Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24272

 1                           Friday, 18 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 8     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted into the

11     courtroom, the Chamber takes this opportunity to inform the parties that

12     it will deliver guidance before the summer recess on how the Chamber

13     expects both of the parties to use court time more efficiently and

14     effectively going forward.

15             Ms. MacGregor, it will be you who will cross-examine the witness?

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes.  Good morning, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

23     make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make that declaration.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 24273

 1                           WITNESS:  ZORAN NIKOLIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Nikolic.

 4             Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Stojanovic will examine you.  Mr. Stojanovic -

 5     and you find him to your left - is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   I should like to ask you to tell us for the record, very slowly,

10     your first name and your last name.

11        A.   Zoran Nikolic.

12        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, did you at a certain point in time give a statement

13     to the Defence of General Mladic in written form?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

16     have in the e-court document marked 1D01655, that's the 65 ter number.

17             Let me just repeat:  1D01655.  Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you have in front of you on the screen your

19     statement, and I should like to ask you to see whether these are your

20     personal particulars, the name of the father, the ethnicity, the date of

21     birth; are they correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Is your personal signature below these data?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we now turn to the last

Page 24274

 1     page of this document, please.

 2        Q.   Is this signature and the date on this page, are they written in

 3     your hand?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Nikolic, if today I were to ask you the very same

 6     questions that we asked you during the proofing for this trial, would

 7     you, after having made the solemn declaration today in court, repeat the

 8     same answers as the ones that you gave us and that are contained in this

 9     written statement?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender the

12     statement of Witness Zoran Nikolic, which bears the 65 ter number

13     1D01655, into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1655 receives number D581,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your permission,

19     Your Honours, I should like to read a summary of the statement of the

20     Witness Zoran Nikolic.

21             Up to the outbreak of the war, Witness Zoran Nikolic -- up to the

22     outbreak of war in Foca, the witness, Zoran Nikolic, worked in the

23     employment office of the city of Foca.  When the war broke out in Foca

24     and the Crisis Staff was set up, TO units were established, which

25     consisted of three platoons organised upon the territorial principle.  As

Page 24275

 1     the commander of one of the platoons was his brother, Dragan Nikolic, he

 2     joined precisely his unit.

 3             Already on the 8th of April, 1992, an armed conflict broke out

 4     after fire had been opened on Serb territorial units from a modified

 5     thrower.  The fighting lasted all that day, and in the days that

 6     followed, Serbian forces managed to enter the part of the city which is

 7     called Aladza and later also the section of the city Donje Polje, where

 8     the fighting was the fiercest.  In those battles, his brother was killed.

 9             The fighting around the city itself lasted for several days.  As

10     the Muslims started losing on the battle-field, they started to withdraw

11     from the city, and a large number of Muslim civilians left the territory

12     of the town of Foca together with their armed forces.  The reason for

13     their departure was fear because there did not exist any kind of a

14     proclamation order along those lines by the Serb authorities.

15             At that time, there did not exist the VRS in Foca but only

16     Territorial Defence units.  In April and May 1992, there was a number of

17     armed groups in the town of Foca, and one cannot say at all whether there

18     existed a single command over those units.

19             At the time when control was assumed over the city of Foca, as

20     far as he understands, there did not exist either a military or political

21     organ that had managed to put under its control all these armed groups.

22             That is a short summary of the witness -- of this witness.  And

23     with your permission, I should now like to ask him several questions in

24     connection with his statement.

25             Could we now see in the e-court this document that we now have

Page 24276

 1     before us.  Let us take a look at paragraph 2 of his statement.

 2        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, in paragraph 2 of your statement you stated that

 3     during those conflicts you were engaged in the Territorial Defence, and

 4     then you say:

 5             "And later I was engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska from

 6     time to time."

 7             Please tell the Court what does this answer of yours mean, to the

 8     effect that you were engaged there from time to time?

 9        A.   In the beginning of the conflict, I was engaged -- or better to

10     put it, I joined the unit which was commanded by my brother.  And that

11     unit was part of the Territorial Defence.  After a month and a half, or

12     more precisely in mid-June, I believe it was the 18th of June, 1992, the

13     Executive Board of Foca municipality instructed me and assigned me to

14     organise the work of an institution, the employment office in Foca.

15             So my engagement on the Territorial Defence started on the

16     8th of April and ended on the 18th of June.  And later after the setting

17     up of the Army of Republika Srpska, I would be engaged as required for

18     the work obligation, if there were some incidents or some situations

19     which so required, during religious holidays as additional security for

20     the lines or when there were some incidents occurring.

21        Q.   Were you in some concrete units at the positions or did you hold

22     some -- did you perform some functions in the army?

23        A.   I was in the concrete units at the positions.  I did not hold any

24     military office, discharge any military function at all.

25        Q.   In paragraph 6 of your statement, you speak about the

Page 24277

 1     developments on the 8th of April, and you say, if you can see:  In the

 2     morning we received information -- received notification because there

 3     was a connection with the Crisis Staff.

 4             My question is:  How were you so notified, through what means by

 5     the Crisis Staff?

 6        A.   As I said, my brother was the commander of this platoon and he

 7     was the only one who had a Motorola radio connections, a direct

 8     connection to the Crisis Staff.  And it was in this way that we received

 9     specific orders; and namely, my brother received them and then he relayed

10     them on to the soldiers.

11        Q.   At that time on the 8th of April in the morning, where was the

12     Crisis Staff?  Did you have such information?

13        A.   Yes, we did have that information.  And also from earlier, we

14     knew that the Crisis Staff was located in Cerezluk, this is a section of

15     the city.

16        Q.   Were the Muslim forces or political forces in Foca, did they have

17     a Crisis Staff?

18        A.   Yes.  We were actually right opposite the headquarters of the

19     Muslim Crisis Staff, the Crisis Staff of the Muslim organisations of the

20     Territorial Defence.  That is how they called their organisation.

21        Q.   At that moment when the tensions ran high between the

22     ethnicities, did you have any information about any negotiations being

23     conducted between the two Crisis Staffs in order to overcome that

24     situation?

25        A.   On that day, the 8th of April, namely, we were informed -- or,

Page 24278

 1     rather, we were ordered by the Crisis Staff that on no account should we,

 2     without orders from the Crisis Staff, open any fire because in the

 3     building of the municipal assembly, at that moment - namely, from 8.00

 4     and on - representatives of the two Crisis Staffs, the Muslim and the

 5     Serb, one -- were sitting and talking about the current situation

 6     prevailing in town.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we see in

 8     e-court document 1D4511.  1D4511.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, the heading of this document states that it was

10     compiled --

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please scroll down

12     so that we could see the top left corner and the date.  Thank you.

13        Q.   It reads that this is an agreement, and it is indicated it was in

14     Foca on the 8th of April, 1992, and that there are given specific

15     conclusions.  And in brackets it is indicated either "Crisis Staffs" or

16     some other organ next to the actual conclusions.  Can you tell us what

17     this is about, if you know?

18        A.   Yes.  This document is something I saw in the original.  I know

19     what it is about, and this is actually the outcome of the talks conducted

20     between the representatives of the Crisis Staffs on that day, the

21     8th of April, at that time that I just referred to a while ago.

22        Q.   May I draw your attention to item 10 of this agreement which

23     says:

24             [As read] "The removal of all armed people from outside (crisis

25     staffs) and verification by observers."

Page 24279

 1             So I should like to ask you:  Was it the case that already on the

 2     8th of April, 1992, there were armed men in Foca who had come from

 3     elsewhere, from parts outside the municipality of Foca?

 4        A.   Yes.  In Foca, both sides - and I am referring to the Muslims and

 5     the Serbs and their organisations on which they worked - and they both

 6     sought to organise themselves as best as possible.  They all had people

 7     from outside.  This was not a large number, but it is a fact that they

 8     were present there on both sides.

 9        Q.   Were they precisely the people that you referred to in the two

10     last paragraphs of your statement when you said that you don't know under

11     whose control they were or that they were under anybody's control?

12        A.   Yes, but this is a lesser number of people.  After the beginning

13     of the conflict, some five or seven days later, this number of people who

14     had come from other parts increased.  I meant for the most part those

15     people, but more than that I was referring to the groups that arrived

16     during or after the end of the fighting in the city proper.

17        Q.   And where were those armed groups from, if you know?  Or where

18     did they come from to the area of Foca?

19        A.   Serbia, Montenegro, Sandzak, possibly from some other areas too.

20     But mostly from Serbia and Montenegro.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

23     tender the document 65 ter 1D4511.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to see the bottom of the page.

Page 24280

 1             Witness, you said that you saw the original of this document.

 2     Who signed this document?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I saw the original of this

 4     document.  There were several signatories.  As for this that you've shown

 5     me, I recognise only one signature, and others can only be discerned

 6     slightly.  There were several signatories.  Do I need to add anything?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to know the names of the people you

 8     recall.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do recall, because it was an

10     interesting event, noteworthy.  On that day in the building of the

11     municipality, in the office of the president of the municipal assembly,

12     the following persons were present:  Radojica Mladjenovic, president of

13     the Executive Board; Taib Lojo, president of the municipal assembly;

14     whereas Edhem Varajic [phoen], who was appointed chief of the military

15     department after the democratic changes.  Then as far as I can remember,

16     there was Vojo Bodiroga, he was a member of the Executive Board; then

17     Predrag Lakic, also a member of the Executive Board.  And Aganovic was

18     there, too, but I cannot recall his first name.  He was a member of the

19     Executive Board as well.  All of them were --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honours.  The testimony so far

22     about this document and about this witness's knowledge about the

23     agreement goes beyond the scope of the statement.  And in the agreement

24     that we'd put to the Defence, because this witness was appearing in

25     violation of the agreement we made, was that his testimony on direct

Page 24281

 1     would be narrowly within the scope of the direct.  I'm not objecting at

 2     this point, but the Prosecution hasn't had an opportunity to prepare for

 3     this topic of cross-examination -- for cross-examination.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             Mr. Stojanovic, any reason why you went beyond the scope of the

 6     statement?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just put a

 8     question that corresponds to the statement, paragraph 10 of the

 9     statement.  I did not ask about the signatures and that is not something

10     I asked the witness during proofing.  This is an answer to a question put

11     by His Honour Judge Fluegge.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  My objection actually is -- is before the

13     question put by Judge Fluegge.  It has to do --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me be -- Mr. Stojanovic, where is there any

15     reference to such an agreement in the statement?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] There is no mention of the

17     agreement, Your Honour.  Paramilitary forces, conditionally speaking,

18     armed groups that weren't under anybody's control.  So I found a link in

19     paragraph 10 of this agreement that supports part of his statement.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  There is nothing about an agreement in paragraph 10,

21     is there?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, no.  This is the agreement.

23     And in paragraph 10 there is a reference to armed persons who should be

24     disarmed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there is no objection at this moment.  But to

Page 24282

 1     say that this is clearly set out in the statement, there is no way of

 2     that, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think we first need a number.

 6             Madam Registrar.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, Mr. Stojanovic, I just want --

 8     this document doesn't tell us who are the parties to the agreement, and

 9     this is an agreement that this Court can't take cognizance of when we

10     don't know who are the parties to the agreement.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no problem

12     with asking this.  We did notify the Prosecution on time that we would be

13     using this document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Does --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The document will speak for itself on that point.

16     It's not the point.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4511 receives number D582,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And --

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, is there an objection against

24     admission?

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  No.

Page 24283

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then D582 is admitted into evidence, Mr. Stojanovic,

 2     but the objection was about notice.  And there is certainly some merit in

 3     it.  You may proceed.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to have an answer from the witness.

 5     I asked him who signed the statement.

 6             Then you, Mr. Witness, you answered who was present.  You listed

 7     quite a lot of people present in the office when this agreement was

 8     signed.  Did all these people sign this, the agreement?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's exactly what I said a moment

10     ago.  I mentioned all of the persons who were present.  And I do

11     apologise that I did not mentioned Josip Milincic.  All of those --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not my question.  Did all these people

13     sign the agreement?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way to have the original sooner or

17     later available?  I mean the original not cut off at the bottom but --

18     Mr. Stojanovic?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, according to the

20     information I have, this is in the Prosecution collection; whereas we

21     managed to find this document while we were preparing through EDS.  So

22     this was disclosed to us by the Prosecution.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I'm informed by Ms. Stewart that

24     this is the best copy that the Prosecution has.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we have to do with it for the time

Page 24284

 1     being.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Actually, Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to ask that

 5     we go back to the witness's statement, D581, if I remember correctly, if

 6     I noted it correctly.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm waiting for it to see -- this document.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, there is not a word not only about an agreement

 9     but there is also not a word about this witness being present at the

10     meeting where this agreement, apparently, was signed.  So therefore,

11     there is really a notice problem because the Prosecution might have

12     prepared for to search for such a meeting and who were present,

13     et cetera, and with this statement they're unable to do so.

