Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25413

 1                           Tuesday, 9 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             There are no urgent preliminary matters.  Therefore, could the

12     witness be escorted into the courtroom.

13             I meanwhile use --

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The situation which I described yesterday, the

16     15 bis, is still valid and therefore we'll sit again today with two

17     Judges on the basis of the same considerations as I expressed yesterday.

18             We can deal, perhaps, already briefly with a -- one matter.  That

19     is, that the map P02952, that the Chamber had asked the Prosecution to

20     upload a version to better show the parts -- part of the map related to

21     the testimony of Mr. Bukva.  The Chamber understands that the Prosecution

22     has uploaded into e-court this version of the map under Rule 65 ter

23     08282C and that the Prosecution intends to tender it.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

Page 25414

 1             MS. BIBLES:  That's accurate, Your Honour.  Apparently there is

 2     also a brief translation --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  -- issue with respect to that and we'll get back to

 5     the Chamber on that issue as soon as we can consult with the Defence.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll wait for that translation.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Lukic.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Morning.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I would like to remind you that you are

10     still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the

11     beginning of your testimony, and Mr. Traldi will now continue his

12     cross-examination.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Good morning, Mr. President.

14                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR LUKIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.

18        A.   Good morning.

19             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, just before I start, Mr. Lukic,

20     and I suppose for the record I should say that I mean Mr. Mladic's

21     counsel, and I have spoken about the associated exhibits.  I will be

22     using a number of them today.  As Defence requests to tender those

23     exhibits are pending, with the exception of two long assembly sessions

24     from which we will agree on excerpts, we suggest jointly that they be

25     assigned D numbers when they are used during the cross-examination if the

Page 25415

 1     Chamber is agreeable.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood and the Chamber agrees.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And with that, sir, yesterday at transcript page 25.410 you

 6     testified regarding UNPROFOR that:

 7             "We were in the same building, one room next to the other."

 8             During the time you were there, the 1st of July to the 19th of

 9     December 1992, you lived and worked in the PTT building; correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   You had your own offices where you slept.

12        A.   There was one room.

13        Q.   You also said yesterday that you received protests about shelling

14     in Sarajevo from UNPROFOR personnel.  Did you relay though protests to

15     the Republika Srpska presidency as part of your reporting to them?

16        A.   No, that was not standard practice.  There was lot of it.

17        Q.   So you had no authority to investigate these matters.  Did you

18     pass them on to anyone with authority to investigate?

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I had all authority.  I did not require any piece

20     of paper other than Mr. Karadzic's decision.  For example,

21     General Morillon asked that I give my consent for ten physicians to leave

22     Sarajevo.  I provided it to him, given the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm going to stop you there.  There seems to be some

24     confusion.

25             Mr. Traldi did put it to you, and apparently on the basis of your

Page 25416

 1     testimony yesterday, that you had no authority to investigate any

 2     shelling incident that was reported to you.  That is what the question is

 3     about.  Could you please focus on his question that was that you received

 4     protests, whether you passed those on to anyone else where you had no

 5     authority to investigate it than yourself.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the Prosecutor

 7     to bear in mind that I'm an engineer by profession.  I know what the term

 8     "investigation" entails.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But your answer has shown that you are talking

10     about different things.  Therefore, I kindly ask you to answer that

11     question, whether you passed on these protests which you had no authority

12     to investigate yourself, whether you passed them on to anyone else.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I refuse to accept the conclusion

14     that it was an investigation.  All protests received by both sides I

15     forwarded to UNPROFOR orally and to the officials senior to me when I met

16     with them.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   When you received protests from UNPROFOR or from the other side,

19     did you relay them to more senior officials in the Bosnian Serb

20     government?

21        A.   Many were received by them as well, and others I conveyed to

22     those senior to me at the first opportunity.

23        Q.   And to whom senior to you did you convey them?

24        A.   Well, this they were members -- I apologise.  Members of the

25     presidency, Biljana Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Karadzic at times, and so

Page 25417

 1     on and so forth.  Sometimes messages were sent as well.

 2        Q.   Then you left Sarajevo when you became prime minister; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you were based in Pale throughout 1993 and 1994; right?

 5        A.   For the most part.

 6        Q.   And I'm going to turn now to your time as prime minister.  The

 7     prime minister had the legal responsibility to appoint a number of

 8     government officials; correct?

 9        A.   Certainly.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 16715 be brought to the screen.  These

11     are the minutes of the 66th Session of the RS government dated the 20th

12     of March 1993.  And now that they're up, in fact, if we could please have

13     item 45 on page 12 in English and 17 on the B/C/S.

14        Q.   And you see there already, sir, in the middle of the page a

15     reference to the appointment of members of your government's personnel

16     commission; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we see four names and then a representative of the SDS Main

19     Board.  Now, the four names we see include your vice-president and other

20     members of -- other directors of ministry in your government; correct?

21        A.   There are two deputy prime ministers.  I can't read the third

22     name.

23        Q.   Miroslav Toholj.

24        A.   So two deputy prime ministers or deputy presidents and one

25     minister.

Page 25418

 1        Q.   And Mr. Adzic was also a minister; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.  I didn't get that far on the list.

 3        Q.   So two deputy prime ministers, two ministers, and a

 4     representative of the SDS Main Board.  The SDS is the only political

 5     party we see granted representation; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Now can 65 ter 16716 be brought to our screens.

 8        Q.   And this will be a letter from the Executive Board of the SDS to

 9     you dated a couple of weeks later, the 12th of April 1993.

10             So taking you first to item 2, we read:

11             "In the National Assembly we have 7 out of 8 seats.  Your

12     Government has been voted for and elected by the Deputies of the Serbian

13     Democratic Party.  You ought to be the Government of the Serbian

14     Democratic Party and you are the Executive Authority of the Assembly with

15     the majority of seats of the Serbian Democratic Party, you implement the

16     policy of that party."

17             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 2 in both the English and the B/C/S.

18        Q.   And directing your attention to point 4, we read, specifically as

19     to personnel:

20             "As the party in power, we conduct the personnel policy, and

21     without the Personnel Commission of the Party on all levels, from the

22     municipality to the Republic, no appointments will be possible without

23     our approval.  The way that the Government used to appoint the managers

24     of public companies and make other appointments without the approval of

25     the Assembly, was the usurpation of the former Government."

Page 25419

 1             Now, do you see that text?

 2        A.   I'm familiar with it.

 3        Q.   And the former government referred to there is the Prime

 4     Minister's Djeric's government; right?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And could 65 ter 07341 be brought to our screens.

 7     These are the minutes of the of 68th Session of the Republika Srpska

 8     government held about ten days later.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, the name of the former prime minister

10     is not recorded properly.  Can you repeat that?

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Is Mr. Djeric's last name, is that D-j-e-r-i-c?

13        A.   Branko Djeric.

14        Q.   Thank you, sir.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Now as this comes up, if we could turn to item 36 on

16     page 4 in the English and 13 in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   And here we read:

18             "The discussion and the decision on the proposed personnel were

19     adjourned.  It was concluded that the Government Personnel Commission

20     will hold consultations with the SDS organs, about the proposed

21     candidates, and after that prepare the proposals for the Government."

22             Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with it.

24        Q.   So in these minutes your government is agreeing to consult with

25     the SDS on appointments; correct?

Page 25420

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   And without going into specific examples, that did happen, didn't

 3     it?  The government did consult with the SDS in advance before appointing

 4     personnel in government positions as well as enterprise position, public

 5     companies?

 6        A.   First and foremost, those needed to be agreed with

 7     President Karadzic.

 8        Q.   As well as with representatives of the SDS; right?

 9        A.   Yes, of course.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I would ask that 65 ter 16715 and

11     07341 be admitted as Defence exhibits because the request to tender them

12     as associated exhibits is pending.  I understand they've been tendered

13     publicly and I don't see any reason that they need to be placed under

14     seal.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Are these the full -- the full minutes or?

16             MR. TRALDI:  I believe so.  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we then have them marked for

18     identification, then you could further consider, perhaps together with

19     Mr. Ivetic, whether we need all of it.  And there is always a possibility

20     at a later stage to add portions of it so as to avoid that we have a

21     lengthy, lengthy document which we would have to go through without the

22     parties even knowing what may catch our eyes.

23             Mr. Registrar, could you mark for identification --

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the two numbers.

Page 25421

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 16715 will be MFI D629 [Realtime

 2     transcript read in error "D627"], and 65 ter number 07341 will MFI D630.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  They are marked for identification.  The

 4     Chamber is looking forward to a joint proposal what are the most relevant

 5     portions.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it would be helpful if Mr. Registrar

 7     would repeat the 65 ter number.  It's not recorded.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 07341 will be MFI D630, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  I'm just thinking about 627 and

11     then the next one, 630, but there may be an explanation for that.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd also tender as a Prosecution

13     exhibit the other -- the letter I used which was not an associated

14     exhibit and is very brief.  That's 65 ter 16716.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.  That would be number.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6729, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is something wrong with the D627

18     number.  It should be D629 because yesterday we --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, could you please look at page 9, line

20     4, where it reads that 65 ter 16715 will be MFI'd as D and then what

21     number.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D629, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what caught my eye before.  This being

24     corrected, Mr. Traldi, you -- no, let me just see.  One second, please.

25     Yes, P6729 is admitted into evidence.

Page 25422

 1             You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             Can 65 ter 02382 be brought to our screens.  And this is the

 4     transcript of the 34th Session of the RS Assembly.  And if we could have

 5     page 168 in the English and 178 in the B/C/S, please.

 6        Q.   Now at the --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  We had, I think, the correct page in the English --

 8     or, I'm sorry, in the B/C/S a moment ago -- but we seem -- we may have

 9     lost it.  I think that's the one now.

10        Q.   So when we see you speaking at the top of the page in B/C/S and

11     in the middle of the page in English, you say:

12             "We have several objections that the propositions of certain

13     municipalities, parties, and companies are being withheld for a long

14     time.  However, I can say that the government is not keeping any acts,

15     but is sending them to the party ..."

16             By "the party" you meant the SDS; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   "... from the moment the party started working and immediately

19     after they come from the party, they are being sent to the first

20     Government session to come.  I really do not know why certain proposals

21     did not pass through."

22             Those are your words; right?

23        A.   That is possible.

24        Q.   And you're explaining that there are delays in certain

25     appointments because of delays in getting approval from the SDS; right?

Page 25423

 1        A.   That was the case for the most part, but there were other reasons

 2     as well due to the war.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And I --

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, a portion of this session is already

 6     P2508 and Mr. Lukic, Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Ivetic, and I perhaps will all

 7     speak and agree on additional portions to be admitted.  There are some

 8     others that are identified in the witness's statement as well.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That means that we don't have to reserve a

10     number at this moment, that at this moment there is nothing specifically

11     to be done but that soon you'll upload a new version which relevant

12     portions, both of previous testimonies, and now to be added new portions.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear and hereby on the record.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Now, I want to turn, briefly now, sir, to some events from early

18     in your time as prime minister?

19             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have, please, 65 ter 02538.

20        Q.   These are the minutes of the 61st Session of the government dated

21     21st of December 1992.  And as they come up, this was the session at

22     which the duties of prime minister were handed over to you; correct?

23        A.   Most likely.

24        Q.   Now in paragraph 19 of your statement, you say that at this

25     session, you insisted that stolen property should be returned to its

Page 25424

 1     rightful owners.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 4 in both the English and

 3     the B/C/S.  And in the English, I'm looking at the third paragraph from

 4     the bottom.

 5        Q.   And here we have your actual words, and you say that government

 6     bodies should consistently apply regulations regarding war booty and

 7     properties that were not attend in a legal way.  And then you say:

 8             "All measures should be taken in order to return illegally

 9     obtained properties to their original owners, i.e., to government bodies,

10     if ownership couldn't be proven."

11             So if ownership couldn't be proven, illegally obtained property

12     was to be provided to the government; right?

13        A.   To the state.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 16715.

15     These are the minutes of the 66th Session of the RS Government.  And I

16     believe this has already been assigned a D number MFI 629, I think.  Now

17     if we could have page 3 in the English and 5 in the B/C/S.

