1 Wednesday, 3 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
9 number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 There are a few matters I just would like to share with the
13 First of all, we were informed that the Prosecution expects to
14 need just over one session for further cross-examination.
15 MR. WEBER: That's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. WEBER: Of course, pending on the answers of the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. WEBER: How far I go into that next session will depend.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I also was informed that the Defence and the
21 Prosecution agreed that an earlier version of a document which was
22 yesterday admitted into evidence, that both parties would wish that
23 previous version to be in evidence. Therefore, I take it that we'll make
24 it a Prosecution exhibit.
25 Madam Registrar, 65 ter 10178, as evidence presented by the
1 Prosecution and not objected to by the Defence, would receive number?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Number P6712, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P6712 is admitted into evidence.
4 I think I'm at a point where we already could ask the usher to
5 escort the witness into the courtroom.
6 The Chamber announces that its autumn non-sitting week will be
7 the week of the 6th of October. That's a week which starts with -- the
8 first Monday is, I think, a UN holiday, but we'll not sit the remainder
9 of that week.
10 Then, Mr. Weber, the Chamber has heard evidence about the role of
11 Mr. Indjic before from other witnesses, especially the importance of his
12 role, his function, limits to that. The Chamber wonders whether it would
13 not be appropriate under Rule 90(H)(ii) to put to the witness what the
14 Prosecution's case is in this respect.
15 I leave it apart at this moment whether, at the time, with those
16 other witnesses, whether the Defence has challenged or tested that
17 evidence given by those witnesses about the role of the present witness.
18 Then finally one short item. On the 18th of June, the Defence
19 filed a 92 ter motion for Witness Bosko Gvozden. On the 7th of July, the
20 Prosecution filed its response, not objecting to the Rule 92 ter motion
21 provided that certain paragraphs of the witness's statement are redacted
22 as they are related to events outside the geographic, chronological or
23 subject matter scope of the indictment.
24 The Defence filed a request for leave to reply on the 9th of July
25 with its reply annexed, and the Chamber hereby grants the Defence's
1 motion for leave to reply to the Prosecution's 92 ter response.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Indjic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you
6 are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning
7 of your testimony, that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
8 nothing but the truth. Mr. Weber will now continue his
10 Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
11 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: MILENKO INDJIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Indjic.
16 A. [In English] Good morning.
17 Q. Yesterday at transcript page 25106 to page 07, you testified that
18 the UNPROFOR headed by General Rose established without any doubt that
19 the shelling of the public health institute had come from the Muslim
20 positions. You testified that you'd received information about Cymbeline
21 radar in this event from British officers that you were in contact with
22 at the time rather than from any written report or letter from UNPROFOR.
23 You also said:
24 "I know that General Rose went to see Silajdzic to lodge a strong
25 protest about what was happening."
1 This is at transcript page 25109. Do you recall this testimony?
2 A. I do with just one correction. It was not the health institute
3 building that was fired at but the sector near that building. The
5 Q. Okay. So noted. When Judge Orie -- about this event, when
6 Judge Orie asked you about the date of that shelling, you said at
7 transcript page 25109, lines 10 through 13:
8 "I know that this was in 1993 before Alija Izetbegovic left for
9 Washington to a meeting at which the lifting of weapons embargo imposed
10 on the Muslim side was supposed to be lifted."
11 Mr. Indjic, this Chamber has heard the evidence of General Rose
12 in this case and has received evidence that he served as the UNPROFOR
13 forces -- with the UNPROFOR forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina starting from
14 the 5th of January, 1994. I put it to you that your evidence regarding
15 the shelling is inaccurate and not credible because General Rose was not
16 present in Sarajevo in 1993. Do you have any comment?
17 A. I do have just one comment. I am not ruling out that I made a
18 mistake in the year because I said already at the very beginning that
19 it's hard for me to state the dates, the months, and the years. But as
20 for the event, I assert that I did have information regarding that
21 incident and that's how the incident occurred.
22 Q. Sir, you were quite detailed in your association of why you
23 believed it was 1993 and with General Rose. I put it, in fact, that
24 you -- you are incorrect about this event. It did not happen as you've
1 A. I stand by my assertion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you said: "It did not happen as you have
3 explained." That is a rather complex question. Do you mean to say it
4 may have happened but not as you explained in 1993, or it may have
5 happened but not before the meeting in - where was it? - in Washington
6 took place? I mean, what's the issue?
7 MR. WEBER: I'm putting it to him that it didn't happen.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It didn't happen at all.
9 MR. WEBER: It's not credible evidence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you say such an event, that is, a shell being
11 fired and detected by the Cymbeline system and in the area of the health
12 institute, did not happen.
13 MR. WEBER: In 1993 which he associates his meetings with
14 General Rose --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. WEBER: -- and all that other stuff so --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So there are two questions: Did it happen at
18 all? And the second question is: If it happened, did it happen in 1993?
19 These are two distinct questions.
20 MR. WEBER: Maybe I'll even just make it more simple.
21 Q. Sir, I put it to you that your recollection of this event is not
23 A. I stand by the description of the event that happened and I
24 assert that the event happened the way I described it.
25 Q. Okay. We have that on the record.
1 MR. WEBER: May I turn into private session?
2 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
3 By the way, Mr. Weber, while waiting for being in private
4 session --
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 25172-25179 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MR. WEBER:
6 Q. Sir, did you receive protests about the supply of utilities to
7 the city of Sarajevo?
8 A. There were different kinds of protests, including letters related
9 to utilities.
10 Q. Okay. Let's go through some materials.
11 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30749 for
12 the witness.
13 Q. Sir, I just wanted to see -- you to see the document, the first
14 page, before we move on to some of its contents. This is a
15 27 September 1994 document from Vojislav Maksimovic of the RS Serbian
16 City Assembly of Sarajevo to the Republika Srpska president,
17 President Karadzic, and the RS Assembly president and prime minister.
18 The document relates to a session that we can see in its beginning part
19 that was held -- a session of the city assembly that was held on
20 16 September 1994, and at the end of this document there are requests for
21 talks to resolve certain issues.
22 I would like to discuss with you one of these particular issues.
23 MR. WEBER: Could we please have page 4 in both versions.
24 Q. Under item 9, the document states:
25 "In the most recent using of Sarajevo for the purpose of raising
1 and lowering tensions in the whole of former Bosnia-Herzegovina ..."
2 MR. WEBER: If we could please have the next page in the English.
3 Q. "... (cutting off of electricity, water, and gas), about
4 40.000 households in Serbian Sarajevo have suffered considerable
5 financial damage. The damage is estimated at about 10 million German
7 Is it correct that the Bosnian Serb military and political
8 leaders used the provision or deprivation of utilities to either raise or
9 lower tensions in Sarajevo?
10 A. I don't know.
11 Q. In the next paragraph the document states:
12 "The Assembly believes that such activities should be carried out
13 with prior consulting and informing of the political organs ..."
14 Now, we saw this document was addressed to President Karadzic
15 among others. I put it to you that the reason this local RS Assembly is
16 requesting consultations with President Karadzic prior to these
17 activities being carried out is because the raising or lowering of
18 tensions through the use of utilities was being done by the Bosnian Serbs
19 including the VRS. Do you have any comment?
20 A. No, I don't. I know nothing about this.
21 Q. How is it that the local Republika Srpska city assembly of
22 Sarajevo is aware of Bosnian Serbs raising and lowering tensions through
23 the provision of utilities and you, as a senior officer in the SRK, are
24 not? Could you explain that to us? This was your zone of responsibility
25 you dealt with every day.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. This is
3 a misrepresentation, a misquote. In line 17 we read that Bosnian Serbs
4 are doing what is written here, whereas in the entire paragraph 9 we
5 don't see who is doing it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER:
8 Q. Sir --
9 MR. WEBER: Well, Your Honours, the Assembly -- the RS city
10 assembly is addressing -- addressing the president of Republika Srpska to
11 inform them prior to carrying out these activities. I tried to
12 encapsulate that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you would rephrase it and perhaps then
14 replace the word "Bosnian Serbs" by what you wanted to refer to.
15 MR. WEBER: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. Sir, in this document, the RS city assembly of Sarajevo is
19 addressing President Karadzic. My question to you is: How is this local
20 RS city assembly aware that these problems should be addressed with
21 President Karadzic and you are not aware of them as a senior officer of
22 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps? Could you explain that to us?
23 A. I can. Obviously this is a question that should be addressed to
24 Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic who wrote this, not me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Witness, the question was whether you can
1 explain why you had no knowledge. That is a question we can't put to
2 Mr. Maksimovic because you're the only one who could explain why you had
3 no knowledge under those circumstances. Would you please answer the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot be aware if
6 I didn't get any information about something, if nobody informed me.
7 This letter was addressed to President Karadzic. I don't know anything
8 about this.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is that the persons in the city assembly
10 apparently were aware and that you as a professional liaison officer were
11 not. The question is whether you have any explanation for that. And if
12 you say, "I've got no explanation for that," then please tell us. Or if
13 you say, "Any information about this never reached me," tell us. But
14 please answer the question.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, such information
16 never reached me. I had nothing to do with utilities such as electrical
17 power. Why there is none, if there is none.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER:
20 Q. Sir, I put it to you that your answer there is incredible - not
21 credible - because you did have contacts with internationals and those
22 you received requests from related to utilities. And, in fact, you were
23 aware that tensions were being raised and lowered in the city of Sarajevo
24 through the provision of utilities.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The question now is whether you agree or whether you
2 MR. WEBER: Yes, I'm sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's what Mr. Weber wanted to ask you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not agree.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this
6 document into evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 30749 receives number P6714,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: P6714 is admitted.