14             Please proceed for the time being, but it's not how it should be

15     done.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

17     paragraph 7 of this statement.

18        Q.   Sir, Mr. Nikolic, this is what you say in paragraph 7.  At one

19     point in time fire was opened at a police vehicle and that was after a

20     modified launcher had been used against you.  Could you please tell the

21     Trial Chamber, first, what kind of motivated launcher this, the one that

22     fired at you?

23        A.   Well, I think that you did not formulate this properly.  This is

24     not what I had stated.  In my statement I said, and this is what I wrote,

25     that fire was opened before the reaction of the modified launcher.  On

Page 24285

 1     our right-hand side there were territorials.  Our platoon consisted of

 2     chosen people irrespective of their territory.  This was an elite unit, a

 3     select unit.  I cannot say exactly now which side opened fire first.  It

 4     seemed to me that it was at the same time.  And the reason for opening

 5     fire was the arrival of the police vehicle and its movement towards the

 6     building of Focatrans where the Crisis Staff of the Muslims was.

 7             We had strict orders not to open fire.  When arriving in that

 8     territory, my brother took over command over these territorials as well,

 9     so he immediately ordered a cessation of all fire.  This was communicated

10     and fire from our side stopped because we strictly abided by the order;

11     namely, that without any order of the Crisis Staff we should not open

12     fire.  That is what this is all about.

13             So could you please repeat the second part of your question to me

14     now?

15        Q.   What kind of modified launcher was this, the one that fired at

16     you?

17        A.   At the time I did not know what that was.  I could not recognise

18     the weapon they used to fire at us, but later on I found out -- actually,

19     I saw this device, this modified launcher.  This was actually a launcher,

20     a rocket launcher adapted for the use of shells.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, Mr. Stojanovic.

22             Witness, you said that you did not state what was read to you.

23     You said in your statement you said that fire was opened before the

24     reaction of the modified launcher.  The statement, however, reads that

25     only after the modified launcher was used against you that fire was

Page 24286

 1     opened.  So that's something different from what your testimony is now.

 2             If there is any translation issue, Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber

 3     would like to be informed about it.

 4             But I just put it to you that what you now say is not what we

 5     read in your statement.  Is the statement wrong?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm afraid that what I'm --

 7     what I said in the statement is being misinterpreted.  So where I was,

 8     where I was involved in the platoon that was commanded by my brother, and

 9     he also took over command over another unit, the order was not to open

10     fire.  However, what happened was --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I stop you there.  I'll read the relevant part

12     of the statement.

13             "Fire was opened only after a modified launcher was used against

14     us, and we responded by opening fire," et cetera.

15             Now you said here in court that you may have been misunderstood

16     and you said fire was opened before the reaction of the modified

17     launcher.  Now, that's not the same.  Therefore, instead of further

18     explaining, what is wrong:  What we read in the statement or what you

19     said in court?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, you read out the other

21     part or, rather, the second sentence.  Please allow me to read the

22     sentence that precedes the sentence that you read out.

23             "Fire was opened at a police vehicle, and I later learned that

24     Abid Ramovic was killed at that time and that another police officer was

25     wounded in that vehicle.  Fire was opened only after that modified

Page 24287

 1     launcher was used against us when we responded by opening fire on the

 2     Focatrans buildings and the facilities immediately above Focatrans from

 3     which fire was opened."

 4             So what I'm trying to say is that irrespective of the order, I

 5     think that the unit next to us reacted and the Muslims fired as well at

 6     the police vehicle.  So after a while, on orders from my brother, who was

 7     the commander of that unit, fire was stopped and the situation calmed

 8     down.  Immediately after that, half an hour later, this modified launcher

 9     started firing.  Then my brother established contact with the

10     Crisis Staff.  I was right there next to him.  He explained the

11     situation, that we are under heavy fire, and then he received orders to

12     respond.  So that is what happened.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Stojanovic, next time take care that the

14     statement reflects what the witness intends to say because what he

15     actually now is telling us, that fire was opened, that later a modified

16     launcher was used, and that after that again fire started.  Which is not

17     what the statement says.  It says "only after."  But we now understand

18     the testimony better, and we still do not understand why the statement is

19     phrased as it was.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Tell me, what was your impression about the weaponry and the

23     power of the weaponry of the opposing side at that point in time?

24        A.   Could you be more precise in putting your question?  Do you mean

25     at that moment, what my impression was then, at that moment that I spoke

Page 24288

 1     of?

 2        Q.   At the moment of the fighting between the 8th and of the

 3     12th of April?

 4        A.   Believe me, at first I did not expect or assume that they could

 5     fire at us with such weaponry and such force.  As for the actual area

 6     where we were, this kind of force was used and at -- and we could not

 7     have believed what was happening.  It was terrifying.  On the other hand,

 8     our unit and the units of the Territorial Defence were armed with light

 9     weapons, rough rifles, M48 for the most part.  The only automatic weapon,

10     an automatic rifle, was the one that my brother had.  And also there were

11     two semiautomatic rifles that were in the hands of some soldiers.  All

12     the others had M48 rifles and used them.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

15     1D2704.

16        Q.   Sir, this is a document of the Supreme Command staff of the

17     security administration of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, bearing

18     the date 17th of July, 1993.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we now please see the

20     next page.

21        Q.   The title of this report of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina is:

22     "Some intelligence on the causes of the lack of organisation in the

23     defence of Foca against the conquest by the aggressor and the persecution

24     and plight of the majority Muslim population."

25             Please look at the last paragraph in B/C/S.

Page 24289

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is, Your Honours, the

 2     beginning of the second paragraph in the English version.

 3        Q.   Where it is stated in this report after the democratic elections

 4     for -- Lojo Taib was an electrical engineer, a respectable citizen, was

 5     appointed vice-president -- was appointed president of the Foca SO.

 6     However, from the very beginning, Senad Sahinpasic, aka Saja, and

 7     Halid Cengic, who are related, having the greatest political influence in

 8     the SDA thanks to the powerful support of influential relatives and

 9     friends from Sarajevo, especially Muhamed Cengic, the then deputy prime

10     minister -- minister.

11             Is this information consistent with what you know about the

12     people who were in the government, in the municipality of Foca at that

13     time?

14        A.   Believe me, I don't know where from this man who submitted this

15     report or this memo drew his information.  It is as if he had asked me.

16     It is everything that I knew about the organising of the Muslims.  The

17     reference to these names and their activities in the area of the

18     municipality of Foca is consistent with what I know, in other words.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we just move to the next

20     page in B/C/S and in the English version it is this page.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you meanwhile inform us, Mr. Stojanovic,

22     where we find anything about your present line of questioning in the

23     statement of the witness?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, this part of

25     my question referred to just the political struggle --

Page 24290

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- and the situation with the

 3     weapons in Foca.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's exactly my problem, that it is about

 5     something different from what is found in the witness's statement.  And

 6     then to explain that it is different is not a proper answer to my

 7     observation.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Please look at the last sentence in the first paragraph here

11     where it is stated they included Aziz Sljivo and a wide circle of men

12     loyal to them in the arms smuggling so that the Muslim people in this

13     area, for fear of the ever-increasing Chetnik threat, are giving the last

14     penny to those whom they have elected to protect their interests, to

15     supply them with weapons.

16             So they paid the rifles that Sahinpasic and Cengic are selling

17     them, 1.200 to 1.500 German marks.  According to some intelligence,

18     5.200 rifles came to Foca via the SDA which Sahinpasic and Cengic sold.

19     My question is:  Did you know about this or anything similar about the

20     arming of the Muslim population in Foca municipality at any point in

21     time?

22        A.   Yes.  I did have such information from a number of sources --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Mr. President, you can probably guess my

25     objection is still about notice.  Specifically right now, he's being

Page 24291

 1     asked about his knowledge about the arming of the Muslims.  This is not

 2     something that was covered in depth.  And I did have notice of this

 3     document, but would not have been able to foresee this as a line of

 4     questioning.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, where do we find it in the statement

 6     and where do we find it in the Rule 65 ter summary?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it does not

 8     contain this part.  It does not arise from the statement given to the

 9     witness, except for what he said today in relation to arming and the

10     amount of equipment at the -- the adversary side had.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, would you please put questions to

12     the witness which are in direct relation with his statement and are

13     covered by the 65 ter summary.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have something to say.

15             Mr. Stojanovic, I've got also another problem of a different

16     kind.  You tell the witness a story and then telling him how arms were

17     acquired and paid for with German marks, and then having told him that

18     story, you ask him if he knows anything about it.  Why do you lead and

19     not ask questions?  Why do you tell him a story before you ask him a

20     question?  That's leading.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I showed him the

22     document.  I did not ask him that.  That is what the Army of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina says.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, this is what you read.  Do you

25     want me to read what you said to this witness?

Page 24292

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But look at what you said before you put your

 3     question.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is a quotation from a

 5     document of the Army of Bosnia.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The proper way would be, Mr. Stojanovic, to ask the

 7     witness whether he has any knowledge about arming, then ask him what he

 8     knows about it, and if there is any reason then to compare that with any

 9     document, you put that document to him.  But you do not start reading the

10     document saying, "So they paid the rifles," et cetera, according to it

11     challenges this and this and this, and then to ask the witness:  "My

12     question is:  Did you know about this or anything similar ..."  You've

13     given the whole story before you ask him whether he has any knowledge

14     about.  It should be the other way around.

15             And I invited you to put questions to the witness which are --

16     can be directly linked to his statement and are covered by the

17     Rule 65 ter summary, and please limit yourself to that.

18             Apart from that your time is over already by far because you

19     claimed half an hour.  You started at 20 minutes to 10.00.  It's now

20     close to 10.30.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will be concluding,

22     Your Honours, I just have another question.  One more.

23        Q.   In your statement, Mr. Nikolic, you say that a large number of

24     Muslims left Foca that night.  Will you tell Their Honours where did the

25     Muslim population and armed members of the Muslim people head for when

Page 24293

 1     leaving Foca?

 2        A.   Several days later, after several days of fighting in the city,

 3     when Bosniak - i.e., Muslim forces - at that time realised that they were

 4     losing on the battle-field, first their political and military

 5     leaderships, in the night of the 12th, as far as I know, they were the

 6     first to leave.  Then the military forces became panic stricken --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you there.  The question was where

 8     did they go.  Not why did they go, not who went.  Where did they go as

 9     far as you know?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that most of the Muslims,

11     armed persons and inhabitants, left in the direction of Ustikolina and

12     further on --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter did not hear the last word.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last word you said?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gorazde.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That was your last question, Mr. Stojanovic?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, it was, Your Honours.  And

18     I have no further questions for this witness.

19        Q.   Witness, thank you for your answers.

20        A.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think it would be an appropriate time to take

22     a break first.

23             Could you give us a further estimate, Ms. MacGregor, on how much

24     time you would need?

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  Last night we informed the parties that we

Page 24294

 1     expected an hour and a half and I hope to go under that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take the break first.  Could the witness

 5     be escorted out of the courtroom.

 6             We would like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 7             We resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the Chamber wonders what will be the

12     consequences.  Are there any changes to your witness list?

13             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Because we had Mr. Simovic as the next one, and

15     then -- but he will appear, will he not appear today?

16             MR. LUKIC:  It is not our plan to bring Mr. Simovic today.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

18             MR. LUKIC:  I just spoke with Mr. Ivetic.  The -- we are trying

19     to accommodate Witness and Victim Unit.  At the beginning we had

20     witnesses here for a long time, so we were criticised heavily by this

21     unit who is really helping agree time to everybody.  And we organised our

22     witnesses coming here based on the estimate received from the

23     Prosecution.  As we saw lately there were some cuts in cross-examination

24     and that created a shortage, we can say, of witnesses on our part.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now do we have another witness then for later

Page 24295

 1     today?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Simovic is the only one who -- whom -- who was

 3     spoken to, but --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  -- I'm not sure that he is ready.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When did he arrive?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  He arrived --

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- the day before yesterday, but Mr. Ivetic was in

10     the courtroom yesterday, so --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then you have to organise it in such a way

12     that -- but let's first continue with this witness.  But please

13     reconsider whether or not Mr. Simovic would --

14             MR. LUKIC:  But I know we will change the way we bring witnesses

15     here.  We will have to add extra day, so I think --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine, but --

17             MR. LUKIC:  -- we have to reason that to Victim and Witness Unit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

19             MR. LUKIC:  We hope that they will accept that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- for today, please consider whether or not - and

21     we would urge you - to call Mr. Simovic as the next witness to start

22     today.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready -- no, apologies.  Ms. MacGregor,

24     are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

Page 24296

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Nikolic, you will now be cross-examined by

 2     Ms. MacGregor.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. MacGregor is counsel

 3     for the Prosecution.

