1 Tuesday, 22 July 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There are no preliminaries announced. Therefore, could the
12 witness be escorted into the courtroom.
13 Meanwhile, I use the time to inform the parties that the Chamber
14 has received the e-mail exchanges between Mr. Simovic and the Defence.
15 The Chamber makes it --
16 MR. IVETIC: I think Nikolic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- Nikolic, yes. If I -- yes, it was Mr. Nikolic.
18 Apologies for mixing them up. The Chamber has looked at it and doesn't
19 see any reason to further pursue the matter, but would like to make the
20 e-mail exchange available to the parties, and if the parties take any
21 different position, then of course we will hear from them, if there is
22 any relevant matter in it.
23 Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to make the e-mail
24 exchange as sent through the VWS to make it available to the parties.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 WITNESS: NENAD DERONJIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Deronjic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
6 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at
7 the beginning of your testimony. And Mr. Ivetic will now continue his
9 Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]
12 Q. Good morning, sir.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. I'd like to take up where we left off with 65 ter number 31002.
15 MR. IVETIC: And if we could have the second page in the English,
16 the first page in the Serbian.
17 Q. And, sir, on the Serbian your name appears at number 36 in the
18 English, it's four down from the top. And if we go to the entry for the
19 12th of July, which is 12 squares to the right of your name in the
20 English and is under the column 12 in the Serbian original, we see the
21 notation, "08-BD." What does this notation mean?
22 A. This notation means that on that day, on that date, from 0800
23 hours I was assigned to combat duty. "BD" refers to combat duty.
24 Q. And does that correspond to when you were activated within the
1 A. Yes, of course.
2 Q. And now I see the notation "BD" for the next eight squares to the
3 right, that brings us to 20 July. And then there is an entry that spans
4 across the remainder of the squares, "SJB," and then it looks like it
5 says "Srebrenica." What would both sets of markings mean?
6 A. These notations in the squares refer to combat duty up to --
7 well, BD, that's combat duty. And then from then on, it's SJB Srebrenica
8 which means that from that time on, I was assigned to Srebrenica police
10 Q. And does this document accurately --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do we enlarge also the original so that we have a
12 better look at it?
13 MR. IVETIC: Perhaps we could have the original on the entire
14 screen and zoom in. That might be easier.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And to what column are you referring, Mr. Ivetic?
17 MR. IVETIC: Under 36, it's the column from 12 to 20, and then
18 from 21 on to 29.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have a look at 29 as well? Thank you.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Sir, does this document accurately depict your duty assignments
22 from the period of 12 July to 20 July 1995?
23 A. Yes. This shows my assignments in that period.
24 Q. And where were you the entire period that is marked as BD, combat
1 A. During this period, marked as combat duty, I was in the town of
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document as the
4 next Defence exhibit.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, perhaps I'm a bit lost but have you paid
6 attention already -- we have BD, several times and then we have one time
7 we have BDSJ. Do we know already what that means? And then the next one
8 is B before it starts with Srebrenica.
9 MR. IVETIC: Yes, I had covered that, I believe that is at SJB
10 which would be Stanica Javne Bezbednosti which would be the police
11 station Srebrenica. That's I believe what --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's how you understand it?
13 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: SJB. Let me -- I want to enlarge it for myself as
15 well. Could we zoom in on --
16 MR. IVETIC: 21 and 22 I believe is the column numbers.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just have a look.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where can we find SJB? I don't see it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, here it is.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I only see SJ.
21 MR. IVETIC: And then B is in the next box.
22 JUDGE ORIE: SJB in the next --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the next box. Yes, indeed, that's what was
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. One second, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may be allowed to explain?
2 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd like to add anything to your -- we have
3 looked at it now. If you want to add anything to your previous answer,
4 if it's directly related to the questions, you may do so.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The log-book, the duty log-book,
6 was kept in the Bratunac police station which means that when it says
7 combat duty, I completed combat duty; and then after that, I was in the
8 SJB Srebrenica, in the public security station Srebrenica. That's where
9 I was assigned.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I had tendered this document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31002 receives number D585, Your
15 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, D585 is admitted
16 into evidence.
17 MR. IVETIC: I'd now like to turn to 65 ter number 1D03027.
18 Is this 1D03027?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think if you're looking for the other log-book,
20 it's -- no.
21 MR. IVETIC: What I'm looking for I have up in my e-court --
22 there it is.
23 JUDGE ORIE: There it is, okay.
24 MR. IVETIC:
25 Q. Sir, have you seen this document before?
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. And could you tell us what this document is?
3 A. This is a decision of the Ministry of the Interior, assigning me
4 to the police station in Srebrenica, which is part of the public security
5 centre in Zvornik.
6 Q. And is this the document that you identified in paragraph 20 of
7 your statement as having a date that came after your actual order to
8 appear in Srebrenica?
9 A. Yes, that is the document.
10 Q. And does this document actually state the date that you commenced
11 duties in Srebrenica police station as a member of that police station
12 rather than the separate duty as a PJP policeman?
13 A. Yes, that is correct. This shows that according to this
14 decision, I was appointed a police officer in the Srebrenica public
15 security station.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours.
17 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the date, interpreter's note.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Sir, could you repeat the date. The interpreters did not hear
20 the date.
21 A. 21st of July, 1995.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document as the
23 next exhibit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3027 receives number D586, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: D586 is admitted.
3 MR. IVETIC: I would next like to look up 1D3029.
4 Q. Sir, do you recognise this document dated 18 July 1995?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. What is it?
7 A. This is an order issued by the chief of the public security
8 centre, ordering members of the police force who had worked in the public
9 security station in Srebrenica to be activated and to be sent back to the
10 Srebrenica police station to receive their further assignments.
11 Q. Was this order communicated to you in July of 1995?
12 A. Yes, it was.
13 Q. The other persons listed in this order, is this an accurate
14 listing of persons who with you were assigned as regular policemen of the
15 SJB Srebrenica as of 21 July 1995?
16 A. Yes. This is an accurate list and these are the police officers
17 who used to work in the Srebrenica police station before the war.
18 Q. And who is the chief of the police station in Srebrenica, your
19 new boss, as of 21 July 1995?
20 A. The chief of the Srebrenica public security station at that
21 moment was Petko Pavlovic. He was the acting chief.
22 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document at this
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3029 receives number D587, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. Now, sir, during the Karadzic case were you also shown the
5 original Srebrenica police station log-book by the Prosecution counsel?
6 A. I think that the original book was shown to me in the Babovic
7 case from the Srebrenica police station.
8 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, this original log-book, was that
9 something that you had told the Prosecution about or given to them during
10 your interview in 2001?
11 A. Well, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. I was thinking about this
12 other document, but the document that you're talking about, yes, I saw it
13 in the Karadzic case and in 2001 I told the investigators about this
14 document, about its location, and in fact where it was archived.
15 Q. Now I think I've confused you. Let's call up the document so we
16 can have it in front of us and know which one we are talking about,
17 1D3028 in e-court.
18 This document, sir, the log-book from Srebrenica station, service
19 roster, this is the one I'm asking about. Is this something that you
20 told the OTP about or gave them during your interview in 2001?
21 A. This document was shown to me by the Prosecution here. The
22 Prosecutor showed me this document.
23 Q. Prior to being shown this log-book by the Prosecution in the
24 Blagojevic case, when had you last seen it?
25 A. I saw this document in the Srebrenica public security station
1 where I worked, and this document, or rather, the front page, this is
2 what I wrote. This is my handwriting.
3 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to page 2 of the same in both
5 Q. Do you recognise the names of the persons that are listed here?
6 Who were they?
7 A. I do recognise some names. I do know those police officers
8 personally. And as for some other names, I don't know them. I don't
9 know these people. But I think that they were all members of the
10 2nd Company, albeit from other police stations.
11 Q. And just to be clear, when you say "2nd Company," 2nd Company of
12 what formation?
13 A. The 2nd Company of the PJP. There were members of that company
14 who had come from other police stations but they were also engaged in
15 Srebrenica, just as I was.
16 Q. And now the document -- the page we have up in the e-court right
17 now is dated 12 July 1995. We see your name listed at the bottom in
18 the -- in both versions and it says 19 to 24, sector 1. Does that
19 comport with your recollection as to where you were performing duties on
20 the 12th of July 1995?
21 A. I was performing this duty. I was in the town of Srebrenica, in
22 the very centre of the town.
23 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to the next page in both languages.
24 Q. Here we should see -- it's on the left-hand side in the B/C/S,
25 and it's the full page in the English, we see the notations for 13 July
1 1995. And we see your name in approximately the middle of the page.
2 Does this comport to your recollection of the duties that you were
3 performing on 13 of July 1995?
4 A. Yes. This is where I was on duty service, together with
5 Danilo Petrovic.
6 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender the document at this
7 time as the next exhibit number.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3028 receives number D588,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D588 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, for my last topic I would ask we
13 briefly go into private session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
15 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. IVETIC:
1 Q. Sir, I thank you for your answers to my questions today.
2 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that completes my direct examination.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
4 Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Deronjic, you'll now be cross-examined by
7 Mr. McCloskey. You'll find him to your right. Mr. McCloskey is counsel
8 for the Prosecution.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Deronjic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Did you first become aware that you were named at --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone is --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Did you first become aware that you were named in the Srebrenica
16 events when it was -- when you were named publicly in the Krstic trial?
17 This was in the year 2000.
18 A. As far as I know, the first time my name was mentioned pertaining
19 to the events in Srebrenica was in 2001 when I gave a statement to the
20 OTP investigators in Banja Luka.
21 Q. And that was in March of 2001, with Jean-Rene Ruez?
22 A. Precisely.
23 Q. And you had received a summons as a suspect for your role in the
24 Srebrenica events prior to meeting with Mr. Ruez, had you not?
25 A. On that occasion, when I met with Mr. Ruez, I was interrogated as
1 a suspect, and I can say that he was quite unfair in the course of those
3 Q. And you had received a summons indicating you were a suspect and
4 mentioning Srebrenica before seeing Mr. Ruez; correct?
5 A. Yes. But the summons did not specify the exact allegations
6 against me. It only stated Srebrenica 1995.
7 Q. And as a result of receiving that summons, you will recall that
8 you told us you went into the Bratunac police station where you were
9 still a Bratunac officer and looked up some records to help refresh your
10 recollection upon your whereabouts during the Srebrenica times; correct?
11 A. Yes, in order to ascertain some facts, I know where I was, I know
12 about my movements, but I had to verify that in order to have some
13 official documents corroborating those facts.
14 Q. And as we know now, you knew of this book. This is -- we now
15 have it marked as D58 [sic], the Srebrenica log-book. You knew that that
16 book existed in July 1995 and you knew that it existed in 2001 when you
17 met with Mr. Ruez, did you not?
18 A. I knew about that book in July 1995. As I've already told you,
19 I actually wrote the words on the front page of that book, the service
20 roster, but I did not know what happened to that book until you showed me
21 that book here at this Tribunal in a previous case.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, you said the number would be D58.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I thought I said D588. I'm sorry. Thank you for
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, since you were interrupted anyhow,
1 one matter.
2 You said you were unfairly treated during the interview.
3 Mr. McCloskey, may I take it that the interview was conducted in
4 accordance with Rule 43, that is, audio recorded and --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have the tape of that
6 interview and it is uploaded in e-court if anyone would like review it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, this Chamber always is very seriously
8 concerned about any allegation of misconduct of investigators.
