1 Tuesday, 23 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good morning, Your Honours. This
7 is case number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Good morning to everyone
9 as well. I would like to inform the parties that Judge Fluegge is for
10 urgent personal reasons unable to continue sitting in this case and since
11 we do not expect that it will be for a duration of more than five days,
12 we have considered whether we are satisfied that it's in the interest of
13 justice to continue to hear the case and Judge Moloto and myself have
14 concluded that it is in the interest of justice. Therefore, we will sit
15 15 bis.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Sokolovic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 WITNESS: MILORAD SOKOLOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you
22 are still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave yesterday at the
23 beginning of your testimony.
24 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.
25 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
2 Q. Good morning, sir. And, sir, I want to begin by following up on
3 two brief matters I brought up yesterday.
4 MR. TRALDI: First, can Exhibit P3913 be brought to the screen.
5 Q. And while it comes up, you testified yesterday at transcript page
6 26018 that:
7 "This municipal assembly, as far as I know, did not hold a single
8 session as such involving that composition."
9 Now, when you gave that testimony, you were referring to the
10 assembly created in December 1991 or as I'm going to call it the Serb
11 assembly; right?
12 A. It held only one session in that year, 1991.
13 Q. And that was the session on the 26th of December; right?
14 A. I suppose so. It was the end of that year.
15 Q. You also met in 1992; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Including in April 1992?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. So when you said yesterday, "This municipal assembly, as far as I
20 know, did not hold a single session involving that composition," what did
21 you mean?
22 A. I mean it was not in that year. In 1991 there was only one
23 session as far as I know. That's about 1991.
24 MR. TRALDI: And actually that will obviate the need for this
25 document, Your Honours. If I could have P3909.
1 Q. And while that comes up, it's true that Serb members of the
2 elected municipal assembly were, by establishment, also members of the
3 Serb assembly; correct?
4 A. Yes. Perhaps I should clarify this once again. The regular
5 municipal assembly of Rogatica was set up after the multi-party elections
6 in 1990, whereas the assembly of the Serbian people of the Serbian
7 assembly, Serbian municipality of Rogatica was established towards the
8 end of 1991.
9 Q. And just to make sure, you've confirmed, right, that Serb members
10 of the elected assembly elected in 1990 were also, by establishment,
11 members of the Serb assembly established in December 1991; correct?
12 A. I think so, with a few more people included.
13 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 5 in the English and 4 in the
14 B/C/S again. And I'm looking at the bottom of the page in the English
15 and the second paragraph under Roman numeral 2 in the B/C/S.
16 Q. Now, here it lists people who will be part of the assembly, and
17 directing your attention to specific sentence, the document says:
18 "Serb municipal assembly included also as per instructions of the
19 main Serb democratic party board SDS village board presidents for from
20 the area of the municipality."
21 So those were the few more people that you just mentioned were
22 included, right, SDS village board presidents?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. And it's correct what it says here, that this assembly was set up
25 pursuant to the instructions of the SDS main board; right?
1 A. I suppose so, considering that I was not a member of the SDS, but
2 from this paper we see that there were some instructions.
3 Q. And you were aware of those instructions at the time that you
4 drafted this paper; right?
5 A. Not really instructions. I only learned about it. The secretary
6 of the assembly is the one who kept documents like this. I never saw
7 them and I didn't need them.
8 Q. Can you just remind us who the secretary was?
9 A. Mile Carkic.
10 Q. Now next I want to turn to your testimony yesterday.
11 MR. TRALDI: And if we could have, please, 65 ter 02559F.
12 Q. Sir, I want to your turn to your testimony yesterday that most of
13 the Muslims in Rogatica left in a convoy in April 1992. So this will be
14 an excerpt from the census.
15 MR. TRALDI: I would ask for page 2 in the B/C/S only. As Your
16 Honours see, we haven't translated all of the numbers in English, of
18 If we could look at line 17, that's Rogatica. And we're going to
19 turn to the next page now also for line 17, page 3 in the B/C/S.
20 On the left side under 1991, third column, we see there were more
21 than 13.000 Muslims in Rogatica in 1991; is that right?
22 A. I hope this data is correct, but I have to correct you. You said
23 that at that time the majority of Muslims left. I don't think I said it
24 that way. I said that a half of the Muslims were already outside of
25 Rogatica, about 3.000 in the area of Zepa and up to 3.000 left on buses
1 and passenger cars towards Sarajevo.
2 The situation was still more or less regular so that the number
3 of Muslims in Rogatica was halved.
4 Q. Now, sir, you testified yesterday that:
5 "In this convoy," and I'm referring to transcript page 26011,
6 "there were about 2.500 to 3.000 Muslims which indicates that most of the
7 Muslim population completely freely decided to move towards Sarajevo."
8 Do I understand your testimony just now to mean that you agree
9 that 2.500 to 3.000 wasn't most of the Muslims in Rogatica municipality?
10 A. No, they were not the majority. And I must correct this. These
11 were not exactly convoys, they were organised trips on buses and
12 passenger cars, and I believe 2.500 to 3.000 residents left in this way
13 completely of their own free will, abandoned Rogatica.
14 Q. When you say of their own free will, did you speak to any of them
15 about why they were leaving?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this excerpt.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6772, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 MR. TRALDI: Now, I'm going to turn to a new topic now. And
22 could we please have 65 ter 31353 for the witness.
23 Q. This is a record of an interview with Mile Ujic conducted by the
24 Rogatica police on the 6th of June 2004. Mr. Ujic was a member of your
25 Crisis Staff and of the Executive Committee in Rogatica; right?
1 A. He was president of the Executive Board in Rogatica from that
2 regular assembly in 1990 until I was elected in the middle of 1992.
3 Q. He was also the minister of industry in SAO Romanija; right? The
4 SAO being the Serb autonomous region of Romanija.
5 A. Possibly. I don't know the details, however, because I was not
6 an activist in that period, in that kind of organising.
7 MR. TRALDI: If we turn to the top of page 3 in the English and
8 the middle of page 2 in the B/C/S.
9 Q. Mr. Ujic is describing a Serbian assembly session at Sjemec, and
10 he says beginning about six lines down in the English:
11 "I went there, but I was surprised by an agenda of the meeting,
12 since the first item on the agenda was appointment of the president of
13 Executive Committee. This appeared a bit absurd to me since I was the
14 president of the Executive Committee but at the same time it surprised
15 all other members and most of the members who did not understand what was
16 this all about. After a brief indignation at the proposed agenda members
17 accepted it, and I only told them that they should first remove me from
18 the office and then appoint a new president since I was legitimately
19 elected president of the Executive Committee. However, what happened
20 happened. The agenda was accepted, the new president, Milorad Sokolovic
21 was elected with explanation that I was too soft and too accommodating in
22 negotiations and that someone more rough should be appointed."
23 Now, is Mr. Ujic telling the truth here about why you were
24 selected to replace him?
25 A. That is the way he sees that session. I have to say I was
1 invited to that session, first of all, as a deputy. The assembly session
2 had been convened by the president and his associates. I came to the
3 session and somebody nominated me. I don't know -- I don't know the
4 details. I was elected at a legitimate session.
5 I would not agree that I belonged to any hard line, and I know
6 Mr. Ujic very well and I don't think that he was a hard liner in any way
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get a clarification.
9 Mr. Sokolovic, at page 6, line 21, you say:
10 "The assembly session had been convened by the president and his
12 When you say "president," who do you mean? Do you mean the same
13 Mr. Ujic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he was not the president of
15 the municipal assembly, that was Mr. Tomislav Antonic, he was president
16 of the assembly. Mile Ujic was president or chairman of the
17 Executive Board.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. When you say president of the assembly, you're referring to the
21 Serb assembly rather than the elected assembly; right?
22 A. Yes, I mean the Serbian assembly. Because Mr. Batinic was
23 vice-president of this regular municipal assembly from 1990.
24 Q. And just for the purposes of the transcript, sir, at line 9
25 today, you were recorded to say Tomislav Antonic was president of the
1 Serb assembly, did you mean to say Tomislav Batinic with a B?
2 A. Yes, Batinic. Batinic is the name, Tomislav the first name.
3 Q. Now, I want to turn now to the negotiations --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, you say that the reasons stated,
5 that's the view of the person who was interviewed, and you said I was
6 elected legitimately. But what was the reason to get rid of the old
7 president and to elect you as the new president?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not like to explain that
9 in detail. It was a legitimate body, the municipal assembly. It had its
10 legal bodies. I was nominated and I accepted that position.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to explain in detail but some
12 explanation, I would appreciate.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Really, believe me, I don't know
14 what I could say except that I was already a prominent political figure
15 by that time. I had been already president of the assembly for two terms
16 of office, and that must be the reason why people held me in high esteem,
17 I would say, and why they nominated me to such high office.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But it still doesn't explain why there was a change
19 at all.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Really, it was not up to me, the
21 municipal assembly was a lawful body with its auxiliary bodies and they
22 decided that I was good for that position.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Again, you've told us now several times that it was
24 a lawful body and that you were legitimately elected, but it still does
25 not explain why the old president had to leave and why there was any need
1 to have a new president.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You should really ask the
3 president of the assembly and the president of the
4 Serbian Democratic Party which was in a way the main political component
5 at that time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You were just sitting there and it all happened to
7 you and you never gave it a thought or you never heard why there was a
8 need to replace the former president?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had been asked before the
10 session while the agenda was being prepared whether I was willing to take
11 up that position because people who dealt with personnel policy were
12 already thinking about putting me in that place, and I did not display
13 any interest in why my predecessor Mile Ujic was being replaced.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you say this was the way he saw it, but
15 if you do not know why he was replaced, you couldn't say that he is
16 wrong, isn't it? Because you didn't know any reason apart from that they
17 elected you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the way he sees it. And I
19 was not in a position to discuss my predecessor Mile Ujic and that's why
20 I didn't think it's right for me to explain why I was nominated.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So he explains in the statement why he was replaced.
22 You have no clue as to what triggered the replacement of the former
23 president. So whether he's right or wrong, you can't tell us.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Sir, just to follow up on one of the answers you gave. You
3 testified today at transcript page -- temporary transcript page 9 that
4 you had been asked before the session while the agenda was being prepared
5 whether you were willing to take up the position of president of the
6 Executive Committee. Who asked you?
7 A. I mainly talked to the president of the municipal assembly in the
8 preparation for this session, Mr. Tomislav Batinic.
9 Q. And you mentioned when you were asked about the reasons that you
10 were chosen to replace Mr. Ujic, you said:
11 "You should really ask the president of the assembly," that's
12 Mr. Batinic, "and the president of the Serbian democratic party."
13 Who was the president of the Serbian Democratic Party in Rogatica
14 at that time?
15 A. At that time, I believe it was Mr. Sveto Veselinovic.
16 MR. TRALDI: Unless the Judges have any other questions on this
17 matter, I would move on.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Just one short question. You said you talked to the
19 president of the municipal assembly. Was he the one who asked you to
20 make yourself available as president?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to him and I believe he
22 had previously spoken to their leadership of the SDS because they were
23 the only important political factor at the time, and they probably made
24 some assessment from the point of view of personnel policy.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Repeatedly you said you talked to him, but he was
1 the one who asked you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he did, because the session
3 was being prepared and I gave my approval, my consent, that if I'm
4 nominated, I'll accept.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when you refer to the leadership of the SDS,
6 leadership at the local level, leadership at the republican level, what
7 did you refer to?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My only contact was with the
9 leaders of the SDS at the local level.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question. You said:
11 "I believe he had previously spoken to their leadership of the
12 SDS because they were the only important political factor."
13 Leadership at what level, that was the only important political
14 factor, local level or higher up?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think concerning these matters
16 only at the local level. It's possible they had other consultations that
17 I didn't know about, but it was mainly the local representatives of the
18 Serbian Democratic Party.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know it or do you believe it?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was not in a position to
21 have contact with higher levels of the SDS.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't know it, it's just assuming that it may
23 have been at a higher level, it could have been at the local level as
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right, because generally
1 speaking I believe it was at the local level. Whether they had any other
2 consultations, I don't know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Now, I want to turn to the negotiations that Mr. Ujic mentioned.
6 MR. TRALDI: And I'll be asking for 65 ter 31322.
7 Q. While it comes up, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you talk
8 about the agreement on the division of Rogatica municipality, and in
9 paragraph 10 you say, after the agreement:
10 "This situation lasted until the St. George's day or
11 approximately for two months. The first killings of Serbs by artillery
12 missiles occurred in 1992 in the area of Borike. The next significant
13 event happened on 21 May 1992."
