Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23971

 1                           Monday, 14 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The witness may be brought in.

11             The Chamber received information about the agreement between

12     Prosecution and Defence on P06670 which was MFI'd.  The Prosecution, as

13     I understand, has informed the Defence that it relies on the accompanying

14     transcripts as uploaded into e-court for the video-clip and not on the

15     text shown on the clip itself.  And under those circumstances, we

16     understand that the Defence withdraws its objections to the exhibit and,

17     therefore, P06670 is admitted into evidence.

18             We continue with hearing the testimony of Mr Kecmanovic.  As

19     I understand, he has agreed or at least he has offered to reappear today

20     rather than later in August or in September.  And you needed two

21     sessions, Mr. Lukic?

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24                           WITNESS:  NENAD KECMANOVIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 23972

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr Kecmanovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber appreciated your offer to continue to

 4     give your testimony today and that you have given priority to our

 5     proceedings over your personal matters.  It's highly appreciated.  I also

 6     would like to remind mind you again that you're still bound by the solemn

 7     declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.  And

 8     Mr. Lukic will now re-examine you.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Professor.  We would like to thank

11     you on our part for delegating your obligations to others.  We know it

12     was important to you and we hope that we will complete your examination

13     today.  I will start where we left off on Friday when you heard the

14     intercept, and I would like to ask you the following question.  Did you

15     have a very sharp tongue and an even more critical pen to all -- when

16     dealing with all three sides?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you have any difficulties because of that?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D2993 in e-court,

21     please.

22        Q.   We will see when this document comes up these were the notices of

23     death for Radovan Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic,

24     Ljubo Bosiljcic, Nenad Kecmanovic, Velibor Ostojic, and Nenad Pejic.

25     Which ethnicity are all these people?

Page 23973

 1        A.   Serb.

 2        Q.   In 1991 and 1992, were all these people living?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Nenad Kecmanovic mentioned here, who is that?

 5        A.   That's me.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in the -- on the

 7     lower left corner of this document.  Can you see this?  Would you be able

 8     to read what it says there?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  We need top part of the document.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] If you're unable to make this out, I know that

11     it's difficult to read the B/C/S, but the point is that your death is

12     reported in a sort of pejorative way, making fun of it, correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   It says that the place of grief has been closed for repair and

15     the place of joy, Zetra, 21, and then it goes on to say who the guests

16     were, the names of Halid Beslic, the red apples, the blue orchestra,

17     Merlin, Oliver Dragojevic, Vera Svoboda, Kico Slabinac, and so on and so

18     forth.  Who are these people mentioned here?

19        A.   They are entertainers, people from show business, singers.

20        Q.   Would you call this a form of PR or propaganda?

21        A.   Well, I would rather define it as a rather tasteless expression

22     of enmity or hostility towards all the people who are mentioned here, and

23     I could also add that this was published in a public paper called "Vox"

24     that was edited by the sons of the Sarajevo mayor.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23974

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this

 2     document, with your leave.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I object as to well for several reasons

 4     but primarily relevance.  The point of the intercept had to do with the

 5     deal that was made in Belgrade.  This is not responsive to that point of

 6     cross-examination.  This also seems to lack any relevance with respect to

 7     the matters before this Chamber.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, on the contrary, we need this document

 9     to show what kind of papers were issued in Sarajevo, and what was the

10     atmosphere, and Mr. Donja leaned heavily on Sarajevo newspapers too in

11     his expert analysis.  So we think that it's actually one of the crucial

12     documents in this case.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The document deals with how people are treated in

15     publications, and the objection is denied.

16             Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2933 [sic] receives number D558, Your

18     Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D558 is admitted.

20             MR. LUKIC:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, my learned friend from the

22     Prosecution is now referring to the deal that was agreed in Belgrade.

23     Did you have to be granted any kind of asylum at that time in order to be

24     able to enter Serbia or was anyone able to enter Serbia irrespective of

25     their ethnicity or even the passport?

Page 23975

 1        A.   Certainly I could and I went to Belgrade in the meantime on two

 2     occasions in fact -- no, actually once during the war, before that.

 3        Q.   Were you issued any papers, an asylum?  Were you made to ask for

 4     permission to actually move to Belgrade?

 5        A.   No.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you for a short moment to clarify

 7     the 65 ter number of D558.  On the transcript, we have two different

 8     numbers, on page 2, line 19, it's 1D2993 and on page 4, line 11 it's

 9     1D2933.

10             Madam Registrar, could you check that, please?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number is 1D2993, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could we now see P6658 in

14     e-court, please.  Obviously I have a wrong number here.  I will get back

15     to this at a later point.

16             So we're not discussing this document.

17        Q.   You were asked about your claim relating to the session of the

18     Presidency, about the Serbs shelling the city of Sarajevo

19     indiscriminately.  Now, at the sessions of the Presidency, were you

20     informed, in any manner, by the Muslim side where the positions were in

21     the city itself?

22        A.   No, never.  I only knew this because I had insight into this.

23     That was the only way I learned of it.

24        Q.   Would you have been able, then, to know whether the Serbs were

25     actually firing at a military target or whether it was indiscriminate?

Page 23976

 1        A.   Well, they fired actually at two locations near the facilities

 2     where I was, and I was able to see those premises at all times.  The

 3     former command of the Territorial Defence of the city of Sarajevo was one

 4     of them.  During the war that was the headquarters of the 1st Corps of

 5     the BH Army, and this was in the midst of the Ciglana neighbourhood.

 6     Now, those people who know the layout of that area will know where that

 7     is.

 8             Now, the second artillery post was in the tunnel that was at the

 9     other end of the Ciglana neighbourhood.  The artillery weapons were, in

10     fact, emplaced or placed on a mobile base.  They would open fire and then

11     withdraw to the tunnel, and then go -- get out of the tunnel to open fire

12     and come back.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now with reference to P6650, that is another record

14     of a session of the Presidency, so I would like to ask you to put the

15     same question in reference to that.  We won't pull up the document again

16     but you said there that you were never informed on the BH Army positions

17     at those Presidency sessions.  This was only a reference for the

18     Trial Chamber to draw their attention to this document as well.

19             Now, with the assistance of Ms. Stewart, I would like to show an

20     excerpt from the same video that we saw on Friday.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That's P2004.

22        Q.   The Prosecution showed you a portion of the video from 9 minutes,

23     56 seconds, to --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters request, could you please

25     repeat the references on the video?

Page 23977

 1             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Now, we will see only 47 seconds.

 2     From 9 minutes 57 seconds to 10 minutes 43 seconds.

 3             [In English] If we can start please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Your previous reference was not fully understood by

 5     the interpreters, Mr. Lukic.  I don't know whether that is repaired by

 6     your new reference.  Otherwise, please repeat the old one.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's not heard -- the same video from 9 minutes 29

 8     seconds to 9 minutes 56 seconds.  And we will just continue where we

 9     stopped on Friday.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.  Let's look at the video.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12             Can we start, please.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we play it again so that we have

15     interpretation.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Serious situations call for serious

18     words.  How will you prevent everybody from starting killing everybody

19     else in Bosnia and Herzegovina?  How can we stop the war in Croatia,

20     especially in the border areas where Serbs and Croats are in contact?

21     Whose two political wills are in conflict and weren't realised in a legal

22     manner which is the only which they should be realised.

23             "From now on, gentlemen, I will ask for the floor on a regular

24     basis until you take this matter of independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina

25     off the agenda.  That is my right.  I want to send a message to Muslims,

Page 23978

 1     Serb, and Croatian people that you want to achieve something in Europe

 2     that you have no right to.  Thank you."

 3             MR. LUKIC:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, you said that you understood these

 5     words of Mr. Karadzic's as a cautionary note, warning?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you stand by that, even after hearing this portion?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would request for a short clip

10     to be shown from this same video, from 5 minutes 57 seconds to 6 minutes

11     12 seconds.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We kindly request a

13     reference for this portion.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the interpreters ask for a reference.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It's 5 minutes 57 seconds to 6 minutes 12 seconds.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  We do not have those notations on the

17     transcript.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  On the transcript the interpreters cannot find

19     it in this way.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I know it's on the second page in B/C/S.  We can have

21     the transcript, but then we won't have this video now.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the interpreters would be able to find it,

23     then we could proceed as you started.

24             MR. LUKIC:  It's very, very short.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us the first words so that the

Page 23979

 1     interpreters are better able to find the relevant portion?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] [No Interpretation] [In English] In

 3     B/C/S it's the last third of the second page.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the interpreters have found it.  Let's

 5     play the video.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters have not found it.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Sorry, then I misunderstood the body language.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  We have found it now, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Let's watch the video.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. LUKIC:  So can we play it for the second time so we receive

12     the translation.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] We can agree not try to stop you, to

15     leave Yugoslavia by using the plebiscite, but through the same plebiscite

16     and the same right we shall prevent you to take us out of Yugoslavia.

17     Here, gentlemen, from the SDA, in our conversations and even in the

18     commission, it was said..."

19             MR. LUKIC:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, is this position of

21     President Karadzic, and was that the position of the SDS and of the

22     Serbian side in parliament?  Namely, that they didn't want to impose

23     their solution on the other two peoples but that they were just seeking

24     to protect their own right to self-determination?

25        A.   Yes, exactly.

Page 23980

 1        Q.   What is the difference of a plebiscite of the people and a

 2     referendum?

 3        A.   In practical terms, it is the same thing.  Both terms are used in

 4     almost all the media.  There are some minor differences but basically it

 5     is the same term, practically synonymous.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The mike is not on.  Could counsel please turn

 8     on his mike.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You were shown these two slips of paper from the plebiscite, two

11     ballots from the plebiscite of the Serbian people.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see on the screen

13     T6661 [as interpreted] and T6662 [as interpreted] in B/C/S at the same

14     time on the screen, please?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you say T or did you say --

16             MR. LUKIC:  P.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P.

18             MR. LUKIC:  P.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Obviously we have to wait a bit.

21        Q.   Can you remember this?  Can you recall this without the ballot

22     slips?  Was the question basically the same or was it different?

23        A.   In terms of content, in terms of substance, the question was

24     exactly the same.

25        Q.   All right.  Let us continue.  On page --

Page 23981

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have a look at it again so that we --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Then we can have in English maybe just for Your

 3     Honours so that --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so that we can compare the text.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Or if it's hard to get both -- okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I think we might be able to manage.  If you

 7     would just give us time to read the question exactly.

 8             Could you explain that, Witness, that asking someone whether he's

 9     in favour of a decision already taken is the same as asking someone

10     whether he would -- in favour of a certain thing still to happen?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I could see, the

12     difference between these two ballot slips:  In the one which is intended

13     for Serbian, Serb voters, they are invoking the decision of the assembly

14     of the Serbian people which is a preliminary expression of the will of

15     the Serbian people.  For voters who are not Serbs, they omitted this part

16     simply because the decision of the Serbian Assembly was not binding in

17     any way whatsoever on these other two peoples.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that be any different if you put a question to

19     the population to already include an assumption of a decision being

20     binding or not?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that this actually

22     meant that it was binding on the Serbian people, but just the information

23     that representatives of the Serb people had brought such a decision.  And

24     the plebiscite offered the possibility to the Serbian population to also

25     decide otherwise.

