Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24992

 1                           Monday, 1 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

 9     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted to raise a

12     matter.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Only a short thing.  I

14     just spoke with the Prosecution.  We would just ask for an additional

15     20 minutes for direct with this witness, so it would be 50 minutes in

16     total.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is on the record.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we are.  Mr. Milorad Bukva.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bukva.

22             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

23             Meanwhile I use the time to deal with one matter, and it has got

24     to do with Witness Keserovic.  From the 17th to the 19th of June of last

25     year, Witness Keserovic testified before this Chamber as a Prosecution

Page 24993

 1     fact witness.

 2             On the 19th of May of this year, the Defence filed its

 3     Rule 65 ter witness list which included Witness Keserovic.  On the

 4     23rd of May, following inquiries made by the Chamber as to why

 5     Prosecution witnesses were included on a Defence witness list, the

 6     Defence made submissions that it intended to call Witness Keserovic to

 7     provide further testimony.  You can find this at transcript pages 21427

 8     to 21429, and 21586 to 21587.

 9             The Chamber interpreted the Defence's submissions in its witness

10     list and in court as a request to recall the witness for further

11     cross-examination.

12             On the 3rd of June, 2014, the Prosecution responded to the

13     Defence's request not opposing the proposed recall.  However, on the

14     27th of August, the Defence informed the Chamber that it is unlikely that

15     it will want to recall Witness Keserovic and that the Defence is looking

16     for a replacement witness.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber therefore, without prejudice, hereby

19     dismisses the Defence request to recall Witness Keserovic as moot and

20     strikes him from the Defence witness list.

21             Good morning, Mr. Bukva.

22             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It was not very polite to continue with other things

24     when you entered the courtroom.  Apologies for that.

25             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

Page 24994

 1     solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you

 2     to make that solemn declaration.

 3             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We didn't hear any interpretation.  Now

 5     I can imagine, more or less, what the interpretation would have been.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Wrong channel.  We apologise.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we then hear the interpretation

 8     although ...

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth,

10     the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  MILORAD BUKVA

12                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Bukva.  We had a little

14     problem with the translation.  If you would have any problem in hearing

15     in your own language what is said, please draw my attention to that.

16             Mr. Bukva, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

17     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

18             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bukva.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   For the record, will you please tell us your full name.

24        A.   My name is Milorad Bukva.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now pull up in e-court 1D1724.

Page 24995

 1     This is Mr. Bukva's statement.  I also submitted a hard copy of this

 2     statement.  And if the usher would be so kind to hand one to the

 3     Prosecution first for them to ascertain that it's a clean copy.

 4     [In English] I left it with the -- already with them.  So just be shown

 5     to the Prosecution, please.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, you have it both on the screen and on

 7     paper, the first page of this document.  Do you recognise your signature?

 8        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

 9        Q.   Do you recognise the statement before you?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  It is my statement.

11        Q.   Did you provide that statement to the Defence team of Mr. Mladic?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page, now.

14     [In English] We should have -- okay.

15        Q.   We see it also on the screen.  Do you recognise the signature on

16     the last page?

17        A.   Yes.  It's mine.

18        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you

19     answer the same as in the statement?

20        A.   Certainly.

21        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, is this statement accurate and

22     truthful?

23        A.   Yes.  It is accurate and everything in it is correct.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would tender at this moment the

25     statement of Mr. Bukva.

Page 24996

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar,

 2     the number would be?

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1724 will be Exhibit D608.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I would -- I would just read now a summary statement,

 6     with your leave.  Thank you.

 7             As a professional soldier, Milorad Bukva will speak about his

 8     education and military duties he performed.

 9             He will present his observations regarding the inter-ethnic

10     situation in Sarajevo before and after the multiparty elections, about

11     the Muslims organising into paramilitary groups, about the organised

12     criminal attacks on the JNA facilities, personnel and their families, and

13     about the pullout of the JNA units from Sarajevo.

14             Milorad Bukva will testify about the establishing of the

15     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and its composition.  He will present information

16     about the 1st Corps of the Muslim army of B and H and about the forces of

17     that corps in Sarajevo.

18             Milorad Bukva will speak about the constant fire by Muslim forces

19     from all neighbourhoods of Sarajevo, about the sniper fire and sniper

20     nests.  He will also testify about continuous abuse of the Red Cross

21     emblem by the members of the 1st Corps of the ABiH and about the

22     1st Corps opening artillery fire from the hospital perimeter, the health

23     centre, schools, and kindergartens.

24             He will also present information about the camps for Serbs, about

25     the killings and constant abuse of the Serbs, the sexual abuse of Serb

Page 24997

 1     women, their being prevented to leave the city, et cetera.

 2             I don't know if something is wrong, but I'm not receiving English

 3     translation at this spot.  I don't know if everybody else is okay.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's because you are talking in English.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I am, that's right.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe that's why.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Good morning, everybody.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  It's Monday.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Milorad Bukva will also testify as to what the

15     UNPROFOR personnel stated regarding Markale 1 and Markale 2 at the

16     meetings he attended himself.

17             Further, he will testify about General Mladic's comportment

18     towards war prisoners and civilian population and his attitude towards

19     the Serb paramilitaries.  He will speak about General Mladic as a person

20     and a leader.  Mr. Bukva will also present information about the number

21     of family members murdered during World War II and about the Serb mass

22     graves in Dubica and its surroundings, where he comes from.

23             That was the short summary and I will, with your leave,

24     Your Honours, have some questions for Mr. Bukva.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggested.

Page 24998

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2             For that purpose, at the beginning we'll need 1D3629.  It's a map

 3     Mr. Bukva marked in Galic case.  We'll -- we uploaded different map since

 4     this one is not the right one.  So I'll probably have to come back.  I'll

 5     continue and try to solve the problem.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Good morning.  I believe that the correct map has

 9     a different 65 ter number, if I -- I think that it's at 1D3093.  That

10     should be the correct map.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have then -- yes, that's the map we are

12     looking for.  Then we will have to correct Mr. Bukva's statement in

13     paragraph 20.

14             Now in -- just for the record, since Mr. Bukva does not know the

15     numbers, he just knows the map shown to him, then in paragraph 20 instead

16     of "65 ter 1D3629," it should be put "1D3093."  And I want to thank to my

17     learned friend for her help.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But then the witness has a hard copy of his

19     statement with him.

20             Could you look at paragraph 20 of the hard copy and could you

21     look at the map which is on your screen.  And could you tell us whether

22     what you referred to in paragraph 20 is what is marked on this map.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is this map.  But what we

24     see on the screen is only one half of the map.  There is another half.

25             MR. LUKIC:  That's the next page of the same document,

Page 24999

 1     Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  What we have on our screen now is the

 3     first -- no, what we have on our screen now is the second page which is

 4     the city centre of Sarajevo rather than what we saw on page 1 of this

 5     document; page 1 mainly dealing with the western part, including

 6     Dobrinja, of Sarajevo.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  You are right.

 9             So this document has to be understood that the second page is

10     actually the right part of the first page.  They should be connected in

11     that way.  That's the right part then --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Unfortunately we have now twice the --

13             MR. LUKIC:  That's the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  There are we are.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Just for the record and to understand this map

17     that you marked, Mr. Bukva, in the Galic case, would you just tell us

18     what these abbreviations or acronyms mean?  We see KM, for instance.

19        A.   It's the usual sign for the command post of a certain unit.

20        Q.   What is Lpbr?

21        A.   That's the acronym for light infantry brigade.

22        Q.   What is R?

23        A.   R is how I marked locations where weapons and ammunition were

24     manufactured.

25        Q.   What about N?

Page 25000

 1        A.   N is a designation for weapons and ammunitions depots.

 2        Q.   TN?

 3        A.   TN means locations where heavy weaponry was deployed and

 4     concentrated.

 5        Q.   Whose units did you mark on this map?

 6        A.   Enemy units.

 7        Q.   So that we don't go through them one by one, because one whole

 8     day in the Galic case was spent marking this map, only tell us what the

 9     numbers on this map mean; for instance, 142nd Lpbr?

10        A.   That's the establishment name of the unit.  In this case

11     142nd Light Infantry Brigade.  Or this flag in the shape of a square,

12     inside it's written "1.K," it means the 1st Corps.  I should just like to

13     emphasize that these were the chief targets we identified in the area of

14     responsibility of the 1st Corps of the BH Army.  There were many more, of

15     course.  But these were the main ones and the most interesting to our

16     side.

17        Q.   On this map -- for instance, you mentioned 1K, the 1st Corps.  Is

18     that the command or the units of the 1st Corps?

19        A.   That was the command post of the 1st Corps, and in this specific

20     case it is located at the address Danijel Ozma Street number 2, and that

21     was across the street from the building of the Presidency.  The place

22     where the command of the 1st Corps was was a residential building, and

23     its basement was used for the requirements of the command of the

24     1st Corps while the rest of the building was still occupied by local

25     residents, the same people who lived there before the war, civilians.

Page 25001

 1        Q.   Was it normal for the commands of the units of the BH Army to be

 2     placed in civilian facilities?

 3        A.   That was practically a rule.  I would just like to say that two

 4     or three units were located in the prewar barracks of the former JNA.

 5     All the other Muslim units used buildings of a similar type like the one

 6     that was used for the 1st Corps command.  This was something that the

 7     Muslims resorted to often and, like I said, it could be considered a

 8     rule.

 9        Q.   And what were your duties?  Could you please tell us briefly.

10        A.   When the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was formed after a decision of

11     the Assembly of Republika Srpska of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it was

12     called before, on the 12th of May, 1992, I was appointed chief of

13     intelligence and security corps part -- as part of the intelligence and

14     security department of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  And that was my post

15     throughout the entire period, with the formation of the Army of

16     Republika Srpska and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps until the signing of the

17     Dayton Agreement.

18        Q.   And could you please tell us, what were your duties?  What was

19     your organ doing?

20        A.   My department that I led was assigned with gathering information

21     of all kinds, but the focus was information about the armed forces of

22     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  So my department mostly dealt with gathering

23     information about the enemy, about the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24     the so-called armija.  Of course, we gathered different kinds of

25     information, too, about the general situation in the field, about the

Page 25002

 1     relations within the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the morale, the

 2     weapons that the army had, their plans, their objectives, movements,

 3     regrouping of the forces, and all the things that are important from the

 4     security aspect, a high level of security as far as our units were

 5     concerned.

 6        Q.   And this gathering of intelligence, did that also include the

 7     positions of the enemy forces?

 8        A.   Yes, absolutely.  The most complete answer to your question would

 9     precisely be the last thing that I said.  Everything that was important

10     regarding the enemy, everything that was important and that could affect

11     the security of our armed forces and our civilian population that was in

12     the combat zone.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And can you please tell us what the sources of your

14     information were?

15        A.   We used various sources for information.  Most frequently,

16     reconnaissance of enemy communications, then conversations or interviews

17     of people who switched to the other side or who escaped from territories

18     under Muslim control, by monitoring the media, enemy media, by direct

19     reconnaissance on lines of contact, by sending our reconnaissance units

20     into the depth of enemy territory, information coming from settlements.

21     That would be more or less it.

22        Q.   And when you listen to enemy communications, were you able to

23     anticipate enemy actions?  Do you have any examples for that?

24        A.   There are many, many examples of that.  At the

25     Slobodan Princip Seljo barracks, which was a former JNA barracks, we

Page 25003

 1     formed a listening centre by apparatus that we had at hand with just some

 2     professional devices, and we were able to successfully monitor enemy

 3     communications traffic, particularly at the beginning of the war.