18        Q.   At the bottom, we'll see item 2 dealing with the financial status

19     of the VRS.  And at the end of the page in English, we see --

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'm not sure we have the right B/C/S text

21     highlighted.  Can we zoom back out?  And we're looking for what would be

22     "ad 2," so maybe -- so beginning at the bottom of this page.  So

23     beginning at the bottom of the page in both languages.  And I apologise.

24     But if we could turn to the next now in both languages and looked at

25     subpoint 4.  We'll need one more page in the B/C/S.

Page 25425

 1        Q.   We read:

 2             "Place all war booty, from material assets to money and foreign

 3     currency considered socially-owned property, under the control of the

 4     state.

 5             "Material assets and money seized from war profiteers and money

 6     earned in unlawful and illegal ways is to be placed under the control of

 7     the state and used for the defence of the Republic."

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And Dr. Lukic, these minutes reflect the efforts of your

11     government to collect unlawfully obtained money and property and use it

12     to finance the army; right?

13        A.   Not only the army.  Most often refugees, many others, the

14     wounded, the sick.

15        Q.   Well, I'm asking what these minutes reflect.  Not about your

16     policy more generally.  What these minutes reflect is using this

17     unlawfully obtained funds for the defence of the republic; right?

18        A.   When it says "for the defence of the republic," it does not mean

19     only the army.  The army was not the only one that was defending the

20     republic.  The categories that I referred to were in a particularly

21     difficult situation, so I am telling you what were all the things that

22     were done and why these things were done.

23        Q.   Now this discussion takes place in the context of an agenda item

24     related to the financing of the VRS, doesn't it?

25        A.   Meaning the Army of Republika Srpska?

Page 25426

 1        Q.   Yes, that's what I mean by VRS.

 2        A.   Then could you please put a direct question to me to which I can

 3     give you a direct answer.

 4        Q.   Sure.  My direct question is:  This discussion of what to do with

 5     illegally obtained property that we see here in these minutes took place

 6     in the context of an agenda item at a government meeting about the

 7     financing of the VRS; didn't it?

 8        A.   Partially of the army.  But since I see that you're stepping

 9     around the army, I need to tell you the following:  The Army of Republika

10     Srpska was financed from all possible sources, and you need to know that

11     we exported electricity to Serbia and Croatia and that we were

12     compensated for that.  We exported timber, coal, and we even sold -- or,

13     actually, we maintained and repaired aircraft engines for British and

14     some Arab clients, some Arab countries as well.  So --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, that all may be true.  The question of

16     Mr. Traldi is whether this discussion was under the heading of financing

17     problems in the Army of Republika Srpska.  So apart from what other

18     financial issues there may have been, but whether this discussion, he

19     just referred to, whether that was part of an agenda item about financing

20     problems of the army.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the general problems of

22     financing were discussed.  Among those topics was also the topic of the

23     army.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Can --

Page 25427

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Agenda item 2, I'll read it for you, is:

 2             "Reports on the financing problems in the Army of Republika

 3     Srpska."

 4             Those are the specifically focusing on the financing problems of

 5     the army.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were never entirely able to deal

 7     with the financing of the army without including everything that I have

 8     said previously.  Regardless of whether this was discussed at that

 9     meeting or not, this is something that I know very well.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But Mr. Traldi focuses on this meeting and

11     he'll now continue.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And that completes my questions about this meeting.

14     I believe the previous document, 65 ter 02538, is also an associated

15     exhibit and should get a D number at this time.  It's a relatively brief

16     document and I'd suggest that it be admitted in its entirety.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D631, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D631 is admitted.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   To close this topic, sir, in the Karadzic case when you were

22     shown this document, you testified in the pertinent part --

23             MR. TRALDI:  And the reference is 65 ter 31218, page 30,

24     transcript page 38.770 of the Karadzic trial.

25        Q.   -- that:

Page 25428

 1             "We tried that all the items considered to be war booty be placed

 2     at the disposal of the general public good, especially for the defence of

 3     the country, the army, et cetera."

 4             Do you stand by that testimony today?

 5        A.   That is absolutely correct.  But it was not just of the army.

 6        Q.   Then I'll turn --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, it's good practice in this courtroom

 8     that if you quote from a previous testimony that you'd show it on the

 9     screen.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Mr. President.

11             Can we call up then 65 ter 31218, page 30.  And we'll zoom in on

12     lines 18 to 20.

13             And so I'm not sure if Your Honours wish me to repeat the

14     question --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

16             MR. TRALDI:  -- but this is the question that I read out.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but it just allows us, for example, to read the

18     text to the question that the witness at that time responded.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Sir, one more question on the topic of financing of the army.

22     You mentioned that the government sought it from a number of different

23     sources, and you specified Serbia.  One of your roles was to meet with

24     representatives of Serbia and of Montenegro to procure assistance for the

25     Republika Srpska including for the VRS; right?

Page 25429

 1        A.   I would like to ask you about VRS.  You could say the Army of

 2     Republika Srpska.  Well, no.  I discussed many topics with them.  Most

 3     frequently the topic of refugees and then, of course, certain forms of

 4     assistance.  Of course they were asking certain materials from us in

 5     return and so on and so forth.  You probably cannot assume that we in

 6     Republika Srpska after the Croats and Muslims left the JNA, we had more

 7     pieces of weaponry than the number of the population.  We sold part of

 8     that weaponry, even to SerbiaSerbia would buy from us

 9     semi-manufactures.

10        Q.   Sir, I take it your answer to my question, whether you met with

11     representatives of Serbia and Montenegro to procure assistance for the

12     Republika Srpska including for the VRS, is, yes, you did; right?

13        A.   Partially, yes.  But mostly it was not like that overall because

14     we spoke about wheat, about harvesting, about the exports of our products

15     to Serbia, and, of course, about certain articles that we needed.

16        Q.   Turning to a different topic.  In paragraph 56 of your statement,

17     you say that Muslims in Cerska and Srebrenica in the early part of 1993

18     presented what you call a false picture, that they had nothing to eat and

19     no water.  Now, you didn't go to Srebrenica yourself during your time as

20     prime minister, did you?

21        A.   There seems to be a mix-up here.  This was an intercepted

22     conversation in which I discussed Cerska with Dr. Karadzic where they

23     were saying people there were dieing of hunger.  Would you please allow

24     me --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I only allow you to continue to speak if you seek to

Page 25430

 1     answer the question.  The simple question was whether you went to

 2     Srebrenica yourself during your time as prime minister.  All the rest is

 3     what you think may be on the mind of Mr. Traldi, and apparently you

 4     already anticipate that you need to defend yourself in one way or

 5     another.  But just listen to the question:  Did you go in that period of

 6     time to Srebrenica yourself?  Would you please answer that question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No Serb, including myself, could

 8     even dare to think about entering Srebrenica.  Had we gone in there, we

 9     would have never come out.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   So when you say --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also next time limit your answer to what

13     really is asked.  And that is not whether it was dangerous to go there,

14     it was not whether others went there, but just whether you went there.

15     Would you please focus your answer on the question that is put to you.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   So when you say --

19        A.   I would kindly ask you.  I see that you want to interrupt me.

20     Other than that, you cannot just say whether I was there.  The question

21     should be could I have gone there.  So I must give an answer to that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The question -- first of all, if I think I have

23     to interrupt you, I'm conducting these proceedings.  That's one.

24             Second, you interrupted Mr. Traldi, which you are invited not to

25     do.

Page 25431

 1             Third, you can answer the question whether you went there

 2     irrespective of whether you had an opportunity, because if you have got

 3     no opportunity to go there, the simple answer is, no, I didn't go there.

 4             If Mr. Traldi would like to know why you did not go there, he'll

 5     certainly ask you.  Or in re-examination, perhaps Mr. Lukic will ask you.

 6             Please focus your answer on the questions and refrain from, as a

 7     matter of fact, what is comment rather than an answer to the question.

 8             If there is anything urgent at the end of your testimony which

 9     you think it was unfair that you could not say in answer to the

10     questions, I will give you an opportunity, within certain limits, to add

11     anything at the end of your testimony.  But for now, focus on the

12     questions.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   So, sir, when you say in paragraph 56 of your statement that

16     Muslims in Cerska and Srebrenica had food and other reserves and

17     presented a false picture that civilians had nothing to eat and no water

18     in the spring of 1993, you have no direct personal knowledge yourself

19     whether what you're saying there is true or not, do you?

20        A.   No, I had the finding of our army regarding Cerska.  And as for

21     Srebrenica, the two associates of Alija Izetbegovic from Srebrenica

22     should be consulted as to what they were writing.

23        Q.   So, again, no personal knowledge yourself as to the condition of

24     Muslim civilians in Srebrenica in March 1993; right?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

Page 25432

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  I somehow -- okay.

 2             It is, actually, wrong presentation of the previous answer.  This

 3     gentleman had personal knowledge about Cerska from the army.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's keep this -- let's cut this short.

 5             Mr. Traldi, if you have, say, personal knowledge, you can

 6     understand that in two ways:  Knowledge based on your personal

 7     observation of the situation.  Another way of understanding personal

 8     knowledge is whether you obtained any information which made you

 9     knowledgeable about the situation even without personal observation.

10     That, apparently, is the issue.

11             And I do understand that it is your question whether this witness

12     made this statement on the base of his personal observation of the

13     situation or whether he had received information which was not based on

14     personal observation.  That, apparently, is the issue you want to raise.

15             Now, by answering the previous question, the witness has more or

16     less answered your question.

17             Because I understood your previous question, Mr. Lukic, that you

18     expressed this opinion on the basis of information you had received from

19     the sources you mentioned and not by personally observing the situation

20     at the spot.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I'd just refer Your Honours to General Tucker's

23     personal observation in this regard in P317.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's argument, Mr. Traldi.  That's not a question.

25             Please proceed.

Page 25433

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   Turning to the exchange commissions.  In paragraphs 33 and 42 of

 3     your statement, you say when the exchange commissions of the Republika

 4     Srpska used the term "civilian prisoners," they were referring to those

 5     who were reasonably suspected of committing crimes.  Is that your

 6     evidence?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 19597.

 9        Q.   Now, this is a document coming from the Republic of Bosnia and

10     Herzegovina's commission for the exchange of POWs dated 10 February 1993.

11             Now, the first paragraph you see refers to girls of Muslim

12     ethnicity who are being detained and abused in a brothel in Miljevina.

13     Do you see that?

14        A.   I do, yes.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Now, if we could turn to page 5 in the English and 4

16     in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Now we see President Izetbegovic is pardoning a convicted person

18     named Nikola Ostojic.  Do you see that as well?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to the next page, page 6 in the

21     English and 5 in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   Now, there are two exchanges on this page and I'm interested in

23     the second one.  And we see Mr. Ostojic is being exchanged for a number

24     of people, mostly women.  Do you see that?

25        A.   I do.

Page 25434

 1        Q.   So in this instance, the only one of the people be exchanged who

 2     is suspected of a crime is a Serb who was being held in a Bosnian prison;

 3     right?

 4        A.   I cannot say anything about this because I don't know anything

 5     about it.  Many exchanges were not effected through the government and

 6     the government did not know about everything.  I really did want to

 7     understand this particular one, but I cannot.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'll ask that this be marked for

 9     identification.  And I'm -- we'll have occasion to see it again.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P6730 [Realtime transcript read

12     in error "P6713"].

13             JUDGE ORIE:  This was also on the Defence list?

14             MR. TRALDI:  No, it wasn't, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore a P number will have to be assigned to

16     this document, marking it for identification.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And I think I might have heard P6730 rather than

18     6713.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.  I read the transcript.  It

20     should be MFI 6730.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore P6730 is marked for identification.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Now can we have P3808.  And this is a document

24     coming from the Republika Srpska exchange commission in October 1994.

25        Q.   As it comes up, this document will come from Captain Bulajic.

Page 25435

 1     You'd appointed him president of the exchange commission; right?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3        Q.   Now -- and looking to the first paragraph, he writes -- and just

 4     to note, do you see the "Republika Srpska Central Commission for the

 5     Exchange of Prisoners and Civilians" identified at the top of the page?

 6     I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the

 7     transcript.

 8        A.   Yes, I see it.  Yes.

 9        Q.   So he writes:

10             "Since the beginning of the combat activities in the former

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, along with its basic purpose, Butmir KP Dom has also

12     been used as a location for the accommodation of Muslim civilians passing

13     through this facility in transit to the Muslim part of the Sarajevo.