Page 23982

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So these are two different questions, isn't

 2     it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I think that the questions are

 4     the same for both the Serb and the non-Serb voters.  Basically the

 5     question is the same.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   What is the essence of this question, phrased in two different

 9     ways?

10        A.   Whether the population, the inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

11     wished to remain in Yugoslavia or not.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, are you done with this document?

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to put an additional question.

16             Mr. Witness, on the left side, it's referring -- the ballot paper

17     is referring to Bosnia and Herzegovina staying in Yugoslavia as a

18     republic.  On the right-hand side, it is the question if the Serb people

19     stay in Yugoslavia, together with other parts of the former Yugoslavia.

20     Is the people, the Serb people, the same as Bosnia and Herzegovina?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please see the original

22     version of the ballot slip, please.

23             MR. LUKIC:  So can we have --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the B/C/S version be shown to the witness.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The right-hand side version

Page 23983

 1     states that it is the Serbian people because it also refers to the other

 2     parts of the Serb people in Slavonia, Baranja, et cetera.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take from your answer that now you realise that

 4     there is a difference between the two, correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  There is a difference.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The -- there is a difference

 8     insofar as it refers to Serb people in Baranja and Slovenia as well as in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That is the difference.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And, again, on the left side of the screen, isn't

11     it true that this refers only to the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

12     and not to Serb people in BiH?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is also a difference, correct?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right.  There is a

16     difference.  But simply, it would not be appropriate to put the same

17     question to Serb voters and to Croat voters and to Muslim ones.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a different question.  Thank you very

19     much.

20             Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Was it possible for Muslims and Croats to declare themselves in

23     favour of a solution whereby Serbs would remain in Yugoslavia?

24        A.   Are you saying whether it had been practically possible?

25        Q.   Could a Muslim vote whether a Serb would remain in Yugoslavia?

Page 23984

 1        A.   Certainly not.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we agree on the following:  That the question

 3     that was put to the Serb people was mainly ethnically based, whereas the

 4     other one is based more on a state or country or at least a legal entity,

 5     whereas -- and that's the main difference, the one referring to ethnicity

 6     and the other rather to state institution?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs were part of that institution

 8     too; that is to say, of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was not my question.  But whether the one

10     text is more ethnically oriented and the other one is more state or

11     country, at least legal entity, oriented.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  In a certain sense, yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   The objective of this plebiscite was -- was it primarily for the

16     Serb people to declare their position?

17        A.   Yes.  That was in response to the announced referendum.

18        Q.   It was just that the other peoples were also offered an

19     opportunity if they wanted to declare their position.  Was that actually

20     the stance of the SDS?

21        A.   That was a reaction to the announcement that Bosnia would gain

22     independence, Serb people were against it, so that the plebiscite was

23     scheduled prior to the referendum in order for the Serb people to declare

24     and to express their will in keeping with the possibilities offered to

25     the other two peoples to express their respective wills.

Page 23985

 1        Q.   Was the objective of this plebiscite to change anything in the

 2     constitutional and legal order of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 3        A.   No, only to protect the status quo in which Bosnia was part of

 4     Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   On the page of our transcript, 23897, you were asked whether you

 6     had referred in your situation that you had attended the founding

 7     Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Were there any

 8     representatives of any other parties attending the founding assembly

 9     apart from SDS representatives?

10        A.   The founding assembly of the -- the leadership of the SDS invited

11     all parliamentary and I believe even non-parliamentary parties to the

12     founding assembly.  The latter as guests.  And I was there as the

13     president of the Alliance of Reformist Forces.

14        Q.   So was this constitution, this founding of the Serbian Assembly

15     of the people -- of the Assembly of the Serbian People, was this a

16     clandestine act or a public act?

17        A.   It was a public act.  It actually took place in the building of

18     the parliament in which the joint parliament sat and worked.  So it could

19     not have been secret.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now call up P6663 to

21     e-court, please.

22        Q.   This is a document by which the Prosecutor tried to relativise

23     the gravity of the Islamic Declaration, of the words uttered within it.

24     This is a text of an interview with Dr. Vojislav Seselj.  My question to

25     you is this:  Where was Vojislav Seselj living at this particular moment,

Page 23986

 1     prior to the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the answer because

 3     the speakers overlapped.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer and could you next time

 5     wait until the question has been fully interpreted?

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Where was Vojislav Seselj living before the war

 8     in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 9        A.   He was living in Belgrade.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you next time refer to questions put

11     by the Prosecution, would you refrain from interpreting on what their

12     goal was just by saying questions were put in relation to or repeat the

13     question but not to characterise it in the way you did.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Did Vojislav Seselj take part in the political

17     life in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   No.  If you mean the period before the war, no.

19        Q.   Could you please compare his influence on the policies of Bosnia

20     and Herzegovina to those of Alija Izetbegovic's in the time preceding the

21     war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Izetbegovic's influence was very significant, very big, both as a

23     leader of the party, the leading party, and also as the president of the

24     Presidency, whereas Seselj was a man living in a different area and he

25     had no direct influence of any kind.

Page 23987

 1        Q.   Do you know this?  Did the Serb politicians request that

 2     Alija Izetbegovic renounce his positions as set forth in the

 3     Islamic Declaration?

 4        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 5        Q.   Do you know that the politicians in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbs and

 6     Croats, asked Alija Izetbegovic to renounce the positions that he set out

 7     in the Islamic Declaration after the republication of this pamphlet in

 8     1990?

 9        A.   I'm -- I don't know anything about that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now pull up P6664, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for it, could I ask the

13     following question:  Mr Kecmanovic, you were asked a question about the

14     influence of Mr. Seselj on politics in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Your

15     answer was about the direct influence.  Does that mean that indirectly he

16     may have had influence?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that he may have had

18     some influence on people who went to Belgrade maybe and sought his

19     activities there, because this was still one integral country and people

20     could move freely.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So the question about influence should be answered

22     by he may have had influence but that was not direct political influence.

23     Is that how I have to understand your answer now?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps one could say that

25     his influence was not relevant because he was not in Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 23988

 1     itself and he did not take part in the political life in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He had no public office there, didn't hold any

 3     public office.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Has ever any study been made about his unofficial or

 5     his factual influence on the way of thinking in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of anything like that

 7     existing.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I therefore understand it it's your subjective

 9     impression on the influence that you were talking about?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is the result of what I

11     knew about the situation in pre-war Sarajevo and what I knew about it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] We need the lower left part of this document to

15     be zoomed in on.  This is a reference to we will call on our members to

16     vote in the referendum.  It is very difficult to read this in the

17     original, so I will try to help.

18             The Prosecutor read out half a sentence from this excerpt, from

19     this text by you.

20        A.   Could we please zoom in?

21        Q.   Well, it's almost impossible to decipher this.  I had to refer to

22     the English version and read it back as it were.  So that's how I will do

23     it now and you will receive interpretation into B/C/S.  The Prosecutor

24     read out the following portion of the sentence:

25             [In English] "The radical circles of the SDS Serbian Democratic

Page 23989

 1     Party are seeking to sever parts of B and H with a predominantly Serbian

 2     population from the republic and establish new states?"

 3             [Interpretation] A question followed after that, and now I will

 4     go on and read out what you said next.

 5             [In English] "Whereas the extremist factions within the HDZ,

 6     following the same principle, wished to attach the appropriate

 7     territories to the Independent State of Croatia.  In the same vein,

 8     like-minded factions in the SDA, party of democratic action, are seeking

 9     to ensure predominance for their own relatively mostly numerous ethnic

10     group within a unitary Bosnia."

11             [Interpretation] So we see here that the radical wing, and that's

12     what you explained, on page 23906 of the transcript of 11 July 2014, you

13     explained that this comment here is a reference to the extremists, not

14     the fundamental policies of that party.  In other words, it's about the

15     radical wing of the HDZ.  Now, my question is this:  The radical wing of

16     the HDZ was doing the same thing as the radical wing of the SDS.  Could

17     you describe in brief here the difference between those, the radical wing

18     of the SDA?

19        A.   Well, the difference is in that the Muslims, at this time, as

20     well as Bosniaks to this day, insist on the unitary Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     outside of Yugoslavia, and then from the ultra-unitarian,

22     ultra-centralised, that if it was set up that way, it would automatically

23     mean that the other two ethnicities would be less equal because they were

24     minorities.  This problem has existed throughout this entire period, from

25     the period leading up to the war up to this day.

Page 23990

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In your view, the SDA radical wing, was

 2     Alija Izetbegovic a member of this radical wing as the head of the party?

 3     In other words, was that also his position, that Bosnia and Herzegovina

 4     should be unitarised?

 5        A.   As for Alija Izetbegovic, on several occasions one could get the

 6     impression that he was willing to compromise.  For instance, that was the

 7     case with the Lisbon Agreement as well as in some other occasions, also

 8     the Belgrade historic meeting.  So in the beginning he demonstrated

 9     readiness for compromise, but as this changed, there were assumptions

10     that there were some extremist factors within the parties that would then

11     exert pressure on him and then he would pull back from what he had

12     offered previously.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P6666.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in the final analysis, he did

16     stand up for these radical positions, regardless of whether that was

17     under the influence of other wings, other circles, or whether it was his

18     own position.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you for this subsequent explanation.  Now we can see

21     document P6666, and it was put to you that Krajisnik had said we've

22     always considered the partition or division of Sarajevo.

23             Do you know which settlements and which populations were supposed

24     to remain under Serbian control?  Was that -- was it the case that these

25     were settlements or neighbourhoods with Serb populations or did they feel

Page 23991

 1     that they should control the Muslim settlements and neighbourhoods as

 2     well?

 3        A.   Well, is this the conversation between Krajisnik and Izetbegovic?

 4     Is that what this text is reference to, this document?

 5        Q.   Yes.

 6        A.   Well, that is a meeting that I attended myself.

 7        Q.   Well, we don't see your name here.

 8        A.   Well, in any case, the Serbian positions around Sarajevo,

 9     military positions, were on territories around Sarajevo that were Serbian

10     territories before the war.  The outskirts of Sarajevo, or rather the

11     surroundings of Sarajevo, those were areas where Serb people lived before

12     the war.  Or to put it even more precisely, the majority of the

13     populations there were majorities were Serbian, nothing was really

14     ethnically completely pure.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I ask one -- a couple of short

16     questions.

17             Would you agree that the Serbs feared a situation where they

18     became a minority in an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, the party that I was

20     the head of, and that means that my personal position as well as that of

21     the party, which was called the Alliance of Reformist Forces of

22     Yugoslavia, and it retained that name until the end, we advocated the

23     unity of Bosnia-Herzegovina because we -- and Yugoslavia, because we felt

24     that Bosnia and Herzegovina was not viable without the Yugoslav

25     surroundings.

Page 23992

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's an answer to another question, not mine.

