1 Monday, 29 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic can wait for a second. He should --
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] He doesn't hear.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any technical problem but no time for
15 consultation after this delay of half an hour, Mr. Stojanovic, because I
16 will say something about it. Informally, the Chamber received the
17 following report about the late arrival of Mr. Mladic. The transport
18 police team leader indicated that Mr. Mladic did not agree with the
19 starting time of 9.00 today. Furthermore, he would have indicated that
20 he does not want to arrive half an hour before his trial starts.
21 Therefore, this morning he was not ready to depart the UNDU when the
22 transport police arrived.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, let one thing be very clear, unless there is a
24 motion by the Defence, which of course we'll deal with, Mr. Mladic should
25 be ready to come to the premises of this Tribunal at the time as
1 determined by this Chamber.
2 If Mr. Mladic considers it too early, it's fine. Not being ready
3 will be considered by this Chamber as a clear and explicit waiver to be
4 present at his trial.
5 Therefore, if we get a similar report tomorrow, we'll just start
6 and at the first break, Mr. Mladic will have an opportunity to join us,
7 and that he misses the first part in court is his problem. It is the
8 result of a waiver of his right to be present at trial.
9 Let that be clear. I'm not going to spend any further words on
10 it. It would be a further waste of time.
11 No loud speaking, no loud speaking. Mr. Mladic, you have caused
12 already sufficient delay today. You have -- unless necessary at this
13 moment for urgent matters, you have an opportunity to speak to counsel
14 during the break.
15 Then I have to correct myself, I earlier said that we expected
16 Judge Fluegge to be back tomorrow. That will be the day after tomorrow.
17 It also means that the absence of Judge Fluegge for urgent personal
18 reasons will not be longer than the five days provided for in the Rules,
19 five working days.
20 Then if the Defence is ready to call its next witness,
21 Mr. Stojanovic, you have an opportunity to do so.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. Could we
23 kindly call Witness Zoran Durmic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
25 Ms. Bibles.
1 MS. BIBLES: Thank you Your Honour, good morning. I would like
2 to introduce Mr. Jonathan MacDonald, who will be representing the Office
3 of the Prosecution and he will be cross-examining the next witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for introducing Mr. MacDonald, Ms. Bibles.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Durmic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, I'd like to invite you to
9 make the solemn declaration for which the text is now handed out to you
10 by the usher.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
12 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth
13 and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Durmic. Please be seated.
15 WITNESS: ZORAN DURMIC
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Durmic, you will first be examined by
17 Mr. Stojanovic. You find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel
18 for Mr. Mladic.
19 Please proceed.
20 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Durmic.
22 A. Good morning, Mr. Stojanovic.
23 Q. I would kindly ask you for the record and slowly to tell us your
24 full name.
25 A. My name is Zoran Durmic. I was born on the 15th of October,
2 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Chamber whether at one time,
3 you gave a statement, a written statement to the Defence team of
4 Radovan Karadzic for the trial of Radovan Karadzic?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please have
7 in e-court document under 65 ter 1D04284.
8 Q. Mr. Durmic, can you see in front of you the statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the last
11 page of this document.
12 Q. On this last page, do you see the signature and the date, 12th
13 February, 2013?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is this your signature and is this the date that you put in
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this, during preparations for your
19 appearance here in this courtroom --
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we, before that, look at
21 paragraph 27 of this witness's statement.
22 Q. -- did you indicate in paragraph 27 that it was necessary in the
23 second sentence to add the word "nearly," and then the text would go on
24 to read, "Nearly all Serbian villages were burned to the ground."
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. And let us now look at paragraph 40 of your
2 statement. Did you suggest to me that the meaning of your answers would
3 have been different if a correction would be made so that after the word,
4 "there were no killings of the Muslims captives" there would be a full
5 stop and then it should go on to say "According to what I heard from my
6 colleagues when I revisited the location," and then the text would go on
7 to read: "They were taken somewhere by buses, I think to Bratunac or
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, today, after you have made these two
11 corrections, would you give the same answers to the same questions after
12 you have made a solemn declaration and are these questions and answers,
13 or rather, the latter given to the best of your recollection?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now is the time
16 for me to ask this statement of Durmic Zoran to be admitted into evidence
17 which is marked 1D04284.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4284 receives number D659,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D659 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,
23 I'm going to read the summary of this witness's statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Before the outbreak of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Zoran Durmic
2 was deployed with the reserve police force of the Vlasenica SJB in the
3 police station in Milici MUP.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, we don't have the summary
5 in English.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, have you distributed the summary in
7 English to the booth? You say yes, but the booth reports to me that they
8 have not received it.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I distributed only a B/C/S
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you then please read slowly.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand.
13 He testifies about the interethnic incidents, that the -- he
14 processed as a criminal investigator. He highlighted one of the events
15 when he and his colleagues were disarmed and detained.
16 He says that he knows that the Muslims were speedily arming
17 themselves and preparing for war by obtaining and acquiring weapons which
18 was spearheaded by the commander of the Vlasenica SJB, the leadership of
19 the SDA, and the leader of the religious community in Vlasenica.
20 In discharging his professional duties, he is aware of an attack
21 made by the Muslims on the 21st of May, 1992, in the area of Zutica
22 village when they killed nine Serbian workers, as well as about the
23 incident of 27th of May, 1992, where in the area of Konjevic Polje, five
24 drivers of the bauxite mine were killed in an ambush and the company
25 lorry was set alight.
1 Then, this was followed by attacks on the Serbian villages on a
2 daily basis, the expulsion of the population and the looting of their
4 He also spoke about what he knew about the tragic events of the
5 16th of May, 1992, in the village of Zaklopaca when several Muslims were
6 killed. He emphasised that this was not a planned or an organised action
8 Commenting the documents, he gave information about the treatment
9 of the captured deputy commander of the Srpska detachment in relation to
10 his exchange.
11 Finally, he speaks about his direct tasks and his perception of
12 the situation along the Milici-Djugum road on 13th of July,
13 1992 [as interpreted], and on the situation on that same day on the
14 football playground in Kasaba where he saw a large group of Muslim
16 That would be the summary of the statement.
17 I would kindly ask that on page 7, line 12 of the transcript, it
18 should read 13th of July, 1995 instead of 1992. Thank you.
