Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24136

 1                           Wednesday, 16 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Prosecution would have a

12     preliminary matter.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President, very briefly.

14             The Prosecution advises that it has received the complete English

15     translation for 65 ter 30939 which was admitted as P6643 through witness

16     Blasko Rasevic.  The existing English translation is partial, and just

17     for reference, the document was used on the 8th of July at transcript

18     pages 23630 through 23633.  The complete translation has been uploaded

19     into e-court under doc ID Y016-6522ET and we would request that the

20     complete translation replace the partial translation currently in

21     e-court.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, you are requested to replace the

23     existing translation of P6643 by doc ID Y016-6522ET.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And P6643 is admitted into evidence.

Page 24137

 1             Mr. Lukic, if there are any concerns about the translation as

 2     uploaded now, we would like to hear from you within 48 hours.

 3             Then, could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4             Meanwhile I use the time to deal with a few matters.  First, the

 5     scope and translation of Exhibit D314.  On the 27th of June of 2013, a

 6     handwritten intercept notebook covering the period 20 of April to the 9th

 7     of May 1995 was admitted under seal as D314.  It was admitted with

 8     witness RM279.  The questions put by the Defence were limited to the date

 9     on the cover page of the notebook.  Exhibit D314 contains 110 pages and

10     does not have an English translation.  The Chamber would like to know

11     from the Defence whether it intended to tender the entire notebook or

12     only its cover page.  And where I said "27th of June 2013," I might have

13     made a mistake, that it should be 2014.  But it is D314.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN MILANOVIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Milanovic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

20     the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony,

21     and Mr. Lukic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Milanovic.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 24138

 1        Q.   Yesterday we left off at the part where I asked you about the

 2     relief supplies that were distributed to the population in Foca after the

 3     first days of the conflict.  Did you personally take part in that?

 4        A.   Yes.  I told you that we set up a warehouse and brought to it all

 5     foodstuffs from the shops, and then two men, my late father, Pero

 6     Milanovic, and Gavro Elez or Pero Elez distributed all these supplies to

 7     the population irrespective of their ethnicity.

 8        Q.   Please can we see in e-court 1D4512?  This is a report of Radio

 9     Belgrade dated the 8th of April 1992.  The report was submitted by

10     Velibor Ostojic.  Let me first ask you whether you know who Velibor

11     Ostojic is.

12        A.   I do.  He was an MP in the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He is

13     a villager of the village of Celebici, as far as I know, and he was also

14     a member of the Crisis Staff in Foca.

15        Q.   In this report, in its first paragraph, it is stated -- somewhere

16     in the middle of the paragraph, in the newer version, it is stated that

17     the Serbian police have been acting independently for two days and the

18     entire territory of the municipality has been protected by the Serbian

19     Territorial Defence.

20             In the following paragraph, it is stated that inter-party talks

21     have begun between representatives of the Serbian and Muslim peoples on

22     delineating territory and separating organs of authority in a peaceful

23     and democratic way, and a unit of the Muslim people attacked positions of

24     the Serbian territorials not far from Foca.

25             My question to you is this:  Were you familiar with the fact that

Page 24139

 1     at the time negotiations were underway between the political

 2     representatives of the Serbs and Muslims to divide the territory of Foca

 3     municipality and to divide the organs of authority there?

 4        A.   I have already spoken about this.  The negotiations were

 5     conducted all the way as of the setting up of the Crisis Staff, and after

 6     the Serbian people walked out on the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 7     after the Crisis Staffs were set up, so I knew that these negotiations

 8     were being conducted.  I believe that I already referred to that in my

 9     previous words.

10        Q.   And the last paragraph, it is stated:

11             "On behalf of the crisis headquarters of the Serbian people in

12     the Foca municipality, we are calling on citizens of all ethnicities in

13     Foca to keep the peace, because Serbian territorials and the Serbian

14     police in the town are controlling all points, the town and the

15     approaches to the town."

16             Did you have occasion in those days to hear on Radio Belgrade or

17     any other radio any proclamations of the Crisis Staff calling the people

18     to keep the peace, or anything of what I've just referred to?  Did you

19     hear anything about these things on the radio?

20        A.   I personally did not hear anything on the radio, but my parents,

21     who were at home - because as I said I was on the front-line towards

22     Zugovici protecting Serbian property and Serbian lives - they did hear

23     Velibor Ostojic's report, and I believe it was by telephone that they

24     relayed to me the news that they had heard that proclamation on the radio

25     by Velibor Ostojic.

Page 24140

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We propose to tender this document.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

 3     be asked not overlap.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4512 receives number D577, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D577 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Could I ask one further question?  You said you brought

 9     foodstuffs from the shops to a warehouse.  On what basis did you bring

10     foodstuffs from shops to a warehouse?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the war broke out, all these

12     shops were burglarised and looted, and the Crisis Staff recommended that

13     people who were able to store foodstuffs bring it in and distribute it,

14     because of course the people were overtaken by the events and no one had

15     any foodstuffs in store.  So we took those foodstuffs, and as I had a

16     wine cellar, I had enough storage space, and I mentioned Dragoje Elez

17     also had a basement section which could be used as storage, and that is

18     how we did it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that include foodstuffs from shops owned by

20     non-Serbs?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I've already said that we

22     actually took the food from the state-owned shops along the lines of the

23     recommendation that was given us.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I might have missed that.

25             Please proceed.

Page 24141

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might ask a question, Mr. Lukic.

 2             Do you know what has been blackened out on the English

 3     translation and why?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.  We received this document from

 5     the -- actually, it's on the EDS so it's the Prosecution who placed this

 6     document on the EDS.  So we did not put any markings on the document.

 7     Maybe they know.  Probably it was previous news in these kind of

 8     documents.  If it's something else, then it's just shaded in black so

 9     it's not visible.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   The interpreters have asked us not to overlap so please wait a

13     bit after I've put my question.

14        A.   Okay, thank you.

15        Q.   Can we call up in e-court now document 65 ter number 15651?

16             Mr. Milanovic, we have a document before us of the Crisis Staff

17     in which the Crisis Staff orders that Hasan Pilav, of Muslim ethnicity

18     obviously, from Foca, be actually released from the Foca penal and

19     correctional facility.  Is this also consistent with your claim that at

20     the time the Crisis Staff was in charge of all aspects of life and work

21     in the city of Foca?

22        A.   Yes.  It confirms my claims that the Crisis Staff brought all the

23     decisions, controlled the Territorial Defence and the military police.

