Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25574

 1                           Tuesday, 16 September, 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             No preliminaries.  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

11     Then can the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

12             Meanwhile, I -- yes, Mr. Weber.

13             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I just note for the

14     record that the witness did receive a 90(E) admonishment previously in

15     the Karadzic case, and we believe it would also be appropriate in the

16     present case.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It always depends on what kind of questions you will

18     put to the witness.  If we come at a point where you consider, either

19     Defence or Prosecution, it would be wise to issue such a warning or

20     rather explain to the witness what his rights are, then we'll do that.

21             Meanwhile, in relation to Witness Indjic:  Four notebooks were

22     handed over to the Registry by Witness Indjic on the 5th of September of

23     this year.  They have been given to Chamber staff.  The Chamber has not

24     read any of the notebooks.  Rather, it prefers that copies are made

25     available to the parties and that the parties then make any further

Page 25575

 1     submissions as necessary.

 2             Accordingly, the Chamber instructs the Registry to make copies of

 3     the notes and share those copies with the parties, and the Chamber will

 4     not read them for the time being and will then await further submissions

 5     from the parties.

 6                           [The witness entered court]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Vujasin, I presume.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good morning.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vujasin, before you give evidence the Rules

10     require that you make the solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to

11     you.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

13     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS: MIHAJLO VUJASIN

15                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vujasin.  Please be seated.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vujasin, you will first be examined by

19     Mr. Stojanovic.  You find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel

20     for Mr. Mladic.  You may proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation:  Good morning, Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vujasin.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   I would like to ask you to speak slowly for the record and give

Page 25576

 1     us your name and surname.

 2        A.   I'm Mihajlo Vujasin.

 3        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, at one point in time, did you give a statement in

 4     writing to the Defence of Radovan Karadzic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 7     take a look at 1D04072 in e-court.  That is its 65 ter number.  Could we

 8     please take a look at the last page of this document.

 9        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, is this your signature?  And the date on the

10     left-hand side, was it written in your own hand?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes.

12        Q.   When preparing for the procedure in courtroom today, I told you

13     about this and now I'm going to ask you.  When you took this solemn

14     declaration here in this courtroom today and if you were to be asked the

15     same questions as those contained in this statement, would you answer the

16     same way?

17        A.   I was fully aware of all of that.  I would say the same things,

18     yes, today.  I have to say, however, there are a few grammatical

19     mistakes, but on the whole it remains as it had been presented.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like

22     to tender the statement of Witness Mihajlo Vujasin into evidence, 1D04072

23     being its 65 ter number.

24             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, in general we don't have an objection

25     to the admission of the statement.  However, I do not know yet which

Page 25577

 1     associated exhibits are going to be tendered, and there are quite a lot,

 2     and that could impact parts of the statement, so if we could leave it

 3     MFI'd until we know what associated exhibits are being tendered exactly.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any problem with that?  Of course,

 5     many paragraphs lose all probative value if the associated exhibits are

 6     not admitted, but perhaps it would be not too bad to, for the time being,

 7     MFI this statement so that we can deal with it in a consolidated way.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

 9     Observing the instructions you provided, my plan was to reduce the list

10     of exhibits so we're only going to tender nine documents along with this

11     statement; that is to say, those that are derived from this witness

12     statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4072 receives D641.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D641 is marked for identification.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

18     would like to read out Mr. Mihajlo Vujasin's summary or rather the

19     summary of his statement.

20             It says that as a professional military man, he was serving at

21     the air base in Rajlovac when the war broke out.  After the JNA left the

22     BiH, he held many responsible duties from deputy commander of the

23     Rajlovac Brigade up until the 16th of September, 1992, when he took over

24     as chief of engineering in the command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and

25     he remained in that position until the end of the war.

Page 25578

 1             In his statement, he speaks of the strategy of the SRK for

 2     Sarajevo pointing out that his role was a defensive one except for

 3     certain improvements in tactical positions from time to time.  The task

 4     was the blockade of the 1st Corps of the BH Army and rendering it

 5     impossible to have it used at other front lines in the BiH.

 6             The BiH Army was in that area with its units at dominant features

 7     as related to Rajlovac, and the position of his units which was used for

 8     constant activity against military and civilian targets within Rajlovac

 9     and the surrounding Serb towns and villages.

10             Neither he nor his brigade ever received any orders in writing or

11     orally from higher commands to attack civilians in town or means of

12     public transportation either using snipers or any other weapons, although

13     they knew that civilian facilities were being abused for military

14     purposes by the units of the BH Army.

15             Humanitarian aid in Sarajevo passed through Rajlovac as well and

16     was not stopped in any way.  Also, the gas supply for the city of

17     Sarajevo partly went through the area of the Rajlovac Brigade and that

18     also continued.  He never received orders for that to be stopped.

19             He testifies about being present at the Nisici when the air bomb

20     was being tested and also he says that he has no concrete knowledge about

21     the characteristics and use of air bombs.

22             He speaks about the attitude of the VRS towards paramilitary

23     formations in the area of responsibility of his brigade, and he claims

24     that the position of the command of the VRS towards the existence of

25     paramilitary units was negative and they had orders to have these

Page 25579

 1     formations either expelled or placed under a single command.

 2             Finally, he testifies about the VRS, specifically his unit, and

 3     their relations with the civilian authorities in Rajlovac saying that

 4     these relations were not very good.

 5        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, now I'm just going to put a few questions to you

 6     that are based on this statement.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] While we still have D641 on the

 8     screen, I would like us to focus on paragraph 5 of this statement --

 9        Q.   -- where you say --

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Actually, in B/C/S could we move

11     on to the next page?  In English it's fine because I'm just going to be

12     referring to the first sentence in paragraph 5.

13        Q.   In paragraph 5 you say that:

14             "The recruitment of personnel for the air force base war units

15     had been carried out on a voluntary basis and two units had been formed

16     by Serbian volunteers and one by Muslim."

17             I'd like to ask you what you meant by this in your statement when

18     you say that this was carried out on a voluntary basis, that was how

19     personnel were recruited?

20        A.   It's very hard.  Very hard question, very hard answer.  But it

21     would boil down to the following:  First of all, the army as an army, it

22     has its peacetime composition and it's wartime composition, but in war

23     units are manned through the Ministry of Defence; that is to say, through

24     municipalities, through regular channels.  When mobilisation is carried

25     out, some people did not respond.  Primarily it was Muslims.  And quite a

Page 25580

 1     few Serbs also had a negative attitude.  They were saying, "You're only

 2     calling us up and there are no Muslims.  So they are preparing for war."

 3     And this was already March, April, the beginning of 1992, that is to say

 4     the beginning of the war.  I remember that full well, these call-up

 5     papers.

 6             A few people did come, Muslims, and we talked to them.  There was

 7     no training anymore.  This was just a conversation.  And we said, "What's

 8     up?"  And they said, "We have no approval.  Whatever is happening is

 9     negative."  Even the command knew about this, Belgrade knew about this,

10     the Main Staff knew about this, and the army knew that it was impossible

11     to man units through regular channels.  And then there was this document

12     that was adopted to do this on a voluntary basis.

13             What does that mean?  Whoever comes is then manning these wartime

14     units.  Specifically, the tasks are those like those of the former JNA --

15        Q.   I'd like you to ask you to speak a bit slower for the transcript

16     and also if you could be a bit more specific.

17             Just a bit slower, please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not only to be slower in speaking but to make a

19     pause between question and answer because the interpreters need more

20     time.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, I will stop you there for a second.  I would like us

23     to be a bit more specific here.  According to what you just said, did

24     people turn up from among the Bosniaks or the Croats who joined the JNA

25     at that time on a voluntary basis?

Page 25581

 1        A.   We were not able to form the JNA troops so then the decision was

 2     made to proceed on a voluntary basis, and then what happened is that the

 3     units who were from that area, they would come to join the army if the

 4     army was staying there.

 5             At that time we didn't know if the troops would be staying there

 6     or not.  There was no decision.  So for the most part you had Serb units,

 7     members of the units who were Serbs.  But they were not the ones either

 8     who were there according to the wartime disposition.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I really must pay attention to the transcript so

10     please understand why I'm making these brief pauses.

11             Let us now look at paragraph 21 of your statement, D641, where

12     you speak about handing over control of the airport to the UN, the

13     airport in Sarajevo.  And you say that you were in the position to hear

14     that General Mladic ordered that not a single bullet be fired on the

15     airport and that the airport be surrendered to the UN, and that this

16     decision was taken in a negative way by the people.

17             Could you please tell us in a couple of words, first of all, why

18     did the people understand this in a negative way, the people in the area

19     other than the fact that they were staying -- or they would remain in a

20     double encirclement?

21        A.   When the blockade was lifted, when the people were divided,

22     practically, after that it was not possible for either of them to leave

23     their areas of responsibility.  So what is negative there?  The negative

24     thing is that that area of the territory from Hadzici to Ilidza, Vogosca,

25     Rajlovac, and Ilijas was cut off.  Those people found themselves in an

Page 25582

 1     encirclement, they were in an enclave and were not able to survive in

 2     that area unless they could communicate freely in trade, in economic

 3     terms, so with the hand-over of the airport that possibility was ruled

 4     out.  Once the airport was handed over, the people then were in that

 5     position and they didn't want to accept that.  So it had a negative

 6     effect.  There were even rebellions against that.  The problem is that

 7     nobody asked those people anything from that area, not the president of

 8     the municipality or the senior officers of the army, so that was that.

 9     Then it was necessary to calm the people down and to get them to accept

10     this.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And when you said that General Mladic ordered that

12     even in spite of that not a single bullet ought to be fired, could you

13     please tell the Court when did you hear this?  Did you hear it directly

14     from General Mladic or did you have it conveyed to you?

15        A.   In the meantime, there was a meeting convened in Lukavica with

16     representatives of the army from that area expected to attend the

17     meeting.  I was at the meeting representing the Rajlovac Brigade, I think

18     there were about 20 or 25 of us there.  Among other things, the political

19     situation was discussed, what was happening, what the reasons were, and

20     the senior organs decided to hand-over the airport.  I did not agree with

21     that.  I thought that that was not a good idea.  But of course we had to

22     respect the decision of the government of Republic of Serbia that not a

23     single bullet could be fired at the airport, so we were in a unenviable

24     situation that we were placed in and were placed in the position that you

25     could not fire at anything that had to do with the airport.  And this

Page 25583

 1     caused a lot of problems.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at paragraph

 3     23 and could we please look at the next page in the English version

 4     because that part is --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, I'd like to get clarity on the

 6     question that you just put.  You asked the question whether he heard

 7     Mr. Mladic give this order directly, and he says he went to a meeting and

 8     the leaders of -- there was a meeting and the leadership decided on this

 9     decision.  And then he says that he felt he must respect a government

10     decision.

11             I'm not sure what -- he's not answering whether he heard this

12     from Mr. Mladic, or was it made by this meeting that was meeting there,

13     or was it made by the government and relayed to this meeting.  Can you

14     please clarify that.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  This is

16     precisely what I wanted to do and that's why I wanted us to look at the

17     next part of 23.  Very well, I will.

18        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, did you hear that directly from Mr. Mladic or not?

19        A.   At this meeting, there were no civilians present.  No civilian

20     organs.  It was just attended by senior officers, non-commissioned ones

21     or active senior officials, so I heard it from him personally.

22        Q.   And now could you please look at this paragraph 23 where you say

23     that General Mladic organised a meeting of all representatives of the

24     brigade in Lukavica.  You attended this meeting personally representing

25     the Rajlovac Brigade and you note the words that General Mladic uttered

Page 25584

 1     on that occasion.

 2             My question is precisely at that meeting that you refer to in

 3     paragraph 23, was there also any discussion about what you have just said

 4     that General Mladic said?

 5        A.   Yes, that did happen at that meeting.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now I'm going to ask you to look at

 7     paragraph 49, please.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is document D641.

 9        Q.   Where you say that you had information that Serb civilians were

10     not permitted to leave the city of Sarajevo.

11             Could you tell us in a little bit more detail what this

12     information was that you had?  Why were Serb civilians not allowed to

13     leave the city of Sarajevo which at that point in time was under the

14     control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   Well, that problem is a very complex one.  But actually, the

16     barricades that were placed at the checkpoints on the roads between Serbs

17     and Muslims, between the entrances and exits to the town, you had Serb

18     barricades and then Muslim barricades.  And then you had buildings,

19     people could not pass the barricades without problems or without any, let

20     us say, difficulties.  Serbs from Sarajevo could not do that due to -- I

21     know this because in Serb territory, specifically in my area, in

22     Rajlovac, women were left behind and the rest of their family was in

23     town, so they could not leave the town and go in this direction in any

24     way.