 2             The -- I repeat then the question:  Would you agree that the

 3     Serbs, and I add now that the prevalent position of the Serbs was that

 4     they feared a situation where they became a minority if

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina would become independent?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please be more specific

 7     in your question?  The thing is Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina were a

 8     relative minority even before the war within Yugoslavia, within the

 9     Yugoslav context.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, that was not my question but if you rather --

11     I think my question was clear:  Did most of the Serbs in Bosnia and

12     Herzegovina fear to end up in a minority position if Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina would become independent?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is possible that Serbs had such

15     anxieties, in view of the experience of Serbs in Croatia, where, from a

16     constituent ethnicity, they suddenly were turned into a minority which

17     was how it was formulated in the new constitution, and it's quite certain

18     that there were such fears among Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina as well.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you think that or did you observe that

20     Muslims had fear to remain a minority in the situation where Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina remained a part of the federal republic, a minority meaning a

22     minority in the federal republic?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  There were such fears.

24     That's sure.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you agree with me --

Page 23993

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Although -- I apologise.  A

 2     majority of the Muslim people, a large majority, lived in this portion of

 3     Yugoslavia, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, some in Serbia, and in Macedonia

 4     and Montenegro.  A large majority of the Muslims were in this part of

 5     Yugoslavia so that their numbers would not be significantly altered, and

 6     even in this rump Yugoslavia the structure would have been such that the

 7     Muslim ethnicity would be the second-largest ethnicity, whereas in the

 8     former Yugoslavia they were the third-largest ethnicity.  But in this

 9     rump Yugoslavia they would have been the second-largest.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you agree with me that fear for ending up in a

11     minority position, either in Bosnia and Herzegovina, as far as the Serbs

12     are concerned, or for the Muslims to remain a minority in the federal

13     republic, was prevalent among both ethnicities?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we take Yugoslavia as a whole,

15     the pre-war Yugoslavia, as I've already said, the Serbs were the largest

16     ethnic group, the Croats were the second, whereas the third -- the

17     Muslims were the third largest.  Now in Yugoslavia without Slovenia and

18     Croatia, the Muslims would have been the second largest, so they would

19     have actually gone up from third place to second place in this truncated

20     Yugoslavia.  Now that there were fears that you mention, there is no

21     doubt about that because I've heard people voice such fears.

22             When I talked with Alija Izetbegovic on this subject, he did not

23     show any reserve to such a community, which would have been in line with

24     so-called historic agreement that Zulfikarpasic advocated.  But when

25     I mentioned this alternative and when I mentioned that after Milosevic he

Page 23994

 1     would have been the next president of this joint state, this was that --

 2     this was a portion of that agreement, and this is where he expressed

 3     certain doubts.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Doubts as to what?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, doubts that he would have

 6     been the next president, the first president of this new state.  However,

 7     that was Milosevic's proposal.  It was on the table.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he fear, because the Muslims not having a

 9     majority vote in the federal republic, that he might finally not be

10     appointed as president?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I assume that he thought that

12     Zulfikarpasic would have an advantage there.  He was the main proponent

13     of this historic agreement; in other words, that Bosnia should remain in

14     this rump Yugoslavia.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If I understand you well, it was then fear for his

16     own position that led Izetbegovic to advocate the independence of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, this was a broad --

19     these were broad, informal talks, where we discussed his position

20     vis-à-vis Serbia and Croatia and Milosevic and Tudjman.  He simply felt,

21     considered, that in the final analysis, Bosnia and Herzegovina should be

22     independent.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure whether the witness

24     said "should" or "shouldn't."

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you say should be independent or should not be

Page 23995

 1     independent?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He considered that it should be

 3     independent.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for an answer which, by the way, was

 5     not an answer to my question.

 6             Please proceed.  But it's already far beyond the time where we

 7     should have taken a break.

 8             We take a break after the witness has been escorted out of the

 9     courtroom.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may continue.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, I shall go back to the question which

18     was put to you by His Honour Judge Orie.  On page 23, line 19, I shall

19     read it in English so that you would get the correct interpretation.

20     I quote:

21             [In English] "If I understand you well, it was then fear for his

22     own position that led Izetbegovic to advocate the independence of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina?"

24             [Interpretation] Let me just expand upon this particular

25     question.  Did this, in with your opinion, at all influence?  Was this

Page 23996

 1     the sole reason?  Were there other reasons?  Was this one of the reasons?

 2     Please reply.

 3        A.   Well, let's say that it was one of the reasons.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi?

 5             MR. TRALDI:  It's a little late now that the witness has

 6     answered, but I wonder if we could have one question at a time,

 7     Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you'll certainly take this as guidance

 9     for next questions.  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I was really -- what I wanted to do was to ask a simple question

12     for the Professor to answer, but I will just ask another associated

13     question.  Was this the principal reason or were there some other reasons

14     which were more important for him?

15        A.   I believe that the reason was the fact that he wanted an

16     independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- Bosnia and Herzegovina as an

17     independent state.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Which again is not an answer to the question.  But

20     please move on because the question was about what was the reason.  And

21     what the witness answered was what the aim was, and reason and aim is not

22     the same.

23             But please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Would this objective at the same time be a

Page 23997

 1     reason for Mr. Izetbegovic?

 2        A.   That is what I thought.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The confusion continues.

 4             Please proceed.  Next question.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will move on.

 6             [Interpretation] Can we now please see 65 ter 30941.  That is an

 7     OTP document.  Actually, that is the transcript from the Krajisnik case.

 8     And we need page 142 which was also used by the Prosecutor for their

 9     question and that corresponds to transcript number 22465.  That's

10     actually the transcript page number, 22465.

11        Q.   If you recall, this is the conversation which was relayed to you

12     by your wife.  I'll read you from where we left off, so from line 17 to

13     line 20.  That is a continuation, and I'm quoting:

14             [In English] "My wife recounted that conversation and said she

15     had told him that I certainly wouldn't do anything that would be to the

16     detriment of the Serb people, as I would not indeed do anything to the

17     detriment of any other people."

18             [Interpretation] This position which was related to them by your

19     wife, does it really reflect your position in both life and in politics,

20     your political position?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In this Presidency in Sarajevo, at the outset of the war, the

23     members who were from among the ranks of the Croatian people, would they

24     be co-opted or would they be elected representatives who had been elected

25     at pre-war elections?

Page 23998

 1        A.   At the time when I was a member of the Presidency, they were

 2     elected representatives.

 3        Q.   We have concluded with this document.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P6667 called in e-court,

 5     please.

 6        Q.   These are obviously minutes of meeting from a Presidency session

 7     the Prosecutor showed you.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need page 3 in the English

 9     version and page 4 in the B/C/S version.

10        Q.   At the top of the page, Akmadzic is saying, referring to the

11     negotiations being conducted by the presidents of -- Presidency of the B

12     and H that lead to peace, and he also talks about the conditions.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now we need the following page,

14     in fact, page 5 in the B/C/S version and page 4 in the English version.

15     In the middle of the page, you talk and you say at the end of the

16     paragraph that no changes whatsoever will be accepted in the national

17     structure of the population that have produced by the war, by the moving

18     away of people, et cetera.

19        Q.   In connection with this part, the Prosecutor suggested to you

20     that it would not be accepted -- that they would not be accepted because

21     a genocide had been committed.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] That is page 23932 of our transcript

23     of the 11th of July 2014, lines 3 and 4.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Just for the clarity of the record, the word

25     "genocide" comes from a different excerpt, not from this excerpt, and so

Page 23999

 1     I think the question may create more confusion in the record.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] In any case, possibly I mixed up two

 3     sources.

 4        Q.   But on page 23932 of our transcript of the 11th of July, the

 5     Prosecutor asked you, that is lines 3 to 4, and you replied, I'll read it

 6     all through to line 10 and you will be getting the interpretation.

 7     I quote:

 8             [In English] "Those are territorial ethnic changes caused by

 9     violence, war, genocide, moving away, et cetera."

10             "A. Yes, yes.

11             "Q. That's you speaking, right?

12             "A. Yes.

13             "Q. And you knew at that time that changes in the ethnic makeup

14     of Bosnia-Herzegovina were happening for all these reasons?

15             "A. Yes."

16             [Interpretation] You have already explained that while you were a

17     member of the Presidency in Sarajevo, you would adopt conclusions

18     pursuant to reports on everything that related to the situation outside

19     Sarajevo.  And then later, on page of the transcript 23828 of 10 July

20     2014, line 25, this is what you said, and I quote:

21             [In English] "I cannot take into account as relevant information

22     that I received as member of the Presidency because those information

23     were sort of wartime propaganda."

24             [Interpretation] Was everything that you said at sessions of the

25     Presidency of the -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina, except for things which

Page 24000

 1     emanated from Sarajevo, was that -- was everything based on information

 2     that you received within the Presidency?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Actually, that was the information that you later characterised

 5     as being war propaganda?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You also told us that reference was made -- actually claims were

 8     made about 300.000 Muslims have been killed in the first months of the

 9     war.  That was part of that propaganda.  Was this information that came

10     only from foreign media or was such information also imparted at

11     Presidency sessions that were chaired by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?

12        A.   Both sources coincided.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we see P6669 in e-court now?

15        Q.   It is hardly legible but let us try and see the second paragraph

16     from the top of the second column.  This was also presented to you by the

17     Prosecutor.  [In English] On the right-hand side to the end of the page,

18     please.  All the way.  Yes.  And the second paragraph from the top.  Yes.

19             [Interpretation] At any rate, you don't even have to read this.

20     You talk about who should be given what portion of territory, what

21     percentage of territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you of course took

22     account the population numbers or the fact that in Bosnia-Herzegovina

23     there existed three constituent peoples, and in this text you concluded

24     that the Serbs should be given a third --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, what is the equivalent English

Page 24001

 1     paragraph?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I had it but somehow I lost the reference in English.

 3     Probably it's the next page in English version, under the title:  "The

 4     Split is -- was Inevitable."  On the right-hand side.  Top of the page.

 5     Yes.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] In presenting your view here, did you take into

 7     account the ownership of territory or property that was in the hands of

 8     the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina prior to the 1990s war?

 9        A.   This is a principled position, from the standpoint justice.

10     However, it was not only a question of landownership but also a question

11     of the concentration of the population on specific territories.  Of

12     course, the picture would not be literally such because the Muslims were

13     concentrated in cities, whereas the Serbs for the most part lived in

14     rural areas.  So -- and the result of the Dayton Accords is also that

15     because of that, the Muslims were given the majority of the big cities,

16     such as Sarajevo, Tuzla, Mostar, and the Serbs only got Banja Luka, when

17     it came to the major cities.  We are talking about a principle of justice

18     here, of equity, and we are also talking about something which is

19     associated with 1992, that particular year.  Later, things unfolded in a

20     different manner.  The war went on and new situations emerged.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, did we have the proper B/C/S page on our

22     screen at this moment?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we do.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then I'm lost somewhere.

25             MR. LUKIC:  It's hardly visible so even I cannot follow.

Page 24002

 1     [Overlapping speakers].