11 Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I even
13 received the interpretation, we will object to this for the reason that
14 this document has nothing to do with the witness, and the witness has
15 been explicit in saying that he is seeing the document for the first time
16 and he knows nothing about it. He is not the right person through which
17 to introduce this evidence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the objection is denied. I think we
19 ruled many, many times that if there is a document which is directly
20 related to matters about which the witness testified, that that is in
21 itself a good reason to tender it at that moment and not to tender it
22 separately as a bar table document.
23 The decision that P6714 is admitted therefore stands.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31183 for
1 the witness. And there is no B/C/S translation currently available for
3 Q. This is a UNMO sitrep dated 12 October 1992. And so you have it,
4 I'll read out the full section. I'd like to draw you to a part of
5 section 2 of this document. It's the daily sitrep related to the 11th to
6 the 12th of October, 1992.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should state who sent it to whom.
8 MR. WEBER: It's a -- thank you, Your Honour. It's from UNMO
9 Sector Sarajevo to the CMO UNPROFOR in Zagreb.
10 Q. In section 2 related to operations, it states in full:
11 "I was in attendance at meeting today between Major-General
12 Morillon and Serb and Croat representatives. Meeting concerned selection
13 of location BiH HQ and regarding convoy corridor between Split and
14 Sarajevo. In particular, I had discussions with the key Serb reps,
15 Dr. Kalovic and General Gvero concerning movement of the L12," which our
16 position would be Lima 12, "position and progress of utility repair
17 missions. In both discussions they seemed very receptive to my concerns
18 and I expect to achieve some progress as a result."
19 I gave you that just for context. The next part is the one that
20 I would like to ask you about. It says:
21 "A related discussion concerned the difficulties we have had with
22 their new Serb liaison officer Mr. Misa Indjic. Mr. Indjic has been
23 obstructing progress of utility repair missions in particular and been so
24 obviously partisan in approach, I wrote my concerns to the sector COS,"
25 which we would say stands for Chief of Staff, "who addressed them to
1 Mr. Indjic. As a result, Mr. Indjic became sufficiently so upset to
2 leave the PTT building today and with any luck he will be replaced."
3 So I'm just going to stop there. The name in here says
4 Misa Indjic. In terms of what I just read to you, do you understand that
5 to be you?
6 A. I just understood -- I just realised that it is not about me
7 because this report is dated 12 October and it refers to a new liaison
8 officer. And if you remember, I was the liaison officer from the
9 establishment of the UN mission from March 1991 -- 1992.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Second, I left the PTT building at
12 the end of August or beginning of September. And this reference here is
13 to October. I don't understand who misused my name to misrepresent
15 MR. WEBER:
16 Q. Okay. Let's go step by step here. There is reference in this
17 document to Misa Indjic. Do you understand those references to be to
18 you? Regardless of whether the other information you're commenting on is
19 correct or not.
20 A. I understand. I am Misa Indjic.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. That's short for my name.
23 Q. All right. Do you recall an occasion where you walked out of the
24 PTT building in October of 1992, particularly the 11th?
25 A. I don't recall because I couldn't have walked out in October
1 because I wasn't in the PTT building then.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could we try to make a clear distinction. Did you
3 intend to say you never entered the PTT building in October 1992, or do
4 you intend to say that you didn't have an office at the PTT building in
5 October 1992?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I meant the first.
7 After I left the office when I received threats that Dr. Lukic and I
8 would be killed, I never returned to the PTT building again.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You never attended any meeting in that building?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my recollection,
11 after that period I did not.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER:
15 Q. Was there any occasions before that you left the PTT building
16 where you walked out on a member of UNPROFOR or an UNMO?
17 A. Could you just be more specific? Do you mean that I interrupted
18 a meeting and walked out? If that's what you mean, no.
19 Q. All right. Sir, I put it to you that in the view of the UNMOs,
20 you were in fact not helpful to the resolution of matters related to
21 utilities and in fact took a partisan approach. Do you agree?
22 A. I don't.
23 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would tender this document into
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31183 receives number P --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
4 THE INTERPRETER: There is no microphone for counsel.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please activate your microphone.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I thought I heard -- I don't
7 think this document can be received because there is no English [as
8 interpreted] translation. It can only be MFI'd pending translation into
10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Weber accepts that.
11 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31183 receives number P6715,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P6715 is marked for identification.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. WEBER:
17 Q. Mr. Indjic, we'll come back and discuss this date a little bit
18 later, but before continuing, is it correct that the Bosnian Serbs cut
19 off electricity to the city of Sarajevo on 26 May 1995, that being the
20 same date that UNMOs were taken captive by the SRK?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution then have 65 ter 19237, page 4
24 of the English original and page 6 of the translation.
25 Q. Mr. Indjic, coming up before you is a 4 June 1995 UNPROFOR
1 Sarajevo weekly situation report for the week of 29 May to 4 June 1995.
2 On the screen before you is a section that's entitled -- it's section 3,
3 related to humanitarian and human rights issues. The section starts:
4 "The utilities situation in Sarajevo since 26 May has been
5 critical. On the 26 May, Bosnian Serbs cut off the electricity supplies
6 to the city. As a result, water could not be pumped into the city."
7 Do you now recall that the utilities were cut off on this date?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 7 of the
10 English and page 9 of the B/C/S. I'm going to be referring to item 24.
11 Q. Under item 24, the situation report states:
12 "Civil Affairs has had two meetings with
13 Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic of the BSA on the same issues of the welfare of
14 the hostages and the grim utilities situation."
15 Sir, according to this report, the grim utilities situation at
16 the time was addressed with you. Do you now recall these meetings?
17 A. I don't. For the reason that throughout the war, there had been
18 difficult periods when there were shortages and cut-offs of electricity,
19 water, and gas because of events on the front lines and problems that
20 occurred as a result of combat operations.
21 Q. Okay. I -- sir, based on the information we looked at today, I
22 put to you that that's not a fully accurate statement. I acknowledge
23 that there were occasions that certain lines were hit on certain specific
24 times. However, I put it to you that you are failing to include the fact
25 that Bosnian Serbs cut off the supply of utilities at times to raise and
1 lower tensions in the city of Sarajevo. Do you have any other comment?
2 A. I don't know that.
3 MR. WEBER: Okay. We've already been through that, Your Honours.
4 The Prosecution tenders 65 ter -- this 65 ter into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19237 receives number P6716,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I see it's break time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Before we take that break, Witness, you earlier referred to your
12 diary. Is that the diary you're obliged to keep as an army officer?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, those were my personal notes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever shared those notes with any of the
15 parties before this Tribunal?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I kept them by chance in case
17 I decide to write a book one day.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are contemporary notes? Or do they
19 include contemporary notes?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those are notes that I kept
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are you willing to make them available?
23 Because in your statement, I read in paragraph 28 that you're struggling
24 with speaking decisively about dates, et cetera, et cetera, and those
25 notes might assist in reconstructing the events in those years. Are you
1 willing to make them available?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to think about it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us where you keep these notes?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I kept them in my office and I had
5 a little notebook in my bag when I was going somewhere into the field.
6 JUDGE ORIE: My question was where do you keep them, not where
7 you kept them.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're in my possession in
9 Banja Luka.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you where.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my house in Banja Luka. My own
12 house. In my possession.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Indjic, the Chamber is considering how to
15 proceed in this respect, but let's first take a break. We would like to
16 see you back in 20 minutes.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, how much time would you need after the
20 MR. WEBER: It did go slower than I expected so I think I'll use
21 more of the next section than I anticipated. I may go through, actually,
22 the next session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we take a break and will resume at
24 5 minutes to 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologizes for the late point in time
3 where we resume. And we are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
4 the courtroom.
5 MR. WEBER: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: -- to facilitate things, I'm going to be going to
8 65 ter 31180, e-court page 7.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Both languages?
10 MR. WEBER: It's a transcript, so it's only available in English.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's a transcript. Yes.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31180,
15 page 7.
16 Q. Mr. Indjic, before the break we left off discussing your diary.
17 I'd like to look at a statement that you've made with respect to this
18 during your interview with Investigator Hogan in 2001. The question that
19 was posed to you through the interpreter was:
20 "... did you keep a diary of all these meetings?"
21 Your answer was:
22 "I took minutes of the meetings ... since it was normal that
23 reports were written after the meetings ... and since the liaison officer
24 is usually technical staff, he had to take minutes ... Unfortunately,
25 most of them have been destroyed ... Since I've moved four times since
1 the end of the war ... I moved privately, so I tried to reduce my luggage
2 each time."
