Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 22317

 1                           Friday, 6 June 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber was informed that there were preliminary matters to

11     be raised.

12             Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I don't know if the Prosecution

14     has anything preliminary but I have a preliminary matter to raise that

15     pertains to GRM311 and the last bit of questioning from yesterday that,

16     in fact, time-wise may have been the reason that we had to continue the

17     witness today for ten to 15 minutes despite the efforts to finish the

18     witness yesterday, including the request by VWS.

19             Beginning at transcript page 22294, line 13 onwards, there are

20     some considerable lapses in the translation that became evident from

21     reviewing the videotape of yesterday's hearing, where the original B/C/S

22     spoken by the witness does not correlate to the English that is a part of

23     the transcript.  We are mindful of how difficult a job it is to

24     simultaneously translate, and indeed the translator said at

25     transcript page 22295, lines 20 through 21:

Page 22318

 1             "The interpreter is not sure that the witness is clearly

 2     understood."

 3             There is apparent confusion seen from both the questions of

 4     Judges Moloto and Orie that appear to be the result of the incomplete and

 5     imprecise translation that we believe may have misled Your Honours.  For

 6     purposes of correcting the record, the incidence at transcript

 7     page 22294, lines 13 through 19, the witness never mentioned headless

 8     bodies hanging from a church door but rather decapitated human heads.  He

 9     never mentioned the hospital, he mentioned a factory.  The fact that the

10     driver claimed himself to be Serbian also is entirely missing from the

11     transcript.

12             Continuing at lines 19 through 25, the witnesses words are not

13     entered when he said:

14             "Going towards the factory, I came across an even greater horror

15     where stray dogs, a pack of around 15 of them, were biting each other,

16     and when I wanted to pass, three them had human heads tied around their

17     necks and were fighting with one another to try and chew them.  That was

18     27 April 1993.  I came earlier, as I had been driven by that guy, and

19     armed people at the gate would not let me inside.  Rather, they made me

20     go far away."

21             This is significantly different from the English transcript.  The

22     words that Judge Orie asks about at transcript page 22295, lines 12 to

23     13:

24             "They were biting them and biting off parts of their bodies," is

25     not to be found in the B/C/S original of what the witness said.

Page 22319

 1             It is significant that neither in the English -- pardon me,

 2     neither in the B/C/S original does the witness ever say that he was

 3     running.  That notion of running is for the first time raised by

 4     Judge Moloto's question at transcript page 22296, line 25, putting the

 5     words to the witness that he did not say.  The Serbian word used by the

 6     witness in the first instance was "naletio sam."  Judge Moloto's question

 7     as to running is translated to the witness in B/C/S as follows:

 8             [Interpretation] "That means that you were almost rushing along.

 9     You could move very fast, even though your leg was broken in this

10     incident near the pit."

11             [In English] The Serbian word --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, sorry to interrupt you.  I suggest -- I

13     have a suggestion, but I'd first like to briefly discuss it with my

14     colleagues.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber had some concerns that you

17     are giving translations, but apart from that, the Chamber also

18     understands your concerns.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether that is the most appropriate way of dealing

21     with them is another matter.  But the Chamber suggests the following, and

22     would like to hear from the parties whether they would agree.  First of

23     all, that the yesterday's audio will be again interpreted and transcribed

24     in full; second, that the witness will be asked to tell this part of his

25     testimony, this piece of the story again, in detail, so that we have both

Page 22320

 1     a better insight in what may have gone wrong yesterday.  And second, that

 2     we hear now the testimony of the witness in full on this incident.

 3             Mr. Ivetic, would that --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That is in line with what we were intending to

 5     ask --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  -- insofar as we wanted the section from transcript

 8     pages 22294 through 22298, including both the B/C/S translated to the

 9     witness and the B/C/S spoken by the witness and the correct English

10     equivalents of both to be redone by CLSS.  So that would be in line with

11     what Your Honours are suggesting, I think.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Ms. MacGregor.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The Prosecution has

15     no objection to the review and retranslation of the transcript excerpts.

16             As to asking the same questions to the witness today, I'll defer

17     to the Chamber.  I would point out that the two particular issues that

18     Mr. Ivetic has raised were actually corrected by the witness himself.

19     The issue about headless bodies, eventually later in the transcript he

20     corrected to say, no, it wasn't headless bodies, it was heads.  And the

21     question dealing with Judge Moloto's question about running, the witness

22     himself said "to run into," is different.  So I actually found that

23     overall it was clear what the witness had said and he managed to correct

24     that himself.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 22321

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the Chamber will invite the witness to

 2     tell the story again, and if any further unclarities remain, you still

 3     have an opportunity in re-examination to further clarify these matters.

 4     Since the parties seem to be in support of the suggested way to proceed,

 5     that's what we'll do.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can request that it be done before I begin

 7     the rest of my cross-examination.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I wanted to -- yes, because if there is any

 9     confusion during cross-examination, you should have an opportunity to --

10     to further explore matters once they have been clarified.  And to the

11     extent they are not, Mr. Ivetic still has an opportunity to further seek

12     clarification.

13             Mr. Ivetic, any other matter.

14             MR. IVETIC:  No, that is all that I had, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. MacGregor, I was informed that you had a

16     question as well as.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  Mine are actually just about exhibits and

18     administrative housekeeping, so I can deal with it as the witness is

19     brought in if you would prefer to save time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, although it may take some time because we might

21     need Madam Registrar to assign numbers, et cetera, and I'd rather avoid

22     that the witness has to wait again.  So let's first deal with those.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             The first matter is yesterday we had Exhibit P6576 entered into

25     evidence.  This was the map zoomed in with the blue line drawn upon it.

Page 22322

 1     I've talked to the Registrar and I would like to have the map zoomed out

 2     without the line as a separate additional exhibit.  My understanding is

 3     that's the only way to have both versions before the Chamber.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you say the map without the line, you

 5     mean the blue line because the red lines were there already.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Correct.  So the 65 ter of the original is 30766.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, that original version with the red

 8     marking made in a previous case would receive number?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30766 receives number P6578,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Yes, Ms. MacGregor.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  And my last, final issue.  Yesterday you may

14     remember that I put a question to the witness regarding enquiries that

15     the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- Prosecution made about his health records.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Health records or enquiries about how his medical

19     situation was perceived by coworkers?

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  The enquiry was for that purpose but also to

21     determine if there were any health records in the custody of his

22     employer.  The response that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Should we -- can we deal with it in open session?

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  We can.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

Page 22323

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  The response that we received is an internal OTP

 2     report describing the interview that was conducted.  We are in the

 3     process of determining if we may seek to tender that into evidence and

 4     we'll have a determination by next week.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you shared it with the Defence?

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, Mr. President.  I gave a copy to Mr. Ivetic

 7     yesterday morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And you postpone your determination whether or not

 9     you want to tender it?

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, but I intend to give information to the

11     Chamber by next week.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. IVETIC:  And I can report that I received the English

14     translation.  I would like to see what the language is in the original

15     and what the source is.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  I will do that very soon.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And that will then be included in your

18     submissions we could expect next week.

19             Having said this, we have to turn briefly into closed session in

20     order to have the witness be escorted in the courtroom.  After that,

21     we'll return into open session.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22324

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Good morning, Witness GRM311.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  May I first remind you that you are still bound by

14     the solemn declaration that you have given at the beginning of your

15     testimony, that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

16     the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  GRM311 [Resumed]

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Having said this, I would like to revisit a matter

20     which was dealt with yesterday.  Yesterday you have given testimony about

21     an event which you described as starting with being taken into a black

22     limousine, and what happened then, that is, about the dogs.  Do you

23     remember?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, there may have been some confusion about your

Page 22325

 1     testimony.  There may have been some translation issues, and for that

 2     reason, I would ask you to tell us that part of the story again.  And if

 3     you do that in small portions, then we may have some additional questions

 4     in order to avoid that further confusion would arise.

 5             So therefore, I would like to invite you to tell us again what

 6     happened when, as you said yesterday, you were stopped and you were taken

 7     into a black limousine.  You said the men wouldn't stop, whereas you were

 8     supposed to get off, that part of the story.  Could you please tell us

 9     that event again.  So your limousine stopped, and could you tell us then

10     what exactly happened?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the driver was in the car.  I

12     said that he didn't wear a mask, he had a long beard, and his head was

13     shaved.  In front of the Novi Grad Municipal Assembly building or

14     Assembly building, he opened the door and asked me, "Where are you

15     going?"  I said that I was going to work.  He said to me, "Well, I can

16     see that you're walking with difficulty and I'm going in the direction of

17     the town.  I can give you a lift."  I told him that it was about a

18     quarter past 5.00.  I told him that I had plenty of time to get to the

19     factory and to begin my work.  Once again he said, "Get in, get in, I can

20     give you a lift because I can see that you're walking with difficulty."

21     We talked a little, he asked me where did I work, how many of you were

22     there.  It was obvious that he knew about my work.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Please be cautious that if

24     any part of the story, because you now started telling us a discussion

25     about where you worked, that you do not reveal any deals such that

Page 22326

 1     someone would be able to identify you.  So please be very cautious and

 2     ask for private session if you think you should tell us something that

 3     might reveal your identity.

