1                           Monday, 22 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you and good morning, Your Honour.  This is

 8     case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10             No preliminaries were announced which means that we can

11     immediately continue.

12             Mr. Lukic, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, we are.  We are

14     calling Mr. Bozidar Krnojelac via videolink.

15                           [The witness enters court via videolink]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then let's establish whether the videolink is

17     functioning well.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] We can hear you and we can see

19     you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We can hear you and we can see you as well.

21             We'll start with a solemn declaration by the witness.

22             Witness, please remain seated.  But we'd like you to make the

23     solemn declaration of which the text is handed out to you.  May I invite

24     you to make that solemn declaration.

25                           WITNESS:  BOZIDAR KRNOJELAC

 1                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

 3     the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac.  You will first be

 5     examined by Mr. Lukic.  I hope you can see him.

 6             Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Krnojelac.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Could you please give your name and surname for the record?

12        A.   My name is Bozidar Krnojelac.  My father's name is

13     Milorad Krnojelac.

14        Q.   Thank you.  At one point in time, did you give a written

15     statement to representatives of the Defence of General Ratko Mladic?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could the representative of the

18     Registry please give him a copy of his statement so that he can have it

19     in front of him.

20        Q.   Is the first page of this statement in front of you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you see the signature on that first page?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

25        A.   It's my very own.

 1        Q.   Can you please look at the last page now.  Do you see a signature

 2     there?

 3        A.   It is the same signature, my very own, once again.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you the following:  If I were put the same

 5     questions to you today as those put by my colleagues, would you basically

 6     give the same answers?

 7        A.   100 per cent.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We could like to tender

10     Mr. Krnojelac's statement into evidence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please indicate the number of the

12     document.  You didn't raise it.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly, because we didn't have it on our screen so I

14     was dealing only with the hard copy.  I apologise.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then I could perhaps help you.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's 1D --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could it be 1D1653.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour that's exactly the number of the

19     statement.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we -- you've asked whether the witness

21     would give the same answers.

22             Witness, having read the statement, are the answers you have

23     given in accordance with the truth?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  100 per cent.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I here of no objections.

 1             Mr.  Registrar, the number would be?

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be D650, Your Honours.  6-5-0.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D650 is admitted into evidence.

 4             You may proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I would just read the

 6     statement summary of this witness, and I would have a couple of questions

 7     with your leave at the end.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness has been informed about the

 9     purpose of reading the summary?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Krnojelac, Bozidar was born on the 8th of

13     December in 1967 in Foca and before war in BiH he worked in Maglic

14     company.  He is a war veteran and invalid.

15             Witness will testify how incidents during strike in Focatrans

16     company led to ethnic division of Muslims and Serbs.  Intervention from

17     special police forces in company led to repression towards Serbs.

18             Witness will testify how both ethnic groups, Serbs and Muslims,

19     were armed themselves, how Crisis Staff existed on both sides, Serbian

20     led by Miro Stanic and Muslims by Saimpasic.

21             Serbian people in Foca self-organised due to necessity to defend

22     themselves, while armed conflict in Foca began on the 8th of April 1992,

23     with attack from Muslim side.  Due to clashes, Muslim civilians were

24     leaving Foca along with their armed groups.

25             Witness was engaged in village guards, along with his brothers.

 1     He was in Nikolic's unit.  He will explain his father's role in the

 2     KP Dom Foca, and he will testify that his father was appointed by

 3     Foca Municipal Crisis Staff.

 4             The situation in Foca was chaotic and out of any control.  Some

 5     individuals wanted revenge for crimes committed by Muslims, while there

 6     were many individuals or groups which could not be controlled or

 7     influenced, either by civilian or military authorities.

 8             That was the statement summary and I would have couple more

 9     questions.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you please draw my attention to

11     where it exactly says that the intervention from special police forces in

12     the company led to repression towards Serbs.  Where do we find that

13     exactly?

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's paragraph 3, but I will have couple more

15     questions on this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 3, okay, but where do we find that it led

17     to repression against Serbs?

18             MR. LUKIC:  That's why I have couple of more questions.  We need

19     some explanations on this since we heard --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you --

21             MR. LUKIC:  -- the same evidence from other witnesses in this

22     case.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if you're summarising this statement,

24     whatever additional questions you may have, I think I'm entitled to ask

25     you where we find that specific portion of what you made public as a

 1     summary of the statement.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, my understanding is that I'm actually

 3     summarising the testimony of this witness not only the statement.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you can't summarise anything we haven't heard

 5     yet.  You're supposed to summarise the statement as we -- as it was put

 6     before us and not to anticipate on evidence you still expect to be given.

 7             Do I understand therefore your answer to be what you read as a

 8     summary is not yet found in the statement in paragraph 3 as far as

 9     repression against Serbs is concerned.

10             MR. LUKIC:  That's correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That's, then, understood, and I would like to invite

12     you next time to limit yourself to what we have received in the statement

13     itself.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from any additional questions you may put to

16     the witness.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, you heard this.  You heard what

20     the Trial Chamber had to say in respect of the brief remarks I made just

21     now.  It is your statement that is evidence and what you will say by way

22     of testimony so what I say is not evidence.

23             So now let us move on to paragraph 3.  It's about what happened

24     in Focatrans.  Can you tell us briefly what happened in Focatrans?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have trouble

 1     understanding what the witness is saying.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I seek the assistance of Madam Registrar at

 3     the other side of the videolink so as to ensure that the witness is

 4     speaking loud enough and that the microphone is close enough to him for

 5     the interpreters in The Hague to hear what he says.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I have brought the

 7     microphone closer to the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness, you are asked whether you could tell

 9     us what happened in Focatrans.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I started by making an

11     introduction.  It was a transportation company for transporting

12     passengers and goods, and both Serbs and Muslims worked there normally,

13     and there was a misunderstanding between the director and the Serb side

14     and he -- and he, I mean, how do I put this?  He treated his colleagues

15     better than Serbs and then they went on strike, and then in fact this was

16     a -- an incident at republican level.  And special units were called in,

17     special forces to suppress this strike.

18             And then this incident occurred; namely, that they removed the

19     Serbs to one side and then there was this clash between the police and

20     these Serb forces, I mean these Serb people in town, and indeed they

21     applied force.  Mr. Vikic's special forces did.  And there were other

22     police from elsewhere, so it wasn't only special forces.  There were also

23     police from elsewhere.

24             So that indeed caused revolt and divisions between the Serb and

25     Muslim populations in Foca.

 1             It went on for a few days.  It wasn't just one day.  It went on

 2     for several days.  How do I put this?  Gatherings were not allowed.  More

 3     than three persons could not move about together.  Every night, shops and

 4     other establishments were searched, so life basically became impossible

 5     in town.  And then this D-Day came, if I can put it that way, and then

 6     they pushed the entire population that went out into town that day

 7     towards the bus station.  And then, of course, there was quite a bit of

 8     commotion.  There were a lot of people who were in the streets, and then

 9     they started beating us up and all of these things then happened.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Let me ask you whether you personally had anything to do with

12     what was happening?

13        A.   I was right by the bus station when the beatings started and the

14     tear gas and the hitting and everything else.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us move to paragraph 4 briefly.

17        Q.   You speak about arming of both peoples.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you have any direct knowledge about arming, and if so what is

20     that knowledge?

21        A.   Direct knowledge precisely, because I worked as a waiter in a

22     restaurant and there were quite a few people who would come there.  And

23     generally speaking, it is in restaurants and coffee bars that people talk

24     about most things.  And then I had contacts on both sides, and I heard

25     this talk about both Muslims and Serbs being armed.  It was the SDS that

 1     was arming the Serbs and the SDA that was arming the Muslims.  So I know,

 2     Saimpasic, Sajo, was mentioned, and we all know him very well.  He had

 3     some fruit and vegetable shops in Foca.  And what they did, I think, was

 4     perfectly normal.  The two sides secured their own people.

 5        Q.   Paragraph 6 now.  You say that the Serb population in Foca

 6     started to organise themselves by forming village guards?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   As for this self-organisation, who was in charge?

 9        A.   Again, it was the political parties and the leaders of the

10     parties in the SDA and the SDS.

11        Q.   At the time, was there a Crisis Staff that had been established

12     on the Muslim side, on the Serb side, and can you tell us where these

13     Crisis Staffs were?

14        A.   On the eve of the war, yes, I cannot say whether it was a month

15     or two or three months beforehand.  The Muslims had a Crisis Staff and

16     the Serbs had a Crisis Staff.  The Muslim Crisis Staff was in Focatrans

17     and the Serb Crisis Staff was in Cerezluk in a private home.  I don't

18     know whose house it was, but I know that it was in this privately owned

19     house for sure.

20        Q.   Is that the same Focatrans?

21        A.   It is one and the same company.  At the station, yes, yes.

22        Q.   Paragraph 8 now, please.  You say that your house burned down

23     during the fighting.  When did the fighting break out in Foca?  We

24     already have that in paragraph 6.  You say on the 8th of April there was

25     the first major armed conflict and then you were -- actually, how long

 1     were you in your house?

 2        A.   On the 8th, sometime, say, around 10.00 or 11.00, the first

 3     shooting was heard.  I was in the house and there was a lull in the

 4     shooting.  I was there until the 11th and then we moved out of the house

 5     because we realised that all the other Serb houses had been left and we

 6     went to Cerezluk where Arsenije and Sretenije, my uncles have houses.

 7     That's where we went.  And my house was torched.  Later on when the

 8     Muslims were withdrawing -- actually, if necessary I can explain why we

 9     moved out.

10        Q.   Tell us briefly.

11        A.   There was this old school, Ivan Goran Kovacic, by my house that

12     had been moved to another location; that is to say, it had been

13     abandoned.  Now, that is where the Muslim units gathered.  Some wore

14     green berets and that's why we called them green berets.  Probably there

15     were people from elsewhere as well.  Then they started gathering there,

16     that institution, and then we felt insecure.  Quite simply we were afraid

17     for our own lives, and on the evening of the 11th we went to Cerezluk.

18        Q.   Do you know approximately when your house was torched, do you

19     have any information?

20        A.   Two or three days later, when they were withdrawing towards the

21     exit, if I can put it that way, Donje Polje and the bridge, the other

22     bridge by the KP Dom, and they withdrew towards Gorazde, the population,

23     the soldiers.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  Two or three days later, could you

 1     explore with the witness two or three days after what, exactly?

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, you've heard Judge Orie.  Three or four days

 4     later, after what?  After the conflict broke out or after you left?

 5        A.   After I left the house.  Of course the house was not torched

 6     while we were there.  It was torched after we left.  I mean if the

 7     gentleman did not understand what I was saying, well, the

 8     Presiding Judge.  When we [as interpreted] were withdrawing, because

 9     Muslim forces control that area, so during the withdrawal it wasn't only

10     my house that was torched but 10 or 12 other ethnic Serb homes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Only I would correct the transcript at page 10, line

12     24, it says "when we were withdrawing."  The witness was all the time

13     talking about the withdrawal of Muslim forces.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You can seek to have it verified but you can't

15     change the transcript, Mr. Lukic.  But you can verify whether the

16     transcript accurately reflects what the witness said.

