Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25502

 1                           Wednesday, 10 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honours.  This

 7     is the case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 9             As was announced yesterday to the parties, the Chamber is - and

10     it's very unfortunate, but we can't change it - is unable to sit on

11     Thursday.  The Chamber wants to express its appreciation that the Defence

12     was willing to change the order of the next witnesses to be called, which

13     would avoid that two witnesses have to wait for a long time over the

14     weekend because we'll not sit on Friday and Monday either.  That's highly

15     appreciated.

16             Then in view of the time indications, that -- we have to stop

17     today at 2.00 sharp.  Not any moment later.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But in view of the time estimates, the Chamber

20     thinks that it would be possible to finish the witness next to be called

21     in time.

22             I have -- I know that there are a few minor matters which I'll

23     leave for a later moment and let's first continue the cross-examination

24     of the present witness.

25             Good morning, Mr. Lukic, or I should say Professor Lukic, in

Page 25503

 1     order to avoid any confusion about whom I'm addressing.  Perhaps needless

 2     to say but I would like to remind you that you are still bound by the

 3     solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.  And

 4     Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

 5             Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR LUKIC [Resumed]

 8                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

10        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Are you able to receive interpretation?

11        A.   Yes, yes, I hear it.

12        Q.   Sir, yesterday at transcript page 25497 you testified you

13     confirmed that your government conducted a consensus in 1993 and that you

14     personally reviewed the results.  Do you recall when you reviewed the

15     results, what month and what year?

16        A.   No, I don't.  But I know that when they were completed, the

17     results, I had the opportunity to see them.

18        Q.   Were they published?

19        A.   As far as I know, yes.  But even if they were not published in

20     the Official Gazette, they were sent out to all the municipalities.

21        Q.   And they were also shared with members of your government;

22     correct?

23        A.   Absolutely.

24        Q.   And other members of the Supreme Command?

25        A.   Of course.

Page 25504

 1        Q.   Now, you confirmed yesterday that you were aware that the census

 2     showed that Prijedor had become 96 [Realtime transcript read in error

 3     "69"] per cent Serb.  The senses showed that the proportion of Serbs in

 4     other municipalities in Republika Srpska had also become much higher than

 5     it had been in 1991; correct?

 6        A.   I don't remember how it was by municipality, but it was probably

 7     that because the other peoples left our entity just like our people left

 8     the other entities.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Just briefly for the transcript, at page 3, line 1,

10     I am recorded to have said 69 per cent and I believe I said or at least

11     meant to say 96 per cent.

12        Q.   Sir --

13             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, I'd ask that we go into private session,

14     briefly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

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Page 25505











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Page 25506

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20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31226.  This will be an article

24     from the "Christian Science Monitor" dated the 14th of October 1993.  And

25     if we could turn to the second page in both languages, please.  And I'm

Page 25507

 1     looking at the fourth paragraph in the English and a little bit lower

 2     down in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Now you're quoted here as saying:

 4             "'I personally estimate that when the war is finished, maybe 10

 5     to 15 per cent of the non-Serb population will stay and live in the

 6     Serbian Republic ...'"

 7             Is that an accurate statement of your position at the time?

 8        A.   If that's what it says, I probably did say it.  But I don't

 9     remember because, truth be told, I was thinking about how all those who

10     had left Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially those who had left the former

11     Yugoslavia, that it would be difficult for these people to return.  Not

12     only because they wouldn't dare but simply because they would be already

13     living in better conditions.  I don't know if these two things are

14     connected.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6739, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

19             Mr. Traldi, you announced 10 minutes yesterday.  We are --

20             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, I have one more document to look at,

21     Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, you testified yesterday that as prime minister, you met with

25     representatives of Serbia and Montenegro.  One of the persons you met was

Page 25508

 1     the deputy prime minister of Montenegro; correct?

 2        A.   I met with the two presidents once and I think the deputy, who

 3     unfortunately died shortly after.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 07593.  These are

 5     the minutes of the 8th Session of the Supreme Defence Council dated the

 6     12th of March 1993.  And if we could turn to page 31 in the English and

 7     page 26 in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Now, the speaker here is Momir Bulatovic, the president of

 9     Montenegro?

10             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could scroll to the very bottom of the

11     page in B/C/S and just above the number 26 in the English.

12        Q.   He says:

13             "The other day, the prime minister of Republika Srpska talked

14     with the deputy prime minister of Montenegro."

15             As of this time, the 12th of March, 1993 --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You're reading.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I am.  I apologise.  I'll read again.

18        Q.   He says:

19             "The other day, the prime minister of Republika Srpska talked

20     with the deputy prime minister of Montenegro."

21             As of this time, the 12th of March 1993, you were the prime

22     minister of Republika Srpska; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your quotation ended -- oh, now it's corrected in

25     the transcript.

Page 25509

 1             Please continue.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I think my next question will, in my view, require a

 3     90(E) information from the Chamber.  I'm happy to ask it and wait for the

 4     Chamber's view, if that's the Chamber's preference.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you -- Witness, would you carefully listen to the

 6     next question but not yet answer it.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Now turning to page 27, paragraph 1 in the B/C/S.

 8     And just below the number 26 in the English.

 9        Q.   Mr. Bulatovic is speaking and says:

10             "We are obliged to help them.  But we are also obliged to

11     understand that we can hardly co-operate with someone who, like the

12     Prime Minister of Republika Srpska, advises us to ethnically cleanse

13     Sandzak and kill the Muslims there."

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we move to the next page in English,

15     please.

16             MR. TRALDI:  If we could just scroll down.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, no.  I missed that.  Sorry.

18             MR. TRALDI:  What we lost on the page in the English now is

19     Slobodan Milosevic asking "Who says that?"  And what we have now at the

20     top of the page is Mr. Bulatovic's answer.

21        Q.   "The Prime Minister of Republika Srpska, Lukic.  He advises us to

22     do it as soon as possible, for Muslims are not to be trusted.  They will

23     stab us in the back.  They will mine our railroad," and so on.

24             My question, and I'd remind you that the Judges had asked you not

25     to answer it yet, my question will simply be whether you recall this

Page 25510

 1     conversation as described by Mr. Bulatovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The reason why I asked you not to answer it yet is

 3     because I want to draw your attention to Rule 90(E) of the Rules of

 4     Procedure and Evidence and I'll read it to you.  It states:

 5             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

 6     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

 7     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

 8     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

 9     offence other than false testimony."

10             The question allows for various answers.  I do not know the

11     answer.  But if a truthful answer might tend to incriminate yourself, and

12     I take it that Mr. Traldi was mainly focusing on the quote where it said

13     that you advised to ethnic cleansing, a truthful answer if that might to

14     incriminate yourself, you may address me and may ask to be relieved from

15     answering that question.  The Chamber will then consider how to proceed.

16     I just wanted to inform you that you have that right as a witness.  Is it

17     clear to you?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then would you please -- I'll read again the

20     question that was put to you by Mr. Traldi.  The question was whether you

21     recall this conversation as it was described by Mr. Bulatovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember the conversation with

23     Mr. Bulatovic, but the conversation did not proceed in this way.  All I

24     said to Mr. Bulatovic was that there were some indications that Muslims

25     from Montenegro were sending -- or actually transferring weapons to

Page 25511

 1     Gorazde in Bosnia and Herzegovina and that was our discussion.  Because

 2     here it seems that he wanted to get in the good graces of Milosevic and

 3     that's why he said it, but otherwise everybody knows that I was not a

 4     warmonger and I refuse even the idea that I was ever somebody who was

 5     supporting ethnic cleansing.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Did you recommend or advise Mr. Bulatovic to take any action

 8     about the Muslims from Montenegro who you said were transferring weapons?

 9        A.   All I said was that it should be controlled because it was

10     threatening us and creating considerable problems.  Nothing more than

11     that.

12        Q.   So I'd put to you that you did ask Mr. Bulatovic to take action,

13     that you did ask him to control the Muslims in Montenegro that you

14     believed to be a threat.  I'd put to you that he has no reason to

15     embellish that story when speaking to the Supreme Defence Council.  I'd

16     put to you that his version of the conversation is accurate.  That's

17     true, isn't it?

18        A.   It's a pure lie.  It's immoral.  I could not have been speaking

19     about the Muslims of Montenegro.  I was talking about the villages that

20     border on Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I said that there were indications

21     that they were sending weapons to Gorazde.  This later proved to have

22     been true.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Microphone.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.  Your Honours, that completes my

Page 25512

 1     cross-examination and I'd ask that this document be, given the length,

 2     marked for identification.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be P6740 marked for identification,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And keeps that status for the time being.

 7             Mr. Lukic, are you ready to re-examine the witness?  I see --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I just need one minute to organise myself.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll continue for the next session.

10     Branko Lukic, are you ready?

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor Lukic, good morning again.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Last time I told you that these were questions that we had for

15     now, but my experience with Mr. Traldi is that he makes us work a lot.

16     He prepares very well, so we need to respond to his questions.  So I

17     would like to begin with a document that we can look at.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at D629 MFI, in e-court

19     please.

20        Q.   Professor, these are the minutes of the 66th Government Session

21     held on the 20th of March 1993.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at page 12 in

23     English and page 17 in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And questions on this were put to you also by the Prosecution.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to look at item 45.

Page 25513

 1        Q.   Here you were asked about the Personnel Commission.  Could you

 2     briefly just tell us what this commission was doing, what was its remit,

 3     what were its responsibilities in relation to the municipalities, for

 4     example?