 4             And so I can immediately give you an example from the beginning

 5     of the war.  War had not officially broken out yet, but this was an

 6     attack on a JNA column in Dobrovoljacka Street.  I just happened to be

 7     there when Izetbegovic, from Lukavica, where he was brought from the

 8     airport, informed Ganic in a telephone conversation about the plan of the

 9     withdrawal of the command from Bistrik.  And then after that telephone

10     conversation when Ganic --

11        Q.   I'm sorry.  Could you tell us who was supposed to pull out?

12        A.   The command from Bistrik under the command of General Kukanjac.

13             So after that conversation, Izetbegovic and Ganic continued the

14     conversation and chaos broke out in the enemy communications.  We could

15     clearly hear different armed groups calling to each other and openly

16     calling for Osa and Zolja weapons to be brought, everything that they had

17     that was available to them of weaponry.  On the basis of that

18     communication, it was quite clear that the column in Dobrovoljacka Street

19     would be attacked, and this is what did happen.

20             For some eight to ten minutes of that conversation on enemy

21     communications lines, I actually told General Djurdevic [as interpreted]

22     about those eight to ten minutes of communication, and General Gagovic

23     also, who at that time was in Lukavica.  I was disappointed when

24     General Djurdjevac just commented on that by saying, "Bukva, we have

25     guarantees from Mr. Doyle and the UNPROFOR commander that the process of

Page 25004

 1     the pullout of the command from Bistrik would proceed without any

 2     incidents."  Unfortunately, my assumptions turned out to be correct and

 3     there was a massacre that took place in Dobrovoljacka Street.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bukva, could I ask you a question.  The Chamber

 5     has heard some evidence about the events in the Dobrovoljacka Street but

 6     not, as far as I remember, from the preceding communications within the

 7     federation circles.

 8             Now when you listened into this communication, was it -- first,

 9     was it recorded; second, was it transcribed in one way or another?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The audio that I talked about was

11     recorded and it's somewhere in the archives.  I don't know exactly what

12     happened to the recording.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask the parties whether any effort was made

14     to trace such recordings?

15             Because, Mr. Lukic, often when the Prosecution relies on

16     intercepted communications, they often come with audio and

17     transcriptions.  Is there any underlying audio or are there any

18     underlying transcripts or have you searched for them or have you sought

19     the co-operation of the Prosecution to find it?

20             MR. LUKIC:  We did talk with Mr. Bukva about that, and we

21     couldn't locate those intercepts.  But I think that maybe the next

22     question can put a bit more light on this, if --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then I'll wait for that.  But you did not speak

24     with the Prosecution about it?

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, we did not.

Page 25005

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, you said that this should be

 4     somewhere in the archives.  Did this archive remain in Republika Srpska

 5     or did the JNA take it with you when it withdrew to Serbia?

 6        A.   No, the archive is in Republika Srpska.  The last place where I

 7     know it was located was the Vrbas barracks in Banja Luka.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And this communication took place on the same day

 9     that the attack happened; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now I would like to ask you something else.  We will try to get

12     to --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could I nevertheless ask one or two

14     follow-up questions.

15             You said the last place where you know it was located was the

16     Vrbas barracks in Banja Luka.  When was it that you know that it was

17     located there?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was on the 8th of March, 2007,

19     when I was demobilised from the Army of Republika Srpska.  That was the

20     last day of my active military service and the last day that I know that

21     the archive was at the Vrbas barracks in Banja Luka.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do I then understand that, if I could say

23     so, that control over these archives has always been in Republika Srpska

24     hands and not in federation hands?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that is correct.  It was

Page 25006

 1     always in our possession.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Could I ask the Prosecution to try to find out whether any such a

 4     collection of audio is known to it, either in audio or in transcription.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, one follow-up question about this.

 8     Today do you have to ask permission from the Defence Ministry of Bosnia

 9     Herzegovina in order to have access to anything that is located at the

10     Kozara barracks?

11        A.   Yes, that was a rule already when I was still in active military

12     service.  Right after the Ministry of Defence of Bosnia Herzegovina was

13     formed, as well as all the other joint defence organs, everything that

14     had to do with the archives and other military issues was directly in the

15     jurisdiction of the Ministry of Bosnia and Herzegovina, including the

16     archive in this case.  That was also treated in the same way.  As far as

17     I know, these rules are still in force today.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I would briefly like to put some questions to you

19     about the departure of the JNA and the forming of the

20     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  When the JNA left the territory of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina, what did that lead to, their departure from the territory?

22        A.   The departure of the JNA from the territory of Bosnia and

23     Herzegovina was a political decision reached or respected fully by the

24     military leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in an attempt

25     to contribute to a peaceful resolution of the conflict in

Page 25007

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I have to say that the Yugoslav People's Army in the

 2     period before the interethnic conflicts broke out was a significant

 3     factor of stability in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I have proof of that.

 4             At least on two occasions, and perhaps even three, the civilian

 5     population asked to be allowed to go into the barracks where I served,

 6     Slobodan Princip Seljo, in Lukavica, and when they came I spoke to those

 7     people, among whom were Serbs, Muslims, Croats, about their fears which

 8     grew from day-to-day for the simple reason that armed groups of Muslims

 9     began to appear in the Dobrinja settlement.  These groups were headed by

10     well-known Sarajevo criminals, such as Juka Prazina, Musan Topalovic,

11     Caco, Ismet Bajramovic, Celo, and so on and so forth.  And this caused

12     fear among the civilian population, and they sought safety in the

13     compound of the barracks where I was serving.  I repeat:  This happened

14     twice, perhaps even three times.  I don't remember exactly.  This in

15     itself indicates that the people trusted the JNA.

16             The political decision that I referred to led to a situation, a

17     political situation, of complete differentiation along ethnic lines

18     because with the departure of the JNA, the people understood that

19     something that they had faith in until the day before had disappeared,

20     and it was clear that hard times were coming.  So everybody followed the

21     principle:  I'm going to where my people are a majority.  This led to

22     demographic shifts among ethnic lines, and already at that time it was

23     known, this truth was becoming evident among the people, that war in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina was inevitable.

25             I have to emphasize that the greatest disappointment with the

Page 25008

 1     departure of the JNA was felt among the Serbian people, because the Serb

 2     people were traditionally committed to the JNA and they always supported

 3     the army.  The fact that the JNA left the territory created the need to

 4     respond in an adequate manner to Muslim and Croat preparations for what

 5     was about to happen, and the Serb people self-organised, created armed

 6     groups, and then later they formed the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   I'm sorry, we have little time left and a lot to cover.  Could

 8     you just, please, give me briefer answers.  Tell us, briefly, what was

 9     the first time when you met General Ratko Mladic?

10        A.   I don't remember the exact date when I first met

11     General Ratko Mladic, and that's understandable, but I know it was after

12     the decision of Republika Srpska to establish its army and after the

13     departure of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I know that for a fact

14     because I clearly remember the situation when I met General Ratko Mladic.

15     It was in the building of the command of the unit I served in, the

16     351st Communications Regiment, Signals Regiment.  And since I was the

17     only one from that unit left in Lukavica, I met the general in the

18     hallway of that building and suggested to him to occupy the office of my

19     former commander.

20        Q.   Why were you left there alone?  Where were the others from your

21     unit?

22        A.   With the withdrawal of the JNA, my unit, the 351st Signals

23     Regiment of the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, left with all

24     the other troops to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I, as a native

25     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, had expressed my desire to stay there and my

Page 25009

 1     commander did not have a problem with it.

 2             I also have to stress that the Muslims left the Yugoslav People's

 3     Army, I mean officers and non-commissioned officers who are Muslim, took

 4     place after the JNA decided to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Muslim officers

 5     and non-commissioned officers were until that moment part of the JNA and

 6     after that they left the JNA.  Out of an approximate number of

 7     120 officers and NCOs in my unit, approximately two or three of us

 8     remained.  And another noteworthy thing to say in view of certain

 9     misinterpretations concerns the assets that were left behind:  One rifle

10     with one combat set, that's 150 rounds; one pistol; two hand-grenades,

11     and that was it.  All the rest was taken by the unit to the Federal

12     Republic of Yugoslavia --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And one helmet.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If you ask the witness to give short answers

16     focussed on your question, then you should stop him at the point where he

17     moves away from your question rather than to -- it's you who --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, although --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is in control of the --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Bukva covered several next questions.  I wanted

21     to ask about the assets left behind after the withdrawal of JNA.  But

22     thank you.  And --

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, we really have to stream-line this

24     from now on.  So from which units was the Army of Republika Srpska

25     established?  Especially the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

Page 25010

 1        A.   After the departure of the JNA, the VRS was formed of the units

 2     that remained on the ground along territorial lines, and we used them to

 3     form as much as possible the VRS and the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Those

 4     were these troops.

 5        Q.   In your view, when did the Army Republika Srpska become

 6     operative?

 7        A.   It went very slowly because the decision was taken on the

 8     12th of May, 1992.  It took a long time to do that job because it's a

 9     process, a time-consuming one.  But at any rate, at the end of 1992 you

10     could call it an army, an organised army.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I should like to ask you something about the Muslim

12     side now.  Who were the leaders of the Patriotic League?  To whom did the

13     Patriotic League belong?  What kind of information did your service

14     obtain?

15        A.   The Patriotic League was the militant wing of the SDA.  It was

16     the prime mover of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Hardened criminals in

17     Sarajevo were used for that purpose.  It was enough to give them weapons

18     to know that an armed conflict would ensue.  The political leadership of

19     the SDA was fully aware, and it was done with complete awareness.

20        Q.   Did your service gain any information about the existence of

21     prisons in Sarajevo for Serbs?

22        A.   Within the general range of issues that we collected information

23     on, we also had information about these prison locations, but our

24     information was incomplete and many of them remained undetected until the

25     end of the war because some of them were private prisons.

Page 25011

 1        Q.   Since you observed the enemy, tell us if the enemy attacked Serb

 2     positions and how often?

 3        A.   That happened very often.  The Sarajevo theatre of war was known

 4     as one with daily activity, and in these offensive operations it was the

 5     Muslim forces that were active, even during cease-fires.  The intensity

 6     of combat operations did not change even during cease-fires.  Cease-fires

 7     were observed only briefly by the Muslim side and very rarely.

 8        Q.   Did Serbs have an interest in maintaining cease-fires?

 9        A.   Absolutely.  I must stress that the Serbs had never even thought

10     about war before.  Serb people had a very strong desire for a peaceful

11     solution to the Bosnia-Herzegovina issue, and their hope that the war

12     would stop never died because the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, by the end of

13     1943 [as interpreted], was exhausted by combat.  We observed strictly

14     every cease-fire agreement and we had strict orders from the Main Staff

15     of the Army of Republika Srpska to that effect.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's a break time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Lukic, I specifically did not call a break

18     because you are three minutes off from your 50 minutes, so therefore I

19     thought you would finish and then we take a break.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21             We'll then have shortly to go to private session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25012

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 25013

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in open session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Bukva, did your service obtain any information as to whether

 5     Muslim forces used hospitals, schools, et cetera, from which to open

 6     fire?

 7        A.   Yes, we can see it on the map.  There are several locations that

 8     confirm this.  For instance, primary school -- I don't see very well the

 9     name of the school, but one battalion of the 102nd Brigade was in the

10     Pavle Goranin primary school.  We have already discussed the command post

11     of the 1st Corps.  For instance, also at Hrid, there was a battalion of

12     the 115th Infantry Brigade.  Then the weapons workshop at Marin Dvor was

13     located in a machine engineering school.  Or the detachment Djerzelez was

14     located at Dobrinja in a kindergarten.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bukva.  We have no further questions at this

16     moment.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

18             Mr. Bukva, we'll take a break.  After the break, you'll be

19     cross-examined by Ms. MacGregor.  We'd like to see you back in

20     20 minutes.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at 11.00.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

Page 25014

 1     into the courtroom, I would briefly deal with a videolink matter.