19 Thank you.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Durmic, I would like to ask you a few questions. Let us
21 look at paragraph 27 of your statement.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And for the transcript and for
23 the record it bears the mark of D659.
24 Q. In it, you speak --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't understand what
1 the witness said.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You will get it in a moment.
4 Can you see it now?
5 A. Yes, I can.
6 Q. Thank you. When you say after the correction that we made today
7 that nearly all the Serbian villages were burned to the ground, can you
8 be specific and tell the Chamber which villages in your area were burned
9 by the Muslims.
10 A. These are the villages of Valcici [phoen], Metaljka, Vuksici,
11 Bukovica, Erici, Vasiljevici, part of Visnjica, Rupovo Brdo, Podravanje
12 where about 30 residents perished, then the open pit bauxite mine,
13 Milici-Bracan where eight guards were killed, two were found totally
14 charred and three were ran over by a tank. That was the most atrocious
15 crime that I saw in my whole career in the police force.
16 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 34 of your statement, D659, you speak
17 about a document and a letter in the drafting of which you participated
18 as well with a view to stopping the exchange of Mirsad Sulejmanovic who
19 at the time was the deputy commander of the Cer platoon.
20 Will you please tell the Chamber more specifically whether you
21 know what was the final outcome in the case of Mirsad Sulejmanovic and
22 whether the exchange was carried out of him as member of the BH army?
23 A. In front of Milici public security station on behalf of the
24 station, we sent a letter to the staff and the commission for the
25 exchange and the Sarajevo security services centre that was our superior
1 to the effect that Mirsad Sulejmanovic was the deputy of the Cer
2 detachment, not the platoon as you stated. Every day, they were
3 launching attacks on the Serbian villages that I listed a while ago, and
4 we requested that this exchange be halted, that this person should be
5 processed before competent courts. However, they proceeded with the
6 exchange, most probably because that was in the better interest because
7 he was exchanged for a large number of Serbs.
8 This person still lives somewhere in the United States or in
9 Canada because I saw him some time ago.
10 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 38 of your statement, you speak about
11 the events of 1995 and you say that at one point, you and your unit
12 occupied the road and that on that occasion, on the playground, football
13 playground in Kasaba you saw a large group of Muslims who were guarded by
14 soldiers of our army.
15 Let me first ask you this, can you be more specific and tell the
16 Chamber when exactly was that when you were passing by the football
17 playground in Kasaba and I mean which part of the day?
18 A. As far as I can remember, it was between 12.00 and 1.00 but I
19 think that was closer to the noon.
20 Q. My second question is when you say you saw a large group of
21 Muslims, could you please tell the Chamber in your view, what is a large
22 group of Muslims?
23 A. Well, according to my visual assessment, I might say that there
24 were approximately 100 men. I don't think there were more than that.
25 They might have even been fewer than that.
1 Q. Were these people standing, sitting on the ground, lying on the
3 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly. Some of them were sitting, some
4 were lying. It was in the part of the playground closer to the main road
5 so I was some 50 or 60 metres away. So if you take into account the size
6 of the playground and my view, I saw a few lads whom I didn't know who
7 were wearing uniforms.
8 Q. The deployment of your unit along the Milici-Djugum road, where
9 exactly were your soldiers and how far were they from the playground?
10 A. This was not exactly a police unit. It was just a number of
11 police officers who had already been deployed in that area. I joined
12 them the following day because I had bereavement in my family so on the
13 date when I arrived there around 12.00 noon, I found them in the area of
14 Djugum. In my opinion this is some 300 or 400 metres away from the
15 playground but there is a curve that blocks the view of the playground
16 and one cannot see the situation there.
17 We held about 200 metres of this road, a section of 200 or 300
18 metres, I cannot tell you exactly but we did occupy the road.
19 Q. Thank you. In the next paragraph, number 39, you speak about an
20 incident that you yourself witnessed when one of the wounded Muslims said
21 that Zulfo Tursunovic had wounded him in Bokcin Potok, that he had killed
22 the brother and many others who had intended to surrender. Can you tell
23 me where did this happen exactly, can you briefly tell the Chamber?
24 A. Well, that happened when I was going to join the police that was
25 already deployed on the road in order to give them certain instructions
1 and to see whether they needed food. While I was driving in a car along
2 the main road, I recognised medical staff from the regional hospital
3 Milici and Dr. Sveto who was taking care of someone.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please slow down. The
6 interpreters have difficulties following you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will. So when I arrived in the
8 vehicle on the left-hand side, in the upper right-hand corner of the
9 playground, near the corner, I saw an ambulance and ambulance crew. I
10 recognised the medical staff from the Milici regional hospital,
11 Dr. Sveto Marinkovic or Svetozar Marinkovic was among them. I stopped
12 there and I asked the doctor who's been wounded. I was afraid that it
13 might have been some of the policemen or one of the policemen.
14 He said no, they were taking the wounded Muslims out. I got out
15 of the car, I greeted him and I saw a middle-aged man who was being
16 offered medical assistance. He was on his left-hand side. He was lying
17 on his left side and I noticed that there was an entry wound. [No
19 JUDGE ORIE: We don't receive translation.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology, the microphone was off.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The nurse was offering him
22 treatment and asked him, Where were you wounded. He said, Go to
23 Bokcin Potok.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed with your next question. Or before
25 we continue, could I ask you one clarifying question.
1 When you are saying the upper right-hand corner of the playground
2 near the corner, are you talking about the Kasaba football pitch?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I was looking at it
4 from the direction of Milici, that's the direction that I was coming
5 from. So that's why I said the upper right-hand corner.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Q. And I will conclude with this question. Mr. Durmic, could you
9 explain for the benefit of the Court, how long did you stay in that area
10 when you arrived there and where did you return to?
11 A. Well, I stayed there for about ten minutes and I then continued
12 in the direction of Djugum which is where I met this police officers who
13 had already been deployed there. I really don't know who deployed them
14 there but I was told that I should convey them the task they had. They
15 had to secure the road and ensure that it was not cut off or that it
16 didn't come under threat. Traffic should be able to pass through
18 Q. And having completed that task, did you return from that sector?
19 A. Afterwards, I returned to the police in Milici. I didn't linger
20 at the playground, I went on to the Milici police station.
