Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23798

 1                           Thursday, 10 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             There was -- there are two preliminaries.  Mr. Lukic,

12     I understand that you would like to spend 50 minutes on Mr. Kecmanovic.

13     That request is granted.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Just briefly, Mr. President, and good morning.

16     Your Honours, for the second time this week we received an updated

17     exhibit list for a witness the morning he was scheduled to testify.

18     Yesterday morning now.  In this case, the additional document that was

19     added is 62 pages long in the B/C/S, 77 in the English, and it appears

20     the final page in the B/C/S may be missing from the English.  And I would

21     just ask, as I did on Monday, for an explanation why we received such

22     late notice that the document would be used with this witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us the additional document, what is

24     it approximately?

25             MR. TRALDI:  It's the Islamic Declaration and the 65 ter is

Page 23799

 1     1D00172.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any explanation, Mr. Lukic?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic, not now, not during

 5     the rest of the day.  Never.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  This document is uploaded into the system as 1D172.

 7     I think it's been there for a long time.  And only actually in the

 8     preparation with this witness I realised that I should speak about this

 9     document with the witness, since he was present in Sarajevo with

10     Alija Izetbegovic for a long time and I think that he can give us an

11     insight.  And if the Prosecution needs more time we have no objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that you need it, but could

13     have been foreseen.

14             Mr. Traldi, the document may not be entirely new to the

15     Prosecution.  Is that true?

16             MR. TRALDI:  That's right.  It's not entirely new to the

17     Prosecution.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll proceed and allow Mr. Lukic to

19     refer to the document, but it's clearly put on the record now that you

20     object against this late -- not late disclosure but at least late notice

21     of this document to be used.

22             MR. TRALDI:  That's right, Mr. President, and to the pattern of

23     it that may be developing.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  If I may just to add one thing.  We had numerous

Page 23800

 1     times that the Prosecution changed their list a day before the testimony.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps that's the reason why we are so relatively

 3     relaxed about it, Mr. Lukic --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- also knowing that it is not something that was

 6     totally unknown to the Prosecution.

 7             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.  Meanwhile,

 8     I use the time to put the following on the record.

 9             Pursuant to the Prosecution's responses to the Defence

10     Rule 92 ter motions for Milutin Vukicic dated the 1st of July and

11     Milan Pejic dated the 10th of June, 2014, the Prosecution has requested

12     that portions of the witness statements for Witness Vukicic and

13     Witness Pejic be excluded on the basis that they contain tu quoque

14     evidence.  The Chamber would now like to invite the Defence to respond,

15     either orally or in written form, to the Prosecution's objections as set

16     out in the aforementioned responses no later than Wednesday, the

17     16th of July.

18             I continue.  On the 15th of May, the Defence filed a motion

19     pursuant to Rule 92 ter seeking the admission of a statement of

20     Witness Milorad Sehovac and a number of associated exhibits.  On the

21     29th of May, the Prosecution filed its response, not objecting to the

22     Rule 92 ter motion but opposing the admission of certain associated

23     exhibits.  On the 4th of June, the Defence filed a request for leave to

24     reply with its reply attached as an annex.  The Chamber hereby grants

25     leave to reply.

Page 23801

 1             Next, in its response on the 29th of May of this year, the

 2     Prosecution opposed the admission of the associated exhibits listed as

 3     Rule 65 ter numbers 1D02057 and 1D02058, requesting the Defence to

 4     correctly identify and upload the documents in e-court.  In its reply,

 5     the Defence stated that the correct 65 ter numbers of the documents

 6     referred to in paragraphs 52 and 53 of the statements are 1D02527 and

 7     1D2528.  The Chamber would like to know whether the Prosecution objects

 8     to the admission of the correctly identified documents.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Kecmanovic.  Before you give

11     evidence the rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the text

12     of which is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

13     declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

15     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  NENAD KECMANOVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, please be seated, Mr. Kecmanovic.

19     Mr. Kecmanovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find him

20     to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

21             Mr. Lukic, I take it that you'll finish during this first

22     session, if there are not too many interruptions.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Me too, Your Honour.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 23802

 1                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Professor.

 3        A.   Good morning.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I would just ask the usher to help us.  I want to

 5     hand the statement to Professor Kecmanovic.

 6             And we can have on our screens 1D1633.  That's the statement

 7     Professor Kecmanovic has in front of him in hard copy.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you perhaps start with asking the witness

 9     for stating his name for the record.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, you heard it.  I forgot to ask you to

12     state your first and last name for the record.

13        A.   Nenad Kecmanovic.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You see before you on the screen and in hard copy the

15     first page of your statement.  Is this your signature?

16        A.   It is.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the last page as well.  We

18     see on the screen the last page.

19        Q.   Do you recognise your signature?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Did you have occasion to see the statement before signing it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You provided this statement to the Defence of President Karadzic

24     and of General Mladic as well; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23803

 1        Q.   Is it correct that we agreed to remove paragraph 54 of the

 2     Karadzic statement because you are to testify as fact witness concerning

 3     the municipality of Prijedor, that was the case in the Karadzic

 4     proceedings, but you have no personal knowledge of the events there?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   If I were to ask the same questions of you today that you

 7     addressed in your statement, would you basically provide the same

 8     answers?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this statement

11     into evidence.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, there is one correction that was made

13     in the Karadzic case that I don't think has been here.  In paragraph 8,

14     there is a reference to the witness -- what I believe to be the witness's

15     party and it's translated as Serbian Radical Party, SRS, rather than

16     SRSJ, and I wonder if it could be clarified.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, you remember that you were asked

19     about it in the previous proceedings.  There was some confusion with the

20     abbreviations; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   It was stated that it was the Serb Radical Party, but what was

23     the real name of your party?

24        A.   The abbreviation was the same, SRS, but it was the Alliance of

25     Reform Forces, and thus -- and there was confusion.

Page 23804

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1633 receives number D556,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I took it that by making that one

 6     observation that there was no objection, therefore D556 is admitted into

 7     evidence.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you to my learned friend for raising this and

 9     giving us the opportunity to correct this.  Thank you, Your Honours.

10             Now I would like to read short summary from

11     Professor Kecmanovic's statement.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  May Mr. Lukic read slowly

13     as the booths have not been given a copy of the summary.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're invited to speak slowly since the

15     booths have not received a copy.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I will.  It's a short one so I think I won't create

17     big trouble for the booths.

18             Nenad Kecmanovic was a member of the B and H Presidency from

19     April 1992, when the Serb politicians left that body, until July 1992.

20     Nenad Kecmanovic will testify about the political crisis in B and H that

21     led to the war.  He will testify about the division of political power in

22     B and H after the first multi-party elections.  Furthermore, he will

23     testify about the relationship between the SDS, SDA, and HDZ, as well as

24     about the arming of Muslims and Croats before the outbreak of the war.

25             Nenad Kecmanovic will testify about the functioning of the B and

Page 23805

 1     H Presidency after the beginning of the conflict and about the peace

 2     plans.  And Professor Kecmanovic will testify about the situation and

 3     events in Sarajevo before and after the outbreak of the war.

 4             And that was the short summary.  I have some questions for

 5     Professor Kecmanovic, with your leave, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Leave is granted.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, we won't be long, but we need to go

 9     through some of the issues.  Please tell us briefly what was the sequence

10     in which the ethnic parties were founded in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   The first party to be formed was the Party of Democratic Action,

12     next it was the Croatian Democratic Union, and last the Serb Democratic

13     Party.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I would kindly ask to see 1D172 on our screens.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, we are going to see the

17     Islamic Declaration on our screens shortly.  Are you familiar with this

18     paper?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Who authored it?

21        A.   Alija Izetbegovic.

22        Q.   How was this pamphlet received by the non-Islamic peoples in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24        A.   There was much concern due to a number of theses stated in the

25     paper.  For example, there is reference made to the impossibility of

Page 23806

 1     joining Islam with non-Islamic institutions, and also that the Muslims,

 2     for as long as they are a minority in a state, need to adjust themselves

 3     to the constitution and the laws, and at the point in time when they --

 4     their numerical strength is sufficient to make them a majority, at that

 5     point they are to impose a Muslim order or Muslim theocracy of sorts, in

 6     which minority peoples would enjoy limited rights.  Some compared it to

 7     the situation of the Ottoman empire rule in Bosnia when the non-Muslim

 8     peoples enjoyed lesser rights than the members of Islamic -- the Islamic

 9     community.

10             The second edition of the declaration appeared in 1990.  That is

11     an important fact.  The first edition was published 20 years before.

12     When the first edition came out, Izetbegovic was an unknown, a clerk in a

13     construction company with a legal background.  He worked on

14     administrative tasks.  But at the moment of the second edition's

15     publication, Izetbegovic was already the leader of the most numerous

16     ethnic group in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in relative terms, plus the Muslim

17     people in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, as now, had the largest birth

18     rate, and the numerical ratio between the three groups kept changing in

19     favour of the Muslim community.  And as the leader of the most expansive

20     group, he published this declaration -- republished this declaration

21     proposing that the Muslim population impose an Islamic theocracy, which

22     was rather terrifying for a relatively minority -- or minor group as the

23     Serb one.

24        Q.   In your view, how did Alija Izetbegovic see Serbs in a future

25     Bosnia?

Page 23807

 1        A.   Well, how did he see them?  Without expanding it much further but

 2     I could already see it at the time when I was a member of the

 3     BH Presidency.  I worked on a platform, a programme document, which

 4     I initiated which was supposed to elaborate the goals of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That document, which I initiated while working

 6     alongside a group of colleagues in the Presidency, delineates or, rather,

 7     focuses on the establishment of a House of Peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     and one of the theses was that there should be parity in the Presidency

 9     of BH, including all three peoples with each having the right of veto.

10     In the parliament it would be done through the House of Peoples and in

11     the Presidency by quality representation and the right to veto.

12             The first comments about the draft of the platform, when

13     distributed to the other members of the Presidency, and when there was

14     discussion, Izetbegovic put his main objection as saying that we can see

15     from the text that the Muslims were in the majority in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I responded by saying that it was the only way for

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina to function, that all three constituent peoples needed

18     to be on an equal footing.  Otherwise, the state would not be acceptable

19     for the other two peoples without that precondition.  Despite that

20     explanation, he still objected, and we added that it was the tradition

21     which existed at the time where such mechanisms may not have been

22     institutionally drafted but were nevertheless put into practice.  There

23     was always consideration for the ethnic key, even in institutions which

24     were not directly related to politics.  For example, the school of

25     political science where I worked, the dean was always chosen on the

Page 23808

 1     ethnic key principle.  In other words, all three ethnicities had their

 2     representatives rotating at the helm of the school and the same applied

 3     to Sarajevo university and other universities in the country, although

 4     there were fewer back then.  However, the principle was the same.  The

 5     same was in place for the president of the arts and sciences academy and

 6     so on and so forth.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you please put focused questions to

 8     the witness because part of what he says is already in his statement and

 9     we don't need to hear it twice.  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, please tell us what is Uma?

12        A.   Uma is also something Izetbegovic mentions in the

13     Islamic Declaration.  At some point he says that small- and medium-sized

14     ethnic states are not strong enough to be political players, but that it

15     is faith that unites the Muslim people.  He discusses Uma, which is a

16     sort of Muslim or Islamic community which would be above any of the

17     states as an umbrella organisation which would encompass Muslims from

18     Morocco to Indonesia.  It was supposed to be a cultural and political

19     alliance of sorts.

20        Q.   What happened with the status of Serbs in Croatia in the fall of

21     1990?

22        A.   Briefly put, the Serbs were deleted from the constitution.  Until

23     then they had been a constituent people in the Republic of Croatia,

24     following which they were excluded from the constitution.  They were

25     demoted from a constituent people to the status of an ethnic minority.

Page 23809

 1        Q.   How did that influence the reasoning and activities of Serbs in

 2     Bosnia?

 3        A.   At the time, it was still a single country, despite it being

 4     already in the process of deep disintegration.  In that situation, the

 5     Serbs in Bosnia also felt concern, fear that something of the sort could

 6     take place in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well, given the fact that there too

 7     they were in a relative minority.  It was only natural to expect that it

 8     would stir the thinking, the consciousness of the people, in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina as well.

10        Q.   A few words on the internal borders in Yugoslavia.  What was the

11     nature of internal borders, in terms of the republics?

12        A.   Yes.  Throughout the period between the wars, we called

13     administrative or internal borders.  They did not have state character.