24     So this is a certificate to the effect that the detainee, as far as I can

25     see, Hasan Pilav, is to be released and that he had been subjected to

Page 24142

 1     informative processing by the Foca Serbian police station.  And on the

 2     left-hand side we have the signature of probably the person who

 3     interrogated him and the stamp of Foca municipality, I believe, and the

 4     signature of the president of the Crisis Staff.  So that all this

 5     confirms my claims that until the beginning of June, the Crisis Staff, up

 6     to the establishment of the operational group, of the operational staff,

 7     actually, was in charge and brought all the decisions, implemented all

 8     the decisions, practically was in control of the city.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We tender this document as well.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we proceed, could I ask you what was the

12     basis for the Crisis Staff being in a position to make decisions to be

13     executed by the military police?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff simply was the

15     municipal government at that time.  They were the authority.  So they --

16     after this division, after the negotiations with the Muslims, when the

17     Muslims walked out, actually when this division could not be agreed upon,

18     the Crisis Staff assumed all powers in the municipality.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And did the military authorities agree with the

20     military police to enforce decisions taken by the municipal Crisis Staff?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time, there still did not

22     exist military authorities.  There was the Territorial Defence and the

23     military police which was practically set up by the Crisis Staff.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But "military police" sounds very much as an

25     organised structure.

Page 24143

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we called it the military

 2     police but it was a police structure set up by the Crisis Staff.  Later,

 3     it would be incorporated in military units and thereby would acquire the

 4     strength, the status, of military police.  But we called them at that

 5     time military police because they kept law and order in the city.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Then only I ask for this --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We still have to ask for a number, Madam Registrar?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 15651 receives number D578, Your

11     Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Milanovic, after the withdrawal of Muslim forces from the

15     city of Foca, were there any attacks on Serbian positions and Serbian

16     villages?

17        A.   All the time, after the withdrawal of the Muslim forces, which

18     were armed, they actually made incursions in the territory which was

19     protected by the Territorial Defence of the city of Foca.  And they

20     set -- torched houses in Serbian villages, they killed civilians that

21     they ran across.  So these attacks actually lasted -- were mounted all

22     that time.

23        Q.   Were there any civilian casualties in the territory of Foca

24     municipality under the control of the Serbian forces?

25        A.   The total number of the civilian casualties, as far as I know,

Page 24144

 1     was about 100, in the territory which was under the control of the Serb

 2     forces and these were mostly elderly locals, women and children, as far

 3     as civilians are concerned.

 4             I know that on St. Nicholas Day in 1992, in the village of

 5     Josanica, in the general area of Foca, there were killed, I believe, 69

 6     but don't take my word for it - I'm not sure about the number - 69

 7     people, among them a small child, Danka, she was 2 and a half years old,

 8     and Drazen who was 6 years old and Dragan who was 12 years old.  That was

 9     something which actually devastated the population.  I was in Belgrade

10     for treatment.  These were alarming news, especially all the wounded who

11     had been wounded and were in other places for treatment.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the last part of

13     the sentence.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   The interpreter did not hear your last sentence.  At the end --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Lukic?

17     Or perhaps even the last part of the answer of the witness.

18             Witness, what was translated to us, I'll read that to you and

19     then please complete your answer:  You said that it was alarming news,

20     "especially all the wounded who had been wounded and were in other places

21     for treatment."  And then you added something.  Could you repeat that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The population was also alarmed,

23     the population in the city.  I know because I heard it from my parents

24     because we maintained constant telephone connections.  We talked on the

25     telephone all the time.

Page 24145

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   During the fighting in the town of Foca itself, that is to say

 4     from the 8th of April 1992 onwards, were there any houses that had been

 5     torched in the town of Foca itself?

 6        A.   In the town of Foca, there were houses that had been torched, and

 7     I think that on the 11th of April, the first houses burned in the town of

 8     Foca.  And these were Serb houses.  The house of the late Mico Krnojelac,

 9     the house and restaurants of the Grujic's, the house of the Kovac's, of

10     the Kovacevic's.  I cannot recall the other surnames at this moment but

11     about 10 or 12 Serb houses in Donje Polje, a neighbourhood that was held

12     by the Muslims, as I've already said, from the 8th until the 12th of

13     April.  I think it was on the 11th that these buildings were torched.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, may I put a question to the witness?

15             Witness, you told us a lot about civilian casualties, including

16     details, some names of children.  What exactly is the source of your

17     knowledge?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source of my knowledge are my

19     parents because I was undergoing medical treatment at the time.  I've

20     already said that.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  I know, I heard that that you were

22     constantly on the phone with them.  This is the only source of your

23     knowledge about these details and the number of casualties?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are monuments, there are

25     tombstones.  That is in the religion of the Serbian people, to make

Page 24146

 1     tombstones for all the dead.  Later on, when I returned to Foca, I --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue your sentence.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I belong to the veterans

 4     organisation of Foca.  Every year, we marked these Serb victims'

 5     suffering.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. Lukic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you another question?  You talked about

 9     Serb houses being torched.  Were any non-Serb houses being torched?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on that day but later, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now that we are on the subject, I actually wanted to ask you

14     about that.  Were any Muslim houses torched in your street?

15        A.   Yes.  That's just what I said to the Presiding Judge too.  It

16     would happen that certain groups that did not belong to the Territorial

17     Defence or any other unit, quite simply, while the territorials were at

18     the defence lines, they were in town, they were looting houses, and

19     usually in order to cover their tracks, they would torch these houses.

20     These were groups that were not under anyone's control.  They had come

21     from elsewhere.

22             And in my street, a few houses were torched on that day too.  I

23     had come back from the front-line.  The firemen were there with the

24     resources they had available.  They were trying to extinguish the fire,

25     but mostly old wooden houses and other houses that were made of adobe.  I

Page 24147

 1     don't know if you know what that is.  That's a very old material used for

 2     building houses.  As for the more modern houses, only the roof had been

 3     burned or perhaps parts of the wood panelling.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you'd permit one more question.  Could

 5     you in more detail explain what groups it were that are responsible for

 6     this torching?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Groups that had come from

 8     elsewhere, from Serbia, Montenegro, the so-called "dogs of war."  I dealt

 9     with this a bit.  This happened in all wars, that such people would

10     organise themselves in order to loot for their own personal gain.  And

11     then they would go to town.  They did not take part in any Territorial

12     Defence actions, but they would steal things, usually technical

13     equipment, anything that they could carry, and that was for their own

14     personal gain.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   In relation to these torchings and other things I would like to

17     ask you something now.  During the war, were there people who were

18     prepared to take revenge?

19        A.   Believe me, even that would happen.  For example, a father's son

20     would get killed or a son's father, and then they would take revenge and

21     kill.  When all citizens would hear of a violent death or of a case of

22     several Serb soldiers being killed while defending the territory, these

23     people had weapons and it was very hard to control them.  That's where

24     this so-called military police operated.  Not so-called, military police.

25     They did operate.  They actually detained these people but in the

Page 24148

 1     meantime they would cause harm, they would torch a house or do something

 2     like that.