21 Q. And could you please just inform the Court of the following when
22 the wounded man said -- when the Muslim said go to Bokcin Potok, could
23 you tell the Court, because it's difficult for us to see where that is,
24 could you tell the Court where Bokcin Potok is actually located?
25 A. To be quite frank, I've never been there. It's in the Bratunac
1 area, in the municipality of Bratunac. I think it's between Buljim and
2 Kravica. As far as I know it would be somewhere in that area.
3 Q. Is that the direction that the 28th Division of the BH army was
4 heading in?
5 A. I assume so.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour,
8 just a moment.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Take your time.
10 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I do apologise. I've been told the full sentence hasn't been
13 recorded when you interrupted because the court wasn't receiving any
14 interpretation. What did that wounded member, Muslim member say when the
15 nurse was treating his wound, she asked him where were you wounded and he
16 said well, you should go to Bokcin Potok, 1.000 people who were dead
17 there, the son of Zulfo killed us and she said how.
18 A. He cursed our refugee mothers because we wanted to surrender and
19 he wouldn't allow this. And then she asked him, Where are you from if
20 you're a refugee? He said, I'm from Didici [phoen], and he continued
21 crying out and he said oh my dear mother, he's killed my brother.
22 Q. And after this amendment has been made in paragraph 40, could you
23 tell us the following, at what time of day or at what time in the evening
24 when you went to that section of the road again, what time of day or what
25 time of the evening was it when you went to that road?
1 A. It was not quite dark. It was dusk, I would say. I went
2 there -- I was told the policemen would spend the night there so I took
3 them some canvasses, some tents so that they didn't have to sleep out in
4 the open. It was summertime so it could have been half past 8.00 or
5 9.00, something like that.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Durmic. I just wanted to complete your statement.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now, Your Honour, I would
8 now like to tender the documents that we have used with this witness or
9 for this witness. There are six such documents.
10 Can I read them all out or should I go one by one? 1D --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first try to find out whether there will be
12 any objections because if so, then we will take them one by one. If not,
13 you can read them all six immediately. Mr. MacDonald.
14 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution only
15 objected to one associated exhibit. I discussed this with my friend
16 prior to the witness's examination in chief and I understand he's not
17 going to tender it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So whatever the witness -- what
19 Mr. Stojanovic will tender there are no objections. Then you can read
20 them in one round, Mr. Stojanovic. So if you read the five numbers then
21 Madam Registrar will in the same sequence will assign numbers to them and
22 the Chamber will decide on admission.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'd like to
24 tender the following documents: 65 ter documents 1D04285, and then
25 1D04286, 1D04287, and 1D04288.
1 As my young colleague said, in that case, we won't tender the
2 last document on the list, 1D04287 [as interpreted].
3 JUDGE ORIE: So the six from become five and one of the five will
4 not be tendered. That makes four all together.
5 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour. I understand the transcript
6 and the interpretation recorded the one not to be tendered as 04287. I
7 believe that should be 04289, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, otherwise there will be one document
9 which you do and do not tender at the same time. Is the correction made
10 by Mr. MacDonald accurate?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think it's correct. I think
12 the number is correct. Let me just be quite sure. It's only the last
13 one, 04289 that I won't be tendering.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, 1D04285 through 88 would
15 receive numbers ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Numbers D660 up and including D663, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D660 up and including D663 are admitted into
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one question for the witness before
21 we --
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Witness, in your statement you said that the wounded men who
25 addressed you said, He killed my brother and many others. Today, you
1 make that -- you mentioned a number of a thousand. What's -- what
2 happened that where earlier "many" were mentioned it's now a thousand.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could I clarify this?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm asking you to tell me what happened that
5 your testimony in this respect developed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm quoting the wounded Muslim who
7 was being given medical assistance. He wasn't talking to me. He was
8 talking to the medical staff and this is what I heard, of course I was at
9 a distance of two or three metres from him.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's not the issue for me whether he
11 addressed the nurses or whether he addressed you. But earlier, you
12 stated that he would have said that many were killed or that -- yes, he
13 killed my brother and many others, whereas today you come with a number
14 of thousand.
15 What happened in that your statement that we find "many" and what
16 is it that today you tell us that he said "thousand".
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What he said was, Go to
18 Bokcin Potok, thousands have been killed there or there are a thousand
19 dead there, perhaps there was a typo, something was perhaps misprinted.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, in your statement, the statement you signed --
21 you confirmed, you would have said, "He killed my brother and many
22 others. And then as far as Bokcin Potok is concerned you said there are
23 masses of dead people without giving a number and today you give us a
24 number of a thousand. What happened that today it's a thousand and
25 earlier it was masses or many? What happened that you suddenly come up
1 with the number of a thousand.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing in particular. I quite
3 simply remembered what was said. There were many dead. Well, that means
4 that the number was a large number.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Many dead doesn't mean that it's a large number but
6 in itself -- but apparently since you confirmed your statement where you
7 made small corrections, you now since half an hour ago, you remember that
8 a thousand was mentioned by this man.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, very well, let it be a large
10 number as I said in this statement. It wasn't my intention to obstruct
11 these proceedings in any way.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No it's not about obstructing. What I would like to
13 know is what the man said. And what explains the different versions of
14 what you tell us the man had said. What did he say, did he say a
15 thousand or did he say many or did he say masses or what did he say? If
16 you don't remember, just tell us.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said that a mass of people had
18 been killed in Bokcin Potok, a large number of people, Zulfo and his
19 henchmen had done this because they had decided to surrender and he --
20 JUDGE ORIE: That part is clear so the thousand of today was just
21 a conclusion you translated a mass of people in being a thousand. Is
22 that correctly understood?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps this was a personal
24 conclusion that I drew.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Mr. MacDonald, we have still ten minutes until the break. Are
2 you ready to start your cross-examination?
3 MR. MacDONALD: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Durmic, you will now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. MacDonald. Mr. MacDonald is counsel for the Prosecution. You find
6 him to your right.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:
10 Q. Good morning, Witness.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Witness, after you were called up to the Milici police office in
13 February or March 1992, did you continue to work there throughout the
15 A. I was called up on the 22nd of September, 1991 pursuant to an
16 order from Mr. Delimustafic, the Ministry of the Interior --
17 Q. If I can just stop you there, Witness. I appreciate you were
18 called up in 1991. I understand you then went to back to work and were
19 called up once again in February or March of 1992; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's right. In February or March.