 5        A.   Well, I must say that it did not have a great deal of

 6     responsibilities, but in any case it reviewed certain questions that were

 7     of interest for the government in the area of the economy,

 8     administration, education, and so on and so forth.  I can say that this

 9     commission, during the brief time that it existed, worked very solidly

10     and responsibly.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at the third page in the

13     English and the fourth page in the B/C/S, in this same document.  We need

14     to look at item 2 at the bottom of the page in both versions.

15        Q.   It's a little bit hard to read it in the B/C/S.  I'm going to

16     read it.  It says:

17             "The Government noted that the Report of the Ministry of Defence

18     gave a realistic picture of the problems in the financial situation in

19     the Army of Republika Srpska and that the activities and measures

20     indicated for their resolution were good in general."

21             The questions relate to the 66th Session.  In the context of the

22     discussion about war booty, when it was suggested to you that the war

23     booty was used for the needs of the army, you said on transcript page

24     25426, lines 15 on, Judge Orie cautioned you.  I'm going to quote now

25     from line 15 onwards:

Page 25514

 1             "[In English] Mr. Lukic told me be true.  The question of

 2     Mr. Traldi is whether this discussion was under the heading of financing

 3     problems in the Army of Republika Srpska.  So apart from what other

 4     financial issues there may have been, but whether this discussion he just

 5     referred to, whether that was part of an agenda item about financing

 6     problems of the army.

 7                 "THE WITNESS:  Well, the general problems of financing were

 8     discussed.  Among those topics was also the topic of the army.

 9                 "JUDGE ORIE:  Agenda item 2, I'll read it for you, is reports

10     on the financing problems in the Army of Republika Srpska.  Those are

11     specifically focusing on the financing problems of the army."

12             And your answer was:

13             "We were never entirely able to deal with the financing of the

14     army without including everything that I have said previously regardless

15     of whether this was discussed at that meeting or not.  This is something

16     that I know very well."

17             And Judge Orie said:

18             "Yes, but Mr. Traldi focuses on this meeting and he'll now

19     continue."

20             [Interpretation] So let's see what the discussion was during this

21     session.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at page 4 in the

23     English and the 5th page in the B/C/S version of the document.  We are

24     interested in item 1.

25        Q.   Which reads:

Page 25515

 1             "Urgent reorganisation of the Army of Republika Srpska.  The

 2     needed number of soldiers must be determined urgently and the surplus

 3     reassigned, according to available records, to work obligations in the

 4     process of reanimating economic production.  In the process, particularly

 5     bear in mind exempting professionals who are needed in production from

 6     compulsory military service."

 7             Was this one of the things you had in mind, Professor, when you

 8     said that the issue of the armed forces was always being discussed in a

 9     more general context?

10        A.   That is correct.  That is how we had to approach it, given our

11     situation over all.

12        Q.   The document goes on to say:

13             "Define the main task of the army and that of civilian organs,

14     particularly in the domain of the economy.

15             "See to it that everybody, especially the army, state organs and

16     commercial organisations in Republika Srpska is doing their work

17     responsibly and independently."

18             Although this falls under the topic of the army, but does this

19     segment entail the overall picture as well?

20        A.   Yes, certainly.  Our finances were in such a state that if we

21     discussed the economy it could not go without discussing the armed

22     forces, and if we discussed the armed forces we could not but touch upon

23     other state segments.  One always needs to bear in mind that it was in a

24     time of war.

25        Q.   Item 2 of the same part, referring to the army, which is under

Page 25516

 1     item 2 or "ad 2."  The document reads:

 2             "Take all measures to revive and organise production,

 3     particularly in the domain of the special purpose industry.  In order to

 4     fulfil this task, use personnel who are not crucial for combat

 5     operations, and available economic resources, natural resources, etc."

 6             While planning economic activities during the war, Professor, did

 7     you have to take into account what people were participating in combat

 8     and that economic activity was interlinked with military activities?

 9        A.   Yes, certainly.  Although I must say that the economy functioned,

10     to a certain extent, better in the time of war than it does nowadays.

11     The educational system was still intact and operational as well at all

12     levels.  Under such circumstances, we paid particular attention to the

13     economy and production.  It was our belief that unless the economy was up

14     and running, nothing else would be provided for including the army and

15     civilians.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we go to further detail, let me first see

17     whether there is not some confusion.

18             I think what Mr. Traldi did yesterday was to focus on specific

19     portions of this discussion.  And when the witness answered by saying,

20     "Well, this was a kind of general discussion," that Mr. Traldi focused on

21     what the heading of the discussion was.  I did not gain the impression

22     that Mr. Traldi was -- that it was his position that financial issues

23     about the army would not be linked to, would not be related to other

24     economic circumstances in society.  That was my understanding and

25     apparently, Mr. Lukic, you're now establishing that there were such links

Page 25517

 1     and there were interactions between army finance and overall society

 2     finance.  Therefore, I wonder whether there is any real dispute here.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  We don't dispute that there were links between the

 4     finances of the army and other government institutions, and I hadn't

 5     intended to entire about macroeconomic principles or anything of that

 6     nature.  I'd intended to refer to the agenda item as set out in page 1 in

 7     both languages.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, so therefore please consider to what

 9     extent we really have a dispute or not.

10             You may proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will conclude this

12     topic in that case, although I had prepared a number of other questions.

13        Q.   You mentioned natural resources yesterday.  You mentioned coal,

14     electricity, timber.  All of it was interlinked.  On some subsequent

15     pages of this document, in particular in item 4, we see the issue of war

16     booty being referenced.  Professor, what is war booty?  What was

17     considered to be war booty?

18        A.   First of all, you know all too well that in a time of war

19     different things are being seized, plundered, looted, et cetera.

20     However, we only considered war booty to be such items that were not

21     seized by force from any citizen unless it was taken from those citizens

22     who had illegally obtained it and items seized from the enemy.  Perhaps

23     this may not include everything in total but in general terms that is

24     what was considered to be war booty.

25        Q.   What about apartments, houses, and the property of people who

Page 25518

 1     resided there, Muslims and Croats, was it also considered war booty?

 2        A.   Private property could not come under the term "war booty" in any

 3     case.  No one could manipulate it, take it away, or distribute it to

 4     anyone including the army.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  The next topic, concerning paragraph 56 of your

 6     statement.  Yesterday, my learned friend, Mr. Traldi, at transcript page

 7     25429, line 16 and onwards, asked you about your assertion that the

 8     Muslims in Cerska and Srebrenica painted a fake or a false picture of

 9     their situation.  You tried to explain something about Cerska when you

10     were interrupted.  What kind of information did you have about what the

11     Serb forces in the area came across or found there?

12        A.   I was told that the people in Cerska were starving and that the

13     people who were there could no longer live there.  However, our army did

14     enter Cerska.  In Cerska, they found cattle, not a single cow but many.

15     They also found other resources.  They concluded that the people of

16     Cerska had looted the surrounding Serb villages, at the same time sending

17     out information that they are starving to death.  Of course, it was all

18     incorrect.

19             When Mr. Karadzic asked me about it, I conveyed that information

20     to him and he must have used it somewhere.  When it comes to Cerska, that

21     is definitely true because it was confirmed to me on several occasions by

22     some officers who had gone there.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let's change tack yet again.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need document P3808 in e-court,

25     please.  We're interested in the heading.

Page 25519

 1        Q.   Professor, since there seems to have been many exchange

 2     commissions in place at the time, there was the central commission for

 3     prisoner exchange as well as civilian exchange.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   It concerns the 28th of October 1994, as we can see from the

 6     document.  What kind of prisoner are we talking about here, if you know?

 7        A.   I would not comment upon individual cases that surfaced

 8     sporadically, but it is well known that all those kept in prisons were

 9     citizens who had committed unlawful acts and were thus imprisoned.

10             Next, I know that there were some cases when civilians were

11     imprisoned.  However, I do know of some instances when we reacted

12     immediately and disbanded such locations.  Hence, we made a distinction:

13     If the term used was "prisoner," they need not necessarily be criminals

14     but people who committed unlawful acts.  The other people involved were

15     simply civilians who were free to go home or to the other side.

16             I just wanted to add something about this commission, although it

17     continued its existence after my departure.  Often times, those

18     commissions changed names.  You will find it in different places.

19     However, more or less, their task was always the same.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the answers you're eliciting are all

21     rather general and vague.  And as you know, the Chamber has heard about

22     people detained in prison facilities and whether they were civilians or

23     whether they were criminals.

24             Now, these general statements do not add very much to the very

25     concrete information the Chamber has received in evidence presented in

Page 25520

 1     earlier stages of this trial.  Therefore, I would encourage you where

 2     we're looking at documents on specific moments, specific situations, to

 3     elicit more than just, "It may have happened this, and then we took

 4     action.  We do not know, we do not know when, we do not know what action

 5     was taken."

 6             What we have before us are rather concrete documents.  Could you

 7     keep that in mind that the Chamber is best assisted by concrete

 8     information rather than by statements of a more general nature.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, you heard what the Chamber is

11     interested in.  Right at this moment, can you recall any specific

12     examples when there were attempts made to imprison civilians and when you

13     intervened in order to put a stop to it?

14        A.   There were several instances when we intervened.  I think it was

15     in Rajlovac once, then in Trnovo also once.  Next in Banja Luka as well

16     as some other municipalities.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We demanded to be told the reasons

19     why those people were being imprisoned.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take them one by one.  Rajlovac.  You said

21     there you intervened where there had been civilians imprisoned.  How many

22     civilians were imprisoned there and when was it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I recall, it was in 1993.

24     I may be wrong, but I recall about a dozen civilians within a greater

25     prison population whose place was not to be there.

Page 25521

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they men?  Were there women?  Were there

 2     children?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, neither women nor children.

