Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26210

 1                           Thursday, 25 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Circumstances in relation to the application of Rule 15 bis are

12     unchanged, which means that we'll continue to hear this case by two

13     Judges; Judge Fluegge for urgent personal reasons unable to continue to

14     hear the case for the moment.

15             I can already inform the parties that the expectation is that

16     Judge Fluegge will be back with us next week, Tuesday.

17             No preliminaries?

18             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  Good morning.  We would

20     like to call Mr. Malcic, Stojan.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Mr. Malcic be escorted into the courtroom.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Malcic.  Before you give evidence,

24     the rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the text of which

25     is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that solemn

Page 26211

 1     declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

 3     the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  STOJAN MALCIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Malcic.

 7             Mr. Malcic, you will first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 8     him to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 9             Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

12        Q.   [No interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Malcic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I would just ask for the help from the usher, and I

15     would like to give clean statement to the witness so he has it in front

16     of him.  Would he be so kind and show it to the Prosecution first.  Thank

17     you.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, we need to make certain corrections

19     first in your statement.  First of all, for the record, would you please

20     say --

21             MR. LUKIC:  I'm getting signals that there is no sound in the

22     court reporter's headphones.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Shall we try again?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can everyone hear me now who needs to hear me.

25     Yes, it seems to be okay.  No one is crying or jumping up.

Page 26212

 1             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] I will try again in B/C/S to see if everyone is

 4     getting interpretation.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Still no translation, I can see.

 6             [Interpretation] Can we try again?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear the English booth now?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I could hear the English booth, yes.

 9                           [The Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think we need your help, if you could

11     speak a few words in B/C/S, then we can see whether it all works.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So, to test, the system again, are

13     you getting any interpretation?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We do, but the transcriber does not, as far as I can

15     see.

16             The problem apparently is that words spoken in English are

17     understood, but as soon as the English words come from the interpreter

18     booth interpreting what Mr. Lukic says, then it goes wrong.

19             We'll have to -- we'll wait for one or two minutes to see whether

20     it can be quickly resolved.  If not, we'll take a short break.

21                           [Technical difficulty]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The court reporter still doesn't hear the English

23     booth.  I must admit that for me also hearing my own voice through the

24     microphone comes a bit later than usual.  We'll take a short break and

25     see whether the matter can be resolved.

Page 26213

 1             Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

 2             We have a technical problem, Mr. Malcic, so we have to fix it

 3     first before we can continue.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a short break.  Everyone is invited to

 6     remain standby.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 9.47 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 9.53 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

10             Apparently the technical problems have been resolved, Mr. Lukic,

11     so whenever you talk in B/C/S then we'll be able to hear what you say.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The technical problems have been resolved,

14     Mr. Malcic; therefore, we can continue.

15             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, would you please state for the

18     record your name, your full name.

19        A.   Stojan Malcic.

20        Q.   Have you given a statement to the Defence team of Mr. Mladic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   We shall now go through certain corrections that need to be made.

23     There are several typographic errors.  Let us look at paragraph 12 -- [In

24     English] 2, sorry.  [Interpretation] Paragraph 2.

25             In this paragraph, it is said that you were retired on

Page 26214

 1     31st January 1997.  Which date is correct?

 2        A.   On 31st January 1997, I went on sick-leave, and I stopped with

 3     active military service on 31st August 1997.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Therefore, in paragraph 30, the last sentence

 5     containing the date is correct because paragraph 30 states that:  "This

 6     witness was retired on 31st August 1997."

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 8        Q.   Paragraph 17 of your statement.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, I didn't call this on our screens.  If we can

10     have 1D01717 on our screens, please.  And we need paragraph 17; it's

11     page 6.  [Interpretation] Only in the B/C/S version, it says:

12     "Approximately on 30th May 1992, I became a member of the VRS."

13             It's obvious that 1992 is the correct year, not 2992 as it is

14     stated in the Serbian version.

15             Then we need paragraph 1.

16        Q.   In paragraph 1, Mr. Malcic, in the English version your year of

17     birth is different.  Is the B/C/S version correct that you were born on

18     the 1st of February, 1948?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   So the English version that says you were born in 1942 needs to

21     be corrected.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Paragraph 6 is on the next page in

23     both versions.  Again, the two versions differ.  In the year when this

24     witness was released from prison, the B/C/S version is correct.  The year

25     is 1992 and in English, we read 1995.  But I will ask the witness.

Page 26215

 1        Q.   When were you released?  On the 13th of May which year?

 2        A.   I was exchanged on 13 May 1992.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In the same paragraph, before that 1992, it says:

 5             "I was arrested on the 3rd of May, 1992 and released on the 13th

 6     May 1992, which is not true."

 7             Oh, okay.  "My arrest occurred on the 6th."  Okay.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us go back to paragraph 17 again.

 9     That is the only real correction.

10        Q.   One word has been omitted.  It says:

11             "As part of this function, I was not a member of the Main Staff

12     of the Army of Republika Srpska but I did attend meetings of the

13     collegium."

14             The wording should be -- but I will ask the witness.  Were you a

15     member of the Main Staff?

16        A.   I was a member of the Main Staff but I was not a member of the

17     collegium of the Main Staff.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will then read the proper wording

19     of this passage in paragraph 17.

20             "[In English]:  The function I performed did not make me a member

21     of the collegium of the Main Staff of the VRS, but I attended their

22     collegiums in cases when the Main Staff decided on the matters concerning

23     the status of professional officers."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that the new wording?  But the witness said the

25     other thing a minute ago.  "I was a member of the Main Staff but I was

Page 26216

 1     not a member of the collegium of the Main Staff."

 2             Now you say:  "The function I performed did not make me a member

 3     of the collegium of the Main Staff."

 4             Yes.  Okay.  Fine.  Yes.  No, I missed it.  Apologies for that.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Mr. Malcic, let us look at the first page of this statement

 7     again.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [In English] If we can see the cover page, please, the

 9     first page.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Malcic, you have it in hard copy and

11     also on the screen before you.  Do you see the signature?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you recognise it?

14        A.   This is my signature.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And let us look at the last page.

16        Q.   Can you see the signature there?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you recognise it?

19        A.   Yes, that is my signature too.

20        Q.   After these corrections, do you believe the statement you gave to

21     the Defence team of General Mladic to be correct and truthful?

22        A.   This statement is correct and truthful.

23        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions that I and my

24     investigators asked you before, would you give the same answers?

25        A.   Yes, I would give exactly the same answers, perhaps in even more

Page 26217

 1     detail.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We should now like to tender the

 4     statement of Mr. Malcic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1717 receives number D656, Your

 7     Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D656 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             I will now read the short summary of this witness's statement.

12             [In English] Stojan Malcic was active officer serving in garrison

13     Sarajevo from 1971 until the 3rd May of 1992 when he was arrested by the

14     Muslim police in Sarajevo.  After his release from prison on 13th of May,

15     1992, he went to the Serb territory.  The torture he suffered in prison

16     has left him with permanent health injuries.  He was retired on 31st

17     January 1997.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  31st August.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, exactly.  I have the same mistake.  Thank you,

20     Your Honour.

21             THE WITNESS:  August.

22             MR. LUKIC:  He was retired -- the witness intervened as well.  He

23     was retired in August 31st, 1997.

24             In May 1992, an order was issued that all JNA units should return

25     to Serbia, except for the officers and soldiers born in B and H.  They

Page 26218

 1     were ordered to stay in B and H.

 2             After the formation of VRS, it continued to apply all rules and

 3     laws of JNA.  On 30th of May, 1992, the Main Staff VRS assumed the

 4     office, followed by the Order from 16th of June, 1992.

 5             Malcic's duty, among others, was to deal with the salaries of the

 6     active officers, but not with the salaries of the reserve officers and

 7     soldiers who were paid by the RS or municipal authorities.

 8             Malcic states that the documents concerning the status of the

 9     former JNA officers show that their stay in B and H was voluntary and

10     they were given the possibility to choose.  The aim of the named order

11     was to protect the officers at the given period.  His office did not

12     receive this document.

13             At that time, there was a growing distrust among reserve officers

14     of different ethnicities.  Also, the distrust of Serb officers was

15     evident.  They were called "commies," and the distrust culminated at the

16     time of the JNA withdrawal into Serbia.

17             The first information about the Srebrenica events in 1995 he

18     received from the media.  He will testify that all military operations

19     were carried out in accordance with the rules, and that he never heard

20     that General Mladic ordered killings of civilians or prisoners of war.

21             And this concludes short statement summary.  I do not have

22     questions for this witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that we can move on.  However, one

24     thing, Mr. Lukic, in your summary, you say it, and I also see it in the

25     statement, "I hereby state that all the fights led by the VRS were

Page 26219

 1     conducted in accordance to international rules.  I hope that you are

 2     aware that this the kind of sweeping statements which do not, in any way,

 3     assist the Chamber.  I hope that you are aware of that.  It's just --

 4     well, I will not further say anything.  Basis of knowledge, it's almost

 5     impossible to know so it would need a huge explanation, but I take it

 6     that it's just opinion.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It is just the opinion since this gentleman was never

 8     in the field --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. LUKIC:  -- fighting.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So he can state whatever he wants but he has no

12     knowledge, and witnesses are here to tell us about their knowledge.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But he was --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- not about their opinions.

15             MR. LUKIC:  But he was in the Main Staff.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But even then, Mr. Lukic, take yourself

17     seriously, this is when I refer to sweeping statements now and then.

18     This is a beautiful example of a totally useless sweeping statement.

19             I'm only talking about this line.

20             Please proceed.

21             Witness, I gave some comments as you may have heard on your

22     statement, especially where it reads that you state that "all the fights

23     led by the VRS were conducted in accordance with international rules,"

24     which is not easy for us to understand how such a broad, thorough,

25     complete knowledge would be with you.

Page 26220

 1             You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Jeremy.  You'll find him to

 2     your right.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for the Prosecution.

 3             Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.  Good morning, Your Honours.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

 6        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Malcic.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, as a personnel officer in the Main Staff of the

 9     VRS, part of your responsibilities included the filing of performance

10     appraisals of generals in the VRS; yes?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could Mr. Mladic reduce the volume of his voice so

12     that it doesn't disturb the examination of the witness.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. JEREMY:

15        Q.   Mr. Malcic, did you get my question or shall I repeat it for you?

16        A.   Yes.  I think I understood the question.

17             Yes, among other things, it was my responsibility to provide

18     official performance appraisals for military officers, with the exception

19     of generals, in personnel files.  That was done for generals by my

20     superior, Petar --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name.

22             MR. JEREMY:

23        Q.   Mr. Malcic, you mentioned your superior, and we got the first

24     name Petar and the interpreters were not able to catch the second name.

25     Could you repeat that, please.

Page 26221

 1        A.   Petar Skrbic.

 2        Q.   Okay.  So it's correct that you are -- you were familiar with the

 3     format of these performance appraisals; yes?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And it's correct that officers were regularly assessed every four

 6     years; is that right?

 7        A.   According to the rule book on appraisals, regular assessments are

 8     made every four years and, if necessary, they can be provided more often

 9     within one year from the previous official assessment.

10        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to show you a few of these performance

11     appraisals.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P2631 in e-court.

13        Q.   Mr. Malcic, coming up on the screen before you is the performance

14     appraisal for Radoslav Krstic.  Now, if I can focus your attention on the

15     top right side of the -- of this document, we see that the date of the

16     appraisal is the 6th of November, 1995.  Do you see that?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to the last page, please, in each

19     document.

20        Q.   Mr. Malcic, we see on this last page the name of General Krstic

21     on the left side and a signature below it and the name of General Mladic

22     on the right side and his signature below that.  Do you see that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So this is an appraisal for General Krstic that's being carried

25     out by General Mladic; yes?

