

 5     repaired and the Vogosca-Velasevic line.  When Trnovo was liberated

 6     afterwards and when we got electricity in Lukavica, had the transmission

 7     lines leading towards Dobrinja, Potokci [phoen], and Skenderija been

 8     repaired -- well, the Skenderija transmission line was heavily damaged,

 9     but these other two that went via Mojmilo through Potoka [phoen] and

10     Mojmilo could have been repaired.

11             Of course, as electricity was coming from Montenegro, it would

12     have to have been paid for, of course.  I was prepared to do that as the

13     director, and I even suggested at a meeting with UNPROFOR that after

14     getting the Lukavica transformer station up and going, to repair the

15     transmission lines two times 110 Lukavica Dobrinja and Lukavica Otoka,

16     this is one and the same transmissions line which forks off to different

17     transformer stations.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question here, Mr. Lukic.

19             You said you had agreed 20 plus 3 megawatts for the Muslim side,

20     and 20 plus 3 megawatts for the Serbian side, but you couldn't deliver

21     that because of the capacity of the line.

22             Now, how did you then -- you were short of, if I understand you

23     well, close to 23 megawatts which you couldn't deliver.  How did you

24     divide that between the -- if I could say so, the customers?  Did you cut

25     both parties down the same way, or did you -- or did you deliver a higher

Page 22061

 1     percentage to the Muslims, or a higher percentage to the Serbs?

 2             Could you tell us?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will explain that.  It is a

 4     technical matter, so I do know it.  I will try to be as simple as

 5     possible so that everyone can understand.

 6             The agreement between Serbs and Muslims at the Sarajevo airport

 7     was to provide 20 plus 3 megawatts from the Reljevo transformer station

 8     should go to Buca Potok.  We could not send more power through Buca Potok

 9     because the capacity of the transformer was 20.5.  Had the transformer

10     station had a greater capacity at Buca Potok, we could have provided more

11     electricity to Buca Potok.  It was 20.3.  So the agreement was 20

12     megawatts to go to Sarajevo under Muslim control under the condition that

13     these three megawatts should be passed on to Grbavica which was under

14     Serb control.  And 20 plus 3 megawatts from the Sarajevo 10 Reljevo

15     transformer station was sent to the Blazuj transformer station from where

16     we supplied the Serb areas with 20 megawatts, this was Hadzici, Ilijas,

17     Rajlovac, and Ilidza, and the 3 megawatts we were obliged to provide

18     through the distribution lines to the pump systems at the Konjac and

19     Bacevo sources so that the water supply could be kept operational, both

20     for the Serb and Muslim parts of Sarajevo.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I therefore do understand that where the capacity

22     was insufficient that both parties were limited in the electricity they

23     would receive and that some parts were reserved for special destinations.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 22062

 1             Well, I'm looking at the clock.  How much time would you still

 2     need?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'll try to finish as soon as possible.  Five to

 4     seven minutes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Five to seven minutes.  I leave it to you whether

 6     you want to finish now the five, seven minutes, and take the break

 7     slightly later.  Perhaps also depends on what Mr. Mladic's preference is,

 8     and your preference.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I would like to finish, if possible.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll go on for another five to seven

11     minutes and the Prosecution will then start its cross-examination after

12     the break.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Lubura, did you do everything that you could

16     to provide regular electricity, both to the Serb and the Muslim side?

17        A.   Not just I myself but all the Elektroprenos employees which I

18     headed.  We all give our utmost for the Serb and Muslim side to have

19     regular electricity supplies because then we would sleep with a clear

20     conscience.  We simply tried to provide both sides with sufficient

21     quantities of electricity, at least for the basic necessities.

22        Q.   Who would the Serbian side have to ask in order to cut

23     electricity off to the Muslims?

24        A.   As for cutting off the electricity supply, they would have had to

25     ask me, because I was the director of that particular plant.  So they

Page 22063

 1     would have to ask me to turn the electricity off, to shut it down.

 2        Q.   And were you ever asked to do that?

 3        A.   No, never.  Neither orally or in writing.  As the plant director,

 4     I state this with full responsibility.  I said the same thing in the case

 5     against President Karadzic.  Nobody ever asked that, particularly not

 6     from the highest level, but this was not the case at lower levels of

 7     authority, municipality presidents, Executive Board presidents, brigade

 8     commander, no.  My unit covered 15 municipalities if we're talking about

 9     civilian authorities.  As for the military authorities, I think that my

10     plant covered a territory of some three corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija one,

11     partly the Drina Corps, and a part -- another corps.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If everybody was in a position to

14     issue orders to me, I don't know what I would have done.  My person who

15     ordered -- who gave me orders was the director of the electrical

16     production industry of Elektroprivreda, also Mr. Skulic who was his

17     deputy --

18             THE INTERPRETER:  And could the witness please be asked to repeat

19     this last name.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were the only ones who could

21     issue such an order to me.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat what you said, and I read

23     what is on the transcript.

24             The person who gave me orders was the director of the electrical

25     production industry of Elektroprivreda, also Mr. Skulic, who was his

Page 22064

 1     department --

 2             That is where it becomes unclear.  Could you re -- could you

 3     again give your answer, starting with that the director of the electrical

 4     protection industry of Elektroprivreda gave you orders and then what you

 5     said after that.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people that I answered to and

 7     who were issuing orders to me were the general director of

 8     Elektroprivreda, of the Republika Srpska, Dr. Milorad Skoko.  The

 9     technical director of Elektroprivreda, Drago Skulic, and the main

10     director of Elektroprenos, Engineer Dragoljub Davidovic.  Only those

11     three people could issue an order to me as to what to do and how to do

12     it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then also seek clarification of one of your

14     previous answers.  I'll read to you what is on the transcript in English.

15             You were asked whether you were ever asked to cut off -- to turn

16     off the electricity, and you said:

17             "No, never.  Neither orally or in writing.  As the plant

18     director, I state this with full responsibility."

19             And then you said:

20             [As read] "I said the same thing in the Karadzic case.  Nobody

21     ever asked that, particularly not from the highest level, but this was

22     not the case at lower levels of authority, municipality presidents,

23     Executive Boards presidents, brigade commander, no."

24             Now, what did you mean when you said this was not the case at

25     lower levels.  Does that mean that the lower levels had asked you to turn

Page 22065

 1     off the electricity, or that it was done at lower levels without your

 2     knowledge?

 3             Could you please explain what you meant by those words, that it

 4     was not the case at lower levels of authority?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for the lower level of

 6     authority, they were not the ones who could issue orders to me.  They

 7     could never instruct me what to do, and I would not listen to those

 8     instructions either about cutting electricity off.  I'm only talking

 9     about high voltage cuts.  So they could not have and they did not issue

10     such instructions to me.  As the plant director, I never received any

11     oral or written orders from the highest to the lowest level of authority

12     to cut off electricity to the Muslim side.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, you said the higher

14     authorities could have asked for it but they didn't, and the lower

15     authorities could not ask for it and they never did either.  Is that well

16     understood?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, one additional question.  You said, I was

19     exclusively talking about the high voltage cuts.  Do you know anything of

20     cuts at the lower voltage lines or relay stations?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can say that I had so much work

22     at Elektroprenos.  Besides being the director of the Ilidza plant, I'm an

23     electrical engineer, so I participated in --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just asking whether you know anything of cuts at

25     a lower voltage level, why you would know or not know that is a different

Page 22066

 1     question.  But do you know anything of cuts, electricity cuts at a lower

 2     voltage lines?  Did it happen?  Did it never happen?  Don't you know?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know.  I

 4     don't know.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So it could have happened, but you do not know about

 6     it.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, one final clarification.

 9             You said, Witness, that your plant covered a territory of some

10     three corps:  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and partly the Drina Corps.

11     And what was the third?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Herzegovina Corps.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm afraid that we stole three or four

15     minutes from your time already.  If you have -- if you want to take them

16     back, then have you an opportunity now.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Judge Orie asked you about cuts on lower voltage

19     lines.  How does that work?  Could that be done manually?  Because I

20     don't know.  In theory, could somebody cut such a low voltage line or

21     could it be only a result of damage?  Could you explain?

22        A.   Yes, I can.  Lower voltage lines, that's -- that means 10 kv or

23     lower.  I don't know if we had any such around Sarajevo.  I don't think

24     so.  I believe the Muslim side received power supply only through the

25     110 kv transmission line.  It didn't work by sending lower voltage from

Page 22067

 1     the Serb territory to the Muslim territory, no.  Such things didn't

 2     happen, as far as the Sarajevo area is concerned.  Because lower voltage

 3     lines could either be cut manually or switched off at transformer

 4     stations, or simply cut the line.  That's concerning Sarajevo.

 5             But as for the Muslim part of Sarajevo --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the energy they received was

 8     through the 110 transmission line, long-distance transmission line.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I stop you there.  In the previous answer, I

10     noticed that the answer started by:

11             "I don't know if we had any such around Sarajevo.  I don't think

12     so.  I believe the Muslim side received," et cetera.

13             It is not knowing.  It is believing.  It's if we have concrete

14     information, we'd like to hear it.  But to hear a long story on the basis

15     of what the witness says what he believes or -- and I take it that will

16     be possible to provide such information.

17             Nevertheless, the witness explained already quite a bit about

18     what could be done in a situation of which we do not know whether it

19     existed or not.

20             Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   I don't know if I understand differently what you just said.  Did

23     you mean you don't know or you are not aware that such a method of

24     transmission existed?