25             So, however, when the conflict escalated, then it got even worse.

Page 25585

 1     So it had not then, as we say, started to boil yet.  So this is what

 2     happened there, certain groups used this situation.  So for vast

 3     compensation in money they would let people go from the town into Serb

 4     territory.

 5             So, now, somebody comes, everybody hugs them, kisses them, and

 6     then they say how much did you pay for it?  That was a very high price

 7     that they would pay for it.  It was not an organised thing.  It was

 8     actually very difficult to communicate between the sides unless it was

 9     organised.  I tried to allow without any problems from our side to make

10     this possible, and later I had problems with all the civilian organs and

11     so on and so forth.

12        Q.   And what knowledge do you have as to the reasons why the

13     authorities, the Muslim authorities, did not permit this flow of civilian

14     citizens?

15        A.   I think that the main reason was for one side to be accused and

16     the other not.  We had a multi-ethnic situation here saying that we have

17     Serbs, Croats, and so on here, depending on the area of responsibility,

18     and then you would present that to the international community, that they

19     were the only ones that were in the right.  They tried to show that their

20     position was the only one that was proper and correct and no one else's,

21     so it was necessary to show the international community that they were

22     multi-ethnic.  So this turned out the way it did later, 1991, 1992,

23     everybody who came out did that under stress.  And they came out like

24     living skeletons.

25        Q.   Could we now look at paragraph 61 of your statement where you

Page 25586

 1     say -- when you're describing the relations with the civilian authorities

 2     during the period that you were in Rajlovac, that you had a bad

 3     relationship with the civilian authorities at the local level --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber is on his feet.

 5             MR. WEBER:  My apologies for interrupting, Mr. Stojanovic, but

 6     this was one of the paragraphs that actually the Prosecution had some

 7     concern about, and I think it would be most fair to alert Mr. Stojanovic

 8     to our concern before asking questions on it.  In this paragraph there is

 9     reference to a statement of a Jovo Bozic being shown to the witness, and

10     it appears unclear, actually, what the witness is referring to in the

11     text of the paragraph, paragraph 61.

12             I just want to alert the Chamber and the Defence that this

13     statement is an RS SDB statement taken on 17 December 1992, and it is

14     uploaded and available under Mladic 65 ter 10 -- excuse me 16018.  I just

15     wanted to put that on the record.

16             Thank you, Your Honours, and thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I think that

19     we will not have any problems in relation to that and that is why I would

20     like to present a document that I would like to address that on.  So I

21     don't think that there's any need to look at this document.  We take the

22     caution on board, unless you believe it's necessary.  I believe that

23     there's no need and I did go through this with the witness.

24             With your leave, Your Honours, I would continue.

25        Q.   So, sir, Mr. Vujasin --

Page 25587

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, it would be only fair to the

 2     Chamber and the opposing party that you put the right 65 ter number on

 3     the record in relation to this document, the right 65 ter number in the

 4     Mladic case.  I think this is your obligation.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  And I want to

 6     show the document from the case under the 65 ter number if I understood

 7     you correctly.  I do want to present that document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, I earlier then must have misunderstood

 9     you, that there was no need to show it to the witness.  But please then

10     proceed and take care that the 65 ter number which is valid in this case

11     is clearly on the record.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, and then before I put the

13     question, I propose that we look at that document, the 65 ter document.

14     Can we look at 1D04096.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's number -- I'm a bit lost.

16             Mr. Weber, you gave another number.

17             Now --

18             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- do we have this same statement twice in the

20     e-court system or -- because Mr. Stojanovic now comes with a --

21             MR. WEBER:  No, this appears to be a different document than the

22     one that I have down as being associated from the Karadzic case.  I do

23     not believe that this is a statement from Mr. Bozic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  This isn't -- Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell

25     us whether you are living under the impression that this is the same

Page 25588

 1     document as the document referred to in paragraph 61 of the statement or

 2     is it a different document.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't want to

 4     create any more confusion.

 5             This document in paragraph 61 marked as 65 ter number is from the

 6     Karadzic case.  We did not place it on the list of potential exhibits

 7     that we wanted to use in the Mladic case.  The document is not on our

 8     list.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But then I take it that you first are seeking

10     permission to have it on your 65 ter list, is that ...

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I'm not

12     planning to use the document at all.  It's not on our list, so I wasn't

13     even planning to use it with the witness.  I was going to use this other

14     document that speaks about the same issue.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you say you're not going to use it with the

16     witness and you put it on our screens, I mean what's -- it's rather --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is another one.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but when you talk about a document or the

19     document, could you always clearly indicate what document we have on our

20     screen at this moment, a document.  Is this the document that you said is

21     not on your 65 ter list?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The document that you have on

23     your screen is on our 65 ter list and has the number 1D04096.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And is this document referred to anywhere in

25     this statement as it was taken for the purposes of the Karadzic case?  Or

Page 25589

 1     is it not to be found anywhere in the statement?

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This document is mentioned in

 3     the first sentence of paragraph 61 of the witness statement.  However, it

 4     is not referred to.  It is the event itself that is referred to.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  One second, please.  One

 6     second, please.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you said the document is

 8     mentioned in the first sentence of paragraph 61 which is not true.  The

 9     first sentence doesn't mention any document.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry if I said document,

11     Your Honours.  I wanted to say event, the event that this document speaks

12     of.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you corrected yourself.  After you had said

14     that the document was mentioned, you then said it's the event itself.

15             Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, again, according to our checks, and

17     there were a lot of documents, and so if Mr. Stojanovic could maybe

18     confirm this would be appreciated.  I had it down, this document that's

19     on the screen, as being associated to paragraph 85 of the statement which

20     is towards the end.  And that's just the information that I have so ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, I have difficulties in

22     finding that in paragraph 61 an event is described, it's rather a

23     situation, I would say, than an event.

24             Second, Mr. Weber suggests to you that the document which you are

25     looking at at this moment may be the same as the document referred to in

Page 25590

 1     paragraph 85 of the statement of this witness.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct.  Also in

 3     paragraph 85 that gives comments on all the documents that the

 4     Karadzic Defence tendered, and my plan is to reduce that in accordance

 5     with the instructions that I have received.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You want to introduce -- well, we now know

 7     that the document which is on our screen now is corresponding with 1D8447

 8     in the Karadzic case and that you want to put questions to the witness.

 9     Please do so.  It would have been better to have done the same without

10     creating so much confusion.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, just for my own clarity, are we to

14     understand that 65 ter 17258 has been removed completely from the

15     evidence which is what you mentioned in paragraph 61?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.  We

17     haven't placed that document in our list and we do not plan to use that

18     document from the Karadzic case at all.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's mentioned in the statement, so are we

20     deleting it from the statement?  Thank you.  And are we to understand

21     then that 1D04096 is not the same thing as 16018 which was mentioned by

22     Mr. Weber?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe it is not the same.

24     It corresponds to --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that 16018 would correspond with the

Page 25591

 1     Bozic statement as referred to in paragraph 61, Mr. Weber.  That is

 2     now --

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You confirmed that.  That is now off the list, which

 5     means that the person of the statement starting with:  "I was shown the

 6     statement of Rajlovac SO president ..." et cetera, that that is -- should

 7     be the redacted because you are not using that document.  Therefore, all

 8     the comments on what the document tells us are without probative value.

 9             Therefore, Mr. Stojanovic, you would have to make a new version

10     of the statement.

11             Then we are now moving on.  You are showing to the witness the

12     document which is referred to in paragraph 85 and which was in the

13     Karadzic case known as 1D8447 and which is in this case known as 1D04096.

14     Please proceed.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you, Your

16     Honour.

17        Q.   So, Mr. Vujasin, we've corrected this misunderstanding concerning

18     numbers.  This is what I'd like to ask you now.  Please focus on this

19     first sentence of paragraph 61.  This is where you say -- actually, it's

20     not on the screen anymore.  But if you remember, you were saying that you

21     had poor relations with the civilian authorities at local level because

22     they had unrealistic expectations of the brigade and demanded more than

23     the brigade was able to do.  What was all of that about?

24        A.   First of all, may I say that the municipality of Rajlovac was

25     established quite late in February that year and it came to include

Page 25592

 1     certain territories.  Everybody wanted to be the boss in his own land.

 2             So, the unit that was formed belatedly was supposed to free the

 3     entire territory; that is to say, it should be free so that organs of

 4     authority could be established as deemed best.  However, this could not

 5     have been done overnight simply by using a pen and paper.  And now the

 6     authorities, Bozic and everybody else, Rajlovac was strong, economically

 7     strong because there were factories there, companies, 13, 14 state-owned

 8     companies --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

10     microphones be switched off.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  So a lot of these facilities

12     existed there and you just try to liberate the area where the

13     municipality was, and then the conflict would be over as far as they were

14     concerned.  So pressure was brought to bear against people who were in

15     Rajlovac, I mean women, children, refugees, to have this resolved, but

16     the main thing was to resolve Sokolje Brijesce, Brijesko Brdjo, Zabrdje,

17     that area.  I mean, that's included by the municipality and that is land

18     that belongs to this municipality, and this was unrealistic.  These were

19     unrealistic demands, and these unrealistic demands meant the use of

20     force, major sacrifices, major everything.

21        Q.   I really have to stop you here.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  For my clarity, sir, Mr. Vujasin, you said the

23     municipality was formed in February of that year.  Which year?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  1992.  1992.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25593

 1        Q.   Just briefly, did you have problems with members of your unit as

 2     well precisely because of that?

 3        A.   First of all, in the unit itself, I had problems.  The people who

 4     were there, I had problems with them.  And also with the municipality.

 5     When I say the municipality, the civilian structures of power, the SDS.

 6     Let's free this and then we're done.  So that called for major

 7     sacrifices.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   So I tried, I mean, not to meet their demands but according to

10     the situation, to preserve what we had.

11        Q.   In this document - and I would kindly ask you to take a look at

12     it.  It says, among other things, that a group of dissatisfied soldiers

13     asked for the dismissal of the commander of the Rajlovac Brigade?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Direct us where you are reading, sir.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Line 3 of this document,

16     Your Honour.  The second and third lines.

17        Q.   It says that they demanded the dismissal of the commander of the

18     Rajlovac Brigade, Lieutenant-Colonel Golijanin, and the Chief of Staff

19     Captain First-Class Mihajlo Vujasin.  Then the reasons are referred to

20     why this demand is being made to have them dismissed.

21             It says among other things, that soldiers were not protected and

22     that they were exposed on a daily basis to fire from Sokolje.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now could we please move on

24     to the next page in English.

25        Q.   This fire came from the Green Berets.  In a word, the mentioned

Page 25594

 1     group demanded that Sokolje be taken and cleansed as simply as possible.

 2             The reasons mentioned here, did they correspond to the problem

 3     that you refer to when speaking of your relations with the civilian

 4     authorities?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, that coincides.  That's correct.  So nothing

 6     was, I mean --

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Vujasin, I have no further questions for you.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And, Your Honour, I would now

 9     like to suggest that we admit a completely different abbreviated list of

10     exhibits.  So I would like to tender three maps that the witness marked

11     and that are marked as follows:  65 ter 1D03109, 1D03110, 1D04095.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it anywhere in the statement, Mr. Stojanovic?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, they have been

14     mentioned.  I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 22 of this

15     witness's statement in view of all of this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You mentioned three documents.  Could you tell us

17     where we find which document?

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] In paragraph 22, the document

19     1D8445 has been mentioned.  That is its Karadzic 65 ter number.  1D03110

20     would be its number in our case.

21             And then the document in paragraph 22 that is marked as 1D8445A

22     which corresponds to our document 1D04095.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And then there's still one missing.  Where's the

24     third one to be found?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The third one, let me just take

Page 25595

 1     a look.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I believe the third one is in paragraph

 3     4.  And the Prosecution has no objection to admission of the maps.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D8444 in paragraph 4 of the

 5     witness's statement.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And that corresponds with 1D03109.  Is that well

 7     understood?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It corresponds with document

 9     1D03109.  That's right, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, a simple "yes" therefore would have done.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, we have now the three maps.  Anything else you

12     want to tender?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a list, a list, a table of concordance?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Where is it?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Interpretation] Yes, the list that we provided

18     to the Prosecution as well in relation to the documents that we are going

19     to be using as associated exhibits when questioning this witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you provide it to Chamber staff?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this point, I have to admit

22     that I'm not sure.  This was done by the case manager.  I think the

23     answer would be yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We only received annex B to your 65 ter motion

25     with the associated exhibits as you pointed out and there we see also

Page 25596

 1     some 65 ter numbers from the Karadzic case.  But this is not really a

 2     list of concordance.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And do we know what list -- what numbers exactly --

 4     let me just ask -- one second, please.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, Madam Registrar shows me now a

 7     document with at the bottom, the date the 16th of September, 2014,

 8     whereas the Chamber has received a list which has some similarity but on

 9     which we find the date the 5th of September, 2014.