14     This facility was used for this purpose because there are no better

15     conditions, in the area, for Muslim civilians who have been in the

16     process of," and he puts these next two terms in quotes, "'family

17     reunification' or 'freedom of movement', been passing through this part

18     of Republika Srpska on the way to their final destinations in the Muslim

19     part of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina or further on."

20             Now, I'd put to you that Mr. Bulajic is clearly referring to

21     civilians not discussing whether they are suspected of crimes, just

22     referring to regular civilians; that's right, isn't it?

23        A.   I cannot speak about exceptions, but as a rule, all those who

24     were placed in prison did have some reason for being put there, some

25     failing, some errors.  I do not exclude the possibility, however, that

Page 25436

 1     some of them were innocent and who knows why they were put there.  But

 2     the rule was that civilians were kept separate from the prisoners, and

 3     then prisoners, army prisoners, were also kept separate.

 4        Q.   Just looking at the next sentence, he writes:

 5             "According to rough estimates, about 10.000 Muslim civilians (of

 6     all ages) passed through this facility during the war ..."

 7             So we're discussing just Butmir KP Dom.  It's your evidence that

 8     all 10.000 of those would have some failing or some error that led to

 9     them being incarcerated?

10        A.   I didn't speak about 10.000, but I doubt that figure of 10.000.

11     So that's why I'm reluctant to say anything about it.  I mean, can you

12     imagine the number of 10.000 passing through a small prison?  I happen to

13     know that it's a small building.  I'd never been inside, though.  But I

14     don't believe that it was actually the figure of 10.000.

15             You need to be aware that during the war many officers, senior

16     figures, wanted to exaggerate a little bit than it actually was talking

17     about the living, the dead, the captured, the wounded, and so probably

18     that would apply also in this case with the prison.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Now if we could just have P4008, briefly.  As it

20     comes up, this is an order from General Tolimir issued the 3rd of October

21     1994.  And I'll be looking at the end of paragraph 3.

22        Q.   And he writes here:  "It should be kept in mind that in the

23     exchanges, we receive captured soldiers of the Republika Srpska while we

24     mostly given them civilians."

25             Now, he isn't referring to people suspected of crimes either.

Page 25437

 1     He's just referring to civilians; right?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's at the end of paragraph 4.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.  There is -- yes, you're correct, Your

 4     Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see it, Mr. Lukic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it now.  I do not recall

 7     it at all.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait for the question, please.  We are just ensure

 9     that you have read the relevant portion where Mr. Traldi referred you to

10     the wrong paragraph.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:  And I apologise again.

13        Q.   So he, too, is referring just to civilians, not to people

14     suspected of crimes; right?

15             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I think the whole document should be read because

18     otherwise the gentleman is misled.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  If --

20             MR. LUKIC:  -- if we start from the paragraph 1.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, any problem in allowing the witness -

22     it's time for a break, anyhow - be given a hard copy so that he can read

23     the whole of the document.

24             MR. TRALDI:  No objection at all, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that a hard copy be made of this

Page 25438

 1     document.

 2             Mr. Lukic, if you would be so kind to read during the break the

 3     whole of this document so as to avoid any confusion, and we'd like to see

 4     you back after the break.  The hard copy will be provided to you after

 5     you've left the courtroom.

 6             It's even provided while you're still in the courtroom.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at 5 minutes to

 9     11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

13     the courtroom.

14             MR. TRALDI:  If I might use the time briefly, Mr. President.

15     We've received the English translation for P6728 which was MFI'd

16     yesterday.  The translation's been uploaded into e-court under doc ID

17     B0159686ET.  And if the Defence agrees, we'd request that the court

18     officer be instructed to attach the translation to the original and that

19     the MFI status be removed and the document be admitted.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think was it with this -- yes,

21     Mr. Lukic.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             MR. LUKIC:  We have no objections.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

25             Then the Registrar is hereby instructed to attach the English

Page 25439

 1     translation to P06728.  After this has been done, P6728 is admitted into

 2     evidence.

 3             And, Mr. Lukic, as always, you have an opportunity if there is

 4     any problem with the translation to -- to report this within 48 hours.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P4008 back up.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's still on the screen.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Oh, there it is.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, I understand you reviewed this document over the break.

10     Having reviewed the document --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- I'd put to you, again, that General Tolimir is referring when

13     he says in the fourth paragraph:

14             "... in the exchanges, we receive captured soldiers of the

15     Republika Srpska while we mostly give them civilians."

16             I'd put to you again that he is not referring to people suspected

17     of crimes, just to regular civilians.  That's true, isn't it?

18        A.   First of all, tell me what period this refers to?  Is the date I

19     find at the bottom the 4th of October, 1994, correct?  I see a similar

20     date at the top, but that I'm uncertain.  I can't see it all too well.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I don't understand that there is any dispute between

22     the parties that this is a document from October 1994.

23        Q.   So, yes, early October 1994 is the date.

24        A.   First of all, I was no longer prime minister at the time.  I do

25     have other objections vis-à-vis this document.

Page 25440

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you are supposed to answer questions, Mr. Lukic.

 2     If there is any challenge to the authenticity and lack of signatures, et

 3     cetera, that's left in the hands of the parties.

 4             Mr. Traldi, could you please --

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Just to put --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- continue.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   -- one more time for the clarity of the record, I'd put to you

 9     again he is not referring to people suspected of crimes.  He is referring

10     to regular civilians.  That's right, isn't it?

11             MR. LUKIC:  I would object --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC:  -- to the questions.  What General Talic was thinking

14     is not to ask this gentleman.  And from the military perspective, any

15     civilian incarcerated is civilian.  So it doesn't mean -- it just means

16     that they are actually suspected of crimes.  So --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you would say --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Could --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- there is no dispute.

20             MR. LUKIC:  This calls for speculation of the witness, Your

21     Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there are two elements.  First of all, that if

23     the witness with his knowledge gained in his previous position as prime

24     minister would have any further explanation for the language used here

25     that he has been given an opportunity to do so.  That's one.  Second is I

Page 25441

 1     do establish that apparently there is no dispute between the parties that

 2     the reference to civilians here means civilians without any reason to

 3     believe that they would have -- suspected of having committed any crimes.

 4             Is that well understood, Mr. Lukic?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, the commission, the name of the

 6     commission I will read it in B/C/S so you get proper translation.  I

 7     don't have English document here.  It says, I quote:  [Interpretation]:

 8     The Central Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners and Civilians.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is how it is translated.  Let's -- I think

10     we are now entering the argument.

11             I do establish that the reference to civilians here is not

12     civilians suspected of any criminal the activities or did I misunderstand

13     you, Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  If we read the document, we see that those civilians

15     were transferred from prisons to one prison at one place.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It's the last paragraph.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One --

19             MR. LUKIC:  If you can read the last paragraph of this document.

20     I'll --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll read, one second.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  If you invite us to do so we'll

24     certainly do it.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I --

Page 25442

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we move to the next page in English.

 2             And, Mr. Lukic, you used the name of General Talic but this is

 3     signed by General Tolimir, just for the record.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I might ask --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  -- if the witness could be asked to remove his

 7     headphones --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  -- and perhaps I should have done that before.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I noticed that the witness understands the

11     English language, Mr. Traldi.

12             You understand English, don't you?  You do understand the English

13     language?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I earlier heard you speak to the usher where you

16     used the word "translation."  You remember?  At the very start this

17     morning.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you don't -- if you don't --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But my knowledge is very modest.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you should have told me that you have a

22     modest knowledge of the English language and you should not have said to

23     me that you don't understand the English language.  Is that clear?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yet, I do not understand it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will take its time to read this document

Page 25443

 1     now in its entirety and then you can continue after that, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Then I'll turn to a different topic now.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you'd prefer that we read it during our next

 4     break, we'll do so.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  And, actually, Your Honours, I -- I'd fulfilled what

 7     I considered putting my case to the witness about the exchange

 8     commissions and wouldn't have further questions about this document

 9     unless --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

11             MR. TRALDI:  -- Mr. Lukic wants to go back to it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But then we already read it anyhow but for different

13     purposes.

14             At least, and let's have a look, this is already in evidence.

15             MR. TRALDI:  It is --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so therefore --

17             MR. TRALDI:  -- Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Now, sir, I want to ask you now about some negotiations that you

21     took part in early in your time as prime minister.  You took part in

22     negotiations with the Republic of Herceg-Bosna; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Now, you mention in paragraph 70 of your statement that a peace

25     agreement with the Croats was signed.  When was that?

Page 25444

 1        A.   In any case, it was around mid-1993.

 2        Q.   And before that and shortly after you became prime minister, you

 3     were part of the Republika Srpska delegation to the talks in Geneva;

 4     right?  I'm speaking of the beginning of 1993.

 5        A.   No, I did not go to Geneva.

 6        Q.   Now, perhaps then you can help me understand.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have P357.  This will be one of

 8     General Mladic's notebooks.  Page 53 in English and 55 in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   So this is 11 January and we see "a meeting of conference

10     presidents and our delegation."

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is the B/C/S page the right one?

12             MR. TRALDI:  Clearly not.  Could we turn back a page, please.

13     And one more.  I'm sorry, I'd given page number for the B/C/S original

14     rather than for the transcript and it's led to some confusion, and that's

15     my error.

16             Can we go back one more page.  I say this is -- we're seeing the

17     numbers of the speakers of the meeting here.  Okay.  So now we've reached

18     the right page, "Meeting of Conference Presidents and our delegation."

19             And if we could just turn now to page 55 in the English and the

20     B/C/S.  And could we go back to 54 in the B/C/S, please.

21        Q.   So we see a Professor Lukic in the middle of the page explaining

22     the reasons for objecting to a number of points.  Now, does that refer to

23     you or to a different Professor Lukic?

24        A.   I don't know what meeting this refers to.  There were two

25     Professor Lukics.  The other Professor Lukic was a legal expert.  I don't

Page 25445

 1     know which one this refers to.

 2        Q.   We'll look into the matter before the next session, and I may

 3     have follow-up questions.  But I'll turn to another topic, then.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 1D02453 be brought to the screen.  And

 5     this will be the programme of Prime Minister Lukic's government as he

 6     presented it to the Republika Srpska Assembly.

 7        Q.   Now, this was an introduction of you and your government

 8     programme to the assembly when you were being confirmed as

 9     prime minister; right?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And this speech explains to the assembly what you intended to do

12     in your role as prime minister; correct?

13        A.   Any programme is like that.

14        Q.   You -- it appears that this is a speech.  Did you deliver it

15     yourself?

16        A.   Yes, as far as I remember.  Perhaps I may have given it to

17     someone else to read it out.

18        Q.   You say that this programme was prepared in advance and that it

19     had Dr. Karadzic's absolute support.  Now, did Mr. Karadzic provide his

20     support to your programme in advance of the speech being given?

21        A.   Many people had the programme, including members of the

22     government.  Some ministers, some deputies.  And, yes, of course I

23     provided it to Mr. Karadzic first before giving it to anyone else.

24        Q.   Now I'd like to look at three particular points in your

25     programme.  Now, first here on page 1 in English and B/C/S in the third

Page 25446

 1     paragraph, we read:

 2             "The most pressing task of the government I am proposing will be

 3     to complete the project of statehood for the Serbian people.  The time is

 4     right for us to be able to protect most successfully and efficiently the

 5     vital interests of our people with the internal strength of the state

 6     which we are building.  This state will be integrated into other Serbian

 7     states as much as possible."

 8             Now, by "other Serbian states," you meant the Republic of Serbian

 9     Krajina and Serbia; correct?

10        A.   Praise God, correct.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Turning now to page 5 in the English and the top of

12     page 4 in the B/C/S.

13        Q.   Below the words "honourable deputies," we see you note:

14             "In the last two years, many Serbian families from Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina, Slovenia and Croatia have been left without their homes and

16     hearths.  This government must immediately take care of their

17     accommodation and permanent settlement.  We already have the space and

18     preconditions to resolve this urgent problem since we have a number of

19     municipalities with very low population density."

20             Now, permanently resettling displaced Serbs in territory under

21     your government's control was part of your programme as you set it out to

22     the assembly; right?

23        A.   That is correct.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Now looking to page 8 in the English and page 6,

25     paragraph 1 in the B/C/S.