9 If you say you were unfairly treated, please tell us in what way
10 and then we'll verify that on the basis of audio and transcription of
11 your interview. So if you stick to that, that you were unfairly treated,
12 then we'll further explore that. Is that what you wish us to do?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not necessary to investigate
14 any further. I have the video and audio recording as well, I mean that
15 interview. But my opinion is that it was unfair because there was a bit
16 of voice raising and so on, but there you go.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is a rather serious accusation you make.
18 I was treated unfairly. And then to say: Well, you don't have to look
19 into that, comes as a surprise. We also could have a look in it to see
20 whether you're reliable in giving evidence on unfair treatment. We take
21 these matters seriously. If you say: Stay out, okay. We don't have to
22 do it, then we'll further ask the parties whether or not we should. But
23 please be aware that just in the first answer to start saying: I was
24 unfairly treated, may have some follow-up.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been a long time since then.
1 It doesn't really matter that much now but I just sort of said it because
2 I wasn't ready, I didn't have some information and so on and so forth.
3 As I've already said, it's been quite a while and I don't really want to
4 go into that any more. I said what I said and there you go.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. So as you've said, that you saw this book when I showed it to you
8 back in April of 2004 in the Blagojevic case; correct?
9 A. That's right, and I saw it in July when I wrote that and when I
10 had contact with that book.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Now could we go to D588. And let's go to that
12 page that Mr. Ivetic left on, and that should be page 5 -- excuse me,
13 page 6 in both languages.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, am I wrong in understanding that the
15 document we just looked at is an excerpt consisting of four pages, or am
16 I wrong?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Ours somehow we have got different
18 ones but it's page 4 in both languages. And --
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's the page where -- yes, the 13th of July is
20 dealt with.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, and --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Are the two corresponding? That is my
23 problem now, because --
24 MR. IVETIC: If I can perhaps assist, the questions that
25 Mr. McCloskey asked were relating to the other log-book from the
1 Bratunac Brigade and now we are on the Srebrenica log-book. They are two
2 separate documents, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have been talking about only one log-book --
5 MR. IVETIC: That's not correct.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- the Srebrenica book.
7 MR. IVETIC: Not if you reference his interview from 2001.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: The record is clear. He's wrong.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you consider the record to be clear and you're
11 convinced that your right, Mr. McCloskey, that's on the record.
12 MR. Ivetic: Then I move for the Chamber to review the interview
13 from 2001 in its entirety to see which document is discussed therein.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's correct. The document was discussed in that
16 interview. I did not discuss the document with the witness. The only
17 document I have discussed with the witness is this one, and --
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's D588.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- 588, that's correct.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So we are talking about that, about nothing else at
21 this moment.
22 Is that clear to you as well, Witness? We are talking
23 exclusively about the log-book. You said you put the text on the cover
24 of it in your own handwriting at this moment.
25 MR. IVETIC: For the record then, Your Honours, then I'm lost by
1 Mr. McCloskey's introduction to these questions at page 12 and 13,
2 talking about the log-book from the Bratunac that he reviewed. So this
3 is where the confusion arises.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: We all get confused, if we could just --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We start all over again. Avoid any
6 confusion, Mr. McCloskey, because the Chamber has what was shown to the
7 witness when it should always be perfectly clear. Let's just start over
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
10 Q. So we all remember when Mr. Ivetic showed you this page with your
11 name on it, 13 July. It says "duty service" and where would that have
12 been, duty service, if you can tell?
13 A. The duty service is at the police station in Srebrenica.
14 Q. Okay. We can see we are on 13 July, let's go to the next page.
15 And here we can see, in the English, under the Domavija Hotel, I think we
16 need to get -- I don't -- we see Nenad Deronjic.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We need the original Serbian. Here we go. And
18 if we could blow that Serbian up.
19 Q. And, sir, if I could hand you the original book, so you could
20 look at it and see the actual original. This is still on 13 July, isn't
22 A. I don't know. There is no date here but there is the time when I
23 am working.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the hour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the hour you were -- your working
1 hour you referred to a second ago?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 07 until 1900 hours. That is
3 what is written here.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And on the next page you can see "14 July" written?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So this reference to you is on the 13th of July?
8 A. I just see from 7 until 19. That's the only thing I see here.
9 As for the date, I cannot say anything.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, apparently you're very familiar with
11 all these documents so therefore you tell us it's about Hotel Domavija.
12 It doesn't say so. That may well be the case but now you also say the
13 next entry is next date entry is the 14th. Where do we see that? The --
14 it's not on this page, as far as I can see. So --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's on the next page, Mr. President, it does say
16 the Hotel Domavija on the top.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It says security of Domavija and Drina, that's what
18 I read on the -- what is on the screen now.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I'm sorry. I added "hotel." That's --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- no. And the same now for the 14th, where do
21 we find this in this?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we go to the next page.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's a four-page document. That's a bit of
24 a problem. You have chosen an excerpt apparently where the 14th is not
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's a document which was uploaded by the
3 Defence, this excerpt.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, well, whatever, you're using it at this moment,
6 and since you have the book in your hands, it means that you could have
7 chosen a selection different, which meets your needs. But perhaps if the
8 Chamber later could have a look -- or is there any dispute about the 14th
9 to be the next date entry, Mr. Ivetic?
10 MR. IVETIC: There is no dispute that it's the next date entry in
11 the book. As to what the entries refer to at the hours --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. The only question was whether
13 Mr. McCloskey puts to the witness that the next date entry is the 14th,
14 and therefore, that Mr. McCloskey asks him whether the witness agrees
15 that then the entry which we see before us is about the 13th, that's
16 apparently --
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, that was my point because
18 it's right in front of him and he'll see that and he's just agreed with
19 it --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's move on --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and that leaves us where we are.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: And, Mr. McCloskey, on the previous page what
23 would be the date, where his day begins? Can you see that? I mean he
24 can look.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, if we go back a page.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Three in B/C/S.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those are the entries up to the next page, the
3 same date as that date?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's the Prosecution's position, that the next
5 page which is still under the heading of 13 July is on the 13 July and
6 the next page after that says the 14th of July.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could go to in the original the next
10 page and if we could blow up, especially the --
11 Q. Well, your name and this number. And you can see, sir, next to
12 your name that there has been some alterations in the number, can't you?
13 A. There are signs that this has been altered. You asked me that in
14 2004, but it's not I. I didn't correct this in any way. I didn't change
15 anything. I worked from 7 to 19 together with Obrenovic Darko and on
16 that same day, I was --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
18 end of the sentence.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that is the case in 2004.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last part of your answer, the
21 last sentence.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 07 until 1900 hours, I worked
23 providing security in Domavija. And that same day, from 1900 hours until
24 07, I was at the police station of Srebrenica where I was on duty
25 service. And the duty service is the first one that is recorded and then
1 the other services follow only after that.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Can you see as you look in the original that prior to the
4 alteration, it would have been noted 1900 to 0900, but that was written
5 over? The 1 was written over with a 0. You can see that; correct?
6 A. I see that there were some corrections, and I cannot confirm any
7 of that. I never made these alterations. I don't know who did that and
8 I don't know --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness again spoke
10 off mike. We did not hear the end of the sentence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you come closer to the microphone and repeat
12 the last part of your answer.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can be seen that some
14 alterations or corrections were made as far as this time is concerned,
15 next to my name; however, I don't understand. I did not did this. I
16 don't know who could have done this and I don't know why this was done,
17 as far as these corrections are concerned. And as the Prosecutor also
18 says, there are some numbers here and he can discern them as for the
19 prefer ones too. I mean, I cannot establish any of that.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. And you were aware, when Mr. Ruez spoke to you and thereafter,
22 that the events that you were a suspect for took place during the day on
23 13 July?
24 A. That's what I was told there.
25 Q. So the original -- what appears to be, in the Prosecution's view,
1 the original 1900 to 0900 would have left you free on that day with no
3 A. How can I know who wrote this? The Office of the Prosecutor
4 could have written this too, if somebody is wanting to do something to
5 someone. How can we establish anything now in relation to these
6 alterations? We have to be realistic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is no need to comment on that. Witness,
8 I think it is appropriate for me at this moment, in view of the line of
9 questioning, that I inform you that if any truthful answer to any
10 question that is put to you would entail a risk of incriminating
11 yourself, that I put to you the content of Rule 90(E) and I read it for
13 "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to
14 incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to
15 answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used
16 as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any
17 offence other than false testimony."
18 Now, let it be clear that if you consider that a truthful answer
19 might tend to incriminate you, that you can address me and that you ask
20 to be relieved from answering that question, which the Chamber will then
21 further consider.
22 Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And, sir, as we did many years ago in Blagojevic, I think you'll
25 note that there are other alterations in this book, aren't there?
1 A. Precisely. That is what we established. Lawyer Karnavas was
2 there, and also -- I mean in these further lists there were these
3 corrections, alterations, whatever. I don't know. Not only by my name.
4 Q. But the only alteration on your name for 13 July is right in
5 front of you; right?
6 A. As for the 13th of July, that's what it says, but last time we
7 also established that there were other alterations on other pages, in
8 connection with other members of the police.
9 Q. I agree, and that's all for this subject.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I see it's break, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there a possibility that the Chamber would
12 have a look at the original after the break?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Of course.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We take a break, Mr. Deronjic, and we would
15 like to see you back in 20 minutes from now. You may follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to come in,
21 perhaps the Chamber could have a look at the book which it prefers to
22 look at in court. The usher has now left -- oh, here it is.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, we put a little yellow tab
24 for that area mentioning the 13th and 14th.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Concerned that we couldn't find page 3 or 4,
1 Mr. McCloskey?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Always trying to be helpful.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you may proceed. We could give it
6 back for the time being. We may want to consult it at a later stage
7 again, but --
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And for my next and I hope last topic, could we
9 start off with the map book P01087, page 10 in e-court, to help orient
11 Q. But as we are waiting for that, there will be a map graphic that
12 will come up in a minute, but how many years now have you been a
13 professionally trained police officer?
14 A. I started working in the police in 1987, so actively this is 27
16 Q. And you prepare reports that go into files and dossiers for
17 courtroom and judicial processes?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Okay. If we could flip that map around. Thank you.
20 And this is a to-scale map graphic, and I'm sure if you take a
21 look at it you'll recognise these areas. And I want to ask you about the
22 intersection of the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road and the -- what's called
23 the Milici-Zvornik road. That intersection at Konjevic Polje, from there
24 to Bratunac is, what, about 10 kilometres -- or excuse me, about 20
1 A. That's right, 21 kilometres.
2 Q. And from Bratunac to Srebrenica is about 10 kilometres?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Okay. And going to July 1995, the check-point you've talked
5 about is at that intersection at Konjevic Polje?
6 A. Yes, the check-point in Konjevic Polje that was held by the
7 Bratunac police station.
8 Q. And as I think you've clarified, one of the PJP units, the
9 6th Company of the PJP which is made up of older -- older folks actually
10 had a -- in July 1995, they were stationed there along with some regular
11 police officers like yourself; correct?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And one of those members of the 6th PJP was Dragisa Zekic?
14 A. That's right, and I know Dragisa Zekic.
15 Q. How about Mirko Peric, was he there also as a member of the
16 6th PJP?