10             May I take it that the 16th of September list is the one you are

11     referring to?

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that that's right,

13     Your Honour.  And I think that in that list you have the information from

14     the Karadzic case, 65 ter.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm informed now that Madam Registrar, and that

16     explains the date on the bottom of it, has made a new printout.

17             When did you provide what list most recently, a list on which you

18     wish to rely and to whom did you provide that?  And perhaps you already

19     indicate to us how many documents are listed on that list.  So the list

20     you want to use, how many documents?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] There is a total of 32 documents

22     and there's the witness statement.  According to the suggestions we

23     received, I have reduced this and I am tendering a total of nine

24     documents from this list and I would like to highlight that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Where is the list of the nine documents you want to

Page 25597

 1     tender?  Or is there no such list?  Then make it very quickly --

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no separate list, Your

 3     Honour.  These nine are from this list.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Has the Prosecution received notice of which

 5     nine you wanted to tender?

 6             MR. WEBER:  I have the 32.  All I need to know is which are the

 7     nine, so if I could --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but this is --

 9             MR. WEBER:  -- narrow it down.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, already during your examination of

11     the witness, you used 25 minutes for questions and 16 minutes were wasted

12     with clarifying chaotic presentation.

13             Now, here more or less the same happens.  Apparently we have to

14     look from a document -- let's go through that document very quickly.

15             The first one you want to tender is -- I've seen the first two

16     1D03109, we have dealt with that one.  That's a map marked.  The next one

17     is 1D03110, that one we have dealt with as well.  And we have -- well,

18     what's the next one on your list you want to tender?  What's the next one

19     on this list you want to tender?  I know that there's a third one that

20     appears further down on this list.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Which one do you want to tender?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D04082.  That's its

24     65 ter number.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  82.  1D04082, is that -- that is the 65 ter number

Page 25598

 1     in the Mladic case or by the commander of the --

 2     Vogosca Operations Group?

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now where do we find this document in this

 5     statement?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The document is referred to in

 7     the statement in paragraph -- just one moment, please.  I'm going to tell

 8     you right away, Your Honours.  In paragraph -- in paragraph 74 of the

 9     statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you now know what we need.  We need

11     the 65 ter numbers under which the nine documents you want to tender are

12     uploaded in the Mladic case.  We need the corresponding 65 ter numbers

13     from the Karadzic case and the paragraph in which that document is

14     referred to by the witness.  And you produce that list within the next 20

15     minutes, I would say, we take a break, and would you please --

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not do it yourself?  Why do we have to insist on

18     this chaotic counter-productive way of proceeding?

19             We expect such a list in 20 minutes, without mistakes, containing

20     all the information I just referred to, and then we'll further deal with

21     the matter.

22             We take a break first after the witness has left the courtroom.

23             Would you please follow the usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

Page 25599

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 25600

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             Meanwhile, I use the time for the following.  It's about the

18     Prosecution using documents during the Defence case.

19             During the testimony of Milenko Indjic, the Defence complained

20     that certain documents used by the Prosecution during cross-examination

21     had not been disclosed or were not properly added to its Rule 65 ter

22     exhibit list.  This and the ensuing discussion can be found at transcript

23     pages 25154 up to 25164.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             The Chamber considers the matter to be resolved but further

Page 25601

 1     points the parties to a decision in the Stanisic and Simatovic case of

 2     the 26th of August 2011 where this matter is further analysed.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the

 4     witness?

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.  But before beginning, I just

 6     wanted to let the Chamber know that Mr. Stojanovic did communicate to me

 7     the eight documents -- actually, in addition to the statement, that being

 8     the ninth, that were being tendered, and I will then just, if it's okay

 9     with the Chamber, tender any additional documents during the course of my

10     examination.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will go through this list after the -- but

12     could you already indicate, Mr. Weber, whether there are objections to be

13     expected in relation to the documents now highlighted.

14             MR. WEBER:  No objections to the documents that are highlighted.

15     However, I will further discuss with Mr. Stojanovic, and I mention a

16     paragraph with respect to the statement that we may oppose because of the

17     absence of associated exhibits being tendered with it.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One correction I would like to put on the record.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, the witness statement which was MFI'd earlier

21     this morning, D641, has a different 65 ter number than you indicated in

22     your list.  The right number is 1D4096.  This is what we noticed by

23     Madam Registrar.  Could you please check that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And I do see that on the list now that we have the

25     statement of the witness twice, first on the first category, statement,

Page 25602

 1     and then again with the associated exhibits.  And there, as just

 2     indicated by Judge Fluegge, with the wrong 65 ter number which has now

 3     been corrected on the record and which you are invited to verify.

 4             Mr. Vujasin, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.

 5     Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution and you find him to your right.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vujasin.

10        A.   Good morning.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit 353, page

12     29 of the B/C/S original and page 28 of the English translation.

13        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be a 30 May 1992 entry from one of

14     General Mladic's notebooks concerning a meeting with unit commanders of

15     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I'll wait for this to come before you.

16             MR. WEBER:  If we could have page 29 of the original in the

17     B/C/S.

18        Q.   In this entry next to item number 2 on this page, we see your

19     name and it is noted that you are the commander of the 1st Lpbr in

20     Rajlovac.  Is it correct that this was your position at the end of May

21     1992?

22        A.   Yes, under 2, yes, that is correct.

23        Q.   Is this the meeting that you have been discussing today that was

24     held in Lukavica?

25        A.   Yes.  I just didn't know that it was a Saturday, the day of the

Page 25603

 1     meeting.

 2        Q.   And just so we're clear, was this the only meeting that you

 3     attended with General Mladic between May and September 1992?

 4        A.   I didn't have any other meetings until I came to the command of

 5     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  There were no more of these meetings until

 6     the 15th or 16th of September, 1992.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  That's understood.

 8             Throughout this meeting, the various brigade commanders report on

 9     matters in their respective zones of operations.  Some include, as you

10     can see even under Colonel Milosevic's entry, the amount of persons which

11     appear to be under their command as part of their reports.

12             In the parenthesis under your name in item 2, it states:  "(About

13     850)".

14             On this date is it correct that you reported to General Mladic

15     that there were about 850 individuals under your command?

16        A.   It says here 850 but it's 850 who could have been placed at

17     disposal in Rajlovac, those who could bear arms and who were subject to

18     military service.  But most of them were useless, this included the

19     president of the municipality on, so it was the number that could be

20     gathered.  These were not people who actually bore weapons but it was the

21     number that could be made available.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak

23     louder and into the microphone.  Thank you.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Do I then understand --

Page 25604

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness --

 2             MR. WEBER:  Oh, sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please speak a bit louder and

 4     could you please speak more into the microphone.  I see the microphone is

 5     directed quite far away from ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The 850 given here in parentheses,

 7     these were men that were in the entire territory of the Rajlovac

 8     municipality that was subject to military duty but that number was never

 9     actually under weapons and engaged in the Rajlovac municipality.

10        Q.   We'll come back to that number in a later document that we'll

11     look at, but I'd like to show you one more page in this notebook while

12     we're here.

13             MR. WEBER:  If I could have page 35 of the B/C/S original and

14     page 34 of the English translation.

15        Q.   This relates to a meeting that you were not present for or a

16     conversation that you were not present for which appeared to occur after

17     your meeting, according to the notebook, in the afternoon on the 30th.

18     It relates to a conversation with Colonel Wilson.  The notes state:

19             "Secretary-General asked him to convey you a message as soon as

20     possible:  for the shelling of Sarajevo to stop and to express his

21     concern at the destruction of Sarajevo."

22             Sir, I put it to you that there was destruction being caused to

23     Sarajevo due to shelling by the VRS around the time of your meeting.  Do

24     you agree?

25        A.   I don't know.  I don't know that data.  I'm not sure about this.

Page 25605

 1     I really am not able to give you an answer on this.

 2             What I can say is that there was no shooting from the area of

 3     responsibility of Rajlovac at the city of Sarajevo.  That's what I can

 4     state.

 5        Q.   Okay.  We'll go in further into the activities of your brigade at

 6     this time.  Right now I'd like to move on to a couple other small items.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber --

 9             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  When you said what you can say is that there was no

11     shooting from the area of responsibility of Rajlovac, what time-frame do

12     you have in mind was there no shooting?

13             And you're looking at Mr. Weber, but this question is put to you

14     by me as the Presiding Judge.  Could you tell us what time you had on

15     your mind that there was no shooting?  Was it for months?  Was it for

16     years?  Was it for days?  And if so, what years, what months, or what

17     days?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I think this part that refers to

19     the meeting, that refers to the meeting that was held, and so this is the

20     report for the afternoon.  There was no shooting at the town then.  It

21     was not possible because based on what I learned later, the attack on

22     Osijek, the Butile barracks, took place so that there was shooting from

23     Ahatovici at positions where the Rajlovac Brigade was located, so I'm

24     saying that it wasn't possible that there was any fire directed at the

25     city.

Page 25606

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And would that cover the previous days, the days

 2     before Colonel Wilson comes and asks to stop the shelling?  Was there no

 3     shooting in the days, well, let's say the week before Colonel Wilson met

 4     with General Mladic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I really -- I can't say.  I can't

 6     say.  There was firing.  On the 4th of April Rajlovac barracks was

 7     attacked, so there was fire in defence as of the 4th of April when the

 8     barracks was attacked.  So until the 13th, this firing was constant.

 9     From time to time, it was from both sides.  Not three or four days would

10     pass without some form of fire.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And after the 13th?  Because this meeting was held

12     on the 30th of May, which is six weeks later, what happened in those six

13     weeks as far as shooting is concerned?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know if I understood the

15     question.  Could the interpreter repeat the question, please?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, perhaps I will repeat the question.

17             I asked you about the time-frame of where you said that there had

18     been no shooting from the Rajlovac Brigade.  I asked you whether that

19     extended to a time period before the 30th of May.  You then explained

20     that between the 4th and the 13th of April, there had been shooting in

21     the context of an attack to the barracks.

22             What I'm asking you now is whether there was any firing from the

23     Rajlovac Brigade between the 13th of April and the date of this meeting

24     which was the 30th of May, 1992.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  There was firing by members of the

Page 25607

 1     Rajlovac Brigade who came there from Mijatovica Kosa, from their homes.

 2     I remember very well these were people who had fled from their homes,

 3     they came to the barracks in Rajlovac, they were staying there, and they

 4     were watching as the items from their houses were being taken out.  There

 5     were mortars there that were left from the time of the JNA, and there was

 6     a soldier who was very upset at what he was seeing going on in his house

 7     and he went to the mortars and he fired out of anger because of the

 8     appliances and things that were being taken out of their houses.  So

 9     there was fire.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Just that one incident or more frequently?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  That's what I know about, that

12     incident I'm aware of.  I know of that incident.  However, it's possible

13     that there was something coming from the other areas.  The line was

14     established from Vogosca Brigade, behind the depot, it lay -- that's

15     where the line was established, so I cannot say.  It was either some

16     firing from there or from elsewhere, so there was intermittent firing in

17     self-defence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But not from Rajlovac if I understand you well.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  From the barracks.  If you're

20     thinking of from the barracks, then no, there was none as far as I know.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 1D04089.

23     This is a document that's referred to in paragraph 76 of the witness's

24     statement, and I'm going to use it quickly just because it was not

25     indicated as one of the associated exhibits that Mr. Stojanovic intended

Page 25608

 1     to tender.

 2        Q.   Sir, this is a 15 June 1992 SRK 1st lmBR Rajlovac request from

 3     you as the commander of the brigade.  Is it correct that you continued as

 4     the commander of the Rajlovac Brigade until the 15th of June, 1992?

 5        A.   Correct.  I carried out that duty after Doljanic Rajko left and

 6     before my successor came.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

 8        Q.   I'll clarify this.  Sir, your successor was Mr. Milos Golijanin;

 9     is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes.