 4     Men for the most part.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  What action did you take?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What we did was we requested why

 7     they were being imprisoned and they were released.  The same happened in

 8     Banja Luka.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When did it happen in Banja Luka and about how

10     many --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in Banja Luka it

12     happened in late 1993 or early 1994.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  How many civilians being imprisoned there?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall a figure.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Are we talking about a few individuals?  Are we

16     talking about tens, about hundreds?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  When we received such

18     information, it always involved a small number of people or individuals

19     who were in prisons and yet should not have been.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  This Chamber received also evidence about larger

21     numbers, and you said, when confronted with those, that it was all

22     exaggerated.  I think 10.000 were mentioned for Butmir KP Dom.  The --

23     apparently, the cases you are talking about are about small numbers,

24     whereas the Chamber also received information about larger numbers.  Do

25     you have any example of larger numbers of civilians being in prison?  And

Page 25522

 1     where and what action you took?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall such large numbers.

 3     As for Butmir, that there were 10.000 civilians there in prison, well, I

 4     know the building.  There is no way one could fit them all in.  Not even

 5     close.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  How many could you fit in?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  In any case,

 8     I know the size of the building, and it is my estimate that this figure,

 9     this many people could not be placed there.  There is simply no way.  If

10     the number is correct, they must have been out in the open.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you mean if they would all have been there at

12     the same time, they would have to be in the open and not housed in the

13     facility itself?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know whether the civilians held in Butmir

16     prison were kept in the open or not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, they were not.

18     That is why I said that there was no room on the premises and that they

19     could only have been in open air.  As far as I know, they were not held

20     in the open.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the basis of that knowledge?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I base it on my presumption that we

23     would have been informed of 10.000 civilians in Butmir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know how long the civilians stayed in Butmir

25     prison?  Did they stay there for a week, for three weeks, four weeks?

Page 25523

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know absolutely.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, whether 10.000 were spread over what

 3     period of time, you also do not -- you would not know?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't.  As for the figure

 5     itself, I don't believe it's true.  You can check it.  And please do.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That is clear.

 7             Yes, Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you as well.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, you said on page 18, you made a

 9     distinction if the term used was "prisoner."

10             "They need not necessarily be criminals but people who committed

11     unlawful acts."

12             How am I to understand that?  People who were not criminals were

13     in detention and if so, on which basis, please?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as a rule, and I won't

15     discuss exceptions, but all those who were in prisons, well, there must

16     have been information that they had done something against Republika

17     Srpska or its population.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that a legal foundation for imprisonment?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.  I'm not a

20     lawyer.  I am only discussing practice.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were referring to your own position when you

22     made the distinction between the two groups.  You said:  "We made a

23     distinction between criminals and those who committed unlawful acts."  I

24     would like to know the basis of this distinction you made.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps there was a

Page 25524

 1     misunderstanding.  Criminals were always under the law and they were

 2     imprisoned.  However, there were also people who were put in gaol when

 3     they committed some kind of misdemeanour or infraction and then they were

 4     placed in gaol.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it your position that, and you had been

 6     prime minister at that time, it is lawful to put somebody in a prison

 7     where there is no allegation that they have committed crimes but did

 8     other things which are not crimes?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't make in a distinction.

10     I did not consider that.  In any case, the people involved in it were

11     familiar with the law and acted accordingly.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  No further questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would it be true for children and women as well?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under all of our rules, women and

15     children were not imprisoned and could not have been found in gaols.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they accommodated in Butmir prison?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of that.  I don't

18     know of children and women being held in Butmir.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Branko Lukic.

21             We'll take a break.  The Chamber has taken some time.  At the

22     same time, if you allow me to say, Mr. Lukic, again.

23             Mr. Lukic, you may have understood from the questions we are

24     putting to the witness what kind of concrete information this Chamber

25     would like to receive rather than general statements, because going into

Page 25525

 1     the concrete makes clearer to us what are presumptions so as if it would

 2     have been different we would have been informed.  That's a different kind

 3     of knowledge as knowledge of personal observation, et cetera.  And that's

 4     for the Chamber important to know what the evidence is about, what the

 5     basis for it is.  Would you please keep that in mind.

 6             We take a break.  The witness may follow the usher.

 7             We would like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 10 minutes to 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be brought

13     in, I'd like to deal briefly with the associated exhibits with

14     Witness Vujasin.

15             The Chamber notes that on the 7th of August of this year the

16     Defence indicated it intends to tender 31 associated exhibits to the

17     Rule 92 ter statement of Mihajlo Vujasin.  The Chamber notes that two of

18     these documents are already in evidence as P922 and P4281, which then

19     leaves 29 associated exhibits, which is still considerably higher in

20     number than what the Chamber prefers.  The Chamber, therefore, invites

21     the Defence to consider reducing the number of associated exhibits by,

22     for example, by tendering some of these documents with the witnesses --

23     with the witness during his examination-in-chief.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we prepared for

Page 25526

 1     that, so we radically reduced our witness list, and so I believe that we

 2     will put forward a maximum of 17 documents.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Still quite a number, but let's move on at this

 4     moment.

 5             Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, we are back again.  You are a lawyer

 8     and you obviously have different understanding -- you're not a lawyer --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   -- so you obviously have a different understanding of crimes,

12     [In English] and criminals.  [Interpretation] Thus, someone who did not

13     report their taxes, would that person be a criminal?

14        A.   Well, these kind of things were not even considered during the

15     war.  A criminal is more completely somebody who stole, who committed

16     killings, who looted, who took things, who raped.

17        Q.   And somebody who caused a car accident and killed somebody, would

18     that be a criminal as far as you were concerned?

19        A.   No.  You could consider that a person who had committed a serious

20     offence for which they would be held responsible.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Prekrsaj, it's misdemeanour.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you --

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Professor, you said --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers].

Page 25527

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   -- prekrsaj.  Let's move on.  You said that we were too soft

 3     towards women.  Women can also commit murder and they would end up in

 4     prison for that.

 5        A.   Of course.  But this is rare.  There was a large number of people

 6     who did things like that that we couldn't get to, but in any case it was

 7     our position that women, children, the elderly, and those who were not

 8     armed and who did not commit anything that could make them liable under

 9     the law, of course, as a rule, these people were protected.  I'm not

10     saying that there were no individuals who violated this principle.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'm sorry for bothering you about these legal

12     matters.

13        A.   Well, no, that doesn't matter.  But may I add something?  When

14     the war began in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, we had a surge of

15     people coming forward of doubtable moral.  They did all kinds of acts,

16     offences, and they were not all from Bosnia and Herzegovina or from

17     Republika Srpska.  We had a lot of problems with people like that, of

18     dubious morals, and I'm sure you are aware of that.

19        Q.   Thank you, Professor.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P4008, please.

21        Q.   Professor, yesterday you were asked about this document dated the

22     3rd of October 1994.  The document was signed by

23     Major-General Zdravko Tolimir.  We can see in the first paragraph of the

24     document the agreement that was reached is mentioned.  The agreement

25     discuss humanitarian convoys that have made part of the agreement.  The

Page 25528

 1     same agreement also refers to medical evacuations from Gorazde.  The same

 2     agreement also talks about helicopter transport of a Muslim delegation

 3     from Gorazde to Sarajevo.  Evidently, this is a more complex agreement

 4     than just a purely exchange agreement.  It's evident that Dragan Bulajic

 5     was involved in the agreement.  He is referred to in the last paragraph

 6     of the document.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  If we could just go to another page.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] In this instance, Dragan Bulajic is exchanging

 9     civilians.  He's giving civilians; is that correct?  Can you see that

10     from this document?

11        A.   I read the document.  I've heard of the agreement, but I was not

12     the prime minister at the time.  I personally think that it was a good

13     agreement.  And as for the mention of civilians, well, they were all

14     civilians more or less, with some possible faults whereby a number of

15     them was detained.  But as for such a high number of civilians being

16     detained, well, especially because I am familiar with the situation in

17     Konjac, I know how things came about there.  So I did hear of the

18     agreement.  I was not prime minister at the time.  But I believe that it

19     was a good agreement all in all.

20        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at document D632,

22     please.

23        Q.   Professor Lukic, this is the presentation of the programme and

24     the make up of the government before the assembly, and this was presented

25     on the 19th of January 1993.  My colleague, Mr. Traldi, on transcript

Page 25529

 1     page 25445, said that he was going to ask you three things, and then he

 2     first referred to pages 1 both in the B/C/S and can the English version.

 3     Paragraph 3 states that the statehood is being asked for for the Serbian

 4     people.  Did the Serbian people already have statehood in the former

 5     Yugoslavia and in former Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 6        A.   Yes, it was Yugoslav statehood.  All of us who lived in

 7     Yugoslavia had that statehood.

 8        Q.   After the breakup of Yugoslavia, did others, Muslims, Croats,

 9     have to ask for a different statehood than the one they enjoyed in the

10     former Yugoslavia?

11        A.   Yes, they did, because some of them urgently wanted to renounce

12     the Yugoslav statehood.  Croats created their own statehood, but they

13     denied that statehood to the Serbs.  However in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

14     as you can see, we were left with the BiH statehood, but each of the

15     entities also had their own statehoods.  And we know about Serbia.

16        Q.   This programme that you presented, did it dispute the statehood

17     of Croats and Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18        A.   No, no.

19        Q.   Then transcript page 25446, lines 8 to 10, there is a question

20     and an answer when my learned friend Mr. Traldi asked you about other

21     Serbian states.  What did you mean, the Krajina and Serbia?

22        A.   I meant the Krajina and Serbia, but of course the true state is

23     Serbia.

24        Q.   And when you were presenting the programme in January 1993, were

25     there already any special links between a part of Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 25530

 1     controlled by Croatian and Muslim forces with Croatia?