 4             Please proceed.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Nikolic.  This is the first time that you

 7     testified at this Tribunal; is that correct?

 8        A.   Good morning.  Yes, it is correct.  This is my first time.

 9        Q.   And this is also the first case for which you've given a written

10     statement at this Tribunal; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Stojanovic showed you your statement earlier on the screen,

13     and you agreed that you signed it on June 8th, 2014.  Can you just tell

14     us where it was that you signed your statement?

15        A.   In Foca.

16        Q.   Other than members of the Mladic Defence team, were there any

17     other people present?

18        A.   No.  There were other witnesses waiting outside, but in the

19     actual room in which I signed the statement, there were only the Defence

20     team members present.

21        Q.   In the room outside, did you spend some time waiting along with

22     the other witnesses?

23        A.   No.  I was late.  Actually, I did not arrive at the scheduled

24     time because I had other obligations so that in the meantime, during the

25     break between my previous obligation, when I came, almost everybody else

Page 24297

 1     had already finished, and they were all sitting in this room and talking

 2     among themselves.  I don't know what about.

 3        Q.   Do you know the names of any of those witnesses that you saw?

 4        A.   Well, for instance, Petkovic.  We call him Miso.  I'm not quite

 5     sure about his first name.  We call him Miso.  That's Petkovic.  Then I

 6     saw, I believe, Trifkovic.  I don't know his first name.  I didn't pay

 7     much attention.  I was in a hurry.  I was not really interested, in fact.

 8        Q.   Did you see a witness with the last name Simovic?

 9        A.   I cannot recall having noticed him.  I know who he is.  I don't

10     think he was present.  I'm not sure.  I cannot give you a precise answer.

11        Q.   I'd like to move on to the subject matter of your statement.  I'm

12     going to take us to April 1992.  At that point you were living in Foca

13     municipality you've testified and you said in your statement.  Before the

14     war, were you politically active in Foca?

15        A.   Please, could you be more precise?  In what sense do you mean

16     "politically active"?  I am politically active in accordance with my own

17     needs.  If you mean specifically whether I was a member of a political

18     party, the answer is yes.  I was a member of the League of Communists.

19        Q.   Were you a member of any sort of political assembly or political

20     group?

21        A.   No.  If I leave aside the League of Communists, I was not a

22     member of any assembly.  I was a member of that party.

23        Q.   And during the war, did your political activity change in its

24     nature in any way other than what you've just described?

25        A.   During the war?  No.  But after the war, yes.

Page 24298

 1        Q.   Briefly, can you describe how it changed after the war?  What you

 2     went on to do that was different than your political activity before the

 3     war.

 4        A.   After the war, or more specifically in 1996, in the second half

 5     of 1996, I agreed to be involved in a political party that is called the

 6     Serb Radical Party.  I was nominated by the leadership of that party to

 7     be commissioner, to try to establish a committee of the

 8     Serb Radical Party in Foca, which I managed to do.

 9        Q.   Thank you for that explanation.  Now, in April 1992, there was a

10     call for mobilisation.  Now, were you yourself mobilised?

11        A.   I did not receive any call-up papers for mobilisation.  It is of

12     my own free will that I joined the unit that was commanded by my brother.

13        Q.   According to your statement, that unit was commanded by a man

14     with or a person with the last name Mandic.  What is the first name of

15     that person?

16        A.   As far as I know, in my statement here I did not mention the name

17     of any Mandic.  If you can, please show me the statement and let me take

18     a look.  But as far as I can remember ...

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can ask the court officer to please show

20     Exhibit D581, and we'll focus on paragraph number 3.

21        Q.   Sir, I'm going to bring that up for you.  While I'm bringing it

22     up, I'm going to direct you to the third paragraph and to the first

23     two sentences.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  For the record, I'll read it out loud.

25        Q.   But you can also look at it in front of you.

Page 24299

 1             "At the beginning of the conflict in Foca I was not a member of

 2     any formation.  After the Crisis Staff was established in Foca, a unit

 3     commanded by Mandic was established."

 4             Do you see the sentences I'm referring to?

 5        A.   Madam Prosecutor, in the English Prosecutor it says "Mandic."  In

 6     the Serbian statement, the one that I signed, that is not what is

 7     written.  I never mentioned the surname Mandic.  I don't know how come

 8     you have such a document in the English language, but look at the Serbian

 9     version and you will see that there is no such name.

10        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, I see what you're saying to the extent that I can

11     read it, and I will follow-up with the Defence who provided this

12     translation.  Thank you.

13             Moving on to the unit that your brother commanded.  Do you know

14     who he was responsible for reporting to?

15        A.   As far as I know and at the moments when I was present, he

16     directly reported to the Crisis Staff.  I remember that the names were

17     coded or, rather, I remember that Soko was the name via radio

18     communication.  They did not actually use real names, so conversations

19     were coded.  Therefore, I don't know.  If you're asking me about the

20     first and last name of a person who communicated with my brother, I

21     cannot tell you exactly.

22        Q.   Although you weren't mobilised, you stated you were an escort of

23     your brother's unit.  Can you describe what that role was, what you were

24     responsible for doing?

25        A.   I did not have specific assignments.  In the statement I said

Page 24300

 1     that I left the town of Foca on the 7th in the evening, after 7.00 p.m.,

 2     to be specific, when my brother closed the cafe that he owned, and I left

 3     Foca together with him.  I did not have any specific assignments at that

 4     moment.  I was present throughout.  I was with him throughout.

 5        Q.   Did you have a weapon?

 6        A.   At that moment, I did not have a weapon.  However, my brother's

 7     brother-in-law had a hunting carbine, 7.62, with optical sights, and he

 8     gave it to me so that I would have a weapon.

 9        Q.   When did you receive that?

10        A.   At the moment when we arrived at the position where we were

11     supposed to be deployed, in a house in the area where the unit was

12     deployed.  In this house we found Mitar Filipovic, who is the brother of

13     my brother's wife.  He gave me that weapon because he didn't have any

14     others.

15        Q.   According to your statement, there was a list of members of your

16     brother's unit.  Now, you -- you saw that list?

17        A.   My brother said to me that there is a list, and I asked how, in

18     which way, they selected these persons.  I talked to him about that, and

19     he said something to me that I found interesting; namely that in that

20     unit, it could not happen that two brothers would be members of that

21     single unit.  So this was an unwritten rule.  That is how I know that

22     this unit, as he said to me, had about 120 members.

23        Q.   Now, during Mr. Stojanovic's questions, you also described the

24     unit as "select" and "elite."  What did you mean by that?  What was your

25     understanding of the role of that unit and why they were selected?

Page 24301

 1        A.   I know why they were selected.  Since I did not take part in the

 2     selection of these people, I don't know how this was done exactly.  I

 3     just told you about some of the details that I know of.  I know, though,

 4     that this unit consisted of healthy, young, physically and mentally

 5     capable men.  So if there were to be some situations that could crop up

 6     in the town of Foca at the time, they could act in terms of preventing

 7     incidents from happening.  In practice, this was an intervention unit.

 8        Q.   The rule you just talked about where two brothers wouldn't be in

 9     the same unit, to your knowledge is that a rule that was in place

10     throughout the Territorial Defence or was that a -- was that the only

11     time you heard of that rule as it applied to this specific unit?

12        A.   I spoke specifically about the unit that was commanded by my

13     brother.  So that rule was not applied to other units that were within

14     the Territorial Defence, as far as I knew and heard.  I was only speaking

15     about this particular unit.

16        Q.   The other members of your unit, did they -- or of this unit, did

17     they have weapons?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you describe what kind of weapons?

20        A.   Most of these soldiers had M48 rifles, and that's what they used.

21     A few of them had semiautomatic rifles.  And my brother had an automatic

22     rifle with an extended rifle-butt, a wooden rifle-butt.

23        Q.   And do you know where your brother's unit received their arms

24     from?

25        A.   My brother and a few other men were involved in the organisation

Page 24302

 1     in terms of supplying weapons.  I don't know specifically because, in a

 2     way, this was a secret.  I don't have any information.  He never told me

 3     how and in which way they obtained some of their weapons.

 4        Q.   Were you aware of another intervention unit commanded by

 5     Gojko Jankovic?

 6        A.   At that moment, in the beginning of the conflict, I did not know

 7     that there was a unit that was commanded by Gojko Jankovic.  Later on, I

 8     found out that in the territory of the local commune and the local

 9     communes that gravitate towards his local commune, a group was

10     established and Gojko Jankovic commanded that formation or, rather, that

11     group.

12        Q.   You just referred to the territory of the local commune and other

13     local communes that gravitated towards them.  Can you -- can you just

14     explain to me what you're meaning when you talk about different communes?

15        A.   Well, you see, the municipality of Foca has several

16     organisational sections or, rather, local communes.  I don't know the

17     exact number but it was between 20 and 30, closer to 30 than 20.  This

18     was a large territory.  I think that in terms of the area it encompassed

19     it was the second largest in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Specifically, the local

20     commune of Gojko Jankovic was Brod, and then there was Mjesaja.  I cannot

21     say exactly what the territorial organisation was, what all the local

22     communes were.  But all of that gravitated towards his local commune.

23     And that goes for the people from that territory as well.  So all of

24     these people were involved -- I mean, they came from the neighbourhood,

25     possibly there could have been some people from other territories but

Page 24303

 1     this would have been an individual case only.

 2        Q.   And you personally knew Gojko Jankovic; is that correct?

 3        A.   Mr. Jankovic, I knew him for ten years before the war.  I am

 4     quite sure it's even more than that, but I can say with certainty that it

 5     was ten years before the war.

 6        Q.   When did you learn about his -- that he had established a unit --

 7     or that a unit was established under him?

 8        A.   I cannot remember exactly when this happened, but I know at one

 9     moment -- or, rather, when I was present during a specific situation, I

10     saw Mr. Jankovic and his unit in a concrete situation when an incident

11     occurred.  Or rather, when the armed forces of the Muslims attacked the

12     defence line of the front and when they took our positions.  Then, in

13     addition to other units that were involved in order to have these

14     territories recaptured, Gojko Jankovic's unit took part as well.  That's

15     when I saw the structure and number of persons involved in that unit.

16        Q.   When did this occur?

17        A.   On Saint Nicholas Day 1992.  Specifically, the position where I

18     saw him is that of the repeater.

19        Q.   And what were you doing there?

20        A.   On that occasion, Major Pejovic, who was a cousin of my wife, so

21     I knew him personally, he was the commander of the units of the

22     Army of Republika Srpska in the area of Foca; or, rather, he stood in for

23     Marko Kovac who was absent at the time.  He asked me to be at the command

24     together with him because of a special situation that he happened to be

25     in.

Page 24304

 1             At that time, after that situation was resolved and after

 2     additional forces - i.e., reserve forces were mobilised, the reserve that

 3     existed in Foca - I participated in an action to recapture our positions;

 4     i.e., occupy the positions that had been seized by the Muslim Bosniak

 5     forces.

 6        Q.   I want to just break this down a bit.  You referred to a special

 7     situation that he -- that Major Pejovic was in and that because of that,

 8     he asked you to be there present at the command.  So starting first, what

 9     was the special situation that you are describing?

10        A.   Mr. Pejovic called me because he thought that his personal

11     security was threatened at that particular point.

12        Q.   And then why would he call you specifically to help with that

13     situation?

14        A.   He's a human being and a human being always relies on friends

15     when the situations are difficult.  He considered me a friend, I consider

16     him a friend, and we were actually kin.  And I felt secure when I was in

17     his presence, and he also.  And I felt that he would feel secure when I

18     was present during that incident.

19        Q.   To be sure that I'm understanding you, was he asking you to

20     provide physical security for him in the way that a body-guard or

21     something like that would?  That's how I'm understanding what you're

22     testifying about, but if I'm incorrect please let me know.

23        A.   In a sense, you are right.  One of the reasons was that

24     practically I should provide physical security for him.  But I think that

25     at that time he needed someone also in the psychological sense because he

Page 24305

 1     had found himself in a very difficult and stressful situation.

 2        Q.   Returning to Gojko Jankovic's unit.  Did that unit report to

 3     Major Pejovic or Major Kovac -- excuse me, Mr. Kovac when he was back?

 4        A.   As far as I know, at that time Gojko Jankovic's unit was part of

 5     the system.  It was a part of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Reporting to Colonel Kovac; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And I apologise for my ignorance, but my understanding is that

 9     Saint Nicholas Day is around May 25th; is that correct?

10        A.   No.  It is the 19th of December.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I was way off.  And that would have been

12     Saint Nicholas Day 1992, so December 1992 - thank you - is that right?  I

13     see you nodding your head.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Did you see Gojko Jankovic in Foca from the start of the conflict

16     throughout the conflict?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   The first time you saw him was in December 1992 after the

19     beginning of the conflict?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I please have -- excuse me, 65 ter 30985.

