Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26116

 1                           Wednesday, 24 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The situation as far as the availability of Judge Fluegge to hear

12     the case has not changed.  The Judges are still of the opinion that it's

13     in the interests of justice to continue to hear the case; therefore, we

14     sit 15 bis today as well.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to briefly address the following

17     matter, that the Prosecution in yesterday's session raised the issue of

18     21 exhibits related to the current witness which are not currently part

19     of the Defence's 65 ter list, with the Defence further indicating that it

20     wished to formally ask for those exhibits to be added.  The Chamber

21     admitted one of those documents already - that's the D655 - although it

22     has not yet dealt with the remaining documents, and the Defence is hereby

23     instructed to make the necessary requests for the remaining documents at

24     the time it intends to use them.

25             Good morning, Mr. Sarenac.

Page 26117

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good morning.

 2                           WITNESS:  DESIMIR SARENAC [Resumed]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sarenac, I would like to remind you that you are

 4     still bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the

 5     beginning of your testimony.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, I understand that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, to end any doubt, have you done with your

 8     examination-in-chief?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I'm done with it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             Then Mr. Sarenac --

12             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to thank the witness for answering our

13     questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Mr. Sarenac, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.  You find

16     Mr. Weber to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

17             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.

19             Just in one follow-up matter from yesterday also on D655,

20     Mr. Lukic and I did have the opportunity to communicate about its origin,

21     and the Prosecution was informed that Mr. Lukic would inquire further

22     with the Karadzic Defence, and that's how the matters stand right now.  I

23     just wanted to place that on the record.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll hear further from Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31361 for

Page 26118

 1     the witness.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Sarenac.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   Sir, before you is a 1st SMBR combat report dated 1 December 1993

 6     from Veljko Stojanovic.  Directing your attention to item 4, it states:

 7             "Milorad (son of Pavle) Golijanin born in 1932, 2nd pb was

 8     wounded around 0400 hours in Ozrenska Street by a rifle-launched

 9     grenade."

10             Which is described also in the original as a Tromblona.

11     According to this, he was wounded in the arm, leg and buttocks, and he

12     later succumbed to his injuries in the Kasindol hospital.  Is it correct

13     that this individual who was injured belonged to the 2nd Battalion of

14     your Brigade?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   On the list that was shown to you yesterday, which is now D655,

17     entry number 87 on page 5 of the document indicates that a Milorad

18     Giljanin, son of Pavo, born in 1932, was injured in Ozrenska on

19     1 December 1993 as a result of a Tromblon.  Is it correct that this is

20     the same person who is mentioned in the report before you?

21        A.   Well, I course, I mean, I cannot confirm or deny it now.  I mean,

22     because there are many people, many families with the last name of

23     Golijanin and also first names, last names, father's names, et cetera.

24     What is shown here is a report that should be trusted, the brigade

25     commander -- now, it cannot be the same person there and here, of course.

Page 26119

 1     Because, as I've already said, there are so many Golijanins.  There are

 2     so many people with the last name of Golijanin.

 3        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that it is the same person based on the

 4     similarity of name, similarity of father's name, date of birth, the

 5     manner of wounding, the date and the location of the wounding.

 6        A.   I cannot say anything more about all of that to you now.  I can

 7     just say that the commander's report is truthful; the report of the

 8     commander of the brigade.

 9        Q.   Did you know whether or not there were members of the Army of

10     Republika Srpska on the list that you were shown yesterday when you were

11     providing evidence to this Chamber?

12        A.   Well, there are lots of people on that list.  I knew quite a few

13     people who had been wounded, and what it says there is "wounded persons."

14     I knew many people who had been wounded.  I remember some of their last

15     names and some of their first names, and I don't remember any specific

16     first and last names except for the persons that I mentioned yesterday.

17        Q.   Sir, you really haven't answered my question.  Did you know

18     whether or not there were members of the Army of Republika Srpska amongst

19     those names on the list?  If you knew, you knew; let us know.  And if you

20     didn't know, please let us know too.

21        A.   I didn't know and I didn't recognise anyone there, any of the

22     soldiers of Republika Srpska.

23             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31361 into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31361 receives number P6777, Your

Page 26120

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             Witness, you said it cannot be the same person here and there --

 4     I'm speaking at this moment.  You said it cannot be the same person.  Why

 5     can it not be the same person?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, I apologise.  I saw this last

 7     sentence now or, rather, the last part of this sentence, "died at the

 8     Kasindol hospital."  So this person was treated as a wounded person and

 9     then that person died.

10             Now, how that person was treated there, I mean, well, that is

11     different.  How he was brought there, I mean, he was brought there as a

12     wounded person and then he passed away there.  But of course -- now, I

13     cannot say.  I cannot say that he was not on that list and that he

14     mistakenly got on this list of civilians.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say I don't know, but it could be the same

16     person.  That's now your answer?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, it could be, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31362 for

20     the witness.  The Prosecution -- if we could go please directly to page 2

21     of the B/C/S and page 3 of the English translation.

22        Q.   Sir, this is a 24 September 1993 SRK regular combat report to the

23     VRS Main Staff.  Shortly we'll have item 7 of the report before us.

24     There's reference to three soldiers being slightly wounded, including

25     Mirko Trapara, who was born in 1927.

Page 26121

 1             Yesterday it seemed that you had some familiarity with certain

 2     members of the Trapara family.  Did you know that Mirko Trapara was a

 3     member of the SRK?

 4        A.   Yesterday I talked about Bosko Trapara.  He was well over 70 even

 5     at that time.  I know that he was born exactly on the 7th of January,

 6     Orthodox Christmas, and that is why he was named Bosko.  I knew him very

 7     well.  I spoke about Bosko Trapara yesterday.  However, there are many

 8     Traparas as well in the area of Lukavica, in the area of Kasindol,

 9     Bijelo Polje.

10        Q.   Sir, I'm asking --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- you specifically, did you know that Mirko Trapara was a member

13     of the SRK?

14        A.   Well, of course I did not know specifically of Mirko Trapara

15     personally.  I mean, there were several thousand soldiers in my brigade

16     so I couldn't, I mean --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers the question.  You apparently do not

18     know.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   On that list you looked at yesterday, a few lines above one of

22     the Traparas you commented on was a entry for Mirko Trapara born in 1927.

23     Do I understand from your answers then that you did not consider whether

24     this was a Mirko Trapara who was a member of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

25        A.   He was born in 1927.  There is no way he could have belonged to

Page 26122

 1     the Army of Republika Srpska at the time or, rather, he wasn't even

 2     subject to mobilisation.  Now how he happened to be there and how they

 3     included him here, I really cannot say.  It is probably because of his

 4     age that they classified him that way.

 5        Q.   Okay.  You really haven't answered my question again.  Do I

 6     understand that you did not consider Mr. Trapara, whether he was a part

 7     of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps when you looked at that list?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I think that the witness says that he

 9     could not be so therefore knowing what cannot be.

10             At the same time, Witness, it comes as a bit of a surprise

11     because the report that is shown to you talks about -- and that's a

12     military report signed by Dragomir Milosevic as Chief of Staff talks

13     about three soldiers, one of them being Mirko Trapara, born 1927.  So to

14     say it could not be that we have someone born in 1927 in the VRS, that

15     needs a lot of explanation and why Mr. Milosevic is referring to this

16     person born in 1927 as a soldier, if you say it can't be.

17             So apart from whether you knew him or not, but your explanation,

18     and perhaps you should stick rather to facts which are known to you

19     rather than to start reasoning and arguing about what could and what

20     could not be.

21             You see this Trapara born 1927 referred to as a soldier in the

22     report signed by Mr. Milosevic?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he maybe could have been a

24     volunteer, but from my point of view, he couldn't have been mobilised.

25     That's what I'm saying.  Quite simply, I mean --

Page 26123

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then apparently you are arguing.  I mean, the basis

 2     for all these questions is a list about civilians being treated in

 3     Kasindol hospital.  Mr. Weber seeks to establish that those on that list

 4     were not all civilians.

 5             Now, here, Mr. Trapara, and a person with a similar name appears,

 6     similar -- same year of birth appear on -- appears on that list, is

 7     called here a soldier, whether volunteer or whether he was in any other

 8     way arrived in the army, it's not very important, it's against being a

 9     civilian or not.  And now you tell us it couldn't be because he's born in

10     1927.

11             Please stick to the facts rather than to tell us what your

12     opinion is.  What could be, what could not be, stick to the facts.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   In paragraph 43 of your statement in this case, you state in part

16     of the paragraph:

17             "The document that has been shown to me," then there's a number

18     relating to that list that we looked at, "seriously or gravely injured

19     civilians hospitalised at the Kasindol hospital 1992, 1995, clearly shows

20     a large number of civilians killed by enemy fire."

21             And it continues, but I'll end the quote there.  Had you ever

22     seen this document before it was shown to you?

23        A.   That list, the list of injured persons, I saw it, of course.  I

24     didn't study it.  I just recognised the people I knew myself, that I knew

25     personally.  I did not study the other information there, and I didn't

Page 26124

 1     have the opportunity of comparing whether any of them were soldiers or

 2     not, or in uniform or not, et cetera.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I don't know how much time we are going

 4     to deal with this but, of course, at face value, it does to that

 5     extent -- I think the witness cannot be blamed for saying that.  At the

 6     same time, you are exploring and you have explored the reliability of the

 7     information as being related to civilians or not.  That's -- I mean,

 8     there's no need to make the witness admit that it may not be reliable.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Thank you for that, Your Honour.  The Prosecution

12     would tender 65 ter 31362 into evidence.  And just for the record, the

13     Prosecution maintains its position with respect to D655.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31362 receives number P6778, Your

16     Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P6778 is admitted.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just out of caution, I'd ask that the

19     Chamber provide the witness a Rule 90(E) admonishment at this time.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sarenac, I don't know what questions Mr. Weber

21     will put to you, but he considers it appropriate to give you information

22     about Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and I'll read

23     that rule to you.  And when it talks about a witness, you are the witness

24     at this moment.

25             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

Page 26125

 1     incriminate the witness."

 2             Therefore, might tend to incriminate yourself.

 3             "The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to answer the

 4     question.  Testimony compelled in this way, shall not be used as evidence

 5     in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any offence other

 6     than false testimony."

 7             So if you think that a truthful answer to any of the questions

 8     Mr. Weber will put to you might tend to incriminate yourself, you may

 9     address me and then we'll decide whether or not you will be compelled to

10     answer that question and what the consequences are.

11             Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Is it correct that Veljko Stojanovic was your brigade commander

14     in the 1st SMBR?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   Aside from a period between May and October 1995, is it correct

17     that you were stationed in Lukavica throughout your time in the

18     Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

19        A.   Yes, that is correct.

20        Q.   Is it correct that you were one of the most senior officers at

21     the Slavisa Vajner Cica or Cica barracks in Lukavica?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.

23        Q.   As part of your duties at the Cica barracks, you were responsible

24     for monitoring the movement in and out of this compound; correct?

25        A.   Well, of course I was responsible for discipline and everything

Page 26126

 1     else, this included.

 2        Q.   When you say "this included," it included movement in and out of

 3     the Cica barracks; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   The Cica barracks was located to the north of the Slobodan

 6     Princip Selo barracks where the SRK command was located; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that would be the relationship, as it were, between the

 8     barracks.

 9        Q.   In your statement, paragraph 19, you indicate that your units

10     were provided with copies of extracts from international conventions

11     describing the rules of conduct towards the enemy, prisoners, and

12     civilian population and the provisions of international humanitarian law

13     in general.

14             Were you informed by your superiors about anything related to the

15     use of prisoners for forced labour?

16        A.   Of course, as far as our obligations are concerned, in terms of

17     abiding by the rules of the Geneva Convention, it was not once but it was

18     several times that we got photocopied or especially printed provisions of

19     the Convention as to how prisoners from the opposing side should be

20     treated.

21        Q.   Did they tell you that using prisoners of war for dangerous work

22     details is contrary to the rules of war?

23        A.   Of course they told us, and that was clear to me anyway.

24        Q.   You were then aware that placing prisoners in life-threatening

25     conditions is prohibited.

Page 26127

 1        A.   Of course.  Of course I knew that.

 2        Q.   Mr. Sarenac, at this time, I'm going to ask you to watch a video

 3     clip from a Sky News broadcast in September 1992 and then I will have a

 4     number of questions for you afterwards.