11        Q.   In this document, what does the 1st lmBr stand for?

12        A.   We named it ourselves.  We wanted to have mechanised equipment

13     and I asked various organs that a tank company be transferred here so

14     that we could secure that area and that is why we named it light

15     mechanised brigade, but such a brigade does not exist by establishment.

16     It was our creation and it was formed from the assets that were left in

17     Rajlovac.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4089 receives number P6744, Your

21     Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, just as a housekeeping matter on

24     that, I see that that document, there's a duplicate of it on the

25     Prosecution 65 ter list under 11917, just so we prevent the re-tendering

Page 25609

 1     of that later.

 2             Could the Prosecution please have 1D04082.  This is referred to

 3     in paragraph 74 of the witness's statement.

 4        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, this is a 6 June 1992 order from the

 5     Vogosca Operations Group Commander, Vukota Vukovic.  Is it correct that

 6     Colonel Vukovic was commander of this operations group in June of 1992

 7     and into the fall of 1992?

 8        A.   Colonel Vukota Vukovic was a professor in Rajlovac.  At the

 9     beginning of the conflict he was in Vogosca securing the Vogosca bridge,

10     and then when the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew on the 13th from

11     Rajlovac he remained --

12        Q.   Sir --

13        A.   Yes?

14        Q.   -- sorry to interrupt you, but I would like to proceed

15     efficiently through your examination.  There's no need to provide a whole

16     history of each individual I discuss with you.  If you could please focus

17     on my questions.

18             Is it correct that Colonel Vukovic was the commander of the

19     Vogosca operations group in June 1992 and continued in this position for

20     the rest of that year?

21        A.   Well it's difficult to say yes or no.  The operations group is

22     formed for specific tasks.  I don't know if he had an order to be there

23     but he was the most senior officer, so there was an order and he could

24     have unified that eastern part, and this happened in 1993 or 1994 when

25     the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade was formed.  In other words, yes.

Page 25610

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let's go through this order a little bit.  In the first

 2     paragraph, Colonel Vukovic appoints Miladin Trifunovic and sets forth a

 3     series of tasks.  The order states:

 4             "His task will be to maintain and fully fortify current positions

 5     and establish the firing system in accordance with national positions and

 6     the line of defence."

 7             "He will keep one-third of the troops in the state of permanent

 8     readiness, prepare the unit for combat, train the units to handle heavy

 9     artillery weapons, and soldiers to handle personal weapons, move on the

10     ground, and camouflage."

11             The next item, number 2, appears to relate to you.  It's an

12     appointment designating you as -- mentioning you as commander of the

13     brigade.  And then it states that your tasks will be the same as those

14     above which appears to relate to those of Captain Trifunovic.

15             Do you see this information?  Have I understood this order

16     correctly?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes, you have.

18        Q.   In paragraph 42 of your statement in this case, you state:

19             "The Rajlovac Brigade did not have heavy weapons, those larger

20     than 82-millimetres."

21             This appointment appears to indicate that one of your tasks was

22     to train units to handle heavy artillery weapons.  Could you please

23     explain the reason Colonel Vukovic would assign you to train your units

24     to handle heavy artillery if you did not have them?

25        A.   This was a general assignment issued to Miladin to avoid

Page 25611

 1     repetition from item 2 and item 1, so the training was to be on what I

 2     had and to have a third of the men in reserve in case of any negative

 3     situations, God forbid.  This was perhaps a general order and perhaps he

 4     did not have information about everything that we had at our disposal.

 5             I must note that Rajlovac was a base so you didn't know what was

 6     left behind, what was taken out, where what was.  Perhaps the when

 7     weaponry had gone to the anti-aircraft defence.  We don't know if the JNA

 8     took it because it went through Vogosca.  Perhaps he had pulled

 9     everything out to Stupska or the 5th Vogosca.  So I really wasn't sure

10     about the status.

11        Q.   Sir, is it correct that in the time, your time in the

12     Rajlovac Brigade that you did have weaponry over 82-millimetres in

13     calibre?  I put it to you that you did.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- would it not be fair to read to the witness the

17     line following the line you read about the 82-millimetres, starting at

18     the beginning.

19             MR. WEBER:  Oh, very well, Your Honour.  And I'm sorry if I

20     confused my questions.

21        Q.   Yes, sir.  Maybe if you could just help us understand your

22     statement here.

23             "There were problems with ammunition and we were always short of

24     it, particularly of artillery ammunition.  The Rajlovac Brigade did not

25     have heavy weapons, those larger than 82-millimetres.  At the beginning,

Page 25612

 1     we had three or four 82-millimetre mortars."

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I read 120, Mr. --

 3             MR. WEBER:  Oh, I -- yes, thank you, Your Honour.  You're --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. WEBER:  -- reading better than me this morning.

 6        Q.   "... four 120-millimetre mortars."

 7             And I just want to stop there.  I'll address the snipers in a

 8     little bit.

 9             Sir, so actually what I'm putting to you is that you did have

10     heavy weapons larger than 82-millimetres; is this correct?

11        A.   There were three mortars or four, I don't know exactly, that

12     stayed in the barracks in Rajlovac.  So there were three or four of them.

13     Then there were 82-millimetre mortars, part of them.  So that was it.

14             Now, I don't know whether anything is being transferred here.  In

15     the former JNA, 120-millimetre mortars were transferred to the infantry.

16     Now I cannot say but at any rate it was three or four of these mortars.

17             When people say artillery ammunition, that is what is meant.

18     That is my understanding of that.  That's this first period.  I mean,

19     later --

20        Q.   Well just before we leave this document, you also referred -- it

21     also refers to training of personal weapons.  Is it correct that the

22     Rajlovac Brigade possessed M-76 and M-48 rifles?

23        A.   That is correct.  That is correct.  An entire warehouse full of

24     ammunition and weapons stayed on and I know that we distributed that to

25     Serbs and Muslims and I know that that unit had these rifles, so -- so

Page 25613

 1     they did have these weapons.  Now -- oh, yes, that's it, yes.

 2        Q.   Sir, I want -- when you say they had these weapons, you're

 3     referring to your brigade; correct?

 4        A.   Let's think this up:  The base as the base had this, the brigade

 5     had this.  Now, the personnel who had it then, they got it.  I don't know

 6     how familiar you are with Rajlovac.  I'm sure that you looked at the map

 7     during these preparations.  This was a transit zone and everybody who

 8     went through there, they got their weapons from Rajlovac.  And according

 9     to the order of Vukota Vukovic, the Kosevo Brigade was trained up,

10     Rajlovac, because then this regiment came from Zadar at the time, so

11     there were all sorts of -- well, I mean, there were these light

12     weapons -- yes?

13        Q.   Now just focusing on this order, you carried it out; correct?

14     You did training on personal weapons including the M-76s and M-48 rifles?

15        A.   Well, quite a few people knew about this and I know that later, a

16     sergeant who had come from Serbia, I mean everybody who was gathered

17     there in Rajlovac, 18-year-olds who hadn't served their term in the

18     military, we organised this training.  We made this plan for like one

19     month and in order to have people trained so that they would not just

20     lose their lives and basically in the barracks or wherever they may have

21     been.

22        Q.   Is it correct that some of your men mounted optical sights on top

23     of some of these rifles as parts of their personal weapons kits?

24        A.   Well, now, these optical sights, they were manufactured in Zrak.

25     In Zrak.

Page 25614

 1        Q.   I didn't ask where they were manufactured or anything like that.

 2     A very straightforward question:  Is it correct that some of your men

 3     mounted optical sights on top of some of these rifles as part of their

 4     personal weapons kit?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, that's correct.  They had this -- these optical sites.

 6     I mean they had left the area of responsibility.  Now, how that stayed

 7     there, I mean we have to go back to the previous thing.  I mean, that is

 8     to say that this was obtained even before the war.  But optical sights

 9     were not being distributed by these officers who stayed on in Rajlovac.

10        Q.   Okay.  This Chamber has received evidence that these kind of

11     rifles could be used by snipers.  I put it to you that in the vicinity of

12     your brigade, there were individuals who were provided with training on

13     how to use M-76 and M-48 rifles, thereby individuals who were trained to

14     use these weapons, and your statement is not accurate that there was no

15     trained professional snipers.  Do you agree?

16        A.   I cannot agree.  As far as I know, no training was conducted.  It

17     is possible that somebody may have organised training.  I mean if they

18     had a rifle, if they did it somewhere else, I cannot deny that.  But I

19     just know that there was no organised training for this kind of activity;

20     that is to say, these young soldiers took their oath on St. Vitus's day

21     on the 28th of June.  The Commander Vukota Vukovic, I mean, that was in

22     this hall in Rajlovac, that's where they took the oath and that's where

23     we started training.  I mean, they'd take the oath and then they'd move

24     on and train with Jovic.  I think that was the name of the sergeant.  So

25     that was not that.

Page 25615

 1             Now, these were young people.  Now whether anybody had come from

 2     the army before that, I mean infantry units, police, things like that, I

 3     cannot say whether somebody like that trained people, but I'm saying this

 4     because this was not organised by the Superior Command or this operative

 5     group Vogosca.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Your Honours, I'm not going to tender this

 7     document since Mr. Stojanovic has indicated that this was one of the

 8     associated exhibits he wanted.

 9             I'm going to move on, actually to -- could the Prosecution please

10     have P4357 for the witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for that, Witness, your

12     statement contains the Rajlovac Brigade had no trained professional

13     snipers.  If I understood your testimony well, you do not exclude for the

14     possibility that people within the brigade had been trained, although not

15     organised by you, in the use of rifles and that optical sites may have

16     been mounted on the rifles that were within the brigade.  Is that well

17     understood?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  In those circumstances, I would say the

20     Rajlovac Brigade had no trained professional snipers is not a very

21     accurate statement of the situation within the brigade.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Sir, before you is a 25 June 1992 request from Colonel Hasic, the

25     SRK assistant commander for logistics, to the VRS Main Staff Koran

Page 25616

 1     command post.  The order states:

 2             "Based on the conversation with General Mladic, the commander of

 3     the army of the SR BiH, we hereby ask you to provide the following

 4     equipment for the needs of the Rajlovac Brigade."

 5             Included in the request is eight snipers.  Do I understand this

 6     correctly that this refers to eight sniper rifles?

 7        A.   I think that this 50 camouflage uniforms -- well, yes, it's the

 8     corps command that is asking the Main Staff.  Probably it was for us

 9     because we had a lot of deaths in front of the kitchen door.  People

10     would get hit right here and --

11        Q.   Sir, we'll go through this.  I'm just asking you very simple to

12     clarify do you agree that the reference to eight snipers refers to eight

13     sniper rifles.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the witness confirmed, I think.

15             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, and pistols down here.  Yes.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Is it correct that such a request for the needs of the

20     Rajlovac Brigade would have come up from you as a commanding officer in

21     the brigade through the SRK command to General Mladic?

22        A.   This is the 25th of June, 1992; is that right?

23        Q.   Sir, that's the day of the document.

24        A.   Well, I think a month or a month and a half before that,

25     Golijanin came who took over.  I think that this is not my request,

Page 25617

 1     possibly his or there's also --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Soldiers were asking for this to

 4     be done to prevent all these deaths in Rajlovac.  There is such a lot of

 5     sniper fire.  We have nothing to respond with.  It's from the

 6     Rajlovac Brigade at any rate.  Yes, otherwise they won't ask for that.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Just to clarify, when Milos Golijanin took over the brigade you

 9     remained the deputy commander; correct?

10        A.   Yes, I stayed there until the 15th, until the 15th of September.

11     Now this, the 25th, no, sorry -- sorry, then it went from us.  From us,

12     yes, when I held that position.  Sorry, I thought it was the 9th.  Sorry.

13     Sorry.  I got a bit confused in terms of dates.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I seek clarification.  Earlier you

15     said, talking about this same request, that you referred to a date and

16     you said:

17             "I think that this is not my request, possibly his or there's

18     also ..."

19             Now, I know that you --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers].

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I know that you have corrected yourself but the

22     interpreters could not hear the last name you mentioned.  So apart from

23     referring to yourself and to Mr. Golijanin, could you tell us what other

24     name you mentioned when you said "or there's also ..." and you then

25     mentioned a name?

Page 25618

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Logistics organs, possibly

 2     logistics organs because they asked for pistols and everything else.