3 That's what you told Investigator Hogan in 2001; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At that time, you were aware that the Office of the Prosecutor
6 was investigating events that occurred in Sarajevo between 1992 and 1995;
8 A. I did not know. Had I known that I did not have to attend this
9 meeting, I wouldn't have attended it. I was misled.
10 Q. Okay. That -- that really wasn't my question. Or it's actually
11 not clear from your answer. Were you aware that the Office of the
12 Prosecutor was investigating events that occurred in Sarajevo during the
13 war? It appeared to be the subject of the conversation throughout the
14 entire interview.
15 A. I was not told why I was asked for this interview and what the
16 subject was that the investigator was exploring.
17 Q. Okay.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you again focus on the question. No
19 one asked you whether you were told about that. The simple question was
20 whether you were aware that the Prosecutor was investigating events that
21 occurred in Sarajevo during the war. Were you aware of that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not during that period, no.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you -- let's try to put things straight.
24 You were not aware that the Prosecutor before this Tribunal was
25 investigating, among other matters, the events in Sarajevo during the
1 war? You were not aware of that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't even know that
3 Barry Hogan was from the Prosecutor's Office. All I knew was that he was
4 a Tribunal investigator but I didn't know what his function was.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But what did you think they were investigating apart
6 from events during the war, including Sarajevo?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't think anything. Believe
8 me. I was told that I had to come and so I did.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Again, I didn't ask you what was told to you. I'm
10 asking you whether you were aware that the Prosecutor's Office was
11 investigating events in Sarajevo during the war. You may have read it in
12 a newspaper, you may have heard it, you may have -- whatever source of
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, okay. You didn't know that the
16 Prosecutor's Office was investigating events during the war including
18 Please proceed, Mr. Weber.
19 MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution have page 2 of this
20 65 ter 31180.
21 Q. I'm going to read to you about the -- how the whole interview
22 started. What was translated to you at the very outset of the interview
24 "My name is Barry Hogan. I'm an investigator in the Office of
25 the Prosecutor of the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague ...
1 thank you for responding to the Prosecutor's summons today ... and you've
2 noticed that you've been summoned as a witness, not as an accused, or
3 rather, not as a suspect ... and the purpose of today's interview is to
4 ask you questions about events in Sarajevo from 1991 to 1995 ... as you
5 know, we have indicted General Stanislav Galic for the events ... the
6 interview will be conducted in English and in Serbian ... do we have any
7 problems understanding each other?"
8 Your answer was:
9 "No problems."
10 That was what was communicated to you at the very beginning of
11 the interview; correct?
12 A. That is correct. This has now jogged my memory now that you have
13 read it to me.
14 Q. With respect to your diary, is it correct that you misinformed
15 Investigator Hogan that your -- most of your diary has been destroyed?
16 A. I'm saying the same thing that I said a little bit before. It
17 was not a diary that I wrote regularly. It was just an occasional thing
18 and it was destroyed. It was not something that I recorded daily. And
19 it was not -- it was destroyed.
20 Q. Is what you said to the Chamber today accurate, then, in terms of
21 you have notes or a diary available currently in your possession in
22 Banja Luka in your house?
23 A. It's correct that I do have some personal notes, not a diary but
24 some personal notes, in my house in Banja Luka.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. WEBER: I think I've sufficiently discussed this with the
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put an additional question to the witness
4 in that respect.
5 Now you are saying there are some notes and it was not a diary.
6 Do you remember that you told the Chamber, this can be found on page 11,
7 line 19:
8 "I have the names of those women in my diary that I am keeping in
9 Banja Luka."
10 You called it a diary. Can you explain that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps there is a
12 different interpretation of something. My interpretation of a diary is
13 when you write down every day what happened, day by day by dates. This
14 other thing is just an agenda, a notebook where I jot down things that I
15 thought were important to me. So it was not done every day, not every
16 event was written down, but it was just notes taken from time to time
17 about things that I felt I shouldn't forget.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand that, but you used the word "diary."
19 It's your word. You said that. And you even referred to names of women
20 detained under the authority of the ABiH.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise if I created any
22 confusion. I just explain. So it wasn't a diary in the sense of writing
23 down everything that happened every day. These were just notes about
24 important things that I wrote down in my appointment diary.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Those notes are still available?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hope that I do have them. Now I
6 can't even assert that.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: You told us before the break that they are in your
8 house in Banja Luka.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I know where I left
10 them at the last time, in a chest in one of the outbuildings on the -- in
11 the attic, so I hope that they are still there.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: You told us you have them in your house. Just
13 don't stop -- don't add on things that you didn't say.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I read to you your testimony in this
15 respect. I said:
16 "My question was where you keep them, not where you kept them.
17 "They are in my possession in Banja Luka."
18 Then I said:
19 "I asked you where.
20 "In my house in Banja Luka. My own house. In my possession."
21 That is a clear confirmation that you're keeping it, not kept it
22 but keeping it, in your house in Banja Luka. And the Chamber observes
23 that you are in some respects - that is, the characterisation of the
24 notes as a diary and in respect of where you keep them - that you are
25 stepping back from what you told us earlier. I leave it to that.
1 Mr. Weber, please proceed.
2 MR. WEBER:
3 Q. Is it correct that you did not inform Investigator Hogan of the
4 presence of any notes in your possession during your interview?
5 A. Correct. I didn't feel that it was necessary. These are my
6 private notes.
7 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'll just take care of one other ...
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: In view of your answers to the question, Mr. Indjic,
10 the Chamber hereby issues an order that you should keep - that is,
11 preserve - all personal notes, notebooks, diaries, whatever you call
12 them, which contain any entries about what happened during the war. And
13 this is an order which means that you can't get rid of them. You are not
14 allowed to get rid of them. You should keep them. You can't give them
15 to anyone else. And this order is not only addressed to you but it also
16 includes an order to the public, whomever it is, not to dispose of this
18 Such an order is given pursuant to Rule 54 of the Rules of
19 Procedure and Evidence, and the violation of such an order is punishable,
20 maximum penalty seven years of imprisonment if such an order is violated
21 and/or a fine, and I think the fine is 200.000 or 100.000 euros.
22 But -- so anyone who disposes of this material, you, anyone else,
23 is punishable by heavy penalties. Is this clear to you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's clear.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So you should keep them, make them available. If
1 you say, "I'm willing to give them voluntarily," and you earlier said
2 that you would consider that, to make them available, of course you have
3 an opportunity still to do that, that -- which doesn't in any way change
4 the order. But please tell us if you're willing to share it with us. If
5 not, you're anyhow ordered to keep them at this moment, not to dispose of
6 them. It is clear to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you may proceed.
9 MR. WEBER:
10 Q. Mr. Indjic, I'm going to go just to another quick section in this
11 transcript. It's completely unrelated to what we've been talking to but
12 I just wanted to do it since we have this on the screen.
13 MR. WEBER: If I could please go to transcript page 24.
14 Q. The question that was interpreted to you was:
15 "How did they know, for instance, if a request like this came:
16 'Stop firing because they are under fire at these UNMO observation
17 positions,' how did they know what brigade, what unit to send the
18 cease-fire request to?"
19 Your answer was:
20 "The first information on the type and direction of fire usually
21 came from the UNMO position ... on the type and direction of fire ...
22 because professional" soldiers "were at the positions of the military
23 observers" -- "professional officers," sorry, "were at the positions of
24 the military observers ... Er, the configuration of the terrain around
25 Sarajevo also largely indicates from which direction it is possible to
1 fire in a certain direction ... and thirdly, in direct contact between
2 the duty operations officer and the brigade commanders, within several
3 minutes it was ... objectively possible to find out what sector the fire
4 was coming from ... but usually the military observers themselves, when
5 they submitted a protest, indicated the type of fire, therefore, what it
6 was about, whether it was artillery fire, the approximate calibre, and
7 the direction it was coming from."
8 Do you stand by this statement you made during your interview in
10 A. I do.
11 MR. WEBER: I'm all done with the transcript. I don't know if
12 Your Honours have any follow-up questions on it.
13 Q. I'm just going to go through a couple of quick topics to see if
14 we can relatively finish up here.
15 Is it correct that during the war you received approximately a
16 hundred protest letters about sniper fire?
17 A. I can't be sure about the number, but I did receive a lot of
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. WEBER: Could I please have the Galic transcript, not to be
21 broadcast to the public, and -- but I believe this is open session during
22 the testimony, but I'm requesting it not to be broadcast to the public
23 because it does have closed session. If that's okay. Pages -- page 24,
24 65 ter 31178.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It now seems as if we are moving into private
1 session. Did I understand you well that the portion you want to read to
2 the witness is open session?
3 MR. WEBER: It's my understanding it is, according to my notes
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then therefore what would not be visible on the
6 screen - that is, a document which is -- the document is confidential but
7 for the reasons that other portions of it are in private session or in
8 closed session, under those circumstances, without showing the document I
9 think you could read --
10 MR. WEBER: Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- from those portions. And then if we would have
12 an opportunity to look at it, it not being broadcasted to the public,
13 that would certainly assist us.