Page 25447

 1        Q.   We also see --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And we're at the top of the page in the English.

 3        Q.   "The government will give more support and assistance" --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should make sure that the right B/C/S page is

 5     on the screen.  I doubt that.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we turn back to the previous page.

 7             So my Cyrillic, I'm afraid, is limited.  But --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  My doubt was based on the length of the two

 9     paragraphs above the words "honourable deputies."

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can we turn back to page 6 for a moment in the

11     B/C/S.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps it's the right page.

13             Mr. Lukic agrees.  Thank you.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Now and then, my notes are accurate.

15        Q.   Looking at the top of the page, we read:

16             "The government will give more support and assistance than it has

17     done so far to the research, gathering of documentation and presentation

18     to the world of war crimes that are being committed against the Serbian

19     people.  At the same time, we will also insist on the request that

20     judicial and law enforcement organs carry out preparations and

21     investigations.  Perpetrators of crimes do not deserve to be forgiven."

22             So documenting and investigating crimes against Serbs was also a

23     part of your government's programme; correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Now, I'd put to you that if we review this speech, we will not

Page 25448

 1     see any mention of permanently resettling Muslim and Croat refugees in

 2     the territory of Republika Srpska, will we?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And we will not see any mention of investigating crimes committed

 5     against Muslims or Croats, will we?

 6        A.   No.  Should I explain?

 7        Q.   I think you've answered my question.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  But if the Chamber wishes a further explanation,

 9     I'll leave it in their hands.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you want to give a short explanation, you are

11     invited to do so now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was our position on the basis of

13     conclusions of different commissions that all crimes, no matter who

14     perpetrated them, had to be registered and processed.  We did not divide

15     crimes into Serbian, Muslim, or Croatian crimes, let alone anything else.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   I'm going to follow-up on the topic you've just mentioned.  Now

18     the prosecution and investigation of crimes was often discussed at

19     government sessions; correct?

20        A.   In my view, it was sufficient bearing in mind the circumstances

21     and other problems faced by the government.  The word "often" was used,

22     but it would be difficult to achieve for a government engaged in a war.

23        Q.   Well, I'm going to look at a few examples.

24             MR. TRALDI:  But before I do, this is a relatively brief

25     document.  It's one of those that the Defence has tendered as an

Page 25449

 1     associated exhibit and I'd ask that it be assigned a D number and

 2     admitted.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We have -- one second, please.  You say it's a

 4     relatively -- you are referring to the document we just looked at?

 5             MR. TRALDI:  The one that remains on our screen.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that one.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the number would be.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 1D2453 will be

10     Exhibit D632.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D632 is admitted.

12             Now, I didn't know whether you were talking about a new document

13     or whether it was about the document we just looked at.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Mr. President.

16             Could we have 65 ter 1D02461.

17        Q.   Now, this is the 63rd Session of the Republika Srpska government

18     held on the 5th of February 1993, a few weeks after you announced your

19     programme.

20             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 15 in the B/C/S and 10 in

21     the English.

22        Q.   And direct your attention to point 10.  And we see that:

23             "It was concluded that the Ministry of the Interior and the

24     republican public prosecutor's office gather information on the criminals

25     and crimes committed against the Serbian people and to publish it in the

Page 25450

 1     media."

 2             So my question to you is, again, here, we're seeing a reference

 3     to crimes committed specifically against Serbs; correct?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 07340 [Realtime transcript read in error

 6     "3740"] be brought to the screen.  This is the 71st Session of the

 7     government.  And I believe it's early March 1994.  Could we have page 8

 8     in the B/C/S and 12 in the English.

 9        Q.   And we see at item 20 the government taking notice of a report of

10     the work of the state documentation centre for the investigation of

11     crimes against -- specifically against Serbs; correct?

12        A.   If that is what is in the document, then, yes, in all likelihood.

13        Q.   And in that discussion, it says towards the end of the second

14     item of paragraph 20 that:

15             "It is of special importance to instigate criminal proceedings

16     against individual and group perpetrators of crimes and genocide against

17     the Serbian people.  The media should report these proceedings and give

18     them an appropriate level of publicity both at home and abroad."

19             This is consistent with the platform that you sent out to the

20     assembly; correct?

21        A.   Evidently.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, both of these are associated exhibits

23     and I'd ask that they be given D numbers.  They are minutes and so I

24     wouldn't have an objection to them being marked for identification.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Well -- only I don't know if we have the right

Page 25451

 1     document.  You called for 3740 and said that it's 71st session, so I

 2     think it's --

 3             MR. TRALDI:  It certainly attempted to say 7340.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  So that's why I don't know if we have the right

 5     document on the screen.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  We do.  The transcript simply misrecorded me.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  Okay, sorry.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And I am quite sure that's my fault.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  So --

10             MR. TRALDI:  We have the right document and I've discussed the

11     part that I meant to discuss and it is an associated exhibit.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 1D02461, 63rd session of the

13     Republika Srpska government, receives number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D633 MFI, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D633 is MFI'd.

16             Is there -- is that because we still have to make a selection,

17     Mr. Traldi, that it's --

18             MR. TRALDI:  That's why I was offering.  I'm in your hands as to

19     whether to mark it for identification --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             MR. TRALDI:  -- or admit it.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And again, how many pages is the document?

23             MR. TRALDI:  D2461?  I'm afraid it's not in my notes.  I can say,

24     Mr. Lukic, referring to General Mladic's counsel, and I had discussed

25     making a selection from that document yesterday.

Page 25452

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It's -- in the English it's 23 pages, but we

 2     looked only, I think, at two or three pages including the cover page.

 3     Therefore, it is MFI'd.

 4             The next one is 65 ter 7340 receives number --

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be exhibit D634 MFI, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D634 is MFI'd.  The number of pages is --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I think approximately the same.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you'll -- you'll sit together and you'll inform

 9     the Chamber later whether we need only an excerpt or whether we need the

10     whole of the document.  For the time being, it's MFI'd as D634.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Now in paragraph 40 of your statement you refer to the Republika

14     Srpska government forming a commission to investigate war and other

15     crimes.  I want to look at the genesis of that commission.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 16760.  This is the 67th

17     session of the government held on the 6th of April 1993.  And if we could

18     look at page 5 in both languages, item 2.

19        Q.   Now, it notes that an extensive debate was held regarding the

20     investigation and establishing of crime and genocide against members of

21     the Serb people and refers at the end of that first paragraph to the

22     state documentation centre which has already been set up.  And then

23     refers to setting up an authoritative commission which would exclusively

24     deal with the issue.

25             Do you see that text?  And again, you have to articulate your

Page 25453

 1     answer for the record.

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Now turning to task 3, we see --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Starting on page 7 in the English and 6 on the

 5     B/C/S.  I'll wait for it to come up.

 6        Q.   "It was agreed to set up a Commission which would ..."

 7             MR. TRALDI:  And we'll turn to the next page in both languages.

 8        Q.   That this commission would "prepare a suit on the genocide

 9     committed over members of the Serb people, ensure that the suit was pled

10     before all relevant factors.  The commission would likewise work on

11     preparing a response to the suit for an alleged genocide committed by the

12     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

13             Now, that latter suit was the lawsuit which was brought by the

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at the

15     International Court of Justice; correct?

16        A.   This is our commission that had the task that you referred to

17     earlier.  I don't know why now you are also bringing in Yugoslavia.

18        Q.   Well, we see it mentioned here at this meeting.  So one of the

19     purposes of investigations into war crimes by your government was to

20     prepare to respond to the genocide suit brought against the

21     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia; correct?

22        A.   This is just information, but we did not take any measures to

23     investigate anything that had to do with that.  I don't, at least,

24     remember that being one of our tasks.  We were speaking only about our

25     victims.  We formed our own commission and that was its task.  Everything

Page 25454

 1     else was incidental and not important as far as we were concerned.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, this is another associated exhibit.

 3     I'd ask that it be -- again, I'm in your hands and Mr. Lukic's as to

 4     whether to mark it or admit it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the document would receive number?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D635 MFI'd, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  D635 is MFI'd.  If a selection is further made, it

 8     should include not only the portion you read but the whole of that item

 9     in the, I think it was on page 2 and 3 --

10             MR. TRALDI:  We would have intended to include at the minimum the

11     whole of items 2 and 3.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That should be done at least --

13             MR. TRALDI:  Along with what he referred to in his statement, of

14     course.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we wait for the further information to be

16     provided by the parties.

17             Please proceed, meanwhile, Mr. Traldi.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could the Prosecution have 65 ter 1D02470.  And

19     this is an excerpt from the Gazette.

20        Q.   And this is the publication of the commission establishing that

21     commission; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that it be assigned a D number.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D636, Your Honours.

Page 25455

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D636 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And then I want to look at a document,

 3     65 ter 1D02488.

 4        Q.   And this is a report from your commission from March 1994.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Now, here on the first page in the B/C/S but the

 6     second page on the English ...

 7        Q.   We read:

 8             "On 2 March 1994, the Commission sent its first Work Report to

 9     the Government which said that the Commission had processed the submitted

10     documents and identified 528 Muslims and Croats who had committed war

11     crimes."

12             Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The document then notes reports just below that from various

15     judicial organs, public prosecutors offices and lower courts.  And then

16     it analyses those documents, which I would like to go through quickly.

17     At point A --

18             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 2 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   -- it notes that the Brcko documents identified 759 Muslims and

20     Croats who had allegedly committed crimes.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Now, turning to page 5 in the English and 4 in the

22     B/C/S.  Point B.

23        Q.   It notes that from Zvornik there were reports that allegedly 215

24     Muslims had committed crimes.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 9 in the English, 7 in the B/C/S.

Page 25456

 1        Q.   Point C -- refers to an investigation in Bijeljina into two

 2     Muslims.  And just below that, point D, Vlasenica, investigations into 26

 3     Muslims.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 10 in the English, 8 in the B/C/S.

 5     And there is no point E recorded in the document.  But you can see in the

 6     English in the middle of the page, and in the B/C/S I believe it's also

 7     at the beginning of the long paragraph, a discussion of Trnovo.

 8        Q.   And it refers to a report about 53 Muslims.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And then turning to page 11 in the English and the

10     bottom of page 8 in B/C/S, point F.

11        Q.   Five Muslim suspects in Sarajevo.  Now, I'd put to you that that

12     adds up to reports against more than a thousand Muslim suspects; right?

13        A.   How could I know how many of which persons in the entire report,

14     the report cited by locations, towns, places, how many people were killed

15     in each of those locations?  And it referred to the numbers of Serbs,

16     Muslims, and Croats.

17        Q.   Referred to the number of suspects, didn't it?  Muslims and

18     Croats.  Let's go back and we can look at the examples more slowly.

19             MR. TRALDI:  So let's start on point 2 in both languages.  Sorry,

20     page 2 in both languages, point A.  And let's just zoom in.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   So here, the Brcko public prosecutor's office has sent documents

24     identifying Muslims and Croats who allegedly committed war crimes; right?

25     They are identified specifically as Muslims and Croats.

Page 25457

 1        A.   I'm sorry.  It would be ridiculous for me to take a report such

 2     as it is.  I can take it as correct or not, but I cannot alter it or

 3     speak about it in terms of it being positive or negative.

 4        Q.   I'm not asking you to do that at the moment.  What I'm asking you

 5     to do is confirm that here in the text it refers to the reports as being

 6     specifically against Muslims and Croats.  That's right, isn't it?

 7        A.   I understand it as if you were defending the crimes from the

 8     Muslim and Croat people --

 9        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you.

10        A.   -- and I'm simply in way taking Serbs --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] You are not invited to enter

12     into a debate with Mr. Traldi.  Mr. Traldi puts it to you that at least

13     in this report where a large number of crimes are described, that it is

14     exclusively crimes committed by Croats and Muslims or -- Mr. Traldi?