17 A. I know Mirko Peric. Now, I don't know whether he was in the
18 6th Company but that can be checked. No problem whatsoever.
19 Q. Was he a police officer back then?
20 A. Yes. I think that during the war, he became active as a
21 policeman. He had not worked as a policeman before the war. He worked
22 in the field of catering.
23 Q. Had he been a waiter at the Hotel Fontana before the war?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And before the war, did you know a policeman named -- a Muslim
1 man named Resid Sinanovic?
2 A. I've heard the name, but I didn't know him personally. But I've
3 heard of him.
4 Q. Had you heard from Dragisa Zekic that Resid Sinanovic had
5 actually been held at that check-point during the period that the Muslims
6 were going through that area in July?
7 A. It seems to me that I heard the name, but I heard another name
8 too, a name that you know.
9 Q. So did you or did you actually hear from Dragisa Zekic that
10 Resid Sinanovic had been at that check-point during those days?
11 A. I don't know. I hadn't heard that. I heard that he had seen him
12 but where he saw him and what happened to this Resid Sinanovic, I don't
14 Q. So had you heard that Dragisa Zekic had seen Resid Sinanovic
15 while he was on duty?
16 A. I heard that from Dragisa Zekic, that he had seen that person,
17 Resid Sinanovic.
18 Q. And was that during the time frame that Muslims were moving in a
19 column from Srebrenica up through the woods towards Zvornik?
20 A. I don't know when that happened. That's a question for Dragisa
21 Zekic, not for me. I mean, I cannot give any comments regarding what
22 Dragisa Zekic saw, who he saw, who he talked to, what he did. I wouldn't
23 want to give any comments on that because I was not there and --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. You were asked whether
25 you learned from Dragisa Zekic that he had seen Resid Sinanovic while he
1 was on duty. Did he tell you anything about that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just told me that he had seen him.
3 I'm sorry, may I? Now I'm supposed to carry out some kind of
4 investigation to ask him what? I mean nothing. That's the only thing
5 I heard from him.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You're only invited to answer the questions, and do
7 I understand your testimony to be that Dragisa Zekic told you, "I saw
8 Sinanovic" without saying where, when, what circumstances, he just said,
9 "I saw him." That's how I understand your testimony and that is you're
10 confirming that by nodding "yes" apparently.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, that's right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. So Zekic would have seen him after the fall of Srebrenica?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And before the war ended?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But was that time-period in the days after Srebrenica fell when
19 the Muslims were going from Srebrenica through the woods, Konjevic Polje,
20 to Zvornik?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute about this? I mean, I take it
22 that you want to guide the witness in a certain direction, but there is
23 no --
24 MR. IVETIC: I think the witness has already answered this a
25 couple of lines above.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Could I get an answer? This is an important point to try to
4 identify the time-frame by where Dragisa Zekic saw Resid Sinanovic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the question consists of two issues.
6 Would he have seen him in the days after Srebrenica fell?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was answered already.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we got an answer for that one.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now the other question then would be when the
10 Muslims were going from Srebrenica through the woods, Konjevic Polje to
11 Zvornik, and my question was whether there is any dispute about that. Is
12 there any dispute about that, Mr. Ivetic?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: That fact itself, no, I can't imagine.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. Then phrase the question in such a way
15 that we get -- we know better because that's what the question says now.
16 But is it awareness of the witness? Is that -- of that happening? Is
17 that -- please rephrase the second part of your question.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. Was there -- are you aware of the time-period after Srebrenica
20 fell that Muslims were moving from Srebrenica, Muslim able-bodied men,
21 and others were moving from Srebrenica through the woods past
22 Konjevic Polje up towards Zvornik and on to Nezuk or that general area?
23 A. Yes. I do know. It's general knowledge that they were heading
24 down that route towards the area that was to become Federation at one
1 Q. So was it during this time-frame of this Muslim movement that
2 Resid Sinanovic told you he -- sorry, that Dragisa Zekic told you he saw
3 Resid Sinanovic?
4 A. I think that it was in that period that Dragisa told me that,
5 that he had seen Sinanovic, Resid Sinanovic.
6 Q. All right. And now in your statement -- I want to go to that
7 time period on the morning of 12 July, you say that you got off duty at
8 8.00 a.m. And then on paragraph 15 of your statement, which is now D584,
9 should be page 4 on both languages.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast; it's under seal.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
12 Q. And it says:
13 "After that, i.e., after 1500 hours on 12 July 1995, we members
14 of the 2nd Company from the police station in Bratunac went to
15 Srebrenica. I do not know how many of us there were, but I believe that
16 we managed to fit into two buses together with some other policemen from
17 the Zvornik centre. Slavoljub Mladjenvic, my commander, i.e., the
18 commander of the 2nd Company, of the Special Police unit, was also with
20 And you stand by that?
21 A. Now, if I may clarify this issue, I can be actually grateful to
22 you for asking me this question because you have found a document
23 indicating that the entire 2nd Company of the PJP was not in Srebrenica
24 which is precisely what --
25 JUDGE ORIE: You're not arguing with Mr. McCloskey. The question
1 was put to you whether you stand by this testimony in paragraph 15. Do
2 you or do you not?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could the question be put to me
4 again, please?
5 JUDGE ORIE: The portion was read to you and the question is
6 whether you stand by that evidence in your statement or not.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement that's right in front
8 of me on the screen; is that the one?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, paragraph 15. If you want to re-read it, you
10 can read it from the screen.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I stand by what is written
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then wait for the next question.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. And how many platoons did the 2nd PJP Company have at this
17 A. I don't know. I really don't know, but it can be checked. It's
18 not a problem, the number of platoons in it the 2nd Company because I was
19 not in charge of the 2nd Company. I was merely one of the members of
20 that company. I was not even a platoon commander.
21 Q. So does the number 2 sound correct?
22 A. I don't know. I can't tell you, but it's not a problem. It can
23 be checked. You can determine the number of platoons. I don't know how
24 many platoons there were.
25 Q. And in a platoon during that time, that would be roughly between
1 40 and 60 men?
2 A. I don't know. The only thing I do know is that officers from all
3 police stations were in that company, four to five people from each
4 police station per company. So now you can figure out how many people
5 there were in a company and how many people there were in a platoon and
6 how many platoons.
7 Q. Sir, you're an experienced, trained police officer. You have
8 been a suspect for your involvement at the 2nd PJP in July 1995 and after
9 all these years, you can't tell us, is that -- you want me to figure it
10 out? You can't tell us how many platoons were in the 2nd PJP?
11 A. Let me just tell you one more thing, sir. I did not serve in the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please answer the question. Mr. McCloskey asked you
14 whether it's true that you can't tell him now how many platoons were
15 there in the 2nd PJP and he gave you a few reasons why he thought that
16 you would be in a position to tell him.
17 MR. IVETIC: And for the record at line 8 the witness answered
18 the question, and so now he's being asked to explain, he started to
19 explain, and you interrupted had him.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I urged him to answer the question which was put
21 again to him, Mr. Ivetic. If your objection was question asked question
22 answered, then you could have raised that objection. I just urged him to
24 Please proceed, Mr. -- but could we receive an answer to the
25 question again.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already answered. I don't
2 know how many platoons there were, how many people there were in a
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. If we can now go to some of your Blagojevic testimony, it should
7 be at 65 ter 1D2236 beginning page 34 in e-court. And, sir?
8 MR. IVETIC: Just a caution, this is the full copy with private
9 and public, just to make sure that we are paying attention to that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that you'll read the relevant portions
11 to the witness so that it doesn't have to be tendered?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, absolutely.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed and take care that nothing appears on
14 the screen or is read which is from private or closed session.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. So on 12 July in the afternoon, did you become aware that there
17 was combat between the Muslims from Srebrenica and Serb forces in the
18 area just outside Srebrenica, Konjevic Polje area?
19 A. You're asking me if I became aware?
20 Q. Yes, of the combat between the Muslims and the Serb forces from
21 the Muslim breakout on 12 July, when you were being sent to Srebrenica,
22 according to your version.
23 A. No. I was not aware of that.
24 Q. All right. Let's at page 34, I'll read you the relevant part.
25 And this is in the context of you being sent down with your group to
1 Srebrenica, and I asked you:
2 "Q. Was there any part of the 2nd Company that was sent
3 somewhere else?"
4 Your answer is:
5 "A. I don't know about that but I don't think so. I don't think
6 anybody was sent somewhere else.
7 "Q. Well, on this -- on the afternoon, evening hours of 12 July,
8 Muslims from Srebrenica, armed Muslims, were breaking through the area
9 around Konjevic Polje than was a combat zone. Were you aware of that?"
10 Your answer:
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. So you, you're aware that Konjevic Polje has become a combat
13 zone shortly after the time that you left it, so you must have been
14 relieved to have been able to get an assignment to go to Srebrenica which
15 was not a combat zone."
16 Your answer is:
17 "A. You could put it that way.
18 "Q. And were any of your colleagues so unlucky that they got
19 assigned to go to the combat zone, Konjevic Polje, Ravni Buljim, Cerska?"
20 Your answer:
21 "A. I don't know about that. I know that they were at
22 Konjevic Polje, that's where the 6th Company was. Now, as to the rest,
23 to the other areas, I don't know if anybody went.
24 "Q. Well" --
25 Here's my question:
1 "Well, I'm talking about the 2nd Company, your crew. You would
2 have known if they had been in combat if some of them would have gotten
3 sent to combat, wouldn't you?"
4 Your answer on the next page:
5 "A. No, no. Those of us who went up there, they didn't send us
6 to any other places except to the area around the town of Srebrenica."
7 So let me just break this down and ask you a question or two. My
8 question on line 9:
9 "Well, on the afternoon, evening hours of the 12th of July,
10 Muslims of Srebrenica, armed Muslims, were breaking through the area
11 around Konjevic Polje and that was a combat zone were you aware of that?"
12 In Blagojevic you said yes, you were aware of that. I just asked
13 you a similar question and you said you were not aware of that at that
14 time. Which is it? Were you or were you not, on the 12th of July, aware
15 of combat going on in the areas I talk about here?
16 A. Well, I don't know. You seem to be unable to understand me.
17 I simply don't understand. I kept saying and I keep saying now in all
18 those situations I was just an ordinary police officer, nobody asked me
19 anything, and I was not in charge of anything. I was not supposed to
20 know things so why was I supposed to --
21 JUDGE ORIE: You're not arguing. Mr. McCloskey put to you that
22 in the other case you gave an answer which he considers to be different
23 from the answer you give now. You don't have to defend or to emphasise
24 why your present answer is the better one or the -- you were asked why
25 you give a different answer today compared to that other day.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm telling you, things were
2 not clear to me because I kept saying that I was just an ordinary police
3 officer, I had nothing to do with it, and now why I said that,
4 I suppose --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I establish that you want to give us your
6 explanation rather than to answer the question.
7 Next question, please, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
9 Q. Now let's go to Exhibit P2111. So as we can see, that this is a
10 report from the Zvornik CJB, the public security centre. That's the
11 security centre that had overall dealings with the various PJP units,
12 that they basically came from that security centre; correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And there was a -- a 1st PJP unit, as well as a 2nd and a 6th, as
15 we've already talked about; correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And that unit had also members from Bratunac, people that you
18 would have known?
19 A. You mean the 1st Company?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes. That's right. I knew them. I knew them all.