Page 26222

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go back to the first page, please.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, below the date on the top right side of the

 4     screen, we see an evaluation period of 6 November 1991 to 6 November

 5     1995.  Now, is this an example of a regular assessment?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please go to the second page in each

 8     document.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, I would like to focus your attention on the

10     fifth sentence in this section, in this description and conclusion.  It

11     begins with the words:  "As the commander of the Drina Corps, he planned,

12     organised, and commanded the ..."

13             MR. JEREMY:  And can we go to the next page just in the English,

14     please.

15        Q.   " ... operations for the liberation of Srebrenica and Zepa with

16     great success, which he carried out brilliantly, despite the fact the

17     NATO Air Forces were directly protecting the Muslim formations."

18             Going to the last sentence in this paragraph, we read:

19             "According to all the contributions he made in the course of his

20     career, and especially during the war, General Krstic is one of the most

21     successful and most promising generals of the Serbian people."

22             And we see below that that he is graded excellent.

23             Now, Mr. Malcic, in terms of the actual appraisal process, would

24     General Mladic's comments on General Krstic's actions in Srebrenica be

25     based solely on his firsthand experience of what he could see and observe

Page 26223

 1     of General Krstic in Srebrenica, or would you expect him to also solicit

 2     input from General Krstic's fellow officers who are also present there

 3     during those days in July 1995?

 4        A.   I said a moment ago that I kept records, that is to say,

 5     personnel files, of military officers up to the rank of colonel.  Above

 6     that, these records and files were kept by my superior.  The assessment

 7     consists of a descriptive part and a numerical part containing grades,

 8     that is, the system of grading the military officers of the JNA, which we

 9     also used in the Army of Republika Srpska because our own rule book had

10     not been adopted yet.

11             I cannot answer your question because I took no part in the

12     writing of this assessment, and I do not know on what basis

13     General Mladic provided this descriptive assessment.

14        Q.   In terms of the format of this particular appraisal, is it in the

15     same format as the appraisals that you did handle from the level of

16     colonel downwards?

17        A.   It is the same prescribed format in which official appraisals

18     were written for all military officers and generals in the JNA and that

19     format we took over in the Army of Republika Srpska and applied it.

20        Q.   And would you expect the process, the appraisal process, to be

21     the same for generals as it was for colonels downwards, the appraisals

22     that you actually dealt with?

23        A.   The answers to the questions contained in this form are exactly

24     the same.  It only depends on the superior officer how he will write and

25     how he will fill in the form.  Of course, the first page were official

Page 26224

 1     personnel details were filled in by my superior for generals, and it was

 2     signed off by the personnel officer of the unit in which the officer

 3     served.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  One moment, Your Honours.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Okay.  I'd like to take to look at another appraisal

 7     in the same format as the one that we've just looked at.  Could we please

 8     see P5023 -- forgive me, P5023.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, coming up on the screen before you is the

10     appraisal of Dragomir Milosevic.  Now, again, looking at the top right of

11     the screen, we see the date of the assessment is the 8th of June, 1992.

12             MR. JEREMY:  If we can please go to the last page.

13        Q.   And we see that it's been signed by General Mladic and

14     General Milosevic.

15             So, Mr. Malcic, this is an appraisal of Dragomir Milosevic by

16     General Mladic; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go back one page in the English, please.

19        Q.   Again, I'd like to take a look at some of the comments in this

20     descriptive assessment and conclusion.

21             Could we go down the page in the English a little bit, please.

22     Sorry -- so I can see the bottom of the page in the English, please.

23        Q.   Mr. Malcic, we read:

24             "He contributed greatly to stabilising the Sarajevo Romanija

25     Corps which has grown under his command into a very effective operational

Page 26225

 1     formation and has demonstrated its strength and power by smashing many

 2     Muslim offensives towards Sarajevo, particularly in the last Muslim-NATO

 3     offensive which ended in the total defeat of the enemy which gave up

 4     pursuing their goals as a result of the enormous casualties.  He has

 5     carried out all tasks skillfully and professionally, with ..."

 6             MR. JEREMY:  If we can go over the page, please.

 7        Q.   " ... great self-sacrifice and personal renunciation."

 8             And, again, we see that his performance is assessed as excellent.

 9             Now, Mr. Malcic, I mentioned that -- and we saw that the date of

10     this assessment is the 8th of June, 1992, yet we see the date at the end

11     is the 30th of October, 1995, and the assessment clearly covers the

12     period when General Milosevic was commander of the Sarajevo Romanija

13     Corps during 1994 and 1995.

14             Now, as a personnel officer in the Main Staff, can you explain

15     why the appraisal is dated 1992 but, in fact, covers a period up to

16     October 1995?

17        A.   I am not aware of that because I did not take part in writing

18     this assessment in any way.  I did not give my opinion or proposal.  I

19     told you how things are written up for generals.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

21     speak into the microphone.  We can barely understand him now.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness, could you speak more in the

23     microphone - we'll try to adjust it - because the interpreters have

24     difficulties in hearing you.

25             MR. JEREMY:

Page 26226

 1        Q.   Okay, Mr. Malcic.  I understand that you were not privy to the

 2     content of this particular appraisal, or the last one, but I thought you

 3     might be able to help me with the actual process but it sounds as though

 4     you can't on this particular issue, so I will leave it there.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I think we're at break time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We are, Mr. Jeremy.

 7             I'm just looking exactly at that point that's the cover page

 8     where the date range is expressed 8th of June, 1988 to 8th of June 1992.

 9     In the translation, I see 20th of July, 1992.  I have some difficulties

10     in finding that but perhaps I should zoom out a bit.

11             MR. JEREMY:  No, I think you're right, Your Honour.  It actually

12     in the translation, it's -- it is 20 July 1992.  It's in evidence but it

13     would need a correction.  With your leave, I'll arrange for that to be

14     done.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a correction to what?

16             MR. JEREMY:  To the translation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Meaning that it now would be again the 8th of June

18     or ...

19             MR. JEREMY:  It would be the 8th of June, 1992.  So the 20 July

20     reference should removed.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Should be taken out.  I don't remember whether we

22     discussed that before.  Did we?

23             Whatever is the case, if you are aware that there is a mistake,

24     and if especially the range, the time range for the assessment is

25     relevant, then take care that we have a proper translation.  Apparently

Page 26227

 1     you were aware because you gave immediately an explanation that it still

 2     had to be done and -- okay, it's not dramatic at this moment.  There

 3     seems to be a problem anyhow.  The witness can't help us.  But please try

 4     to do it more precise and accurate next time.

 5             After the witness has left the courtroom, we'll take a break.

 6             Mr. Jeremy, could you tell us how much time you'd still need.

 7     Also in view of -- this seems to be unrelated to the subject matter

 8     of ...

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I estimated an hour.  I'll stick to

10     that estimate.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My next question was whether it's true that it

12     is relatively unrelated to what is found in the statement.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, Mr. Malcic was a personnel officer in

15     the Main Staff.  He testified in the Karadzic case in relation to a

16     number of these appraisals.  He seems the most appropriate person to

17     discuss the appraisals that we have in evidence with.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.  At the same time, time is granted

19     to the Prosecution to cross-examine the witness, that is, primarily to

20     test the evidence of the witness and to test it.  And, of course, I know

21     that the Rule 90(H) some room is left for asking the witness about

22     matters which are relevant for the Prosecution's case; but whether a

23     similar amount of time should be granted to that and whether that would

24     not, to some extent, be an extension of the time spent of the Prosecution

25     to present its case is a matter to be seriously reviewed.

Page 26228

 1             MR. JEREMY:  I take your point, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break and we'll resume at five

 3     minutes to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9        Q.   Mr. Malcic, in your statement, from paragraph 18 onwards, you

10     discuss the departure of non-Serbs from the VRS, and I'd like to show you

11     a document in connection with that.

12             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P3892.

13        Q.   Mr. Malcic, we see that this document on the screen before us is

14     a report from the 1st Krajina Corps.  It's dated the 9th of June, 1992.

15             If we look at the bottom of the page, we see that it is signed by

16     Colonel Milutin Vukelic.  He was the assistant commander for morale and

17     religious affairs in the 1st Krajina Corps; yes?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, the report is titled:  "Report on the Autonomous Region

20     Krajina Crisis Staff decision," and we see that it is sent to the Main

21     Staff and also the SR BH Presidency.  You see it has operational

22     confidential number 488-3.

23             Do you see that?

24        A.   I do.

25        Q.   Now, in the first paragraph we read:

Page 26229

 1             "One of the issues that was discussed at yesterday's session of

 2     AR Bosnian Krajina Crisis Staff was the personnel -- was the general

 3     personnel policy in the Army 1st Krajina Corps."

 4             Now, in the next paragraph we read that:

 5             "Within units of the 1st Krajina Corps, there are 67 officers of

 6     Muslim or Croatian nationality."

 7             In the next sentence, we see reference to an ultimatum requesting

 8     removal of such persons from vital command posts by the 15th of June,

 9     1992.

10             Now, a few sentences on from there, we read:

11             "Such action would also significantly weaken the above-named

12     units from which it has been requested that staff be purged."

13             Mr. Malcic, do you see that?

14        A.   I do.

15        Q.   Now, a sentence on, we read:

16             "The 1st Krajina Corps command should make the decision as to

17     which staff members from the ranks of Muslims and Croats may still be

18     temporarily kept and at which posts."

19             And lastly we read:  "It would also be essential to take a

20     position on what should be done with those who have not demonstrated any

21     hostile activity so far, but who must be removed from key posts."

22             Mr. Malcic, this is a personnel problem that the 1st Krajina

23     Corps are asking the Main Staff to address.  Now, were you aware of this

24     purging process that is being contemplated here?

25        A.   This is the first time I see this document.  It did not pass

Page 26230

 1     through my office.  It is addressed to the Main Staff here of the Army of

 2     the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, I know another

 3     document that followed as an answer.  Now I see that it's an answer to

 4     this.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether you were aware of

 6     this process as described here.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. JEREMY:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, you've referred to a document that you are aware

11     of that you say was a response to this particular document, and I'd like

12     to take a look at that.

13             MR. JEREMY:  Could we see please see P3893.

14        Q.   Now, this is an order from General Mladic to the command of the

15     1st Krajina Corps, and you discuss this document in your statement from

16     paragraph 18 onwards.  We see that it is dated the 9th of June, 1992, so

17     the same date as the report that we just looked at, and we see the

18     strictly confidential number 488-3 is a reference to the number in the

19     report that we just looked at.

20             Do you see that, Mr. Malcic?

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   Now, we see the teletype signature of General Mladic at the

23     bottom of the page, and after his name we see the abbreviation SR.  That

24     means that this order was issued by General Mladic personally; correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 26231

 1        Q.   In the text of the document we read:

 2             "Officers of Muslim or Croatian nationality must be sent on leave

 3     immediately.  Take action at once to refer them to the Army of the

 4     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in order to resolve their status in the

 5     service."

 6             Mr. Malcic, faced with the problem of what to do with non-Serbs

 7     in the 1st Krajina Corps, General Mladic's immediate response was to send

 8     them on leave immediately.  This is an example of decisive command being

 9     exercised by General Mladic; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, in the top left corner of this document, we read:  "For

12     Colonel Rankovic."  Now, that's a reference to Colonel Miroslav Rankovic;

13     yes?

14        A.   I cannot remember the first name, but I do know Colonel Rankovic

15     personally.

16        Q.   And he was the chief of the personnel sector in the 1st Krajina

17     Corps; yes?

18        A.   He was chief of the organ --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can barely hear the

20     witness.  Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone again.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you come closer to the microphone, Witness.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Colonel Rankovic was chief of the

23     organ for organisational, mobilisational and personnel affairs in the

24     command of the 1st Krajina Corps.

25             MR. JEREMY:

Page 26232

 1        Q.   So he dealt with personnel issues; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now, in the top left of this document, we see the strictly

 4     confidential number 28/4.  Now, that number relates to the personnel

 5     department in the Main Staff; yes?