 3        Q.   Until when were you involved in the military units in the

 4     territory of the town of Foca?

 5        A.   I was not involved in military units, Mr. Lukic.  I was a member

 6     of the Territorial Defence of the municipality of Foca, and I was there

 7     until the 26th of May.  After my wounding - and I was wounded on the 26th

 8     of May 1992 - it was only in the beginning of June that military services

 9     and a military command were established.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Where was your unit at the moment when you were

11     wounded?

12        A.   My unit held the line in Osanica, near the repeater, up until --

13     up to the bridge, on the Osanica river.  And on the other side of this

14     river, or rather brook, there were fortified Muslim positions.

15        Q.   How serious were the wounds?

16        A.   Well, I was wounded directly in combat.  Because they attacked

17     the defence line.  Our defence line was attacked by the Muslims and I was

18     seriously wounded, very seriously wounded.  Since I was reclining, one of

19     the bullets entered through the shoulder and went all the way down the

20     spine and then exited.  And the second bullet hit me in my right leg, and

21     that one caused a lot more damage in the subsequent period because the

22     second -- the second one was a so-called dumdum bullet.  It came from an

23     automatic weapon so it was obtuse on the top, and then there was a cross

24     on the top.  The Muslim units used that because when that kind of bullet

25     is fired and when it hits anyone or anything, it has an irregular

Page 24149

 1     trajectory, and it simply destroys everything along its path.

 2             Since I was very close to the enemy then, five or six metres away

 3     only, my hip bone was fractured in 23 places and also the sciatic nerve

 4     was destroyed.  I spent a year bed-ridden, after that in a wheelchair,

 5     and it was only three years later that I managed to stand on crutches.

 6     There is medical documentation supporting all of that from Foca,

 7     Belgrade, and the medical spas where I was treated.

 8        Q.   Did you ever become a member of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 9     You were in TO formations until the 26th of May 1992.  So up until then,

10     did you become a member of the VRS, and if so, when?

11        A.   No.  I've already mentioned that it was only in the beginning of

12     June that the organs of the Army of Republika Srpska were established, in

13     Foca, that is.

14        Q.   I shall conclude with the following question.  Did you or your

15     family personally have any problems with these criminals in uniforms, the

16     "dogs of war," as you called them?

17        A.   As I've already pointed out when answering one of these

18     questions, these people who were milling about town at one moment -- at

19     one point in time reached my house.  They did not care whether it was a

20     Muslim or a Serb house.  Since my father was in front of the house, they

21     noticed that there is a warehouse there with alcoholic drinks.  They

22     forced my father to open the warehouse and to load as many drinks as they

23     wanted onto their vehicles.  I was in the house.  My mother called me and

24     of course, since I had weapons, I took my very own weapons, went

25     downstairs.  And when they saw me armed, they quite simply knew that,

Page 24150

 1     first of all, I was a Serb, and secondly, that they had come to a place

 2     where they most probably could not go away with the things that they had

 3     come to get.  I disarmed them, made them go away, called the police, and

 4     then the police probably expelled them from town.

 5        Q.   Although I said it's the last question, I will have one more,

 6     though.  The military police, did they arrest these bandits?

 7        A.   Yes.  Arrests occurred too.  On one occasion, even a man like

 8     this was killed.  At a point where people were not supposed to go any

 9     further, this man stopped, although he was cautioned, the policemen shot

10     him.  He was a member of these units that had come uninvited.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Milanovic.  That is

12     all that we have for you at this moment.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

14             Mr. Milanovic, I would have one question for you.  Do you have

15     any knowledge about persons detained, well, let's say, on from the 12th,

16     13th of April, in the municipal penitentiary facility and their fate?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at the defence lines all the

18     time, so I really had nothing to do with what was going on in town,

19     particularly not the prison.  I have no idea.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Another question.  You explained the situation in

22     your house, where these criminals tried to take as many alcoholic drinks

23     as possible.  How many people were there?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Thank you.

Page 24151

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I still have another question.  You told us about

 2     arrests of persons belonging to these groups, and even one person killed.

 3     Do you have any names of those arrested or the person you said was

 4     killed?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know because these

 6     were people who had come from elsewhere.  I really don't know their

 7     names.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But once arrested, I take it that they have

 9     identified them.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most probably it was the police but

11     I did not carry out any further investigation in this regard.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any personal knowledge about these

13     arrests?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already told you, these people

15     who came to my house had been arrested.  I heard that when they would

16     find them looting elsewhere in town they would arrest them too.  As for

17     this case when this person was killed, it was at a check-point actually

18     where people were not supposed to pass.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But my question was:  What was your source of

20     knowledge in relation to those arrested, not at your door-step, and about

21     this person being killed at the check-point?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, people who were in town no

23     everything, as we say in our parts.  If anything happens to anyone in

24     town, people talk about it, recount it, and then many people who were on

25     the spot or who had heard about this talked about it.

Page 24152

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I also have a question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question for you, sir.  You were asked a

 5     question by Mr. Lukic about these "dogs of war" and he described them as

 6     being in uniform.  Did they wear uniforms?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say that they were in

 8     uniform?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I know you did not say so.  That's why I'm saying

10     the uniform was used by Mr. Lukic and I'm trying to confirm with you

11     whether they did wear uniforms.  Did they wear uniforms?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had no insignia or uniforms.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, are you ready to cross-examine the

15     witness?

16             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Milanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

18     Ms. Bibles.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Bibles is counsel for

19     the Prosecution.

20             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Milanovic.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   I have some specific questions to ask you about your testimony.

Page 24153

 1     First, have you ever been known by the nickname Cuba, C-u-b-a?

 2        A.   Not Cuba but Cuba.  We have the letter "Ch".

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  C with a diacritic.

 4        A.   So that's been my nickname since I was a little boy.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   Can you tell us whether you were involved in the SDS before the

 7     war?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Were you involved in the SDS during the war?

10        A.   No.  I can only tell you that I was always in the opposition, the

11     opposition.

12        Q.   What do you mean by "the opposition"?

13        A.   Well, the SDS is a parliamentary party in the Republika Srpska,

14     and I am currently a member of the NDP which is an opposition party.

15     Prior to that I was a member of the SNS.

16        Q.   Now, is it true that you were a courier of the JNA post in

17     Ustikolina at some point in your life?

18        A.   Yes.  The organisation of the Yugoslav People's Army while it

19     existed was such that there was a reserve force for contingencies.  I was

20     a member of the reserve force and a courier for the military post in

21     Ustikolina.

22        Q.   Can you tell us when you were in that position?

23        A.   Well, my entire schedule, as far as I remember, after the

24     military duties, you would be assigned to the reserve.  No, after you did

25     your military service, you would be assigned to the reserve force and

Page 24154

 1     I was there for the -- for some five years, I believe.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what time period that would have been?  Which

 3     years?