14 Now, in connection with that evidence, I'd like to look at this
15 report which is from the Serbian municipality of Rogatica Executive Board
16 and says it's to, among others, the Presidency of the Republika Srpska.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we briefly have page 3 in the B/C/S.
18 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
19 A. This signature is mine, yes.
20 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 2 in the English, second
21 paragraph, and page 1 in the B/C/S.
22 Q. And this paragraph reads:
23 "The agreement on the partition of the territory of Rogatica
24 municipality into a Serbian and Muslim municipality was rendered invalid
25 by the Serbian Assembly of Rogatica municipality in its decision of 18
1 May 1992 because the war conflicts broke out."
2 Now, you don't mention in your statement that the Serbian
3 assembly of Rogatica abrogated the agreement, do you?
4 A. Well, I don't mention that in that statement but everything that
5 is written can be read and that can jog one's memory.
6 Q. So this is correct, isn't it, that the Serbian assembly withdrew
7 from the agreement on the 18th of May, 1992?
8 A. Well, yes, that is what is written here so that's the way it's
9 got to be.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sokolovic, you said:
11 "I don't mention that in that statement, but everything that is
12 written can be read and that can jog one's memory."
13 Your statement should contain the whole truth irrespective of
14 whether we read other documents. So don't give us half of the story and
15 then say you can read elsewhere what the whole truth was.
16 Is that clear to you? You can't just select part of what is the
17 truth so as to say we agreed on partition, and then say you can read
18 somewhere else that we abdicated this agreement.
19 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, did we follow the same principle during
20 the testimonies of the Prosecution witnesses? Did we follow the --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever I find that a witness gives us half of the
22 story where important elements are known to the witness and when the
23 witness says I didn't tell it because you can read it elsewhere, if that
24 would happen, I would have reacted. I don't know whether it happened
25 from my recollection, but I certainly would have reminded the witness
1 that he should tell the whole truth.
2 MR. LUKIC: We can start from one of the first witnesses of the
3 Prosecution, Mr. Harland. If you want to check what --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I will check. Give me the --
5 MR. LUKIC: -- he said in his statement and what we found in the
7 JUDGE ORIE: I will certainly look at it if you give me the
8 details of --
9 MR. LUKIC: You can [Overlapping speakers]. Mr. Harland,
10 anything I asked him for seven hours was not in his statement and
11 everything was even different from what was written in his statement.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Did he ever say you can read it elsewhere?
13 MR. LUKIC: So we should find that phrase to be able to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no, no, no.
15 MR. LUKIC: -- to question at the Prosecution witnesses?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I take --
17 MR. LUKIC: I don't think this is fair approach to our --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
19 MR. LUKIC: -- witnesses.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness. Mr. Lukic --
21 MR. LUKIC: And that --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm not used to being interrupted. I
23 give you a full opportunity to tell us what you want to tell us. If you
24 say please read Mr. Harland's testimony and compare the situation with
25 the one we are facing at this moment, I'll certainly do that.
1 So therefore -- and if there was a difference in approach, if it
2 was -- well, to say not unfair to this witness, but if we have been too
3 lenient for Mr. Harland, then I certainly will look at that and I'll
4 consider it and put it on the record if need be.
5 MR. LUKIC: Or you can see Mr. Higgs, their expert.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Give me --
7 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
9 MR. LUKIC: I can give you every single one, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
11 MR. LUKIC: The cross-examination wouldn't be necessary if
12 everything is there.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you --
14 MR. LUKIC: That's why we have cross-examination.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then you misunderstand, unfortunately, Mr. Lukic,
16 what the difference is between the present situation and the ordinary
17 situation of cross-examination.
18 MR. LUKIC: No, I understand perfectly.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Cross-examination is there to test the evidence of
20 the witness. But as soon as a witness says, "I only gave you half of the
21 story because I felt that you could read the whole of the story
22 elsewhere," that is different from normal cross-examination.
23 I do agree with you that in cross-examination, the evidence of
24 the witness will be tested, but here I responded to a specific
25 observation by this witness, give me the sources, the exact references on
1 where we, in your view, behaved not as we should have done, and we'll
2 read it and we'll look at it. But until now, to say what happens here,
3 cross-examination is not needed any how, if you would adopt my views on
4 what a witness is expected to tell as the whole truth, I disagree with
5 you on that respect. But again, I will re-read every single instance,
6 every single instance you will refer to.
7 You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.
8 MR. LUKIC: One more observation, Your Honour, I'm sorry.
9 Whatever witness said was truth. It was very short statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't say it was not true.
11 MR. LUKIC: He --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are revisiting. If you want to
13 further -- if you want to further deal with the matter while giving the
14 references, you can also make submissions as to the matters you are
15 raising now.
16 Mr. Traldi may now proceed.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Sir, I want to turn to the end of this same paragraph.
19 The last sentence reads:
20 "Because the war conflict broke out the Serbian Assembly of
21 Rogatica municipality took the decision to declare the entire territory
22 of the former Rogatica municipality a Serbian municipality."
23 Now, you don't mention in your statement that after withdrawing
24 from the agreement, the Serb assembly of Rogatica declared all of the
25 territory of Rogatica to be Serb territory, do you?
1 A. Well that is what this decision says.
2 But I would just like to ask you something kindly, Mr. President.
3 I am not a lawyer. I am a technical person, if you will. As for this
4 statement that I signed, the people who helped me thought that it was
5 sufficient for me to give answers to certain questions on the basis of an
6 outline, so I am not a professional and I'm not really trained to write a
7 long paper on this. It's been more than 20 years now and I remember
8 quite a few things, but I have to say that I will always and invariably
9 be telling the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Sir, just to be perfectly clear, what I'm putting to you is that
13 in your statement, you haven't given a complete and accurate picture of
14 the events surrounding the agreement on dividing the territory. That you
15 cannot properly understand that agreement without knowing that the Serb
16 assembly withdrew from it and claimed the entire municipality as Serb
17 territory. That's true, isn't it?
18 A. I have to remind you of this. When we started discussing a
19 solution to the problem, the two sides, the Muslim and the Serb sides, we
20 said that we should do everything possible to avoid a conflict. If
21 killing starts then all talks end because killing is an act that prevents
23 So all of this is after the well-known killings of Serbs
24 committed by Muslims. And then all talks stopped after this Serb patrol
25 was attacked. After that, the representatives of the Muslims said you
1 cannot get the body until there are 15 corpses, and I said thank you very
2 much, we're not going to talk anymore. And after this happened, we did
3 not talk anymore at all.
4 Q. Now, actually, sir, the negotiations about the body you just
5 mentioned, that's in your statement and that refers to
6 Drazenko Mihajlovic; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said he was killed on the 21st of May, that's after this
9 decision to claim the entire municipality, isn't it?
10 A. Well, I really cannot link that up now unless you remind me of
11 the dates, because I know full well when this happened, all of this in
12 relation to the death of Drazen Mihajlovic.
13 Q. Sir, you say here in the third line of this paragraph that the
14 decision to withdraw was taken on the 18th of May, the decision by the
15 Serb assembly to withdraw from the agreement was taken on the 18th of
16 May, 1992. That's right, isn't it?
17 A. Well, it's probably right because that's what is written there.
18 I cannot have any information that would be better.
19 Q. And you say in paragraph 10 of your statement, D652, in pertinent
20 part, that:
21 "The next significant event happened on 21 May 1992 when a Serb
22 patrol came across an ambush in the territory controlled by the Serb
23 majority in the municipality of Rogatica when Drazenko Mihajlovic was
25 So I have two questions about that sentence. First, that's on
1 the 21st, that's after this decision to withdraw from the agreement;
3 A. Well, in terms of the date, yes, but before that, there was
4 St. George's day when the first killings started.
5 Q. And second, in that sentence you refer to "territory controlled
6 by the Serb majority." The Serbs were of course not a majority in the
7 municipality of Rogatica, were they?
8 A. They were not.
9 Q. And just to complete our discussion of the two assemblies from
10 yesterday, from this point, when the agreement was withdrawn from by the
11 Serb assembly, it was the Serb assembly that made -- that met that made
12 decisions about life in the municipality of Rogatica; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And it's the Serb assembly that you're describing here, as well
15 in your report that we looked at earlier this morning; right?
16 A. Well, yes.
17 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document 65 ter 31322.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6773, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P6773 is admitted into evidence.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Now, we've discussed some of the early conflict. There was a
23 large-scale attack on Muslim areas of Rogatica by Bosnian Serb forces
24 just a few days after the Serb assembly withdrew from the agreement;
1 A. I think that that was after the killing of Drazenko Mihajlovic.
2 Q. Very shortly after, right around the 22nd and 23rd of May?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I'd put to you that many Muslims left those areas in response
5 to that attack. That's true, isn't it?
6 A. Well, I don't think so. Because, for instance, the biggest
7 settlement, the town of Rogatica, my mother, my sister, and so on lived
8 there then and these Muslims who were majority in town, and they all
9 stayed even after that.
10 Q. And the settlements that were attacked, the Muslim settlements
11 that were attacked, do you know if the residents stayed or not?
12 A. Well, you see, I assume that perhaps in that area where
13 Mihajlovic was killed that part of the Muslims left then. However, I
14 have to tell you what happened afterwards. After this happened, the
15 Muslim leadership decided to move out of Rogatica slowly, led, for
16 example, by the president of the municipal assembly of Rogatica.
17 Immediately after that, they were relocated. They went a few kilometres
18 out of Rogatica. And after that, they did not return to Rogatica. They
19 continued towards Medjedja going through Muslim villages. That is one
20 wing and the other wing one went westward, again led by some military
21 officers and so on, and then they would pass through the municipality of
22 Rogatica across the Praca river then Ustipraca and then further up, and I
23 understand that that was an instruction. They were the majority there
24 and they left.
25 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask that the court officer call up
1 Exhibit P352 now. This is one of General Mladic's notebooks.
2 Q. And while it comes up, sir, we were discussing abrogating the
3 agreement, withdrawing from the agreement about division of the
4 municipality. Was that decided spontaneously on the 18th or had you and
5 other members of the Serb assembly been discussing it beforehand?
6 A. Well, you see, always when preparing a certain gathering, these
7 preparations have to be carried out. If there is a municipal assembly
8 session it has to be prepared. The agenda has to be set and so on and so
10 Q. About how long before the 18th had the discussions about
11 withdrawing from the agreement been going on, one day, several days,
12 several weeks?
13 A. Well, I think you could have been only, I don't know, seven days.
14 I don't think it's ten days just because things got so complicated after
15 the 6th of May, after this first attack against the Serbs in the
16 municipality of Rogatica.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have page 349 in the English and page 357
18 in the B/C/S of this document. And this time I think I've given the page
19 for the B/C/S transcript and we've gotten the B/C/S original. If we
20 could have the other B/C/S version. And I'm sorry, I should have been
21 more specific.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That is the typewritten B/C/S version.
23 MR. TRALDI: The typewritten B/C/S version, yeah. I think I did
24 it the other way last time and it's possible the Registry and I have both
25 tried to adjust to each other and wound up with the opposite problem.
1 Q. We see here in the middle of the page note 17 May 1992 Sokolac,
2 1200 hours, talks with representatives of Rogatica, Olovo, Han Pijesak,
3 Pale, and the Belgrade people from this area.
4 Now, before moving on, this is a meeting that we'll see was also
5 attended by President Karadzic and by Mr. Krajisnik the president of the
6 Bosnian Serb Assembly, did you also attend this meeting as one of the
7 representatives from Rogatica?
8 A. I do not remember attending such a meeting.
9 MR. TRALDI: Now turning to page 351 in the English and 359 in
10 the B/C/S transcript, we see President Karadzic speaking and he says:
11 "We're looking for results from the army, that's their job."
12 Were you told that he had said this at the meeting?
13 A. No, I don't know about anything like that.
14 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P3176, please. This will be an
15 article about the same meeting. Or a meeting between the same senior
16 officials and representatives of the same areas.
17 Q. And if I could direct your attention to point 5 on page 2 in both
18 languages. It refers to Mr. Krajisnik's remarks. And it says that he
19 "stressed that the time is ripe for a demarcation of the areas between
20 Croats, Serbs, and Muslims because as he said a common state with them is
21 no longer possible not because we do not want that but because that is
22 what they want."
23 So my question for you is you have said that you began discussing
24 your intentions to abrogate the agreement which resulted in claiming the
25 entire Rogatica municipality several days before this meeting. Do you
1 know if any of the Rogatica representatives who were at this meeting
2 informed Karadzic, Krajisnik, Mladic, and the other RS leaders present of
3 their intentions to claim the entire municipality of Rogatica?