 2        A.   These links existed ever since the beginning of the war, and the

 3     war began with those connections in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the first

 4     place.  I don't need to go into all the different forms of it.

 5        Q.   And then on transcript page 25446, lines 11 to 12, my learned

 6     colleague Mr. Traldi asked you to look at page 5 of the document in the

 7     English version.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And we will ask to do the same.

 9     Page 4 in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   Here the document at the top of the page beginning with, "In the

11     last two years many Serbian families from Bosnia and Herzegovina,

12     Slovenia and Croatia have been left without their homes and hearths.

13     This government must immediately take care of their accommodation and

14     permanent settlement."

15             At the end of the paragraph, it says:

16             [As read] "We have a number of municipalities with very low

17     population density."

18             And then Mr. Traldi asked you on page 25446, lines 20 to 22, and

19     then your answer begins on line 23.  It says that the constant

20     displacement of displaced Serbs in the territory of your -- under the

21     responsibility of your government was something that was occurring

22     constantly.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I will -- I will read from the transcript.

25             MR. TRALDI:  That's all I was going to request.

Page 25531

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps that's better, yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  My mistake.  I was trying to rush.

 3        Q.   "Q.  Now, permanently resettling displaced Serbs in territory

 4     under your government's control was part of your programme as you set it

 5     out to the assembly; right?"

 6                  "A.  That is correct."

 7             [Interpretation] Let me just ask you this, Professor:  Was this

 8     project ever implemented?  Yesterday you spoke about rich and poor

 9     municipalities.  Was this ever implemented in practice?

10        A.   It was not possible to implement it.  It was not implemented in

11     the middle of war to permanently settle those displaced.  That is just a

12     nice wish but it wasn't possible.

13             Sir, I just wanted to say three things.  I was asked when I was

14     elected prime minister what my programme would be.  My programme would be

15     a rule of law, state, the economy, and the front lines.  And so my

16     programme, the entire programme, actually, is imbued with these three

17     principles.  And this is all that I wanted to say.  I just wanted to say

18     that I said this when I was giving my first address once I was elected

19     prime minister-designate.

20        Q.   I just wanted to ask you about something that you just said.  The

21     desire to settle border areas of Republika Srpska, was that at the same

22     time a wish to strengthen the front lines?

23        A.   There was nothing to use for strengthening the front lines.  We

24     always wanted to strengthen the front lines, that is correct, but it was

25     always done differently.  It wasn't done by using refugees who were

Page 25532

 1     unprepared both physically and mentally to embark on such a war.  This

 2     was done in a different way.

 3             You heard me say yesterday that I had to tell Mr. Ostojic, "For

 4     God's sake, man, we don't have those billions now and we will not have

 5     them in peacetime either," and so on.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Next you were asked about criminal investigations,

 7     and it was presented to you that you were biassed and that you were only

 8     interested in investigating crimes against Serbs.  Through this line of

 9     questioning, the Prosecutor wanted to show that you, as the

10     prime minister, as well as the government as a whole, and this is

11     actually the position of our Defence, that you only focused on the

12     welfare of Serbs and that you were not interested in the other two

13     peoples in Republika Srpska.

14        A.   [Overlapping speakers].

15        Q.   Please, I have not completed my question.  I will show some parts

16     from this same document.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 6 in the English and 5

18     in the B/C/S.  We're interested in the paragraph beginning with,

19     "Regardless of how vehemently our enemies..."  It is the last paragraph

20     in the English and the second paragraph in the B/C/S.  In the English

21     version, we'll have to move over to the next page.

22        Q.   There you say:

23             "Regardless of how vehemently our enemies insist on continuing

24     this war, we have to insist upon the obligations this assembly has taken

25     over by adopting the declaration on the establishment of peace."

Page 25533

 1             Professor, was this just camouflage or did you officially present

 2     this to the Serbian assembly as part of your platform?

 3        A.   It was our position, definitely, and we did not think that

 4     continuing the war would bring any good to anyone.  As for the refugees,

 5     Muslims, and Croats, those who fled went elsewhere.  Those who remained

 6     had their apartments and houses and they were often in trouble because

 7     there were difficulty in them -- their receiving humanitarian aid.  Some

 8     municipalities simply would not distribute such aid to them and we had to

 9     react.

10        Q.   Specifically when did you intervene, since you mention

11     humanitarian aid?

12        A.   In Novo Sarajevo.  When I arrived in Banja Luka, I know that also

13     some others intervened there.  I know that citizens, ordinary citizens

14     also reacted to it.  They said that people who were entitled to a pension

15     should receive it irrespective of ethnicity, and those entitled to

16     receiving humanitarian aid should be treated the same.  That was a more

17     general position of all and that is what we stood for.

18        Q.   Very well.  We have a document on the list of documents we have

19     tendered which would corroborate that.  As for the VRS, when you

20     presented your programme, was it in favour of peace?

21        A.   It absolutely was.  I know that for several reasons.  I'm

22     particularly familiar with the army position when tens upon tens of

23     thousands of central Bosnia Croats were supposed to traverse Mount Vlasic

24     to reach the lower part of the Bosna River and on to Banja Luka.  Those

25     Croats from Vares, Olovo, and Kakanj were also allowed to go through

Page 25534

 1     Sokolac and Pale and the entire eastern part of our territory to move to

 2     their territory in Stolac.  Without our armed forces would not -- it

 3     would not have worked.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  There was some agreements concluded between the Croat

 5     and Serb side at the time concerning the cessation of hostilities.  What

 6     was the position of the Muslim side?

 7        A.   Well, we drafted a very fair agreement with the Croats.  We freed

 8     all prisoners, all-for-all, irrespective of who was held in those

 9     prisons, and we gave signals for the Muslim side to join us.  Mr. Prlic

10     and I were frankly in favour of that as well as some other people.

11     However, they did not want to do that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The next topic you discuss, and it ties in with the

13     previous sentence.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In the English version it begins

15     with, "This means ..." This is the right page.

16        Q.   Let me read it out.

17             "This means that we must persistently and patiently look for

18     solutions to our common exploitation of water, electric power, roads, and

19     so forth, the care for patients in medical institutions, the regulation

20     of the status and exchange of prisoners, the use of documentation

21     indispensable to pensioners and other citizens when claiming entitlements

22     stemming from work relations and so forth."

23             Professor Lukic, who did you have in mind when you say "common"?

24     Did you have only in mind the Serbs or all ethnicities?

25        A.   All ethnicities.  One cannot divide water, forests, and other

Page 25535

 1     such things.  A civilised society cannot be organised on any side unless

 2     the use of such resources is approached jointly.

 3        Q.   I will continue reading from this paragraph.  In presenting your

 4     programme, that is to say the future of the RS government to the RS

 5     Assembly, and as far as I understand, it was only populated by Serbs at

 6     the time, the assembly that is, you say the following:

 7             "Already today we must begin creating conditions so that citizens

 8     who have left their homes because of war, because they did not feel safe

 9     and felt their property was threatened, once permanent peace has been

10     established, can return to the territory of Republika Srpska.  We must

11     guarantee to all citizens of other ethnicities all rights under the

12     Constitution and laws.  We have taken these obligations upon us and we

13     have to fulfil them."

14             Professor, on that occasion, did you only have the Serbs in mind

15     or all of the ethnicities residing in Bosnia?

16        A.   It never even occurred to me to refer to the Serbs alone.  I

17     referred to the nationals of Bosnia and Herzegovina or rather the

18     nationals of Republika Srpska who were there at the time as well as the

19     return of those who left, in order for them to return safely and be able

20     to exercise their rights just like any other citizen.

21             Counsel, let me add this:  Republika Srpska did the most in that

22     regard when it comes to the return of refugees.  Just look at the figures

23     of how many refugees returned to the federation.  You will soon realise,

24     if you did so, that we were the best in implementing this goal in

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 25536

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we end up, Mr. Branko Lukic, in speeches

 2     again without any details on matters not asked about, which would serve

 3     well, perhaps, in a political debate, could you please more strictly

 4     guide the witness in answering the questions.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, we'll probably deal with specifics and

 6     numbers with our democratic expert.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  I'm not against.  But we did better

 8     look at the numbers.  If we don't have the numbers and if we do not know

 9     what to look at exactly is -- is not of great assistance to the Chamber.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, have you received support by members

12     of the government for your programme?  For this programme that you

13     presented to the RS Assembly, did you receive the support of government

14     members?

15        A.   First of all, it was a draft programme.  As you well know, a

16     draft is created first when putting together a programme.  Once it was

17     all ready, we consulted and presented it to President Karadzic and those

18     most senior in the armed forces as well as some other experts for whom we

19     believed could be of assistance.  In other words, the programme as a

20     whole received support from the assembly as well as in the course of

21     drafting from a wide circle of people who had the occasion to read it and

22     later support it.

23        Q.   Were there any army representatives at the assembly?

24        A.   Any assembly session was attended by army representatives,

25     especially when this programme was being adopted.

Page 25537

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did anyone ask you to change the government programme

 2     in this part that we have read out here?

 3        A.   No.  The programme was adopted as a whole.  There were no votes

 4     against it whatsoever.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We will switch topics now.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have D638 next.

 7        Q.   On the 6th of April 1993, you were rather critical vis-ā-vis the

 8     army.  As we can see here, you informed the Main Staff of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska - that is to say, the body headed by General Mladic - as

10     well as the command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps that the government of

11     Republika Srpska was informed of looting, killing, setting fire to

12     buildings, and rape in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo committed mostly

13     by members of the Army of Republika Srpska.  Yesterday you explained that

14     you reacted whenever there were any signs of this or any information.