22        Q.   While this is coming up, I'll tell you about this document.  It's

23     from 1993.  It's from the Foca Tactical Group to Vojislav Seselj.  And if

24     we look at the heading on the left side of the page, you can see

25     Gojko Jankovic is named.  Do you see there where it says: "Proposal that

Page 24306

 1     Gojko Jankovic be proclaimed Vojvoda" or "military leader."  Do you see

 2     that part?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And if we look, I'm going to look at the first -- well, the

 5     second paragraph under the word "explanation."  I'm looking at the end of

 6     that paragraph, and I'll read from there.

 7             "Jankovic himself formed a special detachment with which he

 8     obtained excellent results in the liberation of Foca, Cajnice, and other

 9     areas, impressing on his soldiers and his fellow commanders by example

10     how to fight against the Ustashas for our Serbian people."

11             Is this description of Jankovic's activities during the war

12     consistent with what you know about him?

13        A.   I cannot comment on this.  I never had occasion to make a profile

14     or to make any kind of structure associated with the person of

15     Gojko Jankovic; therefore I would not venture, pursuant to this or on the

16     basis of what is available, to give any comment or any opinion on that.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, the Prosecution moves to tender

18     this into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30985 receives number P6683,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:

24        Q.   Were you aware that -- of another unit commanded by

25     Dragoljub Kunarac that was in Foca during 1992?

Page 24307

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did you personally know Kunarac?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you also at this time know a man named Pero Elez?

 5        A.   Yes.  Not for a certain period.  Actually, I knew the late

 6     Pero Elez since I was nine years old.

 7        Q.   And he commanded a unit as well in Foca; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you know a man name Predrag Trivun?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And did he also command a unit in Foca?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In 1992 did you see Kunarac?

14        A.   I saw Mr. Kunarac only on one occasion, just like Mr. Jankovic

15     whom I also had occasion to see on just one occasion but a different one.

16        Q.   What was the occasion when you saw Mr. Kunarac?

17        A.   I think that it was in 1993 when an attack had been organised

18     against Gorazde.  I was on the right bank of the Drina river.  And at

19     that time he was assigned to bring us to a specific destination, to a

20     specific spot, within our work obligation.  He was practically our guide,

21     and that spot where he took us was contaminated by infantry mines, and he

22     did that successfully.

23        Q.   I have a few questions about the -- specifically about the night

24     and the next day of the take-over.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you do that, let me ask one question for

Page 24308

 1     clarification.

 2             Mr. Nikolic, you said -- you mentioned two persons, Mr. Kunarac

 3     and Mr. Trivun, and you said they were commanders of units.  To which

 4     army did these units belong?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the outset of the conflict, they

 6     were members of the Territorial Defence.  And afterwards, I believe in

 7     the beginning of July, they became part of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Now, you mentioned that on the evening of April 8th -- or on

11     April 8th, when you were positioned across from the Focatrans building,

12     that a man named Abid Ramovic was killed.  This is in your statement at

13     paragraph 6.  Was he a Muslim fighter?  If you can just answer out loud

14     for the record.

15        A.   At the time when he was killed, he was a policeman.  He was not a

16     fighter because he simply didn't have the time for that.  So he was

17     killed on the 8th of April in his vehicle -- in a vehicle.

18        Q.   And he was Muslim?

19        A.   This was a mixed patrol.  There was one Muslim and one Serb --

20     there were one Muslim and one Serb in the vehicle.  The Muslim,

21     Abid Ramovic, was killed and the Serb was wounded.

22        Q.   Moving on to the next day, by this point your unit had progressed

23     into the Aladza neighbourhood.  You mentioned in your statement that on

24     that day Rodoljub Trifkovic was killed.  Was he a member your unit?

25        A.   I do not agree with what you said that was on the next day that

Page 24309

 1     we had progressed into the Aladza neighbourhood, whereas it is correct

 2     that Rodoljub Trifkovic was a member of that unit.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpreter said:  "I

 4     do not agree with what you said that it was on the next day."

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I'm referring to the first

 6     paragraph -- excuse me, the sentence of paragraph 9, but I don't think

 7     it's essential so I'm going to move on from which day it was.

 8        Q.   Now after your brother was killed, did you immediately leave the

 9     front lines to return to Prevrac?

10        A.   It is a bit difficult for me to actually evoke that particular

11     moment.  At the moment my brother was killed, it was my task to protect

12     him and to cover with fire the positions from which the Bosniaks, the

13     Muslims, were opening fire.  I apologise for the term I'm using,

14     "Bosniaks," but at that time they were Muslims at any rate.  So he

15     crossed the street.  This is an alley, a very short and narrow street.

16     And he entered a garden or an area or he went through the gate, better to

17     put it, and I never saw him after that.  His cousin was with him, namely,

18     his wife's brother.  Some ten minutes later from that -- Mitar emerged

19     from that yard and he informed me that my brother was killed.  At that

20     moment I was totally numb, I had no feelings, but all the strength was

21     drained from me and I just collapsed and I needed several minutes to come

22     to.

23             Then together with Mitar, I entered the yard and in this yard

24     there was an old Muslim house, and we reached a small window from which I

25     could see the body of my brother.  At that moment I didn't know whether

Page 24310

 1     he was alive or dead, so I asked a person or persons -- or the persons

 2     who had killed my brother to let me approach my brother to see whether he

 3     was alive or dead and to help him, if possible, but there was no reply.

 4     A young man, who was a member of this unit and his surname is also

 5     Filipovic, he lost it, and he wanted to get inside the room.  But when he

 6     entered the room, a bullet was heard and he was wounded so that he

 7     couldn't actually help me implement my intention.  He couldn't do it

 8     either.

 9             So afraid that I might make a similar try, a similar move,

10     Mitar Filipovic threw a tear gas bomb inside.  After that, I tried to

11     enter the room, but the concentration of the gas was so high that it

12     actually stopped me in my tracks and prevented me from physically moving

13     altogether.  My friends and fellow combatants took me away from the

14     scene, not far away from it, and I don't know how they managed to pull

15     out my brother's body.

16             A vehicle came, pulled him out -- or actually, transferred him to

17     the field hospital which was 3 kilometres away, specifically in Velecevo,

18     and my fellow combatants -- or one man, Krnojelac, Dragan, actually took

19     me under my arm and took me to a spot where they put me in a vehicle and

20     they drove me to the village of Prevrac, where my wife and children were.

21     At that time we organised for my parents to be transported, and on the

22     following day, because we were unable to bury my brother at the city

23     cemetery, we buried him in the village of Prevrac.

24        Q.   And how long did you stay in the village --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  One second --

Page 24311

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam MacGregor, I see that the witness gave about

 3     a page of the answer, and in all that page he doesn't say a word about

 4     the question you put to him.  Your question was:

 5             "After your brother was killed, did you immediately leave for

 6     Prevrac?"

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  I understand the end of his answer to be an

 8     answer to that question.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Come again?  You understand?

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  That the end of his answer was the answer to my

11     question, that he was driven in a vehicle immediately after that to the

12     village of Prevrac.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I thought your question was whether this witness

14     went to Prevrac.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  I understand his testimony at lines -- it's

17     page 39, from 7 until 14, specifically 9 and 10:

18             "... Krnojelac, Dragan, took me under my arm and took me to a

19     spot ... they drove me to a village ..."

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  If that was the answer, then that would

21     have been the answer.  Not the rest of the page that we heard.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek verification of one thing.  You talked

23     about your fellow combatants and you said:  "One man, Colonel," and could

24     you repeat his family name.  His first name being Dragan.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Krnojelac.

Page 24312

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's, I think what I heard before, where the

 2     transcript gives a name different from --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's wrong again --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You read to him Jehovac and where I understand the

 5     witness to say "Krnojelac."  Let's proceed.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But even now, it is -- could you please spell that

 9     name --

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Witness?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] K-r-n-o-j-e-l-a-c, Krnojelac.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   How long did you remain in the village of Prevrac?

17        A.   You see, it was the day of the funeral -- or, rather, the day

18     before the funeral.  That was the 11th.  So then the following day when

19     the funeral took place, and then according to our Orthodox custom there

20     is a certain protocol, if I can put it that way, when, after how many

21     days, a grave is visited and candles are lit.  I cannot recall exactly.

22     I wasn't counting the days, but I think that it was seven days, namely,

23     that I stayed in Prevrac for seven days.

24        Q.   And after --

25        A.   And I also went to --

Page 24313

 1        Q.   I apologise for interrupting.  As Judge Moloto has pointed out,

 2     we're unfortunately short on time, so if -- if you can just tailor your

 3     answer specifically to the questions I'm asking.  Although, I know this

 4     is a difficult topic.

 5             Where did you go after the time that you spent in Prevrac

 6     surrounding your brother's funeral?  Where did you go next?

 7        A.   My parents lived 10 kilometres away from Foca in a weekend

 8     cottage.  They had an organised household.  They had livestock.  And I

 9     took care of my wife and children, but I also took care of my parents.  I

10     went to see them all the time and --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is that where you went next?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that I did not

13     understand your question.  You mean the first time I went --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was where did you go after the time

15     that you spent in Prevrac surrounding your brother's funeral.  Where did

16     you go next?  And I asked whether it was to this weekend cottage that you

17     went.  If not, please tell us where you went.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After that period, I think that it

19     is about seven days, I took care of my family.  I managed to get them out

20     just before the war broke out, a few days, to stay with my brother's

21     father-in-law, Todorovic, and my family were there and -- well,

22     conditionally speaking, maybe it's a harsh word, after the liberation of

23     Foca I returned them to the apartment.  Whereas my parents lived in the

24     village of Kuta, 10 kilometres away from Foca.  Then I went to see them

25     regularly because they were in great stress, their psychological

Page 24314

 1     condition was very grave.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that these were difficult times, but

 3     do I understand that from Prevrac, after this period of seven days, you

 4     went to your parents or to that cottage?  Because that was the question.

 5     And I do understand that it reminds you of unpleasant days, but -- to say

 6     the least.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall try to be as precise as

 8     possible.  The fact is that my family, that is to say, my wife and two

 9     children then, were in the house of Todor Filipovic.  Seven days later, I

10     transferred my family and together with them I entered my apartment.

11     Now, from that apartment I regularly went to see my parents who were

12     10 kilometres away from Foca.  I really cannot be anymore precise than

13     this, with the best of wishes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor will put her next question to you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I just ask, where was your apartment?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apartment was in the local

17     commune of Gornje Polje I.  The building was 125.  It was in the street

18     of --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:

21        Q.   Around June 18th you were ordered by the Municipal Executive

22     Committee to start working at the employment office; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is this the same employment office that you worked at before the

25     war?

Page 24315

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What was your role there?

 3        A.   I was the supervisor.  I was the head of the bureau.

 4        Q.   And did you work --

 5        A.   I do apologise.  I do apologise.  My role was to organise the

 6     work of the bureau and to provide services to unemployed persons.

 7     Because the order of the civilian authorities was to normalise life in

 8     Foca as much as possible.  That meant having all public institutions

 9     function and all institutions that were founded by the municipality of

10     Foca.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the context is not something Ms. MacGregor

12     might be interested in at this moment, and you explained your role.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Did you work at the employment offices as a full-time worker?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And from June 18th, 1992, when did you -- till when did you

18     remain in that role?

19        A.   Could you please be more precise on that?  Or repeat the

20     question, if you will.

21        Q.   How long did you stay in that job?

22        A.   I stayed in that job until the present day.

23        Q.   You continue to be employed there?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I see that it's break time and this

Page 24316

 1     would be a good time.  I have only a few subjects after the break to

 2     cover with the witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break first.

 4             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You may follow

 5     the usher.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at -- Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I'm not sure if I understood you

 9     correctly.  Is your ruling that we bring the next witness even if he's

10     not fully prepared?

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you first further explain.  We had

13     an early finish yesterday.  Why -- well, let's say, six, seven,

14     eight hours would not be enough to prepare the witness for appearing as a

15     witness today, where part of this morning was available as well.  So all

16     together working time anything between seven and ten hours.

17             MR. LUKIC:  What I can tell you is that I know my colleague

18     Ivetic met with the witness yesterday afternoon, and he is or he was with

19     the witness this morning as well.  I'm -- I don't know.  Even if he

20     finished his preparations.  I'm only asking you is it your ruling that we

21     bring the witness no matter what?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll further discuss it, having heard your

23     explanation now.  So therefore within the next 20 minutes we'll tell

24     you -- after these 20 minutes, we'll tell you whether the Chamber expects

25     you to call your next witness.  Or whatever other matters we would

Page 24317

 1     decide.