 2             On the 27th of August, the Defence has filed a motion to hear the

 3     testimony of a witness via videolink but erroneously gave two dates of

 4     testimony:  First week of September, and the week of the

 5     22nd of September.  The Chamber understands the reference to the first

 6     week of September to be a mistake and considers the request to relate to

 7     the week of the 22nd of September.  And that's the reason why we would

 8     like to confirm with the Defence that this interpretation is correct, and

 9     I saw that you were nodding yes, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, I'm not the most reliable source on this issue.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

12             MR. LUKIC:  And if you allow me to check with my case manager,

13     please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And if our reading is correct in considering the

17     time needed to facilitate such a request, the Chamber would like to ask

18     the Prosecution if it could already indicate when a response can be

19     expected.  We'll hear from you later, Ms. Bibles.

20             Ms. MacGregor, if you're ready to start your cross-examination.

21             Mr. Bukva, you'll be cross-examined by Ms. MacGregor.

22     Ms. MacGregor is counsel for the Prosecution.

23             But before we start, Mr. Lukic had something to tell us.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I forgot, Your Honours, to offer associated exhibits

25     into evidence.

Page 25015

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  First in general terms, any objections against

 4     associated exhibits announced?

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:  No, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll deal with that in a minute, Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But let's not make the witness further wait for us

 9     to deal with administrative matters.  We'll, at the end of this session,

10     deal with the associated exhibits.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

14        Q.   Good morning, Colonel Bukva.  A few preliminaries.  You were --

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   You were a witness for the defence in General Galic's trial at

17     this Tribunal in 2003; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   During that trial you testified for three days; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, on your visit to The Hague this time, can you tell us when

22     you arrived in The Hague?

23        A.   This time I arrived on Tuesday.  I was here at 8.00 in the

24     evening.  Yes.

25        Q.   So today being Monday, you've been here almost a week.

Page 25016

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And did you follow the testimony of the Defence witness who

 3     preceded you, Velimir Dunjic?

 4        A.   Partially, yes.  Partially.  On the internet.

 5        Q.   Did you speak with Mr. Dunjic after his testimony finished?

 6        A.   No, I didn't see him afterwards.  He left.  I don't know when.

 7        Q.   I'm going to move on now to some general questions about the

 8     structure of the SRK intelligence section that you were posted to.

 9     Starting in May 1992, is it correct that you worked in the SRK section

10     for intelligence and security affairs?

11        A.   Yes, it's correct, but it's correct that it wasn't sector,

12     section, but department.  It had two departments:  The security

13     department and the intelligence department, and the chief of the

14     department was one person.  The chief of the security department was at

15     the same time the chief of the security intelligence affairs of the

16     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

17        Q.   Who is the chief that you're now referring to?

18        A.   The chief of the department for security and intelligence affairs

19     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was at that time

20     Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja, and he was the head of that department during

21     the whole war.  So I -- I was the chief of the -- both intelligence and

22     security departments of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and he was my

23     superior along that line of reporting.

24        Q.   I want to make sure that the record doesn't become confused with

25     the word "section," "department," et cetera, especially because it's

Page 25017

 1     possible some of it is lost in translation.  So to be clear,

 2     Colonel Marko Lugonja was the chief of the SRK section for intelligence

 3     and security affairs; is that correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5        Q.   And you worked directly under him as the chief of the

 6     intelligence department at the corps level?

 7        A.   That is correct.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Now, I think you also just said that you were also the chief of

 9     the security department underneath Colonel Lugonja; is that correct?

10        A.   No, no.  I'm going to be completely precise.  The department for

11     security and intelligence affairs of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

12     comprised two entities, two departments:  One for intelligence - and I

13     was the chief of that department; the other one was for security affairs,

14     and the chief of that department was Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja at the

15     time.  But the chief of the security intelligence affairs was the chief

16     of the department of security, Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja.  So do you

17     understand that?  Those -- the chief was Lugonja of those both

18     departments and he was my superior.

19        Q.   Thank you for your clarification.  It may help to explain, if you

20     can answer, as you were the chief of the intelligence affairs, who was

21     the chief of the security affairs also underneath Colonel Lugonja?

22        A.   Lieutenant-Colonel Lugonja was performing two functions.  He was

23     the chief of the intelligence security department and at the same time

24     the chief of the security department.  I was the chief of the

25     intelligence department, and let me just add that I was also his deputy.

Page 25018

 1     In his absence I stood in for him.

 2        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  Did you also have colleagues

 3     Marinko Milidrag and Brane Lubura?

 4        A.   Yes, they were in the department.  I have to say that we lacked

 5     manpower as far as cadre was concerned because we focused on

 6     lower-ranking organisational units to bring them up to full complement.

 7     So besides Marinko and Lubura, we also had Zoran Kos who was in charge of

 8     some administrative affairs.  As for professional duties, we had Lugonja,

 9     he was the chief, there was me, Milidrag, and Lubura.

10        Q.   As a member of the SRK intelligence staff, is it correct that

11     Colonel Lugonja had two chains of command that he was required to report

12     up?

13        A.   No, you couldn't put it that way.  There are no two chains of

14     command.  The department for security and intelligence was an

15     organisational unit of the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, but it

16     was an element by establishment of that command.  And so in the command

17     it was subordinated to the corps command, in the command and disciplinary

18     aspect.  But in the professional aspect, our department was subordinated

19     to the administration -- to the security administration of the Main Staff

20     of Republika Srpska Army.  So the chief of the department was not - let

21     me put it that way - subordinated to the corps commander in the

22     professional sense, I repeat.

23        Q.   I may have confused the question by talking about two chains of

24     command.  To simplify it, on some matters Colonel Lugonja was required to

25     report directly to the SRK corps command, and on other matters he was

Page 25019

 1     required to report directly to the VRS Main Staff intelligence structure;

 2     is that correct?

 3        A.   No.  In the professional sense, Colonel Lugonja reported

 4     exclusively to his superior command along the professional line; i.e.,

 5     the security administration.  But as an organ of command, he could inform

 6     the commander about some things but not to report to him or to submit

 7     reports to him about his work.  He didn't have to do that.

 8        Q.   We'll come back to his reports to the corps commander in a few

 9     minutes.  I want to go to what you've just said about the professional

10     reporting line.  The top of that for Colonel Lugonja, or the next step

11     up, so to speak, would be General Tolimir at the VRS Main Staff; is that

12     correct?

13        A.   No.  His superior was Beara because Beara was the chief of the

14     security administration.  His immediate superior was Beara, but the next

15     superior up the chain was Tolimir, yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You referred to reporting that Colonel Lugonja may

17     have done to the corps commander.  Now, the corps commander during the

18     time you were in the SRK was either General Milosevic or General Galic

19     depending on the date; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct, yes.

21        Q.   And the corps commander held daily morning meetings with his

22     command staff at which different units reported on the activities over

23     the course of the past 12 hours; is that correct?

24        A.   No, I have to correct you in one part.  The morning briefings at

25     the corps commander were attended by the command organs of the corps;

Page 25020

 1     chiefs of the departments, the administrations, and so on.  They were not

 2     attended by commanders of the units, operational units.  Only the organs

 3     of command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 4        Q.   Otherwise my description is accurate?

 5        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 6        Q.   Sure.  The corps commander held daily morning meetings, the staff

 7     that was present was as you just described, and that staff would report

 8     on the activities that had occurred during the past 12 hours; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.  One correction regarding that as well.  At that meeting,

11     the organs of command would first of all be informed about the events

12     over the previous 12 or 24 hours, but these meetings were held in the

13     operations centre and that was an office, a room where all the data from

14     the field would come in over the previous 24 hours.  So at that morning

15     meeting, all the organs of command had the opportunity to receive

16     information about the current situation at the front, and in -- depending

17     on the events or on the overall situation, they could plan their

18     activities and possibly make proposals for some activities of our forces.

19        Q.   Are you saying, at the morning meetings, that the organs of

20     command would both receive the information from their subordinates and

21     report that information to the corps commander?

22        A.   Not submit reports.  They would mostly receive assignments.  I

23     said depending on the situation and reports from the field that all came

24     into the operations centre, the organs of the command, after certain

25     analysis, would receive assignments in terms of planning possible

Page 25021

 1     activities on our part.

 2        Q.   We've spent a lot of time on what is a very simple question and,

 3     in fact, I'll just read to you some of your testimony from Galic so you

 4     can understand the basis of my question.  This is at transcript

 5     page 18366 of your Galic testimony.

 6             "The way that the corps command worked, the commander made it an

 7     obligation to have a morning meeting, and this was an extensive meeting.

 8     Its objective was that the organs of the command learn about the

 9     situation on the front in the previous 12 hours of the previous night."

10             Do you agree with your testimony?  Can you please answer verbally

11     for the record?

12        A.   Yes, that is what I said.

13        Q.   And you often --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, I'm a bit puzzled by page 29,

15     line 14, where you talk about receive the information from their

16     subordinates.  It's not entirely clear to me how in that meeting those

17     present would receive any information from their --

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  I was --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- subordinates.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  I was -- sorry, Mr. President.  I was also

21     unclear in my understanding of the --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you clarify it with the witness --

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yeah --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that would be most appropriate way of proceeding.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  If you can give me one moment to look back at the

Page 25022

 1     source of the question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:

 4        Q.   Colonel Bukva, you answered one of my questions, and this is at

 5     page 29 of the temporary transcript, starting around line 4, you answered

 6     that:

 7             "These meetings were held in the operations centre, and that was

 8     an office, a room where all the data from the field would come in over

 9     the previous 24 hours.  So at that morning meeting, all the organs of

10     command had the opportunity to receive information about the current

11     situation at the front."

12             So my question to you is:  From whom were they receiving the

13     information about the current situation at the front?

14        A.   The information, in the form of regular combat reports, was

15     received from regular units, from the brigades, and these regular daily

16     combat reports would report on the situation at 1700 hours and the

17     situation in the morning.  So the brigade commands, yes, were obliged to

18     submit regular combat reports which were all sent to the operations

19     centre where the duty operations officer of the corps was.  And he, in

20     turn, would report to all the organs of the command about the situation

21     on the basis of reports that he received from the units, from the

22     brigades.  He would compile one report and then would report or inform

23     the organs of the command about the situation in the field.

24             So I hope that I was clear.  This would be done on the basis of

25     reports that were coming in from the brigades, and these -- this

Page 25023

 1     information would be submitted at these morning briefings which were

 2     organised by the commander.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  This clarifies the matter.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   In the absence of Colonel Lugonja, as his deputy you would

 6     sometimes attend these meetings; is that right?

 7        A.   That is correct.  As his deputy, yes.

 8        Q.   In the Galic trial you attended -- you testified that you

 9     attended 20 to 30 per cent of such meetings.  Do you stand by that

10     testimony?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  I do.  That is a percentage that I am sure of, 20 to

12     30 per cent at the most.

13        Q.   I'm going to talk now -- ask a few questions about reports that

14     were drafted by you or also by your colleagues in the intelligence

15     unit -- intelligence department.  Now, these written reports were

16     required to follow a certain form; is that right?

17        A.   Which reports are you thinking of?  Could you please say that

18     again for me?

19        Q.   Intelligence reports.

20        A.   No, they didn't have to be drafted in any specific format.  No.

21        Q.   For example, what would the first item of the report be about

22     often?

23        A.   I cannot answer that question.  I don't understand.  I said that

24     the reports that we were submitting to the superior in the professional

25     sense didn't have any specific kind of form.  I assume that you're

Page 25024

 1     thinking of combat reports that were being sent from the

 2     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to the Main Staff.  If that is your question,

 3     then, yes, I can answer that question.

 4        Q.   No, but I do want to ask you about combat reports.  Am I correct

 5     that you did not create combat reports?

 6        A.   No, you are incorrect.

 7        Q.   One of your duties was to draft combat reports as opposed to

 8     intelligence reports?