 3     These people who are in Rajlovac; that is to say, I mean from logistics.

 4     From the logistics people.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have clarified and you have filled in what

 6     the interpreters could not hear.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just get clarification further.  Now that

 8     you have corrected yourself on the dates, is it correct therefore that

 9     this request was yours?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I personally cannot say that I

11     sent this, but most probably from the logistics organs of the

12     Rajlovac Brigade.  It would be the corps commander if it went through the

13     corps command, so that would have been in stronger terms.  This came from

14     the logistics organs.  I assumed that we got these rifles -- I mean

15     within some units, something would be formed so that we could organise

16     appropriate activity.  I mean, I have to say that we did not receive this

17     although a request had been sent.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31254.

21        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be a 27 July 1992 request from

22     Milos Golijanin the commander of the Rajlovac Brigade.  The request at

23     the beginning states:

24             "We hereby inform you that with respect to the number of soldiers

25     and the types of weapons in the unit, we have in our possession the

Page 25619

 1     necessary number of bk combat sets for specific weapons and artillery

 2     pieces except for the following types of ammunition and MES which we need

 3     you to approve for our replenishment."

 4             Under item 2, this request asks for 9.000 7.9-millimetre sniper

 5     rounds.  Do you see this information?

 6        A.   I see that.

 7        Q.   I put it to you that your brigade would not have requested so

 8     many sniper rounds if it did not have snipers to use these weapons.  Do

 9     you agree that by this time you had people using weapons for these

10     calibre rounds?

11        A.   This sniper, this sniper bullets, no M-48 rifles, M-76 that the

12     brigade had, so it used those bullets and they work better and they had

13     sights.  But it's not a sniper rifle.  It's with optical sights that they

14     improve precision, and then there wouldn't be a waste of ammunition.  And

15     this is three or four boxes, so I don't know exactly how many are in one

16     box so that's why this was asked for.  And from there you can see that in

17     fact we didn't have this ammunition, and then he asked for replenishment

18     so that he'd have all of it.  I see down here this other ammunition too.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'd asked my question on the document.

20     I would tender it into evidence and I see that we're at a break time.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, I just want to say:

22             Witness, you say that these were not sniper rifles, but I see at

23     item 17 of this request there's also a request for eight sniper rifles.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I assume that that was asked

25     for that -- I mean, that's correct, well, nothing else, well, you know.

Page 25620

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break.

 3             Witness, would you please -- you want to tender the document as

 4     well.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes, please.  [Overlapping speakers].

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness can already follow the usher.

 7             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31254 receives number P6745,

10     Your Honours.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  We resume at quarter past

13     12.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into

17     the courtroom.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if you'd like I can read out the next

19     document that I'll be using.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

21             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution will be calling up 65 ter 31253.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for that, I think I had not

23     yet -- no, I'll leave it until later.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

Page 25621

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Sir, before you is a 24 September 1992 request from

 3     Colonel Vukovic asking Pretis to supply 30 120-millimetre light contact

 4     fuse motors and 40 105-millimetre shells to the Rajlovac Brigade.  Is it

 5     correct 105-millimetre shells are heavy artillery ammunition?

 6        A.   105-millimetres, is that what you mean?  The one down here, 40

 7     pieces, 105-millimetres.

 8        Q.   Sir, yes, that's what I'm referring to.

 9        A.   I think that this is for artillery weapons.

10        Q.   Yes.  Which begs the question:  which artillery pieces did you

11     have or is it correct that you had 105-millimetre howitzers in your

12     brigade?

13        A.   Forty pieces.  Now, is this combat kit?  I don't know.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  The question was

15     whether you had 105-millimetre howitzers in your brigade.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  At the time of this request, I

17     don't think so, but it could have come from - what was its name? -

18     Ilijas.  It could have come from Ilijas, from other units.  It could have

19     been done that way.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Sir, I'm just going to put it to you that you are minimising your

22     evidence related to the artillery in your brigade and that you did, in

23     fact, have artillery pieces greater than 82-millimetres.  Do you have any

24     other comments?

25        A.   No, I don't think it can be that way.  There was this problem of

Page 25622

 1     ammunition.  And also this artillery ammunition, when that was being

 2     asked for, the brigades were linked up.  The Rajlovac Brigade did not

 3     have any, I know that.  So Vukota Vukovic, this is the 24th of September,

 4     if you had ammunition it was easy to get weapons from another unit

 5     10 kilometres maximum, that was the distance.  That's why I'm saying, I

 6     am not minimising what you are saying but I cannot confirm it either.  We

 7     did not have our own weapons.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I ask a question here.

10             Sir, just before this disappears from the page, at page 46, line

11     6, you are asked a question:

12             "Is it correct 105-millimetre shells are heavy artillery

13     ammunition?"

14             You haven't answered that question.  Can you answer with a yes or

15     no, please?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I think so, yes, that

17     ammunition --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you.  Thank you.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   And just on the answer you gave, it's really not clear what

21     you're saying to me.  Did you get heavy artillery weapons from other

22     units?  Were there occasions when that happened?  Is that what you're

23     trying to say?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We have no interpretation.

Page 25623

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Can you hear the English

 2     booth now?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We can hear you now.

 4             Witness, could you please repeat your answer.  The question again

 5     because we didn't receive interpretation.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Did you get heavy artillery weapons from other units?

 8        A.   This is what I was saying.  If you have ammunition for your

 9     purposes, I mean a unit that's there that has this range, they will work

10     on certain targets that you set according to the map, and that's why

11     Vukota Vukovic set this Rajlovac, most probably that was the objective --

12     I mean but --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should answer the question.  Did you get

14     heavy artillery weapons from other units?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  We did not.  We did not.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then I would like to ask an additional question.

17     Why did your unit ask for ammunition if you didn't have the howitzers and

18     if you didn't get any weapons from other units?  What is the reason for

19     asking for the shells?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  If that is what is asked for and

21     if a unit has these weapons, they could have used these shells according

22     to their own plan.  And as for the weapons that will be used for

23     shooting, they can be in other units because it depended on the range

24     where they were so that they could observe what a unit is asking for.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You're not answering my question.  Why was asked

Page 25624

 1     for 105-millimetre shells, 40 pieces, if there were no weapons to fire

 2     with it?  And if no weapons were delivered from other units, why did your

 3     unit ask for these shells?  There's no use for them.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  These shells, these shells, when

 5     they're received, then they are given to the unit that has these weapons

 6     and then they fire at the request of those who provided those shells.  I

 7     mean that ammunition.  I think that now I have provided an answer as I

 8     should.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you really think another unit used this

10     ammunition, why did the other unit not ask for these shells?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The other unit that asked for the

12     shells asked for them for their own purposes; that is to say, for their

13     own objectives, their own targets, their own defence area.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't have an additional question.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But these shells were asked for by your unit.  Why

16     did your unit ask for these shells if you didn't have arms to shoot them?

17     That was the question put by the Judge.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  These shells were probably

19     requested for targets that were on the enemy side and then a unit that

20     was their immediate neighbour could have handled that but --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you there.  You're not answering my

22     question.

23             Why did you make the request?  Why did your unit make the request

24     for this ammunition if you didn't have arms to shoot them?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I assume that it's already the

Page 25625

 1     24th of September, so most probably then --

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let's stop there.  Let's stop there.  You're not

 3     answering my question.  Stop there.  The record show that you are not

 4     answering my questions.  Thank you so much.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I see whether I understood you well.

 6             Do I understand you well when you say the operations group may

 7     have asked for this ammunition so that it would be used, although not by

 8     your own artillery weapons, but by other artillery weapons within the

 9     operations group but to serve the Rajlovac Brigade in that they would

10     fire at your request this ammunition on targets you had identified and

11     which may have been different from the targets other units within the

12     operation group would have identified?  Is that how I have to understand

13     your answer?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you, sir.  That is that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Is it correct then that you could call in heavy artillery support

20     from neighbouring units?

21        A.   Correct, yes, that is correct.

22        Q.   These neighbouring units would include in 1992 the

23     Vogosca Brigade and the Ilidza Brigade; correct?

24        A.   I don't know if they did, but neighbouring units could support

25     Rajlovac even across the street, the one that Sarajevo --

Page 25626

 1     1st Sarajevo Brigade, they could provide fire support, yes, that is

 2     correct.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Just so I understand this:  You were able to communicate

 4     and call in fire support from the southern part of the inner circle where

 5     the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade was; is that correct?  So in the part

 6     of the encirclement that was opposite of you.

 7        A.   That is correct, but it had to go through the command and the

 8     corps.  It had to go through the corps command to be approved to have

 9     synchronised fire.

10        Q.   Great.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please tender this document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31253 receives number P6746, Your

14     Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, the next area that I'm going to go into

17     actually relates to Ahatovici and this actually triggers my 90(E)

18     concerns.  I don't know if Your Honours want to wait until I get to a

19     specific question, or if it would be more fair for the witness to advise

20     him before going into the topic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I will advise the witness right from the beginning.

22             Witness, if any question is asked to you which, if you would

23     truthfully answer that question, might tend to incriminate yourself, then

24     you may object to making any statement in response to that question.

25             The Chamber can compel you to answer the question but such an

Page 25627

 1     answer could not be used as evidence against you, so therefore if you

 2     have any concerns that a truthful answer to any of the questions that may

 3     follow would tend to incriminate yourself, do not hesitate to address me

 4     if you want to object against answering that question.

 5             Is that clear to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, is it correct that the village of Ahatovici

10     contained a mixed ethnic population prior to the war?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it correct that forces of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps entered

13     the village of Ahatovici at the end of May 1992?

14        A.   In 1992, in early June.

15        Q.   Is it correct that actually they entered at the end of May 1992,

16     or are you saying that this did not occur until early June of that year?

17        A.   Early.  Yes.  Yes.  I don't know if it's a day up or down so it's

18     the end of May and beginning of June.

19        Q.   And we'll look at some documents that maybe we can revisit that.

20             Prior to entering the village, is it correct that Ahatovici was

21     encircled and the army issued an ultimatum to surrender to those inside

22     the village?

23        A.   Ahatovici was not surrounded.  The village was not surrounded and

24     the army did not issue an ultimatum.  They were not surrounded.  The army

25     did not issue an ultimatum.  It was two villages that were bordering on

Page 25628

 1     them, they were holding guards each on their own side.  So these were

 2     units that had armed themselves and were keeping guard there within their

 3     own villages.

 4        Q.   Okay.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02613.

 6        Q.   Sir, this is a SR BIH MUP bulletin dated 30 May 1992.  In the

 7     first paragraph, the bulletin states:

 8             "The green berets and other Muslim paramilitary formations, which

 9     attacked parts of the Dobrosevici MZ yesterday, 29 May 1992 were repelled

10     and driven out of the school in Dobrosevici.

11             "And from the Bioce village in Ilijas SO and then they were

12     encircled in Ahatovici village.  The Serbian army issued an ultimatum to

13     these paramilitary groups in Ahatovici village to surrender by 1800 hours

14     today, 30 May, 1992."

15             Sir, I put it to you that based on this document that was

16     contemporaneous at the time, that these are the events that occurred.  Do

17     you agree?

18        A.   It's possible.  It's possible.  But I don't think that there was

19     an ultimatum, as far as I know.  It's possible, I mean, that there was no

20     ultimatum.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Weber --

22             MR. WEBER:  Yes?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- in fairness to the witness, when you asked this

24     question it was premised on your statement that the village of Ahatovici

25     had a mixed ethnic population and you left the impression that when you

Page 25629

 1     said that the village was surrounded, that it was surrounding civilians.

 2     This document talks of surrounding paramilitaries.

 3             MR. WEBER:  I understand.  I'm going to go further into -- I

 4     appreciate Your Honour's concern.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 6             MR. WEBER:  And thank you.

 7        Q.   Just so we get something clear, we've looked at materials already

 8     from General Mladic's notebook that you were the commander of the

 9     Rajlovac Brigade on this date, and is it correct Ahatovici was in the

10     zone of responsibility of the Rajlovac Brigade?

11        A.   Yes.  Yes, because Rajlovac encompassed those 850 people that

12     Mladic referred to, so Ahatovici and all of those villages, all of that

13     is in that territory.

14        Q.   And, sir, in addition -- as Judge Moloto has noted, in addition

15     to the paramilitaries that were encircled in Ahatovici, I put it to you

16     that there was also civilians that were located inside the village at

17     that time; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Is it correct that the Muslim paramilitary groups inside the

20     village refused to surrender and the village was shelled?