25        A.   Between the Muslim and Serb part of Sarajevo?

Page 22068

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   The only supply was through the 110 kv.  Apart from the part of

 3     Grbavica which was supplied from the Muslim side through the 10 kv

 4     network.  That's what we sent through the lower voltage line to

 5     Buca Potok.

 6        Q.   Let's try to finish within a minute or two.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 10788 is the document we need.

 8        Q.   We see here a decision which is not directly related to

 9     electrical energy but to water.  We see the war committee of the Serbian

10     municipality of Ilidza adopted a decision on the 4th of August, 1992, to

11     suspend water supply to Ilidza in the city of Sarajevo from Bacevo until

12     further notice and the reasons are stated below.  That means constant

13     shelling and damage to the water supply lines and also that the well had

14     been bombed.

15             My question is:  The water supply network in Sarajevo and its

16     feed, did they depend on electricity?

17        A.   I was born in Sarajevo, Mr. Lukic, and I know these things well.

18     As for the main supply of the city of Sarajevo, it came from the sources

19     of Bacevo and Konaci.  However, the city of Sarajevo had two other major

20     sources:  Tilova and Bistrica, just below Mount Jahorina which went down

21     to the old town where we had a small hydropower plant and the Serb side

22     never cut off water from there.

23             However, these two major sources, Bacevo and Konaci, the water

24     comes from wells.  Each well has its own pump and its own transformer

25     station, 10/.4 kilovolts, and all these pumps pump out the water from the

Page 22069

 1     soil, send it to main reservoirs, and from these reservoirs in Bacevo and

 2     Konaci the water goes to the water supply at Mojmilo hill.

 3             According to the Muslim-Serb deal from the transformer station of

 4     Blazuj in Sarajevo 1, we provided up to 10 megawatts of electricity for

 5     the pumps, the water-pumps, at Bacevo and Konaci, and my dispatchers

 6     observed this deal.  They sent the electricity.  But what happened over

 7     there when there was shelling or when the pump broke down or when the

 8     transformer station broke down, that was out of my power.

 9        Q.   One final question.  Did you know if the Muslim forces shelled

10     Bacevo?

11        A.   Mr. Lukic, there was frequent shelling.  The hospital was

12     shelled.  Even my transformer station was shelled by Jukaprazina.  It was

13     the longest period for Sarajevo without electricity because Jukaprazina's

14     units shelled the transformer station Sarajevo 1 on the 12th of

15     December and they damaged all my transformers, the oil leaked out.  I was

16     not unable [as interpreted] to repair more than one.  And up to the 29th

17     of January, 1993, neither the Muslim nor the Serb side had electricity,

18     and thereby they didn't even have water because the units of Jukaprazina

19     had shelled the transformer station.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So simple answer is, yes, it happened.  Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC:  This was my last question.  I just wanted to ask for

22     this document to be admitted.

23             MR. JEREMY:  No objection, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10788 receives number D506,

Page 22070

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D506 is admitted.

 3             We take a break.

 4             Witness, you'll be escorted out of the courtroom, and we'd like

 5     to see you back in 20 minutes.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes past 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start the cross-examination, I will

11     deliver a statement.  The text which is distributed to the booths is, in

12     the beginning and at the end, slightly differs from the statement I will

13     make.

14             The Chamber will now deliver a statement in response to the

15     Prosecution's proposal to tender transcript of prior cross-examination of

16     witnesses as part of its cross-examination in this case.  The statement

17     does also gives the reasons why the Chamber decided to deny the

18     application for tendering prior testimony and associated exhibits for

19     Witness Lubura.

20             On the 28th of April of this year, and the 2nd, the 12th, and the

21     19th of May, the Prosecution proposed that it be allowed to tender

22     portions of a witness's previous cross-examination in the Karadzic case

23     in order to save court time.  The Prosecution submits that such prior

24     testimony should be admitted under Rule 92 bis or, in the alternative,

25     Rule 89(C) and (F) of the Rules.  The Prosecution cited an

Page 22071

 1     Appeals Chamber decision in the Aleksovski case of the 16th of

 2     February 1999 in support of its proposal.  All this can be found in

 3     Prosecution filings of the 28th of April, the 2nd of May, and at

 4     transcript pages 21020 up to and including 21022 and 21037 up to and

 5     including 21044.

 6             The Defence responded on the 19th and the 26th of May of this

 7     year, objecting to the proposal.  The Defence submits that the practice

 8     employed during the Prosecution's case should be followed; namely, that

 9     prior cross-examination is put to the witness and that confirmation of

10     such testimony is then sought.  The Defence submits that changing this

11     practice now would violate the principle of equality of arms between the

12     parties.  The Defence also submits that Mr. Karadzic is self-respected

13     and, as such, without the benefit of trained counsel, may not have raised

14     necessary objections to certain questions of the Prosecution.  Lastly,

15     the Defence points to a decision of the Karadzic Trial Chamber which

16     states that the cross-examining party should pose any questions to the

17     witness directly, instead of tendering prior testimony through

18     Rule 92 ter.

19             At the outset, the Chamber notes that pending its decision on the

20     matter, the Prosecution to date has adopted the approach of confronting

21     witnesses with their previous cross-examination and seeking confirmation

22     or clarification.  While this approach may result in slightly longer

23     cross-examinations, in the view of the Chamber it increases the clarity

24     of the presentation of evidence by directly confronting the witness, thus

25     also making it easier for the Chamber to pose additional questions and

Page 22072

 1     determine a witness's credibility.

 2             Under these circumstances, it is the Chamber's strong preference

 3     that the Prosecution continue this practice.

 4             For Witness Lubura, the Prosecution made an application to tender

 5     prior testimony and associated exhibits.  Considering the Chamber's

 6     strong preference for receiving the Prosecution's cross-examination

 7     orally, the Chamber denies this application.

 8             Finally, the Prosecution submits that court time may be saved by

 9     tendering maps marked by the witness in a prior case together with the

10     examination of that map.  The Chamber is not convinced that such

11     tendering would enhance the clarity of the evidence of a witness.  In

12     addition, re-marking of a map would not be the only other way to get this

13     evidence before the Chamber.  For example, the Prosecution could tender

14     the previously marked map and seek confirmation from the witness in

15     relation to the markings.

16             This concludes the Chamber's statement on this matter.

17             Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

18             Mr. Lukic, the -- the confusion about how to spell the name of

19     the witness would have been avoided if you would, as is usually done,

20     would have put as the first question to the witness to tell us his name

21     and his date of birth.  That would have avoided any confusion.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lubura, you will now be cross-examined by

25     Mr. Jeremy.  You find him to your right.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the

Page 22073

 1     Prosecution.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

 5        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Lubura.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   In your direct examination you discussed a couple of maps, in

 8     particular P503.  This is a map of the electricity grid in Bosnia.  I'd

 9     like to start by showing you another map, also the electricity grid in

10     Bosnia, which I hope is a little more legible than P503.  Excuse me,

11     D503.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 30735.  And,

13     Your Honours, I have colour copies of this map in A3, which I'll -- I

14     would ask the Court Officer to provide to you in case it's helpful.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If they exist already then there's no reason

16     not to look at them.

17        Q.   Witness, as this is being brought to our screen, I can tell you

18     that it's a map of the BiH power system taken from the web site of the

19     Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE, and it's

20     a map that's dated 13th of September 2010.  Now this is a map that was

21     presented to you during your cross-examination in the Karadzic case.  Do

22     you recall that?

23        A.   It's the same map.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In your --

25        A.   Just a moment.

Page 22074

 1        Q.   Are you ready for me to proceed?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   In your testimony in that case, you confirmed that with the

 4     exception of the Bosanski Petrovac-Kljuic transmission line, this map

 5     reflects the same electrical grid in Bosnia that was in place between

 6     1992 and 1995; correct?

 7        A.   There are minor differences.  I'll explain.  Here you have a long

 8     distance transmission line of 400 kv, thermal power station Ugljevik,

 9     Sremska Mitrovica, that was made in 2003 through the Power 3 European

10     Union -- European bank loan.  Also, you have here a long transmission

11     line of 220 kv, Visegrad, going to Uzicka Pozega.  That transmission line

12     did not exist before the war.  And here you have a 110 kv long

13     transmission line Visegrad-Rudo-Modric.  There used to be a transmission

14     line up to Rudo of 110, but during the war we made a long transmission

15     line 110 of about 8.5 kilometres in order to be able to start the

16     hydropower plant Visegrad.  So this map is identical to the one shown

17     from -- shown in 1990 by YUTEL.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On this map we see from Visegrad the green 220

19     kilovolt line going east into Serbia; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, that was made in 1998, I think.  That means after the war.

21        Q.   And we also see a green 220 kilovolt line going just below Foca

22     into Montenegro; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I'll explain.

24        Q.   Witness, I just would like to confirm that it is in fact the 220

25     kilovolt line going into Serbia.  I don't need a further explanation at

Page 22075

 1     this stage.

 2        A.   Yes, this is 220 kv long transmission line made before the war

 3     between the hydropower plant Piva.  It reaches Foca, that is Buk Bijele,

 4     where a hydropower plant was to be built.  And then it is connected to a

 5     400 kv long transmission line going towards Sarajevo --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, please carefully listen to the questions,

 7     and I assume that could you tell us for hours further explanations on

 8     lines and their history.  But, first, answer the question and limit it to

 9     that.

