1 Tuesday, 2 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 No preliminaries, therefore we'll continue.
12 We were informed, Ms. MacGregor, that you expect to finish your
13 cross-examination in the first session.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Bukva.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bukva, I'd like to remind you that you're still
18 bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning
19 of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
20 nothing but the truth. Ms. MacGregor will now continue her
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 WITNESS: MILORAD BUKVA [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor: [Continued]
2 Q. Good morning, Colonel Bukva. I see that you don't have a copy of
3 your statement in front of you.
4 MS. MacGREGOR: I don't know if the Defence has a copy.
5 Q. If you'd like one, I am going to ask you a couple of questions
6 referring to your statement.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
8 Q. I'm going to be asking you about paragraphs 34 and 35 of your
9 statement about the Vaso Miskin incident on 27 May 1992. I see that
10 you've opened the statement.
11 Now according to your statement, the information obtained by you
12 and your service showed that Mirza Jamakovic planted an explosive device
13 in a building across from the bread kiosk. Who was your source for that
15 A. The source for that information was only one. It was a prewar
16 operative source that I had.
17 Q. Do you remember the name of that source?
18 A. No, because I - how shall I say? - inherited it under a pseudonym
19 and not a name and surname.
20 Q. You knew the source by a pseudonym, is that what you mean?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. You also state that Muslim authorities attempted to liquidate
23 Jamakovic and that he lost his hand in the explosion that occurred when
24 they attempted to kill him. When did you learn about that incident?
25 A. Considering that this incident was an extreme interest, it caused
1 an important reaction among the international community. The Main Staff
2 of the Army of Republika Srpska ordered that this incident be thoroughly
3 investigated because the VRS was, of course, blamed for what had happened
4 in Vase Miskina Street.
5 Q. If I can --
6 A. My service --
7 Q. -- stop you. I believe when you're talking about this incident
8 in your answer that you're referring to the initial Vaso Miskin incident.
9 My question is: When did you learn about the explosion that resulted in
10 Jamakovic losing his hand?
11 A. Oh, sorry, I didn't understand. I just wanted to say that we
12 worked on this case intensively. And the first information, the one I
13 mentioned in the statement, we'd received perhaps two or three months
14 after the Vaso Miskin incident. So if it happened on the 27th May, three
15 months later we already had this information, roughly. I cannot be
16 precise. If it happened in the end of May, we had this information
17 sometime towards the end of August.
18 Q. And then when did you learn about the incident where Jamakovic
19 lost his hand?
20 A. I just explained. The information that he lost his hand I
21 received perhaps three months after the Vaso Miskin incident. Now when
22 he lost his hand, on which date, when the assassination attempt took
23 place, I don't know.
24 Q. You state that his son was killed by a sniper after that because
25 Jamakovic would not stop talking about the Vaso Miskin incident. When
1 did you learnt about the death of his son?
2 A. That was later. Later. In another contact with that source when
3 he called from the city. I don't know exactly when, but it was later. I
4 cannot pin-point a date because it all happened 22 years ago.
5 Q. And when you said "contact with that source," are you referring
6 to the same source with the pseudonym that you referred to earlier?
7 A. Yes, yes. It's the same source but it was a different contact, a
8 different occasion when he made contact and let me know about the death
9 of Jamakovic's son.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, should we spend a lot of time on
11 paragraph 34 and 35 where it's deprived of any facts. If I read, for
12 example, that the son was allegedly killed by a Chetnik sniper.
13 "The boy was killed at the place where it was absolutely
14 impossible to hit by infantry weapons from the VRS positions."
15 We don't even know where he was, so there is no way to test this
16 evidence and for that reason the probative value is close to zero. The
17 Defence should be aware of that, but apparently they are insufficiently
18 aware of that. And to cross-examine in detail, and I know that you
19 didn't use this line, but paragraph 34 and 35 is, "We received
20 information which shows," what's the information, how does it show? We
21 all know by now that it took Trial Chambers in this Tribunal up to weeks
22 or months to establish the details of an explosion of -- it's totally
23 useless. And if the Defence isn't aware of that, then that's no reason
24 for the Prosecution then in cross-examination to just join the Defence in
25 considering this to be evidence which assists the Chamber. I hope, of
1 course, that both parties will become aware of that.
2 What we see from these paragraphs is that some information
3 reached a witness on which he based some conclusions. That's all. Let's
4 move on.
5 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Can I please have 65 ter 31143.
7 Q. Colonel Bukva, as we wait for this to load on the screen, this is
8 a request dated 19 January 1993 in which Major Dusan Savcic requests the
9 use of 20 Muslims to fortify the front line position at Zlatiste. Do you
10 have a chance to see that on the screen in front of you?
11 Perhaps if the B/C/S version was a bit larger, it may be easier
12 for you to see.
13 I draw your attention to the bottom left to the handwritten
14 approval signed by Colonel Lugonja. Are you able to see that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did Colonel Lugonja's authority include the work assignments of
17 Muslim detainees?
18 A. No. Remand prisons and prisons were in the jurisdiction of the
19 command, the garrison command. In this case it's just an approval, and
20 here in this case we read, "I give consent," which doesn't mean that he
21 approved it. Only the garrison command could approve it.
22 Colonel Lugonja did not have such powers. He was only consulted by the
23 command and this is proof. He only says that he agrees. He gives his
24 consent, whereas the decision was in the hands of the command.
25 Q. Your interpretation is different than our English translation, so
1 perhaps the Defence and the Prosecution can consult if we feel there is a
2 significant difference.
3 Colonel Bukva, in English the translation reads: "I approve the
4 engagement of the detainees," and you've read that as "I give consent."
5 Is that correct?
6 A. In the Serbian version that I'm reading, in the lower left corner
7 it says: "I agree that prisoners be engaged in works" or "I give
8 consent." "I agree" or "give consent." And then he signs it,
9 Colonel Lugonja.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question. That's the
12 handwritten portion. Now, the document itself, and I read is addressed
13 to Lugonja, Lugonja, and the Chief of Staff writes:
14 "We are requesting that you let us temporarily use 20 Muslims on
15 the 19th of January ..."
16 There is a request that Mr. Lugonja let the Chief of Staff, the
17 command of the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade use detainees. That is
18 clearly asking for a decision, for approval, for consent, whatever you
19 want to call it, but the document, the request clearly indicates that
20 Savcic needs a decision by Lugonja that he allows this to happen or that
21 he let them use those detainees. Would you agree with me that that's the
22 gist of this request?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree with you. And that's
24 exactly what's written here, "I give consent." But I emphasize the
25 second part of the answer, but the right to approve these prisoners was
1 in the exclusive jurisdiction of the command. So Colonel Lugonja was not
2 able to order how the prisoners would be used. He could only say, "I do
3 not agree," and then the commander would not allow it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So using those prisoners was dependent on the
5 consent, agreement, even if not ordered but at least was dependent on the
6 consent of Lugonja.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it didn't have to be
8 exclusively dependent on his consent.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person who actually decided
11 just wanted to hear --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I stop you. You add a word to what I said,
13 "exclusively." If you change my words, it's of no use to answer my
14 questions. I said they could be used dependent on the consent and, of
15 course, if Savcic would want that as well, and it's clear from this
16 request that he does so. Any further comment on the matter?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking I agree with
18 you, but if you allow I can add that situations like this were rare.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was rare that this was allowed.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not seeking that kind of information.
22 I've one other question for you. Do you think it legitimate to
23 use detainees to work on the front line in -- to make fortifications? Or
24 would that be illegal?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that in this specific
1 case, these prisoners were not exposed to enemy fire from the other side
2 in this specific case.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No, I -- stop.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their engagement was --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I wasn't asking you whether they were exposed to
6 enemy fire. I put a general question to you whether it's legal to use
7 prisoners to -- for fortification works at the front line.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that's defined
9 anywhere in the law.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I couldn't give you an exact
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 I'd like to tender 65 ter 31143 into evidence, please.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31143 receives number P6709,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
20 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 I'd also like for the record to draw the attention to the
22 evidence already in the record on the Vaso Miskin incident and what
23 happened to Jamakovic. And that's the evidence of Ekrem Suljevic,
24 including P889, e-court page 11, paragraph 66 and 67; and also an
25 investigative report of the incident in which his son was killed at
2 And the Prosecution has no further questions for this witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.
4 Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination?
5 MR. LUKIC: I might have only one on this Jamakovic, 34 and 35,
6 from this gentleman's statement.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bukva, good morning again. Do you remember
9 that I put it to you that Jamakovic's son died in a mine explosion? When
10 we were talking.
11 A. When I talked about what I knew about it, I believe you mentioned
12 something like that.
13 Q. Paragraph 35 of your statement, you say allegedly from a Chetnik
14 sniper. That is the information as you received it.
15 A. I've already said I received that information from an operative
16 source on the ground.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We don't have any further questions
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
21 Mr. Bukva -- well, I may take it that the re-examination has not
22 triggered any further need for questions by the Prosecution.
23 Mr. Bukva, this concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like
24 to thank you very much for coming to The Hague, for having answered the
25 questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I
1 wish you a safe return home again. You may follow the usher.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could the next witness be kept standby. I'd like to
5 briefly move into private session only for a very short moment.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: And we are in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
23 I filled the screen a little bit now so that the curtains can be
24 opened more quickly.
25 Mr. Lukic, you said the witness was not yet --
1 MR. LUKIC: I doubt that he is here.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And you suggested we take the break first.
3 MR. LUKIC: I do.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll do so, and perhaps then we take the
5 break --
6 MR. LUKIC: Well --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Then no need for the break --
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has arrived.
11 Then could the witness be escorted into the court.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, may I take this opportunity to ask
13 for permission to leave.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but under one condition: That you open the
15 second curtain as well.