14     They were based on convention and treated as such until the 1960s.  At

15     the time when the borders were created at the end of World War II, when

16     peace was reintroduced following 1945, there were several options tabled

17     that were later dropped.  For example, Bosnia-Herzegovina itself, in one

18     variant, was to be seen as a third autonomous province within Serbia, and

19     a part of the Communist leadership, including Mosa Pijade, I believe, who

20     represented that variant, was outvoted as compared to the other members

21     of the leadership.  And one of the opposing group leaders was Djilas.

22     They were rather in favour of Bosnia-Herzegovina being a separate

23     republic.

24        Q.   For those who don't know that, what was the ethnic background of

25     Mosa Pijade?

Page 23810

 1        A.   He was a Jew.

 2        Q.   Rankovic, you mentioned in line 10 of page 12?

 3        A.   Serbian.  If you allow me, let me add, it is a well-known fact

 4     how those internal boundaries or borders were treated.  For instance, a

 5     part of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the first variant which was adopted

 6     officially, part of Montenegro, Herceg Novi, the town which is a coastal

 7     littoral town in Montenegro, was seen as part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8     After it was adopted, a year later, the leader of Montenegro,

 9     Blazo Jovanovic asked Djuro Pucar, who was the Communist leader of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, he asked him, given that Montenegro was small in

11     territorial terms, to give them Herceg Novi town and surrounds, and

12     Djuro Pucar granted him his wish.  And that correction was subsequently

13     introduced and then it was legalised, and it was considered legal and

14     legitimate.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did Alija Izetbegovic think that war was more -- that

16     peace was more important or separation of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

17     Yugoslavia?

18        A.   Oh, you hint at his much-quoted statement before the Assembly of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was quoted as saying he would favour sovereignty

20     even if it meant war.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know anything about visits by

22     Alija Izetbegovic to other countries in 1991?  Do you remember his first

23     visit?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  His first visit to Ankara -- was to Ankara, he went to

25     Turkey first.  And what was memorable about that visit, which caused an

Page 23811

 1     incident, is that while there, he applied on behalf of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 2     for introduction or joining the Conference of Islamic Organisation or the

 3     International Islamic Organisation although he had not been given a

 4     consent from the other two sides in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It even led to

 5     an incident of sorts because Nikola Koljevic, who -- when it came to

 6     internal division of labour and remit within the Presidency, who was in

 7     charge of foreign relations, but he had not been informed about this,

 8     neither was the Presidency, but Alija Izetbegovic, when hearing

 9     objections about that, he explained it in this very naive way:  Well,

10     I understood the Division of labour was that the Muslims would lead the

11     Presidency, the Serbs the Assembly, and the Croats the government, which

12     was a very naive explanation for such a move on his part.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Just a brief question about this.  Do you know

14     Mr. Zulfikar Pasic?

15        A.   I knew him personally as well as Mr. Izetbegovic and other

16     prominent protagonists of these developments.  As far as Adil

17     Zulfikarpasic is concerned, at the very beginning, he was involved in

18     establishing the SDA, the Muslim political party.  He was among the

19     leaders.  He was one of the two vice-presidents.  His importance lay in

20     the fact that during the communist regime, he helped Muslim dissidents.

21     He funded the legal fees and defence of Alija Izetbegovic before court.

22     He established an Islamic institute in Zurich which was a refuge for

23     Muslim dissidents.

24             He appeared in Sarajevo on the eve of -- of the reconstruction or

25     revival of multi-party system.  He approached me with an idea of

Page 23812

 1     establishing a multi-ethnic political party.  He would lead it.  I was

 2     offered a place for vice-president on behalf of the Serbs.  I don't know

 3     who he planned for the Croat side.

 4             Although he had created many favours for Alija Izetbegovic, he

 5     split from Alija Izetbegovic very soon, citing religious conservatism and

 6     fanaticism within the SDA.  He explained it in that way.  After that he

 7     established his own political party, which bore no Islamic or Muslim

 8     characteristics.  The name was Bosniak -- Muslim Bosniak party.  It was a

 9     lay party.  However, it wasn't very successful at the ballot box.  Some

10     parts of the Muslim elite joined it, but it wasn't very appealing to the

11     voter.

12             At the same time, he was one of the Muslim leaders who showed to

13     be most in favour of a peaceful solution for Bosnia-Herzegovina, for a

14     peaceful settlement.  He was part of an unfortunately unsuccessful

15     arrangement with the Serbs in Bosnia, with Slobodan Milosevic.  That

16     agreement shows -- has two titles.  First is the historic agreement and

17     the other title is the Belgrade initiative.  It was a project whereby

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina would be -- remain part of a truncated Yugoslavia and

19     would be on equal footing with Serbia and Montenegro, who had opted to

20     stay within Yugoslavia.

21             One of the solutions was to make Alija Izetbegovic the first

22     president of such a truncated Yugoslavia.  Alija Izetbegovic supported

23     that initiative, but on the eve of its publication, a conference,

24     televised conference, was convened.  I was there as a representative of

25     the opposition parties, and Izetbegovic was supposed to come back from a

Page 23813

 1     trip.  He showed up, and he said, live on TV, that the SDA would

 2     withdraw -- would like withdraw from that agreement.

 3        Q.   Professor, thank you.  We will have to speed things up to shorten

 4     your answers.  We know that professors are even more talkative than

 5     lawyers.

 6             Could you please briefly tell us what happened in October 1991 in

 7     the political life of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   That is arguably one of the turning points.  I presume by this

 9     you mean the proclamation of Bosnia-Herzegovina's independence.  Well,

10     this is an introduction to a -- a prelude to events which would break up

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina and lead to war.  Bosnia-Herzegovinians' independence

12     was proclaimed despite the opposition of Serbian deputies in the

13     Assembly.  For the first time, a mechanism of the workings of

14     Bosnia-Herzegovinian parliament was broken and that mechanism was council

15     for a national equality.  It was a substitute to the House of Peoples

16     which worked at the -- following the following principle:  If one

17     delegation would oppose a move -- motion, then that motion would be

18     deleted from the standing orders.  For the first time, SDA and HDZ

19     ignored Serbs' demands to strike it off the standing orders.  They even

20     ignored the fact that Serbian deputies walked out and that decision on

21     BH independence was adopted.

22             It wasn't just about that event but the importance was that

23     ethnic equality was violated.  The principle was violated, and the

24     Bosnian Serb people and the deputies saw that as a change in behaviour in

25     political life, and that it was an introduction of a different climate

Page 23814

 1     where one of the three constituent nations would be made less equal or

 2     that those mechanisms for equality would be systematically violated.

 3        Q.   What was the majority during the voting?

 4        A.   I cannot recall.

 5        Q.   Was it a two-thirds majority?

 6        A.   No.  Neither was it achieved in all the subsequent votes, which

 7     is requisite for such decisions which is also applicable to the

 8     referendum on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I know

 9     specifically that the outcome was 64 per cent in favour of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession.  Of course, you needed 66 per cent for

11     that to be a two-thirds majority.  So it's simply incredible how you

12     could violate and ignore such a violation, which is apparent in

13     mathematical terms and how the international community also ignored that

14     fact, including the Badinter commission and other European institutions

15     who chose to ignore that fact.

16        Q.   After that, immediately after that, what was the reaction of the

17     HDZ, after, in October 1991, together with the SDA, when they voted for

18     BiH independence?

19        A.   Well, generally speaking - and I could illustrate this through

20     many examples but I'm trying to be brief - it was a tactical move of the

21     HDZ, as I see it, and they used that tactic later on.  On the one hand,

22     they would show solidarity with the SDA, but at the same time they made

23     moves which were symmetrical to Serb moves.  Then a couple of weeks ago,

24     they started creating Croatian autonomous districts such as Serbian

25     autonomous districts.  For instance, there was the Herceg-Bosnia

Page 23815

 1     autonomous district and then there was another one, HAO, of central

 2     Bosnia, where there were large concentrations of Croats among the general

 3     population.

 4        Q.   You explained how the right to veto was commonplace in political

 5     life of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  When Koljevic and Plavsic left the

 6     Presidency, you were co-opted into the Presidency.  Did you seek that the

 7     rule of consensus and the right to veto be introduced?

 8        A.   This was the precondition for my joining the Presidency because

 9     it had been demonstrated earlier that there was constant outvoting.  For

10     that reason, Serbian representatives left the Presidency.  This was the

11     reason.  I demanded that we have consensual decision-making, which

12     implied the right to veto of course.  Another condition I put, not the

13     only one, that all members of the Presidency freeze their party political

14     functions, and the third demand was that the government be changed, which

15     was incompetent.  But my first and primary condition was to introduce

16     right of veto and consensual decision-making.  Then Izetbegovic had two

17     weeks to mull it over and then he accepted those conditions, but later on

18     he systematically violated those demands.  If you like me, I can

19     illustrate this through a couple of examples.

20        Q.   Does this principle apply in the political life of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina still?

22        A.   As I initially said, I introduced that principle into the

23     political platform that we were engaged in drafting before these events,

24     because this was -- in June 1992 was accepted by the whole Presidency.

25     And even today, this document is being mentioned as a document, as a

Page 23816

 1     platform that could have stopped or prevented the war.

 2             In the Dayton documents, this principle which is contained in the

 3     principle on which I insisted as a condition for my joining the

 4     Presidency, this is still valid, the three-strong Presidency of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina needs to be unanimous or there is a veto, so if there

 6     is no unanimity, there is no decision.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Was the term of office of Mr. Alija Izetbegovic

 8     limited or unlimited?

 9        A.   Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, first of all, did not become a president

10     of the Presidency regularly.  Fikret Abdic should have been that by law

11     because he received the largest number of votes, but the circumstances

12     dictated that president -- Alija Izetbegovic become president and I can

13     explain those circumstances.  His term of office was one year.  He was a

14     chairman of a collegiate body.  He was a primus inter pares.  He had a

15     one-year term of office with the possibility of extending that term for

16     another year, but as you know, Izetbegovic continued to -- in this post,

17     contrary to the constitution, throughout the war and even in the post-war

18     years.

19             Constitution dictated that in 1992, or towards the end of 1992,

20     he should have been replaced by a representative of the Croatian people.

21     That was the system, the ethnic key.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Let's discuss recognition of the republics.

23             When was the Badinter commission supposed to reach their decision

24     on the recognition of Slovenia and Croatia, and the conditions for

25     recognition of a republic?

Page 23817

 1        A.   I cannot recall the exact date.

 2        Q.   As regards that decision, which was supposed to have been made by

 3     the Badinter commission, when did Germany recognise Slovenia and Croatia?

 4        A.   It took place in Maastricht at a European-level meeting.

 5     According to the contemporaneous information and the documents I read

 6     subsequently, it was a sort of blackmail, a forced decision, opposed by

 7     the Americans, but that was the meeting when decisions were made on the

 8     common currency, and Germany preconditioned that condition by recognising

 9     the two republics first.

10        Q.   As regards the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina which took place

11     on the 29th of February and 1 March 1992, save for the percentages you

12     mentioned, saying that there was no two-third majority, was the voting

13     itself legitimate without the participation of the Serbian people?

14        A.   Of course it was illegitimate.  In a way, the Serb Democratic

15     Party - actually by that time we could already refer to it as the Serbian

16     National Movement - in a certain way expressed its own political will

17     about the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  They had organised a

18     plebiscite before the referendum but the mechanism was the same.

19     Thereupon, the Serbs and possibly individual representatives of the other

20     two peoples voted in very high percentages, over 90 per cent, in favour

21     of Bosnia-Herzegovina remaining within Yugoslavia.  Simply put, the Serbs

22     boycotted the referendum.  They did not vote except in individual cases.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The Badinter commission proposed certain conditions

24     for the holding of the referendum.  Were the conditions met?  And if not,

25     what was not met, if you recall?

Page 23818

 1        A.   In the Badinter solution, it was envisaged that a majority of all

 2     three peoples would have to be in favour of that decision but that was

 3     not honoured.

 4        Q.   The government which declared independence on 3 March 1992, did

 5     it include representatives of all three peoples?