10             Mr. Jeremy, page 34, line 12.  That is 220 kilovolt, I take it.

11     And you said going into Montenegro, whereas later you said going into

12     Serbia.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I misspoke.  I meant to say

14     Montenegro the second time.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The second time you intended to say Montenegro as

16     well.

17             Please proceed.  And that's the line below -- south of Foca,

18     whereas, the newer line near Visegrad was the one which now goes into

19     Serbia.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

22             Your Honours, I tender that map as the next Prosecution exhibit.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Has the witness been provided with a hard copy?

25     It's the same as what he sees on his screen.  He has commented on it.

Page 22076

 1     But I don't know whether you want to further use it?

 2             MR. JEREMY:  I don't intend to further use it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we leave it as it is.  The witness has given

 4     his comments.

 5             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30735 receives number P6550,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P6550 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. JEREMY:

11        Q.   Mr. Lubura, today you have confirmed that electricity had to pass

12     through Serb-held territory in order to reach Bosnian-held territory in

13     Sarajevo; correct?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   And you confirmed in your sworn testimony in the Karadzic case

16     that it was possible for the Bosnian Serbs to prevent the delivery of

17     electricity to Bosnian Muslim-held territory in Sarajevo; right?

18        A.   They were able to get it, yes -- they were able to prevent it,

19     yes.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

22        Q.   Witness, I'd like to now discuss your responsibilities as

23     director of the Elektroprenos plant in Ilidza.  Now, you commenced this

24     role in August 1992; correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 22077

 1        Q.   And you ended your duties as director there in mid-May 1995; is

 2     that correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   And you were responsible for the administration and the

 5     maintenance of substations and transmission lines in Serb-controlled

 6     territory in the Sarajevo area; correct?

 7        A.   Not only Sarajevo, but also further afield.  The plant that I

 8     managed covered a much larger territory.  There were 15, 110, and 400 kv

 9     transformer stations.  And it was a much larger region.

10             As the chief engineer, I worked under the instructions of the

11     general director, and in the Posavina valley through the corridor we

12     started the hydropower plant Ugljevik to Zvornik.  So my main activity

13     together with the director was the plant in Ilidza that covered 15 Serb

14     municipalities, plus the extra orders of the general manager to me as an

15     electrical engineer to restore -- in fact, establish the electrical grid

16     to supply Krajina --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

18             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] -- the Doboj region and --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the simple answer to the question therefore

20     is:  Yes, although my area of responsibility was wider than just

21     Sarajevo.  That would have been the short answer without all the details.

22             Mr. Jeremy, it's also for you to -- unless you were specifically

23     focusing on these details which the witness then gave spontaneously.  But

24     I doubt [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             MR. JEREMY:  My question had a narrow focus, Your Honour.

Page 22078

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Try to keep in control.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. JEREMY:

 3        Q.   Witness, when repairs were required within the Sarajevo area

 4     within the territory in which you operated, it was your company that sent

 5     the technicians to carry out that work.  That's right, isn't it?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And sometimes those repairs would be carried alongside UNPROFOR,

 8     together with technicians from the Bosnian Muslim side; yes?

 9        A.   That's right.  When there were breakdowns on supply lines, joint

10     teams would go out to deal with it with the presence of the UNPROFOR.

11        Q.   Thank you.  So your role was to use your technical knowledge to

12     carry out necessary repairs; yes?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, in order for those repairs to be carried out on the

15     confrontation line, approval of access for technical teams was required

16     by the Bosnian Serb army and the ABiH; correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18        Q.   And that approval from the warring parties was obtained not by

19     you but by UNPROFOR; correct?

20        A.   UNPROFOR would contact the warring parties; the Serb and the

21     Muslim side.  Once they have obtained approval, a guarantee that there

22     would be no combat in the areas of repairs, we would send joint teams to

23     carry out those repairs.

24        Q.   Now, in paragraph 8 of your new statement for the Mladic case --

25     in fact, let's provide you with a hard copy of that.

Page 22079

 1             MR. JEREMY:  If the usher could please assist.  And also provide

 2     a copy of the statement from the Karadzic, please, too.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, before we continue, is it clear to you

 4     which of the copies is your statement in the Karadzic case and which was

 5     the newly produced statement for this case?  Is that clear to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the supplemental part.  The

 7     basic, original statement is the one I provided in the Karadzic case.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see D501.  That's the statement, the

10     new statement, for this case.  The supplemental statement.

11        Q.   Mr. Lubura, I'd like you to take a look at paragraph 8 of your

12     new statement.  There, you refer to failures to electricity transmission

13     systems and you state:  "Failures were operational or mechanical and were

14     mostly caused by war operations."  Mr. Lubura, this leaves open the

15     possibility for damaged lines to stay damaged for long periods of time

16     due to, for example, denial of access to repairs, doesn't it?

17        A.   When there were mechanical repairs needed due to war operations,

18     such repairs took longer to be fixed, as I stated in my first statement.

19     Once we have established there was a breakdown, which would usually

20     come -- appear between the separation lines, we would turn to the liaison

21     officer and the service for co-operation with UNPROFOR at Lukavica in the

22     SRK.  We would then notify UNPROFOR and UNPROFOR would in turn ask

23     approval by both sides which, once obtained, would enable a joint team to

24     go in the field and fix it.  It could take anywhere between five and

25     eight days.

Page 22080

 1        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 2        A.   I can't recall off the cuff how many such repairs were required

 3     because it was 20 years ago.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, I'm going to stop you here because

 5     you're repeating yourself.  The question was whether this also still

 6     leaves open the possibility that, because access was denied, that, for

 7     that reason, the transmission system was not functioning for a longer

 8     period of time.  Did that happen?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I don't know how the

10     warring parties reacted to UNPROFOR's requests for us to go out in the

11     field.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness, did it happen that no access was given,

13     and for -- that for that reason the transmission system on that part was

14     not functioning for a longer period of time?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that and I can't

16     confirm it.  Such malfunctions were usually dealt with between five and

17     eight days at the most, but I don't know what was the main cause of it.

18     I don't know whether one of the sides prevented such repairs.  I really

19     can't confirm that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

21             MR. JEREMY:

22        Q.   Witness, is it your evidence that you were not aware that the

23     Bosnian Serb side denied access to repair lines, to lines that

24     required -- that needed to be repaired.  Is that your evidence?

25        A.   No.  Yes, I don't know.  I don't know.

Page 22081

 1        Q.   I'd like to show you a document, 65 ter 30736.

 2             And while it's being brought up on the screen, Mr. Lubura, I can

 3     tell you it's a report for July 1993 from the UNPROFOR sector engineer

 4     for Sarajevo.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to page 4 in e-court.

 6        Q.   And Mr. Lubura we see that this document is signed by

 7     Lieutenant-Colonel M. Maufrais, sector engineer.

 8             Now, in paragraph 9 of your supplemental statement, D501, you

 9     refer to a French UNPROFOR battalion that assisted in resolving technical

10     issues relating to power supply.  And you refer to a Major Mofrez,

11     M-o-f-r-e-z.  Is this the same person as this Colonel Maufrais we see

12     here?

13        A.   I know Mr. Maufrais excellently.  He was a major at first and

14     later probably became a lieutenant-colonel.  We co-operated excellently.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16        A.   At first he was a major and then later --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I think by your answer, unless there's any

18     reason to belive there were two Lieutenant-Colonels Maufrais moving

19     around that it is the same.

20             Please proceed.

21             You said you worked together with him perfectly.

22             MR. JEREMY:  If we could go to page 1 of this document, please.

23        Q.   Now, Witness, I -- I know that you understand English, so ...

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. JEREMY:  But the B/C/S translation has just been uploaded and

Page 22082

 1     it is available.  Perhaps we can look at them side by side.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Lubura, we see the subheading: "Utility Situation."  It

 3     states:

 4             "Getting worse and worse since the beginning of the war, the

 5     utilities situation in July for Sarajevo area has been the most critical.

 6     Sarajevo was never so strongly besieged."

 7             Two paragraphs down we see it says:

 8             "It is to notice that the Serbian controlled area was fully fed

 9     with water and almost fully fed with electricity."

10             I would also like do draw your attention to paragraph 11 at the

11     bottom of the page, subheading:  "Electricity."  It states:

12             [As read] "Electricity is and will remain the key of all the

13     utilities problems inside the sector.  All the repairs are connected

14     with.  Serbs denied any access to the repair location on the line which

15     is supplying the town (Reljevo Vogosca)."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy you read "repairs."  It reads "all the

17     others are connected," the others apparently referring to other problems.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you for that clarification, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Lubura, given your close relationship, your working

20     relationship with the author of this document, is this something that you

21     were aware of at the time, this denial of access to the repair locations

22     that Colonel Maufrais is talking about here in this report?

23        A.   Well, if you look at paragraph 11, "Electricity," one can read

24     that the Serbs denied access to a number of locations such as Reljevo and

25     Vogosca.  The transmission line between Reljevo and Vogosca could supply

Page 22083

 1     Vogosca and then further afield to Velesici.  However, the main power of

 2     electricity for the Muslim part of Sarajevo went through the transmission

 3     line Reljevo and Buca Potok; in other words, the city of Sarajevo did

 4     have electricity at the time through Reljevo-Buca Potok transmission

 5     line.

 6             Reljevo-Vogosca line is where there was fierce combat at Zuc, and

 7     of course we tried to fix it.  I don't know whether it was precisely in

 8     the month Mr. Maufrais drafted this report, but the city of Sarajevo did

 9     receive electricity through the Reljevo-Buca Potok transaction line.