4 A. I repeat once again, I don't think I attended the meeting and I
5 don't know about this. I mean, I don't know that this discussion
6 happened. Or at least I do not recall.
7 Q. Do you know who would have been the Rogatica representatives to
8 such a meeting?
9 A. Well, I assume that these more significant meetings, if I can put
10 it that way, were attended by people from the SDS, that they were
11 invited. I imagine it could have been the president of the SDS, the
12 president of the Serb assembly, and so on, Serb municipality.
13 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'm about to turn to a new topic. I
14 see we're just a minute or two short of the break and for continuity I'd
15 request that we break now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's take the break now. Could you tell us
17 how much time you'd need after the break?
18 MR. TRALDI: It's been a little bit difficult to predict how long
19 an answer will take. I anticipate I will be done in the next session but
20 probably towards the end of the session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take the break after the witness has left the
23 We'd like to see you back, Mr. Sokolovic, in 20 minutes from now.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Just one brief follow-up on the meeting we discussed on May 17th
7 immediately before the break. You testified at transcript -- temporary
8 transcript page 22, line 12, that Messrs. Batinic and Veselinovic were
9 among the people likely to attend such a meeting and you identified them
10 by their titles, the president of the SDS and the president of the Serb
11 municipality or the Serb assembly. And they discussed military issues at
12 this meeting. Was Rajko Kusic also one of the people who would be likely
13 to attend such a meeting?
14 A. First of call, Rajko is Kusic with a K, if that's who you are
15 speaking of. As for the meeting, I don't know about it. I don't know
16 who was there. I certainly wasn't there, so I can't say anything.
17 MR. TRALDI: Now, if we could have P3909 again. And I'll be
18 looking at page 28 in the English and page 25 in the B/C/S.
19 Q. I'm interested in the paragraph that reads:
20 "The administrative authority, i.e., the refugee committee,
21 commenced, in accordance with the existing regulations of
22 Republika Srpska, to find temporary accommodation for refugees in
23 deserted apartments and houses by issuing special decisions on such
24 temporary accommodation."
25 Now, many of those deserted apartments and houses had been
1 deserted by their Muslim inhabitants who'd left Rogatica; right?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Now, an immense amount of deserted Muslim property in Rogatica
4 was plundered, wasn't it?
5 A. I think so.
6 MR. TRALDI: Now if we could turn to page 32 in the English and
7 29 in the B/C/S.
8 Q. Now, point 9 is where you discuss the plunder of deserted Muslim
9 property. I'm actually going to direct your attention to the second
10 paragraph under the point. And you write here:
11 "The greatest responsibility for the situation elaborated under
12 points 8 and 9," point 9 again being the plunder of deserted Muslim
13 property, "The greatest responsibility falls upon the command of
14 Rogatica Brigade."
15 What did you mean that the command of the Rogatica Brigade bore
16 the greatest responsibility for the plunder of the deserted Muslim
18 A. I don't understand what -- what is the question?
19 Q. Can you explain to us why you said that the greatest
20 responsibility for the immense plunder of deserted Muslim property fell
21 upon the command of the Rogatica Brigade? What made you write that?
22 A. Because there was a tight co-operation with the command --
23 between the command of the Rogatica Brigade and the police. The police
24 were less numerous. The brigade was numerically the strongest and some
25 of them behaved in a very lax way and that was the distinction between
1 them and the policemen who were relatively few.
2 MR. TRALDI: If we could look back at point 6, and it will be at
3 the top of the page in B/C/S and in English, I think.
4 Q. We read that:
5 "Cooperation with the command of the brigade of Rogatica was not
6 achieved fully and sufficiently, especially recently, and that thanks to
7 the incorrect behaviour of its commander, and especially after he gained
8 rank and medals, with which the incorrect behaviour got worse."
9 Now that commander was Mr. Rajko Kusic; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was the incorrect behaviour you were referring to here?
12 A. Well, we were thinking of his day-to-day attitude and behaviour.
13 The civilian authority's importance was often minimised, and when you
14 give people weapons it tends to change their behaviour.
15 Q. Sir, I want to turn now to what happened to those Muslim
16 civilians who you say stayed in Rogatica.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, just for the record,
18 Mr. Sokolovic, can you tell us of which army was this Rogatica Brigade a
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Rogatica Brigade was part of
21 the Army of Republika Srpska.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Now, sir, Muslim civilians were in fact detained at several
25 locations in Rogatica; right?
1 A. I would not say that they were detained, especially not all of
3 Q. The municipal assembly received communications from this
4 Rogatica Brigade confirming that Muslim civilians were being held in
5 several locations in Rogatica, didn't you? And of course I mean the Serb
6 assembly here.
7 A. First of all, we already know that the municipal assembly
8 convenes by itself and there are officials who do their work such as the
9 secretary of the assembly, the president of the assembly, et cetera.
10 As for that awareness, as far as I remember, the secondary school
11 centre was one such place organised by the police or the army, I don't
12 know. I know that it wasn't organized by the assembly. It was one place
13 where people could find shelter, both the Serbs and the Muslims and the
14 few Croats that lived there.
15 Q. Let's look at one of the communications that the Rogatica Brigade
16 sent to the assembly.
17 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 085851 [Realtime transcript
18 read in error "05851"].
19 Q. So this is a report --
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: 0 --
21 MR. TRALDI: 8581, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. Just to correct it on the record.
23 MR. TRALDI: Thank you.
24 Q. This is a report from the Rogatica Brigade to the municipal
25 assembly of Rogatica dated the 30th of November, 1992. Directing your
1 attention to the bottom left-hand corner in the B/C/S version, do you
2 recognise the signature confirming receipt?
3 A. I know. I think it's about Nada Sinsija. She was one of the
4 desk officers at the administration.
5 Q. Now, one of the people who would have reviewed a report like this
6 is the president of the Executive Committee; right?
7 A. No, because everybody had their own post office box. Mail for
8 the municipal assembly was addressed to the president, and the other
9 addressee had his own post office box. The commander had his own mail
10 coming to his own address. I don't remember that I've ever seen this
11 letter before.
12 Q. Let's look at the document briefly and see if it refreshes your
13 recollection. Reading from the top, Captain Kusic says:
14 "Since the first day of combat activities, the members of
15 Rogatica Brigade have treated civilian population according to the
16 Geneva Convention. We have separated civilian population from extreme
17 combatants we have fought against. With your approval, we have gathered
18 civilians at the secondary school, church centre, and socially owned
19 enterprise, Ergela, in Rogatica."
20 Do you see that text?
21 A. I see that, but this text relates to the president of the
22 municipal assembly, I suppose, not me.
23 Q. Were you aware that civilians were being detained in those
25 A. I knew that people gathered in the secondary school centre not
1 only Muslims in the conviction they would find shelter there from all
2 sorts of tensions and friction. And as for the rest, I did not have any
3 involvement or contact in that. This is a question more for the police
4 that was in charge of law enforcement and the commander of the
5 Rogatica Brigade.
6 Q. When you say the secondary school centre, we're discussing the
7 Veljko Vlahovic school; right?
8 A. Yes, correct.
9 Q. Now, did you ever go there yourself?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, the Chamber's received evidence in, for example,
12 Exhibit P309, that in fact the civilians in the Vlahovic school were not
13 treated according to the Geneva Conventions but were subjected to
14 beatings, rape, and torture, and some were taken out of the school and
15 killed. That's true, isn't it?
16 A. I can't confirm anything considering that I did not participate,
17 I did not visit, nor did the Executive Board ever discuss these matters.
18 You should ask the police and the army, or rather the command, and here,
19 of course, people who have their bad experiences or otherwise.
20 Q. Now, in the next paragraph, the document says:
21 "After a sufficient number of civilian population was gathered
22 you," which I take to mean the municipal assembly, "have organised their
23 transport to Sarajevo, Bijeljina, Olovo, and to Zepa which was escorted
24 by civilian police."
25 So it's correct, isn't it, that the civilian authorities together
1 with the civilian police, organised transport of these people out of
2 detention facilities and out of Rogatica municipality.
3 A. You should ask the president of the municipal assembly and his
4 associates. The Executive Board of Rogatica municipality never dealt
5 with this matter.
6 Q. I'm not asking at the moment whether you dealt with this matter.
7 I'm asking, you were aware, weren't you, that convoys of people were
8 being organized by the assembly out of Rogatica from these locations.
9 A. No, I didn't know any details. And again, you have to make a
10 distinction between the Executive Board and the president of the
11 municipality and his associates. I repeat again, the Executive Board did
12 not deal with this matter.
13 Q. Sir, I think you're reiterating in response to a number of these
14 questions that you don't believe this was under your personal area of
15 responsibility. When I ask whether you know if something happened or
16 not, I'm not asking whether it was in your area of responsibility, simply
17 whether you know that it happened. And if I'm interested in whether it
18 was part of your job, I'll ask about that specifically. Can we agree to
19 proceed that way?
20 A. Well, you see, as a citizen --
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I believe this is
22 asked and answered in response to the previous question.
23 MR. TRALDI: I'm fairly sure that's the first time I've asked the
24 witness if he could agree to proceed in that fashion, so --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Your objection is denied.
1 MR. TRALDI:
2 Q. Directing your attention to the last paragraph of the document.
3 It reads:
4 "We would like to mention that you have the lists of the loyal
5 Muslims in the area of Rogatica municipality as well as the lists of the
6 ones who were sent away from Rogatica in the previous months during
7 combat activities. Therefore, you possess the information required by
8 Republika Srpska Presidency."
9 Now, were you aware that the Serb assembly in Rogatica was in
10 possession of lists of loyal Muslims and of Muslims who had been sent
12 A. I did not know as president of the Executive Board, but the
13 president of the municipal assembly should have to respond to the
14 question whether he had any communication on the subject and whether he
15 received these papers.
16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P6774, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P6774 is admitted.
20 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask for 65 ter 08281.
21 Q. And this is a report from the RS MUP in 2004. And we see in the
22 first paragraph that it is the result of a process of gathering
23 information regarding collection centres where persons of Bosniak
24 nationality stayed in the region of Rogatica. And it says the following
25 information was gathered.
1 The first paragraph refers to a building of the former nursery
2 garden and that was known as Rasadnik; right?
3 A. I suppose so. There's a lot of text here. I would have to --
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you need more time to read it, you'll have an
5 opportunity to do so.
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Now the second paragraph, sir, refers to the malt house building
8 which it says was also the seat of the body known as the Crisis Staff.
9 Now, you testified yesterday at transcript page 26015 that after
10 St. George's day 1992 you were present at the malt house building every
11 day unless you had a business trip or a meeting somewhere else. Do you
12 recall that testimony?
13 A. Let's clear one thing up. The building of the Sladara factory --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was whether you recall that
15 you gave that testimony yesterday. Could you please confirm that you do
16 recall or say I don't remember that I gave testimony as presented by
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat, the seat of the Crisis
19 Staff and the municipal organs of Rogatica as of St. George's day was in
20 the malt factory as opposed to the Ergela, the stables building, which is
21 in a different location.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. Sir, I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that wasn't the question. There's no
25 dispute about that. Do you recall that yesterday you testified that
1 after St. George's day in 1992, you were present at the malt house
2 building every day unless you had a business trip or a meeting somewhere
3 else. That's the question, whether you remember that you told us that
4 yesterday, your presence at the malt house factory or the malt house
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that and I confirm it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Now, you were aware that people were detained in the same
10 building where the Crisis Staff was headquartered, weren't you?
11 A. No. No people were detained in that factory.
12 Q. Well, I want to point you to the example of one specific
13 detainee, Mehmed Agic, and the Krajisnik trial judgement made the
14 following finding at paragraph 680:
15 "On 21 June 1992, 'Chetniks' in olive drab uniform captured
16 Witness Agic who had been involved in organising the defence in Rogatica
17 before the shelling."
18 That's Mehmed Agic; right?
19 A. I am aware that Mehmed Agic was arrested somewhere there, but he
20 was not kept or even interrogated in the offices of that factory in the
21 same part of that building that was occupied by the municipal organs of
22 Rogatica, and he was certainly not detained.
23 Just one more thing. It's a large building. It's possible that
24 in some part of the building he was kept, but in the area of the building
25 occupied by the administration of Rogatica, there was nobody detained.