17             MR. LUKIC:  The witness already said.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I was just going to ask that what the witness said

19     during that exchange be reflected on the transcript.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. LUKIC:  But I can -- since it's not in the transcript, I can

23     ask the witness --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the witness

25     when other people are speaking and when other microphones are on.

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, as I was speaking what did you actually say?

 3        A.   I did not say that we were withdrawing.  I was saying that the

 4     Muslim forces were withdrawing.  We were moving out.  We moved out of the

 5     house.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I then ask for some clarification.

 8             You say you moved out or you had moved out because it was three

 9     days after you had moved out that your house was burning, was put on

10     fire.  And you are talking about the Muslims withdrawing at that point in

11     time.  Does that mean that you had moved out, Muslims were withdrawing,

12     that the space was therefore more or less empty or at least not occupied

13     by either Muslims or Serbs?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I would really have to ask you now

15     which place you have in mind, my house or ...

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you had moved out from where you lived.

17     The Muslims withdrawing put your house on fire --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, but they were withdrawing --

19     let me be clear.  They did not withdraw that day when we moved out.  I

20     said two or three days later, after that fighting.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not contesting that in any way.  My question

22     was:  Does that mean that you had moved out, the Muslims a couple of days

23     later withdrew.  Does that mean that the area where your house was was

24     under control of none of the parties to the conflict?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I cannot say that it was no-man's

 1     land.  It was the territory held by Muslims, but my house was empty.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But you also tell us that they withdrew.  And my

 3     understanding is that --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Three days after the fighting.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   When your house was set on fire, were other houses set on fire

 8     too?

 9        A.   I've already said another 10 or 12 houses were torched,

10     precisely -- that's an area where the boundary is, the boundary with the

11     Muslim majority area under the Celovina hill, that's approximately the

12     location.

13        Q.   It's not on the record, to whom did these torched houses belong?

14        A.   They were all Serb houses.

15        Q.   The Judge wanted to know at one point when the Muslims were

16     withdrawing after three or four days of fighting.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Those houses were torched.  So for a while was this area empty?

19     How did the Muslims know that Serbs had moved out of that area?

20        A.   There was fighting.  The area was not empty.  And as the Serbs

21     advanced, the Muslims were withdrawing.

22        Q.   What happened with the majority of the Muslim civilian

23     population?

24        A.   We have to go back to the beginning at this point.  Just before

25     the fighting began, before the 8th of April, perhaps a month before that

 1     there was already talk that a conflict was afoot but nobody knew exactly

 2     what would happen.  And the Muslims and Serbs went back to the villages

 3     where they had come from.  Some people had come back to their villages

 4     and those who stayed, everybody listened to --

 5                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 6             MR. LUKIC:  It seems that we lost the connection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I verify with representatives of the registry

 8     on both sides whether the --

 9                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We will wait for a second to see whether it can be

11     re-established.

12             Madam Registrar on the other side, could you confirm that you can

13     hear and see us again?  We don't hear you at this moment, although we can

14     see you.

15             Madam Registrar, could you speak a few words so as to see whether

16     the audio connection is functioning?  Until now, we have not heard

17     anything.  If you can hear me, could you just check that your microphone

18     on your side is switched on.

19             Could we check again whether the audio is now functioning?

20                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that the system will be restarted.

22             We're still waiting for the connection to be functional again,

23     but apparently nothing happens.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We will take a short break.  Everyone is requested

 1     to remain standby until the connection has been re-established.  We take

 2     the break not sine die but sine hora.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.17 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we establish whether the videolink is

 7     functioning again?  Could you confirm that --

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we can hear you and we can see you

 9     from this side.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We can see you, we can hear you.

11             Mr. Lukic may proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, can you hear us?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   I asked you when the Muslim forces were withdrawing from Foca,

16     what happened with the majority of the population, the civilian

17     population?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

19        Q.   You started speaking about it extensively.  The people from Foca,

20     did they start moving with the Muslim forces that were from elsewhere?

21        A.   Can I give a more extensive explanation because I really need to

22     explain.

23        Q.   We haven't got much time.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:  I think it's probably a little bit late now but the

 1     question appears leading to me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it was.  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You started giving us an extensive explanation?

 5        A.   Extensive remarks.

 6        Q.   Yes.  Tell us briefly then what happened with civilians of Muslim

 7     ethnicity?

 8        A.   I started telling you about it.  I started saying how in the

 9     first part, part of them went to their villages.  The part that remained,

10     we all listened to the media, we had reporters who were saying that over

11     5.000 Serb Chetniks were coming, and of course this revolted and

12     intimidated the Muslim people, so they withdrew towards Gorazde with

13     their own units.  That's it briefly.  The journalist's name is

14     Semso Tucakovic.  He made statements like that and they were absolutely

15     incorrect.  So he just created more confusion and people were terrified,

16     but really there were no such units and it was very few.  Well, this

17     wasn't your question but there were very few people there who came from

18     the Serb guard and the White Eagles.  And he was exaggerating as if it's

19     5.000.  There aren't 5.000 people in Foca who could fight let alone 5.000

20     volunteers and Serb Chetniks as he called them.

21        Q.   Once you've mentioned Semso Tucakovic.  Tell us what was his

22     ethnicity and where did he broadcast from?

23        A.   Well, I think from the name it's obvious he was Muslim.  Whether

24     he was from Sarajevo or somewhere else, I don't know, but he certainly

25     wasn't broadcasting from Foca.  He may have been getting his information

 1     from elsewhere, from outside.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.  One or two questions to clarify.

 3             How many White Eagles were there and how many Serb guards members

 4     were there?  Could you tell us?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It's a question for me?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's a question for you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I'm sure there were no more

 8     than 100, certainly not over a hundred.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And how did you know?  Did you see them?  What's the

10     source of your knowledge?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I saw both of them, both of them.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Where did you see them?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The White Eagles were at the

14     KP Dom and the Serb guards were in town.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you see them?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I saw them at the beginning

17     of the war, after the 20th of April onwards.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] I will pick up on what Judge Orie just asked and

21     it has to do with paragraph 9 of your statement.  Did you personally go

22     to the KP Dom, to the penitentiary facility, and in what capacity?

23        A.   I went to the KP Dom in the capacity of protecting my father.

24        Q.   At the KP Dom?

25        A.   Yes.

 1        Q.   What was the role of the White Eagles whom you said you saw

 2     around the KP Dom?

 3        A.   When I got there to the KP Dom, they were already inside and they

 4     were already holding some prisoners.  They were in the compound, in the

 5     inner compound of the KP Dom when I arrived.

 6        Q.   What kind of uniform did they wear?

 7        A.   They had the White Eagle insignia on the left sleeve, the uniform

 8     was camouflage, some of them had caps, others didn't.  Those who had caps

 9     had a cockade on it.

10        Q.   Did they have JNA insignia?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Who was bringing prisoners into the KP Dom?

13        A.   The Serb guards and men from the Territorial Defence.  The

14     general population, I don't know in what capacity they operated.  People

15     from the Territorial Defence, but mainly the Serb guards.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it correct also that you said the White Eagles

17     had prisoners in the KP Dom?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  When I arrived with my

19     father after the 20th, there were already some prisoners in the KP Dom.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask you, you said you went on from the 20th

22     of April to the KP Dom.  You saw White Eagles and Serb guards there.

23     That was well after or was it at the time the Muslim population was

24     leaving or had left?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The Muslims had left.  Most of the

 1     Muslims had left the town.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So therefore, how many Serb guards or White Eagles

 3     there were which, as you said erroneously, led them to leave, you did not

 4     see before they left the White Eagles or the Serb guards.  Could you

 5     confirm that or do you disagree?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I can confirm that they were there

 7     even before because when I left my home, went to Cerezluk, the Serb

 8     guards were there and I also found them in the KP Dom.  I don't know when

 9     the White Eagles arrived but the Serb guards were already in Foca on the

10     11th, that I know, maybe they had arrived even earlier, I can't be sure,

11     but on the 11th they were certainly there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But you earlier told us that at the most there was

13     100.  How could you know that --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Not more than 100, certainly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But how did you know that well before the 20th

16     or did you travel through the area?  What made you know that there were

17     not more than 100.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I left my home on the 11th and

19     went to Cerezluk.  I saw them up there.  I met them there.  They had

20     uniforms with the lettering "Serb guards" on the uniform.  That's how I

21     could distinguish them from us locals.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But whether there were others which were a bit

23     further away from where you were, how could you exclude that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I'm not excluding that.  I said

25     approximately that was the number.  I didn't count them.  It's what I

 1     saw.  It's what I think, that there were no more than a hundred.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what you personally observed and what --

 3     and that's what you think they were in total.  Thank you.  I heard but I

 4     may have been --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  They rotated every -- one group

 6     stayed for 15 days, then they would leave.  Another group would come to

 7     replace them.  It went on for a month.  But they rotated, they didn't

 8     come all together at the same time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Earlier, I may have been the overlapping

10     speaker, but when I put it to you that the number you mentioned was what

11     you personally saw, that you confirmed that.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And that you said you couldn't exclude that there

14     would have been others which you didn't see.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Foca is a very small town.  If

16     there had been more of them, they would have been seen.  I'm quite sure

17     there were not more than that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19             I'm also looking at the clock by the way but we had a short break

20     and Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you as well.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was the ethnicity of the prisoners in the

22     KP Dom?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  You mean when I just arrived or

24     generally speaking in the KP Dom?

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have told us that there were prisoners who

 1     were kept by the White Eagles in the KP Dom.  At that time when you were

 2     talking about them, what was their ethnicity.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  There were both Serbs and Muslims,

 4     there were prisoners from before the war who were still in the KP Dom and

 5     new prisoners were Muslims.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask an additional question in that respect.

 8             How do you know about the prisoners, how many were there and how

 9     many Muslim prisoners were there?  How did you know that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I did not say any number.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you for the number.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know.  I never went into

13     that part of the prison so I don't know how many there were, either said.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How do you know that there were Muslim prisoners?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I was present when they were

16     brought in.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many prisoners being brought in did you see?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I didn't stand at the door

19     counting them, I really don't know.  I was with my father in his office.

20     The entrance is not really close to the office, so I don't know the exact

21     number.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  When you saw these prisoners being brought in,

23     how do you know that they were Muslims?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Again, we're coming back to the

25     same thing.  Foca is a small town.  We know each other, all of us.  There

 1     were my friends and acquaintances among them.  Everybody knew who was

 2     Serb, Croat, or Muslim.  That's the kind of locality it is.

 3     Everything -- everybody knows everything.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand that.  But were also Serbs brought

 5     in when you were at your father's office?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I must say that once the Serb

 7     guards brought in their own soldier.  He must have been making trouble or

 8     something, but there were also some Serbs brought in by the military

 9     police because they didn't want to respond to the call-up.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I really can't give you any

12     numbers.  I don't know.  Not many.  Not many of those who did not respond

13     to the mobilisation.  About ten, not more, while I was there.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, how much you think you would still need?

16             MR. LUKIC:  Couple minutes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we continue the

18     examination-in-chief and -- but I have one question.

19             You said Serbs were brought in and you saw them being brought in.

20     A while ago, you said Serb and Muslims, there were prisoners from before

21     the war who were still in the KP Dom and new prisoners were Muslims.

22             So is that now corrected that new prisoners included Serbs as

23     well?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, yes, yes.  If I can clear

25     this up, there were a few Serbs among the new prisoners too.