15        A.   Well, there was some information.

16        Q.   You've already explained that yesterday.  Thank you.  I wanted to

17     ask you the following:  Regarding this and similar documents, did anyone

18     ever order you or asked you to -- or kindly asked you to hide things if

19     you ever learned of a crime or any irregularity?

20        A.   God forbid.  You know me and you know that I'm not a person who

21     would easily be manipulated, especially when it comes to crime, rape,

22     looting, et cetera.  Among other things, you saw that I discussed looting

23     with Mr. Mladic.  Not so that we would boast but so that we would each do

24     something within our remit.

25        Q.   What was the reaction to this and similar caution by

Page 25538

 1     General Mladic?

 2        A.   It was a long time ago and I can't recall every detail, but I can

 3     say that any suggestion or proposal on our part to this effect was

 4     something they objected to.  They always said that they would see to it

 5     that they would do something.  I could frequently observe that the army

 6     acted responsibly in that regard in introducing order in society, so to

 7     say.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have P6733 MFI on the screen.

10        Q.   You were shown this letter yesterday.  It's in English.  That is

11     why it was only marked for identification.  In the letter signed by

12     Mario Mobilo, some allegations are spelled out against the Serbian side.

13     Who did Mario Mobilo represent on the 9th of January 1993, if you know?

14        A.   I don't know, but I know that very often he would act

15     irresponsibly, like a prosecutor, even though he was not a side in the

16     conflict regarding the Serbian side and was aware of crimes on his own

17     side.  He did not mention any of those and spoke without any restraint

18     about the other side.

19        Q.   Mr. Traldi asked you yesterday if you had heard of accusations

20     that there were 60.000 Muslim women who had been raped.  Now I'm going to

21     ask you this:  Did you hear later and do you know that it was established

22     that this was pure wartime propaganda?

23        A.   Yes, I know that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Just for the sake of the record and the clarity of

Page 25539

 1     the witness's answer, I don't think I referred to a number.  I referred

 2     to the text referring to mass rapes on the second page of this document

 3     and -- so I don't think my question's been presented accurately.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   At the beginning of the war, did you hear of charges that there

 7     were 50- or 60.000 Muslim women who were raped by Serbs in the first few

 8     months of the war?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  But I heard also Silajdzic's statement that there

10     were 250.000.  A foreign journalist heard with a man from our area that

11     there were 5.000 raped women at the stadium in Tuzla.  They set off there

12     and then halfway there he was told not 5.000 but 1.000.  And then when

13     they came close to Tuzla, he was told, well, it wasn't really that many.

14     And then finally when they got there, it turned out that there were some

15     10 or 15 women who had been raped and not the thousands that were

16     mentioned before.  So this is just pure insinuation.  Actually, it's

17     propaganda that was supposed to prompt people to feel sorry for Muslims

18     and to condemn the evil Serbs.

19        Q.   And are you aware that during the first few month of the war, it

20     was said that some 250.000 to 300.000 Muslims had been killed?

21        A.   Well, I did wonder where they managed to find so many Muslims in

22     that area when there weren't even that many there.

23        Q.   Did you hear later that this turned out to be propaganda as well?

24        A.   Absolutely, yes.  And it was not just that, there were many other

25     things that were part of the wartime propaganda.

Page 25540

 1        Q.   You talked about the return of refugees and that you only meant

 2     the refugees -- the return of Serb refugees.  This was something you

 3     discussed with Mr. Traldi.

 4        A.   This is something that we cannot prove.

 5        Q.   Just one moment, please.  Is it correct that towards the end of

 6     the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbs were being arrested in Serbia

 7     and being brought to Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   This could have been individual cases.

 9        Q.   All right.

10        A.   But I didn't hear of any mass arrests in that sense.  I don't

11     know about that.  I know that a number of recruits were rounded up.  I

12     don't know if this occurred on a major extent.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic -- perhaps I first ask the witness:  When

14     you said "I didn't hear of any mass arrests in that sense," were you

15     talking about mass arrests of Serbs or were you talking about mass

16     arrests of Croats or Muslims?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no Croats or Muslims

18     there enough for any kind of mass arrests.  This was -- this had to do

19     with the Serbs from Republika Srpska.  This is who I was talking about,

20     Serbs from Republika Srpska who were being arrested there.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems to be that you are so focused on what

22     apparently seems important to you that -- no, let me just see.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, my question was in relation to Serbs --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  To Serbs.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 25541

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's closure.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  And maybe I wasn't clear.  Maybe I wasn't clear

 3     enough.  But what I wanted to explain.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But Mr. Traldi was on his feet.

 5             Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I was.  I wasn't sure how the arrests of persons in

 7     Serbia, particularly conscripts, arose out of my cross-examination.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  My intention was to show voluntarily return of

 9     anybody to Vares or to war zone in Bosnia.  Because the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, when talking about arrests that are not

11     voluntarily returning but --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly.  Exactly.  There was none on any sided.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There was none on any side.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  But that should be my next question.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, was there a mass return of Serbs to

17     Republika Srpska during the wartime years, refugee Serbs from Croatia,

18     from Bosnia and Herzegovina?  How many them would return to the combat

19     zone in Bosnia and Herzegovina before the end of the war?

20        A.   Whenever they were able to avoid the combat zone, they would

21     avoid it.  So only when they didn't have anywhere else to go would they

22     remain in the combat zone.

23        Q.   So neither Serbs nor Muslims nor Croats would return to the

24     combat zone?

25        A.   No, not then.  As a rule they did not return.  Perhaps some

Page 25542

 1     individuals did but otherwise no.

 2        Q.   Can we just look at three documents briefly that were shown to

 3     you today by my colleague, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need 65 ter 31188.  I don't see

 5     that it was tendered, so the document doesn't have a P number.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a document under seal, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Ah, that's why maybe.  Okay.  Then shouldn't be

 9     broadcasted.  Should we go to a private session?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know what --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Ah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- what questions you want to put about it.  But

13     perhaps out of an abundance of question we should --

14             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, it should be dealt with only in private

15     session.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we turn into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25543

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We're waiting for the

25     document.  There are both versions in English and B/C/S.  That's good.

Page 25544

 1     We need page 2.

 2        Q.   Here you can see in the seventh paragraph with the words,

 3     "Personally ..." And the paragraph says the following:

 4             "'I personally estimate that when the war is finished maybe 10 to

 5     15 per cent of the non-Serb population will stay and live in the Serbian

 6     Republic,' admits Vladimir Lukic."

 7             And then it goes on to say:  "The self-styled Bosnian Serb

 8     prime minister."

 9             Is this correct?  That you were the self-styled prime minister of

10     Bosnian Serbs?

11        A.   Well, I couldn't have appointed myself the prime minister of

12     Republika Srpska.  This was done upon the proposal of President Karadzic.

13     I was elected by the assembly.  So I'm not even going to comment on that.

14        Q.   And would you consider this text as objective or partial -- or

15     impartial?

16        A.   This is the same thing as that thing that Mr. Bulatovic says.  I

17     don't think I would like to comment too much on this.  All I would like

18     to say is that really this is no way to go about it.  It's not a good

19     thing to do.

20        Q.   As for the rest of the sentence, I don't know whether that refers

21     to you or not, because it says:

22             "Witnesses say between 40 and 50 Muslims are expelled every few

23     days by Bijeljina's state commission for the exchange of civilian

24     population headed by Vojkan Djurkovic a Major in the Serbian Tigers, the

25     most notorious of the old Serb paramilitary bands."

Page 25545

 1        A.   I cannot remember that, but if that came to us, we definitely

 2     immediately reacted.  That was the first thing.  This was abolished.

 3     That could not have continued to operate.  And let me tell you this:  We

 4     had many self-styled people who were involved in exchanges and many other

 5     things so that it was not easy to catch all of them and to deal with all

 6     of them.

 7        Q.   Professor, I promised that I would leave some time towards the

 8     end to my colleague Mr. Traldi, so that would be all that I have for you

 9     at this time.  Thank you very much.  I don't know if I have left enough

10     time for my colleague.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you -- I think you stayed well within your

12     estimates, Mr. Lukic, which is appreciated.

13             Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I'd need just a little bit less than ten minutes

15     probably, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we will continue and take the

17     break after that.

18             Mr. Traldi.

19             MR. TRALDI:  First, the document that we have on the screen.

20     Could we go back to the first page, please.

21                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

22        Q.   And I'm just going to ask you to confirm that you can see the

23     date 14 October 1993; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes, that should be the date.  Yes.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P2047.

Page 25546

 1     This is a code cable sent by Mr. Akashi.  I'm going to be interested in

 2     the third page in both languages, which is an attachment to the code

 3     cable.

 4        Q.   So just now you said you would have immediately reacted if you'd

 5     known what Mr. Djurkovic was doing.  Now here we read a letter from

 6     Nicholas Morris of the United Nations HCR to President Karadzic, and it's

 7     dated the 5th of September, 1994.  It reads:

 8             "Already this month, over 1300 members of the minority

 9     communities in the Bijeljina and Janja area have been forced to leave

10     their homes by your authorities and expelled towards Tuzla.  Similar

11     departures continue from the Banja Luka region to Croatia:  almost 1.000

12     in the last two weeks.  The expulsions from the Bijeljina area are

13     combined with the exaction of significant sums of money (reportedly by a

14     man known as 'Vojkan')."

15             And I'll stop there.  I'd put to you first that that Vojkan is

16     the Vojkan Djurkovic referred to in the article from the previous year

17     that we just saw.  That's true, isn't it?

18        A.   I assume that that is the same person.  I don't know that there

19     is another Vojkan.  But I personally don't know him.