 6        A.   The BH government?  Yes, it did.

 7        Q.   Did Serb representatives vote in favour of independence?

 8        A.   They didn't.

 9        Q.   Briefly, on the Cutileiro Plan, did it envisage a division of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did all other peace plans for Bosnia-Herzegovina envisage a

13     division in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   It is interesting to look at it from this point of view, when

15     considering political developments in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time,

16     that division was made more dramatic.  It was always discussed in the

17     context of something that would destroy Bosnia-Herzegovina from the

18     inside, and I was following it, that is why I can testify to it and I was

19     also a direct participant through the political bodies.  Starting with

20     the Cutileiro Plan, which included the opposition parties as well, and

21     there was always this reference made to this -- the separation.  There

22     was a map expert always close on hand to Cutileiro, a British person,

23     whose last name I can't recall, but I think he died in the meantime.  All

24     subsequent plans, the Vance-Owen Plan, the Contact Group, and finally the

25     Dayton Accords all make internal division operative, as if there was no

Page 23819

 1     alternative.  No one then discussed the notion of unified Bosnia.  Even

 2     the representatives of the Muslim people discussed it as a fully

 3     legitimate proposal and preliminary -- made preliminary agreements to a

 4     possible arrangement.  For example, Izetbegovic initialled the Lisbon

 5     agreement which included it.  And then all of a sudden, it became an

 6     anathema, something that ran completely contrary to the interests of the

 7     Muslim people, simply putting forward the proposal that no such Bosnia

 8     would be possible.

 9             Some of those agreements even referred to a particular solution

10     which would be to the extent that Republika Srpska would be allowed to

11     leave Bosnia-Herzegovina after a few years, much as confederation was

12     discussed as a topic between the Muslim and Croatian community in order

13     for the Croats to join Croatia as a confederate state.  So there were two

14     different solutions placed on the table.

15        Q.   In the Bosnian pre-war calendar, what took place on 9 April 1992?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The 4th of April.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the 6th of April?  I don't

18     understand.  It doesn't ring a bell.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did Alija Izetbegovic at some point issue a general mobilisation

21     call?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Was it on the 4th or the 6th, if you know?

24        A.   On the 4th.

25        Q.   Were there any contacts between Izetbegovic and the Serb side?

Page 23820

 1        A.   Regarding that decision?

 2        Q.   Yes.

 3        A.   Yes.  Serb representatives asked that the decision be withdrawn.

 4     It practically meant introducing war into Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I know

 5     that President Karadzic and the most senior leaders of Republika Srpska

 6     insisted on not taking that road.  It was the first step to introducing a

 7     state of war and beginning a war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 8        Q.   Do you recall, from that time, who was against demilitarising

 9     Sarajevo?

10        A.   You see, the most radical person in that regard was Ejup Ganic,

11     who is otherwise a curious figure on the Bosnian scene in the ranks of

12     the Muslim community.  He ran for president and was actually elected as a

13     Yugoslav representative, supranational one, but he turned out to be one

14     of the most radical SDA members, and he even enjoyed the status of

15     Izetbegovic's deputy although not formally.

16             He also objected to the Ohrid Agreement reached between the top

17     echelons of JNA and leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was supposed to

18     introduce an interim period within which for the first five years the JNA

19     was to stay in BH territory but placing itself under the authority of the

20     new leadership of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And then after the interim period,

21     during which it would be in charge of keeping order, it would be

22     disbanded, and the personnel was to freely choose where to go following

23     that.  I myself worked on that agreement, and travelled to Belgrade to

24     discuss it.  When it was all finally defined at Ohrid, and Blagoje Adzic

25     was present at the meeting as the chief of General Staff and by that time

Page 23821

 1     defence minister, and there was also Alija Izetbegovic, Branko Kostic, as

 2     the president of Yugoslavia, and the host, Kiro Gligorov.

 3             When Izetbegovic brought the agreement to Sarajevo it was

 4     rejected, although he too took part in preparing it, on Ejup Ganic's

 5     insistence.  He was against pacifying the situation in Sarajevo.  His

 6     position was that it ran contrary to the objectives of the Muslim

 7     community, and that the Muslim community needed Sarajevo to be besieged

 8     because it was the spotlight of world media, and that they had to make

 9     sure to picture Sarajevo as a victim before the eyes of the world, the

10     victim of Serb aggression.

11        Q.   Thank you, Professor.  I think it was all we had for you at this

12     time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I would just tender 1D172 to be MFI'd since I just

15     learned that there is something missing, the last page.

16             MR. TRALDI:  That's what appears to me from a quick look.  I

17     don't have any objection to it being MFI'd, of course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we have looked at the cover page and the

19     photograph.  That's the only thing we have seen from it.  The witness

20     told us what he considered to be relevant or at least -- therefore

21     I wonder whether we need to learn by heart 77 pages, where the witness

22     spent a couple of minutes on the matter.  Of course, that's part of the

23     evidence.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, he did discuss parts although I didn't open the

25     specific pages but he did --

Page 23822

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you then, please --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  -- comment on -- we can take out those pages.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you make an excerpt of the relevant portions

 4     which -- because otherwise we have to read all 77 pages, most of the

 5     pages, at least, I'm afraid, without any context for us.  And there may

 6     be not that much disagreement about the existence of the document.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  We don't disagree about the existence of the

 8     document, no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And the content of it neither, that it is what it

10     is.

11             MR. TRALDI:  We agree it is what it is, of course, and we are

12     happy to talk to the Defence about which portions should be admitted.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If the parties -- if you could make a

14     selection, Mr. Lukic, so that we find those portions where the witness

15     referred to, and then if you would come to an agreement with the

16     Prosecution about what we should read.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the document for the time being will be MFI'd,

19     awaiting both -- well, I do not know whether there is any need to

20     complete the last page if the last page is not part of the excerpt, but

21     at least waiting for further agreement of the parties of what is covered

22     by the evidence of this witness and therefore to be read by the Judges.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D172 receives number P -- D557,

25     Your Honours.

Page 23823

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D557 is marked for identification.

 2             Mr. Kecmanovic, we take a break of 20 minutes.  You may follow

 3     the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break I would like to very

 7     briefly address one matter; that is, associated exhibits in relation to

 8     the Rule 92 ter motion of -- concerning Witness Milorad Sehovac.  The

 9     Defence has tendered 21 associated exhibits for Witness Milorad Sehovac.

10     The Chamber reminds the parties that it will not accept to be flooded

11     with associated exhibits.  This includes the length as well as the number

12     of the tendered exhibits.  The Chamber recalls that it prefers that

13     documents are tendered during the witness's examination in court, which

14     allows the witness to explain and comment on them.  That's what I would

15     like to put on the record.

16             We take a break and we resume at five minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles?

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, earlier this morning the Trial Chamber

21     inquired as to whether we had an objection to the correctly identified

22     documents associated with Milorad Sehovac.  We do not since -- now that

23     they are correctly identified.  That would be 1D02527, 1D02528.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That's on the record.

25             Mr. Lukic, my observations in relation to the number of

Page 23824

 1     associated exhibits with Mr. Sehovac, of course, is also an invitation to

 2     reduce the number of associated exhibits and to deal with them -- with

 3     any exhibit with the witness himself and -- similarly as we did with the

 4     Prosecution, because you make a reference now and then to what we did in

 5     the Prosecution's case.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, Your Honour, I don't remember that that

 7     proceeding was implied during the Prosecution case.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it was several times --

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Repeatedly, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Repeatedly.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I remember a witness with 60 documents.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not saying that on good cause shown that no

13     exceptions can be made, but the bottom line was a limited number of

14     five was -- of course, we now and then allowed a bit more, sometimes

15     considerably more, but we often also insisted very much on the reduction

16     of the number.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed.  Mr. Traldi, are you ready to

19     cross-examine Mr. Kecmanovic?

20             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, I am, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kecmanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr.

22     Traldi.  You'll find him to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the

23     Prosecution.

24             Please proceed.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

Page 23825

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   Now, you've provided expert reports in two cases before this

 4     Tribunal.  Correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   The Kvocka case and the Simic case; right?

 7        A.   Yes, it was a long time ago.

 8        Q.   You also appeared and testified as an expert in the Simic case?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in the reports you drafted, the information you provided was

11     accurate and truthful to the best of your knowledge?

12        A.   In certain cases, which I pointed out, it happened, for example,

13     when some locations are mentioned, that I received such information from

14     others.  It was second-hand information.  Practically during the entire

15     period before the war and the first few months of the war, I was in

16     Sarajevo, so I have no knowledge applicable to any areas outside

17     Sarajevo.  Based on direct experience, that is.  I generally assessed the

18     situation within the political context.

19        Q.   I understand that you're attempting to distinguish how you

20     acquired different types of information.  My question was simply:  The

21     information you provided in those reports, was it accurate and truthful

22     to the best of your knowledge and your ability to ensure that it was

23     accurate and truthful?  Whatever source you acquired the information

24     from.

25        A.   Yes, you are correct.

Page 23826

 1        Q.   And you also gave a statement to the Karadzic Defence team;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I'd like to look now at the one paragraph of your statement for

 5     the Karadzic case which is not included in your statement for this case.

 6     In paragraph 54 of that statement --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 30943.  It's page 28 in the

 8     English, and the bottom of page 20 in the B/C/S.  This will be

 9     Mr. Kecmanovic's statement to the Karadzic Defence.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kindly zoom in on the Serbian

11     version.

12             MR. TRALDI:  It's at the bottom of the page on the left-hand

13     side, under the word "Prijedor."

14             This paragraph reads:

15             "As for the expert report for Prijedor, which I wrote for another

16     case" - I think we will have to turn very soon to the next page in the

17     B/C/S, at the top - "and in which I mentioned an incident in which two

18     Serbian policemen were killed, I stand by what is written in my report.

19     It says that the killing caused terrible repression by the Serbian army

20     and police which ended with the expulsion of the Muslim population not

21     only from that village but the neighbouring ones as well and with the

22     torching of Muslim houses.  In my report, I also described what happened

23     in Omarska and Keraterm, saying they were place was highly inhumane

24     conditions.  I also stated that war crimes had been committed against

25     individuals and groups of prisoners there.  I would like to add that

Page 23827

 1     I gained my knowledge about these events during work tasks carried out

 2     with other experts who were better informed about what was going on

 3     locally.  I have no direct knowledge of these events nor did I

 4     participate in them."

 5        Q.   Do you stand by that statement today, sir?

 6        A.   I drew my conclusions based on the way I explained therein,

 7     saying that I had no personal knowledge but that it was second-hand

 8     information.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That is what the statement actually says, Witness.

10     So therefore, the question was whether you stand by this, of course,

11     including those lines.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I said, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Just for clarity of the record I think it's important to have an

16     answer to the initial question.  Do you stand by the paragraph that

17     I just read from your Karadzic statement today?  In its entirety.

18        A.   Not in its entirety.  Only the concluding part.

19        Q.   So you do not stand by the expert report you drafted for your

20     earlier trial?  For the Kvocka trial?

21        A.   Because in the meantime, I heard other information, since I spent

22     quite a lot of time in the territory of Republika Srpska.  People from

23     the field pointed out to me that it wasn't quite as it was stated before.

24        Q.   That must have happened, then, since you gave your statement in

25     the Karadzic case.  Because in 2012, you did stand behind that report.

Page 23828

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So let's just go through.  Is it no longer your position that

 3     there was terrible repression by the Serbian army and police in Prijedor?

 4        A.   To the extent that it is unavoidable in wartime conditions.

 5        Q.   And you contest that there were inhumane conditions in Omarska

 6     and Keraterm?

 7        A.   You see, in prisoner camps, as far as I know, one doesn't

 8     encounter much humane principle applied because the institution per

 9     definition is not a very humane one and also as per definition conditions

10     reflect that.  I say so based on my presumption because I never spent any

11     time in such camps.

12        Q.   Now, you've also testified under oath that you admitted

13     atrocities had occurred at those camps, haven't you?

14        A.   You see, I spoke under oath, but the thing is much time has

15     passed in between and in the meantime I acquired new information, new

16     knowledge, which can relativise or rebut the information that I had

17     received previously, because these are all second-hand information.  What

18     I testified about as being my personal knowledge, this I cannot change.

19     But about those testimonies that are based on second-hand information,

20     these can be changed by intervening second-hand information that

21     I received in the meantime, and this may prompt me to change my opinion.

22        Q.   Let's go through the sources of information you had had by the

23     time you testified in the Karadzic case.  You'd received reports while

24     you were a member of the BiH Presidency; right?

25        A.   You see, I cannot take into account as relevant information that

Page 23829

 1     I received as member of the Presidency because those information were

 2     sort of wartime propaganda.  If you give me time, I could explain how the

 3     Presidency really functioned, not nominally but really.  The information

 4     that you insist on, I received later on in Belgrade via a person who

 5     resided in Belgrade at the time - I could tell you his name,

 6     unfortunately he's no longer alive - who hails that from that territory,

 7     who went -- used to go there and go back to Belgrade, et cetera.