14 MR. WEBER: Thank you. Your Honour said it much better than I.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, is this portion of the transcript which
17 is publicly available on the internet, for example?
18 MR. WEBER: It is.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then --
20 MR. WEBER: If I can see the top of the date just to confirm?
21 Yes, I see it's in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I think we don't have any problems.
23 MR. WEBER: Okay.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And even what could be seen by the public gallery is
25 still public.
1 MR. WEBER: Thank you very much. I didn't mean to cause
2 confusion. I just was trying to be cautious. I -- I didn't -- thank
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. WEBER: If I could have the lower portion of the page.
6 Q. And, sir, I'm just going to be asking you to see if you can
7 confirm your previous answers. Starting on line 20, in the Galic case
8 you were asked:
9 "Q. How many times in that relevant period, September 1992 to
10 August 1994, did you receive protests alleging that snipers had shot
11 civilians? Just an approximate number."
12 Your answer was:
13 "You're trying to make me say again that a sniper hit civilians.
14 I don't remember any protests according to which snipers hit civilians.
15 But protests to the effect that sniper fire had been opened ..."
16 MR. WEBER: If we could have the next page.
17 Q. "... I may have received about a hundred such protests."
18 Do you stand by that evidence?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you continue to get protests about sniping through the end of
21 the war? So from August 1994 through the end of 1995?
22 A. I received protests all the time when I was liaison officer; that
23 means, until the end of the war.
24 Q. I put it to you -- and I'm going to try economise time here.
25 This Chamber has received evidence that actually protests regarding
1 sniping did involve civilians. So I'm going to put it to you that that
2 part of your answer is inaccurate, that the protests did not refer to
3 civilians. Do you have any comment on that or do you agree?
4 A. I don't agree with that. As I explained in my testimony also in
5 the Galic case, any infantry fire was treated as sniper fire, which made
6 for even more confusion.
7 Q. You're again not really directing my -- directly answering my
8 questions. Are you saying -- are you still maintaining that the protests
9 did not refer to civilians or do you agree with me that that is not
10 accurate, that the protest letters did refer to civilians?
11 A. I can't remember that now.
12 Q. Okay. I'll move on. With respect to humanitarian convoys, is it
13 correct that the authority to decide on the delivery of humanitarian aid
14 through these convoys was with the VRS Main Staff and even the corps
15 commander was not able to approve the passage of humanitarian convoys?
16 Do you agree?
17 A. There was an order to approve the passage of humanitarian convoys
18 at the level of the VRS Main Staff. Yes, I agree.
19 Q. Okay. And this was the order that was applied with respect to
20 humanitarian convoys? Just so it's clear to you, I'm not -- I'm not
21 isolating it to one specific instance or order in my question. I'm
22 asking more broadly, is it the authority -- the authority to decide on
23 the delivery of humanitarian aid convoys rested with the VRS Main Staff?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: I think the previous answer answers that question.
25 MR. WEBER: Okay. If it's clear. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31184. There is no
2 B/C/S translation available.
3 Q. Sir, this is a document, though, that you were previously shown
4 during your Karadzic testimony.
5 Before you is an article by the Associated Press dated
6 26 May 1995 entitled: "French UN Platoon Surrenders to Bosnian Serbs."
7 In paragraph 4 it reads, so the fourth from the top, it reads:
8 "An Associated Press reporter watched Serbs take over 21 French
9 soldiers who had been guarding Serb guns turned over to the UN at this
10 barracks in a Serb-held suburb of Sarajevo."
11 Do you see this portion? I just would like you to orient
12 yourself before I continue.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'll just read you exactly what it says, then. It says:
15 "A Serb officer, Lt. Col. Milenko Indjic first tried to coax the
16 French into surrender. He entered the UN quarters, unarmed, to
18 "The French commander said he had orders not to surrender.
19 "Indjic then ordered military police to take positions and
20 prepare to fire. For three minutes, automatic rifle fire targeted the
21 building where the 21 Frenchmen were."
22 There is then a quote in the article.
23 "'Hold fire and watch for a white flag,' ordered Vuko Cvoro, the
24 commanding Serb officer.
25 "No flag appeared. Two rocket-propelled grenades hit a truck and
1 an APC. Minutes later, the French surrendered without firing a shot."
2 There is then a quote:
3 "'Your politicians put you in this situation,' Indjic told the
4 French. 'This situation has been forced upon both you and us and we have
5 to do this to try to protect the Serb people from your bombs.'"
6 My question to you is: Do you -- do you recall this incident,
8 A. I remember it very well and I'm proud of what was done here.
9 Q. I take it from your answer, then, that you agree that this
10 article accurately describes the events that you were involved with on
11 the 26th of May, 1995?
12 A. It describes accurately what the journalist was able to see.
13 Q. Okay. So you acknowledge that you fired on the French areas for
14 three minutes, and then after they didn't come out, you fired with
15 rockets, rocket-propelled grenades; that's correct?
16 A. That's right. Because it was an agreement with the French
17 officer to provide him with an alibi in order to surrender.
18 Q. Really? That's what you're saying, that this was -- that firing
19 on the French peacekeepers was a prearranged thing? That they agreed to
20 have rocket-propelled grenades fired at them? That -- is that your
22 A. Shooting at vehicles was prearranged to provide the officer with
23 an alibi so he could surrender.
24 Q. You agree with me that keeping -- that taking international
25 peacekeepers as captives is not in accordance with the regulations of the
1 VRS or, for that matter, with the -- the conventions?
2 A. I did not agree with you on that point because these men were no
3 longer peacekeepers. They were persons who had lost their neutral
5 Q. I know that is your view. Do you agree that the -- that these
6 individuals were taken captive by the SRK after this event? I'm not
7 talking about characterisations as to status of prisoners of war or
8 hostage, I'm just asking you factually were they taken captive?
9 A. I agree.
10 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we decide on that I have a few more
13 Mr. Indjic, you said that the journalist described accurately
14 what he could see. He also gives a few quotes including quotes of what
15 you would have said. Are they accurate as well?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's true.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Are the quotes of other persons accurate as well,
18 such as "Hold fire and watch for a white flag," which is not said by you
19 but by someone else? Are the other quotes accurate as well?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They're accurate because I had told
21 Captain Cvoro that a white flag will be hoisted and to wait for the
22 moment when he sees the white flag.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Madam Registrar, the number would be?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31184 receives number P6717,
1 Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification. I have no
3 translation, Mr. --
4 MR. WEBER: There is a translation requested but not yet
5 available, thank you, Your Honour. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore it will be marked for identification. It
7 is marked for identification.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, actually for the next document, I will
10 have to go into private session. Sorry to be --
11 JUDGE ORIE: We --
12 MR. WEBER: -- going back and forth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- move into private session.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 25208-25209 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 MR. WEBER:
18 Q. Sir, I just wanted, before we conclude with -- before I conclude
19 with my examination, I just wanted to give you an opportunity, since the
20 Chamber has heard evidence about you throughout this case, I just wanted
21 to let you describe your relationship with General Mladic during the war
22 and any feelings you have about him still to this day. Could you please
23 do that?
24 A. I have great esteem and respect for General Mladic as the
25 commander and army leader. I am happy that I had the opportunity to meet
1 a man like that in my life and that I had the luck to be under his
2 command. Regardless of how all this ends, General Mladic has entered
3 Serb history in the ranks of Serb heros where his rightful place is. I'm
4 sorry that today he's here, but history marches on and one day history
5 will show us who was right and who was wrong. Thank you.
6 Q. And just to make sure I comply with my obligations here, I just
7 want to give you the opportunity to comment on this. Many witnesses have
8 described you as being close with General Mladic and that you had a more
9 extensive relationship with him than what maybe your position suggested.
10 You've been described, even, as being someone who is very trusted by the
11 General, being his eyes and ears. Do you agree with that?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, Your Honour, I'm not sure should we have
15 the -- I don't know what Mr. Stojanovic is going to say, but I just have
16 some caution for it being in the presence of witness if it relates to the
17 possible answer.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, and I take it Mr. Stojanovic will
19 not tell us what the possible answers would be.
20 But do you want to object, Mr. Stojanovic? Would you then please
21 explain what your objection is without in any way guiding the witness.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour, and I will
23 not guide the witness in any way. I just wanted to ask from whom this
24 quotation is and which witness said something like it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, is there --
1 MR. WEBER: It is RM120, and I don't think I can say a whole lot
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
4 Please, could you answer the question?
5 Perhaps you repeat it, Mr. Weber. At least the last portion --
6 MR. WEBER: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer, it's not a problem.
8 The relationship between me and General Mladic was professional,
9 extremely correct and professional. I am sorry that I did not have a
10 chance to also have a different, friendly, personal relationship with
11 General Mladic.
12 MR. WEBER:
13 Q. Okay. Based on the evidence we heard, I just want to put it to
14 that actually that statement minimises the extent of your relationship
15 with General Mladic. Do you have any additional comments?
16 A. I am not trying neither to minimise nor to maximise. I am
17 describing objectively what our relationship was.
18 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I believe that complies, at least, with
19 our Rule 90(H)(ii) obligation which is why I was asking those questions.