21 Q. Did you continue to work from that time throughout the conflict
22 in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes. You mean in the police force?
24 Q. Yes. Did you continue to work in the police force?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is it correct that the police station in Milici became an SJB
2 around mid-May of 1992?
3 A. I don't know of the exact date but after the municipality of
4 Milici had been established, I believe that an SJB public security
5 station was established. It was in the second half of May, 1992, I
6 think, but I'm not certain. I don't have that information.
7 Q. Is it correct that Radomir Bjelanovic became the chief of SJB
8 Milici when SJB Milici was established?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And did Radomir Bjelanovic and SJB Milici report to CSB Sarajevo
11 and its chief, Zoran Cvijetic?
12 A. The Milici SJB was under the Sarajevo CSB. As to whether
13 Zoran Cvijetic was the chief of the CSB at the time, I'm not sure. I'm
14 not sure that that was the case from the outset. He was the chief at one
15 point in time but I don't know whether it was from the very beginning.
16 Q. Turning to SJB Milici, Witness, were there duty officers who
17 worked there on a daily basis?
18 A. Yes, as in the case of all other SJBs, it did have a duty roster,
19 it did have duty officers.
20 Q. Am I correct in saying that the task of the duty officer was to
21 record the significant events of any one day?
22 A. Well, that's what the task was. If citizens wanted to have a
23 record made of any -- of anything that had changed, the details would be
24 taken down by those who were working the relevant shift.
25 Q. How many police officers worked at SJB Milici when it was first
1 established, Witness?
2 A. I couldn't say what the exact number was. At the time, I was
3 still a reserve policeman. I don't know the exact number of those
4 employed at the time because there were five or six criminal policemen in
5 the police station, they were maintained there and later others joined
6 but I don't know the exact numbers.
7 Q. Am I correct in saying the number changed from day to day as
8 police officers went to aid the army?
9 A. Well, that's quite possible, depending on the situation on the
10 ground, on how complex the situation was in the territory of the
11 municipality. The numbers probably changed, as I said. I'm not quite
12 sure when it comes to the numbers of employees in the SJB.
13 Q. With regard to police officers going to help the army, do you
14 know how the army communicated with the SJB on how many numbers it needed
15 on a day-to-day basis?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. I believe it would
17 be necessary to specify the period concerned for such a vague question.
18 Which period does this question relate to?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, did you have any specific period in
20 mind or did you mean the whole of the time the witness served in Milici.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Perhaps, Your Honour, I can specify it to May and
22 June of 1992 for the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then please repeat the question with
24 this specification.
25 MR. MacDONALD:
1 Q. Witness, with regard to police officers going to help the army,
2 in May and June of 1992, do you know how the army communicated with the
3 SJB regarding how many police officers it needed on a day-to-day basis?
4 A. I don't know. This concerned the chief and the commander. It
5 wasn't within my purview. I wasn't there. I don't know how they
6 communicated, how this was done.
7 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if this point the Prosecution could have
8 65 ter number 10705, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think when it's brought to our screens, we might
10 also -- unless you can finish it in one or two questions, otherwise I
11 would deal with the matter after the break.
12 MR. MacDONALD: I do only have one or two questions on this,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll listen to the answers of these limited
15 number of questions then take the break afterwards.
16 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. MacDONALD:
19 Q. Witness, on the first page in the heading, we see that this is a
20 report being sent to a Mr. Zoran Cvijetic at CSB Sarajevo dated the
21 3rd of August in 1992.
22 MR. MacDONALD: And if we can move to the last page in both
23 documents. That's page 2 in the B/C/S and 4 in the English. I believe
24 we need the next page in the English if possible, please. Thank you.
25 Q. Witness, I'm right in saying this is being sent by
1 Radomir Bjelanovic, the chief of Milici SJB who was your chief at the
2 time; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MacDONALD: Can we please stay on the second page in the
5 B/C/S and page 3 in the English.
6 Q. Witness, if I can take you to the paragraph beginning paragraph
7 B. In the English it is at the top of the page, in the B/C/S, about
8 halfway down.
9 This paragraph, the first few lines describe a number of
10 policemen and that they were engaged in combat activity in May, June and
11 July of 1992; is that correct?
12 A. This report was drafted by the chief of the public security
13 station. This is the first time that I'm seeing this document and I
14 really cannot comment on what he has written.
15 Q. Very well. One final question then. The last paragraph before
16 the letter C on the page, the first line states:
17 "There were no problems with regards the cooperation and
19 In your experience, Witness, is it accurate to say there were no
20 problems with regard to cooperation and command?
21 A. Well, I don't know what he meant. I personally didn't have any
22 problems. Now, what he understood to be problems, I really cannot
23 comment. This letter being authored by him, I don't know what kind of
24 reports he sent and what he did in general. Believe me, I don't know.
25 Q. Okay. But you personally didn't have any problem with regards to
1 cooperation and command between the army and the police?
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the witness said, I think,
3 Mr. MacDonald.
4 Before we take the break, could I ask you one additional
5 question, Witness. This report apart from the fact that you've never
6 seen it before, describes that six times in May with about 30 policemen,
7 the police station was engaged in combat activity. Does this ring a bell
8 to you that for such a number of days in the month of May, 30 policemen
9 were engaged in combat?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, he might have
11 inferred here that the overall engagement was about 30, when you put them
12 all together, not on each occasion.
13 As for combat activities, the major problem that the police had
14 was to secure the Milici mine road because this road had been constantly
15 cut off by Muslim formations. They were taking prisoners.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So apparently you have some knowledge about members
17 of the police station being engaged in combat activities and you're
18 describing them now in a bit further detail.
19 Were you, yourself, ever engaged in combat activities?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'd like to tell you is that
21 the number of 30 policemen might mean --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what I'd like you to do is to answer my
23 question. Were you, yourself, ever engaged in combat activities being
24 sent from the police station?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: What kind of combat activities were you engaged in?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were involved in providing
3 security of the road just like in the incident when the bus with
4 passengers was captured at the bauxite mine. On another occasion, our
5 patrol was captured which necessitated for us to secure the road between
6 Milici and the bauxite mine because more than 25 employees of the mine
7 had been killed on that road on their way from or to work. We were even
8 involved in loading and unloading the bauxite ore.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You never were engaged -- did your engagement lead
10 to any exchange of fire with Muslim forces?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I personally I cannot
12 remember. Not me personally.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
14 We'll take a break after the witness has left the courtroom. You
15 may follow the usher.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, in your summary, you said something
21 about the witness emphasising that a certain action in which Muslims were
22 killed was not organised, et cetera.