20        Q.   So I put to you what this shows is that no one reacted

21     immediately.  And in fact, a year after the interview that Mr. Lukic

22     showed you or the article that Mr. Lukic showed you, Mr. Djurkovic was

23     still expelling people from Bijeljina.  That's true, isn't it?

24        A.   I don't know.  You have shown me a letter to Karadzic of the 5th

25     of September.  I was not prime minister at that time.

Page 25547

 1        Q.   All right.  Then I'll turn to a different topic.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 16580 be brought to the screen.

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4        A.   I would like to add something to your question.  At the time, I

 5     was in Banja Luka.  When the Serbs were expelled from 12 Krajina

 6     municipalities, one of the soldiers with his wife and another friend --

 7     actually, while I was at university, he wanted to expel my wife from her

 8     apartment.  So at that time, many Serbs in Banja Luka, not just the

 9     Muslims and Croats, were exposed to threats, and I was a witness of that.

10             At one point in time, I had the impression that there were more

11     refugees in Banja Luka than the citizens of Banja Luka.

12     Precisely because --

13        Q.   Sir -- [Overlapping speakers].

14        A.   -- there was these 12 municipalities --

15        Q.   -- you've gone far beyond the scope of my question.

16             This document refers to minority communities.  In Bijeljina and

17     Banja Luka, Serbs were the majority; right?  Simply yes or no, please.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Then I'm going to turn to another topic.

20             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have 65 ter 16580.  And this will be a

21     document from the JNA 5th Corps on the 11th of May 1992 entitled:  "An

22     Order to Take-over War Booty."

23        Q.   At temporary transcript pages 16 and 17 today, General Mladic's

24     counsel asked you about war booty, and you testified that "private

25     property could not come under the term war booty in any case."

Page 25548

 1             Now in this document, directing your attention first to point 1,

 2     it refers to making a list of all motor vehicles from war booty.  Do you

 3     see that?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Then at point 2 it says:

 6             "Take the rest of the war booty (women's jackets, plastic

 7     canisters, refrigerator parts, etc.)  From the 30th Partisan Division to

 8     Major Zdjelar in the Kozara barracks for safe keeping."

 9             So these items are being treated as war booty by the JNA;

10     correct?

11        A.   Probably so.  But I am not familiar with these details.  I only

12     know what we talked about, war booty in general.  Now, whether someone

13     took a jacket and where they put them is something I don't know.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6741, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Now, can P6722 be brought to our screens.

19        Q.   While it comes up, you were asked by the Chamber and the Defence

20     whether civilians were detained in Bosnian Serb prisons.  Do you recall

21     those questions?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Now, here we have a prisoner exchange report from the

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina State Committee for Exchanging Prisoners of War.

25             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 4 in the English and 3 in the

Page 25549

 1     B/C/S.

 2        Q.   We're looking at a list of persons that the Serb side did not

 3     release in an exchange.  I just want to direct your attention to number

 4     11, Hanka Kustura.  And it says:

 5             "According to the Serbian side, she died at the age of 101 while

 6     in the Rogatica-Rasadnik prison."

 7             So my question to you is simply were you aware that civilians,

 8     including elderly women were being detained in Rasadnik prison?

 9        A.   I wasn't aware of that and I'm not even aware of the existence of

10     a prison in Rogatica, in Rasadnik.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Finally, could the Prosecution please have

12     65 ter 02395.  This is the transcript of the 41st Session of the

13     RS Assembly.  And I'll ask for the bottom of page 50 in the English and

14     46 in the B/C/S.

15        Q.   Now, Minister Brdjanin, one of the two ministers in charge of the

16     refugee programme, is speaking.  And I want to direct your attention to

17     the third sentence in his remarks.  He says:

18             "First of all, gentlemen, you cannot fool me that you believe in

19     the greatest wonder of the world such as that Brdjanin could participate

20     in a process of return of Croats and Muslims."

21             Now, none of your refugee ministers ever said no one could

22     believe they would take part in a process of return of Serbs to the

23     Republika Srpska, did they?

24        A.   I cannot discuss this because I don't remember it.  If it's in

25     the document, it is probably true.  I think, though, that you were able

Page 25550

 1     to observe in your trials here who Brdjanin is and who is Ostojic and

 2     what things they said.  I guarantee you, and any responsible official in

 3     Republika Srpska would confirm it, that not a single proposal of theirs

 4     was implemented anywhere.

 5             Given the fact that Ostojic is no longer among the living, I

 6     didn't want to discuss him.  And Brdjanin is where he is.  He did have a

 7     fault, though, because once he was at the lectern, he simply could no

 8     longer control himself.  That's the kind of person he was.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

11                           Questioned by the Court:

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one question for you.  You've, on almost all

13     the questions which were relevant for either the Defence or the

14     Prosecution, you immediately jumped to things that were done to the

15     Serbs.  You very much emphasized that you are better than anyone else in

16     returning other -- in returning refugees to Republika Srpska.  You said a

17     lot of good things about your performance.

18             Do you at all admit that serious crimes, sometimes massive

19     crimes, were committed by Serb units, police forces, army forces, killing

20     sometimes a large number of people?  Do you say this is also exaggerated?

21     It is also -- it's not true, it's propaganda.  And let me just, because I

22     asked the parties to be concrete, let me take one concrete example.

23             This Chamber heard evidence about events at Koricanske Stijene.

24     Do you say that's propaganda or is it, in your view, true that these type

25     of crimes were committed, and I'm not saying that similar crimes are not

Page 25551

 1     committed by others, but those type of crimes, massive crimes, were

 2     committed by Serbs?

 3        A.   As for Koricanske Stijene, I heard about it upon my arrival in

 4     Banja Luka.  Bear in mind that I had lived in Sarajevo for 37 years.

 5     During the war, I did not go around Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I could only

 6     draw conclusions on the basis of the things I heard.

 7             As for the existence of crimes on our side as well, I never

 8     denied that.  It is interesting, though, that only Serbian crimes are

 9     being studied and referred to, leaving aside the other parties.  I don't

10     even want to start discussing the number of crimes which took place in

11     Sarajevo.  I know of crimes against Muslims being committed in Sarajevo,

12     but of even greater number of crimes against Serbs.  Unfortunately, there

13     is no war without crime, especially not in our region where hatred

14     originates from a long time ago.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You again emphasize that -- how important it is

16     apparently for you is to strike a balance between who did what, and you

17     claim that no attention was paid to crimes committed by others than

18     Serbs.

19             Now I leave that alone.  You have not directly answered my

20     question.  Koricanske Stijene, close to 200 victims, executed, as we

21     heard evidence of, I'm not saying that it happened, but we heard evidence

22     of that and in other cases the matter was dealt with extensively.

23             Do you agree that that happened or I asked you whether you

24     considered this propaganda or exaggeration or whether you accept that -

25     and I take that as an example - happened?

Page 25552

 1        A.   You chose the right example.  I said that it was only in

 2     September 1994 that I heard about Koricanske Stijene.  Unfortunately, it

 3     is true.  I inquired about it and I received precise responses from the

 4     people who heard or saw it.  Hence, there is nothing for me to add or

 5     subtract.  And I don't want to take anything away, either.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for answering my question.

 7             Yes, Mr. Lukic, you have one or two questions.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Just two questions.  And first we need P6741.

 9                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, it is the document that discusses war

11     booty.  Were vehicles from the TAS factory considered war booty?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I expected you to put any question

13     triggered by my questions.

14             MR. LUKIC:  No, no.  The questions I have --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's your witness cross-examined by --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- you re-examined the witness extensively, and I

18     think the war booty then in the final round was perhaps dealt with by

19     Mr. Traldi, but you're now entering in a third round which is not the

20     common thing to do.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Then --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And so --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Then I will refrain.  I don't want to open a new

24     practice.  I was probably miscalculating my turn.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 25553

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  It was short and I think we can deal even with

 2     these --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And of course you ask these to be on the screen; of

 4     course.  We'll critically read what kind of motor vehicle it was and et

 5     cetera.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So we'll carefully consider the document, but I

 8     think there is no --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  And I apologise for this confusion.  Thank you, Your

10     Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There is no compelling reason for a third

12     round.

13             This then concludes your evidence, Professor Lukic.  I would like

14     to thank you very much for having come a long way to The Hague and for

15     having answered all the questions that were put to you, sometimes even

16     more than that, questions put to you by the parties, questions put to you

17     by the Bench.  I wish to you a safe return home again.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the parties will soon come up with

21     the -- with any remaining associated exhibits.  But the Chamber would

22     prefer not to deal with them at this very moment because that would

23     enhance the chances that the next witness could conclude his testimony

24     before the weekend even before 2.00 today.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Hopefully he will.  We can have only 15 minutes

Page 25554

 1     break, and I can tell you that I don't have any additional questions to

 2     him.  I'm just read --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No additional questions.  So just cross-examination

 4     which was estimated at 30 minutes?

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  We expect cross-examination to be

 6     quite short.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And then it -- yes.  Then we'll take a break.  But

 8     not, Mr. Traldi, after I've heard what you would like to address.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Just if we could mark for identification the last

10     document used with the witness, 65 ter 02395, the assembly session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6742 marked for

13     identification, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And it keeps that status for the time being.

15             Now, before we take the break I also have another small item on

16     my agenda but which we'd have to deal with in private session.

17             So for the audience, we'll be in private session for not more

18     than one or two minutes.  We'll then return in open session and take a

19     break.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25555

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and will resume at half past 12.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.08 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the next witness to enter the

13     courtroom.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I see both Mr. Jeremy and Mr. McCloskey present.