1 Q. Who occupied the other areas of the building?
2 A. Well, it was all part of an industrial complex. I don't know
3 even how much space it occupied. But the Executive Board and the rest of
4 the administration of Rogatica occupied the office space that previously
5 belonged to the general manager. That's where I and my associates
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were not asked about where you were.
8 You were asked about who occupied the other parts of the building. If
9 you know, tell us; if you don't know, tell us as well.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Now, you said the Executive Board. On the 21st of June, 1992, in
13 fact it would have been the Crisis Staff that was still in operation;
15 A. This was done in parallel because the Crisis Staff met only from
16 time to time. Most of them had their work assignments, whereas I acted
17 also as president of the Crisis Staff and president of the
18 Executive Board and later I was elected president of the Executive Board.
19 Q. So is it your evidence now that you do not know whether civilians
20 were detained in the building that also served as the headquarters of the
21 Crisis Staff and the Executive Board?
22 A. In that building, such persons were certainly never detained.
23 Q. And Mr. Agic, your evidence is you don't -- you said about a page
24 ago that there were other areas of the building. Is it your evidence
25 that you don't know whether he was detained there? Or is it your
1 evidence that he -- that you know he was not detained there?
2 A. I'll try to be more precise. I don't know.
3 MR. TRALDI: Now can 65 ter 31352 [Realtime transcript read in
4 error "31312"] be brought to the screens.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you started reading from a trial
6 judgement which did not in any way touch upon the building. I don't know
7 whether you pursue that or not.
8 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, and you're right. To be fully fair to the
9 witness, I think I ought to say that judgement, that paragraph of the
10 judgement continues that they beat Mr. Agic and took him to the Sladara
11 malt house in Rogatica where they detained him for two or three days.
12 Now, the witness had confirmed or -- that he knew he was arrested
13 and stated that he didn't know whether he was detained there which was
14 why I didn't finish the paragraph.
15 Q. But, sir, if you have any additional comment on that finding.
16 A. I don't have any comments except for this knowledge that I have.
17 I knew Mr. Agic personally. I know that he was arrested. I know that he
18 was exchanged, I think, and I think I saw him once or twice after the
19 war. We did not talk about that at all, though.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: What did you say the 65 ter number is that you are
21 calling for?
22 MR. TRALDI: The next one will be 31352.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
24 MR. TRALDI: And while --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: It was wrongly recorded.
1 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, or you misspoke. I don't --
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, I've got it correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. But a mistake was made somewhere.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. TRALDI: I'm willing to concede it's likely to have been
8 While it comes up, I'd tender the previous document,
9 65 ter 08281.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, Mr. Registrar tells me P3339 might be
11 the same document.
12 MR. TRALDI: We'll check that and I'll withdraw my request for
13 the moment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You can --
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can still call it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You can still call it if you want to put any
17 questions to the witness about it, and then we'll find out whether it's
18 the same document. So whether the witness answered then your questions
19 on the basis of the 65 ter document or on exactly the same admitted
20 exhibit can be changed letter.
21 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, I hadn't understood whether it's the same
22 document as what I've called to the screen or as the exhibit that I just
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think it was --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The 65 ter.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- the 65 ter number you just mentioned, that that
2 was a document which was quite a while ago admitted as P3339.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I would not call it a comedy of errors but rather a
5 tragedy of errors. It's 2229 and not as I said before, 3339.
6 MR. TRALDI: And that does refer to the previous document, and so
7 I would withdraw my request to re-tender it at this stage.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: By previous document you mean 08281?
9 MR. TRALDI: According to Ringtail on our screens, yes.
10 According to the e-court system.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was then another error on my side.
12 Let's now look at the document you asked for.
13 MR. TRALDI: This is Mr. Agic's statement which he swore under
14 oath was truthful. Now, if we could have page 5 in the English, and I
15 believe also in the B/C/S. Sorry, I've provided the wrong B/C/S page
16 number. I imagine I'll be -- I've been corrected already.
17 Q. So we have the correct page now. And we see him describing his
19 Now, directing your attention to roughly the middle of the page
20 in the B/C/S, the name is hard to read, but do you see the name Radisav
21 also known as Pjano at the beginning of the line on the left? And that's
22 Radisav Ljubinac?
23 A. Ljubinac, yes.
24 Q. And it describes that Ljubinac and other soldiers dressed in
25 camouflage and olive drab started insulting Mr. Agic and others calling
1 us Ustashas and beating us all over with a rubber truncheon. Now, that's
2 at the time of his arrest. I want to look a few lines further down, and
3 it says:
4 "They pushed us into the APC and took us to the Sladara in
5 Rogatica where they had their barracks at that time."
6 Now there's only one Sladara malt house factory in Rogatica;
8 A. I again wish to recall the following. I have a feeling that
9 things are not being understood properly. As far as I know, the command
10 of the Rogatica Brigade was in the facilities of Ergela and other
11 organisations, and this was a separate entity in relation to the malt
12 factory Sladara.
13 My impression from this letter is that all of this could have
14 happened only on the premises of the Ergela. Even Upitrans used to be
15 the owner of that facility. It's in the northern part of Rogatica. But
16 it does not belong to the compound of the malt factory.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Witness, once again, the question was:
18 "There is only one Sladara malt house factory in Rogatica;
20 The answer is either "yes" or a "no" or "I don't know."
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was just one malt factory
22 but these events did not take place in the malt factory, Sladara.
23 JUDGE ORIE: This brings me to another matter, Mr. Traldi. The
24 witness told us that he was aware that this person was arrested. On all
25 the other questions, it seems that he has hardly any knowledge about what
1 followed and he contradicts this statement on a basis which is unknown to
2 this Chamber.
3 Now, I don't know what you are heading for, but if the witness
4 doesn't know anything about this arrest and what then followed, then you
5 can put seven statements to him, doesn't make any sense.
6 I'm not knowing where you are heading for but I just would like
7 to bring this to your attention, that if you pursue this line of
8 questioning then of course you must end up somewhere you may be aware of
9 the Chamber is not at this moment.
10 MR. TRALDI: I am intending to end up there in the next two
11 questions or so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
13 MR. TRALDI: So I have only one more point in the document to
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. Please proceed.
16 MR. TRALDI: Now turning to the top of page 6 in the English, and
17 the sixth line down, and also I believe the top of the next page in the
18 B/C/S. That's page 12.
19 Q. We read:
20 "Soon afterwards, Kusic, Ujic, and two or three of their henchmen
21 went to the room opposite us and started beating Milic and two members of
22 the Hodzic family asking for information about the couriers for Zepa."
23 Now, at this time Mr. Kusic and Mr. Ujic were members of your
24 Crisis Staff as well as officers in the Rogatica Brigade; correct?
25 A. They were members of the Crisis Staff all the time, but
1 especially Mr. Kusic did not attend sessions very often. I've already
2 said that about half of those 20 members usually attended, about 11 or
4 Mr. President, I would like to recall something else.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, please just answer the questions. The
6 question was whether they were members of the Crisis Staff as well as
7 officers in the Rogatica Brigade. There was no question about how often
8 they attended meetings. You confirm that they were members and that they
9 were also officers in the Rogatica Brigade.
10 Then please put your next question to the witness, Mr. Traldi.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. So I'd put to you that what this statement reflects is that
13 members of the Crisis Staff you were president of abused a prisoner in
14 the building that served as the headquarters of the Crisis Staff at the
15 time. You must have been aware of that, mustn't you?
16 A. That's not correct. There was never any mistreatment on the
17 premises that were used by the municipal assembly at the malt factory.
18 Again, I wish to recall that these were two separate facilities.
19 Q. Sir, when you say these were two separate facilities, are you
20 suggesting that you believe these events may have occurred at Ergela
21 where the Rogatica Brigade's barracks were?
22 A. Well, possibly. You see the command of the Rogatica Brigade, I'm
23 going to be very specific now, was in the premises of Upitrans and Ergela
24 was opposite that facility. And both facilities were used by the
1 I really cannot speak about any details. They certainly know
2 what they used for what. But they certainly did not do any of their work
3 at the premises in Sladara, the malt factory, where the Crisis Staff was.
4 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31333.
5 Q. And, sir, this is a record of an interview you gave to the
6 Rogatica police in 2004. And looking at the bottom of the page in the
7 English, we see you told them:
8 "The Crisis Staff was an organ that did not deal with
9 operational, military, and police tasks, nor was it informed about the
10 activities of the police and army."
11 Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. TRALDI: Turn to the top of the next -- or turn to the next
14 paragraph. I think it may be the top of the next page in English.
15 Q. You state that in view of that fact you have no information
16 regarding the military police and paramilitary formations that were
17 active in the area of the Rogatica municipality in that period.
18 Now, we've seen that the municipal assembly received reports from
19 the Rogatica Brigade at a time when you were a member. You've told us
20 where the barracks are. You've told us that officers in the brigade
21 served as part of your Crisis Staff. So I'd put to you that you were not
22 truthful with the Rogatica police when you stated this and in fact you do
23 have knowledge about the military police and paramilitary formations in
24 Rogatica in 1992.
25 A. I did not have any such information in terms of official
1 communication or any kind of reporting to the Crisis Staff, if I can put
2 it that way. I state with full responsibility that the police did their
3 work, the military did their work, and the Executive Board of the
4 municipality of Rogatica carried out their work within the civilian
6 Q. Is it your position that the military never provided reports or
7 updates to the Executive Committee on the work they were doing in their
9 A. I think they didn't.
10 MR. TRALDI: Could 65 ter 31354 be brought to the screen, and
11 this will be the last document that I show the witness.
12 Q. Sir, this is a letter to the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade
13 command from the Republika Srpska municipality of Rogatica Executive
14 Committee dated 30 November 1992. Do you recognise the signature on the
15 bottom right part of the B/C/S?
16 A. I think it's my signature.
17 Q. Now, the first paragraph reads:
18 "At the session attended by the president of the municipal
19 assembly, held on 28th November 1992, the municipality of Rogatica
20 Executive Committee was informed about the letter, strictly confidential
21 number 69/92, dated 14th November, 1992, submitted to the Rogatica
22 municipal assembly by the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade on the 17th
23 of November, 1992."
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. TRALDI: And turning to page 2 in the English, last
3 Q. We read, and you write:
4 "Therefore, the Executive Committee invites the brigade command
5 on this occasion, too, to discuss every current problem with
6 representatives of the municipal assembly, Executive Committee, or
7 administration organs and try to find a joint solution for certain
9 Do you see that as well?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So I'd put to you that this reflects that you did, in fact,
12 receive reports about what the brigade was doing in its military domain,
13 and you did, in fact, in your official capacity communicate with the
14 brigade about issues and try to find joint solutions to certain problems.
15 That's true, isn't it?
16 A. Well, you see, I really need to see this letter to see what the
17 answer is. We had active communication with the command and -- sorry.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if you say "I need to read the whole
19 letter, otherwise I can't answer your questions." Then you will be given
20 an opportunity to do so.
21 I also could imagine on the basis of the text that was read to
22 you that you could already answer the question, but if you consider it
23 necessary to read the whole of the letter, a copy will be printed out and
24 you will be given two minutes to read that letter.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Would you like an opportunity to read the entirety, sir?
2 A. Do you mean this letter? No. I'm interested in the letter from
3 the Rogatica Brigade because, you see, we only communicated in part; for
4 example, supplies, work assignments, food, et cetera. We never got any
5 professional assignments from the MUP or from the military except to give
6 this kind of logistical support.
7 So I assume that this letter was in that spirit but I need to see
8 the letter of the brigade.
9 Q. When you say you never got any professional assignments, you did
10 in fact receive reports on what they were doing and requests for
11 assistance, didn't you?
12 A. No, not what they were doing. Those would be professional
13 assignments, theirs and the police. But in terms of supplies, logistics,
14 and perhaps deploying people for work assignments, work duty, for
15 example, they'd work in a factory or elsewhere.
16 Q. So you never discussed, for instance, at Crisis Staff sessions
17 ongoing issues related to territorial defence and protection of the
18 Serbian people?
19 A. Well, I would say only to the extent to which it applies to
20 logistics; namely, what is necessary for these formations to exist
21 excluding weapons.
22 Q. What about the activities of the army and its incorporation into
23 the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did that come up
24 at Crisis Staff sessions? And if it would assist we can call back up
1 JUDGE ORIE: And is the letter to which this letter refers, is
2 that letter available?
3 MR. TRALDI: I can say I haven't located it, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You haven't located it.
5 MR. TRALDI: When we get P3913 back up, we'll be looking at
6 page 3 in the English and also in the B/C/S. I'm looking for the third
7 paragraph in the English.