 9        A.   No.  Combat reports were drafted by the command and they were

10     signed by the commander.  That's a combat report.  And that report has

11     certain elements.  The first item would be information about the enemy;

12     the second item would be one's own forces and so on and so forth.

13        Q.   I asked if you drafted combat reports.  Based on the answer that

14     you just gave, I understand that you did not.

15        A.   No, no.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Now you've had an opportunity to review this statement in front

19     of you.  You've talked about several documents in that statement.  All of

20     them are combat reports; is that right?

21        A.   Right.

22        Q.   None of them are intelligence reports; is that correct?

23        A.   No, it's not.

24        Q.   Which document in your statement do you discuss that is an

25     intelligence report?

Page 25025

 1        A.   I don't think there are any.  I believe there is only an order to

 2     subordinate units or, rather, subordinate organs.  I'm not sure.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, twice now where the question of the

 4     same structure, that is, a negative, and then to ask confirmation, it

 5     creates a confusion, apparently.  Could you please keep this in mind when

 6     phrasing your next questions.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Moving back to the topic of intelligence reports.  As an

 9     intelligence officer, you were tasked with providing high-quality

10     information about anything that would impact the risk to the corps; is

11     that correct?

12        A.   Correct.

13        Q.   And earlier today when Mr. Lukic asked you about sources, you

14     talked about a number of sources that you consulted, including listening

15     to communications.  Would you also speak to people that had come through

16     from the Muslim-controlled parts of Sarajevo?

17        A.   I did so myself in a number of cases when such talks were of

18     special interest or, rather, when the sources, the people who had crossed

19     over to our territory from the Muslim side, had extremely interesting

20     information that was useful to us.  In such cases when we had an

21     especially interesting source, I would talk to these people and my

22     associates, such as Milidrag Lubura.  But most of such cases were handled

23     by our organs in brigades in the location where the person crossed over

24     to our territory.  For instance, if the person crossed over into the

25     territory covered by the Ilidza Brigade, the case would be handled by our

Page 25026

 1     organ within the Ilidza Brigade.

 2        Q.   This would include Serb civilians or Serb members of the armed

 3     forces who had come over from the Muslim-controlled sides; is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Any person who would come over from the Muslim-controlled

 6     territory, including civilians and Serbs who had been mobilised by force

 7     and managed to escape at some point to territory under our control.  But

 8     it was not only Serbs.  Any person who had managed to leave Sarajevo or,

 9     rather, the part of the Sarajevo that was under Muslim control.  There

10     were convoys that exited Sarajevo legally, such as one that I remember,

11     the convoy of Jews, of the Roma, et cetera.  Only the Serbs did not have

12     the right to leave Sarajevo, so there was no Serb convoy, and it was for

13     understandable reasons because they were used as live -- human shields.

14     And I remember another convoy, a convoy of Macedonians.  Those were the

15     three organised convoys that left Sarajevo.

16        Q.   Earlier today at transcript page 11, this was in your testimony

17     about using various sources for information, you included:

18     "... conversations or interviews of people who switched to the other

19     side."  Can you just clarify -- sorry, it's not in your statement.  It

20     was from your testimony this morning.  Do you need me to repeat the

21     question?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So I'm not referring to your statement.  I'm referring to an

24     answer that you gave this morning.  You were talking about the sources of

25     information and you referred to:  "... conversations or interviews of

Page 25027

 1     people who switched to the other side."  And my question is just what you

 2     are referring to with that phrase, "people that switched to the other

 3     side"?

 4        A.   Maybe that's a little inconsistency, but it's implied that these

 5     people had crossed over to our side.  We're talking about the same thing.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   I could not be possibly interviewing people who had left our side

 8     to the other one.  I could only talk to people who had come over to our

 9     side.

10        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  That does explain it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask for one clarification as well.

12             You said only the Serbs did not have the right to leave Sarajevo.

13     Were the Muslims free to leave Sarajevo as they wished?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no organised departure of

15     Muslims from Sarajevo that I know.  I mean, in convoys.  I don't know why

16     they would leave Sarajevo, but I know that they did leave based on the

17     intelligence we had.  And I have to say that, in doing so, they abused

18     the Sarajevo airport which our forces had turned over to the UN force

19     exclusively for humanitarian needs.  Still, we had information that

20     certain structures in Sarajevo - that is to say, the Muslims - were

21     leaving for third countries using that airport.

22             And another thing --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I stop you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Muslims --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there at this moment.  You apparently

Page 25028

 1     make a distinction between organised departure and non-organised

 2     departure.  When you talk about Muslims abusing the airport, was that

 3     because they had a right to leave or was this unauthorised departure?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to

 5     clarify.  The airport was abused insofar as, at the beginning, the

 6     Muslims were leaving across the runway illegally, and for the most part

 7     these were armed troops, armed Muslim troops.  And again, later, at a

 8     certain point they built the tunnel under the runway with the entrance at

 9     Dobrinja and one exit at Donji Kotorac, and that's the way in which they

10     abused the airport.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I go back to my initial question.  You said

12     Serbs were the only ones who were not allowed to leave.  I take it that

13     you were referring to Serb civilians?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now in general terms, were Muslim civilians free to

16     leave as they wished, apart from at night crossing a runway or in very

17     small numbers, perhaps, using a tunnel, but in general terms were Muslim

18     civilians free to leave?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the answer to that

20     question.  But it is a fact that there was not a single Muslim convoy

21     that left Sarajevo.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you said only the Serbs are not allowed to

23     leave, that's not accurate in the sense that you do not know, as you told

24     us now, whether Muslims were free to leave?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My personal opinion is that --

Page 25029

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- these two issues have nothing in

 3     common.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you about your opinions.  I'm asking

 5     you about facts.

 6             Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:

 8        Q.   Returning to the issues of sources of intelligence.  You had

 9     personnel along the front line who would monitor the activities of the

10     enemy and report to you; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, my subordinates did that.

12        Q.   And you would monitor the media?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, you talked about how it wasn't just Serbs who you would

15     interview for intelligence information.  Did you also speak to non-Serbs

16     that were captured by the VRS?

17        A.   No.  For the most part, if you mean prisoners of war, these talks

18     were conducted by our lower-level organs - that means organs in

19     brigades - because the information in the possession of these persons was

20     of most interest to brigades.

21        Q.   You said before that if a brigade unit subordinate to you came

22     across information that was important, that then you would speak to that

23     person.  So surely it's possible that a captured ABiH soldier would have

24     information that was important from an intelligence perspective; is that

25     not correct?

Page 25030

 1        A.   Maybe I wasn't quite clear.  My section did that work but not me

 2     personally.  I remember one case in particular.  It was -- I can't

 3     remember the name of the person or the brigade.  He was the intelligence

 4     organ in his brigade, and in a state of inebriation he crossed over into

 5     our territory and I interviewed him personally.  That's the only case I

 6     can remember.  I can't remember the name.

 7        Q.   I'll refer you to your testimony --

 8        A.   Later on that man --

 9        Q.   Excuse me.  I'll refer you to your testimony from temporary

10     page 34.  I asked you if you would speak to people that had come through

11     from the Muslim-controlled parts of Sarajevo.  Your answer, at line 34,

12     line 8:

13             "I did so on a number of cases when such talks were of special

14     interest or, rather, when the sources, the people who had crossed over to

15     our territory from the Muslim side, had extremely interesting information

16     that was useful to us.  In such cases when we had an especially

17     interesting source, I would talk to these people and my associates," and

18     then it continues to say most of the cases were handled by organs

19     underneath -- in the brigades where they came in.

20             So I understand you are saying mostly it was handled by the

21     brigades, but you said yourself in a number of cases of special interest

22     you would perform the interviews.  So is that correct?  If you can answer

23     verbally for the record.

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.  But that did not concern only prisoners of

25     war.  I said persons who had come in from the other side.  It could be

Page 25031

 1     civilians, it could be prisoners of war.

 2        Q.   So if at some point --

 3        A.   But I clarified --

 4        Q.   At some point a prisoner of war would have information that would

 5     be of special interest to an intelligence section, is that not true?

 6     Actually, let me rephrase that.  Is it true that a captured POW would

 7     have helpful intelligence information?

 8        A.   Well, that goes without saying.  That's why I said that the

 9     brigades dealt with the bulk of that work.  Why?  Because the POW would

10     be somebody from the vicinity of that brigade and he would have

11     information about the forces facing that brigade, and it's logical that

12     our brigade intelligence officer would conduct the interview, but

13     sometimes somebody in the section would handle the interview.  I just

14     remembered this intelligence officer who wandered off into Grbavica and I

15     talked to him for about ten minutes, seeking information that I was

16     interested in at the time in a room designated for the purpose, not in

17     the -- on the premises of the brigade.

18        Q.   When I ask you a question, if you can try to answer it accurately

19     the first time, because this takes a lot of time.  So, for example --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, you introduced the most recent part

21     of your questioning by referring to prisoners of war.  That caused most

22     of the confusion.  We clearly see that we have information dealt with on

23     the brigade level and by the level on which the witness functioned, and

24     we have prisoners of war and those who crossed over.  This is constantly

25     going through another -- and in your questions, especially the last

Page 25032

 1     series of questions, you started by reference to the prisoners of war.

 2     That creates confusion.  Not to say that the witness was in every respect

 3     always accurate, but apparently he's thinking in two different groups and

 4     two different levels, and an accurate phrasing of the question would have

 5     certainly avoided most of the confusion.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The term "prisoner of war"

 8     actually came first from the witness.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, if I can just try to clarify what your evidence is.

10     I asked you if you spoke to non-Serbs that were captured by the VRS, and

11     your answer was:

12             "No.  For the most part, if you mean prisoners of war, these

13     talks were conducted by our lower-level organs."

14             So you can clarify for me if we're talking about -- let's talk

15     first about prisoners of war.  Did you sometimes conduct interviews of

16     prisoners of war?  If you can answer verbally for the record, please.

17        A.   I've already explained.  Only in one case did I feel the need to

18     interview such a prisoner myself, otherwise no.

19        Q.   Okay.

20        A.   The bulk of that work was done by our brigade organs.

21        Q.   So is there a second category of persons, which I would describe

22     as non-Serbs captured by the VRS, would you consider that to be a

23     separate group from prisoners of war?  For example, civilians.

24        A.   Yes, yes.  Civilians, Serbs and Croats alike.

25        Q.   And Muslims.

Page 25033

 1        A.   No.  Muslim civilians did not cross over to our side.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Here again there is a possible source of confusion.

 3             When you are talking about these civilians - as you said, Serbs

 4     and Croats alike - did you capture them when they crossed over?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can't say that we detained

 6     them, but when they crossed over it would be noticed and logically, since

 7     they were coming from enemy territory, they would be interviewed.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  That's -- that's a clear answer.

 9             Ms. MacGregor, I indeed misspoke.  You started your line of

10     questioning with persons captured --

11             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and then the witness apparently, immediately in

13     his answer, understood people being captured as prisoners of war.  And

14     apparently here now there is a category, again, of people who were

15     interviewed, crossed over, but were not captured and in that sense were

16     no prisoners of war.  And there is another, if I may give you some

17     guidance on another matter as well, it may also be important to make a

18     distinction between those dealt with at the brigade level and those dealt

19     with at the witness's formation level but not necessarily be interviewed

20     by him personally.  That is still a distinction that may create some

21     confusion.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  I think I will probably return to this topic when

24     I have a chance to look over the past few pages of testimony.  I'm going

25     to continue with a new topic before we take the break, if that's okay,

Page 25034

 1     Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's okay.  We have another seven minutes to break

 3     time.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   For the time being we're going to set aside the topic of what

 6     sources you consulted.  I want to refer now to the topics that you were

 7     required to report about.  So is it correct that you would collect

 8     intelligence on, for example, the number of personnel under the ABiH?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  I said any information that was of interest to our

10     units.  Anything that could pose a threat to our troops and civilians was

11     interesting to us, including the strength of the enemy, the weaponry they

12     had, their plans, deployment, movements, regrouping, all these things

13     were directly linked to our interests.