23 The only thing I read, apart from that the incident is not
24 described in any further detail, that it was part of combat. It didn't
25 say anything else so therefore I had some difficulties in following you
1 in that summary but I leave it to that.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
4 That's paragraph 30 and 31 of the witness statement where he provides
5 more details.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that in 31 there is more emphasis on
7 nobody had planned it. What exactly happened is still pretty unclear
8 from both paragraph 30 and paragraph 31 but we have to live with that.
9 Mr. MacDonald, please continue.
10 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour. Before I do, the
11 Prosecution would seek to tender the document we were discussing just
12 before the break, that is 65 ter 10705.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10705 receives number P6792,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
17 MR. MacDONALD:
18 Q. Witness, I would now like to turn to a new topic. With regard to
19 Vlasenica municipality, do you know roughly the percentages of Muslims
20 and Serbs in that municipality in 1991?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. MacDonald, it's recorded on the transcript
23 your question doesn't mention the name of the municipality, would you
24 like to mention that please.
25 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour. I was referring to
1 Vlasenica municipality.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
3 MR. MacDONALD:
4 JUDGE ORIE: One additional question, Mr. MacDonald.
5 Did you seek to establish the awareness of the witness or did you
6 seek to establish the numerical strength of the various ethnic groups.
7 MR. MacDONALD: I was seeking to establish the numerical strength
8 of the ethnic groups.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Typically a matter to agree upon with the defence.
10 I mean 1991 census is there so if you want to establish that, I could
11 not -- I would imagine that there would be no dispute about that. Could
12 you please keep that in mind for any other matters. Please proceed.
13 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. One last question, Witness, with regards to an ethnic breakdown.
15 Are you aware of whether Zaklopaca was a predominantly Muslim or Serbian
16 village in 1991 before the conflict?
17 A. It was a mixed village. Zaklopaca itself, one part of the
18 population was Muslim, whereas the villages closer to Zaklopaca were
19 populated by Serbs.
20 Q. Witness, at the start of the cross-examination, you mentioned
21 that Milici municipality was established and at that time SJB Milici was
22 also established. Are you aware of when the municipality of Vlasenica
23 was divided and Milici municipality was established from that?
24 A. I don't know that. I don't have that information.
25 Q. Very well.
1 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02894 on
2 the screen.
3 Q. Now, Witness, you'll see from the screen this is a protocol on
4 the agreement of the territorial partition of Vlasenica municipality.
5 I'm not going to ask you with regards to the verification of this
6 document but I would like to ask you one question regarding something
7 contained within it.
8 MR. MacDONALD: Can we please have page 6 in the B/C/S and page 4
9 in the English.
10 Q. Witness, at the top of your page, the very first paragraph --
11 MR. MacDONALD: And for the benefit of Your Honours, the very
12 last paragraph in the English --
13 Q. -- am I right in saying that it reads, "According to the
14 principle of ethnicity, certain settlements including Zaklopaca, the
15 Muslim part, should be part of the Muslim municipality of Vlasenica."
16 Do you see that, sir?
17 A. I can see it in this document but as a matter of fact, I am not
18 able to comment on this document. This was done and drafted by
19 politicians and I don't know exactly who they were.
20 Q. Yes. Thank you, Witness.
21 MR. MacDONALD: Can the Prosecution please now have 65 ter 31350.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, I don't know what your question would
23 have been if the witness would not have said that he cannot comment on
24 anything politicians have created, which, by of way, of course, doesn't
25 prevent you asking questions about what happened. I have no idea what
1 you had on your mind but apparently the effect that the witness cannot
2 comment on something created by politicians seems to keep you from asking
3 any further questions, which makes me curious to know what you would have
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honours. I hope to proceed with
7 this line of questioning nevertheless.
8 Q. With regard to this document, Witness, this is a decision to
9 create an assembly of the Serbian people in the municipality of
11 MR. MacDONALD: And if we can scroll down to the bottom in both
12 documents. Yes. Thank you.
13 Q. If I can take you to point 2 of this document, and I believe in
14 the English it's roughly eight lines down, and the B/C/S, roughly ten
15 lines down. The area of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica will
16 include -- and do you see the village Zaklopaca there, Witness?
17 A. Which line?
18 Q. I believe it's line ten in the B/C/S, although I must admit, my
19 B/C/S is far from perfect.
20 A. Yes, I can see it.
21 Q. And am I right in saying, Witness, that in this document, there
22 is no differentiation between the Muslim part and the Serbian part, it is
23 the entire village that is included.
24 A. As I told you, this document and these political decisions is
25 really something that I am unable to comment. The people who drafted
1 this or who had this meeting are better placed to comment on this and
2 they would probably paint a better picture for you of the whole
4 Q. I wonder then if we can remain on this topic here, Witness, and
5 turn to the day of the 16th of May, 1992.
6 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if we can bring the witness's statement
7 up on to the screen, that's D659, and look at paragraph 30.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. MacDonald, that previous document, the decision,
9 is there any date known for that?
10 MR. MacDONALD: Unfortunately, that document is undated in our
11 collection, Your Honour, but I believe there is a witness coming with
12 whom we could explore.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we hear from that witness. Please
15 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, in paragraph 30, the first thing I would like to clarify
17 you speak about being at Opetci where the Muslims attacked and you
18 describe it as an exceptionally strong Muslim attack, the fighting went
19 on for several hours.
20 For the sake of clarity, Witness, can you explain how that
21 accords with the fact you don't recall being in combat with the Muslim
23 A. On that day, the 16th of May, the road was being unblocked and I
24 can show you that on the map, that's a regional road between Milici and
25 Zeleni Jadar in the village of Zutica. The road passes along the Jadar
1 river valley, the territorial forces were engaged in fierce fighting with
2 paramilitary Muslim forces who had cut off the road and they were pushed
3 towards the village of Opetci. The task of the police was to occupy the
4 free area so that from certain points we would be able to check this road
5 in order to avoid the repetition of what had happened earlier.