8 Q. And it reads:
9 "The agenda that was discussed at the Crisis Staff sessions
10 included basic agenda items from the Crisis Staff domain; i.e., the
11 ongoing issues referring to the domain of territorial defence and
12 protection of the Serbian people and its property, supplying people with
13 all types of essential goods, estimation of political and security
14 situation in the area of the municipality, the activities of the army and
15 its incorporation into the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina, and other similar issues."
17 So I'd put to you that in fact you were aware of the military
18 formations in the area. You did communicate with them not entirely about
19 logistic issues but also about matters within their military domain, and
20 so your statement to the Rogatica police in 2004 was not correct.
21 A. I do not accept that because I think that all of the statements
22 were responsible ones. We never dealt with concrete issues related to
23 the work of the army or the police, but I have to tell you that we
24 provided full support when the VRS was established to have that component
25 function, and we always supported it only in the domain of logistics.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions for the
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
4 MR. TRALDI: I do tender the last two documents that I used which
5 are 65 ter 31354, the letter from the Executive Committee, and 31333, the
6 Rogatica MUP interview of Mr. Sokolovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the first one, the letter.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Will be Exhibit P6775, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
10 The second one, the interview.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Will be Exhibit P6776, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] A few, Your Honour.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
16 Q. Mr. Sokolovic, during your examination today, there was
17 discussion about abrogating the agreement on the division of the Rogatica
18 municipality into the Serb and Muslim parts. What led to that decision
19 made by the municipality of Rogatica to abrogate that agreement?
20 A. Before answering, I wish to recall the following. The
21 municipality of Rogatica was never divided in the urban area, that is to
22 say the centre of Rogatica, so a population of 8.500 and --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, you're here to answer questions,
24 not to --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- tell us what you find relevant and important but
2 rather to answer the questions that are put to you by Mr. Stojanovic at
3 this moment. What caused it to abrogate?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I apologise,
5 Mr. President, and let me respond once again.
6 I would put it this way: The situation changed in the territory
7 of the municipality of Rogatica. The population became homogenous and
8 the Muslim population, that was the majority population. Until then
9 Rogatica was a town under control and they started moving in two
10 directions, to the south and to the west, and therefore it was believed
11 that control should be exercised over that territory, that life should be
12 organised, and so on.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. From a military and security point of view, who was the first to
15 infringe upon the agreement between you and the Muslim people in
17 A. The Muslims or rather their leadership.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have P6773 in
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you assist me, do we have a
21 text of such an agreement?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately no.
23 I tried together with the witness to try to find this agreement, however
24 we didn't manage to.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
1 MR. TRALDI: I think we may have a copy and I'm just going to
2 look around our system, but I believe we have a copy.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, first of all, you of course could have asked
5 Mr. Traldi to provide it to you; but second, if you say who was the first
6 to infringe upon the agreement, any answer to that question, of course,
7 depends on what was agreed. And if the Chamber has no copy of the
8 agreement, then of course the answer lacks quite a bit of probative
10 Meanwhile, proceed, and Mr. Traldi will try to find it, I take
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I hope that this
13 will be helpful to us and how.
14 Q. Please take a look at this document in front of you. This is a
15 document that you had the opportunity of seeing today when the Prosecutor
16 was cross-examining. In the third paragraph, the last sentence, because
17 the war conflict broke out --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Yes, we are now on the second page in
19 the English language as well. Please proceed.
20 No loud speaking, Mr. Mladic.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. The last sentence in the third paragraph says because the war
24 conflict broke out, the Serb assembly of the municipality of Rogatica
25 passed a decision to the effect that the entire territory of the
1 municipality of Rogatica would be declared a Serb municipality. At that
2 moment, when did you as the executive organ believe that war conflict
3 broke out in the municipality of Rogatica?
4 A. I think the war conflict broke out on St. George's day, 1992.
5 Q. And I will end my questioning on this document. What is the date
6 of St. George's day, according to the orthodox Christian calendar?
7 A. It is the 6th of May.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look together at a
10 document that we have seen before, 65 ter 31352. 31352, page 6 of this
12 I'm sorry, page 3 of this statement in English, third paragraph
13 from the top. And in B/C/S, it would be page 4. Page 5, the third
14 paragraph from the top in English.
15 Q. Before I ask you a question about this paragraph --
16 A. Mehmed Agic was the commander of the Territorial Defence in
17 Rogatica before the war, a reserve officer, and I would say that he was a
18 renowned military expert.
19 Q. In this statement that was quoted to you a moment ago regarding
20 the malt factory, in this paragraph, and my colleague tells me it was
21 recorded a little differently, I am showing the third paragraph from the
22 bottom, not the top, he says:
23 "In March 1992, a large number of inhabitants of Rogatica, driven
24 by feelings of fear, insecurity, and uncertainty about further
25 developments moved out of the town and found shelter in Central Bosnia,
1 Gorazde, Zepa, and the wider Vragolovo area."
2 Do you see that?
3 JUDGE ORIE: You've read a portion of this document.
4 Mr. Traldi is on his feet.
5 Mr. Traldi.
6 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. It's very different than the
7 portion of the document I read. I'm not sure how it arises from my
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's one issue I'd like you to respond to,
10 Mr. Stojanovic.
11 The second one is you said:
12 "... in this paragraph, and my colleague tells me it was recorded
13 a little differently..."
14 Now, it's unclear to me what recording you are referring to and
15 what is recorded differently, because without such an explanation we
16 would have problems in understanding your reference to this inaccuracy.
17 So first, does it arise from the cross-examination, and could you
18 tell us in what respect?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So, the answer to the first
20 question, I was told that the record shows I was dealing with the third
21 paragraph from the top whereas I meant the third paragraph from the
22 bottom. And now I believe it is correctly recorded.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That having now been verified.
24 Next question is: How does this arise from cross-examination?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe you had
1 occasion to see a number of questions asked by Mr. Traldi in his
2 cross-examination that related to the time when the population departed
3 from Rogatica. And this paragraph speaks precisely to that, the time
4 when people departed from Rogatica and the reasons for their departure.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You may put the question to the witness.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I
7 would like to consult my client for a moment.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
9 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Sir, Mr. Sokolovic, my question is: Is it the case and would you
12 tell the Court, to the best of your recollection, at which point in time
13 did the Muslim population leave Rogatica?
14 A. I'll try. They left in two batches to Zepa which became more
15 numerous. This part in April, buses and cars to Sarajevo of their own
16 free will, and eventually, in the end, people were led towards the south,
17 led by the president of the municipality and his associates, and to the
18 west, led by this Mehmed Agic. They crossed over to Praca river,
19 followed the canyon to Ustipraca, and all together they went to Gorazde.
20 Q. Thank you. Did all that happen before the first fighting, before
21 the first armed conflicts in Rogatica?
22 A. No. The first part was in the spring in normal circumstances,
23 and after the armed conflicts and killings, even the killings of Serbs in
24 the part of Rogatica controlled by Muslims, these two columns followed,
25 one to the south, and one to the west. And that is when Rogatica
1 remained with very few inhabitants in the area of the town and thus the
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, first of all you started your next
4 question before the interpretation had been finished. I'm still trying
5 to fully understand the testimony.
6 The first part was in the spring. Is that your reference to what
7 you said the first batch in April?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Would you please tell the Court, to the best of your
12 recollection, what did this complex called the Sladara consist of? Could
13 you enumerate all its parts?
14 A. Most of all there were production capacities, a silo of barley,
15 some garages, some workshops, and that was the largest part. And the
16 smaller part was the administration building which held offices, a
17 canteen, some small warehouses, and that office space was used by the
18 municipal organs of Rogatica, and there was also a depot in this part of
19 the building of the Red Cross.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I see the clock, Your Honours.
22 I don't think I need more than ten minutes. Perhaps this is a good time
23 for the break.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Unless you would like to finish in those ten minutes
25 and then take the break slightly later, but if you prefer to take the
1 break now, then it's okay as far as I'm concerned.
2 I have, however, one other question for you.
3 You said that Mr. Agic was exchanged. Do you have any knowledge
4 about these exchanges, because in your statement we find information
5 about people voluntarily leaving. But do you have any knowledge about
6 these exchanges?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't. But I have to say I
8 heard about Mr. Agic later.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Fine. Then if you have no knowledge, that's
10 an answer to my question.
11 We'll take a break after the witness has left the courtroom.
12 Mr. Traldi, could you give us an indication as to how much time
13 you would need anticipating on what could happen in ten minutes?
14 MR. TRALDI: I know a lot can happen in ten minutes,
15 Mr. President. Right now, a minute or two, very little.
16 What I'd risen for was to refer Mr. Stojanovic to Exhibit P3026.
17 Now, that's what I'd had in mind when he -- when we were
18 discussing the agreement. My understanding is it's a map that reflects
19 it rather than the text of the agreement itself. But that's what I'd had
20 had in mind and I wanted to refer him to it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which doesn't make it easy for us to find out
22 what exactly the probative value is of saying that one party violated the
23 agreement, infringed upon the agreement first, if it's only a map.
24 We take a break and we resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into
3 the courtroom.
4 Meanwhile, I raise one matter, Mr. Lukic. It is uncommon that
5 counsel who is not examining the witness intervenes and objects during
6 the examination. I'm not going to make a formal point out of that but it
7 surprised me somewhat. Again, I'm not going to make any formal point.
8 And I'm still waiting for your references to, and let's be very
9 precise on that, on not intervening during the Prosecution's case when a
10 witness had shown a clear misunderstanding of what his role was.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Because testimony of witnesses being contradicted by
13 documentary evidence, that happens almost every day and that is, in my
14 view, part, a normal part of cross-examination, but I specifically
15 responded at that point in time to an expression of the witness who
16 clearly demonstrated not to understand what his role was.
17 And I'm looking forward to see whether I used any double
18 standards, and I will seriously look into any reference you'll give me.
19 Even if it's 500, I'll read them all.
20 I take it that I can expect it within a week or something like
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court,
25 Your Honours, P3193 again. Sorry, 3913. 3913. Sorry, it was my
2 Could we look at page 6, paragraph 8 in both versions.
3 Q. Mr. Sokolovic, that's the report on which Mr. Traldi asked you a
4 couple of things. I would just like to direct your attention to the last
5 paragraph on this page. And then at some point, we have to move to the
6 next page in both versions. It reads:
7 "The process of complete transformation was accompanied by many
8 difficulties so that the transformation is not complete yet. In the
9 territory of Rogatica municipality, instead of units of the
10 Territorial Defence, it is the Rogatica Brigade of the Army of Republika
11 Srpska of Bosnia-Herzegovina is active and it is part of the
12 Sarajevo Romanija Corps."
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you direct us in the English where you are
14 reading. We saw a paragraph at the beginning but then the interpretation
15 differed from what's on the page.
16 THE INTERPRETER: If the interpreter may be of assistance, it's
17 the top of the English page. Only the word "order" is different.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 And the interpreters are thanked.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Now, the last sentence.
22 "The Crisis Staff is not authorised to underline the activities
23 and actions of the Territorial Defence units, later the army of
24 Rogatica Brigade, its successes and failures and other military issues in
25 its report."
1 In this period when you were active as the Executive Board and
2 the Crisis Staff from April to June of 1992, why did you emphasise that
3 it is not within your competence to stress it in your reports?
4 A. We cared to say that because people were not sufficiently aware
5 of various jurisdictions and there were frequent misunderstandings as to
6 who is supposed to do what. And that's why we always emphasised that
7 everybody had their own missions and assignments to take care of, whereas
8 other people were in charge of other things. People had various
9 versions, you could hear all sorts of talk but that didn't matter. What
10 mattered were the real competencies, purviews, and jurisdictions.
11 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to conclude one topic relating to
12 P6774. This is a document you've seen before. It was shown to you by
13 the Prosecution earlier today. The Prosecutor asked you if you had seen
14 this document before, and I want to ask you about something that is
15 mentioned in the document. Did you know, and if so how did you know,
16 that there were problems between Muslims who had declared themselves
17 willing to remain in Rogatica and those Muslims who had decided to leave?
18 A. I don't have any documents to rely on, but it was my feeling that
19 there were serious differences between one number of people, mainly old
20 timers, natives of Rogatica, and some others who did not set it as their
21 objective to stay in Rogatica.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently you're asking about frictions between the
24 various groups of Muslims. I do not see how this arises from
25 cross-examination because I don't think that it has been touched upon in
1 any way by Mr. Traldi.