15             MR. TRALDI:  Just, just -- Your Honour, I apologise for

16     interrupting.  I was putting the sections I had referred to --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. TRALDI:  -- were exclusively Muslims and Croats.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then it would have been fair to the witness

20     that you would have mentioned them all, I think --

21             MR. TRALDI:  I was getting to the next one on the list, Your

22     Honour.  I apologise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So Mr. Traldi puts it to you that a large

24     number, and I think you talked about a thousand approximately --

25             MR. TRALDI:  My mental math says between a thousands and 1100,

Page 25458

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That over a thousand of the cases mentioned in

 3     this report are cases of crimes comitted by Muslims and Croats, whether

 4     you would agree with that or not.  And then he'll follow-up on other

 5     matters in the same report.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's difficult to be in my

 7     place.  I know villages where people were killed.  I know.  I was working

 8     there.  So I really know what it's all about.  So I cannot stand behind

 9     one or the other.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you --

12        A.   Only if anybody is having any doubts, only I would say that this

13     needs to be checked.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the simple question was that the cases

15     referred to by Mr. Traldi amount to over a thousand, and that those

16     exclusively deal with crimes committed by Muslims and Croats.  Whether

17     you have any comment on that -- whether other crimes were committed is

18     perhaps a matter we may look at later or in further -- in re-examination,

19     but we are just at this moment talking about this document.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   So, sir, speaking only of the numbers as they are reflected in

22     the report, I'm not asking you about the truth or falsity of any

23     allegations.  I'd put to you again we've seen reports against more than a

24     thousand suspected Muslim or Croat perpetrators in this report; right?

25        A.   I don't see that as being excessive in view of the fact that I

Page 25459

 1     know of crimes --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.  Next question.  The Chamber is in a

 4     position to verify whether the number you refer to is accurate, yes or

 5     no, and whether it amounts to a thousand or more.  And it's clear that

 6     the witness says that he cannot confirm whether this is truthful

 7     reporting yes or no.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we could go back to page 11 in the English.  And

10     turning to page 9 in the B/C/S.

11        Q.   And here we're going to see a reference to two files regarding

12     crimes committed by Serbs.  And if we look at point A in this section,

13     there's two suspects, Nebojsa Lazic and Boro Radic.  And it says here

14     that Mr. Radic is dead, and at the end of the paragraph that Mr. Lazic is

15     at large.  Is that correct?

16        A.   I don't know, but I believe that it must be so since somebody has

17     written that that was so.

18        Q.   And so point B below that, Stanko Knezevic --

19             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could turn to page 12 in the English.

20        Q.   And it says also at large; right?  Asking only that's what it

21     says in the document.  Right?

22        A.   Since it is written, I assume that it stands.  But I really think

23     that it's impossible, and please believe me, for a president or

24     prime minister to know who was where.

25        Q.   Now the reason I've been asking you about this document is that

Page 25460

 1     in your statement --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have paragraph 85 of the witness's

 3     statement on the screen.  That's D626, for the record.

 4        Q.   In your statement you discuss this document, and you discuss it

 5     under a different number because your statement was taken for the

 6     Karadzic case, and so the Karadzic case number was used.  So it's

 7     paragraph 85 and it refers to it by the Karadzic number 1D7886.  And you

 8     say that this commission that was -- that we just saw a report from, its

 9     task was to gather documentation on events that could be seen as war

10     crimes, and you say at the end of the paragraph:

11             "The commission processed reports of crimes committed by Serbs as

12     well."

13             And so my question is:  When you said that, you meant to refer to

14     two reports of crimes by Serbs of which none of the alleged perpetrators

15     had been arrested; correct?

16        A.   I was not in a position to know whether somebody was arrested or

17     not.  All I was able to do was to use the document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I think that what Mr. Traldi puts to you is

19     that the document says that they are not arrested, at least they are not

20     reported as being arrested.  And one of the suspects having been killed.

21     And you're commenting on a document.  So that's what Mr. Traldi puts to

22     you.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can only believe it.  I don't

24     have any other information.  I didn't gather any other information.

25             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have the document back.  And it's

Page 25461

 1     1D2488.  I'll be asking again for page 11 and -- sorry, page 12 in the

 2     English and 9 in the B/C/S.  And just below the portions we've reviewed.

 3        Q.   Now, we read:

 4             "On 18 March 1994, members of the War Crimes Committee of the

 5     Federal Government of Yugoslavia visited the Republika Srpska Commission

 6     for Gathering Information on Crimes Committed against Humanity and

 7     International Law.  On that occasion it was agreed to make the

 8     documentation gathered by our Commission available to this Committee,

 9     because 'Yugoslavia' (Serbia and Montenegro) was to draft a response to

10     the application filed with the International Court of Justice on 20 March

11     1993 by the so-called Republic of BH."

12             That's the genocide suit that we discussed earlier; correct?

13        A.   Not for genocide but for the participation in the war in Bosnia

14     and Herzegovina.

15             MR. TRALDI:  We'll seek agreement with the Defence on the legal

16     characterisation of the suit rather than pursuing it further.

17             But if we could turn now to the next page in both languages.

18     And -- sorry, one more I'm afraid.  And I'm looking for the

19     struck-through text after the numeral 5.

20        Q.   And this struck-through text refers to an Annex 2, a document on

21     the "Extent of the violations of the human rights of women as a new form

22     of war crime in Croatia and BiH," by Mario Nobilo.  And it refers a few

23     lines below that to a report by Tadeusz Mazowiecki.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And I apologise for my pronunciation of that name to

25     everyone.

Page 25462

 1        Q.   The Special Rapporteur of the commission of human rights.  Do you

 2     see that text?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now it appears that the commission, at least, was aware of and

 5     had reviewed the reports.  Do you know whether that's true?

 6        A.   It probably is.  I can't say it is not.  But I can't say it is,

 7     either.

 8        Q.   And your government was aware of those reports as well; correct?

 9        A.   For the most part I think they were informed, but I doubt they

10     studied the texts in depth.

11        Q.   For the moment without looking in too much depth, you were aware

12     that Mr. Nobilo and Mr. Mazowiecki alleged that large scale crimes had

13     been committed by Serb forces in Bosnia; right?

14        A.   It was standard practice coming from Croatia and the rest of

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Claims were always that no matter what crime was

16     committed, it was committed by Serbs.  However, Nobilo did not mention

17     how many crimes were perpetrated by Croats, and I won't he was touch upon

18     the topic of Muslims.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd request that this document receive

20     a D number.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before we further deal with it, that the red

22     markings and the striking through originate from where?  And perhaps

23     looking at you, Mr. Lukic.

24             Mr. Lukic.  --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers].

Page 25463

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm sorry.  I'm addressing Counsel Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I only can guess.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers].

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it was on your list.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  [Overlapping speakers] it has our ERN number.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  And it was included in the statement.  So --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It's not our marking for sure.  I can assure that

10     it's not our marking.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but if you -- if you intend to have a document

12     admitted as an associated exhibit, if that's how I have to understand it,

13     then at least you should be aware of a document where others have made

14     markings, et cetera, who made them, and for what purpose, and why the

15     striking through is there.  Who made the emphasis by the red squares?

16     I've seen them before.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Before, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. LUKIC:  The Karadzic Defence would usually make those red --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC:  -- squares.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand that that is a way of a type -- a way

23     of drawing the attention to a specific portion.  The striking through,

24     however, is of a different --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Kind.

Page 25464

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Just to supplement that information, I think I can

 4     probably confirm what Mr. Lukic is suggesting the original version of the

 5     document in our system has the strike-through but does not have the red

 6     marking.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That is useful additional information.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D637, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D637 is admitted into evidence.

12             Please proceed -- no, please do not proceed.  That's -- Witness,

13     we'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.  You may

14     follow the usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

20     the courtroom.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bibles.

23             MS. BIBLES:  I could make use of this time.  We do now tender

24     65 ter 08282c with respect to the map that was used during Mr. Bukva's

25     testimony.

Page 25465

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, which was marked -- no, let me see.  Yes, it

 2     needs a new number because it's a special portion of P2952.

 3             Mr. Registrar, the number for 65 ter 08282c would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6731, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution have 65 ter 31239.

 9             Now, we have not received the translation for this yet, but this

10     is a letter dated the 7th of January 1993 from the permanent

11     representative of Croatia to the United Nations, addressed to the

12     Secretary General.

13        Q.   And Mario Nobilo's name appears.  And it refers to the extent of

14     violation of women's human rights and raping as a new type of war crime

15     in Bosnia-Herzegovina as an attachment.  Now, that's the report that

16     before the break you confirmed that the commission and your government

17     were aware of it but might not have studied the text in detail; is that

18     right?

19        A.   I'm certain they did not go into the details.

20        Q.   So I'm just going to ask if some of the allegations in the report

21     were known to you.  And I'm asking -- I'm going to ask specifically

22     whether you knew those things were alleged to have happened.  Can we

23     agree to proceed in that fashion?

24        A.   I know quite a lot about it.  The first thing I know is that the

25     Croats were the ones who committed the first crimes in Bosnia-Herzegovina

Page 25466

 1     at the beginning of the war.

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3        A.   I know that the first women to be raped were the women of

 4     Posavina.

 5        Q.   Sir, I'm going to stop you again.  What I asked was if you would

 6     agree, as we go through the report, that we would simply discuss whether

 7     you were aware of the allegations that were being made there.  Not

 8     whether they were true or false and not about crimes by another side.

 9             So can we proceed simply by discussing whether you were aware

10     that particular things had allegedly happened?

11        A.   In the last war all such things happened on all sides.

12     However --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it was particularly often done

15     by Muslims.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you again.  You are giving sweeping

17     statements about crimes committed by others, whereas you are asked a

18     question:  Whether you were aware of these allegations.  True or not,

19     whether others did even more horrible things, and this Chamber has heard

20     evidence about quite a number of incidents, many sides.  But the question

21     now is whether you were aware of these allegations.  Could you please

22     answer that question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 25467

 1        Q.   So I'm going to look at a couple of specific allegations in the

 2     document.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 2.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It's just a one-page document, Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  We appear not to have the attachment uploaded, so

 6     I'll come back to this document.

 7             And I'm going to ask that we have 65 ter 1D02467 for the witness.

 8        Q.   And this will be a letter from you to the VRS Main Staff and the

 9     command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  Now, looking at the beginning of

10     this letter, you write:

11             "The Government of Republika Srpska has been informed that there

12     are cases of looting, killing, setting fire to buildings and rape in the

13     municipality of Novo Sarajevo (Grbavica), committed mostly by members of

14     the Army of Republika Srpska.

15             "We have reliable information that the looted equipment and goods

16     are transported mostly by military trucks."

17             And then you demand that measures be taken.  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And below that you write:

20             "The above measures also need to be taken in other areas in

21     similar cases."

22             So you were aware that similar types of crime were happening

23     elsewhere; right?

24        A.   No.  I wasn't aware of that.  When certain reports were made

25     whenever there was any doubt, we reacted in this or similar fashion.

Page 25468

 1        Q.   Now, these reports were reports that the crimes were being

 2     committed by soldiers of the VRS; right?

 3        A.   That is correct.  In that Army of Republika Srpska, there were

 4     many who simply used the military uniform to do what they liked, whereas

 5     at the same time, they were basically not members of the armed forces.

 6     We asked the armed forces to deal with all such people who wore military

 7     uniforms doing the things we cite here.  I knew some of such things but

 8     not all.  It was under that presumption that we drafted this.

 9        Q.   Okay.  What you characterise the perpetrators as in this document

10     is members of the VRS; right?

11        A.   Well, we always did that whenever they were in military uniform.

12        Q.   Now, your government had discussed around this time these crimes,

13     these types of crimes, being committed by soldiers; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And for reference, that's in 65 ter 16760, which may

16     have a D number.

17        Q.   This wasn't the first time that you'd informed General Mladic or

18     General Galic of soldiers committing crimes in Novo Sarajevo; right?

19        A.   Probably.  If there are such documents in existence, it is true.

20     In any case, we never thought that the entire armed forces in general

21     were involved.  We could not cherry-pick such individuals.  We just

22     wanted the army to find the soldiers involved in such matters.  That was

23     our goal.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Now if we could have Exhibit P346, and I'll be

25     asking for page 157 in the English and 159 in the B/C/S.  And this is one

Page 25469

 1     of General Mladic's notebooks.

 2             And this previous document I'd ask be given a D number that's an

 3     associated exhibit.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter number 1D2467 will be D638.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D638 is admitted.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   So here we see what's identified as meeting with Prime Minister

 8     Lukic on the 25th of March 1993, and you identify some problems; theft,

 9     profiteering, looting, desire to acquire wealth.