10     This transmission line Mr. Maufrais is referring to between Reljevo and

11     Vogosca had to do with supplying the Vogosca transformer station, and via

12     Vogosca that electricity could have been carried onto Velesici, and then

13     the city of Sarajevo would have more electricity.

14        Q.   Mr. Lubura --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your question was not answered, Mr. Jeremy.

16             MR. JEREMY:

17        Q.   Mr. Lubura, were you aware in July 1993 that the Serbs were

18     denying access to the repair location on the line which is supplying the

19     town Reljevo-Vogosca?

20        A.   I have explained to you --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that the city of Sarajevo --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- received electricity --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

Page 22084

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- from a different --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- direction.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question is not whether Sarajevo

 5     received electricity.  The question is whether you were aware that the

 6     Serbs denied access for repairs.  That's the question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it has to do with a different

 8     transmission line between Reljevo and Vogosca.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall that --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there was combat there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, were you aware that the Serbs denied access

14     on the line indicated for repairs?  That's the simple question.  If you

15     were aware, tell us; if you were not aware, tell us as well.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't aware.  I wasn't aware.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

18             MR. JEREMY:  I tendered that document as the next Prosecution

19     exhibit.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30736 receives number P6551,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. JEREMY:

25        Q.   Mr. Lubura, you don't know that the Serb side made access for

Page 22085

 1     repair teams in Sarajevo conditional on political concessions by the

 2     Bosnian Muslim side, do you?

 3        A.   I don't know about that.

 4        Q.   And do you know -- you also don't know whether the Serb side made

 5     access for repair teams in Sarajevo conditional on military concessions

 6     by the Bosnian Muslim side, do you?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Witness, during the war the Sokolac-Vogosca line was not

 9     repaired; is that correct?

10        A.   The Sokolac-Vogosca transmission line was not repaired near

11     Vogosca in the area of Poljine village because the Muslim side never

12     allowed us to do so.  On the contrary, when we set out to repair that

13     part of the transmission line, fire was opened from the Muslim side.  The

14     reason why they didn't allow us to fix it was to prevent supply of

15     electricity to the Pretis and TAS companies.

16        Q.   Now, as a consequence of this failure to repair the line, the

17     Bosnian Serbs connected a transmission line Poljine-Pale in order to get

18     electricity from Visegrad to Vogosca.  That's right, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.  And I did that.

20        Q.   And this way you were able to get power to the Pretis factory;

21     that's correct, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes.  I installed eight MVAs of transformer power.  I used it to

23     feed electricity to Vogosca, parts of Ilijas, and the Pretis and TAS

24     factories.  That is correct.

25        Q.   In paragraph 14 of your supplemental statement, which if we could

Page 22086

 1     please take a look at D501, there you refer to assistance that were

 2     provided with by the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and you refer to their

 3     assistance with transporting electrical equipment and in particular high

 4     power transformers.  I'd like to show you a document in connection with

 5     this.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 30747.  This is a

 7     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps document from Dragomir Milosevic to the VRS

 8     Main Staff dated 30 September 1993.  Could we take a look at page 2 of

 9     this document, please.

10        Q.   Witness, in the third paragraph down, we see that it states:

11             "Given that we need a power supply, it is our preventative

12     interest to get a power supply ring installed in Republika Srpska and

13     thereby obtain sufficient electricity, primarily for military needs but

14     also for other consumers in Grbavica."

15             Mr. Lubura, is this the co-ordination with the Sarajevo-Romanija

16     Corps that you are referring to in that paragraph in your new statement?

17        A.   Yes, one of them.  I asked that a 40-tonne transformer station be

18     moved from Reljevo to Lukavica in order to provide quality electricity to

19     Miljevici, Kasindol, Grbavica, and Vrace because before the war they

20     received electricity through 35 kv transmission lines from Sarajevo 18.

21     Those were cut off.  And when the Serb side took Trnovo, I fixed the

22     400 kv transmission line from Trnovo, thus bringing in electricity from

23     Montenegro to Lukavica.  But there was no distribution voltage that would

24     be necessary to distribute it, so I had to insert the transformer point.

25             There was a typo here, and it doesn't concern kilowatts but

Page 22087

 1     kilovolts.

 2             And I asked the SRK command to assist with the transport of the

 3     transformer point via some forested area to Lukavica.  I managed to do so

 4     and I managed to feed electricity to the south-eastern of

 5     Sarajevsko Polje which was under Serb control.

 6        Q.   Well, it's in paragraph 14 of your new statement, D501, referring

 7     to your co-ordination with the VRS, you then state:

 8             "All this in order to provide better supply for both parts of

 9     Sarajevo."

10             Now this document shows that you were co-ordinating with the SRK

11     to provide better power supply to the VRS and the Serb-controlled areas

12     of Sarajevo; correct?

13        A.   Well, of course, I wanted to feed electricity to the Serb side

14     first, being Serbian myself.  But at meetings at the airport with the

15     Muslim side, I suggested that I should fix the two times 110 transmission

16     line between Lukavica and Otoka and Nedzarici to Dobrinja so that they

17     too would receive some of electricity.  They would receive more

18     electricity from Lukavica which came from the source in Montenegro.

19             I believe you have that document, and you can see there that we

20     discussed the fixing of that transmission line so that the Muslim side,

21     too, would receive more electricity from Lukavica.  However, it did not

22     materialise throughout the war, or at least while I managed the plant.

23        Q.   On the basis of this document, you would agree with me, yes, that

24     it shows that it's concerned with power supply to the VRS for military

25     needs and for consumers in Grbavica; correct?

Page 22088

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the document says, Mr. Jeremy, so

 2     there's no -- whether the witness agrees or not.  The witness has

 3     explained to us that at this moment in relation to this document that may

 4     be true but that was not his exclusive focus.  His focus was broader and

 5     was also, and gave examples of that, to provide the Muslim side with

 6     electricity as well.  So there's no need, I think, to ask the witness to

 7     confirm what the document says.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I tender that document as

10     the next Prosecution exhibit.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30747 receives number P6552,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Can we please see the witness's statement from the

16     Karadzic case, D500.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Madam Registrar, could you

18     please repeat the number.  It's not appearing on the screen.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30747 receives number P6552,

20     Your Honours.

21             MR. JEREMY:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Lubura, I'd like you to take a look at paragraph 13 of

23     that statement, please.

24             There you say that the Serbs were prepared to transmit energy to

25     the substations in Dobrinja, Otoka, and Skenderija.  I think you

Page 22089

 1     mentioned this again in your direct examination this morning.  You say

 2     that the Muslims showed no interest in this proposal; correct?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   I'd like to show you a document in connection with this.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  That's 65 ter 30740.

 6        Q.   Now, if we take a look at the first page and it lists -- under

 7     list of delegates, we see Bosnian Serb delegation, 7 c, Veljko Lubura.

 8     That's you; correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And if we can go to page 2, please, and halfway down we see the

11     subheading:  "Situation of Repairs."  In 2.4 we see a reference to:

12             "LCL Ricquet talked about problems between BSA and UNPROFOR.  He

13     said that Serbian side obstructs the works by shooting at the teams.  Are

14     the works going to be performed or should the teams withdrawn?  The

15     repairs on electric power networks are also political problems [sic].

16     These repairs are being performed on the BH side, but not on the Bosnian

17     Serb side."

18             MR. JEREMY:  And if we can just go forward, please, to page 4.

19        Q.   And we see 4.3 b, the transmission lines

20     Jablanica-Hadzici-Blazuj-Blazuj Famos-Lukavica, and

21     Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici were agreed to be top priority.

22             Mr. Lubura, contrary to what you say in paragraph 13 of your

23     statement about the Muslims showing no interest in the proposal to repair

24     the Lukavica-Otoka transmission line, this document shows that in fact

25     both sides agreed that it would be a top priority; correct?

Page 22090

 1        A.   I remember this meeting well, my memory serves me well.  This was

 2     my suggestion.  I proposed also that the transmission line between

 3     Jablanica, Hadzici and Blazuj be repaired.  It was heavily damaged.  This

 4     was my proposal.  As for why it was never implemented on my part and on

 5     behalf of Elektroprenos, which I headed, we were prepared to do this, but

 6     we would need to ask the gentlemen on the Muslim side why the repairs

 7     were never carried out.  During the war this transmission line was never

 8     repaired.  Perhaps they were afraid.  I don't know what they were afraid

 9     of.  But as far as I'm concerned, I was prepared.

10             I know that at that time they were working on a transmission line

11     through Igman and then they brought the cables down.  Perhaps that's why

12     they didn't do it.  But I know that they placed a transformer station in

13     the village of Zovik.  They went by air on the other side of Igman and

14     then they dropped the cables down on this side that looks on Sarajevo.

15     Electricity had to be paid for, and the electricity that came to Lukavica

16     was coming from Montenegro, so that had to be paid for.  I mean, I don't

17     know.

18             This is what I proposed at the meeting.  As the director of

19     Prenos, on my side there was no obstruction to fix this.  Yes, it was a

20     difficult job, the transmission line was heavily damaged, but it could

21     have been repaired.

22        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd tender that document as the next

24     Prosecution exhibit.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 22091

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30740 receives number P6553,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             Witness, you gave a lot of possible reasons and you said perhaps

 5     this or perhaps that's why they didn't do that.  In the meeting

 6     apparently the -- Mr. Ricquet says, We have problems because the Serbs

 7     are shooting when a team intends to repair the line.