6 I told you that we lost more than 20 people on their way to work.
7 However, there was fierce fighting up there. The Muslims broke through
8 the line, pushed the territorial forces, penetrated the territory in
9 depth and the result was a total mayhem.
10 These people returned to Milici at around 10.00 in the evening
11 and we arrive in the evening hours. During that attack and this
12 fighting, four persons were killed. Among them was one of my colleagues
13 from the bauxite mine where I used to work. He was a member of the Brkic
14 family and I heard that it had occurred in Zaklopaca.
15 Let me clarify. When you view it from the town of Milic --
16 Zutica is -- very well.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Zaklopaca in a moment. You
18 speak about the Muslims breaking through the line. Did you engage in
19 combat with the Muslim forces at any time, you personally.
20 A. We were in this liberated part of the territory as I said a while
21 ago. I said if we had had a map, I could have explained to you the
22 situation on the ground. The task of the police was to control the road
23 from various points because this road passes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the simple question is whether you
25 personally were engaged in combat.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were not personally involved in
2 any shooting or fighting. We did not clash there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's an answer to the question. Next question,
4 please, Mr. MacDonald.
5 MR. MacDONALD: I'm obliged, Your Honour.
6 Q. Turning to the events of Zaklopaca on the same day, are you aware
7 that around 80 people were killed in that attack and that they were
8 exclusively Muslim?
9 A. No. I didn't know that evening that so many people were killed.
10 I still don't know the exact number. But when I arrived to the bereaving
11 family in the evening, somebody said that somebody had done this in
12 Zaklopaca. This is all the information that I have relating to
14 Q. Very well. So you're not aware that the next day, a group of 30
15 women, children and one elderly man that survived what took place at
16 Zaklopaca, they walked to Vlasenica, surrendered to Serb soldiers, had to
17 sign statements saying they were giving their houses and properties to
18 the Serbs, and were then bused to a place near to Kladanj. You're not
19 aware of that course of events?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that. This is the first time I'm hearing
21 about this.
22 Q. Do you know someone called Milomir Milosevic, Witness?
23 A. Yes, he was my fellow police officer from the police station.
24 Q. And was he a member of the Milici SJB in May 1992?
25 A. Yes, he was an active-duty policeman. He had been working at the
1 station for quite some time.
2 Q. Are you aware that a survivor of the incident at Zaklopaca stated
3 that they saw Milomir Milosevic arrive in a police car at Zaklopaca on
4 the 16th of May, 1992, along with other armed forces?
5 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
6 MR. MacDONALD: I wonder if at this point the Prosecution could
7 have 65 ter 02856, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for that, could I ask you the
9 following question: In your statement you say that a number of Muslims
10 were killed in Zaklopaca. Do you know whether these were combatants or
11 civilians or do you have any knowledge about their status?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] no, I don't.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness, the document on the screen in front of you is a duty
16 report sent by the duty officer Milan Bacic on the 16th of May 1992 to
17 the commander of the police station in Milici. It's stated he took over
18 duty at 7.00.
19 If I could take you to the part marked patrol.
20 MR. MacDONALD: And Your Honours, I would refer to a quotation
21 from the B/C/S document.
22 Q. I'm correct in saying that the duty officer states: "All
23 personnel were engaged in and I quote "ciscenja terena".
24 A. The term "cleaning of the ground" is something that he probably
25 referred to as engagement of Zutica. The proper formulation should be
1 the search of the ground following a certain --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were asked whether you agree with
3 Mr. MacDonald that that is the wording used, not -- you were not asked
4 whether it's correct or not, just to establish what the document says for
5 the time being.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what the report says.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.
8 MR. MacDONALD: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 The Prosecution would now request to have 65 ter 02857 on the
10 screen. And Your Honours, this document that is arriving is linked to
11 the one we've just discussed. Thank you.
12 Q. Witness, this is a report again by the duty officer, Milan Bacic.
13 We're still on the 16th of May. He states he took over at 3.00 and he's
14 passing on duty at 11.00.
15 If I can again take you to the part parked "patrol," he again
16 states "All personnel are still engaged in 'ciscenja terena'". That is
17 what he is reporting to the commander of Milici police station; is that
19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if I may notice the following, this report was
20 made on the same day. He says I took over the duty at 0700. However, I
21 see here that he says it took place at 0500 hours. I cannot understand
22 and I don't know how to comment to reports written by the same person
23 stating different hours. He said that I took over the duty at 7.00 and
24 in the next one, it says I took over the duty at 0500 in correct order
25 and I pass it on to the next duty officer in correct state.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, if there were any questions to relation to
2 that in re-examination, questions may be asked to you.
3 You're not here to tell us what you consider to be adequate or
4 not, you're here to answer questions and the question was whether you
5 agree with Mr. MacDonald that the same language is used in this document
6 as in the previous one.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please, Mr. MacDonald.
9 MR. MacDONALD:
10 Q. Witness, my final question, do you agree with me that these duty
11 reports are written on the same day of the incident at Zaklopaca?
12 A. I agree that they were written on the same day.
13 MR. MacDONALD: Your Honours, that concludes my
14 cross-examination. I would request to tender the last two documents that
15 the Prosecution has used, 65 ter 2856 and 2857, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 2856 receives number P6793 and document
18 2857 receives number P6794, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Both are admitted into evidence.
20 Mr. MacDonald, you only asked the witness to confirm what the
21 language is which is used in those documents and then whether they're of
22 the same date. If you would have had no witness, I would have been in a
23 position to answer those questions. Therefore, it's a bit unclear to
24 me -- because the witness wanted to explain something and of course I do
25 not know what he wants to explain but it would have been -- I do not
1 fully understand why you asked the questions everyone who can read can
2 answer and then leave all other possible questions out.
3 But perhaps Mr. Stojanovic has questions in relation to this.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let us try to clarify this,
6 Your Honours. Let us first look at document P6794.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
8 Q. I would attempt to simply clarify the timing of this document.
9 In the B/C/S version, if you have it in front of you, in the heading, it
10 says --
11 A. Are we talking about the same document?
12 Q. Yes. It says on the 16th of May, 1992, I received the duty --
13 but it says zero then something was typed over the zero and then it says
14 5 hours.