21        A.   I cannot state that for certain.  All I know is that when I was

22     in Lukavica at a meeting with General Mladic, the exchange of mortar fire

23     had started.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, do I understand correctly that you as the brigade

25     commander were aware of these operations which did occur for at least

Page 25630

 1     from, according to this document, the 29th through to early June 1992?

 2     This operation was just not isolated to the time you were in Lukavica is

 3     what I'm saying.

 4        A.   I didn't know there was information that the Butile barracks was

 5     attacked to the area of responsibility of Ahatovici where the Muslims

 6     were, then some positions were attacked at the mountain pass towards

 7     Ilijas, the pass that is there, so that was attacked, and so I started --

 8     firing had started.  I was informed that Ahatovici was attacked, that

 9     that area was attacked, and that these others used mortars.  And then

10     that is how long the exchange of mortar fire lasted.  That was that

11     information, and then that took five or six days.  And then after that,

12     this spontaneous development of events happened.

13        Q.   Let's go to that point then.

14             After the village of Ahatovici was secured by the SRK, is it

15     correct that several hundred individuals of Muslim ethnicity including

16     women and children were taken to the Rajlovac barracks where they were

17     detained?

18        A.   Well I would like to go back a bit.  That is correct what you

19     said about the barracks in Rajlovac, because on all sides it was

20     impossible to pass towards Ilidza and down towards the town.  So it was

21     only possible here towards Rajlovac to create an area to move, and this

22     is done by the senior officers who remained there.  They --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down, Witness, and could you

25     resume where you said that:  "It was only possible here towards Rajlovac

Page 25631

 1     to create an area to move, and this is done by the senior officers who

 2     remained there..."  And could you resume from there?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It's like this:  There was no

 4     place anywhere for them to be put so that they would be safe so that was

 5     the point.  We had to provide them safety and security of those people

 6     because as we say, it all came from all sides whenever that happened, but

 7     we just managed to keep them in Rajlovac, in the Rajlovac barracks, I

 8     mean, and to secure them.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   You just mentioned that this was done by the senior officers who

11     remain there.  Could you please tell us their names?

12        A.   Well, you can see from what is there before that it was

13     Vukota Vukovic at the command post of this -- that's where he was.  And

14     that is -- we're talking about the military senior officers who remained

15     at the school, Lasta Apostolovski, I think he was there, I mean in that

16     part, and then the Rajlovac senior officer, the reserve ones who knew

17     those people.  I mean, those people in that area.  So it was these senior

18     officers.  I don't know if there was anybody else.  I'm not able to say.

19     All I know is that -- yes, among them, I don't know what happened.  I was

20     not present so I was not able to.

21        Q.   Was Mirko Krajisnik there?

22        A.   Mirko Krajisnik was in Rajlovac.  He is from Zabrdje originally.

23     I think later he played the greatest role in saving these people there

24     from the paramilitaries and from, as we say, bypassers who continued to

25     inflict, inflict, inflict, unpleasantness on those people.

Page 25632

 1        Q.   I'm not sure you've specifically answered my question.  I'm

 2     asking if Mirko Krajisnik was present in Ahatovici when the people were

 3     brought from the village to the barracks?

 4        A.   I don't know if he was there personally, but I know that he

 5     played a major role in the barracks in saving these people.

 6        Q.   Is it correct that the people that were taken from Ahatovici,

 7     that the men were divided and separated from the women and children?

 8        A.   I don't have the exact information about that.  I didn't really

 9     go into the way the accommodation in the barracks was organised.  I

10     assumed that, yes, they were kept separate, that they were separated,

11     yes.

12        Q.   Is it correct that you were aware of situations when these people

13     who were kept at the barracks were beaten?

14        A.   I mentioned earlier that Mirko Krajisnik played the biggest role

15     there.  I was present once when they almost fired at us.  They wanted to

16     terrorise those people.  We tried to prevent that as much as possible --

17     yes.

18        Q.   You're really not answering my question.  My question was:   Is

19     it correct that you were aware of situations when these people who were

20     kept at the barracks were beaten?

21        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

22             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I tender this document --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm not denying that this didn't

24     happen.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not denying that it may have happened if

Page 25633

 1     otherwise [Overlapping speakers] --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm not denying it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And on the basis why don't you deny that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  There was great hatred amongst the

 5     peoples at the time, and people from Pofalici escaped to Rajlovac from

 6     Central Bosnia.  All of those people were accommodated from Rajlovac.

 7     The people couldn't be mixed together.  So I'm not denying it.  That's

 8     why I said I'm not denying it.  Then many people were mistreated, beaten,

 9     abused, so the easiest thing to do is take one's revenge on those who are

10     innocent and had nothing to do with anything.  That's why I'm not denying

11     it.

12             We took measures, as much as we were able to.  We provided food

13     and water, everything that we could.  They had the same treatment as

14     these others, it's just that they were isolated so that they would not

15     mix together, anything could happen, somebody could stop by, throw a bomb

16     in, so we had to think about all options.  So we had to keep them

17     separate from the others and that's why I'm saying I'm not denying that

18     this did not happen.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But you were in command over those barracks, weren't

20     you?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, to the extent that I was the

22     commander, I was also not the commander.  The objective was to preserve

23     the barracks because some 15 or 20 minutes there were the Muslims, the

24     paramilitary forces, they were holding that area up to the gas station,

25     so it was the railway lines and the barracks.  The barracks were

Page 25634

 1     practically empty.  Everything else was out in the field in the area of

 2     responsibility in Zabrdje, in Dobrosevici, Ahatovici, on the little

 3     river.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a very long answer, but you said to the extent

 5     that you were the commander, you were also not the commander.  Who

 6     allowed those in those barracks to -- who decided that that's where they

 7     should stay or would stay.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I cannot answer that.  I did not

 9     do it myself personally.  All I knew is that they were brought to the

10     barracks.  They were brought to the barracks by the troops and not by the

11     paramilitaries but by the troops by those senior officers who were there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Under whose command were those troops?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  They were already in the

14     stage of being formed, the TO, those units that received their weapons

15     from the JNA, when they got their weapons.  So they were supposed to be

16     under the command of the Army of Republika Srpska, but this was not

17     established, nobody had arrived that -- most of them were still at their

18     houses.  And then the senior officers from the command in Rajlovac who

19     happened to be there --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was in command over these senior officers?  To

21     whom were they subordinate?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well it was hard to tell who they

23     were subordinated to.  Not to me.  I know very well that they were not

24     subordinated to me.  There were those who were left over there from the

25     130th base.

Page 25635

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If not you, who else?  You say it's hard to say.

 2     Tell me nevertheless because you were at that moment on the same day, you

 3     were meeting in Lukavica at exactly the same period in time with

 4     General Mladic apparently being in the position to command over the

 5     Rajlovac Brigade which apparently did exist, otherwise you wouldn't meet

 6     with General Mladic as -- on behalf of the Rajlovac Brigade.  We've seen

 7     that report.  Who else then was in command if it wasn't you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I went to the meeting representing

 9     the command in Rajlovac, so I was the senior officer from the command.

10     But there were more senior people there than I was, meaning more senior.

11     So nobody actually wanted to go --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you there.  Who was more senior?  Who was

13     more senior than you?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Vukota Vukovic was more senior.

15     Then also we had Lasta Apostolovski, he was a major.  Then you had Ljuban

16     Mrkic, I think.  He was also a major.  So there were more senior officers

17     than I was.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  They were all Rajlovac Brigade officers?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  No, no, these were officers who

20     had remained in Rajlovac, who had remained in Rajlovac before that.  They

21     were supposed to be subordinated to the Rajlovac Brigade before that.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's still unclear.  The Rajlovac Brigade meets, at

23     least you as a representative, with General Mladic, you're talking about

24     others, senior officers, but you say they were not in the

25     Rajlovac Brigade.  What unit were they then part of?

Page 25636

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  If you allow me.  I have to go

 2     back.  The base was there, 130th base, that was the most senior command.

 3     And as a brigade in war, it's formed out of the schools.  So these were

 4     people from the schools, people who were professors in the schools.  At

 5     the academy, you know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but if we read in the document we saw a minute

 7     ago, the Serbian army issued an ultimatum to those paramilitary groups,

 8     who is then the Serbian army if it's not the Rajlovac Brigade which meets

 9     at the same time with General Mladic.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Look, there was Butile as well and

11     then Ilidza, so perhaps one of those people issued an ultimatum for them

12     to surrender.  Perhaps that was Butile, Major Branko Tesanovic.  Butile

13     is closer.  So perhaps that was the source for those events, perhaps one

14     of those gave it.  All I know is that in Rajlovac we had difficulty

15     keeping it, so when that happened I even pulled back some units.  I said,

16     "You come here back to Rajlovac," of those who went there, I mean, I

17     mean, to Ahatovici.  I know I stayed there and I tried to save Rajlovac

18     because I was afraid that they would come to Rajlovac and enter it from

19     Sokolje.  I mean, I mean -- and that is why I'm saying what it was.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I heard you say you come here back to Rajlovac.  At

21     the same time you tell us that senior officers took civilian women,

22     children to Rajlovac barracks, and you say I said you come here to

23     Rajlovac, which sounds as if you take responsibility for at least

24     adopting those women and children in Rajlovac barracks.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I didn't understand you

Page 25637

 1     completely.  I apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us that under those circumstances,

 3     irrespective of we -- who exactly gave the ultimatum but you said:

 4             "... I even pulled back some units.  I said, 'You come here back

 5     to Rajlovac...'"

 6             That's what you told us a minute ago.  What units did you pull

 7     back?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  There was a group that had come

 9     from Ilijas to help out.  A group, I think about 20 men.  And they came,

10     I mean, when all of that started.  I said, I mean, come here.  I don't

11     know how I did that, through radio or by messenger.  I said Rajlovac has

12     to be saved.  If they stay around that area, around Ahatovici.  So combat

13     had been underway for four or five days.  That's how long it took.  So

14     that was the point.  You come here, no matter what, because if this falls

15     then it's all gone.  So that was the point.  I mean, I mean, that group

16     from Ilijas.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, they apparently were under your command that

18     you could pull them back.  Apparently they listened to your orders.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I asked, I didn't order, I asked.

20     Because nothing was permitted to fall then.  If Rajlovac fell, everything

21     else would be vulnerable, Ilijas and everything, so Rajlovac could not

22     have been allowed to fall and so they knew that when they came and that

23     was the reason why I sent for them.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  They came back to Rajlovac barracks.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  That group was returned, the group

Page 25638

 1     that came from Ilijas.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  To where?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Back to Rajlovac to secure the

 4     barracks.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, can they -- did they come together with the

 6     women and the children or did the women and the children come on a

 7     separate occasion.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  They returned immediately.  As

 9     soon as the action started, they returned immediately to the barracks.

10     And the women and children later when everything was over, then they came

11     to Rajlovac.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Accompanied by whom?  Who did bring them, the women

13     and the children?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I cannot say.  I don't know who

15     escorted them, which of the senior officers.  Later I found out it was

16     Bosnic who was representing the TO, the municipality assembly of

17     Rajlovac.  I think that he was there so that these civilians from the

18     municipality, I mean, yes, there were plenty of them.  So I don't know.

19     I mean, I mean, who it was, I don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no further questions for you in this respect.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just follow up on the very last

22     question by the Judge.  Earlier you said these civilians were brought by

23     troops to the barracks.  Do you remember that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The army would employ everybody,

25     but they were representatives of the municipality, that was separate.

Page 25639

 1     And then some of the senior officers also.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But when you say the army and the troops, do you

 3     mean the VRS?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Members of the TO units, all those

 5     who carried weapons, in other words.  As far as I'm concerned, that's all

 6     part of the army.  This is what I meant.  I don't know who else it could

 7     be.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Specifically in that area, that was the

 9     Rajlovac Brigade, isn't it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO.  Which was under your command, isn't it?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It was under the command but how,

13     that needs to be clarified.  They were still not --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not my question.  They were under your

15     command?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well let's see how you mean that.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I mean just what I've said.

18             Let's move on to the next question.  At page 57, you indicated

19     that -- now I want to find out the sentence, please.  Yeah, at page 57,

20     lines 10 to 13, you said:

21             "I mentioned that Mirko Krajisnik played the biggest role there.

22     I was present once when they almost fired at us.  They wanted to

23     terrorise those people.  We tried to prevent that as much as possible."

24             Yes.  My question to you is who were shooting at you and

25     terrorising those people?