22 Q. And that was -- was that unit a bit fitter or a bit more
23 combat-ready than the 2nd?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. I want to direct your attention -- this is a dispatch on
1 12 July, and we know it's after 10.30 from just the information in the
2 first couple of pages but it's not clear exactly when it was sent out,
3 aside from that. And it's in the name of -- well it's the chief of
4 the S -- CJB and that at the time was Dragomir Vasic, wasn't it?
5 A. At that time, Dragomir Vasic was the chief of the Zvornik CJB,
6 that's correct.
7 Q. Okay. I want to draw your attention to paragraph 5. It's going
8 to be page 2 in the B/C/S and part of it in the English but let's go over
9 the English first. And at page -- at paragraph 5 it says:
10 "Acting upon President Karadzic's order which was conveyed to us
11 today over the phone, the 2nd PJ -- the 2nd Company of the Zvornik PJP
12 [two platoons, 60 men] shall be dispatched to Srebrenica with a task to
13 secure all facilities of vital importance in the town, at all the costs
14 and protect them from looting and misappropriation."
15 That's what you've been talking about, your group going to
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. It goes on to say:
19 "It will carry out the task without the co-operation of the
20 military police which is busy with other tasks, a platoon of this company
21 will lie in ambush at Ravni Buljim since the Muslim groups were spotted
22 fleeing along the axis."
23 So here we see an assignment or an intention to send a platoon of
24 the 2nd PJP to Ravni Buljim. Tell us roughly, is Ravni Buljim between
25 Jaglici and Konjevic Polje in a very rugged area?
1 A. Yes, that is correct. It's a mountainous area.
2 Q. So were you in the group of the 2nd PJP that was assigned to that
3 area on the 12 July?
4 A. I have told you where I was, and I am not aware of any group
5 being assigned to this task.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You were not asked whether you were aware of any
7 group. The question was whether you were in the group of the 2nd PJP
8 that was assigned to that area on the 12th of July. I do understand your
9 answer to be that you were not.
10 By the way, the answer of the witness of course is caused by a
11 composite question, certain -- various elements contained in it.
12 Mr. McCloskey, that's what causes it.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Well, so your answer was that you weren't even aware that a
15 platoon of your group which we just saw was sent to Srebrenica, you
16 weren't even aware that your colleagues went off to combat while you went
17 to look after Srebrenica town?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Let's go to Exhibit 65 ter 5884 -- excuse me, 65 ter 5881. And
20 let's go to the next page in both languages. And directing our attention
21 to the bottom of the page under "other business", we see that on the
22 first page, that this was a bulletin from the Zvornik public security
23 centre. Under "other business," it says, and we also note that this is
24 for the period of 13 and 14 July:
25 "Due to infiltration of enemy military formations from Srebrenica
1 into the zone of the Zvornik CJB and areas of Konjevic Polje, Cerska,
2 Han Pogled, which have in common Snagovo, Maricici, and other places at
3 risk, the 1st, 2nd, 5th, and 6th Companies of the Zvornik CJB are
5 Were you engaged in this -- the area around Konjevic Polje or
6 Cerska on 13 or 14 July?
7 A. No, I was not.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this document in evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 05881 receives number P6686,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P6686 is admitted.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Were you aware that members of the 2nd PJP -- sorry.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, may I just correct myself?
17 Document 5881 should receive number P8867, Your Honours, not -- P6687
18 instead of P6686. My apologies.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm now a bit confused. It therefore should receive
20 P8 --
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 5881 should receive number P6687 instead
22 of P6686, as previously stated.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. P6687 is now admitted, and P6686 remains the
24 same as it was when it was admitted.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Were you aware at the time that parts of your unit were in these
3 areas as described in this document, involved in the combat blocking?
4 A. I did not know.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
7 Mr. Ivetic any further questions for the witness?
8 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
12 Q. Sir, Mr. McCloskey, at transcript page 12 and 13 today asked you
13 if you looked up some records in the police station before going to the
14 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor in March of 2001. Could you
15 please explain for us how it is that you went to look up these records?
16 Were you alone?
17 A. When I went to look at these records, the assistant commander --
18 the deputy commander, was with me, the one who had written up these
19 records. So it was in his presence that I had a look at these records.
20 Q. And when you say "records," could you be more precise as to what
21 records you were looking up together with the assistant commander or
22 deputy commander prior to going to the interview with the Office of the
24 A. I was looking at records that had to do with service assignments
25 recorded in the police station of Bratunac.
1 Q. And just so that we are clear - if we can call up D585 in
2 e-court - is this the document, sir, that you looked up with the
3 assistant commander in the Bratunac police station to refresh your
4 recollection prior to going to the interview with the Office of the
5 Prosecutor in the year 2001?
6 A. Yes. That's the document that I had a look at before going to
7 Banja Luka.
8 Q. And you've thus far referred to him as the assistant or deputy
9 commander. Could you please give us the name of the individual who -- in
10 whose presence you examined this record at the police station in Bratunac
11 in 2001?
12 A. Dragan Nedeljkovic was the name of that man, and he works at the
13 Bratunac police station to this day.
14 Q. At that time, in 2001, when you went to look at this record,
15 where was the original of this record being kept, at what location?
16 A. The original was kept in the safe of the Bratunac police station,
17 and I think that that is where it is to this day, the original book.
18 Q. At the time that you looked at it with Mr. Nedeljkovic, were any
19 modifications made to it?
20 A. No, no corrections were made. It was in the original, as it had
21 been before, so there were no corrections made.
22 Q. Were there any other documents or records at the Bratunac police
23 station that you reviewed prior to going to the interview with the Office
24 of the Prosecutor in Banja Luka in March of 2001?
25 A. I did not have an opportunity to look at other documentation,
1 except for this service roster or, rather, the log-book.
2 Q. Did you try to find other documentation that you believed existed
3 that covered this time-period that would have been kept in the Bratunac
4 police station?
5 A. Well, I didn't try anything else in relation to this
6 documentation except for this documentation that I found and reviewed.
7 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to switch gears and I'd like to talk about
8 the Srebrenica police station log-book and so that we are on the same
9 page, if we can call up D588 in e-court.
10 Now that we have this document up on the screen, sir, I'd like to
11 ask you, focusing on this document, from the Srebrenica police station,
12 was this a document that you had occasion to locate and review prior to
13 going for an interview with the Office of the Prosecutor in Banja Luka in
14 March of 2001?
15 A. No. I did not have the opportunity to see this document before.
16 Actually, I saw it when I wrote that, but before going to Banja Luka,
17 I did not have an opportunity to see this.
18 Q. You just said you saw it when you wrote that. Are you referring
19 to the text that is now on the screen which would be the cover of the
21 A. That's right. What is written here on the cover is what I had
22 written. This is my handwriting.
23 Q. And I note it also has Nenad at the bottom of the -- of the
24 selection. When was this written on the cover of the log-book?
25 A. That was written when that first text was written, that is to say
1 on the 12th of July, and this, what you can see down here, is my
2 abbreviated signature, D. Nenad.
3 Q. And could you be more specific? You said the 12th of July. What
5 A. 12th of July, 1995.
6 Q. Were you charged with keeping the log-book of the SJB Srebrenica
7 or was somebody else in charge of keeping the log-book of the SJB
8 Srebrenica from 12th July 1995 onwards?
9 A. I was not charged with keeping the log-book. I just made this
10 initial record. As for the rest of the lists, this was done by the
11 then-deputy commander, that is to say, another policeman.
12 Q. If we could turn to the second page in both versions --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could the witness also give the name of
14 that other policeman, the then-deputy commander?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is Milisav Gavric.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And until when was he the deputy commander?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly but I know
18 that he was appointed deputy commander in that period, but I don't know
19 until when.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Was it for a year that he stayed there or for five
21 years or for one month?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Longer than a month, but I cannot
23 tell you exactly. I wouldn't know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for an exact answer but more than a
25 month. Could it be three months? I mean, you worked there, wasn't it --
1 weren't you?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. But that can be
3 confirmed through other checks. I mean, I cannot say.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot confirm anything by other checks. Was it
5 well, let's say, until the end of the war that he was there, or until
6 after that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. He was. While
8 I was up there, yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so he remained in that position until the end
10 of the war or longer?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Up until the end of the war. I
12 know that I left Srebrenica in 1996. I went to the border and he was
13 there carrying out those duties.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Now, sir, looking at the B/C/S original of page 2 of this
17 document that's dated the 12th of July, 1995, are any of these entries
18 your handwriting?
19 A. No. Not a single thing here was written by me. This is not my
20 handwriting. It was not written in my own hand.
21 Q. During your examination by Mr. McCloskey, you kept referring to
22 other entries that had been altered and I'd like to ask you to look at
23 the second half of the page in relation to Novicic, Jovanovic, Djuric,
24 and Ilic. Is that one of the other alterations that you and
25 Mr. McCloskey went through during the Blagojevic trial in relation to the
1 original of this book?
2 A. Precisely. There are some alterations here, with these other
3 numbers, Novicic, Jovanovic, Djuric, and Ilic.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put just one question, Mr. Ivetic?
5 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Deronjic, whose handwriting is that on the
7 left side of the screen?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the handwriting to the best
9 of my knowledge, as far as I can remember, of Milisav Gavric, the deputy
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And was he responsible for all entries in the
12 entire log-book?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, the list of policemen,
14 the activities of the service, and working hours, from when until when.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was only this man who made the entries; is
16 that what you're saying?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. Where was this service log-book of the Srebrenica police station
21 kept, according to your knowledge and information?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's vague. If we could have a time-frame, that
23 would have meaning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, were you referring to the time when it
25 was produced or are you referring to any later time?
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. The period of 1995, where was it kept during that time?
3 A. This document was kept at the Srebrenica police station or,
4 rather, in the office of the duty service.
5 Q. Now, I'd like for you to look at the entry that has been changed
6 on this page, there is a 7 that looks like it's been written over an 8.
7 And now I'd like to then turn to the next page in the B/C/S and the
8 English, and if we could flip the B/C/S to focus -- pardon me, it's going
9 to be -- pardon me, it's going to be the -- it's going to be I think the
10 fourth page in the B/C/S and if you look at the 7 that has been written
11 in next to your name?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom in?
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Does that 7 appear to be in the same style as the 7 we just
15 looked at on page 2?
16 A. Well, it seems to me that it's the same style of writing the
17 number 7 on this page, like on the previous ones.
18 Q. And if we could go to page 4 now, in both versions -- or
19 I apologise, the next page. I apologise, the next page. I think it's 5.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You uploaded a four-page document, Mr. Ivetic.
21 MR. IVETIC: Then it was page 4. I apologise for having the
22 pages jumbled up. Is this then page 4? Or -- ah, okay, this is page 4.
23 I guess the other page doesn't -- is not uploaded. I apologise, the
24 prior page, then, it's the prior page I'm looking for, the right-hand
25 side of the same. If we can zoom in on the right-hand side of that page
1 in the original B/C/S.
2 Q. Do there also appear to be alterations in the bottom right-hand
3 corner to the Serbian word "opstine"?
4 A. Yes, over here certain alterations and changes can be seen, done
5 in pen.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, the summons that you received to appear for an
7 interview for the Office of the Prosecutor, it did not list any precise
8 incident or any date or time of any incident that you were being
9 questioned on, did it?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. Prior to the actual meeting that you had with Mr. Ruez of the
12 Office of the Prosecutor in Banja Luka in March of 2001, did you know the
13 time or the facts of the incident about which they were interviewing you?