 4        A.   Until the war, I was a courier, and after you finish your

 5     military service, you would be assigned to the reserve force.  That was

 6     something which was done routinely in our country.

 7        Q.   So is it accurate that you were in that position leading up into

 8     early 1992?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Would you agree with me that the facilities at Ustikolina include

11     a fuel depot and a barracks?

12        A.   There were facilities in Ustikolina.  They had fuel depots and

13     they had also ammunition and weapons depot.

14        Q.   And there were warehouses of ammunition and weapons at that

15     facility?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You would agree, then, that Foca benefitted from a strong JNA

18     presence up to and at the beginning of the conflict?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P3030 on our screens?  If we could

21     go to the second to the last page in English and the last page in B/C/S.

22        Q.   Mr. Milanovic, I'd like -- I'd next like to turn to your

23     testimony regarding the self-organised platoons and how they were

24     equipped you described starting in March of 1992.

25             When it comes up on the screen, you'll see a 20 March 1992 JNA

Page 24155

 1     report describing the conclusions and evaluation of the situation in the

 2     BiH territory in the zone of responsibility of the 2nd Military District.

 3     The page that appears to be up on the B/C/S contains a chart which shows

 4     how many Serb men in the municipalities were armed by the JNA.  If you

 5     look down at number 22, do you see that Foca is listed there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So you see that this shows that there were 3.000 men in Foca

 8     armed by the JNA by the 20th of March 1992.

 9             If we could now turn to page 6 in English and page 8 in B/C/S,

10     when this page comes up, sir, I will ask you to look about halfway down

11     the page under E, the letter E, which I'll read:

12             "In the area of the 4th VO and the municipalities of Kalinovik,

13     Foca, Cajnice and Gorazde, the volunteer units number 6,500 men.  (The

14     units were established earlier by the 4th Corps.)"

15             Sir, isn't it true that this report shows that thousands of Serb

16     men in Foca were in fact trained and armed by the JNA?

17        A.   I do not know what assessments these are of the army of

18     Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav army, but we only got our first weapons from the

19     Territorial Defence of Foca practically at the time the war began.

20     I really don't know anything about this.

21        Q.   Mr. Milanovic, this shows that the Serb forces, thousands of them

22     in Foca, weren't just self-organised, that they received significant

23     support from one of the strongest armies in the world.  Do you agree with

24     that?

25        A.   No, because I repeat:  At the beginning when we started posting

Page 24156

 1     guards and patrolling, we had only our personal side weapons and some

 2     hunting weaponry.  And after the conflict broke out, the Territorial

 3     Defence gave us M-47, obsolete guns, and only some people had

 4     semi-automatic and automatic rifles.

 5        Q.   And we'll shift now to a different topic.  You've testified that

 6     Miroslav Stanic was the president of the Crisis Staff.  Is it true that

 7     he controlled all aspects of life in Foca?

 8        A.   Not him personally, but the Crisis Staff, yes, and the Crisis

 9     Staff comprised another ten men or so, if I remember correctly.

10        Q.   Was the Serb Crisis Staff headquarters located in Cerezluk?

11        A.   Prior to the outbreak of the conflict, yes, it was.  After the

12     conflict broke out and the city came under the control of the

13     territorials, the headquarters was relocated to the municipality

14     building.

15        Q.   Was Mr. Stanic the commander of the TO during all of April 1992?

16        A.   Mr. Cedo Zelovic was the TO commander before the war and

17     continued to be that after the war.  Mr. Stanic was the president of the

18     Crisis Staff and the commander of the TO, and that is how he introduced

19     himself and that is how he signed himself, as we could see on the

20     documents -- in the documents that Mr. Lukic has shown.

21        Q.   I'd like to show you a very short video-clip of an interview

22     which was conducted of Mr. Stanic during the war.  He's describing an

23     event that is relevant to your testimony, so I'll have some questions to

24     ask you after we watch the video.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, we will be looking at 65 ter 27978J.

Page 24157

 1     The booths have been provided with a transcript.  I am not sure if

 2     they've had the opportunity to verify that.  So we may need to play it

 3     twice, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Play it twice.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  I'll ask Ms. Stewart to do so.  Thank you.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MS. BIBLES:  And now we'll play it the second time with

 8     translation.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] The Serbian Democratic Party

11     abandoned all political activities at that time and shifted to the

12     self-organising of the Serbian people because it had seen the dark clouds

13     rolling towards the people.  The SDS very soon formed eight battalions

14     which were led and some of them still are by the then-reserve Serbian

15     officers.  It worked on the military organisation and providing materiel

16     supplies for the battalions.  I would like to particularly mention

17     something, evoke something that I never told in public in three or four

18     years now.  And this took place in June 1991 during the inspection of one

19     of the battalions on the Zlataj Mountain, when I saw a magnificent scene,

20     namely the battalion was lined up, the companies were lined up, the

21     quartermaster unit was on the site, and above them the tri-colour Serbian

22     flag with the cross and the 4 S's in a hollow beech tree.  The Serbs with

23     their national symbols working totally underground since it was in June

24     1991.

25             MS. BIBLES:

Page 24158

 1        Q.   Sir, yesterday, Judge Fluegge asked you what you meant by a

 2     self-formed platoon and you prefaced your answer to him with an

 3     explanation, including stories being handed down for generations of

 4     crimes done to Serbs, and you described units like those in World War II.

 5             Now, Mr. Stanic described that Serb self-organisation seems to

 6     mean the creation of eight battalions, one of which was inspected in June

 7     of 1991.  I want to clarify.  By "self-formed," are you using the phrase

 8     in the same way that Mr. Stanic uses "self-organisation" of the Serb

 9     people in this interview?

10        A.   No.  Mr. Stanic is talking all the time about the Serbian

11     Democratic Party and the activities of the SDS.  I told you that I was

12     not a member of the Serbian Democratic Party ever and I'm not acquainted

13     with their activities.

14             But knowing Mr. Stanic personally, I believe that he said this

15     rather in a literary vein, in order to get some admiration from the

16     audience, then that it was really true because I have my doubts, because

17     he we really self-organised.  That meant we were organised in the circle

18     of neighbours and the locals from the area.  It was only in June 1992

19     that the groups were set up which were set up within the framework of the

20     military authorities.

21        Q.   Mr. Milanovic, I put to you that long before March 1992, in Foca,

22     Serb forces were organised, trained, armed and poised to fight for the

23     Serb cause.  Don't you agree with that proposition?

24        A.   I was not aware of that.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I move to admit 65 ter 27978J.