15 Now looking at the B/C/S version, would you be able to say that
16 this is actually at 0500 hours or at 1500 hours?
17 A. Well, it is impossible. If the previous one, he had taken over
18 the duty at 0700 hours, why would he take over the duty then on the 1500
20 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether you read this to be 05 or
21 15, Mr. Stojanovic, isn't it? Could you answer that question?
22 Irrespective Mr. Stojanovic, whether it's the witness that should
23 answer that question or whether the Chamber that should answer that
24 question looking at the original. But if the witness wants to express
25 himself whether it's 15 or 05, apart from logic, how do you read it, 05
1 or 15, Witness?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's both in my
3 opinion, both 05 and 15. If I could say something else --
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, I have a question for
6 Q. Could you tell the Chamber how these duty shifts were organised
7 and how did -- how long did they last at that time?
8 A. That's what I wanted to say. There were 12-hour duty shifts at
9 the time from 7.00 to 1900 hours, and from 1900 hours to 0700 hours. It
10 depended on the situation and you would have a smaller number of duty
11 staff and you would have two shifts working.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us the following, for us who are not
13 from the area, with regard to the Opetci village area which is where you
14 were on the 16th and with regard to the village of Zaklopaca, how far are
15 these places in terms of kilometres?
16 A. If you're looking at the area from Miletici, Opetci is to the
17 south and Zaklopaca to the west. The area could be 25 or 30 kilometres
18 from one point to the other. That's a fairly rough estimate.
19 Q. Thank you. Your attention has been drawn to paragraph 30 and 31
20 in your statement. Let's have a look at D659, paragraph 30 and 31.
21 In paragraph 31, you say: "When I arrived in Milici, I found out
22 about this incident and as far as I knew, no one had planned it."
23 Could you please tell the Chamber, where did you arrive in Milici
24 and where did you find out about this incident?
25 A. That evening, as I said, we returned in the early evening hours,
1 dusk, in fact, and I went to the Brkic family because Dragan Brkic is a
2 colleague of mine who was killed on that day as a member of the
3 territorial force and that's what I heard about what had happened in
4 Zaklopaca. Believe me, at that point in time, given everything we had
5 been through, I didn't try to find anything out because we were waiting
6 for people to arrive from the field and it was only 2130, 2200 hours that
7 they went -- that they came out in Derventa and we had a call from Naser,
8 the commander in Srebrenica who asked us if we wanted these two persons
9 or another two persons. There was some kind of black mail here.
10 Q. You said on that day, JNA corps were passing through Milici, JNA
11 corps that were withdrawing from Central Bosnia and Croatia. Is the
12 village of Zaklopaca [Realtime transcript read in error "general
13 practitioner"] on the line that was being followed by these JNA units
14 that were withdrawing?
15 A. Yes, the Zaklopaca village is right by the main road from
16 Sarajevo to Zvornik. All the former JNA units were withdrawing along
17 that route because that was the only open road to the border with Serbia,
18 so these columns were passing by every day and as a policeman I even
19 escorted some of those columns.
20 On the 15th, the previous day, there was the Tuzla column
21 incident. Part of that unit went who knows where. They were passed
22 by -- they travelled down that route because that was the only open route
23 towards the border.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Stojanovic, page 37, line 7, you are recorded
25 as having said is the village of general practitioner, I wonder where
1 there is such a village and could you repeat what you said so that it is
2 known what village you are referring to.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. For your assistance,
4 I asked about the village of Zaklopaca. And I say this for the sake of
5 the transcript.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to thank
8 the Chamber.
9 Q. I would just like to, if everything is fine, thank you once more
10 and I would also like to thank the witness Durmic. Those are all the
11 questions I had, Witness. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Durmic, P6793 indicated that the report took
15 over at 7.00 in the morning, is that correct? Or do you want to see the
16 exhibit again? Can you call 6793, please.
17 A. Could I have a look at it? I'm not sure what you are talking
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do you see the document before you right now?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you see that it says on this 16th of May,
22 1992, I took over duty from so and so at 7.00 in the morning. Do you see
23 that? 07?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now bear that number in mind, the time, 7.00 in
1 the morning. Can we now have 6794. Now, on 794, we see it could be 05
2 or it could be 15. Do you see that? That's what you said, you said it's
3 both. Right, now, if it is 15, would that not be in the same duty
4 duration of the person who came in at 7.00 in the morning? You said the
5 duties were from 7.00 in the morning to 1900 hours.
6 A. Well, it's probably the shift of one person because the same
7 person signed this report.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what I'm asking you. If it happened if
9 those two incidents happened at 7.00 in the morning, and at 3.00 in the
10 afternoon, they would have been in the same shift, wouldn't they have
11 been? The same shift to 7.00 in the evening.
12 A. On that day, we went to the Zutica area, as I was saying --
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't answered my question. Would 7.00 in
14 the morning and 3.00 in the afternoon be in the same shift as 7.00 in the
15 morning to 7.00 in the evening; yes or no?
16 A. It would, according to what is written here. They would be the
17 same shift.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That is all I wanted to find out from you.
19 I'm done.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Do you agree with me that the report which says that
22 Mr. Bacic Milan started his duty at 7.00 in the morning, that it doesn't
23 say when he gave over his duty to the next person?
24 A. Yes. But could I clarify something, Your Honour? The following
25 who takes over --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You can clarify facts, nothing else, fact known to
2 you personally. So if it's about the interpretation of this document, we
3 leave that to the parties and to the Chamber. But if you have anything
4 to add which is within your factual knowledge, you may tell us.
5 A. I wanted to say what common practice was. If I received a report
6 in the morning at 7.00, I make a note of the fact that the person who
7 receives the report from me, whether it's at 1500 hours or 1900 hours, he
8 makes a note of the fact that he took over shift at 1900 hours from such
9 and such a person. That is what I wanted to clarify.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently on this day, would you agree with me that
11 the normal shifts did not function because I think whether we start at 05
12 or at 15 o'clock in the afternoon, it went on until 2300 hours. Which
13 means that the usual shifts apparently did not apply that day. Would you
14 agree or would you have any comment on that?
15 A. I don't know. I don't know when this shift took place. I
16 couldn't comment.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you explained to us whatever you see and
18 what you consider important on the basis of these documents but
19 apparently here you are hesitant to draw any conclusions which is fully
20 appreciated and accepted.