14        Q.   Did this include information about the morale of enemy forces?

15        A.   Combat morale.  We were interested in the combat morale of the

16     enemy army, their willingness to fight.  Because, you see, there were a

17     lot of incidents in their ranks, mutual clashes, internal clashes, and

18     this information was of great importance to us.

19        Q.   You referred to the number of personnel as an example of

20     information that you would collect.  So, for example, if a VRS combat

21     operation resulted in a loss of a significant number of personnel, would

22     that be helpful intelligence to gather?

23        A.   By all means that information would be relevant to our estimates.

24     It would be useful, but it was not of particular interest.  We always

25     received that information as part of our quest for other intelligence.

Page 25035

 1        Q.   Why is it that a loss of a significant number of personnel would

 2     not be particularly interesting from an intelligence perspective?

 3        A.   I didn't say that we were not interested.  I said that

 4     information would be obtained in pursuit of other interests.  It was not

 5     a priority.  It was useful but it was not our primary interest.  Because

 6     there were far more important issues in which we were more interested.

 7     We were, for instance, more interested in how many troops were alive than

 8     dead, for instance, in a brigade that was facing us.  It's much more

 9     important how much personnel, how much able-bodied fighting men they had.

10     It was far more important than finding out their losses.

11        Q.   Surely the amount of personnel alive is directly related to the

12     amount that are killed in action for determining that intelligence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I try to cut this short.  Apparently the issue

14     you want to raise and the issue you are questioned about, Mr. Bukva, is

15     that you are interested in the strength, personnel strength of the

16     troops.  And, of course, if a significant number of the troops would die,

17     then a smaller number would remain but could be completed with others, I

18     take it.  And therefore you're emphasizing that you'd like to know how

19     many troops remained at the end after losses, after completion,

20     et cetera, rather than the exact number of people who had died in an

21     operation.  Is that well understood?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, roughly.  That's a good

23     understanding.  For our purposes, far more important is the information

24     of combat-ready personnel.  The information about losses could be

25     interesting but not necessarily.

Page 25036

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There are a lot of -- Ms. MacGregor, there are a lot

 2     of implied assumptions in there.  That is that if troops -- if a

 3     significant number dies, that you would know in advance how many there

 4     are, so therefore how many remain, and that they would not be completed,

 5     et cetera.  There is a lot of implied assumptions which, I think, the

 6     witness constantly has on its mind and which you have not made explicit

 7     by yourself and that creates perhaps here and there the -- the talk on

 8     not fully understanding each other.

 9             Please proceed.

10             But when I say "please proceed," it is time for a break.

11             Mr. Bukva, if you would follow the usher.  We would like to see

12     you back in 20 minutes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to start with the associated exhibits which

18     I'd forgotten before the break, or at least there was no time left.

19             Mr. Lukic, could you briefly mention the numbers.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's 1D319.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  1D00319 receives, Madam Registrar, number?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D00319 receives D609.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D609 is admitted.

24             Next one, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  1D02969.

Page 25037

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D2969 receives D610.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I noticed that I think our staff -- it was not

 4     easy to get access to the translation.  Is there no translation?  No

 5     translation issue if I understand well.

 6             Next one -- let me see.  D610 is admitted.

 7             Next one, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Next one is 1D02970.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D02970 receives D611.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

12             Next one.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Next one is 1D02971.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  1D02971 receives D612.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

17             And then, I think, the map marked by the witness is the

18     remaining.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  And it's a corrected number.  It's 1D3093.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that receives number?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D03093 receives D613.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D613 is admitted into evidence.

23             As far as the map is concerned, I noticed that in e-court there

24     is no translation, even not for the small portions of text which appear

25     on the map.  Most of it has been properly explained, perhaps not every

Page 25038

 1     single word.  It seems that there is some reference to mortars, for

 2     example, 120-millimetre mortars, which I do not understand because it's

 3     written on a place, could be mobile mortars, could be anything.

 4             But could you please check, Mr. Lukic, together with the

 5     Prosecution, whether you are satisfied with the -- whether both parties

 6     are satisfied with the text and the accessibility of that text to the

 7     parties and therefore to the Bench as well.

 8             Then meanwhile the witness can be escorted into the courtroom.

 9             Two observations.

10             Mr. Lukic, perhaps it's -- there is no need to draw your

11     attention to the fact that the Chamber is always best assisted, if it

12     comes to protective measures, and I have specifically in mind at this

13     moment the request for protective measures of -- oh, I'm sorry.  I -- I

14     would have to move in private session.  I'll do that later today.  I've

15     said nothing, I think, which could -- needs any redaction.

16             Then, Ms. MacGregor, we heard a lot of questions and are all

17     rather general and vague.  If you could come to your point so that we

18     know exactly what the relevance of all of it is, apart from knowing the

19     structure.  Of course, knowing the structure is not unimportant but

20     it's -- we would like to see you to come to your point as soon as

21     possible.

22             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             If, while we're waiting for the witness, we could have

24     Exhibit P4900 come up, that may save some time, and we'll be looking

25     first at the fist pages in both versions.

Page 25039

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, you previously asked when we would have

 3     a response to the videolink.  We'll have that filed no later than

 4     tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's appreciated.

 6             The same, by the way, Mr. Lukic, is true for the

 7     examination-in-chief.  Vague and general statements, answers such as:

 8     The Serbs never thought about the war.  I mean, that's -- that's not easy

 9     to test that or perhaps very easy to test that, I do not know, but it's

10     not of great assistance to the Chamber to have these general

11     statements --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- rather than concrete matters which, of course,

14     the Chamber is primarily interested in.

15             MR. LUKIC:  I -- as I remember, I just asked about cease-fires

16     and the witness added this.  So it was not part of my question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But statements like:  Most of the cease-fires

18     were violated by, then I think the Chamber would very much appreciate to

19     have one cease-fire violated so that it can be tested by the other party

20     as well, whether it really -- whether the perception of the witness of

21     such a violation is accurate and -- rather than general sweeping

22     statements about violation of cease-fires.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             MR. LUKIC:  I think that in these documents we can find --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

Page 25040

 1             MR. LUKIC:  -- cease-fires that are not followed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And according to the statements, it's the other side

 4     to be blamed for.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  Okay.  Then we reached, then, a more concrete

 6     level.

 7             Ms. MacGregor, please proceed.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Colonel Bukva, if you see on the screen in front of you, on the

10     left side of the screen in the B/C/S language, do you see the rules of

11     service for military security organs.  And do you recognise this

12     document?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Does this document outline the rules for the work of your unit?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please turn to page, in the English,

17     13, in the B/C/S, 11.

18        Q.   We're going to look now at chapter 3, paragraph 29.  In this

19     paragraph there is a reference to security organs conducting

20     counter-intelligence evaluation.  Can you please tell the Chamber what is

21     meant by "counter-intelligence evaluation"?

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I don't see "counter-intelligence" in

23     paragraph 29, unless there is a part of it I don't see.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Sorry.  You're right.  It's paragraph 27, a

25     little bit further up on the English and hopefully on the same -- it may

Page 25041

 1     need to go -- yeah.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should repeat your question.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:

 4        Q.   Colonel Bukva, do you see the reference to "counter-intelligence

 5     evaluation" that we're discussing?  I see that you're nodding.  Can you

 6     just explain what your understanding of --

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   What's your understanding of that term?

 9        A.   Counter-intelligence evaluation is a thought process in the work

10     of the intelligence and security organs.  It's one of the tasks of the

11     security organs.  It's done on the basis of gathered intelligence data,

12     and its objective is, on the basis of the evaluation of the intelligence,

13     to propose measures that lead to the prevention of intelligence threats

14     to one's own forces.  So a counter-intelligence evaluation could be in

15     the form of a document, but actually it's a continuing, ongoing thought

16     process of intelligence organs that alters depending on the situation in

17     the field.  If I have been clear.

18             The security organ at any point in time must have a proposal for

19     solutions for a specific situation in keeping with the intelligence that

20     is available to it on the basis of its intelligence work.

21        Q.   Is counter-intelligence evaluation a thought process that you

22     applied in your intelligence gathering -- one of the thought processes

23     that you applied?

24        A.   No, no.  It states here clearly that security organs --

25     intelligence organs, that's a different category.  These are two separate

Page 25042

 1     organs that in principle function for the same objectives.  Security

 2     organs, on the basis of intelligence data that we prepare for them and

 3     other information available to us, conduct this process of

 4     counter-intelligence evaluation and propose to the command organs

 5     prevention measures.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  We can take this document from the screen.

 8        Q.   Colonel Bukva, I'm now going to turn to your evidence about the

 9     locations of ABiH and VRS forces in Sarajevo during the war.  In

10     paragraph 18 of your statement, you discuss specifics about the personnel

11     strength of the ABiH, and you state that the ABiH had 38.000 armed

12     soldiers in Sarajevo.

13             Now, you testified in the Galic trial that the ABiH had 35.000 to

14     38.000 armed men.  Is your Galic testimony accurate?

15        A.   Yes, correct, on the basis of information that was available to

16     us at the time.  This figure corresponded to the actual figures, the

17     number of men under -- carrying weapons in Sarajevo.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

19     number.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:

21        Q.   Can you repeat the number -- can you please repeat the number you

22     just provided in your last answer?

23        A.   I said based on information that we had at the time, the number

24     over the four-year period varied, but it ranged from 35.000 to 38.000

25     armed soldiers in Sarajevo.

Page 25043

 1        Q.   You testified in the Galic trial, and this is at transcript

 2     18364, lines 4 through 11, I'm going to read an excerpt from that

 3     testimony.

 4             "I said at the beginning that in the city itself there were about

 5     38.000 armed troops.  Out of that there were 30.300 or, let's say, 31.000

 6     were in the BH Army units -- were part of the BH Army units.  And several

 7     special units, special MUP units also existed in Sarajevo, in the part of

 8     the Sarajevo under Muslim control.  We assessed that these troops

 9     amounted to the strength of one brigade."

10             Is it correct that approximately of the 35- to 38.000 that you've

11     referred to, is it correct that 31.000 were in fact in the ABiH?

12        A.   Again, I say that the number varied.  In any event, according to

13     our estimate, it -- our estimate was what I just referred to, and we

14     operated on the basis of the assumption that these figures were accurate

15     figures.

16        Q.   Were between 4- and 7.000 of those personnel in fact members of

17     special MUP units?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   If you could please take a look at paragraph 23 of your

20     statement.  Now, the second sentence of this statement -- excuse me, this

21     paragraph, you talk about the location of the command post of the

22     105th Light Infantry Brigade at Bistrik.

23        A.   Yes.  Yes.

24        Q.   Now, if you look at paragraph 24 you -- in the third sentence of

25     that paragraph, you talk about the position of the 115th Brigade

Page 25044

 1     positioned at Bistrik.  So I just wanted to clarify with you:  Are both

 2     of these references correct or should they both be referring to the

 3     115th Light Brigade?

 4        A.   Right.  Actually, the command posts of both of these brigades

 5     were at Bistrik, the 105th and the 115th Brigade.  At Bistrik, that was

 6     the higher command of the 4th Corps -- actually, that was the location of

 7     the former 4th JNA Corps command.

 8        Q.   In a moment we'll have an opportunity to look at the map that you

 9     marked in the Galic trial and then we'll return to this topic.  Now, in

10     paragraph 21 of your statement you state that the ABiH had heavy weaponry

11     positioned at Zlatiste.  Now, Zlatiste was actually held by the VRS,

12     wasn't it?

13        A.   No, no.

14        Q.   When you refer to Zlatiste, can you just describe where that is

15     in Sarajevo?