 6        A.   That I do not know.  I don't know whose number that is.  I cannot

 7     remember.  I don't know.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let's take a look at another document and see if I can

 9     refresh your memory about this number.

10             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see 65 ter 31367.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain this document?

12     Because I took part in the realisation of this document.

13             MR. JEREMY:

14        Q.   Firstly we'll look at a different document, Mr. Malcic.

15             Now, this document is dated the 25th of August, 1992, and we see

16     your name at the bottom of the document.

17             In the top left corner, we see the strictly confidential number

18     28/4.  Mr. Malcic, does this refresh your recollection that this number,

19     in fact, related to your personnel department?

20        A.   Every year we got special numbers for registering documents in

21     our personnel department.  I cannot remember now whether that's the

22     number.  Probably it is.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Can we go back to P3893, please.

25        Q.   While that is being brought back on the screen, Mr. Malcic, and

Page 26233

 1     that's the document that the 9 June order that we just looked at, in

 2     paragraph 20 of your statement, you say that this order did not pass

 3     through your office.

 4             Now, you now believe that the 28/4 number might relate, probably

 5     did relate, to your personnel department in the Main Staff.  You said

 6     that Colonel Rankovic dealt with personnel issues in the 1st Krajina

 7     Corps, yet do you still say that this document did not pass through your

 8     office?

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In fairness to the witness, Mr. Jeremy, just

10     before you moved over to the other document to refresh his memory about

11     that number, the witness said:  "Can I explain this document?"  I had

12     something to do with its making, something to that effect.  Which I

13     accept would contradict his prior statement that the document didn't pass

14     through but he does seem to recollect that he had something to do with

15     it.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Malcic told us in regard of P3892 that he -- that

19     one did not go through his office.  In regard of P3893, he said that he

20     actually dealt with realisation of that document.  So those are two

21     documents.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what I just said.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

24             MR. JEREMY:

25        Q.   Mr. Malcic, can I refer your --

Page 26234

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Can we have on the screen D656, please; that's the

 2     statement of the witness.  Can we go to page 6, please.

 3        Q.   Paragraph 18, we see the reference to P3893 and you begin to

 4     discuss that in paragraph 18 and paragraph 19.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Could we go to the next page, please, paragraph 20.

 6     Second sentence.

 7        Q.   "This document did not pass through my office but I did know

 8     about it."

 9             So, Mr. Malcic, do I understand your evidence that, in fact, this

10     document did pass through your office after all?

11        A.   I said a moment ago that I could explain this document, how it

12     fared, and I wanted things to be as clear as possible.  I do not

13     remember --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  First, please answer the question.  Then, apart from

15     the extensive explanation you've given already about the document in your

16     statement, but first, did it pass through your office; yes or no?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my office, I had a clerk who

18     would log or register all the documents that left my office and that came

19     to my office.  At that moment, I was not familiar with this document.  At

20     that time, I did not --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking you whether you were familiar with

22     it.  It can pass your office even without you knowing it.

23             The question simply is:  Did it pass through your office; yes or

24     no?

25             Next question is whether you saw it, whether you were aware of

Page 26235

 1     it, whatever may be the case.

 2             Did it pass through your office?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  On the basis of

 4     this number, I cannot state exactly that it had passed through my office.

 5     Perhaps it was registered in a different way and --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'm not asking about registration.

 7             So you say you do not know whether it passed through your office,

 8     meaning that it may have passed through your office or may not have

 9     passed through your office, you can't tell us.  That's how I understand

10     your answer; yes?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  In your statement, you say "This document did not

13     pass through my office."  But you knew about it.

14             So, therefore, that is a mistake.  Let's leave it to that.  You

15     do not know whether it passed through your office.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot understand or

17     hear the witness.  Too many microphones are on at the same time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll switch off my microphone.  Could you please

19     repeat your answer.

20             Could the microphone be adjusted so as to be better oriented

21     towards the witness.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember.  I do not know

23     that this document passed through my office.  I either was not in office

24     at the time or -- but, anyway, later, a few days later, I came across

25     this document, and I fully familiarised myself with it, and I know how we

Page 26236

 1     acted upon it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then listen now, having now corrected your

 3     statement in this respect, listen carefully to the questions Mr. Jeremy

 4     will put to you.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, you provide an extensive explanation of this

 7     document in your statement, and I don't wish to go back into that in

 8     great detail.  But I would like to focus on something you say in

 9     paragraph 19 where you describe it as a great favour and privilege.

10             Now, if you were a Muslim or Croat officer in the 1st Krajina

11     Corps, how is it a great favour and privilege to be discriminated and

12     purged from the 1st Krajina Corps?

13        A.   They were not being purged from the 1st Krajina Corps, they did

14     not leave until the end of May with the Army of Yugoslavia -- I mean,

15     into the Army of Yugoslavia in Serbia.  They stayed in this army.  They

16     were supposed to be established.  When we started establishing the Army

17     of Republika Srpska, until then, they were members of the JNA.  And now,

18     certain individuals wavered.  They wanted to go to Yugoslavia after they

19     heard this information that they heard from the Crisis Staff that they

20     were not desirable in that army.  Many active-duty officers, Croats and

21     Muslims, paid no heed to these conclusions of the Crisis Staff.  They

22     simply stayed on in their units.

23        Q.   Okay.  You say they were not being purged from the 1st Krajina

24     Corps, and I'd like to look at a report issued by the 1st Krajina Corps

25     four days after this --

Page 26237

 1        A.   Do allow me to finish.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you've answered the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Listen to the next question, Witness.  At the end of

 5     your statement, you may add --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not answer the question.  He

 7     put a concrete question to me, and I did not answer it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You were --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked a question.  Your answer is nine

11     lines.  We consider that question to have been answered.  If there's

12     anything you'd like to add at the end of your testimony, you have an

13     opportunity to do so, but please now focus on the next question that

14     Mr. Jeremy puts to you.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Mr. Malcic, part of your last answer was that they were not being

17     purged from the 1st Krajina Corps.  Now, I would like to show you a

18     report from the 1st Krajina Corps four days after General Mladic's order.

19             MR. JEREMY:  Could we please see P00217 on our screens.

20             Now, this is a report from the 1st Krajina Corps.  If we go to

21     the bottom of the page, the last page, we see that it's signed by

22     General Talic.  While we're still on the first page, we see it's

23     addressed to the Main Staff.  In fact, it's signed on behalf of

24     General Talic.  We see his type-signed signature there.

25             Could we go back to the first page, please.

Page 26238

 1        Q.   Mr. Malcic, this is a regular combat report.  It follows the

 2     usual formulation.  In the first paragraph, we see comments relating to

 3     the enemy.  In the second paragraph, comments relating to the state of

 4     combat readiness.

 5             MR. JEREMY:  I'd like to focus on paragraph 6, state of combat

 6     morale, and that's on the next page, please.  In fact, page 2 in the

 7     English and page 5 in the B/C/S.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   In the third sentence of paragraph 6, we read:

 9             "The purging of officers on an ethnic basis remains a topic of

10     discussion because of the danger that it may very soon result in

11     deficiencies in the units but it is proceeding in the spirit of the order

12     received."

13             Mr. Malcic, it's very clear here that General Mladic's order was

14     very clearly understood as meaning the purging of Muslim and Croat

15     officers from the 1st Krajina Corps; yes?

16        A.   No, that's not the way it was.

17        Q.   Mr. Malcic, were you aware that at this time, thousands of Muslim

18     and Croat civilians in Kljuc, Sanski Most and Prijedor and other areas

19     were being removed from their jobs and their homes.  Were you aware of

20     that?

21        A.   Not then.

22        Q.   Similarly, it was time to purge any remaining Muslim and Croat

23     officers in the 1st Krajina Corps; yes?

24        A.   If I explain this to you, you will know the truth.  And if I do

25     not give you this explanation, you are going to live in this delusion and

Page 26239

 1     you will not know what the actual situation was.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, once more, a gesture like thumbs up to a

 3     witness and you can follow the proceedings outside this courtroom.

 4             Is that clear to you?  I'm not -- no, you were making a signal

 5     with your hand, which is impermissible, and will next time lead to the

 6     removal from this courtroom.

 7             No speaking, just listen.

 8             Witness, Mr. Jeremy puts to you three documents in a certain

 9     context.  You have commented in your statement on one of them.  Your

10     comment and your description seems not to be in line with the gist of

11     these two -- of the three documents in context.

12             Now, if you say you are going to tell us how it was, the first

13     thing I'd like to hear from you briefly, not a long story, why the

14     1st Krajina Corps sent a message saying what, after having discussed

15     apparently the matter, how to say it briefly, how to get rid of the

16     Muslim and Croat officers.  And there's an immediate response:  Send

17     Muslim and Croat officers to Yugoslavia.  And then, in a follow-up

18     report, some concern is expressed about, at least in time following up,

19     if we get rid of them, we might have a problem, staffing problem, anyhow,

20     and the same language is used as in the first report, which led to the

21     very short order to send them elsewhere.

22             Now, that's simply the issue Mr. Jeremy is raising with you, if I

23     understand you well, Mr. Jeremy.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you, not tell us extensively, but how is it

Page 26240

 1     that this picture so clearly seems to arise from these documents and that

 2     you say it wasn't as it is -- as it seems to be on paper?  If you could

 3     briefly explain that, you have an opportunity to do so.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear the interpretation

 5     of that.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  We didn't receive interpretation.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Where did it stop, Mr. Lukic?  The

 8     interpretation.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  That the whole of your last address was missed.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll -- I think the best thing to do would be

11     to re-read it.

12             When I sought verification with Mr. Jeremy, that was still

13     interpreted?  I said:  "Now, that's simply the issue Mr. Jeremy is

14     raising with you."

15             Was that still interpreted?

16             MR. LUKIC:  That part was interpreted.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay, then the following part.

18             I then asked you, could you -- and I'm puzzled, "could you tell

19     us, but not extensively, how it is that this picture that so clearly

20     seems to arise from these documents and that you say gives a false

21     picture, what is it that reality was different from what it seemed to be

22     on paper?"

23             If you could briefly explain that, we would appreciate if you

24     would do.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, four sentences.

Page 26241

 1             First sentence:  The 1st Krajina Corps asked for the position of

 2     General Mladic what to do with active-duty officers who were of Muslim

 3     and Croat ethnicity, and some Crisis Staff insist on having that question

 4     resolved.

 5             Second sentence:  General Mladic immediately responded to that

 6     document.  He said officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity should be sent

 7     on annual leave for 30 days and then measures should be taken that they

 8     be sent to the Army of Yugoslavia.  Why 30 days?  So that these

 9     active-duty officers who are ethnic Muslims and Croats should give this

10     serious thought, what they should do further on.  When they were asked by

11     the Army of Yugoslavia to stay there, to join them, they stayed in the

12     garrisons of the 1st Krajina Corps.  That's where they had apartments,

13     that's where their wives had jobs, and that's where their children went

14     to school.

15             Some of these officers immediately said that they would stay in

16     the Army of Republika Srpska.  Another group of people said that they

17     were staying in the Army of Republika Srpska.  They consulted their

18     family members, their children, because this is a major turning point in

19     the families' lives.  Those who decided to go into the Army of

20     Yugoslavia, because the Army of Yugoslavia was the successor of the JNA,

21     and until then, they had been members of the JNA --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- they would be sent to the Army

24     of Yugoslavia.  Those who wanted to do that gave -- got motor vehicles --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you --

Page 26242

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- they loaded their moveable

 2     property --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and they went and joined certain

 5     garrisons --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- witness --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- in the Army of Yugoslavia.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, I stop you there.

 9             Witness, you said four sentences.  You've now taken a whole page

10     and you are moving away from what I asked you.