 2             We'll take the break.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you get information from Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll then hear that after the break and we'll

 8     consider the present situation.

 9             We resume at 10 minutes past -- no, let's say 15 minutes past

10     midday.  That's a little bit more than 20 minutes.

11                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.20 p.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I will give you an opportunity to further

14     explain your position.  However, I would like already to briefly mention

15     that the 92 ter statement is relatively short and covers quite some

16     matters which were dealt with in -- with the witnesses we've heard the

17     past days, that we already received the corrections to the statement

18     which suggests to us that you do that once you have briefed the witness

19     and once you have gone through this very short statement.  And we also

20     noticed that at least considerable time has been available yesterday

21     afternoon and this morning, and therefore the Chamber thinks that you

22     should have very good reasons not to call the witness.  But we give you

23     an opportunity to explain your position.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if you allow us, since Mr. Ivetic was

25     with the witness and he's now with us, so I think it's the best way to

Page 24318

 1     allow Mr. Ivetic to explain what happened.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  The clarifications to

 5     the statement were sent at approximately 10.38 this morning because at

 6     10.30 I received word that we should end the proofing with the witness,

 7     that he should be returned to the hotel to rest, if, indeed, he had to

 8     testify today.  Per the VWS instructions, the witness should have

 9     adequate time to rest between proofing and testimony.

10             The proofing was not done at the time that the clarifications

11     were sent.  We were scheduled for proofing from 9.00 to 12.00 this

12     morning.

13             Yesterday, I had a brief opportunity to meet with the witness,

14     who although it is a short statement, this is a witness who has never

15     testified before, either in proceedings at any domestic court nor at the

16     Tribunal, and thus, of course, had to be dealt with in much more detail

17     to explain to him the procedure of the court and to allay any fears he

18     might have and to make him feel comfortable with giving testimony.

19             I can tell you that yesterday we met beginning at 4.00 and we had

20     to cut the proofing short after the witness indicated he was tired and he

21     wished to go back to the hotel.  We have instructions from VWS to always

22     keep in mind the witness and not to overtax them, and that is what we

23     were relying upon yesterday.

24             That is, I believe, what I can present to you as additional

25     information.  We -- I -- I believe that there were additional matters

Page 24319

 1     that I wanted to raise with him in proofing that I did not raise, but I

 2     leave it upon Your Honours to make a decision as to whether -- as to how

 3     we will proceed, and we will abide by any decision you make.

 4             Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, how long did you meet with the witness

 6     yesterday?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  From 4.00 until just before 6.00.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the witness had had the whole of that

 9     day -- he was not -- there was no interference in his programme by the

10     Defence team, so that means that until 4.00 there were no specific

11     matters he should look after?

12             MR. IVETIC:  Unless he had matters with VWS.  VWS sometimes has a

13     schedule of their own that I'm not privy to, but as Your Honours know, I

14     was in court until 2.15 yesterday.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just briefly consult with my

16     colleagues.  And you said and this morning you resumed your conversations

17     with the witness at what time, Mr. Ivetic?

18             MR. IVETIC:  I met him at the hotel at 9.00.  At approximately

19     9.15, 9.20 we arrived back at my apartment office to work, and then we

20     started working until approximately 10.30, when word came to me that he

21     might be required to testify this morning, and then I sent the proofing

22     statement which was just rather briefly typed in an e-mail because I

23     wanted to comply with all the instructions that I'd been given.

24             And I point out that the changes in reductions in the cross time

25     by the Prosecution, basically, prior to those, this witness was scheduled

Page 24320

 1     to begin on Monday, which is why the scheduling was done the way that it

 2     was done to have -- we considered we'd have sufficient time, even for a

 3     new witness, to proof him during that time-period that we thought we were

 4     going to have.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it from your brief note that at least you

 6     went to and through paragraph 12 of the witness statement?

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And this statement is 14 pages.  Let me just look --

10             MR. IVETIC:  14 paragraphs, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  14 paragraphs, yes.  Let me have a look.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Where earlier said that we -- that we had an early

14     finish yesterday, I was mistaken because it was the day before yesterday,

15     so I apologise for that.

16             The Chamber has considered the situation and is of the opinion

17     that the witness should have been ready.  Even if you give sufficient

18     time for a witness to rest, that doesn't mean that you start at 4.00

19     where you could have started at 2.30 or 3.00.

20             Apart from that, the statement is extremely short.  Apart from

21     that, paragraphs 13 and 14, well, contain not that much that you would

22     need to consider whether the witness should in any way reconsider that

23     because it's mainly what he doesn't know.  I mean, that wouldn't change

24     that much during proofing, I take it, or at least it should not take that

25     much time.

Page 24321

 1             Nevertheless, the Chamber is not forcing at this moment the

 2     Defence to bring this witness this morning, but adds to it a very strong

 3     warning that this should not happen again, and that next time we think we

 4     would be fully justified to force you under similar circumstances, but we

 5     refrain from doing it now.  And the Defence should always be prepared to

 6     organise its preparations in such a way that there would be a reserve

 7     witness ready, which is, as was shown over the many, many years in this

 8     Tribunal, is well possible within the time limits of arrival and

 9     departure of a witness which the Victims and Witness Section accepts as

10     normal.  Let that be clear.

11             Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to thank Your Honours for understanding

13     our position, and I can assure you that we will adjust our schedule of

14     arriving future witnesses based on such situations, so we'll have to have

15     more witnesses ready.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and whether you should change your schedule,

17     Mr. Lukic, if that brings you into conflict with VWS, then it could also

18     be that you would use your time better once the witness has arrived.  So

19     I leave that in your hands, whether the one is the reasonable solution or

20     whether the other is.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have to add, I've just been told by

22     our support staff, it was something I should have known, the time that

23     the witnesses are permitted to stay or anticipated to stay per VWS has

24     been shortened due to the number of witnesses that stayed for prolonged

25     periods at the beginning of the case when the -- their testimony lasted

Page 24322

 1     longer than was the estimates.  So we do have some limitations in terms

 2     of how long a witness can arrive prior to their scheduled testimony and

 3     how long they can stay.  We also had instances where witnesses were

 4     staying longer than originally anticipated by VWS were sent back to their

 5     country of origin because of the financial restraints of keeping them

 6     here longer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, it seems that you do not understand what

 8     I said earlier.  I was not discussing the policy.  I wondered why you had

 9     not started yesterday at 2.30, why you had you not started at 3.00.  Why

10     two hours a day is too much of a burden for a witness and that he is

11     tired instead of saying, Well, another half an hour or we should have

12     started half an hour earlier.  And that knowing that you have no other

13     witnesses, that you should have completed the job, urging the witness how

14     important it was, and saying that instead of two hours, that you could

15     have asked him to spend three hours on a day which leaves, on a normal

16     working day, five hours of additional rest.  That is our primary concern,

17     not your conversations with the Victims and Witness Section.

18             Let's proceed and let the present witness be escorted into the

19     courtroom.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, while the usher is getting the

21     witness, I know that I'll be asking to look at Exhibit D582, if that

22     saves some time.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Nikolic, the break took a little bit longer than

25     expected.  We had to deal with a procedural matter.  Ms. MacGregor will

Page 24323

 1     now continue her cross-examination.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:

 3        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, you'll see on the screen in front of you is the

 4     document that Mr. Stojanovic asked you about earlier.  Now, you testified

 5     that you saw the original of this document.  How did you -- in what

 6     circumstance did you see the original of this document?

 7        A.   Yes.  It is fact that I have seen the original of this document.

 8     This was - I'm not sure about the exact date, but approximately a month

 9     after the conflicts broke out - in the office of Josip Milicevic

10     [Realtime transcript read in error "Filipovic"], the president of the

11     municipality of Foca, at his invitation, and he invited me over for

12     coffee so that we could discuss the situation and the actual beginning of

13     the war.  And I took advantage of the situation or the opportunity to

14     talk about the situation which he was in at that time.  We were in

15     practically the same situation but I was -- I participated from the very

16     beginning of the armed conflict, and he was with other people and he was

17     actually involved in a meeting, and the outcome of that meeting was this

18     agreement.

19             On the basis of our talk, he showed me this document on that

20     occasion.

21        Q.   You describe being in the same situation as Mr. Milincic [sic],

22     what do you mean -- or excuse me, Filipovic.  Although I'm not sure if

23     the transcript recorded the name correctly.  Can you repeat the name of

24     who you were meeting with?

25        A.   Josip Milicevic, the president of Foca municipality.

Page 24324

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You described being in the same situation as him, the

 2     same situation that he was being in at the time.  What do you -- what you

 3     are referring to?

 4        A.   When I said that we were in different positions, I clarified a

 5     while ago where I was on the 8th of April, and he was in the municipal

 6     building at the same time when the conflict began.  I am referring to the

 7     morning of the 8th of April, 1992.  Mr. Milicevic, together with the

 8     other persons whom I already mentioned, members of the

 9     Executive Committee, was conducting talks and negotiations on the

10     situation in Foca.  The upshot, the outcome of their talks is this

11     document which is in front of me, this agreement, this two-page

12     agreement.

13        Q.   So to be closure, that's a meeting that occurred on August --

14     excuse me, April 8th, that you were not present at?

15        A.   Yes.  I never said that I was present to the talks and the

16     signing of this agreement.  I said that I saw this document about a month

17     later, when, on one occasion when talking to the president of Foca

18     municipality, we discussed that event because I had found out from my

19     brother via radio that the meeting was ongoing and that for that reason

20     we were not to open fire without any specific orders.  And that was

21     interesting for me, and as he saw my position and my view of matters

22     interesting on that day, the 8th of April, 1992.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I just ask for clarification,

24     Madam Prosecutor.

25             I'm trying to follow your story, sir, Mr. Nikolic, earlier you

Page 24325

 1     were asked by Judge Fluegge who signed the document and instead you told

 2     us of people who were present at the time.  Now you're saying you didn't

 3     attend this meeting.  How did you know the people who were present if you

 4     were not in the meeting?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The signatures are affixed to the

 6     original document of all these people that I mentioned, and also

 7     Josip Milicevic also mentioned all those who had been present in our

 8     talk.  And all who had been present also signed the agreement.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:

10        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, what is the relationship between you and the

11     president of Foca municipality that he would want to ask you to have a

12     coffee with him?  Was that a close relationship that you had?

13        A.   We were on exceptionally friendly terms, and for a long time

14     prior to the war we were exceptionally good friends.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  I no longer need this document.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before this disappears from the screen, I would

18     like to ask a question in relation to paragraph 16 of this document.  I

19     read there:

20             "The return of captured prison inmates to the Foca KP Dom."

21             Mr. Nikolic, have you any idea what that could mean?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what it means.  In that

23     period, I do not know how, and under what circumstances, and at whose

24     orders, but it was a fact that all the prisoners who were serving their

25     regular sentences, so not prisoners of war, but all prisoners who

Page 24326

 1     happened to be at that time in the KP Dom were released, whether Serbs or

 2     Muslims or of any other ethnicity.  Somebody had released them all.  This

 3     caused fear and sowed panic among the population, irrespective of their

 4     ethnicity.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your statement, paragraph 10, last sentence,

 6     you say:

 7             "That is when they withdrew from the KP Dom, having previously

 8     released all the inmates, both Muslim and Serb."

 9             When did this release happen?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask for this statement

11     to be shown me on the screen for me to be able to answer?

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, of course.  It is D581.  It must be page 3,

13     paragraph 10.  It's now on the screen in B/C/S.  Please have a look at

14     the last sentence of paragraph 10.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So talking about this last part of

16     the sentence, which says "and before that, all prisoners, both Muslims

17     and Serbs, who had been released from the prison," that refers precisely

18     to what I was saying before.  The regular prisoners, practically all

19     prisoners who had been sentenced by final judgement in the prewar state

20     were there, and that is whom I mean.  Although, I do not know --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you -- I'm asking you when they were

22     released.  When did that happen?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know the exact date, but I

24     believe that it was a day before the conflict began.  I believe it was a

25     day or two or, rather, day before, but I do not have exact information.

Page 24327

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In paragraph 10, you are describing Muslims

 2     leaving Foca town out of fear.  Was that before the conflict, the war

 3     broke out?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not have interpretation.