16        A.   That is - how can I explain it to you? - it's at Mount Trebevic

17     below -- in any event, it's a location at Trebevic, let's say, roughly

18     above -- above Skenderija.  Perhaps a better orientation point would be

19     the Olympic venue.  I think that the Olympic venue for the bob-trail was

20     below it.  So Zlatiste is there --

21        Q.   Let's look at --

22        A.   -- near that Olympic bob-trail.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we could look at D613, page 2 of that exhibit.

24        Q.   This is the map that you marked in the Galic case.  We're going

25     to look at the east side of Sarajevo on this map.  And if you like, we

Page 25045

 1     can just have one page up on the screen so that it's bigger, the east

 2     side of the map.  Page 2.  Okay.

 3             So, sir, if I can direct your attention slightly to the right

 4     middle are the words in red "Stari Grad."  Now, I see the word "Zlatiste"

 5     to the south-west of Stari Grad.  Do you see where I'm referring to?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we enlarge it a bit further for the

 7     witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But then including the word "Zlatiste," I would

 9     suggest.  That is further down.  Could we zoom out again.  Could we move

10     to the lower part of the map.

11             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I also have a hard copy that I

12     could provide to the witness if that would --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think at this moment we can clearly see it

14     on the screen.

15             Witness, do you see the words "Zlatiste" which seems to be below

16     the yellow road lowest on the map, which may well be the Pale-Lukavica

17     road?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do see it.  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please -- please proceed.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:

21        Q.   And is the location on this map consistent with your

22     recollection?

23        A.   Could you please reformulate the question?  What do you mean,

24     "according to your recollection"?

25        Q.   Does this map seem accurate to you?

Page 25046

 1        A.   Yes, this is a map of the Sarajevo city.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can zoom out again and, in fact, show both

 3     sides of the map, east and west.  I'm also going to ask if the court

 4     usher can provide this hard copy of the map to the witness.  It may

 5     assist when we're looking at multiple places at the same time.

 6             I do have one hard, colour copy as well extra if it would assist

 7     the Bench.

 8        Q.   Sir, if you look at Zlatiste on the map that you marked in the

 9     Galic case, you see that you have not marked at Zlatiste the

10     112th Vitez Motorised Brigade.  In fact, you've marked the 112th Vitez

11     Motorised Brigade on page 1 of the map.

12        A.   Yes, that is the Boljakov Potok sector.  Boljakov Potok.  There

13     is one thing that is creating confusion here.  According to what I know,

14     one area in this section has a similar name, Zlatiste or something like

15     that.  In any event, what is being discussed here is this area here, not

16     Zlatiste in any case because at that point Zlatiste was on our side.  We

17     were controlling the area that was on this side of the road.  So this is

18     an inconsistency here, because the location that I am speaking of is the

19     one that is marked.  So in terms of the name, geographically,

20     Boljakov Potok is where I indicated the heavy weaponry of the

21     112th Vitez Brigade is there.  There is a location that has a similar

22     name, so it's possible that there is some confusion here because of that.

23     So it is not in the area that we're looking at here on this side, the

24     area with the name of Zlatiste.

25        Q.   I think now that the matter has been clarified on the record,

Page 25047

 1     that there are two places that have the name Zlatiste.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please look --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Same or similar.  Or similar.  And

 4     that's how it's been recorded in the transcript, as Zlatiste.  It could

 5     be that but it could be similar.  I mean, it's been a long time since

 6     then, so I cannot remember the precise name.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:

 8        Q.   On the eastern side of the map --

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  And for e-court, we can just look at the eastern

10     side for this question so it will be bigger.

11        Q.   If you focus on approximately the centre of the map to the right,

12     you'll see where you've marked the 115th Brigade.  There is what looks to

13     me two places where you marked the number 115.  Do you see those

14     locations?  It's blown up as well on this --

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Do you see that --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- between those numbers, 115 and 115, on the map the area of

19     Bistrik is marked?  Do you see that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now looking over to your left and up a bit, we see a flag with

22     the number 105 in it.  Now, I return again to my question about the

23     location of the 105th versus the 115th.  From this map they do not appear

24     to both be in Bistrik, but what is your testimony about their location?

25        A.   The point is the command of this brigade was in Bistrik, but the

Page 25048

 1     whole unit was based in this installation marked by a flag inside which

 2     "105 Pbr" is written.  That's where the whole unit -- the actual unit

 3     was.  But the command post was in Bistrik.

 4        Q.   The command post of which brigade was in Bistrik?

 5        A.   The 105th Brigade.  Its command post was in Bistrik.  But this is

 6     an inconsistency.  The place marked by the flag marks the location of the

 7     unit, the whole unit.

 8        Q.   So you have not marked the location of the 105th Brigade command

 9     post on this map; is that correct?

10        A.   You noticed that well.  It's an inconsistency, indeed.  But the

11     information is correct.  The flag should have been in Bistrik.  Instead,

12     I marked the actual place of deployment of the unit.  I made a mistake.

13     This is not the command post but the unit, whereas the command post was

14     in Bistrik together with the 115th Brigade.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask the witness one clarification.

17             We see these little flags in the map.  Sometimes at the bottom of

18     the flag there is a small triangle, sometimes there is a small circle.

19     Could you tell us first what a flag with a small triangle stands for?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I almost have forgotten these

21     topographic designations and how units should be marked.  The triangle

22     with a flag that is rhomboid is a designation for a brigade.  A circle

23     with a triangular flag marks a battalion, I believe.  The command post of

24     a battalion.  For instance, the triangular flag in a circle is a

25     battalion command.

Page 25049

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you then explain to us.  You see the

 2     lowest marking in the map with a text attached to it, which seems to

 3     refer to a school, see you -- do see that?  It's just above the word

 4     "Stari Grad" at this moment at the very lower part of the map.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stari Grad, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's at Hrid.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Just above that.  Do you see handwritten text?  Two

 9     words, the second apparently being "skola"?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is a primary school.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now, there is a line between that text to a

14     flag which is just above it with a circle at the bottom and then a

15     triangular flag above it.  Could you tell us exactly what that indicates?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Inside the flag we see "1/115."

17     That's the 1st Battalion of the 115th Brigade.  It was deployed in a

18     primary school in a part of town called Hrid.  1 means the 1st Battalion,

19     slash 115, meaning from the 115th Brigade.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that explanation.  May I seek one more

21     clarification to better understand how certain items are referred to.  Do

22     you see -- in the centre of this map, do you see "GS KM" in a square box?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.  It says "GS" --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] Is that -- what does GS stand

25     for?

Page 25050

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a rectangular flag with a

 2     line -- two lines inside.  GS means Main Staff of the Army of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And below that, we see KM and that was the command

 4     post of the Main Staff of the BH Army, and it was inside the building of

 5     the Presidency of the BH.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now I -- it seems that there is a line between

 7     the bottom of this rectangular flag to a triangle which is a little bit

 8     further to the left, just left below where it reads "100-112," do you see

 9     that little triangle?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  What does that triangle stand for?  Is that the --

12     how is that linked to any of the text in flags?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They are linked by this line.  This

14     triangle is part of the flag.  But to make the picture more

15     understandable, that's how we draw the sign.  Whereas the triangle --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that the triangle indicates

17     the location where the Main Staff was situated and that is depicted by a

18     line with a -- linking this square flag to that little triangle.

19             My last question is:  The 100-112 reference stands for what?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see a triangular flag here and

21     inside it -- and in its base is a circle.  Next to it we read "KM."  This

22     is not "100," it's "IDO," that means reconnaissance sabotage detachment,

23     slash 112, that's the number of the brigade from which this detachment

24     came.  So this is a command post and the unit was deployed in the same

25     place.  Daniel Ozma Street number 7, I believe.  That's where this

Page 25051

 1     reconnaissance sabotage detachment of the 112th Brigade was deployed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered my questions.

 3             Mr. Lukic, this is exactly the type of information which one

 4     would expect in a legend, or perhaps you could agree on the basis of the

 5     evidence of the witness what the legend would be for this map and the

 6     translation for it.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             If we can please have in e-court 08282B, as in boy.  Also, if I

10     could ask the court usher to bring the hard copy of the map and place it

11     on the easel.

12             Your Honours, this map is very difficult to see in e-court.  I've

13     made colour copies for each of you and also for the Defence.

14     Unfortunately, the very best copy is the copy that the witness will be

15     looking at.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record the document is

17     Exhibit P2952.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Colonel Bukva, the map that's being placed next to you is a map

20     of the ABiH.  It's dated 15 March 1995.  I'm going to be asking you to

21     look at that map and to compare something with the map that you marked in

22     the Galic trial.  So in a moment I'll ask you to get up and have a look

23     at the map.  I'll remind you that while you're pointing at the map and

24     far away from the microphone, it will be hard to record your answers so

25     if you can wait a moment before you head over there so I can explain to

Page 25052

 1     you what we'll be looking at.

 2             Okay.  Do you see on the right-hand side of the map that there

 3     are numbers marking the grids?  At this point you can just nod if you

 4     want to let me know that you understand.  On the very right-hand side of

 5     the map there is handwritten numbers.

 6        A.   You mean these numbers?

 7        Q.   Correct.  And there are similar numbers along the bottom of the

 8     grid -- excuse me, along the bottom of the map.  Do you see those

 9     numbers?  I see that you're pointing to them?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness was first pointing to the numbers 52 to

11     62 at the right-hand side of the map, and then later to the numbers at

12     the bottom ranging from 23 to 40.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:

15        Q.   I'm going to ask you to look on that map where the 102nd Brigade

16     is marked, and I'll give you some guidance.  If you look at the grid

17     between -- I'll start on the right-hand side, it's between 56 and 55, at

18     that particular row.  And then if you go over to the left, looking along

19     the bottom, between numbers 26 and 27.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I have circled in red on the hard

21     copies that you have the flag that I'm going to be asking the witness

22     about, and also for the Defence.

23        Q.   Colonel Bukva, do you see there in that square a flag with the

24     marking -- excuse me, with the number 102?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 25053

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now keeping your eye on that to orient us, two grid

 2     squares to the right are four oval shapes that mark the neighbourhood of

 3     Alipasino Polje.  Are you able to locate that neighbourhood?  It's in the

 4     same row between bottom map grid numbers 28 and 29.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I can confirm that the witness was pointing with

 6     his pointer directly to these four ovals.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  And I see that the witness is also nodding.

 8        Q.   If you -- you can have a seat again so that you can look at your

 9     own map.

10             Now, I'm going to ask you on your own map, on page 1 of that map,

11     to look at where you've marked the 102nd Brigade.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  In e-court if we can please have D613, page 1.

13     It's approximately in the middle of that page.  Okay.  That perspective

14     is good.

15        Q.   Witness, do you see, either on the screen or in the hard copy in

16     front of you, where you've marked the 102nd?

17        A.   Yes, I see that.

18        Q.   Now, if you again look for the neighbourhood of Alipasino Polje,

19     you'll see that you've marked the 102nd Brigade almost directly above

20     that neighbourhood.  Do you agree with that description?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So you've marked it much further west -- excuse me, much further

23     east on your map than the marking on the ABiH map of this same brigade;

24     is that correct?

25        A.   The command post of the 102nd Infantry Brigade, according to our

Page 25054

 1     information, was in the wire factory at Alipasin Bridge.  You can see

 2     here Alipasin Most, bridge.  This is -- could I look again at your map?

 3     The command of the BH Army.  There is a difference but I still maintain

 4     that this information -- this data is from 1995; right?

 5        Q.   According on the date on the map, yes.

 6        A.   This is certainly the data that we had.  At that moment it was

 7     correct.  Especially because right next to the command post of the

 8     102nd Brigade was an ammunition plant.  It's possible it moved for

 9     security reasons.  It happened during the war, command posts were

10     relocated because there was always a danger they would be detected and

11     exposed to artillery and other fire.