 5             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a portion of

 6     Exhibit P81.  The time code for this would be 5 minute 25 seconds to 6

 7     minute, 25 seconds.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  About -- interpretation, is there -- for the record,

 9     does it have to be played twice or ...?  It has to be played twice.

10             You will look at it two times, that is because we prepare the

11     interpretation during the first viewing, and then we'll receive the final

12     interpretation or -- you, because I do not know whether it's -- the

13     original is English or not, you will then receive or we will receive the

14     final interpretation in the second viewing.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I read the time codes from the original

17     and we're just verifying the time codes on the clip, P81.

18                           [Videotape played]

19             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, we'll now replay it from the, I

20     believe, 1 minute 42 second line for the translation.

21             Sorry, it's 1:48:49.

22                           [Videotape played]

23             "At Kula, that does not happen, but the men are forced to work in

24     fields close to Sarajevo's battle-grounds.  Some are being hit out in the

25     open, but more have suffered according to the prisoners when they are

Page 26128

 1     taken to dig trenches in Sarajevo's front lines in complete contradiction

 2     of all war conventions.

 3             "They take us in teams of ten to dig trenches between front line

 4     buildings, usually three dig and three others throw out up the earth.

 5     It's dangerous.  One prisoner has been killed and two wounded.

 6             "The Serb warden promises the men will be released if an exchange

 7     can be arranged.  But none of them are likely to ever be able to return

 8     to their home village, now firmly in Serb hands.  Aernout van Lynden, Sky

 9     News, Sarajevo."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I followed, for purposes of the

11     interpretation, the B/C/S channel and I noticed that when Mr. Van Lynden,

12     the reporter, was speaking, that it was not translated into B/C/S, if I

13     observed that well.

14             Could the B/C/S booth confirm whether the English spoken text was

15     interpreted for the witness?  And I move now to the B/C/S channel to hear

16     the answer.

17             Yes, I -- it's confirmed by the interpreters that it was read the

18     first time and not in the second round and I listened in only in the

19     second round, so this has been --

20             So you have received B/C/S translation for the whole of the clip.

21             Then you may proceed, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard that.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Sarenac, were you aware of anything that is discussed in the

Page 26129

 1     video that we just saw?

 2        A.   I do not recognise this.  I cannot relate it to myself or my job

 3     at the barracks or in the brigade.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question.  The question was whether

 5     you were aware in whatever way, professionally, whether you heard it

 6     otherwise, whether you saw it, no limitations, were you aware of this or

 7     these kind of things happening?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I heard that people were

 9     used to do different sorts of jobs.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And what do you mean by "different sort of jobs,"

11     being baking and cleaning a room, or -- please tell us what you meant by

12     "different sort of jobs."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] specifically at my barracks,

14     shields were put up to protect from sniping.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was not limited to your barracks, but at

16     least you have told us that shields were put up.  By prisoners?  You are

17     nodding, you are confirming?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The labour platoon did that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The labour platoon of prisoners?  Did they have

20     platoons?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case, they were not

22     prisoners.  They were both Serbs and Muslims, local residents who were

23     not otherwise engaged in the army.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But that was not the question.  The question is

25     about what you saw here, and it is prisoners being used for dangerous

Page 26130

 1     jobs.  Then it's of no use to tell us that those who were not prisoners

 2     did dangerous jobs because the issue is about prisoners doing dangerous

 3     jobs.

 4             By the way, I asked you what you meant by "different sort of

 5     jobs," what you heard, as you said.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not eye witness such things,

 7     nor did I issue orders for people to work.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Our patience is limited, Mr. Sarenac.  You were not

 9     asked whether you eye-witnessed anything.  You told us you heard

10     prisoners being used for different sort of jobs.

11             The question is:  What did you hear about these jobs to be?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably this included these jobs,

13     they were probably used for digging.  But I'm speaking in general.  I

14     don't know of any specific case.  I did hear about such things.  I was

15     able to hear that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You heard this kind of jobs being included and that

17     makes you believe that this probably has been the case.  Is that well

18     understood?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed and try to answer in a more direct

21     way to questions and not answer questions that are not put to you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to 65 ter 31279 for

24     the witness.

25             I'm just waiting, Your Honours, because I don't have it on the

Page 26131

 1     screen.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't have it on the screen either.  There it

 3     is.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   Okay.  Before you is a copy of the statement from Zeljko Bambarez

 6     regarding an incident of 31 December 1993 regarding five working platoons

 7     from Grbavica and ten prisoners from Kula who were performing engineering

 8     works.

 9             At the bottom of the page, it states:

10             "Accuracy of the copy verified by authorised official at the

11     security organ."

12             And then we see your name and a signature.  Do you acknowledge

13     that this signature is yours?

14        A.   Yes, that's my signature.

15        Q.   In the third paragraph of this document --

16             MR. WEBER:  If we could go to the previous page in the English.

17        Q.   It indicates that people were working at the hilltop before

18     Osmica and below Osmica.  Is it correct that this area was in the

19     immediate vicinity of the confrontation line?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Toward the bottom of the page in both languages, Mr. Bambarez

22     states that:

23             "Dragan Lakanovic was there and I told him to watch the prisoners

24     until I go to the hilltop and come back.  I was there for maximum 10

25     minutes and I was returning.  Lakanovic was shooting at four of them who

Page 26132

 1     had started to run away.  Two more prisoners were at that spot, and I

 2     managed to take them out of the communication trench?"

 3             Is it correct that members of the 1st SMBR shot at prisoners who

 4     tried to escape?

 5        A.   I made a copy of that statement for certain purposes.  Of course,

 6     I lost sight of it.  I made a copy for some court or something.  In any

 7     case, I had made a copy of that statement and I accepted that statement

 8     there as it is.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, you are answering a question which

10     is not put to you.  The question was whether it's correct that members of

11     this brigade shot at prisoners who tried to escape.  If you know, tell

12     us; if you don't know, tell us as well.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I remember, probably yes.

14     I can only now -- I mean, I'm looking at this document now.  I know that

15     I had earlier made a copy.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we just look at the last page again.

17             Mr. Sarenac, what do you mean by "having verified the accuracy of

18     the copy"?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement, accompanied by a

20     certain document, was meant for the corps.  It was written for the corps,

21     and it was accompanied by some document.  Now I don't remember what

22     exactly it was.  I didn't make it for any other purpose --

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you, Mr. Sarenac.  That's not my

24     question.  My question is:  What do you mean when you say you have

25     verified the accuracy of this copy?

Page 26133

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It confirms authenticity.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That what is contained in this document is

 3     authentic?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you can only confirm authenticity after having

 6     read the entire document and satisfied yourself of the truthfulness of

 7     what is in the total document.  Isn't it so?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I verified the accuracy of the

 9     statement of Zeljko Bambarez.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did you hear my question?  My question is:  You

11     can only determine authenticity after having read the document and

12     satisfied yourself of the truthfulness of the content.  And that's what

13     you did.  Isn't it so?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you very much.  So you can answer the

16     question then put to you by Mr. Weber that members of your brigade shot

17     at prisoners who were escaping.  That's accurate, according to your

18     verification.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  Thank you.

21             MR. WEBER:

22        Q.   In the last paragraph of this document, which is at the bottom of

23     page 1 in the B/C/S and is on page 2 that is before us, Mr. Bambarez

24     states:

25             "I just want to mention that regardless of all dangers that were

Page 26134

 1     in places that were to be guarded (during the day a dozen bombs landed a

 2     metre or two away from me), I was with them all the time until that

 3     moment."

 4             I come back to this now because of your previous answers.  Is it

 5     correct that you were aware that members of your brigade were taking

 6     prisoners to work in locations that were dangerous and were subjected to

 7     things like we see here, appears to be shelling.  You were aware of this;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you do anything to prevent the continued use of prisoners as

11     part of dangerous work details?

12        A.   My position in the command of the brigade, in my specific organ,

13     was not of that nature.  I did not either plan the use of men or the

14     building of fortifications, and I was not in a position to either decide

15     that it would be done or to prevent it.

16        Q.   Okay.  So you didn't do anything, and we have your explanation

17     now as to what you feel as why.

18        A.   Well, nobody asked me in advance whether it could be done or not.

19     Everybody did their own job.  I had so much work in my own area.  I had

20     no time to deal with this until this incident occurred.

21             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31279 receives number P6779, Your

24     Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 26135

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31319 for

 2     the witness.

 3        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is a statement from Drago Lakanovic who

 4     was referenced in the previous document regarding the same shooting

 5     incident that we just discussed.  Could you please confirm that this is

 6     your signature at the bottom of the document.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution will also tender this document into

 9     evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31319 receives number P6780, Your

12     Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31320 for

15     the witness.

16        Q.   Before you is a statement from Lieutenant Aleksandar Pandurevic,

17     assistant commander for the intelligence and security, regarding the same

18     incident that we are discussing.

19             Again, is this your signature at the bottom of the document?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   With respect to these last two notes that we have seen, is it

22     correct that you forwarded both of them to the corps command?

23        A.   I suppose so.  That's why they were done.  Why else would they

24     be?

25             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31320 into evidence.

Page 26136

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31320 receives number P6781, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31297 for

 6     the witness.

 7        Q.   Sir, before you is a report written on your behalf, I see, to the

 8     penal and correctional facility Butmir Kula on designating prisoners for

 9     works in the Cica barracks.  It appears that it's signed for you by

10     Vojo Planincic.  Could you please tell us who this person is.

11        A.   Yes, Planincic was my deputy, my stand-in, and I was away at the

12     time because my brother or cousin, Cedo, died, got killed on the 28th of

13     May, 1993, and I attended the funeral in the village near Borik.

14        Q.   On the bottom left side of the document, we see that it is

15     handwritten "671-592 Soniboj.  Take for processing immediately."

16             Is it correct that that reference to Soniboj relates to an

17     official at the Kula prison?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could you -- we'll look at some more documents related to him in

20     a little bit.  But could you tell the Chamber right now what his position

21     was.

22        A.   I think at that time and later, he was the warden of that

23     institution, Kula.

24        Q.   Did you ever visit the Kula prison during the war?

25        A.   I visited on a couple of occasions.  One of them was when the

Page 26137

 1     Muslims had shelled this facility some time in the spring of 1993, and

 2     that's when a relative of mine was killed, Sredoje Radojcic, who was in

 3     detention there.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that the Kula prison is near the Lukavica barracks?

 5     And when I'm referring to that barracks, I'm referring to the command

 6     post of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, not your barracks, the Cica

 7     barracks.

 8        A.   It was closer to the airport than to the barracks.  It's about 2

 9     to 3 kilometres from the barracks.

10             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31297 receives number P6782, Your

13     Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31308 for

16     the witness.

17        Q.   Before you is a request signed and stamped by Lieutenant-Colonel

18     Veljko Stojanovic dated the 1st of February, 1993 to engage 15 to 20

19     prisoners from the Kula prison for the consolidation of fortification

20     features for combat operations and protection between 1 and 5 February

21     1993.

22             Underneath this request it states:

23             "The SRK intelligence and security organ agrees with the request

24     of Lieutenant-Colonel Stojanovic regarding the engage of prisoners and

25     recommends that the request be realised."

Page 26138

 1             As for the details on carrying it out, Captain Vojo Planincic has

 2     been designated from VP 5712.  And then we see that this then contains

 3     the stamp and seal with the signature of Marko Lugonja, the chief of the

 4     intelligence and security organ of the SRK.

 5             This is the same Vojo Planincic who was your deputy; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that you were aware of these assignments that went

 8     through the brigade command and the SRK command?

 9        A.   Yes, in this case, I was, certainly.

10             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31308 into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31308 receives number P6783, Your

13     Honours.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm going to try and sneak in one quick

15     document before the break, if I can.

16             If the Prosecution could please have 65 ter 31305 for the

17     witness.

18        Q.   Sir, before you is a request by -- another request by

19     Lieutenant-Colonel Stojanovic dated the 24th of January, 1993 to engage

20     15 prisoners from the Kula prison to perform certain works, include the

21     construction of installations and digging of trenches along the range

22     behind the confrontation lines.

23             The document that we just looked at before this appeared to be a

24     request to have these prisoners continue this work.

25             Is it correct -- were you aware of this previous engagement also

Page 26139

 1     which we see going through the brigade command?

 2        A.   I confirmed the other one, but I was not necessarily even aware

 3     of this one.  Not all the documents for the commander went through me.

 4     He never refers to myself or my organ here.

 5             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

 6     evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31305 receives number P6784, Your

 9     Honours.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I see we're at the time for the break.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, admitted into evidence.