 8        Q.   So, again, you didn't directly answer the question I asked, but

 9     I take it from your answer that it's right that you did receive reports

10     while you were a member of the BiH Presidency, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes.  We received the information that we absolutely could not

12     rely upon.  I even stated something to that effect in my statement.  The

13     information that we received came from mainly Sefer Halilovic, who, at

14     the time, was Chief of the General Staff of the ABiH, and who was even a

15     member of the War Presidency.  And he would supply us with information to

16     the effect that the Serb army was committing terrible atrocities, the

17     Muslim civilians suffered great casualties, and as far as the military

18     part of the report is concerned, he would keep reporting about huge

19     successes on the part of ABiH.  It was such implausible that -- so

20     implausible that even Alija Izetbegovic asked him to present more

21     realistic reports.  So we kept hearing about terrible atrocities on

22     the -- carried out by the Serbian army against Muslim civilians and

23     successes -- a continuous stream of successes of the ABiH against the

24     aggressor.  Of course, this could not correspond to the truth, but the

25     consequence of that was that none of us could really rely upon what we

Page 23830

 1     kept hearing from him.

 2        Q.   So I think the simple answer to the question was:  Yes, you

 3     received reports.  You chose not -- you choose today not rely upon them.

 4     Is that right?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  I think the witness said at that time he

 6     didn't have any trust in those information, not that he choose today not

 7     to trust them.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the witness said that he received the

 9     reports.  I think that part of your summary is right.  And the witness

10     said that for his report, he couldn't rely on it.  I think he -- let me

11     just take it -- take you back to -- one second, please.

12             MR. LUKIC:  If I may help, page 31, line 9, it starts, the

13     answer:  "We received the information that we absolutely could not rely

14     upon."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you did not rely upon it in your

16     2012 report, Mr. Kecmanovic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.  So the -- and

19     you still do not rely upon it?  That's what I understand.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Now, I want to look, then, at some excerpts from the sessions of

24     the Bosnian Presidency at the time.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30954?  This is an excerpt from

Page 23831

 1     the 133rd session on 30 June 1992.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could I perhaps ask one additional

 3     question in relation to what the witness earlier said.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Of course.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you had -- you got information from a

 6     person who had -- in Belgrade, a person who had died.  Could you tell us

 7     who that was?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosko Baskot was his name.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And when did he die?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think last year.  He was very

11     old.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is there any way the parties could perhaps

13     verify when this person died?  Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  We will look into it, Mr. President.  Could we have

15     page 7 in the English and page 14 in the B/C/S?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  He was a communist

17     official who had played an important role up to the half-point line in

18     the -- in a period between the two wars and up to an extent until the

19     very end.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I only asked you when he died.  Please

21     proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   And at the top of the page, we see the end of a comment of yours,

24     the top of the page in the English.  I believe it's toward the bottom in

25     the B/C/S.  And you've been talking about some Serbs who were detained in

Page 23832

 1     Sarajevo.  You say:

 2             "To be frank, the more cases like this we have, the more we would

 3     indirectly tolerate this.  Signing up to the anarchy that is happening on

 4     the other side, where the crimes are of course incomparably worse,

 5     genocide, et cetera" --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go to the next page in the English?

 7             MR. TRALDI:  It's at the top, right above the word "Izetbegovic"

 8     in English, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, thank you.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.

11        Q.   "However, this does not excuse us anything in establishing the

12     rule of law in the areas we control."

13             Now, the other side would have been the Serb side at the time;

14     right?

15        A.   Well, this concerns also the Serbian and the Croatian side

16     because at that time, you know --

17        Q.   So it concerns both the Serbian and the Croatian side; is that

18     right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  So it appears that at that

21     time, you are discussing crimes, including genocide, being committed by

22     the Serb and, as you say, Croat sides.  So my question is:  Were you

23     relying on the reports you received as a member of the BiH Presidency or

24     had you also acquired that information from other sources?

25        A.   We had opportunity to hear in the media, on the radio, for

Page 23833

 1     instance, foreign radio stations, who at the time, if I remember

 2     correctly, spoke about 300.000, as early as the first few months of the

 3     war, 300.000 Muslim casualties, because those reports coming from

 4     international media sounded much more plausible, more authoritative.

 5     When you are in such a position, you are impressed with such information.

 6     Of course you cannot verify them.  And as you know, later on, even Muslim

 7     institutions and international institutions reduced that number from

 8     300.000, not just Muslims, but to 100.000 of all Serbs, Croats and

 9     Muslims.  And of course, at the time you had to select between what you

10     believe and what you do not believe.

11        Q.   My question was simply:  Were you relying on the reports you

12     received as a member of the Presidency or also from other sources?  And I

13     understand you received reports as a member of the Presidency and also

14     from other sources about the crimes being committed against Muslims.  Is

15     that right?

16        A.   When such information were corresponding to one another, then

17     I would show more confidence in them, of course, yes.

18        Q.   And one of the ways that the information corresponded is both of

19     them reported massive atrocities against the Muslim population in various

20     areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina; isn't that right?

21        A.   Yes.  After I left Sarajevo, I received more credible

22     information, and this is why I cited this example about the total number

23     of casualties.  Later on, subsequently, they were shown to be untrue.

24        Q.   But for 20 years, from the time you left the Presidency till the

25     time you gave your Karadzic statement, that continuing credible

Page 23834

 1     information did not change your view that inhumane acts, crimes, had been

 2     committed at camps including Keraterm and Omarska; isn't that right?

 3        A.   I already discussed this, that I subsequently received

 4     information that these claims were overblown, and this is why I express

 5     now that I have a different attitude towards them.

 6        Q.   Well, when I asked you about the paragraph in your Karadzic

 7     statement, I didn't ask you about specific numbers of victims at either

 8     camp.  What I asked you was whether you stood by your conclusion that you

 9     by then had expressed on multiple occasions, that crimes had been

10     committed in Prijedor municipality, including those camps.  So is your

11     position that certain things you heard were overblown or that no crimes

12     were committed there?

13        A.   That they were overblown, yes.

14        Q.   And so you continue to agree that crimes were committed in both

15     of those institutions and in Prijedor municipality?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   And in the Presidency, the people discussing crimes against

18     non-Serb civilians including those held in camps weren't just you and

19     General Halilovic, they also included the Serb representative, the other

20     Serb representative, Mr. Mirko Pejanovic; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 10 in the English and 17 in

23     the B/C/S, and it's towards the top of the page in the English.

24        Q.   Mr. Pejanovic says in pertinent part:

25             "I think we are reacting inadequately to this spreading and

Page 23835

 1     increase in the number of camps for Muslims in the republic.  We are not

 2     doing enough to animate the public either in Bosnia or internationally."

 3             So Mr. Pejanovic again is informing the Presidency and discussing

 4     in the Presidency the increase and spread in camps for Muslims in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I would tender this document as the

 8     next public Prosecution exhibit.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30954 receives number P6657,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, what's the size of the document?

13             MR. TRALDI:  I admit, Your Honour, I don't recall off the top of

14     my head but we are checking.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it a lengthy document, that, of course, is the

16     gist of my question, and do we need all of it?

17             MR. TRALDI:  It's an excerpt from the transcript.  The B/C/S is

18     20 pages and the English somewhat less, 12.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  12 pages, and it mainly deals -- the excerpt is

20     focused on the questions you've put to the witness?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I've inquired about the parts I'm most interested

22     in, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No objections.

24             Madam Registrar, the number would be?  Oh, we already received

25     the number, yes.  Yes, we received the number.  Then P6657 is admitted.

Page 23836

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   And the 30th of June isn't the first time that someone other than

 3     you or other than Mr. Halilovic, General Halilovic, discussed camps for

 4     non-Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the Presidency, is it?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  30th of June of which year, Mr. Traldi?

 6             MR. TRALDI:  1992, Judge Moloto, as in the excerpt from the

 7     transcript we just looked at.  I apologise.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   I'll ask my question again in case that would be useful.  The

11     30th of June 1992, in the previous excerpt we looked at, that's not the

12     first time that someone other than you, someone other than

13     General Halilovic, discussed camps for non-Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina at

14     the Presidency, is it?

15        A.   Probably no.  Well, I can't remember specifically.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 30945.  These are the minutes of

17     the 117th session of the BiH Presidency on the 12th of June, 1992.  And

18     if we could turn to page 2.

19        Q.   We see a list of attendees and under members of the Presidency,

20     we see your name; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 3 in both languages.

23        Q.   Under items, or "taska," 1 and 2, I'm going to direct your

24     attention to Dr. Musir Brkic's comments.  And it says he:

25             "... Explained the difference between immediate threat of war

Page 23837

 1     which is now in the BiH in force and proclamation of the state of war,

 2     and then" - and this will be the part that I'm asking you about -

 3     "pointed to the great problem regarding the arrested civilians who are

 4     being taken to Pale and other camps."

 5             Now, at this time Pale was in Serb territory; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   He was discussing camps run by Serbs; right?

 8        A.   Probably.

 9        Q.   And discussing the arrested non-Serb civilians who were being

10     held there?  Right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document, 65 ter 30945.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I would then object since it's probably lengthy as

14     well.  So only the excerpt should be taken.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not know yet.  I would have asked, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. TRALDI:  In this case, it's the minutes.  It's four pages in

17     B/C/S and five in English.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I don't have the documents yet for the cross with me

19     so I also don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may revisit the issue of the length

21     if further studying the document would lead you to do so.

22             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30945 receives number P6658,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

Page 23838

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Sir, you've suggested that these allegations were propaganda;

 3     right?

 4        A.   You see, you insisted on something what Musir Brkic stated, but

 5     you see, you have to take into account the following thing.  When it

 6     comes to Mirko Pejanovic, he stayed in the Presidency all the way because

 7     he -- among other things, he thought about these things differently from

 8     me.  And I left the Presidency, Pejanovic stayed there and lives there.

 9     You will notice that I insisted and discussed mistreatment of Serbs in

10     Sarajevo because I immediately witnessed those things.  What happened --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not the issue.  The issue is that you earlier

12     said that these reports were propaganda, not how you responded to that

13     propaganda, not what others thought, and that is what Mr. Traldi is now

14     asking you, whether these allegations are propaganda or not, because you

15     named them as such before.  Irrespective of --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, the question was

17     how much confidence I had in what was provided as information.

18     Everything was second hand because I wasn't in Pale.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, you want to make your own statement

20     apparently.  I'll read the question to you:

21             "Sir, you've suggested that these allegations were propaganda;

22     right?"

23             That was the question.  Nothing else.  Could you please answer

24     that question.

25             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

Page 23839

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't hear your answer, Mr. Kecmanovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have confidence in those

 3     information.  I saw them as propaganda.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer, therefore, is yes.  Whether you had

 5     confidence in them was not the question.  The question was whether it was

 6     propaganda.  You say:  "I saw them as propaganda."  That's the answer to

 7     the question.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 09723?

10             Now, this is an analysis of functioning of the RS MUP so far and

11     the outlines of its furthers activities dated 11 July 1992.

12             Could we turn to page 2 in both languages, please?

13        Q.   In the second paragraph, at the beginning, we read:

14             "The meeting was attended by the following people ..."

15             We see Mico Stanisic's name and then a number of others.  Those

16     are all officials in the Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior;

17     correct?

18        A.   What was the question, please?

19        Q.   Those names there, those are all officials in the

20     Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior; right?  Mico Stanisic,

21     Cedo Kljajic, Slobodan Skipina, and a number of others?

22        A.   Some of the names do ring a bell.

23        Q.   Well, you're familiar with Mr. Stanisic; correct?

24        A.   Yes, correct.

25        Q.   And he was the minister of internal affairs; right?

Page 23840

 1        A.   In a certain period of time, as far as I know.

 2        Q.   That period of time included the 11th of July, when this meeting

 3     was held; right?

 4        A.   I really can't say.  I don't know.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 8 in the English and I believe

 6     it's 9 in the B/C/S.  It will be the top of 8 in the English.

 7        Q.   Here we see part of Mr. Zupljanin's remarks, which began a few

 8     pages earlier.  At the top of the page in the English we read:

 9             "The army and Crisis Staffs wartime Presidencies demand gathering

10     as many Muslims as possible and leave such non-defined camps to the

11     internal affairs.  The conditions in these camps are poor.  There is no

12     food.  Some individuals do not comply with the international standards

13     because, among other things, the concentration centres are not

14     appropriate or for other reasons."