 5     Nobody managed to translate your words for me.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'll repeat.  In paragraph 10, you are describing

 7     Muslims leaving Foca town out of fear.  Was that before the conflict, the

 8     war broke out?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need to explain to you the

10     atmosphere and the situation --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- which prevailed.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, please.  I'm only focusing on the time.  When

14     did the Muslim people leave?  When were these people from KP Dom

15     released?  I'm just asking you for a time-frame.  When did all that

16     happen?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The majority of the Muslims, armed

18     people and inhabitants, left in the night between the 12th -- on the

19     night of the 12th, actually.  And the prisoners, the convicts, better to

20     put it, had been released before that.  Not during the conflict.  Or as a

21     consequence of -- not as people who were imprisoned as a consequence of

22     the war conflict.  When I said this in my statement, I was referring to

23     people who were serving regular prison sentences.  Although --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand that.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I have information that the

Page 24328

 1     Muslim forces --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I fully understand that.  I just wanted to know

 3     the sequence.  Now I understand what you were saying by "having

 4     previously released all the inmates."  I understood at first it was on

 5     the first day, but now you are explaining that happened quite a while

 6     before.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And I have still a few questions on this matter.

 8             What's the source of your knowledge of this, of the prisoners

 9     being released?  Were you there when it happened?  How did you learn

10     about it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I left the initial position

12     and when we got to the village of Prevrac, where my family was, the

13     entire population was panic stricken because they had received

14     information that armed convicts --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about that.  I want to know what is

16     the source of your information about the release of the prisoners.  Did

17     you learn that when it happened?  That's my first question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at the time when it happened,

19     but rather a few days --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Next question then is:  When exactly was it

21     that you learned about it?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was the 9th, the

23     night between the 9th and the 10th of April.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier started an answer, "rather a few days,"

25     and I expected you to say a few days after it had happened.  Could you

Page 24329

 1     now tell us then in more detail when exactly those convicts were

 2     released?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot be more precise than I've

 4     already been, because I did not have any timely information; that is to

 5     say, I have provided the source as to when and how I found out.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how did you know that both Serb convicts and

 7     Muslim convicts were released?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment I did not know, but

 9     when it says that they were all released, then I imagine it's one and the

10     other and the third, if you will.  All ethnicities.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, one second, please.  You say "when it says that

14     they all were released," I read that as your statement, but from your

15     answer I do understand that you do not really know whether both Muslim

16     and Serb prisoners were released because you say "I imagine," which means

17     not knowledge but rather a conclusion.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.  However, if you allow me,

19     I received the exact information from the warden of the KP Dom who, at

20     the time when I took part in government, held the office of the president

21     of the Executive Board.  I spoke to him about that in great detail.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radojica Tesovic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, who was the warden of the KP Dom when these

25     prisoners were released?

Page 24330

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radojica Tesovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And he was of what ethnicity?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serb.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And were you ever able to verify whether Muslim

 5     convicts had been released in reality?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you do that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By talking to Mr. Tesovic who

 9     explained the situation to me, I mean the one that prevailed at that

10     moment, because as I've already said, he was the warden of the KP Dom.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

12             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what he told you, but whether it happened or

14     not you were unable to verify?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  There was no need for me

16     to verify.  That was not a subject that I was interested in.  I just

17     meant in terms of my personal needs.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now did he also explain why he released all

19     those convicts which then caused such panic among the population?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know Mr. Tesovic.  I have known

21     him for many years.  I knew him before the war as well.  He was a highly

22     moral and responsible individual --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I'm --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His assessment was --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking about the morality of Mr. Tesovic.

Page 24331

 1     I'm asking you whether he explained why he had released all those

 2     convicts.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wanted to

 4     say.  I had just prefaced it with something else.  His personal

 5     assessment and his responsibility was such, and his conclusion was that

 6     he could not provide for the security and safety of those prisoners, and

 7     that is why he released all of these persons.  According to my

 8     information, according to what I learned from him -- as a matter of fact,

 9     even part of the prisoners who had committed some serious crimes, he

10     tried to organise their transfer to some other prisons.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand you well that it was

12     Mr. Tesovic, his decision, to release those prisoners, being the warden?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this conversation

14     and the information that he provided to me, I am speaking to you.  That

15     is the information that I am conveying to you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did Mr. Tesovic remain to be the warden at --

17     on from the moment that these convicts were released, did he remain to be

18     the warden of the KP Dom?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  He had certain problems

20     because of these steps he had taken.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I take you back to your statement and go to the

22     second part of paragraph 10.  You said:

23             "I learned later that many Muslim civilians had left Foca with

24     their armed forces in the course of the night."

25             And I continue:

Page 24332

 1             "They did it out of fear and no proclamation or order was issued

 2     to that effect by the Serbian military or civilian authorities."

 3             Where you say "they did it out of fear," did you refer to the

 4     Muslim civilians leaving Foca with their armed forces?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I continue to read, where it says:

 7             "That is when they withdrew from the KP Dom, having previously

 8     released all the inmates, both Muslim and Serb."

 9             Who are "they" in this sentence?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not saying that they were

11     released.  I mean, that they released the Muslims.  Well, before that --

12     I mean, this is a statement; namely, that all prisoners - Muslims and

13     Serbs, that is -- please, please --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I stop you there.  I read the beginning of this

15     sentence:

16             "That is when they withdrew from the KP Dom ..."

17             Who withdrew from the KP Dom?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslim armed forces under the

19     control of the Muslim Crisis Staff.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So where it reads:  "That is when they," that is,

21     the Muslim forces, "withdrew from the KP Dom, having previously released

22     all the inmates, both Muslims and Serb," that suggests - the language

23     seems to be clear - that the Muslims had released them and you just told

24     us that it was the Serb warden that had released them.  Have you -- do

25     you have an explanation for this, what seems to be a contradiction?

Page 24333

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right when you say that this

 2     is not worded properly.  There were two parties to this war, to this

 3     conflict, and there are no joint prisoners.  Therefore, as for the

 4     meaning of this sentence, this is what I'm stating and this is my

 5     interpretation.  It is badly worded.  It would have been better had they

 6     said "convicts" before that, because I never mentioned that before and I

 7     thought that that was an important thing.  And it was important that --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  You have reviewed this

 9     statement and you've signed it.  Did you at that moment see that the

10     wording was not what you intended to say?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, I know that it is hard

12     to translate the statement from Serbian into English, French, et cetera,

13     but for me there is no dilemma.  There is nothing unclear here.  I read

14     this in Serbian and I'm speaking Serbian.  I believe that this

15     formulation is puzzling for you but it's not for me.  I'm adding this

16     explanation in terms of the situation involved.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say it's wrongly translated, we'll have that

18     verified.  We'll look at it again and we'll ask our interpreters, and

19     some of the members of the Defence team are bilingual, they can read both

20     the one and the other, and if you say it's a translation issue, then

21     we'll verify that.

22             It brings me to another question, which is the following:  You

23     were interviewed on the 8th of March, if I see correctly.  Was your

24     statement put on paper on that same day?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That statement and conversation, I

Page 24334

 1     mean the one that was drafted on the occasion of the first conversation.

 2     I didn't want to sign that statement at first because it was a note.  I

 3     mean, the Defence insisted that I sign this.  I didn't want to until I

 4     saw the complete statement.  And it is only then that I signed it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say a first statement was made on the day

 6     when you were interviewed, although you didn't sign it.  Is that

 7     correctly understood?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  Correct.  During the

 9     first interview I did not sign a statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Why were you hesitant or reluctant to sign that if

11     it reflected what you had said?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From a technical point of view, it

13     had not been completed.  They did not have the technical conditions for

14     writing the proper statement, like the one that was compiled during the

15     second meeting.  You notice that there were no technical errors.  There

16     were different mistakes, though, in terms of names.  So I insisted that

17     the text be clear, that it be e-mailed to me, and then I signed that

18     statement.  That is why I insisted.

19             I think that this really matters.  And this may have seemed a bit

20     confusing during my testimony.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You received it by e-mail when?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a few days -- a few days

23     now -- oh, please, within a few days, I cannot say exactly, I got the

24     e-mail.  I have that noted down, of course, when I received the e-mail

25     and when I returned it.  I had to scan the statement, then I had to sign

Page 24335

 1     the statement, and then return the statement by e-mail.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have the last --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what you did?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- page.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what you did?  You signed it and you

 7     returned it.  How did you return it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] E-mail.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I think you also told us that you signed it in

10     Foca during a meeting.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, no.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  During the meeting I did

16     not sign it.  I mean, during the interview.  A statement was drafted with

17     quite a few mistakes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You received the statement through e-mail.  You

19     signed it.  You returned it.  Were there any mistakes in that statement

20     that you returned?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there weren't any, as far

22     as I could notice.  I didn't find any mistakes, except for that poor

23     wording that you objected to a moment ago.  But I did not react because

24     it was understandable to me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Why did you then have to go, if I understand you

Page 24336

 1     well, on the 8th of June to, if I understand you well, again sign the

 2     statement?  You told us that you arrived late, you did see some others,

 3     they had a conversation but you did not know what about.  You told us all

 4     that.  Was that -- was that on the 8th of June?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I met on two occasions

 6     with a member of the Defence team of Mr. Mladic.  The first meeting was

 7     in a catering establishment a month or two before.  They then insisted

 8     that I should come for a talk and that was the first talk.  It was then

 9     that between the two -- between two obligations that I had, I took

10     advantage of the opportunity to meet with Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Dundjer,

11     and I do not remember who else was there.  At that time present were some

12     people, and I did not pay any attention to them.  I didn't even have the

13     time for that.  I mentioned some names that I could recall.  It was only

14     after a month or two, I cannot be precise --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you there.  The statement says that you

16     were interviewed on the 8th of March and that you signed on the

17     8th of June.  That makes two occasions.  Are you telling us that on the

18     8th of March, that you had a conversation and that Mr. Stojanovic was

19     present?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so, yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what do you do you mean by "believe"?  Was he

22     there or wasn't he there?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is the date, the

24     one that you are mentioning.  I know that there were two interviews.  The

25     first interview -- at the first interview were present Mr. Stojanovic and

Page 24337

 1     Mr. Dundjer.  At the second interview, only Mr. Dundjer was present and

 2     another person whose name I cannot recall.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And that were the two only occasions when you

 4     met with the Mladic Defence; is that correctly understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you told us that a statement was sent to you by

 7     e-mail, that you signed it, and that you returned it.  You also told us

 8     that a statement was given to you for signature but you said:  I don't

 9     want to sign it because I want to see the complete statement.  Now, I

10     take you back to the two occasions when you met.  That incomplete

11     statement, Mr. Nikolic, was that given to you at the end of the first

12     meeting you had where Mr. Stojanovic was present, or was it at the end of

13     the second meeting you had where you said Mr. Dundjer was there with

14     another person but not Mr. Stojanovic.  Was it at the end of the first or

15     at the end of the second meeting that you refused to sign an incomplete

16     statement?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the first meeting, I gave

18     absolutely no statements, nor were any minutes kept.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So was it then after the second meeting that you

20     were given a -- offered to sign a statement which you were reluctant to

21     do and finally did not do?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.  The statement

23     which was offered to me to sign, first of all, was full of grammatical

24     mistakes and the village names were wrong, for instance, that of the

25     village of Prevrac.  I cannot remember what was in it.  So I insisted on

Page 24338

 1     that.  And they jotted down my suggestions and they edited the statement

 2     in that sense.  But I believe that it was also the result of the fact

 3     that the Defence team was in a hurry.  So in order not to lose time, we

 4     agreed that they would send me the revised statement via e-mail and that

 5     I would sign it and return it to them in the same way, which I did.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you still have those e-mails; that is, the

 7     statement that was sent to you?  And do you have a copy --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And do you also have a copy of the first incomplete

12     statement which you were reluctant to sign and did not sign?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not.  I see no point in

14     keeping something that I didn't sign as a document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now on a further detail.  You said the first

16     meeting, it was not a real interview.  It was only the second time, they

17     were in a hurry.  Was this statement prepared already when you had this

18     second meeting with them, where you said you didn't want to sign because

19     it was an incomplete statement?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The outcome of our talks and of the

21     giving of my statement was the drawing up of the statement which I was

22     supposed to sign, but after I had read it, I noticed that, as I've just

23     said a while ago, what I noticed, and I gave you the reasons why I

24     wouldn't sign it until all those shortcomings were removed.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that second meeting, how long lasted that,

Page 24339

 1     approximately?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At least half an hour.  I cannot be

 3     precise.  I didn't keep time.  But certainly not under half an hour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I can guarantee.  But I cannot

 6     say with precision how long it took.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But was it, to see what maximum time it would

 8     have taken, was it more than one hour?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly.  Possibly.  Sometimes

10     when time is filled with substance, like, for instance, with talk, like

11     today, I'm really surprised to see how much time has already passed.