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But where exactly -- what's the English text we are

 3     looking at at this moment exactly?  You said under "The Split is or was

 4     Inevitable," which paragraph in that?  The first one?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  There is a question, the last question on the screen:

 6     "Do have you a personal position on the criteria according to which" --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- "that split should be carried out," and then the

 9     answer followed underneath.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I now found it.  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC:  You're very welcome.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] The next text which was used by the OTP from

13     this particular document is in the middle of the page at the bottom,

14     English page 3, [In English] And we need bottom of the page,

15     "Everyone ...," yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  In B/C/S we have to go down.  No, we need aggressor

17     and aggressors.  Yeah.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But the English --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In English, that's page 4, in English e-court page

20     4.  I think where it reads "aggressors and aggressors" between brackets.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, sorry.  In English I have right page.  In

22     B/C/S I need page 2.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- and what is the text then in

24     English you want to refer to?

25             MR. LUKIC:  "Everyone to his own Crowd."

Page 24003

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that on page --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  We need the --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's page.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  1.  We need page 2 in B/C/S.  Next page in B/C/S,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and we have page 3 in English now.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's in the middle -- just above, yes.

 8        Q.   "Each to his own or Everyone to his own Crowd."  At the time when

 9     you were interviewed, did you consider the reasons why people were

10     leaving one territory only to go to another?  Did you interview them?

11     Did you know the reasons that people -- what reasons people were guided

12     by when they were leaving the territories?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   What conclusions could you draw?  Why were they leaving?

15        A.   People fled the conflict, the war.  They tried to leave

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In Belgrade, I met people, not Croats but Serbs and

17     Muslims, large numbers of Serbs and Muslims, some remained there and

18     others only used Belgrade as a stepping stone to leave to a foreign

19     country.  They were fleeing the war.  They were fleeing the threat to

20     their life, the insecurity, their concern for their children.  Those were

21     the reasons.

22        Q.   You say that you had occasion to talk with these people in

23     Belgrade.  Did you have an opportunity to speak to some people who told

24     you that they were expelled, that they were forced out of their own

25     homes?

Page 24004

 1        A.   Well, there were probably such instances too, individual cases,

 2     but for the most part it was the fear of the threat lurking and the fear

 3     that the situation would exacerbate, just as it had gotten worse in the

 4     past period.  There were warnings by friends and neighbours, they would

 5     get information of certain nature, and these were the reasons, the

 6     primary reasons, why they left.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question?  In your interview, at

 8     least as far as I could read, the issue is not people fleeing Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina but rather the territories where they apparently were in a

10     minority.  Do I have to understand in view of your latest answers that

11     most of them fled to outside the borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina and not

12     inside the borders to Serb-controlled areas?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were such cases as well but

14     of course I didn't meet those people in Belgrade.  And the question

15     related to Belgrade, my experience in Belgrade.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which might not have been a representative

17     portion of the refugees.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's possible.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore, to explain why people fled focusing

20     on what may have been a smaller number that fled to Belgrade may create

21     a -- at least a partial picture only.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, a portion of the

23     population left, and I mentioned that in this interview, in fact everyone

24     left for the territories where their own ethnicity was dominant.  This

25     was one of the ways in which they sought safety and security.

Page 24005

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Within or outside Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, people -- during the war

 3     people within Bosnia-Herzegovina also gravitated towards the territories

 4     where most of their own ethnicity lived.  Some of them left for Belgrade.

 5     Some remained in Serbia.  And others just went to third countries via

 6     Belgrade.  Many left for Canada and Australia.  For instance, my brother

 7     and his family, they left for Australia via Belgrade.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you talk about three categories.  Those who

 9     stayed in Serbia, those who went to third countries, you said -- let me

10     see.  You said some of them left for Belgrade, some remained in Serbia,

11     and others just went to third countries.

12             I asked you about those who remained in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13     That's not one of the three categories you are specifying.  But let's

14     move on.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   My colleague Traldi asked you something that has to do with

18     paragraph 55 of your statement.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So I would request that we have

20     1D1633 on our screens.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now D556.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the 65 ter number is 1663.

24             MR. LUKIC:  1633.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  633.

Page 24006

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And we need paragraph 55 from your statement.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] In the mid-section of that paragraph, at the end

 3     of the line which begins with, "also" or "takodzer," which is the easiest

 4     way to find it in B/C/S.  [In English] And in English it says in the

 5     middle of the paragraph:  "I also believe that it was possible."

 6     [Interpretation] So the sentence reads as follows:

 7             "I also believe it was possible to transform Bosnia-Herzegovina

 8     territorially and ethnically without any radical or forced changes to the

 9     ethnic structure on the ground."

10             On transcript page 23943, my learned friend Traldi put the

11     following question from lines 15 to 19 and you answered on line 20 the

12     following, and I will read it out now:

13             [In English] "Q. Sir, I'd put to you that in your statement you

14     are saying it was possible to do this when you know and you said publicly

15     at that time that what actually happened was that the ethnic composition

16     of Bosnia was transformed in a completely different way through violence,

17     through war, through genocide.  That's right, isn't it?

18             "A. Yes."

19             [Interpretation] Sometimes in long questions, there are certain

20     omissions and they may be very important to us lawyers.  Did you intend

21     to mention the word "genocide" in your statement and would you change

22     that as you sit here today?

23        A.   This was an omission, certainly.  I wouldn't have mentioned that.

24        Q.   Do you know -- first of all, let me ask you this:  Do you know

25     what the definition of genocide is?

Page 24007

 1        A.   Well, the way it's used today, at least, when we talk about

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina, it is quite different from what genocide used to be

 3     interpreted as, both in theory and practice, because the word "genocide"

 4     meant the systematic destruction of a people that can be likened to what

 5     the Nazis did to the Jews.  And this is not applicable to the situation

 6     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where neither one of the peoples intended to

 7     totally destroy the other people, the other ethnicity.  There are of

 8     course some other interpretations of that.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to show you P6671.  These are the

10     minutes of the 14th Session of the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

11     Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated the 3rd of July 1992.  You were -- it

12     was -- item 12 was put to you.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we would need the next page in

14     both versions.

15        Q.   You already talked about this, and it is indisputable that the

16     Serbian politicians were dissatisfied with your participation.  You

17     explained why you remained.  It was for the benefit of the Serbs who were

18     still in Sarajevo.

19        A.   If you allow me, I would just like to make a comment here.  And

20     I haven't found that anywhere in any of the documents or materials other

21     than my mention of it in my statement.  The SDS position was that I did

22     not have the right to represent the Serbian people.  Never in my work in

23     the Presidency, and also when I communicated with international partners,

24     I never said that I was a representative of the Serbian people.  On the

25     contrary, I even mentioned -- I stated clearly to Cutileiro and

Page 24008

 1     Carrington that I was not a representative of the Serbian people, and

 2     Cutileiro in his later statement to the media pointed this out.  He

 3     emphasised that I said that if he wanted to talk to the Serbian side, he

 4     would have to go to Pale and discuss matters with Karadzic and not with

 5     me.  And Karadzic mentioned this in his statement later on when giving an

 6     interview to Crna, and he pointed out that it was fair of me to say so.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Professor.  You've actually already answered a lot of

 8     my questions.  You anticipated them.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This only for the transcript.  This

10     also relates to P6672, which is also a record of a session of the

11     Presidency on the 6th of July, the 15th Session of 6 July 1992.

12        Q.   I would now like to go back to what we discussed on Thursday.

13     First I wanted to go through the questions and answers on Friday, but now

14     I would like to go back to Thursday.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need P6657 for this.  Thank

16     you.  These are minutes of a Presidency session chaired by

17     Alija Izetbegovic on the 30th of June 1992.  And just as the Prosecutor

18     did, I would like page 7 in the English version and 14 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   We can see here, and I will just summarise this, that you

20     complained that you can no longer do your job because of all the numerous

21     calls and requests to explore where people had been taken, how long they

22     would be kept and why, and you say, in spite of my personal

23     interventions, both with the military and the police and so on, and you

24     said, I am not asking for anything to be done this way or that, but just

25     to have established where people are and why and for how long they would

Page 24009

 1     be kept because this has become a very large-scale problem.  Now, you've

 2     explained that this had to do with the Serbs who had been taken or

 3     captured and taken away in Sarajevo, who were held in Sarajevo.  And my

 4     colleague Traldi, referring to this, asked you whether you briefed the

 5     Presidency that there was a detention facility for Muslims that was on

 6     territory under control -- under the control of the Serbian BH.  The Army

 7     of Republika Srpska.  And you said that you didn't have such information

 8     and I would like to ask you this --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I'm not sure if it's a translation issue which is

11     why I'm hesitant to term this an objection, but I think that misstates

12     the question I asked the witness, and I don't think I asked him if he

13     briefed the Presidency about that issue.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] You asked the witness whether in his

15     statement he mentioned that; correct?

16             MR. TRALDI:  I asked him whether he mentioned the detention

17     facilities for Muslims in Serb-controlled territory in his statement,

18     right, not whether he had briefed the Presidency about them.  That was

19     the only clarification to the record I was seeking, and to the question.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Do I remember this well?  You said that you

22     didn't know anything about that at the time, and that you don't have any

23     personal knowledge of any detention centres for Muslims and Croats on a

24     Serb-held territories?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24010

 1        Q.   However, I would actually like to focus on this document in my

 2     questions.  At the Presidency sessions, did the Muslim representatives

 3     inform you about detention facilities or camps for Serbs in Sarajevo?

 4        A.   No.  I got that information from citizens and I've mentioned

 5     that.  There were lines almost of people waiting to complain to me about

 6     what had happened to their loved ones, and then after those complaints

 7     I intervened directly and I spoke with the military and the civilian

 8     police in an effort to get some kind of resolution.  But knowing from

 9     after -- after a lot of these instances and after the experience that I

10     had with this, I informed the Presidency at one point of all these things

11     happening.

12        Q.   Now I see in English that we have Mr. Izetbegovic's speech.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we need the next page in the

14     B/C/S.

15        Q.   We can see Mr. Izetbegovic talking here in the middle of the

16     page.  At the end of that paragraph, that is the fourth line from the

17     bottom, it starts with, "This was Todje [phoen]."  In response to your

18     warnings, your comments, President Izetbegovic says it was some sort of

19     house arrest or questioning.  It is not prison.

20             My question to you is this:  According to reports from citizens,

21     according to what you tried to detect in the hotels, the Hotel Europa and

22     I forgot the name of the other one, Zagreb?

23        A.   Zagreb.  And then the Mladen Stojanovic Students' Hostel.  That

24     was also president --

25        Q.   Was that house arrest or was that prison?

Page 24011

 1        A.   Well, if someone is in house arrest they remain in their own

 2     house and they are confined to their own houses or flats in terms of

 3     movement, but in this case they were taken away at night and none of

 4     their family members or any of their relatives knew where they were.  And

 5     this was a large-scale practice.  It was on a massive scale.  Some of

 6     them never returned, in fact.

 7        Q.   What was the reaction of Sefer Halilovic when you mentioned the

 8     military police to him?  Did he try to explain or to intervene, if you

 9     know?

10        A.   [No interpretation]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:  I've been patient, but I'm not sure how this part of

13     the line of questioning arises from my cross-examination.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  It arises from the document that the Prosecution

16     offered into the evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that's not the same as arising from -- if

18     every link of any document which is used in a specific way could be

19     sufficient to start re-examination on those matters, then we would be

20     here with this witness until Christmas.