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any names of those?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I can't remember.  It was 20 years

 3     ago.  You mean among the Serbs or the Muslims?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Among the Serbs.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Jovica Kostovic, he used to be a

 6     teacher of mine.  Aleksandar Eric, a neighbour from my street.

 7     Biogradska Street.  There were another ten or so.  Not many.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't hear anything.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Just a moment.  The Trial Chamber is conferring.

14             When you were talking about Muslim prisoners, you mentioned the

15     White Eagles.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the Serb guards.  The White Eagles were guarding them and the

18     Serb guards were bringing them in?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you said Serb prisoners were brought in by the military

21     police?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes, that's what I said.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Was there a military barracks of the JNA in Foca?

24        A.   There was a military barracks in the 1960s and then it was

25     relocated in Visegrad.  There remained, however, one unit in Ustikolina.

 1     Not really a unit, 20 or three -- 30 men guarding the depots in

 2     Ustikolina.  There were no JNA troops in Foca.

 3        Q.   How far is Ustikolina from Foca?

 4        A.   12 or 13 kilometres.  Five minutes by car.

 5        Q.   And at Livade, what kind of an installation is that?

 6        A.   The old barracks from the 1960s.  The old barracks was at

 7     Donje Polje with a depot holding wartime commodities reserves, if you

 8     know what that is, edible oil, sugar, flour, et cetera, and JNA uniforms

 9     were kept there as well.

10        Q.   How far from the town is Livade?

11        A.   3 kilometres.

12        Q.   You mentioned members of the White Eagles and the Serb guards

13     today.  How did they treat the Serb population in Foca?

14        A.   I don't really have a nice word for them.  They were really

15     aggressive towards Muslims and Serbs alike.  They yelled at us.  They --

16     they were shooting.  I really can't say anything nice about them.

17        Q.   Mr. Krnojelac, thank you.  That is all we have for you at this

18     moment.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             Before we take the break, one or two more questions,

21     Mr. Krnojelac.  Where did these White Eagles and Serb guards come from?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  They came across Pljevlje from

23     Serbia.  Because Foca is a tripartite border between Montenegro, Serbia,

24     and Bosnia.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 1             We'll take a break, Mr. Krnojelac.  We will resume at 11.00.

 2                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first establish whether the videolink

 7     functions well.

 8             Madam Registrar, I can see you but I've not heard you yet.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I hereby confirm

10     that we can see and we can hear you.  Can you hear us?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We can hear you as well.

12             Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  Mr. Traldi

13     is counsel for the Prosecution.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

17        Q.   Good morning, sir.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   This is the second time you've testified; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You testified in the case against your father; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, you told the truth in your testimony in that case; right?

24        A.   100 per cent, and I stand by each and every word I said.

25        Q.   During the war, was your nickname Mika?

 1        A.   Mika.

 2        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, I'd like to look at the chronology of your

 3     evidence.  You described leaving your home and going to Cerezluk, and I'd

 4     like to pick up when you got there.  You joined the village guards in

 5     Cerezluk; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you first began standing guard duty on or about the 12th of

 8     April, 1992; right?

 9        A.   Well, roughly, yes.  Perhaps not the first day but the third or

10     fourth day when we moved out of our house and came to our uncle's.  But

11     let me say this straight away, we were not forced to do some -- how do I

12     put this?  Out of respect for our relatives, we wanted to take turns with

13     them so that they wouldn't have to do it all the time.  Out of

14     solidarity, if you can put it that way.

15        Q.   In fact, it was a relative of yours named Vitomir who had come

16     back from guard duty and you and your brother Spomenko both went to join

17     him; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you stood guard at the water reservoir; right?

20        A.   That's the old reservoir, the old water works, yes.

21        Q.   Now you and the other guards had M-48 rifles at this time;

22     correct?

23        A.   Not everybody.  Only Vitomir did.  My brother and I did not have

24     a rifle.

25        Q.   When you were standing guard duty, would one of the other guards

 1     leave you their rifle so that you would also be armed?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, your commander in these guards was a man named Dragan

 4     Vujicic; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, on the 20th of April he came to the reservoir and told you

 7     that you didn't need to secure the reservoir anymore; right?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And a few days before this, what you called in your previous

10     testimony, "the liberation of Foca by the Serbs," had been completed,

11     hadn't it?

12        A.   Well, we can put it that way, yes.

13        Q.   So Commander Vujicic told you to go to the secondary school in

14     Aladza to get new assignments; right?

15        A.   Yes, because there was mobilisation, that is to say, everybody

16     had to report there in order to be given assignments, or rather it's the

17     Territorial Defence that was established.  So everybody had to report for

18     this mobilisation, of course those of military age, men, 18 to 60.  There

19     was work obligation there as well, but everybody had to report.

20        Q.   And you were mobilised into the Territorial Defence at that time;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You were received there by a man named Dragan Lakovic also known

24     as Prle, P-r-l-e; right?

25        A.   Lakovic, yes.

 1        Q.   And you were mobilised specifically into an intervention platoon

 2     of the Territorial Defence, weren't you?

 3        A.   Correct, yes.

 4        Q.   And Mr. Vujicic, who had been your commander in the guards, was

 5     also made commander of that platoon, wasn't he?

 6        A.   Not that one.  I was deployed in another platoon, not his.

 7     Although after that, the two platoons were brought together.  It was

 8     about 20, 10 in one, 10 in the other, and afterwards, it was one and the

 9     same platoon.

10        Q.   And it was Mr. Lakovic who appointed Vujicic as commander; right?

11        A.   Believe me that I don't know who appointed him.

12        Q.   Now, there was an intervention platoon being formed attached to

13     every one of the battalions that was being formed at the time; right?

14        A.   I don't know about battalions at all.  There were several

15     intervention platoons.

16        Q.   Well I'd like to look at one part of your testimony in your

17     father's trial.

18             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have 65 ter 31316, e-court page 55.

19     This is transcript page 7410.

20        Q.   Okay.  So beginning at line 12, you were asked:

21             "How was it that Vujicic was your commander?  Who appointed him?"

22             And you answered:

23             "He was appointed at the secondary school centre --"

24        A.   This is the English version.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Carefully listen, Witness, because there's no B/C/S

 1     version of this.  It will be interpreted for you.  Carefully listen while

 2     Mr. Traldi is reading the English version.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Okay.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I'll begin at the question again, sir.

 5        Q.   You were asked:

 6             "How was it that Vujicic was your commander?  Who appointed him?"

 7             And you answered:

 8             "He was appoint at the secondary school centre by the man who

 9     gave assignments, Lakovic, the one I mentioned.  I don't know if his name

10     was Dragan, but his nickname was Prle for sure.  I don't know who

11     appointed him guards' commander, because I came there only on the 12th.

12     Maybe he was elected by the others.  In any case, Lakovic appointed him

13     commander of the Intervention Platoon, and every battalion had an

14     Intervention Platoon, and we were the Intervention Platoon attached to

15     the 1st Battalion."

16             Now, does this previous testimony of yours refresh your

17     recollection as to whether Dragan Lakovic appointed Mr. Vujicic as the

18     commander of the Intervention Platoon?

19        A.   I'm saying once again there weren't any battalions.  I don't

20     know.  I don't see that I said battalions then, either.  There's no

21     chance of any battalions being there.  Lakovic was certainly at the high

22     school.  Now, whether he appointed him or not, I was not present, so I

23     really cannot say with any precision that it was exactly that man that

24     gave that assignment to him.  He made the decisions, he had the lists.

25     That's the work he did.  Now, who appointed him, I cannot say, but there

 1     weren't any battalions.  And I don't know how come that is there.  I

 2     don't think I ever said 1st Battalion because I never knew of any such

 3     thing.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we have an opportunity to verify the audio

 5     recording of your testimony where the transcript, apart from the

 6     appointment, clearly states that you would have said:  "... and we were

 7     the intervention platoon attached to the 1st Battalion."

 8             If you say that must be wrong, then we might verify that, whether

 9     you said it or not.

10             I would like to invite you --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Fine.  Fine.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to invite you to carefully try to

13     remember whether there platoon was attached to a battalion, whether there

14     were battalions or not, and we'll in any way verify the audio of that

15     session.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Now, from the secondary school centre, sir, you went to Livade?

19             MR. TRALDI:  And that's L-i-v-a-d-e.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   You went there to be issued weapons and uniforms; correct?

23        A.   Correct, exactly.

24        Q.   And you personally were issued and automatic rifle; right?

25        A.   Exactly.

 1        Q.   Now, in Livade was in the Territorial Defence warehouse that you

 2     went to to receive these supplies?

 3        A.   Exactly.  I mentioned that.  So the war reserves and the

 4     warehouse with the uniforms, yes.

 5        Q.   And did you hear that around this time, there had been Muslim

 6     civilians detained at the warehouse?

 7        A.   Yes.  There were Serbs and Muslims, precisely from my street,

 8     from this high rise building.  It was called the blue sky scraper, the

 9     Serb guards brought them there.  Yes, there was shooting there.

10        Q.   And did you hear that the Muslims who were being held at the

11     warehouse were later taken to KP Dom?

12        A.   Yes, possibly.

13        Q.   Now, that same day, the 20th of April, 1992 --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you seek to verify whether

15     possibly he heard or whether it possibly has happened but he has heard

16     it?

17             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

18        Q.   Sorry, sir.  Going back to my previous question, I asked if you

19     had heard that the Muslims that were being held at the Territorial

20     Defence warehouse were later taken to KP Dom and you answered:

21             "Yes, possibly."

22             What did you mean was possible?

23        A.   It is possible, yes.  Well, it's possible they were taken to the

24     KP Dom.  I did not take them.  I don't know.  But it is possible that

25     they were taken to the KP Dom.

 1        Q.   My question, sir, was specifically:  Did you hear that they had

 2     been taken there?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Now, that same day, the 20th of April, 1992, you discovered that

 5     your father had been made the temporary warden at KP Dom; correct?

 6        A.   It's not that I discovered it.  My father showed me the decision

 7     appointing him warden of the KP Dom, the decision made by the board.

 8        Q.   When you say "by the board," serving as temporary warden was his

 9     work obligation; correct?

10        A.   Correct, I said board but it was actually Executive Board.  Now

11     it has a different name but it's one and the same thing.  It's the

12     Executive Board of the municipality.  It is the municipality, after all.

13        Q.   Now, you then went to your commanding officer and asked for

14     permission to go to KP Dom with your father; right?

15        A.   Exactly.

16        Q.   And you continued to go to KP Dom for about 20 days; right?

17        A.   Well, approximately, I don't know the exact number of days but

18     approximately, yes.

19        Q.   And you'd be there from 7.00 a.m. to 3.00 p.m.; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you continued doing this until about the 15th of May, 1992;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, because I was called up to go to Preljuca then for some

24     activity there, some operation there.

25        Q.   I'll ask you about that in a moment.  But before I do, during the

 1     time you were at KP Dom, you remained on Territorial Defence duty; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you would have your rifle with you that had been issued to

 4     you by the Territorial Defence; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You just mentioned that you left because you were called to go to

 7     Preljuca, was it Commander Vujicic who called you to go?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Who was it?

10        A.   Cosovic, nicknamed Cosa, because we were one unit then.

11        Q.   And that unit was the Dragan Nikolic detachment; right?

12        A.   Later on, it became known as the Dragan Nikolic unit.

13        Q.   Now, when you returned from the front at Preljuca, you were

14     living in the Zelengora hotel with your parents; right?