 4             Please proceed.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22327











11  Pages 22327-22331 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22332

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 22333

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             Ms. MacGregor will now continue her cross-examination,

 4     Witness GRM311.  Listen carefully to the questions and we'll try to keep

 5     it as short as possible.

 6             Ms. MacGregor.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Good morning again, Mr. Witness.

10        A.   Good morning.

11             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I could please have Exhibit P6576 to not be

12     broadcast.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm going to bring up again the map we were looking at

14     yesterday, the map that has the red line showing your route from your

15     home to Kosevo hospital.

16             Now, when we're looking at the map, I'm going to ask you if you

17     can see the railroad lines.  They're shown as two black double lines

18     pretty much parallel to the red line that you drew on the map.  So once

19     it comes up on your screen, we'll look for that line together.  Okay?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It takes a while to appear on your screen.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:

22        Q.   Okay.  It seems to have come up now.  If you look slightly above

23     the red line, do you see the railroad track lines that I'm referring to?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And just based on your knowledge of Sarajevo, are you familiar

Page 22334

 1     with the fact that there is a railroad line that runs along there?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  I need to go into private session for one

 4     question please, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22335

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, was there a road that ran -- is there a road that

21     runs along the railroad tracks that we were just talking about?

22        A.   Now, yes.  It was built after the war.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, can I have one moment?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 22336

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             Now, if we can zoom out a little bit from this map right now.

 3     Just about one click.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Witness, do you see at the upper right-hand corner of

 5     this page there is a red rectangle along the railroad tracks which

 6     represents the train station?

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  And if it assists, perhaps we can zoom in on that

 8     particular quadrant.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think I see that.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:

11        Q.   And if we look --

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I ask that we do zoom in a bit on that

13     quadrant.

14        Q.   And if we look just under the railroad station, we see a road.

15     It's very difficult to read, but the road is called Put Zivota, which is

16     the "Route of Life."  And do you know that street?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   You're not --

19        A.   Put Zivota?  I just heard that the Muslims proclaimed that.  Now,

20     why that was Put Zivota, the "Route of Life," I don't know.

21        Q.   You're not aware that it was called that because it was an

22     alternative safer route than walking along the Marshal Tito barracks

23     along the red line that you have drawn on the map?

24             MR. IVETIC:  I would object -- well, no, I withdraw my objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

Page 22337

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, my question was:  You're not aware that this street

 3     was called the "Route of Life" because it was known as an alternative,

 4     safer route than the more dangerous route in front of the Marshal Tito

 5     barracks, you are unaware of that fact; is that correct?

 6        A.   I don't know why that street was called that.  I only heard of

 7     this name only after the war when I returned to Sarajevo.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             I want to ask you, you've drawn on this map now --

15        A.   All right.

16        Q.   -- a red line and a blue line to show the route that you walked

17     to get to Kosevo hospital.  Now, you've just said that you regularly took

18     a different route, Put Zivota, which you've not drawn as your route.  Can

19     you explain which of these routes did you regularly take?

20        A.   I took this road, by the railway station.  I didn't draw this

21     right because I can't see.  This is the blue line that I drew yesterday,

22     but I didn't draw it properly.  I went further away from the railway

23     station.  Yes, this is where the railway station is.  I think that this

24     precisely is the railway station, this, and this is where I went.  Along

25     this route.  The Marshal Tito barracks was a sort of shield there, and it

Page 22338

 1     went almost to Marin Dvor or to the mechanical engineering school or the

 2     technical school.

 3        Q.   When you've been saying "this," "this is the railway station,"

 4     are you still referring to the red rectangular shape?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, are you aware that the route that is drawn in

 7     red on this map was known as sniper alley because of how dangerous it was

 8     during the war?

 9        A.   I don't know what it was called during the war.  Even after the

10     war I did not hear of that name.  I know that sniper shooters were firing

11     from the technical school, from the executive council building, and from

12     two museums.  All of that is there when you enter Marin Dvor.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  We can remove the map from the screen.  Thank

15     you.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, you've given evidence that you walked along a route

17     between your house and the Kosevo hospital once a week for nearly

18     two years during the war.  You testified that you walked past the

19     PTT building, the Marshal Tito barracks, the Holiday Inn, the

20     National Museum, the Assembly building; is that correct?

21        A.   Excuse me.  I did not go by the Holiday Inn.  I went along this

22     route that I mentioned, by the railway station.  Then I got into

23     Kranjcevica Street where the military hospital is.  And then along that

24     street, next to the military hospital, I would go to the centre next to

25     the Radnik cinema.

Page 22339

 1        Q.   You testified that when you walked, you never saw barricades or

 2     containers for civilians to hide in along the route.  You also testified

 3     that throughout the entire war, from May 1992 until the middle of 1996,

 4     approximately four years, you testified that you never once saw

 5     UN personnel or UN vehicles in Sarajevo; is that correct?

 6        A.   Maybe I did see that but I don't remember seeing that, because

 7     there is nothing that would particularly attract me to that.  Well,

 8     please, Muslims had tens of vehicles marked as UN in order to get closer

 9     to the Serbs to destroy them.  The international community knows that but

10     nobody reacted to that.  The Muslims are now bragging about that in

11     streets, in cafes, saying where they went and what they did.

12        Q.   Did you observe UN vehicles that were actually in the -- under

13     the control of Muslims during the war?

14        A.   I did not see vehicles like that in anybody's hands.  I heard

15     people talking.

16        Q.   So the information you just provided is based on something that

17     you've heard either during the war or after the war; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, because I've already said I did not see that but I heard,

19     even now, that they talk about that in public, that they camouflaged

20     their own vehicles, their own tanks, painting the UN sign on them, in

21     order to attack the Serbs.

22        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that your observations about what you saw in

23     Sarajevo, especially your lack of ever seeing the presence of the UN

24     during the war, that your observations about seeing mortars and artillery

25     and snipers --

Page 22340

 1        A.   No --

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   -- I didn't see that.

 4        Q.   -- I put it to you that your observations cannot be relied upon.

 5     It is simply beyond belief that you would not have seen the presence of

 6     the UN during the war.  Do you have any explanation?

 7        A.   No, because I wasn't interested in that.  I was only interested

 8     in how I could get to work and how I could go back home and how I could

 9     do what I had been ordered to do.  And what I saw, mortars, cannons, I

10     had to see that because I passed by them just a metre or two away.

11        Q.   You've also been inconsistent about the route that you took

12     regularly between 1994 and 1996 to get from your house to the

13     Kosevo hospital.  Much of the route you've described would have been

14     through one of the most dangerous, notorious thoroughfares in Sarajevo

15     during the war, passing major military targets.  This route, there is

16     evidence that it was lined with barricades and containers in an attempt

17     to protect civilians which you say you didn't see.  You also claim you

18     would have taken that route even though you were aware that there were

19     safer routes to the north that you were aware of from where you worked.

20     Now, this doesn't make sense to me that you would choose an unsafe route,

21     especially as an injured man walking for two hours.  Can you explain why

22     you chose that?

23             MR. IVETIC:  I believe, Your Honours, I would have to object to

24     the question being compound, misstating what the witness actually said,

25     relying upon uncited evidence or testifying.  I mean, I can't tell the

Page 22341

 1     difference between it in the long, rambling question as it is.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, could you split up.  And whenever you

 3     refer to the evidence of the witness, be precise on it.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  I will try to do so.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In addition to that, could you also refrain from any

 6     argumentative elements in your questions --

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm attempting, under

 8     Rule 90(H) --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not --

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- to make it clear what our position is.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you to explain why you put a

12     question; I'm giving you guidance and instructions on how to put a

13     question.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Excuse me for one

15     moment.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  Sorry, Your Honours.  I notice that this is also

18     a time for a break.  I think it's going to take me a bit of time to

19     breakup this question efficiently, so I don't know if this is a good

20     moment to take that break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now.

22             We have to move into closed session in order to allow the witness

23     to leave the courtroom, and we'll resume in 20 minutes, again in

24     closed session, and then turn into open session after that.

25                           [Closed session]

Page 22342











11  Page 22342 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 22343

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 6             Ms. MacGregor, you may proceed.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm going to take my questions a little slower.

 9     You've marked a route in red on a map to show how you walked to the

10     Kosevo hospital, and you did that during your Dragomir Milosevic

11     testimony; is that correct?

12        A.   It may be so.  However, I used the main road, and most of the

13     time I used the route I yesterday marked in blue.

14        Q.   Today you also mentioned a third route which included the road of

15     Put Zivota; is that correct?

16             MR. IVETIC:  I object.  It misstates the evidence from yesterday,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think that Ms. MacGregor was referring to

19     today and --

20             MR. IVETIC:  It's not different from yesterday, Your Honour.  If

21     you look --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

23             MR. IVETIC:  -- at the transcript at page 22306, the route

24     described by the witness --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so you would say --

Page 22344

 1             MR. IVETIC:  -- is that same route that we've talked about today.

 2     And at transcript page 22- --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but -- Mr. Ivetic --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Can I make a record, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  It's clear what you meant when you said that --

 6     as a matter of fact, you said it misstates the evidence from yesterday,

 7     whereas the question was about today --

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Being different from yesterday.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.  I now understand that.  I think

10     Ms. MacGregor now also understands better the reference made by you.  And

11     it's my recollection that the witness explained a few things and, apart

12     from all that, he said today that he's not very good at marking which

13     may --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Which he also said yesterday when he marked it,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. IVETIC:  At transcript line [sic] 22307, 10 through 12.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, could you have a look at it and then

19     again put your question to the witness.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I have one moment, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, it would take me a moment to study

24     the transcript references Mr. Ivetic gave against the map, but I don't

25     agree with the summary that Mr. Ivetic has given.  My understanding of

Page 22345

 1     this witness's evidence is that --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not, in the presence of the witness,

 3     discussing what it is.  You'll have an opportunity to further look at it.