21             MR. LUKIC:  But, Your Honour, this is the only witness we have

22     from that Presidency.  We have nobody else to ask.  And I don't have many

23     questions left --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but -- no --

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- but whom --

Page 24012

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No one would have prevented you from --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers].

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No one would have prevented you from putting those

 4     questions to this witness in the examination-in-chief, and let's -- this

 5     is the last question, then.  The witness may answer the question but

 6     you're expected then to move on.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You replied but it is not in the transcript.  Maybe that is the

 9     better because my learned friend Traldi had an objection.  But with

10     His Honour's leave I shall repeat the question and we shall conclude with

11     that topic.  So I asked you what was the reaction of Sefer Halilovic when

12     you referred to the fact that the military police too were participating

13     in these detentions?  Did he try to explain that?  Did he try to

14     intervene?  Or what, if you know.

15        A.   He actually disregarded these complaints.  It was Izetbegovic

16     who, for the most part, reacted.  Actually, I think that these structures

17     were not under Sefer Halilovic's control at all.  That was directly

18     associated with Izetbegovic and his two key associates who in formal

19     terms did not hold any state offices, such as Hasan Cengic, who was in

20     charge for the party, for the military sector, on behalf of the party.

21     And then Bakir Alispahic who held a lower-ranking position in the

22     Sarajevo MUP but he was actually the SDA or Izetbegovic's commissioner

23     for internal affairs, for the interior.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked, although there was some objections,

25     how Sefer Halilovic responded.  You said he ignored it.  That's an answer

Page 24013

 1     to the question.  You were not asked to tell us the context, et cetera.

 2             Mr. Lukic, next question, please.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Just give me one second.  I'm closing to

 4     the end.  So I should maybe inform everybody that I don't have many

 5     questions left, just one minute so I can go through the questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Take your time.  Not too much but take your time.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I'll just go through one more document and I think

 8     that I will then finish.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  If we can have on our screens P6659.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a document of the Ministry of the

12     Interior of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

13     July 1992.  In connection with this document, the OTP put to you the

14     second page in both versions.  We do not need it, but the question put to

15     you by the Prosecutor was if you knew who Mico Stanisic was.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] What we need actually is page 8 in

17     both versions, which was the one referred to subsequently.

18        Q.   The second paragraph was read out to you where it is stated that

19     the army and the Crisis Staffs, the War Presidencies, are asking for as

20     many Muslim inhabitants to be collected, and they leave such undefined

21     camps to the organs of the interior.  The conditions in these camps are

22     bad, not in terms of food, sometimes individuals do not respect

23     international norms because, inter alia, such collection centres are not

24     adequate or there are other reasons.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter has translated it from the

Page 24014

 1     original.  Not -- cannot see the exact paragraph in the English version.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you please look at the observation

 3     by the interpreter.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  If I might assist, I think due to the correction to

 5     the English translation, the text Mr. Lukic is looking for may appear on

 6     page 7 now in the English.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay, let's try.  I was working with probably another

 8     version.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And I think he's looking for the middle of the page.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, yes, that's right.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Does this assist the interpreters?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, yes, Your Honour, thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, do you have any knowledge about the

16     actual competences, the ambits, who was in charge of which collection

17     centre, whether there was an overlapping of such competencies, do you

18     have any knowledge about that or did you at all deal with that?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   I suppose that you don't, but let me ask you do you have any

21     firsthand knowledge, personal knowledge, which are related to these

22     centres that you could testify about as a fact witness?

23        A.   What centres are you talking about?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, where the witness said that he has no

25     knowledge, because that's what you asked him, do you have any knowledge

Page 24015

 1     about that or did you at all deal with that?  No.  I understood that to

 2     be that he has no knowledge and did not deal with it.  And then to ask

 3     him whether he has any firsthand knowledge --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No knowledge includes firsthand knowledge.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  No, I accept.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  You're right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Actually, that was -- that was everything I had for

11     this witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Professor, thank you for staying with

14     us for longer than we told you would be necessary.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break, I'd like to ask one

16     clarification on one issue.  You were asked about the propaganda, and you

17     said that on the radio, for instance, you heard about 300.000 Muslim

18     casualties as early in the first few months of the war.  But you added to

19     that, if you remember correctly.

20             Now, this Chamber was presented by the Prosecution with a

21     telephone conversation between Mr. Karadzic and certain Mr. Djoko or --

22     in which he would have said -- Gojko Djoko, in which he would have said

23     that there are 4.000 armed Serbs in Bosnia, 20.000 of them in Sarajevo,

24     and that Sarajevo itself will become a cauldron where 300.000 Muslims

25     will die.  That is the only reference, but I may be mistaken, where the

Page 24016

 1     number of 300.000 appears but then it's not from media sources but from a

 2     telephone conversation.  Could you tell us where you said if I -- you

 3     remember accurately, where did you find the 300.000 in the international

 4     media?  And if the parties could assist in pointing at any publication

 5     where a number of 300.000 is mentioned, that of course the Chamber would

 6     appreciate as well, but, first, you seem not to be certain about it.

 7     Could you give us a bit more explanation as where your doubts are and

 8     where you may have found it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is difficult for me after more

10     than 20 years to be very specific, to tell you precisely what way.  This

11     was a project that was referred to in talks among people in Sarajevo, and

12     they referred to it as something that had been aired or carried by the

13     media.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you said that appeared in the media, you

15     intended to say that people said that it appeared in the media.  You

16     didn't see it yourself in the media?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I heard it both

18     personally and from other people, but I cannot tell you exactly what

19     particular medium.  At any rate, it was on the radio, not television, and

20     not the press because the press didn't practically exist any longer at

21     that point.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But you were talking about international media.  The

23     international media did continue to exist, didn't they?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I understood your line, if you remember

Page 24017

 1     accurately, not only to be about what source, because you were not very

 2     specific on that, but also on the number.  Any comment on that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Reference was made to about

 4     300.000.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.  We will take a break

 6     and --

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take a break, Mr. Traldi, would you have

 9     any questions for the witness after the break?

10             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  It will be probably 10 to 15

11     minutes but I'll be able to be more accurate after the break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Accuracy on numbers is always appreciated.

13             Then we first take that break.  Could the witness be escorted out

14     of the courtroom.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at half past 12.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.33 p.m.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kecmanovic, Mr. Traldi will have some more

21     questions for you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

25        Q.   First, sir, at temporary transcript page 15 today, you asserted

Page 24018

 1     that Mr. Seselj did not take part in the political life of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina before the war.  Now, Seselj did speak, did give political

 3     speeches, in Bosnia regularly before the war, didn't he?

 4        A.   Seselj left for Belgrade a number of years before the war, and he

 5     lived there.  As for Sarajevo, as far as I know, he did not go to

 6     Sarajevo before the war.

 7        Q.   Now, so the Trial Chamber has received evidence that Mr. Seselj,

 8     for instance, gave speeches in Pale -

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And I refer to P319.

10        Q.   -- and met repeatedly with Mr. Karadzic --

11             MR. TRALDI:  I refer to P5129.

12        Q.   --- in the spring of 1991.  Were you aware of any of that?

13        A.   I know that there was a talk show on TV, supposed to be.  He was

14     supposed to appear in that show, but that was cancelled.  As for the

15     meetings at Pale, I don't know anything about that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And about the meetings with Mr. Karadzic which was

17     part of the question as well?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   As of the spring of 1991, Mr. Karadzic was the leader of the SDS,

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Mr. Seselj's political party, the Serbian Radical Party, were you

24     aware of that party?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24019

 1        Q.   Now, it published a magazine called "Velika Serbia," which was

 2     distributed in Bosnia in 1991.  Were you aware of that?

 3        A.   No.  I am aware of that publication, but I didn't know that it

 4     was distributed, at least it wasn't in Sarajevo, or I don't know that it

 5     was.

 6        Q.   Now, in light of that information, would you agree that meeting

 7     with the leader of the SDS, giving political speeches, and publishing a

 8     political magazine, does, in fact, constitute participating in the

 9     political life of Bosnia?

10        A.   Well, no.  Seselj is a colleague and a friend, and I met with him

11     in Belgrade.  I knew what his positions were, but that didn't have any

12     effect on me.

13        Q.   I think you've answered a different question than the one

14     I asked.  I hadn't asked about your personal relationship with

15     Mr. Seselj.  What I'd asked was whether you agree that if you give

16     political speeches in Bosnia, you publish a political magazine in Bosnia,

17     and you meet with political leaders in Bosnia, you are participating in

18     the political life of Bosnia.  That's true, isn't it?

19        A.   Can we be more precise?  He didn't publish in Bosnia.  That was

20     published in Serbia.  Perhaps that was an omission on your part.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the -- Mr. Kecmanovic, what about carefully

22     listening?  I think that Mr. Traldi talked about distribution in, not

23     publishing in.  So therefore, to comment and to suggest that it was an

24     omission on his part, rather listen carefully.

25             Please proceed.

Page 24020

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Would it assist if I repeated the question?  And I see you've

 3     nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the record.

 4        A.   Yes.  Would you please repeat it?

 5        Q.   Do you agree that if you give political speeches in Bosnia, you

 6     publish a political magazine which is distributed in Bosnia, and you meet

 7     with political leaders in Bosnia, you are participating in the political

 8     life of Bosnia?

 9        A.   Indirectly, yes.

10        Q.   Next, sir, Mr. Lukic suggested to you today at page 28 that your

11     comments in Presidency meetings were based on propaganda that you

12     received in Presidency meetings.  Do you recall that question?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you testified at page 28 that everything you said at

15     Presidency meetings was based on information you received within the

16     Presidency.  Do you recall that?

17        A.   Could you please be more precise?  I don't understand you.

18        Q.   If it would assist, if you give me a moment, I can read back the

19     question and answer.  You were asked at line 15, beginning on line 15:

20             "Was everything that you said at sessions of the Presidency of

21     the -- of Bosnia-Herzegovina, except for things which emanated from

22     Sarajevo, was that -- was everything based on information that you

23     received within the Presidency?"

24             And you answered:

25             "Yes."

Page 24021

 1             Does that refresh your recollection as to the question you were

 2     asked today?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, there was some discussion on Thursday as to whether and when

 5     you relied upon the reports you received as a member of the Presidency.

 6     And you said, for instance, at transcript page 23829:  "None of us could

 7     really rely upon what we were -- kept hearing in Presidency meetings."

 8     Do you recall that testimony?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And at T 23833 you testified that you showed confidence in

11     Presidency reports when they corresponded with information you received

12     from other sources such as the media.  That's right, isn't it?

13        A.   No.  Then perhaps I wasn't precise enough.  The media reports

14     were for the most part identical to what I heard in -- at the Presidency

15     meetings.  Perhaps the best way to put it would be that I received

16     information selectively based on my own assessment.

17        Q.   We looked at reports you received in the Presidency which related

18     to city-wide shelling and ethnic cleansing.  Similar information appears

19     in your expert reports, right?

20        A.   About the shelling of the city, yes.

21        Q.   Also about ethnic cleansing, right, in various territories in

22     Bosnia?

23        A.   Yes.  That was information within the Presidency, that we

24     received within the Presidency.