Page 24159

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 27978J receives number P6679.  However,

 3     Your Honours, we don't have at this moment the video.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  The CD is on Ms. Stewart's desk and will be here

 5     during the next break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the usher could assist which then removes

 7     any obstacle to admission.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, at this point I'm going to shift

 9     directions and I note the time.  It might be a good time for the break.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but let's first decide on admission.  P6679 is

11     admitted into evidence.

12             We take a break and resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.  The witness

13     may follow the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

19     into the courtroom, I'd like to address the following matter in relation

20     to D576:  On the 15th of July, D576 was admitted into evidence.  The

21     English translation contains additional text on page 3 which is

22     non-existent in the B/C/S version.  The parties were informed about this

23     issue by the Chamber on the 11th of July and the 14th of July by means of

24     informal communication.  So far, the parties have not provided the

25     Chamber with any explanation and the Chamber is inviting the parties to

Page 24160

 1     clarify this issue at shortest notice.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Sir, this morning you testified that you are a member of the

 6     veterans association.  Is the president Veselinko Simovic?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Just to ask a little further about this association, is this

 9     veterans association open to members, people who are members of the TO?

10        A.   It is open to all who were members of the TO or any other

11     military unit.  It is the veterans association.  Actually, the name is

12     combatants association and the president is Goran or Gordan Kalajdzic

13     currently, and anyone can become a member of this -- people that

14     I referred to previously.

15        Q.   I might ask you to spell the last name of the man what you've

16     just described as the president.

17        A.   K-a-l-a-j-d-z-i-c.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The Z and the C have diacritical marks.

19        A.   This is an association of citizens like any other citizens

20     association, except that it gathers the combatants of the war.

21        Q.   Sir, when your platoon and other Serb units were integrated into

22     the Foca TO, was your battalion commander Zoran Vukovic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then to clear up a name that you used this morning at

25     temporary transcript page 3, starting at line 7, you were describing your

Page 24161

 1     father and another individual distributing, I believe, food.  The name

 2     that was on the transcript was Pero Elez.  Was this commander Pero Elez?

 3        A.   That is not correctly translated.  Pero Milanovic, my father, and

 4     Gavro Elez were mentioned.  Those are the names I mentioned.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   I'd like to shift to the topic of when you were injured.  Did

 9     this take places in Gorazde?

10        A.   No, not in Gorazde.  At the demarcation line, the administrative

11     separation line between the municipality of Foca and the municipality of

12     Gorazde in a place called Osanica.

13        Q.   Isn't Osanica in Gorazde?

14        A.   Now it is.  At that time it was the boundary between the Gorazde

15     and Foca municipalities.  Osanica is some 18 kilometres from Gorazde, I

16     believe.

17        Q.   On that particular date, who ordered you to go to this location?

18        A.   As I've already said, we were there for a certain period of time

19     because this was the line of separation and the line of defence for the

20     Serb Municipality of Foca.  On the other side, as I've also already said,

21     there were fortified Muslim forces that protected the municipality of

22     Gorazde.  Municipality and town are two completely different concepts.

23        Q.   Sir --

24        A.   This is --

25        Q.   -- if you could just answer my question.  Who ordered you to go

Page 24162

 1     to this location?

 2        A.   Well, the entire battalion was on that line.  That was the

 3     deployment concerned so we were there for already a month, all that time.

 4     It was ordered by the Crisis Staff.  They were still the ones issuing

 5     orders through the Territorial Defence.

 6        Q.   Now, shifting topics, yesterday and today you've discussed a

 7     penitentiary.  Is this place known as KP Dom?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P574 on our screens?  This is a

10     request from the Foca Tactical Group command.

11        Q.   Sir, as this comes on the screen, you'll see that this is a

12     request for KP Dom signed by commander Miro Stanic and dated 8 May of

13     1992.  Now, you were still fighting obviously as part of the TO at this

14     point; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did your unit take prisoners?

17        A.   No.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I don't have any objection, only we don't

19     have on our screens anything, so --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Neither do we.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have.

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Sir, at this point in time, the 8th of May 1992, can you tell us

24     who the warden of KP Dom was?

25        A.   Believe me, I don't know because I was not in touch with the KP

Page 24163

 1     Dom.

 2        Q.   All right.  I think I may have already asked the questions for

 3     this document.  We can --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just ask a question now?

 5             Sir, is Miro Stanic the same person as Miroslav Stanic who was

 6     the president of the Crisis Staff?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.  And we'll shift now to a document that

10     was introduced with you yesterday, D --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before -- yes, you mention the number and then I'll

12     have a question for the witness.

13             MS. BIBLES:  D576.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we leave this one on the screen for a

15     moment.

16             Mr. Milanovic, if you reserved rooms for prisoners of war, who,

17     in your perception, would be responsible for the detention of those

18     imprisoned in those rooms?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, those who ask for

20     reserving this are the people responsible for those people.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So those who have taken them prisoners of war

22     are still responsible for those detained, even if it's in the KP Dom?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I've said those who ask for

24     that, and here you say that it is Mr. Miro Stanic or Miroslav Stanic, who

25     was president of the Crisis Staff.

Page 24164

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, he says "Please approve," but does that mean

 2     that the Crisis Staff is responsible for prisoners of war?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the next sentence, he says the

 4     premises would be used temporarily, and once there is no need for that,

 5     we will leave them in a proper condition.  So he says that he will take

 6     care of that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, what, then, has the command of the Foca

 8     Tactical Group to do with all this?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 8th of May, the tactical

10     group was not in existence in Foca yet.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, nevertheless, that's what the document says,

12     isn't it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've said to you a moment

14     ago, when he we were watching that video footage, that this looks like

15     Mr. Miro Stanic because he was a Bohemian sort who liked to brag a bit,

16     and he probably signed this unconsciously as commander.  He was president

17     of the Crisis Staff, though.  I cannot read what it says on the stamp.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But at the top of it, it says, "Command of the Foca

19     Tactical Group."  "Commanda," and then --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, if it can be enlarged.

21        A.   It cannot be seen properly.

22             MR. LUKIC:  "TG," maybe.  I cannot see it.  It's more "PT"

23     something.  I don't know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, if there is any --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what it looks like to me

Page 24165

 1     too.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And could we enlarge the left top corner of the

 3     document considerably?  Yes.  And if it would be "PT," what would that

 4     stand for?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What would be tactical group?  How would you -- what

 7     abbreviation would you use for that in your language?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "TG."  This is obviously "P."

 9     Maybe it's "PJ."  It cannot be seen very well.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And if it would be "PJ," what would it stand for, in

11     your view?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

14             MS. BIBLES:

15        Q.   Sir, actually, today at temporary transcript page 13, line 1, you

16     testified that the military service and military command were established

17     in Foca at the beginning of June.  Could you explain to us very briefly

18     what you know about this process?

