Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25077

 1                           Tuesday, 2 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             No preliminaries, therefore we'll continue.

12             We were informed, Ms. MacGregor, that you expect to finish your

13     cross-examination in the first session.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Bukva.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bukva, I'd like to remind you that you're still

18     bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning

19     of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

20     nothing but the truth.  Ms. MacGregor will now continue her

21     cross-examination.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           WITNESS:  MILORAD BUKVA [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 25078

 1                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:  [Continued]

 2        Q.   Good morning, Colonel Bukva.  I see that you don't have a copy of

 3     your statement in front of you.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  I don't know if the Defence has a copy.

 5        Q.   If you'd like one, I am going to ask you a couple of questions

 6     referring to your statement.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   I'm going to be asking you about paragraphs 34 and 35 of your

 9     statement about the Vaso Miskin incident on 27 May 1992.  I see that

10     you've opened the statement.

11             Now according to your statement, the information obtained by you

12     and your service showed that Mirza Jamakovic planted an explosive device

13     in a building across from the bread kiosk.  Who was your source for that

14     information?

15        A.   The source for that information was only one.  It was a prewar

16     operative source that I had.

17        Q.   Do you remember the name of that source?

18        A.   No, because I - how shall I say? - inherited it under a pseudonym

19     and not a name and surname.

20        Q.   You knew the source by a pseudonym, is that what you mean?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   You also state that Muslim authorities attempted to liquidate

23     Jamakovic and that he lost his hand in the explosion that occurred when

24     they attempted to kill him.  When did you learn about that incident?

25        A.   Considering that this incident was an extreme interest, it caused

Page 25079

 1     an important reaction among the international community.  The Main Staff

 2     of the Army of Republika Srpska ordered that this incident be thoroughly

 3     investigated because the VRS was, of course, blamed for what had happened

 4     in Vase Miskina Street.

 5        Q.   If I can --

 6        A.   My service --

 7        Q.   -- stop you.  I believe when you're talking about this incident

 8     in your answer that you're referring to the initial Vaso Miskin incident.

 9     My question is:  When did you learn about the explosion that resulted in

10     Jamakovic losing his hand?

11        A.   Oh, sorry, I didn't understand.  I just wanted to say that we

12     worked on this case intensively.  And the first information, the one I

13     mentioned in the statement, we'd received perhaps two or three months

14     after the Vaso Miskin incident.  So if it happened on the 27th May, three

15     months later we already had this information, roughly.  I cannot be

16     precise.  If it happened in the end of May, we had this information

17     sometime towards the end of August.

18        Q.   And then when did you learn about the incident where Jamakovic

19     lost his hand?

20        A.   I just explained.  The information that he lost his hand I

21     received perhaps three months after the Vaso Miskin incident.  Now when

22     he lost his hand, on which date, when the assassination attempt took

23     place, I don't know.

24        Q.   You state that his son was killed by a sniper after that because

25     Jamakovic would not stop talking about the Vaso Miskin incident.  When

Page 25080

 1     did you learnt about the death of his son?

 2        A.   That was later.  Later.  In another contact with that source when

 3     he called from the city.  I don't know exactly when, but it was later.  I

 4     cannot pin-point a date because it all happened 22 years ago.

 5        Q.   And when you said "contact with that source," are you referring

 6     to the same source with the pseudonym that you referred to earlier?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.  It's the same source but it was a different contact, a

 8     different occasion when he made contact and let me know about the death

 9     of Jamakovic's son.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, should we spend a lot of time on

11     paragraph 34 and 35 where it's deprived of any facts.  If I read, for

12     example, that the son was allegedly killed by a Chetnik sniper.

13             "The boy was killed at the place where it was absolutely

14     impossible to hit by infantry weapons from the VRS positions."

15             We don't even know where he was, so there is no way to test this

16     evidence and for that reason the probative value is close to zero.  The

17     Defence should be aware of that, but apparently they are insufficiently

18     aware of that.  And to cross-examine in detail, and I know that you

19     didn't use this line, but paragraph 34 and 35 is, "We received

20     information which shows," what's the information, how does it show?  We

21     all know by now that it took Trial Chambers in this Tribunal up to weeks

22     or months to establish the details of an explosion of -- it's totally

23     useless.  And if the Defence isn't aware of that, then that's no reason

24     for the Prosecution then in cross-examination to just join the Defence in

25     considering this to be evidence which assists the Chamber.  I hope, of

Page 25081

 1     course, that both parties will become aware of that.

 2             What we see from these paragraphs is that some information

 3     reached a witness on which he based some conclusions.  That's all.  Let's

 4     move on.

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             Can I please have 65 ter 31143.

 7        Q.   Colonel Bukva, as we wait for this to load on the screen, this is

 8     a request dated 19 January 1993 in which Major Dusan Savcic requests the

 9     use of 20 Muslims to fortify the front line position at Zlatiste.  Do you

10     have a chance to see that on the screen in front of you?

11             Perhaps if the B/C/S version was a bit larger, it may be easier

12     for you to see.

13             I draw your attention to the bottom left to the handwritten

14     approval signed by Colonel Lugonja.  Are you able to see that?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did Colonel Lugonja's authority include the work assignments of

17     Muslim detainees?

18        A.   No.  Remand prisons and prisons were in the jurisdiction of the

19     command, the garrison command.  In this case it's just an approval, and

20     here in this case we read, "I give consent," which doesn't mean that he

21     approved it.  Only the garrison command could approve it.

22     Colonel Lugonja did not have such powers.  He was only consulted by the

23     command and this is proof.  He only says that he agrees.  He gives his

24     consent, whereas the decision was in the hands of the command.

25        Q.   Your interpretation is different than our English translation, so

Page 25082

 1     perhaps the Defence and the Prosecution can consult if we feel there is a

 2     significant difference.

 3             Colonel Bukva, in English the translation reads: "I approve the

 4     engagement of the detainees," and you've read that as "I give consent."

 5     Is that correct?

 6        A.   In the Serbian version that I'm reading, in the lower left corner

 7     it says: "I agree that prisoners be engaged in works" or "I give

 8     consent."  "I agree" or "give consent."  And then he signs it,

 9     Colonel Lugonja.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one additional question.  That's the

12     handwritten portion.  Now, the document itself, and I read is addressed

13     to Lugonja, Lugonja, and the Chief of Staff writes:

14             "We are requesting that you let us temporarily use 20 Muslims on

15     the 19th of January ..."

16             There is a request that Mr. Lugonja let the Chief of Staff, the

17     command of the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade use detainees.  That is

18     clearly asking for a decision, for approval, for consent, whatever you

19     want to call it, but the document, the request clearly indicates that

20     Savcic needs a decision by Lugonja that he allows this to happen or that

21     he let them use those detainees.  Would you agree with me that that's the

22     gist of this request?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree with you.  And that's

24     exactly what's written here, "I give consent."  But I emphasize the

25     second part of the answer, but the right to approve these prisoners was

Page 25083

 1     in the exclusive jurisdiction of the command.  So Colonel Lugonja was not

 2     able to order how the prisoners would be used.  He could only say, "I do

 3     not agree," and then the commander would not allow it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So using those prisoners was dependent on the

 5     consent, agreement, even if not ordered but at least was dependent on the

 6     consent of Lugonja.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it didn't have to be

 8     exclusively dependent on his consent.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who actually decided

11     just wanted to hear --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you.  You add a word to what I said,

13     "exclusively."  If you change my words, it's of no use to answer my

14     questions.  I said they could be used dependent on the consent and, of

15     course, if Savcic would want that as well, and it's clear from this

16     request that he does so.  Any further comment on the matter?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking I agree with

18     you, but if you allow I can add that situations like this were rare.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm not --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was rare that this was allowed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not seeking that kind of information.

22             I've one other question for you.  Do you think it legitimate to

23     use detainees to work on the front line in -- to make fortifications?  Or

24     would that be illegal?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that in this specific

Page 25084

 1     case, these prisoners were not exposed to enemy fire from the other side

 2     in this specific case.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I -- stop.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their engagement was --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I wasn't asking you whether they were exposed to

 6     enemy fire.  I put a general question to you whether it's legal to use

 7     prisoners to -- for fortification works at the front line.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that's defined

 9     anywhere in the law.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I couldn't give you an exact

12     answer.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             I'd like to tender 65 ter 31143 into evidence, please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31143 receives number P6709,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             I'd also like for the record to draw the attention to the

22     evidence already in the record on the Vaso Miskin incident and what

23     happened to Jamakovic.  And that's the evidence of Ekrem Suljevic,

24     including P889, e-court page 11, paragraph 66 and 67; and also an

25     investigative report of the incident in which his son was killed at

Page 25085

 1     P1106.

 2             And the Prosecution has no further questions for this witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.

 4             Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I might have only one on this Jamakovic, 34 and 35,

 6     from this gentleman's statement.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, good morning again.  Do you remember

 9     that I put it to you that Jamakovic's son died in a mine explosion?  When

10     we were talking.

11        A.   When I talked about what I knew about it, I believe you mentioned

12     something like that.

13        Q.   Paragraph 35 of your statement, you say allegedly from a Chetnik

14     sniper.  That is the information as you received it.

15        A.   I've already said I received that information from an operative

16     source on the ground.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any further questions

19     either.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

21             Mr. Bukva -- well, I may take it that the re-examination has not

22     triggered any further need for questions by the Prosecution.

23             Mr. Bukva, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like

24     to thank you very much for coming to The Hague, for having answered the

25     questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

Page 25086

 1     wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the next witness be kept standby.  I'd like to

 5     briefly move into private session only for a very short moment.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

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Page 25087

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18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  And we are in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We are in open session.

23             I filled the screen a little bit now so that the curtains can be

24     opened more quickly.

25             Mr. Lukic, you said the witness was not yet --

Page 25088

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I doubt that he is here.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you suggested we take the break first.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I do.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll do so, and perhaps then we take the

 5     break --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Well --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Then no need for the break --

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has arrived.

11             Then could the witness be escorted into the court.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, may I take this opportunity to ask

13     for permission to leave.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but under one condition:  That you open the

15     second curtain as well.