14 A. I was not made aware of any of this through the summons, I mean
15 in relation to that.
16 Q. And from the 12th through the 20th of July, 1995, when you were
17 in Srebrenica town, as part of the 2nd Company of the PJP, when you were
18 not on duty, where would you and other PJP members be situated and what
19 would you be doing?
20 A. While we were not on duty, we were getting some rest. We slept
21 at the police station of Srebrenica, and also in this building above the
22 police station in Srebrenica, in the so-called miners' buildings.
23 Q. Now, if we could go to -- focus on the left-hand side of the
24 B/C/S, and if we can go to the prior page -- we have it on the screen
25 already in English. It says, in the heading of the part where you are
1 identified, it says, in Serbian "sluzba dezurna," in English "duty
2 service." Could you explain for us what that particular assignment
4 A. The duty service means duty service in the Bratunac police
5 station, contacts with patrols, sending patrols to services, giving
6 orders if any, and all the other things that a duty policeman does.
7 Q. You have been recorded in the transcript as saying duty service
8 in the Bratunac police station. Is that what you meant to say?
9 A. No. This is at the police station in Srebrenica, the duty
10 service there.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, are we at the time for the break?
12 JUDGE ORIE: We are. We are even already beyond that.
13 MR. IVETIC: I apologise for that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's my duty to keep an eye on that, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Is there any way we can finish up right now or in
16 the next few minutes? I apologise. I just -- there is a very important
17 issue that I have outside of the Tribunal.
18 MR. IVETIC: If we could extend another five minutes I think we
19 can finish.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if that is -- I see Mr. Mladic is nodding in
21 agreement. Then we'll gladly accommodate you.
22 MR McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
25 Q. Now, if we could turn to page -- to the next page in both
1 languages, now, the heading at the top of the page talks about Domavija
2 and Drina. Where were these locations vis-ŕ-vis the police station in
4 A. Domavija is a hotel in Srebrenica. It is some 300 metres away
5 from the police station in Srebrenica on the left-hand side, that is to
6 say when we are facing Jadar. And Drina is a forestry facility right
7 next door to Domavija.
8 Q. Okay?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps a very short question, Mr. Ivetic.
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What was specifically there which needed security?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nothing. I'm telling you,
13 that's where the main office of the Drina forestry company was and there
14 was the Domavija Hotel as well. There was no one at the hotel but
15 security had to be provided for that building.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You sent a full-time security to a building where
17 there is just nothing?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a team. It's two or three
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's what I meant by a team but any other
21 building, empty building, which needed security at that time?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly it must have been
23 something important. That's why we were sent out there to provide
24 security. After all, our leading people --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
1 MR. IVETIC:
2 Q. How long were your duty shifts while you were engaged as a member
3 of the 2nd Company of the PJP in Srebrenica town in the period of 12
4 through 20 July 1995?
5 A. Well, it all depended on the service roster. Sometimes 12 hours,
6 sometimes 24 hours, but at any rate, we had these buildings there where
7 we could get some rest, get some sleep, some people would be on duty,
8 others would be sleeping and things like that.
9 Q. During this time period when you were in Srebrenica town as a
10 member of the 2nd Company of the PJP, did you personally have the ability
11 to remain in contact with the PJP -- the other PJP from the 2nd, 1st, or
12 6th Company by any means, you personally?
13 A. I had no contact and I did not have the possibility of having any
15 Q. Okay. And would that -- strike that.
16 A little bit different question: Did you have the means to have
17 any contact with anyone outside of Srebrenica town during that
19 A. No. I did not. I personally had no means of contacting anyone
20 outside the town of Srebrenica.
21 Q. Sir, I thank you for your questions. I thank you the
22 interpreters for the extra five minutes and Your Honours I've completed?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, it was a bit uncertain to
24 me whether you would not be available after the break or because -- I
25 have a few questions as well. I don't know whether you have any further
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can stay, Mr. President, if need be and
3 I did --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It sounded rather urgent that you were --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, it is, but this is of course my priority.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll try then to be as brief as possible and
7 continue for another couple of minutes.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, I just had one question on
9 one point Mr. Ivetic just made if I could.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if I put my question first, then you may
11 consider whether you still have only one question.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, when you were at the Srebrenica police
14 station, did you ever look at this what is called the log-book which
15 started on the 12th of July?
16 A. Yes. I took a look at that. I had the opportunity of seeing
17 that book, the book was in front of me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was the purpose of the book, to record
19 what assignments were given or to record who had been where?
20 A. This book was used for assignments, assignments for individual
21 policemen, to see who was where, carrying out which duty. That is to say
22 all policemen could take a look at that and see --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if you say assignments for individual
24 policemen to see who was where, rather you'd say to see who had to go
25 where to carry out what duty? Is that how I have to understand your
2 A. That's right.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So whether someone went there is not recorded here?
4 A. That was not recorded here, but this person would have to go or
5 otherwise face certain sanctions or other disciplinary methods.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it may well be that he went ill or that
7 there was a casualty in his family and that he finally didn't go without
8 being punished or disciplined?
9 A. You're right. That could have happened too.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so we do not know what actually happened but we
11 know what tasks were assigned. Now, until when did this log-book, as it
12 was called, function?
13 A. Well, this was a temporary book. That is to say momentarily,
14 while we were up there, so that people would know where we were being
15 sent and where we were carrying out our duties. Later on when all of
16 that was over I went home to get some rest and then I would return to
17 Srebrenica. That is to say after the 20th I went to get some rest, and
18 then other books were set up and other records in relation to the police
19 station of Srebrenica and --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You said other books were set up. When was
22 A. These other books were started after the 20th, when this
23 2nd Company finished these duties in Srebrenica.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, until when does this log-book last? I
25 don't know whether it's still in front of you. But otherwise, if it's
1 still there -- the original. Could we have it? Could we have a look at
2 it again?
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, looking at the log-book, the last entry is the
5 3rd of August and you said that new logbooks were started at the -- once
6 you had returned, I think you said after the 20th. Why does it go on
7 until 39rd of August? What happened on the 3rd of August that it was
8 suddenly interrupted although not yet full?
9 A. I did not have an opportunity of looking through that entire
10 book, but I know that it was kept until that period. I went after that
11 to get some rest at home in Bratunac and probably it went on, but --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are there any -- I'm also looking at the
13 Prosecution, are there any follow-up books known? Or is this what we
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this is what we have. We -- I can
16 give you information on when and where we got it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But there is no follow-up version of the same?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not that we have. There may have been one, as
19 you might imagine. I can - I think the investigator that did it is still
20 with us so I can check, but as you can imagine we only took the ones we
21 thought were relevant.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the sequence of these kind of log-books
23 may be relevant as well. That's -- of course if you have any further
24 news on that, then you'll certainly put it to the -- I have no further
25 questions for you. You have no explanation why it all stopped on the 3rd
1 of August suddenly, in the middle of a book which was far from full?
2 A. Well, I really don't know. I did not keep records in this book.
3 I did not have any activities. The only thing I did was to start this
4 record and to write that on the front page. I don't know what was
5 written in there afterwards.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What was the reason that you were the one who had to
7 write on the cover?
8 A. Well, probably because I was the first one to be in that station,
9 and I had worked there before the war, and I was probably the first of
10 those people who had worked there before the war to come, and that's why
11 I did it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see, and that's not part of the excerpt and
13 the parties are invited to upload that as well, that on the first page
14 after the cover, you didn't fill that in, so you -- or did you?
15 A. I don't see it from here in fact.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be given to the witness?
17 MR. IVETIC: We can also I think look up 65 ter number 30998.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If that helps us then --
19 MR. IVETIC: I think it may -- that's the Prosecution's upload of
20 the same book.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then it should be page 2 or 3.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, for completeness, and I believe
23 this has been scanned and should be in e-court, but these two original
24 documents were also in the book when found.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And what are they or could we have a look at it?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it's just a list of things and some sort --
2 a list of people, excuse me, and receipt of some sort.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you meanwhile take care that we have on the
4 screen the 65 ter number Mr. Ivetic was so kind to give?
5 MR. IVETIC: I think Your Honours wanted page 2 of this.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it -- let me just.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can upload the entire -- the entire one under
8 our number if you would like.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I just want to have a look at it.
10 If you look at your page service roster log-book, so you were
11 asked to write on the outside but then you gave it to someone else to
12 write on the first page what is this about?
13 A. Yes. Somebody else did it. This is not my handwriting.
14 Somebody else wrote this. It wasn't me. The service roster log-book.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And -- okay. I leave it to that at this
16 moment. Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, but of course we have no idea what it
17 all is. I take it that it lacks such relevance that you haven't drawn
18 our attention to it in any other way. I give it -- I return it to
19 Madam Registrar. I have no further questions. And the log-book may be
20 returned to the -- Madam Registrar, the log-book can be returned to the
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: One last document on the issue raised by
23 Mr. Ivetic about his lack of ability to communicate in Srebrenica. If we
24 could have 65 ter 4052 on the --
25 Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
1 Q. Sir, I'm sure you knew a man that was born in Bratunac named
2 Zeljko Ninkovic?
3 A. Zeljko Ninkovic was not born in Bratunac.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you know him.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew him.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. And we can see from this document from Dragomir Vasic, that it
8 was known to the CSB the same day that he was killed in the combat on
9 Konjevic Polje. Surely you would have gotten the word that this Bratunac
10 member of the 1st PJP was killed within a day or a few days after this
11 tragic death?
12 A. Are you asking me? Are you -- I don't understand.
13 Q. Yes. Surely you heard within a few days of his death?
14 A. We heard about his death, but I personally did not contact
15 anyone. In fact I was unable to contact anyone. Our superiors probably
16 were able to get in touch with somebody, but I personally could not.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
18 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 4052 receives number P6688,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. No further
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: On this log-book that may be helpful for
1 Q. Were you present or did you -- excuse me -- let -- did you know
2 that the Office of the Prosecutor on 2nd of June, 2002, went to the MUP
3 Bratunac Public Security Service building and seized the original of the
4 Srebrenica log-book, 585 in this case?
5 A. I did not know that.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, nothing further.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Witness, when I earlier said when you were asked whether you knew
9 Mr. Zeljko Ninkovic, when you said that he was not born in Bratunac,
10 I was too early because Mr. McCloskey had made that part of his question.
11 So you are fully right in telling us first of all that you do not know
12 him to have been born in Bratunac. Apologies for that.
13 Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic?
14 MR. IVETIC: None, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then this concludes your evidence, Mr. Deronjic.
16 I'd like to thank you very much for having come to The Hague and for
17 having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and
18 by the Bench. And I wish you a safe return home again.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take the break, Mr. Ivetic, the witness
22 said -- to give any follow-up to his remark that he was unfairly treated.