16             Mr. Jeremy, it will be you who will cross-examine the next

17     witness?

18             MR. JEREMY:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Yes, that's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Marjanovic, I take it.  Before

22     you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.

23     The text is now handed out to you.

24                           WITNESS:  DJORDJE MARJANOVIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

Page 25556

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 4             Mr. Marjanovic, you will first be examined by, although it will

 5     be pretty short, if I understand Mr. Lukic well.  You'll first be

 6     examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find him to your left.  Mr. Lukic is

 7     counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 8             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

11        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Marjanovic.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   For the record, please tell us your first and last name.

14        A.   Djordje Marjanovic.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Only it's without -- yes.  Without "I."

16             Can we have 1D1723 in e-court, please.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you want to have the statement of the

18     witness on the screen, the 92 ter motion was filed confidential --

19             MR. LUKIC:  It shouldn't be broadcasted, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Shouldn't be broadcasted.  That's --

21             MR. LUKIC:  But basically it's only because second page, and I

22     think that Mr. Jeremy already told me that he is not going to need that

23     page.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say the cover page and the last page

25     there will -- but if the -- if it's filed confidentially, then all the

Page 25557

 1     attachments are confidential automatically and we should strictly adhere

 2     to that in court as well, unless at any point in time you will file a

 3     different version.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I'm fine with the -- proceeding this way.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, do you see your statement in front of you?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Did you indeed at some point provide a statement to

10     General Mladic's Defence team?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Do you see your signature on the screen before you?

13        A.   I do.

14        Q.   Given the fact that in the transcript we only have your answer

15     record as "I do," whose signature is that?

16        A.   Mine.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the last page of the

18     statement.

19        Q.   Whose signature is it on this page?

20        A.   I see it.  It is my signature on this statement that contains

21     nine pages, and the date is the 30th of June 2014.

22        Q.   Thank you.  The details you provided to us, are they truthful and

23     accurate as recorded in the statement?

24        A.   Yes.  The details and the gist of the statement is true.

25        Q.   If I put the same questions to you today, would you, in

Page 25558

 1     principle, provide the same answers as you did when you gave this

 2     statement?

 3        A.   Yes, my answers would remain the same and the gist of the

 4     statement would as well.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would just tender this statement into

 6     the evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D640 under seal, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  D640 under seal admitted into evidence.

11             Mr. Lukic, since there are portions of this statement which

12     apparently are of concern as far as the public character is concerned,

13     for the parties, Mr. Jeremy knows, apparently, what the sensitive issues

14     are.  I do not know.  So if I would have any questions, I wouldn't know

15     whether I would --

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it's -- Your Honour, it's just paragraph 3.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 3.  Only --

18             MR. LUKIC:  On second page, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Only paragraph 3.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear to me.  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I would just, with your leave, Your

23     Honour, read a short summary.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Djordje Marjanovic testifies about the situation in

Page 25559

 1     Sarajevo immediately before the war broke out.

 2             Djordje Marjanovic testifies about the lining up of Juka's unit

 3     and he depicts their uniforms and arms.  He also claims that Juka's unit

 4     was funded through by the Tow Service.

 5             He remembers the killing of the Serb police officer in the police

 6     station Novo Sarajevo in early 1992.  Juka's unit was involved in that

 7     killing.  After the attack, barricades were set up around Sarajevo.

 8     After the setting up of barricades, Muslims intensified checking the

 9     citizens' IDs, which imposed the segregation of Serbs and limited their

10     movements.

11             Djordje Marjanovic testifies about the subordination of Juka's

12     paramilitary units and the official units of the special police of the

13     Ministry of Internal Affairs.

14             In Han Pijesak, he joined the battalion of the military police of

15     the protection regiment where he stayed until 23rd March 1993 when he

16     became General Mladic's personal security guard.

17             In September 1992, he was wounded in the operation in Zepa and he

18     claims it was an action planned to destroy the General Staff of VRS.

19             In his testimony, he speaks in detail about the general's humane

20     and positive treatment of prisoners of war and non-Serb population.

21             Djordje Marjanovic claims that the attempted assassination of

22     General Mladic was done by sniper 12.7-millimetre, shot by a member of a

23     French Battalion, on which occasion a cousin of Kenjic Mlado was killed.

24             Marjnovic was not General Mladic's security guard during the

25     Srebrenica July 1995 operation.  He was on a 10-day leave and concluded

Page 25560

 1     that if there had been any plan for the Srebrenica July 1995 operation,

 2     he wouldn't have been granted leave.

 3             That was short summary and we do not have any questions for this

 4     witness at this moment.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Only, I see, Mr. Marjnovic wants to tell something.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Marjanovic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just one minor

 9     correction.  Mlado Kenjic was not killed.  He was seriously wounded.  And

10     there was a cousin of his with him who is also related to General Mladic.

11     I think his last name was Mandic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, I think that I read the cousin of Kenjic Mlado

13     was killed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apart from that the statement is the evidence

15     and in the statement it says that he was seriously wounded.  So therefore

16     that is well understood.

17             Mr. Marjanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.

18     You'll find him to your right.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the

19     Prosecution.

20             Mr. Jeremy.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Marjanovic.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   Now I'd like to start by clarifying the dates that you left

Page 25561

 1     Sarajevo in 1992.  Looking at paragraphs 18 to 21 of your statement, it

 2     appears you left on around the 10th of May 1992; is that correct?

 3        A.   I don't know the exact date but it was in May when the JNA was

 4     withdrawing from the B and H.  And then we went to Serbia, specifically

 5     from the Rajlovac barracks via Olovo, Bratunac.  Half the unit went to

 6     Sombor and half of them went to the Zarkovo facility in Belgrade.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let's move now from Sarajevo and I'd like to go to your

 8     role in the close protection unit of General Mladic.

 9             Now, in the last sentence of paragraph 39 of your statement,

10     referring to your period of leave during the Srebrenica events, you

11     mention a person called Puhalo.  Now, you're referring to Branislav

12     Puhalo; correct?

13        A.   Yes, correct.

14        Q.   And he was your commander; correct?

15        A.   [No interpretation].

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat his

17     answer.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer.  The

19     interpreters couldn't hear it.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My immediate superior from whom I

21     received my orders.

22             MR. JEREMY:

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now in July 1995, you accompanied General Mladic to

24     the check-point at Boksanica just outside Zepa; correct?

25        A.   Yes, correct.

Page 25562

 1        Q.   And it's also correct that you have previously seen footage of

 2     General Mladic boarding buses of civilians passing through this

 3     check-point at Boksanica; correct?

 4        A.   I am not sure what you mean when you say footage.  Actually, the

 5     question is not clear to me.

 6        Q.   I'll try and be clearer.  Do you recall an interview with the

 7     Office of the Prosecutor in March 2012?

 8        A.   I had the interview in Banja Luka in the OHR offices.  I remember

 9     that.  I don't remember the exact date, but ...

10        Q.   During that interview, do you remember being shown some -- a

11     video recording of yourself and General Mladic getting on and off buses

12     at this check-point in Boksanica?

13        A.   I don't remember if they showed the video recording or not, but I

14     know that the lady who was conducting the interview with me said that I

15     was there in that footage and that I hadn't really changed sense.  It's

16     possible that there is that footage.  And I explained to her then, and I

17     can explain it to you, if necessary, why I was entering those buses, what

18     the reason for that was.

19        Q.   Well, we'll shortly get to that footage.  I'll actually show you

20     the clip.  But before I do, it's the Prosecution's position that this

21     event of the buses of civilians leaving or passing through the Boksanica

22     check-point was on the 26th of July 1995.  Do you agree with that?

23        A.   I don't know the exact date, but it was when it was.  I mean,

24     it's not a problem.

25        Q.   But towards the end of July 1995.  Does that accord with your

Page 25563

 1     recollection?

 2        A.   When the -- this occurred when the action around Zepa took place.

 3     That's when it happened.

 4        Q.   And it was after the events in Srebrenica; correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to show you a portion of that footage now.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I'll shortly ask Ms. Stewart to play

 8     P1147, V number V009268.  This is a portion of the Srebrenica trial

 9     video.  Now, I believe the video only needs to be played once.  It's in

10     evidence.  We have a transcript.  And it's subtitled in English.  And

11     because the original is in B/C/S and we have the English subtitles, I

12     also don't think we need to receive translation so that we're able to

13     listen to the original words and hear their tone.  So I don't think we

14     need English and B/C/S translation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So we can just rely on what we see -- and would the

16     transcript then be complete?  Because the then the text does not appear

17     on the transcript of this hearing.

18             MR. JEREMY:  It's already in evidence, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

20             MR. JEREMY:  I think --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If we have it -- you'll forgive me for not knowing

22     exactly --

23             MR. JEREMY:  Of course.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- where and how we've seen it before.  And was it

25     then put on the record of these proceedings that the text, so that it's

Page 25564

 1     somewhere, and I would appreciate if you would know when that was, on

 2     what page of the transcript, so that those who later read this transcript

 3     will find their way to the text where it is translated.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So if you would provide that as quickly as possible,

 6     that would be appreciated.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  I'll get that reference.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will have a look at the video.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  So we'll start the video at 04 -- 4 minutes, 50

10     seconds.

11             If you could play that please, Ms. Stewart.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. JEREMY:  Now, we've stopped this recording at 6 minutes, 58

14     seconds, and we're going to skip forward now to 8 minutes and 20 seconds.

15             And, Your Honours, for the part that we have just looked at, the

16     corresponding transcript is e-court page 112 for English and B/C/S.

17             If we could play from here, please.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. JEREMY:  Ms. Stewart, if you could stop the video there,

20     please.