12             Witness, may I take you -- before we take a break, may I take you

13     back to one of your previous answers.

14             When asked about whether you knew about these jobs and where you

15     talked about that sort of "different sort of jobs," you said that you

16     heard about prisoners being used for different sort of jobs.  What kind

17     of jobs these were, and you said "probably this included these jobs.

18     They were probably used for digging.  But I'm speaking in general.  I

19     don't know of any specific case.  I did hear about such things.  I was

20     able to hear that."

21             It's only a minute or two ago when you were asked:  "Is it

22     correct that you were aware of these assignments that went through the

23     brigade command and the SRK command?"

24             Your answer was:  "Yes, in this case, I was, certainly."

25             So, at one moment, you tell us that you have some kind of -- you

Page 26140

 1     heard something, some kind of general knowledge, no specific cases, you

 2     add there specifically.  And five minutes later, when looking at the

 3     documents, you say, Yes, in this case, I was certainly aware of these

 4     assignments.

 5             Are you aware of perhaps -- or may I ask you, do you have any

 6     comment on why you say five minutes ago that you were not aware of any

 7     specific cases, and five minutes later, you say you were?

 8             If you have any comment.  I just put it to you that that's what I

 9     observed.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your Honour,

11     after 20 years, these were not characteristic jobs.  These were not

12     things that went on all the time.  After 20 years, I allow myself to say

13     this.  I'm almost 67 years old.  And not having any documents that could

14     have refreshed my memory, I mean, that's it.  I had no other reason to

15     deny that or to give any other kind of answer.  I mean, no other reason.

16             Because this was not --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should have told us on from the beginning

18     that if you had been unable to verify the documents, that your memory

19     would not serve you sufficiently to answer those questions.  What that

20     would have meant for the Defence, whether to call you as a witness, yes

21     or no, is a different matter, but whatever the reason may be, this

22     Chamber does not expect you, on these points -- of course if it's a lack

23     of memory, you say, I've forgotten it five minutes ago but now I know

24     again, then that's your comment on what I just said.  Leave it to that.

25             You may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in 20

Page 26141

 1     minutes.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

 7     into the courtroom, I'd like to put on the record that I failed to decide

 8     on document 31308, which was assigned number P6783.  P6783 is admitted

 9     into evidence.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13        Q.   Sir, I forgot to ask you something in relation to a previous

14     document that we looked at.  It was P6782.  In that document, you were

15     listed as the Barracks Commander Captain 1st Class Desimir Sarenac.

16             Is it correct that you were the barracks commander for the Cica

17     barracks?

18        A.   Well, yes, as the ranking officer in the barracks in the command,

19     I had that position too.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31295 for

21     the witness.

22        Q.   Sir, before you is a report you authored dated 10 April 1994 that

23     you sent to the SRK intelligence and security department with the subject

24     line "Muslim prisoners escaping."

25             In the first paragraph of the document --

Page 26142

 1             MR. WEBER:  Is the translation not available?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be no translation.  Is it a document

 3     which originally stems from the Office of the Prosecution, or is it --

 4             MR. WEBER:  It is.  And I do see that we do, I think, have a

 5     translation available for this document.

 6             We will work on it being uploaded.

 7             Your Honours, if I may proceed with the question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you slowly proceed and keep in mind that we may

 9     face some problems in the absence of an English translation, then for the

10     time being, you may proceed.

11             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

12        Q.   Sir, I'd like to draw your attention to paragraph -- the first

13     paragraph of this document where you list the names of four individuals,

14     Mejfudin Hadzic, Midhat Hadzic, Ekrem Hadzic and then Savic Cosic, and

15     then the area below these names where I believe it states:

16             "The escape took place in the afternoon after the contractor,

17     Vojislav Vukotic, took the prisoners to a military detention facility for

18     accommodation at the end of a working day.  Upon arrival to the detention

19     facility one of the prisoners knocked on the detention facility warden's

20     door while making a hand gesture to Vukotic as if the detention facility

21     warden was in his office.  Vukotic then left the prisoners at the

22     detention facility."

23             Do you see this information?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes, I see that.

25        Q.   It then goes on to describe how the prisoners escaped in the

Page 26143

 1     course of the evening and the detention warden was not present at the

 2     time.  Do you know the facility warden that's being referred to here in

 3     this document?

 4        A.   At this time, it was Risto Bajago.

 5        Q.   In the following paragraph, it indicates:

 6             "The said prisoner group in this composition had worked about one

 7     year on various jobs around the FSVC barracks under above-mentioned

 8     Vukotic's control.  After their working day was over, they would be taken

 9     to their accommodation at the Kula KPD?"

10             Do you see this information?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   The reference to the barracks is a reference to the barracks that

13     you were a command of; correct?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   In footnote 1, it indicates that Mr. Vukotic was a work

16     contractor in the capacity of an army member.  Could you please tell us

17     what was Mr. Vukotic's role at the barracks.

18        A.   Vukotic was an elderly man born in 1925; you can see that here.

19     He worked in maintenance when things were supposed to be repaired, like a

20     facade that had been hit, or for instance, a wall, also taking care of

21     the park within the barracks.  That's what Vukotic did because he

22     couldn't really do other things.

23             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 26144

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31295 receives number P6785, Your

 2     Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 4             I put on the record that the English translation meanwhile

 5     appeared on our screens.  And is it uploaded?  It's already part of

 6     e-court so it has been uploaded in e-court as well.  Therefore, nothing

 7     prevents us from admitting it.  It's admitted into evidence.

 8             I have one additional question, Witness.  We see that prisoners

 9     were used for certain jobs and that they were imprisoned, for example, in

10     the Butmir prison or -- well, they are borrowed from penitentiary

11     institutions or detention facilities.  Do you know - if you don't know

12     tell us - whether these were prisoners of war or were they civilians

13     detained awaiting exchange or whatever?  Could you tell us what their

14     status was?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in this case, it would be

16     very hard for me to determine their status.  Because, for already a year,

17     the same people had been working there.  Probably they were prisoners of

18     war.  I think that would be it.  Maybe they were waiting --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Why do you think that?  We've seen earlier that

20     military officials ask for prisoners to be sent to them where nothing

21     indicates that these are prisoners of war, and the Chamber has received

22     evidence that persons were detained, being civilians waiting for

23     exchange.  What makes you believe that these persons who --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I put here in the

25     heading, Muslims of -- prisoners of Muslim ethnicity escaping.  So they

Page 26145

 1     were prisoners.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's clear.  But why, that was my question,

 3     why did you quickly say "must be prisoners of war" rather than civilians

 4     being detained?  What makes you so quickly jump to that conclusion?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know even now.  I

 6     hadn't even seen all of this, but this is what the document specifically

 7     says.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  What does the document say about them being

 9     prisoners of war or civilians being detained?

10             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the English booth, please.

12     Interpreter's note:  Can you hear the English booth now?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We can hear you now, but we missed the answer of the

14     witness.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness said that's what the heading says,

16     prisoners of Muslim ethnicity escaping.  That's what the heading says.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, apparently then that's on your mind that if you

18     were a Muslim prisoner, that you must be a prisoner of war rather than a

19     civilian being imprisoned for good or bad reasons.

20             This Chamber received evidence that civilians were detained as

21     well, and that's the reason why, in the beginning, I asked you whether

22     you know, and I gave you an opportunity to say that you don't know.  And

23     apparently, from what I see now, you're trying to draw conclusions from

24     what you see as a text on the screen, whereas the only thing I'm

25     interested in is whether you know something, not what your conclusions

Page 26146

 1     are on the basis of what you see on the screen, as you say, not being

 2     familiar with those documents.

 3             So you don't know.  Is that well understood?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what the status of

 5     these persons was specifically.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a slightly different question to ask.

 9             You told us that you were the warden of these barracks where

10     these prisoners came from; is that not -- is that correct?

11             If you can answer in words rather than by nodding so that the

12     record can reflect your answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was trying to indicate that I was

14     following what you were saying.

15             As for this, in my barracks, prisoners were not held.  It's only

16     people who had fled from the other side, but they just stayed there for a

17     while and --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you.  Just answer my question, please.

19     The barracks from which these prisoners were taken for a year to go and

20     work, was it the barracks of which you were a warden?

21             MR. WEBER:  Judge, just to interrupt you, I believe he said he

22     was the commander.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Commander.  Commander of, yes, you were the

24     commander of that barracks.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 26147

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And for a year you authorised these workers to go

 2     out and do work?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  They worked within the compound of

 4     the barracks, and they were taken to the KPD Kula and --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's not my question.  Did you authorise the

 6     release of these prisoners for a year to go out to work?

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you have an answer?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They worked with Vojo Vukotic, an

10     old man born in 1925, and they did not have any other security.  They

11     were trusted to such a degree.  I mean, there was no other security

12     there.  They were just together.  And they repaired certain things within

13     the barracks.  That is correct.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But that's not answering my question.  You

15     authorised their use to do the work.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that, yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             Thank you, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go on to 65 ter 31298,

20     sub-letter A, for the witness.  And the Prosecution would note that the

21     full version of this material is available under 31298 but for the use in

22     court today, we've tried to streamline the amount of the document.

23        Q.   Sir, just so you have an explanation, this is a notebook, it's

24     specifically coming up before you, it will be excerpts from the notebook

25     containing information on the daily activities of the Kula prison from

Page 26148

 1     3 January 1993 through 3 November 1993.  This notebook was recovered by

 2     the Office of the Prosecutor on 9 July 2003 at the Kula detention centre,

 3     formerly known as KP Dom Butmir Ilidza.  I just wanted you to have that

 4     context before we proceeded.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the B/C/S

 6     and page 5 of the English version.

 7        Q.   This is an entry of 24 January 1993.  On this page, we see a

 8     chart containing a list of various work sites, which includes the SVC

 9     barracks under item 7.  Are you familiar with these work sites that are

10     listed here?

11        A.   Yes, I am familiar with them.

12        Q.   Okay.  We're going to be going through many entries, so I will

13     come back and ask you about the specific ones as we go through the

14     entries.

15             On the right-hand side column, below the column "remarks," we see

16     Dobrinja and below it, there is a list of names.  At the bottom of the

17     page under this column, it states:  Hadzic, Mejfudin, and Borcilo, Nihad

18     on the approval of warden S. Soniboj."

19             And underneath that, we see that there's an arrow next to which

20     it states:  "With the approval of Warden Skiljevic."

21             Is this the same Warden Soniboj of the Kula facility that you

22     referred to earlier today?

23        A.   Well, probably.  I didn't know another one.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, who, then, is also then Warden Skiljevic?

25        A.   Yes, that's the warden, Skiljevic.

Page 26149

 1        Q.   The warden of where?

 2        A.   The warden -- well, of that institution, Kula.  I mean, that

 3     institution, that prison.  He was the prison warden.

 4        Q.   In the document that we just looked at before coming to this

 5     notebook, we saw the name Mejfudin Hadzic appearing in a report to the

 6     SRK security intelligence organ.  And this was the same document that

 7     referred to this individual being taken out for work details for almost a

 8     year.  Is it correct that this is the same Mejfudin Hadzic that was

 9     mentioned in your report from April 1994?

10        A.   Well, I cannot say that for sure because this is a different

11     location, Dobrinja.  Who was working there, I don't know.  I cannot claim

12     that it's one and the same.

13        Q.   Nor could you exclude it; correct?

14        A.   Well, I cannot exclude it either, of course.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of the B/C/S

16     and page 2 of the English translation.

17        Q.   And, sir, just so you know, on that previous page 1, the work

18     sites that was listed on it that you said that you were familiar with was

19     Dobrinja, so I am going to ask you some questions about it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you do so, Mr. Weber, I noticed that at the

21     bottom of this page, it says that this is page 1 out of 8, whereas the

22     cover page is 1 out of 21, and the third page is 1 out of -- is number 2

23     out of 21, and the fourth page is -- there is something odd in the

24     numbering of the pages which is also reflected if you look at not the

25     official e-court pages but the way in which we find them listed.  We see

Page 26150

 1     that it jumps from 1 and 2, then to 4, 5, 6, 7.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, a very simple explanation for that is

 3     that there were multiple different translations that were requested for

 4     parts of this at different times.  For the sake of coherence, the

 5     Prosecution has ordered these translations, the segments from them, in

 6     chronological order as they actually appear in the original which we've

 7     also excerpted.  So I appreciate that the numbers may be different at the

 8     different pages because they relate to different partial translations.