23 Is the Defence of the same view that we don't have to pay further
24 attention to it or would you like us to review the interview and then
25 verify whether there is any -- whether the witness's claim is reliable or
2 MR. IVETIC: We have no problem with you looking at the
3 interview. In fact I think I had subsequent to that asked for the whole
4 interview to be reviewed to verify that the only document that was
5 discussed as having been reviewed at that time was the Bratunac log-book,
6 not the Srebrenica log-book, as had had been implied by Mr. McCloskey's
7 line of questions. It's uploaded into the system, I believe.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, Mr. Ivetic, I asked you whether you -- you
9 wanted us to follow up. The Chamber itself, having heard what the
10 witness said, is not inclined to initiate any follow-up unless one of the
11 parties -- and I would say if the witness had been exaggerating then it
12 might be -- if the witness has not exaggerated, then I can imagine that
13 the Defence would have an interest in the Chamber further looking at --
14 MR. IVETIC: Yes, and that's why I said we would like to have the
15 Chamber -- I guess you can't look at it, you can listen to the audio,
16 it's my understanding it's only an audio recording, the transcript of
17 which I think the Prosecution may have uploaded I don't have a number for
18 it but do I have a copy of the transcript.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But then I take it that you will identify the
20 portions where you consider that there was some merit in what the witness
21 said about being unfairly treated.
22 MR. IVETIC: Well, then I would have to listen to it I only have
23 had access to the transcript at this time, Your Honours. So I have been
24 working off the English transcript of that interview. I have not had the
25 audio to --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether the Defence had had any
2 specific interest in that, and if you say you should listen to the audio
3 for us apparently to find out where perhaps a voice was raised or not,
4 without you yourself having listened to it, that is not the way in which
5 this Chamber works.
6 MR. IVETIC: I understand.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So if there is any concern about the way in which
8 the witness was treated, please identify it and we will carefully verify
10 MR. IVETIC: I will then take that under advisement and I will
11 petition the Court if we decide, we can find those sections to clearly
12 point you in that direction.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that. Well, we went quite a bit
16 beyond the time we had on our minds. We take a break and we will resume
17 at 20 minutes to 1.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, a few matters. First of all, in
21 relation to witness Nikolic, the parties have been granted access now to
22 the e-mail exchange. If there is any intention to give it any follow-up
23 then the Chamber would like to hear that as quickly as possible because
24 otherwise we would instruct VWS to inform the witness that he's not in
25 any way limited any more in his communication with other persons about
1 his role as a witness. So therefore, in order not to let him wait,
2 Mr. Ivetic, I saw there was even a quick consultation, no follow-up from
3 the Defence side?
4 MR. IVETIC: From the Defence side, no follow-up.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber?
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm just verifying right now if I could
7 report back later today.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could do that so that the witness should
9 not wait too long.
10 Then there is another matter. There is a pending motion on --
11 well it's not a motion. It's an objection to the testimony of Mr. Pejic.
12 And the Chamber would like to decide on that objection and do it now.
13 MR. LUKIC: Sorry to interrupt.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic?
15 MR. LUKIC: Do you want to hear our -- I think we have some
16 additional submissions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you would know that as matters stand now,
18 that the Chamber was about to deny the objection, would that mean that
19 you would still want to strengthen your case? Which sometimes makes
20 sense. I'm not kidding, but if it's just about the outcome, then you
21 shouldn't be too concerned.
22 MR. LUKIC: Then probably we will have to deal with that some
23 other time. But if it's -- I don't want to spoil your decision.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, you're not spoiling the decision in any way,
25 Mr. Lukic.
1 Then I give the decision. I'll not limit myself to that.
2 But first the decision.
3 In the 10th of June, 2014, response to the Defence Rule 92 ter
4 motion for Milan Pejic, the Prosecution objected to the admission of
5 paragraphs 19 to 23 of Pejic's statement on the basis that they contain
6 tu quoque evidence. On the 4th of July the Defence filed a revised
7 statement; however, paragraphs 19 to 23 have not changed significantly
8 and the Chamber considers the Prosecution's objections to apply
9 mutatis mutandis to the new statement.
10 On the 16th of July, 2014, the Defence filed an additional
11 submission, arguing that paragraphs 19 to 23 of the statement are
12 relevant and that the Prosecution's objections are without merit and
13 should be dismissed. The Chamber notes the Prosecution's recent filing
14 of the 18th of July on this matter and hereby grants the Prosecution
15 leave to surreply.
16 Generally, the Chamber does not consider evidence to be tu quoque
17 solely on the basis of its subject matter. In this case, the Defence
18 argues that paragraphs 19 to 23 provide evidence that, and I quote,
19 "There was incoming fire from ABiH heavy weapons" which it submits caused
20 a threat to the Serb population of Sarajevo. It argues that as a result,
21 there was, and I quote again, "A legitimate justification for VRS
22 military actions against the ABiH in and around Sarajevo, as well as for
23 VRS heavy weapons fire."
24 Lastly, the Defence submits the proposed evidence is relevant to
25 the placement of these ABiH weapons in relation to the VRS as well as the
1 manner in which they were produced.
2 In its surreply, the Prosecution argues that the assertions made
3 by the Defence in relation to Prosecution witnesses are unsubstantiated,
4 that the Defence misconstrues the Prosecution's position as well as the
5 Defence and in doing so creates a justification for admitting otherwise
6 inadmissible tu quoque evidence. In sum, the Prosecution submits that
7 the Defence fails to present a legally valid reason for the admission of
8 Pejic's evidence.
9 The Chamber understands the Defence to argue that paragraphs 19
10 to 23 of the witness's statement relates to motive for VRS military
11 action in Sarajevo during the relevant period in the indictment, which,
12 and in this respect the Chamber finds that the statement is not deprived
13 of relevance or probative value however limited it may be, and for that
14 reason, the Chamber denies the Prosecution's objections focusing
15 exclusively on tu quoque and permit the tendering of Pejic's statement
16 inclusive of paragraphs 19 to 23.
17 This concludes the Chamber's decision on the matter.
18 Now, having concluded the decision, this does not mean that the
19 Chamber does not have major concerns about this type of statements and
20 the way in which time and also court time is used, but it will address
21 that in its more general guidance, which is to follow later this week.
22 But the tu quoque objection is denied.
23 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
24 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, we would call Mr. Pejic, Milan.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the
2 MR. LUKIC: And just to inform Your Honours and Ms. Stewart,
3 I didn't have time to ask her kindly our intention is to play video
4 marked as D523 MFI'd. D523. Of course, asking her assistance.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Pejic. Before you give
7 evidence, the rules require you to make a solemn declaration. May
8 I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day to you, too. I solemnly
10 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 WITNESS: MILAN PEJIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pejic. Please be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pejic, you will first be examined by Mr. Lukic.
17 You'll find him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
18 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just ask the
20 assistance of the usher to provide the witness with a clean statement, of
21 course, to show it to the Prosecution first.
22 MS. HASAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Mr. Lukic referred to
23 D523, that's a Defence exhibit. That's a video. Ms. Stewart informs me
24 she was not informed about this video in advance. The CD sits at her
25 desk and is not in Sanction, so she is unable to play that video for the
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
3 MR. LUKIC: We will try to sort it out differently. I think my
4 colleague Mr. Ivetic will leave now and try to see if he can do anything.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's an important task to fulfil, Mr. Lukic
6 please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Pejic, good afternoon.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. You have in front of you a written statement and now I would like
12 this statement to be -- or rather 1D1622 to be placed on the screen in
13 front of you.
14 Doctor, do you see this statement in front of you and you also
15 have it in hard copy? For administrative reasons I will now ask you
16 whether you have had an opportunity to look at the statement before.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The signature that we see here on the screen, on the first page,
19 whose signature is it?
20 A. It is my signature.
21 Q. Let us look at the last page. The signature on the last page,
22 whose is it?
23 A. This is also my signature and this was signed on the 29th of May,
25 Q. This statement that you have in front of you, does it reflect
1 accurately what you told the Defence team representing General Mladic?
2 A. I think it does.
3 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions today, would you provide
4 the same answers?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would like to tender this statement
7 into the evidence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1622 receives number D589,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D589 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. LUKIC: With your leave, Your Honours, I would have -- first
13 read a short summary and then have a few questions for this gentleman.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggest, Mr. Lukic.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Witness worked as a doctor in Kosevo clinic as of from 1979,
17 specialised in the diseases of the ear, throat, and nose. As of May
18 1992, witness worked in the military hospital in Blazuj. Witness will
19 testify on overall situation in Sarajevo before and after conflict
20 emerged. He will explain circumstances of creation of this hospital in
21 Blazuj. Since he worked in Kosevo Hospital for a longer period, he will
22 confirm the situation worsened in April 1992, where patients of
23 Kosevo Hospital feared for own security while heading to Kosevo Hospital,
24 and they avoid arriving for treatment.
25 He will explain his knowledge on existence of paramilitaries in
1 Sarajevo at the beginning of the conflict. In April 1992, attack
2 occurred on hotel in Ilidza, where UNPROFOR members were located. Many
3 people were wounded and killed. He had to give to those people first
4 medical aid, since it was not possible to leave for Sarajevo. He will
5 testify on creation of Crisis Staff in the hospital and its activity.
6 He will explain circumstances of organisation and work of
7 hospital in Blazuj, on records kept, on number and ethnicity of patients,
8 on medical care in this hospital in relevant period. He will also
9 testify on their injuries and type of weapons which caused those
10 injuries. He will also explain security situation in and around the
11 hospital, during the period of conflict.
12 The witness will also testify on attack from October of 1992
13 where bus station in Ilidza was shelled, where many civilians were killed
14 and wounded.
15 And our plan is to show this witness the video we just mentioned
16 minutes ago, and to ask for his knowledge on that video and smuggling on
17 military equipment in -- in the medical -- actually oxygen bottles.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you want to ask that, that sounds -- we've
19 heard that now a couple of times now. Is this witness in a position to
20 add something substantial to what we have heard already? As you know,
21 the Chamber is trying to encourage the parties to avoid repetitious
22 evidence. Have you discussed it with Ms. --
23 MR. LUKIC: We have nothing to add. We just wanted video to be
24 admitted since it arrived late with the previous witness. It was a
25 translator who testified on the same issue but it was late given I think
1 to the Prosecution, so it was not admitted.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, would there be any objection against
3 it? Then we could admit it if both parties consider it -- if the Defence
4 considers it is relevant to present it as evidence and if you have no
5 objections we could just look at it and have it admitted.
6 MS. HASAN: If it's the same video we saw with Batanic a few
7 weeks ago, then there is no objection.
8 MR. LUKIC: It's the same video.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we don't have to play it again,
10 Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That may smoothen the proceedings. Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, let me first ask you something about the
15 hospital in Blazuj. Could you just tell us briefly who worked in that
16 hospital? Was it mobilised personnel? Was there compulsory work
17 service? Did you hold a rank?
18 A. Well, the hospital in Blazuj, right at the beginning, was an
19 example of the way in which medical workers organised themselves in that
20 area. No orders had been received, either from the military or civilian
21 authorities, because this part of Sarajevo, which was mostly inhabited by
22 Serbs, did not have a permanent medical care facility, and because of the
23 attacks and other combat activities against Ilidza which was inhabited by
24 Serbs where there were some local guards organised by the Territorial
25 Defence, wounded were coming in, both civilians and those Territorial
1 Defence members who were defending this area. And before the war broke
2 out, the hospital where those people gravitated was the Kosevo Hospital
3 and the military hospital in Sarajevo which was now the city hospital.
4 It was very difficult to reach those two facilities at that time, and the
5 wounded and the sick based on their experience from what happened in
6 Dobrovoljacka Street and the fate suffered by the soldiers who were
7 wounded and captured, they didn't want to go to the hospital. I as a
8 doctor and a group of medical technicians, we faced this huge problems,
9 what to do.