 4     If you put your next question to the witness, then you'll be given time

 5     to look at those pages and the Chamber will do the same.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, I want it to be clear to you what the Prosecution

 9     position is on the evidence you've given about the route that you walked.

10     What I'm putting to you is that the observations that you've conveyed

11     about what you saw when you walked between your residence and the

12     Kosevo hospital, that those observations are unreliable because you've

13     been very inconsistent about where, in fact, you walked.

14             Do you have any comment?

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it will be made.

Page 22346

 1             Mr. Ivetic, by the way, on page 22310, I think you referred to

 2     lines 7 to 12?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  22307, lines 10 through 12.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I misheard.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Witness, I'm going to move on to a different topic.

 8             The medical care that you received at Kosevo hospital, did you

 9     ever receive treatment for your leg or your broken arm -- your broken arm

10     or broken leg?

11        A.   Not during the war.

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19        Q.   Today, Mr. Witness, when describing the incident with the man

20     with the shaved head, you testified at transcript pages 14 to 17 of the

21     temporary transcript, you testified that you believed he was trying to

22     destabilise you psychologically.  Now, did you feel psychologically

23     destabled [sic] as a result of that incident and the other incidents

24     you've talked about?

25        A.   All Serbs who spent the war in Sarajevo were psychologically

Page 22347

 1     destabilised.  If necessary, I can mention the names of those Serbs who

 2     were there during the war; although, I don't see them in Sarajevo itself

 3     as much or nearly as much as here in The Hague.  All of them are

 4     destabilised.  People walk about talking about things that simply don't

 5     exist.  I know a case of someone who said that he was going to run for

 6     president.  In other words, all of us were destabilised.

 7        Q.   I want to ask you a few questions to follow up.  So only Serbs

 8     who were in Sarajevo were psychologically destabilised?  What about

 9     Bosnian Muslims?

10        A.   You can check that.

11        Q.   But what about your knowledge about Bosnian Muslims and what they

12     suffered during the war?

13        A.   Did they discuss my life in Sarajevo during the war, the life

14     that was imposed on me by them?  Did you ever bother to check that,

15     Madam Prosecutor?

16        Q.   You've talked about many crimes that you saw committed against

17     Serb civilians.  I'm asking did you ever see or hear about crimes

18     committed against Muslims civilians?

19        A.   I can't discuss that.  Until 1994, I was mostly in the factory,

20     save for a few hours that I would get to spend home.  In the evening when

21     I did, they would call me three times per night to see whether I was

22     there.  When my wife answered, they wanted me on the phone personally.

23     If I took -- when I took sick leave, the telephone was cut off

24     immediately.

25        Q.   We don't have a lot of time, so I ask you, please, to listen to

Page 22348

 1     the questions I'm asking.  Now you worked -- your two colleagues at the

 2     factory were Muslims; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   They never told you about crimes committed against Muslims that

 5     they heard about.  Is that what you're saying?

 6        A.   No, there was no time to talk.  120 or 150 hand-grenades had to

 7     be made each day, and we did so without even as much as looking at each

 8     other, let alone talking.

 9        Q.   You were a civilian during the war; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   You're not an expert on artillery; is that right?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   I want to ask you a question about paragraph 15 of your

14     statement.  This is the paragraph where you describe how you got your

15     daughter and your wife out of Sarajevo.  The final sentence of that

16     paragraph, you say:

17             "Neither any of the international organisations nor UNPROFOR

18     helped me to get members of my family out of the city."

19             Now, you've said today that you did not see the presence of the

20     UN in the city during the war, so why would you mention here in your

21     statement that UNPROFOR did not assist you?

22        A.   Precisely because I didn't see them.  I didn't know where they

23     were to be found.  I asked for help from the Muslims in my settlement.  I

24     asked for help from their command, but they wanted me to pay

25     5.000 German marks only for my daughter to come out of the town, and I

Page 22349

 1     didn't have that kind of money.

 2        Q.   So you did not approach UNPROFOR for assistance; is that correct?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Turning to the incident again at the pit.  Now, you've given

 5     evidence that as a result of that incident you broke your arm and your

 6     leg.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  That's at transcript 22261.

 8        Q.   You also gave evidence that you had fainting spells several times

 9     a day as a result.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  That's at 22288.

11        Q.   You gave evidence that you continued to walk to work between

12     January 1993 and June of 1994, a distance of 5 kilometres each way.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  This is at transcript 22280.

14        Q.   Today, you said you could barely walk from the same injury.

15     Yesterday you mentioned not being able to walk at all during this period.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  That's at 22261.

17        Q.   You gave evidence that you worked the same schedule 12 hours a

18     day, seven days a week, at a physically demanding job.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  That's at transcript 22281 through 22283.

20        Q.   Additionally, your account of the incident at the pit has

21     changed.  On two occasions during your testimony in the Milosevic trial,

22     you were recorded as saying that the incident occurred on the

23     27th of October 1992, and we discussed this yesterday at transcript 22285

24     through 86.  You never once mentioned during the Milosevic trial that

25     that incident occurred on Serb Christmas Eve.  You confirmed that

Page 22350

 1     yesterday at transcript page 22286.  Yesterday you said that the incident

 2     happened on 5 January 1993, and your explanation of why the dates were

 3     different from your Milosevic testimony is that somebody made a mistake,

 4     and that's at 22284.

 5             And I put it to you that your evidence that you've given about

 6     the pit, what you saw and what happened to you, is simply incredible

 7     based on the information I've just summarised.  Do you have any

 8     explanation?

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22351











11  Page 22351 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22352

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             You may proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Sir, you've claimed that you were abducted 11 times.  This is in

14     your statement -- 11 or 12 times, excuse me.  Your statement at

15     paragraph 7 and also at transcript page 22258.  On the same transcript

16     page, you claim that when you were abducted you were threatened every

17     time.

18             You testified that you never threatened to quit your job at the

19     factory.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  And that's at 22283.

21        Q.   In fact, you also testified that the factory's own doctors

22     recommended that you permanently leave the factory on -- excuse me, to go

23     on sick leave.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  And that's at 22290.

25   (redacted)

Page 22353

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22354

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, I have no doubt that you lived through traumatic

14     events during the war.  The Prosecution has no doubt about that.

15     However, your testimony about being an eye-witness to murders, mutilated

16     bodies, it has been inconsistent and incredible in the position of the

17     Prosecution.

18             Now, is it possible that these are not events that you yourself

19     actually witnessed?

20        A.   All I said I said because I witnessed it.  I didn't utter a

21     single word that was not first-hand.  If I -- if there was something that

22     was not observed directly, I specified it to you example by example.  But

23     I will never forget what happened on the 5th of January, 1993, not

24     because of the fact that my arm and leg were broken but because of all

25     the psychological suffer I sustained.  I began having fainting spells.  I

Page 22355

 1     forgot about my arm and leg at the time, forgetting that it hurt, which

 2     is now coming back.  I am paying for that now.  As the Sarajevo

 3     physicians told me:  Well, your injuries had not been treated and now

 4     you're facing those problems.  However, the psychological problems are

 5     there to stay.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.

 8             Before we give you an opportunity to re-examine the witness,

 9     Mr. Ivetic, Judge Fluegge would have a question.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please have Exhibit D509, which is under

11     seal, which should not be broadcast, and I'm referring to paragraph 16.

12     That should be on the screen, please.

13             And I want to read one sentence from your statement, Witness.  In

14     fact, two sentences at the end of paragraph 16.  I think you see it on

15     the screen.  There I read, I quote:

16             "Some pupils carried hand-grenades," and I leave out some words,

17     "in their school bags.  These pupils carried lists with the names and

18     addresses of people at whom they were supposed to throw the hand-grenades

19     that day."

20             Can you explain where that happened?  Where did you see these

21     pupils and when did that happen?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In December 1992, on my way out

23     from the plant where I was working, my colleague was standing there, a

24     Serb who worked there.  He wasn't working on grenades.  He was entrusted

25     on preparations for processing.  He was working with three boys of some

Page 22356

 1     15 or 16 years of age.  I don't know the exact date.  Maybe it was the

 2     2nd or the 3rd of December.  And he said -- I mean, it's evident that he

 3     knew them, whose children they were, they knew their names.  He said,

 4     "Here's the workman who does this," and they were curious.  They stood

 5     around me.  They were asking me questions and showing me that this is

 6     what they had in their bags, that these were casings made of thin tin and

 7     there were 12 grenades in there fixed so that they wouldn't shift.  They

 8     showed me that each one of them had a paper stating where that day or

 9     that evening they were supposed to throw that grenade.  They were

10     carrying the paper with them.  I didn't ask for it.  (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22357











11  Pages 22357-22365 redacted.  Private session.















Page 22366

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             Witness, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to thank

13     you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered

14     all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench,

15     and I wish you a safe return home again.  Before you leave the courtroom,

16     we'll briefly go into closed session and I already announce that we'll

17     immediately also take a break and that we'll resume, and then, I think,

18     in open session for the next witness, we'll resume at 20 minutes past

19     12.00.  You may follow the usher after we have turned into closed

20     session.