11             The issue is why, on paper, it is presented as how do we get rid

12     of them?  And how is it that, on paper, it is not, and that's apparently

13     your explanation, let's give them free choice.  Let's give them time to

14     consider all that.  That's not what the papers say.  The papers give a

15     totally different explanation.  And I asked you what explains the huge

16     difference between your interpretation of the situation and the

17     interpretation of the situation as we find them in those documents?

18             If you have an explanation for that, rather than to explain again

19     what your view is, you can give it.  If you don't have an explanation for

20     that, Mr. Jeremy will put his next question to you.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood that I am supposed to

23     explain this document written by General Mladic.  General Mladic provided

24     his position, his opinion when asked.  It's not an order.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Listen, you misunderstood that and you are not

Page 26243

 1     invited to further do anything else than I asked you to do.  And

 2     apparently you have no explanation at this moment, not of the document,

 3     but of the contradiction between your version and the version as it

 4     appears on paper.

 5             Mr. Jeremy, next question, please.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   Mr. Malcic, your comments in your statement in relation to this

 8     9 June order from General Mladic and the comments that we have heard in

 9     the last few answers you provided to this Chamber focus on officers in

10     the 1st Krajina Corps; correct?  Muslim and Croat officers.

11        A.   If you allow me.  That was the only document that was in writing

12     asked by the 1st Krajina Corps and according to this document, we acted

13     in all the other corps and the air force and air defence because there

14     was no unit at that point which did not have any Muslim and Croat

15     officers.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I stop you again.  The question is:  Was it about

17     officers, just about officers?  That means not soldiers, not

18     non-commissioned officers.  Was it about officers?  Your statement and

19     your explanations.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the officers of the Yugoslav

21     People's Army that had remained in the units of the VRS together with us

22     Serbs.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please, Mr. Jeremy.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Mr. Malcic, it is correct, is it not, that at this time, it

Page 26244

 1     wasn't simply officers of Muslim and Croat ethnicity who were being

 2     removed from their posts in the VRS.  In fact, it was all active-service

 3     personnel who were being removed from their posts; correct?

 4        A.   No, that's not correct.  Officers of the Yugoslav People's Army

 5     who wanted, after the JNA withdrew from Bosnia, to remain in Bosnia

 6     remained.  The other troops and a large number of Muslim and Croat

 7     officers from the JNA deserted from JNA units and joined the new armed

 8     forces being created by Croatia and the Muslims.

 9             Those who had remained at that time were rare Yugoslav-oriented

10     people who wanted to defend Yugoslavia as much as we did, like we, the

11     other officers of the JNA who remained until the end in the JNA.

12        Q.   Mr. Malcic, what I'm asking you is whether at this time -- I'm no

13     longer referring to officers, so the non-officer class but I'm asking

14     whether active military personnel of Croatian and Muslim ethnicity were

15     removed from the VRS at this time during these June, July months?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, I think the question has been answered,

17     to some extent, by the witness where he said they deserted.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not removed, those who

19     remained until the last day.  They remained in the Army of

20     Republika Srpska.

21             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

22             Could we please see a final document, Exhibit P4971.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  By re-reading, I do agree that the witness was then

24     talking about officers again, although you had guided him away from

25     officers.  But apparently he disagrees with your position.

Page 26245

 1             MR. JEREMY:  Now, Your Honours, before I take the witness through

 2     this particular document, I am aware of a typographical error.  I've sent

 3     it for -- we've made a request that it be corrected.  And that error is

 4     the -- where we see reference to our strictly confidential number 28/4

 5     and then it goes on to contain a date.  In the original mit's 9 June

 6     1992, and in the translation it's 9 July 1992.  So we're dealing with

 7     that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I see it.

 9             MR. JEREMY:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Malcic, we see that this is a document from the

11     Main Staff of Republika Srpska, strictly confidential number 28/4, and

12     it's dated 9 July 1992.  The heading is:  "Regulating status in service

13     of active-duty military personnel."

14             We see a reference to our strictly confidential number 28/4,

15     9 June 1992.  That's the document -- that's the 9 June order that we

16     looked at earlier.

17             Now, we read in the text of this document -- excuse me, before I

18     read it out, we see it it's type-signed General Mladic.

19             We read in the text of the document:

20             "On returning from annual leave, refer all active-duty military

21     personnel of Muslim or Croatian nationality to the personnel

22     administration of the General Staff of the Army of the Federal Republic

23     of Yugoslavia for the purposes of regulating further their service

24     status."

25             Now, I also draw your attention to the strictly confidential

Page 26246

 1     number 28/4.  That's the number that we were discussing earlier in

 2     respect to the 9 June document, when we were discussing whether or not

 3     that passed through your office.

 4             MR. JEREMY:  Now could we go to the second page in the English,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are working on the translation anyhow, then

 7     also correct the number 23 in the top which, in the original, reads 233.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Malcic, we see a list of who this order is sent to.  And

11     you'll agree with me that that's the entirety of the VRS, correct, in

12     July 1992?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, this order, sent to all active-duty military personnel of

15     Muslim or Croatian nationality, did you consider this and do you consider

16     this particular order to also be a great favour and privilege intended

17     for the protection of these soldiers in the VRS?

18        A.   Those who decided after 30 days not to remain in the Army of

19     Republika Srpska, it was not said in the first document where they should

20     be sent.  This is an addition to the previous document.  It is said that

21     they should go to the General Staff of the JNA, and they -- their status,

22     a new assignment, would be decided based on their training and

23     competencies.  It was an advantage compared to the Serbs because --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Not only slow down.  But, Mr. Jeremy, put a question

Page 26247

 1     to the witness not as you did, ask for the purpose of all this.

 2             Witness, listening to your answer, it seems that you're focussing

 3     very much on those who -- that had decided not to remain in the army,

 4     whereas the document makes no distinction between those who had decided

 5     to remain or not to remain.  But carefully listen to Mr. Jeremy's next

 6     question which will be more -- no, listen to the next question,

 7     Mr. Witness, Mr. Malcic.

 8             Mr. Jeremy, of course, with the question you put to the witness,

 9     you can expect an answer which does not stay within what you would like

10     the witness to tell us.

11             MR. JEREMY:

12        Q.   Mr. Malcic, you'll agree with me that this document relates to

13     all Croat and Muslims, the remaining Croats and Muslims, serving in the

14     VRS and it gives them no option to remain in the VRS as of 9 July 1992.

15     You will agree with that.

16        A.   You put it very well, active, active military personnel, not

17     reserve personnel.  And I was a professional officer who dealt only with

18     active-duty personnel.

19             Those active personnel who decided, after 30 days, to remain --

20     not to remain were directed to go to the General Staff.  Those who

21     decided to remain, remained.  Which means a large part of these officers

22     remained in the VRS.  There was no purge.  The rest were directed to go

23     to the Army of Yugoslavia.

24             MR. JEREMY:  Your Honours, I have no further questions on this

25     document or on this cross-examination.

Page 26248

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

 2             Have the questions by Mr. Jeremy triggered any need for further

 3     questions, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe just to finalise the last sentences witness

 5     said.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, you said a large number remain in

 8     the Army of Republika Srpska.  Is there any record of that in the

 9     personnel department, in the archives of the VRS, currently the archives

10     in Kozara?

11        A.   I don't know where this archive is, but I know that until the end

12     of the existence of the VRS, a large number of active-duty Muslim and

13     Croat officers remained in the Army of Republika Srpska, and most of them

14     were in the air force and air defence.  That was according to the rules

15     of the --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, again, just answer the question.  The

17     question was whether, in the archives, currently the archives in Kozara,

18     whether there's any record of that personnel remaining.  Is there a

19     record in the archives?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There should be the order governing

21     the continuing service of these persons.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know whether there is, I understand,

23     although you think there should be.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that while I was in active

25     service, I made some of them.

Page 26249

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Perhaps my question was not well put.  Is the archive of the

 4     Main Staff in Kozara; do you know that?

 5        A.   I left on 31st August 1997.  After that time, I don't know what

 6     happened in the Army of Republika Srpska.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, do you want to ask the witness

 8     something?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   At one point, I think you said you had spoken to General Mladic

12     about this.  Can you tell us briefly what was said in that conversation.

13        A.   When this order was sent to units, their professional organs

14     called me up and asked, Why should we send these officers on leave when

15     nobody has the right to go on vacation at this time?  So I went to

16     General Mladic and asked him.  And he answered, to the best of my

17     recollection, You will agree that it is a huge decision for every family

18     what your future would be, to go to somewhere -- some place unknown or

19     remain here, which is your home, and you did not join the national

20     parties when everybody did and you did not go to the JNA when the JNA was

21     inviting.

22             Some people who were then in the army did not find it convenient

23     because they believed they could -- because some of our officers thought

24     they could create their own Serbian state without us, and that order was

25     made to deal with these extreme people, and I personally liked it.  I

Page 26250

 1     thought that innocent people should not be harassed, that they should be

 2     enabled to decide wherever they think they will be better off.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think we saw two orders -- or not

 4     orders, whatever the witness tells us about it, the one is to send them

 5     to Yugoslavia, the other one is that, upon return, they had to report to

 6     the -- okay.  So in your question it was unclear which order you referred

 7     to.

 8             Second, could you tell us exactly where the witness said that he

 9     had spoken to General Mladic about "this," apart from what "this" exactly

10     was?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say it anywhere in --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness.  Witness, I had a conversation with

13     Mr. Lukic, not with you.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I was just discussing --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's accepted.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I had this conversation with my colleague Stojanovic,

18     and obviously I was confused with my conversation with the witness, and

19     he confirmed, Mr. Stojanovic, that it was not mentioned today on the

20     transcript.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then if there's anything relevant in your

22     conversations with witnesses, put it on paper, bring it to our attention

23     in that way.

24             So the witness may have said that but not in this court and

25     not -- it doesn't appear in his statement.

Page 26251

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I would just clarify regarding which opinion of

 2     Mr. Mladic he was talking about, as you wanted, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, if you withdraw the question, I do not have to

 4     know about which one it was.

 5             You're referring to something the witness has said.  You

 6     established that he has not said it.  Therefore, I'm not insisting on any

 7     further clarification at this moment.

 8             Put your next question to the witness as you deem fit about this

 9     or about any other matter.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I would still like to ask you, when you discussed this, was it in

12     June or in July?  When did you speak to General Mladic?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  What is "this"?  I earlier said that it's unclear

14     when you talked about the order which one was meant and that, therefore,

15     when you discussed "this" is as unclear as a result.

16             Now, in your question, you again say:  "When you discussed this."

17     Discussed what, Mr. Lukic?  That should be clear before the witness can

18     answer the question.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But even before that, you said "discussed with

20     General Mladic," which you have established never took place, never

21     mentioned in this court.  And Judge Orie said he doesn't want to hear any

22     further about that one.  So the discussion with General Mladic, which

23     this witness has never referred to, doesn't become a topic for discussion

24     at this point because, first, it doesn't even arise from

25     cross-examination.

Page 26252

 1             MR. LUKIC:  With all due respect, Your Honour, I think it did

 2     arise from cross-examination.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  This witness has never said in this court that he

 4     discussed with Mr. Mladic.  This is introduced by you and the

 5     Presiding Judge made a ruling on that.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously inartfully raised by me.  I could ask the

 7     witness:  Have you ever talked about the document from --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But then that is ruled out by the fact that it

 9     doesn't arise from cross-examination.

10             MR. LUKIC:  But we have -- even the document I wanted to ask

11     whether the witness --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Much depends, Mr. Lukic, whether it's about the

13     document you have introduced through the statement or whether it's about

14     any document.  Because the document you introduced in the statement, you

15     can't say that it arises from cross-examination because it finds its

16     origin in this statement you've taken yourself and the document you've

17     referred to yourself.