16 Thank you so much, Ms. MacGregor. You are excused.
17 Apparently, Mr. Lukic, Mr. Mladic wants to consult with you.
18 Mr. Lukic, you -- is there anything that needs our attention --
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 MR. LUKIC: Something was taken from General Mladic and he would
22 like to have it back, but I think it's --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what was --
24 MR. LUKIC: -- maybe better to discuss --
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- taken from him --
1 MR. LUKIC: It's a pin, one pin, a tie pin.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Maybe for security reasons that -- and it
3 will be returned to him, I take it. Further details to be dealt with.
4 Good morning, Mr. Indjic. I saw that the first thing you did was
5 to greet the accused. That's not commonly done in this courtroom. You
6 appear before a Court. Would you please refrain from any communications
7 even not verbally with the accused.
8 Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a
9 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
10 nothing but the truth. Is text is handed out to you now. May I invite
11 you to make that solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: MILENKO INDJIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Indjic.
17 Mr. Weber.
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, just as a preliminary, I wanted to
19 notify the Chamber of two things. The first thing being that I believe
20 in terms of my cross estimate, I'll be an hour less in time at least.
21 And the second thing, I just wanted to notify the Chamber that the
22 witness did receive a Rule 90(E) caution previously during his testimony
23 and we believe he should receive it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you know the approach of the Chamber, that not
25 knowing what questions will be put to the witness, that we leave it to
1 the parties whether it's appropriate to request the Chamber to give a
2 90(E) warning.
3 Mr. Stojanovic.
4 Mr. Indjic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll
5 find Mr. Stojanovic to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for
6 Mr. Mladic.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I just may ask
9 before I begin to have the usher take the summaries of the witness
10 statements that we need to provide to the interpreters, because I did not
11 manage to do that before I begin. I was short of time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, you were taken by surprise. That's
13 understandable under the present situation. Please proceed. Your
14 request is granted and the summaries will be distributed.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Indjic, good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. For the transcript, could you please slowly speak your name out
20 and your last name.
21 A. My name is Milenko Indjic.
22 Q. Mr. Indjic, did you provide a statement to General Mladic's
23 Defence, a written statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please see document
1 65 ter number 1D01759. I don't know if we need to wait for the usher
2 before we get the document.
3 Q. Mr. Indjic, on the left-hand side of the screen you see the B/C/S
4 version and on the right-hand side the English version of your statement.
5 My question to you is the following: Is the signature on the front page
6 of this signature [as interpreted] precisely your signature?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page,
11 Q. I will put the same question to you. Is the signature on this
12 page that you have in front of you your signature and is the date that is
13 written there written by your very own hand?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you that I put when you
16 provided the statement and after you have spoken the solemn declaration
17 in the courtroom today, would the answers to my questions be identical as
18 the answers you provided in your statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
22 tender the witness's statement with the 65 ter number 1D01759.
23 MR. WEBER: No objection.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01759 receives number D614,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, if the witness confirmation says something about
4 the number of pages, it sometime would be good to fill in the number of
5 pages. Please proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.
7 Thank you.
8 With your leave, Your Honours, I would like to read the summary
9 of the witness statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Milenko Indjic, with the
12 forming of the UNPROFOR mission in 1992 in the territory of the former
13 Yugoslavia, pursuant to an order of the then Federal Secretary for
14 National Defence, was appointed as liaison officer of the JNA in the
15 group for co-operation with UNPROFOR.
16 With the establishment of the Army of Republika Srpska, in view
17 of the fact that he lived in Sarajevo, he continued to carry out said
18 duties in Republika Srpska and he remained at that duty practically until
19 the end of the war.
20 He testified to the situation in Sarajevo before the war broke
21 out in 1992, about the arming and organising of Muslim paramilitary
22 forces, and about the blockade of Yugoslav People's Army barracks in
23 Sarajevo. After handing over the control over Sarajevo airport, which
24 passed from VRS hands to the UNPROFOR, he personally was aware of the
25 abuse of the mutual agreement and that the airport was used for the
1 military needs of the Muslim side, which is reflected in weapons and
2 ammunition supplies and enabling the Muslim military and civil leadership
3 to use the airport without any obstacles for their own needs.
4 He took part in most of the cease-fire negotiations and witnesses
5 the abuse of signed cease-fires by the B and H Army. He asserts that he
6 personally knew that the reports by military observers about the number
7 of shells fired around Sarajevo is not accurate because the data about
8 that was received from the warring parties and were frequently used for
9 media manipulation.
10 As liaison officer, he personally attended a large number of
11 meetings which were attended by General Mladic as well, and he testified
12 to the position and to the character of General Mladic as well as his
13 relationship towards the participants in the negotiations.
14 Finally, in his statement he notes that the UNPROFOR went beyond
15 its mandate before the NATO bombing of the positions of the VRS, and he
16 talked about the reasons why the order was issued to place them under
17 control, disarm them, and take away their communications means. He is
18 personally aware and will testify about the position of the VRS towards
19 these persons and the status and the treatment they had while they were
20 under the control of the VRS.
21 And now I would like the put some questions to the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Stojanovic, there is some guidance.
23 Having read the statement, having heard the summary of the
24 statement, I would urge you to focus on facts rather than on opinion.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now again look at
2 paragraph 14 of the witness statement, which is now D614, if I understood
3 correctly and noted it down correctly.
4 Q. Mr. Indjic, you have your statement in front of you. I would
5 like to ask you for a clarification of a part of your statement where you
6 say UNPROFOR allowed the tunnel to be built under the airport, which was
7 primarily used for the regrouping of military forces and its other
8 purpose, and then you continue.
9 My question is: Did you have any personal knowledge about the
10 work by the ABiH Army to dig a tunnel under the airport runway?
11 A. During a certain period, I personally received aerial photographs
12 from UNPROFOR of the Sarajevo airport where it was written in French that
13 they were confidential, and the position of the entrance to the tunnel
14 was marked on them, the direction of the tunnel, and the exit from the
15 tunnel. These photographs I handed over to the defence attorneys in the
16 trial of General Galic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you mind to answer the question. The
18 question was whether you have any personal knowledge about the work done
19 by the ABiH Army to dig the tunnel. So that is the army being involved
20 in digging the tunnel. Your answer may be -- contain very interesting
21 information but it is not an answer to the question. Could you please
22 answer the question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to the question in the
24 form that you have now put it is that I don't have any personal knowledge
25 about the digging of the tunnel, but I do have personal knowledge about
1 the existence of the tunnel.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is no dispute about the existence of the
3 tunnel, is there? So therefore, we don't have to deal with that.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. At any point in time during the work to dig the tunnel and after
7 the tunnel was dug, did the VRS lodge any protests about the tunnel with
9 A. After we received clear data that the tunnel existed, every
10 meeting of the corps commander with representatives of UNPROFOR also
11 dealt with that part where representatives of UNPROFOR were requested to
12 shut down the tunnel and prevent the regrouping of Muslim forces. These
13 protests would usually receive the following answer, that we were making
14 things up and that the tunnel did not exist.
15 Q. Were you personally present at any of the meetings when the
16 aerial photographs were discussed that you mentioned earlier?
17 A. I was present at a meeting at the corps command between
18 General Galic and the then commander of UNPROFOR Sector Sarajevo,
19 General Soubirou. After the protests stated by General Galic about the
20 tunnel, General Soubirou warned us with a laugh that we should not be
21 making things up about something that did not exist. I asked
22 General Galic for permission to bring the aerial photographs so that we
23 could show them to General Soubirou. When I brought these photographs, I
24 asked - and I must say I did it in a provocative way - I asked
25 General Soubirou to help us to understand what was written on the
1 photographs, because it was written in French, to which he got up very
2 angry and left the meeting.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at
5 paragraph 16 of your statement. In B/C/S at one point we'll have to move
6 to the next page. I'll say when.
7 Q. In your statement, Mr. Indjic, you say in paragraph 16:
8 "Observing the agreed cease-fires, the Serb side suffered large
9 losses because the Muslims would always breach the agreement ..."
10 Now let's move to the next page in B/C/S.
11 "... by opening fire or by performing engineering works to fix
12 their positions."
13 And then the last sentence:
14 "In the Sarajevo theatre of war, the Muslim forces took more
15 territory by digging in the periods of cease-fire than by all their
16 combat activities throughout the war."
17 My question is: What did you mean by "they took territory by
18 digging during cease-fires"?
19 A. From the very beginning of the war, I believe there were posters
20 all over Sarajevo under Muslim control saying, "We can dig our way to
21 victory." By digging during cease-fires, the Muslims were trying to
22 advance their positions by carrying out engineering works in such a way
23 as to occupy the space between confrontation lines, knowing that the
24 Serbs wouldn't open fire at them during cease-fires.
25 We had huge problems to explain to UNPROFOR that engineering
1 works also constitute a violation of the cease-fire agreement and
2 movements of positions also constitute a violation. We had to stop our
3 soldiers from opening fire when they saw that the enemy is advancing on
4 them, coming closer.
5 Q. These violations of the cease-fire by one signatory to the
6 agreement, did they lead to any protests to the UNPROFOR from your side?
7 A. On many occasions, at different levels, we warned the UNPROFOR
8 and brought to their attention the breaches of the cease-fire agreement
9 through engineering works. I have to explain to you one essential
10 feature of Serbs. The Serbs are very reluctant to complain, protest, and
11 ask somebody else to defend them. They usually defend themselves. But
12 it was our obligation to warn the UNPROFOR of what was going on.
13 Q. Did you do that?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up 65 ter 1D04175.
16 Page 1. Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Indjic, this is one of the documents that the command of the
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the 19th of February, 1994, sent to the
19 Main Staff. Could you please look at item 1, which says:
20 [As read] "Engineering works continued at Mojmilo towards
21 Sucura ... houses and the SVC Barracks towards the Jewish Cemetery to
22 Bosut and the Osmica from Sucura houses towards Nedzarici towards
23 Energoinvest from Dzemala Bijedic Street and in the sector of Sugreb
24 (Mount Igman)."
25 My question is: Are these engineering works precisely what you
1 were referring to?