21             We turn into closed session.

22                           [Closed session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 22367

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 6     Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, no protective measures?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 9     None.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that sooner or later the report I

11     think Mr. Weber started to give, that we'll hear from that soon?  I

12     didn't want to interrupt at that time the -- the testimony of the witness

13     coming in.

14             MR. GROOME:  Certainly, Your Honour.  And if I -- I think he's

15     already pointed it out, but a Google search of the hotel shows the hotel

16     and the church next to it.  So I think we'll agree on what the exhibit

17     will be and we can tender that sometime next week.  I think there are

18     some other residual matters from that witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's --

20             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.  And Mr. Weber has other duties this

21     afternoon so we were going to meet to go over that at some later point,

22     but we have located, with the name of the church, the physical address.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, no saluting when the witness

Page 22368

 1     comes in.  You should refrain from that and you know it.

 2             Good afternoon, Mr. Andan, I take it.  Before you give evidence,

 3     the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now

 4     handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I solemnly declare

 6     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR ANDAN

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Andan.  Please be seated.

10             Mr. Andan, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

11     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic, and you noticed already that

12     you find him to your left.

13             You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Andan, I would like to ask you to state for

17     the transcript your name and surname exactly.

18        A.   My name is Dragomir Andan.

19        Q.   Will you tell the Court whether at one point in time you gave a

20     statement in writing to Mr. Mladic's Defence?

21        A.   Yes, I gave a statement in writing.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

23     have document 65 ter 1D01602.  Could we please have that in e-court.

24     Also I would like us to take a look at the first page.

25        Q.   Mr. Andan, the information, the personal details on this page,

Page 22369

 1     are these details details that correspond to your own?

 2        A.   Yes, this is accurate.

 3        Q.   And the signature on this page, is it your signature?

 4        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at the

 7     last page of this document.

 8        Q.   Mr. Andan, when preparing for this testimony, did I give you an

 9     opportunity to look at your statement and did I give you this written

10     statement consisting of a total of four pages?

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We still have the first page --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We are still waiting for the B/C/S last page of the

13     document.  There we are.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

15        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to take a look at this statement?  As

16     stated here it has a total of three pages, and also is this your

17     signature?

18        A.   Yes, I've had an opportunity of looking at this statement, and

19     this is my signature and the date is the 8th of May, 2014.

20        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today as I

21     did during proofing and when we were preparing this statement, after

22     having taken the solemn declaration in court today, would your answers be

23     the same as the content of this statement?

24        A.   Yes, it would be identical.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 22370

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 2     have Mr. Andan's statement admitted into evidence.  It is marked

 3     65 ter 1D01602.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I see two redactions in paragraph 12

 5     and the Chamber is not used to receive statements with redactions.  Now,

 6     I can imagine that you want to explain that not in open session, that's

 7     fine, but if we need to go into private session we -- we'd hear from you.

 8     But could you please explain.

 9             Ms. Bibles.

10             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I may be able to assist in this matter.

11     The two redactions -- there is two redactions and yet a third point in

12     that paragraph where the witness's -- where the individual's name is

13     listed in the paragraph, Mr. Zulic.  We have been in touch with Mr. Zulic

14     and he's advised that he would not require protective measures or

15     redactions of the statement.  His name is reflected in the paragraph but

16     somewhat interestingly redacted [overlapping speakers] --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's all fine that you redact statements for the

18     public, but for the Chamber not to know what is redacted is not what I

19     expect.  So this is the public version.  And are you going to upload a

20     version that should be admitted into evidence under seal, Mr. Stojanovic?

21     Then we'll mark this version for identification and once the original

22     version is uploaded, then we'll -- we'll then -- no, this one, of course,

23     is not even marked for identification.  We only need the unredacted one

24     to be -- but we'll wait for you to upload it into the e-court system.  If

25     you would tell us, then we'll decide on admission, but as matters stand

Page 22371

 1     now there is -- the Chamber will admit the full version.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Agreed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  With your leave, I

 5     would like to read out a brief summary of the statement of Mr. Andan.

 6             Witness Dragomir Andan spent most of his professional career in

 7     the police.  When the war broke out, he was senior inspector first class

 8     in the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In June 1992, he was sent to carry out

 9     special tasks in order to deal with paramilitary formations in Brcko,

10     Bijeljina, and Zvornik, which he carried out in co-operation with the

11     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

12             From September 1992, he took a number of duties in the

13     65th Protection Regiment of the Main Staff of the Army of

14     Republika Srpska, where he stayed until September 1993 when he was

15     transferred to the administration for intelligence and security of the

16     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.  He took part in several

17     military actions together with his unit, and he had the opportunity of

18     meeting General Mladic several times and carrying out his direct orders.

19             In his statement he speaks about how a senior police official was

20     taken prisoner in Trnovo and he speaks about the personal attitude of

21     General Mladic towards the status of this prisoner.  As for another event

22     which took place towards the end of 1993, when the VRS took prisoner

23     several members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, at that moment

24     General Mladic showed up in person and personally issued orders to send

25     the POWs to the KP Dom Kula.  And in accordance with rules on how POWs

Page 22372

 1     should be treated, he said that they should be exchanged, which was

 2     indeed done.

 3             The witness confirms that all units of the Main Staff of the Army

 4     of Republika Srpska always had strict orders to treat POWs in accordance

 5     with the Geneva Conventions.  In the many military operations of which he

 6     had the opportunity of being close to General Mladic, he never heard an

 7     order that would have been against the Geneva Conventions, the rules and

 8     customs of war.

 9             Your Honour, I would like to just put a few more questions to the

10     witness with your leave.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Andan, could you please tell the Court when you had the

14     opportunity of meeting General Mladic directly during the war?  When did

15     that happen for the first time?

16        A.   I first saw General Ratko Mladic in July 1992.

17        Q.   Can you tell the Court where this took place?

18        A.   If you allow me, I would like to make a brief introduction, if

19     that would be in line with my testimony in general.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You may answer the questions that

21     Mr. Stojanovic puts to you, and if at the very end you think that an

22     important matter has been missing, then you have an opportunity to

23     correct that.  But please focus on the questions that are put to you and

24     answer them.

25             The question was when -- can you tell the Court where you met him

Page 22373

 1     in July 1992 when you first saw him.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Orie, this question requires a

 3     lengthier answer.  It is within this question.  I will try to be brief.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If you first tell him where you saw him for the

 5     first time in July 1992.  If Mr. Stojanovic has any follow-up questions,

 6     he'll ask them.  But please give an answer to that question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Together with Mico Davidovic, who

 8     worked with me in Bijeljina, and we planned to carry out this operation

 9     in Zvornik, I saw --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No -- Mr. Witness --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- General Mladic at the

12     Main Staff --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The simple question was where.  Not with whom,

14     nothing else.  Where did you see him for the first time?  When for the

15     first time he appeared before your eyes.  Please proceed and answer the

16     question.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first saw him in July 1992 at the

18     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in Han Pijesak.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  And now I'm going to ask you to tell the Court what

21     the reason was.  What was the reason for you to be at the Main Staff of

22     the Army of Republika Srpska?

23        A.   After quite a few operative activities in the municipality of

24     Zvornik and after having collected some intelligence, we came to the

25     conclusion that the paramilitary formation of the Yellow Wasps should be

Page 22374

 1     eliminated.  Our assessment was that the number of personnel that we had

 2     at that point in time, which was minimal, was such that we could not

 3     oppose a well-armed unit consisting of 120 men at the time.  We did not

 4     know whether they belonged to the army, and Mr. Davidovic and I had a

 5     proposal to go to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and to

 6     seek assistance from the intelligence people of the Main Staff of the

 7     Army of Republika Srpska.

 8             Before that, Mr. Davidovic had reached a specific agreement with

 9     Mr. Salapura, and then the two of us went together to the Main Staff of

10     the Army of Republika Srpska to spell out in concrete terms what we had

11     precisely agreed upon before that.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

13     slow down when speaking.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down because otherwise some of

15     your words might be lost and we would like to hear them all.

16             And could you make a small pause, Mr. Stojanovic, before putting

17     the next question.

18             And could you make a little pause when -- before answering the

19     question.

20             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   On that occasion, did you make a plan of activity together with

24     the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska in relation to the

25     disarming of paramilitaries in Zvornik?

Page 22375

 1        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.  We drew up our part of the plan.  In

 2     agreement with representatives of the military security branch, we were

 3     supposed to work together on that plan to see to what extent they would

 4     be participating in that operation.

 5        Q.   Did you meet General Mladic on that occasion in person -- person

 6     on person, and what did you discuss?