 8             Now, you come up with a lot of explanations of what possibly may

 9     have been the case, but this was reported by someone on the spot.  What's

10     your comment on that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that -- I

12     don't know whether Mr. Ricquet was being fair here or not.  I wasn't on

13     the lines each time.  I don't know who opened fire.  When I was there and

14     when fire was opened, I can confirm this before this Trial Chamber, but I

15     think that it states here in this paper that both sides were shooting.  I

16     know that they were shooting when the attempt was made to repair the

17     Vogosca-Velesici transmission line, but I state responsibly that as far

18     as the Sokolac-Vogosca transmission line was concerned, the Serb side

19     never opened fire because it was on their territory.  It was the Muslim

20     side that opened fire there because they would not permit electricity to

21     be transmitted to Vogosca.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not what Mr. Ricquet says, but he

23     apparently has another observation.

24             Please proceed, Mr. -- no, before I encourage you to proceed,

25     Mr. Jeremy, I would rather look at the clock and let's take a break.

Page 22092

 1             How far -- could we first ask the witness to be escorted out of

 2     the courtroom.

 3             We'll take a break, and we'll see you back in 20 minutes.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Where are we in terms of time, Mr. Jeremy and

 6     Mr. Lukic?

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I would expect to conclude in the next

 8     session.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then there would be at least some time

10     left for you, Mr. Lukic.  If we take another break, it would still be

11     another 25 minutes left.

12             We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 30 minutes past 12.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

16     in the courtroom, I must say I appreciate highly that our transcriber may

17     have hidden a mistake I made.  I think I said that we'll resume 20

18     minutes past 12.00, which was obviously a mistake because it would have

19     left us only a break of ten minutes.  For all those who appeared early, I

20     apologise, and whenever I can give you ten minutes somewhere for whatever

21     reason - ten minutes' more sunshine, or ten minutes' more something

22     else - please do not hesitate to apply for it.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

Page 22093

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Mr. Lubura, let's stay on the topic of meetings between the

 3     Bosnian Serb side, the Bosnian Muslim side, and UNPROFOR.  Now, in

 4     paragraph 10 of your supplemental statement, D501 --

 5             MR. JEREMY:  And could we call it onto our screens, please.

 6        Q.   While it's coming up, Mr. Lubura, I'll paraphrase that

 7     paragraph 10.  You refer to -- to the meetings that I've just made

 8     reference to.  You say the subject of those meetings was to put in order

 9     lines that were not operational.  You said representatives of the Muslim

10     side "simply never responded to what was agreed at these meetings."  In

11     connection with this statement in your witness statement, I would like to

12     refer you to another document, and that's 65 ter 30731.

13             And while that's coming to our screens, Mr. Lubura, I'll tell

14     that you these are minutes from a meeting held at the airport on the 3rd

15     of February 1995.

16             We see of those persons present, at the top of the page a

17     Mr. Jacques Perreaux.  Now you refer to a person of the name Pero,

18     P-e-r-o, in paragraph 9 of your statement.  This is the same person,

19     correct?

20        A.   Correct.  Jacques Perreaux.  It's French so probably they didn't

21     know how to transcribe it correctly.  But yes, Jacques Perreaux,

22     Lieutenant-Colonel Jacques Perreaux.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And in the BH delegation we see a reference to

24     Dubravka, Nikolic.  You refer to him in paragraph 13 of your statement;

25     correct?

Page 22094

 1        A.   Yes, that is Mrs. Dubravka Nikolic.  She was the director for

 2     development at the Elektroprivreda of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  This was

 3     the Muslim Elektroprivreda, electrical utility company.

 4        Q.   I'll shortly take you to another page on this document, but out

 5     of fairness I'll note that you're not present at this meeting, or at

 6     least the minutes indicate that you were not present; correct?

 7        A.   Correct, I was not present.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to page 3 in this document, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lubura, I'd like to focus your attention on the subheading:

10     "Repair Missions in Sarajevo Area."  You see "Velesici-Kosevo."

11             "The repair has not been performed yet.  The representative of

12     Sector Sarajevo said that BH side had accepted to have a mixed team for

13     the repair and that all necessary authorisations had been obtained, but a

14     local BS commander had not allowed the team to do the repair on 22nd of

15     February, 1995."

16             Mr. Lubura, you would agree, would you not, that contrary to

17     paragraph 10 of your statement, this document states that the Muslim side

18     had responded to what had been agreed at a previous meeting, but in this

19     case the Bosnian Serb side, and in fact a commander of the Bosnian Serb

20     military, had obstructed the repair; correct?

21        A.   The Velesici-Kosevo transmission line does not pass through the

22     territory controlled by Bosnian Serbs.  So this is not clear to me.  The

23     Kosevo-Velesici transmission line is on the Muslim side, 100 per cent.

24     So it's not clear to me how they could have written this and how they

25     could have agreed with it.

Page 22095

 1             You can see from the maps that we looked at earlier that the

 2     Velesici-Kosevo transmission line passes through practically the centre

 3     of town, and I think the Serbian army wasn't even able to shoot at that

 4     section of the power transmission line.  It's really not clear to me how

 5     they could have said something like that.  I don't know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, you introduced the document as dating

 7     from the 3rd of February.  I may -- I assume that you wanted to say 23rd

 8     of February.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.  Let me just double-check that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, the document in this paragraph talks

11     about the 22nd so that couldn't be discussed on the 3rd.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender that document as

14     the next Prosecution exhibit.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30731 receives number P6554,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             MR. JEREMY:

20        Q.   Mr. Lubura, today you've explained that your responsibilities

21     extended beyond the Sarajevo area.  Now, it is true, isn't it, that the

22     Bosnian Serbs made power, electrical power, to Sarajevo conditional on

23     power to Serb territory elsewhere; correct?

24        A.   Probably so.  I wasn't at this meeting.  However, the meeting

25     which was attended by representatives from Banja Luka I know because I

Page 22096

 1     was a member of the Elektroprivreda collegium, the Elektroprivreda of

 2     Republika Srpska, we had meetings at least twice and we discussed the

 3     supply problems of the entire Republika Srpska.  I know that the whole of

 4     Bosnian Krajina and the Banja Luka region, the Doboj region, did not have

 5     enough electricity.  Semberija, including Bijeljina, did not have

 6     electricity.  They just had a part of their electrical supplies coming

 7     from Serbia through the Ljesnica-Bijeljina 35 kv route but it was

 8     insufficient, and naturally the Serbs were also asking to have

 9     electricity for all of their population throughout the whole territory,

10     which is normal.  The sources were mostly on the Muslim side.

11        Q.   In connection with that answer I'd like to show you a document,

12     65 ter 3037 [sic].  And --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number.

14             MR. JEREMY:  Yes.  65 ter 30737.  30737.

15        Q.   Mr. Lubura, this is a code cable from UNPROFOR Zagreb to UN

16     headquarters.  It's entitled:  "Briefing Requested by Security Council."

17     It's dated the 27th of October 1994.  Now, in paragraph 1 b, we read:

18             [As read] "Electricity (see attachment) repairs have begun on the

19     Sarajevo network following Karadzic's agreements to clear the access of

20     repair teams, provided UNPROFOR subsequently also address the problem of

21     the eastern and northern Bosnian power lines, of particular interest to

22     the Serb civilian populations ..."

23             Were you aware of this agreement by President Karadzic,

24     Mr. Lubura?

25        A.   No, I wasn't.

Page 22097

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I would tender that document as the

 2     next Prosecution exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar --

 4             Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I rarely object if the document is

 6     official document, but I don't think that this witness is good to

 7     introduce having in mind his answer.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- Mr. Jeremy tendered it without saying whether

 9     he tendered it as an exhibit related to this witness or whether he wanted

10     to tender it from the bar table because I think that exceptionally if a

11     document is directly linked to the evidence of a witness, although the

12     witness may not have knowledge of that document, and when the document is

13     relevant and may have probative value, that it can be tendered under

14     those circumstances.  Would you also object against it be tendered from

15     the bar table?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Then I will withdraw my objection.  I will leave it

17     to Your Honours whether you accept it or not.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second please.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30737 receives number P6555,

25     Your Honours.

Page 22098

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 2             You wanted to say something, Witness.  Please.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I were to read the whole

 4     document, I would probably have my own comments, but because there isn't

 5     enough time -- I mean, I'm sure I would have some comments of mine, and I

 6     could clarify some questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any factual knowledge, please tell us

 8     what it is.  If not, we'll proceed.

 9             Mr. Jeremy.

10             MR. JEREMY:

11        Q.   Mr. Lubura, today during your direct examination, you've

12     confirmed that you had an agreement with the Bosnian Muslim side that

13     along the Reljevo-Buca Potok transmission line, 20 megawatts of

14     electricity would be provided to Buca Potok, and 3 megawatts would be

15     provided onto Grbavica.  That's correct, isn't it?

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   And in your Karadzic testimony and again today, you have stated

18     that the only transmission line that was functioning, taking electricity

19     to the centre of Sarajevo was this Reljevo-Buca Potok transmission line;

20     correct?

21        A.   Exactly, yes.

22        Q.   Now, at meetings that you attended, you personally stated that

23     power to Buca Potok may be switched off if Grbavica is not given enough

24     power; correct?