19        A.   Well, I was wounded on the 26th of May, and in that period of

20     time, I was in hospital and I don't know how things evolved exactly, but

21     I know that this was in the beginning of June and that this period of

22     transformation went on for quite a long time.

23        Q.   Now --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps one more question.  Do you consider that

25     it's possible to take prisoners of war if you're not a military authority

Page 24166

 1     or a military unit or a military -- military person?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, obviously the Crisis Staff at

 3     one moment, before the military authorities were established, they were

 4     the ones carrying out military authority and they believed that they

 5     could do that.  I wouldn't want to go into the consideration of such a

 6     situation because it really would not belong to my domain.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go to P0 -- I believe it's 575.  I

 9     believe this is the response to the request we see in front of us.

10        Q.   I'd ask you to look closely at the line that starts with,

11     "Pursuant to a request by the ..."  Wouldn't you agree that it's -- the

12     response to the request is clearly indicating that it was a request from

13     the Foca TG command?

14        A.   As far as I know, TG did not exist yet.  And now who wrote this,

15     I don't know, because there is a reference here to the 8th of January --

16     no, I'm sorry, the 8th of May.

17        Q.   Sir, wouldn't you agree this refers to an 8th of May 1992 request

18     from the Foca TG command, which is the document we've just seen?

19        A.   It didn't say "TG" a moment ago.  It said "PJ" or whatever it

20     was.  And now this is a response.  Isn't it?  Yes.  It's a response.  And

21     these premises are being given to them, but who wrote this and why and

22     how come, I don't understand.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I'm now going to shift away.

24             Yesterday we looked at a document which appeared to be a

25     surrender of weapons agreement with the Muslims in the village of

Page 24167

 1     Trosanj.  You recall that line of questioning?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Judge Moloto asked you a question about whether the Muslims in

 4     this village were going to live normally after this agreement.  Now,

 5     later in your testimony, at transcript page 24134, you stated:

 6             "The Muslim population which remained in Foca continued to live

 7     normally, as far as it was possible, for both the Muslim and Serb

 8     population in conditions of war."

 9             You then went on to talk about the humanitarian aid set up for

10     all inhabitants.

11             Sir, this Trial Chamber has heard evidence that Muslims from this

12     very village which signed this agreement were attacked on 3 July 1992.

13     The testimony is that unarmed civilian -- Muslim civilians were murdered

14     and survivors were subjected to horrible sexual offences for months and

15     years.

16             Sir, I put it to you that agreements like the one in D576 were

17     part of a plan to make it easier to eliminate the Muslims who lived and

18     remained in Foca.  Don't you agree that the real intent of the Serb

19     forces was to create a purely Serb Foca?

20        A.   I don't agree with you, because when I addressed you in terms of

21     one of the previous questions, I said that Muslims and Serbs had left the

22     town even before that.  That is to say that neither felt safe.  There was

23     no intention, in my opinion, to establish any kind of ethnically pure

24     municipality of Foca.

25        Q.   Sir, isn't it true that by September of 1992, Foca was comprised

Page 24168

 1     or was 99 per cent Serb?

 2        A.   I'm not aware of that.  In September, I was still in Belgrade

 3     undergoing medical treatment and I really don't know.

 4        Q.   If we could go to P355, page 66 in English and B/C/S?

 5             Sir, this is a notebook entry from Ratko Mladic's notebook,

 6     recording that he attended a meeting in Foca on 17 September 1992.

 7             If you look down about the first -- the first top third of the

 8     page, you'll see that Miroslav Stanic is noted as being head of the War

 9     Presidency.

10        A.   I see that.

11        Q.   And do you see that after noting that "Foca was supposed to be

12     the second Islamic centre for Muslims in Europe" and was 51 per cent

13     Muslim before the report -- or excuse me, before the war, he reported now

14     the percentage of Serbs in Foca is 99 per cent.  Sir, isn't it true that

15     Foca, over the early course -- the first few months of the war in 1992

16     did, in fact, become nearly ethnically pure Serb?

17        A.   I'm not aware of that.  That is what Mr. Miroslav Stanic said

18     here.  I have already told you what I think of Mr. Miroslav Stanic.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I have no further examination at this

21     point.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

23             Mr. Lukic, any further questions for the witness?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Just a few, Your Honours.

25             I was waiting for you.

Page 24169

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, yes.  If you say just a few, then I expect,

 2     unless I shout no, it should be a lot or it should be none, that you just

 3     proceed, Mr. Lukic.  Yes.  I apologise.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 6             MR. LUKIC:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Milanovic, just a few questions.  My

 8     colleague put a question to you about your membership in the JNA and the

 9     reserve force.  What was established was that until early 1992, you were

10     a member.  When did you receive your last assignment for the JNA, or,

11     rather, the reserve force of the JNA?

12        A.   During 1991, in the second half, the JNA moved from Ustikolina

13     all their ammunition, fuel and weapons.  This materiel was boarded on to

14     trucks.  They went to Serbia, wherever, but practically everything had

15     been taken out of Ustikolina.

16             The last task I had was from military post 6141 Ustikolina when

17     at some point in February they called us and asked us to distribute

18     call-up papers once again.  I've already explained this.  This is

19     something that existed in our country, the reserve force.  If something

20     were to happen, then both Serbs and Muslims will be called up, and I was

21     given this assignment to give these call-up papers.  However, none of the

22     persons who were there wished to respond to the call-up.  We either did

23     not find them at home or they did not want to receive call-up papers and

24     so on.

25        Q.   Let us look at P3030 again.  This is a document shown to you by

Page 24170

 1     the Prosecutor.  I need the same page.  In the English version; it is

 2     page 6; in the B/C/S version, it is page 8.

 3             As you were not a member of the SDS, I cannot ask you about the

 4     arming of their volunteer units, but the weapons that was distributed

 5     prior to the war, do you know, in other words, anything about the

 6     distribution of weapons by the TO?

 7        A.   It was only after the conflicts broke out in Foca that we

 8     received weapons from the Territorial Defence of Foca.

 9        Q.   So you know nothing about the distribution of weapons?

10        A.   Before that, I know nothing.

11             MR. LUKIC:  That's all I had for this witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

13                           Questioned by the Court:

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I -- since we have P3030 on our screen anyhow,

15     could I take the witness to page 6 in English, and I must admit that I do

16     not know what the B/C/S page is.  Perhaps we could --

17             MR. LUKIC:  In B/C/S it's page 8.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 8.  I think we need to go back to the previous

19     page.  Could you please read for yourself, witness, paragraph 5, about

20     volunteer forces in the 2nd VO?  Once you've done with this page, could

21     you please tell us so that we move to the next page.

22        A.   Yes.  Now, please.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Next page in B/C/S.  Have you read it?  I'm not

24     interested in the numbers primarily, just including paragraph (c).