25        Q.   You testified on Thursday that you hadn't relied on information

Page 24022

 1     from within the Presidency in drafting your expert reports.  That's

 2     right, isn't it?

 3        A.   Well, selectively, as I've already said.  Some information was

 4     believable, and then I would cross check them with others, but I can't

 5     really be very precise in my answers.

 6        Q.   So where we've seen information in your expert reports that

 7     matches what you were receiving in the Presidency, that reflects either

 8     that you found it believable or that you'd cross-checked it with other

 9     sources and found it corroborated, correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Then I want to just look at one quick document before we finish.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 14958.

13        Q.   As this comes up, at temporary transcript page 3 today, Mr. Lukic

14     showed you a publication that you described as expressing enmity or

15     hostility towards you from the Muslim side.  Do you recall that?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the release of the English translation

17     is of some concern to Madam Registrar.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise for that, Mr. President, and I would

19     just ask -- I think it should be remedied now.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the English translation is an empty

21     page.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Fortunately we have video of the same thing so it

23     might be simplest to just play that.  Let me see if Ms. Stewart is able

24     to do that quickly.  And I believe we'll have to play it twice.  It has

25     not been pre-confirmed.  The 65 ter for the record is 30952A.

Page 24023

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If the person would have been in the courtroom,

 3     I would have asked him to slow down.  But let's play it again.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "President of the Presidency of the

 6     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, also

 7     reacted to the news we just broadcast that Mr Kecmanovic and

 8     Mirko Pejanovic became members of the Croatian Muslim coalition; that is,

 9     the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He said Messrs Nenad Kecmanovic

10     and Mirko Pejanovic have been selected in private and in secret and have

11     become Alija Izetbegovic's own private Serbs.

12             "Dr. Radovan Karadzic gave this statement to a 'Tanjug' Yugoslav

13     news agency reporter today.  In the statement carried by the Serbian

14     agency 'Crna,' Karadzic made the comment on the occasion of Kecmanovic

15     and Pejanovic being selected into the Presidency.  He said, Karadzic,

16     that it is a sad fact the two have become Alija Izetbegovic's own private

17     Serbs.

18             "'Ante Pavelic also had his own private Serbs and Franjo Tudjman

19     has them also,' added the President of the Presidency of the Serbian

20     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  'They are Izetbegovic's own private

21     Serbs on account of the fact that they represent no one but themselves

22     because the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina have chosen their representatives

23     and at the plebiscite they decided they do not want to live in Alija

24     Izetbegovic's state.  The Serbian people are continuing their journey in

25     their free state and we wish the two a safe journey in Alija

Page 24024

 1     Izetbegovic's Jamahiriya,' said Dr. Radovan Karadzic."

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Now, this is a response to you joining the Izetbegovic

 4     Presidency.  Ante Pavelic was the Croatian Ustasha leader during the

 5     Second World War, right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered by his forces,

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Comparing you to Serbs who collaborated with Pavelic was a very

11     serious accusation, wasn't it?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   And in paragraph 5 of your statement, you say that, "Many Serbs,

14     especially the general membership of the SDS, saw Mirko Pejanovic and

15     myself as traitors.  However, I think that was partly a result of

16     propaganda for the general public and that the SDS leadership, whose

17     representatives knew me well, did not think of me that way."  This

18     statement by Mr. Karadzic is, in fact, an example of just the kind of

19     propaganda you're describing in your statement, right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 30952A.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30952A receives number P6674, Your

24     Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P6674 is admitted.

Page 24025

 1             MR. TRALDI:  That completes my examination, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It also -- we are at the conclusion of your

 3     testimony, Mr Kecmanovic.

 4             I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 5     I repeat my appreciation for you making yourself available today so as to

 6     be able to conclude your -- hearing your testimony.  And I'd like to wish

 7     you a safe return home again.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, now that the witness has been

13     escorted out I'd ask that Mr. Lukic and myself also be excused.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's good that the Prosecution requests Mr. Lukic to

15     be excused.  It underlines the relations between Prosecution and Defence.

16     At least in this respect.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I believe it was -- I believe I'm simply returning

18     the courtesy he showed me last time, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that again underlines the same.  You are

20     excused, both.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness --

23     is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

24             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honour, and I understand he should be

25     in the building already.  It's Colonel Milorad Sehovac.

Page 24026

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Without -- no protective measures?

 2             MR. IVETIC:  No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Sehovac.  Before you give

 6     evidence the rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text

 7     is handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I

 9     solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

10     but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  MILORAD SEHOVAC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Sehovac.  Please be seated.

14             Mr. Sehovac, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic, you'll find

15     him to your left, standing.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team

16     of Mr. Mladic.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Colonel.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22             MR. IVETIC:  At this time, with the assistance of the usher,

23     I would provide the witness a clean copy of his statement in printed

24     form.

25             And at the same time, then I would call up in e-court

Page 24027

 1     65 ter number 1D01626.

 2             And, sir, directing your attention to the Serbian copy on the

 3     left, can you confirm for us whose signature is present?

 4        A.   That is my signature.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  And now if we can turn to the last page of the

 6     document in both languages.

 7        Q.   And again, sir, once that page comes up, I direct your attention

 8     to the Serbian on the left.  And could you tell us whose signature is

 9     that?

10        A.   That is my signature as well.

11        Q.   Subsequent to signing this statement for the Defence team of

12     General Mladic, did you have occasion to review the same in the Serbian

13     language during proofing with myself?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I would now like to call up 65 ter number 1D02834 in

16     e-court.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document is not in e-court.

18             MR. IVETIC:  One moment.  If I can have one moment, Your Honour,

19     I'm trying to resolve this issue.

20             If you try again, I think it should be 1D02834.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar is unable to find that.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, I'm advised it's also near the break --

23     time for a break.  Perhaps we could have a break and I will try to get

24     this proofing note issue resolved.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is not.  But nevertheless, it may be a

Page 24028

 1     practical solution to take the break now so that you are fully organised

 2     and we have then another 50 minutes after the break.  So we take a break

 3     pretty earlier than we would expect and then resume in 20 minutes from

 4     now.

 5             Witness, we first have to overcome some practical problems.  We'd

 6     like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We take a break first, and then

 7     you'll be in court for another 50 minutes today to answer any further

 8     questions.  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a break and we will resume at 25

12     minutes past 1.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 1.06 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.26 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if I understand well, you were not fully

16     able to resolve the problem but we will find a practical way out.

17             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Although at this moment that would prevent us from

19     any formal admission of the --

20             MR. IVETIC:  Proofing note.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, called information report.  It also says

22     confidential.  Is there any -- if I've got the same --

23             MR. IVETIC:  It's the same.  I don't think there is anything

24     confidential in it.  The statement itself is public, so I don't think

25     there is any reason, apart from the fact that it was informally sent, for

Page 24029

 1     it to remain confidential and not be broadcast.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And thank you, Madam Registrar, for your assistance.

 5        Q.   Sir, on the screen we have what is -- what corresponds to

 6     1D02834.  Is this -- is this a copy of the corrections and clarifications

 7     that you prepared with me this past week and weekend to your written

 8     statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Have you had occasion to review all of the corrections and

11     clarifications listed here in the Serbian language such that you can

12     confirm their completeness and accuracy?

13        A.   Yes.  And I stand by all of this and I had occasion to read

14     through it.

15        Q.   Apart from the corrections that are listed in this written

16     document, do you stand behind the rest of your written statement 1D01626,

17     of which you have a hard copy in front of you, as being accurate?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps now if we can call up 1D01626 and go again

20     to the first page in both languages.

21        Q.   Sir, if I were to ask you these same questions today about the

22     same topics that are contained in your statement, would your answers in

23     substance be identical to those contained in the statement?

24        A.   In essence they would be identical and they wouldn't change

25     anything significantly.

Page 24030

 1        Q.   Having taken the solemn declaration today to tell the truth,

 2     would these answers, as contained in your statement, be truthful?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender the written statement

 5     1D01626 into evidence, and I would ask for 1D02834 to be marked for

 6     identification.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1626 receives number D559, and

10     document 1D2834 receives number D560, Your Honours.

11             MR. IVETIC:  MFI, I presume.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it receives that number and it's marked for

13     identification.  So D559 is admitted into evidence and D560 is marked for

14     identification.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             And, Your Honours, I would leave the associated exhibits until

17     the end of this witness, and at this time I'm prepared to read the

18     summary pursuant to Rule 92 ter which has been explained to the witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, as suggested.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Colonel Milorad Sehovac was commander of the

21     2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade of the VRS from 18 August 1992

22     onwards.  His testimony is that the ABiH 1st Corps in Sarajevo had 44.000

23     to 64.000 soldiers in the city itself.  Together with the units outside

24     the city, the ABiH numbered 100.000 soldiers in the Sarajevo theatre of

25     war.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps by comparison had 22.000 to 25.000

Page 24031

 1     soldiers.

 2             The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had two objectives:  To protect the

 3     territory and to protect the population.  And towards that end, tried to

 4     blockade the forces of the ABiH 1st Corps in Sarajevo.

 5             When carrying out combat operations, opening fire, or returning

 6     fire that came from Sarajevo, neither his brigade nor Colonel Sehovac

 7     viewed these actions as part of a systematic attack on civilians.  He

 8     heard about offers made by the VRS Main Staff and civilian authorities

 9     for Sarajevo to become a demilitarised city.  Superior commands informed

10     his brigade about the provisions of the international law of war and

11     humanitarian law.  During the war, the brigade educated officers, junior

12     officers, and soldiers alike through various forms of training, the most

13     common of which were printed brochures, meetings, and talks by the

14     assistant commander for moral guidance and legal affairs.  It was

15     stressed and ordered by military and political leaders that one was to

16     act and accord with the Geneva Conventions.  There were no exclusively

17     civilian zones in neither Hrasnica nor Dobrinja in which the ABiH did not

18     have firing positions or forces located.  Colonel Sehovac's brigade took

19     precautionary measures to avoid opening fire on civilian facilities.

20     Neither he nor his superiors ever ordered for attacks to be conducted

21     against civilians.  Efforts were undertaken by his brigade to try and

22     reduce collateral casualties among civilians when firing upon ABiH

23     positions.

24             There were no paramilitaries in his zone of responsibility.  The

25     witness knows that General Mladic was vigorously opposed to

Page 24032

 1     paramilitaries.

 2             As to snipers, the witness states he did not have specially

 3     organised sniper units in his brigade.  All snipers were trained and

 4     neither the brigade command nor the witness had any information that

 5     snipers were being tasked to open fire on civilians in Sarajevo.  Snipers

 6     were exclusively tasked with engaging military targets of the enemy.

 7             As far as the casualties of his brigade are concerned, due to the

 8     unfavourable tactical position of his brigade, and constant offensive

 9     operations by the enemy, one in eight of his soldiers was killed and one

10     in three of his soldiers was wounded.

11             That completes the summary.

12             I would now move on to some follow-up questions, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to page 3 in both versions of the

15     statement and focus on paragraph 6 of the same.