12     That might happen.  So I cannot say with precision, but it is possible

13     that it lasted over an hour, in fact.  I'm not sure.  And, of course, I

14     wouldn't wish to give you some inaccurate information.  I'm not sure

15     about the duration of our interview, when it began and when it ended.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You said they were in a hurry.  Could you tell us

17     what made you believe that they were in a hurry?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that Mr. Dundjer told me

19     that he had more potential witnesses with whom he was to conduct

20     interviews.  After I had finished, I saw Mr. Radojica Mladjenovic in

21     passing outside.  I think that they had allotted precise slots in terms

22     of time which would be devoted to these potential witnesses.  As far as I

23     recall, my scheduled time was at 9.00, but of course I didn't see any

24     need for me to remember that particular time but I do think I -- it seems

25     to me that it was 9.00.  I was there on time.  How much it lasted, I

Page 24340

 1     cannot say with precision.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you think you saw another witness waiting who

 3     was scheduled for later that day?  Is that ...

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see him before you entered the room where

 6     you had this conversation, or did you see when you left that room?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Namely, afterwards we were

 8     talking.  We had these interviews in a -- in a room on the first floor.

 9     It was on my way out of the building that I came across Mr. Mladjenovic

10     and I assumed that he was --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And you remember that you finished before lunchtime?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was certainly before lunchtime.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what do you consider to be lunchtime?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what regular

15     lunchtime might be, p.m., of course.  Breakfast is in the morning.  Lunch

16     is in the afternoon, and dinner - and I personally do not have dinner as

17     a rule - but it's about 8.00 or 9.00 in the evening.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's dinner time.  But lunchtime is at 12.00

19     for you, at midday, or is it at 1.00 or?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I usually have lunch after

21     working hours.  And my working hours end at half past 3.00 p.m., and I

22     only have my lunch then.  I use a break to have breakfast, if I may

23     finish, and that break is from 10.00 to 10 -- to 10 past 10.00, and I

24     might have a snack later if I'm hungry.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break soon, don't worry.  One issue

Page 24341

 1     remaining for me, which is:  Was the name of Mr. Mandic mentioned at all?

 2     We see that it is in the English version, not in the version in your own

 3     language.  But was the name of Mr. Mandic mentioned at all when you met

 4     with Mr. Dundjer and when you were interviewed?  Did they ask about it or

 5     did you say something about -- even if you had said:  I don't know him

 6     or -- was his name mentioned?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, so many names from the

 8     Defence team, and today also by the Prosecutor, that were mentioned.  I

 9     do not rule out the possibility that the name of Mandic and that of Elez

10     and Kunarac and Jankovic, that all these name were mentioned.  I gave my

11     statement in respect of the facts and circumstances that I was

12     knowledgeable about.  I do not rule out the possibility that in the

13     interview we did mention Mandic.  Concretely, I don't know which Mandic.

14     The Mandics are a large family.  I could not even -- I could not say yes

15     or no.  It is a possibility.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know anyone by the name of Mandic who you

17     considered to be in command of whatever unit?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, this is a large family,

19     that of the Mandics.  I know one Mandic who was the commander of a

20     platoon and later of a company, even a neighbour of mine, whose first

21     name I do not know, he is a neighbour of mine.  And I know quite a few

22     other members of the Mandic family.  I don't know what their roles were

23     or what their positions were during the war, so I cannot say anything

24     about that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Finally, do you have this e-mail in which you were

Page 24342

 1     sent the statement?  Do you -- did you take that with you when you came

 2     to The Hague?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not have it in The Hague, but

 4     I have it in my computer, in my e-mail.  But, of course, I have a

 5     reservation there, I might have deleted it accidentally.  But I'm

 6     convinced that this message is still in my e-mail folder, so if you need

 7     it, I can also send it to you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you're willing to provide it to the

 9     Chamber, that is the e-mail message and the attachment or the statement

10     which was attached and which you signed and returned, that would be

11     appreciated.

12             Ms. MacGregor.

13             Judge Fluegge has one question for you.

14             I know that we have stolen quite a bit of your -- or at least

15     it's not stolen because it's still your time, Ms. MacGregor, but we

16     intervened for a quite long series of questions.  I suggest that you

17     continue after the break but give an opportunity to Judge Fluegge to put

18     one question to the witness now.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Nikolic, the Presiding Judge asked you about

20     the second meeting with the Defence team, which started 9.00 in the

21     morning.  When did that take place?  On which day?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was nothing which would have

23     prompted me to actually remember that date.  I don't know what date it

24     was.  I cannot say.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you because only one date is noted in

Page 24343

 1     your witness statement, date of interview 8 March 2014.  This is only one

 2     interview, but you told us that two interviews were conducted -- or

 3     meetings, at least, with the Defence team.  Was it, the second one, on

 4     the 8th of March or later?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sequence of my encounters of my

 6     meetings is what I've just explained.  The first encounter, the actual

 7     introductions, the meeting, and they're asking me the question whether I

 8     would be a Defence witness for General Mladic, and I accepted them.  At

 9     that meeting we had no further discussions about any other subject,

10     because I was in a hurry.  They just would -- said that they would take

11     my telephone number, call me, and schedule a meeting.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that only one substantial meeting took

13     place, one interview with the content which we can find in the statement.

14     Correct?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the result of this second

16     meeting that you're referring to was the statement which I wouldn't sign,

17     and I explained why.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And again, that first meeting took place where?  In

20     what city?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the witness

22     properly.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in Foca.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And this second meeting was also in Foca?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it was.

Page 24344

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at two minutes

 2     to 2.00, but only after the witness has left the court -- 10 minutes to

 3     2.00 but only after the witness has left the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           --- Recess taken at 1.31 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.51 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, I hardly dare to ask you how much

 8     time you'd still need.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  My estimate is 10 to 15 minutes.  I fully expect

10     to be finished before the end --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- of this session, with time for the Defence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think that the time the Chamber has

14     taken doesn't need much of an explanation.  There is some concern about

15     the taking of statements.

16             Mr. Lukic, if suddenly names appear in the English version which

17     do not appear in the B/C/S version, and if the witness explains to us

18     that what we find in the English version is really not what he intended

19     to say, then we have some concerns about the way in which statements are

20     taken and that explains why the Chamber took more than usual to explore

21     that aspect.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I -- I would suggest that he

23     reads that sentence in B/C/S so it could be translated --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- maybe on the record to -- so at least to correct

Page 24345

 1     it that way.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And was -- is it a CLSS translation?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I have to check that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, do you know whether it's a CLSS

 5     translation?

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That last question remains, for the time being,

 9     without an answer.

10             And, Mr. Lukic, you know that interpreters are not in a way

11     prepared for the interpretation so as to either correct or to change any

12     written translation, which is, of course, prepared in a different way

13     with the access to all kind of dictionaries and rethinking.  So

14     therefore, that's not a very good matter.

15             Ms. MacGregor, please proceed.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, in response to Mr. Stojanovic's questions you

18     testified that from time to time you were engaged with the VRS during the

19     war; for example, religious holidays and some incidents.  Can you give an

20     example of an incident where you would have been engaged by the VRS,

21     other than the incident that you've described on Saint Nicholas Day at

22     the end of 1992?

23        A.   Well, for example, there was this offensive launched by the

24     Muslim forces against the area of the municipality of Trnovo on

25     Mount Treskavica.  Or rather, our positions were on the very slopes of

Page 24346

 1     the mountain of Treskavica.  The work platoon was there, the one that I

 2     belonged to, and it included about 120 soldiers.  And they were busy

 3     there for about three months.  That's an example because there was this

 4     Muslim army offensive.

 5        Q.   A few things there.  When you refer to the work platoon that you

 6     were part of, are you referring to your brother's unit that we have been

 7     talking about today?

 8        A.   No, that was a separate unit as a reserve of people who had the

 9     obligation to work during the war.  That is why it is called work

10     obligation or the unit consisting of persons like myself who were engaged

11     for work assignments during the war.

12        Q.   Is it accurate to say that you were a member of the VRS reserves

13     during the war and that periodically you would be called up to perform

14     work obligation?

15        A.   Well, it can be put that way, too.  So from the moment when in

16     the territory of the municipality of Foca, as an organisational part of

17     the Army of Republika Srpska, the forces of the TO, until then, and other

18     units that I assume were parts of the Territorial Defence, they became

19     part of the Army of Republika Srpska, became an integral part of it.  As

20     far as I can remember, the period involved is either the beginning of

21     July, if I remember correctly, or the very end of June.

22        Q.   From July onward, your role was as a reserve member of that unit

23     that you've just -- of this entity, the VRS, even though it wasn't always

24     the VRS; is that accurate?

25        A.   Well, I think from around the 18th of June or on the basis of the

Page 24347

 1     decision of the president of the Executive Board, I was sent for work

 2     obligation.  From then onwards, all the way up until that incident that

 3     took place on Saint Nicholas Day that I spoke about, I had not been

 4     involved anywhere.  Rather, I had work obligation.  And then, I've

 5     already explain this, when Major Pejovic called, during that incident,

 6     during that case I --

 7        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, please listen to what I'm saying.  You've stated

 8     that you did not have a formal role in the VRS, but you've described now

 9     two situations, at least, where you were near or in fighting

10     circumstances involving VRS forces.  All I'm trying to understand is why,

11     if you were not in any way a formal member of the VRS, you would be

12     called periodically to report to a front line situation and what you did

13     at the front line situation.  That's my question.

14        A.   Madam Prosecutor, all of us, most of us, were an organised,

15     disciplined organisation that knew what it was doing.  I've explained my

16     status when I was part of the Territorial Defence.  Later on I had work

17     obligation.  When military organisation was introduced in respect of the

18     Army of Republika Srpska, then, when necessary, people were engaged in

19     work obligation status, and then I was called up when necessary.  I think

20     I'm saying this clearly.

21        Q.   How would you receive the information that you'd been called up?

22     What was the method that you would be contacted by?

23        A.   Written call-up papers.  They were brought to my place of work by

24     soldiers.  These were mobilisation call-up papers.

25        Q.   Would you wear a uniform when you showed up for duty?

Page 24348

 1        A.   Yes, it's the one that I had available.

 2        Q.   Which was what?

 3        A.   At the very beginning of the war, after those clashes in town,

 4     the unit commanded by my brother gave me a military uniform, camouflage,

 5     as a token of appreciation.  This was a donation.  It came in from I

 6     don't know where, but I always wore that when I took part in armed

 7     conflicts.

 8        Q.   Did it have a VRS insignia?

 9        A.   I personally did not wear VRS insignia.  There was this emblem

10     that I had on the sleeve --

11        Q.   Sorry, please continue.

12        A.   Depending on the situation, we would wear ribbons too, in order

13     to recognise one another in certain situations.  These were specific

14     things so that we could recognise each other.  Most soldiers had these

15     emblems.

16        Q.   Switching subjects.  After June 18th, 1992, did you continue to

17     see members of your late brother's unit in Foca?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   At this point was the unit commanded by a man named

20     Brane Cosovic?

21        A.   That unit was commanded by Brane Cosovic, not Kosovic.  It is a

22     "ch."

23        Q.   Thank you.  But the unit still was referred to as the

24     Dragan Nikolic Unit in honour of your brother; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  The exact name was the anti-sabotage -- well, if this is

Page 24349

 1     going to be correct, what I'm going to utter now, that is what I know,

 2     the Anti-Sabotage Detachment Dragan Nikolic.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We've talked about the Gojko Jankovic unit and the

 4     Kunarac unit.  Did you spend time with those units in Foca during 1992 or

 5     1993?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Are you familiar with a house located in Trnovace that

 8     Gojko Jankovic would sometimes use and go to?

 9        A.   No.  To this day I don't know which house is Mr. Jankovic's.  I

10     know that it is in Trnovace, but as for this exact location and house, I

11     don't know.

12        Q.   This Chamber has heard evidence that a house in Trnovace was used

13     by Mr. Jankovic and Kunarac to imprison and rape Muslim girls after Foca

14     fell to the Serbs.  Do you -- have you ever heard of such a thing?

15        A.   I have heard but I heard of that only after the war, after these

16     people had been put on trial, prosecuted.  But during the war, I never

17     heard any information to that effect.

18        Q.   And from your answer, I take it you're aware that Mr. Kunarac and

19     others were convicted here by this Tribunal in 2001?  I see you're

20     nodding your head.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   In the judgement in that case, the Trial Chamber stated that

23     Mr. Kunarac and his associates frequently used the house in Trnovace for

24     the rape of Muslim girls.  In that same judgement -- and right now I'm

25     referring to a judgement from a Trial Chamber, not this Trial Chamber,

Page 24350

 1     but in the Kunarac case.  In that same judgement at paragraph 269, the

 2     Chamber states Witness FWS-191 -- and that's a pseudonym referring to a

 3     witness in that case.  This witness was also raped by:  "... another

 4     soldier called Zoran Nikolic.  The latter raped her twice, once when

 5     'Zaga' was in the house ..."