15             Now, I'd put to you --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should, for the benefit of the witness, also

17     indicate where this is to be found on the B/C/S version.

18             MR. TRALDI:  My Cyrillic is a little bit imperfect, Your Honour,

19     so it may take me a moment.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, did you find the portion Mr. Traldi read

21     to you?  Did you find the --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my screen, it says:

23             Several thousand court proceedings have not been completed, the

24     courts are not operational, et cetera.  In keeping with the regulation on

25     subject matter jurisdiction of the courts, and so on and so forth.

Page 23841

 1             MR. TRALDI:  It seems we may have the wrong page in the B/C/S.

 2     And I apologise for that, Your Honours.  Could we perhaps go back to

 3     page 8?  Here I think it may be the second bullet essentially.

 4        Q.   Does that correspond to the English I read you, sir?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Now when I have the translation, actually, the

 6     original in B/C/S, I would object to the translation.  It says

 7     "concentration centres."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second, Mr. Lukic.  If you want to

 9     discuss the content and the accuracy of the translation, I'd rather do

10     that in the absence of the witness.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Or the witness can just read what is written so it

12     should be translated.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to have --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you know that usually verification of

15     translation is not done by reading and then receiving interpretation.

16     So, Mr. Traldi, is there any way that you could proceed and that we could

17     discuss this later, that is, somewhere eight minutes from now, in the

18     absence of the witness?  If not, then we will just ask the witness to

19     leave the courtroom for a second.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'd guess --

21             MR. LUKIC:  One more thing, I don't have this document on the

22     list.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi?

24             MR. TRALDI:  I have it on the bottom of page 2, and when I say "I

25     have it," I mean of course that Ms. Stewart has it at the bottom of

Page 23842

 1     page 2 of our list.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I stand corrected.  I'm semi-blind.

 3     I couldn't find it swiftly.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I'd suggest, since the words Mr. Lukic mentioned are

 5     not essential to my question, that perhaps we have CLSS check it later.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You could ask the witness to read in his language

 7     and then ask whatever questions you'd like to put to him, and then later

 8     we can deal with the accuracy of the translation.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.

10        Q.   So could you read that second paragraph starting at:  "The army

11     and Crisis Staff," sir?

12        A.   I can see the paragraph, yes.

13        Q.   Could you read aloud beginning at the word -- I think it's

14     "Vojska"?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, whenever the witness reads anything which

16     is of concern to you, then please indicate so, Mr. Traldi, because there

17     is a standard procedure, translations are not to be corrected by reading

18     and then translating.  Now, I do not know what -- where Mr. Lukic's

19     problem is.  I do not know what you want to draw our attention to, so not

20     knowing the two, you can ask the witness to read aloud -- to read or

21     perhaps you indicate already what you want him to read, and then

22     Mr. Lukic will tell us whether he has any concerns with those lines.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   To start, sir, could you read the first sentence?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, any problem?

Page 23843

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I know that I saw the problem in the second-last row

 2     in this paragraph.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, then the witness can read the first sentence.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The army and Crisis Staffs,

 5     wartime Presidency, demand gathering as many Muslims as possible and

 6     leave such non-defined camps to the internal affairs.  The conditions in

 7     these camps are poor.  There is no food.  Some individuals do not comply

 8     with the international standards because, among other things, such

 9     collection centres are not appropriate or for other reasons."

10             Should I go on?

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   No, you've, I think in your enthusiasm, have read two sentences

13     rather than one.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Collection centres or concentration centres.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'd suggest we have CLSS check that.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that the issue --

18             MR. TRALDI:  That seems to be the issue --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  At least it talks about centres.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What kind of centres we'll --

22             MR. LUKIC:  I would suggest that this translation was a proper

23     one, not the written one.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that will be verified and we can proceed

25     for the time being.

Page 23844

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   So, sir, I wanted to direct your attention to a different part.

 3     This reports that the army and the Crisis Staffs, the political

 4     authorities, had demanded gathering as many Muslims as possible in camps

 5     with poor conditions, doesn't it?

 6        A.   This report comes from the Serb side.

 7        Q.   As I noted, these are part of Mr. Stojan Zupljanin's remarks.

 8        A.   Then it is probably authentic.

 9        Q.   And --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please -- apparently you have a

11     different agenda on your mind as just answering the questions.  The

12     question was the following:  Mr. Traldi wanted to direct your attention

13     to this report and this report says that the army and the Crisis Staffs,

14     the political authorities, had demanded gathering as many Muslims as

15     possible in camps with poor conditions.

16             Mr. Traldi asked you whether that is what this paragraph at least

17     in this portion says.  Does it or does it not?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what it reads.  I just read

19     it out, out loud.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what it reads, that's what it says.

21     Please proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   And this is around the same time you were receiving such reports

24     as a member of the BiH Presidency, isn't it?

25        A.   There was a lot of difference.

Page 23845

 1        Q.   What I asked about, sir, is:  Was this around the time that you

 2     were receiving such reports?  We saw those in June, and this is in the

 3     first half of July; right?

 4        A.   There was a difference.  In the reports we --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're not invited to compare the reports,

 6     whether they were different or the same, but whether such reports --

 7     Mr. Traldi, perhaps you could clarify, you mean by "such reports,"

 8     reports about detention situations of non-Serbs?  Whether it was at the

 9     same time that you received reports, perhaps different, that wasn't the

10     question, about detention of non-Serbs in camps or centres.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't understand the

12     question.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Let me try and make it very simple.  This is dated July 11th;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And it reports the detention of large numbers of Muslims;

18     correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And we've just seen that on June 12th and June 30th, you received

21     reports in the BiH Presidency about the detention of Muslim civilians;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you said that during June you were receiving other such

25     reports from the media; right?

Page 23846

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And that's why, at the June 30th meeting, you were aware and you

 3     talked about the crimes that were being committed by the Serb side;

 4     right?

 5        A.   In what I read out, there is no mention of any crimes.  Inhumane

 6     conditions are discussed.

 7        Q.   You consider inhumane conditions not to be a crime?  The

 8     maintenance of detention centres for civilians with inhumane conditions,

 9     you consider that not to be a crime?

10        A.   You see, there is no room for me to take a personal stance on

11     this.  I'm only trying to say that if this report comes from the Serbian

12     police about their own conduct, then it is credible.  I can't know that

13     better than they did.  They knew what they were doing.

14        Q.   And so you don't dismiss Mr. Zupljanin's comments as propaganda,

15     do you?

16        A.   You see, since they are discussing what they were doing, it would

17     probably be ridiculous of me to say that they were launching propaganda

18     against themselves.  If Mr. Zupljanin is asserting this, he's actually

19     addressing the activities of his organisation, of his institution.  What

20     other reaction should I have?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The simple answer to the question was:  No, I do not

22     dismiss these comments as propaganda.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Just to close this topic, sir, you discuss in your statement your

25     knowledge of detention facilities operated by Muslims in which Serbs were

Page 23847

 1     detained, don't you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You do not discuss your knowledge of detention facilities

 4     operated by Serbs in which Muslims and Croats were detained, do you?

 5        A.   I repeat:  I was in Sarajevo.  In Sarajevo, Serbs did not keep

 6     Muslims in camps but the other way around.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you discuss knowledge of

 8     detention facilities operated by Serbs.  Is that in your statement or is

 9     that not in your statement?  That was the question.  There may be good

10     reasons for not having it in the statements because it didn't happen or

11     whatever, but the question was whether you address detention facilities

12     operated by Serbs in your statements.

13             Mr. Mladic, one more word aloud and this is the last warning.

14     Yes, yes, you know exactly what the consequences are.  The last word you

15     spoke allowed was "da" which means "yes," so you understood it.  And this

16     really is the last time.  I don't want to have any interference with the

17     testimony of a witness.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Let me put my question again, sir.  You do not discuss your

20     knowledge of detention facilities operated by Serbs in which Muslims and

21     Croats were detained, in your statement, do you?  Yes or no?

22        A.   I can only testify to what I have direct knowledge of.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, last time:  You're an intelligent man.  You

24     carefully listen to the question.  Otherwise, one of the risks is that if

25     you do not answer the questions put to you by the Prosecution and are

Page 23848

 1     always circumventing them, then your testimony, but then the whole of

 2     your testimony, might be given little or no weight.  You should be aware

 3     of that.  Apart from that, there is a duty to answer questions and not to

 4     comment on things that were not asked.  Is that clear to you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, it's very difficult for

 6     me to speak that way.  I'm not used to it.  I simply feel the need to

 7     explain things.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are not here to explain unless an

 9     explanation is asked by any question.  The simple question was:  Do you

10     address in your statement your knowledge of Serb-operated detention

11     facilities where others, other ethnicities, Muslims and/or Croats, were

12     detained?  Did you address that in your statement?  Later on, in

13     re-examination, Mr. Lukic will have ample opportunity to seek further

14     explanation if he thinks he would need it.  So therefore, don't start

15     explaining what you consider to be relevant but just answer the

16     questions.  If you're not used to it, please get used to it now.  Could

17     you please answer that question, whether you address it in your

18     statement.  Simple "yes" or "no" would do.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be marked

22     for identification pending CLSS reviewing the translation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 9723 receives number P6659,

25     Your Honours.

Page 23849

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P6659 is marked for identification pending

 2     verification of the translation.

 3             We take a break now, Mr. Traldi.

 4             Mr. Kecmanovic, you'll be escorted out of the courtroom.  We

 5     would like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past

 8     12.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think I set a deadline for the

12     16th of July for the tu quoque issue.  Now, could it be that one of those

13     witnesses will already be called on or before the 16th?  In that case,

14     for that witness, of course, we would like to receive your response or

15     your reply earlier.

16             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague Stojanovic just informed me that he

17     should be here on the 15th.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we would like to receive your response by

19     Monday.  That's the 14th.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I should say the reply.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Turning now to Sarajevo --

Page 23850

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you are going to turn to Sarajevo to the -- I

 2     have one question with in relation to what we discussed before the break.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  After you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, you said you received information by a

 5     person named Bosko Baskot.  Where did you meet him?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had known him from before the war

 7     in Sarajevo.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, when -- no, where did you meet him?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Belgrade.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What did he tell you about Keraterm?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On my request, he drafted a piece

12     of text in which I intervened.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Which I inserted in

14     my report.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What did he tell you about Keraterm?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't discuss it.  Since I was

17     asked by the Defence team in that case to say something about Prijedor,

18     and having no direct knowledge about it, I turned to Mr. Bosko Baskot,

19     asking him to write a short text in terms of how he saw it, and I simply

20     integrated his piece of text into my report.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Into which report?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where it appears for

23     the first time.  I don't recall any longer.  I don't remember what case

24     it was.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said earlier that you met him after you have

Page 23851

 1     testified in the Karadzic case.  Is that correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  There was a

 3     misunderstanding.  I said that after the Karadzic case, I was in

 4     Banja Luka.  While I was there, I heard from some people that things were

 5     not quite like Bosko wrote and in terms of what I had integrated in my

 6     text, in the sense that it was a bit blown out of proportion.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that other people told you.  You said:

 8     "I heard from some people."  Who are these people?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Well, I can't identify them

10     precisely.  These were not targeted discussions or conversations, as was

11     the case with Mr. Baskot, but en passant, when I met different people.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you give me one name?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You don't remember the names, but the information

15     you gained from them was so important that you changed your testimony

16     between the Karadzic testimony and this case; is that correct?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, I was present during such

18     conversations.  There was no targeted question in order to elicit a

19     response or an explanation, but these were just conversations, some of

20     which took place in cafes.  I never went to see someone with the specific

21     question in mind or no one came to see me but the topic simply surfaced

22     in a conversation among people.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  No further questions.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   I have a couple of questions to follow up on His Honour's.

Page 23852

 1     First, if I suggested that that was your report for the Kvocka case,

 2     would that refresh your recollection?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Second, did you note in that report that one section had been

 5     drafted by someone else that had not been reviewed by you?

 6        A.   I don't think I said any such thing.

 7        Q.   But that's the testimony you've provided just now; right?

 8        A.   Please let us be precise in terms of what I said.  I said that

 9     I asked Bosko Baskot to write that part and of course I read it before

10     integrating it into my next.

11        Q.   Let me ask a more precise question, then.  Did you note in that

12     report that one section had been written by someone else?