10             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 158 in the English.  And I

11     believe we need the next page in the B/C/S as well.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Greed, I guess.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   And you inform him:

15             "Some soldiers rape even Serbian women (in Grbavica) ..."

16             And that you yourself had taken someone who'd done this out of

17     Sarajevo.  So you had reached out to General Mladic and General Galic

18     after these crimes had begun to be directed as Serbs; right?

19        A.   I'm afraid you're asking too much.  What General Mladic noted

20     down -- well, I have no reason to doubt its accuracy.  But what bothers

21     me is the word "even."  I don't think I would have used it.  But even if

22     I had, those who raped did not care who was who.  It is true that there

23     was a soldier who is no longer among the living, and I did not want to

24     mention his name, who raped each and every woman he came across.  He was

25     transferred to our territory in Romanija and he was killed.  His

Page 25470

 1     colleagues at a check-point placed close to my apartment told me that it

 2     should have been done a long time ago.  So they, too, condemned his

 3     behavior.  If that had not been a problem, it would not have been

 4     tackled.

 5             There was also corruption, profiteering, and so on and so forth.

 6     It is true that it accompanies every war.  In any case, I believe our

 7     positions were such that we had to make sure we were aware of those

 8     things happening.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 31222.

10        Q.   And here we see a report from you as prime minister to the

11     Sarajevo CSB and the Sarajevo Romanija Corps security service.  And

12     you're again referring to reports of crime in Novo Sarajevo including

13     robbery, rape, and other violent activities from which even citizens of

14     Serbian ethnicity are not spared.  So you're again expressing concern

15     that crime has started to be directed against Serbs; right?

16        A.   I believe your understanding is too narrow-minded and drastic.

17     Those who did such things did not care if the woman in question was a

18     Serb, Croat, or Muslim.  They did it dishonourably, and it wouldn't even

19     occur to any of us that women should be raped no matter whether they were

20     Serb or Muslim.  This just means taking things out of context and to rely

21     on simple words or to provide opinions does not meet the threshold in

22     terms of why we are here today.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're saying that Mr. Traldi is

24     misinterpreting it, but could you then explain why you did not write that

25     robbery, rape, and other violent activities took place?  It's in this

Page 25471

 1     letter that specifically reference is made to citizens of Serbian

 2     ethnicity as being victims, not exclusively, but it's the letter who

 3     draws the attention to the ethnicity of victims.  Any comment on why you

 4     did not write in neutral terms that these crimes are committed without

 5     any reference to ethnicity of the victims?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps what we wanted to stress

 7     was that these people were indeed greedy -- well, Serb women enjoyed a

 8     certain level of protection.  And when such people raped them, or even

 9     them, it means that they really didn't care about a thing in the world.

10     Such things are not necessarily best discussed in forums such as this

11     one, but I can tell you that many people, first and foremost Serbs,

12     reacted fiercely to it.  They were in constant communication with the

13     MUP, with the army, with the head of municipality, and so on, and they

14     insisted on doing so until the problem was dealt with.

15             Fortunately, and I don't know whether it was by sheer

16     circumstance, was that the few who were involved in such activities were

17     shortly afterwards killed --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Sir --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on front lines.  So I tend to

20     believe --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not, was not part of my question, whether

22     those suspected were killed or not.

23             Could you explain to us, please.  You said Serb women enjoyed a

24     certain level of protection.  What was the level of protection which Serb

25     women enjoyed which other women did not enjoy?

Page 25472

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First and foremost, their husbands

 2     were there in our armed forces, in our police, or worked for the

 3     municipality, et cetera.  That was the fact.  And that kind of protection

 4     came from that source.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And would Serb police officers in any way less

 6     protect other women?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a rule, I don't think they would

 8     protect them any less.  Especially if I am reminded of the people I know.

 9     They would protect all women equally and they did.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6732, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P6732 is admitted.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And I understand that we now have the full version

16     of the document I tried to use a moment ago.

17             If we could have 65 ter 31239a.  We've gone through the cover

18     page, so if we could have page 2.

19        Q.   And looking at the lower section, under the word "Timing," about

20     halfway down in the paragraph, Mr. Nobilo is writing:

21             "After 2 April 1992 (i.e. after the outbreak of the war in Bosnia

22     and Herzegovina) mass rapings of predominantly Muslim women became a

23     widespread phenomenon in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

24             My question is simply:  Were you aware during your time as prime

25     minister that there were allegations and reports of mass rapings of

Page 25473

 1     Muslim women in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And actually, Mr. President, I wonder if it might be

 3     an appropriate time for a 90(E) caution.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, this is not the right time to warn our

10     witness.  You can ask him, I'm sure, anything on this topic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I consulted with my colleague, Mr. Traldi.  From

12     what we see now, that's not, as far as we can see, whatever we have seen

13     before.  For that reason -- but of course we are not familiar with the

14     entire document, but it's about knowledge of the witness of reports.

15     That's what it's about which at this moment seems not to justify a 90(E)

16     warning.

17             Unless there is any -- we'll carefully listen to your next

18     questions and we'll also carefully look at the documents you are

19     referring to during your questions to see whether that triggers any

20     further need for Rule 90(E).

21             MR. TRALDI:  It was because I'd been moving from general to

22     somewhat more concrete allegations.  I'd --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  -- requested it, but I'm in the Chamber's hands, of

25     course.

Page 25474

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  At this moment, the Chamber finds no reason to give

 2     a Rule 90(E) warning.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  So --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, it's not a 90(E) warning but it's a

 6     90(E) information.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, just to briefly restate my question for clarity:  Were you

10     aware that it was alleged and reported that mass rapes of Muslim women

11     had occurred in Bosnia?

12        A.   I don't know what happened in all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I'm

13     pretty familiar with the situation in Sarajevo.  I can tell you that very

14     few people know Sarajevo as well as I do.  This statement is inaccurate.

15     Totally inaccurate.  I guarantee you --

16        Q.   Sir --

17        A.   -- that in Sarajevo Serb, Muslim, and Jewish women were being

18     raped.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, if one group is mass raped,

20     that does not mean that other groups were not mass raped.  That's one.

21     Second, you were not asked about whether allegations were true.  You were

22     asked about whether you were aware of these allegations and reports

23     having been made.  Were you aware or were you not?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of our opponents kept saying

25     that it was only the Serbs who raped.  I know Sarajevo and I know that

Page 25475

 1     more Serb women were raped there than Muslim women.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.  I spoke to dozens of

 4     women.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm going to interrupt you.  If you

 6     continue to refuse to limit your answers to what is asked, this might at

 7     a certain point invalidate your testimony.  Again, whether true or not,

 8     whether expressed by opponents or not, the question was whether you were

 9     aware of allegations and reports about the rapes as described here.  Were

10     you or were you not?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did hear of them just as many

12     Serbs from the area heard of it.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Turning to the top of page 3, starting at the end of the second

16     line, we read:

17             "... mass rapings occurred in the initial phase of ethnic

18     cleansing in those areas from which Muslims and Croats were later

19     completely expelled (Bijeljina, Zvornik, Foca, Visegrad, Prijedor,

20     Kozarac, Doboj, Modrica)."

21             Are those allegations you were also aware of, sir?  And by that,

22     I mean specifically that rapes had occurred in those areas and that

23     Muslims and Croats had been expelled from those areas.

24        A.   I wasn't there and I really didn't know anything about that.

25        Q.   Okay.  And I'm asking you if you were aware that it was alleged

Page 25476

 1     that this had happened.

 2        A.   That's another matter.  Wherever the Serbs were at war with

 3     Muslims, they asserted that we raped Muslim women, killed them, and so on

 4     and so forth.

 5        Q.   And were you also aware of allegations that Muslims and Croats

 6     had been expelled from areas including the ones I just identified?

 7        A.   Of course I was aware.  I had heard it.  I had worked at

 8     UNPROFOR.  I heard it there.  I heard it afterwards.  It was not just

 9     them who were expelled but all three ethnic groups would be expelling

10     each other, or to put it more clearly, people also were escaping because

11     they were afraid.

12        Q.   Now --

13             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that this document be marked for

14     identification pending the translation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6733 marked for

17     identification, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the status the document now has.  It's marked

19     for identification.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Now, sir, we looked at your programme as prime minister earlier,

23     and we saw that one of the components of it was the permanent

24     resettlement of Serb refugees in areas of the Republika Srpska.  Two

25     ministers, Velibor Ostojic and Radislav Brdjanin, were tasked to prepare

Page 25477

 1     a programme for the accommodation of refugees; right?

 2        A.   That's right.

 3        Q.   And, again, I'm just going to look at a couple of the minutes of

 4     government discussions about that programme.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  If we could is start with 65 ter 07341.

 6        Q.   This will be the 68th session of your government in April of

 7     1993.  Sorry, I should say the 68th session of the RS government.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask for page 4 in the English and 12 in

 9     the B/C/S.  Item 35.  And for the record this has been given D630, I'm

10     told.

11        Q.   Now, item 35 refers to an extensive discussion regarding the

12     materials which were prepared by the minister without a portfolio and

13     which were regarding the organisation and activities and measures to be

14     taken for the return of Serb refugees to the territory of the Republika

15     Srpska.  That was the purpose of the programme that Ministers Ostojic and

16     Brdjanin were working on; correct?

17        A.   Correct.

18             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 31243.  This will be the

19     69th session of the government.  And I'll ask for page 4 in English, 5 in

20     the B/C/S, item 4.

21        Q.   So we read here that the government reviewed the issue of the

22     accommodations of refugees comprehensively, and starting on the fourth

23     line in the English, the minutes reflect:

24             "The issue of the accommodation of refugees should be resolved

25     primarily and, as a matter of special importance, the factual situation

Page 25478

 1     should be created in the population levels in towns and settlements" --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You're reading, Mr. Traldi.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And I'll try to do so a little bit slower,

 4     Mr. President.

 5        Q.   "... towns and settlements which are planned to remain in our

 6     Republic.  This refers to the towns and settlements on the rim of our

 7     Republic, particularly in the territories which are the main directions

 8     of linking some regions of the Republic with the Federal Republic of

 9     Yugoslavia."

10             Then in paragraph 4, it notes:

11             "It was agreed that a separate plan for the accommodation of

12     refugees will be made.  It will contain the measures that need to be

13     taken immediately, as well as those of long-term character, designed to

14     resolve the status of refugees, enable their protection by the state, and

15     stimulate their permanent settlement in the places where they arrive."

16             So what we're seeing here, again, is a discussion of the

17     permanent settlement of Serb refugees in these territories; right?

18        A.   Well, you could not take everybody on a permanent basis.  A

19     number of refugees stayed with us, and that is the number that we were

20     thinking of.  Some moved to Serbia, and then also another part of the

21     refugees were moving abroad.  So it wasn't as simple as it was presented

22     on paper.

23        Q.   So not all of the refugees could be accommodated permanently.

24     The effort was to accommodate some Serb refugees on a permanent basis;

25     right?

Page 25479

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Now, here again in the documents we've looked at, we don't see

 3     any mention of resettling Muslim or Croat refugees; do we?

 4        A.   We did not have Muslim refugees for the most part in our area.

 5     They went to the other side.  Those that did stay behind or that we had,

 6     they were in their houses and their apartments.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd ask that this be marked for

 8     identification.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P6734 marked for identification,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And keep this status up until then.  For the time

13     being, it is about -- why is it marked for identification, Mr. --

14             MR. TRALDI:  To make a selection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  To make a selection.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  The Chamber will further hear from

18     the parties.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could we have 65 ter 02391.  This will be the

21     transcript of the 39th Assembly of the Republika Srpska.  If we could

22     have page 168 in the English and 135 in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   And Minister Ostojic is speaking.  And he starts by saying:

24             "Mr. Chairman, gentlemen members, although the issue of the

25     refugees has been raised many times here, I want to point out the

Page 25480

 1     complexity of this problem that has to be prioritised."

 2             Now, I don't have any questions for you about that sentence, I'm

 3     simply reading it so that it's clear what he's talking about.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Now turning to the end of that paragraph.

 5        Q.   He notes:

 6             "We have to deal with this problem first in order to establish

 7     the geographic continuity of the Serbian population in RS area."