Page 25640

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I mentioned various groups and

 2     small groups that did not accept singleness and unity of command so that

 3     was it.  These were renegade groups, they had weapons, equipment, five or

 4     six of them, one among them would be killed, some of them remained behind

 5     in Sarajevo for an exchange.  So that was the gist of it.  They would

 6     come looking for people.  They would want to beat somebody up or settle

 7     accounts from before, so this was something that we were trying to

 8     prevent.

 9             I want to mention also that this Mirko was in civilian clothing.

10     He didn't have a uniform, he had weapons.  He was fired at.  And I came

11     by and I had -- I almost lost my life there in trying to deal with those

12     little groups there.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  That goes beyond my

14     question.  Thank you so much.

15             Yes, Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  If I could continue, I do have more on this topic.  I

17     would tender 65 ter 2613 into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 02613 receives number P6747, Your

20     Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

22             MR. WEBER:  And could the Prosecution go to 65 ter 31264,

23     specifically page 19.

24        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is going to be a part of your testimony

25     in the Karadzic case.  I will read you the full question and answer once

Page 25641

 1     it's up on the screen.  All right.  In your discussion of the people, I'm

 2     going to start at line 2, in relation to this you were asked the

 3     following question:

 4             "Sir, the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that a number of these

 5     people were maltreated.  They were beaten.  They were kept in inhumane

 6     conditions.  Were you aware of that?"

 7             Your answer in the Karadzic case was:

 8             "I knew that they were not beaten or anything.  There were

 9     situations when one individual or two would be beaten up.  There was this

10     rage.  We had terrible problems to prevent that, to prevent individuals

11     from doing that.  We had horrible problems to prevent these unfortunate

12     things happening and these unfortunate things being done by certain

13     individuals.  I mean, people had rifles and how would I know whether

14     they'd open a burst of gunfire at them or whatever.  I mean, it wasn't

15     good.  It's not even good to think about that, about all the things that

16     could have happened but fortunately did not happen."

17             Now, I read you this part because it also appeared to look and be

18     confusing to me in this answer where you out of the gate say -- where you

19     first deny that people were beaten or anything, but then you stated:

20             "There were situations when one individual or two would be beaten

21     up."

22             Is it correct that you personally were aware of such situations?

23     That was your previous evidence, wasn't it?

24        A.   Well, I did know but I tried to have this prevented as much as

25     possible, even with our lives in danger.  I mentioned this thing about

Page 25642

 1     Mirko but then I didn't mention other things and --

 2        Q.   Just some simple questions then.  You say situations, how many

 3     situations were you aware of?  If you could just give us a number.

 4        A.   No, I don't know.  No, I don't know how many.  Two or three, I

 5     think, if not even more than that.  I mean these situations.

 6        Q.   And these were two or three situations while you were the brigade

 7     commander at the end of May and June 1992; correct?

 8        A.   Until they went to Sarajevo, that is to say, until --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the witness

10     when he is not speaking into the microphone.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you again speak into the microphone

12     and repeat your last answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until we returned them to the

14     Muslims in Sarajevo.

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   How long after -- when was that?

17        A.   I don't know, five or six days, I think.  I mean five, six,

18     maximum a week.  That is how long they stayed with us.

19        Q.   Okay.  So so far I understand that you're saying that you were

20     aware of two to three beatings that occurred within five or six days.

21     Who committed these beatings?  What were the names of the people that

22     beat these people?

23        A.   I don't know the exact names, Tom, Dick, and Harry.  I'm just

24     saying that they did not accept any command.  There was this man they

25     called Sok.  I know that he beat somebody up.  Now, was it something from

Page 25643

 1     beforehand, I don't know.  Later on I found out that he was married to a

 2     Muslim woman, that he had a child.  It was a personal settling of

 3     accounts.  I don't know.  I don't know the names.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Do you know who Mile Stojanovic is?

 5        A.   Mile Stojanovic came to Rajlovac perhaps 10 or 15 days before

 6     this happened.  He introduced himself as a sergeant.  I asked him what

 7     his rank was and he said that he was a reserve sergeant and that he was a

 8     man who worked in transportation, so he wanted to work in transportation

 9     there as well.  That's the only thing I know.  I know that his wife and

10     child stayed in town.  I think that he came -- I mean to --

11        Q.   Is it correct he was under your command?

12        A.   He was there.  I told him, "Go to the battalion," the auto

13     battalion.  But let's say that he was here.  I mean, well ...

14        Q.   Sir, you keep on minimising your role.  I'm asking you a really

15     simple question:  Was he under your command?  He's a sergeant that

16     reported to your barracks.  You're saying you're giving him instructions.

17     He was under your command; correct?

18        A.   Well, just this other thing, let me say this.  I mean, he could

19     be given an assignment to go to a different unit, a different

20     municipality.  I have no control over him.  That is to say, I could

21     not -- I mean I wasn't sure whether he would carry out the assignment

22     that he would be given or not.  I couldn't be sure.  I mean, it hadn't

23     started working properly yet.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Weber.  The witness is

25     apparently evasive in answering questions.

Page 25644

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31236.  It's

 2     a published article.  There's currently no translation so I will be

 3     reading it.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is an article dated 17 December 1992 from the AFP,

 5     Agence France Presse, concerning the war crimes commission work in

 6     Sarajevo.  I'm showing this to you because I would like to confront you

 7     with what the public information was related to what we've been

 8     discussing.

 9             The article relates to one individual's experience which is what

10     I would like to discuss with you.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution -- and I'm going to go to a

12     specific part.  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the article.

13        Q.   At the top of this page, it states:

14             "From Butile, Emir and those with him were taken to Rajlovac

15     where men and women were divided up and put into tin water tanks, in one

16     tank about 80 men, in another 130 women and children.  There was no room

17     to lie down."

18             I'll keep on going on here but this is what happened; correct?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   Two paragraphs down, the article states:

21             "One man was taken out at 10.00 p.m. and brought back at

22     10.00 a.m., beaten so badly he died one hour later."

23             I put it to you that people were beaten to death while in the

24     custody of the Rajlovac Brigade at the barracks you were in command of.

25     Do you agree?

Page 25645

 1        A.   I don't agree.  I mean it wasn't possible to secure them from the

 2     paramilitaries.  I say with full responsibility that they would have all

 3     fallen victim if it weren't for the officers of the Rajlovac Brigade.  I

 4     claim that with full responsibility.  They are the most deserving.  That

 5     is how all these people were saved.  I mean, Bozic who did not come -- I

 6     mean, I tried to save them.  So I mean this, possibly -- possibly this

 7     happened.  I mean, I'm not denying anything.  I'm not saying that this

 8     did not happen, but I cannot say that this was done by the

 9     Rajlovac Brigade.  Rather, it was those who didn't want to listen.  So I

10     mean I'm saying taken care of, yes.  Now that you mention Stojanovic, now

11     can he say --

12        Q.   Sir, I'm --

13        A.   -- then, no, I mean the police --

14        Q.   I'm going to go into that information in a second here.  I see

15     you might have seen his name.

16             Are you aware of what happened to a group of prisoners who were

17     taken away on a bus and killed?  Who were taken away from the barracks

18     and killed?

19        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

20        Q.   Let's go through some more information in this, then.

21             This --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, have you ever heard about people

23     taken away on the bus and being killed?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I heard they went to Pale, that

25     they were supposed to be taken to Pale.  I know about that.  And they --

Page 25646

 1     they fell victim somewhere in Muslim-controlled territory.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you were aware of people taken on a bus and

 3     then killed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  They fell victim.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if you can indulge me I just have a

 7     couple more questions on this document before the break.  I see it's the

 8     time though.  Or would you like me to continue afterwards?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need?

10             MR. WEBER:  I plan on using my full time with the witness, two

11     hours, and I'll check --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But for this now before we take the break, you

13     say a few more questions, is that a matter of three minutes then we'll

14     continue.  If it's more than five, then ...

15             MR. WEBER:  I can't safely guarantee you that it's three.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I do understand that it's difficult for

17     you to give any guarantee as to how much time your questions will take.

18     The Chamber is aware of that.

19             Then perhaps we take the break first.

20             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes to

23     2.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 1.18 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

Page 25647

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness, I'd just

 2     briefly like to address associated exhibits with Witness GRM246.  The

 3     Chamber notes that on the 11th of June that the Defence filed the motion

 4     to tender 46 exhibits associated with Rule 92 ter statement of

 5     Witness GRM246.  The Chamber notes that the document bearing

 6     65 ter number 1D04253 was listed twice leaving 45 associated exhibits

 7     which is much higher in number than the Chamber prefers.

 8             The Chamber therefore invites the Defence to consider reducing

 9     the number of associated exhibits by, for example, tendering some of

10     these documents with the witness during examination-in-chief.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you're ready, you may continue.

13             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             On the matter that was just being discussed, if the Prosecution

15     could be informed of which exhibits may be tendered just because there

16     are ones that we also might be seeking, so I note to at least use those

17     during my examination.  That would be greatly appreciated.

18        Q.   Mr. Vujasin, welcome back.  I want to continue on the article we

19     were just discussing and the matter with respect to the bus.  This

20     article continues to state, on the page before you:

21             "Then a corporal, Mile Stojanovic, who was in charge of security,

22     said he would take the 57 men left to be exchanged for prisoners held by

23     Bosnian forces at Kobilja Glava.  This did not work out."

24             Sir, is it correct that this is a reference to the same man who

25     you described today on page 67 as "a man who worked in transportation."

Page 25648

 1        A.   Yes, I mean if it's Mile Stojanovic then it's one and the same

 2     man.

 3        Q.   All right.  The article continues to say:  "The next time they

 4     were taken out was a few days later by heavily guarded men, wearing

 5     goggles that were apparently for night vision.  This is when the 55 left

 6     were piled, one on top of the other, in the back of a bus that was

 7     escorted by two private vehicles."

 8             Sir, is it correct that these vehicles left the barracks, these

 9     people left the barracks on this bus?

10        A.   [No interpretation]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not receive interpretation.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear the English channel now?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We now can hear you.

14             Could you please resume your answer on from the beginning.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know exactly.  I don't

16     know whether it's these people, whether this bus set out from Rajlovac.

17     I don't know about that.  I mean, I don't know about the departure of

18     those people from Rajlovac.  Departure.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   Sir, this article then goes on to describe how the bus reached a

21     place called Sokolina and then there's a description of what happened

22     about how the Serb guards on the bus told them was something wrong with

23     the engine and an attack began with automatic fire and grenades.  At the

24     very end of this article, the individual who is recounting this says that

25     he came back after this attack after he had fled and found that 47 of

Page 25649

 1     these people were dead.  Were you aware of this?

 2        A.   No.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No speaking aloud.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that it's not plausible that people in

10     France were able to read this information in 1992 in that you as the

11     commander of the Rajlovac Brigade were not aware of this same

12     information.  Do you have any comment?

13        A.   I do.  When was this document written?  I mean, I know of that

14     happening, I heard about it when it had already happened, when they were

15     ambushed and killed.

16             Now, that is what I know.  But I don't know that they were taken

17     out of Rajlovac, who took them out, how they left.  So I don't know about

18     that.  Therefore, I cannot confirm that.  I did find out but then how

19     they left, who escorted them in what, in which direction they went, that

20     was outside my control, the control of the Rajlovac Brigade.

21             Mirko too, you can ask him as well.  It was out of control.  And

22     now who were the people escorting them, what you mentioned, I don't know

23     and ...

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

25     end.

Page 25650

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The end of the answer was not interpreted.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   Sir, if it's important, please repeat the end of your answer.

 6        A.   I'm saying I don't know who these people were, who took them out,

 7     who took them over, how they left the barracks, which direction they

 8     took.  I was not involved.  I found out -- I mean, that they had been

 9     killed, that they had been ambushed on Muslim territory, between Serb and

10     Muslim territory.  Now, who was in this ambush, I don't know.  I cannot

11     speak about the direction of movement because I don't know about that

12     either.  There.

13             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31 --

16             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

17             MR. WEBER:  And I think I know what Mr. Stojanovic is going to

18     say.  Can we have it marked for identification pending the translation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Madam Registrar, the number assigned?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31236 receives number P6748, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

24             One short question for the witness:  Did you ever investigate

25     these events which happened in or near your area of responsibility where

Page 25651

 1     possibly your own subordinates may have been involved?  Did you ever

 2     investigate?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  At that moment, I could not

 4     investigate.  When I came to the corps, I know that no investigation was

 5     carried out.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not whether you could but whether

 7     you did.  Apparently you did not.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  We did not.  We did not.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P353 again.