25        A.   Yes, correct.

Page 22099

 1        Q.   In connection with that I'd like to show you a document,

 2     65 ter 30732.  And these are minutes of a meeting between representatives

 3     of UNPROFOR, ABiH, and the VRS regarding repair of infrastructure in the

 4     Sarajevo area dated 10th of February, 1993.

 5             Mr. Lubura, we see a -- a reference to names that are mentioned

 6     in your new witness statement, P501.  We see a reference to

 7     Major Maufrais, we see a reference a Durmic, in paragraph 11 of your

 8     statement refers to Irfan Durmic.  This is the same person; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.  The director of Elektroprenos in Sarajevo, Irfan Durmic.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And I see a reference to Lubura.  That's you,

11     correct.

12        A.   Yes, correct.

13        Q.   Do you recall this meeting on the 10th of February, 1993?

14        A.   Well, there were lots of meetings.  I don't remember it

15     precisely.  Now I'm reading it trying to just remember what the agenda of

16     that meeting was.  We had many meetings, so after 20 years I cannot

17     remember each individual one.

18        Q.   I understand.  And take a moment to familiarise yourself with the

19     document, if you need it.

20             I'd like to ask you a specific question on the document on

21     page 3.

22             MR. JEREMY:  If we could go to page 3, please.

23        Q.   And there, the minutes suggest that you made the following

24     comment:

25             "I think that Buca Potok may be switched off if Grbavica does not

Page 22100

 1     get enough power."

 2             Mr. Lubura, is this -- this is a threat by you, is it not, that

 3     power to Buca Potok would be cut off if Serb-held Grbavica does not get

 4     enough power; right?

 5        A.   Well, I'm not making any threats.  This is agreement, you know,

 6     between myself and Durmic, meaning 20 megawatts we would give to the

 7     inner area of the Muslim part of Sarajevo and the extra 3 megawatts

 8     should be passed to Grbavica, where the civilian population, Serbs, were

 9     living, but in Grbavica, there were Muslims, Croat, Serbians -- Serbs.

10     So the inner centre of town had to receive a minimum amount of

11     electricity.

12             Grbavica had a large number of citizens.  This was part of the

13     city centre held by the Serbs.  If we reached some sort of agreement, we

14     had to stick to it.  It was not a threat, meaning if we had agreed that

15     we would provide 20 megawatts from Reljevo to the Muslim side plus 3

16     kilowatts which they would then pass to another part of the centre of

17     town, they had to respect that meeting.  We stuck to our part of the

18     bargain to provide 3 megawatts from the Bacevo transformer station to the

19     pumping station area.  We did that.  As for whether all the pumps were

20     functional or not, this is not my area of professional expertise.

21        Q.   Mr. Lubura --

22        A.   I was not making any threats.  I was just asking that the

23     agreement be respected.

24        Q.   So it's correct, isn't it, that you're saying here that if the

25     Bosnian Muslim side don't respect the agreement, then you would cut off

Page 22101

 1     power to Buca Potok.  That's correct, isn't it?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, though, this never happened, and there

 3     were cases -- or there was situations when Grbavica did not have

 4     electricity and it was always a question of the cable breaking down, and

 5     I believe that.  But I am saying, I'm telling you with full

 6     responsibility that we did not switch electricity off from Reljevo, even

 7     though I said that here.  Perhaps we should have done that, though.  But

 8     it's true that Grbavica would not receive electricity from Buca Potok,

 9     but we would never cut the electricity to the inner centre of town

10     because of that.

11             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd tender that document as the next

12     Prosecution exhibit.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30732 receives number P6556,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. JEREMY:

18        Q.   Mr. Lubura, if the Bosnian Serb army wished to obstruct the flow

19     of electricity to Sarajevo, they were able to do that; correct?

20        A.   The Serbian army, if they wanted to cut the electricity, all they

21     had to do was to ask me.  I was in charge of electricity and I was the

22     only one who could cut electricity off.  Rather, my dispatchers at the

23     transformer stations, not the army.  Only I could have done it.  This was

24     my responsibility.

25        Q.   I'd like to refer you to another exhibit, 65 ter 30733.

Page 22102

 1             While it's coming up, Mr. Lubura I'll tell you it's a VRS

 2     Main Staff order that relates to the flow of electricity signed by

 3     Manojlo Milovanovic dated the 21st of May, 1994.

 4             Under the subheading "I hereby order," we read the following:

 5             "Do not make any changes in the sphere of civilian functioning in

 6     Sarajevo or anywhere else without my permission.  Especially, do not

 7     obstruct the flow of water, electricity, or gas without my permission

 8     because otherwise this could be turned against us."

 9             Mr. Lubura, consistent with your answer this document shows that

10     the VRS, and specifically the Main Staff, were able to make decisions

11     about whether or not to supply electricity to Sarajevo; correct?

12        A.   The Main Staff -- actually, this confirms my words.  The

13     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska never ordered such a thing.

14     Perhaps some lower-ranking commanders did try something like that or

15     lower-ranking authority organs.  But the Main Staff certainly did not.

16     Had the Main Staff wished to do that, it could then send this letter to

17     the director general of Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska who would

18     then in turn order me to cut electricity to the Muslim side in the

19     region.  Not to me.  The Main Staff -- you have to respect hierarchy in a

20     state.  It was the Main Staff.  They would send the letter to the

21     director general, Dr. Milorad Skoko of the Elektroprivreda enterprise.

22     He would in turn order me and I would order my dispatchers to cut the

23     electricity to the Muslim side.  However, I state with full

24     responsibility that I would not have done something like that, even if I

25     had received an order to that effect.

Page 22103

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'd like to tender that document as

 2     the next exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30733 receives number P6557,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. JEREMY:

 8        Q.   Witness, you've testified today and also in the Karadzic case

 9     that you were not involved in the process of gaining approval for access

10     to repair locations.  You testified in the Karadzic case that you

11     "... had no connections to either of the armed forces."  That's

12     transcript page T31058.

13             Mr. Lubura, you meant you had no connections to either the VRS or

14     the ABiH; correct?

15        A.   I did not have connections.  I was a civilian and I was

16     responsible to the civilian authorities.  I reported to the general board

17     of the Republika Srpska Elektroprivreda.  It's a civilian body.  And the

18     general manager was appointed by the government of the RS.  I could only

19     have been in some friendly relations with them, but that was it.

20        Q.   As regards your connection to political structures in

21     Republika Srpska, in the Karadzic case you testified at transcript page

22     31060:

23             "I was not interested in politics.  I'm an electrical engineer.

24     My only job was to maintain and fix electricity facilities that were in

25     my area of expertise."

Page 22104

 1             Do you confirm that testimony, Mr. Lubura?

 2        A.   I do.  I was never a member of any party after 1979 until today.

 3     I have no political engagements and I'm no member of any party.  From

 4     1979.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Lubura, considering those two answers about your

 6     connections to the VRS and the connections to the political structures

 7     within Republika Srpska, I'd like to refer to paragraph 14 of your new

 8     statement, P501.  We'll wait for a moment to get it onto our screens.

 9             Witness, in that paragraph 14 you state, and I quote:

10             "I had the support of the highest political structures for my

11     work, but also of the VRS, Army of Republika Srpska - Generals Mladic,

12     Galic, and Milosevic - to make sure that everything that was needed to

13     provide, transmit, and supply power to the whole of Sarajevo ... operated

14     at the highest possible level.  We were given approval for everything

15     that it was possible to do, and we did it."

16             Witness, this paragraph 14 in your new statement is quite a

17     stretch from the position that you set out in the Karadzic case as

18     regards your connection to political and military structures in

19     Republika Srpska and their support for your work, isn't it?

20        A.   May I explain?  When fixing transmission lines which were in Serb

21     territory but passing very close to Muslim lines, for example, the

22     Visegrad-Rogatica and Sokolac transmission line, I had to go to military

23     commands asking for security to be provided so that the Muslim side, from

24     Zepa, for example, or from Gorazde, or from Ustipraca, so that they

25     wouldn't arrive there and kill some of my workers.  That is how they

Page 22105

 1     assisted me.  That's what I meant.  The VRS did assist me in the sense

 2     that they provided security for my teams carrying out repairs of

 3     transmission lines which were close to Muslim -- the Muslim lines.  That

 4     is what I had in mind.

 5             As regards the political structures, sometimes independently and

 6     sometimes through the general board, I asked that uniforms and salaries

 7     and awards be provided for my workers who worked from 7.00 in the morning

 8     until 7.00 in the evening; that is to say, all day long.  I did not have

 9     sufficient number of people who would install equipment.  That was the

10     support I enjoyed.  The army also assisted me in the transport of

11     equipment.  For example, in Reljevo I had enormous quantities of

12     conductors which needed to be sent to have lines built through the

13     corridors.  The army provided trucks.  I didn't have ten or twenty, I

14     only had one truck in my plant.  That is how they did a service to me and

15     assisted me.

16        Q.   Witness --

17        A.   That is what this supplemental information --

18        Q.   Thank you.  When you referred to the military commands that you

19     would go to for security and the commands you would discuss transport

20     with, did -- did those persons include Generals Mladic, Galic, and

21     Milosevic?  Were your questions specifically aimed at them?

22        A.   I turned to -- directly to General Galic and General Milosevic.

23     But I was present when they called General Mladic.  He was the Chief of

24     Staff so they had to obtain his approval, and of course they did.  Of

25     course they did.  They explained why I needed ten trucks or a trailer to

Page 22106

 1     move the transformer and so on and so forth.