18             Now, therefore, I insist on what is it about that you want --

19     what is "this"?  What is the document?  And if that results in any

20     testimony of the witness that he has discussed it with whomever, we'll

21     hear that.  But what document are you referring to?  The one you

22     introduced in your statement or one of the documents introduced with this

23     witness by Mr. Jeremy?

24             MR. LUKIC:  I think not to be on the wrong side, if you can ask

25     the witness which --

Page 26253

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I can't.  I can't.  I don't have the basis for

 2     putting any such question to the witness.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  If I may consult with my client just for a half a

 4     minute.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may consult your client.

 6                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The voice of Mr. Mladic is by far too loud for

 8     consultation purposes.

 9             Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Malcic, did you discuss with General Mladic

12     personally and at what time the issue we discussed in the previous

13     session, that is to say, the document on "differentiation" of the Muslims

14     and Croats who are members of the VRS?

15        A.   The document sent to Colonel Rankovic personally was written or

16     dictated by Mladic himself.  It didn't go through me.  That document was

17     not clear to Colonel Rankovic.  He called me the next day, on the 10th of

18     June, and asked, Why should these officers be sent on annual leave when

19     nobody else is going?  I said I will ask General Mladic the first chance

20     I get.  I don't know how many days passed after that, one, two or three,

21     but I eventually met General Mladic and asked him why.  And in response

22     to my question, he said what I just described.  He said, People need 30

23     days to think seriously, to consult with their families, because it is a

24     huge change in everybody's life.  They have the right to go to the Army

25     of Yugoslavia because the Army of Yugoslavia accepts all officers of the

Page 26254

 1     JNA who stayed in the JNA until the last day they were in Bosnia.  And he

 2     didn't send them off to join their national armies.  He treated them very

 3     humanely.  He gave them time to think about it very --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You're going beyond the question.  The question

 5     was - and you have answered that question - that you discussed the matter

 6     with General Mladic after the order apparently was sent to

 7     Colonel Rankovic and that an explanation was given to you which is

 8     similar to what you told us and which, as we established before, is not

 9     in line with the other documents dealing with the same problem and that

10     is of some concern.

11             Next question, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We do not have any more questions for this witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, if the witness would have discussed

14     this conversation with Mr. Mladic in any of the conversations with you,

15     it's totally not understandable why you have not raised the matter in

16     your examination.  And, second, why you have not sent any proofing note

17     which relates to that.  It comes as a surprise in the third --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I can explain that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, not at this moment, and I just make this

20     observation.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Because he didn't -- he never told it to me while I

22     was preparing him.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whatever the defence, whether it's you or

24     whether it's Defence, I leave that open.

25             You took the statement at the time.  I think you were the one.

Page 26255

 1     So then that also comes perhaps as a bit of a surprise that it is not in

 2     there.  But if it call came at the last moment, told to anyone else, then

 3     still the question remains why you did not raise it in the

 4     examination-in-chief which -- because it seems to be pretty relevant for

 5     the matters discussed with this witness.

 6             I leave it to that.  Have the questions in re-examination

 7     triggered any need?

 8             MR. JEREMY:  No, Your Honours, but I would like to emphasise that

 9     as issues like this arise, then it's vitally important to the Prosecution

10     that we become aware of them at the earliest opportunity.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that it's one of the few times that no

12     additional questions were put to the witness, apart from summarising the

13     statement, and it now turns out that it was one of the -- certainly one

14     of the circumstances in which it would have been helpful to immediately

15     be aware of that.

16             No further questions.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just wanted to say something to Mr. Lukic.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Lukic --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No problem.  I just wanted to say, Mr. Lukic, if

22     in re-examination, you remember something that you didn't raise in

23     in-chief, the proper procedure is just to request the Court if you may

24     raise it and offer the Prosecution the opportunity to re-cross-examine on

25     that new issue.  That's the proper procedure.  Rather than just push it

Page 26256

 1     in and say I can explain.  This would give the explanation.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  By mistake.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you request that you raise the issue.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  By mistake, I apologise.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then there are no further questions for the witness.

 7             Mr. Malcic, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd

 8     like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague -- yes, I

 9     offered you an opportunity to add at the end anything you wanted to add

10     and that opportunity is given now.  But, please, it should relate to any

11     of the questions that were put to you.  Is that clear?  And it should be

12     short.

13             You have an opportunity to add whatever you deem necessary to

14     add.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I never appeared

16     before any court ever, except here in The Hague.  This is the second

17     time.

18             I said something before this Court after the question put by the

19     Prosecutor and then it reminded me of some of these things in relation to

20     this document.  Nobody had asked me about it before.  And that's why I

21     thought I should say this, because I thought this was the right place

22     where I should say things that I happened to remember and that I should

23     say it under oath.

24             I do apologise, once again, if I did anything that was

25     inappropriate.

Page 26257

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now we have two versions:  The one that you raised

 3     the matter of your conversation with Mr. Mladic with the Defence; and the

 4     second version now being that you remembered it only after questions had

 5     been put to you by the Prosecution.

 6             I leave it to that at this moment -- no, no.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't understand me.  They

 8     did not understand me -- they did not ask me anything before, and that's

 9     why I didn't say anything.  I'm saying that I remembered it all today

10     when I was asked these questions by the Prosecutor.  Had they asked me

11     before, I would have said the same things.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic has explained to us that similar

13     things were said earlier in your conversations with the Defence, that is,

14     about your conversation with Mr. Mladic, and that was what I was

15     focussing on.

16             This concludes your testimony.  I have thanked you for coming to

17     The Hague and for having answered the questions that were put to you by

18     the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you, too, for having heard

20     me out.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We went a bit beyond our usual time.

23             After the break -- first, do we have to deal with associated

24     exhibits at this moment with this witness?  Because I do understand that

25     from -- for the previous witness that we will discuss it somewhere next

Page 26258

 1     week.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  For this witness, is there anything?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer those two associated exhibits.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  No objections.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 8             Mr. Lukic, if you would give their numbers in sequence, I

 9     think --

10             MR. LUKIC:  The first one is 1D2440.  It's exchange of JNA

11     soldiers.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2440 receives number D657, Your

14     Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D657.  Next one, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  And actually next one is already in the evidence

17     under the P number.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's only this one.

19             Then having dealt with that, Mr. Lukic, may I take it that the

20     Defence is ready to call its next witness after the break.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then -- yes, I nevertheless would like to deal

23     with one matter briefly.  It will not take more than five minutes but I'd

24     like to have dealt with it before the break.

25             And we have to -- need to go into private session.

Page 26259

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26260

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18             We take a break and we resume at 12.30.

19                           --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness.

22             MR. IVETIC:  The Defence, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The Defence, yes, yes.

24             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honour.  It's Mr. Vlade Lucic.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could the witness be escorted into the

Page 26261

 1     courtroom.

 2             I further draw the attention of Mr. Mladic to the following.

 3     There was not only communication with gestures, Mr. Mladic, with the

 4     witness which I said would lead to measures to be taken.  Similarly, you

 5     have an active interaction by gestures with the public gallery which is

 6     also not acceptable; and, therefore, if that continues, a screen will be

 7     put between you and the public gallery so that everyone can -- in the

 8     public gallery can see you on their monitors, and you will be unable to

 9     communicate in the way as you did before the break.

10             Let that be clear to you that that would be the measure to be

11     taken if it continues.

12             Then finally, I, Mr. Lukic -- Mr. Lukic, D657 -- Mr. Lukic is not

13     there.  But I started saying that D657 was admitted into evidence.  Then

14     something came in between, but D657 is admitted.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Lucic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Good afternoon, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The text of a solemn declaration will be handed out

19     to you now.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

21     the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  VLADE LUCIC

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lucic.  Please be seated.

25             Mr. Lucic, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.  You find

Page 26262

 1     him to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

 2     Mr. Mladic.

 3             Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 6        Q.   Good day, Colonel.

 7        A.   Good day.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to have 65 ter number 1D04015 in

 9     e-court.

10        Q.   Sir, if you could look on your monitor, do you remember giving

11     this written statement to the Karadzic Defence team in 2012?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If we could please turn to the last page in both

14     versions.

15        Q.   Directing your attention to the last page in the Serbian

16     original, can you please tell us whose signature appears at the end of

17     the statement.

18        A.   My signature is at the end of this statement.

19        Q.   And, sir, subsequent to signing this statement in 2012, did you

20     have occasion to review the same in the Serbian language so as to

21     ascertain if everything was correctly recorded therein?

22        A.   Yes, I had that opportunity.  I read it and everything was

23     written the way I had stated it.

24        Q.   Now, sir, if I were to ask you questions today about the very

25     same topics as contained in your statement, would your answers be the

Page 26263

 1     same as recorded in your statement?

 2        A.   Yes.  My answers would be the same as those contained in the

 3     statement, but perhaps the word order wouldn't be exactly the same.

 4        Q.   And, sir, since you have taken the solemn declaration to tell the

 5     truth, would that mean that the testimony as contained in your written

 6     statement is truthful in nature?

 7        A.   Yes.  To the best of my knowledge, everything I said in this

 8     statement is true.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time I tender 65 ter number

10     1D04015 as the next Defence Exhibit.  We do not tender the three

11     associated exhibits that are mentioned in the statement.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4015 receives number D658, Your

14     Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D658 is admitted.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17             At this time, I have a written -- I have a summary of the written

18     statement that I'd like to read.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Colonel Lucic is a retired career army officer.  In

21     May 1992, he received orders to report to the Sarajevo Corps, then still

22     called the JNA 4th Corp., and was assigned to the 216th Mountain Brigade

23     under the command of Colonel Dragomir Milosevic.  He was ordered to take

24     over command of an infantry battalion.

25             The witness was the commander of the 2nd Battalion from 18 May

Page 26264

 1     1992 to the end of January 1993, at which time he moved to the command of

 2     the 1st Romanija Brigade.  Upon taking command of the battalion, he

 3     immediately noted that the lines were not covered with enough men, that

 4     the defence was not linked, and that establishment weapons were lacking.

 5             On 22 May 1992, the 1st Romanija Brigade was formed.  The

 6     strategy and objectives of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps in relation to

 7     Sarajevo was to prevent the penetration of the BH army into Serb

 8     territory.  The Sarajevo Romanija Corps mainly conducted defensive

 9     operations due to the lack of manpower, while the BH army units were

10     almost always on the offensive.

11             He and his unit were aware of the international conventions that

12     protect the civilian population in war, so they opened fire in

13     self-defence, and only against military targets.

14             He recalls that the VRS Main Staff and the Serb civilian

15     authorities extended offers for Sarajevo to be completely demilitarised,

16     with all heavy weapons to be placed under UN control.

17             The Serb side also took a liberal stance with regard to freedom

18     of movement of civilians both toward and from Sarajevo.

19             And that completes the summary of the witness's written

20     statement.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you have any further questions for the witness,

22     you may put them, Mr. Ivetic.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, Mr. Ivetic, can I just -- at

24     line -- page 52, line 11, 10 to 11, you're saying that -- the witness was

25     moved in January 1993 to the command of the 1st Romanija Brigade.  Then

Page 26265

 1     you followed that by saying "upon taking command of the battalion..."

 2             Do you mean to say the brigade or the battalion?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  The battalion, sir.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Is that referring to the previous paragraph

 5     when he became commander of the battalion?

 6             MR. IVETIC:  It refers to this paragraph where it talks about the

 7     time-period when he was commander of the 2nd Battalion.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Colonel, I would have some additional questions for you.

11             First of all, I would like to ask you if your battalion had any

12     mortars?

13        A.   Yes, the battalion had mortars.  At first, it was less, and

14     later, more were added.  However, the level never reached that that had

15     been envisaged by establishment.

16        Q.   Could you tell us what calibre mortars you had and how many.

17        A.   In the battalion, there were 60-millimetre mortars and

18     82-millimetre mortars.  60-millimetre mortars were within companies,

19     whereas 82-millimetre mortars were a separate unit, and it was called the

20     independent platoon of 82-millimetre mortars.  It was within the

21     battalion.