15        A.   Yes, on the top of the Zelengora hotel.

16        Q.   And there were Serb forces that were also headquartered in that

17     hotel; right?

18        A.   No.  No.  There were some soldiers there but it's not that the

19     command was there.

20        Q.   Well, this Chamber heard the evidence of a witness who was in the

21     Dragan Nikolic detachment, a man named Veselinko Simovic in July, and at

22     transcript page 24392, he was asked:

23             "Where was your detachment headquartered?"

24             And he responded:

25             "In a room in the Zelengora hotel in Foca."

 1             So the Dragan Nikolic attachment was headquartered in a room in

 2     the hotel, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Well, if Cosa was the entire command, then that's it, but

 4     nobody -- I mean only part of the detachment, those who were from

 5     villages, they stayed at a hotel.  The others stayed at their homes.  So

 6     if just one man is the entire command, then that would be it.

 7        Q.   Now, you were being asked in your Krnojelac testimony about

 8     someone else, and I just want to pull up that portion of your testimony.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  If we would have 65 ter 31316, page 88, please.

10        Q.   And you were being asked about a Branko Banovic nicknamed Bota.

11     Do you remember him?

12        A.   Yes.  He was also wounded during the war, he's an invalid.

13        Q.   Now, you were asked as follows:

14             "He was in the Dragan Nikolic Unit during the car, right, in June

15     1992?"

16             And you --

17        A.   [Overlapping speakers]

18        Q.   Sir --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We only heard parts of

20     what the witness said.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Sir, the answer you provided to that question was:

23             "I do not remember that unit having existed before my accident.

24     It was established, as far as I know, on the basis of what my friends

25     told me, only afterwards."

 1             Do you recall giving that evidence?

 2        A.   And that is correct.  That's why I'm saying that the unit was

 3     named Dragan Nikolic after a soldier from that unit who got killed, but

 4     that happened only after my wounding.  So what I said is correct.

 5        Q.   So I'm trying to understand your evidence.  You state in your

 6     statement that you were a member of Dragan Nikolic's detachment, don't

 7     you?

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And it might be useful if the witness could be

 9     pointed to paragraphs 10 and 15 of his statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you please not interrupt Mr. Traldi,

11     because whatever you say then may not be interpreted to us because the

12     interpreters are unable to interpret two persons --

13             THE WITNESS: [Overlapping speakers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- speaking at the same time.

15             I note, however, that you, while I gave you this advice, that you

16     interrupted me as well.

17             Please wait until the speaker has finished before you say

18     anything.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I do apologise.  It won't happen

20     again.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   So where you say in paragraphs 10 and 15 of your statement that

23     you were in Dragan Nikolic's detachment, the detachment wasn't -- is it

24     your evidence that the detachment was or was not called that while you

25     were in it?

 1        A.   At that time, it wasn't called that.  It was named only after my

 2     wounding when the Army of Republika Srpska was established while it was

 3     the Territorial Defence.  We were an intervention platoon, Vujicic and

 4     Branislav Cosovic nicknamed Cosa.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd suggest to you that the evidence you provided in your

 6     answer to this question in the Krnojelac trial was incomplete, that you

 7     suggested that the unit had not existed before you were wounded when, in

 8     fact, the unit did, in your evidence today, exist before you were wounded

 9     and was simply renamed later.  Your evidence was incomplete in that

10     previous case; right?

11        A.   Well, if that's what you say, but I stand by each and every word

12     I said then and now.

13        Q.   Now, you said the unit was named the Dragan Nikolic unit a moment

14     ago at temporary transcript page 35 lines 1 and 2.  You said it was named

15     the Dragan Nikolic unit "only after your wounding when the Army of

16     Republika Srpska was established."  The unit became, in fact, part of the

17     Army of Republika Srpska, didn't it?

18        A.   Yes, that's when it got that name.

19        Q.   And while you were being deployed at this time in May and June of

20     1992, you were deployed to a number of places, and I apologise in advance

21     for my pronunciation of them, but the places you were deployed included

22     Repeitor, Zebina Suma, Osanice, and Tjeniste; right?

23        A.   Osanice, the relay Preljuca was on that side.  They were at

24     Preljuca and they were at Tjeniste where I was wounded.

25        Q.   Was it Commander Cosovic who would give you your orders to go to

 1     these locations?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you know who he was getting his orders from?

 4        A.   I really don't know.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the last part of

 6     the answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what you said after you said "I

 8     really don't know."  What did you then add?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I was a private, a soldier.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Now, Tjeniste is where you were injured; right?

12        A.   Kosot hill in the area of Tjeniste.

13        Q.   And you were deployed there at Tjeniste together with

14     Jovan Vukovic's unit; right?

15        A.   Jovan Vukovic already had his unit over there.

16        Q.   And he was in command there generally speaking; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   After you were injured, you were taken to Foca hospital; right?

19        A.   That day, yes, and the next day I was transported to the military

20     medical academy, the VMA.

21        Q.   And you were transported there by helicopter; right?

22        A.   Right.

23        Q.   You were treat in the military medical academy for a time and you

24     were then transferred to the Rudo Institute; right?

25        A.   I was at the VMA for a month before being transferred to Rudo.

 1        Q.   And you stayed at Rudo until 25 December 1992; right?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   It was only then that you returned to Foca.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   At that time, your parents were living in an apartment in

 6     Gornje Polje; right?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   And that apartment was owned by KP Dom Foca; correct?

 9        A.   It was near the KP Dom and previously a Muslim inhabited that

10     apartment, yes.  Whether he was employed at the KP Dom, I don't know.

11        Q.   That Muslim was Pasa Granov, right, who had held the tenant's

12     rights to the apartment?

13        A.   No, no.  That's an apartment I received temporarily from the

14     municipality and I still live in that apartment.

15        Q.   And that apartment was downstairs from your parents' apartment;

16     right?

17        A.   No.  It's in a completely different neighbourhood.

18        Q.   It was, however, refurbished, right, to accommodate your needs

19     because of your injuries?

20        A.   You could say that it was, yes.

21        Q.   Now, you approached the head of the municipal government to

22     arrange that; right?

23        A.   Whether he was the president, I don't know, yes, he was the boss.

24        Q.   And when you named this person, you're referring to

25     Radojica Mladjenovic, aren't you?

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   And at the time -- sorry.  Before you moved into the apartment,

 3     you went to look at it on one occasion; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you found people there working on the adaptation of the

 6     apartment, didn't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   One of the people you found working was a man named Atif; right?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   Now, he was being held at the KP Dom at that time, wasn't he?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And he was a Muslim; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Your brother Spomenko was also later given an apartment that

15     formerly belonged to a Muslim; right?

16        A.   Yes.  Those were apartments that belonged to the municipality in

17     the sense that the municipality decided what to do with them, and they

18     were inhabited by Muslims.

19        Q.   Now --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, part of this problem may have been the

21     result of you using the word "formerly belonged to" where the witness

22     earlier stated that the Muslim had had tenant's rights.  Should we

23     clearly distinguish?  So I think if you would have phrased the question

24     in accordance with what the witness testified, he would not have had to

25     correct what you suggested to him.

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I take the point, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you now about some events that occurred in

 3     Foca while you were gone.

 4             Now, in paragraph 14 of your statement, you say that:

 5             "On several occasions, the Muslims left Foca for reasons known to

 6     them and at their own request wishing to go to the territory entirely

 7     governed by Muslim authorities."

 8             Now, many of the Muslims left while you were not in Foca; right?

 9        A.   Most of them left while I was still there and what part of them

10     remained left later when I was no longer there.

11        Q.   And setting the proportions aside for a moment, by the time you

12     returned in December, they were almost all gone, weren't they?

13        A.   90 per cent, perhaps even more.

14        Q.   Now, you say in paragraph 16 of your statement that there were

15     platoons under the command of Zaga, Gojko, Pero, Coso.  And you say,

16     "None of these were in any manner connected to the VRS but rather

17     functioned independently."  Now, the platoon of Coso's that you mention

18     is the Dragan Nikolic unit; right?

19        A.   It was later called Dragan Nikolic, yes.

20        Q.   And you testified this morning that it became part of the VRS;

21     right?

22        A.   I don't understand the question.

23        Q.   You testified a couple of moments ago that the Dragan Nikolic

24     unit became part of the VRS.  Do you recall giving that testimony?

25        A.   I said when the Army of Republika Srpska was created, the unit

 1     was then given the name Dragan Nikolic but it was not while I was there,

 2     before I was wounded.  Until the 22nd, there was no VRS and no unit

 3     called Dragan Nikolic.  It got that name afterwards.

 4        Q.   So just to avoid any ambiguity, I put to you that that unit did,

 5     in fact, become part of the Army of Republika Srpska.  Do you have any

 6     information as to whether that's true or not?

 7        A.   That's not true.  I was in that unit and I know exactly what we

 8     were called.  When I left the unit and went to Belgrade, only then did it

 9     get the name Dragan Nikolic, by the man who had died fighting for that

10     unit.  His name was Dragan Nikolic.

11        Q.   Now, the Chamber heard testimony from Witness Simovic, again,

12     that the Dragan Nikolic detachment received orders from Marko Kovac, the

13     commander of the Foca tactical group, and that Kovac reported on the

14     unit's activities to his superiors.  Do you have any information as to

15     whether that's true or not?

16        A.   Marko Kovac was not there when I was a combatant.  Marko Kovac

17     was not there at all.  He arrived later when the army of the republic was

18     created.  He was appointed a commander, as far as I know.

19        Q.   Perhaps it will save time if I ask this way, sir:  When you say

20     these units weren't connected to the VRS, are you speaking only of the

21     time before you were injured, that is, up to the 22nd of June, 1992?

22        A.   That's precisely what I'm saying.  The VRS did not exist until

23     the 22nd of June, 1992.

24        Q.   And you've said that at that time you didn't know who your

25     commander was getting his instructions from; right?

 1        A.   I did not interfere with these things, so yes, you're right.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 17 of your statement, you address the crimes charged

 3     in the indictment.  And you say:

 4             "Anyone who was stronger or madder at any point could have

 5     committed the acts which Defence attorneys previously explained to me

 6     took place in Foca related to the incidents of which General Mladic

 7     stands accused."

 8             So it was the Defence team which informed you which acts

 9     General Mladic is charged with in Foca; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And did the Defence team also inform you that several of those

12     acts also took place while you were not in Foca?

13        A.   Everything actually happened when I was not in Foca.  I mean

14     later, when I was not part of the troops, when I was not a combatant.

15        Q.   With that I'm going to turn to KP Dom, sir.  Now, your father was

16     convicted of crimes against humanity due to the crimes that were

17     committed at KP Dom; right?

18        A.   I maintain that my father is not guilty.  But he was convicted,

19     yes.  And he certainly did nothing to violate any law.

20        Q.   Now, when you first learned your father had been assigned to

21     KP Dom, he told you there were White Eagles there and they were keeping

22     Muslims detained; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you went to KP Dom to protect your father from the

25     White Eagles and from the Serbian guard; right?

 1        A.   Yes, because we all knew what kind of people they were and what

 2     they did.