16             Thank you so much, Ms. MacGregor.  You are excused.

17             Apparently, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Mladic wants to consult with you.

18             Mr. Lukic, you -- is there anything that needs our attention --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             MR. LUKIC:  Something was taken from General Mladic and he would

22     like to have it back, but I think it's --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know what was --

24             MR. LUKIC:  -- maybe better to discuss --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- taken from him --

Page 25089

 1             MR. LUKIC:  It's a pin, one pin, a tie pin.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Maybe for security reasons that -- and it

 3     will be returned to him, I take it.  Further details to be dealt with.

 4             Good morning, Mr. Indjic.  I saw that the first thing you did was

 5     to greet the accused.  That's not commonly done in this courtroom.  You

 6     appear before a Court.  Would you please refrain from any communications

 7     even not verbally with the accused.

 8             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

 9     solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

10     nothing but the truth.  Is text is handed out to you now.  May I invite

11     you to make that solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  MILENKO INDJIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Indjic.

17             Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just as a preliminary, I wanted to

19     notify the Chamber of two things.  The first thing being that I believe

20     in terms of my cross estimate, I'll be an hour less in time at least.

21     And the second thing, I just wanted to notify the Chamber that the

22     witness did receive a Rule 90(E) caution previously during his testimony

23     and we believe he should receive it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you know the approach of the Chamber, that not

25     knowing what questions will be put to the witness, that we leave it to

Page 25090

 1     the parties whether it's appropriate to request the Chamber to give a

 2     90(E) warning.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             Mr. Indjic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll

 5     find Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

 6     Mr. Mladic.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I just may ask

 9     before I begin to have the usher take the summaries of the witness

10     statements that we need to provide to the interpreters, because I did not

11     manage to do that before I begin.  I was short of time.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, you were taken by surprise.  That's

13     understandable under the present situation.  Please proceed.  Your

14     request is granted and the summaries will be distributed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Indjic, good morning.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   For the transcript, could you please slowly speak your name out

20     and your last name.

21        A.   My name is Milenko Indjic.

22        Q.   Mr. Indjic, did you provide a statement to General Mladic's

23     Defence, a written statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document

Page 25091

 1     65 ter number 1D01759.  I don't know if we need to wait for the usher

 2     before we get the document.

 3        Q.   Mr. Indjic, on the left-hand side of the screen you see the B/C/S

 4     version and on the right-hand side the English version of your statement.

 5     My question to you is the following:  Is the signature on the front page

 6     of this signature [as interpreted] precisely your signature?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page,

10     please.

11        Q.   I will put the same question to you.  Is the signature on this

12     page that you have in front of you your signature and is the date that is

13     written there written by your very own hand?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you that I put when you

16     provided the statement and after you have spoken the solemn declaration

17     in the courtroom today, would the answers to my questions be identical as

18     the answers you provided in your statement?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

22     tender the witness's statement with the 65 ter number 1D01759.

23             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D01759 receives number D614,

Page 25092

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             Mr. Stojanovic, if the witness confirmation says something about

 4     the number of pages, it sometime would be good to fill in the number of

 5     pages.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.

 7     Thank you.

 8             With your leave, Your Honours, I would like to read the summary

 9     of the witness statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milenko Indjic, with the

12     forming of the UNPROFOR mission in 1992 in the territory of the former

13     Yugoslavia, pursuant to an order of the then Federal Secretary for

14     National Defence, was appointed as liaison officer of the JNA in the

15     group for co-operation with UNPROFOR.

16             With the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska, in view

17     of the fact that he lived in Sarajevo, he continued to carry out said

18     duties in Republika Srpska and he remained at that duty practically until

19     the end of the war.

20             He testified to the situation in Sarajevo before the war broke

21     out in 1992, about the arming and organising of Muslim paramilitary

22     forces, and about the blockade of Yugoslav People's Army barracks in

23     Sarajevo.  After handing over the control over Sarajevo airport, which

24     passed from VRS hands to the UNPROFOR, he personally was aware of the

25     abuse of the mutual agreement and that the airport was used for the

Page 25093

 1     military needs of the Muslim side, which is reflected in weapons and

 2     ammunition supplies and enabling the Muslim military and civil leadership

 3     to use the airport without any obstacles for their own needs.

 4             He took part in most of the cease-fire negotiations and witnesses

 5     the abuse of signed cease-fires by the B and H Army.  He asserts that he

 6     personally knew that the reports by military observers about the number

 7     of shells fired around Sarajevo is not accurate because the data about

 8     that was received from the warring parties and were frequently used for

 9     media manipulation.

10             As liaison officer, he personally attended a large number of

11     meetings which were attended by General Mladic as well, and he testified

12     to the position and to the character of General Mladic as well as his

13     relationship towards the participants in the negotiations.

14             Finally, in his statement he notes that the UNPROFOR went beyond

15     its mandate before the NATO bombing of the positions of the VRS, and he

16     talked about the reasons why the order was issued to place them under

17     control, disarm them, and take away their communications means.  He is

18     personally aware and will testify about the position of the VRS towards

19     these persons and the status and the treatment they had while they were

20     under the control of the VRS.

21             And now I would like the put some questions to the witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Stojanovic, there is some guidance.

23             Having read the statement, having heard the summary of the

24     statement, I would urge you to focus on facts rather than on opinion.

25             Please proceed.

Page 25094

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now again look at

 2     paragraph 14 of the witness statement, which is now D614, if I understood

 3     correctly and noted it down correctly.

 4        Q.   Mr. Indjic, you have your statement in front of you.  I would

 5     like to ask you for a clarification of a part of your statement where you

 6     say UNPROFOR allowed the tunnel to be built under the airport, which was

 7     primarily used for the regrouping of military forces and its other

 8     purpose, and then you continue.

 9             My question is:  Did you have any personal knowledge about the

10     work by the ABiH Army to dig a tunnel under the airport runway?

11        A.   During a certain period, I personally received aerial photographs

12     from UNPROFOR of the Sarajevo airport where it was written in French that

13     they were confidential, and the position of the entrance to the tunnel

14     was marked on them, the direction of the tunnel, and the exit from the

15     tunnel.  These photographs I handed over to the defence attorneys in the

16     trial of General Galic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you mind to answer the question.  The

18     question was whether you have any personal knowledge about the work done

19     by the ABiH Army to dig the tunnel.  So that is the army being involved

20     in digging the tunnel.  Your answer may be -- contain very interesting

21     information but it is not an answer to the question.  Could you please

22     answer the question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to the question in the

24     form that you have now put it is that I don't have any personal knowledge

25     about the digging of the tunnel, but I do have personal knowledge about

Page 25095

 1     the existence of the tunnel.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there is no dispute about the existence of the

 3     tunnel, is there?  So therefore, we don't have to deal with that.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   At any point in time during the work to dig the tunnel and after

 7     the tunnel was dug, did the VRS lodge any protests about the tunnel with

 8     UNPROFOR?

 9        A.   After we received clear data that the tunnel existed, every

10     meeting of the corps commander with representatives of UNPROFOR also

11     dealt with that part where representatives of UNPROFOR were requested to

12     shut down the tunnel and prevent the regrouping of Muslim forces.  These

13     protests would usually receive the following answer, that we were making

14     things up and that the tunnel did not exist.

15        Q.   Were you personally present at any of the meetings when the

16     aerial photographs were discussed that you mentioned earlier?

17        A.   I was present at a meeting at the corps command between

18     General Galic and the then commander of UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo,

19     General Soubirou.  After the protests stated by General Galic about the

20     tunnel, General Soubirou warned us with a laugh that we should not be

21     making things up about something that did not exist.  I asked

22     General Galic for permission to bring the aerial photographs so that we

23     could show them to General Soubirou.  When I brought these photographs, I

24     asked - and I must say I did it in a provocative way - I asked

25     General Soubirou to help us to understand what was written on the

Page 25096

 1     photographs, because it was written in French, to which he got up very

 2     angry and left the meeting.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at

 5     paragraph 16 of your statement.  In B/C/S at one point we'll have to move

 6     to the next page.  I'll say when.

 7        Q.   In your statement, Mr. Indjic, you say in paragraph 16:

 8             "Observing the agreed cease-fires, the Serb side suffered large

 9     losses because the Muslims would always breach the agreement ..."

10             Now let's move to the next page in B/C/S.

11             "... by opening fire or by performing engineering works to fix

12     their positions."

13             And then the last sentence:

14             "In the Sarajevo theatre of war, the Muslim forces took more

15     territory by digging in the periods of cease-fire than by all their

16     combat activities throughout the war."

17             My question is:  What did you mean by "they took territory by

18     digging during cease-fires"?

19        A.   From the very beginning of the war, I believe there were posters

20     all over Sarajevo under Muslim control saying, "We can dig our way to

21     victory."  By digging during cease-fires, the Muslims were trying to

22     advance their positions by carrying out engineering works in such a way

23     as to occupy the space between confrontation lines, knowing that the

24     Serbs wouldn't open fire at them during cease-fires.

25             We had huge problems to explain to UNPROFOR that engineering

Page 25097

 1     works also constitute a violation of the cease-fire agreement and

 2     movements of positions also constitute a violation.  We had to stop our

 3     soldiers from opening fire when they saw that the enemy is advancing on

 4     them, coming closer.

 5        Q.   These violations of the cease-fire by one signatory to the

 6     agreement, did they lead to any protests to the UNPROFOR from your side?

 7        A.   On many occasions, at different levels, we warned the UNPROFOR

 8     and brought to their attention the breaches of the cease-fire agreement

 9     through engineering works.  I have to explain to you one essential

10     feature of Serbs.  The Serbs are very reluctant to complain, protest, and

11     ask somebody else to defend them.  They usually defend themselves.  But

12     it was our obligation to warn the UNPROFOR of what was going on.

13        Q.   Did you do that?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up 65 ter 1D04175.

16     Page 1.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Indjic, this is one of the documents that the command of the

18     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the 19th of February, 1994, sent to the

19     Main Staff.  Could you please look at item 1, which says:

20             [As read] "Engineering works continued at Mojmilo towards

21     Sucura ... houses and the SVC Barracks towards the Jewish Cemetery to

22     Bosut and the Osmica from Sucura houses towards Nedzarici towards

23     Energoinvest from Dzemala Bijedic Street and in the sector of Sugreb

24     (Mount Igman)."

25             My question is:  Are these engineering works precisely what you

Page 25098

 1     were referring to?