25        A.   I've read it.

Page 24171

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain to us how volunteer units were

 2     dealt with in this document, which is a military document, with details

 3     such as where they are located, which is indicated apparently on a map,

 4     and where, under paragraph (c), it is emphasised that the volunteer units

 5     are not part of the JNA and the TO establishment structure.  Therefore, a

 6     considerable number of volunteers in the military sense to be excluded

 7     from being part of the JNA and the TO.  And all this in March 1992.

 8        A.   As far as I can see from the document, this was done by the

 9     military command.  How they did it and who with, I really don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm asking you because an answer might shed some

11     light on the subordination of considerable numbers of troops in or

12     outside the regular structures.

13        A.   I don't know.  I've explained everything which had to do with the

14     establishment of my platoon, the start of the work of the TO.  What the

15     army did and who they did it with is something I really don't know.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no idea about the activities of the army

17     and the JNA distributing weapons in large numbers?

18        A.   No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know anything about the SDS distributing

20     weapons?

21        A.   I don't know anything but we heard a statement from which one can

22     deduce that the SDS did have some activities or cooperated on that.  But

23     I personally really don't know anything about it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any specific reason to challenge or to

25     doubt what is written in these documents -- in this document?

Page 24172

 1        A.   It is a military document.  I can neither challenge it or say

 2     that it is correct.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Any further questions triggered by that?

 5             Then, Mr. Milanovic, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

 6     thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the

 7     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and

 8     I wish you a safe return home again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we use that time which is left for a few

12     other matters.  Could I first seek a follow-up on what I dealt with this

13     morning, that is, the tendering of the entire notebook, D314?  Mr. Lukic?

14             MR. LUKIC:  I have to admit that did I not have time to check

15     this, Your Honour.  We probably will not tender.  Probably.  I cannot

16     promise.  That's 110 pages.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's wait for your final answer.

18             Then the discrepancy between the B/C/S original and the English

19     translation regarding D576, any response to that?  Ms. Bibles?

20             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I will have to get back to the Chamber

21     on that.  I think I recall this issue, but I'll have to check with one of

22     the attorneys and get back with you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I have another matter which is an update

24     on expert reports.

25             On the 5th of June 2014, the Chamber instructed the Defence to

Page 24173

 1     file monthly updates on the progress of expert reports.  The next report

 2     is due on the 21st of July, and the Chamber asks the Defence to include

 3     in this filing, as attachments to the update, the two updates that the

 4     Chamber and the Prosecution received through e-mails on the 3rd of June

 5     and the 20th of June 2014.

 6             In its filing on the 20th of July, the Chamber asked the Defence

 7     to also address the following three witnesses who, in the Defence witness

 8     list, are indicated as expert witnesses but who have not been dealt with

 9     if any of the previous updates.  That is Dragomir Keserovic, Goran Krcmar

10     and Zoran Stankovic.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I add to this the following:  Mr. Lukic, it's only a

13     short while ago that we listened to a witness who appeared as an expert

14     in another case before this Tribunal, and it looked as if this witness

15     had his own views on the necessity of sourcing his expert opinions where

16     the facts were found, what sources he used.  You may understand from the

17     questions that were put to that witness in relation to his previous

18     expert report that the Chamber had some concerns about the quality and

19     the requirements for an expert report.  Would you please keep that

20     clearly in mind.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Absolutely.  We did not call this witness as an

22     expert witness, and I hope that our expertise from our witnesses will not

23     be composed in the way he explained he did his.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Where he said that a professor is -- makes a

25     great difference apparently between a scientific report and an academic

Page 24174

 1     report and an expert report.  That was worrying.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber suggests the following to the parties:

 4     If we take a break now, after the break the Chamber would like to receive

 5     answers to the issues that were raised this morning about page 3 and

 6     about the tendering of all of the report -- all of the notebook or just

 7     part of it, so that you have a moment to consult with whomever should be

 8     knowledgeable about that, and after the break, the Chamber also intends

 9     then to deliver one decision and one instruction.

10             Then we take a break, and let's be generous for the time being.

11     We resume at 12.00, and it will not take longer than more than -- any

12     longer than 10 or 15 minutes.

13             We take a break.

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.34 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.01 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's deal first with the matter still open.  That

17     is the scope of D314.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.  I was instructed that

19     what we need from this document is only page 1, 2 and the last one.  But

20     the problem is that it's the Prosecution document, so they would have to

21     help us, probably Ms. Janet.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're invited to help.  That's understood.

23             Then upload the relevant pages, check whether there is

24     translation of each of the pages you would like to tender, and the

25     Prosecution is invited to consider whether there is any objection against

Page 24175

 1     this reduced tendering.  That's one.

 2             Second was the three pages against the two in relation to D576.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  The last English page is a

 4     translation of something that is not in the B/C/S.  Obviously that

 5     document needs to be redacted to the first two English pages which

 6     translate only the B/C/S.  And we can --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to reduce it, to upload it into

 8     e-court, and then Madam Registrar will receive instructions to replace

 9     the existing English translation into the new reduced one.

10             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honour --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, it's the Defence, I'm sorry, that's -- yes.

12     Mr. Lukic, I forgot that the explanation by Ms. Bibles was not to defend

13     her own document but that she assisted the Defence.

14             MR. LUKIC:  We upload it or?  So then we have to -- do we have

15     your permission, Your Honours, to extract or delete those two pages?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're even -- well, it's only one page, I

17     think, that --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Or one page.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- should be removed from the English version.  Then

20     you have to upload it again, and then because it's a document which was

21     already admitted, then once that is done, the Chamber will instruct

22     Madam Registrar to replace the new English translation -- to replace the

23     existing English translation of three pages by the new one consisting of

24     two pages.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 24176

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, if it is just a matter of removing one

 2     page, then Madam Registrar is already instructed that once a two-page

 3     document is uploaded which is the same as the existing one, apart from

 4     the third page being removed, you are hereby already instructed to

 5     replace the old one by the new of two pages.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I may be able to assist with respect to

 7     D314 as well.  I have already consulted with the attorneys and there is

 8     no objection to tendering pages, I believe it's, 1, 2 and 110.  So that

 9     can go in.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If we could just have a look in e-court immediately

11     whether there is -- whether there is any -- let me see.  It's D314.

12             Is there any -- there is no translation at all, if I see it well.

13     So there is no objection, Mr. Lukic, but a translation of page 1, page 2

14     and the last page should be prepared.

15             Then I move on with two other matters.  The first one is an

16     instruction with regard to the submission of reports on the accused's

17     health.

18             This is the Chamber's instruction with regard to the submission

19     of medical reports in this case.  Currently, there are three regular

20     medical reporting regimes in place.