20 I don't know if Your Honours would like me to ask anything else on that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, there is nothing in this moment which comes to
22 my mind but my colleagues may want to think about that.
23 MR. WEBER: If -- if there is, I'm happy to ask whatever
24 questions the Chamber feels appropriate.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. WEBER: No further questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.
3 Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us how much time you would need
4 for the re-examination of the witness?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] During this break I'm going to
6 try to organise myself, but I believe it will take no more than
7 30 minutes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
9 Mr. Indjic, we'll take a break first. If you have made up your
10 mind as to whether you are willing to give the -- the diaries or whatever
11 you call them which you are ordered to preserve and not to dispose of,
12 when you have made up your mind as to whether you want to give it to us,
13 please tell us, because you earlier said you would like to think about
15 We take a break. The witness can be escorted out of the
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: And we resume at quarter past 12.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to re-examine the
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will try to
2 do that as soon as possible -- as quickly as possible.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Indjic, I would just like to clarify some
5 things that arose from today's cross-examination. I would like to ask
6 you to clarify some of these issues. You say --
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is page 28 of
8 today's working version of the transcript.
9 Q. -- that you experienced Barry Hogan's summons in such a way that
10 you felt that you were deceived in a way. So I would like to ask you,
11 what made you draw that conclusion?
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line on page 28?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: I said what line at page 28, Mr. Stojanovic?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't have the
16 line at the moment.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's maybe line 21, where the witness said:
18 "I didn't even know that Barry Hogan was from the Prosecutor's
20 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told that I had to respond to
22 the summons and that is why I did respond. Had I known that I didn't
23 have to do that, I wouldn't have wanted to have been in contact with
24 Barry Hogan at all. I would have waited to be contacted by the Defence.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. On page 32, lines 3 to 5 of today's draft version of
2 the transcript, in response to the question where your notes were
3 physically, notes that you mentioned, you said in one of the outbuildings
4 in the attic in a chest.
5 My question is: When you are giving this specific location, does
6 this correspond to your earlier answer, that it is -- the notes are in
7 your possession and that they are at your house?
8 A. Yes, yes. That is correct. My house in Banja Luka.
9 Rade Radica 230 has two buildings. They are both housing buildings.
10 Q. Thank you. On page 40, lines 10 to 11, in describing this event
11 with the French UNPROFOR contingent in Lukavica, you mention that before
12 fire was opened you had an agreement with the senior officer of the unit
13 regarding their surrender. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber
14 how this happened and how it came about that you had an agreement with
15 the senior officer of this French contingent of UNPROFOR?
16 A. After I received an order from the duty officer at the corps
17 command to place the French contingent under control and to separate them
18 from their weaponry and their communication means, I called the French
19 commanding officer of the unit. If you would like his name, perhaps we
20 could move into closed session because of consideration for him and his
21 career. I know him personally. I summoned him to my office and I told
22 him that I had the order to disarm them and to remove them from -- or
23 deny their access to their communications. I called him not to discuss
24 whether this would be done or not done but to discuss the best way to do
25 this to avoid anybody from getting hurt. We decided to enter the
1 premises where his soldiers were together so that he could explain that
2 to his subordinates. I did that. And this was described in the
3 following way, that I entered the room where the French soldiers were
5 While he was explaining to his soldiers, one officer contacted
6 the French battalion command through the communications devices and the
7 French colonel ordered that the unit must not surrender. This
8 complicated matters. So then I reached an agreement with the commanding
9 officer of the unit, that they should be placed in the room where they
10 were and that we would open fire at the building from outside and at
11 their vehicles.
12 When he would hear the firing stop, they were supposed to come
13 out with a white flag. And then that would provide them with an alibi as
14 to why they surrendered, because he couldn't make any other decision.
15 Q. Thank you. And did you keep to your agreement that you reached
16 with the commanding officer of that unit?
17 A. The agreement was followed to the letter. The weapons and
18 equipment was not taken anywhere out of that facility. It was just
19 locked up in the room which was across from the dormitory where the
20 French soldiers slept. The soldiers stayed in the same rooms where they
21 were before that.
22 There was even a bit of an absurd situation because after that,
23 in negotiations with officers of the French battalion at the airport that
24 were held several times at the line of separation, this French officer
25 went to these negotiations and he had weapons, whereas I was unarmed. So
1 in this kind of strange situation, there were even a few jokes going back
2 and forth as to who was whose prisoner.
3 Q. Did you have any other actions? Did you take any other actions
4 in relation to any other UNPROFOR members in that particular period and
5 outside of the barracks in question?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at document
10 Q. Mr. Indjic, you have the document in front of you. This is a
11 document that you spoke about yesterday. I would just like to direct
12 your attention to one part of the document. It's paragraph 4 --
13 actually, paragraph 3, if we don't count the heading, where this news
14 agency reports, among other things, the following:
15 "However, a Serb official at the Lukavica barracks in the
16 Serb-held district of the city had told UNHCR that his side was prepared
17 to see the man die rather than let the convoy pass, even though Bosnian
18 Serb leader Radovan Karadzic personally approved the evacuation late
19 Monday, said Kessler."
20 My question is this. In view of your answers from yesterday
21 regarding the authenticity and the accuracy of what was reported in this
22 article, so this is my question: At any point during the war, could it
23 have happened that you, as the liaison officer, would act in
24 contravention of what the commander of the armed forces,
25 Radovan Karadzic, personally approved, ordered, or directed?
1 A. I am a professional and everything that the Supreme Commander
2 orders I have to carry out, regardless of whether I like it or not.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document
5 P6711 in e-court, please.
6 Q. This is a document that you also had the opportunity to see
7 yesterday towards the end of the day. I would just like to ask you
8 something about the first paragraph of the document. This is where
9 Viktor Bezrouchenko, on the 29th of June, 1995, informs David Harland of
10 the following:
11 "This morning I had a meeting with Lieutenant-Colonel Indjic at
12 Lukavica. The immediate agenda of the meeting was to arrange transfer of
13 the Serbs and Bosnians who were stuck at the Bosnian and Serb parts of
14 the city after closure of the Bratstvo Jedinstvo Bridge. Besides this
15 matter we also discussed ...," and so on and so forth.
16 My question is this: Do you recall at all any situation in late
17 June 1995 that this transfer of Serbs and Bosnians could refer to after
18 the Bratstvo Jedinstvo Bridge was closed?
19 A. Yes, yes, I do remember that because that was connected to the
20 agreement on blue roads and freedom of movement. One of those Blue
21 Routes was the transfer of civilians across the Bratstvo Jedinstvo
22 Bridge. At one point in time, the Muslims closed the bridge and did not
23 permit anymore crossing so that there was the situation then that people
24 who had crossed over to one or the other side were stuck on the side that
25 they did not live in, so then we had the problem and had to decide and
1 see how we could get them back to where they came from.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now like to ask to see
4 document P6714.
5 Q. And while we're waiting, I just want to -- I ask you this: In
6 these types of transfers, what was the role of representatives of the
7 international community and international organisations? Meaning, this
8 situation of transferring Bosnians and Serbs from one side to the other.
9 A. Generally speaking, UN members didn't have any responsibilities
10 in these matters, but they would seek that the warring parties agree
11 amongst themselves and reach some sort of agreement. And then in that
12 case, the UN would assist in the implementation of such an agreement,
13 also in technical terms, if transport vehicles were required and so on,
14 then they would assist.
15 Q. So the question that would be logical next would be this: What
16 were the duties or responsibilities of the liaison officer, yourself in
17 this case, in such situations?
18 A. Organisational duties.
19 Q. Thank you. This is a document that you had the opportunity to
20 see today.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like us to look at
22 paragraph 9.
23 Q. The Prosecutor put questions to you on paragraph 9. Could you
24 please look at two lines in paragraph 9 --
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On page 5 of the English
1 version. Thank you.
2 Q. It says here regarding electricity and water and gas cuts. My
3 question is this: Do you know where Bosnia-Herzegovina received gas
4 during the wartime period? Where did the gas lines come from?
5 A. The information that I have is that the gas came from Russia and
6 there were always problems regarding the ever-growing debt for this gas.
7 So I know that there were restrictions on the gas supplies because of
8 outstanding debt.
9 Q. If you know, was it technically possible to turn off gas in such
10 a way as to deny gas only to the federal part of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
11 including Muslim-controlled Sarajevo, and keep the gas flowing to the
12 Serb-controlled part?
13 A. That's a technical question. I don't know the answer.
14 Q. If you know, did it ever happen during the war that the gas
15 supplier - that is to say, the Russian company - turned off the gas
16 because of arrears in payments?
17 A. I don't know the answer to that question.
18 Q. How would you comment, if you're able to, the fact that the -- in
19 this letter of the speaker of the assembly of the Serbian Sarajevo,
20 Professor Vojislav Maksimovic, it says that over 40.000 Serb households
21 in Sarajevo have been hit financially to the tune of 10 million
23 A. I don't know the answer again.
24 Q. Thank you. My final question: The last set of questions from
25 the Prosecutor related to your relationship with General Mladic. Do you
1 believe that your relationship with General Mladic during the war went
2 beyond the scope of the professional, the relationship between a superior
3 and a subordinate?