2 A. That is what I meant. At item 1 of the regular combat reports
3 from corps to the Main Staff usually contains information about the
4 enemy, such is the format of the report. So in every period of
5 cease-fire you can analyse through regular combat reports, looking at
6 item 1, you can analyse what was going on on the ground.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be helpful if the two documents could be
8 enlarged a bit. The letters are very small. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Please look at paragraph 3. It says under subheading "Situation
11 on the ground," UNPROFOR activities. And the text below reads:
12 "A meeting was held in Lukavica between General Galic and
13 General Soubirou. The following chief problems were identified ..."
14 And then it goes on to say:
15 [As read] "The Muslims continue to violate the cease-fire
16 agreement by carrying out engineering works and opening fire at our
17 positions (Hadzici)."
18 My question is: These complaints and protests lodged by the
19 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to UNPROFOR over violations of the
20 cease-fire, were they verbal or written?
21 A. Both. It was possible to warn the UNPROFOR verbally or in
22 writing if no meetings had been scheduled and there was important
23 information to impart to UNPROFOR. We could always tell them about
24 something important. It was not necessary. It was not required to write
25 a report.
1 Q. These meetings between the commander of the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and high-ranking UNPROFOR officers, did they
3 require your presence as the liaison officer in the logistics of the
5 A. In the preparation and organisation of the meeting, somebody from
6 the group in charge of co-operation with international organisations had
7 to be present. If I was physically there, it was usually myself. And if
8 I was away, then somebody from my group would be there.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
10 tender 65 ter 1D04175.
11 MR. WEBER: No objection.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4175 receives number D615,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
16 Witness, we'll take a break. Therefore, would you please follow
17 the usher. We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the question came to my mind to what
20 extent most of what you dealt with is in dispute, that is, that
21 complaints were lodged, meetings were held, the existence of the tunnel
22 seems not to be in dispute. Even we have heard quite some evidence
23 through various, even Prosecution witnesses, on the matter, so I wonder
24 to what extent it's repetitive and I wonder to what extent it is a matter
25 of dispute. Would you please keep that in mind, especially if you ask
1 for more time than you indicated before.
2 We take a break and will resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be brought in.
6 The Chamber was informed that Mr. Mladic had difficulties with
7 the tie pin. It is exclusively a security matter. Security matters are
8 within the competence of the Registry; therefore, the Chamber will not
9 deal with it because it has no impact whatsoever on the court
10 proceedings. Therefore, we leave it to that.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I kindly ask that we call
14 up the following document in e-court, 65 ter 1D04157. I would likely us
15 to focus on paragraph 8. Let's just briefly stay on page 1 to see what
16 this document is about.
17 Q. Mr. Indjic, it's again a regular combat report from the command
18 of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps dated 4 March 1994. Now focus on
19 paragraph 8. It says in the subheading, "Conclusions, forecasts,
21 [As read] "The Muslims are still carrying out engineering works
22 at their positions digging trenches (roads) towards our positions, in
23 order to achieve the most favourable ... position possible in relation to
24 our forces. Despite regular warnings and protests sent to UNPROFOR
25 observers, the latter are unable to prevent the enemy's activities
1 completely which results in certain soldiers and commanding officers
2 being tempted to open fire even without the approval of their superior
4 I would like to ask you: Was this behaviour on the part of the
5 enemy something that constituted their obligations and a violation of the
6 cease-fire agreement?
7 A. It was as much a violation of the cease-fire agreement as if they
8 had opened fire.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I tender 1D04157.
10 MR. WEBER: No objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4157 receives number D616,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now let us see another document,
16 65 ter 1D04159.
17 Q. Mr. Indjic, this is a record of a meeting at the Sarajevo airport
18 with what the author described as the Chetnik side. The command of the
19 1st Corps of the BH Army made this report on 1st of January, 1995. And
20 it says that from the aggressor side there were Colonel Cedo Sladoje, as
21 Chief of Staff of the SRK, and you as the liaison officer.
22 General Gobillard opens the meeting, presents the main points, and then
23 Colonel Sladoje says: I have been informed by my scouts that our
24 agreement has not been observed, has not been honoured. When what we
25 agreed has been done, then I will sit down here.
1 General Gobillard responds: My scouts inform me that the
2 agreement has not been fulfilled. And he says also --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. -- in a way you have the right --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please. Can we go to the next page
7 in the English, please.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
9 Q. General Gobillard says:
10 [As read] "In a way you are right, but the DMZ shall be honoured.
11 We will tell you what has been withdrawn and what was not."
12 Will you please tell the Court what this meeting discussed and
13 what problem did Colonel Sladoje emphasize?
14 A. I remember this meeting. At this meeting we were supposed to
15 identify to what degree the agreement on the demilitarisation of
16 Mount Igman and Mount Bjelasnica had been implemented. What is important
17 is that this meeting was held in January 1995, while the agreement on
18 demilitarisation was signed in the second half of 1993.
19 From the record of this meeting, it is evident that Muslim forces
20 had not fully withdrawn from the demilitarised zone. That's what these
21 three letters mean, DMZ. Which means that over the course of 18 months,
22 the agreement failed to be implemented. And it speaks volumes about the
23 way the Muslim forces treated such agreements.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Stojanovic, on page 25, lines 20 to 21, you
25 are recorded as having said:
1 "General Gobillard responds: My scouts informed me that the
2 agreement has not been fulfilled."
3 I think that there must have been a mistake on your part. These
4 are the words that Mr. Sladoje used --
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- not Mr. Gobillard.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Those are the words of
10 Colonel Sladoje. Thank you very much for your assistance.
11 I tender this record dated 5 January 1995, 65 ter number 1D04159.
12 MR. WEBER: No objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4159 receives number D617,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
17 Mr. Weber, is there any dispute about the Muslim side not,
18 certainly not in every respect, meeting their obligations under the DMZ
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe the evidence stands for
21 itself. We've received a lot of evidence about the activities of both
22 sides during the course of the agreement --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --
24 MR. WEBER: -- so I would not encapsulate it in one simple
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I didn't ask you whether there was a dispute
2 about whether the Serbs did but at least the Muslims, not to say --
3 doesn't say anything about the Serbs.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, you are asking for more time and apparently you
5 are -- you are eliciting evidence which -- on a matter which is not in
6 dispute. And we have followed the proceedings carefully. I mean, it
7 came to my mind because we have heard evidence about it before, so
8 therefore use the remaining five minutes preferably on matters which are
9 in dispute.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due
11 respect, over the break we tried to clarify this with the Prosecution.
12 We asked if we could stipulate these questions. And as far as I
13 understood the position of the Prosecution, yes, the Muslim side did do
14 some engineering works, but in the view of the Prosecution that would not
15 constitute a violation of the cease-fire. This is why we put this
17 The other thing is that, prompted by your digression from
18 yesterday's transcript, page 25039, lines 17 to 22, where you said and
19 suggested that in view of the fact that the statement of this witness was
20 quite general, the Chamber would like to know who violated the cease-fire
21 so that the other side could check that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't say anything about the testimony -- I
23 didn't say anything about the testimony of this witness yesterday, as far
24 as I remember. And I don't see this document to deal with engineering
25 works. That was the previous document, if I remember well.
1 And, Mr. Weber, did you -- were you approached for a stipulation?
2 MR. WEBER: Yes, and what I actually believed I informed
3 Mr. Lukic was that if he would like to write facts, not conclusions,
4 down, I'd be happy to look at it. And so, you know, I need to -- what is
5 the -- not a conclusion but the Prosecution would actually like a fact --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 MR. WEBER: -- that could be reviewed and then read into the
8 record. So I'm going to look at that. I think that would be our
9 standard approach and -- instead of just oral on record conversations
10 with --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 MR. WEBER: -- obscure facts, things of that nature.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We should avoid that observations as I just made
14 take more time than -- and the parties are again encouraged to agree on
15 what is in dispute and what is not in dispute.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now look at
18 D614 in e-court again, please. This is the witness's statement. And I
19 would like to direct your attention to paragraph 19 of the statement.
20 Q. My question regarding the explanation of your statement on this
21 matter, Mr. Indjic, is you said that it was established that fire was
22 opened at the centre of Sarajevo from Muslim positions. So now I'm
23 asking you if you had any knowledge about civilian buildings or
24 facilities in Sarajevo or some other buildings in Sarajevo were being
25 used as locations where artillery positions of the 1st Corps of the
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina army were placed.
2 A. I apologise. I'm a little bit confused. Paragraph 19 refers to
3 a very specific matter. As for this second question, it's not related to
4 paragraph 19. I can respond to both. I can answer in relation to
5 paragraph 19 and then to this second part.
6 Q. I will try to go step by step. So first regarding paragraph 19,
7 you say it was established in that period that fire was opened at the
8 centre of Sarajevo, in parentheses, in the area of Higijenski Zavod. So
9 I'm asking you who established this fact, that the shelling in the area
10 of the public health institute had come from the Muslim positions.
11 A. All right. In view of a series of manipulations that accompany
12 every war, including the one in the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in
13 view of the high level of --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- professional --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, witness --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- qualifications of the British
18 cadre --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. The simple question was
20 who established the fact that fire was opened at the centre of Sarajevo,
21 who did that. That was the question.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear, clear, clear. The UNPROFOR
23 command headed by General Rose, thanks to the artillery radar posted, the
24 Cymbeline radar, established -- without any doubt established that the
25 trajectory of the mines which hit the public health institute indicated
1 that they were fired from Muslim positions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before you continue, of course the
3 Chamber -- apart from what exactly the relevance is that the other party
4 did perhaps something wrong as well. The relevant question would be what
5 attack, is there any report, and what do these reports say. That's, of
6 course, for the Chamber to give weight to that -- this evidence, would
7 like to have that kind of information.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did you have information about certain civilian facilities or
11 military facilities were being used as positions of the 1st Corps of the
12 B and H Army and for artillery fire in their immediate vicinity?
13 A. There was a lot of information. If we set out from the fact that
14 the 1st Corps was deployed in Sarajevo, the 1st Corps of the Muslim army,
15 which had 11 brigades, that the establishment was taken over from the
16 former JNA, and it's a three-fold organisation, and that each brigade had
17 three battalions, that each battalion had three companies, that the area
18 of responsibility of one company was 1 to 2 kilometres wide, the
19 positions of companies in Sarajevo demanded an area of 150 square
20 kilometres, and the width of Sarajevo from the west on is 15 kilometres.