 2        A.   That is what I meant.  At item 1 of the regular combat reports

 3     from corps to the Main Staff usually contains information about the

 4     enemy, such is the format of the report.  So in every period of

 5     cease-fire you can analyse through regular combat reports, looking at

 6     item 1, you can analyse what was going on on the ground.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful if the two documents could be

 8     enlarged a bit.  The letters are very small.  Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Please look at paragraph 3.  It says under subheading "Situation

11     on the ground," UNPROFOR activities.  And the text below reads:

12             "A meeting was held in Lukavica between General Galic and

13     General Soubirou.  The following chief problems were identified ..."

14             And then it goes on to say:

15             [As read] "The Muslims continue to violate the cease-fire

16     agreement by carrying out engineering works and opening fire at our

17     positions (Hadzici)."

18             My question is:  These complaints and protests lodged by the

19     command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to UNPROFOR over violations of the

20     cease-fire, were they verbal or written?

21        A.   Both.  It was possible to warn the UNPROFOR verbally or in

22     writing if no meetings had been scheduled and there was important

23     information to impart to UNPROFOR.  We could always tell them about

24     something important.  It was not necessary.  It was not required to write

25     a report.

Page 25099

 1        Q.   These meetings between the commander of the

 2     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and high-ranking UNPROFOR officers, did they

 3     require your presence as the liaison officer in the logistics of the

 4     meeting?

 5        A.   In the preparation and organisation of the meeting, somebody from

 6     the group in charge of co-operation with international organisations had

 7     to be present.  If I was physically there, it was usually myself.  And if

 8     I was away, then somebody from my group would be there.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I

10     tender 65 ter 1D04175.

11             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4175 receives number D615,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

16             Witness, we'll take a break.  Therefore, would you please follow

17     the usher.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the question came to my mind to what

20     extent most of what you dealt with is in dispute, that is, that

21     complaints were lodged, meetings were held, the existence of the tunnel

22     seems not to be in dispute.  Even we have heard quite some evidence

23     through various, even Prosecution witnesses, on the matter, so I wonder

24     to what extent it's repetitive and I wonder to what extent it is a matter

25     of dispute.  Would you please keep that in mind, especially if you ask

Page 25100

 1     for more time than you indicated before.

 2             We take a break and will resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be brought in.

 6             The Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic had difficulties with

 7     the tie pin.  It is exclusively a security matter.  Security matters are

 8     within the competence of the Registry; therefore, the Chamber will not

 9     deal with it because it has no impact whatsoever on the court

10     proceedings.  Therefore, we leave it to that.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I kindly ask that we call

14     up the following document in e-court, 65 ter 1D04157.  I would likely us

15     to focus on paragraph 8.  Let's just briefly stay on page 1 to see what

16     this document is about.

17        Q.   Mr. Indjic, it's again a regular combat report from the command

18     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps dated 4 March 1994.  Now focus on

19     paragraph 8.  It says in the subheading, "Conclusions, forecasts,

20     decisions":

21             [As read] "The Muslims are still carrying out engineering works

22     at their positions digging trenches (roads) towards our positions, in

23     order to achieve the most favourable ... position possible in relation to

24     our forces.  Despite regular warnings and protests sent to UNPROFOR

25     observers, the latter are unable to prevent the enemy's activities

Page 25101

 1     completely which results in certain soldiers and commanding officers

 2     being tempted to open fire even without the approval of their superior

 3     command."

 4             I would like to ask you:  Was this behaviour on the part of the

 5     enemy something that constituted their obligations and a violation of the

 6     cease-fire agreement?

 7        A.   It was as much a violation of the cease-fire agreement as if they

 8     had opened fire.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I tender 1D04157.

10             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4157 receives number D616,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now let us see another document,

16     65 ter 1D04159.

17        Q.   Mr. Indjic, this is a record of a meeting at the Sarajevo airport

18     with what the author described as the Chetnik side.  The command of the

19     1st Corps of the BH Army made this report on 1st of January, 1995.  And

20     it says that from the aggressor side there were Colonel Cedo Sladoje, as

21     Chief of Staff of the SRK, and you as the liaison officer.

22     General Gobillard opens the meeting, presents the main points, and then

23     Colonel Sladoje says:  I have been informed by my scouts that our

24     agreement has not been observed, has not been honoured.  When what we

25     agreed has been done, then I will sit down here.

Page 25102

 1             General Gobillard responds:  My scouts inform me that the

 2     agreement has not been fulfilled.  And he says also --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   -- in a way you have the right --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.  Can we go to the next page

 7     in the English, please.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 9        Q.   General Gobillard says:

10             [As read] "In a way you are right, but the DMZ shall be honoured.

11     We will tell you what has been withdrawn and what was not."

12             Will you please tell the Court what this meeting discussed and

13     what problem did Colonel Sladoje emphasize?

14        A.   I remember this meeting.  At this meeting we were supposed to

15     identify to what degree the agreement on the demilitarisation of

16     Mount Igman and Mount Bjelasnica had been implemented.  What is important

17     is that this meeting was held in January 1995, while the agreement on

18     demilitarisation was signed in the second half of 1993.

19             From the record of this meeting, it is evident that Muslim forces

20     had not fully withdrawn from the demilitarised zone.  That's what these

21     three letters mean, DMZ.  Which means that over the course of 18 months,

22     the agreement failed to be implemented.  And it speaks volumes about the

23     way the Muslim forces treated such agreements.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, on page 25, lines 20 to 21, you

25     are recorded as having said:

Page 25103

 1             "General Gobillard responds:  My scouts informed me that the

 2     agreement has not been fulfilled."

 3             I think that there must have been a mistake on your part.  These

 4     are the words that Mr. Sladoje used --

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- not Mr. Gobillard.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Those are the words of

10     Colonel Sladoje.  Thank you very much for your assistance.

11             I tender this record dated 5 January 1995, 65 ter number 1D04159.

12             MR. WEBER:  No objection.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4159 receives number D617,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

17             Mr. Weber, is there any dispute about the Muslim side not,

18     certainly not in every respect, meeting their obligations under the DMZ

19     agreement?

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I believe the evidence stands for

21     itself.  We've received a lot of evidence about the activities of both

22     sides during the course of the agreement --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

24             MR. WEBER:  -- so I would not encapsulate it in one simple

25     sentence.

Page 25104

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but I didn't ask you whether there was a dispute

 2     about whether the Serbs did but at least the Muslims, not to say --

 3     doesn't say anything about the Serbs.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, you are asking for more time and apparently you

 5     are -- you are eliciting evidence which -- on a matter which is not in

 6     dispute.  And we have followed the proceedings carefully.  I mean, it

 7     came to my mind because we have heard evidence about it before, so

 8     therefore use the remaining five minutes preferably on matters which are

 9     in dispute.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due

11     respect, over the break we tried to clarify this with the Prosecution.

12     We asked if we could stipulate these questions.  And as far as I

13     understood the position of the Prosecution, yes, the Muslim side did do

14     some engineering works, but in the view of the Prosecution that would not

15     constitute a violation of the cease-fire.  This is why we put this

16     question.

17             The other thing is that, prompted by your digression from

18     yesterday's transcript, page 25039, lines 17 to 22, where you said and

19     suggested that in view of the fact that the statement of this witness was

20     quite general, the Chamber would like to know who violated the cease-fire

21     so that the other side could check that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't say anything about the testimony -- I

23     didn't say anything about the testimony of this witness yesterday, as far

24     as I remember.  And I don't see this document to deal with engineering

25     works.  That was the previous document, if I remember well.

Page 25105

 1             And, Mr. Weber, did you -- were you approached for a stipulation?

 2             MR. WEBER:  Yes, and what I actually believed I informed

 3     Mr. Lukic was that if he would like to write facts, not conclusions,

 4     down, I'd be happy to look at it.  And so, you know, I need to -- what is

 5     the -- not a conclusion but the Prosecution would actually like a fact --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. WEBER:  -- that could be reviewed and then read into the

 8     record.  So I'm going to look at that.  I think that would be our

 9     standard approach and -- instead of just oral on record conversations

10     with --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

12             MR. WEBER:  -- obscure facts, things of that nature.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We should avoid that observations as I just made

14     take more time than -- and the parties are again encouraged to agree on

15     what is in dispute and what is not in dispute.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now look at

18     D614 in e-court again, please.  This is the witness's statement.  And I

19     would like to direct your attention to paragraph 19 of the statement.

20        Q.   My question regarding the explanation of your statement on this

21     matter, Mr. Indjic, is you said that it was established that fire was

22     opened at the centre of Sarajevo from Muslim positions.  So now I'm

23     asking you if you had any knowledge about civilian buildings or

24     facilities in Sarajevo or some other buildings in Sarajevo were being

25     used as locations where artillery positions of the 1st Corps of the

Page 25106

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina army were placed.

 2        A.   I apologise.  I'm a little bit confused.  Paragraph 19 refers to

 3     a very specific matter.  As for this second question, it's not related to

 4     paragraph 19.  I can respond to both.  I can answer in relation to

 5     paragraph 19 and then to this second part.

 6        Q.   I will try to go step by step.  So first regarding paragraph 19,

 7     you say it was established in that period that fire was opened at the

 8     centre of Sarajevo, in parentheses, in the area of Higijenski Zavod.  So

 9     I'm asking you who established this fact, that the shelling in the area

10     of the public health institute had come from the Muslim positions.

11        A.   All right.  In view of a series of manipulations that accompany

12     every war, including the one in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in

13     view of the high level of --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- professional --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- qualifications of the British

18     cadre --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you there.  The simple question was

20     who established the fact that fire was opened at the centre of Sarajevo,

21     who did that.  That was the question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear, clear, clear.  The UNPROFOR

23     command headed by General Rose, thanks to the artillery radar posted, the

24     Cymbeline radar, established -- without any doubt established that the

25     trajectory of the mines which hit the public health institute indicated

Page 25107

 1     that they were fired from Muslim positions.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before you continue, of course the

 3     Chamber -- apart from what exactly the relevance is that the other party

 4     did perhaps something wrong as well.  The relevant question would be what

 5     attack, is there any report, and what do these reports say.  That's, of

 6     course, for the Chamber to give weight to that -- this evidence, would

 7     like to have that kind of information.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did you have information about certain civilian facilities or

11     military facilities were being used as positions of the 1st Corps of the

12     B and H Army and for artillery fire in their immediate vicinity?

13        A.   There was a lot of information.  If we set out from the fact that

14     the 1st Corps was deployed in Sarajevo, the 1st Corps of the Muslim army,

15     which had 11 brigades, that the establishment was taken over from the

16     former JNA, and it's a three-fold organisation, and that each brigade had

17     three battalions, that each battalion had three companies, that the area

18     of responsibility of one company was 1 to 2 kilometres wide, the

19     positions of companies in Sarajevo demanded an area of 150 square

20     kilometres, and the width of Sarajevo from the west on is 15 kilometres.