12        Q.   Could I --

13        A.   According to this, according to their map, their MAD, mixed

14     artillery battalion, was in this location, if you look at the map that I

15     drew.  So it's possible that this command post moved to what was earlier

16     the command post of their mixed artillery battalion.

17        Q.   I believe you're referring to the MAD that you marked on your map

18     on the -- is that correct?  The one that is slightly to the left and

19     above the 102 --

20        A.   Yes.  Yes.

21        Q.   But even that flag where it says "MAD" is still significantly

22     further east than the location marked 102 on the ABiH map; correct?

23        A.   I repeat:  For the reasons I described, it's possible they

24     changed the location of their command post.  It wouldn't be unusual.  But

25     for us, the location of the wire factory at Alipasin Bridge was the

Page 25055

 1     identified command post of the 102nd Brigade at that time.

 2        Q.   Okay.  You've referenced just now that at times command posts

 3     would relocate or reorganise because of strategic advantages or other

 4     reasons.  Is it correct that intelligence on where enemy forces were

 5     located is specifically relevant only when you know the certain date of

 6     that intelligence?  And I'm not sure if I've asked that in a confusing

 7     way.

 8             Let me ask it this way:  If I asked you where something was

 9     located, is it correct that your answer might change depending on what

10     date I was asking about?

11        A.   You're right.  It's a variable, and movements on the front line

12     are a regular occurrence.  For instance, if we had some artillery in one

13     firing positions and the situation requires that they be moved, our prior

14     information would no longer be correct.  Units move and positions move.

15     All elements of a combat disposition are in a certain juxtaposition at

16     one moment and in a different juxtaposition at a different moment.  The

17     brigade would redeploy its units and move them from one theatre of war to

18     another, from one part of the front line to another.

19        Q.   So in your statement --

20        A.   That's why this is a complex matter.  It has to be followed

21     constantly.

22        Q.   So in your statement in paragraphs 20 through 27, you describe

23     very specific locations of ABiH forces and weaponry, but you don't

24     include any dates as to what -- as to when this intelligence would be

25     accurate.  So as you've described it in your statement, it's difficult to

Page 25056

 1     verify where things are located without a date; is that correct?

 2        A.   No, that's not correct.  This data relates to the period when the

 3     corps was under the command of General Galic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But that still is quite a period of time, isn't it?

 5     If you say they move from one place to another, that could have been done

 6     during the tenure of General Galic as well.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  [Microphone not activated] As I understand it,

10     the map -- the ABiH map is already in evidence --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.  As I understand it, the ABiH map is

13     already in evidence, so I won't be moving that into evidence.  Okay.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  There is one issue, Ms. MacGregor.  You gave us a

15     marked version to look at and I take it that the copy in evidence is not

16     the marked version.  Therefore, it's important that we know exactly what

17     you marked for us and what we looked at, which is, I would say, one of

18     the few clear flags on that map.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  Correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And perhaps it would be best if you enlarge the

21     relevant portion, including the Alipasino Polje area, and tender that

22     into evidence so that it's later possible to know what we looked at and

23     what we compared as far as positions are concerned.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There is a suggestion that you tender again the same

Page 25057

 1     map with your marking and on -- at page 2, an extract of that map which

 2     more clearly indicates exactly where that marking is in relation to the

 3     surrounding -- surrounding buildings and streets, et cetera.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  And if it's all right with the Chamber, I'll work

 5     on that --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- on a break and get back to you.  I think

 8     unfortunately when it's zoomed in on e-court, it is very, very difficult

 9     to see.  So I think Judge Fluegge's --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I did that, and it certainly gives a better

11     indication than just without.  At least it's clear where the flag is.

12     It's also clear where Alipasino Polje is, so it gives a better

13     opportunity to get an impression of where that flag exactly is located.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  If Your Honours have an opportunity to look at

15     the hard copy, it actually is incredibly much easier to see everything on

16     that map than -- than you would guess from the e-court version.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I tend to disagree, but we have them both.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam MacGregor, if I might just ask a question.

19     Am I correct to say that in fact that flag we are talking about you

20     associate with the 102nd Light Brigade, and I thought you said that 102

21     is -- can be seen on the map here, and I would like you to show it to me

22     if you can, please.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  If you give me a moment just to review your

24     question, Your Honour.

25             The 102nd can be seen on the large map in the location -- the

Page 25058

 1     large ABiH map in the location where I've placed a red circle on the hard

 2     copy which I've provided to the Chamber.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But I think what --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What just -- can we see there, is there an

 6     indication of 102?  Can we read something that makes that flag or is

 7     it --

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  On the hard map next to the witness, yes, you

 9     can.  On the version that you have, I certainly can't read "102" in

10     there.  I don't know --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Our eyes may be --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's just below the flag itself, a little bit

13     to the right.  Is that correct?

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  I actually think it's inside the triangle of the

15     flag, Your Honour.  It's --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You can't see anything on the hard copy.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's exactly why we have difficulties.  Could we

18     again have Exhibit - what was it? - 2959 -- 2952 on our screens.  And

19     could we enlarge on where the flag appears.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, further down.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Much further.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Much further down.  To the left.  To the left.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Where now can we --

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  A little --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- see the --

Page 25059

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  A little north-west of centre.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I see where it is, but I would like to read the

 3     "102" somewhere.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  Again, it's inside the flag.  At this level you

 5     won't be able to see it.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And --

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  It is on the hard copy of the map.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you explain, Ms. MacGregor, the number below

 9     the flag, a little bit to the right?

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honour, I --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One -- one second, please.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break now, and the Chamber would like to

16     have an opportunity to look at the map which is in the courtroom at this

17     moment so as to know for sure whether we really -- we find 102 just --

18     what seems to us to be just below the flag rather than in the flag

19     itself.  We would like to have an opportunity to do that.  But we first

20     invite the witness to follow the usher and be back with us in 20 minutes

21     from now.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, but most likely the Chamber will

24     first have a look at the map but does that --

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 25060

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If we leave the courtroom, if then we would

 2     find an empty courtroom in two or three minutes after that, then we have

 3     a look at the map.  And we resume at quarter to 2.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We briefly move into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 25061

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, needless to say that in addition to what I said

 2     in private session, of course, the Chamber always gives an opportunity to

 3     further explore any reasons for any such request and only decides after

 4     it has heard all that.

 5             Then the witness can be escorted into the courtroom.

 6             Meanwhile, I put on the record that the Chamber during the break

 7     had a look at the map which is now in the courtroom and which we have

 8     looked at under number P2952.  And on the original from which the -- from

 9     which the e-court version is scanned, it is clear that the flag the

10     Prosecution has drawn our attention to, in the flag itself the numbers

11     102 are clearly visible, whereas immediately below the flag, at the

12     bottom of the flag, there is a clear reference to the

13     102nd Light Infantry Brigade.  I put that hereby on the record.  If the

14     parties would disagree on it, the Chamber would like to know that without

15     delay.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And as the suggestion or at least a request to

18     upload an extract of the map so that we know exactly what flag you have

19     drawn our attention to, because there are more flags on that map, is

20     still standing.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.  And we won't be using the map

24     anymore.  I don't know if it needs to remain on the easel or not.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We can leave it where it is --

Page 25062

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at this moment.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can please have Prosecution Exhibit P4900 in

 4     e-court; specifically, page 21 of the English version and page 17 of the

 5     B/C/S version.

 6        Q.   While we wait for that to come to the screen, Colonel Bukva, I'm

 7     again going to show you the document that we looked at before, the rules

 8     of service for military security organs.  We're going to focus on

 9     chapter 5, a few paragraphs in this chapter.  And the title of the

10     chapter 5, as you see hopefully on your screen now, is:  "The Operational

11     Procedure of Security Organs in Criminal Procedure."  I draw your

12     attention to paragraph 52.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  It may help to enlarge the B/C/S left-hand side

14     of the screen.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, I read from paragraph 52:

16             "When there are reasonable grounds to suspect that a crime within

17     a security organ's competence has been committed ..."

18             Now stopping there, can you explain for the Chamber what types of

19     crime would fall under a security organ's competence as referred to here?

20        A.   Perhaps I won't remember all of them that are listed in that law,

21     but first of all, I just need to remind you that these rules of the

22     security service applied to peacetime conditions and it was taken over

23     from the former JNA.  In the rules of the procedure of the JNA, it is

24     stated, among other things, that crimes - and here we're talking about

25     crimes committed against the armed forces - are those crimes which

Page 25063

 1     jeopardise the security -- the personal security and the property of the

 2     armed forces.

 3             To be clear, once again, I have read the whole paragraph, what is

 4     being discussed here are crimes that are perpetrated against members of

 5     the armed forces.

 6        Q.   You've said -- you said these rules were the rules of the former

 7     JNA, and is -- is it correct that the VRS, for the most part, adopted

 8     these rules?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.  Like I said, this rule was taken from the JNA.  And it

10     applied to peacetime conditions.  Since Republika Srpska never proclaimed

11     a state of war, we operated according to the peacetime rules.  So this

12     article was in force in the VRS.

13        Q.   And it was in force during the years of the war, even though

14     technically the VRS had not declared a war.  Is my understanding correct?

15        A.   Republika Srpska never declared a state of war, not the VRS.  The

16     assembly is the one that declares a state of war as the supreme organ of

17     power.  Since this did not happen in Republika Srpska, then the

18     Army of Republika Srpska operated according to peacetime rules, and the

19     security services, accordingly, operated to this rule which had been

20     inherited from the JNA.

21        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  Continuing with paragraph 52

22     where we left off:

23             "... authorised officers of the security organ are obliged the

24     take necessary measures to ensure that the perpetrator of a crime is

25     found, that the perpetrator or accomplice does not go into hiding or

Page 25064

 1     escape, that traces of the crime and objects that may serve as evidence

 2     are discovered and secured, and also that all information that may be of

 3     use for the successful pursuit of criminal proceedings is gathered."

 4             Is that description consistent with your understanding of your

 5     obligations during your time at the SRK intelligence department?

 6        A.   Here we're talking about the obligations of the security organs,

 7     and this is a completely different area which doesn't have anything in

 8     common with the intelligence organs.  So this paragraph does not refer to

 9     intelligence organs.  And in the heading of the chapter it states:  "The

10     Operational Procedure of Security Organs in Criminal Procedure."  So they

11     did have some duties in relation to investigative procedures, but

12     intelligence organs did not do any such jobs.

13        Q.   So you were not required to, for example, ensure that

14     necessary -- excuse me, to take necessary measures to ensure that a

15     perpetrator of a crime is found?

16        A.   That does not -- that is not stated in the law.  The law did not

17     oblige us to do that, no.

18        Q.   Your focused on the use of the word "security" -- excuse me, the

19     phrase "security organs" at the top of the chapter.  I'd like to look a

20     little bit more into how this manual defines that term so that we can

21     better understand it.

22             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please look at paragraph 2.  This is

23     both e-court and English -- excuse me, both English and B/C/S e-court

24     page 6.

25        Q.   We're going to look now at a chapter that's called:  "Competence

Page 25065

 1     and Tasks of Security Organs."  Would you agree with me this, again, only

 2     refers to security organs and not to intelligence organs?

 3        A.   That is correct.  I agree.

 4        Q.   If you look at paragraph 2, there is a reference to detecting and

 5     preventing activities aimed against the armed forces and the preparations

 6     of the armed forces for the country's defence.  Now, your job was to

 7     detect information that would put the SRK at risk; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please look at paragraph 6(b).  It's on

10     the same page in the B/C/S but on the next page on the English.

11        Q.   I'll read again:

12             "Security organs are responsible for the detection, tracking, and

13     prevention of hostile activities by individuals, groups, or organisations

14     against the armed forces and members of the armed forces ..."