 9     They appear in the sequential order which they do in the original

10     document in this upload.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So we have to look in the original to see

12     whether this is really chronologically in order.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   This is an entry from 3 January 1993.  It states that a prisoner

16     named Izudin Hodzic was wounded in the left thigh by a sniper round in

17     Dobrinja at 1245 hours.

18             Is it correct that you are aware that this area is close to the

19     confrontation line?

20        A.   Yes.  Yes, I know that.

21        Q.   Were you aware of prisoners being hit by sniper fire while they

22     were doing work near the confrontation lines in Dobrinja?

23        A.   In this particular case, I see this case but I do not --

24        Q.   Sir, I'm not isolating it to a particular case.  I'm asking you

25     more generally.  Were you aware that this was happening?

Page 26151

 1        A.   At this moment, I cannot remember a particular example.

 2        Q.   Okay.  We'll go through some more examples.  There's an

 3     indication --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, no one asked you for an example.  They asked

 5     whether you had general knowledge of this thing happening.  And even

 6     without knowing that on one day this happened, you can tell us whether or

 7     not you were aware of these kind of things, even if you don't know the

 8     details, were happening.

 9             I have to stress again that you have to answer the questions.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I allow for the possibility that I

11     knew of that, but now I'm saying specifically that I cannot remember.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's an answer to the question.

13             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   We see here that Mr. Hodzic received medical assistance.  Do you

16     know if prisoners were taken to the Kasindol hospital to receive medical

17     assistance from injuries that they received at the front lines either as

18     a result of sniping or shelling?

19        A.   I don't know that.  I can't confirm.

20             MR. WEBER:  Going on to another entry.  Could the Prosecution

21     please have page --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, are you able to tell us where

23     this specific witness might have received treatment?  Did I say

24     "witness"?  Oh.  I'm sorry.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose it could have been

Page 26152

 1     provided at Kula, but I cannot be sure.  I know that there was no other

 2     medical institution to provide it.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the B/C/S

 5     and page 7 of the English.

 6        Q.   Sir, on this page we will see an entry for 2 February 1993, and

 7     we see a similar chart as we looked at before listing various work sites.

 8             At the bottom of the page, and if we could go to page 8 in the

 9     English, it states:

10             "The Muslim prisoner Izudin Hodzic was killed by the Muslim side,

11     by sniper, at the Zlatiste work site."

12             Sir, this work site is also by the confrontation lines; correct?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Sir, earlier in this same notebook, we saw that this individual

15     Izudin Hodzic was shot by sniper fire in Dobrinja.  Is it your evidence

16     that you were not aware of the continual use of prisoners at the front

17     lines?

18             Here we have an example where an individual appears to have been

19     taken out on two different occasions to two different locations, shot and

20     injured the first time, and then killed a month later.  Were you aware of

21     this?

22        A.   In this case, I don't know what the circumstances were, where

23     they went, where they worked.  I was probably notified and this is the

24     warden's note.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 6 of the

Page 26153

 1     B/C/S.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, could we look at the previous

 3     page in the English.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Of course.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, at the bottom of that page, it's written:

 6             "Five men were taken to Kasindol hospital for a checkup at 11.40

 7     with Milan Vasic and were returned at 12.40."

 8             Do you see that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see that.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Does this mean that some of these men that were

11     prisoners and had been injured here are taken to the Kasindol hospital?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems to be so, looking at this.

13     But the prison was not in my purview.  I cannot provide any further

14     comment.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking about the prison.  I'm just wanting

16     to establish that prisoners were sent to Kasindol hospital for medical

17     attention.  Remember we spoke about a list of civilians yesterday.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's obvious, yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 6 of the B/C/S

21     and page 9 of the English.

22        Q.   Sir, this is an entry that relates to 6 February 1993.  A

23     prisoner named Nihad Mehmedovic was wounded in the arm by shrapnel at the

24     Krtelji work site.

25             Could you please tell us where this work site was located?  It's

Page 26154

 1     one of the ones that you said you were familiar with on the previous

 2     page.

 3        A.   I am familiar with the place name.  Krtelji is close to the

 4     airfield, it's about 4 kilometres from my barracks.

 5        Q.   We see here that Mr. -- that this individual was transferred to

 6     the Kasindol hospital.  Just following up on Judge Moloto's question, is

 7     this again another incidence where we see that someone who is injured by

 8     shrapnel was taken to the Kasindol hospital?

 9        A.   I'm now supposed to interpret somebody else's document, but it

10     seems evident from what is written, yes.

11        Q.   When you were providing comments on the Kasindol hospital

12     yesterday at transcript page 26105, you stated:  "The hospital treated

13     both uniformed personnel and civilians."

14             Could you explain to us why you did not tell the Chamber that the

15     hospital also treated prisoners who were injured during work details?

16        A.   Probably.  Although it never crossed my mind, and I did not deal

17     with these matters.  But the only medical institution that was

18     specialised in providing all assistance was that one.  Military uniformed

19     personnel was only temporarily accommodated there.

20        Q.   Sir, just so you're aware, our case would not be that you're

21     totally unaware of these events.  It would be that you are the commander

22     of the Cica barracks and, as we've seen, you've authored documents

23     related to the use of these prisoners.  Do you have any comment on that

24     observation?

25        A.   I didn't quite understand your question.  What are you asking?

Page 26155

 1        Q.   Sir, what I'm putting to you is the fact that you are claiming to

 2     be unaware of certain -- unaware of matters relating to the use of

 3     prisoners at the front lines.  That's not totally accurate.  That as

 4     commander of the Cica barracks and an individual who authored a number of

 5     documents related to these prisoners as part of work details, that you

 6     are, in fact, aware of the use of prisoners on the front lines and them

 7     being injured.

 8        A.   Well, I didn't deny that especially when you refreshed my memory.

 9     I confirmed it.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's go through some more entries.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 12 of the

12     B/C/S and page 17 of the English.

13        Q.   This is an entry related to 28 February 1993 and a Muslim

14     prisoner named Isme Hidic who was killed by a sniper round at the

15     Novakovici work site.  Could you please tell us where this work site was.

16        A.   Novakovici is a village on the periphery of Dobrinja.

17        Q.   This entry indicates that Mr. Hidic was transferred to the

18     Lukavica hospital, to the morgue.  Was there a Lukavica hospital?  Is

19     this a different hospital than the Kasindol hospital or is it the same?

20        A.   It's probably Kasindol hospital.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 11 of the

22     B/C/S and page 15 of the English.

23        Q.   At the bottom of this page it states:

24             "On 27th February 1993, at 1700 hours, two persons of Muslim

25     nationality, Mehmed Simic and Safet Hrapo, were detained from Vogosca and

Page 26156

 1     escorted by Sasa Blagovcanin, member of the Vogosca Brigade Military

 2     Police."

 3             Then there's a note:  "The detained persons have visible

 4     injuries."

 5             Below this in the original - and if we could have the next page

 6     of the English translation - it states:

 7             "The persons who worked at the work place near Sucuri complain

 8     that they dare not go to the above-mentioned work place because they have

 9     been maltreated and physically beaten."

10             Were you aware of these prisoners being physically beaten?  Is it

11     correct this happened?

12        A.   In cases that I was aware of, I took steps, I heard of such

13     cases.

14        Q.   How many such cases did you hear of, of prisoners being

15     physically beaten?

16        A.   At this moment, I remember two cases when I took disciplinary

17     measures.  I suggested that the commander of the military police be

18     replaced for allowing force to be used against the prisoners.

19        Q.   My question wasn't exactly limited to instances where you did

20     something.  How many cases did you hear of prisoners being physically

21     beaten?

22        A.   I don't know anymore how many cases I'd heard of.  But this was

23     not constant practice, and my policemen and everybody who worked with the

24     prisoners knew very well that I don't tolerate such things.  I don't

25     allow them.

Page 26157

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 9 of the B/C/S

 2     and page 12 of the English.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask first.  Did you make a record

 4     of the disciplinary measures that you took against those who did do these

 5     things?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I reported to the

 7     commander and made a record.  And when it was not within my jurisdiction

 8     to take measures, I suggested measures to the commander.  But our records

 9     are now scattered all over the place.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  What did you do when taking measures was within your

12     jurisdiction?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned the replacement of the

14     military police commander, that something the commander did at my

15     proposal, and I proposed disciplinary measures to the commander

16     suggesting that such persons be removed from their units because such

17     people should not be allowed to work with prisoners.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you take any disciplinary measures yourself?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Disciplinary measures, such as

20     remand in custody, et cetera, were not within my purview, within my

21     powers.  I could propose them to the commander.  I could also propose

22     that the person be transferred.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  In your position, you had no disciplinary powers at

24     all?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not for this type of infraction.

Page 26158

 1     It was a more serious violation to be dealt with by the commander.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any written -- did you write to the

 3     commander that you would seek disciplinary measures to be taken

 4     against -- apart from this one example, you say, but this -- what I see

 5     is, I would say, a constant system of the use of prisoners for labour and

 6     now also ill-treatment and beatings of prisoners.

 7             Did you ever take any measures?  Did you write any reports about

 8     this or suggested disciplinary matters to be taken, rather than the

 9     prisoners to be taken out again the day after that or beatings to

10     continue?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were relatively few cases

12     when prisoners were used in the zone of our barracks to build

13     fortifications.  They worked mostly on the maintenance of the barracks

14     and its structures.

15             Now, talking about KPD Kula, if you ask me to comment, I

16     understand that you may have the impression that I was aware of all this.

17     But I couldn't be aware of all this and I couldn't propose any measures.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And about the beatings, what did you do?  If someone

19     would beat a prisoner, you'd have no way of disciplinarily responding to

20     such a situation?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The brigade commander would do that

22     after receiving my report.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you write any reports, and this repeats my

24     previous question, about your people beating prisoners?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wrote reports to the commander

Page 26159

 1     about that.  I reported to him either orally at briefings or in writing.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 3             Then, Mr. Lukic, it might be important to retrieve such documents

 4     which would support the testimony of the witness.

 5             Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, Judge Moloto, did you have a

 7     question?  I didn't mean to --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was just pondering but -- the witness is

 9     changing from what he said a few minutes ago when I asked him questions,

10     he said to me he did discipline people and I then asked him whether he

11     had records of that.  And I also wanted to find out if those records

12     could be found.  Then he said they were all scattered all over.

13             Now, in response to Judge Orie, he now says he didn't discipline.

14     He only reported to his commander.  I find this to be inconsistent with

15     what he told -- how he answered my question.

16             Do you have any explanation for this inconsistency, Mr. Witness?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I said that disciplinary

18     measures were meted out, not that I did so myself.  I knew from the start

19     that I was not able to.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You think so, but I'm telling you, you didn't say

21     so.  You told me you took disciplinary measures.  And I asked you, did

22     you keep a record of the disciplinary measures that you took, and you

23     said to me they were scattered all over the show.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the disciplinary measure that

25     I took was proposing them to the commander or the competent person who

Page 26160

 1     would do that.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 9 in the

 4     B/C/S and page 12 in the English.

 5        Q.   Sir, on this page, we see two entries from 13 February 1993.  The

 6     first entry relates to a woman named Fatima Bajramovic who tried to

 7     escape by jumping through an upper-floor window, and she was apprehended

 8     near gate 1 and placed in solitary confinement.

 9             The second entry relates to a Mirela Granulov who was taken over

10     by Mr. Vasilje Vidovic pursuant by a request of the SRK command.

11             My first question:  Were you aware that females were being kept

12     in detention at the Kula facility?

13        A.   I must ask for your understanding.  You are showing me documents

14     or, rather, the notebook kept by the warden of Kula asking me to comment.

15     I did not know what was going on at Kula prison.  How could I know?  I

16     knew only some details that were pertinent to us.  How could I possibly

17     comment on this?

18        Q.   Sir, in your evidence, in your evidence in this case, you've

19     commented on things that happened great distances away from your

20     barracks, all the way over on the other side of the confrontation line,

21     more than 5 kilometres away from where you were at.  The reason I am

22     asking you this --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  The witness, in his statement, is dealing what was

Page 26161

 1     his job.  That was his task towards the end of --

 2             MR. WEBER:  Judge --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I'm objecting.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  If it's far away from -- that was his job.

 6             In relation to this document, witness mentioned several times

 7     that he did not have anything with Kula prison, that he did not anything

 8     especially [sic] with their log-books.