 7        A.   Yes.  At some point General Mladic entered the room where we were

 8     discussing our activities.  He greeted us.  And what I remember

 9     particularly was that when he shook our hands, he said, "Welcome to the

10     club of honest men."  Then he sat down and asked the two of us to brief

11     him on the situation in the area that we covered operationally, which was

12     Bijeljina, Zvornik, and Brcko.

13             When we finished our presentation, he said that it was -- our

14     greatest problem all over Republika Srpska was the fight against

15     paramilitary formations and that we are unable to stabilise our

16     confrontation line with the enemy until we have dealt with our

17     paramilitary formations whose basic and only goal was to plunder and

18     expel innocent Muslim civilians from the municipalities controlled by the

19     Serb authorities.

20        Q.   Please allow me to interject and put a question, for the record

21     as well.  With the exception of General Mladic, General Davidovic, and

22     yourself, were there any other military personnel there?

23        A.   Yes, Colonel Salapura was there and the then

24     Colonel Zdravko Tolimir.

25        Q.   Did General Mladic tell you anything else on that occasion?

Page 22376

 1        A.   He did say something that stayed with me for the rest of the war.

 2     He turned to the two of us and he said -- let me try to quote him

 3     exactly, he said that this was the most difficult war after the

 4     Second World War because of its nature and goals.  He said that it was --

 5     the most difficult the thing to do is to wage war against an enemy who

 6     speaks the same language and that it was a kind of civil war.  He also

 7     said that what we needed to know was that we were not alone in that war.

 8             We all stopped for a few moments and then he continued.  He said,

 9     "You must be aware that the entire world is following what we are doing

10     here.  You have to bear in mind that all people in your territory who are

11     of Muslim or Croat ethnicity and who have not transgressed against the

12     Serbian people must be protected.  You need to bear in mind the

13     Geneva Conventions and that it is also applied by everyone in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina and those monitoring the developments there."

15        Q.   Thank you.  I paused for the record.  Given your professional

16     career and your warpath, I wanted to ask you this:  During the war, did

17     you have occasion to see whether General Mladic abided by his words at

18     any time?

19        A.   I believe I mentioned that in my statement.  On several occasions

20     I know he asked that the prisoners be put on a list, handed over to the

21     military police, placed in gaol, and then exchanged for the same number

22     of people of Serb ethnicity held by the Muslim side.

23        Q.   Thank you.  While you were engaged on intelligence tasks in the

24     area of Sarajevo, did you have specific tasks received from

25     General Mladic at any point in time concerning certain people?

Page 22377

 1        A.   Yes.  It is something I will remember for the rest of my life.

 2     In 1995, maybe 15, 20, or 30 days after the signing of the

 3     Dayton Accords, I received information from my operatives to the extent

 4     that in Grbavica, which was an area covered by the VRS, that

 5     Christiane Amanpour was there, the CNN journalist, with her crew,

 6     interviewing military personnel and civilians there.  I informed the

 7     assistant commander for intelligence and security in the SRK,

 8     Mr. Marko Lugonja, of that.  I told him that there was a person of that

 9     profile in Grbavica.

10             Quarter of an hour later Marko called me and, to use military

11     parlance, he said that the boss ordered, and there he meant

12     General Mladic, that I go down to Grbavica immediately in order to

13     provide a secure environment for Ms. Amanpour, as he said, not a hair on

14     her head was to be touched and she must leave Grbavica safely.

15             My office was some 500 metres away from the centre of Grbavica,

16     where she was.  I left with several soldiers and I saw that some

17     suspicious people were creating a circle around Ms. Amanpour.  To be

18     completely honest, Slavko Aleksic's Chetniks were the most active in that

19     and they started insulting verbally --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, although I've allowed it to continue

22     for some time, all of this is new material which was not noticed to the

23     Prosecution at any point.  I would object --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I wouldn't say all of it but --

25             MS. BIBLES:  Almost all of it.  The statement, the meeting with

Page 22378

 1     Mladic in July of 1992, what Mladic had to say to the witness in 1992 --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, Ms. Bibles objects against going

 3     beyond what is presented in the statement.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is part of

 5     item 8 of this witness's statement, but now the witness is being more

 6     specific as to the topic he discussed there in terms of what tasks he was

 7     engaged in while being a part of the Main Staff of the VRS.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you interpret paragraph 8 in this way,

 9     Mr. Stojanovic, there is no limit whatsoever to your examination.

10     Certainly, I did not feel that a protection after the Dayton Agreement of

11     journalists traveling around was an issue which is covered by

12     paragraph 8.  It's so vague that it doesn't even say within the war.

13             Would you please focus on the most relevant issues and preferably

14     closely linked to what we find in the statement.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall do so, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Witness, what year was that specifically?

18        A.   1995.

19        Q.   Let me conclude this topic.  Did you indeed carry out

20     General Mladic's order as regards Ms. Amanpour?

21        A.   Yes, I let her out of that group, provided her with a brief

22     interview, and she safely went to the federation part of Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we next see

25     P3802.  Page 1 first.

Page 22379

 1        Q.   Sir, it is a report drafted by the Main Staff of the VRS.  The

 2     date is the 28th of July, 1992.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Next, can we have the last page

 4     in both versions, where reference is made to an analysis of paramilitary

 5     formations in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The document was signed by the chief

 6     of the intelligence and security administration of the VRS Main Staff,

 7     Zdravko Tolimir.

 8        Q.   It reads:

 9             "The presence and activity of paramilitary formations negatively

10     affect the Serbian people in two ways:  (1) by diminishing trust in the

11     government and its capacity to deal with war profiteers, criminals, and

12     mass murderers; and (2), by immensely discouraging the fighting elan of

13     SRBH Army members, often resulting in the abandonment of positions."

14             In conclusion, the document reads:

15             "Every armed Serb in SRBH must be placed under the exclusive

16     command of the SRBH Army, or else he should be disarmed and legal

17     measures taken."

18             My question is this:  Throughout the years of war and your

19     efforts to deal with paramilitary formations, was this the position of

20     the Main Staff of the VRS as specified in 1992?  Was it seen through

21     until the end of the war?

22        A.   Yes, it was in place until the end of the war in 1995.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andan.  I conclude my questions and I hand you

24     over to the Prosecution.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 22380

 1             Ms. Bibles, are you ready?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Andan, you'll now be cross-examined by

 4     Ms. Bibles.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Bibles is counsel for

 5     the Prosecution.

 6             You may proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Andan.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Mr. Andan, this is your third time testifying at ICTY.  As I

12     understand it, you testified for seven days during 2011 in the case of

13     Stanisic/Zupljanin.  And then when you testified in the Karadzic case,

14     were you aware that much of your Stanisic/Zupljanin was used as your

15     substantive testimony there?

16        A.   Yes, I was notified.

17        Q.   And today, as you understand it, your substantive testimony is

18     the 20-paragraph statement that you've signed for the Mladic Defence?

19        A.   Yes, that is the case.

20        Q.   I noticed that you do not appear to have a copy of that statement

21     with you.  Would you like to have a copy as you're cross-examined?  We

22     can provide one.

23        A.   Please do.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if we could have the usher's

25     assistance.

Page 22381

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's a clean copy, I take it --

 2             MS. BIBLES:  It is, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in -- in B/C/S.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  In B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, do you want to see it?  You may give

 6     it to the witness.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   Mr. Andan, because your experience, knowledge, in previous

 9     testimony covers additional details relevant to this case not fully

10     captured in this statement, I'll be asking in a focused manner some of

11     the additional details behind the 20 paragraphs.  I have some questions

12     first regarding your personal knowledge of Serbs setting up barricades in

13     Sarajevo in March of 1992.  You've previously testified that you weren't

14     personally involved but that you were called in to two different events

15     in which Serbs were involved in setting up barricades.  Do you stand by

16     that evidence today?

17        A.   Please be more specific.

18        Q.   You previously testified in Stanisic/Zupljanin, the transcript

19     reference would be 21586, lines 6 through 20:

20             "I cannot speak about things I haven't had personal involvement

21     in, but there were two events when we were called up to come to the MUP

22     and we learned that night that the Serbs were setting up barricades, that

23     they wanted to separate Sarajevo or divide it into two parts.  And the

24     second event was when I went with Mr. Music, my colleague, to his house,

25     where I saw a lot of armed men, but at that point in time and not even

Page 22382

 1     later, I have to say, did I realise that they were actually erecting

 2     barricades.  I did see armed men.  They were leaving their homes with

 3     long-barreled weapons.  But at that point in time I wasn't aware that

 4     they were setting up barricades."

 5             Do you stand by that testimony?

 6        A.   I can confirm most of that testimony.  I think in the latter part

 7     it didn't concern the setting up of barricades, when I went there with

 8     Mr. Music.  As for the initial part, I decidedly said that as the senior

 9     inspector first class and a member of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

10     during the night we were called by the operations duty officer - and when

11     I say "we," all of us active-duty inspectors - to come to the republican

12     MUP.  After a while, they told us that Serbs were erecting barricades in

13     Vrbanja Most and in the direction of Pofalici.  They also told us that we

14     should be on the ready, those of us in the republican MUP.  That is what

15     I said and that is what I stand by.

16             It is same event, Madam Prosecutor, because while waiting,

17     although we were not addressed by any superiors, Mr. Teufik Music and

18     myself set out at around 5 a.m. towards Bascarsija.  He hails from there,

19     and I was the chief of police there for four years.  We went there to buy

20     some bread so that we have something to eat.  Then Teufik asked me to

21     accompany him to Vratnik, which is in Stari Grad municipality,

22     immediately next to Bascarsija.  Then I saw those armed men leaving

23     homes.  They were Muslim.