4 A. I believe not.
5 Q. Did you at any point in time enjoy any kind of privileged status
6 compared to other officers of the Main Staff of the VRS?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In the years of the war, did the Main Staff of the VRS have -- in
9 its complement in Crna Rijeka also have liaison officers in charge of
10 relations with the international community?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were these liaison officers in Crna Rijeka physically closer to
13 General Mladic and had more contact with him?
14 A. By virtue of the fact that they were physically in the same
15 location, yes.
16 Q. And in conclusion, would you agree with the assessment made by
17 one of the witnesses that during the war you were General Mladic's eyes
18 and ears?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Mr. Indjic, thank you for answering my questions. I have nothing
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you announced "last question" and
23 then another five questions followed, quite a number of them having been
24 asked and answered previously. But I now --
25 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I -- I really don't have anymore
1 questions for Mr. Indjic, but just -- because the word -- the topic
2 "Blue Routes" came up. We do have a chronology related to Blue Routes.
3 I would just ask if the Defence could consider 65 ter 31182 and whether
4 it be appropriate for admission just so the Chamber has a chronology of
5 the Blue Routes available to it. With that, I have no other questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that the Defence will give you an
7 answer whether they will consider anything in this respect.
8 Mr. Indjic, this concludes your testimony in this court. Before
9 I thank you for coming the long way to The Hague, I would like to know
10 whether you have made up your mind as far as sharing the -- your notes,
11 as you are keeping them in Banja Luka, with the Chamber, whether you are
12 willing to give them to us?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I expected that you
14 would ask me to solve this -- to decide towards the end. I did not
15 intend to make my notes available to you originally, and I then said I
16 needed time to think. However, now I find myself in a very embarrassing
17 situation. I would prefer an officer of the Tribunal to accompany me on
18 my way back from The Hague and not leave me alone for a moment until I
19 retrieve these notes, because if a page turns out to be missing, ripped
20 out from that diary, how I would otherwise be able to prove that it
21 wasn't ripped out 20 years ago. And then I might be open to accusations
22 that I was trying to conceal something. Because you have ordered me to
23 preserve something that nobody knows how many pages it contains. I have
24 not opened that chest in 20 years and I didn't even think of opening it
25 before testifying in the Karadzic or Mladic cases because I thought of
1 them as personal notes that I need not show to anybody.
2 But I am willing to have somebody from here to accompany me until
3 I get to Banja Luka and go to that room and then in the presence of that
4 officer of the Tribunal I would open the chest.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I do understand that you are willing. So
6 apart from concerns you have expressed but that you are willing to hand
7 them over to a Tribunal official. One second, please.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, you're on your feet.
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I don't know if this is something you're
12 considering right now but just on the topic. Obviously, the Office of
13 the Prosecutor does have investigators available in the field if there is
14 someone needed to maintain a chain of custody or to be available to
15 maintain -- to collect the notes, diaries, whatever is there,
16 [indiscernible]. And then aside from that, even if that is not what the
17 Chamber is inclined to do, we would ask that appropriate chain of custody
18 is maintained for it and that the person who does recover it is someone
19 who would be available to testify potentially at proceedings.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is appreciated that you make available
21 investigators but it is not a matter which is primarily focusing at the
22 Prosecution. It is an additional source of information which the Chamber
23 would like to have preserved and is -- will now be made available.
24 The -- together with the Registry, the Chamber staff will work out a
25 scheme by which, Witness, we try to have someone to accompany you upon
1 arrival so as to go home and to retrieve that material and it be handed
2 over to a Tribunal official.
3 You will receive further instructions in that respect from the
4 Victims and Witness Section. They'll explain to you exactly how it will
5 work out.
6 Meanwhile, you should refrain from any contact, any communication
7 of whatever kind, about this part of your testimony. So usually you are
8 free to speak to anyone after you have concluded your testimony, but here
9 you have an extended duty not to discuss any matter in relation to your
10 testimony with whomever, and that until you have received a message from
11 VWS, that is, the Victims and Witness Section, that the -- this
12 restriction does not any further reply -- applies.
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: A few further observations.
15 First of all, once this material has been received the Chamber
16 intends to make it primarily available to the parties so that they can
17 verify whether there is -- it assists in their search for the truth.
18 Second, hereby the Victims and Witness Section is instructed to arrange
19 for accompanying the witness and to receive the material he hands over,
20 and then, of course, to keep a clear record of a chain of custody on from
21 that moment.
22 Yes. And then I come to the point where I stopped earlier. That
23 is, that I would like to thank you not only for coming to The Hague but
24 also for your offer to share with the Tribunal the material you have in
25 your possession, and I wish you a safe return home again. And as you
1 know, you'll not be alone on your way home. At least the last part,
2 you'll be accompanied by a Tribunal official.
3 You may follow the usher.
4 Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't need the
6 witness for this.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just want a clarification.
9 Will we be allowed to meet with the witness once again before he leaves
10 The Hague in order to thank him and to wish him goodbye? Of course, we
11 are not going to speak about anything on the record. That instruction is
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution has absolutely no objection to the
15 Defence saying something to the witness afterwards, and I think the
16 instructions have been clear and counsel will abide by them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As long as you abide by and as long as the
18 witness abides by the instruction that it's just a farewell greeting
19 rather than anything related to the testimony of the witness or the
20 materials which the Chamber made efforts to make available to the
22 Having said this, perhaps it would be best to take the break now
23 before we would invite the Defence to call its next witness and resume at
24 a quarter past 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.55 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
3 the courtroom.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Gvozden.
6 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
8 make a solemn declaration. May I invite you to make that declaration.
9 WITNESS: BOSKO GVOZDEN
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gvozden, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.
16 Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Mladic Defence team.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
18 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
20 Q. Good day, General.
21 A. Good day.
22 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
23 A. My name is Bosko Gvozden. I am a general of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska.
25 Q. I would like to start today by asking you about 65 ter number
2 MR. IVETIC: Which I would ask to be called up in e-court. A
3 clean copy of the -- a hard copy of the statement has been given to the
4 usher prior to court. In B/C/S.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. IVETIC: And again, for e-court purposes the 65 ter number is
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just verify whether the witness has received a
9 B/C/S copy or just an English copy, which may not greatly assist him.
10 Mr. Usher, could you please check with the witness whether --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have received a copy in B/C/S.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we can proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. Sir, if we can look at the first page of this document, can you
15 tell us whose signature appears on this page?
16 A. This is my signature, sir.
17 MR. IVETIC: And if we can now turn to page 9 in the Serbian
18 original, page 10 in the English translation.
19 Q. Sir, there is a signature under the witness confirmation section
20 with the date 16 June 2014. Whose signature is that?
21 A. That is my signature.
22 Q. And after signing this statement in June of this year, did you
23 have occasion to read through the same in the Serbian language with me
24 the other day to confirm if everything is correctly recorded therein?
25 A. I had the opportunity to read my statement to confirm that
1 everything in it is accurate.
2 Q. And do you stand by everything that is written in the statement
3 as being accurately recorded?
4 A. I stand by everything that I stated in the statement and it is
5 all accurately recorded in the statement.
6 Q. And, sir, if I were to ask you questions today about the same
7 matters as contained in your written statement, would your answers to
8 those questions be the same in substance as what we find written in your
10 A. I could write a novel in answer to each of the questions, but the
11 gist is given in my answers as they are recorded in the statement.
12 Q. And, sir, today you have taken the solemn declaration to tell the
13 truth. Does that mean that the information as contained in your written
14 statement is truthful?
15 A. It means that I provided truthful information and as such they
16 have been written accurately in my statement and I myself signed the
18 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender the written statement
19 1D1688 into evidence. There are no associated exhibits.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, do you stand by your partly --
21 your -- your objections on certain parts?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. No further argument.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber admits into evidence the statement
24 in its entirety. The Prosecution has relied on events in Croatia in 1991
25 extensively and it is not easy to draw exactly a line where, in the
1 paragraphs 9 to 17, where it is background or where it is responding to
2 elements of the evidence that was adduced by the Prosecution.
3 Therefore, Madam Registrar, the number for the statement in its
4 entirety without redactions would be?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1688 receives number D618,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D618 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have a summary of the
9 evidence in the statement that I'd like to read at this time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
11 MR. IVETIC: The witness, Bosko Gvozden, is a professional
12 military officer who was commander of the communications regiment at
13 Zagreb when the war started. Later he set up the communications regiment
14 of the VRS and the communications system at Han Pijesak. Then he became
15 commander of the Gradiska Light Infantry Brigade. After the war --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gradiska.
17 MR. IVETIC: The Gradiska Light Infantry Brigade. After --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gradisce is in Austria.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, this is just a summary and is not evidence
21 itself. The evidence is found in your statement, so therefore there is
22 no need. This is just to inform the public. There is no need to make
23 any corrections.
24 Please proceed.
25 MR. IVETIC: After the war, he was an assistant to the minister
1 of defence for international military co-operation and head of the
2 international military co-operation administration. He retired from
3 active service in 2004 as a major-general.