21 That means that 10 lines --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm stopping you again. You give a long
23 explanation as to why, apparently, you think that there is a basis for
24 perhaps an answer to the question. I do not know where it all ends. The
25 simple question was: Do you have information about certain civilian
1 facilities or military facilities were being used as positions of the
2 1st Corps? Could you tell us whether you have such information and then
3 what that is. Not why but what.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is precisely what I
5 wanted to say. There are about 200 different sorts of command posts in
6 Sarajevo which were mostly located in civilian facilities; specifically,
7 I personally, in the month of August in 1992, when it was already war,
8 went to have a coffee with the commander of the Army of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sefer Halilovic, at his command, so that I personally
10 know that his command was located in the cellar of a civilian building of
11 the city assembly in the centre.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, apparently we move now to a
15 different subject. The source of fire established by Cymbeline radar,
16 that where I said that what we would be interested in, you moved
17 apparently to a different subject, and therefore I take it that you don't
18 have that information or that you don't consider it important enough to
19 bring it to our attention, which, of course, makes the previous answers
20 of the witness -- it does not strengthen their probative value.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
22 then I would just put one question to Mr. Indjic.
23 Q. Mr. Indjic, you say that the British members of UNPROFOR
24 established thanks to radar observation of what the location was from
25 where the artillery shell was fired that hit the public health institute.
1 Did you see that information or a report in a letter of UNPROFOR? Did
2 you see a written form of that report?
3 A. No, I did not see that report in writing, but from British
4 officers that I was in contact with, I got that information from them,
5 and I know that General Rose went to see Silajdzic to lodge a strong
6 protest about what was happening.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Date of that shell being fired was? A time. When
9 was it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that this was in 1993,
11 before Alija Izetbegovic left for Washington to a meeting at which the
12 lifting of the weapons embargo imposed on the Muslim side was supposed to
13 be lifted.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That gives a rough time-frame.
15 Mr. Stojanovic, where the witness is able to tell us that
16 General Rose lodged a strong protest, I take it that is recorded
17 somewhere, which is usually done. Have you explored that to see whether
18 what the witness tells us is also reflected in any such report?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We are working on it,
20 Your Honour, and I hope that we will be able to identify that by the end
21 of the examination of this witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You interviewed the witness so it comes as a
23 bit of a surprise that it's only now that you are working on it.
24 Let's proceed.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I'm going to end
1 with one more question.
2 Q. Could we look at paragraph 27 of your statement, please, where
3 you talk about the situation. This is in the middle of the paragraph.
4 The situation when members of UNPROFOR who were in the territory
5 controlled by the VRS were placed under their control and their
6 communications devices and weapons were taken from them. The people that
7 you talk about in your statement, where were they specifically located?
8 A. I'm talking about the French contingent of UNPROFOR which was
9 billeted in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area in Lukavica, and their task
10 was to monitor heavy weaponry.
11 Q. According to your best recollection, how many members of French
12 UNPROFOR were placed under the control of the VRS on that occasion?
13 A. I think it was about 25 men.
14 Q. And in which building did they continue to sojourn physically
15 after they were placed under VRS control?
16 A. They remained in the same building in the same premises that they
17 were in until then, only the weapons and their communication means were
18 placed in a different room which was then locked.
19 Q. And what was the way that these members of the French contingent
20 were treated in terms of food, accommodation?
21 A. The members of UNPROFOR were treated professionally. They were
22 not abused. The only thing was that they were not permitted to move
23 outside of the premises where they were being kept.
24 Q. Mr. Indjic, thank you very much. I don't have any further
25 questions for you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, again, we've heard quite a bit of
2 evidence of UNPROFOR members being deprived of their liberty. Could you
3 tell us what you told us now about the 25, approximately, where were they
4 kept, so that we are able to link your information with other evidence
5 we've seen? I've got no idea, if you say they stayed in the same
6 premises, what premises you are talking about. What premises did they
7 stay in where they had been before?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you look at my
9 earlier answer, is that -- where it states that they were in the
10 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps area of responsibility, so they were right next
11 to the building where the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was.
12 They were literally some 50 to 100 metres away from the location of the
13 corps HQ.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you aware of any other UNPROFOR members
15 that were deprived of their liberty in the zone of the corps which were
16 not allowed to stay in the same premises where they had been before?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The answer to that question would
18 be only about what I heard later. I did not know about anything about
19 other members of UNPROFOR, about them being taken in, so I don't have any
20 personal information about that. I don't have personal knowledge about
22 JUDGE ORIE: Even not as a liaison officer you were not privy
23 with that information?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And what you later heard, from whom did you hear it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In conversations at the command
2 while making reports about how many members of the international forces
3 there were and at which locations. There was a record kept and that was
4 submitted as part of combat reports about the situation on the ground,
5 how many members of UNPROFOR were there and in which locations. That is
6 to say, I personally did not take part or have any personal knowledge
7 about this except in relation to this particular group.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand that in the corps command a
9 record was kept of where UNPROFOR members who were not free to move any
10 further, were deprived of their liberty, where they were kept?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And that was part of the -- this was reported to the
13 corps command by the lower units?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, we come to the domain of
15 what I think what was there. Again, I think that that's how it was, but
16 I don't have any personal insight regarding those reports, meaning the
17 reports of subordinate units to their command. I did see a collective
18 report which was sent to the Main Staff.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One short follow-up question in relation to this
22 In paragraph 27 of your statement, you refer to an order to place
23 under control and disarm the UNPROFOR members in the territory controlled
24 by the VRS. Who issued that order?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that day very well. I
1 was in my office when the deputy operations officer came and conveyed the
2 order from the Main Staff that members of UNPROFOR were to be placed
3 under control and separated from their weapons and communication devices.
4 He emphasized that strict care must be --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- taken, that not a single member
7 of UNPROFOR should be hurt in any way.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: An order from the Main Staff. Was it a written
9 order or a verbal order?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. The duty operations
11 officer could have received an oral or a written order, and I got that
12 order from the duty operations officer of the corps command in -- orally.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you know who personally at the Main Staff
14 issued this order?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "Main Staff," you refer to the
18 Main Staff of the VRS?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
22 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Indjic, you'll now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Weber. You'll find him to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for the
1 Please proceed.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Indjic.
4 A. [In English] Good morning.
5 Q. And just so -- I think you even clarified it, but for the record,
6 is it correct that you speak the English language?
7 A. [Interpretation] Still, but not so well as before.
8 Q. Just leaving off -- just picking up where we just left off, are
9 the events that you were -- that you were describing to the Judges about
10 the UNPROFOR members being held pursuant to an order of the VRS
11 Main Staff, does that relate to events that occurred on the 26th of May,
13 A. I mentioned in my statement and I repeat now that I am not able
14 to speak in any competent way about dates because I have a problem with
15 dates. I can say that these events began with the NATO air strikes.
16 Q. We'll come back to the topic. How about that?
17 MR. WEBER: If we could pick up also, since we were just looking
18 at the statement on the screen, with D614. I just have some basic
19 questions about paragraph 2.
20 Q. In paragraph 2 of your statement, you state:
21 "When the UNPROFOR mission was established in the territory of
22 the former Yugoslavia, I was assigned pursuant to the order of the
23 Federal Secretary for National Defence to the position of liaison officer
24 within the group for co-operation with UNPROFOR ..."
25 Simple question: When was this order received by you, the
1 approximate date?
2 A. It could have been February or March 1992.
3 Q. In this paragraph you indicate that the group at the time was
4 headed by General Aksentijevic. Is it correct that this group was under
5 the command of the 2nd Military District at that time?
6 A. I don't know whether it was linked to the 2nd Military District
7 organisationally, but the reports went directly to the Federal Secretary
8 for National Defence. So I think it was only logistically linked to the
9 2nd Military District and organisationally they were related directly to
10 the Federal Secretariat.
11 Q. Okay. Thanks for that clarification. Up until September 1992,
12 you were based in the PTT building in Sarajevo; correct?
13 A. I'm not sure whether it was September but it was the second half
14 of 1992. I think it was September or the end of August, then September.
15 Q. Okay. During the remainder of the war you were based in the
16 Lukavica barracks at the headquarters of the SRK; correct?
17 A. It couldn't be the SRK or the Main Staff. It was the command of
18 the SRK, the same building where my office was.
19 Q. In Lukavica, correct?
20 A. In Lukavica.
21 Q. At the end of the second paragraph of your statement, you
22 indicate that you ended your service with the rank of lieutenant-colonel.
23 Is it correct that you were promoted to this rank during the war at the
24 beginning of 1995?
25 A. It's correct that I was promoted during the war, and it was an
1 early promotion, I think six months earlier.
2 Q. You understood my next question. It was an accelerated
3 promotion; correct?
4 A. It was not fast-track or accelerated. It was just early. There
5 are different categories of promotion. This one was early.
6 Q. Okay. Moving on away from your statement, is it correct that
7 contacts with representatives of the international community went through
8 your office in Lukavica?
9 A. Among other things at the office in Lukavica.
10 Q. Your primary task was to receive requests, protests, and
11 petitions from representatives of the international community addressed
12 to Bosnian Serb institutions. Is that accurate?
13 A. Perhaps it would be better to say that the main task was
14 mediating in the communication between various institutions and the
15 institutions of the Serbian side, because that part of the job that you
16 mentioned, receiving requests and protests, et cetera, was only one part
17 of our job.
18 Q. Okay. Since you provided a little slightly different answer, I
19 would like to look at your Karadzic statement.