24             Previously, when we reached the city council building, we were

25     stopped by a group of reserve policemen --

Page 22383

 1        Q.   Mr. Andan, I will ask you to be as focused as possible.  I'll try

 2     to ask very focused questions to make that easier for you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, before we continue.

 4             Witness, you said in the beginning of your last answer:

 5             "I can confirm most of that testimony.  As for the rest of it, I

 6     respectively said that as the senior" -- and let me just see.  Yes.  "I

 7     think in the latter part it didn't concern the setting up of barricades,

 8     when I went there with Mr. Music."

 9             Now, do you say:  I didn't say this about the barricades when I

10     testified, in which case we'll just verify the words you have spoken.  Or

11     do you say:  What I said at that time was unclear or not accurate or --

12     and you are changing it?  Which of the two?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood the Prosecutor as

14     saying that there were two types of barricades.  I'm not disputing that

15     Serbs set up barricades at the time.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The only thing Madam Prosecutor did was to quote,

17     literally, what is recorded as your previous testimony.  Now if you say:

18     "As for the rest of it" -- no, no -- yes, "I respectively said that as

19     the senior inspector" -- no, let me see.  "I think in the latter part it

20     didn't concern the setting up of barricades ..."

21             Do you want to say:  That's not what I said, as you read it to

22     me?  Or do you say:  That's what I said but it was different?  Which of

23     the two?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that because that

25     evening Muslims did not put up barricades.  The Serbs put up barricades.

Page 22384

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you said it or not, you're saying the record

 2     of what you said in that other case is wrong.  We'll then verify that,

 3     because the audio files are still existing and we'll just verify on the

 4     audio whether that is what you said or that you didn't say it.  So

 5     therefore you say what Ms. Bibles read to you, and she reads from the

 6     official record, is not accurate, it doesn't reflect what I said.  Do you

 7     understand your testimony well?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I'm going back to the second

 9     part.  The first part that the Prosecutor --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- read is all right.  As for the

12     other part --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, it's a simple question.  What Ms. Bibles

14     read, do you challenge or do you dispute that that's what you said or do

15     you say:  No, that's what I said but it's -- I should clarify or change

16     or whatever, it's not accurate.  Which of the two?  Did you -- what was

17     read to you, did you say it in court at that time?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say it like that.

19             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's clarify it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll verify what you said and how you said it and

22     we might -- Ms. Bibles, you're invited to, with the assistance of -- I

23     never know whether it's CMSS or the -- but to find the audio of that

24     portion of the evidence so that it can be played to the witness.  Please

25     proceed.

Page 22385

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Andan, would you agree of these individuals who were setting

 3     up barricades on the Serb side, that Momcilo Mandic was one of these

 4     individuals?

 5        A.   I would agree, yes.

 6        Q.   Would you agree that you have personal knowledge of his

 7     involvement in setting up barricades on the Serb side?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you confirm that Mandic was with the police at that point in

10     time?

11        A.   Yes, he was assistant minister for crime.

12        Q.   I next want to ask you about your reaction to the 31st March 1992

13     order that was sent out by Mandic setting up the creation of the Serbian

14     police.

15             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, I won't pull it up but this is in

16     evidence as P3009.

17        Q.   Mr. Andan, you took this order from Mandic to a Sarajevo

18     television station.  Can you tell us, as briefly as possible, why?

19        A.   I think that the translation was not correct.  The order was last

20     issued by Mladic, as it was translated to me in the first sentence.  But

21     the order -- or, actually, the dispatch was signed by Mr. Mandic.

22             It is correct that I took the dispatch and took it to a

23     journalist from Radio Television Bosnia-Herzegovina as an expression of

24     revolt in relation to an order like that and the breakup of the integrity

25     of the Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP.  And it's correct that I did give that

Page 22386

 1     dispatch to the reporter.

 2        Q.   And it's true that you were opposed to dividing the police based

 3     on ethnicity?

 4        A.   Correct, yes, especially in view of the fact who were supposed to

 5     be the future leading figures of the police who wouldn't even know how to

 6     be at the head of the police service properly.

 7        Q.   And do I understand correctly that you refused initially in April

 8     and May to join the Serbian police?

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   Can you confirm that you were both encouraged by some and

11     threatened by others about your decision in April and May of 1992?

12        A.   It depends on the point of view.  I was in the part of the

13     Sarajevo that was still undivided.  A number of my Muslim colleagues

14     encouraged me and a number of Serbs with -- actually, about whom I tried

15     to see who they were, where they stand, during the night they threatened

16     me a couple of times and said that I should declare myself to be on the

17     Serbian side.  And because if I did not, something nasty would happen to

18     me and they wouldn't be able to help me there.

19        Q.   Without going into further details, did you eventually join the

20     Serbian police by the 1st of June, 1992?

21        A.   I did, yes.  I don't know the precise date but I did join the

22     police, yes.

23        Q.   When the Serbian MUP was formed, is it correct that -- well, the

24     minister of the interior was Mico Stanisic.  Was his deputy initially

25     Momcilo Mandic?

Page 22387

 1        A.   I think so, yes.

 2        Q.   As an inspector in the Serbian MUP, did you have a chain of

 3     command that culminated in Mico Stanisic?

 4        A.   Yes, that's the hierarchical chain where the minister is the

 5     number one person of the MUP.

 6        Q.   And in finishing this topic, I just want to ask whether the

 7     Serbian MUP had the authority, the legal authority to arrest active-duty

 8     VRS personnel?

 9        A.   Look, they could not arrest them from a formal legal aspect, but

10     we did receive permission from the Main Staff that all those involved in

11     illicit activities, regardless of whether they were soldiers or officers

12     of the Army of Republika Srpska, were to be arrested and handed over to

13     the police.

14        Q.   We'll discuss some of those details later in your testimony.

15     Next I would like to turn to some questions about your time in Brcko and

16     Bijeljina from June to September of 1992.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you are encouraged to show at least,

18     even if you do not go into the details of a document, to at least -- in

19     this case it was P3009, but to have it on the screen so that the Judges

20     can at least read, even if you do not work on it in detail.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I appreciate the advice in

22     that regard and I'll do so.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MS. BIBLES:

25        Q.   In paragraph 5 of your statement, you describe being sent to

Page 22388

 1     Brcko due to "problems that piled up in the presence of paramilitary

 2     formation."

 3             You were assigned to go to Brcko as an inspector.  How long were

 4     you actually in Brcko as an inspector?

 5        A.   Two weeks at the most from what I can remember.  Possibly three,

 6     but it was definitely not longer than three.

 7        Q.   You may not recall the exact date but did you arrive some time in

 8     early June 1992?

 9        A.   I have a problem with dates.  Please, don't take it ill.  But I

10     think it was in June.  I'm not sure.  I don't think that it was in early

11     June.  I think it was probably in the second half of June, but please,

12     I -- don't ask me to give you the precise dates.

13        Q.   Whichever date it was, could you tell us whether law and order

14     was present in Brcko when you arrived and -- and functioning in Brcko?

15        A.   Absolutely not.

16        Q.   Would you agree that there were no Muslim or Croat police

17     officers remaining in Brcko when you arrived?

18        A.   Yes, that's true.  There were none left.

19        Q.   Is it true that the issue of looting and plunder committed by the

20     paramilitaries was a major concern in Brcko when you arrived?

21        A.   Yes, that is correct, and that is the reason why I was sent to

22     Brcko.

23        Q.   And is it true that Brcko is a rich area that has a port that

24     brings items into the area, which is what enticed criminals to come loot

25     and steal property in the Brcko area?

Page 22389

 1        A.   Brcko was one of the most developed municipalities in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war, one of the richest municipalities, and

 3     that was the reason why paramilitary formations from all around the

 4     country first wanted to go to Brcko.

 5        Q.   Is it true that you basically stayed and lived inside the public

 6     security station during your time in Brcko?

 7        A.   Yes, I slept on the floor above the duty operations room in a

 8     room that had just improvised facilities.

 9        Q.   Would you agree that this was in part because Brcko was a

10     dangerous place to be?

11        A.   It was a very dangerous place indeed.

12        Q.   Is it fair to say that your assignment in Brcko was to make

13     observations about the situation and form recommendations as to how to

14     make the police function?

15        A.   Yes.  It's in my job description, instructional monitoring, where

16     I would observe the situation and propose measures in order to deal with

17     the situation found on the ground.

18        Q.   Without going into details, at the end of your time there you

19     made recommendations like imposing curfews, setting up check-points, and

20     restoring manpower to the police?