21     That means that 10 lines --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm stopping you again.  You give a long

23     explanation as to why, apparently, you think that there is a basis for

24     perhaps an answer to the question.  I do not know where it all ends.  The

25     simple question was:  Do you have information about certain civilian

Page 25108

 1     facilities or military facilities were being used as positions of the

 2     1st Corps?  Could you tell us whether you have such information and then

 3     what that is.  Not why but what.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is precisely what I

 5     wanted to say.  There are about 200 different sorts of command posts in

 6     Sarajevo which were mostly located in civilian facilities; specifically,

 7     I personally, in the month of August in 1992, when it was already war,

 8     went to have a coffee with the commander of the Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sefer Halilovic, at his command, so that I personally

10     know that his command was located in the cellar of a civilian building of

11     the city assembly in the centre.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, apparently we move now to a

15     different subject.  The source of fire established by Cymbeline radar,

16     that where I said that what we would be interested in, you moved

17     apparently to a different subject, and therefore I take it that you don't

18     have that information or that you don't consider it important enough to

19     bring it to our attention, which, of course, makes the previous answers

20     of the witness -- it does not strengthen their probative value.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

22     then I would just put one question to Mr. Indjic.

23        Q.   Mr. Indjic, you say that the British members of UNPROFOR

24     established thanks to radar observation of what the location was from

25     where the artillery shell was fired that hit the public health institute.

Page 25109

 1     Did you see that information or a report in a letter of UNPROFOR?  Did

 2     you see a written form of that report?

 3        A.   No, I did not see that report in writing, but from British

 4     officers that I was in contact with, I got that information from them,

 5     and I know that General Rose went to see Silajdzic to lodge a strong

 6     protest about what was happening.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Date of that shell being fired was?  A time.  When

 9     was it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that this was in 1993,

11     before Alija Izetbegovic left for Washington to a meeting at which the

12     lifting of the weapons embargo imposed on the Muslim side was supposed to

13     be lifted.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That gives a rough time-frame.

15             Mr. Stojanovic, where the witness is able to tell us that

16     General Rose lodged a strong protest, I take it that is recorded

17     somewhere, which is usually done.  Have you explored that to see whether

18     what the witness tells us is also reflected in any such report?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are working on it,

20     Your Honour, and I hope that we will be able to identify that by the end

21     of the examination of this witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You interviewed the witness so it comes as a

23     bit of a surprise that it's only now that you are working on it.

24             Let's proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And I'm going to end

Page 25110

 1     with one more question.

 2        Q.   Could we look at paragraph 27 of your statement, please, where

 3     you talk about the situation.  This is in the middle of the paragraph.

 4     The situation when members of UNPROFOR who were in the territory

 5     controlled by the VRS were placed under their control and their

 6     communications devices and weapons were taken from them.  The people that

 7     you talk about in your statement, where were they specifically located?

 8        A.   I'm talking about the French contingent of UNPROFOR which was

 9     billeted in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area in Lukavica, and their task

10     was to monitor heavy weaponry.

11        Q.   According to your best recollection, how many members of French

12     UNPROFOR were placed under the control of the VRS on that occasion?

13        A.   I think it was about 25 men.

14        Q.   And in which building did they continue to sojourn physically

15     after they were placed under VRS control?

16        A.   They remained in the same building in the same premises that they

17     were in until then, only the weapons and their communication means were

18     placed in a different room which was then locked.

19        Q.   And what was the way that these members of the French contingent

20     were treated in terms of food, accommodation?

21        A.   The members of UNPROFOR were treated professionally.  They were

22     not abused.  The only thing was that they were not permitted to move

23     outside of the premises where they were being kept.

24        Q.   Mr. Indjic, thank you very much.  I don't have any further

25     questions for you.

Page 25111

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, again, we've heard quite a bit of

 2     evidence of UNPROFOR members being deprived of their liberty.  Could you

 3     tell us what you told us now about the 25, approximately, where were they

 4     kept, so that we are able to link your information with other evidence

 5     we've seen?  I've got no idea, if you say they stayed in the same

 6     premises, what premises you are talking about.  What premises did they

 7     stay in where they had been before?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you look at my

 9     earlier answer, is that -- where it states that they were in the

10     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area of responsibility, so they were right next

11     to the building where the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was.

12     They were literally some 50 to 100 metres away from the location of the

13     corps HQ.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Are you aware of any other UNPROFOR members

15     that were deprived of their liberty in the zone of the corps which were

16     not allowed to stay in the same premises where they had been before?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to that question would

18     be only about what I heard later.  I did not know about anything about

19     other members of UNPROFOR, about them being taken in, so I don't have any

20     personal information about that.  I don't have personal knowledge about

21     that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Even not as a liaison officer you were not privy

23     with that information?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And what you later heard, from whom did you hear it?

Page 25112

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In conversations at the command

 2     while making reports about how many members of the international forces

 3     there were and at which locations.  There was a record kept and that was

 4     submitted as part of combat reports about the situation on the ground,

 5     how many members of UNPROFOR were there and in which locations.  That is

 6     to say, I personally did not take part or have any personal knowledge

 7     about this except in relation to this particular group.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I understand that in the corps command a

 9     record was kept of where UNPROFOR members who were not free to move any

10     further, were deprived of their liberty, where they were kept?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was part of the -- this was reported to the

13     corps command by the lower units?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, we come to the domain of

15     what I think what was there.  Again, I think that that's how it was, but

16     I don't have any personal insight regarding those reports, meaning the

17     reports of subordinate units to their command.  I did see a collective

18     report which was sent to the Main Staff.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One short follow-up question in relation to this

21     matter.

22             In paragraph 27 of your statement, you refer to an order to place

23     under control and disarm the UNPROFOR members in the territory controlled

24     by the VRS.  Who issued that order?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that day very well.  I

Page 25113

 1     was in my office when the deputy operations officer came and conveyed the

 2     order from the Main Staff that members of UNPROFOR were to be placed

 3     under control and separated from their weapons and communication devices.

 4     He emphasized that strict care must be --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- taken, that not a single member

 7     of UNPROFOR should be hurt in any way.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  An order from the Main Staff.  Was it a written

 9     order or a verbal order?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  The duty operations

11     officer could have received an oral or a written order, and I got that

12     order from the duty operations officer of the corps command in -- orally.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you know who personally at the Main Staff

14     issued this order?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  When you say "Main Staff," you refer to the

18     Main Staff of the VRS?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

22             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Indjic, you'll now be cross-examined by

24     Mr. Weber.  You'll find him to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the

25     Prosecution.

Page 25114

 1             Please proceed.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Indjic.

 4        A.   [In English] Good morning.

 5        Q.   And just so -- I think you even clarified it, but for the record,

 6     is it correct that you speak the English language?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] Still, but not so well as before.

 8        Q.   Just leaving off -- just picking up where we just left off, are

 9     the events that you were -- that you were describing to the Judges about

10     the UNPROFOR members being held pursuant to an order of the VRS

11     Main Staff, does that relate to events that occurred on the 26th of May,

12     1995?

13        A.   I mentioned in my statement and I repeat now that I am not able

14     to speak in any competent way about dates because I have a problem with

15     dates.  I can say that these events began with the NATO air strikes.

16        Q.   We'll come back to the topic.  How about that?

17             MR. WEBER:  If we could pick up also, since we were just looking

18     at the statement on the screen, with D614.  I just have some basic

19     questions about paragraph 2.

20        Q.   In paragraph 2 of your statement, you state:

21             "When the UNPROFOR mission was established in the territory of

22     the former Yugoslavia, I was assigned pursuant to the order of the

23     Federal Secretary for National Defence to the position of liaison officer

24     within the group for co-operation with UNPROFOR ..."

25             Simple question:  When was this order received by you, the

Page 25115

 1     approximate date?

 2        A.   It could have been February or March 1992.

 3        Q.   In this paragraph you indicate that the group at the time was

 4     headed by General Aksentijevic.  Is it correct that this group was under

 5     the command of the 2nd Military District at that time?

 6        A.   I don't know whether it was linked to the 2nd Military District

 7     organisationally, but the reports went directly to the Federal Secretary

 8     for National Defence.  So I think it was only logistically linked to the

 9     2nd Military District and organisationally they were related directly to

10     the Federal Secretariat.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thanks for that clarification.  Up until September 1992,

12     you were based in the PTT building in Sarajevo; correct?

13        A.   I'm not sure whether it was September but it was the second half

14     of 1992.  I think it was September or the end of August, then September.

15        Q.   Okay.  During the remainder of the war you were based in the

16     Lukavica barracks at the headquarters of the SRK; correct?

17        A.   It couldn't be the SRK or the Main Staff.  It was the command of

18     the SRK, the same building where my office was.

19        Q.   In Lukavica, correct?

20        A.   In Lukavica.

21        Q.   At the end of the second paragraph of your statement, you

22     indicate that you ended your service with the rank of lieutenant-colonel.

23     Is it correct that you were promoted to this rank during the war at the

24     beginning of 1995?

25        A.   It's correct that I was promoted during the war, and it was an

Page 25116

 1     early promotion, I think six months earlier.

 2        Q.   You understood my next question.  It was an accelerated

 3     promotion; correct?

 4        A.   It was not fast-track or accelerated.  It was just early.  There

 5     are different categories of promotion.  This one was early.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Moving on away from your statement, is it correct that

 7     contacts with representatives of the international community went through

 8     your office in Lukavica?

 9        A.   Among other things at the office in Lukavica.

10        Q.   Your primary task was to receive requests, protests, and

11     petitions from representatives of the international community addressed

12     to Bosnian Serb institutions.  Is that accurate?

13        A.   Perhaps it would be better to say that the main task was

14     mediating in the communication between various institutions and the

15     institutions of the Serbian side, because that part of the job that you

16     mentioned, receiving requests and protests, et cetera, was only one part

17     of our job.

18        Q.   Okay.  Since you provided a little slightly different answer, I

19     would like to look at your Karadzic statement.