 9             So the distance where something happened is not the issue but

10     what was his task.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is granted.

13             Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  I'll rephrase then.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  To be -- you could be surprised that --

16     without giving you an opportunity to respond to that, but I can tell you

17     that when I consulted with Judge Moloto a minute ago before Mr. Lukic

18     raised his objection, I -- we discussed exactly the same matter, as a

19     matter of fact, and where I would have intervened otherwise

20     spontaneously.

21             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason why, unlike normal for objections,

23     I didn't give you an opportunity to respond.

24             But if you want to rephrase the question.  The bottom line is the

25     following:  The witness in his position could expected to have knowledge

Page 26162

 1     about matters that were related to Kula to the extent that they borrowed

 2     prisoners from there, et cetera, et cetera.

 3             Now, for a general knowledge on other matters about what happened

 4     in the Kula prison, you would have to lay a foundation to start with.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Sir, first of all, I'm asking you about these matters because

 8     they -- is it correct that they -- all these work sites relate to areas

 9     in the zone of responsibility in which you were commanding officer?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we continue --

11             Mr. Mladic, you will not speak aloud.  Let that be clear.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe my colleague Weber should mention which areas,

13     Since he just mentioned Vogosca.  And I think that could be -- create a

14     misunderstanding since Vogosca is not in the area of responsibility of

15     this gentleman.  I think.

16             MR. WEBER:  With the exception of the Vogosca, I appreciate that.

17             MR. LUKIC:  It's better to enumerate the sites than go with

18     exceptions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What you could do is, Mr. Weber, you could have a

20     look at the list at the workplace and, for example, the kitchen, I do not

21     know whether the kitchen was within or not.  I saw that as one of the

22     places.  So, therefore, it's -- you have to ask yourself what kitchen,

23     where?

24             Apparently, you're apparently linking this to the examples which

25     we find here on this page.  That link still has to be established as

Page 26163

 1     well.

 2             MR. WEBER:  I didn't mean to necessarily do that, Your Honours.

 3             I see we're at a break also.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we're at a break time.  And this allows you to

 5     further consider, Mr. Weber, where the boundaries are of what we could --

 6             MR. WEBER:  Actually, Your Honours, if I could tender the

 7     document and then I can move on to some other things.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  We would object to tendering this document through

10     this witness since obviously he has no knowledge about the document, nor

11     it is in connection with his statement.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's in connection to his testimony,

13     Mr. Lukic, and that's the test.  Not whether you included it in the

14     statement, yes or no, but he has been questioned about it in quite some

15     detail.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I agree.  But he has no knowledge about this log-book

17     really.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I do agree with that.  At the same time, for

19     admission of evidence, which is directly related to the subject matter of

20     the testimony of the witness, it's the -- this Chamber has often admitted

21     into evidence documents, whether you call it from the bar table or not,

22     but in a direct relation to the testimony of the witness.  Therefore, the

23     objection is denied.

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31298A receives number P6786, Your

Page 26164

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             We take a break.  Mr. Sarenac, we'd like to see you back in 20

 4     minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.25 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, just to assist while the witness is

11     coming in.  Actually, the Prosecution is going to go to one more entry in

12     P6786.  If we could go to page 22 of the B/C/S and page 29 of the

13     English.

14             And, Your Honours, I do acknowledge receipt of the urgent motion

15     that the Defence filed today relating to the addition of the documents to

16     the Defence 65 ter list.  I can respond to it at the end of the

17     examination, if that's okay.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you'd do so, that would be appreciated.

19                           [The witness takes the stand]

20             MR. WEBER:  Can I have the next page in the B/C/S.  I have it as

21     page 22.  Which I actually believe is page 23 in the B/C/S is what I'm

22     looking for.

23             Can I see the previous page in the B/C/S.  Maybe it's page 22.

24     There it is.

25        Q.   Mr. Sarenac, I wanted to go through one more entry with you in

Page 26165

 1     the notebooks.  I'm just waiting for it to come back.

 2             At the bottom of the page in the original version, it indicates

 3     that you brought a woman to the Kula prison on the 15th of October, 1993.

 4             MR. WEBER:  And I believe if we can turn to the next page in the

 5     B/C/S and we don't have the corresponding English on the screen.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Isn't that what we just went away from the

 7     English?

 8             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.  It was page 29 in the

 9     English.

10        Q.   And it also indicates that you, Captain 1st Class

11     Desimir Sarenac, brought this woman to the KPD Kula and at that same time

12     you brought another woman.

13             Sir, I'm going to pose to you again:  Is it correct that you were

14     aware that women were being kept at the Kula prison?

15        A.   Well, I cannot see that clearly, this content.  Where is that?

16        Q.   Sir, it was in the previous page in the B/C/S so if you need time

17     to look at it, let us know.

18             MR. WEBER:  If we could see the previous page.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If possible, yes.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   Do you see it towards the bottom of the page, starting with "Dana

22     15 X 93," the second one.

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I see.

24        Q.   Do you need to see --

25             MR. WEBER:  If we could have the next page for the witness, just

Page 26166

 1     to make sure he sees the whole entry.

 2        Q.   Sir, it continues on to the top.  Do you see that you also

 3     brought a second woman to the Kula KPD at the same time that you brought

 4     the first woman.

 5        A.   It says here that they were brought there.  And I see down here

 6     that a visit is being mentioned.  I don't know in what status they were

 7     brought there, to visit someone or something like that.  I --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I read to you what it reads there and then

 9     please, think about your answer and about the question before you

10     continue.

11             What you are referring to, and apparently you are trying to get a

12     quick impression to order to see whether that is relevant:

13             "The warden has approved a visit for prisoner of war, Goran

14     Bojic.  The visit was from his mother, Hasmeta Bojic."

15             So the women mentioned here have got nothing to do -- as the

16     document is taken at face value -- has got nothing to do with the women

17     you were asked about.

18             Please focus on the question whether you were aware that women

19     were detained.  And if it helps you, I can tell you that about

20     Amna Kovac, the document reads that she was taken into custody.

21             So stay away from your own possible explanations and your

22     suggestions that one of the persons may have been a visitor where the

23     document tells us that she was in custody and that the visitor was a

24     totally different person.

25             Now, would you please answer the question that was put to you by

Page 26167

 1     Mr. Weber.  And our patience is not unlimited.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this Amna Kovac, I remember

 3     that, for a while, she was staying at my barracks or guarded in my

 4     barracks.  A person with that name and surname was brought there to be in

 5     my barracks until her exchange.  So I made sure that she was kept there

 6     so that this Serb woman, Jovanka, would take care of her so that nothing

 7     unpleasant would happen to her.  Amra, or Amna, whatever her name is,

 8     Kovac was brought from Foca and --

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Witness, you are not answering the question.

10     The question is simple:  Are you aware that women were being kept in the

11     Kula detention unit?  Your answer is very simple.  Either you say yes, or

12     you say no, or you say you don't know.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, I don't know whether they

14     were.  But as for this Amna Kovac, I think I took her there for that

15     exchange, and probably this other woman was there with her.  So from my

16     barracks --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not being asked what for did you take her

18     there.  The question is:  You are aware that she was there.  You took her

19     there, didn't you?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think specifically, as far

21     as Ms. Kovac is concerned, I took her there for an exchange because they

22     brought her and she was supposed to stay there where I was.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You were not being asked for what purpose.  You

24     were being asked whether you took her there.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I took her.

Page 26168

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently you want to explain that in detail.  Was

 3     she exchanged?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was probably exchanged because

 5     she did not return after that --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking for conclusions.  Do you know?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where my function stops.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then, you may not know.  That's fine.  Then

 9     you tell us that you don't know.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know, yes.  I don't

11     know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  What was the reason why she was taken into

13     custody?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For some reason, she had been in

15     Foca until then.  They brought her there for this exchange, so that she

16     would wait for this exchange.  Why she wasn't in Kula -- at any rate,

17     they brought her to the barracks for some reason, and I made sure that

18     she had accommodation there and Jovanka was staying with her.  I remember

19     that name.  That was a young girl and --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Was she free to leave, to move out and not to be

21     exchanged?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't dare allow that.  This

23     was a cautionary measure.  While she was there, I can't remember how many

24     days, it wasn't a question of months, it was less than that.  I mean --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not talking about the length.  I'm talking about

Page 26169

 1     why she was in detention.  Whether she was free to leave, if she wanted

 2     to.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm saying now I did not

 4     detain her.  She was brought to me waiting for an exchange.  And then

 5     when they told me from Kula that I should take her out, that happened.

 6     And I had the obligation to protect her.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You detained her, or at least you were in charge of

 8     guarding her for the time she was with you when you brought her to Kula,

 9     isn't it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To take care of her, of course.  I

11     didn't have any other obligations or authority, as far as she was

12     concerned.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If she would have asked you, Could I just go where I

14     want to go and leave you, would that have been permitted?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was responsible for her and

16     I had to hand her over, just as she had been brought to me.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So she couldn't -- she couldn't move freely

18     out.  You would keep an eye on her so that she would stay with you until

19     you had delivered her in Kula.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not within my authority.

21     This was done by exchange commissions and so on, since it was not safe

22     for her to --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It was not safe for her, you say, to move around

24     freely.  It wasn't safe for anyone at that time to move around freely,

25     isn't it?

Page 26170

 1             I just want to put it clearly to you that this document clearly

 2     suggests that she is not free to move, that she is accompanied by you,

 3     that you deliver her at Kula prison where she's taken into custody which,

 4     in every day language, is called "detention."

 5             Any comment on that?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She was not with me.  She was in my

 7     facility.  She was guarded by the police.  I mean, I made sure that she

 8     was guarded, taken care of.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So where it reads "Captain 1st Class, Desimir

10     Sarenac, brought her ..." that is untrue.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's true, certainly, because

12     when they asked me to bring her there, then I did that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then she was with you.  If I bring a person

14     somewhere, and if that person is not free to move, that person is with

15     me, and upon arrival in Kula prison, apparently she was taken into

16     custody.

17             Let's -- Mr. Sarenac, it doesn't make -- if you say the document

18     is not forged, it's not a fraudulent document, let's face it, let's face

19     what the document says.  And I invite you to do that in relation to all

20     documents that are put to you to the extent you are able to do so.  If

21     you do not know something, tell us.  If you do know, tell us.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  I was just going to go through this last entry.  I

24     was going to move on to a different topic.

25        Q.   Sir, we're leaving this notebook right now, and I want to ask you

Page 26171

 1     about a different event.

 2             Is it correct that approximately 300 non-Serb detainees were

 3     bused to the Cica barracks from Hadzici on 22 June 1992?

 4        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 5        Q.   Is it correct that you were ordered to prepare space for them and

 6     secure them?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   Who did you receive this order from?

 9        A.   I received this order from the commander to prepare premises for

10     putting up so many people.  They brought them by bus, and I ensured their

11     safety and security so that they could be put into the facility where the

12     military was.  They were put upstairs and --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the answer is, "I received this order from

14     the commander."  Because the question was:  Who did you receive this

15     order from?

16             I know that you apparently feel a need to then give us a picture

17     about how well you cared for all these people and how responsible you

18     were, because that's the answer to every question, how well you were of

19     all those people which you said you looked after and where others say

20     were detained.

21             Please stick to the question.  You received the order from the

22     commander.

23             What's the next question, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Was this the commander of the brigade or the commander of the

Page 26172

 1     corps?

 2        A.   Most probably commander of the brigade.  It certainly wasn't the

 3     corps commander.  I know that I got the order from the commander.  Most

 4     probably it was the commander of the brigade.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What was his name?  What was his name?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't have that picture

 7     before me now.  Veljko Stojanovic was my brigade commander from the

 8     start; it probably was him.  I cannot say it was him or maybe his deputy.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Is it correct that these prisoners were kept in the dormitory at

11     the barracks?

12        A.   Correct.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31359 for

14     the witness.

15        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is a BiH MUP SDB statement from a male

16     who is a graduated jurist from Hadzici.  In this statement, this person

17     describes what happened during his time at the Cica barracks in June

18     1992.

19             I'd like you to focus on a part in the middle part of the

20     document where this individual states:

21             "On 22 June 1992, we, together with other 280 detainees, were

22     taken in the buses of TRZ Hadzici to Lukavica to the Slavisa Vajner Cica

23     barracks."