16        Q.   Sir, here you have identified active defensive operations and

17     active combat on the part of your brigade.  What are these terms to be

18     understood as covering?

19        A.   Active combat operations means attacks by parts of the brigade

20     against elements of the combat disposition of the enemy that is

21     attacking.  Usually these would be communications centres, command posts,

22     fire positions of the artillery of the reserve, and parts of the

23     2nd Combat Echelon, or in order to pre-empt a manoeuvre by the enemy in

24     the combat zone, there could be features such as bridges, passes, and so

25     on and so forth.  Usually, forces that carry out active combat would move

Page 24033

 1     from -- they would be -- they would include anywhere from between a group

 2     to a reinforced battalion depending on the purpose of the attack.  My

 3     group carried out a lot of such attacks, primarily in order to improve

 4     the tactical position of the brigade.  For instance, such as the attack

 5     on Kijevo in October 1993, the attack on the eastern slopes of Igman,

 6     where we burned everything in the front -- on the front line and closed

 7     off or set off the -- closed off the trenches, attacks on the Guca

 8     village and so on, and in this way we would bring our brigade into better

 9     tactical position.  In addition, we carried out numerous active

10     operations such as diversions at the forward end of the enemy and

11     similar.

12        Q.   Was there any room for retreat or withdrawal from your front-line

13     positions?

14        A.   Well, practically, we did not -- we could not withdraw.  We had a

15     determined defence.  We had to hold a determined defence.  Any withdrawal

16     would mean the fall of Sarajevo and the cutting off of the territory that

17     was under the control of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, which would have a

18     catastrophic effect on both the Army of Republika Srpska and of Republika

19     Srpska itself, so we had to conduct a decisive defence.

20        Q.   Now I wish to turn to paragraph 7 of your statement on the same

21     page in both languages.  Here you say neither you nor your brigade view

22     these actions as part of a systematic or widespread attack on civilians.

23     Can you tell me if any superior officer or orders ever talked of engaging

24     in a widespread or systematic attack on civilians?

25        A.   No.

Page 24034

 1        Q.   Now I'd like to turn to paragraph 11 of your statement, which is

 2     to be found on page 4 in both languages.  Here you're talking of training

 3     and brochures on the topic of the international law of war and

 4     humanitarian law.  How often were these trainings undertaken?

 5        A.   These trainings were undertaken, more often than not, during lull

 6     periods and in periods when the intensity of combat was lower which was

 7     usually the case in the winter time.  They were conducted, if I can give

 8     you a complete answer, at the level of the basic unit, either the company

 9     or battalion level, and they were -- we received from the Main Staff of

10     the Republika Srpska army and the main command, we received various

11     brochures and leaflets with photographs and so on.  The brunt or the

12     focus of training was the defence, the protection of civilians in

13     wartime, the treatment of enemy prisoners of war, of enemy wounded, what

14     the Red Cross and the red crescent are, what the tasks of humanitarian

15     organisations in that area were, and what our tasks or objectives in

16     relation to that would be.

17        Q.   What efforts were undertaken to make this material more

18     accessible and understandable to the average soldier?

19        A.   Well, as the background, the education background, was different

20     for the various soldiers, the privates would vary differently amongst

21     themselves, but also officers would be at a much higher level of

22     education, so this brochure would have to be adapted and simplified and

23     everything would be clarified with the help of various photographs and

24     figures so that even those who were least educated could understand the

25     gist of the subject matter.

Page 24035

 1        Q.   And if I can ask a follow-up.  If we can turn to page 30 of your

 2     statement, which is on page 7 in the English and page 8 in the Serbian.

 3     Now here, sir, you talk about the fact that most of your brigade was from

 4     the reserve force and had very few active servicemen.  What steps were

 5     taken specifically to train the reserve component or reserve officers

 6     during the course of the war?

 7        A.   Well, you see, the Main Staff of the VRS really tried to send

 8     active duty personnel so that in 1993, the brigade received four officers

 9     that were trained active duty officers.  The commander of the brigade, a

10     lieutenant-colonel who had just completed the academy, a company

11     commander, and a platoon commander who had graduated from the military

12     high school.  Now, in view of the fact that most of our soldiers, most of

13     our officers were officers in reserve, it was necessary to conduct

14     training at the level of the platoon, at the level of the company,

15     battalion, and brigade.

16             Within the brigade, the level was usually at the -- at the

17     company and platoon level.  The commanders of the lower level units would

18     be organised and grouped according to special -- military specialty.  For

19     instance, infantry or the mortar group or various different weapons

20     groups.  So at the corps level, in addition to company commanders, the

21     corps would insist on the -- of the training of officers for the 82- and

22     120-millimetre mortars, and there would also be training for various

23     other specialties.  In addition, in the Rajko Balac barracks there was

24     additional training organised for officers, and some officers were

25     trained in the army of Yugoslavia.  For instance, one of my commanders

Page 24036

 1     was sent to Pancevo where he would be trained in order to make it

 2     possible for him to carry out the military tasks assigned to him in a

 3     more professional way.

 4        Q.   Now I would like to turn to paragraph 18 of the statement and

 5     page 5 in English and page 6 in the Serbian.  In this paragraph, you talk

 6     about the ABiH side deploying military weapons in apartments and high

 7     rises, especially in Hrasnica.  Can you tell me if civilians were still

 8     present in these areas where the ABiH positioned their military?

 9        A.   Certainly.  As an example, in Hrasnica there were two high-rise

10     buildings, two skyscrapers, and there were machine-guns emplaced in one

11     flat, a couple of storeys under that or above that there were families

12     living.  Then at the front line of their defence, the forward line of

13     their defence, they used on a large scale the basements of private houses

14     where Hrasnica is concerned.  Also positions for 82- and 120- mm mortar.

15     To prevent that, we undertook this -- the commanders of brigades actually

16     asked the UNPROFOR observers to resolve such matters because we wanted to

17     avoid the situation of having to fire at civilians.  So on the other

18     hand, we informed the corps command, which through its liaison officer,

19     intervened with the UNPROFOR command for such practices, such negative

20     practices to be eliminated.

21        Q.   Now I'd like to turn to paragraph 19 on both versions on the same

22     page.  Here you identify a document, 1D02050.

23             MR. IVETIC:  And I'd like to call up that document in e-court.

24        Q.   Sir, we see that the document is dated the 5th of August 1994.

25     And focusing on the --

Page 24037

 1             MR. IVETIC:  We'll need the second page in English, I apologise.

 2        Q.   On the bottom of the document, sir, you propose certain targets

 3     of the ABiH to be struck, and the last entry is for the Aleksa Santic

 4     primary school in Hrasnica, and it's noted there, "shell production."

 5     How did you obtain this information on the use of the school in this

 6     manner?

 7        A.   We obtained this information from defectors from Hrasnica.  This

 8     was a daily practice.  They defected in groups via the river, Zeljeznica,

 9     also the forest.  Secondly, we were informed by intelligence bodies

10     through the corps command.  In Hrasnica, in the primary school Aleksa

11     Santic, in addition to producing shells in apart of the school - because

12     this is a large facility, a large building - they also trained the

13     Special Police units of the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina.

15             MR. IVETIC:  If we can now turn to P06618, and I would ask for

16     page 3 in e-court.  If we could zoom in a little.

17        Q.   Sir, do you recognise the area or neighbourhood which is depicted

18     in this photograph?

19        A.   What do you mean do I recognise the area?  I recognise the

20     photograph.  This is Hrasnica.  This is the school in Hrasnica.  That is

21     the Aleksa Santic school.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Please ask the witness to speak into the

23     microphone, we cannot hear him properly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, one second, please.  Witness, could you

25     please speak into the microphone?  Otherwise the interpreters cannot hear

Page 24038

 1     you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is a photograph of Hrasnica

 3     and I know this entire area, this is my area.  I don't know how I could

 4     show you.  Is this the pointer which I can use?  Yes.  So this is the

 5     workers' home in Hrasnica.  This is the Aleksa Santic primary school.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Could you please wait for a second and

 7     follow the instructions to be given by Mr. Ivetic, otherwise we have

 8     difficulties in following you.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Sir, with the assistance of the usher, could you please encircle

11     the entire school grounds of the Aleksa Santic school that you've been

12     talking about?

13        A.   This circled in blue, that is the Aleksa Santic primary school.

14        Q.   What was the information available to your brigade?  Were all

15     three structures that you have now circled being used by the ABiH?

16        A.   Well, according to our information, in this part of the school --

17     can I encircle that?  Okay.  So in this part of the school, which is in

18     the east part, on this photograph, they produced shells.  They

19     manufactured shells.  In the central part there was a police school.  And

20     to this end, this -- with the flat roof, that was the gym of the school,

21     of the Aleksa Santic school.

22        Q.   Again with the assistance of the usher, I would ask that you mark

23     for us with an X which structure you've just identified that was being

24     used for the production of shells by the ABiH.

25        A.   This.  This one, here.

Page 24039

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would ask that this photograph as

 2     marked by the witness be introduced as the next available exhibit number.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Page 3 of document P6618 as marked by the witness

 5     receives number D561, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Sir, do you have knowledge of where the aerial bomb, that was

 9     fired in April of 1995, landed near the Aleksa Santic school?

10        A.   I'm sorry, could you please increase the volume, step up the

11     volume?  I can't hear properly.  So the shell landed here where it is

12     written G10, and to the left a bit.  Around here.

13        Q.   What is that knowledge based upon?

14        A.   We were executing combat activities.  The 2nd Sarajevo Brigade

15     was attacked on the third day intensively from the Hrasnica area.  The

16     compound of the Famos company was attacked by forces three battalions

17     strong.  The bomb was fired on the third day.  I didn't know that that

18     would be fired, but I noticed a big explosion and a huge smoke rising and

19     I looked to see where that could be.  And it was my assessment, as

20     I already stated at the trial in Mr. Karadzic's case and I so confirm

21     here, I assess that it fell approximately in the area of the target, some

22     20 or 30 metres away from it actually.  This bomb has between 105 and 107

23     kilograms of explosives.  On impact it ejects about 550 cubic metres of

24     earth.  It displaces, rather.  And there is a huge cloud of dust and

25     smoke which is over 100 metres in diameter because it fell as -- on an

Page 24040

 1     inhabited place.  From my observation post I could not notice the crater

 2     which is usually up to 18 metres in diameter and up to five metres deep.

 3     I couldn't see that.  I had to make my own assessment on the basis of the

 4     smoke so -- by immediate observation.  So I also asked the command of the

 5     corps by operative lines that.  They told me that the Igman Brigade had

 6     fired an aerial bomb on the Aleksa Santic school building in Hrasnica.

 7     So these are the two sources.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If we can now return to D559 and page 5 in the

 9     English and page 6 in the B/C/S.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I read in the transcript that the bomb

11     had between 105 and 107 kilograms of explosives which is -- I wonder

12     whether that is --

13             MR. IVETIC:  We can ask the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could you tell us, Witness, what the -- how

15     many kilograms of explosives were in this aerial bomb?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As this was a contact bomb, aerial

17     bomb, intended for medium and strong fortified facilities, the bomb

18     itself weighs, Your Honour, about 250 kilograms, depending on the type of

19     the bomb, the newer ones --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there.  I only asked for the explosives.