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And then turning to the next page in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   He says:

10             "There are four areas that are extremely sensitive and which

11     should be worked on."

12             And he mentions five, actually.  Old Herzegovina, Birac,

13     Posavina, Sana Una area, and Vrbas.  And he explains where those areas

14     fall and then says:  "We lack the population."

15             So first, these were areas where efforts were being made to

16     permanently resettle those Serbs refugees; right?

17        A.   That is Ostojic's opinion because there was no real possibility

18     for this, and later I will say why.  So what Ostojic was saying you would

19     need to take with a large degree of reserve because I guarantee that none

20     of his proposals was ever implemented, neither at the assembly nor the

21     government or any other organs, and you would hear all sorts of things

22     from him.

23        Q.   That's Minister Ostojic who you appointed, along with

24     Minister Brdjanin, to be in charge of the refugee programme; right?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 25481

 1        Q.   So he's speaking of an area of his authority; right?

 2        A.   He could not implement anything because people did not trust him

 3     very much.  He didn't have the -- well, it's not all right even to talk

 4     about it much.  He's dead now.  But I can tell you how he and two other

 5     people came to see me, asking for solutions, and I can explain what sort

 6     of misconception he was living in.

 7        Q.   Were they asking for solutions specifically related to the

 8     resettlement of Serb refugees?  And I'd ask that you just answer yes or

 9     no for the moment.

10        A.   For the most part, yes.  There were no other refugees.

11        Q.   So what sort of solutions did your -- the minister in charge of

12     this programme, ask you for?

13        A.   When he came with one or two other men, he asked me that

14     settlements be made.  I said, "The land is not a problem.  We do have

15     state-owned land.  That is something that can be done.  But do you know

16     how much it would cost to build a neighbourhood for 1.000, 2- or 10.000

17     people?"  He said, "No, well, not that much."  And then I took out from

18     my pocket a calculation and showed him how much it would cost.  And then

19     when I multiplied that by the number of refugees, I said, "Ostojic, we

20     are talking about billions.  Republika Srpska will not have such billions

21     in peacetime, never mind in the middle of the war."  And then we

22     discussed things about refugees, about accommodation.  We finished that

23     discussion.

24             A solution for the refugees, if you wish to know, was sought with

25     different municipalities that had a number of reserve apartments or were

Page 25482

 1     building a number of residential buildings.  So that's how we would

 2     resolve that, for the municipality to buy or to buy out a certain number

 3     of apartments and that would be just one way of dealing with the numerous

 4     problems that we had to deal with.

 5        Q.   Now, some of the municipalities that you tried to resolve it with

 6     that way were in the areas that Mr. Ostojic mentioned here; right?  Those

 7     areas again are old Herzegovina, Birac, Posavina, Sana Una area?

 8        A.   Those are weak municipalities.  We would mostly find a base or

 9     support in Banja Luka or in Bijeljina, a little bit in Trebinje, and so

10     on and so forth.  I don't have to number them all.  The municipalities

11     that were, as we say, broke, they were not really able to help anybody

12     much.

13        Q.   Now, by this point, early 1994 is when this assembly session was

14     held, you were aware of the strategic objectives of the Bosnian Serbs;

15     right?

16        A.   There was a lot of talk about that but not much came out of it.

17     I was not present at the meeting.  I was not in the government at the

18     time.  So I heard from others about the strategic goals.  I did have a

19     number of conversations, but mostly I heard that from Mr. Karadzic when

20     he once was talking about some of the goals at a government meeting, and

21     then a little bit in more detail at an assembly session.  However, I must

22     say that I did not read the original text in the official bulletin until

23     2006 when I went to testify in the trial against -- relating to the

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina indictment.  So I did hear about it before but I read

25     about it in detail when I went, as I said, to testify.

Page 25483

 1             And let me add something.  Many municipalities also had their own

 2     additional objectives, and if one calmly sat and collated them all, you

 3     would not just have that number that was cited at the meeting but the

 4     number of those objectives would be larger.

 5        Q.   Sir, you've provided a lot of information.  What I'd like to do

 6     is go back to my original question.  By this point in early 1994, you

 7     were aware of the six strategic objectives set out by President Karadzic,

 8     weren't you?

 9        A.   Yes, I said that before that I did hear him.  So I cannot say

10     that I didn't hear of them.  But I can say that I did not read about that

11     in detail.  And I said earlier when was the first time that I read them

12     in detail in the Official Gazette.

13        Q.   Now, what I was interested in wasn't when you first read them in

14     the Official Gazette but when you first became aware of them, and I

15     understand you have to confirmed that that was before this point in early

16     1994.  That's correct, right?

17        A.   This was in late 1993 or also in 1994.  I did hear that both in

18     the government and the assembly sessions.  I'm not quite sure about the

19     date.

20        Q.   And the areas that Minister Ostojic has identified you knew to be

21     consistent with the strategic objectives of the Serbian people as set out

22     by President Karadzic; right?

23        A.   I wasn't quite sure.  And they were not quite -- they didn't --

24     they were not quite the same.  They didn't overlap.

25        Q.   Well, it's very different to say they're not quite the same and

Page 25484

 1     that they didn't overlap at all, so I'm just going to look at them very

 2     quickly with you.  Srbinje, that's what was called Foca before that,

 3     right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Srbinje, Visegrad, Rogatica, and then also Vlasenica, Bratunac,

 6     and Zvornik.  Those are in the area of the Drina River; right?

 7        A.   No.  Rogatica is not quite along the river Drina.  No.

 8        Q.   Is it in the area --

 9        A.   [Overlapping speakers].

10        Q.   Is it in the area, sir, identified as Podrinje?

11        A.   Yes, it's more in the Romanija area.  Podrinje, Foca, Gorazde,

12     Visegrad, Bratunac, Zvornik and so on and so forth.

13        Q.   And Posavina that's in the area of the corridor, right,

14     identified by the second strategic objective?

15        A.   Yes.  That was -- that's in the direction of Banja Luka, let's

16     say.  Let's say that.  Posavina lies along the Sava River.  It's on the

17     right bank of the Sava.

18        Q.   And the Una area includes the Una River and the border on the Una

19     was also one of the strategic objectives; right?

20        A.   Most probably, yes.  That could have been Novi Grad or

21     Bosanski Novi as it was called before.  Only a part of the Una

22     practically belonged to Republika Srpska and that is this part above Novi

23     all the way down to the confluence and on.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that this document be marked for

25     identification so that we can make a selection.

Page 25485

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  It should get a D number.  It's an associated

 3     exhibit.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D639 marked for

 5     identification, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D639 is MFI'd.

 7             I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Traldi.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in your hands, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I would like to take a break now, but could

10     you tell us on how much more time you would need?

11             MR. TRALDI:  I think I will be most of today but should finish

12     today.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Then, Witness, will you please follow the usher.  We'll take a

15     break of 20 minutes.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   Just to conclude, sir, the area that we were discussing before

24     the break.  I'd put to you that the refugees that were being permanently

25     resettled and the ones that were being assisted in returning to the

Page 25486

 1     Republika Srpska's territory were Serbs.  That's true, isn't it?

 2        A.   The greatest percentage of them were Serbs.

 3        Q.   Now, I'm going to turn now to discussing the Republika Srpska's

 4     objectives for what that territory would include.  Bosnian Serb

 5     objectives entailed claims to more than 60 per cent of Bosnia; correct?

 6        A.   I can only speak on the basis of my calculations.  The Serbs

 7     possessed 63 per cent of BiH territory.  If we exclude state-owned

 8     property, the percentage was 52 per cent.  No matter what calculation was

 9     used, they were needed to be accorded at least 11 or 12 per cent of all

10     forested areas.

11             So all in all, they had more than 60 per cent of all property in

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina in their position.  There were percentages

13     mentioned during the war about 66 or 67.  I discussed the percentage with

14     some people and the highest figure that circulated at the time was at

15     around 67 per cent of the territory which we de facto had in our

16     possession.

17             After NATO bombardment, things developed differently.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  somewhat more detail about

19     the rational for your calculations than I've asked for, but I think that

20     you've explained your position.

21             Now, the claims to more than 60 per cent of the territory, in

22     your official capacity, you relayed those claims to

23     Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, among other leaders; right?

24        A.   Not only myself but others as well.  But I stood by that

25     argument.

Page 25487

 1        Q.   I just want to look at one example quickly.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 31225 be brought to our screens.

 3        Q.   Now, this is a letter you sent to the Secretary-General and other

 4     leaders.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have page 2 in both languages.  And

 6     I'm looking at the middle of the page in the English and the third

 7     sentence in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   You write:

 9             "We emphasize that the territory of the Bosnia and Herzegovina

10     have been, during the middle ages, populated only by the Serb people and

11     it has belonged to the Serb middle-aged country ..."

12             Now, you're emphasizing here that you consider Bosnia to

13     historically be Serb territory; correct?

14        A.   Yes, in principle.

15        Q.   And below that you write:

16             "The structure of the population have changed by the intensive

17     Islamisation and conversion to Catholicism of the Serb people during the

18     rule of Turkey, Venice, and Austria-Hungary.  In spite of that, before

19     the Second World War, the Serbs owned 67 per cent of the territory and

20     today they own 64 per cent of the territory of the former socialist

21     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

22             So you're saying here, as you've said a moment ago in testimony,

23     that you believe the Serbs to be entitled to 64 per cent or more of the

24     territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina; right?

25        A.   Although I was aware of this, I never believed it should be

Page 25488

 1     implemented because I always believed other ethnicities had to live there

 2     as well and that no one should be driven away or destroyed.  Here, as

 3     well as in Dayton, we did present maximalist requests but the result is

 4     well known to everyone.  The other side -- the other sides had similar

 5     requests as well.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Can we see the end of this document in English.

 7        Q.   And do you recognise the signature?

 8        A.   Yes, it is mine.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document, 65 ter

10     31225.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6735, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Now turning to some specific territories.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I'd like to look at 65 ter 31215.

17        Q.   This will be an interview with you in the VRS magazine

18     "Srpska Vojska."

19             MR. TRALDI:  I'm looking at the middle column of page 1 towards

20     the bottom in the B/C/S.  And page 2 in the English.

21        Q.   Now, you're in the course of explaining why you oppose the

22     Vance-Owen Plan, and you say:

23             "At least 40 per cent of the Serbs would be under alien rule.

24     For example, the surrounds of Sarajevo, Birac, Posavina, the

25     municipalities of Krupa na Uni, Novi Grad, Prijedor, and Sanski Most,

Page 25489

 1     where the Serbs are in the majority and where they have more than 50

 2     per cent of the territory, would be under Muslim rule."

 3             Do you see that?

 4        A.   I know that.  I don't need to look at it.

 5        Q.   And your position at the time was that those territories needed

 6     to be under Serb rule; correct?

 7        A.   Of course.

 8        Q.   Now, neither Prijedor nor Sanski Most were Serb majority

 9     municipalities before the war, were they?

10        A.   That is not correct.  The Serbs were in the majority before the

11     slaughtering which took place in both Sanski Most and Prijedor.

12        Q.   When you say "before the slaughtering," which war are you

13     referring to?

14        A.   I'm referring to the Second World War, when I observed the

15     slaughtering involving five-and-a-half-thousand Serbs and 50 Jews.  I was

16     only eight years old at the time.

17        Q.   It was your position that in part because of what had happened

18     during the Second World War these area had to be under Serb control;

19     right?

20        A.   Because of that and because the Serbs were in the majority.  The

21     elections in 1990 showed that the Serbs were in the majority in both

22     Sanski Most and Prijedor.  I won't even go into any details about the

23     slaughter in Prijedor which took place in World War II.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 31215.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 25490

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6736, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Just as to who was the majority in those

 4     municipalities, could Prosecution have P3853.  And this is a report from

 5     CSB Banja Luka in 1995.  And it's from the Republika Srpska Ministry of

 6     the Interior office in Banja Luka.

 7             If we could have page 6 at the bottom in English and the top in

 8     B/C/S.

 9        Q.   So, sir, this document's going to include both 1991 and 1995

10     figures.  What I'm interested in at the moment are the 1991 figures

11     before the war.  So the RS MUP is reporting that 1991 Prijedor, 42.45

12     per cent Serbs, 43.97 per cent Muslims, 5.6 per cent Croats.  So that's

13     not a Serb majority municipality, is it, according to the RS MUP?