24             Then there's four names of individuals who drove the buses.

25             It then continues:

Page 26173

 1             "After being physically abused for almost three full days in the

 2     night of 24 to 25 June 1992, all prisoners, that means about 280 of us,

 3     were shoved into a dormitory and then a person unknown to me called the

 4     names of a number of prisoners (we later determined 48 men were called

 5     over) and they were taken somewhere."

 6             We see this individual then goes on to explain that the remaining

 7     prisoners were taken to Kula and he did not learn anything about what

 8     happened to the 48 men who were taken away.

 9             Is it correct that this is what happened to those individuals who

10     came from Hadzici?

11        A.   This is not correct.  I did not have any authority over this

12     group of people.  They came and I think that, as a matter of fact,

13     immediately on the following day - because we did not have the

14     opportunity to provide security for them there limitlessly because it was

15     right at the front line - they were taken away on buses, just as they had

16     been brought in.

17             As for this, no way.  No way.  That I know for sure.  No way.

18     That somebody from the barracks, Slavisa Vajner Cica, was singled out of

19     this group and taken away.

20        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that you're not providing truthful evidence,

21     that you're not providing truthful evidence about your responsibility as

22     the commander of this barracks and these events that are depicted before

23     us.  Do you have any other comments?

24        A.   Had this happened, I would have known about it, unless it

25     happened in some magical way without me knowing about it.

Page 26174

 1             I just know of this:  When my people put them up there, they

 2     searched them on their own, and they brought a few tuna cans and I made

 3     them return all of that to these people.  That was the only incident.

 4             As for all of this, no way.  I would have known.  I'm not an

 5     irresponsible person to claim something like this.  These are masses of

 6     people.  I would have known about it.  How could this have been done

 7     without me knowing about it?

 8        Q.   All right.  I've put my case to you so I'm going to move on.

 9             Is it correct -- to a different topic now.  Is it correct that

10     people who were leaving the city of Sarajevo told you that they had no

11     food or electricity and the living conditions inside the confrontation

12     lines were difficult?  If you could just please provide me with a yes or

13     no and then we'll look at some documents.

14        A.   I did not quite understand that question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That is because it's a compound question.

16             Mr. Weber, you can expect this.  Mr. Weber will rephrase the

17     question.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   Did people who were living in the city of Sarajevo tell you that

20     they faced poor living conditions inside the confrontation lines?

21        A.   Yes.  Those who were brought to us, yes, there were such things

22     that were stated.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31299 for

24     the witness.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What do you want to do with 31359?

Page 26175

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, we -- the Prosecution has led other

 2     evidence about this event, and I'd specifically refer the Chamber to

 3     P2225.  And, on that basis, since there's already information before the

 4     Chamber in relation to this event, I was not going to seek to tender it.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Sir, this is an explanation report you drafted on 16 December

 8     1992 related to an interview with someone you classified as a defector

 9     from the Muslim territory.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

11     versions.

12        Q.   On this page, it appears that you document the attempts of this

13     individual and others who were attempting to cross the runway and were

14     turned away by UNPROFOR.  On this page, the report also states the

15     following:

16             "On this attempt to cross the runway, two families were with him

17     who had two and three children respectively; for one of the families this

18     was their 13th attempt to cross the runway."

19             The next sentence states:

20             "Apart from the wish to rejoin his family, Ferid also explains

21     his exit with difficult living conditions in the city -- no food,

22     electricity, cold and so forth and that due to this, UNPROFOR is catching

23     from between 100 and up to 400 people every night at the airport

24     attempting to make it across whose sole objective is to leave Sarajevo."

25             Is it correct that this is the type of information you received?

Page 26176

 1        A.   Yes, of course it must be that way, otherwise why would it be

 2     written.

 3             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 31299 into

 4     evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31299 receives number P6787, Your

 7     Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution actually go to 65 ter 31292,

10     page 57.  It's the witness's previous Karadzic testimony.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm now going to change topics again and discuss the morale

12     of the forces opposing the SRK.  First I'm going to read to you what your

13     recorded testimony in the Karadzic case was.

14             During this testimony, you were asked:

15             "And whatever potential they might have had, Lieutenant-Colonel,

16     you knew, didn't you, that the morale amongst the 1st Corps forces was

17     low and continued to diminish as the war went on, their forces were dying

18     in large numbers, they had problems with -- and they had problems with

19     mass desertions; isn't that correct?"

20             You answered:  "Yes, such information was available, of course."

21             Do you stand by this testimony?

22        A.   Yes, it was of variable nature.  Sometimes more, sometimes less,

23     depending on the living conditions.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now please go to 65 ter 31300.

25        Q.   This is a 23 July 1993 1st SMBR security organ report from you

Page 26177

 1     based upon information you received from a defector.

 2             In the second paragraph, you state:

 3             "Information on the state of the enemy army's morale across the

 4     territory of Sarajevo where they have been stricken with panic following

 5     the latest successes of the Serb army, in particular, the fear and

 6     refusal to go out to Mt. Igman, which confirms our earlier information of

 7     people avoiding going out of Sarajevo at all cost."

 8             Do you see this information?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   What were the "latest successes of the Serb army" which you are

11     referring to?

12        A.   It's the linking up of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps with the

13     Herzegovina Corps to break this corridor towards Herzegovina, towards the

14     south and southeastern part.

15        Q.   I thought that might be what you're referring to.  Is it correct

16     that's Operation Lukavac 93?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

19     evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31300 receives number P6788, Your

22     Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31273 for

25     the witness.

Page 26178

 1        Q.   This is another 1st SMBR security organ report also drafted by

 2     you dated a few days earlier, 18 August -- or, actually, excuse me, dated

 3     actually later, 18 August 1993, based on information received from

 4     another defector.

 5             Looking at the third-to-last paragraph on the page, I believe in

 6     both versions, we see a reference to figures around 400 Muslim soldiers

 7     killed.  And then moving to the next paragraph, it reads:

 8             "It is widely known about the weapons and shortage of

 9     ammunitions.  It is important to mention that a considerable number of

10     weapons were lost when fleeing from Golo Brdo."

11             Do you see the references that I just mentioned?

12        A.   Yes, I see that.

13        Q.   Is it correct that you possessed information about a shortage of

14     weapons and of ammunition of the ABiH, that they faced these shortages?

15        A.   It is the statement of this Goran Jovicic who defected, and I

16     provided that report, although we couldn't be 100 per cent sure that it

17     was correct.  It was only his opinion.  That's why it was forwarded to

18     the analytics department in the corps command.  That's how he could see,

19     that's how he saw the situation at that moment.

20        Q.   Sir, most of the documents that you comment on as part of your

21     statement are similar to this.  They're statements by individuals of

22     things they told you when they came over the front lines.  Would your

23     comment that you just made about those statements being possibly not 100

24     per cent sure and they were forwarded to the corps command, would that

25     also apply to those other materials?  This wasn't checked information, I

Page 26179

 1     guess, to cut it short; right?

 2        A.   Some of the information had been checked; other aspects were not.

 3     They were collated in a certain place in order for conclusions to be

 4     drawn.

 5             MR. WEBER:  All right.  The Prosecution would tender this

 6     document into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31273 receives number P6789, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:  Let's try to go through one more document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question to you.

13             You said, Well, this is the opinion of Goran Jovicic, therefore,

14     whether true or not.  Now, especially on the issue raised by Mr. Weber,

15     that is the weapons and shortage of ammunition, there you do not say

16     Jovicic tells us, but you say it is widely known.  Therefore, if you say,

17     Well, I just passed on this opinion of Mr. Jovicic, at least the language

18     in this paragraph suggests otherwise:  That it is widely known.

19             Do you have any comment on this observation?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used to receive such reports.

21     And, generally speaking, it was known that they had a deficit, a shortage

22     of ammunition and weapons, relative to the number of men.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So, therefore, your earlier explanation when

24     asked about it whether this -- that you said, Well, it's just the

25     information of one person, it's -- it goes beyond that.  That's at least

Page 26180

 1     how I understand your answer.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly we had more

 3     information.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31302.

 6        Q.   Sir, this is a 1st SMBR Official Note dated 10 August 1993.  It

 7     also indicates it's drafted by you.  If we could look at the first

 8     sentence of the note, we see that it is based on information received

 9     from a Ms. Natasa Miskin.  In the next paragraph, we see that she was

10     employed in Juka's unit doing tasks such as serving meals, cleaning and

11     nursing.

12             Is it correct that the reference to Juka's unit is Juka Prazina?

13        A.   Natasa Miskin, a young girl who left together with the UNPROFOR

14     and provided that statement.

15        Q.   Sir, please focus on my question --

16             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry, Judge.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would you please listen to the question and

18     answer that question.  Of course she provided the information at least

19     that's reported.  The question was whether Juka's unit was Juka Prazina's

20     unit.  Is that how you understand this?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   If we look further down on the page at the last full paragraph of

Page 26181

 1     e-court page 1 in the English translation, and actually I think it is the

 2     first paragraph on e-court page 2 of the B/C/S.  I might be off on this.

 3             We read the following --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if the -- it's the end of page -- the

 5     layout perhaps is slightly different but it seems that the text is

 6     corresponding.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   We read the following:

 9             "This brigade does not go into action; not all of them have

10     rifles -- they only have between 30 and 35 rifles and there are 200 to

11     250 soldiers, including logistics."

12             Is it correct that this is the information you had about

13     Juka Prazina's unit?

14        A.   We received this information and we accepted it with a grain of

15     salt until further verification.  It was the way you see it written here

16     pending further checks.

17             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31302 receives number P6790, Your

21     Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. WEBER:  If I could ask just one more question based on what

24     the witness just said.

25             If we can have page 2 in both versions of the document.

Page 26182

 1        Q.   At the end of this page, the final paragraph says:

 2             "The information provided by Natasa Miskin can be considered on

 3     the whole to be reliable and are important for the identification of

 4     persons in units, therefore, in this sense the material is interesting

 5     for a follow-up."

 6             This was your assessment of this information that was provided to

 7     you; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, I provided that opinion.

 9             MR. WEBER:  I see it's break time, Your Honour.

10             I'm off on that?  Okay.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm afraid you are.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.  Is there any chance that

14     you would finish before the break because then you would have

15     approximately the two hours, which is more than the initially indicated

16     one and a half hours.

17             MR. WEBER:  I'm a little bit behind in time, but I can try to --

18     I will be slightly over time, Your Honours.  I'll try --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You are requesting whether you are allowed to go

20     over time?  I have no answer to that question yet, Mr. Weber.  Don't

21     expect automatically --

22             MR. WEBER:  I don't.  And I'm going to try to accommodate the

23     exact time provided by the Chamber.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you are at one hour, 43 or 44 minutes.

25             MR. WEBER:  If that's the case, I would be approximately two

Page 26183

 1     hours, which was my estimate.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  If I asked you whether there was any chance that you

 3     could finish by the break which would be 12 minutes from now.

 4             MR. WEBER:  I will --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you're missing three or four minutes, I'm

 6     aware of that.  But --

 7             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to come right close to my actual estimate

 8     of two hours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   I'm going to move on to a couple of questions related to

12     documents in your statement.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 1D03039.

14        Q.   Sir, this is another one of the Official Notes that you drafted.

15     This one -- actually, I see it's signed by a Djordje Kovac, and it's

16     associated to your statement.

17             According to your statement, paragraph 14, this document shows

18     that the members of the 1st Motorised Mountain Brigade of the ABiH were

19     also deployed to positions outside the city of Sarajevo.  But if we look

20     at the first sentence in the third full paragraph on page 3 in the

21     English, it states:  "The 1st Motorised Brigade has been decimated."

22             Reading on in the same paragraph, it says:

23             "Certain companies go to Igman every 15 days but because of the

24     shortage of men they rotate shifts every 3/3 days although the usual is

25     to rotate them every 3 to 6."

Page 26184

 1             Why did you not include any comments on this information as part

 2     of your statement?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Objection.  Objection.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which passage?  I don't understand

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, is the Prosecution now dictating us what

 8     should we include in the statements of our witnesses?  We included a

 9     document.  We never dictated the Prosecution what they should have in

10     their statements.  And it's not the witness who composed the statement.

11     I'm telling that from the beginning of this case.  It is the members of

12     the Defence.  If there is anybody to be blamed, it's us.  Not the

13     witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it very much depends on the

15     circumstances.  If, as you say, the Prosecution would blame you, then

16     they would have first to establish that you had received or not sought

17     the information the Prosecution considers appropriate to be included in a

18     statement.