20 MR. WEBER: This is 65 ter 31179, page 17 in e-court. It's
21 paragraph 56.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could we meanwhile ask the witness to tell us what
23 he meant when he said "mediating in the communication between various
24 institutions." Various institutions of what, of the international
25 community or UNPROFOR or the ...
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Institutions of the international
2 community, UNPROFOR, International Red Cross, UNHCR, international press,
3 warring parties, everybody who needed to make contact with the Serbian
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That included the Muslim armed forces.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honour, I -- if you'll indulge me a little
9 bit more on that topic, I was going to go into that in detail.
10 Q. Sir, before you is your Karadzic statement. And I'd like to
11 direct your -- I believe it's only on one side. And I'll read it out. I
12 don't know if you can read paragraph 56 for yourself. It stated:
13 "The primary task that the group performed was receiving
14 requests, protests, and possessions from the other side or
15 representatives of the international community for institutions on our
17 This was your statement for the Karadzic case; correct?
18 A. Yes. Nothing is in issue. I just expanded a little what was
19 said, very briefly. Only in essential features. I clarified what this
20 was about.
21 Q. Okay. Is it correct that you processed these requests or
22 protests and forwarded them to the relevant individual or institution?
23 A. The part of the question where you said "processed" or "treated"
24 is not clear. I cannot answer. As for forwarded, forwarding to the
25 addressee, to those for whom it was intended, that part is correct.
1 Q. Well, let's go back to your Karadzic statement that's on the
2 screen before us.
3 MR. WEBER: Next paragraph, 57.
4 Q. So I'm using your words:
5 "We processed these requests, or rather what we received, and
6 forwarded them to the relevant institutions ... and vice versa, replies
7 and requests from our side for one of these institutions."
8 So when you say "processed," are you saying that you received
9 requests and you then forwarded them to the relevant institution?
10 A. I understand what is meant in this statement. For instance, if a
11 protest was sent, especially in the beginning, in 1991 --
12 Q. Sir --
13 A. -- when we didn't have translation services --
14 Q. Sir, I want to keep a little organised. We'll go through
15 specific examples, but I understand your answer as yes, that that was an
16 accurate statement, that you forwarded the requests to the relevant
17 institutions and vice versa. Correct?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Okay. What --
20 A. I want to say what is meant by "processed."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, what we have on our screen now, did we
22 receive that in e-court or -- because I have some difficulties in --
23 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- getting --
25 MR. WEBER: -- the 65 ter I have is 31179.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I still have in e-court a nine-page document,
2 whereas we are supposed to be on page 17. Now I have the right one, I
3 think. Yes.
4 MR. WEBER: Okay.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It has been fixed.
6 MR. WEBER: Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. WEBER:
9 Q. I just want --
10 MR. WEBER: Judge, Your Honour, I believe that the witness is --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. WEBER: -- trying to get your attention.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Indjic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one thing. The
15 document I have in e-court before me is in English. English is not my
16 native tongue. I have some knowledge, but I don't understand it
17 perfectly. And since it is important here to be precise, I would like
18 the document to be shown to me in my native tongue.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be no B/C/S version of this document.
21 If --
22 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, it's the Karadzic statement which we
23 have signed from the witness, and we do not -- Ms. Stewart is checking
24 again but -- oh, we don't have a B/C/S version of the -- this statement
25 from the Karadzic case. From the Karadzic Defence.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But Mr. Weber read the relevant part into the
2 transcript and it was interpreted to the witness. And the witness was
3 going to explain what he meant by "we processed these requests."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we can't assist you. The portions read to
5 you are interpreted for you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. WEBER: Yes. And thank you, Judge Fluegge.
8 Q. I believe that where we left off was you wanted to make a comment
9 about what you meant by the word "processed these requests." If you
10 could just please give us a very brief explanation as to what you mean by
12 A. In the early days, it happened sometimes that a document that was
13 to be sent out by us to UNPROFOR needed to be translated and sent to
14 UNPROFOR in English and vice versa. The documents received from certain
15 organisations would arrive in English and then we would translate them
16 and forward them, pass them on. That's what I meant to say. I, nor
17 anybody else in my group, did not have the right to process anything in
18 the sense of changing the content or the essence of the document.
19 Q. Okay. I'm going to try to stay on track here, but you've
20 introduced a -- a temporal element. Did that stay the same throughout
21 the remainder of the war, that your group did not have the right to
22 process anything in the sense of changes to the content or essence of the
24 A. Right. We were allowed in no way to change the content or the
25 gist of the document.
1 Q. I want to go step by step here and just go through very
2 particular organisations and how things were communicated. So if you
3 could please just listen to my questions. Is it correct that you
4 received requests and protests from the United Nations, including
5 UNPROFOR, UNMOs, and UNHCR?
6 A. Yes, and many others.
7 Q. Okay. With respect to the -- these requests and protests related
8 to UN institutions, would they be made orally and in writing to you?
9 A. I want to be emphatic about one thing. Your question reads would
10 they be made to me. I said we forwarded protests to the addressee. They
11 could be verbal or written. In fact, they were both verbal and written.
12 But they were not sent to me. I am not the addressee of these protests,
13 Milenko Indjic or anybody else from the group in charge of co-operation
14 with international organisations.
15 Q. Sir, that's fair and that's well understood that you were
16 forwarding them and I'm sorry if I introduced any confusion, but let's
17 move on. Is it also correct that you received and forwarded requests and
18 protest letters from the ECMM? I believe you already mentioned the ICRC
19 and other nongovernmental organisations.
20 A. If I remember correctly, the ECMM's mandate had already finished
21 when the VRS was established. So they didn't even exist anymore. But as
22 for the ICRC and nongovernmental organisations, you are correct.
23 Q. Is it correct that the protest letters received by your liaison
24 offices were passed on to your superiors in the chain of command of the
1 A. They were forwarded to the addressees. If they were addressed to
2 the command of the corps, they were sent to the corps command. If they
3 were addressed to the Main Staff, we passed them on to the Main Staff.
4 The situation became a little easier in 1993 when UNPROFOR established
5 their own liaison office at Pale. So the bulk of communication addressed
6 to the Main Staff went through that office and not my liaison office.
7 Q. If you received an oral request or protest directed to
8 General Mladic, how would you communicate that to the General?
9 A. If it concerned something that was not confidential, then a
10 telephone call would be made to General Mladic or the duty officer, or it
11 would be included in a regular report in writing. If something required
12 a degree of confidentiality, then we made every effort to convey the
13 message to General Mladic in person.
14 Q. You just mentioned "or the duty officer." Of which level of
15 command are you referring to the duty officer of?
16 A. The duty officer at the command of the Main Staff. My
17 explanation about confidentiality was meant to explain also that all
18 communications that we used were not secure and they could not be used
19 for passing on confidential information.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I was just reminded that it might be
21 break time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break. The witness may follow the
23 usher. We'd like to see you back, Mr. Indjic, in 20 minutes.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at quarter past 12.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
6 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. Mr. Indjic, since we have your Karadzic statement on the screen,
8 I just wanted to go to one other paragraph in it before we resume with
9 the topic we were discussing. In paragraph 58 of your Karadzic
10 statement, it indicates that you stated:
11 "The work of liaison officers precludes any possibility of
12 independent decision-making ... as a liaison officer, I'm in a position
13 to propose the solution to a problem ... but I can't decide on the
15 Is that an accurate statement?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do I understand correctly from that that you had no independent
18 authority to decide how to respond to a protest or a request in your
19 position as a liaison officer? You had to respond according to how you
20 were instructed from your superiors.
21 A. I had to reply in accordance with the response of the person or
22 the institution to whom the protest was addressed.
23 Q. That's a more broad statement. Specifically, if it was addressed
24 to General Mladic and General Mladic told you how to respond, you were
25 bound by those instructions; correct?
1 A. I've never had a case where I would receive directly from
2 General Mladic my instructions as to how to respond. The protests that
3 were addressed to Pale received replies from the Main Staff always in
5 Q. We'll go through some examples, and I'll revisit this. Since you
6 were a member of the SRK command, how would you inform General Galic or
7 General Milosevic of the protests you received?
8 A. If the protest was in writing, I would hand it to him. If it was
9 a verbal protest, I would pass it on to the commander or, if the
10 commander was away, then to the duty officer.
11 Q. And you followed that procedure during both the time of
12 General Galic and General Milosevic?
13 A. That was the standard procedure.
14 Q. Would the protests ever be discussed at the morning SRK command
16 A. In the period when I attended morning briefings, the meetings did
17 not discuss protests.
18 Q. Is it correct that all protests that were directed to a higher
19 level of command were also forwarded to the level of command that the
20 protest referred to? To give you an example, if a protest regarding VRS
21 activities in Sarajevo was sent to a member of the Main Staff, would that
22 protest also be forwarded to the SRK commander?
23 A. I don't know. I cannot answer that question. I don't know
24 whether that was a rule for those who were sending the protests. I
25 really don't know.
1 Q. Okay. Let's look at one of your previous statements.
2 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31180,
3 page 51.
4 Q. And while that's coming up, Mr. Indjic, is it correct that you
5 provided an interview or you sat for an interview with the Office of the
6 Prosecutor in April of 2001?
7 A. It's correct that I had an interview with Barry Hogan, the
8 investigator, but I cannot recall the date. I do know that it was
9 Barry Hogan. The surname was entered incorrectly. It's Hogan. Okay.
10 Q. Sir, I'm going to an answer that you provided during the course
11 of this interview which is in the middle of the page. I'll read it to
12 you. Your answer was:
13 "In principle, I can say that all protests that arrived at the
14 higher level were also forwarded to the level that the protest referred
15 to. And together with that, if necessary, the protests were accompanied
16 by corresponding orders from the higher level to the lower level on what
17 to do further."