22        Q.   Did you have enough personnel to man --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, the second part of the question was not

24     answered; that is, how many.  The witness explained to us where they were

25     within the battalion but ...

Page 26266

 1             Could you tell us how many all together 60-millimetre mortars

 2     there were in the companies and how many 82-millimetre mortars there were

 3     in that separate unit, and at what point in time?  Because I do

 4     understand that initially you had less and later you had more.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer now?

 6             When I assumed my duty, as far as I can remember, there were two

 7     60-millimetre mortars in two companies respectively.  And in the

 8     battalion, in the independent platoon, there weren't any 82-millimetre

 9     mortars because that platoon was still in the process of being

10     established.  There was a platoon commander, a deputy commander, and a

11     few soldiers, as far as I can remember, because their command had issued

12     the following order during mobilisation that that platoon should be

13     manned only by reservists, that is to say, military conscripts.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I was not asking about who were in those

15     platoons.  I was just asking about the number of mortars.  I do

16     understand that when you assumed duty, there were 60-millimetre mortars,

17     two mortars in each of the two platoons.

18             The 82-millimetre mortars, could you tell us when they then

19     arrived in the separate unit?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 82-millimetre mortars, they

21     arrived -- well, I cannot say exactly what the date was, but it was

22     during the month of May or the first half of June, there were two

23     82-millimetre mortars.  Otherwise, according to establishment, there

24     should be six mortars.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  When you talk about June, is that June 1992?

Page 26267

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 1992.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Did the number of mortars increase since then or

 3     decrease, either the 60-millimetre or the 82-millimetre batteries?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both numbers increased.  In that

 5     area, in addition to this nucleus that I took command of, after

 6     mobilisation, companies were established, and then one company got two

 7     mortars of 60-millimetres, whereas the 82-millimetre platoon was later on

 8     replenished with another two, and then, at some point in time, in

 9     September, another two.  So that was six all together.  And during the

10     month of October, the platoon was relocated to the village of Podgrab or,

11     rather, Nikolici.  The slopes on the south-east of Jahorina.  So that is

12     the opposite side of Sarajevo.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you told us that, in total, there was six

14     82-millimetre mortars at the end of 1992.  What was the total number of

15     the 60-millimetre mortars at that point in time or at its highest?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, at that time, there were

17     already six 60-millimetre mortars, two respectively in all the companies.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

20        Q.   Colonel, could you tell us about how these mortars were planned

21     to be used by your battalion?

22        A.   The mortars were within the combat disposition of the company as

23     one element of that disposition, and they were planned to be used within

24     the assignment given to the unit, and that assignment was to defend that

25     stretch of the front line and that area as well as the population that

Page 26268

 1     lived behind the lines near defence positions.

 2        Q.   And could you also tell us how it is that they were used to

 3     defend the lines?  What kind of fire missions did they undertake?

 4        A.   Mortars did not have any firing mission.  They were there and

 5     they had to be ready to be used, if necessary.

 6        Q.   And when would they be necessary to be used, under what

 7     circumstances?

 8        A.   Generally speaking, the use of weapons was gradual, depending on

 9     the disposition, that is to say, in case of attack on the line or part of

10     the line, those who were forward would fire first, and then if that was

11     not sufficient, then the commander would use the 60-millimetre mortar

12     with a proviso that the direction and the range of those mortars was

13     strictly regulated.  It's what we called the forward-most line of

14     defence, that is, the firing line that is behind cover, and the order

15     given to the commanders is to use mortars only when there is no other way

16     just in front of the defence line or if a trench line had been reached by

17     the enemy, then to use mortars to defend the trench.

18        Q.   Now, sir, could you please explain for us, you said, "in front of

19     the defence line or if a trench line has been reached by the enemy then

20     to use the mortars to defend the trench."

21             In the case of mortars being used in either of those instances,

22     what area would be targeted by those mortars?

23        A.   The line of defence in that specific area where I received my

24     battalion leaned on the Miljacka river, from Vrbanja to the next bridge

25     on the Miljacka, and then towards the stadium.  And, on the other side,

Page 26269

 1     it was from the intersection near the Vrbanja bridge towards the Spomen

 2     park.  So in front of the defence line, there was a belt of 60 up to 100

 3     metres that was clear.  That was the river and sometime the promenade.

 4     It was a clear area, and they could use the weapons in this belt if they

 5     were unable to prevent an attack by the enemy differently.

 6        Q.   And where were the enemy forces situated in relation to this

 7     clear belt of 60 to 100 metres that you have identified?

 8        A.   The assaulting forces were directly opposite on the other side of

 9     the Miljacka river.  In the beginning, they were just behind the Vrbanja

10     bridge behind a wall or they were also using some buildings there, but

11     they also covered a part of the promenade that was looking from the

12     infantry line.

13             On the flanks we were separated from the enemy only by one street

14     that ended at the stadium.  On the other side near the Vrbanja bridge,

15     there was a large intersection, and on the side towards Spomen park, they

16     were very close, behind a building, sometimes at a distance of only 30

17     metres.  I did not tour every single trench but that was roughly the

18     disposition of defending and attacking forces.

19        Q.   Now, sir, did the mortars in your battalion ever get repositioned

20     so as to shoot into the interior of Sarajevo beyond this belt that you

21     have identified?

22        A.   While I was commander, the mortars did not change position and

23     never fired behind the lines, never find into the depth behind this line.

24        Q.   Now I'd like to take a look at your statement which we have on

25     the screen, and I'd like to look at paragraph 5 at the bottom of both

Page 26270

 1     versions.  Here you say that there were not enough men to cover the line.

 2             Could you explain for us what types of things you did in order to

 3     be able to cover the line with insufficient manpower.

 4        A.   The general situation in my battalion and in the brigade was a

 5     shortage of personnel.  We built trenches, not all of which were

 6     occupied, and we often had to take part of the personnel from units and

 7     during the night take them to those positions where an attack was

 8     expected, and we deployed these men behind a cover to pre-empt an attack

 9     on the defence line.

10             We did not have a line defence because, for us, it was a

11     resisting type of defence.  We did not plan withdrawal, so our defence

12     was deployed in depth and along the entire line, I had men and assets

13     deployed.

14        Q.   Were you able to cover the entire defence line?

15        A.   No, we were not.  We changed cover from time to time, and since

16     my battalion was practically semi-encircled and behind the lines, I was

17     surrounded by firing positions across Vrace, that's an area they

18     controlled by snipers, it's an area where you would move only by night

19     and under cover.  So I was encircled, in firing terms, and I was in a

20     semi-circle as far as the enemy forces are concerned.

21             These attacks came not only from the front but from the flank,

22     and I would sometimes have to take men away from the first line and take

23     them to the flanks towards Mojmilo hill, the Ozrenska Street to link them

24     up with a neighbouring unit, or take them perhaps to the area overlooking

25     Spomen park called Zlatiste where we often had to intervene with

Page 26271

 1     infantry.

 2             So all the forces that I had at my disposal were engaged to the

 3     maximum.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could I please seek clarification of one

 5     of the previous answers and perhaps of the question as well.

 6             You were asked, Witness, whether the mortars in your battalion

 7     ever got repositioned so as to shoot into the interior of Sarajevo beyond

 8     this belt that you have identified.  And then your answer was that they

 9     did not change position and that they never fired behind the lines.

10             My question is, if you would, hypothetically, want to fire beyond

11     this belt, would there be a need to reposition them?  Or could, from

12     their positions, could be fired into the interior of Sarajevo?  Not to

13     say that it happened, but I'm just asking you whether from the positions,

14     as unchanged, whether it was possible or impossible to fire into the

15     interior of Sarajevo.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the positions where the

17     mortars were, it was possible to fire into the depth in the interior, and

18     I see that you frequently use here the term "at the city."

19             To us professionals, those were just forces of the 1st Corps that

20     attacked us.  We fired only at them.  But, tactically speaking, they were

21     able to fire into the depth.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The very last line of your answer puzzles me again.

23     You say "tactically speaking, they were able to fire into the depth."

24             My question about -- was about your ability, and I do understand

25     that you were able to hit targets, as you explained, forces of the

Page 26272

 1     1st Corps, if they were situated in the city, that at least your mortars

 2     were able to engage such targets beyond the lines within the city.  And

 3     I'm not suggesting that they did, but I'm just trying to understand both

 4     the question and your answer.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Distinguished Mr. President, I'm

 6     not quite clear as to what you imply by my ability to fire at the city.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You said we fired only at this -- this belt and not

 8     beyond that.  My question is whether your mortars could have fired beyond

 9     that.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies in advance.  I have to

11     be more precise.  I didn't say that we fired.  I said that the mortars

12     were planned for use in that area in case infantry weapons were not

13     sufficient to stop an attack.

14             A mortar from that position had the technical and the tactical

15     possibility to fire several kilometres into the depth, but it never

16     happened because it was not within our assignment.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So there was no need to reposition there if you

18     would have wished - and I'm not suggesting that wish existed - if you

19     would have wished to fire into military targets within the city.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, there was no need.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   How often and in what manner would the enemy forces attack the

24     defence line that your battalion was defending?

25        A.   You could classify these attacks as classical or partial.  They

Page 26273

 1     were daily and sometimes nightly.  But if you narrow this definition only

 2     to the use of their mortars along the entire line and assault groups from

 3     flanks and from the front, such attacks were very frequent, especially in

 4     the period of end May, the month of June, and the month of July 1992.

 5     I'm talking about the period when I was the commander of that unit until

 6     January 1993.

 7        Q.   And how would the enemy forces move toward the line, toward the

 8     defence line?

 9        A.   They built fortifications and, whenever possible, they dug

10     trenches and built covers.  During the night, they approached and combat

11     groups approached frequently, destroyed a certain cover and advanced

12     their own line.  That was accompanied by a mortar attack against the rest

13     of the defence units or by sniper fire or other infantry weapon fire.

14        Q.   Colonel, could you tell us what were your orders that you

15     received in respect to your interactions with UNPROFOR?

16        A.   The first orders regarding UNPROFOR we began to receive in the

17     month of June notifying us of the upcoming arrival of UNPROFOR units,

18     informing us that they would probably have control of the airport, but

19     the main point was that we had to convey this order down to every single

20     soldier.  That UNPROFOR was able to move wherever they wanted, to cross

21     any bridge they wanted, and that we must not interfere with their

22     mission, and we must prevent any individual or group trying to interfere

23     with them.  That was an order that every soldier had to be familiarised

24     with, and the brigade commander said that he would personally check that

25     it is done when he toured the positions near the defence lines.

Page 26274

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us, sir, what were the orders given to your

 2     unit by your superiors in relation to the passage of humanitarian aid

 3     convoys?

 4        A.   I don't remember that any humanitarian convoys passed across

 5     Grbavica.  But the order was that we must not interfere with it, that

 6     they, as a humanitarian organisation, were doing their job, and we were

 7     not supposed to intervene or hinder them in any way.

 8             And, second, since these units were being reinforced by

 9     conscripts that had escaped from Sarajevo, they were very motivated to

10     see that humanitarian aid actually reached the city.  And through those

11     humanitarian organisations, they personally sent some assistance to their

12     relatives and families that remained in Sarajevo.  And one of my company

13     commanders asked for permission to send a package occasionally through

14     those humanitarian organisations, a package containing food or clothing,

15     et cetera.

16        Q.   Now I'd like to ask about the meetings which you attended at the

17     command of the brigade.  What kinds of instructions were given in

18     relation to the treatment of civilians?

19        A.   I didn't hear the first part of your question.  Did you say

20     something about the brigade or the command?

21        Q.   Yes, sir.  At the time that you moved from the level of battalion

22     commander to the role you had in the brigade command, and when you

23     attended collegium -- pardon me, meetings at the command of the brigade,

24     what kind of instructions were given by the brigade as to the treatment

25     of civilians?