 2        Q.   So, Witness, on the basis of the support that was provided to you

 3     by the VRS for this security and the support for transport, that is the

 4     basis upon which you say that the -- the VRS did everything in their

 5     power to ensure electrical power to the whole area of Sarajevo operated

 6     at the highest level; correct?

 7        A.   Correct.  Precisely.  Precisely so.

 8        Q.   I'd like to show you another document.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P358.

10        Q.   Witness, this is coming up.  It's an entry in the military

11     notebook of General Mladic and it's dated the 5th of August, 1993, and it

12     refers to a meeting held at 10.30.

13             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to e-court page 262 in the English and

14     260 in the B/C/S, please.  Focus on the bottom of the page.

15        Q.   Mr. Lubura, we see this is a meeting held in Pale, Thursday, the

16     5th of August, 1993, meeting of the Supreme Command.  Karadzic is noted

17     as stating:   [As read] "The European community has decided that the war

18     in BH must end, but the US has not done that yet."

19             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to the next page, please.

20        Q.   We see on the third bullet that it states:

21             "They will strike us if we don't do something."

22             Number 1:

23             "They have decided that we must withdraw from Mount Igman and

24     Mount Bjelasnica.

25             2, "To have water, gas, and electricity brought to Sarajevo."

Page 22107

 1             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to the next page, please.

 2        Q.   Witness, we see now the minutes of a follow-up meeting with

 3     General Briquemont.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking.

 6             MR. JEREMY:

 7        Q.   And we see Karadzic is quoted as stating:

 8             "We are prepared to hand over to the UN the positions of

 9     Mount Igman and Bjelasnica."

10             And at number 2:

11             "We are prepared to make possible regular supplies of water, gas,

12     and electricity for Sarajevo."

13             Mr. Lubura, these entries read together show that after pressure

14     from the European community President Karadzic made a decision to "have

15     water, gas, and electricity brought back to Sarajevo."

16             Do you recall that decision?

17        A.   I recall it well.  Please.  In 1993, the city of Sarajevo did

18     have electricity just the way I explained.  20 plus 3.  It also had water

19     although I don't know what quantities.  It was probably less due to

20     failures.  But it had electricity.  The only thing that could happen is

21     something I have already testified about previously; for example, if the

22     Reljevo-Vogosca transmission line was interrupted or the other one going

23     to Kiseljak, but that would last up to seven or eight days at the most.

24     The city of Sarajevo did have electricity.  The longest period it did not

25     have electricity was between December 1992 until the 10th of January,

Page 22108

 1     1993.  The rest of the time Sarajevo did have electricity.

 2             Please.  Mr. Karadzic probably knew there was electricity.  The

 3     only time there was no electricity was when there were breakdowns.  Only

 4     then.  I claim responsibly again that no one ever ordered to me to cut

 5     electricity for Sarajevo.  The Muslim side or the Serb side did not have

 6     electricity only when there were failures, when there were breakdowns.

 7     The agreement reached between myself and Durmic was honoured.  I don't

 8     know.  I mean, I don't know what Mr. Karadzic meant.  Maybe he thought

 9     there should be more.  I don't know.

10        Q.   We'll stay on this topic and we'll stay on this decision that you

11     recall well, but we'll go to another exhibit.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter P02236.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  65 ter or is it a P number?

14             MR. JEREMY:  It's a P number.  Sorry.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then please repeat.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P2236.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document is under seal, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, not to be shown to the public.

19             MR. JEREMY:

20        Q.   Witness, this is a summary of an intercepted conversation

21     recorded by --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, I do not know why it is under seal.

23     Could you please keep that in mind when dealing with the document in open

24     session, that even if the public doesn't see it from your questions, it

25     may arise what the document is, and ... again, I have no --

Page 22109

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'll move on.  I'll move on past this

 2     document.  I'll move on [Indiscernible].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You can ask questions about it, but we might need to

 4     go into private session.  That's -- I leave it to you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mostly with these intercepts they are under seal

 6     because the location of the interceptors are secret.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go into private session, Your Honours

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22110











11  Page 22110 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22111

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11                           [Open session]

12             MR. JEREMY:

13        Q.   Witness, still on the same topic --

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. JEREMY:

17        Q.   Remaining on this topic, Mr. Lubura, I'd like to show you another

18     document, P5205.  And this is an agreement, a peace agreement signed by

19     commanders of the warring parties dated the 11th of August, 1993.  So

20     that's -- that's the very next day after this -- after the document that

21     we -- we've just looked at.

22             On page 2 --

23             MR. JEREMY:  If we could see page 2, please.

24        Q.   We read the undersigned -- at the top of the page, we read:  "The

25     undersigned military commanders as representatives of the parties in the

Page 22112

 1     conflict."  And then in a couple of paragraphs later:  "Hereby agree as

 2     follows."

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Can we go to page 5 in the English, please.  I think

 4     it's the same in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   And we see article -- halfway down the page article 9,

 6     "Restoration of Infrastructure," "Principles for Restoration of

 7     Infrastructure."

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is article 4, not 9.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Sorry, forgive my incorrect interpretation of Roman

10     numerals.

11        Q.   At 1B we see it states:

12             "Interfering with the supply of water, gas, or electricity as a

13     weapon or means of pressure is unacceptable.  Infrastructure shall not be

14     attacked or degraded in any way and shall not be used for any military

15     purpose."

16             If we go to the last page of this document --

17             MR. JEREMY:  Sorry, could we go a page back.  And one more page

18     back.

19        Q.   Witness, we see the signature there of General Mladic.

20             Witness, it's correct, isn't it, that a couple of days after this

21     peace agreement was signed electricity to the city of Sarajevo was turned

22     back on?

23        A.   I think this agreement was in force for all of the former

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and yet you seem to be applying it only to the region

25     of SarajevoSarajevo did have electricity.  I say it yet again --

Page 22113

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question.  Could you please respond

 2     to the question, Witness.

 3             The question was whether -- or whether it's true that a couple of

 4     days after this peace agreement was signed electricity to the city of

 5     Sarajevo was turned back on.

 6             That was the question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even know that the

 8     electricity had been cut before the agreement was signed, Mr. President.

 9     Thus, I don't know whether it was turned back on after the signing.  I

10     don't know that.  All I'm saying is that the only time when there was no

11     electricity was when there was a technical malfunction.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Mr. Lubura, I'd like to show you a final document in connection

15     with this particular area we've been discussing.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Could we see 65 ter 30742, please.

17        Q.   And, Mr. Lubura, while this is coming up, I'll tell you that it's

18     an excerpt from a 1993 annual report by the public enterprise

19     Elektroprivreda BiH.

20             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go to the second page of this document,

21     which is page 10 of a larger exhibit.

22        Q.   Witness in the -- about halfway down the page, we read:

23             "During 1993 the city was without electricity supply about 140

24     days.  The longest cutout period occurred from June 21st to August 13 (53

25     days)."

Page 22114

 1             Mr. Lubura, this document shows that two days after

 2     General Mladic signed this peace agreement that prohibited the

 3     interference of -- with electricity as a means of pressure, that

 4     electricity to Sarajevo was turned back on; correct?

 5        A.   This BH Elektroprivreda document is something that I don't know

 6     if it is correct or not.  But what they're saying, that there were 53

 7     days in a single stretch when there was no electricity, I disagree.  I'm

 8     positive it was not the case.  Now, where they find these 53 days between

 9     June 21 and August 13, I don't know.  I sincerely doubt it.  I cannot

10     recall all -- all such details.  It was a long time ago.

11             As far as I remember, there would be seven, eight, up to ten days

12     at the most when there was major repair work to be done.  I really don't

13     remember any such long periods.  And they're saying that for 140 days

14     they were out of electricity?  I could check that because there are

15     log-books in the Republika Srpska Elektroprivreda where consumption is

16     shown and when there was no electricity because each plant had its own

17     log-book.  For example, the one at the Reljevo transformer station.  You

18     can find there the time when there was no electricity, even if it was

19     only for half an hour.  I really don't know this document, and I have

20     nothing to say about it.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honour, I tender that document as the next

22     Prosecution Exhibit.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30742 receives number P6558,

25     Your Honours.

Page 22115

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  It's -- 6558 is

 2     admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. JEREMY:

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Lubura.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  No further questions, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

 7             Before we take the break, I'd like to take the witness back for a

 8     second to P6554, but not to be shown at this moment.  What I'd like to

 9     have on the screen is D502.  And I add to that, that to the extent it is

10     unclear in the transcript that P6554 was admitted, P6554 is admitted.  If

11     it's not clear yet, then it should be clear now.

12             Could we have a look at D502.

13             Witness, in that document I just referred to and where parts were

14     read to you, there something was said about the Kosevo-Velesici line

15     which you say is for the 100 per cent on the Muslim side.  Could you --

16     and perhaps the usher could assist and give the witness a marker.  Could

17     you please mark exactly what you understand to be the Kosevo-Velesici

18     line.

19             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That, then, apparently is a line which is not

21     represented on this map.  You now add to that --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are cable lines, that's why

23     they're not shown.  These are aerial lines, above ground transmission

24     lines.

25             All these transformer stations were interconnected by cables.

Page 22116

 1     That's why I'm saying this document is not correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, why would you need a mixed -- a mixed team to

 3     make any repairs there?  It sounds a bit ...