19             Now, very often, you're perfectly right that if you put a

20     statement or a document to a witness and you ask certain questions about

21     it, then you would not, under all circumstances, expect a witness to go

22     through that document and then to raise all kind of other things.  To

23     that extent, you're perfectly right.

24             Sometimes it also happens that something that almost bangs into

25     your eyes if you read the document are ignored both by the ones who are

Page 26185

 1     questioning and the ones who are responding to the questions.  So it very

 2     much depends on the circumstances.

 3             I have at this moment, I invite --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  If I may add something else, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We wanted to include 130 documents --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- with this witness.  We knew it was not possible.

 9     We cut it to 22, 23.  And, of course, that we didn't cover everything he

10     knew.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but this was a document that was put to him,

12     isn't it?

13             MR. LUKIC:  It was the document that was put to him and what we

14     were interested with this witness, and it was obvious from his statement

15     is the kind of work he did observing the enemy positions, and which

16     positions did the enemy at that time in Sarajevo --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I was just about to ask Mr. Weber --

18             MR. LUKIC:  -- we do not know Mr. Weber or cross [Overlapping

19     speakers] ...

20             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Lukic, you're now

21     interrupting me, which I am not entirely happy with.

22             Mr. Weber, please think about it well because sometimes questions

23     are not asked, and I gave you a clear example of that sometimes it's

24     totally not understandable that a subject is not addressed by the

25     witness, whereas in other circumstance you can say, well, you could have

Page 26186

 1     said that you could have left it out, depending on what you were asked.

 2             Try to limit yourself to those where I said it bangs into your

 3     eyes if it's absent in the comment on a document.

 4             If that's the case, make that clear.  If it's not the case,

 5     perhaps you move on to your next question.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And before you do, if you could just guide me to

 7     where you were reading from the document, Mr. Weber.  I couldn't find it

 8     on the page that was on the screen at the time.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, on the page before you, it's the second

10     from the bottom paragraph.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Where we talk about [Overlapping

12     speakers] ...

13             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

14        Q.   Sir, in your statement, you are commenting upon the 1st Motorised

15     Brigade.  Do you consider that the information about them having a

16     shortage of men and rotating shifts to be important or relevant to the

17     assessment or strength of this brigade?

18        A.   I gathered all possible information about enemy forces, so I

19     included it here because it was not up to me to assess whether something

20     is relevant or not.  I put on paper the information that I received and,

21     at a later stage, the analysis department in the corps will find a proper

22     place for this piece of information.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's again not an answer to the question but let's

24     move on.

25             Mr. Weber, where exactly would you expected the witness to say

Page 26187

 1     something about this aspect?  Where do I have to look?  1st Motorised

 2     Brigade.

 3             MR. WEBER:  The comments that are on paragraph 14 of the

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  14.  One second.  Let's see whether something bangs

 6     into my eyes.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Actually, let me make sure I'm looking at the right

 8     statement.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's -- 14 is all about positions, not about

10     strength.

11             So, therefore, nothing bangs, at this moment, in my eyes.

12             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I was just noting because it also

14     discusses deployment.  So I will move on.  I take your -- the Chamber's

15     note on that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  It is focussing on perhaps deployment and positions

17     but not on strength as a separate issue.  Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Well, the document says what it does.

19        Q.   Just one last thing of something that comes up in relation to

20     your associated exhibits.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 1D3076.  And if we

22     could have page 3 in the English and page 2 in the B/C/S.

23        Q.   In paragraph 44 of your statement, you claim that Muslims shelled

24     their own hospitals at the time and the document that you referred to is

25     this document.

Page 26188

 1             As you can see, the document is highly illegible in parts and

 2     where I find this information in the document is on page 3 of the English

 3     translation at the top where we see that the person who is explaining

 4     this to you heard it from someone else, who is illegible, that Muslims

 5     shelled the hospital with five shells.

 6             Do you know the name of the person of this report whose name is

 7     also illegible or the person that -- who we see to be illegible that this

 8     person heard it from?

 9        A.   We would have to go back to the first page to see with whom the

10     interview was made, who provided this information.

11             MR. WEBER:  If we could have the first page.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we have the first page of the English too?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot make it out here.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, actually I have no further questions

15     after that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

17             Mr. Lukic, any assessment of how much time you would need after

18     the break?

19             MR. LUKIC:  I can say that after this many documents, I'm not

20     going through every single one, of course, but I will have quite a number

21     of questions.  I cannot give the estimate now.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this to say that do you think we would finish at

23     the end of today's session?

24             MR. LUKIC:  I really doubt that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, I would like to encourage you to do

Page 26189

 1     that.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I will encourage myself, too, to do it that way.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And don't forget, of course, that part of the

 4     lengthy time is also because the witness -- and you know the Chamber is

 5     not always very much in favour of sweeping statements in many respects

 6     needed to be confronted with material which the Defence was aware of, I

 7     take it, as well.  That causes part of the time consumption.

 8             We'll take the break.  The witness is invited to follow the

 9     usher.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be -- to enter the

15     courtroom.

16             I nevertheless would like to say a few words about the earlier --

17     whatever I could call it, a debate, although it's not really a debate,

18     the objection.

19             Mr. Lukic, the question put by Mr. Weber, why didn't you address,

20     the question itself is not objectionable.  The question in itself was

21     phrased in such a way that there could be no -- but I understood your

22     observations as an objection to the approach taken by Mr. Weber rather

23     than to the question itself.

24             Now, whether you can object against an approach is a different

25     matter but I said about it what I said.

Page 26190

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And I think that having added now that the question

 3     itself was not objectionable, then please keep in mind not to take an

 4     approach in which useless questions are asked and take an approach where

 5     at least it's always verified by the party itself that the question in

 6     that context makes sense to ask the witness.

 7             Mr. Lukic, any questions on re-examination?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  The answer is yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic will now put further questions to you,

10     Mr. Sarenac.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon, Mr. Sarenac.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we have P6779 in e-court.

15        Q.   Mr. Sarenac, you had this discussion not only with the Prosecutor

16     but also with Judge Moloto about what this meant, the accuracy being

17     confirmed, the accuracy of the copy.

18             We see 2nd Lieutenant Zeljko Bambarez typewritten but there is no

19     stamped there.  Actually, what kind of procedure is this that you carried

20     out?  Is this re-investigation or is this a mere copying of the document?

21        A.   It's mere copying of the document so that it could be used in

22     further procedures in this way.

23        Q.   Just a minute.

24        A.   The original statement of Zeljko Bambarez is attached to this.

25     That's what we usually did.

Page 26191

 1        Q.   So you did not conduct interviews or interrogations or not, did

 2     you interview Zeljko Bambarez once again?

 3        A.   It cannot be seen from this document but as for other moments,

 4     other cases, I don't remember.  But as soon as this was done, of course

 5     an investigation was carried out.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic, you referred before your question that

 7     this is something the witness discussed with me.  What you are asking

 8     doesn't arise from what I discussed with the witness.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think you asked him whether he knows

10     about the incidents.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, I didn't say so.  I asked him about the

12     accuracy of the document.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  After he had told me that the -- that that

15     sentence he interprets to mean that the document is authentic.  That was

16     his own words.

17             MR. LUKIC:  If it's all you were interested about, about the

18     authenticity of the document, then I will move on.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             Then the same goes to P6780 and P6781.  And I will not have

22     further questions on this issue.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That gives you more time for more questions.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Hopefully I will finish today

25     then.

Page 26192

 1             Then if we can have P6784, please, in the e-court.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sarenac, this document shows that the

 3     command of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade is asking for the involvement of

 4     forces and is sending this request to the KP Dom Kula administration,

 5     KP Dom Butmir.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did the commander inform you about what he had ordered or

 8     requested?

 9        A.   Of course it's not the commander's duty to notify me.

10        Q.   Just a minute, please.  We lawyers sometimes don't know what "of

11     course" means and what "naturally" means because we don't have the

12     professional knowledge in certain fields to know what is to be expected,

13     what is of course, what is a matter of course, et cetera.

14             So did they know -- did he inform you about that?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Did you have any authority over the prisoners in Kula?

17        A.   No, I did not.

18        Q.   Were you in charge of fortification work in your brigade?

19        A.   I was not in charge of work like that and I did not carry it out.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you approve the use of prisoners from Kula --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm going to stop you here.  It seems

22     that the responsibility of this witness for these events becomes the

23     focus where I think it should not be, I put it to the parties.

24             I think that there are two reasons why Mr. Weber raised the

25     issue.  First of all, where the witness stated that everyone was provided

Page 26193

 1     with the Geneva Conventions, and stopping there, and of course the

 2     statements suggest that they were read overnight and that they were

 3     obeyed to, that Mr. Weber wanted to test that evidence whether what was

 4     suggested by it was the case, not about whether this witness is

 5     responsible for that.  That's one.

 6             Second, I take it that Mr. Weber had, in the back of his mind,

 7     that establishing this - and, by the way, we've heard evidence on the

 8     matter before the use of prisoners from Kula, from elsewhere, at

 9     fortifications - that it doesn't harm the Prosecution's case to -- for

10     the Chamber to hear that again.

11             I think these are the two issues.

12             What now appears is that we are focussing on whether the witness

13     should have known -- he apparently -- he wasn't asked, it's not part of

14     his statement.  He was reluctant in the beginning to say that he had any

15     knowledge about it.  But the issue is not primarily whether this witness

16     is responsible for all this.  I think it's whether it's happened, in what

17     context it happened, whereas the witness here seems to be not the pivotal

18     role in the whole of the hierarchy.  And the second, to what extent the

19     statement given by this witness is incomplete to the extent that what is

20     suggested turns out to be not what is presented in the documentation.

21             These are the two issues.  And what I know see is we are

22     focussing on whether this witness is responsible, whether he heard it,

23     whether it passed through him, et cetera, which is - it seems to me - not

24     to be the core of the testimony of this witness and of the Prosecution's

25     case in this respect.

Page 26194

 1             Mr. Weber, I'm first seeking whether you would basically agree

 2     with me.  I'm not talking about details but ...

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, on the two points that you've noted, I

 4     believe you're correct.

 5             With respect to the fact that challenging the credibility of this

 6     witness, we did put to the witness his knowledge and involvement with

 7     respect to individuals that were taken from --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But was that to test the reliability and credibility

 9     of this witness, or was it because you wanted to establish that this

10     witness had primary responsibility for it or direct responsibility for

11     it?

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, based on the position of the witness in

13     the security organ and his awareness of it, we would say that he would

14     have some responsibility if he had awareness to take action about --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's -- it's not your focus, it's just his

16     role in the hierarchy, that's -- which makes him co-responsible for

17     things that happened.

18             MR. WEBER:  That's fair, Judge.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, let's try to focus on that rather than to

20     hear from the witness again what he feels he's not responsible for.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Well, I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  Yes, if you want to comment because

23     I --

24             MR. LUKIC:  I have no comments.  Only maybe I have to pursue this

25     issue after Mr. Weber's response to your question.

Page 26195

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then at least it's clear what the issues are.

 2     Let's then stick to those.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] So I've already asked you this, on behalf of

 6     your brigade, did you approve the use of prisoners?

 7        A.   No, I did not.  That was not within the scope of my work and that

 8     was not my obligation.

 9        Q.   Who was it that requested the use of prisoners on behalf of your

10     brigade?

11        A.   Well, the use of prisoners was usually requested, I mean, by

12     battalion commanders and that went through the brigade command.

13        Q.   Were you involved if there would be an incident, if the prisoners

14     would try to escape, if they would be shot at, beaten up, et cetera?

15        A.   No, I would never be involved.  Only if an incident would occur

16     then we would have to clarify the matter.

17        Q.   As security organ, were you involved in clarifying the situation?

18        A.   If that would happen, because each battalion has its own security

19     organ, then, yes, we would certainly do that.

20        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us know look at P6785 briefly,

22     please.

23        Q.   What we see before us is an Official Note dated the 10th of

24     April, 1994.  This is a report about these four men escaping.  Is this

25     one of these incident situations?  You've seen this document.

Page 26196

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, exactly.

 2        Q.   These people that are referred to here, and it is stated that

 3     they were working there where you were, were they detained in Kula or

 4     where you were?

 5        A.   May I just read this paragraph.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not know where the

 7     witness is reading from.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you know the answer to the question,

 9     tell us.  Reading the document, that's what we can do ourselves as well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  I just wish to -- may I

11     continue?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Answer now.