21             Your Honours, it seems that this slight of the footage is

22     slightly degenerated.  Now, we'll get that fixed.  We weren't sure if it

23     was going to play or not.  We do have a plan B and we've got the DVD

24     recording of this section.  So, I'd like to play that DVD recording now.

25     And this DVD recording is of the trial video timing 08:20 to 09:31.  It's

Page 25565

 1     the identical footage.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say that in e-court it has been

 3     damaged one way or the other and that's --

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, I think it's a technical issue --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  -- that can be resolved.  Just not right now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if this causes you any problems --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We have no problems.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- please let me know.  No problems.

10             Then we'll proceed as you suggested, Mr. Jeremy.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, the corresponding pages in e-court for

13     the English and the B/C/S of the section that we just watched are pages

14     114.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated].

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking.

17             MR. JEREMY:  I'll now ask Ms. Stewart to go back to minute -- 5

18     minutes and 7 seconds in the trial video in Sanction.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

21        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, do you recognise the three men on the screen

22     before you?  And if you do, could you please identify them going from

23     left to right as you see them on the screen before you?

24        A.   From the left to the right, it's General Gvero.  The one in the

25     middle, I cannot remember his name, but I think that he was a commander

Page 25566

 1     in the Zvornik Brigade.  And General Krstic.  Perhaps it's Pandurevic.  I

 2     can't remember the exact name.

 3        Q.   For the man in the middle, if I was to tell you it's Vinko

 4     Pandurevic, would that refresh your recollection?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  I think that he commanded the Zvornik Brigade.  Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, I'd like to show you a portion of General Mladic standing on

 7     the bus.  Because of the instability of this recording, I think we'll go

 8     to a still of the portion that I want to look at.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  So that's 65 ter 31208, please.

10        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, do you recognise the man standing to the left of

11     General Mladic?

12        A.   Yes, that's me standing at the door.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  "To the left" meaning --

14             MR. JEREMY:  To --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- for those who are viewing this photograph, to the

16     right at the door entrance of the bus.  That's what you are referring to.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Marjanovic, in paragraph 35 of your statement, you say that

21     in 1993, you witnessed General Mladic say the following to refugees who

22     were leaving Srebrenica.  You state:

23             "You said, he said, 'I am General Ratko Mladic.  Some of you know

24     me.  Some don't.  We did not need this.  Do not join the army.  I wish

25     you a safe trip.'"

Page 25567

 1             Now, I understand that he said that to people who were leaving

 2     Srebrenica in 1993.  In the next paragraph, paragraph 36, you state:  "He

 3     would say the same at Zepa."

 4             Now, Mr. Marjanovic, having just seen the clip and having seen

 5     you standing next to General Mladic, it's clear that he said more than

 6     that at Zepa, didn't he?

 7        A.   Well, this is footage from Zepa, not from Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   I understand.  In paragraph 35, you're referring to Srebrenica

 9     and you refer to comments that Mladic made to refugees leaving

10     Srebrenica.

11             In paragraph 36, you say that he made the same comments to those

12     persons leaving Zepa.  And my question is very simply:  It's clear that

13     actually he said a fair bit more to those persons leaving Zepa; correct?

14        A.   I don't really know what you mean.  He said what he said and

15     that's been shown in the footage.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you just let me try to ask you it in a

17     different way.

18             If you say that he said the same in Zepa as he said in

19     Srebrenica, then he must have said more in Srebrenica than you quote

20     because we hear what he says in Zepa, and if that's exactly the same as

21     what he said in Srebrenica, then in Srebrenica he would have said more as

22     well.  You agree with that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  As for Srebrenica,

24     you could only see that from the media, from that footage.  I wasn't in

25     Srebrenica, so I really cannot speak about that.  But I can speak about

Page 25568

 1     Zepa.  That's not a problem.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Do we then understand you well that what he

 3     said in Srebrenica, you have no direct knowledge of that, that you

 4     learned that from the media, and that what General Mladic may have said

 5     in Zepa, you know that because you were there and you heard it with your

 6     own ears?  Is that how we have to understand your testimony?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if we can --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  -- give the witness his statement, I think he's

11     confusing 1993 and 1995.  So if we clarify about this incident from 1993,

12     whether he was present.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I leave that then to Mr. Jeremy.  He started

14     the comparison, to say so, and I just tried to clarify what you

15     apparently wanted to ask him.

16             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And as far as I'm

17     concerned, the statement is clear.  I'm satisfied with the witness's

18     answer to my question.  I'd like to tender this -- this still, and

19     otherwise I have no further questions for this witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, the still would receive number?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6743, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P6743 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If there is nothing else --

25                           Questioned by the Court:

Page 25569

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I would have one question for you.  In your

 2     statement in paragraph 38, you are referring to an attempted

 3     assassination of General Mladic.  However, I do not see any point in

 4     time.  Could you tell us when this was?

 5        A.   I cannot remember the precise time.  I know it was summer.  The

 6     man who was seriously wounded, Mladjen Tomic [phoen], he could give you

 7     the exact date because he was involved in the incident.  I can tell you

 8     what I know about it if you need me to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm mainly interested, first of all, on when

10     it happened.  Approximately you said it was in summer.  Do you remember

11     what year?

12        A.   It's possible that it was 1994.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It was before the Srebrenica events a year

14     before that?

15        A.   That is correct.  Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then you say the -- General Mladic was in

17     Belgrade at the time.  Your source of knowledge of that is what exactly?

18     How do you know that?

19        A.   I was at our base.  He left the base to go to Belgrade.  That was

20     the official information, that he had gone to Belgrade.  We remained

21     where we were.  There was no need for us to go with him.  And then there

22     were two or -- one or two of his relative from the Belgrade, and I think

23     they asked for transport to Vojkovici, I think.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clear to me you stayed at the base and

25     General Mladic was reported to have left for Belgrade.

Page 25570

 1             Now, what is the basis for your knowledge on what happened in

 2     Lukavica?  You say it was the members of the French Battalion of UNPROFOR

 3     that opened fire.  How do you know that?  You were not there, were you?

 4        A.   That's right.  I was given the option of going with the driver to

 5     escort them, but that it was not necessary.  So they decided to go there

 6     by themselves.  When the vehicle was near the Butmir airport, it was

 7     struck by sniper --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  All I want to know is where you gained all that

 9     information.

10        A.   From the driver, Kenjic, who was wounded in that incident.  After

11     that General Mladic and I, a couple of days later, went to see him in

12     hospital.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That answers my question.

14             I have no further questions for you.

15             MR. LUKIC:  If you -- if I may, Your Honour, I would just like to

16     clarify potential confusion with paragraph 34 and 35.  I would just --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  Please do so.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And my questions were only necessary, Mr. Lukic,

20     because any time reference is missing.  I've got no idea.

21             MR. LUKIC:  We couldn't --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Time reference is --

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- put time references to his mouth.  We recorded

24     what he remembers so --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, about the assassination, the attempted

Page 25571

 1     assassination, there is no time reference whatsoever.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We'll have Mr. Kenjic testifying here in the future.

 5     So I hope we will be able to clarify it with him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 30, please.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Please go to paragraphs 34 and 35 in your

10     statement.

11        A.   I have them.

12        Q.   Were you present in 1993 when the event you describe in

13     paragraphs 34 and 35 happened?

14        A.   Yes, I was.

15        Q.   Thank you.  We have no further questions.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank everyone.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No further questions.

18             Mr. Marjanovic, this concludes your testimony.  It was relatively

19     short, but, of course, most of the evidence you've given is in your

20     statement.  So therefore being here only for a very short time doesn't

21     mean that there is only very little evidence but we find it in your

22     statement which was put before the Chamber.

23             I would like to thank you very much for having answered the

24     questions that were put to you by the parties, by the Bench, and I wish

25     you a safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

Page 25572

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that the parties expected that we

 4     would hear the evidence of this witness and no further evidence today?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's what we --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- intended for today.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I do have a brief preliminary which I

10     would like to put on the record at the appropriate time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We can deal with that.

12             But it's clear in view of the developments yesterday, Mr. Lukic,

13     it's fully understandable that you thought by changing the sequence of

14     the examination that it would be this witness, the last to be examined

15     this week.  That's fully understood and accepted.

16             Mr. Jeremy, you would like to raise an issue.

17             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.  The Prosecution advises that it

18     has received the B/C/S translation for P6717, which is 65 ter 31184,

19     which was MFI'd through Witness Milenko Indjic on the 3rd of September

20     2014.  The translation has been uploaded into e-court and the document

21     ID 06849804BCST.

22             If the Defence are in agreement, the Prosecution would request

23     that the court officer be instructed to attach the translation to the

24     original document and let it be admitted.  Thank you.

25             MR. LUKIC:  We have no objections to that proceeding.

Page 25573

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Registrar, you are hereby instructed to

 2     attach the B/C/S translation 65 ter number 31184 to Exhibit P06717 in

 3     e-court, which was MFI'd.  After this has been done, P6717 is admitted

 4     into evidence.

 5             And if there is any problem with the translation, Mr. Lukic, you

 6     know that within 48 hours you can address the Chamber on the matter or

 7     early next week, I would say, under present circumstances.

 8             Any other matter remaining?  Then we adjourn for the day but not

 9     only after I have expressed again the Chamber's appreciation for the

10     understanding by the parties that we cannot sit tomorrow and for having

11     changed their schedule for those purposes.  And we will resume Thursday,

12     the 16th of September, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

13             One second, please.

14                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If I said Thursday, I made a mistake.  The day

16     starts with a T as well, but it is Tuesday, the 16th of September.  We

17     stand adjourned.

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.18 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day

20                           of September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.