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At Kosevo-Velesici, a mixed team

 5     was not needed.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we then have a look again at P6554, page --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry for interrupting.  I think there is

10     translation issue.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It could be.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I don't want to pose the question, but

13     Mr. Lubura explained what kind of lines were presented on -- on this map

14     and what kind of line was this green one.  So I think it's not correctly

15     presented in -- in the transcript and in the translation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you again, then, explain what kind of

17     line the green line is you marked?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are cable connections between

19     Kosevo and Velesici.  That's why I understand this reference.  It's not

20     on the territory of Republika Srpska at all.  It's inside the city.

21     Kosevo is connected by cable to Velesici, whereas these black lines --

22     Velesici are connected with, as you see, with Sarajevo 4 and Sarajevo 10,

23     and that's an above ground connection going partly through Serb territory

24     and partly through Muslim territory.  Kosevo is connected with --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes --

Page 22117

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- both number 4 --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand you.  First of all, the marking

 3     seems to have disappeared but perhaps was not saved.

 4             It's saved.  Okay.  Then, could -- first of all, could that

 5     receive a new number so that we -- that would then be a --

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think it's a --

 8             Mr. Lukic, would you mind if the little green extra line would be

 9     on your account?

10             MR. LUKIC:  I don't mind, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then a D number, please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document as marked by the witness receives number

13     D507, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             If -- if we look at the document where it is discussed, it reads:

16             "The repair has not been performed yet.  The representative of

17     Sector Sarajevo said that BH side had accepted to have a mixed team for

18     the repair and that all necessary authorisation had been obtained, but a

19     local BS commander had not aloud the team to do the repair on the 22nd of

20     February."

21             And then the Bosnian Serb side said that they would check with

22     their authorities what was the problem.  Now, what you would expect if we

23     listen to your testimony is that the Bosnian Serb side would have said,

24     What have we got to do with this totally internal BiH matter?  We are not

25     in any way involved in that.

Page 22118

 1             So if the BS side would check with their authorities and that the

 2     mission should be performed in a week, then that's difficult to reconcile

 3     with your answer that the Bosnian Serb side had got nothing to do with

 4     this repair, irrespective of whether there may be an unclear description

 5     of what line it exactly is about.  Any comment?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This must be an error.  Transformer

 7     stations Kosevo and Velesici were connected by cable, not by above ground

 8     transmission lines.  I don't know how Serbs could have contested it.

 9     Cables run underground.  They are not above ground.  And it runs through

10     Muslim territory, 100 per cent sure.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have understood your earlier explanation.

12     You say, I have no explanation for the position taken by the Bosnian Serb

13     side during this meeting.  Either it's reflected incorrectly or it is

14     incomprehensible.

15             We leave it to that.  Could the witness be escorted out of the

16     courtroom.  You follow the usher and be back after the break.

17             Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to how much time

18     you would need?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Couple of minutes, maybe.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, a couple of minutes.  Then we'll -- the only

21     question which then remains, whether the next witness should remain

22     standby because we resume at 2.00, five minutes past 2.00 for a couple of

23     minutes ...

24             Perhaps if the witness would remain standby.  If there's ten

25     minutes, then we still would use that.

Page 22119

 1             We take a break and we'll resume at 2.00 sharp.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.39 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

 5     into the courtroom, Mr. Lukic, we -- we agreed that the map marked again

 6     now with a green line would receive a D number - D507 - but I had not yet

 7     pronounced the words that it is admitted into evidence.  It hereby is.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I just want to inform

12     Your Honours and the witness that all my additional questions have

13     already been answered, so I have nothing additional for this witness and

14     I just want to thank him for answering to our questions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that doesn't trigger think any need for

16     further question, Mr. Jeremy.

17             Since the Bench has no further questions for you either,

18     Mr. Lubura, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I would like to

19     thank you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and having

20     answered questions that were put to you by the parties and put to you by

21     the Bench.  I wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the

22     usher.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And Mr. Usher, if you could please bring the next

25     witness.

Page 22120

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Because, Mr. Traldi, you just had started your

 3     cross-examination for the next witness.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, that's right, Mr. President.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll be with us only for a very short time today.

10     Unfortunately, we have not much time left, but I can assure you that

11     tomorrow we'll spend far more time with you than we do today, which will

12     not be more than ten minutes most likely.

13             Could I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn

14     declaration that you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

15             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

16             Mr. Traldi.

17                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO CVORO [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

20             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Cvoro.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Sir, in our limited time today, I just want to ask you some basic

24     questions about the makeup of Pale municipality during your time in

25     office.

Page 22121

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Could we please have 65 ter 02559A.  And if we could

 2     turn to page 2.

 3        Q.   Looking at the left side of the screen, do you see the word

 4     "Pale" about a quarter of the way down the page?

 5        A.   I see it.

 6        Q.   And the villages listed beneath it are villages that were in Pale

 7     municipality in 1991; correct?

 8        A.   Well, just glancing at it, yes.  These are villages that belonged

 9     to Pale municipality.  But if you want a more detailed answer, I would

10     have to read it all.  But just at a glance, yes.

11        Q.   Then directing your attention to the far right side of the page,

12     do you see the Italic number 10 across from Pale?  Just continuing from

13     Pale to the numbers to the far right side of the page.

14        A.   The last one?

15        Q.   Yeah.

16        A.   I see only one number, whether it's 10 or 20, I don't know.  I

17     think it's 10.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Could we then turn to the next page, page 3 in the

19     B/C/S.  And if we could zoom in on the same spot in the page, row number

20     10.

21        Q.   Now, this covers a period of several decades, but beginning on

22     the left side we see figures for Pale in 1991, figures of 16.355 total

23     persons with a 129 Croats, 4.364 Muslims, and 11.284 Serbs.  That would

24     make the municipality about 69 per cent Serb, 27 per cent Muslim, and 1

25     per cent Croat.  Does that roughly accord with your recollection of the

Page 22122

 1     ethnic representation in Pale at the time?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was at the beginning, when I became president of the

 3     Executive Board on the 1st of January, 1992.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I tendered 65 ter 02559A as the

 5     next public Prosecution exhibit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02559A receives number P6559,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P6559 is admitted.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask that we have 65 ter 30713 on our

11     screens.  This is an ethnic majority map of the Sarajevo area, including

12     Pale.  And I'd ask that we zoom in on the Pale municipality, just in the

13     centre right part of the screen.

14        Q.   And, sir, if you could take a minute to familiarise yourself with

15     the depiction of villages on this map, and then let us know when you've

16     done so.

17        A.   Okay.

18        Q.   The villages represented with blue dots had majority Serb

19     populations before the war, didn't they?

20        A.   I suppose so.  I'm not sure about Praca but Podgradac and the

21     other villages, yes.

22        Q.   And the villages coloured green had Muslim majorities before the

23     war, didn't they?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   And in the south-east corner we see a cluster of villages

Page 22123

 1     represented with green dots.  Do you see those?  Just to the east of

 2     Praca.

 3        A.   I see it, yes.

 4        Q.   On Friday at transcript page 21930, you mentioned a Muslim

 5     municipality called Pale Praca was established much later.  Is it your

 6     evidence that this was the area where that Muslim municipality was

 7     eventually established?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  It's part of local commune Praca.  I don't see

 9     Renovica here, but Renovica -- I'm not sure whether it was a local

10     commune.

11        Q.   Sir --

12        A.   I think it was --

13        Q.   That answers the question, sir.

14        A.   -- but I can't see it on the map.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, I'd tendered 65 ter 30713 as the

16     next public Prosecution exhibit.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30713 receives number P6560,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

21             Mr. Traldi, the witness expressed some doubts as to whether Praca

22     was majority Serb.  Now at least in one of the statistics, it's -- I

23     think it gives 490 -- yes -- no, no, it's okay.  Yes.

24             Please proceed.  It's -- it comes close.  Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I think, Your Honour, it's represented on page four

Page 22124

 1     of this excerpt.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I was looking at that, and we have close to 500

 3     Muslims to close to 600 Serbs.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to the assistance that the municipal

 7     authorities provided to some other Bosnian Serb institutions in Pale.

 8     The Defence showed you a report from the SRNA News Agency on Friday, and

 9     I suspect this will be the only institution I ask you about today.  The

10     director of SRNA was Todor Dutina; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In April 1992, he came to see you and requested assistance in

13     establishing the agency; correct?

14        A.   I'm not receiving interpretation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Move to channel 6 and see.  Do you now receive

16     translation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear it now.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   In April 1992, Mr. Dutina came to see you and requested

21     assistance in establishing SRNA; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And you provided him with supplies, including a telephone with a

24     telefax, a telephone number, and a typewriter, didn't you?

25        A.   And premises.  Premises for the agency.

Page 22125

 1        Q.   Thank you for that clarification, sir.  Now while you provided

 2     assistance, SRNA was established and founded by Republika Srpska;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Right.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could just have 65 ter 16161.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That will be the last document we look at,

 7     Mr. Traldi, for today, yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  It will, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Just directing your attention to article 1, it reads:

10             "In order to meet the informative interests of the Serb people in

11     BiH, we are forming public company Serb News Agency, SRNA."

12             Did I read that correctly?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 16161 as the next

15     public Prosecution exhibit.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16161 receives number P6561,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P6561 is admitted.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I think that's a convenient time, Mr. President, to

21     break for the day.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It is.

23             Mr. Cvoro, we will already adjourn.  We'd like to see you back

24     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom.

25             I instruct you as I did last Thursday, that you should not speak

Page 22126

 1     or communicate with whomever about your testimony, whether already given

 2     or still to be given.

 3             You may follow the usher.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow,

 6     Wednesday, the 4th of June, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the

 7     morning.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of June,

10                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.