15             Now, would you agree that your job included the detection,

16     tracking, and prevention of those hostile activities?

17        A.   What is written in the paragraph refers to counter-intelligence

18     activities which are conducted by the security organs and organs of the

19     military police.  So these are counter-intelligence activities whose

20     purpose is to prevent the endangerment of units of the JNA or, in this

21     case, units of the VRS.  This --

22        Q.   Where do you see the reference --

23        A.   -- did not apply.  You need to differentiate between security

24     work and intelligence work which has a completely different function.

25        Q.   I understand.  I'm attempting to do that.  I don't see a

Page 25066

 1     reference in paragraph 6(b) to counter-intelligence work.  Can you show

 2     us where that is?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Counter-intelligence is, according to the

 4     witness's evidence, is the function of security; therefore, this topic

 5     here relates to counter-intelligence because it's for security.  In --

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, if I may ask him about this.  The

 7     entire manual is actually referring to security organs and --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's right.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- then I'd like to ask his understanding of the

10     term.

11        Q.   I ask again:  Is there a specific reference to

12     counter-intelligence in paragraph 6(b)?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry.  We have it in the title.  It says: "Security

14     organs should carry next tasks."  So it says "security organs," so it

15     creates only confusion.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It's -- but I think the issue is whether it says

17     anywhere "counter-intelligence" because that was part of the witness --

18     his answers.  I give an opportunity to Ms. MacGregor to further explore.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:

20        Q.   There are two issues I'm trying to explore with you,

21     Colonel Bukva.  So let's start with the issue of -- you have described

22     paragraph 6(b) as referring to counter-intelligence activities.  Can you

23     explain why you believe 6(b) is only referring to counter-intelligence

24     activities?

25        A.   It's not just 6(b) that refers to counter-intelligence

Page 25067

 1     activities.  Generally, all functions of the security organs could be

 2     referred to by a single name and that would be counter-intelligence,

 3     protection of units and institutions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 4     Protection from threats from the opposite side, coming from the enemy

 5     side.  So under one name, all measures that intelligence or security

 6     organs undertake are counter-intelligence activities.  These are

 7     preventative measures, organisational measures, all types of measures

 8     undertaken by security organs.

 9        Q.   In your answer you've just said that:

10             "... under one name, all measures that intelligence or security

11     organs undertake are counter-intelligence activities."

12             And then you said:

13             "These are preventative measures, organisational measures, all

14     types of measures undertaken by security organs."

15             So those two sentences are slightly different.  The first

16     sentence implies that intelligence organs undertake counter-intelligence

17     activities.  Do intelligence organs undertake counter-intelligence

18     activities as you understand that term?

19        A.   No, no, you misunderstood me.  Intelligence organs do not carry

20     our counter-intelligence measures.  Counter-intelligence measures are the

21     result of the work and of the evaluation of the situation, the results of

22     information that is gathered and evaluation of the situation --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you please slow down and

25     could you resume your answer by where you said:

Page 25068

 1             "... the results of information that is gathered and evaluation

 2     of the situation ..."

 3             And could you resume from there.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  On the basis of intelligence

 5     information gathered and the conclusions on the basis of an evaluation of

 6     the situation, security organs propose measures of a preventive nature,

 7     organisation and technical nature or any other nature whose objective is

 8     to neutralise negative influences or effects on the units of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska which would be coming from the enemy's side.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:

11        Q.   You seem to be emphasizing right now that only the security

12     organs were involved in counter-intelligence evaluation.  And I refer you

13     to your testimony earlier today at temporary page 49, where I ask you

14     about the reference to counter-intelligence evaluation in paragraph 29 of

15     this same document.  Your answer, starting at line 19 on page 49, is as

16     follows:

17             "Counter-intelligence evaluation is a thought process in the work

18     of the intelligence and security organs.  It's one of the tasks of the

19     security organs."

20             So I may be misunderstanding you but there are at least two times

21     where you have referred to counter-intelligence work as being a task of

22     both the security organ and the intelligence organ.  So can you please

23     clarify if it is, in fact, a role that both types of organs undertake?

24        A.   No, it's a misunderstanding, and I apologise if I'm the one who's

25     responsible for that, but I state decisively the following.  I repeat:

Page 25069

 1     Intelligence organs work on intelligence and that has nothing to do with

 2     counter-intelligence.  That work has nothing to do with

 3     counter-intelligence work.  As for the security organs, and I said that

 4     when I speak about the counter-intelligence evaluation that is the basic

 5     method of work of the security organs, exclusively the security organs.

 6     So I don't know how this misunderstanding came about.  So the main method

 7     of work of security organs is counter-intelligence, and I said that it's

 8     a thought process that goes on continuously.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. MacGregor, you should perhaps make a

11     distinction between counter-intelligence and counter-intelligence

12     evaluation.  Counter-intelligence is not the same as counter-intelligence

13     evaluation.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  I understand what your point is, Your Honour.  I

15     will go back through the testimony.  I believe that it hasn't been that

16     clear as a distinction.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could I --

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  I'll move on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just try to seek some clarity.  Let me just

20     try to tell you how I understood your testimony in this respect and if

21     could you then perhaps either confirm or say that I understood it all

22     wrong.

23             I do understand that intelligence is collecting all kind of

24     information which -- especially about enemy forces, which is relevant for

25     any operational decision-making process.  Is that more or less well

Page 25070

 1     understood?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in principle, yes, that is

 3     well understood.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now I understand counter-intelligence to be the

 5     activity to undermine the intelligence of the opposing armed forces; that

 6     is, either to block their sources of information or to prevent them from

 7     learning secret information from your armed forces.  And I also

 8     understood that you said gathering information about the enemy,

 9     intelligence, was the task of the intelligence service; whereas

10     undermining, blocking, frustrating, the intelligence of the opponent

11     armed forces was the task of the security unit.  That is how I more or

12     less understood your testimony.  Is that well understood or do you say

13     no, you're totally wrong in understanding my testimony?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have understood it excellently,

15     precisely as it should be understood.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before I start blushing, Ms. MacGregor will continue

17     her examination -- her cross-examination.

18             MS. MacGREGOR: [Microphone not activated] If we can go back,

19     then, to paragraph --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can return to paragraph 6(b).

22        Q.   This part I read to you is as follows:

23             "Security organs are responsible for the detection, tracking, and

24     prevention of hostile activities by individuals, groups or organisations

25     against the armed forces or members of the armed forces."

Page 25071

 1             Would you agree that your role included the detection and

 2     tracking of such information?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think that was 6(a).

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:

 6        Q.   It's, if you look at 6(b), the detection and prevention -- oh,

 7     I -- sorry, yes.  With the word "tracking."  Can you look, Mr. Witness,

 8     at paragraph 6(a).  I'll read again.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you to Judge Fluegge.

10        Q.   "The detection, tracking, and prevention of intelligence

11     activities ..."

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Actually, I'm sorry.  I am sticking to 6(b) but

13     removing the word "tracking" and that -- I see where the confusion is.

14        Q.   Colonel Bukva, were you responsible for the detection of hostile

15     activities by individuals, groups or organisations against the armed

16     forces?

17        A.   Well, your question seems to indicate again that the gist has

18     been misunderstood.  No.  Intelligence work is directed towards the

19     enemy, not towards one's own forces.  What you're talking about, 6(b), is

20     the work of the security organs, exclusively the work of security organs.

21        Q.   Do you agree that the title of this manual is:  "The Rules of

22     Service for Military Security Organs," the entire manual?

23        A.   Yes, yes.  I think that is what it says on the cover of the

24     document.

25        Q.   And you testified --

Page 25072

 1        A.   These are the rules of the security organs.

 2        Q.   And you testified this morning that these were the rules that

 3     outlined your obligations as part of the intelligence organ?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  I wanted to object before.  Now you

 5     have -- at page 49, the question was put in reference of security organs.

 6     Not intelligence organs.  And all the answers were in connection to

 7     security organs, when first it was [overlapping speakers] --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you want to say that it misstates the

 9     evidence.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is granted.

12             MR. LUKIC:  There are separate rules for his service.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There was a ruling, Mr. Lukic.  The objection is

14     granted.

15             Please rephrase your question.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  I'm not sure I understand the objection.  I'm

17     referring to testimony that this witness gave earlier when we referred to

18     this document, much earlier.  The first time we looked at this document.

19     And I can find the reference if you like.  I see that we're past the time

20     for the end of the day, but I'm not referring to the testimony he just

21     gave just a few minutes ago.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then -- yes, what I should have done, as a

23     matter of fact, is I should have given you an opportunity to respond.

24     Where are you referring to if not to page 49?

25             MR. LUKIC:  It's 49, line 3.  It's --

Page 25073

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It's not a couple of minutes ago.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But -- no, Ms. MacGregor has an opportunity to

 4     indicate where she is referring to if it is different from what Mr. Lukic

 5     referred to.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  I will have found it in a moment if you grant me

 7     just a small dispensation.  Okay.  Sorry.  Okay.  I --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If -- you found it?

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes.  I am at transcript page 48.  And this is

10     when I first showed Colonel Bukva this document.  And at line 24, I

11     asked:

12             "Does this document outline the rules for the work of your unit?"

13             And he answered:

14             "Yes."

15             And that is the question -- that is the answer that I was

16     questioning him about at this point in time.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And your next question makes clear that this

18     paragraph, there is a reference to security organs conducting

19     counter-intelligence evaluation.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, the next question which is specifically

21     about paragraph 28.  The point I'm getting at is that the entire manual

22     is entitled -- is directed towards security organs.  That's the only

23     point I'm trying to get across, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is no dispute in that respect.  It all is

25     about security organs.

Page 25074

 1             MS. MacGREGOR:  And he's testified that the manual did apply to

 2     his work.  I just trying to confirm that.  That's all I'm actually trying

 3     to confirm.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I think what he's trying --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  His unit.  "If this document outlines the rules

 6     of the work for your unit."  That was your question.  What do -- that was

 7     very unclear.  Which unit did you refer to?

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Shall I -- I'll put the question to him with more

 9     specificity.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And could you please -- if you further want to

11     explore the matter, irrespective of whether that is -- will greatly

12     assist the Chamber, then perhaps the way in which it was organised - that

13     is, which tasks were put together in what kind of units and what these

14     tasks exactly were, security, intelligence - should be clearly

15     distinguished.  The organisational aspect is not the same as the

16     functional aspect in terms of task.  Could you please keep that in mind.

17     I'll leave it to you whether you want to further explore the matter.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  I would just have one question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please put that question to the witness.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  I withdraw the question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then that's -- yes.  Then please proceed.

22             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have no -- yes, yes.  It's time.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, I'm sorry.  That's what I meant,

Page 25075

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But is this a withdrawal only for the day or

 3     for the week, to say so?

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  I have further questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But not that one question you had on your mind?

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  I'm going to take the opportunity to think on it,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's always very wise.  I think everyone

 9     would agree with that.

10             Mr. Bukva, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow

11     morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom, II.  And I inform the parties

12     that we are more or less condemned to stay in this courtroom II for the

13     rest of the week, the technical problems not having overcome yet.

14             But before you follow the usher, Mr. Bukva, I would like to

15     instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way to

16     whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony you have given

17     today or whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.  If that's

18     clear to you, you may follow the usher.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, in terms of time, where are we?

22             MS. MacGREGOR: [Microphone not activated] I believe -- I believe

23     I've used just over half of my time, and I intend to finish tomorrow,

24     probably not in the first section -- session but in the second session.

25     I would imagine I have about an hour to an hour and a half more of

Page 25076

 1     questions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then that's clear to us.  We adjourn for the day and

 3     will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 2nd of September, 9.30 in the morning,

 4     in this same courtroom, II.

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

 7                           September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.