18 Sir, that is what you told Investigator Hogan; correct?
19 A. Excellent. And you are in the right place, and if you read
20 carefully what is written here, you can see that it was not the protest
21 from UNPROFOR that would be sent to two different levels but it would --
22 if it were sent to the higher level, then that higher level would pass it
23 down to the lower level, the part that referred to the lower level, with
24 some sort of adequate order about what had to be done in respect of that
1 Q. Is it correct that the commander of the SRK, whether it was
2 General Galic or General Milosevic, that they would be informed of the
3 details of a protest even if the protest letter was not directly to them?
4 A. I don't know that. I don't know the answer to that question.
5 What the communication was between the corps commander and the chief of
6 the Main Staff and his assistant, I can't answer that.
7 MR. WEBER: If we could please zoom out on this page. I'll come
8 back to it. And I'll find -- I'm sorry, Your Honours. Thank you for
9 your patience. I don't have the specific point in the transcript.
10 Q. And I'll come right back to that, sir. Is it correct that you
11 received and forwarded requests or complaints from other Bosnian Serb
12 institutions to members of the VRS?
13 A. The question is not clear to me. Serbs lodging protests with
14 Serbs? It's not clear to me.
15 Q. Yes. Did you receive any protests from Bosnian Serb institutions
16 to the VRS?
17 A. I never saw a protest like that.
18 Q. Is it correct that you not only had to deal with liaison duties
19 for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps but you also had to deal with liaison
20 duties for the other corps and units and sometimes even political
22 A. The most precise answer would be that I was working on duties of
23 liaison officer for all those who needed to contact anyone in the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps sector, because the bulk of political and
25 military negotiations took place in the neutral zone of the Sarajevo
1 airport. As for this specific question, I did not carry out liaison
2 officer duties for other corps, but frequently I was engaged in
3 organising various meetings of the political leadership.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. WEBER: While we have the interview in front of us, could we
6 go to page 6. And actually, if we could go on to the next page, to
7 page 7. There it is at the top of the page.
8 Q. Sir, during your interview, the question posed to you through the
9 interpreter was:
10 "And if I've understood correctly, this means that your duties
11 were not only liaison duties relating to the Romanija-Sarajevo Corps, but
12 also to all other corps and units, including even political sides,
14 Your answer was:
15 "Er, in a large number of cases."
16 Is that what you said during your interview?
17 A. I probably did because that's what it says there, but what I
18 meant was going beyond the confines of the Romanija-Sarajevo Corps
19 because I worked as a liaison officer for the main corps, some political,
20 civilian authorities, but I didn't work for other corps.
21 Q. No, I understand that you were assigned to the SRK, but do you
22 understand my questions relate to your function as a liaison officer and
23 that you would receive protests and transmit requests relayed to the
24 other corps as well. Do you understand that?
25 A. No, I did not receive requests relating to other corps because
1 there was a liaison officer office at the main corps. Other corps also
2 had their own liaison officers.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. WEBER: If we could just go back to the earlier reference
5 that I was seeking to have. It's page 53 of this document.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the meantime, I would like to clarify one
8 In your last answer, Mr. Indjic, at least that was the
9 interpretation, you said: "... because there was a liaison officer
10 office at the main corps." What do you mean by "main corps"? If it
11 correctly represents what you said.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not main corps. Main Staff.
13 The Main Staff in Han Pijesak.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Indjic, I'd now like to take you to a question that was posed
17 through the interpreter as -- it's at the bottom of the page in front of
19 MR. WEBER: If we could please have it enlarged.
20 Q. It's -- the question was:
21 "However, as you said earlier, er, after the protests were filed,
22 they would be forwarded to General Galic and there would be no reason for
23 him not to have been aware of the filed protests."
24 Your answer was recorded as:
25 "There would be no reason. Only if, if he was not physically"
1 present "there at the moment."
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You added the word "present."
3 MR. WEBER: Oh, thank you, Your Honour. I apologise. I'll just
4 re-read it just so it's clear on the record what the answer was.
5 Q. "There would be no reason. Only if, if he was not physically
6 there at the moment."
7 That was what you said during your interview; correct?
8 A. Yes. I don't know what the question is.
9 Q. I was just right now just seeking to confirm your previous
10 statement, and you've done that. Thank you. During the war, can you
11 approximate how many protests you received from UNPROFOR and other
12 international entities?
13 A. It's not very wise to make approximate conclusions because then
14 you would held to that, so I would rather avoid giving any approximate
16 Q. Is it fair to say that it was a large number of protests?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, what one considers large, a large number,
19 is considered by another a small number. So could you --
20 MR. WEBER: I was -- I'm not -- I hear you and I was thinking
21 along those lines.
22 Q. How frequently would you receive, let's start with, written
24 A. That all depended on the combat situation on the ground, if there
25 was fierce fighting underway or not, so that again is a relative thing.
1 They would come as needed.
2 Q. Are you able to give any type of approximate -- approximation of
3 how frequently you would receive protests orally? Every day, every week,
4 every two weeks, once a year?
5 A. Sometimes it would be every day, sometimes it would be once a
6 month. It all depended on the situation on the ground.
7 Q. Is it correct that you received protests for both small and big
8 incidents? And what I mean by that, I mean small day-to-day events, and
9 big meaning events that were being, let's say, widely covered in the
11 A. I cannot answer that question because it's absolutely imprecise.
12 I don't know what you consider a small, what you consider a big incident.
13 We could say that the death of one person is a small incident, the death
14 of five people could be considered a big incident. So I really don't
15 know how to answer unless you put a more specific question to me.
16 Q. That's very fair. Did you get -- some of the protest letters
17 that you received concerned shelling of specific areas of Sarajevo;
19 A. I don't know. I cannot answer the question. It's still a very
20 general question. I don't know if there was such protests or not. It's
21 such a general question that I really cannot answer it.
22 Q. If we could go to, actually, then, your prior transcript based on
23 that answer.
24 MR. WEBER: It's the Galic transcript, which is uploaded under
25 65 ter 31178. I ask that it not be broadcast. I ask that it not be
2 Your Honour, I would note that this was in private session during
3 the Galic proceedings. I've asked for the transcript right now to be not
4 broadcast. I think that I could safely read the portion that I'm seeking
5 to elicit. It's on page 50 of that transcript. However, if you'd like,
6 I'd be happy to go into private session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we're not in private session, I think the
8 transcript will be public.
9 MR. WEBER: I asked for it not --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Whatever you read --
11 MR. WEBER: Well, yes, but --
12 JUDGE ORIE: So we move into private session.
13 MR. WEBER: Okay. Very well.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 25132 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document still on the screen shouldn't be
15 MR. WEBER: Oh, yes, thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be removed from the screen.
17 MR. WEBER: I'm grateful.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think still the portion on the transcript is
19 readable from the public gallery, so therefore we usually wait for one or
20 two minutes.
21 MR. WEBER: Okay.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The whole Prosecution team seems to be struggling
23 with the details of the technicalities of the curtains up or down.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. WEBER: Just let us know if we need to assist at all since
1 we're here.
2 Q. Mr. Indjic, I'd like to now discuss with you some specific
3 aspects of your relationship with General Mladic. Is it correct that you
4 had over 100 conversations with General Mladic during the war?
5 A. Again, that would be an approximation. There were a lot of
6 conversations during meetings that were conducted, conversations at the
7 command post. I don't know how many of them happened. I really couldn't
8 say that with any kind of certainty.
9 Q. In your Karadzic testimony, on multiple occasions you responded
10 to answers by saying that things were "one of a hundred conversations I
11 had during the war with General Mladic as liaison officer."
12 MR. WEBER: This is on Karadzic transcript page 32605.
13 Q. Also on that page, you said:
14 "I said a little bit earlier that I spoke with General Mladic at
15 least a hundred times."
16 So do you agree that that's at least an accurate statement, that
17 you spoke with General Mladic at least a hundred times during the war?
18 A. I agree that I gave this statement in the Karadzic case, and I
19 regret giving it because these are approximate numbers. And I see that
20 everything that is said in an approximate way you are taking as a fact,
21 and I regret giving that statement. However, I did give it.
22 Q. Sir, I'm just asking if you said things and if you feel that they
23 should be corrected, please let us know. And I think it's clear that --
24 that you were giving an approximate -- an approximation of at least
25 something on a previous occasion. I'd like to move on.
1 Did you -- did General Mladic ever call you during the war?
2 A. I don't remember that he asked for me personally. It's possible,
3 but I don't remember.
4 Q. Okay. Do you recall any occasion where there was a phone call
5 and you were brought to the phone and on the other line was
6 General Mladic during the war?
7 A. Now you have reminded me. I think that I was called. I think
8 that it was a telephone conversation at 2.00 in the morning, because I
9 know that I was outside the command what I was called, and I came to the
10 command and we had that conversation. However, I cannot remember now
11 what the circumstances were and what year, but I do remember that this
12 was at 2.00 in the morning.
13 Q. Okay. You're not even able to help us at all with whether it was
14 at the beginning of the war, the end of the war?
15 A. No, I cannot. But the specific time when the conversation took
16 place helped me to remember that the conversation had taken place.
17 Q. In paragraph 26 of your statement in this case, which is D614,
18 you state:
19 "I was personally present as a liaison officer at a large number
20 of meetings between General Mladic and UNPROFOR representatives."
21 Are you able to provide anything more specific of that statement,
22 approximately how many meetings or how frequent these meetings were? Are
23 you able to provide us any further information about that?
24 A. There were - and once again we're approximating here - but let's
25 say that there were at least five such meetings because in the attempt to
1 enable the process of creating conditions for a cease of hostilities,
2 military workgroups were formed which dealt with questions of
3 cease-fires. So when an agreement was achieved at a lower level, then
4 the commanders of the warring parties would come to verify the agreement
5 and sign it. For example, this was the case --
6 Q. We'll discuss the specifics --
7 A. -- of the demilitarisation of Srebrenica.
8 Q. We'll discuss the specifics here in a little bit. I just want to
9 understand the dynamics before I discuss the specifics with you of
10 certain occasions. Is it correct that you would sometimes serve as
11 General Mladic's interpreter at meetings?
12 A. Depending on whom he had a meeting with. If it was UNPROFOR
13 representatives, they had their own interpreter so that my job would be
14 to monitor the accuracy of the interpretation because in war, everything
15 is possible and it was possible for the interpreter to deliberately
16 misinterpret. If he had some direct talks, I could also serve as an
17 interpreter. I don't remember if there were such cases with
18 General Mladic. I remember I once or a couple of times worked for
19 General Tolimir as an interpreter. But I'm not sure if I was ever the
20 only interpreter for General Mladic. I think it did happen once at
21 Borike near Rogatica [Realtime transcript read in error "Plitvice"].
22 Q. Okay. In the Galic case at transcript page 18667, you were asked
23 the following:
24 "Q. Would you please answer the question.