21             First, there are the expert medical reports to be filed at least

22     every four months which the Chamber ordered in its decision of the 14th

23     of March 2014.

24             Secondly, there are the weekly reports by the reporting medical

25     officer submitted to the registrar and filed pursuant to the Chamber's

Page 24177

 1     instruction of the 4th of June 2013.  This instruction can be found on

 2     transcript pages 12016 and 12017.

 3             Thirdly, there are the special medical reports that the Registry

 4     submits to the Chamber when the accused raises health concerns while in

 5     court or elsewhere in the ICTY main building.  This was first raised in

 6     court on the 29th of August 2012 and the standing order for these reports

 7     was put on the record in the Chamber's decision on the Defence motion

 8     seeking adjustment of modalities for trial of the 13th of March 2013.

 9             To these three reporting regimes, the Chamber now adds a fourth

10     one.  In the event the accused is ill and does not waive his right to be

11     present in court, the Chamber receives the form titled, "Absence From

12     Court Due to Illness," which is completed by the accused and United

13     Nations Detention Unit personnel.  However, the Chamber further needs

14     medical information supporting the position that the accused is too ill

15     to attend court in order to make its decisions for an effective trial

16     management to the benefit of the parties and the Registry.

17             Therefore, the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry that the

18     "absence from court" form should be accompanied or followed by a medical

19     report from the medical officer or the reporting medical officer.  This

20     report should describe the accused's current state of health and, if

21     possible, an estimate of how long the accused will be too ill to attend

22     court.  The report should be filed as soon as possible on the first day

23     of absence with a courtesy copy to be provided as soon as it is

24     available.

25             And this concludes the Chamber's instruction.

Page 24178

 1             The last item for today is the oral decision on the admission of

 2     P6565 and P6566 MFIed.

 3             The Chamber has examined the submissions by the parties regarding

 4     the admissibility of two documents bearing Rule 65 ter numbers 10691 and

 5     28476, which were marked for identification as P6565 and P6566 on the 4th

 6     of June during the testimony of the witness Zdravko Cvoro.

 7             The Defence objects to the admission into evidence of P6565 and

 8     P6566 on the grounds that they lack sufficient indicia of authenticity.

 9     More specifically, it submits that the documents bear no signature or

10     stamp and that the Defence is unable to definitively ascertain their

11     origin.  This can be found at transcript pages 22150 and 22152.

12             In response, the Prosecution submitted that P6565 was collected

13     from the RS intelligence agency, OBS, on the 27th of November 2002 and

14     was admitted as Exhibit P744 in the Krajisnik case.  For P6566, it

15     submits the document was seized from the headquarters of the BH Ministry

16     of Defence in June of 1995 and that its contents are corroborated by

17     witness RM802.

18             This can be found at transcript pages 22150 to 22151, 22027 to

19     22128, 22 -- if I -- yes, I apparently misread.  I repeat the whole of

20     the source on the transcripts.  I start at the beginning again.  22150 to

21     22151, 22127 to 22128, 22154 to 22156, and at 22248.

22             Document P6565 is an intelligence report dated the 6th of March

23     1992 from the BH State Security Service in Sarajevo regarding events that

24     took place in Sarajevo between the 1st and the 4th of March 1992.  It

25     includes information that, amongst others, groups of Serbs in Pale

Page 24179

 1     received sabotage training at the JNA barracks in Kalinovik and that a

 2     large number of Serbs in Pale received weapons from a JNA reserve

 3     officer.

 4             Document 6566 is a handwritten intelligence report submitted to

 5     the, and I quote, "Chief of Security," and filed by the BH Ministry of

 6     Defence on the 1st of May 1992.  It describes events in Sarajevo between

 7     September 1991 and March 1992, and includes information on military

 8     training given at the Viktor Bubanj barracks to SDS units composed of

 9     Serbs from Pale, Foca, Sokolac, Zenica, and Celinac, who, after their

10     training, were with allowed to keep the equipment they had been issued.

11             The Chamber finds that both documents are relevant to the charges

12     listed in the Sarajevo and municipalities components of the indictment

13     and turns to its determination on their probative value.

14             It notes that both documents do not bear a stamp or signature.

15     When Zdravko Cvoro was confronted with these documents, he claimed that

16     he had no knowledge of their contents and submitted that, by law, they

17     should bear a registration number, which they do not.  This is at

18     transcript pages 22226 to 22229.

19             Given his role as president of Pale's municipal Executive Board,

20     the Chamber was unable to understand from the witness's testimony how he

21     came to know what BH state intelligence reports should look like.  It

22     notes the reports contained detailed information on inter alia the

23     activities of high-level politicians, military officials, SDB officials

24     and SJB officials serving in the Republika Srpska, BH and Serbia.

25             The Chamber therefore considers it unlikely that an official from

Page 24180

 1     the municipality of Pale would be copied on them, also considering the

 2     witness's testimony that the SDS party operated from Pale where it had,

 3     "Absolute power."  This is at transcript page 22133.

 4             Moreover, document P6565 explicitly provides that it is only to

 5     be distributed to the BH president of the Presidency, the assembly

 6     chairman, the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Ministers, and the

 7     president of the Presidency Council for the Preservation of

 8     Constitutional Order.

 9             The Chamber notes the Prosecution's submissions that the

10     documents were seized or collected from official organs of the Republika

11     Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the contents of P6566 are

12     corroborated by Witness RM802.  It notes that they do not contain

13     information going to the acts and conduct of the accused.

14             The Chamber considers that, other than indicating that the

15     documents bear no stamp or signature, the Defence has not sufficiently

16     shown why the documents are unreliable.  The Chamber notes that the

17     contents of the documents are contested.  Where Prosecution witnesses,

18     including Witness RM802 testified they occurred, Defence witness Zdravko

19     Cvoro testified they did not occur.  This, however, does not provide a

20     sufficient basis to assume that the documents are therefore unreliable.

21             Furthermore, in the absence of specific submissions by the

22     Defence contesting the manner in which the documents were obtained or why

23     their contents are inherently unreliable, the Chamber accepts the

24     Prosecution's submission that they were obtained from the relevant organs

25     in question and considers that they have sufficient probative value for

Page 24181

 1     the purpose of their admission into evidence.

 2             For these reasons, the Chamber admits P6565 and P6566 into

 3     evidence and this concludes the Chamber's decision on the admission of

 4     documents P6565 and P6566.

 5             Are there any other matters the parties would wish to raise?

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Not at this time, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you're also remaining seated and

 8     remaining silent.  Then we adjourn for the day and, Mr. Lukic, tomorrow

 9     your witness will be available?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 17th of July,

12     at 9.30 in the morning, in this same Courtroom I.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.22 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of July,

15                           2014, at 9.30 a.m.