4 General Gvozden's statement details in Croatia how the
5 Territorial Defence forces that were supposed to guard his noncombat
6 communications regiment turned their guns on the regiment and blocked and
7 attacked the barracks with the help of Croat paramilitaries. The witness
8 himself spent 60 days imprisoned by these forces. The barracks were
9 subjected to psychological warfare and threat of attack, while the water,
10 electricity, and the communications lines were cut off.
11 Later, as to the VRS, General Gvozden states that the
12 communications system of the VRS was established with only part of the
13 communications equipment that existed at the communications regiment in
14 Sarajevo. Attacks of the Bosnian Muslim forces on the radio relay
15 systems and stations led to personnel being killed and equipment being
17 The witness stated that command communications lines were
18 strictly defined and there were no such lines with Belgrade in any form.
19 Of footage of General Mladic speaking from a phone at the VMA in
20 Belgrade, General Gvozden says at that time General Mladic was only able
21 to use a regular phone, the equivalent of speaking through a megaphone,
22 and it was not possible to perform command tasks over the same.
23 Communications is one thing and commanding another, different lines are
25 As to General Mladic, the witness never heard in person or
1 through the means of commanding, and he had access to encrypted
2 documents, nor did he see any order that would imply liquidation
3 [Realtime transcript read in error "liberation"] of civilians,
4 individuals hors de combat, or mistreatment or torture of captured enemy
5 soldiers. This is best reflected in General Mladic's comportment -- this
6 is best reflected in General Mladic's comportment towards the captured
7 enemy soldiers and in his willingness to do whatever it takes to have our
8 captured soldiers released. It is incompatible with his personality that
9 he could order the killings in Srebrenica.
10 This completes the summary of the witness's statement.
11 I'm told that page 65, line 20, has "liberation" instead of
12 "liquidation." If I misspoke, I apologise. The term should be
14 JUDGE ORIE: This has been corrected now. You've finished your
16 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then if you have any questions for the witness, you
18 may proceed.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
20 Q. General Gvozden, I have a few questions for you. First of all, I
21 would like to look at paragraph 35 of your statement found on page 7 in
22 both languages.
23 A. I see it, yes.
24 Q. When you say here at least a basic encryption method must be in
25 place, what do you mean? What are some of the basic encryption methods?
1 A. When one trains people in the most basic soldierly duties up to
2 the most complex, the highest functions in the army, we would always
3 explain and train people and make sure that everybody knew that in
4 command it is obligatory to encrypt documents that are being used. The
5 only permissible, open conversations that are unencrypted are in the
6 middle of battle, when encryption would cause casualties and defeat; for
7 example, in mechanised and armoured units where unencrypted conversations
8 are permitted in open lines during combat. But it's not otherwise
9 possible to encounter a trained professional soldier who doesn't know
10 this, particularly who, in a dirty war that we went through, would not
11 heed these rules.
12 What we have seen, what I have managed to see in this footage,
13 where --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm going to object.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- unprotected, unsecured
16 conversations can be seen --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was a simple question asking for methods of
19 encryption. He has not even gotten close to answering the question and
20 is just going off.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
22 MR. IVETIC: Am I to respond? Is there an objection to the
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think it is an objection against letting the
25 witness expound on matters which are not asked. I think that's what
1 Mr. McCloskey wants to emphasize.
2 MR. IVETIC:
3 Q. Could you --
4 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Ivetic, do you consider what the witness
5 tells us to be an explanation of basic encryption methods?
6 MR. IVETIC: I asked him to explain what he meant by a basic
7 method of encryption must be in place and to describe encryption methods.
8 I believe he is dealing in part with my question and has now moved on to
9 paragraph 36 which was not yet a part of my --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. IVETIC: -- question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that you indeed asked for an
13 explanation as to "must be in place," and I think the witness is
14 explaining that to some extent. Perhaps next time it would be better not
15 to put two questions in one line but take them one by one, Mr. Ivetic.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 Q. Sir, could tell us what are some of the basic encryption methods
19 that you had in mind?
20 A. I can be quite brief. Other than in direct combat, there are
21 basic encryption methods. They can be manual or machine encryption
22 methods. For the transfer of information between commands, one would use
23 automatic devices that are used for the encryption of total
24 communications between two communication nodes. Then for individual
25 communications, there is manual encryption of a specific document.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to speak more
2 slowly. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please speak more slowly for the
5 Mr. Ivetic.
6 THE WITNESS: Okay.
7 MR. IVETIC:
8 Q. General Gvozden, could you tell us the difference between a line
9 used for communication purposes and one used for command purposes?
10 A. [Interpretation] Command lines are strictly established in all
11 armies of the world, including ours. They follow the existing hierarchy.
12 The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, the commander at the head
13 of the staff, then you would have the subordinate units, the corps, the
14 independent brigades, the regiments, that would be subordinated. That
15 would be the line of command.
16 All other lines have different names, such as co-ordination,
17 reporting, calling in or alerting, different professional things. These
18 communications are key in command duties. We refer to them as command
19 lines, and they are of particular importance, both in the organisational
20 and in the technical sense, and these lines are secured by encryption.
21 So commanders at all levels all the way up to the commander of the
22 Main Staff are obliged to use that system of communications when they are
23 communicating. For just regular communication they can use any system
24 at -- then it was called PTT. Now it's called mobile communications or
1 Q. Sir, in answer to one of my prior questions, you started talking
2 about footage you've seen and I presume you mean the footage referenced
3 in paragraph 36 of your statement. Could you just briefly finish your
4 comments as to the footage that is described in paragraph 36 of your
6 A. I looked at the footage and I saw General Mladic in a relaxed
7 situation, evidently among friends, aware that he was being filmed by a
8 camera. This is perhaps footage that people would want to keep in their
9 personal archive. And it was my conclusion that he allowed himself to be
10 filmed and that he wanted to show how the commander of the Main Staff
11 could communicate with his men. Perhaps he was talking to a colleague
12 who was in the next room. So perhaps it was a little bit of
13 self-promotion because it's a handsome, charming man, women adored him,
14 so perhaps he just used that opportunity.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, rather than hearing the interpretation
16 of this witness on whether he was communicating with someone in the
17 next-door room, if you present paragraph 36, it certainly would assist
18 the Chamber to know what the witness looked at. So as to he has comments
19 on video which is not defined, then we would not know whether it's in
20 evidence or whether -- you understand what I mean?
21 MR. IVETIC: I understand.
22 JUDGE ORIE: To fully understand the testimony.
23 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, it is my understanding that there is
24 one recording of General Mladic at the VMA and it's P --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you -- if it is in evidence. It is in
2 MR. IVETIC: It is in evidence, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Number?
4 MR. IVETIC: P1147, the Srebrenica trial video.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And that is --
6 MR. IVETIC: And it is -- it is --
7 JUDGE ORIE: No. I would have expected this to be identified so
8 that it is on the record as well at what the witness looked at. Not only
9 for us to know that it is this but also it to be clear.
10 Please proceed. We now do understand that witness looked at
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the Srebrenica trial video is a very long
13 trial video. Perhaps you can, now or later, indicate where the witness
14 saw Mr. Mladic in this video.
15 MR. IVETIC: I can. It is the third segment of that group of
16 videos, the video with an identifier number V000-9267-1-A, with the time
17 stamp beginning at 00:49:24 going to 00:51:39.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 MR. IVETIC:
20 Q. If we can look at paragraph 32 of your statement.
21 MR. IVETIC: That is on the previous page in the English and also
22 the Serbian. And it bleeds over into the next page in both. Or at least
23 in the English.
24 Q. Here you say that reserve officers had to replace professional
25 officers at some of the radio relays. What can you tell us about these
1 reserve officers in terms of their training and skills in the field of
2 radio communications?
3 A. To put it most briefly, it was a moment of major changes in the
4 whole unit, in the whole army. Some people were preparing to leave
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina by 19 May 1992, and those who were to stay had to take
6 up their places, the places of those who were leaving. Therefore, there
7 was a shortage of experts in communications, where trained, qualified
8 people are necessary, so we recruited lot of people from the then PTT,
9 now called Telekom. They were great masters in their profession. So we
10 somehow managed to get over this moment of upheaval in the process of
11 establishing the army.
12 Just one more thing. These people were mostly engineers of
13 telecommunications, technicians, people of that kind of profile.
14 Q. And, sir, for both the professional and the reserve officers,
15 could one be assigned to work with the communications equipment without
16 having a prior training and speciality in communications?
17 A. No, no. Recruits were selected and later soldiers and
18 specialists for the units that we later formed, such as the
19 communications regiment, which was the most capable and the best trained,
20 the one catering to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, and
21 they were responsible for the entire communications system in the
22 military and technical sense.
23 Q. Now, sir, for the remainder of this paragraph you highlight some
24 of the main problems; namely, attacks by the Army of BiH on radio relay
25 stations which led to killed personnel and destroyed equipment. How
1 often were such attacks by the enemy forces undertaken on radio relay
2 stations of the VRS?