Page 26275

 1        A.   You are narrowing down my answer.  It's not only that we got

 2     orders from the brigade command.  The way the army treated the civilians

 3     is well known.  You know where the core of our unit was; it was the 216th

 4     Mountain Brigade.  It was made up of people who had done their military

 5     service, who had been members of the Territorial Defence or the civilian

 6     protection, and some reserve police units.  All of them had been

 7     mobilised.  And from the very beginning, it was quite clear what the

 8     mission of the army was:  To defend the area and to defend the

 9     population.  And it was constantly stressed throughout their training.

10     Nobody, except authorised police officers, had any powers over civilians,

11     no right to search their apartments, to search them, to harass them,

12     et cetera.

13             If there was a need to intervene, sometimes, in cases where there

14     was a problem, the commanders were supposed to inform the competent

15     organs, that is to say, the military and civilian police, and leave it to

16     them.

17        Q.   What kind of instructions were given as to the disciplining of

18     soldiers?

19        A.   Just to add one thing about civilians.  It was clear, since this

20     was a populated area, it was emphatically prohibited to stop civilians,

21     to enter apartments, to appropriate property, or commit any other

22     criminal act.  When soldiers needed to be disciplined, there were

23     measures prescribed by the law.  For minor infractions, disciplinary

24     measures applied, and for more or less serious crimes, the competent

25     authorities were notified and criminal complaints were filed.

Page 26276

 1             I remember since we had a detailed briefing where all the members

 2     of the commands, that is to say, assistant commanders, made reports about

 3     the previous period, the assistant commander for security reported that

 4     he had for the previous period already filed 17 criminal reports.  I

 5     don't know to what they referred because in my unit, nothing like that

 6     had happened.

 7        Q.   My final question, and perhaps you've already answered it with

 8     your last line.  Did you your battalion have any such incidents requiring

 9     criminal or disciplinary proceedings against its member soldiers?

10        A.   Yes, yes, it had.  The first problem was going AWOL.

11     Individually or as a group, soldiers would sometimes leave and go without

12     permission to their homes.  They would be taken into custody by the

13     military police and commanders would in such cases pronounce disciplinary

14     measures.

15             At one briefing, one of the commanders reported disciplinary

16     problems with one soldier, and I said, Bring him to me.  And since this

17     soldier constantly displayed disobedient behaviour, questioned the

18     commander and undermined him in other ways, I pronounced the measure of

19     two days in detention because that was within my powers.

20             Another case happened in June.  Upon returning from leave, a

21     platoon commander did not take his platoon to the positions according to

22     regulations causing strong infantry and mortar fire, resulting in one

23     death and seven wounded.  Since the platoon was already small and it had

24     lost one-third of the men, that commander had to be dismissed.  His rank

25     was stripped, and he was integrated into the neighbouring platoon as a

Page 26277

 1     private.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm -- you used until now a little bit

 3     over half an hour.  How much time would you still need?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I prefaced this as my last question so once the

 5     witness is finished, then I'm complete with my direct.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please put that question to the witness.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I did, and he was in the middle of answering it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  He was in the middle of answering it.

 9             Yes, Witness, you explained a lot about disciplinary action taken

10     against those who apparently had disturbed the internal order and

11     internal functioning of the forces.

12             If that is what you wanted to ask him, then --

13             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps if I could just follow-up --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  He's giving examples, and I don't know for how long

15     he would continue to do that.

16             So if you have any further question or any focused question on

17     the matter, please put it to the witness.

18             MR. IVETIC:

19        Q.   Sir, let me ask you:  In your battalion, were there any criminal

20     proceedings that were required against any of the soldiers for criminal

21     behaviour?

22        A.   Apart from the few cases that I just described that were dealt

23     with along the chain of command, there were certain cases that involved

24     crimes and criminal liability had to be dealt with.  The army filed

25     criminal complaints -- reported such cases to the competent authorities

Page 26278

 1     and criminal complaints were filed.  Such cases were rare.  One of them

 2     happened in August in a company whose positions faced Vrbanja bridge.  I

 3     don't know exactly how the investigating authorities dealt with it.  I'm

 4     just describing how I learned about it by the company -- from the company

 5     commander through his reports.

 6             A soldier tried to stop a civilian who was entering a building.

 7     The man continued to move.  The soldier caught up with him and asked to

 8     see an ID.  And the man hit the soldier whereupon the soldier opened

 9     fire.

10             Another soldier who tried to stop his colleague got fired at too.

11     I know that there was a trial.  The man was convicted, but I don't know

12     any other details.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14        A.   Apart from firing at the civilian and another person, one of whom

15     survived, the other didn't, the soldier committed a violation, first of

16     all, when he insisted that the civilian show his ID.  He should have

17     reported it to the authorities.  The building the civilian was trying to

18     enter was just behind our positions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, before we go into further details of this

20     event, do you remember what the ethnicity of the person was who slapped

21     the soldier in the face and was then shot at?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure, but I think it's a

23     Bosniak or Muslim.  And the other one was either a Serb or a Croat.  I

24     don't know, the other civilian.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do you have any name of the victim or

Page 26279

 1     victims?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, whatever I say is to be the

 3     truth, as I said, but I cannot say anything now with 100 per cent

 4     certainty.  I think that the name was Ilija, but this is really with a

 5     reservation that that is what I seem to remember now.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ilija as a first name?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, first name.  But really, with

 8     the reservation because I'm not sure.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have no further questions.

11        Q.   Colonel, thank you for answering my questions today for the

12     Defence of General Mladic.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we take the break first.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And that you'll start your cross-examination after

16     that.

17             Ms. MacGregor.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you for your patience, Mr. President.

19             The topic that was just discussed was a bit outside the scope of

20     the statement and the summary.  If it's possible to just ask one question

21     of the witness before the break and that would give us an opportunity to

22     develop cross-examination on that topic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that would be fair.

24             No objections, Mr. Ivetic?

25             MR. IVETIC:  No objections.

Page 26280

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, who is counsel for the Prosecution,

 2     will put one question to you.  Then we'll take a break, and after that,

 3     she'll continue her cross-examination.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Lucic.  I wonder if you remember the name not

 7     of the victim of the incident you just spoke about but of the soldier

 8     that you alleged was prosecuted.

 9        A.   Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor.  I remember the last name of

10     the soldier, I do not remember his first name.  His last name was

11     Pejanovic.

12        Q.   And to clarify, Mr. Ivetic had asked you about your battalion

13     specifically.  Was this a soldier in your battalion, the 2nd Mountain

14     Infantry Battalion?

15        A.   Yes, he was in a company or, rather, a squad within a platoon

16     within a company within my battalion.

17        Q.   And my final clarification.  You spoke about August.  Are you

18     referring to August 1992?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.  No further questions at this moment.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first take a break.

22             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.  You

23     may follow the usher.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at a quarter to 2.00.

Page 26281

 1                           --- Recess taken at 1.26 p.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

 4             MS. MacGREGOR:  Mr. President, while we wait for the witness, if

 5     I can ask for Exhibit P4621 to be brought to the screen.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Lucic, in your statement, and today during your testimony,

10     you made several claims about the 1st Corps of the ABiH having greater

11     numerical strength than VRS units.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, I refer you to paragraphs 7, 8

13     and 16 of witness's statement.

14        Q.   Are you able to see the document on the screen in front of you,

15     Mr. Lucic?

16        A.   Yes.  I see the document, yes.

17        Q.   This is a 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade command reply to the SRK

18     command dated 16 September 1992.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please have page 2 in both versions of

20     the document.

21        Q.   I'm going to refer you to an item under number 3 of the document.

22     On the B/C/S, it is the first bullet on the page that is now on your

23     screen.  In the English, it will be the last bullet on page 2.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now we have both in English on the screen.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And now for the English, I think we still need the

Page 26282

 1     next page.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  In English, it's page 2 focussing on the bottom

 3     of the page, please.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   While that's coming up, I will tell you what this document states

 5     is that:

 6             "Manpower levels of the brigade command consisted of 80 per cent

 7     senior officers already at the beginning and subsequently reached 90

 8     per cent, whereas manpower levels of the battalion commands are 100 per

 9     cent, including all key command positions."

10             Mr. Lucic, according to this report, the battalion commands under

11     the brigade command, including your battalion, were at full manpower

12     levels as of September 1992; is that correct?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Ms. MacGregor asked for page 2 and not for

14     page 3.  Now we are at page 2.  Lower part.

15             Yes, could you answer the question, Witness.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes, I can answer.  What is

17     written is correct.  The battalion command was manned and that was just

18     the command.

19             If you allow me, I can tell you who makes up the command, that is

20     the commander, his deputy commander, then the assistant commander for

21     security affairs, and then the assistant commander for logistics, and

22     then the desk officer for atomic and biological warfare, and then the

23     signals people who are not part of the command.  That would be it.  So

24     this is not a reference to units but to the command.

25             MS. MacGREGOR:

Page 26283

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can move on.  I'm going to be looking now

 3     at -- I think it's page 1 in each document.

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, if you can wait, I haven't yet asked a question.

 5        A.   I wanted to answer the question that you've already put.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The question that was put to you has been answered

 7     and the new question is still to be expected.  Wait for a second.

 8             Ms. MacGregor.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.  We're now looking at the first page

10     of this document, focussing on paragraphs 1 in both versions.

11        Q.   Mr. Lucic, in your statement at paragraph 10, you state:

12             "The SRK mainly conducted defensive operations due to a shortage

13     of manpower."

14             Now, if we look at the first paragraph on the document in front

15     of us, it reads:

16             "The brigade command is 'consistently carrying out the

17     instructions on the persistent safeguarding of the lines reached to date

18     and the bringing about of the conditions for offensives' ..."

19             Mr. Lucic, is it correct that as of September 1992, the brigade

20     command was planning to conduct offensive operations?

21        A.   In September, I was in the command of the battalion; I was the

22     commander.  But the brigade and corps had defence establishment.  This is

23     a reference to the creation of conditions for offensive activities which

24     is a general tactic and strategy of the Army of Republika Srpska to

25     always defend themselves successfully and possibly carry out offensives,

Page 26284

 1     if so planned somewhere.

 2             And over here, it is a reference to units that should exist for

 3     carrying that out, if necessary.  It says here that we are firmly holding

 4     our positions with these forces but the conditions are being created.

 5     Conditions are being created.  That means --

 6        Q.   We only sit in court today until 2.15 and I am doing my best to

 7     use that time efficiently.  If you can please just answer the question

 8     that's put to you.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  I no longer need the document on the screen.

10        Q.   Mr. Lucic, during your testimony in the Karadzic trial, you were

11     asked a question by the Prosecutor and you were asked about the brigade.

12     You testified that in your brigade:

13             "Ammunition was used strictly in a professional manner."

14             And the transcript reference for that is Karadzic, page 30797.

15             Do you stand by that testimony today?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Additionally in your statement, Exhibit D658, in paragraph 24 you

18     state that there was no misuse of ammunition, at least not in your unit.

19             Now, by "unit," are you referring to the brigade or are you

20     referring to the 2nd Mountain Infantry Battalion?

21        A.   Well, battalion, first of all, and then in 1993 when I was

22     transferred to the brigade.

23        Q.   So this statement refers to your knowledge about both your

24     battalion and the brigade in general as you continued to be part of the

25     brigade command through the end of the war.

Page 26285

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 11 of your statement, you refer to how members of

 3     your unit, under your command, opened fire in self-defence and only

 4     against military targets.

 5             Can you again clarify what you mean by your unit under your

 6     command?

 7        A.   The battalion that I commanded, because in the brigade, I was a

 8     professional organ and the brigade was commanded by the commander.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I please have Exhibit P4440.  We'll be on

10     page 1 in the English, page 3 in the B/C/S.