10 In this situation, the local commune, which was the micro nucleus
11 of local government, gave me catering establishment which was part of a
12 factory Zica a metal working factory and this is where we managed to set
13 up the first aid station, and since the injuries that we encountered as
14 the conflict progressed required a higher level of medical care, and we
15 were not ready to provide it, we did not have the wherewithal, we did not
16 have the equipment, in fact we didn't even have the expertise. I was an
17 ear, nose and throat specialist and the other two or three doctors, they
18 were junior doctors, unexperienced doctors. So what we did, we took the
19 civilians and the Territorial Defence members, and we sent them to the
20 Pale hospital which was about 30 kilometres away from us. But from
21 Blazuj or, rather, from Ilidza to Pale it took about five hours to get
22 there because you had to take the round about route, mountain roads and
23 so on, and so we -- unfortunately because we didn't have the equipment,
24 many of those people died. The hospital was an example of the medical
25 workers and the population organising themselves to provide the service.
1 I don't know if I have answered your question, and if you're happy with
2 my answer, but that would be it in substance.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic is certainly encouraged to put more
4 focused questions to you, witness, because you've told us a lot but the
5 relevance and probative value of it is not apparent immediately.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, I would kindly ask you to look at
9 paragraph 4 of your statement. It's at page 2 in both versions. Well,
10 the document is already on the screen. Let us now move to page 2. Here,
11 you talk about the 22nd of April, 1992. You talk about the attack on
12 Ilidza. Now, relating to this paragraph of your statement, I would like
13 to show you a document, that's 1D2827.
14 Doctor, you see this document in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Who is the author of the document?
17 A. It's me, and the names of the injured people were taken from the
18 protocol of the Zica hospital.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the English translation?
20 THE REGISTRAR: There is no English translation in e-court,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic?
23 MR. LUKIC: I'll -- in this document, Your Honours, it's obvious
24 that the translation is lacking. We just see names and on the -- beside
25 the names usually Latin diagnoses, so I can ask shortly the doctor about
1 the type of the wounds recorded in this document and we'll ask for the
2 same to be MFI'd.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could we not -- I think the Chamber has some
4 experience, and the document apparently gives a name and then a
5 diagnosis, and the V usually stand for wound, vulnus, and what is the
6 right hand is clear and what is the back of the body. So I suggest that
7 unless you want to spend considerable attention to the details of the
8 diagnoses, that we just -- that you ask one or two questions and that we
9 move on and wait, MFI the document, and if any surprise comes up when the
10 English translation is produced, then we will decide on how to proceed.
11 Ms. Hasan?
12 MS. HASAN: Your Honour, just to point out that there is more
13 than just Latin on that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that. So therefore I would suggest that
15 we read at least the first line and that we also read the last three or
16 four lines but leave it to that for the time being. Could you please
17 read it very slowly and could you also be reminded, Mr. Lukic, that this
18 is not the way we are usually proceeding with interpretation compared to
19 translation. Please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Do you want me to read or
21 would you rather the witness read?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness could read slowly out what he
23 reads at the heading of this document. Mr. Pejic would you please do
24 that? Would you please read slowly aloud?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. List of injured
1 civilians, injured in an attack on the municipality of Ilidza on the 22nd
2 of April, 1992.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now read what appears below the line
4 which starts with number 29.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The list contains 29 entries. So
6 a total of 29 names of injured people is on the list. The other injured
7 and wounded persons with minor wounds, 25, were given first aid in the
8 outpatient clinic at Ilidza. The total number of injured persons is 56
9 but not all of them reported at Zica but were treated elsewhere." I've
10 already stated in the previous passage where that was. "The seriously
11 wounded persons were brought to the hospital. In the afternoon, those
12 people who were killed were brought to the hospital, a total of 11
14 "Signed, Dr. Milan Pejic."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Lukic, I would have one
16 question. Does your medical expertise allow you to tell them that those
17 29 persons were civilians?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, at
19 that time, there was no mobilisation in force. There were no regular
20 military forces in Ilidza. There was the Territorial Defence, and there
21 were some village or street guards on all three sides. Based on the
22 clothes that those people were wearing, as far as I'm concerned, they
23 were civilians. There are documents kept regarding this incident in the
24 protocol of the Zica hospital and -- yes, I'm sorry, I do apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Dr. Pejic, you're answering a lot of questions which
1 are not put to you. The real answer which I understand is, no, that your
2 medical expertise doesn't allow you but that you gave your assessment on
3 the basis of clothing of the people and --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: All the rest is not asked. Please proceed,
6 Mr. Lukic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I?
9 JUDGE ORIE: If it is in relation to a question, you may.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Yes, it is
11 related to the question. I think they are civilians because I know
12 90 per cent of these people. They were not soldiers. They were my
13 neighbours who live in that area.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And none of them was affiliated with the TO or
15 90 per cent of the persons were totally out of the, if I could say, the
16 armed forces or what came close to it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that was the way it
19 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has received quite a lot of evidence
20 that, on both sides, all male men fit for military service were perhaps
21 not officially recruited but at least had been armed or armed themselves
22 in order to protect the area, et cetera, and you say it's 90 per cent,
23 which was entirely outside the combatant --
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have an answer?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really do not know that there was
2 mobilisation then. It was only after the establishment of the Army of
3 Republika Srpska we received these papers. Now, whether there was
4 somebody who was a policeman, no, I did not have any people in uniform.
5 Was anybody an active soldier? No. I didn't have anyone in uniform.
6 Did they have weapons? Perhaps hunting weapons. I don't know. I was
7 not on the spot. It is wounded people who were brought to me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now I'd like to turn briefly to paragraph 10 of your statement.
11 And this is what you say there. Actually we can have it on the screen
12 again. D589. Page 3.
13 [In English] Could we have the next page in English version too?
14 Paragraph 10. Thank you.
15 [Interpretation] This is what you say in this paragraph. It
16 never mattered who were the individuals we were helping. We treated
17 everyone equally, be them Muslims, Croats or Serbs. We helped everyone.
18 And then you continue. This is what I'd like to ask you in this regard:
19 To this day, are there archives in your hospital? Are their patient
21 A. Yes, patient files exist.
22 Q. Could you please tell me which are the ones that are accessible
23 today and where can we find them?
24 A. If you allow me first of all I have been a doctor for very many
25 years and I know what a medical institution should do and what kind of
1 records should be kept. In the hospital that I headed, and where
2 I worked, there were files on injured persons and ill persons who
3 reported for treatment for the first time. Also there were files
4 concerning those who were admitted for hospital treatment. There were
5 also files on how long they were there, as in-patients and when they were
6 sent out. Every wounded person and every ill person regardless of where
7 they came from was given medical assistance. They were all given medical
8 findings as well. If they were not admitted into hospital, they were
9 given discharge papers, either from a GP stating what their condition was
10 or discharge papers about the surgery that they had undergone and how
11 they were treated generally. These files were kept at the Kasindol
12 Hospital in the office where I work, and then I transferred these
13 documents after leaving Sarajevo, Serb Sarajevo, and I issued a countless
14 number of certificates on that basis, on woundings, and so on and so
15 forth. Right now, they are in the headquarters of the Ilidza refugees in
16 Sarajevo, the street of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade number 2, Prevasareska
17 [phoen] brigada. They are accessible and all the information I presented
18 here can be found there.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the last sentence was the answer to your
21 question. It was a very long answer.
22 MR. LUKIC: Although I asked for the type of protocols as well,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The last question was: Could you please tell me
25 which are the ones that are accessible today and where we can find them?
1 That was your question. And that was --
2 MR. LUKIC: Talking about the protocols.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's in sequence to patient files exist. That's
4 what the witness said and then you asked this question. But in general,
5 Mr. Lukic, please keep proper control over the -- over a focused
6 examination of the witness.
7 MR. LUKIC: I'll try my best. Maybe it will not be enough.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, now I'd like to show you a document that
9 is registered as 1D2033 in e-court. Dr. Pejic, have you ever seen this
10 document before?
11 A. I saw it when I wrote it.
12 Q. This document has to do with medical treatment, as we can see
13 from the document itself, of the population and HVO combatants of the
14 municipality of Kiseljak, 150 serious patients and so on and so forth.
15 These 150 seriously wounded and sick individuals, would that also pertain
16 to members of the HVO? Actually, who does it pertain to?
17 A. It pertains to members of the HVO and the inhabitants of
18 Herceg-Bosna. This was a report written on the 13th of October, 1993.
19 As for the number of persons that we assisted in the years after that,
20 that number is much bigger than this. Maybe I won't be too extensive if
21 I say a bit more about this, if Their Honours allow me to do so.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I would say that Mr. Lukic should explain what the
23 relevance of this is. I highly appreciate that medical services were
24 rendered to other groups, but what's the relevance for this case? This
25 case is not about not paying proper attention to patients. This case is
1 about war crimes, crimes against humanity. That's what this case is
2 about, Mr. Lukic, and what would change this, what's the relevance of
3 this, apart from appreciation of what was done?
4 MR. LUKIC: Exactly. This one goes to mens rea.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mens rea, mens rea of whom?
6 MR. LUKIC: Of our client.
7 JUDGE ORIE: In what way?
8 MR. LUKIC: I can continue. I had the line of questions about my
9 client at the end, but I can proceed with that line of questions now, if
10 you want me to do so.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then please move to that without further
12 delay. Do you think that this has got anything to do with any
13 instructions or was Mr. Mladic aware of all this, Mr. Pejic, to your
14 knowledge? You sent it to civilian authorities, apparently. Although a
15 copy was sent to the Main Staff of the VRS.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether General Mladic
17 knew about this, that the HVO members who were involved in the
18 Croatian-Bosnian conflict were coming to my hospital to be treated
19 because I didn't receive any instructions. We behaved on the basis of
20 medical ethics, the oath of Hippocrates, and the medical profession.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is speaking
22 too fast for interpretation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were speaking too fast.
24 Mr. Lukic, we will invite the witness to repeat the last part of
25 his answer, but would you then please come to your point because I'm not
1 aware that there were charges primarily of crimes committed against HVO
2 people, and that's what this is about, and the population of Kiseljak.
3 Unless I misunderstood the --
4 MR. LUKIC: The term the Prosecution uses is "non-Serbs."
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in every respect only in a relevant
6 context, Mr. Lukic. It's not everything that happened to non-Serbs the
7 accused is blamed for. That certainly is not the gist of this
8 indictment. As you are aware of, I take it.
9 MR. LUKIC:
10 JUDGE ORIE: Or is it your point that you want to say there could
11 be no discriminatory intent because you at some points have behaved well
12 against that members of that same ethnic group or -- is that the point?
13 MR. LUKIC: Our point is that you cannot have at one point in
14 time and at another point in time you do not have and it goes up and
15 down. You either have intent or you do not. I don't understand that
16 somebody can be on the weekends only with the criminal intent and not
17 with the same intent during the same war.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I -- well, I do understand -- I notice that
19 you do not understand that and please move on.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pejic, we see down here that this was
22 submitted to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and, inter
23 alia, to the Ministry of Health of Republika Srpska. Number 5 says
24 command of the Ilidza Brigade. And number 6 is illegible. That's the
25 document that we found. And in the English version, obviously this could
1 not have been translated. Do you know who is referred to under number 6?