2 But you have put the question to the witness, the witness has
3 answered it. Any further questions or was it --
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, thank you. I
5 am concluding my redirect examination. Thank you for your understanding.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
7 Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Sokolovic, I really want to get some clarity.
10 I know you've given a large amount of evidence according -- relating to
11 your tenure as president of the Executive Committee or the assembly of
12 the municipality. If you look at paragraph 2 of your statement, please,
13 it says:
14 "In the early 1990s, I was a deputy in the Rogatica municipal
15 assembly. I also served as the president of the Rogatica municipal
16 assembly in two, one-year terms, specifically 1983 and 1985. At the end
17 of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, I served as a deputy in the Rogatica
18 municipal assembly. I performed this duty from 1978 to 2008."
19 Do you remember that paragraph?
20 A. I do, and it's the truth.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, what I would like to understand is -- because
22 later in your evidence, you then said you served as a president from 1983
23 to 1985. You said this at yesterday's temporary transcript page 77,
24 lines 9 to 10.
25 Now, when you say 1983 to 1985, it's different from saying two
1 one-year terms in 1983 and 1985. If you could clear us on that point
3 A. I'll explain that very easily. I was talking about two one-year
4 terms, one began in spring 1983, and the other began in the spring of
5 1984 and lasted until 1985. So these were the two one-year terms.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, again on this paragraph as I said you said,
7 in the early 1990s, I was deputy of the Rogatica municipal assembly, and
8 you say at the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992 you served as the
9 deputy in the Rogatica municipal ... and because I think for purposes of
10 this case it is the period 1992 that is relevant, I just want to be sure
11 in that period when were you deputy and when were you president in the
12 period 1991 and 1992?
13 A. You see I was a deputy in 1991 and 1992, continuously. I was an
14 MP in the municipal parliament. As for the function of vice-president, I
15 don't know if it was recorded that I was also vice-president. I was a
16 regular deputy even before but from 1990, in 1991, and 1992, I was also
17 vice-president. I was vice-president of the assembly in earlier terms of
18 office and again after the war.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you make a distinction between deputy and vice?
20 Are those two different positions?
21 A. Certainly vice-president is an official, whereas a deputy to the
22 parliament is just a member of parliament.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you say "deputy" just you mean being a member
24 of the assembly?
25 A. Correct, yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I must say I'm still puzzled by the whole of it.
3 Could we have your statement on the screen so that you can follow in
4 B/C/S the text of your statement. But I don't know the number by heart.
5 The statement has received number.
6 MR. TRALDI: D652, I think, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D652. Could we focus on paragraph 2.
8 I go with you through every sentence of this paragraph. You
9 started saying:
10 "In the early 1990s, I was a deputy in the Rogatica Municipal
12 The next line reads:
13 "I also served as the president of the Rogatica municipal
14 assembly in two one-year terms, specifically in 1983 and 1985."
15 You explained what that meant, that is, that you served as
16 president from spring 1983 and then until 1984 and then from 1984 to
18 I have some difficulties in understanding that where you say in
19 the early 1990s you were a deputy, that you say you were a president in
20 1983 and 1984 which are not, in my view, the 1990s. Are you talking
21 about the same Rogatica Municipal Assembly here? When you are talking
22 about the early 1990s, which Rogatica Municipal Assembly are you talking
23 about? Is that the multi-ethnic elected municipal assembly or is it a
24 different one?
25 A. Precisely that one, the one that was elected at the first
1 multi-parties elections in 1990.
2 JUDGE ORIE: When you say you were a president of the
3 Rogatica Municipal Assembly in two one-year terms, 1983, 1985, was that
4 the same assembly?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, you served already on that assembly
7 not only in the early 1990s but even before that in the 1980s.
8 A. From 1978 all the way up to 2008.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So this is totally confusing language. I
10 don't know who took this statement but -- so I have to understand that
11 from the late 1970s, you were a deputy in the Rogatica Municipal Assembly
12 where you served as a president in two one-year terms in 1983 and 1984
13 ending in 1985.
14 Now, the next line reads:
15 "At the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, I served as a
16 deputy in the Rogatica Municipal Assembly."
17 Which assembly are you referring to there? To the same assembly
18 or to the Serb assembly?
19 A. No, no, the same one. The same assembly. You see, the war came,
20 relations were disrupted, but the term of office went on from 1991 and
21 then 1992, and all the way up until the end of the war there weren't any
22 elections. The elections were held only in 1996.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand your answer. However, the end of
24 1991 happens to be exactly the time when the Serb Municipal Assembly was
25 established at the instructions of the SDS Main Board, isn't it?
1 A. Yes, but for a while this regular assembly operated along
2 parallel lines as well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And the beginning of 1992 was exactly that period in
4 time where, as you said, it functioned parallel with the multi-ethnic
5 elected assembly.
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, everyone who is familiar with the
8 evidence in this case would easily understand a reference to the end of
9 1991 and the beginning of 1992 as a reference rather to the Serb assembly
10 rather than the multi-ethnic elected assembly.
11 A. If necessary, I am prepared to clarify this further, but the
12 essence is the following: the Serb municipal assembly started working a
13 bit more seriously only in the spring but along parallel lines. All the
14 time the elected assembly functioned and --
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason. Since you do not say anything
16 explicitly about the Serb municipal assembly, it gives the impression
17 that this is a kind of a puzzle or a hidden reference to an assembly
18 functioning at the same time without saying this clearly. Otherwise, I'm
19 totally missing any understanding for how this paragraph was drafted in
20 the statement. I don't know who took this statement. At least I leave
21 that alone. But it's clear to me now where everything suggests that you
22 are not very transparent on the Serb municipal assembly, to say the
23 least, that paragraph 2 may look as if it hints at the existence and your
24 participation in such a Serb assembly in Rogatica.
25 Do you have any comment on what I just said?
1 A. Well, briefly. I'm sorry if there's anything that's unclear
2 there, but again I wish to recall the following: In this paragraph, I
3 only speak about the regular assembly, that is to say, the one elected at
4 the multi-national elections. It was elected in 1990 and it went on
5 until 1996. That's when the elections were held.
6 In the meantime, the Serb municipality of Rogatica was
7 constituted and automatically, I became a member of that assembly as
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you have explained that. I have understood
11 At the same time for the taking of a statement, and I'm now
12 addressing the Defence, this confusion is -- could be expected if the
13 statement is phrased in the way it did.
14 I leave it to that. Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?
15 MR. TRALDI: Just about three, Your Honour, although
16 Judge Moloto, did you have a question first?
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just one.
18 Just to be clear, this last sentence where you say:
19 "I performed this duty from 1978 to 2008."
20 Are we to understand that for all that period, 1978 to 2008, you
21 were a member of the Rogatica Municipal Assembly?
22 A. That's right. That's right.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which means at the beginning of the paragraph when
24 you say in the early 1990s I was a member of the Rogatica municipality,
25 that's half the truth because the truth is that you were a member from
1 1978 to 2008. So that first sentence is redundant and unnecessary. Do I
2 understand you correctly?
3 A. Well, it may be that way as well, but believe me this is the
4 truth, that I was a member of the municipal assembly for 30 years without
5 any interruptions.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. That makes it quite clearer, much
7 clearer. Because now the first sentence seems to suggest that that was
8 the only time in addition to the 1992 one. Okay. Thank you so much.
9 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
11 Q. Sir, in response to the Judge's questions you said you were the
12 vice-president of the assembly, was that the elected assembly or the Serb
14 A. The regularly-elected assembly but serving several terms, you
15 see. It's always this lawful municipal assembly from 1978 until 2008.
16 Q. Just to make sure I understood your answer to the Judges'
17 questions properly, I understood you to be saying that at some point
18 between 1991 and 1995 you'd also held the position of vice-president of
19 one of the assemblies; is that correct?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Moving to a different topic. Sir, Mr. Stojanovic asked you about
22 the timing of people leaving Rogatica. You said some of those who left
23 Rogatica in 1992 went to Zepa; right? And before that?
24 After Zepa fell in 1995, there were almost no Muslims left in
25 Rogatica municipality at all; right?
1 A. Yes, but they left Zepa along a different route. You know how
2 they left.
3 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has no further questions either -- yes,
5 one question.
6 Further questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to be clear. Is it your evidence that at no
8 stage in your life have you ever been a member of the Serb assembly of
9 the Rogatica municipality? In other words, the one that's not elected?
10 A. We have to explain that. I was a member of the regular assembly
11 all the time, and according to the decision of the Serb municipality of
12 Rogatica, all members of the assembly who were ethnic Serbs from the
13 regular assembly became members of the Serb municipal assembly of
14 Rogatica. That is the autumn of 1991.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There being no further questions, Mr. Sokolovic, I'd
17 like to thank you for coming a long way to The Hague and for having
18 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
19 Bench and I wish you a safe return home again.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I would like to
21 thank you for having treated me so fairly.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'll ask to be excused as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You are excused.
1 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The -- may I take it that the next witness the
3 Defence intends to call is -- let me just have a look, is Mr. Sarenac.
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, that's right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The usher has left the courtroom as well. I take
6 the time to previously address P6680 and immediately after we've done
7 that we can start the examination of the next witness.
8 During the testimony of Milutin Vujicic on the 17th of July of
9 this year, P6680, the Foca gazette No. 1, was marked for identification
10 after the Prosecution indicated that the parties would discuss a possible
11 agreement on only whether certain portions of P6680 should be tendered.
12 On the 25th of August, the Prosecution informed the Chamber through an
13 informal communication that the parties had agreed to tender the entire
15 On the 26th of August, the Chamber, noting that the document is
16 74 pages long, informed the parties that it was not inclined to admit it
17 in its entirety and gave the parties one week to file submissions
18 explaining why they deem it necessary to admit the document in it's
19 entirety rather than the portions that were discussed with the witness.
20 This can be found at transcript pages 24766 to 24767.
21 Mr. Usher you can already escort the witness into the courtroom
22 while I'm -- continue reading.
23 On the 1st of September, the Prosecution filed its written
24 submissions. The Prosecution submits that the document should be
25 admitted in it's entirety because it is important to understand the
1 events and the political structure in Foca municipality during the
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Alternatively, the Prosecution submits that the
5 Chamber should admit those pages of the document that were discussed with
6 the witness in court. The Defence did not make any submissions.
7 Mr. Sarenac, could I invite you to be seated for a little while.
8 I will continue to read and once I finished, I will address you as a
10 The Chamber recalls that each party is responsible for presenting
11 its case in a clear and comprehensible manner and therefore underlines
12 the importance of the parties' assistance in placing documentary
13 evidence, especially large exhibits, in the context of the indictment.
14 This is best done when the exhibit is used with the witness in court.
15 Lacking this contextualisation, the Chamber may not fully appreciate the
16 reason a party relies on a document.
17 With regard to P6680, the Chamber notes that the witness, when
18 confronted with the decision to establish the assembly of the Serbian
19 people in Foca municipality, was able to provide information on the
20 meaning of certain parts of it. When confronted with the Statute of the
21 Serbian municipality of Foca, the witness confirmed that he knew that
22 such a Statute had been adopted. Therefore, the Chamber finds that these
23 two portions were sufficiently contextualised by the witness.
24 The Trial Chamber is not convinced, however, that the remaining
25 portions of P6680 without any contextualisation assist the Chamber. In
1 its submission of the 1st of September, the Prosecution merely submitted
2 that Foca is an important municipality and that P6680 provides important
3 background to understand the events in Foca. The Chamber considers that
4 such a lax standard would be conducive to a flooding of the Chamber with
5 documentary evidence, which it has consistently tried to avoid.
6 Therefore, the Chamber admits pages 1 to 4 and 12 to 31 of the English
7 translation -- 32, I misread, 12 to 32 of the English translation of
8 P6680, as well as the corresponding pages in the original into evidence,
9 and denies admission of the remaining pages without prejudice.
10 The Prosecution is instructed to upload a new version of P6680
11 reflecting the Chamber's decision and the Registry is already hereby
12 instructed to make the necessary replacement thereafter.
13 This concludes the Chamber's decision on the admission of P6680.
14 Mr. Sarenac, apologies for being so impolite as not addressing
15 you when you entered the courtroom.
16 Before you give evidence, you are invited to make a solemn
17 declaration. The text of which is now handed out to you. May I invite
18 you to do so.
19 WITNESS: DESIMIR SARENAC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
24 Mr. Sarenac, you will first be examined by Mr. Lukic -- I take
25 it, Mr. Lukic? Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic and you will find him
1 to your left.
2 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Sarenac.