20             MR. WEBER:  This is 65 ter 31179, page 17 in e-court.  It's

21     paragraph 56.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we meanwhile ask the witness to tell us what

23     he meant when he said "mediating in the communication between various

24     institutions."  Various institutions of what, of the international

25     community or UNPROFOR or the ...

Page 25117

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Institutions of the international

 2     community, UNPROFOR, International Red Cross, UNHCR, international press,

 3     warring parties, everybody who needed to make contact with the Serbian

 4     side.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That included the Muslim armed forces.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, I -- if you'll indulge me a little

 9     bit more on that topic, I was going to go into that in detail.

10        Q.   Sir, before you is your Karadzic statement.  And I'd like to

11     direct your -- I believe it's only on one side.  And I'll read it out.  I

12     don't know if you can read paragraph 56 for yourself.  It stated:

13             "The primary task that the group performed was receiving

14     requests, protests, and possessions from the other side or

15     representatives of the international community for institutions on our

16     side."

17             This was your statement for the Karadzic case; correct?

18        A.   Yes.  Nothing is in issue.  I just expanded a little what was

19     said, very briefly.  Only in essential features.  I clarified what this

20     was about.

21        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that you processed these requests or

22     protests and forwarded them to the relevant individual or institution?

23        A.   The part of the question where you said "processed" or "treated"

24     is not clear.  I cannot answer.  As for forwarded, forwarding to the

25     addressee, to those for whom it was intended, that part is correct.

Page 25118

 1        Q.   Well, let's go back to your Karadzic statement that's on the

 2     screen before us.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Next paragraph, 57.

 4        Q.   So I'm using your words:

 5             "We processed these requests, or rather what we received, and

 6     forwarded them to the relevant institutions ... and vice versa, replies

 7     and requests from our side for one of these institutions."

 8             So when you say "processed," are you saying that you received

 9     requests and you then forwarded them to the relevant institution?

10        A.   I understand what is meant in this statement.  For instance, if a

11     protest was sent, especially in the beginning, in 1991 --

12        Q.   Sir --

13        A.   -- when we didn't have translation services --

14        Q.   Sir, I want to keep a little organised.  We'll go through

15     specific examples, but I understand your answer as yes, that that was an

16     accurate statement, that you forwarded the requests to the relevant

17     institutions and vice versa.  Correct?

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  What --

20        A.   I want to say what is meant by "processed."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, what we have on our screen now, did we

22     receive that in e-court or -- because I have some difficulties in --

23             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- getting --

25             MR. WEBER:  -- the 65 ter I have is 31179.

Page 25119

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I still have in e-court a nine-page document,

 2     whereas we are supposed to be on page 17.  Now I have the right one, I

 3     think.  Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It has been fixed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   I just want --

10             MR. WEBER:  Judge, Your Honour, I believe that the witness is --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. WEBER:  -- trying to get your attention.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Indjic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one thing.  The

15     document I have in e-court before me is in English.  English is not my

16     native tongue.  I have some knowledge, but I don't understand it

17     perfectly.  And since it is important here to be precise, I would like

18     the document to be shown to me in my native tongue.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be no B/C/S version of this document.

21     If --

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, it's the Karadzic statement which we

23     have signed from the witness, and we do not -- Ms. Stewart is checking

24     again but -- oh, we don't have a B/C/S version of the -- this statement

25     from the Karadzic case.  From the Karadzic Defence.

Page 25120

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But Mr. Weber read the relevant part into the

 2     transcript and it was interpreted to the witness.  And the witness was

 3     going to explain what he meant by "we processed these requests."

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we can't assist you.  The portions read to

 5     you are interpreted for you.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  And thank you, Judge Fluegge.

 8        Q.   I believe that where we left off was you wanted to make a comment

 9     about what you meant by the word "processed these requests."  If you

10     could just please give us a very brief explanation as to what you mean by

11     that.

12        A.   In the early days, it happened sometimes that a document that was

13     to be sent out by us to UNPROFOR needed to be translated and sent to

14     UNPROFOR in English and vice versa.  The documents received from certain

15     organisations would arrive in English and then we would translate them

16     and forward them, pass them on.  That's what I meant to say.  I, nor

17     anybody else in my group, did not have the right to process anything in

18     the sense of changing the content or the essence of the document.

19        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to try to stay on track here, but you've

20     introduced a -- a temporal element.  Did that stay the same throughout

21     the remainder of the war, that your group did not have the right to

22     process anything in the sense of changes to the content or essence of the

23     document?

24        A.   Right.  We were allowed in no way to change the content or the

25     gist of the document.

Page 25121

 1        Q.   I want to go step by step here and just go through very

 2     particular organisations and how things were communicated.  So if you

 3     could please just listen to my questions.  Is it correct that you

 4     received requests and protests from the United Nations, including

 5     UNPROFOR, UNMOs, and UNHCR?

 6        A.   Yes, and many others.

 7        Q.   Okay.  With respect to the -- these requests and protests related

 8     to UN institutions, would they be made orally and in writing to you?

 9        A.   I want to be emphatic about one thing.  Your question reads would

10     they be made to me.  I said we forwarded protests to the addressee.  They

11     could be verbal or written.  In fact, they were both verbal and written.

12     But they were not sent to me.  I am not the addressee of these protests,

13     Milenko Indjic or anybody else from the group in charge of co-operation

14     with international organisations.

15        Q.   Sir, that's fair and that's well understood that you were

16     forwarding them and I'm sorry if I introduced any confusion, but let's

17     move on.  Is it also correct that you received and forwarded requests and

18     protest letters from the ECMM?  I believe you already mentioned the ICRC

19     and other nongovernmental organisations.

20        A.   If I remember correctly, the ECMM's mandate had already finished

21     when the VRS was established.  So they didn't even exist anymore.  But as

22     for the ICRC and nongovernmental organisations, you are correct.

23        Q.   Is it correct that the protest letters received by your liaison

24     offices were passed on to your superiors in the chain of command of the

25     VRS?

Page 25122

 1        A.   They were forwarded to the addressees.  If they were addressed to

 2     the command of the corps, they were sent to the corps command.  If they

 3     were addressed to the Main Staff, we passed them on to the Main Staff.

 4     The situation became a little easier in 1993 when UNPROFOR established

 5     their own liaison office at Pale.  So the bulk of communication addressed

 6     to the Main Staff went through that office and not my liaison office.

 7        Q.   If you received an oral request or protest directed to

 8     General Mladic, how would you communicate that to the General?

 9        A.   If it concerned something that was not confidential, then a

10     telephone call would be made to General Mladic or the duty officer, or it

11     would be included in a regular report in writing.  If something required

12     a degree of confidentiality, then we made every effort to convey the

13     message to General Mladic in person.

14        Q.   You just mentioned "or the duty officer."  Of which level of

15     command are you referring to the duty officer of?

16        A.   The duty officer at the command of the Main Staff.  My

17     explanation about confidentiality was meant to explain also that all

18     communications that we used were not secure and they could not be used

19     for passing on confidential information.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I was just reminded that it might be

21     break time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break.  The witness may follow the

23     usher.  We'd like to see you back, Mr. Indjic, in 20 minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter past 12.00.

Page 25123

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   Mr. Indjic, since we have your Karadzic statement on the screen,

 8     I just wanted to go to one other paragraph in it before we resume with

 9     the topic we were discussing.  In paragraph 58 of your Karadzic

10     statement, it indicates that you stated:

11             "The work of liaison officers precludes any possibility of

12     independent decision-making ... as a liaison officer, I'm in a position

13     to propose the solution to a problem ... but I can't decide on the

14     solution."

15             Is that an accurate statement?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do I understand correctly from that that you had no independent

18     authority to decide how to respond to a protest or a request in your

19     position as a liaison officer?  You had to respond according to how you

20     were instructed from your superiors.

21        A.   I had to reply in accordance with the response of the person or

22     the institution to whom the protest was addressed.

23        Q.   That's a more broad statement.  Specifically, if it was addressed

24     to General Mladic and General Mladic told you how to respond, you were

25     bound by those instructions; correct?

Page 25124

 1        A.   I've never had a case where I would receive directly from

 2     General Mladic my instructions as to how to respond.  The protests that

 3     were addressed to Pale received replies from the Main Staff always in

 4     writing.

 5        Q.   We'll go through some examples, and I'll revisit this.  Since you

 6     were a member of the SRK command, how would you inform General Galic or

 7     General Milosevic of the protests you received?

 8        A.   If the protest was in writing, I would hand it to him.  If it was

 9     a verbal protest, I would pass it on to the commander or, if the

10     commander was away, then to the duty officer.

11        Q.   And you followed that procedure during both the time of

12     General Galic and General Milosevic?

13        A.   That was the standard procedure.

14        Q.   Would the protests ever be discussed at the morning SRK command

15     meetings?

16        A.   In the period when I attended morning briefings, the meetings did

17     not discuss protests.

18        Q.   Is it correct that all protests that were directed to a higher

19     level of command were also forwarded to the level of command that the

20     protest referred to?  To give you an example, if a protest regarding VRS

21     activities in Sarajevo was sent to a member of the Main Staff, would that

22     protest also be forwarded to the SRK commander?

23        A.   I don't know.  I cannot answer that question.  I don't know

24     whether that was a rule for those who were sending the protests.  I

25     really don't know.

Page 25125

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at one of your previous statements.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31180,

 3     page 51.

 4        Q.   And while that's coming up, Mr. Indjic, is it correct that you

 5     provided an interview or you sat for an interview with the Office of the

 6     Prosecutor in April of 2001?

 7        A.   It's correct that I had an interview with Barry Hogan, the

 8     investigator, but I cannot recall the date.  I do know that it was

 9     Barry Hogan.  The surname was entered incorrectly.  It's Hogan.  Okay.

10        Q.   Sir, I'm going to an answer that you provided during the course

11     of this interview which is in the middle of the page.  I'll read it to

12     you.  Your answer was:

13             "In principle, I can say that all protests that arrived at the

14     higher level were also forwarded to the level that the protest referred

15     to.  And together with that, if necessary, the protests were accompanied

16     by corresponding orders from the higher level to the lower level on what

17     to do further."

18             Sir, that is what you told Investigator Hogan; correct?

19        A.   Excellent.  And you are in the right place, and if you read

20     carefully what is written here, you can see that it was not the protest

21     from UNPROFOR that would be sent to two different levels but it would --

22     if it were sent to the higher level, then that higher level would pass it

23     down to the lower level, the part that referred to the lower level, with

24     some sort of adequate order about what had to be done in respect of that

25     protest.