21     All the rest was not asked.  So I do understand that the weight was 250

22     kilograms.  And then you say depending on the type of bomb.  What bomb

23     was used in this case?  Was it a 250 kilograms or it was a different one?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my assessment the bomb which was

25     used was a contact action bomb weighing 250 kilograms.

Page 24041

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by assessment?  I mean, on the

 2     basis of what did you assess that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of the explosion, the

 4     smoke, and the displaced earth by the bomb at the moment of impact, at

 5     the moment of explosion.  It fell about 9.00 in the morning so that this

 6     could be easily seen.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And the exact point of impact was also determined by

 8     you on the basis of the smoke and the explosion?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  And also because

10     I was unable to see the actual crater, because the buildings in between

11     were an obstacle.  I couldn't see the crater from the observation post

12     where I was.  So it was the smoke column which is actually the basis of

13     my assessment.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, around that time, what was the closest, so,

15     well, let's say the days after the explosion, what was the closest you

16     ever came to the point of impact?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand your

18     question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  At what -- what was the closest distance, was it 500

20     metres, was it 1 kilometre, was it 300 metres from the point of impact

21     that you were when assessing where the bomb impacted?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was my observation post, that

23     was between 3 and 3.5 kilometres, between 3.000 and 3500 metres.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, I'd like to focus our attention on

Page 24042

 1     paragraph 21 of your statement.

 2        Q.   Here you talk about Hrasnica and Dobrinja as having no

 3     exclusively civilian zones where enemy units or firing positions were not

 4     located.  According to your JNA training, was such a placement of ABiH

 5     units in accord with the laws of war?

 6        A.   We were taught in our military schools that he who plans,

 7     organises, and executes combat actions in an inhabited place shall remove

 8     civilians from the combat zone.  Therefore, the existence of weapons and

 9     of personnel in civilian zones is impermissible under international law.

10     That is what we were taught and that is an obvious example of the

11     violation of international law.

12        Q.   Okay.  When you say violation, violation by whom?

13        A.   By the adversary, the opposite side, the Muslims.  That was the

14     104th Brigade of the Army of BH.

15             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to page 7 in English and page 9 in

16     Serbian and look at paragraph 34.

17        Q.   You here are talking about snipers and the training and you

18     mention Exhibit P04463.

19             MR. IVETIC:  If we can please have P04463 in e-court.

20        Q.   And I would ask you, sir, if you could please tell us what did

21     your brigade use snipers for, and for this purpose if you can refer to

22     the document where applicable to explain the use of snipers by your

23     brigade, it would be helpful.

24        A.   Well, you see, my brigade held a part of the front towards the

25     slopes of Treskavica, Bjelasnica, Igman, then a part towards the

Page 24043

 1     inhabited places Hrasnica, Butmir, and initially at the outset of the war

 2     also Dobrinja.  We had 17 sniper rifles, 7.6 mm.  We used most of these

 3     snipers outside inhabited places.  As far as I can recall, I only had two

 4     sniper rifles in the river Zeljeznica where their potential could be used

 5     and that is so -- is confirmed by my order of the 31st of July 1994.  In

 6     item 5 of this order I said in selecting the area, the position for

 7     snipers, deploy in places outside inhabited places, the Igman area, and

 8     see that the protection possibilities of our units are favourable.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Please ask the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

11             MR. IVETIC:  One moment, sir.  One moment, sir.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please --

13             MR. IVETIC:  I believe the interpreter --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down.  The interpreters are

15     unable to follow your speed of speech.

16             MR. IVETIC:  And perhaps the microphone could be directed towards

17     him.  I believe they're having difficulty with the microphone as well.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Your Honour, that's it.  The microphone.  Thank

20     you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please slowly proceed.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I understand.  Thank you.  In

23     item 3, I ordered the following:  In order to ensure as economical and

24     effective a performance by snipers, including paired snipers against

25     enemy personnel, and then in parentheses I stress officers and soldiers,

Page 24044

 1     and taking into account the very limited quantity of ammunition,

 2     undertake new preparations in respect of the selection of positions, in

 3     brackets places for snipers, and at targets and the avoidance of negative

 4     counter-effects.  This means that sniper fire should not be used where

 5     enemy forces can fire back by opening fire on our units, columns of motor

 6     vehicles and people, civilians, especially children, and on roads used by

 7     buses for transport to Ilidza, Lukavica, and Kasindol.

 8             In item 4 I stress combat snipers should be issued with precise

 9     tasks, the place, the time, the mode of combat, mode of combat control,

10     and method of reporting the results.  Excuse me, in combat, primarily use

11     weapons with silencers and shoot with precision.  Use ammunition

12     sparingly.

13             If you will allow me, I should just like to clarify with a couple

14     of sentences what I actually meant and wanted to achieve by this order,

15     and I wanted exclusively to order that only important enemy personnel,

16     which is soldiers and officers, should be targeted.  There is no mention

17     of civilians at all.  Secondly, I put snipers outside inhabited places

18     because they operated 30 bullets per minute, and the distances in

19     inhabited places are small, in places -- in places even under 100 metres,

20     so that as all units had automatic weapons, where one rifle can eject 120

21     bullets a minute, and a group of shooters 360 bullets per minute, so the

22     probability of hitting targets by ordinary automatic weapons, then by

23     snipers, is much greater than by snipers.  Snipers are used outside

24     inhabited places, at distances up to 800 metres in good visibility

25     conditions, and, Your Honour, perhaps I should also add that this sniper

Page 24045

 1     achieves the best results when the trajectory of the bullet, of the --

 2     does not exceed the elevation of the target, which is called the range,

 3     the clear range.  This range, when it comes to targets such as a soldier

 4     in a trench, is 350 metres.  When it comes to targets up to 50

 5     centimetres, the range is 450 metres.  So that I believe that I properly

 6     instructed and correctly used my snipers, and in keeping with

 7     international law.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just for the sake of the record ask you the

 9     document you have read out and commented upon is from the 30th of July

10     1994, correct?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my document.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Because earlier you said on the order of the 31st

13     of July.  But that must be a slip on -- of the tongue.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, a slip of the tongue.

15     It's one day.  It doesn't really substantially change anything.

16             MR. IVETIC:

17        Q.   If I could move to another topic, sir.  Did you have occasion to

18     learn of a tunnel under the Butmir airport.

19        A.   Certainly.

20        Q.   What can you tell us about the types of things being transited

21     through the tunnel, according to your information?

22        A.   According to our information, the priority users -- those who

23     predominantly used the tunnel were the military the police and members of

24     the government, and also weapons, fuels, and ammunition when it comes to

25     materiel and equipment.

Page 24046

 1        Q.   Did you have any information about the capacity of the transit

 2     through the tunnel?

 3        A.   We found out about the tunnel towards the end of summer 1993 or

 4     in the autumn of 1993.  We did not know exactly how long the tunnel was.

 5     We assessed at the time that it was 800 metres long, whereas the actual

 6     length was 720.  Okay, we were mistaken there.  Defectors told us that it

 7     was about 150 metres wide -- long, and 100 metres wide.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked, and in this respect I also complete

 9     the record, about the capacity of the transit through the tunnel.  Now,

10     you were describing us exactly length or measurements, but that was about

11     capacity that you were asked.  Could you tell us what was the capacity of

12     the tunnel?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.  The capacity in

14     our assessment was about 4.000 men a day, people a day, on condition that

15     it is used only at night, and about 25 tonnes of materiel could be also

16     transferred through the tunnel.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What was the basis of your assessment of the

18     capacity?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was simple to.  It is

20     actually elementary school arithmetic.  It is simple to calculate.  If

21     you will allow me, I can explain.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the tunnel, as I said,

24     was about 800 metres long.  Units of the army, of all armies in the world

25     who move on foot at night move on average 2 to 4 kilometres per hour.  In

Page 24047

 1     our assessment we soldiers, we in the military, always opt for the worst

 2     case scenario, so in this case we took it that they were moving at the

 3     speed of two kilometres per hour because of the mud, because of the poor

 4     visibility, because of the small elevation of the slope, the gradient,

 5     et cetera.  So this is one element of the calculation.

 6             And when we have these elements, if we put them in proportion and

 7     in an equation with one unknown, 2.000 metres in 60 seconds are actually

 8     covered by the soldiers -- in 60 minutes, I apologise.  So 800 metres

 9     will be covered by X minutes.  So once that equation is solved, it turns

10     out that the time to pass through the tunnel was 24 minutes.  We said

11     that it was used only at night.  If we say that night lasts on the

12     average ten hours during 24 hours, so if we then take off eight hours for

13     the personnel and two hours for the materiel and equipment of the ten

14     hours, then 88 hours times 60 minutes, that is 480 minutes.  When we

15     divide that by 24 minutes, which is for one tour of soldiers to pass, the

16     result is 20 trips or journeys.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you ever tested this or was the assessment ever

18     verified as to speed or was it just a theoretical approach?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  These were practically --

20     practical tests.  This is written in our manuals.  We march with brigades

21     with thousands of kilometres.  I'm an infantry officer.  We have tested

22     this in practice time and again.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  I mean verified on the basis

24     of the specifics of this tunnel.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your permission, when we

Page 24048

 1     learned from -- what we learned from Muslims, our assessments verified,

 2     were proven true.  Actually, I have not finished what I started.  So 20

 3     trips could be made but on condition -- because of the height of the

 4     tunnel, let us say that the distance between the soldiers with their

 5     sidearms was 2 metres.  So 400 people could pass through the tunnel in 24

 6     hours.  But the unit is never grouped one by one.  That would be a column

 7     16 kilometres long.  That is why 50 per cent of this time is dedicated to

 8     the creation of interval, so spaces between columns.  Between every group

 9     of 400 people, which is the strength of a battalion --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I interrupted you for a good reason because what

11     I wanted to find out is whether it was just calculations or how it was

12     verified, and if you would -- could tell us how it was verified, then

13     please proceed.  If not, then I've heard sufficiently of your theoretical

14     arithmetic approach.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was verified because we received

16     information from people who had actually passed through the tunnel, and

17     covered it even in shorter times later when it was illuminated.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it's time for a break.

19             MR. IVETIC:  It is, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

21             MR. LUKIC:  I have three more questions in direct to put to this

22     witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we could, I leave it to you, perhaps together

24     with Mr. Mladic whether -- well, a short question doesn't mean that we

25     have a short answer.

Page 24049

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If you think you would be able to guide the witness

 3     in such a way that we could finish in the next five minutes, then it's

 4     okay.  Otherwise, we'll have to take the break first.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  I think since it's the break for the end of the day

 6     we could probably just wait until tomorrow and then we'll be sure to

 7     finish without overtaxing the translators too much.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we finish tomorrow.  Three more questions

 9     to be expected tomorrow.

10             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we will adjourn for the day.  We would like

12     to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30, but I also instruct you that

13     you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever about

14     your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or whether

15     that is testimony still to be given.  If that is clear to you, you may

16     follow the usher.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

18     It is clear.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

21     Tuesday, the 15th of July, 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of July,

24                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.