6 A. Good day.
7 MR. LUKIC: I would just ask for the help from the usher. I have
8 to distribute something first so we can continue in a speedy manner. I
9 would just hand the clean copy of Mr. Sarenac statement to him, just for
10 the Prosecution first to check, and I have some documents to be given to
11 the Judges, Prosecution, and the witness.
12 I will draw Your Honours' attention when we have to look at a
13 document I just distributed separate from the statement.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarenac --
15 MR. LUKIC: And, yes, can we have on our screens, 1D01742, that's
16 the statement of this witness.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarenac, you have before you the paper
18 version and on the screen, you see the first page of the document?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's Milorad Sokolovic.
21 MR. LUKIC: I can see that. Yeah. That's the number I have.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. [Interpretation] So let us restart. Mr. Sarenac, have you ever
24 given a statement to the members of General Mladic's Defence team?
25 A. Yes, I gave a statement.
1 Q. Is that the statement that you have before you now?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what you see on the screen, is that the first page of that
5 A. Yes, that's the statement.
6 Q. Did you sign this statement?
7 A. Yes, this is my signature.
8 Q. Let's take a look at the last page now. Do you see a signature
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recognise it?
12 A. Yes, that is my signature and the date is the 27th of July, 2014.
13 Q. Does this statement contain what you said to the members of the
14 Defence team of General Mladic?
15 A. Yes, that's the statement.
16 Q. The information contained in this statement, is it correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
19 basically answer them the same way?
20 A. I would certainly answer them the same way.
21 MR. LUKIC: Usually I miss some of the questions on the
22 introduction, but we do not Judge Fluegge today with us so I took care
23 that everything is covered. So I think that I covered everything.
24 JUDGE ORIE: He'll be glad that you took over part of his
1 MR. LUKIC: So I would tender this --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: The last one was -- okay. No, you covered it.
3 MR. LUKIC: Do you want to take over?
4 I would like to tender this statement into evidence,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar -- but perhaps first, Mr. Weber.
7 MR. WEBER: Provided it's the same one that was filed, the
8 Prosecution has no objections. Although if there's any problem, I'd
9 just -- I'm noticing some font differences with the one here so -- I'll
10 just check that. But provided it's the same, no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it is the same.
12 MR. LUKIC: It is the same.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then Mr. Weber will have a hard job to find
14 any differences.
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter number 1D1742 will be D653.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D653 is admitted.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I would read a statement summary and
19 then have just couple of questions for this witness, with your leave.
20 Thank you.
21 Desimir Sarenac was chief of security in the 1st Sarajevo
23 He will testify about the positions held by his unit, his
24 operational position, and its strength. He will also testify about
25 positions held by opposing units of the 1st Corps of the Army of B and H
1 and its strength.
2 He will testify that the SRK was mainly engaged in defensive
3 actions. Also, he will testify that the SRK had no intention to cause
4 casualties, civilian casualties during combat or terrorise the civilians
5 under the control of Muslim authorities.
6 Furthermore, he will testify that he had some information that
7 civilian facilities were being misused for military purposes by the
8 1st Corps of the ABiH. Desimir Sarenac will testify about the security
9 situation in and around the area of responsibility of the
10 1st Sarajevo Brigade. He will testify about the discipline in his
11 brigade. Also, he will testify about paramilitaries in the zone of
12 responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.
13 He will testify on overall situation in Sarajevo, before and
14 after conflict emerged.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
16 JUDGE ORIE: No speaking at such volume that it disturbs the
17 order in the courtroom.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 He will testify as to situation in Sarajevo during withdrawal of
21 JNA, leaving of its members, and grave situation in Sarajevo. He will
22 explain zone of responsibility of his units, its composition,
23 organisation, and functioning in relevant period.
24 Witness will testify as to the illegal arming of Croats and
25 Muslims and organising of paramilitary units in Sarajevo, as from the
1 beginning of the conflict.
2 He will testify that his unit performed no offensive activity,
3 and that it was focused to preserve its lines during the period of
4 conflict. He will testify as to positions of enemy units in, and around
5 Sarajevo, and information obtained through operative work.
6 He will testify as to position of superior command of SRK towards
7 use of artillery in the city, and on the other side on Army of B and H
8 strategy of opening fire from civilian zones, schools, and hospitals,
9 towards position of SRK units, or even attacking civilian zones on their
10 own territory for blaming the Serb side. He will explain ABiH
11 positioning in and around the city during the period of conflict. He
12 will also testify as to using snipers from Army of B and H side and its
13 consequences towards civilians.
14 Witness will explain that civilians could not leave Sarajevo
15 during conflict on their own will and without security threats.
16 That would be his statement summary, and I will just have several
17 questions for this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please put them to the witness.
19 MR. LUKIC:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarenac, now I'm going to ask you something.
21 The Prosecution objected to two exhibits that we tendered as associated
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up 1D4398
24 in e-court.
25 [In English] If we can have only B/C/S version because it's the
1 map, and we have English translation in front of us in paper distributed
2 for everybody.
3 If we can enlarge the middle part of this map, please.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sarenac, there is a key to this map and you
5 have it before you. What did you show on this map?
6 A. I marked the positions of Muslim armed formations as juxtaposed
7 to my brigade, the deployment of firing assets, and the places where
8 ammunition and weapons were manufactured. I also marked the command
9 posts of their units for a certain period considering that the positions
10 of units changed over time.
11 Q. What period do your markings relate to?
12 A. Essentially it's all the same. What varies is the numerical
13 strength of units, but the strength of the enemy side only increased with
14 time. According to the documents that I had at my disposal when I made
15 this map, and that is 18 months ago, and based on my memory, I made an
16 oversight in relation to Dobrinja. My markings venture inside the area
17 held by the enemy side. Our positions were closer to Lukavica, that's
18 something that I can correct now.
19 Q. This key to the map, does it correspond to the signs you made on
20 the map?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. Are your markings precise or off?
23 A. Of course they are not precise. This is just a graphic display
24 and on a city map, on a street plan, you cannot identify all the streets
25 and all the buildings. I only tried to show where we were and where they
1 were without being able to be precise. But as far as the number of units
2 and the strength is concerned, I did not include the number of units or
3 the number of ammunition producing facilities. It's not even possible to
4 show this on this map and you cannot show it in a proper size.
5 Q. You made this map during the Karadzic trial; correct?
6 A. It was on the 5th of March, 2013, based on the documents that I
7 had at my disposal.
8 Q. Did you draw all the positions indicated in the documents you
9 had, or can we find more in the documents than on the map?
10 A. As for the forward line, the answer is yes, that's how the
11 forward line really lay with the exception of Dobrinja where I made a
12 mistake. For the rest, I did not have the means to show it all
13 precisely. But basically, that's a fair representation.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this map with attached legend into
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, Mr. Lukic, if you look at page
18 2 of the legend, last two items are not translated into English. Can we
19 be told what they are?
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes. I'm sorry because -- I was translating this
21 from English so that's why I didn't see that there are only some B/C/S.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: You can translate it back to English then.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Sarenac, turn to page 2 and you will see at the bottom there
25 are two notes, OBL and VP in B/C/S. Can you read them for us?
1 A. OBL unit for the protection of installations and units.
2 Q. And the second one?
3 A. Military police.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
5 MR. WEBER: I believe that right now we're at the point where
6 Mr. Lukic is tendering the map. Mr. Lukic addressed our concerns so the
7 Prosecution does not have an objection to it. However, we've looked at
8 many maps with many symbols and now we have one with symbols again in
9 them. I appreciate the fact that there's a legend for what this witness
10 understands these symbols to be. However, I believe at this point it
11 would be of great assistance to the Chamber to have 65 ter 30651, which
12 is the JNA instructions on maps in the armed forces, before it so -- as a
13 reference material. It contains the various symbols that are used by the
14 armed forces, and I just throw that out to the Chamber right now, not
15 necessarily looking for a decision, but I believe that this could be of
16 aid to the Chamber if the Defence could also assist in reviewing that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And of course we do not know whether it
18 corresponds fully with the legend the witness has given, but if the
19 parties would sit together and see whether there's any dispute about that
20 and then to tender it by one party or by another party in the context of
21 this testimony.
22 Before we decide on admission, I would have one question,
23 Mr. Sarenac.
24 I see more or less the front lines and you corrected them as far
25 as Dobrinja is concerned. That's all fine. But I see that there is a
1 kind of a line going into north-westerly direction, or if you start at
2 the other side, the south-easterly direction, between Novi Grad and
3 Alipasino Polje. You see that? Where it just moves away from what seems
4 to be the separation lines. Could you explain to us how this almost like
5 a pin, line a needle into the area of -- ending in Alipasino Polje, what
6 that stands for exactly? It's a double line, by the way, and it's an
7 interrupted line, a double interrupted line. I should be more precise.
8 MR. WEBER: Judge, I'm not sure it's before the witness on the
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the boundary between the
11 5th Motorised Brigade and the --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the second unit?
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could the witness repeat the second unit, please?
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's the demarcation between you said the
15 5th Motorised Brigade and what was the other unit you mentioned?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the 101st Motorised Brigade.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we also have to understand, for example,
18 that where we find the similar line ending up in Otoka, that that also
19 indicates the separation between units, and may I then take it Army ABiH
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then finally, you explained to us what
23 OBL stands for and what VP stands for. Could you point at anywhere where
24 there is a military police station, so where we find a VP? I may have
25 even found one. I see one. I withdraw that question. I see that there
1 are some of them.
2 No further objections.
3 Then, Mr. Registrar, the map --
4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 1D4398 will be
5 Exhibit D654.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D654 is admitted into evidence.
7 The legend to the map, Mr. Lukic, has it been uploaded into
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under what number? Because it seems -- or is
11 it attached to the map?
12 MR. LUKIC: It's attached to the map.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's attached to the map.
14 MR. LUKIC: Only is it -- it serves as an English version of the
15 map. That was how it was done in Karadzic case as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. LUKIC: Only now we have this --
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
19 MR. LUKIC: -- B/C/S translation.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No problems. So the legend -- so I have admitted
21 the legend already into evidence without knowing it. Yes.
22 Yes, now, if you say it is attached, and you said to the English
23 version -- it's the English version.
24 MR. LUKIC: It's the English version, yeah, of the B/C/S map.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'd just check. Yes, I understand. So as a matter
1 of fact, we have here a document on which the English version is just the
2 legend and the original B/C/S version is just the map as marked by the
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's clear to me.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: It's a break time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It indeed is break time. We'll take a break and
9 we'll resume at ten minutes to 2.00 but not until after the witness has
10 left the courtroom.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 1.50 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
15 the courtroom.
16 MR. WEBER: Judge, maybe I could just make use of the time with
17 some housekeeping matters related to the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you look behind --
19 MR. WEBER: Okay.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Weber --
21 MR. WEBER: Thanks.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- you can see that you should have started earlier.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 We don't need this map in e-court, but I would like to have
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, with respect to this exhibit, but it
5 also, I believe, applies to 21 exhibits related to the witness, and this
6 is just a technical matter first, the Prosecution's records indicate that
7 it's not a part of the Defence 65 ter exhibit list, so if just for
8 formality's sake if we could have a request to add this exhibit to the
9 exhibit list. Then I do have an objection to the use of the document
10 after that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
12 MR. LUKIC: Well, then we would formally ask for these exhibits
13 to be added.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's decide on them together. Let's not
15 lose too much time on formalities.
16 But before we do so, Mr. Lukic, you said we don't need this map
17 in e-court, but I take it that if you don't want to have it in e-court,
18 how would you like to have it -- on our screen.
19 MR. LUKIC: I thought I -- no, no. I needed a different document
20 on our screen. That's why I said we don't need this one anymore.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you mean the map we had looked at before.
22 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that wasn't clear to me.
24 Yes. Then the document announced now --
25 MR. LUKIC: I asked for 1D03018.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which is requested to be added to your 65 ter
2 list and that's -- then we would like to hear from Mr. Weber what the
3 objections are.
4 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution would object to the use of this
5 document with this specific witness. It's described to us as a list of
6 patients in the Kasindol hospital. Our objection relates to the fact
7 that as far as we're aware this individual has no medical knowledge or
8 expertise and we have some concern about the Chamber receiving medically
9 related evidence not coming through a qualified individual or expert in
10 demographics or otherwise, so I'd also note that the Karadzic Defence
11 elected not to use this document with this witness in the past
13 So we have concern about our ability to even be able to
14 cross-examine a witness who probably does not have the necessary basis of
15 knowledge or expertise to be able to sufficiently comment on a lot of the
16 information, and we believe it should not be used properly with this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: I think it's just fair to let us ask several
20 questions and then decide whether this witness knows anything about the
22 JUDGE ORIE: The objection, what the objection was about, the
23 objection was about the use.