 3        Q.   And when you say what kind of people they were, they had a

 4     reputation for committing crimes; right?

 5        A.   The truth is we were all afraid of them, that's right.  I don't

 6     know if they committed crimes or not.  When I was there, there were no

 7     problems.

 8        Q.   When you say there were no problems, they never threatened you,

 9     did they?

10        A.   Well they couldn't.  I carried a rifle and I wasn't afraid of

11     them.

12        Q.   And you never saw them threaten your father; right?

13        A.   Not in my presence, and my father would have told me probably if

14     they had threatened him.

15        Q.   But these same people that you were afraid of were at the time

16     guarding Muslim detainees, guarding the part of the prison where Muslim

17     detainees were held; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, the White Eagles left KP Dom before you went to Preljuca

20     around the 15th of May; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And in the Krnojelac case, you testified that by the time you

23     left -- actually let's just call up the relevant transcript.

24             MR. TRALDI:  It's 65 ter 31316, page 78.  I'm looking for -- it

25     begins on line 7.

 1        Q.   You were asked:

 2             "After the white agency else left, you stayed on to protect your

 3     father from other people, not the White Eagles; right?"

 4             And you answered:

 5             "Already at that time, and maybe even earlier, the army had taken

 6     over that part of the KP Dom where the Muslims were, and everybody knows

 7     what my father did there and what his duties were."

 8             And I'll stop at that point.  When you said:  "... the army had

 9     taken over that part of the KP Dom," which army did you mean?

10        A.   The Territorial Defence.  To my mind, everybody who had a rifle

11     was a soldier.  At that time, it was the Territorial Defence, the TO.  In

12     fact, those were old guards who had done a stint on the front line and

13     then come back to take up their old jobs of guards which they had before

14     the war.

15        Q.   And turning to the people detained there now, you considered,

16     didn't you, that it would be hard for anyone to watch detainees being

17     brought in to KP Dom; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   That's because bringing a person to KP Dom deprived them of

20     everything; right?

21        A.   I don't know what you mean.

22        Q.   Well, let's look at page 64 of this same document, your Krnojelac

23     testimony.  And I'm looking at line 13.  You had just testified that it

24     was hard for your father to look at people being brought in.

25             Actually, let's read out your previous answer as well.  So I'm

 1     going to start on line 8, the second sentence.  You said:

 2             "There was a compulsory work order.  The work duty.  But knowing

 3     my father, I knew that it was hard for him to look at those people being

 4     brought in, and of course it was very hard for him to observe all of that

 5     and not being able to do anything about it, not being able to help.

 6             You were asked:

 7             "I'd like to ask you what you mean by 'hard for him to observe

 8     all of that.'"

 9             You were asked:

10             "What is the all of that that you're referring to?

11             And you answered:

12             "The process of bringing people into the KP Dom itself.  You're

13     depriving a person of their liberty, depriving them of everything."

14             Now, my question to you was bringing a person into the KP Dom did

15     deprive them of everything, didn't it, just like you testified in your

16     father's trial?

17        A.   When I say "depriving of freedom," it doesn't mean that you

18     deprive people of everything.  I think freedom is the greatest thing in

19     life.  If you're not free, then what's your life worth?

20        Q.   Now, you and your father knew that these people were being

21     deprived of their freedom for no legal reason, didn't you?

22        A.   Certainly some were, but some were not.  Those who had weapons in

23     their possession, they were guilty.  But others were deprived of freedom

24     for no legal reason, right.

25        Q.   Well let's just go down to the bottom of the same page, lines 23

 1     to 25.  Now you're being asked about your father, and you were asked:

 2             "In other words, he knew that people were being deprived of their

 3     liberty for no legal reason; right?"

 4             And you answered:  "Every normal person knew that."

 5             That was true, wasn't it?  Every normal person in Foca knew that

 6     people were being taken to the KP Dom and deprived of their liberty for

 7     no legal reason.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I would say that this is asked and answered as you

10     can see in the line 23 --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Page 44, line 23.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, there was some ambiguity here and there,

14     and therefore Mr. Traldi is allowed to revisit this matter and put to the

15     witness the testimony he gave in the case against his father.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, do you recall the testimony I read to you or would it assist

19     if I read it again?

20        A.   No need.  I remember.

21        Q.   That testimony you gave in your father's case was truthful,

22     wasn't it?  Every normal person in Foca knew that people were being

23     deprived of their liberty at KP Dom for no legal reason?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you mentioned earlier that the Territorial Defence had taken

 1     over the area where Muslims were detained.  The warden of that area was

 2     Savo Todorovic, right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And he was also convicted of crimes against humanity in the

 5     Bosnian court for his role at KP Dom; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

 9             Mr. Lukic, do you have any further questions for the witness?  We

10     have approximately five minutes left until the break.  If you'd say I

11     need eight or ten minutes, then of course we could consider to continue a

12     bit longer.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I would rather break now with your leave, Your

14     Honour, because we have to find one document that would clarify whether

15     there was VRS in Foca area or not because it was -- I don't have --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  If you say the questions put by Mr. Traldi

17     require that I would have another --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Probably five minutes.  I need not more than five,

19     six minutes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  But you prefer to have that after the break.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.  We'll take the break and we will

23     resume at quarter past midday, and we'd like to see the witness back in

24     20 minutes.

25                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.

 2                           --- Upon commencing at 12.28 p.m.

 3                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first establish whether the videolink is

 5     still functioning well.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, I can confirm we can

 7     see and we can hear you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't see you, I don't hear you.  And I hope I

 9     pushed the right button.

10             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, we can see you and

11     we can hear you.  Can you see and hear us?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I now can see you and I can hear you.  So apparently

13     it's functioning well.

14             Mr. Lukic will now put some questions in re-examination to the

15     witness.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, good afternoon, once again.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   I don't know whether you'll manage to see this, but I'm going to

20     read something out to you and I'm going to call it up for the courtroom.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P2838.

22        Q.   For you, Mr. Krnojelac, I'd like to explain what this is about.

23     This is a document of the Foca tactical group of the Serb republic of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina dated the 29th of June, 1992, that is to say, seven

25     days after you were wounded this document was written up.  Let us now

 1     just look at the last page.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So that would be page 2 in both

 3     versions.

 4        Q.   We see that the document was signed by the commander,

 5     Colonel Marko Kovac.  And from the stamp, we can see what Colonel Kovac

 6     was commander of at the time.  It was the staff of the

 7     Territorial Defence of the Serb Municipality of Foca.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So let us go back to the first page

 9     now.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  It's a minor matter but I'm not sure if Mr. Lukic is

12     suggesting there's an error in the translation.  The stamp is a little

13     bit small but it refers -- the translation, anyway, refers to the

14     SAO Herzegovina rather than to the municipality of Foca.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Inner circle.

16             If we can have the stamp on our screens enlarged.  More, more,

17     more, more -- yeah.  On the bottom part of this -- yeah.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps you read it in the original.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you read what exactly, Mr. Lukic?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Now I'll read top part outer circle.

22     [Interpretation] "Serb republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina." [In English] In

23     the middle --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And the bottom part reads what?

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Serb municipality of Foca."

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And now you read the --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Middle.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  -- middle circle.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Serb autonomous district of

 5     Herzegovina."

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And now you read the inner circle.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] "Territorial Defence staff."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think we've read now the whole of the stamp

 9     and we were able to follow it in the original.

10             MR. LUKIC:  So in the English, I can see now it's missing, so

11     that's probably why my learned friend was objecting.  It's missing

12     Serbian municipality of Foca.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And having been pointed to that, we agree that line

14     is missing and also that the line that is present in the translation

15     about the autonomous district is also present.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then having clarified this, Mr. Lukic, please

17     proceed.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Krnojelac, you were asked whether at

20     that time -- actually, you said that the Army of Republika Srpska did not

21     exist at that time, before you were wounded in the territory of the

22     municipality of Foca.  And we are saying that this is exactly confirmed

23     by this document tendered by the Prosecution.  We can go through the

24     entire document and we can see that it is the future tense that is used

25     when it is stated, "I hereby order using the mobilised and armed men

 1     establish the following ..." and then it says the Foca tactical group,

 2     the 1st Foca Infantry Brigade, the 2nd Foca Infantry Brigade.

 3             And then paragraph 4, a deadline is provided in terms of when

 4     this should start, so it says, paragraph 4, the units are to be

 5     established as of the 5th of July, 1992, and so on and so forth.

 6             So would you stand by what you said, that the Army of Republika

 7     Srpska had not been established?

 8        A.   Yes.  And I claim with full responsibility that the army of

 9     Republika Srpska did not exist before I was wounded.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Mr. Lukic, it's all fine.  It's as leading as

11     possibly could be.  At the same time, it's not for the first time that we

12     see that stamps are used which are not always updated, and you are

13     leading because in the document itself, not in a stamp, which can have

14     existed and put there, I think in the document itself, on the first page,

15     it talks about the Vojska of Republika Srpska, and now to say, isn't it,

16     that this all confirms is not only leading but is also improperly

17     suggesting conclusions which should be kept for a later stage in the

18     proceedings, because if I look at the document itself -- let me just have

19     a look again.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say this document clearly shows, pointing at

22     the -- that the VRS did not exist yet at this point in time --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we see the first page.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  First page.

25             MR. LUKIC:  In the area of Foca.  Not that it did not exist at

 1     all.  In the area of Foca, it did not function.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Functioning or existing is not the same, Mr. Lukic.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Or existing in the area of Foca.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But what I see is that -- and we are now talking

 5     about Foca tactical group.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That is Foca.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  But from --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Based on the order of the GS, the Main Staff --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of the army of the Serbian republic.  Now --

12             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, if you go further -- no, no, no, no, no.  If

13     you go further.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Of BH.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In order to --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot follow where

17     Mr. Lukic is reading from.  Could we please have a reference.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we are reading in the English from the first

19     paragraph.  Okay.  But whatever the case is, Mr. Lukic, this is argument

20     rather than examination of a witness.  To put certain portions of a

21     document to him and to ask him whether this confirms or not, you may

22     argue that, there's no problem about that, but it's not a question you

23     put to a witness.  And it may well be debatable what is the right

24     conclusion to be drawn in the context of the whole of the evidence rather

25     than to put a stamp to a witness and ask him, doesn't this confirm the

 1     situation.  Whether it does or not is not for the witness to decide.

 2     It's not a question of fact.

 3             You can ask him whether the stamp reads what it reads.  You don't

 4     have to ask that to him because you can just read it and we'll follow you

 5     and Mr. Traldi fully agreed with you.  There is a need to have it

 6     translated -- at least to provide a new translation, but I find this not

 7     a proper way of examining a witness in re-examination.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, only one addition.  Your question was

10     not related to Foca.  Your question was:

11             "So would you stand by what you said, that the Army of Republika

12     Srpska had not been established."

13             Which is --

14             MR. LUKIC:  My mistake, then.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's leave this quickly behind us.  If you

17     have any further questions, Mr. Lukic, you may put them to the witness.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, only it was suggested to the witness

19     that he was not telling the truth that there was, and even in the last

20     testimony at his father's trial and at this testimony he was very firm in

21     his statement that there was no VRS in the Foca area.  He was not

22     testifying about other parts.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are arguing again.  Reliability and

24     credibility of the witness can be discussed before the court through the

25     parties.  If there's any question of fact which might shed further light

 1     on this matter, you may put it, but not to ask the witness to -- whether

 2     he agrees or not that a certain stamp would confirm what he said before.