25 "A. I acted as interpreter at the meetings that General Mladic
2 "Q. Yes. And that's between September 1992 and August 1994, is
3 that correct, including that period?"
4 Your answer was:
6 "Q. How often?"
7 Your next answer:
8 "On several occasions when these meetings were held. Perhaps on
9 five occasions."
10 Do you stand by your previous evidence?
11 A. It's the same as I -- as what I said now. But let me say about
12 my previous answer that it was mis-recorded. Borike is not near
13 Plitvice. It's near Rogatica.
14 Q. Okay. And I see that you corrected that. Prior to a meeting, is
15 it correct that General Mladic --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just --
17 MR. WEBER: Sure.
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
19 Witness, you said that your testimony today is the same as what
20 you said then. Today you testified that, as far as you remember, you
21 once acted in Borike as the interpreter for General Mladic. The previous
22 testimony says that your estimate was it may have been some five times
23 that you did so. So it's not the same. I just wanted to draw your
24 attention to that.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just explained
1 that it's also a duty of the interpreter to monitor the interpretation
2 provided by a person brought by General Rose, General Smith, or somebody
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is a more precise answer. And when in
5 the Galic case you said it happened five times, that included those
6 occasions where you did not interpret but where you verified the accuracy
7 of the interpretation of the other interpreters present.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Prior to a meeting, is it correct that General Mladic would
11 usually ask as much as possible about the person with whom he was
12 supposed to have a meeting?
13 A. That's correct. And that's perfectly natural because at all
14 meetings everybody tries to get as much background on their collocutors
15 as possible.
16 Q. During these meetings, is it correct that you would also have
17 additional private conversations with General Mladic in the Serbian
19 A. I don't know what you mean by "private conversations," but we
20 certainly did speak to each other in Serbian. I cannot understand from
21 your question what would be private or not private.
22 Q. Well, just during the course of the meetings you would have
23 conversations between the two of you in Serbian that were not
24 translate -- being translated to the group as a whole; is that correct?
25 A. Probably. Probably. But I don't know what's at issue here.
1 What needed to be interpreted was interpreted. Perhaps the General asked
2 after my wife and children.
3 Q. Sir, that's not really what I'm asking about. It's -- did you
4 have conversations about what was being discussed at the meetings with
5 General Mladic in Serbian during the course of the meetings? So I'm not
6 talking about random how is your family stuff, but would you -- would the
7 two of you discuss the substance or the topics of what the meeting was
8 about to yourselves during the course of the meetings?
9 A. I cannot say anything specific, but we probably did because
10 General Mladic, as an outstanding commander, always liked to hear the
11 opinions and suggestions of his subordinates.
12 Q. And when you attended meetings with other members of the
13 Main Staff, whether it was General Milovanovic or General Tolimir, would
14 you also have conversations with them prior to the meeting and also --
15 well, prior to the meeting about the person or the matter that you were
16 to be meeting about?
17 A. I would rather say yes than no. I can't remember specifically
18 but I think so, because it would be only natural.
19 Q. Okay. I'd like to now turn into some specific matters. Do you
20 agree that it is improper to block a medical evacuation of critically ill
21 civilian patients from leaving Sarajevo?
22 A. I agree. Not only from Sarajevo but anywhere.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31181 for
25 the witness.
1 Q. Sir, appearing before you is an article dated 23 November 1993
2 from the French Press Agency in Paris entitled: "Bosnia Serbs Block
3 Medical Evacuation." In the article it states:
4 "A 24-year-old Bosnian Serb with a serious chest wound from a
5 sniper's bullet was amongst those who would die unless they were flown
6 out of Sarajevo, said Peter Kessler, spokesperson for the Office of the
7 UN High Commissioner for Refugees."
8 The next paragraph describes an interaction with a Serb official
9 at Lukavica barracks about the convoy, and in the following part of the
10 article it states:
11 "He said 'let him die,' said Kessler, quoting the response of the
12 Serb liaison officer Milenko Indjic to his description of the man's
13 medical condition."
14 Do you recall this incident?
15 A. This is pure rubbish. And I see you are showing me an AFP
16 article. And I have to say, as I said in the previous trial, if you are
17 going to base your conclusions on newspaper stories, you are talking to a
18 dead man right now because the Sarajevo paper Oslobodjenje had published
19 in 1992 news that I was killed.
20 Q. So in answer to my question are you saying you don't recall this
21 incident because it did not happen in your view?
22 A. I'm not saying that I don't remember. I'm saying that this is
23 nonsense. I want you to show me the request for this convoy and a paper
24 where it says it's rejected.
25 Q. Okay. I'm going to this because of your comment. You're saying
1 that -- you're saying, "I'm not saying that I don't remember." Do you
2 remember a medical evacuation of critically ill individuals in
3 November of 1993?
4 A. I remember the medical evacuation from Sarajevo to Italy of
5 Ismet Bajramovic, known as Celo, a notorious Sarajevo criminal who harmed
6 a lot of Serbian people, because I was personally present at this
7 Sarajevo airport when his evacuation was approved. He had a bullet in
8 his heart. If the evacuation of a notorious criminal was approved, then
9 do you really believe that this story happened as presented here?
10 Q. Well --
11 JUDGE ORIE: But let's stick to the facts.
12 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
13 JUDGE ORIE: What happened at another time is not the issue at
14 this moment. Do you remember a medical evacuation where a 24-year-old
15 Bosnian Serb with a serious chest wound was not granted in November 1993?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. Because if any
17 request of that kind had been made, it would certainly have been
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you don't remember, then this is a general
21 The witness, Mr. Weber, does not remember such an incident at
22 this moment.
23 MR. WEBER: Okay.
24 Q. Sir, I put it to you that this incident did happen and that
25 Mr. Kessler, an individual who is -- appears to not only be seeking to
1 evacuate a 24-year-old Bosnian Serb but was also looking to evacuate
2 14 patients total including two children and three women along with 17 of
3 their relatives. I put it to you that this event did happen and
4 Mr. Kessler has no reason to make this up. Do you have any reason to
5 believe that he is?
6 A. I'm telling you that this is a lie and that it's you who is
7 fabricating. Show me a request for medical evacuation and I will agree.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I again stop you. Earlier you said you don't
9 remember such an incident, although the question was a bit composite. Do
10 you know Mr. Kessler?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise for my
12 emotional reaction. This claim is a personal insult to me.
13 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for Mr. Kessler, I remember the
15 name but I can't put a face to it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Are you in a position to tell us whether or
17 not Mr. Kessler would have any reason either to make things up or don't
18 you know?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember ever to have said - and I'm not
21 suggesting you did but I'm asking you - do you remember ever to have said
22 that someone -- you'd rather let someone die than to let him go?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly never said that, and I
24 don't remember that any medical evacuation had ever been refused.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, please proceed.
1 MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honour, I'd just tender this document into
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31181 receives number P6710,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: P6710 is admitted.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'll try to squeeze in one more document
8 before the break.
9 Could the Prosecution please have P04624 for the witness.
10 Q. Mr. Indjic, before you is a 21 March 1995 UNPROFOR memorandum
11 concerning a meeting between Colonel De Kermabon and General Milosevic at
12 the Lukavica headquarters. According to the document, in the second
13 page, you were present for this meeting. I just want to give you a
14 second to orient yourself to the memorandum, and could you let us know do
15 you recall this meeting?
16 A. I know Colonel De Kermabon very well, but somehow I can't
17 remember that I attended this meeting nor do I see any indication of that
18 in this document.
19 MR. WEBER: For the sake of the witness, could we have page 2 of
20 the document so we can also look at that, also, in the B/C/S version and
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I see that I was there, but I
23 can't recall it.
24 MR. WEBER: Okay. If we could go back to page 1 in both
1 Q. In item 2 related to the security at the airport, the memo
2 discusses that for over a week the aircraft arriving and departing at the
3 airport were engaged by Serbian forces, including an event involving
4 rocket fire on the 19th of March. Before I further go on, does this help
5 your recollection at all about this meeting, this particular matter?
6 A. I'm really sorry. I can't remember. I mean, I don't rule out
7 any of what is written here, but I really can't remember this meeting.
8 Q. Okay. The memo then states:
9 "After some discussion, General Milosevic said he would ensure
10 that his forces around the airport refrain from firing on aircraft. This
11 was based upon the concept that Muslims would not be on the
12 incoming/outgoing flights."
13 Do you recall General Milosevic not wanting Muslims either
14 arriving or leaving Sarajevo on flights from the airport?
15 A. I don't remember that.
16 Q. You have no reason to dispute that this accurately represents
17 what General Milosevic communicated at the time?
18 A. No, I have no reason to dispute it, but I just have no
19 recollection of this meeting.
20 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see we're at the time for the break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's time for a break.
22 Mr. Indjic, would you please follow the usher. We'd like to see
23 you back in 20 minutes.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes
1 to 2.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 1.14 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I was going to move on to another
6 document, but I didn't know if Your Honours have any questions on this.
7 No. Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, not as far as I'm concerned. No. Then perhaps
9 you already ask it to be brought to our screen, unless you want the
10 witness not to see it when he enters.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31190.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, may I proceed?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Mr. Indjic, before you is a 29 June 1995 memorandum from Viktor -
17 excuse me for the pronunciation here - Bezrouchenko --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Bezrouchenko.