13        A.   Believe me, that I don't remember.

14        Q.   Well, we have it and we can check.  You said you read it.  Did

15     you edit it?

16        A.   I don't remember.  It was so many years ago.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I think that completes my questions on this topic

18     unless the Bench has anything else.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would like to perhaps put a bit more

20     pertinent question to you.  Do I understand your testimony well that you

21     submitted an expert report, part of which was written by a third person,

22     without notifying anyone of that and without having properly verified the

23     content, the accuracy, and the truth of what Mr. Baskot had written?  Is

24     that how I have to understand your testimony?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, I'd like to

Page 23853

 1     answer with more than a mere "yes" or "no," to explain in a few

 2     sentences, because I recall that well.  It was a general expert report.

 3     When I did that, the Defence team, however, asked me if possible to

 4     include the location of importance for that case, and I told them that I

 5     had no direct knowledge but that I could engage someone else similar to

 6     my capacity at the time as expert witness.  I told them I could engage

 7     someone I knew who hailed from that area.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  I'm not interested in any

 9     way in the discussions you may have had with whatever Defence.  I'm

10     interested to know whether you presented a report, part of which was not

11     authored by you but under your name and as part of your report, without

12     being able to verify the accuracy of what that other person wrote and

13     without mentioning that it was authored by someone else.  I'm only

14     interested in that.  How it all happened is of no -- I'm not interested

15     in.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had confidence in that person and

17     I integrated that text as my text.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the answer simply is "yes" because --

19     I didn't ask for an explanation.  You gave it voluntarily.  Because you

20     had confidence in a person.  Thank you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just follow up on one of Judge Fluegge's

23     questions.

24             Sir, Judge Fluegge asked you what Mr. Baskot told you, you said

25     he didn't tell you anything, you didn't discuss, he wrote a text for you.

Page 23854

 1     What did he write in the text?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That which is contained in the

 3     report.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What is it?  Tell us what it is he wrote.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we had that a minute ago on

 6     the screen.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You referred to the statement we had on our screen,

 8     or was that part of the report, Mr. Traldi?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President, that was part of the witness's

10     statement in the Karadzic case that addressed the report.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us now what exactly then it was

12     that Mr. Baskot told you, Witness, or wrote, the content?  Could you

13     reproduce what he said?  Or wrote?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometime ago you had on the screen

15     indicated what was written there and there was the sentence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We have never seen this report.  If it is exactly

17     the same, if you say what was shown to you as part of your statement

18     given in the Karadzic case, is that literally the same as we could find

19     in your report?  Is that exactly the same?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is so.  I cannot claim

21     with certainty but I think that was that.  That was it, yes.  I simply do

22     not have that text which refers to that.  I do believe that

23     Mr. Prosecutor has the material pertaining to the Kvocka case.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you wrote a report, you got information from

Page 23855

 1     different sources, one of which was Mr. Baskot.  We don't want to read

 2     the whole report to find out what Baskot wrote.  What is so difficult in

 3     you just telling us exactly what it is that Mr. Baskot said to you or

 4     wrote for you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can tell, you have the

 6     text, don't you?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Answer my question, please.  Don't talk to the

 8     Prosecutor.  Just tell us exactly what Baskot told -- wrote for you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly what we had on the screen

10     one hour ago, ending with --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What we had on the screen, we are told, is not the

12     report that you're talking about.  Mr. Traldi just told us that.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from memory I'll try to --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- tell you.  It was ten years ago,

16     I believe.  That those unsavorable incidents -- I think his note starts

17     with explaining that two Serbian policemen were killed by, as far as I

18     can remember, by a Muslim organised group.  So there were two policemen,

19     Serbian policemen, murdered.  After that, there were -- there was

20     repression against the Muslim population in Prijedor.  This pertains to

21     Prijedor.  And then he further noted that there was different forms of

22     repression ensuing.  This is as far as I remember.  Of course, repression

23     against the Muslim population, of course.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the Chamber would like to receive,

Page 23856

 1     either from Mr. Lukic or from you, the relevant parts of the report which

 2     was produced in the Kvocka case.

 3             Yes, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I can give you 65 ter numbers immediately.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In our case?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  In our case.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  In our case, okay.  If you would give that.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  1D2002 and 1D2003, and it's visible that those texts

 9     are different.  So the other part, I guess, and maybe Professor could

10     recognise it, is something that is added to the original expertise.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Just to be totally clear --

12             MR. LUKIC:  If I'm not wrong.

13             MR. TRALDI:  -- my understanding is that 1D2002 is a portion of

14     the expert report in the Kvocka case.  We have uploaded the entirety as

15     30955.  And 1D2003, unless I misread, is Mr. Kecmanovic's report in the

16     Simic case.  But I'm happy to have that double-checked.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We can check it only with Mr. Kecmanovic.  I cannot

18     tell that.

19             MR. TRALDI:  They do have the case numbers on them which makes it

20     a little bit easier.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Are these long reports or are they -- and

22     could the parties guide the Chamber in where to find in those reports the

23     relevant sections for the matters on which he now changed his testimony

24     compared with --

25             MR. TRALDI:  I'd suggest we try to do that at the break,

Page 23857

 1     Mr. President, if that's agreeable.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  Then one last question for the

 3     witness.  Could you give us a bit more information about the person --

 4     no, I don't need -- I don't need that.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Just to -- one more question from me on this topic, sir.  The

 7     information you included in the Kvocka report, though you didn't verify

 8     it, you did find it sufficiently reliable to provide to a court of law,

 9     right, in your capacity as an expert?

10        A.   It was a very small portion of the report, maybe 5 per cent, less

11     than 10 per cent, if I remember correctly, and I -- that person who did

12     that for me had my trust.

13        Q.   So for the record, you did, didn't you, find it sufficiently

14     reliable to provide to a court of law in your capacity as an expert?

15        A.   The same as I used other sources, I saw that as being

16     appropriate.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then ask you about other sources.  Are there

18     other parts of your report which were written by other persons without

19     stating that they were authored by others rather than by yourself?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then there were no other such

21     portions because the report concerns the general situation about Sarajevo

22     which I knew well.  This particular portion concerned a locality that

23     I was not familiar with.  And this is why I went about it in that way.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 23858

 1        Q.   In your report for the Simic case that addressed Bosanski Samac,

 2     there are sections that relate to events in that municipality.  Did you

 3     draft those yourself or did you have someone more familiar with

 4     Bosanski Samac draft them for you?

 5        A.   In that case, I spoke to people hailing from that area.

 6        Q.   And so for the record, is your answer that you drafted those

 7     sections yourself?

 8        A.   Yes, I consulted the people from the ground because I had not

 9     resided there myself.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, if you're done with this, I would have

11     one additional question as well.

12             Do you have a record of those interviews or conversations in the

13     Simic report, with whom exactly you spoke, what they said to you, and

14     what you used as a source for that report?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.  I, of course, had a

16     sort of an archive, but whether I still have it at home in Belgrade, I

17     don't know.  I can't testify one way or the other.  I'm not sure.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you in the report state clearly what kind of

19     sources you relied upon?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I did not list the literature

21     either.  This is the way an expert report -- this is not a scientific

22     paper where I would have to cite and quote and list literature,

23     et cetera.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Were there conversations in cafes, et cetera, as

25     well, as source of your information?

Page 23859

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met with those people in

 2     different places, wherever it was convenient for them, and in certain

 3     cases it happened to be in cafes, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do you think that -- have you mentioned

 5     that, that part of your sources were just conversations with ordinary

 6     locals in pubs?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, it was a long time ago.

 8     I can't remember those details, such -- I spoke with a number of people.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not my question but we can verify

10     that in the report.

11             Now, finally one question, you say:

12             "... this is not a scientific paper where I would have to cite

13     and quote and list literature, et cetera."

14             Do you agree with me that citing and quoting literature is

15     serving transparency and allows the reader to verify the accuracy of

16     sources?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.  But I was retained by the

18     Defence team.  I performed my mission in the way that they expected me to

19     do it.  And the Defence did not require of me to prepare my expert report

20     in that manner.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you consider it of same importance for a

22     court of law to have transparent information where the accuracy of the

23     sources can be verified?  Or do you consider that not important?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I don't know.  I'm not

25     a legal expert.  I simply conferred with the Defence team and I complied

Page 23860

 1     with their requests in terms of the form of the report, et cetera.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And thank you,

 5     Ms. Stewart.

 6        Q.   I do want to turn now to Sarajevo, and as an initial question,

 7     you mentioned in your statement detention centres for Serbs.  You've said

 8     you didn't mention detention centres where Muslims and Croats were held.

 9     Now, you heard about the detention centres where Serbs were held from

10     other people, didn't you?

11        A.   No, I had immediate knowledge, direct knowledge.

12        Q.   Now, what you --

13        A.   Excuse me, not for each and every one of them but for a large

14     number of them, I had immediate knowledge.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have paragraphs 45 and 46 of the witness's

16     statement on the screen?  It's -- D556 is the exhibit number.  And the

17     whole section starting at 44 is valuable so if we can keep the whole page

18     in the B/C/S on the left.

19        Q.   Now, I think, in paragraph 46 here, you suggest that you can talk

20     personally about one private prison in the basement of the Zagreb Hotel

21     but I put to you that in paragraph 45 --

22        A.   Not a hotel in Zagreb, the name of the hotel was Zagreb.

23        Q.   Agreed.  I put to you that in paragraph 45 you're speaking of

24     private prisons more generally and you're saying:

25             Based on the information we received from the people who came to

Page 23861

 1     us for help daily, we presented the specific complaints of Serbian

 2     citizens, which you also include in your statement.  And then you note

 3     that the government formed a mixed commission to deal with the matter.

 4             Now, my question is:  At least some of the information you've

 5     provided here is second-hand; correct?  It relates to complaints of

 6     Serbian citizens.

 7        A.   Those people would come to the building of the Presidency and as

 8     victims they provided first-hand accounts.

 9        Q.   So you received first-hand accounts.  You are -- the information

10     you're providing is not first-hand; right?

11        A.   Those with first-hand accounts would come to the building of the

12     Presidency, and they were there to testify if need be.

13        Q.   So I think I understand your answer to be that you are not

14     providing first-hand information yourself; right?  You're talking about

15     other people's experiences which you did not see, hear, smell or

16     otherwise experience yourself.

17        A.   You mean to say that I was not the immediate victim and therefore

18     that was not my experience or what?

19        Q.   I mean you're relating to us what other people told you.

20        A.   To you here, now.

21        Q.   In -- both in the statement and in your testimony, yes.

22        A.   That would be a logical trick, discussing what is first-hand and

23     what is second-hand.

24        Q.   I'd like to stay away from logical tricks and I'd like to stick

25     to the simple question I asked you.  You're talking about other people's

Page 23862

 1     experiences which you didn't experience yourself; right?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   And you've included what you heard about detention centres for

 4     Serbs but not what you heard about detention centres for Muslims or

 5     Croats in your statement; right?

 6        A.   There is a great deal of difference.  I -- here in this case,

 7     I saw with my own eyes because I would visit those centres, Hotel Zagreb,

 8     Hotel Europa, I can list a number of localities, people who had been

 9     mistreated there would approach me to tell me about that.  There were no

10     Muslim victims of such treatment in terms of arrests, detention,

11     investigation, mistreatment.  That kind of victim, when it came to

12     Muslims, did not exist in Sarajevo, at least in that part of Sarajevo

13     which was under the control of the central government, where I resided.

14        Q.   Well, let's turn to what you did experience in Sarajevo.  And you

15     experienced shelling, beginning in April and May of 1992, in Sarajevo;

16     right?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   The citizens of Sarajevo were terrified by the shelling; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you were terrified yourself, weren't you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You and the other citizens feared for your lives, didn't you?

23        A.   Well, you see, not feared for your lives but we were in danger

24     and we were afraid.  That's for sure.  Simply, when shelling started, we

25     would take shelter in houses, in basements.  Not a single building was

Page 23863

 1     destroyed, but there were cases where missiles would penetrate a building

 2     through the window.  But shelters in cellars, in basements, and edifices

 3     were shelter enough.  Of course, people had to go about their daily

 4     errands, and during such periods there was this danger, yes.

 5        Q.   So if were you on the street during a shelling, you feared for

 6     your life; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, in such a case people would enter the nearest building to

 8     avoid that immediate danger.