 3     That's not a task for a witness.

 4             Let's move on.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, we see Mr. Kovac mentioned here.

 7     Perhaps you do know, perhaps you don't know, what was his position before

 8     you were wounded, and was he in Foca at all?

 9        A.   I claim with full responsibility that this man was not in Foca

10     while I was a soldier, so he came only after I was wounded.  Which

11     positions he held before that, I really don't know.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The question of whether battalions were established

13     was discussed, page 28, line 4.  The transcript from your testimony in

14     your late father's trial was put to you.  Did anyone inform you about

15     which units were established?  Did anyone report to you about that?  Did

16     you know at all which units could have been formed in Foca?

17        A.   No, nobody gave information about that.  And I still claim that

18     as far as I know there weren't any battalions up until when I was

19     wounded.  Later on when the VRS was established, then brigades and

20     battalions and whatever was established, but before I was wounded that

21     certainly did not exist.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at 65 ter --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I put some additional questions.

25             In the trial of your father, you talked about battalions.  Today,

 1     you say there were no battalions.  And now you tell us that -- first of

 2     all you tell us that no one informed you about what was established and

 3     what was not established.  And after that, you say the battalions were

 4     only established at a later stage.

 5             That is all -- at least has contradictory elements as

 6     inconsistent elements.  If nobody gave you information about that, how

 7     would you still know that the brigades and the battalions were not

 8     established before you were wounded if no one informed about it?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know if I understood

10     Mr. Lukic's question properly.  Nobody informed me in that period while I

11     was a soldier.  Later on, in this period after my wounding, I know about

12     that from my brother and from other comrades in the unit that the Army of

13     Republika Srpska was established and that units were established then,

14     battalions, brigades, whatever.  But while I was a soldier, that

15     certainly did not exist.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have no personal knowledge about it but this

17     is what you heard from your brother and from the other comrades at a

18     later stage.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know to what extent you

20     heard me.  I claim and guarantee that until the 22nd of June, 1992, that

21     is the date when I was wounded, up until that moment there was no Army of

22     Republika Srpska or any battalions that were in existence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Under oath --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I know about that because I was

25     present.

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Under -- after having given your solemn declaration

 2     in the trial of your father, you testified about battalions, and now

 3     you're telling us that you claim and guarantee that they were not there.

 4     That, at least, is not consistent.  Do you have an explanation as why you

 5     gave a different testimony in your father's case against what you told us

 6     today?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know who translated that

 8     and how they translated that, but I'm telling you I would like you to

 9     show me this recording where I'm saying that.  And I assert that I

10     certainly did not say that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  To inform the parties, CLSS is working at this

12     moment on reviewing the audio.  Perhaps not during the testimony of this

13     witness the results will be available, but I hope that they are available

14     very soon.  I'll later instruct the witness not to communicate with

15     anyone in the usual way so that the parties still would have an

16     opportunity to see whether they wanted to further pursue the accuracy of

17     that matter or leave it as it is with the knowledge of the outcome of the

18     CLSS verification.

19             The witness again, now, has stated that it must be a mistake and

20     we have -- luckily enough we have an opportunity to verify that and

21     that's what's done.

22             Any further questions, Mr. Lukic?

23             MR. LUKIC:  If we may see the document 65 ter, from the

24     Prosecution list, 14203.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krnojelac, I don't know whether you can see

 1     this in front of you, this document on the screen.  Can you see it or

 2     not?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   All right.  I'm going to tell you what this is all about.  It's a

 5     very short document.  It says the Serb republic of Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina, the Serbian municipality of Foca, penal and correctional

 7     facility Foca, that KP Dom Foca.  The date is the 15th of May, 1992.

 8             And this document is being sent to the Crisis Staff of the

 9     Serbian municipality of Foca.  And it says in the text:

10             "Please find enclosed the request of detainee Enes Zekovic for

11     release from detention.  We are forwarding to you for further action.  We

12     received the request on the 15th of May this year."

13             Attachments one.  And the signature says acting warden

14     Milorad Krnojelac.

15             At that time, you were still by your father.  Did you know, did

16     your father tell you that he could not release detainees and prisoners

17     from the KP Dom Foca, or rather that this was done by the Crisis Staff of

18     the municipality of Foca?

19        A.   As the document itself shows, he absolutely had nothing to do

20     with the detainees at the KP Dom Foca.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this

22     document.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we deal with that, could the witness tell us

24     whether Enes Zekovic, whether he knows this person?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I did not know Mr. Enes Zekovic.

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Judging by the name, but perhaps I should address

 2     the parties, would you expect this to be a Muslim or a Serb or a Croat or

 3     whatever?  Would you -- would the name -- if the parties would agree on

 4     that, we don't have to ask the witness because we are asking more or less

 5     for a judgement.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We agree that's a Muslim person.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a Muslim person.  Parties agree on that.  Okay.

 8     That's fine.  Then we don't have to put the question to the witness.

 9             Any further questions -- no, first admission of this document.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

12             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D651, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D651 is admitted.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Just one more.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] It was mentioned to you that in the apartment

17     that was allocated to you by the municipality on a temporary basis, Atif

18     worked there and you said yes, that's a Muslim.  This Atif, did he visit

19     you after the war?  Did you see him ever?

20        A.   Yes, yes, although during my father's trial, I brought a letter

21     that he had sent me during the war where he is thanking me for having

22     helped him and having informed his family that he was alive and well.

23     Two years ago he came to Foca, we had coffee, we talked, which means that

24     the man is alive and well to this day.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Krnojelac.  That is all we had for you.  Thank

 1     you?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I meanwhile can inform the parties, I asked already

 3     to be informally briefed on the outcome, and again therefore this is

 4     informal, but I received an e-mail which states the B/C/S of what the

 5     witness said and the English interpretation, as recorded in the

 6     transcript, that's what my e-mail reads, the provisional review of CLSS

 7     is the interpretation is correct, and I see both in the B/C/S and in the

 8     English text, and we of course will share that with the parties, the

 9     word -- at least the word "battalion" in -- which in B/C/S apparently is

10     the same, more or less, as in English, and the reference to the

11     1st Battalion.

12             If the parties feel any need to further pursue this matter, then

13     of course they have an opportunity to do so, but I asked for an alarming

14     signal if there would be something wrong and it appears from this first

15     report that at least it was not, not any error or even let alone a major

16     error was detected upon the first review.

17             Let me first share it with my colleagues and then I'll share it

18     with the parties.

19             No further questions, Mr. Lukic?

20             Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Very briefly, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P2838 back, the first document

24     Mr. Lukic used on re-examination.

25                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 1        Q.   And, sir, looking at point one here on page 1 in the B/C/S.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And on page --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, the witness can't see it.  So you

 4     have to read it.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  It should be part of his packet.

 6             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, witness has the

 7     document in front of him.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's available to the witness.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  It's under point 1 in the B/C/S.  And if we could

11     turn to page 2 in the English.

12        Q.   It's talking about the formation of the tactical group and the

13     brigades, and it says:

14             "1st light brigade out of 2b, 3b, and 7b, 2nd light brigade out

15     of 1b, 4b, 5b, and 6b."

16             And I think it's fair, sir, to put to you that our case is that

17     refers to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th Battalions that

18     existed already at this point.  That's correct, isn't it?

19        A.   Sir, as far as I can see, this is dated 29 June.  I left on the

20     22nd June and I maintain that until the 22nd June, while I was still a

21     combatant in the brigade, there was no battalion.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.

 1             One question to the witness.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If this document says that a light infantry brigade,

 4     the Foca Light Infantry Brigade is to composed of men from certain

 5     battalions, and if you emphasise that this document dates from the 29th

 6     of June, that would mean that between, I think it was the 22nd when you

 7     were wounded, that in one week they would first have to establish the

 8     battalions, and then to establish the Foca Light Infantry Brigade to

 9     composed of men from these battalions which were created -- within the

10     six or seven days before.

11             If you would like to comment on that, you have an opportunity to

12     do so, but you don't have to.

13        A.   I'm really not a military expert to be able to know how this is

14     established and how it's done, but I say with full responsibility that

15     the Army of Republika Srpska did not exist until the 22nd June.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  No further questions from the Bench.

17             Witness, I'd like to thank you very much for making yourself

18     available as a witness and coming to the videolink room, and I would also

19     like to thank you for having answered the questions, questions that were

20     put to you by the parties and questions that were put to you by the

21     Bench.  And I'm at this moment looking at the parties.  There's no need

22     to further instruct the witness.  Then I wish you a safe return home

23     again.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  All my greetings to you.  Best

25     wishes.

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  The videolink can be ended.

 2                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

 3             Mr. Lukic, what would you prefer?  We can start with the next

 4     witness now.  We had a bit of a delay this morning so there's another way

 5     of taking the break now so that you will have a bit more uninterrupted

 6     possibility to examine the witness.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague Stojanovic said that he's ready to

 8     continue immediately.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Stojanovic you would also prefer to

10     continue for 20 minutes, 25 minutes, and then have a break and then to --

11     or would you prefer to take a break first and then have some 55 minutes

12     which is more, I think, than you asked for, with at least no risk of

13     being interrupted halfway?  Is it the latter that you prefer?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour, and

15     General Mladic suggested that we do it that way so I suggest we take a

16     break now and then continue.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break first and we will resume -- one

18     second, please.

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for the record, the parties will receive the

21     provisional -- the first report which is not usual formal report as we

22     receive it, but I think I've read that -- the major elements and you have

23     not insisted on me instructing the witness in any other way, so therefore

24     I take it that this, apart, perhaps, from the final report, that this

25     determines this matter for the time being.

 1             We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes past 1.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.26 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We will wait for the witness to be escorted into the

 5     courtroom.

 6             Your next witness, Mr. Lukic, is Mr. Sokolovic -- or it's you,

 7     Mr. Stojanovic.

 8             Mr. Sokolovic is your next witness?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for him to enter the courtroom.

11                           [The witness enters court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Sokolovic, I presume.

13             Mr. Sokolovic, may I invite you to make the solemn declaration,

14     the text of which is now handed out to you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

16     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  MILORAD SOKOLOVIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Sokolovic.  Please be seated.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  We just need to adjust this a

21     little.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sokolovic, you will first be examined by

23     Mr. Stojanovic, you find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for

24     Mr. Mladic.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Sokolovic.  Would you kindly state your name

 4     and surname for the record.

 5        A.   My name is Milorad Sokolovic.  People call me Mile.

 6        Q.   Mr. Sokolovic, was there a time when you gave a written statement

 7     to the Defence team of General Mladic on the issues you were questioned

 8     about?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up

11     in e-court 65 ter 1D01695.

12        Q.   Mr. Sokolovic, this is the first time you are in this courtroom.

13     You will see on the screen the first page of that statement.  Could you

14     tell the Court if the signature on this page is yours and if the personal

15     details are correct?

16        A.   Yes, they are correct, and it's my signature.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the last

19     page.

20        Q.   On this page, is it again your signature and the date written in

21     your hand?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Today, when you made the solemn declaration in the

24     courtroom that you will speak the truth and nothing but the truth, would

25     you answer in the same way as written in the statement and does it

 1     correspond to your best recollection?