14        A.   Please look at the statute when the assembly was being

15     established in Prijedor.  You will see in the statute that the Serbs were

16     in the majority; hence, they assumed power.  They could not have without

17     being in the majority.  The same is the case with Sanski Most.

18        Q.   Well, let's look at Sanski Most too.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Page 8 at the top in English and page 7 in B/C/S.

20        Q.   So the RS is MUP is saying that as of 1991, Sanski Most Serbs

21     42.2 per cent, Muslims 47 per cent, Croats 7 per cent.

22             So again, the RS MUP is saying that as of 1991, Sanski Most was

23     not a Serb majority municipality; right?

24        A.   No, not right.  They would not have been able to come to power.

25     All those who were put in power had to have been in the majority.  The

Page 25491

 1     situation was the same in Sanski Most and Prijedor.  Check it yourself.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You make a clear distinction between any outcome of

 3     any voting and the ethnic composition as declared by those being asked.

 4             Now, I do not know exactly this report, whether it's how people

 5     declared themselves or not.  I also do not know what you are referring

 6     to, that you say you can't be in power.  I mean, if all the others are

 7     voting in favour of Serb parties --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers].

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, for Sanski Most that would not have helped out

10     sufficiently because it was 1.65 per cent.  If you add that to 42.20

11     per cent, you're still not yet at the level of the Muslim percentage.  So

12     there, at least, from mathematically, it doesn't explain it.  But if you

13     say they could not have been anything else than the majority because they

14     had the power, that certainly needs more explanation.  And perhaps

15     Mr. Lukic will assist you in bringing that evidence.

16             Or do you say these numbers are inaccurate?  That's another

17     possible explanation.  That you say, well, whatever they say here, it's

18     the -- Banja Luka SJB, I think it was, is just wrong in -- with their

19     numbers, which is, of course, another possible explanation.  Which is it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sanski Most is no longer of

21     relevance nowadays because the Muslims are in power there.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbs, for the most part, left

24     Sanski Most.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we are talking about the 1991 situation and

Page 25492

 1     what is relevant or not relevant is at this moment defined by the

 2     questions that are put to you.  Therefore, if you want to explain

 3     Sanski Most any further, please focus on the 1991 figure and don't tell

 4     us that it's not relevant because I'd like to know.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1990, the Serbs assumed power in

 7     Sanski Most and in Prijedor.  Mr. Karadzic has the statute of the

 8     municipality of Prijedor from 1990.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Separate --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is unaware of the Statute, what exactly

12     it is the witness refers to.

13             Mr. Lukic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, but if we look to the document there is no

15     any kind of --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers].

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second please.  One second please.

18             Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  There is no -- not any kind of authorisation of this

20     document.  It's some kind of copy with no stamp, with no signature.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's a -- you say we are contesting the

22     authenticity of the document.

23             MR. LUKIC:  We do.  There is no number, either.  So this is not a

24     document that would be usually produced with -- inside any organ,

25     especially not police with no number, no authorisation, no signature,

Page 25493

 1     nothing whatsoever.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yeah, I don't --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I don't have the provenance information at my finger

 5     tips but I'll provide it --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  -- as soon as it's available.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait for that.

 9             When I addressed Mr. Lukic, I addressed Counsel Lukic, Mr. Lukic,

10     and I am aware that it may create confusion now and then.

11             Again, the statute the witness was talking about is, as far as I

12     am aware, unknown to the Chamber or at least it is -- or doesn't ring a

13     bell immediately as far as I'm concerned.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I know this -- I know it.  I saw it some time in the

15     Stakic case but I don't have it on me now.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then if that sheds any further light on

17     the testimony of the witness, then, of course, the Chamber would like to

18     have a look at it.

19             MR. TRALDI:  And thanks to people a little bit more skillful than

20     I am, we can already provide provenance about this document that is

21     currently on the screen which was recovered from the Banja Luka CSB in

22     February 1998.  The Banja Luka CSB being who the cover page purports to

23     have authored the document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, whether it's a final document or not, what we

25     now know is that it apparently was located in the CSB offices in

Page 25494

 1     Banja Luka.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm happy to review the relevant portions of the

 3     census with Mr. Lukic.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  But --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If we are --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  -- by that I mean the counsel.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if we are talking about 1991, of course, then the

 9     census as a source of information may be available as well.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, you were talking about how the Serbs came to power in both

13     those areas.  In fact in Prijedor, Serbs took over power in late April

14     1992; right?

15        A.   I am unaware of that.  All I know is how they came to power after

16     the voting process.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31220.  This is a document

18     signed for Mr. Lukic and sent to the Prijedor assembly.

19        Q.   And you see the date 30th of April, 1993; correct?

20        A.   I see it.

21        Q.   And this text says:

22             "Please accept my heartiest congratulations on the anniversary of

23     the take-over of power and defence of the Serbian people of the

24     Municipality of Prijedor."

25             Does this refresh your recollection as to whether you were aware

Page 25495

 1     that power was taken over by the Serbs in Prijedor on the 30th of April

 2     1992?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  No, it was --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It was assumed --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  -- assumed one --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.  I was addressing counsel.

 7     Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  You can call me Branko today.

 9             It is assumed that Mr. Lukic, Professor Lukic, is author of this

10     document, but I think that he already answered before my objection.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, it wasn't assumed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I said it was signed for him.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Signed for him.  That's the literal text Mr. Traldi

15     used.

16             So perhaps if that is in issue -- well, there was a letter

17     apparently signed for you, Professor Lukic.  Does that refresh your

18     recollection in any way about --

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the take-over of power in Prijedor in 1992?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I don't

22     remember this letter.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   And is it your evidence that you were unaware during your time as

25     prime minister of what is termed here the take-over of power and defence

Page 25496

 1     of the Serbian people of the municipality of Prijedor as it occurred in

 2     April 1992?

 3        A.   I cannot say that I don't know, but I don't know in which form,

 4     how, when, and where.  But I did hear --

 5        Q.   Now --

 6        A.   -- of it.

 7        Q.   -- you were aware when you gave the interview we just looked at,

 8     so I'm speaking of 1993 now, May 1993, that large numbers of non-Serbs

 9     had left Prijedor, Sanski Most, and some of the other areas you described

10     since the beginning of the war; right?

11        A.   Yes, I knew that.  Others knew it.  And was it wasn't just in

12     these places.  Serbs were leaving in many other places as well.  So this

13     was a well known thing throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm going to stop you at this moment and

15     I'll explain to you what your role is as a witness here.

16             You've given a statement.  In that statement, many things are

17     described, including misbehaviour, crimes committed by Muslims, by

18     Croats.  There is a strong emphasis on those horrible events.

19             Now, if Mr. Traldi asks you questions which he intends sheds some

20     light on another part of the history, then there is no need to again and

21     again refer to what is already in evidence; that is, that others may have

22     misbehaved as well in evidence through your statement.

23             Therefore, if you emphasize again and again that it's unbalanced

24     what others say, please be aware that what Mr. Traldi is doing is first

25     of all to test the probative value of the evidence you gave in your

Page 25497

 1     statement; and second, perhaps shed a different light on some of the

 2     events you describe as well.

 3             Now, leave that to the parties, leave it to Branko Lukic to

 4     specifically address matters which you find very important apparently to

 5     address, and leave it to Mr. Traldi to test that evidence, to challenge

 6     it to the extent he considers that's necessary, and to give, according to

 7     the Prosecution's view, another balance than the one apparently you

 8     consider to be the right one.  Leave that to the parties and refrain from

 9     further again and again imposing what, in your view, the balance is

10     rather than to answer the questions that are put to you.

11             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd tender this document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6737, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, your government conducted a census in 1993; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now the Chamber has received evidence --

21             MR. TRALDI:  P3791.

22        Q.   -- showing that "Kozarski Vjesnik" in Prijedor published census

23     results showing that it had become a 96 per cent Serb municipality when

24     the census was done.  You were aware of that, weren't you?

25        A.   Well, I had to know because I had the census in front of me.

Page 25498

 1        Q.   Now, one of the topics from your platform that we haven't

 2     discussed much subsequently is integration with other Serb states, and

 3     I'm going to look at an interview with you around the time of your

 4     platform.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31228.  This will be an

 6     interview in "Glas Srpski" in January 1993.  And looking in row 5 of

 7     paragraph 5 the of the B/C/S, and I admit the English apparently has just

 8     come through.

 9        Q.   But you say --

10             MR. TRALDI:  So I don't have an English reference.

11        Q.   I'm just going to ask if you see this in B/C/S, for efficiency.

12     You state:

13             "I hope that in the areas where the Serbian people are, there

14     will be a united market.  But between the Serbian republics there will be

15     no borders or customs, that we will have a common currency, that we will

16     be one state."

17             Was that your position at this time on integration with the other

18     Serbian states?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I'd tender this document.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6738, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23             MR. TRALDI:  And one more on the same point.  If we could have

24     65 ter 31221.  This is a portion of an interview with you in "Podgrmec

25     Novine" in June 1994.  And the English includes only the portion that

Page 25499

 1     we're interested in.  So in the B/C/S if we could go to page 2.

 2             And I believe it's the third paragraph under the heading:

 3     "Minimum Military Losses."

 4        Q.   And you say:

 5             "When I talk about the creation of the Serbian state, you have to

 6     believe us, that Republika Srpska is not a goal.  Our goal is the

 7     creation of the Serbian state from Dimitrovgrad until Obrovac, not to

 8     mention the north and south."

 9             Now does this set out your position on integration of Serbian

10     states?

11        A.   No.  No, that is not my position.  I think I was absolutely

12     thinking of the Serbian state, but this area that is mentioned here is

13     something that was probably the journalist's position that he cited.

14        Q.   Now he's saying you said this.  Is it your position that you

15     didn't say it?

16        A.   I think that he did not interpret what I said correctly.  This is

17     not my position, that I wanted to have the Serbian state stretching from

18     Dimitrovgrad and so on.  That is not what I thought then.

19        Q.   And, sir, I'm about to turn to my final topic --

20             MR. TRALDI:  Which would take about ten minutes.  For continuity,

21     I'd request that we do it in the morning, if that's all right with the

22     Bench.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be better.

24             I take it that you don't wish to tender this, where the witness

25     says he's misquoted.

Page 25500

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Unless the Chamber wishes it to evaluate his

 2     evidence then --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Then no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You've read the portion that -- and we have seen

 6     that.  And there is no dispute, Mr. Branko Lukic, that the quote is taken

 7     accurately from the publication.  And also not that it is the source and

 8     that it was June 1994.  Then we have all the information on the record.

 9             Professor Lukic, we are almost done with your cross-examination.

10     Not entirely yet.  I'd like to give you the same instructions as I did

11     yesterday; that is, that you should not speak or communicate in whatever

12     way or with whomever about your testimony to be given or still to be

13     given tomorrow.  I'm not saying the day after tomorrow.  Just tomorrow.

14     And we would like to see you back at 9.30 in the morning in this same

15     courtroom.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, yes, I'm -- now I say Mr. Lukic again

18     because Professor Lukic has left the courtroom.

19             Mr. Lukic, as far as matters stand now, how much time do you

20     think you would need tomorrow?

21             MR. LUKIC:  I joked with Mr. Traldi.  I said I will finish

22     tomorrow, don't worry.  But it will be easier for me when I sort out

23     everything.  As much as I can see now, probably one hour.  But --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- maybe a bit more.

Page 25501

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would expect to not finish later than --

 2     well, let's say in the second session.  10 minutes in the first session,

 3     50 minutes for Mr. Traldi, one hour and 50 minutes at the maximum.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please try --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I will.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as good as you can to stay in that time-limit.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It only takes us time to open the document.

 9     Otherwise I don't have many questions per document but there are many

10     documents.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps you could also adapt your practice to

12     that and once you are -- and once you are, for example, just to the

13     Registry provide a list of the documents you intend to use before they

14     start so that they can be --

15             MR. LUKIC:  I can give them all to the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that is not necessarily to be done to the -- to

17     the Prosecution in advance, I'm saying.  I'm not saying that you finally

18     don't have to do it.  But okay.  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume

19     tomorrow the 10th of September, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

20     courtroom, I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day

23                           of September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.