 9        Q.   And yet people were killed and wounded in shelling while you were

10     in Sarajevo; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   People were killed and wounded in May 1992 in shellings?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And continuing in June --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Continuing in June 1992?  People were killed and wounded in

17     shellings?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the Serbian artillery laid waste to the central and old part

20     of Sarajevo; correct?

21        A.   One couldn't say laid waste.  I myself lived in that

22     neighbourhood.  There were many buildings that were hit, their facades

23     were hit, but you couldn't say that the centre of the town was laid waste

24     to.  I lived all my life there.  I had lived all my life there and

25     I lived through that period there in Sarajevo.  Those missiles were not

Page 23864

 1     such that they would destroy a building.

 2        Q.   I don't want to quibble about specific language, but you yourself

 3     have written that the superior Serb artillery laid waste to the central

 4     and old part of Sarajevo, haven't you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I just have to intervene because of the

 8     translation.  It was differently translated so that's why now you have

 9     "yes" unlike before "laid waste" --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  That is text that exists in both

11     languages?

12             MR. TRALDI:  Unfortunately that report, the Office of the

13     Prosecutor only has a copy of the English version, and so I don't have

14     the original B/C/S.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see that is what report, then, exactly?

16             MR. TRALDI:  We can call up the specific page if it would assist,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think if it's in e-court.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30955.  Now, for the B/C/S we

20     only have the section dealing specifically with Prijedor municipality on

21     the left.  For the English we have a more complete report.  Could we have

22     page 29 in the English, please?

23             And I don't have in my notes where it appears on the page.  Can

24     we perhaps turn to the next -- actually before we do, sorry, one second.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 23865

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Let's turn to the top of page 30.  And we see a

 2     number, 29, in the bottom right-hand corner which apparently confused my

 3     notes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps if you read it again slowly and then

 5     Mr. Lukic will carefully listen.  If there is any translation issue, we

 6     would like to deal with that once the witness has left the courtroom.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I'm interested in the second sentence:

 8             "The superior Serbian artillery laid waste the central and old

 9     part of the city."

10             Just that clause of it.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Which paragraph, sorry, in English?

12             MR. TRALDI:  It's the top paragraph under "Izetbegovic's martyred

13     Olympic city," and it's the second sentence.  I'll read it again so you

14     can hear the translation.

15             "The superior Serbian artillery laid waste the central and old

16     part of the city."

17             MR. LUKIC:  You are aware that you cannot compare it with the

18     B/C/S version on the left-hand side.  It's not the same text, you know.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I've put that on the record, I think, yeah.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Because here it's about Prijedor, on the left-hand

21     side --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness should not read -- the witness should

23     just carefully listen to what Mr. Traldi reads about the superior Serb

24     artillery.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, only today during the translation "laid

Page 23866

 1     waste" was translated in two different ways --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- so that's maybe what created the confusion.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you are most happy with the

 5     translation -- the last interpretation?  Then we would ask Mr. Traldi to

 6     read it again.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Very rarely I'm on B/C/S channel and I happened to be

 8     at that moment.  Lately I was not listening to B/C/S.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to have Mr. Lukic monitor it while I read

10     it one more time if that would --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please read it again.

13             MR. TRALDI:  "The superior Serbian artillery laid waste the

14     central and old part of the city."

15             MR. LUKIC:  This was the third translation of this and Mr. Traldi

16     is using the same term all the time.  I have to say that, but the

17     translation --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  During the next break, that one line will be -- in

19     one way or another be verified as far as translation is concerned.  And

20     we kindly ask the assistance of CLSS to do so because this is exactly

21     what we want to avoid, that is that during live interpretation, which is

22     a different thing from sitting behind your desk with five dictionaries

23     and checking every word in great detail, but perhaps for that one line,

24     we could have that done in the next break.

25             Perhaps we could take that break now, Mr. Traldi, so that you

Page 23867

 1     could immediately start if - which I'm still hopeful to expect - CLSS

 2     could assist us.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I hope so too.  I wouldn't want to translate it

 4     myself, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's very wise.

 6             Mr. Usher, could you -- we take a break, Witness, and we would

 7     like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we resume at half past 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 1.11 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.35 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While the witness will be brought in, the Chamber

13     highly appreciates that CLSS was quite willing to help us, but of course

14     there is one remaining problem.  That is that we don't have the original.

15     What we could do is to look at the English version, and that will be done

16     I do understand within the next 15 minutes, that we then see whether

17     there is one verified B/C/S translation for that.  Later, you always can

18     verify, Mr. Lukic, whether that corresponds with the B/C/S original which

19     is not available, I do understand, to the Prosecution but most likely has

20     to be found somewhere in the archives of the Kvocka case or -- unless you

21     have it.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I was on Kvocka case but obviously Mr. Kecmanovic

23     testified for somebody else because I left that case immediately after

24     Kvocka finished his defence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But sooner or later I take that we'll be able to

Page 23868

 1     find a copy of that report, a full copy, in B/C/S.  That's -- but let's

 2     proceed at this moment on the basis of --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  One exercise I would offer too, we can ask the

 4     witness which of the translations offered to him best describes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, there's no way that --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Before he is here maybe you want to hear which

 7     translations he received.  Always Mr. Traldi used "laid waste."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  First translation was "razed to the ground;" second

10     one is "damaged."  To the first one he answered no.  So although the

11     question was "laid waste," the answer was "no."  And then "laid waste"

12     again, but now it was "damaged," and he said "yes."  So that's what

13     happened.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, we leave it to that.  And Mr. Traldi has an

15     opportunity to put the question now, in 10, 15 minutes from now, guided

16     by what CLSS -- but still not being sure that we have the -- whether it

17     corresponds with the original.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             MR. TRALDI:  Until we get the confirmed translation of that

22     sentence, I'm going to ask a couple of other questions but about the same

23     page of that report.  So if we could have it back up.

24        Q.   Now, the Serb artillery was superior to Muslim artillery; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23869

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, not to be disturbed, we should remove

 2     the B/C/S version on the screen because this page is not translated.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  That sounds like a very good suggestion,

 4     Your Honour.

 5        Q.   And the Muslims could not threaten the Serbian artillery

 6     emplacements around the city, could they?

 7        A.   They could threaten them.  One can clearly see it if we take

 8     Grbavica, for example.  That part of Sarajevo was held by Serbs.

 9     Grbavica was destroyed although not to the extent the centre of town was.

10     When I went there, I could see actually that the degree of destruction

11     was very high or perhaps the degree of damage, to be quite precise.

12     There was firing both ways.

13        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to ask a couple of questions to follow up on your

14     answer.  First, you say the degree of destruction was very high.  Are you

15     talking about Grbavica or about the centre of the city?

16        A.   Both.

17        Q.   And the centre of the city, you said, Grbavica wasn't destroyed

18     to the extent the centre of town was, so Grbavica --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So --

21        A.   No, no.  I didn't say that.  I said that both were destroyed.

22     They are both part of the urban area.  Pale is further away but Grbavica

23     is still an integral part of Sarajevo.

24        Q.   I'd like to stay away from geography.  At lines 21 and 22, you

25     were recorded to say -- lines 21 and 22, temporary page 69 --

Page 23870

 1        A.   If I may I'll explain.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't interrupt Mr. Traldi.  Wait for his

 3     question and then answer it.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  At lines 21 and 22 of temporary transcript page 69,

 5     you were recorded to say --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry.  I'm really sorry.  I would ask for this

 7     audio to be checked.  I think that the witness said the opposite what was

 8     recorded here.  That's what I heard.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look.  We are talking about page --

10             MR. LUKIC:  69, line 21 and 22, the end of line 21.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you -- Mr. Traldi, perhaps you put the

12     same question again to the witness.  That is:

13             "And the Muslims could not threaten the Serbian artillery

14     emplacements around the city, could they?"

15             That was the question.  And we read as an answer:

16             "They could threaten them.  One can clearly see it if we take

17     Grbavica, for example.  That part of Sarajevo was held by Serbs.

18     Grbavica was destroyed although not to the extent the centre of the town

19     area."

20             That is what was -- appears on our screen as what you are

21     recorded -- what you -- what you said as recorded.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

23        Q.   And is the President's recitation just now, is that a correct

24     recitation of your evidence in response to my question, sir?

25        A.   It is not precise.  May I repeat the answer?

Page 23871

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may repeat the answer.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The centre of Sarajevo is a rather

 3     large area.  Grbavica is part of the urban area but it is only a

 4     neighbourhood of Sarajevo.  The damage in that small neighbourhood were

 5     more visible than if you looked at the destruction spread out across the

 6     entire urban area.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- the witness now apparently makes a

 8     comparison between Grbavica and the totality of the town.  Not a

 9     comparison between Grbavica and the old part of town.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'm asking specifically for a comparison between

11     Grbavica and Bascarsija, which is what I think you were -- which is what

12     I think I'd been asking for before.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to be very careful we are talking about old

14     part of the town because you could refer to the old part of town, if I

15     understand well - and I'm also looking at you, Mr. Lukic - as being the

16     old city centre including Bascarsija or what is called Stari Grad which

17     means, if I understand it well, the old town which is a municipality in

18     the Sarajevo area.  So whenever we use the word "old town," we should be

19     very careful to be precise in what we refer to.

20             And I do understand, Mr. Traldi, that you wanted the witness to

21     compare the damage done to Grbavica on the one hand side and the old city

22     centre including Bascarsija on the other side.  Is that correct?

23             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you compare that, the damage done to those two

25     parts of the town, Grbavica and the old city centre including Bascarsija?

Page 23872

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  There was more destruction at

 2     Grbavica because it is a smaller area, and the fire was focused on that

 3     small area.  As regards Stari Grad, including Bascarsija where I lived,

 4     there was less destruction.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Stari Grad understood as limited to the old city

 6     centre, therefore --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Not the municipality.  The old city centre including

 9     Bascarsija, the old part of the town, not the entire opstina or

10     municipality of Stari Grad but just the city centre, the densely

11     populated city centre.  Could you please compare these two.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One could see the damage more, it

13     was more visible in Grbavica than one could see in the old nucleus of the

14     city, as you put it precisely.  Not all of the Stari Grad municipality

15     but the inner city, including Bascarsija.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just ask a question:  Was this the case

17     notwithstanding the superior Serbian artillery?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, I do not understand.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This statement that is being quoted to you, this

20     sentence, starts by saying:  "The superior Serbian artillery laid

21     waste" -- okay, I'm not talking about waste.  Now, when you say "superior

22     Serbian artillery," superior to what?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As compared with the artillery

24     nests existing in the very centre of Sarajevo.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question then is:  Notwithstanding the fact

Page 23873

 1     that the Serbian artillery was superior, are you saying that it caused

 2     less damage than inferior artillery?  Yes or no?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's your answer, sir?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you said "no" as an answer to the question

 7     that -- Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, in answer to my question a couple of moments ago you said,

10     yes, the Muslims could threaten Serbian artillery emplacements around the

11     city and then you mentioned Grbavica.  Did you mean Grbavica, a

12     neighbourhood, or Grbavica as -- or to suggest that Grbavica was a

13     location of Serbian artillery emplacements?

14        A.   I don't know if it was or not.  I don't know if there was a

15     Serbian artillery in Grbavica but I do know that Grbavica was targeted

16     from Sarajevo city, from the town itself.

17        Q.   Let me ask the question that I'd meant to ask then very

18     specifically.  The Muslim army was not able to threaten the Serbian

19     artillery emplacements positioned on hills around the edge of the city,

20     were they?

21        A.   As far as I know, although I am no military expert, I think they

22     did threaten those emplacements and they could do so.  The distance was

23     the same, even if one looked from the Serbian positions or the other way

24     around.  If they could reach one another from one direction, they could

25     have reached one another from the other.  The distance was the same.

Page 23874

 1        Q.   Looking at your expert report that's still on the screen in front

 2     of us and setting aside the geometry of artillery firing, the last

 3     sentence of the first paragraph starts:

 4             "Of course, not even when weapons started arriving in larger

 5     quantities from Islamic countries," then it explains some ways that they

 6     arrived, and then it ends, "was it enough for the Muslim army to threaten

 7     the Serbian artillery emplacements positioned on hills around the edge of

 8     the city."

 9             So what you've said in that report is that even after receiving

10     additional arms, the Serbian artillery -- the Muslim army, rather, was

11     not able to threaten the Serbian artillery emplacements; right?