 2        A.   Yes.  The statement was made to the best of my recollection and

 3     if I were asked the same things today, I would answer the same.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that

 5     this is the right moment to tender the witness statement 1D01695 which is

 6     the 65 ter number.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D652, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, D652 is admitted

10     into evidence.

11             Please proceed if you have any further questions or if you want

12     to read a summary, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, I will read a

14     short summary of Milorad Sokolovic's witness statement, and I will

15     emphasise that the beginning of the war found Milorad Sokolovic in his

16     birthplace, Rogatica, where he was employed as the manager of the

17     electricity distribution company and a deputy to the Municipal Assembly

18     of Rogatica on behalf of the SDS.

19             Before the war, he joins the Crisis Staff and accepts the duty of

20     its president.  He remained in this position until the end of May 1992,

21     when the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of Rogatica was

22     formed, and he headed it until October 1993 when he returned to his

23     company.

24             The witness speaks about the agreements with the SDA Crisis Staff

25     on the peaceful demarcation in the Rogatica municipality and the decision

 1     made by the assembly to divide the municipality into the Muslim and

 2     Serbian municipalities.

 3             He is familiar with the incidents of interethnic nature after the

 4     death of Serb civilians on St. George's day in 1992 and on 10 May 1992 in

 5     Zivaljevina village.

 6             The tensions culminated on 21st May, 1992, when a young man,

 7     Drazenko Mihaljevic was ambushed and killed and his dead body was not

 8     turned over to the family by the Muslims.  So under the pressure of the

 9     local inhabitants, the commander of the then TO sent a message to the

10     Muslims that if they do not wish to turn over the young man's body by

11     will, they will take it by force.

12             From that moment, incidents become more intensive and intense and

13     a classical armed conflict began.

14             Until then, or rather by that time, the population was

15     homogenised and resettled to the location of Kozici and Stjenice

16     villages.  In parallel with this process, in April 1992 the Muslim

17     population left en masse by buses and passenger vehicles towards

18     Sarajevo.  It is estimated that over 3.000 Muslims left Rogatica in this

19     way before the 21st of May, 1992.

20             When the conflict began in Rogatica, the remaining Muslim

21     population, organised by their own leadership, left towards Gorazde and

22     Zepa so that few Muslim families remained in town in comparison to those

23     who had left before.

24             This is a short summary of this witness's statement and with your

25     leave, Your Honours, I would like to ask just a few questions.

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look up in e-court

 3     paragraph 9 of the exhibit which now has the number of D652.

 4        Q.   You, Witness, will soon seen it before you and have the

 5     opportunity to read it.  It's paragraph 9.

 6             You say that Muslim representatives accepted this approach.  So

 7     the decision was made at a regular meeting of the Rogatica Municipal

 8     Assembly to divide the municipality into two parts, one Muslim, one Serb.

 9     My question is could you briefly describe this process of dividing the

10     municipality, what actually happened on the ground in Rogatica at that

11     time?

12             You will see on another screen the LiveNote and when you see that

13     the typing has stopped, would you only then start to speak so that

14     everything can be properly recorded.  Thank you.

15        A.   Yes, I see it.  In the briefest term possible, time had done its

16     work and there were great tensions among the two ethnic communities that

17     formed the majority of the population.  The question was how to deal with

18     these tensions.  Crisis Staffs were already in place, both the

19     SDA Crisis Staff and the SDS Crisis Staff.  Those were the two main

20     political parties that had won the previous elections.

21             I found myself a member of such a team that was extended.  I

22     myself and a number of my business associates were not members of the

23     SDS.  Talks were held individually and in groups.  I was speaking on

24     behalf of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Democratic Party and I was

25     talking to the Muslim chief of their Crisis Staff.  We had some talks at

 1     tete-a-tete and also talks between delegations which at that time

 2     consisted of three members.  We were trying to make an assessment and to

 3     and to make a forecast, but the main purpose was to diffuse tensions and

 4     resolve the situation peacefully.

 5        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  This decision made by the municipal

 6     assembly to divide the municipality, did it mean a territorial division

 7     of Rogatica?

 8        A.   Yes.  That was one of the realisations made during these talks

 9     between two Crisis Staffs.  It had already become the practice in

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina to divide municipalities on ethnic principles and we

11     tried to do the same in a working-group made up of representatives of

12     both ethnicities.  We were trying to find a way to divide the

13     municipality in such a way that both parts of the municipality would have

14     the majority population of one ethnic group.  And we tried basically to

15     respect the ethnic composition as it was in 1990.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Court, how did it come about that

17     you became chairman of the Crisis Staff while you were not a member of

18     the SDS?  Your political affiliation was quite different, you belonged to

19     the socialists.

20        A.   I'll try to explain.  I was a businessman, a native of Rogatica.

21     I was engaged in what was then referred to as social work.  I had already

22     been head of a trade union.  I was president of the municipality for two

23     terms, then vice-president of the municipality for two terms.  My

24     political affiliation was to the Socialist Alliance which was a

25     multi-national party close to the centre or centre left.  And in our

 1     environment, I was one of the leading people with an exemplary biography,

 2     and obviously there occurred a moment in the work of those Crisis Staffs

 3     where everybody felt the kind of saturation and we were under the

 4     pressure of these ethnic tensions.  So I, who grew up in a multi-ethnic

 5     community and had an urban culture, so I was offered that position.

 6             But the idea was not to dismiss anyone, just to add to the group,

 7     people of a different brand, businessmen with a different kind of

 8     thinking who were not members of the SDS.

 9        Q.   Could you now please look at paragraph 13.  Here, you say that

10     after the entire process which you have described, you know that the

11     equipment of the Territorial Defence was divided between Serbs and

12     Muslims.  My question is how do you know that?

13        A.   First of all, all this --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you're on your feet.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.  I don't see where it says that

16     this was after the process we've just been discussing and actually I'm

17     not sure which process that referred to.  So I'd just request that the

18     question be clarified slightly.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you either clarify or rephrase.  Please

20     proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that is perfectly fine,

22     Your Honours.  Thank you.

23        Q.   In paragraph 13, you dealt with this matter but I must ask you

24     first:  This process of dividing the equipment of the Territorial Defence

25     between Serbs and Muslims, did it precede the decision to establish two

 1     municipalities in Rogatica or after?

 2        A.   That's a good question.  It happened before, because the

 3     atmosphere was such that, for instance, it all began with the division of

 4     the police force.  We began dividing office space, the police station was

 5     divided into two parts.  The same happened with the Territorial Defence

 6     building.  In the basement there were depots of the equipment both of the

 7     Territorial Defence and the police.

 8             I don't know what kind of weaponry they had and how they got hold

 9     of it, but the reference here is to the equipment that was there at the

10     moment.

11             First of all, the police was divided, wherein a session was held,

12     I would say, in a very relaxed atmosphere when members of the police

13     force split into two parts and continued sharing the same building.

14             Sometime later, I can't say how long exactly, the

15     Territorial Defence was divided in the same way and divided the

16     equipment.  There must be some record in the archives still somewhere but

17     it was done in a very civilised way, and the two parts of the TO

18     continued to share the same office space, the same building.

19        Q.   Let us now focus on paragraph 14.  You say after that the Muslims

20     left Rogatica going towards Zepa and Gorazde.  The Muslim political

21     leadership and their authorities were engaged in organising this

22     departure of Muslims.

23             First of all, let me ask you:  Territorially and administratively

24     in that period in May 1992, was Zepa part of Rogatica municipality?

25        A.   Zepa was the largest local commune in Rogatica municipality,

 1     40 kilometres from the centre of town.  It was almost completely Muslim

 2     in terms of population.  Let me just remind you that the population of

 3     Rogatica was two-thirds and one-third Serb.

 4             Considering this departure of Muslims, at that moment a division

 5     was already in place so people from Rogatica went to join their families

 6     in Zepa even before that.  But this organised departure was by buses,

 7     dozens of buses and passenger vehicles, towards Sarajevo.  And I know

 8     roughly that in this convoy, there were about 2.500 to 3.000 Muslims,

 9     which indicates that most of the Muslim population completely freely

10     decided to move towards Sarajevo.

11             Excuse me, the question was here under which leadership.  After

12     that, the second half of the Muslim population would leave in a

13     completely organised manner, organised by their leadership in two

14     direction, one towards Medjedja and the other half would go to the west

15     going down to Ustipraca and then up again towards Gorazde.

16             I have to describe to you the route they took.  They went through

17     territories populated mainly by Muslims which were later left abandoned.

18     Most of the population had left.  And the Serb houses there were mostly

19     destroyed.  And on this journey, on both journeys, in both directions,

20     there were killings.  Killings against Serbs, that's what I meant.

21        Q.   Was there a similar process involved in terms of the Serb

22     population leaving Rogatica?

23        A.   Yes, in two stages if you can put it that way.  In these bad

24     times, March, the beginning of April, many Serbs left and took their

25     children most often to Serbia.

 1             People would move out into the outskirts of Rogatica, mostly

 2     based on ethnic affiliation, so a lot of Serbs left the centre of

 3     Rogatica and for a while Rogatica was practically under the control of

 4     the Muslims.

 5        Q.   Mr. Sokolovic, thank you.  And now I am going to let my

 6     colleague, the Prosecutor, put his questions to you.

 7        A.   Thank you, too.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was on my mind as well, Mr. Stojanovic,

 9     that I would give an opportunity to the Prosecution to cross-examine the

10     witness.

11             Mr. Sokolovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  You

12     find him to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

14        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can exhibit P3913 be brought to the screen.

16        Q.   And, sir, we see here a report on the work of the Crisis Staff of

17     the Serbian municipality of Rogatica for the period April to June 1992.

18     Are you familiar with this report?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Did you assist in preparing it?

21        A.   Absolutely, because I insisted that this kind of document be

22     drafted and adopted within a certain procedure.

23        Q.   And to whom was it sent?

24        A.   Well, first of all, all the assemblymen or the municipal assembly

25     had it in their hands.  This was already the Serb municipality of

 1     Rogatica and I think that it was sent to many addresses at higher levels

 2     of government, not only at a local level, if you will.

 3        Q.   When you say "higher levels of government," did that include the

 4     Presidency of Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   Well, I think it did, but primarily people who were in charge

 6     like the vice-president of the assembly, people who had coordination with

 7     the municipality, so several addressees, yes.

 8        Q.   It says that the Crisis Staff in the first paragraph was

 9     established at a session of the Main Board of the SDS.  Was the report

10     also sent to SDS at the republic level?

11        A.   First of all, this Crisis Staff from 1 to 22, it was organised at

12     the level of the municipality, and as far as I know it was not the

13     subject of any debate or discussion or confirmation or reconfirmation or

14     decision-making by the SDS, as far as I know.

15        Q.   Sir, I think you've answered a different question than the one I

16     asked.  What I asked was simply was this report sent to the SDS at the

17     republic level?

18        A.   I don't think so.  But there were members of the Main Board from

19     Rogatica who certainly had access to this material and they may have sent

20     it on further.

21        Q.   And one of those was Rajko Kusis, right, who was a member of the

22     Main Board from Rogatica?

23        A.   Kusic.

24        Q.   And we see his name at point 5; right?

25        A.   Yes, Kusic.

 1        Q.   I think what you're indicating in your answer is that it's

 2     spelled with two Ss with diacritics in the document but in fact, the

 3     second S should be a C; is that right?