11     This time I'll be going to page 114 of both the original and the English

12     translation.

13        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be another entry from

14     General Mladic's notebooks dated 7 June 1992.  It's regarding a meeting

15     that General Mladic had with General Milovanovic and

16     Professor Nikola Koljevic.

17             And what I'd like to focus on is a part of Professor Koljevic's

18     statements.  I believe it's towards the bottom third of the page before

19     you.  The General's notes indicate Professor Koljevic stated:

20             "A significant number of prisoners, 600 in Rajlovac.  In Ilidza,

21     there are women and children."

22             Do you see this information?

23        A.   Yes, I see it down there.

24        Q.   How is it that Professor Koljevic would be aware of the 600

25     individuals that were being held prisoner in Rajlovac?

Page 25652

 1        A.   I don't know.  That number, I mean that wasn't the total.  I

 2     don't know where this number comes from.  I mean it couldn't have been

 3     that many people.

 4        Q.   Sir, there were hundreds of people that were being kept in the

 5     barracks, correct, that you were in charge of?

 6        A.   Security protecting these people?  I mean there were -- I mean,

 7     quite a few people.  I don't know the number.  I don't know the figure.

 8        Q.   Sir, is it correct that the Rajlovac Brigade used Muslim

 9     prisoners from facilities in order to perform physical labour on the

10     front lines?

11        A.   At that moment, no one went to do work.  These people who were

12     detained that were taken care of, none of them went there.  The lines

13     were not established then.  Nothing was being done.  I mean again, I'm

14     saying there is this possibility that somebody took a man to do

15     something, but that would not mean that it had been approved, that it had

16     been asked for, that approval had been sought or given.  I mean, I cannot

17     say that.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 13835 for

20     the witness.

21        Q.   Sir, this is a 21 August 1992 report from prison warden

22     Branko Vlaco of the Serbian municipality of Vogosca.  The report states:

23             "Pursuant to the request of the Rajlovac Brigade for the purpose

24     of performing physical labour, 29 prisoners were taken out for labour."

25             Who from the Rajlovac Brigade possessed the authority to request

Page 25653

 1     these prisoners to perform physical labour?

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Authority to request or authority to release them

 3     to grant performing labour?

 4             MR. WEBER:  I'm starting [sic] to the request because the

 5     document refers to a request.

 6        Q.   So who could make such a request?

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have trouble hearing

 9     and understanding the witness.  There are too many microphones on.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one sentence:  I think that

12     these two documents do not correspond to one another.  The B/C/S and the

13     English and --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's clear, Mr. Weber, you see a list of 21 people

15     in the original, 29 people in the other.  We find different dates.  So

16     could you please take care that we have the right --

17             MR. WEBER:  I apologise that's our error in the upload.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that if you are referring to the

19     Rajlovac Brigade then that you should keep the English but find the

20     corresponding B/C/S.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, how about this.  I'll skip to a

22     different topic.  I'll come back to this topic once it can be sorted out.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Sir, I'm going to completely change topics.  I'll go back to what

Page 25654

 1     we were discussing in a little bit.

 2             In paragraph 13 of your statement, you state that you received an

 3     order to report to the corps commander and that you were appointed chief

 4     of engineers with the task of protecting the movement of our units.

 5             A simple question:  Who did you receive this order from to report

 6     as chief of engineer?

 7        A.   From the corps commander who was then Stanislav Galic.

 8        Q.   I'd like to discuss your duties a little bit more in this

 9     position.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31255.

11        Q.   This is a 26 April 1994 order from VRS deputy commander

12     Manojlo Milovanovic to various corps including the SRK.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the next page of

14     the English translation.

15        Q.   Under item 2, General Milovanovic orders:

16             "Engineer units are to be used exclusively for the purpose of

17     combat operations:  construction of military roads for supply and

18     evacuations, fortifying and setting up obstacles, in the zone of 10 km

19     from the front line."

20             Does this accurately describe your responsibilities when you were

21     in the corps command?

22        A.   I think that it does describe the duties and obligations of the

23     chief of engineers, yes.  It does correspond to those tasks and duties.

24        Q.   Since in your position, you are to be -- or the engineer units

25     were to be used exclusively for the purpose of combat operations, is it

Page 25655

 1     correct that you were aware of the types of equipment used during an

 2     operation and the construction that would be needed to ensure successful

 3     firing from a given location?

 4        A.   It says here that the main task is to secure the movement and

 5     evacuation, so it's not that there's anything unknown to me here.  I know

 6     what the duties and responsibilities were, yes.

 7        Q.   You haven't really answered my question.  In your position, were

 8     you aware of the types of equipment used during an operation and the

 9     construction that would be necessary to ensure successful firing from a

10     given location?

11        A.   Yes, I know what was needed and I know how we could do it and

12     that would be that approach.  For each specific assignment, I mean you

13     would use the most favourable means at your disposal, so I do know about

14     that bit, I mean, yes.

15             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31255 receives number P6749, Your

19     Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   In paragraph 51 of your statement, you mention an instance where

23     there was a testing of an aerial bomb in Nisici.  Could you please tell

24     us when this testing was?

25        A.   I don't know the date.  I know General Galic was there.  It was

Page 25656

 1     tested in Nisici in the theatre, and I think that was the first bomb that

 2     was tested in the area of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

 3        Q.   Let's just go step by step here.  Who else was present besides

 4     General Galic?

 5        A.   I don't know.  I know that he was there.  The artilleryman, I

 6     assumed, from the technical maintenance and repairs institute from

 7     Hadzici, they were there.  I don't know if General Mladic was there or

 8     not.  I cannot confirm either way, but I'm sure that this information is

 9     written somewhere.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31264, page

11     7, and I'd like to look at your previous testimony about this event.

12        Q.   While that's coming up, are you able to tell us whether that was

13     in 1993 or 1994, a year?

14        A.   I don't know the exact date.  It was either late 1993 or early

15     1994.  The weather was bad.  To tell you the truth, I really don't know

16     the date.  The first one that was tested was in Nisici in a specific

17     theatre.

18        Q.   Here's what you said in the Karadzic case starting at the top of

19     the page:

20             "I was at Nisici with the corps command at the Nisici plateau,

21     and then an aerial bomb was tested.  Up until then, I had no knowledge

22     that it was being manufactured.  During the test, I realised that it was

23     just an ordinary air-bomb left behind by the JNA.  It was found in the

24     warehouses.  So it happened to be in the territory of Republika Srpska or

25     in federation territory.  It was tested, and certain engines were mounted

Page 25657

 1     on it.  I was present when one such bomb was fired.  I wasn't standing at

 2     the point of where -- from where it was fired.  I was on the side.  But

 3     it was never launched, because the engine failed to start.  Up until that

 4     point, I had no information of such bombs and that certain engines were

 5     being mounted on them.  It was the engines that were the most important

 6     thing."

 7             Do you stand by this testimony?

 8        A.   Just one moment.  I don't know if the interpretation is good.  It

 9     says that the motorised were not working but the bomb was launched.  I

10     don't know if something was dropped or added in the translation but it

11     was fired.  It was fired, what I believe.  I mean that is my view of it,

12     the engine motor is the most important element and the aerial bomb has to

13     have all the key characteristics.

14        Q.   Okay.  I'm just going to -- since it's not clear now on the

15     record what you heard, I'm just going to re-read a part of it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, no.  Perhaps -- Mr. Weber, the witness now

17     tells us that the engines were working.  The first question is, if you

18     read it again to him, is whether he gave this testimony in the Karadzic

19     case.  And only after that, we would then further discuss whether it's

20     accurate or not.  But first we have to establish whether he did.

21             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   I'm going to start at line 6 of the previous testimony.  The

23     transcript records you as stating:

24             "It was tested, and certain engines were mounted on it.  I was

25     present when one such bomb was fired.  I wasn't standing at the point of

Page 25658

 1     where -- from where it was fired.  I was on the side.  But it was never

 2     launched, because the engine failed to start.  Up until that point, I had

 3     no information of such bombs and that certain engines were mounted on

 4     them.  It was the engines that were the most important thing."

 5             Sir, could you confirm whether this was your testimony in the

 6     Karadzic case?

 7        A.   In the Karadzic case, the case was that one of the engines was

 8     faulty so the expected result was not achieved.  One of them was not

 9     working.  So I don't know where this failure occurred.  I can't really

10     say.

11             At Nisici, the theatre was fired at, one of them was not working,

12     and so yes, one of them wasn't working.

13        Q.   Is what I read to you what you testified to in the Karadzic case?

14        A.   Yes, it corresponds.  Yes, it was fired then.  Yes, it does

15     correspond, I mean, yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  Judge, did you have a --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would like to have this very clear.

18             Witness, Mr. Weber read to you what is found in the transcript of

19     the Karadzic case.  Now, part of that testimony is that it was never

20     launched which may be understood as it never really fired, it never was

21     in flight.

22             On the one hand side, you say yes, that is it's what was read to

23     me corresponds to what I said in the Karadzic case, and at the same time

24     you say yes, it was fired then.

25             So let's first look at what was read to you where you said:

Page 25659

 1             "... but it was never launched because the engine failed to

 2     start."

 3             Is that what you said in the Karadzic case?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I cannot remember.  One engine was

 5     not working.  When it was launched, I mean it was launched.  But one

 6     engine was not working.  And that's that.  As to how that came about and

 7     as to how that is recorded, one needs to go back retroactively.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So your evidence now is it departed, it was in

 9     flight, but one of the engines did not start.  Is that how we have to

10     understand your testimony today?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  This may be a reason that there is a possibility

13     that the transcript in Karadzic is not perfect and perhaps it would be

14     fair to verify and if there's any mistake, to inform the Karadzic parties

15     of that as well.

16             MR. WEBER:  Sure, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Sir, in paragraphs 52 and 53 of your statement, you provide a

20     bunch of statements concerning your lack of knowledge about modified air

21     bombs.  In paragraph 52, you state:

22             "I have no knowledge of the type and quality of rocket engines

23     which were used to power these modified aerial bombs."

24             I put it to you that this statement is not true since you were

25     present at this testing in Nisici where a modified air bomb engine either

Page 25660

 1     one of them didn't work or they just failed to launch.  Do you agree?

 2        A.   I never saw that bomb once.  I was at the side.  It was launched

 3     from a launcher.  I saw when it exploded.  And then the report says that

 4     one engine was not working.  I didn't look at the engine to see what kind

 5     of an engine it was and so on.  I didn't have access.  And it's an

 6     artillery device, so I did not deal with the gist and the essence of the

 7     type of engine of that device.  General Galic was not satisfied, he's an

 8     artillery man, so he probably expected better results from that

 9     particular device.

10        Q.   You've kind of made my point.  Your statement's not accurate to

11     say you have no knowledge of the quality of rocket engines because, as

12     you just said in your answer, you are aware of an occasion where one

13     engine was not working.  So your statement is not truthful; correct?

14        A.   No, no, please don't take it that way.  Please.  I didn't -- not

15     that I didn't see it.  When the device exploded, the expected target and

16     the expected theatre and where it fell did not -- was not appropriate.

17     One part of the device was not working so it did not do its job properly,

18     so he was not satisfied.  I don't know what type of an engine it was or

19     was supposed to be.  I mean, I'm not really well versed in that kind of

20     technology.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It's time.

22             Judge Fluegge has one very short question, he says.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You explained that the aerial bomb did not

24     function properly.  Did you see it flying in any way at that point in

25     time?

Page 25661

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  No, no, I did not see it.  I was

 2     to the side.  They were at the foot of the hill.  They were firing at the

 3     neighbouring forested hill, the theatre was empty.  There was nobody

 4     there, no Serbs, no Muslims, there was security to the left and the

 5     right, so all that you see was the blast.  It did its job, but the

 6     General was not satisfied because he expected some other results and he

 7     said this was not good, so it fell short of doing the job because of the

 8     engine.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was only interested in knowing if you saw the

10     aerial bomb flying at any point in time.  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll adjourn for the day.

12             Witness, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning.  Your

13     examination will be concluded tomorrow during one of the earlier sessions

14     of tomorrow morning.  We'd like to see you back at 9.30 in the morning.

15     But I first want to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate

16     in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is

17     testimony you've given today or whether that is testimony still to be

18     given tomorrow.

19             Is that clear to you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and will resume tomorrow,

24     Wednesday, the 17th of September, 9.30 in the morning in this same

25     courtroom, I.

Page 25662

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.20 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day of

 3                           September, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.