2 Can you see it from the document? Do you know?
3 A. Yes. The command of the Igman Brigade, because we were
4 duty-bound to do that as well. So this is the command of the Igman
5 Brigade. It was these two brigades that were in this area, namely this
6 was their area of responsibility.
7 Q. As for the addressees that this document was sent to, number 1,
8 Main Staff of the VRS; number 5, the command of the Ilidza Brigade;
9 number 6, command of the Igman Brigade, did you ever receive orders from
10 any of them or instructions or recommendations to the effect that Muslims
11 and Croats should not be treated?
12 A. I claim with full responsibility, no.
13 Q. Did General Ratko Mladic ever visit your hospital?
14 A. Yes, several times.
15 Q. On those occasions, did he talk to the patients, the wounded?
16 A. Yes. He visited all the wounded, and all the patients, the ill
17 people, and he talked to me as head of the hospital. And irrespective of
18 ethnicity, he shook hands with practically all the patients, all the
19 wounded persons and ill persons. As far as I remember he was very
20 cordially greeted by all. This happened 20 years ago so I cannot
21 remember each and every moment but never was there a single word from
22 General Mladic to the effect that somebody should not be treated at this
23 hospital and that someone did not belong to that hospital at all.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan?
25 MS. HASAN: Mr. President, Your Honours, I didn't object to that
1 question but none of Mr. Mladic's appearances at the hospital, what he
2 did or what he said, was provided in the statement so we have no notice
3 of General Mladic's presence there. But --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic?
5 MS. HASAN: Just for the next time we should receive such notice,
6 particularly about the accused.
7 JUDGE ORIE: For the next time but this, we have had quite many
8 next times in this respect.
9 Mr. Lukic, anywhere in the statement where you discuss the
10 presence or Mr. Mladic visiting the hospital?
11 MR. LUKIC: I'll just ask my colleague Mr. Ivetic if he can find
12 it in the statement.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You should be on top of the statement in such a way
14 when examining the witness --
15 MR. LUKIC: I saw it but obviously --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's move on, and then -- there is another
17 matter I'm looking at the clock. We could proceed in two ways. We could
18 take a 20-minutes break and then continue for another quarter of an hour
19 or we could skip one of the breaks because we had a very long first
20 session and then, for example, finish at -- in 15 or 20 minutes from now,
21 which would be a session of one hour but then to finish for the day.
22 MR. LUKIC: I think it's better to continue, if you don't mind.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no, I do not at all. So therefore we will skip
24 the next break and we will continue until ten minutes to 2.00.
25 MR. LUKIC: May I continue, Your Honour, now? Thank you. We to
1 tender this document into evidence. I would cut then my questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2033 receives number D590,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D590 is admitted.
6 MR. LUKIC: I would like to have on our screens 1D3086.
7 Q. [Interpretation] Doctor, when did we receive this document from
9 A. Well, I don't know whether it was yesterday, but I do think, yes,
10 I gave it to you yesterday during our proofing session.
11 Q. I'm asking you this because we don't have the translation of this
12 document, so I will very briefly ask you if you could read the title of
13 this document for us?
14 A. "Injured civilians treated in the Zica hospital in the course of
16 Q. When you say "civilians," what did you mean by that? Who was
17 covered by this term?
18 A. When I say civilians, I mean all those people who were not part
19 of the Republika Srpska army, women, men, children, Croats, Croats who
20 were not soldiers in the Republika Srpska army, because here you have a
21 significant number of Croats who are on this list. Some were soldiers
22 and some were not, and we treated them as HVO members, and as far as we
23 were concerned, they were civilians. Furthermore, these were people who
24 did not live in the area of responsibility of the Republika Srpska army.
25 They lived in a different region, in Central Bosnia.
1 Q. But how did they come to be in your hospital?
2 A. They were brought there in various transportation -- means of
3 transportation, in ambulances, in motor vehicles, and in other ways.
4 Q. Who brought them there?
5 A. Croats were bringing them there.
6 Q. As regards this list, do you know how many HVO members are listed
7 here, approximately?
8 A. Well, it's difficult to say, but I think that there are 130 or so
9 Croats on this list. All of them were listed as HVO. I don't know
10 whether they were in the actual fact members of the HVO or not. And in
11 light of the fact that the -- you had military and civilian authorities
12 in that region, just as you had in our region, we treated them as
13 civilians because they were not residents of the Serbian Sarajevo.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Hasan, having now listened to a long story about
15 Croats, possibly including HVO members being treated in that hospital, is
16 there any dispute about it? I mean, you don't have to agree on it but if
17 there is no dispute about it, for whatever reason, because you do not
18 consider it relevant or -- then tell us.
19 MS. HASAN: For one thing it's not very clear where this list
20 comes from. So while the witness says it's covers --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's assume that it's a truthful list, would that
22 change your position?
23 MS. HASAN: I would generally object to the admission of this
24 document because I don't see the relevance of it but I cannot verify or
25 not whether -- I don't have an objection to that there is Croats on this
1 list, no.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And you have no objections or at least you do not
3 challenge that Croats and including HVO members have been treated at that
5 MS. HASAN: No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Even without seeing that list?
7 MS. HASAN: No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it seems to be a rather useless exercise
9 what we are doing at this moment. Please proceed. There is no dispute.
10 Only thing is that a list --
11 MR. LUKIC: I just heard that there is no dispute.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you could have asked before. You're under a
13 constant duty to wonder whether what you present as evidence is on an
14 issue which is in dispute.
15 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just a little clarification for myself.
19 Doctor, are you saying at page 78 lines 14 to 20, you say all of
20 them were listed as HVO. I don't know whether they were in the actual
21 fact members of the HVO or not, and in light of the fact that you had
22 military and civilian authorities in the region, just as you had in our
23 region, we treated them as civilians.
24 Now, if you didn't know that they were HVO, why did you list them
25 as HVO?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I listed them as HVO because of the
2 area where they lived. The area where they lived was under the control
3 of the HVO.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. Then you go on to say but you treated them
5 as civilians. Are they HVO or are they civilians?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is a question that you
7 should ask of the people from the area. What's the formation they belong
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I asked you because you just told us this, just a
10 second. I'm quoting what you said. You said:
11 And in light of the fact that they, and you had military and
12 civilian authorities in that region just as you had in our region, we
13 treated them as civilians. So you treated them as civilians but you say
14 they are HVO. I'm not following your story.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as we were concerned, we
16 didn't care if our patients were military or civilians.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to stop you. That's not my question.
18 My question is why do you call them HVO, or call them civilians, and why
19 do you list them as HVO if you don't know that they are HVO?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because we did not consider them to
21 be members of the Republika Srpska army and yet they came from an area
22 that was controlled by the HVO.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then you call them HVO and then you treat them as
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We called them HVO but we treated
1 them as patients.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You said civilians, not patients.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, for us doctors, doing our
4 job, it's all the same. We don't care if they are civilians or soldiers,
5 I cannot treat civilians and soldiers differently. I mean, medically
6 treat. We had the same approach.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One follow-up. We have Mr. Pejic, we have this
9 list on the screen. When was this list compiled?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This list was done in 1994,
11 I think. We were duty-bound to report, yes, the Ministry of Health and
12 so on.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have answered my question. We see 24
14 entries. You said earlier that there were 150 on the list. Are there
15 more pages?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Definitely, I think so.
17 There are no HVO members on this particular list here.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: My question is answered. Thank you.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I just want to inform
20 Your Honours this document has 19 pages, the first 17 pages is about the
21 wounded person and two last pages about killed persons.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Doctor, let me go back first to the question asked by His Honour
25 Judge Moloto. Were there cases when Croats in military uniforms were
1 brought in, either injured or sick?
2 A. They were brought in by persons wearing military uniforms, not
3 exclusively soldiers but sometimes a -- medical technicians, civilians,
4 would bring them there. Those who worked in the hospital that had been
5 established in Kiseljak but as far as I can remember, no wounded Croatian
6 Defence Council soldiers were brought in in uniform. They were all given
7 medical treatment and because the medical staff in the Kiseljak hospital
8 could not treat them, they would send them on to us but they were in
9 civilian clothes or, rather, they wore the usual hospital gowns.
10 Q. Who made this list and what is it based on?
11 A. The specialist service in the hospital made this list and
12 I signed it. It was based on the protocols, the files that I was talking
13 about at the beginning of this hearing. And this list is available. You
14 can verify it against the protocols at any moment, if the Prosecution
15 wants to do it, they are free to do it of course.
16 Q. We have page 1 of this document in front of us, and I would like
17 you to look at number 6. What is the ethnicity of this person?
18 A. It's Almir Cutina. He is a Muslim or a Bosniak, as we call them
19 now, and at that time he was 17. Well, number 7 again but you didn't ask
20 me about that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, despite the questions put by the Judges
22 which are about consistency in the use of words, there was no dispute
23 about other ethnicities being treated. We then talked about Croats and
24 HVO. But I took it, Ms. Hasan, that you are not claiming that any
25 distinction was made for young Muslim boys or that they would be treated
1 as well at least that you would not dispute if that is the evidence. Now
2 we go again in great detail about the same issue, Mr. Lukic. Let's talk
3 about what is primarily charged and that is not that 16-year-old Muslim
4 boys were not treated in Blazuj. And there is no dispute about the
5 matter. So please consider that carefully. I said we would stop at ten
6 minutes to 2.00, we are close to that point in time. Reconsider your
7 line of questioning, Mr. Lukic, apart from the limited time that is left,
8 if I understood your assessment well.
9 Mr. Pejic, we will adjourn for the day. We would like to see you
10 back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom and I would like to
11 instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way to
12 whomever about your testimony, either given or still to be given.
13 You may follow the usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: There are two issues I would briefly want to
17 address. First, the list which is without translation, that's 1D2827.
18 I think it should be marked for identification pending a translation.
19 You almost need a translation from Latin into English.
20 But, Madam Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D2827 receives number D591,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
24 Then the video MFI'd as D523, I suggested to you, Mr. Lukic, that
25 it would not have to be played. I looked a bit in the history of D523.
1 The Chamber has seen it. So that would not be a reason to play it again.
2 At the same time, of course, you announced at the time when Mr. Batanic
3 testified that it would be identified by Dr. Pejic as -- because you
4 were -- the Prosecution was asking about the source of it. Therefore,
5 I would -- I don't know how long it is exactly, it's relatively short.
6 MR. LUKIC: It's relatively short.
7 MR. IVETIC: Just under two minutes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Just under two minutes. Then I suggest that it can
9 be played but without translation, we don't have to play it twice because
10 the main purpose is to seek confirmation by Dr. Pejic of what was the
11 claim, that it's him and that what he said there is in accordance with
12 the truth and we all have the transcripts.
13 We adjourn for the day and we resume --
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- yes, Mr. Weber.
16 MR. WEBER: -- sorry to interrupt you but Your Honours asked me
17 to report back on the e-mails related to Mr. Nikolic. We have no further
18 follow-up and from our perspective there is no need for further
19 restrictions on his communications.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please pass on the
21 message to the Victims and Witness Section that witness Nikolic is free
22 to communicate with whomever he wants, including the testimony he has
24 We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
25 23rd of July at 9.30 in the morning in this same courtroom, I.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of
3 July, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.