Page 25126

 1        Q.   Is it correct that the commander of the SRK, whether it was

 2     General Galic or General Milosevic, that they would be informed of the

 3     details of a protest even if the protest letter was not directly to them?

 4        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know the answer to that question.

 5     What the communication was between the corps commander and the chief of

 6     the Main Staff and his assistant, I can't answer that.

 7             MR. WEBER:  If we could please zoom out on this page.  I'll come

 8     back to it.  And I'll find -- I'm sorry, Your Honours.  Thank you for

 9     your patience.  I don't have the specific point in the transcript.

10        Q.   And I'll come right back to that, sir.  Is it correct that you

11     received and forwarded requests or complaints from other Bosnian Serb

12     institutions to members of the VRS?

13        A.   The question is not clear to me.  Serbs lodging protests with

14     Serbs?  It's not clear to me.

15        Q.   Yes.  Did you receive any protests from Bosnian Serb institutions

16     to the VRS?

17        A.   I never saw a protest like that.

18        Q.   Is it correct that you not only had to deal with liaison duties

19     for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps but you also had to deal with liaison

20     duties for the other corps and units and sometimes even political

21     entities?

22        A.   The most precise answer would be that I was working on duties of

23     liaison officer for all those who needed to contact anyone in the

24     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps sector, because the bulk of political and

25     military negotiations took place in the neutral zone of the Sarajevo

Page 25127

 1     airport.  As for this specific question, I did not carry out liaison

 2     officer duties for other corps, but frequently I was engaged in

 3     organising various meetings of the political leadership.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. WEBER:  While we have the interview in front of us, could we

 6     go to page 6.  And actually, if we could go on to the next page, to

 7     page 7.  There it is at the top of the page.

 8        Q.   Sir, during your interview, the question posed to you through the

 9     interpreter was:

10             "And if I've understood correctly, this means that your duties

11     were not only liaison duties relating to the Romanija-Sarajevo Corps, but

12     also to all other corps and units, including even political sides,

13     contacts?"

14             Your answer was:

15             "Er, in a large number of cases."

16             Is that what you said during your interview?

17        A.   I probably did because that's what it says there, but what I

18     meant was going beyond the confines of the Romanija-Sarajevo Corps

19     because I worked as a liaison officer for the main corps, some political,

20     civilian authorities, but I didn't work for other corps.

21        Q.   No, I understand that you were assigned to the SRK, but do you

22     understand my questions relate to your function as a liaison officer and

23     that you would receive protests and transmit requests relayed to the

24     other corps as well.  Do you understand that?

25        A.   No, I did not receive requests relating to other corps because

Page 25128

 1     there was a liaison officer office at the main corps.  Other corps also

 2     had their own liaison officers.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. WEBER:  If we could just go back to the earlier reference

 5     that I was seeking to have.  It's page 53 of this document.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the meantime, I would like to clarify one

 7     word.

 8             In your last answer, Mr. Indjic, at least that was the

 9     interpretation, you said:  "... because there was a liaison officer

10     office at the main corps."  What do you mean by "main corps"?  If it

11     correctly represents what you said.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not main corps.  Main Staff.

13     The Main Staff in Han Pijesak.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Mr. Indjic, I'd now like to take you to a question that was posed

17     through the interpreter as -- it's at the bottom of the page in front of

18     you.

19             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have it enlarged.

20        Q.   It's -- the question was:

21             "However, as you said earlier, er, after the protests were filed,

22     they would be forwarded to General Galic and there would be no reason for

23     him not to have been aware of the filed protests."

24             Your answer was recorded as:

25             "There would be no reason.  Only if, if he was not physically"

Page 25129

 1     present "there at the moment."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You added the word "present."

 3             MR. WEBER:  Oh, thank you, Your Honour.  I apologise.  I'll just

 4     re-read it just so it's clear on the record what the answer was.

 5        Q.   "There would be no reason.  Only if, if he was not physically

 6     there at the moment."

 7             That was what you said during your interview; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  I don't know what the question is.

 9        Q.   I was just right now just seeking to confirm your previous

10     statement, and you've done that.  Thank you.  During the war, can you

11     approximate how many protests you received from UNPROFOR and other

12     international entities?

13        A.   It's not very wise to make approximate conclusions because then

14     you would held to that, so I would rather avoid giving any approximate

15     evaluations.

16        Q.   Is it fair to say that it was a large number of protests?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, what one considers large, a large number,

19     is considered by another a small number.  So could you --

20             MR. WEBER:  I was -- I'm not -- I hear you and I was thinking

21     along those lines.

22        Q.   How frequently would you receive, let's start with, written

23     protests?

24        A.   That all depended on the combat situation on the ground, if there

25     was fierce fighting underway or not, so that again is a relative thing.

Page 25130

 1     They would come as needed.

 2        Q.   Are you able to give any type of approximate -- approximation of

 3     how frequently you would receive protests orally?  Every day, every week,

 4     every two weeks, once a year?

 5        A.   Sometimes it would be every day, sometimes it would be once a

 6     month.  It all depended on the situation on the ground.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that you received protests for both small and big

 8     incidents?  And what I mean by that, I mean small day-to-day events, and

 9     big meaning events that were being, let's say, widely covered in the

10     media?

11        A.   I cannot answer that question because it's absolutely imprecise.

12     I don't know what you consider a small, what you consider a big incident.

13     We could say that the death of one person is a small incident, the death

14     of five people could be considered a big incident.  So I really don't

15     know how to answer unless you put a more specific question to me.

16        Q.   That's very fair.  Did you get -- some of the protest letters

17     that you received concerned shelling of specific areas of Sarajevo;

18     correct?

19        A.   I don't know.  I cannot answer the question.  It's still a very

20     general question.  I don't know if there was such protests or not.  It's

21     such a general question that I really cannot answer it.

22        Q.   If we could go to, actually, then, your prior transcript based on

23     that answer.

24             MR. WEBER:  It's the Galic transcript, which is uploaded under

25     65 ter 31178.  I ask that it not be broadcast.  I ask that it not be

Page 25131

 1     broadcast.

 2             Your Honour, I would note that this was in private session during

 3     the Galic proceedings.  I've asked for the transcript right now to be not

 4     broadcast.  I think that I could safely read the portion that I'm seeking

 5     to elicit.  It's on page 50 of that transcript.  However, if you'd like,

 6     I'd be happy to go into private session.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If we're not in private session, I think the

 8     transcript will be public.

 9             MR. WEBER:  I asked for it not --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Whatever you read --

11             MR. WEBER:  Well, yes, but --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So we move into private session.

13             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Very well.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25132











11  Page 25132 redacted.  Private session.















Page 25133

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document still on the screen shouldn't be

14     broadcast.

15             MR. WEBER:  Oh, yes, thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be removed from the screen.

17             MR. WEBER:  I'm grateful.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think still the portion on the transcript is

19     readable from the public gallery, so therefore we usually wait for one or

20     two minutes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole Prosecution team seems to be struggling

23     with the details of the technicalities of the curtains up or down.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. WEBER:  Just let us know if we need to assist at all since

Page 25134

 1     we're here.

 2        Q.   Mr. Indjic, I'd like to now discuss with you some specific

 3     aspects of your relationship with General Mladic.  Is it correct that you

 4     had over 100 conversations with General Mladic during the war?

 5        A.   Again, that would be an approximation.  There were a lot of

 6     conversations during meetings that were conducted, conversations at the

 7     command post.  I don't know how many of them happened.  I really couldn't

 8     say that with any kind of certainty.

 9        Q.   In your Karadzic testimony, on multiple occasions you responded

10     to answers by saying that things were "one of a hundred conversations I

11     had during the war with General Mladic as liaison officer."

12             MR. WEBER:  This is on Karadzic transcript page 32605.

13        Q.   Also on that page, you said:

14             "I said a little bit earlier that I spoke with General Mladic at

15     least a hundred times."

16             So do you agree that that's at least an accurate statement, that

17     you spoke with General Mladic at least a hundred times during the war?

18        A.   I agree that I gave this statement in the Karadzic case, and I

19     regret giving it because these are approximate numbers.  And I see that

20     everything that is said in an approximate way you are taking as a fact,

21     and I regret giving that statement.  However, I did give it.

22        Q.   Sir, I'm just asking if you said things and if you feel that they

23     should be corrected, please let us know.  And I think it's clear that --

24     that you were giving an approximate -- an approximation of at least

25     something on a previous occasion.  I'd like to move on.

Page 25135

 1             Did you -- did General Mladic ever call you during the war?

 2        A.   I don't remember that he asked for me personally.  It's possible,

 3     but I don't remember.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall any occasion where there was a phone call

 5     and you were brought to the phone and on the other line was

 6     General Mladic during the war?

 7        A.   Now you have reminded me.  I think that I was called.  I think

 8     that it was a telephone conversation at 2.00 in the morning, because I

 9     know that I was outside the command what I was called, and I came to the

10     command and we had that conversation.  However, I cannot remember now

11     what the circumstances were and what year, but I do remember that this

12     was at 2.00 in the morning.

13        Q.   Okay.  You're not even able to help us at all with whether it was

14     at the beginning of the war, the end of the war?

15        A.   No, I cannot.  But the specific time when the conversation took

16     place helped me to remember that the conversation had taken place.

17        Q.   In paragraph 26 of your statement in this case, which is D614,

18     you state:

19             "I was personally present as a liaison officer at a large number

20     of meetings between General Mladic and UNPROFOR representatives."

21             Are you able to provide anything more specific of that statement,

22     approximately how many meetings or how frequent these meetings were?  Are

23     you able to provide us any further information about that?