 6             And this paragraph refers to the time-period of August or

 7     September 1992.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, for the record I'll refer the

 9     Defence and the Chamber to paragraph 269 of that judgement.

10        Q.   Were you aware that the judgement in a case here mentions your

11     name?

12        A.   No, I am not familiar with the details.  I would like you to tell

13     me.  Because in Foca also prior to the war there existed two -- at least

14     two Zoran Nikolics, with an identical name and surname.  I do know that

15     in a group that I have talked about which came from Montenegro, there was

16     a member of that group, there was a person by the name of Zoran Nikolic.

17     If you have other information, please tell me the year of birth, the name

18     of the father, and other particulars for the purpose of identification

19     because we would not wish to mislead anyone that they might think that

20     this actually concerns or relates to me.  It would be fair in the very

21     least.

22        Q.   From your answer, I don't understand if there is two or three

23     Zoran Nikolics.  I see that there are two before the war, yourself, and

24     another person, and then you mention a Zoran Nikolic from Montenegro.  Is

25     that, in fact, a third person or is that also a person who was there

Page 24351

 1     before the war?

 2        A.   There were two Zoran Nikolics who lived -- who were there and

 3     lived there before the war.  A third Zoran Nikolic was a member of a

 4     group that had come from Montenegro, and I know that for a fact.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question.

 6             I'm with some concern looking at the clock, Ms. MacGregor.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  This is my last topic for questioning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's your last topic.

 9             But, Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us how much time you would

10     need?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Only a couple of minutes,

12     Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to know, perhaps, Madam Registrar, you

14     could assist, whether we could extend for not more than five to

15     ten minutes today's session because it's the last session of the week.

16             Madam Registrar is quite confident that we'll be -- that all

17     those assisting us would allow us to finish the evidence of this witness

18     today.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  I only have one final question.

20        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, as you've heard, we're trying to finish, so I want

21     to respond.  I've reviewed the evidence underlying the judgement, and I

22     don't have the information about the date of birth that you've asked for,

23     so all I can ask you is:  Is this Zoran Nikolic, who is being referred to

24     in the chamber -- excuse me, in the judgement, is this a true accusation

25     about yourself?

Page 24352

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, without a warning under Rule 90(E)

 2     you can't put this question to the witness.  So either you invite me to

 3     do it or refrain from that question because the witness says it's unfair

 4     to relate it to him where there were others.

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:  I ask you to give the warning then --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- so I can ask the question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this last question, Mr. Nikolic, I inform you

 9     about our Rules.  Our Rules says:

10             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

11     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

12     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

13     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

14     offence other than false testimony."

15             I would like to inform you that if you have concerns that by

16     answering the question in accordance with the truth that you would

17     incriminate yourself, that you may address me and ask to be relieved from

18     answering that question.

19             Could you please repeat the question.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:

21        Q.   Are you the soldier called Zoran Nikolic who in the Chamber's

22     judgement in Kunarac raped twice a Muslim detainee at the house of

23     Kunarac in Trnovace -- or Jankovic in Trnovace?

24        A.   No.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

Page 24353

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we see in

 4     e-court, I believe it's D581, paragraph 3.  I think it is now in the

 5     system.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to go to the first page -- or there is -- I

 7     think it's the second page, but at least to the page on which paragraph 3

 8     appears.

 9             Please proceed.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Nikolic, in order to overcome this problem,

12     because we have an incongruence between the English translation and

13     B/C/S, I shall just ask you this:  Talking about the second sentence

14     here --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we have a reference, please?  The

16     interpreter does not have a reference.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 3 on the screen, is that -- second

18     sentence.

19             Please put your question to the witness, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So my question is:  Was this unit that you said contained --

22     consisted of three platoons, does that have its separate command and

23     commander?

24        A.   I believe that it was directly subordinated to the head of the

25     Crisis Staff, as I've already said, because -- actually, I concluded that

Page 24354

 1     having been present at a talk and communication between my brother and

 2     the Crisis Staff.  I cannot give you any further details because I don't

 3     know them.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In -- was the commander, or the komandir, the

 5     commander of one of these three platoons someone who went by the last

 6     name of Mandic at that time?

 7        A.   I don't know.  The people I knew were my brother and

 8     Mr. Brane Cosovic.  And as I've already said, I was not formally a member

 9     of that group and I actually have explained in which way I became a

10     member of that group.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And I shall only ask you another thing in order for

12     us to clarify the time of the taking of the statement.  When you first

13     met with the Defence team of General Mladic and when you also mentioned

14     the name of Mr. Stojanovic, was any statement taken from you in the sense

15     of a written text?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   To the best of your recollection, could that have been on the

18     17th of January, 2014?

19        A.   I've said already ...

20        Q.   Yes, please go on.

21        A.   I've said already -- I said a while ago that I could not remember

22     the exact date because it meant nothing to me.  I did not consider it of

23     the essence, that particular date, on what date it was.  I know that we

24     conducted the interview and I know that there was an event that I

25     attended, and I can tell you what it was.  I was present at an interview

Page 24355

 1     which was conducted with a number of persons -- with many persons, over

 2     300 persons were being interviewed on that day and I was there by virtue

 3     of the work that do.  For that, I could hardly actually find the time to

 4     meet with you.  I don't know exactly now what date it was, but taking

 5     that event as a reference, I could subsequently inform you of the exact

 6     date of our interview.

 7        Q.   I should conclude with this question:  When asked by the Defence

 8     team of General Mladic then, specifically myself, did you promise that

 9     you would be prepared to conduct an interview with the Defence team about

10     what you knew about events in Foca in 1992?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, thank you.  That concludes my questioning.  I have

13     no further questions for you.

14        A.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

16             I have a few very short questions, and I would like to ask you to

17     respond to them in a very brief way.

18                           Questioned by the Court:

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any personal knowledge of arming and

20     distribution of weapons among the Serbs in 1991 and 1992 in Foca?  And

21     I'm thinking in terms of hundreds and thousands.  Do you have any

22     personal knowledge about that?

23        A.   I have no knowledge for 1991.  Or I do have some knowledge but

24     not about -- in terms of hundreds of thousands, the quantities that you

25     referred to.  As I said before, my platoon was involved in the

Page 24356

 1     procurement, transport, and distribution of weapons.  These were not

 2     quantities that could be measured in terms of some huge numbers.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me interrupt you there immediately.  I was

 4     thinking in a time-frame well before the war started.

 5        A.   I have no such knowledge.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  My next question is:  Do you have any personal

 7     knowledge about Muslim prisoners in KP Dom, prisoners of war, their

 8     treatment, and what happened to them?  I'm asking you again for any

 9     personal knowledge.

10        A.   I never set foot in the KP Dom or the compound.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have no personal knowledge, if I understand

12     you well.

13        A.   I was just about to say except that, as I've already said, that

14     my parents lived in the direction of Miljevina, 10 kilometres away from

15     Foca.  Because of the crisis and the lack of fuel - I had my own car but

16     I had no fuel - I was compelled when I went there to stop -- to

17     hitch-hike, sorry.  At a certain point, the van from the KP Dom arrived

18     and they stopped for me and they told me that there was -- I could not

19     sit next to the driver but I could only sit in the rear, the section

20     which is used for other purposes.  I didn't actually pay any attention

21     and didn't know what lay in store, and I entered the rear of the van in

22     which there were Muslim prisoners who were being taken to work in the

23     Miljevina mine there.  I recognised some people.  I was surprised, I have

24     to say, unpleasantly.  At the first moment they asked me whether I had

25     any cigarettes.  I did.  I gave them cigarettes, and then I asked them,

Page 24357

 1     concretely, the brother -- about the brother of one of those men, where

 2     he was, and he said that his brother was in the KP Dom.  Then I

 3     disembarked the van near the house where my parents lived, and I decided

 4     to go and visit this friend of mine because he was a colleague from work.

 5             I asked them whether they needed anything, and they said that

 6     they needed nothing but cigarettes, and that they had food which was very

 7     good and which was better than otherwise because of the work that they

 8     were doing.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But you have no personal knowledge about the food,

10     how it was prepared.  That's hearsay.

11        A.   I heard that directly from a prisoner.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I mean by hearsay.

13             I have no further questions.

14             Have my questions triggered any need?

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  I do have one follow-up question.  I just --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  Based on your question.

18                           Further Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

19        Q.   Mr. Nikolic, do you remember, approximately, the date of the

20     incident where you were in the van with the detainees?

21        A.   Please don't make me go back all that way.  After all, it's been

22     20 years, if not even more than that.  And --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If you know, tell us.  If you say you don't remember

24     the date, then that's an answer as well.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

Page 24358

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:

 2        Q.   Could it have been in October of 1992?

 3        A.   No way.  It was either 1993, middle of the year, or the end of

 4     1993.  Please don't take my word for the exact date, but there is no way

 5     it could have been October 1992.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then this concludes your testimony.

 7             Witness, I would like to ask your co-operation.  Earlier we --

 8     Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  Just one

10     question.

11                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know what happened to the man that you

13     talked to and what happened to his brother that he said was at the KP Dom

14     Foca?

15        A.   Both of these men that I did not mention by name, specifically,

16     were exchanged at a given point in time.  To the best of my knowledge, I

17     know for sure for one of them, because he visited me after the war, he

18     came to see me, and he even brought me gifts, I know that he is alive.

19     And he had been a prisoner, I think, for almost two years at the KP Dom.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  What's his name?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ekrem Cemo, that colleague of mine.

22     He was my colleague from work and a friend.  A colleague from work and a

23     friend.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What did he tell you about the fate of his brother?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me that he was alive and

Page 24359

 1     that he had been exchanged as well.  Now further on, I do not know.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Then no further questions triggered by questions by the Bench.

 4             Witness, I would like to seek your co-operation.  If you could

 5     have access to your e-mail account through the internet, which is usually

 6     possible, would you be willing, if assisted by technical staff of the

 7     Tribunal, to see whether you can retrieve already right away this

 8     afternoon your e-mail exchange in relation to your statement, are you

 9     willing to explore that possibility with the assistance of our

10     technicians?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you would fail to retrieve the e-mail

13     through that means, then of course we would like to invite you then to

14     send it from where you live to the Victims and Witness Section.  And

15     since we do not know what will appear from those messages, we cannot

16     exclude for certain that there would be any need for a recall.  And under

17     those circumstances, both parties are hereby instructed not to contact

18     the witness, and you should not be in contact with anyone about your

19     testimony, especially not the parties, up till the moment once you have

20     retrieved your e-mails.  Then, of course, you are free again -- yes,

21     Ms. MacGregor.

22             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If there is any way to

23     allow a bit time between when he's retrieved the e-mail and any response

24     from the Prosecution should the Prosecution also -- if the Chamber

25     chooses to review the e-mail, just in case we do choose to recall him --

Page 24360

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you would say then -- okay.

 2             Until further order, Witness, you should not speak with anyone

 3     about your testimony, the testimony you have given, and I'm not saying

 4     how likely it is but we cannot exclude for the full hundred per cent that

 5     you would be recalled.  And we would like to receive copy, through the

 6     Victims and Witness Section, of your e-mail exchange about your

 7     statement.  Is that clear to you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Since it is likely that we might not see each other

10     again, I would like to thank you already now for coming to The Hague and

11     for the having answered all the questions that were put to you by the

12     parties and by the Bench.  You may follow the usher.  And please keep in

13     touch with the Victims and Witness Section about the exercise to retrieve

14     that e-mail, those e-mail exchanges.

15             And, Madam Registrar, I take it that it has been clear enough

16     until now what kind of assistance the Chamber expects both VWS and the

17     technical staff to provide, and could you take care that that assistance

18     is provided.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             You may follow the usher.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I would again like to thank -- give full thanks

25     to -- yes.  I first would like to thank all the interpreters, security,

Page 24361

 1     whoever allowed us to finish to conclude the testimony of this witness

 2     today, for their flexibility, and it's really highly appreciated.

 3             Then before we adjourn, I'd like to use this opportunity to

 4     inform the parties that the Chamber will deliver guidance before the --

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm sorry, I had done that already.  Yes.

 7             Due to the revised witness schedule, Witness Milan Pejic, GRM206,

 8     is scheduled to testify as the third witness next week.  Taking into

 9     account that the Defence corrigendum tendering the witness statement was

10     filed on the 4th of July of this year, the time agreed upon between the

11     parties regarding the calling of 92 ter witnesses will be undercut by a

12     few days, and the Chamber would like to know what the parties' position

13     is on the matter.  At the same time, I think this could be exchanged --

14     unless you could do it in one or two words, Ms. Bibles, otherwise we do

15     it through informal exchanges.

16             MS. BIBLES:  We're prepared to cross-examine that witness,

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's hereby on the record.

19             We adjourn and will resume Monday, the 21st of July, 2014, 9.30

20     in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day

23                           Of July, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.