24 But, Mr. Weber, I see your point that you say it -- the list
25 apparently is based on who are the most serious ones. Now, that's one
1 issue. But of course there were other elements in it as well; that is,
2 were these people, apart from whether they are the most serious ones,
3 were they treated in Kasindol hospital, and you don't need medical expert
4 knowledge for that. If you know those persons, if you see them going
5 into the hospital and you accompany them. I do not know -- I've got no
6 idea what kind of knowledge this witness has, but your objection is not
7 solid for all circumstances so therefore I will allow Mr. Lukic to ask
8 questions, but as soon as of course it comes down to expert testimony,
9 then it's a different matter.
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, and right now we have no notice of the
11 fact that this witness has any involvement with the Kasindol hospital so
12 that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Neither do we. So that is for Mr. Lukic to explore.
14 Mr. Lukic, you use the document. We'll later decide on whether
15 or not --
16 MR. LUKIC: I promise that I will not try to elicit any expert
17 opinions from this witness on this document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Please proceed.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. [Interpretation] Let us look at the document. On page 1 we read
21 "Seriously injured civilians, 1992, 1995 undergoing treatment at Kasindol
23 Let me ask you, was it usual, was it customary that civilians who
24 lived in the zone of replenishment of your unit be sent for treatment at
25 the Kasindol hospital?
1 A. Of course. It was normal. The hospital treated both uniformed
2 personnel and civilians.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
4 MR. WEBER: The witness has answered the question by just asking
5 a future question, so if Counsel could please be mindful of leading the
7 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, and then for me, just to see. One second
10 Yes, please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Apart from civilians, was anyone else from the
13 zone of your replenishment treated at this hospital?
14 A. As for me personally, on the 13th of June, 1993, I was wounded in
15 combat at Mojmilo and the soldier next to me was killed. Since my injury
16 was not so serious, it was in the left upper arm, I didn't go the same
17 day. I went to the Kasindol hospital a day or two later where
18 Dr. Srdjan Mijatovic took out the fragmented bullet casing out of my arm,
19 and on that occasion I saw other wounded people there.
20 As for sniping, that zone was very exposed and one of the
21 incidents I remember most vividly is the death of one old man who was hit
22 on the doorstep of his house.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there.
24 Mr. Lukic asked you apart from civilians was anyone else from the
25 zone of your replenishment treated at this hospital.
1 Now, Mr. Lukic, the witness goes in all kind of directions.
2 Either you guide him in that direction or stop him by giving rather --
3 statements without any context as to when, where, who, et cetera.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: And in fact, Mr. Lukic, by the time you asked that
7 question, the witness had already told us before that of course it was
8 normal. The hospital treated both uniformed personnel and civilians. So
9 the question was clearly redundant.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then else -- apparently you wanted to ask
11 him anyone else than you yourself. That was not part of the question.
12 It took me two or three lines to understand what the question was about.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Do you know if the Kasindol hospital treated
16 wounded people regardless of ethnicity and do you have any firsthand
18 A. I know that. This Dr. Srdjan Mijatovic who I already mentioned,
19 he had served as a doctor in our outpatient clinic before, before
20 transferring to the hospital. And at the time when I went to the
21 hospital for that shrapnel to be extracted, he told me that several
22 injured civilians had been brought in during the past days, especially
23 from Grbavica, Serb civilians and Muslims.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, is there any -- is it part of the
25 Prosecution's case that in this hospital, civilians were not treated or
1 that there was any distinction made on the basis of ethnicity?
2 MR. WEBER: We disagree with the context that the witness is
3 describing it in but not that there were civilians that were treated in
4 the hospital along with soldiers.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And of all ethnicities?
6 MR. WEBER: Well, the context of non-Serbs -- I will
7 cross-examine on this.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. If we can have page 2 of this document.
10 In English it's not translated so we'll have to use -- but those are only
11 names, but we'll read the whole line.
12 Q. [Interpretation] You mentioned a man by the name of Trapara who
13 was killed by a sniper shot. Did you know any of his relatives? Was
14 that person wounded, did you visit him in hospital, et cetera?
15 A. I knew Bosko Trapara personally. I knew his son and daughter and
16 his daughter also had a restaurant. I also knew two relatives of his who
17 had the same last name, Trapara. They were elderly women. It was Duda
18 or something like that, Dubravka, and the other one is Bosijlka [phoen]
19 and they were seriously injured by a sniper.
20 I used to know quite a few such cases but at this moment I cannot
21 remember all the names.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, microphone, please.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Please look at 28. Could you read out the entire line for us.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the witness
2 if he's not speaking directly into the microphone.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you please, if you're bowing
4 towards your screen, keep your mind that you should speak into the
5 microphone because the interpreters would not hear you.
6 Could you restart your answer?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Trapara Dusanka Dubravka, female,
8 born in 1921, Kasindol, Ilidza, wounded on the 4th of November, 1992 by a
10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did you see Mrs. Trapara anywhere after she was wounded?
12 A. Since I communicated with Bosko's son Drago, and that was close
13 to my barracks and close to the place where I was staying, so we used to
14 see each other there.
15 Q. Did you ever visit Mrs. Trapara in hospital?
16 A. Well, no, there wasn't really an opportunity for that kind of
17 thing. But as for Drago, we commented upon that, her health, et cetera.
18 Q. All right. When you were wounded, when you went to have that
19 shrapnel taken out, did you only talk to the doctor or did you talk to
20 any one of the patients there?
21 A. I mostly talked to the doctor only. When I saw that people were
22 coming to have their wounds treated and bandaged, I mean, that was the
23 context. And then there were these comments too by Dr. Mijatovic that
24 there are many persons who were hit by shrapnel, shells, et cetera, and
25 that they have a lot of work there.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this document
3 because we believe that the witness has sufficient knowledge about that
4 in terms of who was being treated in this hospital.
5 MR. WEBER: We would object to the foundation laid by the
6 witness. Actually his knowledge, I believe, is insufficient for it, and
7 even in part possibly incorrect with respect to the few people that the
8 witness has indicated that he did know of. He said according to his
9 information on page 80, lines 20 and 21, that they were seriously injured
10 by a sniper, and then a few lines later we see that one of these
11 individuals, according to this document, was -- the document indicates
12 was injured by a shell.
13 So this is quite different. I believe that without ability to
14 properly cross-examine the witness, a witness with actually direct
15 knowledge was who was treated at the hospital, it should not be allowed
16 with this witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber denies the objection. At least the
18 document gives in some respects an opportunity to verify the accuracy or
19 the inaccuracy, the credibility, reliability of the witness and in that
20 respect, the document will be admitted.
21 Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D655.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D655 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. WEBER: Judge, just on that, going back to our original
25 concern. We do have concern about relying on the other information that
1 the witness did not know or may not have personal knowledge of that is
2 part of the list without further evidence or proper testimony on it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The probative value of the document and the
4 information which allows us to further consider the reliability and the
5 credibility doesn't mean that the Chamber will blindly accept whatever is
6 there on the document on which the witness has not given any evidence, so
7 we'll use it in accordance with the way in which it was introduced.
8 MR. WEBER: And -- thank you. And if just before tomorrow, if
9 the Defence could actually inform the Prosecution where does this
10 document come from, it would be appreciated.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was not part of your objection so we have
12 not considered that when we decided to admit.
13 Yes, we still have to ask for a number and --
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before I -- before I admitted the document
16 into evidence, I should have decided on the addition to the 65 ter list,
17 but that's of course implicitly granted as well.
18 I would have one question for the witness.
19 Witness, this Kasindol hospital, was that the hospital where many
20 victims of sniper incident or shelling were treated?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's the only medical
22 institution that was capable of handling that in addition to the military
23 hospital. It was only Kasindol. Today it is a clinic. And absolutely,
24 people were treated there and that is where they were treated primarily.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you refer to the military hospital, which
1 one did you refer to?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military hospital that was in
3 Pale where military personnel who were seriously wounded were being
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But most of the civilian and sometimes
6 military patients who had been the victims of shelling and sniping were
7 treated in Kasindol. Is that correctly understood?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, especially when -- when there
9 were many wounded persons, so military personnel were treated there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would cover the area which is more or
11 less defined by the places where these people were injured, where we see
12 a lot of places familiar to us, Trnovo, Ilidza, all these areas, people
13 would be brought to the Kasindol hospital?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principle, yes, the Kasindol
15 hospital. And it depended on the situation at the moment in terms of
16 combat, whether they could get to Ilidza and whether they could be driven
17 directly to Pale and so on.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would that be true for victims from
19 Grbavica as well?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Grbavica did not have any
21 other medical institution except for Kasindol, so that was the only one
22 and the closest one.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge, I'm asking you, if you
24 don't have, of course we'll fully accept that, about the capacity of the
25 Kasindol hospital compared to the military hospital in Pale? Was it
1 three times as big or was it -- or did it receive ten times as much or
2 just half of the number of the patients that would be received by the
3 military hospital? Do you know anything about that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. The Kasindol hospital
5 is bigger than the military hospital in Pale but how many times bigger, I
6 don't know. It existed before the war as well.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. Mr. Lukic.
8 I'm looking at the clock.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we move on the clock, for my own
10 edification, Mr. Lukic, for what purpose is this document being tendered?
11 I'm trying to follow.
12 MR. LUKIC: That this witness is testifying about the civilian
13 victims in the area of replenishment of his unit. So among other things,
14 this is something that show us that the civilians were really injured by
15 military actions conducted by the opposing side.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If I could ask one additional question.
18 The document exclusively deals with civilian patients.
19 MR. LUKIC: This document only with civilian.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honour --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Weber.
23 MR. WEBER: -- kind of the last two questions kind of highlight
24 my concern. Without someone to cross-examine from the hospital, the last
25 two questions posed by Your Honours become quite difficult and it made
1 apparent in counsel's response the way in which the Defence wants to rely
2 on this document which we would object to.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you're revisiting a ruling which was made,
4 Mr. Weber, and we will wait for your cross-examination.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: My concern, Mr. Lukic, is that now the -- if
6 you're saying all these people were civilians, the witness has not gone
7 through the whole list to tell us that these were all civilians. But
8 should we just take his word for that? He doesn't tell us he knows each
9 and every one of these people and he knows that they were civilians.
10 MR. LUKIC: You are right, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It remains totally unclear, Mr. Lukic, but you're
12 certainly aware of that, that if I say I have a list of 100 people that
13 are civilians, what -- I mean it's not new to you the discussion about
14 what makes someone to a civilian and why could you make mistakes in that
15 respect. But I take it that you're fully aware of that and that's why I
16 said in response to Mr. Weber's objection that of course we'll use it in
17 a way -- and the witness apparently recognises, knows some of these
18 people. Okay, then this document certainly confirms that those persons
19 were treated in that hospital. That's of course of limited probative
20 value, but we'll certainly keep that in mind.
21 MR. LUKIC: We have to have some trust in the documents,
22 otherwise we have to say we do not trust the documents whatever they say.
23 If --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that is an extreme position taken, to have
25 matters which are usually contested, that is, who is a civilian who is
1 not, is it because he has a rifle, is it because he is dressed in a
2 certain way, is it because he receives a military pension that's a well
3 known area the dispute, and that of course is different, for example, for
4 the date of birth being noted in a hospital for a patient where there is
5 usually less concern of mistakes.
6 But we'll deal with that. We do understand Mr. Weber's concerns,
7 and we have pointed out to you also that the probative value of such a
8 document has -- certainly has its clear limitations. And if you say we
9 have to trust documents, then I might bring that to your attention now
10 and then as well, although I would not easily do that if there are good
11 reasons to say that the reliability of the document is not always for the
12 full hundred per cent.
13 MR. LUKIC: Of course. Even us object sometimes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Even you now and then challenge the --
15 MR. LUKIC: Of course.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not unknown to the Chamber.
17 We adjourn for the day. We will resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
18 24th of September, 2014, in this same courtroom, I, at 9.30 in the
20 But we'll adjourn only until after the witness has left the
22 You may follow the usher but I would like to instruct you that
23 you should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever way with
24 whomever about your testimony, whether testimony you gave today or still
25 to be given tomorrow.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic, again, no loud speaking. You can
3 consult with counsel after we have adjourned.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume tomorrow, the 24th, at 9.30.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of
8 September, 2014 at 9.30 a.m.