24        A.   There were - and once again we're approximating here - but let's

25     say that there were at least five such meetings because in the attempt to

Page 25136

 1     enable the process of creating conditions for a cease of hostilities,

 2     military workgroups were formed which dealt with questions of

 3     cease-fires.  So when an agreement was achieved at a lower level, then

 4     the commanders of the warring parties would come to verify the agreement

 5     and sign it.  For example, this was the case --

 6        Q.   We'll discuss the specifics --

 7        A.   -- of the demilitarisation of Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   We'll discuss the specifics here in a little bit.  I just want to

 9     understand the dynamics before I discuss the specifics with you of

10     certain occasions.  Is it correct that you would sometimes serve as

11     General Mladic's interpreter at meetings?

12        A.   Depending on whom he had a meeting with.  If it was UNPROFOR

13     representatives, they had their own interpreter so that my job would be

14     to monitor the accuracy of the interpretation because in war, everything

15     is possible and it was possible for the interpreter to deliberately

16     misinterpret.  If he had some direct talks, I could also serve as an

17     interpreter.  I don't remember if there were such cases with

18     General Mladic.  I remember I once or a couple of times worked for

19     General Tolimir as an interpreter.  But I'm not sure if I was ever the

20     only interpreter for General Mladic.  I think it did happen once at

21     Borike near Rogatica [Realtime transcript read in error "Plitvice"].

22        Q.   Okay.  In the Galic case at transcript page 18667, you were asked

23     the following:

24             "Q.  Would you please answer the question.

25             "A.  I acted as interpreter at the meetings that General Mladic

Page 25137

 1     attended.

 2             "Q.  Yes.  And that's between September 1992 and August 1994, is

 3     that correct, including that period?"

 4             Your answer was:

 5             "Yes.

 6             "Q.  How often?"

 7             Your next answer:

 8             "On several occasions when these meetings were held.  Perhaps on

 9     five occasions."

10             Do you stand by your previous evidence?

11        A.   It's the same as I -- as what I said now.  But let me say about

12     my previous answer that it was mis-recorded.  Borike is not near

13     Plitvice.  It's near Rogatica.

14        Q.   Okay.  And I see that you corrected that.  Prior to a meeting, is

15     it correct that General Mladic --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just --

17             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

19             Witness, you said that your testimony today is the same as what

20     you said then.  Today you testified that, as far as you remember, you

21     once acted in Borike as the interpreter for General Mladic.  The previous

22     testimony says that your estimate was it may have been some five times

23     that you did so.  So it's not the same.  I just wanted to draw your

24     attention to that.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just explained

Page 25138

 1     that it's also a duty of the interpreter to monitor the interpretation

 2     provided by a person brought by General Rose, General Smith, or somebody

 3     else.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This is a more precise answer.  And when in

 5     the Galic case you said it happened five times, that included those

 6     occasions where you did not interpret but where you verified the accuracy

 7     of the interpretation of the other interpreters present.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Prior to a meeting, is it correct that General Mladic would

11     usually ask as much as possible about the person with whom he was

12     supposed to have a meeting?

13        A.   That's correct.  And that's perfectly natural because at all

14     meetings everybody tries to get as much background on their collocutors

15     as possible.

16        Q.   During these meetings, is it correct that you would also have

17     additional private conversations with General Mladic in the Serbian

18     language?

19        A.   I don't know what you mean by "private conversations," but we

20     certainly did speak to each other in Serbian.  I cannot understand from

21     your question what would be private or not private.

22        Q.   Well, just during the course of the meetings you would have

23     conversations between the two of you in Serbian that were not

24     translate -- being translated to the group as a whole; is that correct?

25        A.   Probably.  Probably.  But I don't know what's at issue here.

Page 25139

 1     What needed to be interpreted was interpreted.  Perhaps the General asked

 2     after my wife and children.

 3        Q.   Sir, that's not really what I'm asking about.  It's -- did you

 4     have conversations about what was being discussed at the meetings with

 5     General Mladic in Serbian during the course of the meetings?  So I'm not

 6     talking about random how is your family stuff, but would you -- would the

 7     two of you discuss the substance or the topics of what the meeting was

 8     about to yourselves during the course of the meetings?

 9        A.   I cannot say anything specific, but we probably did because

10     General Mladic, as an outstanding commander, always liked to hear the

11     opinions and suggestions of his subordinates.

12        Q.   And when you attended meetings with other members of the

13     Main Staff, whether it was General Milovanovic or General Tolimir, would

14     you also have conversations with them prior to the meeting and also --

15     well, prior to the meeting about the person or the matter that you were

16     to be meeting about?

17        A.   I would rather say yes than no.  I can't remember specifically

18     but I think so, because it would be only natural.

19        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to now turn into some specific matters.  Do you

20     agree that it is improper to block a medical evacuation of critically ill

21     civilian patients from leaving Sarajevo?

22        A.   I agree.  Not only from Sarajevo but anywhere.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31181 for

25     the witness.

Page 25140

 1        Q.   Sir, appearing before you is an article dated 23 November 1993

 2     from the French Press Agency in Paris entitled: "Bosnia Serbs Block

 3     Medical Evacuation."  In the article it states:

 4             "A 24-year-old Bosnian Serb with a serious chest wound from a

 5     sniper's bullet was amongst those who would die unless they were flown

 6     out of Sarajevo, said Peter Kessler, spokesperson for the Office of the

 7     UN High Commissioner for Refugees."

 8             The next paragraph describes an interaction with a Serb official

 9     at Lukavica barracks about the convoy, and in the following part of the

10     article it states:

11             "He said 'let him die,' said Kessler, quoting the response of the

12     Serb liaison officer Milenko Indjic to his description of the man's

13     medical condition."

14             Do you recall this incident?

15        A.   This is pure rubbish.  And I see you are showing me an AFP

16     article.  And I have to say, as I said in the previous trial, if you are

17     going to base your conclusions on newspaper stories, you are talking to a

18     dead man right now because the Sarajevo paper Oslobodjenje had published

19     in 1992 news that I was killed.

20        Q.   So in answer to my question are you saying you don't recall this

21     incident because it did not happen in your view?

22        A.   I'm not saying that I don't remember.  I'm saying that this is

23     nonsense.  I want you to show me the request for this convoy and a paper

24     where it says it's rejected.

25        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to this because of your comment.  You're saying

Page 25141

 1     that -- you're saying, "I'm not saying that I don't remember."  Do you

 2     remember a medical evacuation of critically ill individuals in

 3     November of 1993?

 4        A.   I remember the medical evacuation from Sarajevo to Italy of

 5     Ismet Bajramovic, known as Celo, a notorious Sarajevo criminal who harmed

 6     a lot of Serbian people, because I was personally present at this

 7     Sarajevo airport when his evacuation was approved.  He had a bullet in

 8     his heart.  If the evacuation of a notorious criminal was approved, then

 9     do you really believe that this story happened as presented here?

10        Q.   Well --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But let's stick to the facts.

12             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  What happened at another time is not the issue at

14     this moment.  Do you remember a medical evacuation where a 24-year-old

15     Bosnian Serb with a serious chest wound was not granted in November 1993?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  Because if any

17     request of that kind had been made, it would certainly have been

18     approved.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you don't remember, then this is a general

20     statement.

21             The witness, Mr. Weber, does not remember such an incident at

22     this moment.

23             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

24        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that this incident did happen and that

25     Mr. Kessler, an individual who is -- appears to not only be seeking to

Page 25142

 1     evacuate a 24-year-old Bosnian Serb but was also looking to evacuate

 2     14 patients total including two children and three women along with 17 of

 3     their relatives.  I put it to you that this event did happen and

 4     Mr. Kessler has no reason to make this up.  Do you have any reason to

 5     believe that he is?

 6        A.   I'm telling you that this is a lie and that it's you who is

 7     fabricating.  Show me a request for medical evacuation and I will agree.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I again stop you.  Earlier you said you don't

 9     remember such an incident, although the question was a bit composite.  Do

10     you know Mr. Kessler?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise for my

12     emotional reaction.  This claim is a personal insult to me.

13             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Mr. Kessler, I remember the

15     name but I can't put a face to it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Are you in a position to tell us whether or

17     not Mr. Kessler would have any reason either to make things up or don't

18     you know?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember ever to have said - and I'm not

21     suggesting you did but I'm asking you - do you remember ever to have said

22     that someone -- you'd rather let someone die than to let him go?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly never said that, and I

24     don't remember that any medical evacuation had ever been refused.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

Page 25143

 1             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour, I'd just tender this document into

 2     evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31181 receives number P6710,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P6710 is admitted.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'll try to squeeze in one more document

 8     before the break.

 9             Could the Prosecution please have P04624 for the witness.

10        Q.   Mr. Indjic, before you is a 21 March 1995 UNPROFOR memorandum

11     concerning a meeting between Colonel De Kermabon and General Milosevic at

12     the Lukavica headquarters.  According to the document, in the second

13     page, you were present for this meeting.  I just want to give you a

14     second to orient yourself to the memorandum, and could you let us know do

15     you recall this meeting?

16        A.   I know Colonel De Kermabon very well, but somehow I can't

17     remember that I attended this meeting nor do I see any indication of that

18     in this document.

19             MR. WEBER:  For the sake of the witness, could we have page 2 of

20     the document so we can also look at that, also, in the B/C/S version and

21     English.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see that I was there, but I

23     can't recall it.

24             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  If we could go back to page 1 in both

25     versions.

Page 25144

 1        Q.   In item 2 related to the security at the airport, the memo

 2     discusses that for over a week the aircraft arriving and departing at the

 3     airport were engaged by Serbian forces, including an event involving

 4     rocket fire on the 19th of March.  Before I further go on, does this help

 5     your recollection at all about this meeting, this particular matter?

 6        A.   I'm really sorry.  I can't remember.  I mean, I don't rule out

 7     any of what is written here, but I really can't remember this meeting.

 8        Q.   Okay.  The memo then states:

 9             "After some discussion, General Milosevic said he would ensure

10     that his forces around the airport refrain from firing on aircraft.  This

11     was based upon the concept that Muslims would not be on the

12     incoming/outgoing flights."

13             Do you recall General Milosevic not wanting Muslims either

14     arriving or leaving Sarajevo on flights from the airport?

15        A.   I don't remember that.

16        Q.   You have no reason to dispute that this accurately represents

17     what General Milosevic communicated at the time?

18        A.   No, I have no reason to dispute it, but I just have no

19     recollection of this meeting.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I see we're at the time for the break.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time for a break.

22             Mr. Indjic, would you please follow the usher.  We'd like to see

23     you back in 20 minutes.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes

Page 25145

 1     to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.14 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I was going to move on to another

 6     document, but I didn't know if Your Honours have any questions on this.

 7     No.  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not as far as I'm concerned.  No.  Then perhaps

 9     you already ask it to be brought to our screen, unless you want the

10     witness not to see it when he enters.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31190.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, may I proceed?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Mr. Indjic, before you is a 29 June 1995 memorandum from Viktor -

17     excuse me for the pronunciation here - Bezrouchenko --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Bezrouchenko.