21        A.   Yes, it was difficult work but what we did, what was of key

22     importance for the town of Brcko at the time, was that we managed to

23     bring back policemen who were at the front lines through the military

24     department.  We introduced curfew, divided the area into sections, set up

25     check-points.  And I think except for the segment of when paramilitaries

Page 22390

 1     entered the police station and took driver's licences and so on, we

 2     managed to prevent that --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down

 4     and repeat the last part of his answer.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   Mr. Andan --

 7             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are again invited to slow down your speed

 9     of speech and could you repeat the last part of your answer.  What we

10     have on the record now is:

11             "... and so on, we managed to prevent that ..."

12             And what did you say after those words?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the problem was that

14     the paramilitary formations would enter the Brcko police station where

15     they would take different documents, driver's licences, licence plates,

16     and we prevented that by forbidding them to enter.  We had a very serious

17     clash with those paramilitary formations at that time, and then after

18     that, the security situation began to function in the Brcko area up to

19     the point that we had things under control there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not a literal repetition of what you said

21     because it's five times as long as the words you spoke, but we leave it

22     to that.

23             Ms. Bibles, I'm just wondering.  We could take a break now.  We

24     could also take a break after the full hour, which would be in five

25     minutes.  I leave it to you where to find a suitable moment for a break.

Page 22391

 1             MS. BIBLES:  I think five more minutes might work, Your Honour,

 2     if that's fine.  I look over to the other side and they don't seem to

 3     oppose.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we continue for another five minutes and

 5     then take a break.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   Mr. Andan, did you consult with the VRS military about many of

 9     these areas that you've just described at length?

10        A.   If you're thinking of Brcko specifically, we did have several

11     meetings there.  I had several meetings there with officers of the

12     Army of Republika Srpska.  If you're thinking in general, then there were

13     agreements at a higher level about the presence of paramilitary

14     formations in the area of Brcko, Bijeljina, and Zvornik.

15        Q.   I just want to confirm that as a police -- an individual

16     representing the police, that you had a co-operative relationship with

17     the local VRS military.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In Brcko, did you hear about an individual by the name of

20     Goran Jelisic, who is also known as Adolf?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Were you told that he murdered dozens of Muslim citizens in

23     Brcko?

24        A.   No, I wasn't told that, but I found out about it later.

25        Q.   Did you find out later that he committed these offences near the

Page 22392

 1     police station while wearing a police uniform?

 2        A.   I did learn that later, yes.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, this may be a good time to take that

 4     break.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness first be escorted out of the

 6     courtroom.

 7             We take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you back,

 8     Mr. Andan.

 9             Meanwhile, I use the opportunity to --

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- deal with 1D1602a, being the unredacted statement

12     of the witness as uploaded now.

13             Madam Registrar, that document would receive number?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1602a receives number D512,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And D512 is admitted into evidence.

17             We take a break and will resume at quarter to 2.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.45 p.m.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

22             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Mr. Andan, going back to your time in June 1992 in Brcko, you've

24     previously testified that you were aware that Muslim civilians were being

25     taken and held in Luka camp.  Do you stand by that previous testimony?

Page 22393

 1        A.   Yes, but it was later on that I found out about that stay.  I

 2     mean, it was after that that I found out that they had been held in Luka.

 3        Q.   When you later found out, was it also your understanding that the

 4     VRS had control over Luka camp?

 5        A.   Yes, because - how do I put this? - this camp -- this -- actually

 6     not a single camp, not a single collection centre, if I were to call them

 7     that, was under MUP control at the time.

 8        Q.   While you were consulting with the local VRS authorities about

 9     curfews and that sort of thing, did you meet a VRS officer named Sehovac?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just intervene.  At page 75, line 20,

13     Madam Bibles, you asked:

14             "When you later found out, was it also your understanding that

15     the VRS had control over Luka camp?"

16             The answer says:

17             "Yes, because - how do I put it ..."

18             And then he says it was under the control of the MUP.  Now, yes,

19     under the control of the VRS and then under control of the MUP?  I'm not

20     quite sure what is the answer.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour, I believe that may be an

22     error in the transcript.  I'll go back to that.

23        Q.   Mr. Andan, in reading the transcript, it appears that you

24     testified that -- wait, "not a single camp, not a single collection

25     centre, if I were to call them that, was under MUP control."  Could you

Page 22394

 1     clarify for us who had control of those types of centres at this point in

 2     time in June of 1992?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Was it the VRS or the MUP?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You will allow me.  We received

 5     this question from the Ministry of the Interior to respond what it was

 6     that the ministry had under their control in the month of June.  We, or,

 7     rather, I personally sent that dispatch to the commander of the

 8     Eastern Bosnia Corps and I said that the MUP is not holding a single camp

 9     under its control and that they should respond to that.  And when I

10     testified for Mr. Stanisic and Karadzic, I said that as well.

11             MS. BIBLES:

12        Q.   So to make sure that we understand, the reason that you sent that

13     dispatch to the Eastern Bosnia Corps was that that camp was under VRS

14     control?

15        A.   Globally, yes.

16        Q.   Would that also be true for the camps within the confines of the

17     Eastern Bosnia Corps?

18        A.   Well, I don't know about all, but I claim unambiguously that camp

19     Batkovic was under the control of the army.

20        Q.   All right.  Going back to a question you answered before, were

21     you aware that Sehovac was the chief of staff of the brigade?

22        A.   Yes, that's how I met him.  At the Brcko barracks.

23        Q.   Were you aware that he ordered a Muslim prisoner killed at a fire

24     station in Brcko?

25        A.   No, I didn't know that.

Page 22395

 1        Q.   Mr. Andan, when we look at paragraph 6 of your statement, you

 2     describe in reference to your departure, it appears your departure from

 3     Brcko:

 4             "After the situation, the police station had been stabilised."

 5             Now to make sure that we understand this statement in context,

 6     you don't mean at that point where you left Brcko that it was now safe

 7     for Muslims and Croats, do you?

 8        A.   At that moment while I was there, I can say that, yes, no one

 9     persecuted them anymore.  They were not brought in.  Their apartments

10     were not looted.  They were not being expelled.  As for that period, was

11     it two weeks, was it three weeks, I claim that they were safe.

12        Q.   Did you mean that the paramilitaries were under control when you

13     left Brcko in June of 1992?

14        A.   Members of the paramilitary formations were placed under control

15     in this period of three weeks, if I can put it that way, for as long as I

16     was in Brcko.  After that, there was another escalation and certain --

17     certain unlawful things were done by the paramilitary formations and then

18     we came to intervene yet again in Brcko.

19        Q.   You would agree that -- perhaps you wouldn't, but you would agree

20     that the paramilitaries that went on to be active in Brcko after that

21     time were the Red Berets and Arkan's Men?

22        A.   Yes, yes.  More of them were the Red Berets of Captain Dragan and

23     less were the men that belonged to Arkan.

24        Q.   Following your time in Brcko, you were directed to go to

25     Bijeljina.  Can you tell us what your position was there?

Page 22396

 1        A.   Again, don't hold me to the dates, but I know that I was called

 2     by Mr. Cedo Kljajic, the undersecretary for public security, he asked me

 3     to come into Brcko -- no, sorry, Bijeljina.  Bijeljina.  When I arrived

 4     in Bijeljina, I saw Mr. Kljajic and then I met Mr. Davidovic.  Even then

 5     I was a senior inspector first class of the MUP of Republika Srpska, and

 6     further on, I was promoted to acting chief of the security services

 7     centre in Bijeljina.

 8        Q.   Did you work with Mr. Davidovic during your time in Bijeljina?

 9        A.   Yes, we were part of a team that, let me put it this way, perhaps

10     I'm showing off a bit now, but we very successfully carried out our

11     missions on the ground and we improved the situation in the municipality

12     of Bijeljina.

13        Q.   And to make -- put this into context, this was after the

14     April 1992 ethnic cleansing of Bijeljina?

15        A.   Yes.  I came to Bijeljina in July 1992, and then, together with

16     Davidovic, I created a joint team to struggle against paramilitaries,

17     crime, against the expulsion of Muslims, and against ethnic cleansing.

18        Q.   Can you confirm, though, that the population, and I believe the

19     quote previously used, "the population did move out" of Bijeljina prior

20     to your arrival?

21        A.   I can confirm that a significant part of the population had moved

22     out.  At that moment when Mr. Davidovic and I started working together,

23     there were some Muslim families that were still living in Bijeljina

24     because the villages around Bijeljina are Serb villages, with the

25     exception of Janja.

Page 22397

 1        Q.   In fact, could you clarify or confirm that you and your family

 2     were provided a Bosniak house in which to live while you were living in

 3     Bijeljina?

 4        A.   Yes, the commission of the municipality of Bijeljina allocated

 5     that house to me.  It was the house of some Bosniak who did not live

 6     there.  He lived and worked abroad and the house was empty.

 7        Q.   And you testified a few minutes ago about Batkovic camp under the

 8     VRS control.  That was located in Bijeljina?

 9        A.   Yes, on the outskirts of Bijeljina, towards the Sava River.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one clarifying question.

11             You said:

12             "It was the house of some Bosniak who did not live there.  He

13     lived and worked abroad and the house was empty."