11        Q.   While we wait for the document to come up, Mr. Lucic, this is a

12     warning dated 19 July 1995 from the SRK corps command to several

13     brigades, including the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade.

14             Now, I want to focus on the second paragraph of this document.

15     The first sentence of that second paragraph relates to problems with

16     ammunition production.  despite these problems, SRK forces continued to

17     "spend ammunition as if we had it in abundance."

18             The second sentence of this paragraph states:

19             "That is why we very often fire at inhabited settlements and

20     specific buildings where there are no combat actions whatsoever."

21             Moving to the next paragraph:

22             "It is inexplicable that some brigades spend much less ammunition

23     in repelling three or more fierce attacks during the day than others that

24     fire at inhabited settlements when there are no combat actions."

25             Now at the time that this warning was issued by the SRK corps

Page 26286

 1     command, you were no longer assigned to the 2nd Mountain Infantry

 2     Battalion; is that correct?

 3        A.   I don't see the date here when this order was issued.  I cannot

 4     see the date.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the end of the

 6     witness's statement.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can have page 1 of the B/C/S version.

 8             And to explain to Your Honours and to Defence counsel, the 65 ter

 9     number -- excuse me, the exhibit number includes four pages.  The first

10     two are the telex version of this document.  The second two are the

11     version that was signed by Milosevic.  They're identical in every other

12     way in terms of the text.  If you look here on the first page of the

13     first version of the document, the telex version, you see a handwritten

14     note of the date, and this is reflected in the English translation on the

15     first page.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And it's translated as 1992.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  1995.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Let me just -- no, you're right.  I

19     made mistake.

20             MS. MacGREGOR:

21        Q.   Mr. Lucic, do you see on the first page the handwritten notation

22     of the date, that it seems to say July 19th, 1995?

23        A.   Yes, I see this is not typewritten.  A pen was used.

24        Q.   Is it correct that on that date, you were no longer assigned to

25     the 2nd Mountain Infantry Battalion, which you referred to in

Page 26287

 1     paragraph 11 of your statement?

 2        A.   Yes, correct, I was within the brigade command.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can please have 65 ter 31339, English

 4     page 11, B/C/S page 13.

 5        Q.   Mr. Lucic, what's coming up on your screen is a document you were

 6     shown before during the Karadzic testimony.  It's a range table for a

 7     60-millimetre mortar.  And I'm going to turn to the page that deals

 8     specifically with the range for the fourth charge.

 9             Now, if we look at the bottom left of the chart on the B/C/S

10     version, would you agree, Mr. Lucic, that the maximum range is listed as

11     2.538 metres?

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where do we see that?

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  On the very bottom left-hand corner of the B/C/S

14     version of the table, the last number.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was looking at the English, which is very small.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  May I move on?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you agree that that is what the chart reflects?

20        A.   Down here, I cannot see.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer hear the

22     witness at all.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please adjust your microphone

24     slightly so as to --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I see it in the first column,

Page 26288

 1     2538.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  The Prosecution tenders this into evidence, Your

 3     Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31339 receives number P6791, Your

 6     Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:  And the Prosecution no longer needs the document

 9     on the screen.

10        Q.   Mr. Lucic, before the break, you referred to a proceeding against

11     a soldier with the name Pejanovic for shooting a civilian.  During the

12     break, the Prosecution conducted a quick search of our records of SRK

13     personnel and did not find a soldier with the last name Pejanovic.  The

14     Prosecution did find a record of a soldier for the ABiH with the last

15     name Pejanovic.  Do you recall if the soldier that you were discussing

16     before the break was Serb or Muslim ethnicity?

17        A.   Soldier Pejanovic who fired, well, we did not keep records of

18     ethnic affiliation but he was an ethnic Serb.

19        Q.   Are you saying Bejanovic, starting with B, as a boy; or

20     Pejanovic, starting with P, as in pirate?

21        A.   P.  P.  That soldier was within the 216th and he stayed on within

22     the battalion.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  For the record, Your Honours, the Prosecution

24     searched with a misunderstanding that it was spelled with a B so ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and if we are talking about P or B, Paris, I

Page 26289

 1     think, in both languages would give the clue to the right letter.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Lucic, is it correct that in your battalion, specifically

 4     your battalion, there were no actual prosecutions for violations of

 5     international criminal law?

 6        A.   No, not in my battalion.  While I was commander, no, there was

 7     not a single case.

 8             I'm sorry, maybe I answered a bit too fast.  Could you tell me

 9     what you mean exactly by that?  There were crimes.  There were

10     violations, but at any rate, nothing went unpunished.

11        Q.   By "prosecution," I'm referring to an investigation and a

12     criminal trial proceeding similar to the setting that we're in right now.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that perhaps not the use of the word

14     "prosecutions" may have triggered the problem for the witness but,

15     rather, the words "violations of international criminal law."  I take it

16     by the way that these are violations of international law, although

17     criminal acts -- what Ms. MacGregor apparently is referring to is crimes

18     which are -- do exist in relation to the international law of warfare,

19     that is, attacking civilians, abuse of prisoners, well, that type of what

20     we find in the Geneva Conventions and what we find in other international

21     instruments regulating warfare.  So that's, apparently, I understand

22     Ms. MacGregor was referring to.

23             Do you know of any prosecutions of any military men within your

24     battalion for such violations of the international law of warfare?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.  In my unit, the

Page 26290

 1     unit I commanded, the battalion, there was not a single case of any

 2     violation of these provisions of international law, and no one was tried

 3     before an international court or a national court in that sense, as far

 4     as I know.

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   I have a few questions for you now about your assignment after

 7     January 1993.

 8             In paragraph 6 of your statement, you state that the command of

 9     the 1st Romanija Infantry Brigade changed locations several times.  Is it

10     correct by the time that you were moved to the brigade command at the end

11     of January 1993 it was located at Han Pijesak?

12        A.   I was transferred in the beginning of February to the brigade

13     command.  At that time, or before that, the barracks of the

14     216th Mountain Brigade of the JNA was the barracks in Han Pijesak.

15     However, when mobilisation was carried out, so that was earlier on -- so

16     at that time, that part of the brigade, except for part of the logistics,

17     was in the territory of Lukavica, that is to say, eastern Sarajevo.

18        Q.   Can you please answer just the question.  Where was the brigade

19     command located as of February 1993, please.

20        A.   In February 1993, the command of the brigade was in the area

21     between Pale and Han Derventa where the road to Sarajevo and Sokolac

22     forks off, so perhaps about 17 kilometres away from Sarajevo in some

23     facility that was called Alpina.

24        Q.   And at what point was it relocated to Han Pijesak?

25        A.   When the brigade left its home barracks, as it were, in 1995, it

Page 26291

 1     was never again retransferred to Han Pijesak.

 2        Q.   My question was when was it first at Han Pijesak.

 3        A.   We are talking about two structures of the brigade.  Han Pijesak

 4     was the location of the 216th Mountain Brigade of the Yugoslav People's

 5     Army until 1991.

 6        Q.   I'm putting up my hand because we have a lot of evidence already

 7     on this topic.  And what I actually want to clarify, in the interest of

 8     time, is were you outside of Sarajevo starting in February 1993 until the

 9     end of the war?

10        A.   The brigade command was outside of Sarajevo but one part of the

11     units was located there, facing the 1st Corps of the BH army.

12        Q.   My question was about your location from February of 1993 until

13     the end of the war.  Not the location of different parts of the brigade

14     command but you personally.

15        A.   I personally was in the Alpina building between Pale and

16     Han Derventa.  From Pale to Han Derventa is 7 kilometres, and the Alpina

17     building is halfway.  And Han Derventa is 16 or around 16 kilometres from

18     Sarajevo.

19        Q.   In the Karadzic trial, transcript --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we -- before we -- Mr. Stojanovic, if we want

21     Mr. Mladic to speak at a low volume, then you should come closer to him

22     rather than to keep on your earphones and receiving from a distance what

23     he says by far too loud.  So that's my instruction for you.

24             Ms. MacGregor, would you have any indication as to how much time

25     you would still need because we are at a point where we have to adjourn

Page 26292

 1     soon.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  I have one final question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One final question.  And then we'll see whether

 4     Mr. Ivetic has further questions and whether we could extend the session

 5     in such a way so that the witness could return before the weekend.

 6             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put that question to the witness.

 8             MS. MacGREGOR:

 9        Q.   In the Karadzic trial, transcript reference 30796, you testified

10     that once you moved to the brigade command in 1993, you were "mostly

11     focused on organising defence towards Gorazde and the Nisici plateau."

12             Do you stand by that testimony?

13        A.   Yes, but that term "organising" is something I would not accept.

14     The defence was already in existence but not in full.  There were some

15     areas that were not defended, so it was a question of organising units to

16     defend such areas.  It was not that I was organising something anew.  And

17     that was, of course, on the orders of the commander.  He specifically

18     directed me to that battalion whose command was in Podgrab to deal with

19     this.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You have explained that you used the word

21     "organising" as not setting up something from zero but that it was busy

22     with the continued organisation of.

23             Any further questions, Ms. MacGregor.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, how much time would you need?

Page 26293

 1             MR. IVETIC:  I would potentially have just one or two questions,

 2     if we could.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest to all of those supporting us to

 4     assist in a briefly extended session so that the witness, who would

 5     otherwise have to stay over until Monday, could return home.

 6             I see no one jumping up.  I hear no major complaints.

 7             Well, no loud speaking under whatever circumstances, Mr. Mladic.

 8             Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I've told that we have no problem with continuing

10     the session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then that's appreciated, especially if that is

12     what Mr. Mladic brought to your attention.  I exceptionally would accept

13     loud speaking under those circumstances.

14             Please put that one or two questions to the witness, Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we could please call up again

16     Exhibit P4440.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

18        Q.   While we wait for that, sir, I can refresh your recollection.

19     This was the document dated July of 1995 that was shown to you by

20     Madam Prosecutor, the warning from the SRK commander.  And I want to ask

21     you, sir, at this date, did the line of defence of your brigade include

22     or face Sarajevo?

23        A.   At the time when this document was written, the 1st Romanija

24     Infantry Brigade did not have this front line of defence facing Sarajevo.

25     It had changed its location, that is to say, its area of defence, and was

Page 26294

 1     in the Nisic plateau area with its corps forces directed at the forces

 2     from Tuzla, Zenica, that is to say, the 1st Corps of the BH army.  The

 3     line of defence faced Vares and Central Bosnia.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the witness has answered your question.  So,

 5     therefore, you could intervene.

 6             Next question, please.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Next question.  Were there any populated areas in the line of

 9     defence as -- that you have just described to us?

10        A.   Ahead of that line, half of the area of defence faced a forested

11     mountain area of Mount Zvezda, and another part faced hills and grazing

12     fields where there were villages but they were only partially populated

13     at that time.  That's where the line went through.  Ahead of us where we

14     were firing, there were no populated areas or civilians.  There was

15     nothing apart from the enemy army that was launching that very strong

16     offensive with the objective of linking up with its corps in Sarajevo.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I think the witness now goes beyond your

18     question.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, and I was waiting for the translation to

20     complete.  And I have no further questions.

21        Q.   Thank you again, Colonel, for answering my questions?

22             MR. IVETIC:  And thank you to everyone for the indulgence of a

23     few -- ten minutes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, any questions?

25             The Bench, Mr. Lucic, also has no further questions for you.

Page 26295

 1     Therefore, this concludes your evidence in this court.  I'd like to thank

 2     you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having answered

 3     all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties or by

 4     the Bench, and I would like to wish you a safe return home again.

 5             You may follow the usher.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, but not after having thanked

 9     all those assisting us for making it possible for this witness to return

10     home before the weekend.  It's really highly appreciated.

11             We will resume Monday, the 29th of September, 9.30 in the morning

12     in this same courtroom, I.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.26 p.m.

14                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of

15                           September, 2014 at 9.00 a.m.