19             MR. WEBER:  Greatly appreciate it as always.

20        Q.   To David Holland concerning a meeting with you in Lukavica.  Just

21     like before, I'd like to give you a fair opportunity to just review the

22     document and orient yourself and let us know if you recall this meeting.

23        A.   I remember it vaguely.  I remember there was a problem after the

24     closing of the bridge at Grbavica that Colonel Bezrouchenko came.

25        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to actually direct your attention to subsection b

Page 25146

 1     of the memorandum related to the BiH Army offensive.  In this paragraph

 2     it relates what you said and indicates you stated:

 3             "Yesterday's attack in the area of Nedzarici was initiated by

 4     Serbs who have now adopted a new strategy.  This strategy is to clench

 5     their grip of urban Sarajevo."

 6             Before continuing, do you see this passage?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Who informed you of this strategy?

 9        A.   I cannot remember whether the term "strategy" was used in the

10     conversation or not.  The strategy as such was certainly not the subject

11     of conversation.

12        Q.   It states:

13             "This strategy is to clench their grip of urban Sarajevo."

14             Who communicated that to you, to clench their grip of urban

15     Sarajevo?

16        A.   I'm telling you that strategy, in my view, did not exist, so

17     nobody could convey that strategy to me.  I can't tell you how each part

18     of the conversation was interpreted and what we discussed specifically,

19     but when you read the whole talk, you can see that we discussed all the

20     combat activity and the Serb response to Muslim actions.

21        Q.   We're going to go through it, but I just want to stop part by

22     part so we don't get too confused.  How did you know the attack in the

23     area of Nedzarici was initiated by Serbs?

24        A.   Probably from the meetings at the corps command or from talking

25     to somebody from the corps command.

Page 25147

 1        Q.   According to the next sentence, you stated that:

 2             "The BSA is going to nibble away Bosnian positions in the city in

 3     response for every hill the Bosnians seize around Sarajevo."

 4             How were you informed that this was going to be done by the SRK?

 5        A.   Probably at the meetings in the corps command.  That's quite

 6     natural.

 7        Q.   According to the following sentences, you said that:

 8             "UNPROFOR might see BSA tanks close to PTT very soon."

 9             And then according to the memorandum, you emphasized the

10     importance of the battle around Sarajevo to the outcome of the war.  Were

11     these your personal opinions or statements based on instructions you were

12     provided?  You've explained to us that you had no discretion.  On what

13     basis were you saying this?

14        A.   First of all, nobody took any statements from me.  That's one

15     thing.  This is a conversation between David Harland and

16     Viktor Bezrouchenko with me.  In that conversation I had the right to my

17     own opinion, to share it or not share it.  So everything I said in this

18     conversation is what I presented.  On what basis I knew that, that's a

19     different issue.

20        Q.   Okay.  The last sentence of this subsection states:

21             "When I asked him what type of weapon was used to attack the TV

22     building yesterday, he," in reference to you, "smiled and said that the

23     BSA had an assortment of weapons."

24             Is it correct that you smiled and made this statement because you

25     knew the SRK hit the RTV building the day before, the 28th of June, 1995?

Page 25148

 1        A.   I really cannot answer this question.  I smiled a couple of times

 2     in the course of today.  Whether I smiled on that day, I can't remember.

 3        Q.   When you said the BSA had an assortment of weapons --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Part of your question was about the smile.  Second

 7     was the reason for the smile.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you further seek an answer to that portion of

10     the question?

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Is it correct you knew that the SRK had hit the RTV building the

13     day before, the 28th of June, 1995, when you made this statement?

14        A.   I'm saying again:  I didn't give any statements and nobody took

15     any statements from me.  Whether the TV building was hit or not, I cannot

16     remember now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's an answer to the question, that you

18     don't remember.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   According to this memorandum you said the BSA had an assortment

22     of weapons.  Is it correct that you were aware that the SRK possessed

23     modified air bombs at the time of this meeting, on the 29th of June,

24     1995?

25        A.   I don't see that I mentioned modified air bombs anywhere here.

Page 25149

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it's not true that I knew.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- could you please answer the question.

 4     Irrespective of what the document says, the document talks about a

 5     variety of weapons, but were you aware of the BSA having modified air

 6     bombs at their disposal?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I tender the document into evidence,

10     65 ter 31190.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31190 receives number P6711,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have still a question in relation to this

16     document before it disappears from the screen.

17             Can you tell me who was present during that meeting which is

18     mentioned in this memorandum we see on the screen?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say any more than I read

20     in the memorandum.  Harland, Bezrouchenko, and myself.  I don't know if

21     anybody else was present.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't see that in the memorandum.  What is your

23     recollection?  I'm asking you for your recollection.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who was there.  I can

25     see in the memorandum that Bezrouchenko and I were there and that it is

Page 25150

 1     sent to Harland.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I can see that as well and that is the reason why

 3     I'm asking you.  You said earlier, this is on page 71, line 7 and 8:

 4             "This is a conversation between David Harland and Viktor

 5     Bezrouchenko with me."

 6             That is what you said.  When I'm looking at this memorandum, it

 7     shows that Bezrouchenko sent this memo to Mr. Harland [Realtime

 8     transcript read in error "Bezrouchenko"], mentioning in the first line:

 9             "This morning I," referring to Mr. Bezrouchenko, "had a meeting

10     with Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic in Lukavica."

11             Do you recall any meeting you had directly with Mr. Bezrouchenko

12     in the absence of Mr. Harland?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're absolutely correct,

14     Your Honour.  I made a mistake.  This is evidently a meeting of

15     Bezrouchenko and myself, so I cannot say that I recall this specific

16     meeting, but I had many meetings with him.  This was not the only one.

17     But I remember that it was a question of after the closure of closing the

18     Bratstvo i Jedinstvo Bridge, how to resolve the problem of civilians that

19     remained on each side.  The bridge was opened for the civilians.  So it's

20     my error when I mentioned Harland.  The reason why I specifically cannot

21     say anything about this meeting with Bezrouchenko is that there were many

22     meetings with Bezrouchenko.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you recall any meeting with Mr. Bezrouchenko

24     when you talked about hitting the TV tower?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall that meeting, no.

Page 25151

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Did you participate in meetings related to the state commission

 4     for the exchange of prisoners of war?

 5        A.   In principle, yes, only when it was necessary to organise

 6     something in the technical sense, because there was an official state

 7     commission headed by Dragan Bulajic and he dealt with all the things that

 8     had to do with exchanges.

 9        Q.   What were you organising in the technical sense?

10        A.   Since the meetings were mostly held, as I said earlier, on

11     neutral territory at Sarajevo airport, it was necessary to co-ordinate

12     the time, to organise the transport, these technical details about the

13     way in which people would get to the place of the meeting.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to make a short correction of the

15     transcript.

16             MR. WEBER:  Sure.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Page 73, line 23, I said it shows that

18     Bezrouchenko sent this memo to Mr. Harland.  This should be correct.  And

19     not Mr. Bezrouchenko.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   During these meetings, is it correct that it would be discussed,

23     locations where people were being detained?

24        A.   I say again, in principle, I did not take part in exchange

25     negotiations in the professional sense but in the technical sense, in

Page 25152

 1     organising the meetings.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Before we move on to another document, do you agree that

 3     it is improper to hold women, children, and elderly men in detention

 4     facilities?

 5        A.   Yes, I absolutely agree.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, actually for this next document, if we

 7     could go into private session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- Mr. Weber, is it possible for -- to see what is

12     written at the bottom of this page that is on the screen under the

13     heading:  "Corridor via Igman"?

14             MR. WEBER:  I can make it out with some difficulty.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  We don't have a copy that would be clearer?

16             MR. WEBER:  We can provide copies of the document to the Chamber,

17     if you'd like -- or --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm interested in that sentence.

19             MR. WEBER:  Or if the court officer could blow up the last

20     exhibit.  I believe it is P6711.  And, Your Honour, I believe you were

21     inquiring about page 1 at the very bottom.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the English version.

23             MR. WEBER:  In the English version.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In the English version.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which is not on the screen.

Page 25153

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you say you don't have a clearer copy?

 2             MR. WEBER:  It is -- it is still difficult.  Not uploaded

 3     electronically.  In a hard copy I can make out most of the words except

 4     probably for the fourth or fifth one.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm missing --

 6             MR. WEBER:  This is -- yeah.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- two words, as a matter of fact.  I think that all

 8     the rest is --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- legible.  What I see is that the previous lines

11     ends with "to cut a corridor along this," and then there is two words

12     where the second may be something of defence, the first one I have

13     difficulties in reading, and then it continues: "... will meet fierce and

14     determined resistance of the BSA ..."

15             That seems to be --

16             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, I believe that -- Ms. Stewart

17     informs me - I can see on her screen also - that if it's made just the

18     English version and it's blown up, that bottom portion specifically, even

19     more than this, that the full sentence may be legible.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  My staff member, who is always of great assistance,

21     suggested that it could read:

22             "Along this route by force will meet fierce and determined

23     resistance..."

24             If the parties could agree.

25             MR. WEBER:  That's what I'm reading on Ms. Stewart's screen right

Page 25154

 1     now, so do I agree with that.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any dispute about this last line,

 3     Mr. Stojanovic?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We just wanted to check,

 5     Your Honours, because we do have the B/C/S translation, so we wanted to

 6     see if that corresponds to the original and then we will --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now you --

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- state our position on that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The proper order is the other way around - that is,

10     to check in the original whether the translation is accurate or not.

11     Let's move on.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I asked if we could move into private

13     session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25155











11  Pages 25155-25163 redacted.  Private session.















Page 25164

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Mr. Indjic, whatever you have heard or seen in private session is

11     confidential.  You should not only now but never share that information

12     with anyone else.  That is an order by this Court.  And heavy penalties

13     can be imposed if you violate such an order.

14             I also instruct you, but that's separate from what I just said,

15     that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever

16     about your testimony, whether you gave it today or whether it's still to

17     be given tomorrow.  And we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at

18     9.30.

19             By the way, this -- the first order I gave you is without any

20     time-limit.  It's valid forever.  The instruction I gave you as far as

21     discussing your testimony is a different one and that will extend up to

22     the moment where you have finally concluded your -- giving your evidence.

23             We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same

24     courtroom.  You may now follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 25165

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

 2     Wednesday, the 3rd of September, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 3     courtroom, II.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of

 6                           September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.