14             Now, did the owner live abroad or did the whole of his family

15     live abroad, to your knowledge?  If you know.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His entire family lived in Germany,

17     and he built the house probably with the plan of returning to Bijeljina

18     someday.  It was not an empty house all together.  There was furniture.

19     It was a fully furnished house.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but it was not that, for example, parts of his

21     family had lived there up until the beginning of the war and had then

22     moved out?  Because if there is furniture, you wonder who used that

23     furniture.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The owner used it when he came on

25     vacation.  I think vacation periods were the only times he used the

Page 22398

 1     house.  As for his immediate family, unless I'm mistaken, there were no

 2     immediate family members of his in the house.  His wife, himself, and

 3     their children used the house when they came on vacation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That therefore means that the children were living

 5     in Germany as well, not going to school in Bijeljina but steadily living,

 6     apart from holidays, in Germany.  Is that how I have to understand your

 7     testimony?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Amir Fidahic, my neighbour, told me

 9     so.  He was there throughout the war and he told me where the family was.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have no personal knowledge about it apart

11     from what you heard from your neighbour?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

14             MS. BIBLES:  That's actually the next area of questioning I

15     wanted to go into.

16        Q.   Your neighbour, Avdo Vidovic, is that the one you're talking

17     about?

18        A.   No, Amir Fidahic.  Anto Vidovic is a Croat and I managed to get

19     him out of Batkovic camp.

20        Q.   No, let's talk about Mr. Vidovic then.  He was a Croat who -- did

21     you know him prior to coming to Bijeljina?

22        A.   Yes.  He was a neighbour of mine in Sarajevo, in the settlement

23     of Stup, where I grew up.  We began playing football together and he left

24     Sarajevo for Brcko to play there.  That's how we met after nearly

25     30 years again.

Page 22399

 1        Q.   Would you agree that he was not a criminal?

 2        A.   Absolutely not.  He was not.

 3        Q.   When did you learn that he was being held at Batkovic?

 4        A.   I think Mr. Davidovic and I began preparing again to deal once

 5     and for all with paramilitary formations, especially the Red Berets in

 6     Brcko.  We had a discussion with the chief of police, the head of police,

 7     and the head of the crime department.  I asked the head of the crime

 8     department, then, whether he knew of Anto Vidovic's whereabouts.  The

 9     head of the crime department goes -- his last name is Gavrilovic.  He

10     just shrugged his shoulders and he told me that he was in Batkovic camp.

11     I asked him whether there are any grounds to suspect his activity save

12     for the fact that he was a Croat.  He said that they had nothing to that

13     effect.  They even said that his wife is Serbian and that they are not

14     aware of any reason as to why he was taken to the camp.

15        Q.   Is it true that you believe that he was being held simply because

16     he was a Croat?

17        A.   There were no other arguments.  He had not committed any crime,

18     he was not a criminal, he was a prominent athlete in the town.  I

19     couldn't find any other reason or explanation at the time.

20        Q.   Did you act to get him released?

21        A.   Yes.  Since we co-operated well with the SRK commander, to put it

22     in military terms, we attended briefings basically every evening in the

23     RSK.  I asked personally the then commander, Colonel Ilic, to release

24     him.  I explained the situation, asking that the man be released.

25             Perhaps a day or two later, while I was in the field, it was late

Page 22400

 1     in the evening when I was informed that a certain man was waiting for me

 2     in the Bijeljina police station and that he has been there the whole day.

 3     When I arrived, I entered a room holding equipment for the police, and

 4     there I saw Anto Vidovic sleeping on a bench.  I took him to the house

 5     where I stayed, and since it was curfew, it was very risky to take him to

 6     Brcko.  That's why he spent the night at my house.

 7             The next day I put him in my car, went to the Brcko police

 8     station, and told them that they were accountable for his life and

 9     safety.  I told them he was a good car mechanic and that they should use

10     him to that end because many vehicles broke down.  That is how

11     Mr. Vidovic survived the war, and after the war he went to America.

12        Q.   Did you in these meetings that you had with the military

13     officials -- and I believe you said you had them every day?  Just to

14     clarify that.

15        A.   Evenings.

16        Q.   Did you ever hear at one of those meetings that a specific person

17     be taken from the community into Batkovic at those meetings?

18        A.   No, I never heard anything of the sort.

19        Q.   Now moving on to talk about paragraph 6 with respect to the

20     Yellow Wasps.  In that paragraph you describe the struggle - I believe

21     the word is "struggle" - against the Yellow Wasps.  Your quote is:

22             "Working together in co-operation with the VRS Main Staff with

23     representatives of the VRS and military intelligence service, we

24     participated in the joint planning and execution of an operation to

25     arrest the Yellow Wasps, take them into MUP custody, and hand them over

Page 22401

 1     to the prosecutor's office in Bijeljina."

 2             And I'll just pause.  I just saw you looking up.  Did you have a

 3     concern?

 4        A.   No, no concern.  I was just trying to see what time it was, if I

 5     may.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We are close to the conclusion of this day, Witness,

 7     but you have to stay for another seven minutes.  Today, my colleague

 8     adds.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not a problem.

10             MS. BIBLES:

11        Q.   And is it true that the Yellow Wasps were in Zvornik?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Was this also a more prosperous municipality in the region?

14        A.   One of the more prosperous municipalities.  One could say so.

15        Q.   And I believe you've already testified but I want to make sure

16     that you said your work against the paramilitaries was focused on crimes

17     of looting and plunder; is that accurate?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   And you previously testified that in this area:

20             "I believe that these were the most serious crimes at the time."

21             In reference to [Microphone not activated] -- is that true?

22        A.   It is.

23        Q.   And in that same line, you've previously testified in answer to a

24     question about the ethnicity of victims of the Yellow Wasps:

25             "Most of them were Muslims.  But in the course of this bestial

Page 22402

 1     conduct, once they ran out of Muslim houses, they switched to robbing

 2     Serb houses."

 3             Do you stand by that testimony today?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   And following this thought, isn't it true that the commission of

 6     offences against -- it was the commission of offences against Serbs that

 7     accelerated the process of arresting the Yellow Wasps?

 8        A.   Well, one couldn't say so.  There was much information indicating

 9     that they were destabilising the combat readiness of the army from

10     Zvornik municipality and that the separation line or the line facing the

11     Muslim side was weakened precisely because they created a sense of

12     unease, and by looting, they created such a situation where people didn't

13     feel safe even at the front lines.

14        Q.   So just to make sure -- to bring some clarity to this.  So

15     this -- did this mean that the VRS soldiers at the front line were uneasy

16     because of the presence of the Yellow Wasps?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So the Yellow Wasps were undermining the war effort on -- they

19     were undermining the VRS efforts for the war?

20        A.   Yes.  And not only the Yellow Wasps but all other paramilitary

21     formations present in Republika Srpska.  However, the Yellow Wasps were

22     the most pronounced.  If I may, at some point they wanted to change the

23     name of Zvornik and call it Zucin Grad.  That is how impertinent, how

24     brazen they were.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to be clear, is it because of this uneasiness

Page 22403

 1     of the VRS soldiers on the front line that was the overarching reason for

 2     eliminating them?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It didn't concern only the soldiers

 4     but all citizens present in Zvornik at the time.  Everyone felt uneasy.

 5     At that point in time there were still quite a few Muslims living in

 6     houses in Zvornik.  That was the main reason.  Families were feeling this

 7     sense of unease, the Muslims families in particular, and then we had the

 8     soldiers in the front line thinking:  Here I am fighting the enemy and

 9     someone behind my back is placing my family at risk.  That is why their

10     morale dropped.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

12             MS. BIBLES:

13        Q.   Is it correct that the situation with the Yellow Wasps became

14     more serious when they seized -- when they stopped and harassed

15     Velibor Ostojic?

16        A.   I explained that in my previous testimony.  We were already in

17     the final stages of implementing that operation.  It was just a matter of

18     days when we would get the green light to do that.  Perhaps a day or two

19     before we began, the incident with Mr. Velibor Ostojic happened.  Some

20     Rade Tanaskovic and his paramilitaries forced him to crawl and chew grass

21     at a check-point.

22        Q.   Mr. Andan, I believe it's time.  The seven minutes are now up.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one additional question.  Could you

24     tell us, you said one or two days before the operation started.  Could

25     you -- when did that operation start?  Do you remember a date?

Page 22404

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date.  I

 2     know that it was in the second half of July.  I'm quite certain.  I don't

 3     know the date.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was that when many or most of the Muslims had

 5     already left Zvornik?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, when we concluded the

 7     operation against the Yellow Wasps -- well, there is a document in

 8     existence ordering the Zvornik police station to have the property seized

 9     back from the Yellow Wasps to be returned to the Muslim owners in town.

10     So there were --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't my question.  My question was whether by

12     the beginning of that operation many or most of the Muslims had already

13     left Zvornik.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A large number of Muslims had left.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Andan, we'll adjourn for the day.  And

16     since we have a long weekend, we'll only resume on Tuesday, not on

17     Monday.  But before you leave the courtroom, I want to instruct you that

18     you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about

19     your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or testimony

20     still to be given after the weekend because we'd like to see you back

21     Tuesday morning, 9.30 in the morning.  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume Tuesday, the

24     10th of June, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

Page 22405

 1                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day

 2                           of June, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.