14        A.   After they finished working, they were taken to the KPD Kula.

15     However --

16        Q.   All right.  These people who carried out this work within your

17     barracks, were they in danger?  Is that the front line, the actual front

18     line?  What kind of work did they do?  Do you remember today?

19        A.   You'll see, this very old man, Vukotic, worked with them and --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One - one second.

21             Yes, Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:  Just objection, compound question and a couple of

23     them were leading.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and the proper basis for it.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I will rephrase it.

Page 26197

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So the question -- the first question will be:  what

 2     exactly was the work that they had done?  Where, when, and at what times.

 3     Otherwise we are seeking -- we can expect answers like the witness

 4     started already with that is since they were working with an old person,

 5     it must be, and let's try to avoid that.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I was more concerned about the time than about the --

 8     my questions.  I'll try to do my best.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Sarenac, what kind of jobs did these

10     people do?

11        A.   Vujo Vukotic worked around the barracks such as maintenance,

12     minor repairs.

13        Q.   Just a moment.  You told us what he did.  What did these people

14     do?

15        A.   Those people were on his team.

16        Q.   What were they doing?

17        A.   They prepared the material, they brought it, they had a

18     horse-drawn cart within the compound to transport material.

19        Q.   Do you know - just tell me if you know or not - whether those

20     people were brought there by force or they would, first of all, express

21     their wish to go out and work?

22        A.   I really couldn't answer that now.  Some jobs needed to be done,

23     and we needed manpower.  How they were selected, I don't know.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you said you couldn't answer the question.

25     I have one very simple question:  Those four men, where had they been

Page 26198

 1     working on that day, if you know.  If you don't know, tell us as well.

 2     No conclusions, just whether you know or not.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They worked within the compound.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Within what compound?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within the compound of the

 6     barracks.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the military detention facility within that

 8     compound?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the military detention

10     facility, a remand prison.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the compound?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the document reads that at the end of the

14     working day, the prisoners were taken to a military detention facility

15     for accommodation.

16             This strongly suggests that they were not in that detention

17     facility which you said was the compound but that they were outside.  Do

18     you have any comment on that?  And could you -- if you have, could you

19     please explain clearly the source of your knowledge.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says below they were not taken

21     to KPD Kula to save fuel; but instead, they were later placed within the

22     barracks called Cica.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's no answer to my question but it seems to

24     be an answer to a question you consider to be more important.

25             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

Page 26199

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know whether they enjoyed some benefits

 3     on account of working?  Did they get better food?  Did they spend more

 4     time outdoors?

 5        A.   Everybody received the same food, the troops, us, they, and they

 6     enjoyed the same benefits as we all did.

 7        Q.   Oh, yes, we were looking at a document, that book from Kula that

 8     we are not going to call up again because we've already discussed your

 9     role and your knowledge thereof.  But you were asked whether you had

10     undertaken some steps, and you said you proposed to the commander to

11     replace the military police commander.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   But you didn't mention any names.  A name would help us locate

14     that document, and Judge Orie said it would be helpful.

15        A.   The commander of that platoon was called Brane; I can't remember

16     his surname now.  But unfortunately, a couple of months after this

17     incident, he got killed, but there are records certainly about his

18     deployment and his service because he was dismissed and transferred to

19     another unit.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know what he had done that caused him to be

21     removed?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He allowed a person who was not

23     authorised to have access to prisoners to apply force to a prisoner.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

Page 26200

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You can't remember the name, can you?

 3        A.   I can only remember his first name.  But I know who I mean and

 4     you can check that.

 5        Q.   Was his full name Brane?  Or was it Branko or Branislav?

 6        A.   Brane.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I don't know if I noted it erroneously, but you

 8     seemed to have mentioned one more case when you proposed that a

 9     disciplinary procedure be instituted.

10        A.   I mentioned the case of Warrant Officer Bugarin, who was a

11     middle-aged man who had been there for quite a while.  He was a uniformed

12     serviceman, and he was involved in another case.  By negligence of the

13     policemen, he approached prisoners and assaulted them.  The commander

14     took disciplinary steps against him.

15        Q.   Is Bugarin his name?

16        A.   Yes, Milan Bugarin.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24             MR. LUKIC:  P6758.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 26201

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it's under seal.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Yes, that's what I was going to mention, Your Honour.

 3     And maybe the redaction of the reference on line 17 on this page.

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Not to be broadcast.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The redaction will be made.  Not to be broadcasted.

 6     Let's have it on our screens.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In this document, the Ministry of the Interior of Republika

 9     Srpska, it is said in the last-but-one paragraph that according to the

10     information available to UNHCR officers, the Muslims in the city have

11     stocks of over 2.500 tonnes of food from humanitarian aid which is not

12     being distributed to citizens.

13             Can you see that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you know anything about abuses of the humanitarian aid

16     arriving into the Muslim-controlled part of Sarajevo?

17        A.   We had information that this humanitarian aid is being --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I didn't raise UNHCR or humanitarian aid

20     convoys in this witness's information during my cross-examination.  I did

21     ask about living conditions inside the city so I kind of was patient with

22     this, but I believe the question now about humanitarian aid could cause

23     quite a new area that I did not explore during cross.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apart from being pretty leading, Mr. Lukic, on

25     the matter, the Chamber has received that evidence you are referring to.

Page 26202

 1     The witness was asked about whether he received information about the

 2     situation in the city.  The witness confirmed that and, therefore,

 3     whether there may have been stocks elsewhere is something the witness

 4     didn't tell us about.  You're leading very much in that direction.

 5             If the witness has some personal knowledge about it, he may tell

 6     us.

 7             Do you have any personal knowledge about stocks of humanitarian

 8     aid not being used?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, therefore, let's move on.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we then look at 6787 recently

12     used by my learned friend, Mr. Weber.

13        Q.   This morning, the Prosecution showed you this document.  At the

14     end of it, your name is typewritten, although there is no signature but

15     we don't object to that.  An interview was made with Ferid Jusuf.  He

16     explains in the sixth paragraph in B/C/S --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ferid Begic, I take it you are referring to

18     Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  That's B/C/S.  It's Ferid.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Begic.  Jusuf is the name of the father, if I --

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I said --

22             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... at least I --

23             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... -- I heard --

25             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... It's Ferid.  Ferid is

Page 26203

 1     first name.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ferid; Begic family name.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In the last paragraph in English, he explains that he received a

 7     certificate allowing him to leave Sarajevo, and the military unit that

 8     issued the document is cited.

 9             On the next page, and it's still the same page in B/C/S, and it

10     says that in Dobrinja, he reported to the police and from there he was

11     directed to the command of the armed forces in the immediate vicinity of

12     the airport.  At that command, his certificate was registered, and he was

13     told to cope as best he knows.

14        A.   Yes, I've read it.

15        Q.   In your work, did you gain any knowledge as to whether civilians

16     were able to leave Sarajevo in the zone under your services, observation?

17        A.   No.  Civilians did not have a free choice whether to leave

18     Sarajevo or not.  They managed in different ways.  Sometimes they had to

19     pay a fee in order to leave the city through some secret channels.  You

20     couldn't choose your place of residence, whether it would be in

21     Muslim-controlled Sarajevo or somewhere else.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask everybody's leave

24     and assistance if we could only stay five or six minutes longer to finish

25     with this witness.

Page 26204

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Weber may have some additional questions

 2     as well.

 3             Mr. Weber.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Right now, I don't.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Right now you don't.  Then I'm looking around, and I

 6     don't see anyone jumping up and started crying yet.  But I think that

 7     Mr. Lukic deserves some compassion and he receives it.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I won't go on too long.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             [Interpretation] Could we now look at P6788.  The B/C/S version

12     is already on the screen.  The English will soon follow.

13        Q.   It's about the interview conducted with Tihomir Vranic.  It says

14     a member of Muslim armed forces, a recruit of the 102nd Motorised

15     Brigade.

16             From the name, who would Tihomir Vranic be by ethnicity?

17        A.   A Serb.

18        Q.   Very well.

19        A.   He was forcibly mobilised into Muslim forces.

20        Q.   Just wait for the question, please.  Did you have reports that

21     Muslims forcibly mobilised Serbs who were left behind in the territory

22     they controlled?

23        A.   They forcibly mobilised all military-age able-bodied Serbs, and

24     they explained it through the official version of the state authorities

25     that everybody was a conscript if they were able-bodied, and our young

Page 26205

 1     men hid wherever they could, in basements, behind cupboards, anywhere.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we briefly look at P6790.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for that, Mr. Lukic, for the

 4     last issue, it was introduced for purpose of establishing morale, not on

 5     how people were recruited to become members of the ABiH forces so -- but

 6     let move on.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Well, Your Honour, the Prosecution also departed from

 8     the topics from the documents we introduced.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In re-examination, you are supposed to stay within

10     the limits of the cross-examination.  If you want to know what you can

11     raise in cross-examination, you can read Rule 90, what is it, (H), and

12     then you know that you're not limited to what it is.

13             Let's not discuss it.  It's a legal issue and --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and from your observation, I see that there may

16     be some misunderstanding about --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- this legal matter.  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P6790, please, let's take a look.

20        Q.   It's a document that says that Natasa Miskin was first in Juka 's

21     unit and then in the HVO and then she defected and came to Serb

22     territory.  Miskin, is that a Serb name?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is Natasa a Serb name?

25        A.   Yes.  I remember that girl very well when she came there.

Page 26206

 1        Q.   We see that at that time she was about 17 years old.  It says

 2     here that she and other girls were guarded.  Did she tell you whether she

 3     had been mobilised?  How was it that she came?

 4        A.   Well, I've stated that.  I wasn't sure that she was mobilised but

 5     she made a statement, a statement of her own saying that she had been

 6     there.

 7             MR. WEBER:  It just assists me in following along if Mr. Lukic

 8     could tell us where in the document he's referring to the -- to what

 9     information.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  To start with, the age of the informant being

11     17 years old.

12             MR. LUKIC:  He asked me that during the break.  I found the date.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Date of birth?

14             MR. WEBER:  Judge, searching around, I was able to find that in

15     footnote 1 which actually I believe the date --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  If the parties agree that this is there, then --

17             MR. WEBER:  She would be possibly 18.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And thank you to my

20     colleague.

21             Could we see 1D03039.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  03039.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Zeljko Vaskovic is the person interviewed here.

25     It says that they had to pay in order to leave.  He said to you here, and

Page 26207

 1     it's on page 2.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please have the next

 3     page.

 4        Q.   What was discussed was the morale of soldiers and the Prosecutor

 5     asked about that.

 6             Now, I would be interested in number one.  [In English] I don't

 7     know what kind of translation we have here.  It doesn't appear it's the

 8     same document in English version.

 9             To speed up things, I'll just read a portion of paragraph 3 in

10     B/C/S version.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] It says:

12             "Nane says that about 70 per cent of the soldiers are in favour

13     of having the war end and in favour of peace as opposed to fanatics,

14     mostly refugees from eastern Bosnia."

15             Did you have any information in your work that Muslim soldiers

16     were also in favour of ending the war and, in your view, according to the

17     information that you gathered, who kept extending that war?

18        A.   We had information as follows.  The local people of Sarajevo

19     wanted the war to end.  However, the people from Sandzak, who had come

20     from the area of Sandzak in Serbia, and who held prominent positions and

21     others who were like them, they did their best to have the war continue.

22        Q.   Thank you.  That was all that I had for you.  We stayed a bit

23     longer.  Thank you for having answered these questions.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I don't know whether we need

25     the witness to be present for this, for discussing the documents.

Page 26208

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We will not discuss anything at this moment,

 2     anymore, Mr. Lukic, let that be clear.

 3             Mr. Weber, any questions.

 4             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No questions from the Bench.

 6             This then concludes, Witness, your testimony.  I'd like to thank

 7     you very much for coming the long way to The Hague and for having

 8     answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the

 9     Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

10             You may now follow the usher.

11             Mr. Lukic, we'll deal with any administrative matters later.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             MR. LUKIC:  Only if it's because of the documents of this

15     witness, I don't know if --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, we have -- you asked for five to six minutes.

17     We've used 12 now.  That is 100 per cent penalty for those assisting us.

18     We leave it to that for the time being.

19             And I would, nevertheless, use at least two seconds in order to

20     thank all those who have facilitated of course not only Mr. Lukic but

21     also the Chamber to have a briefly extended session.

22             We adjourn for the day.  We will resume tomorrow, Thursday, the

23     25th of September, Courtroom I, 9.30 in the morning.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of

Page 26209

 1                           September, 2014 at 9.30 a.m.