12        A.   Can I have a look at the sentence itself?

13        Q.   It's the last sentence of the first paragraph.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You can read English, don't you, Witness?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I have it in B/C/S?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it's not there in B/C/S at this moment.  So

17     you're able to read English?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll slowly read the whole of the sentence.  It

20     reads as follows:

21             "Of course, not even when weapons started arriving in larger

22     quantities from Islamic countries, in humanitarian aid containers which

23     landed unobstructed at UN-controlled Sarajevo airport or when they dug a

24     'secret' passage under the airport tarmac, was it enough for the Muslim

25     army to threaten the Serbian artillery emplacements positioned on hills

Page 23875

 1     around the edge of the city."

 2             So even when those larger quantities arrived, they were not able,

 3     it was not enough for the Muslim army to have threatened the Serbian

 4     artillery emplacements positioned on the hills.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand the question now.

 6     This issue of threatening had to do with breaking through the ring.  The

 7     Muslim forces in Sarajevo tried incessantly to break through the

 8     artillery encirclement around Sarajevo.  In that sense, I said it wasn't

 9     enough.  They kept trying and never succeeded throughout the war.  There

10     were constant attacks from Sarajevo, from the city towards the outer

11     ring, and even the weapons that arrived did not assist in that regard.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Now, we've received from CLSS a translation of the

13     sentence in question and I'd ask the usher's assistance to distribute a

14     copy to the Defence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  For as good as it is.  Perhaps -- we may not

16     conclude the testimony of the witness today.  Perhaps you could give it a

17     try to find the original B/C/S version.  Not to say that I stop you here

18     at this moment but that at least when the witness is still there that we

19     have it verified.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Unless --

21        Q.   Witness, you don't have a copy of your Kvocka expert report with

22     you, do you?

23        A.   No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but archives in this Tribunal might.  Was it

25     presented as an exhibit in the Kvocka case, Mr. -- at least it's

Page 23876

 1     worthwhile finding out.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  In this case?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not in this case but in the Kvocka case.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Kvocka case.  I understood that Professor was expert

 5     witness for the Defence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so therefore it must be somewhere.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I left before anybody else except my client started

 8     his defence so --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- no, no, I'm not addressing you, but if an

10     expert report is admitted into evidence, then it usually is somewhere

11     available, either in electronic form or in hard copy form, and then we

12     could get hold of it and avoid further discussions on it.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I agree that we are in an unusual situation,

14     Mr. President.  I think what I meant to be suggesting was we've done

15     fairly extensive searches of the electronic databases without finding it

16     and the same occurred before the witness testified in the Karadzic case.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And it was not found?

18             MR. TRALDI:  That's right.  It's not on JDB in the B/C/S, for

19     instance.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  In hard copy?  If it has an exhibit number?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I haven't been into the archives so we can check

22     that overnight.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we continue now, as in the way you

24     suggested, and you make an effort to find it in the archives.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Can Mr. Lukic confirm he's had a chance to review

Page 23877

 1     the translation that was passed over?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I think this is the most harsh translation possible

 3     for -- possible for this term --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  For your case you mean?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Not for my case.  I wouldn't say it's the proper

 6     translation either.  But you can --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But this now has been verified, the one line,

 8     and if you want to have it verified again, tomorrow we will hear more.

 9     We will proceed on this basis which is the best we have at this moment.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.  Actually I think it might be valuable for a

12     copy to be provided to the booth, if it hasn't been.  So that it can be

13     read to the witness in this format.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the booth is not yet informed about this.

15     Meanwhile you can perhaps continue with another topic, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I can.

17        Q.   Speaking of the balance of forces around Sarajevo, you've

18     mentioned the Serb artillery was superior.  It's right that the VRS also

19     had an advantage in weapons taken over from the JNA; right?

20        A.   It had officers who were better educated, and it had a better

21     commander.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness, the question was not -- it was about

23     weapons.  A commander is not a weapon.  Trained staff is not a weapon.

24     Please answer the question.  And don't put forward what seems to be your

25     case rather than -- yes, Mr. --

Page 23878

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think the question is actually not

 2     properly posed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, has an advantage that then [overlapping

 4     speakers] --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The witness should first be asked whether he knows

 6     what was left to the VRS, what was left to Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that may --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  He's asked to compare.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the witness talks about persons.  The

10     question was, right or wrong, was clearly about weapons.

11             MR. LUKIC:  We object to the form of the question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You should have done that to start with

13     instead of intervening when I admonished the witness that he should focus

14     on the question that is asked.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you please introduce the matter by

17     asking the witness what he knows about it.

18             MR. TRALDI:  If I might, I'd call up page 33 of this document.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. TRALDI:  If we could zoom in towards the bottom of the page.

21             So I'm reading again from the witness's expert report and the

22     paragraph right above the words "the NATO intervention and the Dayton

23     Agreement."  The last sentence reads:

24             "Their advantage in weapons taken over from the JNA and in an

25     officer corps trained in one of the best armies in the region gave

Page 23879

 1     General Ratko Mladic a substantial edge in the battlefield, while the

 2     Croats and particularly the Muslims earned the status of the weaker side

 3     which the big, strong world had the moral obligation to help survive."

 4        Q.   So that's the foundation for my question.  And I put to you

 5     again, sir, the VRS had an advantage in weapons taken over from the JNA;

 6     right?

 7        A.   If it's not a problem, I would like to ask you to put forward a

 8     statement in the form of a question and not as a statement, affirmative

 9     statement.  If it's not problem, of course.

10        Q.   I'll put again to you, the VRS had an advantage in weapons taken

11     over from the JNA; right?

12        A.   This is how I -- what I wrote, yes.

13        Q.   And this is a portion of the report that you drafted, right?

14     I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the

15     record.

16        A.   That's correct, yes.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I think the booth has the translation that's been

18     provided by CLSS so if we could go back now to page 30 at the top.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just for your information, the Chamber is

20     informed about the three ways in which -- the three different versions

21     that -- just for you to know that we are aware of it.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:  So I'm going to be reading again the second sentence

24     of the top paragraph:

25             "The superior Serbian artillery laid waste the central and old

Page 23880

 1     part of the city."

 2        Q.   That's right, isn't it?  That's what happened.

 3        A.   That happened, but there is this word "damage," "destroy," "laid

 4     waste," therefore it's relative or could be relative.  But the gist of

 5     that sentence stands.

 6        Q.   And the Serbian forces randomly showered Sarajevo with shells

 7     from the surrounding hills, didn't they?

 8        A.   I believe that in the Krajisnik case there was a misunderstanding

 9     concerning that particular point.  In Sarajevo, we could not tell

10     incoming and outgoing detonations apart, and whatever explosion we heard,

11     we thought that it was coming from the Serbian side.  Only later did we

12     find out that this was not so.

13             Another thing I would like to point out is that this was not

14     drafted as a report for the Court.  It's an authored paper, text, which

15     may be imprecise in parts.

16        Q.   Well, let's talk about what you said in the Krajisnik case about

17     the question I just asked you.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 30941?

19        Q.   That's your Krajisnik testimony.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'm looking for page 173 at the bottom.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Tieger's question begins at the very last line of this

22     page and he says:

23             "Isn't it correct, and haven't you said previously, that

24     Serbian" - we will turn the page - "forces randomly showered Sarajevo

25     with shells from the surrounding hills?  Back to that question?"

Page 23881

 1             And you answered:  "Yes.  That was my impression."

 2             That was your testimony, wasn't it?

 3        A.   I emphasise this was my impression of a person who at that time

 4     resided and lived in Sarajevo, and this is why I have to emphasise this

 5     difference between an impression and fact.

 6        Q.   That was your experience; right?

 7        A.   Impressions.

 8        Q.   And it was -- it was living with --

 9        A.   Impression.

10        Q.   It was living with that sense that your city was being randomly

11     showered with shells that terrified you, as you said earlier, wasn't it?

12        A.   This is what it also reads, yes.  Of course.  How could it be any

13     different?

14        Q.   Now, I want to turn last today to one other topic related to

15     Sarajevo.  Maybe it will be brief enough that I'll get to do one more

16     thing after, but you assert in paragraph 52 of your statement that

17     General MacKenzie made allegations about Muslims shooting at their own

18     people in Sarajevo.  And you state in paragraph 52:

19             "I have not read MacKenzie's book and I do not know what evidence

20     he presented."

21             Is that correct?

22        A.   I did not need MacKenzie's book.  I was in Sarajevo when he

23     issued that statement at a press conference in Sarajevo.

24        Q.   So I'll take from your answer that you have not read his book;

25     right?

Page 23882

 1        A.   I have not.

 2        Q.   I ask because in your testimony in the Krajisnik case, eight

 3     years ago, it was put to you that General MacKenzie had denied, both in

 4     his book and in his interviews, making exactly the suggestions that

 5     you've repeated in your statement.  And you said you hadn't read his book

 6     and didn't know what it said.

 7             Now, you still don't know what General MacKenzie has said about

 8     this in his book, do you?

 9        A.   I know reliably what he said when he was in Sarajevo at the time,

10     and that statement of his caused and engendered a great deal of

11     dissatisfaction on the part of Muslim politicians in the audience.  What

12     he stated later in his life, that I don't know, or what he stated in the

13     book.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The simple question was that you still do not know

15     what General MacKenzie has said about this in his book.  So what he

16     states in his book.  Why not answer that question to start with?  No, you

17     don't know what he said about it in his book.  Is that your answer?

18     Because you were not asked about what he said in Sarajevo.  You were

19     asked about what he said about this in his book.  Do you know it or do

20     you still do not know it?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That would have been the short answer to the

23     question which was very clear.  Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 159 of this same document.  I'm

25     looking for line 16 and below.

Page 23883

 1        Q.   What was put to you was:

 2             "That's absolutely false and you know it, sir.  General MacKenzie

 3     has been at great pains, both in his book and his interviews, to make

 4     clear that he was not in a position to assert that Bosnian Muslim forces

 5     were responsible for such atrocities.  You know that."

 6             And in the answer, you said you hadn't read his book and you

 7     didn't know what it says there, but you remembered an interview he had

 8     given in Sarajevo during the war.  So you were told then that were you

 9     mischaracterising his position based on his book and his interviews after

10     the war and you haven't checked to see whether that's true in the

11     intervening eight years, have you?

12        A.   Your Honours, I have one intervention here.  I do not accept this

13     way of discussing these matters.  I came here on a voluntary basis to

14     help the Court and whenever I left the Court, I received thanks about

15     helping the Court.  This time round, the Prosecutor claims that I know

16     that I said I did not know.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that you do not feel comfortable and

18     happy with what happens at this moment.  If there are reasons to

19     intervene, the Defence will do so.  The Defence has called you as a

20     witness.  It is the Chamber who controls and who supervises the

21     examination of witnesses.  If we consider that something inappropriate

22     happens, we will intervene.  If we overlook something, Mr. Lukic will

23     intervene.  The best way of assisting the Court, and that is you said you

24     wanted to do, is to answer the questions, having carefully listened to

25     them and directly.  That is what you're expected to do.

Page 23884

 1             Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   I think you recall the question, sir.  I'll put to you again that

 4     you haven't checked to see whether your description of

 5     General MacKenzie's position is correct in the eight years since your

 6     Krajisnik testimony, have you?

 7        A.   Just a minute ago, you claimed that I knew that and that

 8     I claimed that I didn't know it, and this is something completely

 9     different.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please answer the question.  Have you verified it in

11     those eight years or have you not?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not verified.  I had no need

13     to do so.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the answer to the question.  It's even more,

15     whether there was any need is a different matter.

16             Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'm about to turn to a different topic.

18     I note that it's about time to end for the day.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will adjourn for the day.

20             Witness, before you leave the courtroom I would like to instruct

21     you that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether

22     already given or still to be given, and we would like to see you back

23     tomorrow morning.

24             And I give you the following thought to consider.  That is that

25     you just should answer the questions and not what is relevant and what

Page 23885

 1     needs to be explained is for the parties primarily, and to some extent

 2     also for the Chamber, to determine.  As a witness, you have to follow

 3     this determination of what we consider relevant and let's not forget,

 4     it's Prosecution, it's also Defence, and it's also the Chamber.  Please

 5     keep that in mind because this Chamber has observed that you are in 60,

 6     70 per cent of the cases, you're either not directly answering the

 7     question or that you're adding a lot of things that were not asked.  If

 8     it's relevant, further questions will follow, either by the Prosecution

 9     or by the Defence.

10             We would like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30.  You may

11     follow the usher.

12                           [The witness stands down]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

14     Friday, the 11th of July, at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom,

15     I.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of July,

18                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.