19 MR. WEBER: Greatly appreciate it as always.
20 Q. To David Holland concerning a meeting with you in Lukavica. Just
21 like before, I'd like to give you a fair opportunity to just review the
22 document and orient yourself and let us know if you recall this meeting.
23 A. I remember it vaguely. I remember there was a problem after the
24 closing of the bridge at Grbavica that Colonel Bezrouchenko came.
25 Q. Okay. I'd like to actually direct your attention to subsection b
1 of the memorandum related to the BiH Army offensive. In this paragraph
2 it relates what you said and indicates you stated:
3 "Yesterday's attack in the area of Nedzarici was initiated by
4 Serbs who have now adopted a new strategy. This strategy is to clench
5 their grip of urban Sarajevo."
6 Before continuing, do you see this passage?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Who informed you of this strategy?
9 A. I cannot remember whether the term "strategy" was used in the
10 conversation or not. The strategy as such was certainly not the subject
11 of conversation.
12 Q. It states:
13 "This strategy is to clench their grip of urban Sarajevo."
14 Who communicated that to you, to clench their grip of urban
16 A. I'm telling you that strategy, in my view, did not exist, so
17 nobody could convey that strategy to me. I can't tell you how each part
18 of the conversation was interpreted and what we discussed specifically,
19 but when you read the whole talk, you can see that we discussed all the
20 combat activity and the Serb response to Muslim actions.
21 Q. We're going to go through it, but I just want to stop part by
22 part so we don't get too confused. How did you know the attack in the
23 area of Nedzarici was initiated by Serbs?
24 A. Probably from the meetings at the corps command or from talking
25 to somebody from the corps command.
1 Q. According to the next sentence, you stated that:
2 "The BSA is going to nibble away Bosnian positions in the city in
3 response for every hill the Bosnians seize around Sarajevo."
4 How were you informed that this was going to be done by the SRK?
5 A. Probably at the meetings in the corps command. That's quite
7 Q. According to the following sentences, you said that:
8 "UNPROFOR might see BSA tanks close to PTT very soon."
9 And then according to the memorandum, you emphasized the
10 importance of the battle around Sarajevo to the outcome of the war. Were
11 these your personal opinions or statements based on instructions you were
12 provided? You've explained to us that you had no discretion. On what
13 basis were you saying this?
14 A. First of all, nobody took any statements from me. That's one
15 thing. This is a conversation between David Harland and
16 Viktor Bezrouchenko with me. In that conversation I had the right to my
17 own opinion, to share it or not share it. So everything I said in this
18 conversation is what I presented. On what basis I knew that, that's a
19 different issue.
20 Q. Okay. The last sentence of this subsection states:
21 "When I asked him what type of weapon was used to attack the TV
22 building yesterday, he," in reference to you, "smiled and said that the
23 BSA had an assortment of weapons."
24 Is it correct that you smiled and made this statement because you
25 knew the SRK hit the RTV building the day before, the 28th of June, 1995?
1 A. I really cannot answer this question. I smiled a couple of times
2 in the course of today. Whether I smiled on that day, I can't remember.
3 Q. When you said the BSA had an assortment of weapons --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Part of your question was about the smile. Second
7 was the reason for the smile.
8 MR. WEBER: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you further seek an answer to that portion of
10 the question?
11 MR. WEBER:
12 Q. Is it correct you knew that the SRK had hit the RTV building the
13 day before, the 28th of June, 1995, when you made this statement?
14 A. I'm saying again: I didn't give any statements and nobody took
15 any statements from me. Whether the TV building was hit or not, I cannot
16 remember now.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's an answer to the question, that you
18 don't remember.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. WEBER:
21 Q. According to this memorandum you said the BSA had an assortment
22 of weapons. Is it correct that you were aware that the SRK possessed
23 modified air bombs at the time of this meeting, on the 29th of June,
25 A. I don't see that I mentioned modified air bombs anywhere here.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it's not true that I knew.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you please answer the question.
4 Irrespective of what the document says, the document talks about a
5 variety of weapons, but were you aware of the BSA having modified air
6 bombs at their disposal?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I tender the document into evidence,
10 65 ter 31190.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31190 receives number P6711,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have still a question in relation to this
16 document before it disappears from the screen.
17 Can you tell me who was present during that meeting which is
18 mentioned in this memorandum we see on the screen?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say any more than I read
20 in the memorandum. Harland, Bezrouchenko, and myself. I don't know if
21 anybody else was present.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see that in the memorandum. What is your
23 recollection? I'm asking you for your recollection.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who was there. I can
25 see in the memorandum that Bezrouchenko and I were there and that it is
1 sent to Harland.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I can see that as well and that is the reason why
3 I'm asking you. You said earlier, this is on page 71, line 7 and 8:
4 "This is a conversation between David Harland and Viktor
5 Bezrouchenko with me."
6 That is what you said. When I'm looking at this memorandum, it
7 shows that Bezrouchenko sent this memo to Mr. Harland [Realtime
8 transcript read in error "Bezrouchenko"], mentioning in the first line:
9 "This morning I," referring to Mr. Bezrouchenko, "had a meeting
10 with Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic in Lukavica."
11 Do you recall any meeting you had directly with Mr. Bezrouchenko
12 in the absence of Mr. Harland?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're absolutely correct,
14 Your Honour. I made a mistake. This is evidently a meeting of
15 Bezrouchenko and myself, so I cannot say that I recall this specific
16 meeting, but I had many meetings with him. This was not the only one.
17 But I remember that it was a question of after the closure of closing the
18 Bratstvo i Jedinstvo Bridge, how to resolve the problem of civilians that
19 remained on each side. The bridge was opened for the civilians. So it's
20 my error when I mentioned Harland. The reason why I specifically cannot
21 say anything about this meeting with Bezrouchenko is that there were many
22 meetings with Bezrouchenko.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you recall any meeting with Mr. Bezrouchenko
24 when you talked about hitting the TV tower?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall that meeting, no.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Did you participate in meetings related to the state commission
4 for the exchange of prisoners of war?
5 A. In principle, yes, only when it was necessary to organise
6 something in the technical sense, because there was an official state
7 commission headed by Dragan Bulajic and he dealt with all the things that
8 had to do with exchanges.
9 Q. What were you organising in the technical sense?
10 A. Since the meetings were mostly held, as I said earlier, on
11 neutral territory at Sarajevo airport, it was necessary to co-ordinate
12 the time, to organise the transport, these technical details about the
13 way in which people would get to the place of the meeting.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to make a short correction of the
16 MR. WEBER: Sure.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page 73, line 23, I said it shows that
18 Bezrouchenko sent this memo to Mr. Harland. This should be correct. And
19 not Mr. Bezrouchenko.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. During these meetings, is it correct that it would be discussed,
23 locations where people were being detained?
24 A. I say again, in principle, I did not take part in exchange
25 negotiations in the professional sense but in the technical sense, in
1 organising the meetings.
2 Q. Okay. Before we move on to another document, do you agree that
3 it is improper to hold women, children, and elderly men in detention
5 A. Yes, I absolutely agree.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, actually for this next document, if we
7 could go into private session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into --
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: -- Mr. Weber, is it possible for -- to see what is
12 written at the bottom of this page that is on the screen under the
13 heading: "Corridor via Igman"?
14 MR. WEBER: I can make it out with some difficulty.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: We don't have a copy that would be clearer?
16 MR. WEBER: We can provide copies of the document to the Chamber,
17 if you'd like -- or --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm interested in that sentence.
19 MR. WEBER: Or if the court officer could blow up the last
20 exhibit. I believe it is P6711. And, Your Honour, I believe you were
21 inquiring about page 1 at the very bottom.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the English version.
23 MR. WEBER: In the English version.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: In the English version.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which is not on the screen.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did you say you don't have a clearer copy?
2 MR. WEBER: It is -- it is still difficult. Not uploaded
3 electronically. In a hard copy I can make out most of the words except
4 probably for the fourth or fifth one.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm missing --
6 MR. WEBER: This is -- yeah.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- two words, as a matter of fact. I think that all
8 the rest is --
9 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- legible. What I see is that the previous lines
11 ends with "to cut a corridor along this," and then there is two words
12 where the second may be something of defence, the first one I have
13 difficulties in reading, and then it continues: "... will meet fierce and
14 determined resistance of the BSA ..."
15 That seems to be --
16 MR. WEBER: And, Your Honours, I believe that -- Ms. Stewart
17 informs me - I can see on her screen also - that if it's made just the
18 English version and it's blown up, that bottom portion specifically, even
19 more than this, that the full sentence may be legible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: My staff member, who is always of great assistance,
21 suggested that it could read:
22 "Along this route by force will meet fierce and determined
24 If the parties could agree.
25 MR. WEBER: That's what I'm reading on Ms. Stewart's screen right
1 now, so do I agree with that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any dispute about this last line,
3 Mr. Stojanovic?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We just wanted to check,
5 Your Honours, because we do have the B/C/S translation, so we wanted to
6 see if that corresponds to the original and then we will --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now you --
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- state our position on that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The proper order is the other way around - that is,
10 to check in the original whether the translation is accurate or not.
11 Let's move on.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I asked if we could move into private
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we move into private session.
15 [Private session]
11 Pages 25155-25163 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Indjic, whatever you have heard or seen in private session is
11 confidential. You should not only now but never share that information
12 with anyone else. That is an order by this Court. And heavy penalties
13 can be imposed if you violate such an order.
14 I also instruct you, but that's separate from what I just said,
15 that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever
16 about your testimony, whether you gave it today or whether it's still to
17 be given tomorrow. And we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at
19 By the way, this -- the first order I gave you is without any
20 time-limit. It's valid forever. The instruction I gave you as far as
21 discussing your testimony is a different one and that will extend up to
22 the moment where you have finally concluded your -- giving your evidence.
23 We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same
24 courtroom. You may now follow the usher.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,
2 Wednesday, the 3rd of September, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
3 courtroom, II.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd day of
6 September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.