3 A. Radio relay hubs and separate radio relay stations are the most
4 delicate links in the communications system. Everybody in the profession
5 knows it, and the enemy also knows it. It is the weakest link that needs
6 to be destroyed in order to damage the system of command. It is the same
7 handwriting, so to speak, that I experienced in Croatia. Having survived
8 that, I had experience and I knew what I could expect, so I knew very
9 clearly in Bosnia-Herzegovina which way it would go.
10 However, time was short. The units of the Territorial Defence
11 around the communications hub that were trained and equipped to guard it
12 and the crews who were inside the hubs working on 24-hour shifts could
13 not change the population around them from a hostile to a friendly one.
14 So it was constantly open to abuse. The Muslim population, although not
15 everywhere, just those who were really bent on fighting, attacked the
16 communications centres, trying to destroy the command system and thus
17 undermine the leadership that had already started to work.
18 It was very intense. At one point, even the main communications
19 centre located on Veliki Zep mountain was attacked. It was right next to
20 the Main Staff. They took advantage of a moment when the crew was very
21 busy. They knew the schedule of their work and their roster. And they
22 managed to capture part of the crew at Veliki Zep. We dealt with it
23 later, but the people who were responsible for this attack were not
24 liquidated. They were later exchanged.
25 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to move to paragraph 34 of your
2 MR. IVETIC: On page 7 in both languages.
3 Q. And, sir, there you state in February of 1993 you became
4 commander of a light infantry brigade. Your previous positions were as a
5 communications officer in noncombat formations. Can you explain for us
6 what experience and knowledge you had that allowed you to take over
7 command of a combat unit; namely, the Gradiska Light Infantry Brigade?
8 A. The pronunciation is Gradiska. Gradisce is in Austria.
9 There are at least three reasons why I opted to become a
10 general-type commander and accepted the post of the commander of the
11 light infantry brigade and later Tactical Group 6. First of all, I
12 started my career in the armoured brigade in Banja Luka. First I was
13 communications specialist and then communications commander. There was
14 the competitive spirit. I learned to shoot, to drive, and later at the
15 command I planned drills of the armoured battalion, and I got a feeling
16 for the deployment, disposition of units in battle, and I believe myself
17 capable to take up this job. In terms of education, I finished the
18 two-year staff academy.
19 And a second reason is that the skeleton of the communications
20 regiment was already established, not by me alone but together with
21 others. The bulk of the job had been completed by that time.
22 And the third reason, as the English say, last but not least, I
23 had experience from Croatia which confirmed that the decisions I made in
24 some key moments, decisions in the field of general military command were
25 correct and I had not learned them in theory and I had not had prior
2 Let me mention just my main, principal decision. While I was
3 surrounded at the barracks in Samobor, I received a direction from the
4 then General Staff of the Yugoslav People's Army, that I simply couldn't
5 believe. I couldn't believe my eyes reading the task. The task was to
6 breakout of the encirclement with the forces we had, with what I had in
7 the communications regiment.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, is there any challenge to the witness
9 being fit to take over combat position or any -- his competence in that
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't know, Mr. President. But it's not
12 something I'm interested in.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have now listened for three or four minutes
14 to the reasons why the witness thought that he could accept such a
16 Mr. Ivetic, unless you can explain to us what the relevance of it
17 is, we can move on. There seems to be no challenge to the fitness of
18 this witness to take up such a position.
19 MR. IVETIC: We can move on then, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. I'd like to move to General Mladic whom you discuss at
23 paragraphs 41 and thereafter --
24 A. Just one more thing.
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, please listen to the question that Mr. Ivetic
1 will put to you and answer that question.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. IVETIC:
4 Q. If we can move on to General Mladic whom you discuss at
5 paragraphs 41 and beyond on pages 8 through 9 of your statement, what was
6 General Mladic's reputation amongst yourself and other professional
7 officers stemming from his activities before he assumed command of the
8 Army of Republika Srpska?
9 A. I first heard of the General from the regular reports and the
10 information that circulated in the army, then from my close friend,
11 regrettably now late General Lisica, who was then a colonel, a chief of
12 the armoured units in the Knin corps, whereas General Mladic was the
13 commander of the Knin corps. He was a man I knew very well and whom I
14 believed, and from General Lisica I heard only all the best about
15 General Lisica [as interpreted] who described him as a witty Herzegovina
16 man who was dealing with very difficult problems in those difficult times
17 of war.
18 His fame spread by word of mouth. You know that word of mouth is
19 the greatest medium, stronger than all the mass media. So everybody knew
20 by that time that a new commander has appeared on the scene, somebody to
21 respect as a leader. That was the image I had of General Mladic even
22 before meeting him.
23 Q. Now, General Gvozden, as a lifelong professionally trained
24 military officer, what is your appraisal of General Mladic's orders while
25 commanding the VRS Main Staff from the standpoint of military legitimacy
1 and correctness?
2 A. By the nature of my job, I had access to all the documents sent
3 from the Main Staff to subordinate units, and my duties included
4 monitoring the lines of command into all the directions including written
5 documents. I controlled encryption, et cetera. There is not a single
6 document that I had seen, not even in preparation, nor any official
7 documents, where you could even remotely find anything that deviated from
8 international conventions or the laws governing the army.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock. You have used
10 35 minutes until now of which four or five minutes on a matter where I
11 had to stop the witness because it turned out to be rather irrelevant.
12 Could you please seek to conclude your examination-in-chief.
13 MR. IVETIC: I will, Your Honours.
14 Q. General, what can you tell us in closing as your appraisal of the
15 character and professionalism of General Ratko Mladic?
16 A. I met General Ratko Mladic for the first time when the Main Staff
17 of the VRS was formed in Han Pijesak, the place where the Main Staff had
18 its headquarters. I met him and General Milovanovic who was his deputy,
19 Chief of the Main Staff. What I saw just confirmed what I had heard
20 about that man before, that he was a very witty, quick-spirited man, very
21 friendly, affectionate man, but very, very strict. And I knew based on
22 my experience of combat that that is the primary requirement, the first
23 condition for the mission to be accomplished with the smallest possible
24 losses. I appreciated that quality in him and I was not alone.
25 Everybody appreciated it. His soldiers also had great respect for him
1 because he never set out battles in his own office or in the offices of
2 his subordinate commanders. He was always on the forward line together
3 with the fighting men. That reputation spread even without internet, and
4 the people held him in high esteem for that.
5 Now, when I was preparing to come here to testify, I met with a
6 lot of people who told me, "Please, pass on our greetings to that great
7 man, our general." I can't change the facts.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You're supposed not to enter into any greeting
9 ceremonies, so you've -- anything else you would like to add to your
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that sentence that I
12 did not have time to finish is important for the Court. The one I meant
13 to say, that he -- that I couldn't believe the order that told me I had
14 to break out of the barracks, break out of the encirclement with my own
15 forces. That commander made a decision on the breakout involving huge
16 losses, and nobody was considering it or condemning it; whereas the
17 guilt, the responsibility of the command in those circumstances is great.
18 MR. IVETIC:
19 Q. Since you have mentioned it, I do have to ask now, you have said
20 "that commander" and "the command" that did make a decision on the
21 breakout. What commander are you speaking of?
22 A. I'm talking about the commander of the 28th Division of the
23 so-called BH Army in Srebrenica. I know the commander had run away, but
24 the command or somebody in the command made that decision to breakout and
25 that was a mistake.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop you again.
2 First of all, the witness was interrupted when he dwelled away
3 from the question, and he now says, "I want to add anything," which is
4 not in response to your question.
5 So therefore, Mr. Ivetic, was it your last question? Because we
6 do not need to elaborate on matters the witness raised without being
7 asked about it.
8 MR. IVETIC: That was my last question, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That was your last question. Then thank you very
10 much for that.
11 Mr. Gvozden, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey.
12 You'll find Mr. McCloskey to your right. And Mr. McCloskey is counsel
13 for the Prosecution.
14 Mr. McCloskey.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,
17 Mr. President, I see I have no questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Ivetic, I -- then the questions in
19 cross-examination could not have triggered any need for further
21 MR. IVETIC: That's clear.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But your hope must be with my colleagues and with
24 I have no questions. The Bench has no questions. Therefore --
25 MR. IVETIC: If I could just thank the witness for coming on
1 behalf of the Defence. That's all I wanted -- raised to say.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, not only on behalf of the Defence but as you
3 know --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, thank you too.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I see what I believe is a -- is just a -- is just
7 a translation on paragraph 21 of the statement. And if we could go into
8 private session briefly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
10 We need the witness for it, Mr. McCloskey?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: It --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Most likely, yes.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Very possibly, but I doubt it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's then --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It -- you'll -- it might --
16 JUDGE ORIE: One -- one second.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 25246 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
17 We should have turned into open session earlier because the very
18 short issue raised in private session was followed, and that should have
19 been in open session, by establishing that the evidence of the witness,
20 the examination, had been concluded. The Chamber has thanked the witness
21 for coming to The Hague and wished him a safe return home, and we are now
22 at a point to adjourn for the day.
23 Is the Defence tomorrow ready to call its next witness? Yes.
24 Then we adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
25 4th of September, in this same courtroom, II, at 9.30 in the morning.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day
3 of September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.