 4        A.   Kusic, that's right.

 5        Q.   And the people we see on the list are all Serbs; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And the headquarters of the Crisis Staff at this time was in the

 8     "sladara" [phoen], malt factory; right?

 9        A.   Yes, the malt factory, that is what it was called,

10     Tvornica Slada.

11        Q.   How regularly were you yourself present in the headquarters?

12        A.   Well, you see, there were only sessions that were held from time

13     to time, spontaneously, depending on when this was needed.  But I

14     attended all sessions of the staff.

15        Q.   Over the course of -- you were president of the Crisis Staff for

16     almost three months; right?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   Roughly how many days during that time were you present in the

19     headquarters in your -- to your best recollection?

20        A.   Well, you see it wasn't the official headquarters.  These were

21     offices.  Societal offices at the malt factory where we moved after

22     things happened on St. George's day in 1992.  We moved out and

23     practically the seat of the administration, we can put it that way, of

24     the municipality of Rogatica moved to the business administration

25     premises of the malt factory.

 1        Q.   And that's after roughly the 20th of May, 1992?

 2        A.   Basically after St. George's day, especially after the 20th of

 3     May.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Then I'd like to look at another document now.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, your initial question has not been

 6     answered.  If you're happy with that, I'll leave it to that.  But I'll --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  You're correct, Your Honour, and you've refreshed my

 8     recollection.

 9        Q.   During that period after St. George's day, up to the time that

10     you stopped being president of the Crisis Staff, roughly how many times

11     were you present in the malt factory?

12        A.   Well, you see, practically this was my work place because already

13     in May I was president of the Executive Board and those are the offices

14     where different meetings were held.  These are working offices and staff

15     meetings were always held sometime in the afternoon, whatever.

16        Q.   Everybody's present at their workplace a slightly different

17     amount of time, but were you there four days a week, five days a week,

18     seven days a week?

19        A.   I don't understand that question.  Do you mean active work in the

20     Crisis Staff or ...?

21        Q.   All I mean for the moment is how often were you in the building

22     that you described as your workplace?  Was it once a week, four times a

23     week, seven times a week?

24        A.   No.  You see in principle, every day, unless I was on a business

25     trip or some meeting that was not held right there.

 1             MR. TRALDI:  With that I will turn to another document unless the

 2     Chamber has any additional questions on that issue.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We have not.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P3909, please.

 5        Q.   And, sir, we see here a report on the work of the Rogatica

 6     Municipal Assembly's Executive Committee and it's dated the 1st of

 7     October, 1993.  Is that your name and signature on the cover page, sir?

 8        A.   No, it's the signature of the secretary of the Executive Board.

 9     At the same time, he was secretary of the assembly and of the

10     Executive Board, and in the previous period while the Crisis Staff

11     operated he was the secretary of the Crisis Staff as well.

12        Q.   And is there a "za" in Serbian before your title to signify

13     that's he's signing for you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, did you also participate in the drafting of this report?

16        A.   Well, the essence.  I know the essence and the secretary worked

17     out the outline, and then I shaped it together with him.

18        Q.   And this one --

19             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, if we could have page 33 in the English

20     and 30 in the B/C/S.  And what I'm interested in is below the three Xs

21     for the moment, at the very bottom of the page in the English.

22        Q.   So this report, like the previous one, went to committee members.

23     It also went to the command of the Rogatica Brigade; right?

24        A.   Yes, but I'm going to be very precise here because we made this

25     report in 100 copies, we distributed one -- actually 50 to the members of

 1     the assembly of Rogatica and the rest different institutions.  The

 2     Presidency, members of government, members of parliament, of the republic

 3     assembly, that is, and so on and so forth.

 4        Q.   As well as the Rogatica Brigade, the Drina Corps command received

 5     a copy; right?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, and also the police structures.  Our wish was to have

 7     this document reach as many addresses as possible.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Could we turn to the next page in the English.

 9        Q.   And it also went to the headquarters of the Bosnian Serb army;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes, I think the Ministry of Defence as well.

12             MR. TRALDI:  If could turn to page 5 in the English and 4 in the

13     B/C/S.

14        Q.   Below point 2, we read that:

15             "Establishment of Rogatica Municipal Assembly, earlier Serb

16     municipality of Rogatica, as council members know, was carried out at the

17     end of December 1991, and it was composed of all Serb council members,

18     elected at the first multi-party elections in 1990, total 20 members.

19     Serb municipal assembly included also, as per instructions --"

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  We

21     haven't been receiving interpretation for quite a while now since the

22     Prosecutor started asking this question, so I just wanted to draw your

23     attention to that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could then -- Mr. Traldi, could you restart and --

25     and was it from where Mr. Traldi started reading?

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] From the beginning of the

 2     question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  From when this question started.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please restart, Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Of course.

 6        Q.   And I take it that I understand correctly that you're receiving

 7     interpretation now, sir?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So I'm reading the second paragraph, under point 2 reads:

10             "Establishment of Rogatica Municipal Assembly, earlier Serb

11     Municipality Rogatica, as council members know, was carried out at the

12     end of December 1991, and it was composed of all Serb council members,

13     elected at the first multi-party elections in 1990, total 20 members.

14     Serb Municipal Assembly included also, as per instructions of the

15     Main Serb Democratic Party Board, SDS village board presidents for from

16     the area of the municipality -- total 11."

17             I'll stop there.  Sir, what you were reporting was that the

18     municipality -- the municipal assembly was composed entirely of Serb

19     members; right?

20        A.   I would just like to note an important difference here.  This

21     document, you see the one we're reading now, that is from 1991 when this

22     was some kind of inertia, if I can put it that way, and this municipal

23     assembly as far as I know did not hold a single session as such involving

24     that composition.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one asked you about whether that

 1     assembly convened.  The question was whether it was composed of Serbs

 2     exclusively.  Whether it convened or not is a different question.

 3             Yes, the witness confirms that that was the case.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir, just in response to the last bit of testimony you provided,

 7     in paragraph 2 of your statement, you say in pertinent part --

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have it on the screen, please.  It's

 9     D652.

10        Q.   So at the end of this second paragraph, you say:

11             "At the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, I served as a

12     deputy in the Rogatica Municipal Assembly."

13             Now you don't make any mention in this paragraph that this

14     assembly never met or wasn't carrying out its functions, do you?

15        A.   Please let us clarify this.  I was president of the assembly of

16     the municipality of Rogatica, and that's what I say here, in the period

17     from 1983 until 1985.  As for being a member of the assembly of Rogatica,

18     I was that from 1978 until 2008.

19        Q.   You've read two sentences, neither of which is the one I read to

20     you.  So I put to you again, you say here:

21             "At the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, I served as a

22     deputy in the Rogatica Municipal Assembly."

23             You don't make any suggestion in your statement that that

24     assembly had stopped meeting or wasn't carrying out its functions, do

25     you?

 1        A.   I really want us to understand each other.  I did not understand

 2     what period you were asking me about.

 3        Q.   Well, I'm asking about the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992.

 4     You served as a deputy in the Rogatica Municipal Assembly at that time;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And when you describe that in your statement, you don't make the

 8     claim that you just made in your testimony, that that assembly wasn't

 9     meeting, do you?

10        A.   Please, these are different periods.  I was a member of the

11     Municipal Assembly of Rogatica, let me not go back to that all the time,

12     but let's just look at the 1990s.  Let's look at the first multi-party

13     elections until 1992, for instance.

14             When -- I mean the municipality of Rogatica was divided into two

15     municipalities, and then I remained as a member of the assembly of the

16     Serb municipality of Rogatica.

17             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn back to the previous document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I hope you are aware that you're not

19     answering the question.  The question was:  When you refer to the end of

20     1991 and the beginning of 1992 when, as you state, you served as a deputy

21     in the Rogatica Municipal Assembly, you do not say a word about that

22     assembly not convening, not meeting.  That is what Mr. Traldi was asking

23     you and until now, you have not given an answer.

24             If you're able to answer that question, please do it right away

25     and otherwise, Mr. Traldi will proceed.

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Please, I was in the regular

 2     municipal assembly in 1991 and in 1992, that is to say, the one that was

 3     elected during the multi-party elections all the way up to the moment

 4     where there was this division into two municipalities.  I took part in

 5     this regular work of the regular assembly and its sessions.  This

 6     assembly that had been elected at the multi-party elections.  Am I being

 7     clear on that?

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Let's have the previous document back, P3909, page 5

 9     in the English and page 4 in the B/C/S.

10        Q.   And this is again the report that you're sending, that you're

11     crafting together with the secretary and sending to the Presidency, the

12     headquarters of the army, and others.

13             Now, it says here -- you and the secretary write:

14             "Establishment of Rogatica municipal assembly, earlier Serb

15     municipality Rogatica, as council members know, was carried out at the

16     end of December 1991 ..."

17             So you're informing the Presidency, the Main Staff, the police,

18     the Drina Corps, the members of the assembly themselves, that this is

19     when this assembly was created; right?

20        A.   Please, what is referred to here is what is stated in the

21     archives, that the Serb municipality of Rogatica was established then in

22     accordance with these guidelines.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, apparently --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I do apologise, that was --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  In both the documents, reference is made to the

 1     Rogatica Municipal Assembly.  Were there two institutions known by that

 2     same name at that time, that is, late 1991, early 1992?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Precisely, two bodies.  Because I

 4     would say that this was basically a political decision, and the municipal

 5     assembly was elected at the multi-party elections and it continued to

 6     function.  As far as I know, they held only one such session and I did

 7     not take part in that.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   So first, I'd put to you here you are reporting to the president,

10     the Main Staff, and others specifically about the assembly that was

11     established at the end of December 1991; right?

12        A.   You see, first of all we make a report for the municipal assembly

13     of Rogatica, but primarily when the Serb municipality of Rogatica

14     functioned, and that's 1992.

15        Q.   Is it your evidence now that the information that you're

16     providing here to the Presidency, the Main Staff, and others is not

17     correct?

18        A.   I think they are all correct -- sorry, I just have to say

19     something.  There's this introduction here.  I talk about the period when

20     I was president of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of

21     Rogatica and that was the intention, my intention and the intention of

22     the Executive Board, to represent this, so this is an introduction and

23     the essence is that we want to represent the time when I became president

24     of the Executive Board until the expiry of my term of office.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could we perhaps try to find a

 1     formulation that we talk about.  Apparently there are two municipal

 2     assemblies, Rogatica municipal assemblies.  If we call the one the

 3     elected Rogatica municipal assembly and the other one, which if I

 4     understand you well, was established in December 1991, we call that one,

 5     the December Rogatica municipal assembly so that we have clear different

 6     wording for the two different municipality assemblies.  I suggest that we

 7     proceed in that way but not today, but tomorrow.

 8             Witness, would you also clearly in your answers distinguish

 9     between the one and the other, that is the elected Rogatica municipal

10     assembly and the December Rogatica municipal assembly.

11             We'll adjourn for the day but I would first like to instruct you

12     that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, not to speak

13     or communicate in any other way with whomever it may be, and we'd like to

14     see you back tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.

15             You may now follow the usher.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we resume tomorrow,

19     Tuesday, the 23rd of September, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the

20     morning.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.

22                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

23                           September, 2014 at 9.30 a.m.