21 Mr. MacDonald, no further questions, if I understand your body
22 language well.
23 This, then, Witness, concludes your evidence. I'd like to thank
24 you very much for coming a very long way to The Hague and for having
25 answered the questions that were put to you unless Mr. Stojanovic, the
1 questions by the Bench have triggered any further need for questions.
3 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
4 having answered all the questions and I wish you a safe return home
6 You may follow the usher.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, is the Defence ready to call its
10 next witness?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, Your Honour. The
12 witness, I believe, has already arrived. Should I start now or should I
13 start after the break?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think it's another 15 minutes until the
15 break so therefore perhaps you could start already.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Then I
17 suggest that we call Witness Djordjo Krstic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, since the usher is still outside, I'd like to
19 briefly move into private session and when the usher comes in, I'll
20 invite him to bring in the next witness.
21 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the rules require that you
2 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
3 I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: DJORDJO KRSTIC
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, witness, please be seated.
9 Mr. Krstic, at least I assume that you are Mr. Krstic. You'll
10 first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll find Mr. Stojanovic to your
11 left. And Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
15 Q. Good day, Mr. Krstic.
16 A. Good day.
17 Q. Could you please slowly tell us your first and last name?
18 A. My name is Djordjo Krstic. Is there anything else I should say?
19 Q. Could you tell the Chamber whether at one point in time you
20 answered questions put to you in written form by the Mladic Defence team
21 and did you provide a written statement too?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
24 see the following document in e-court. It's a 65 ter document and the
25 number is 1D01746.
1 Q. Mr. Krstic, this is your first time at the Tribunal in The Hague;
2 isn't that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In front of you, you can see on the left-hand side of the screen
5 a statement and a signature. Is this your signature and are these
6 details correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now could we have a look at
10 the last page of this document.
11 Q. You can now see the last page of your statement in front of you.
12 Is this your signature and is this the correct date?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Krstic, when you gave -- having given the solemn declaration
15 in this courtroom, would you now answer the questions that were put to
16 you for this statement in the same way? So if you are to now answer the
17 same questions that you answered in your statement, would you provide
18 identical answers to those questions?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like
22 to suggest that 1D01746 which is Mr. Krstic's statement be admitted into
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
25 MS. BIBLES: No objection, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D01746 receives number D664.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D664 is admitted.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
6 would now like to read the summary of the witness's statement.
7 Djordjo Krstic's statement in which he says that after he had been
8 released for imprisonment by the Green Berets in Sarajevo and following
9 the well known incidents in Dobrovoljacka Street, he joined the VRS as an
10 active soldier from BiH. Up until January 1993, he was engaged in the
11 SRK, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps command and was then transferred to the
12 Eastern Bosnian Corps in Bijeljina, where he was assigned the duties of
13 general affairs officer as well as the deputy warden of the collection
14 centre in Batkovici. He remained at this post until April 1994 when he
15 joined the military police battalion of the Eastern Bosnian Corps which
16 is where he remained until the end of the war.
17 He spoke about the duties he had to perform in the Batkovici
18 collection centre as well as about the gender and age of the prisoners.
19 And he also spoke about the status of those who were brought to the
20 collection centre by the military police unit who had captured them. He
21 also addressed the issue of the accommodation provided for the prisoners
22 and the issue of their personal hygiene.
23 The prisoners were provided with three meals a day. These meals
24 were prepared in the Bijeljina barracks and the food that they were
25 provided with was the same food that members of the VRS were provided
1 with, whereas the water was obtained from the city water supply system
2 and was drinkable.
3 The International Red Cross would visit the prisoners twice a
4 week and the superior command did not obstruct them from having contact
5 with the prisoners, on the contrary, they strove to maintain and promote
6 such cooperation with the International Red Cross. At the same time,
7 representatives of the International Red Cross made or transferred
8 suggestions or made comments that they would submit to the management of
9 the centre if they heard such suggestions made by the prisoners.
10 Prisoners were sent to work within the centre or outside the
11 centre on a voluntary basis and the prisoners were detained in the centre
12 until their status was determined and until a solution was found for them
13 in the form of an exchange or until they were handed over to the
14 International Red Cross who would then send them to the places that they
15 wanted to live in.
16 In his statement, he described how the guard duty was organised
17 and what sort of medical protection was provided for the prisoners.
18 That is the summary, Your Honours, and I would just have a few
19 questions for this witness after the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think you would need,
21 Mr. Stojanovic?
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that I will need no
23 more than ten minutes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then those ten minutes can be used after the break.
25 We take a break and the witness is invited to follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past 12.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Can we please have in e-court document D664, and let us focus on
9 paragraph 17 of the statement. 17.
10 Q. Mr. Krstic, you can again see in front of you your statement and
11 in paragraph 17, you describe the procedure when the detainees are being
12 sent to perform labour and you say "the guards shift leader would
13 approach the representative of the prisoners, who was always designated
14 by the prisoners themselves."
15 Please, can you tell me how this process evolved in terms of
16 designating the representatives of the prisoners?
17 A. The procedure was as I described it. At the request of someone
18 or something that came from the command requesting, for example, ten
19 labourers, the guard or somebody from the administration of the centre
20 would approach the man who was one of them, one of the detainees, and he
21 would select --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, your question, if I understood it
23 well, was not about how prisoners of war are chosen but how the
24 representative -- then you should intervene at that moment. Because the
25 witness then starts answering a totally different question.
1 You were asked how the representative of the prisoners was
2 designated by themselves, what the process was in that respect.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct.
4 Q. Let me repeat my question. Please --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think I repeated the question already.
6 Could you tell us the process of designating a representative by
7 the prisoners. How did that work?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The prisoners themselves would
9 elect their representatives from among themselves a person who would be
10 suitable for that.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. While you were performing the deputy duties, was that always the
13 same person or was there an alternate selection?
14 A. Well, mainly it was one and the same person but there was some
15 replacements if it happened that the original one was exchanged or sent
16 elsewhere in a different manner.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it always the same person, do you know?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to give you the
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't remember the name of
23 that person.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the only thing we've learned until
25 now is that where the witness in his statement says that the
1 representative was designated by the prisoners, that we now know that he
2 was elected by the prisoners which is not much of a difference. So
3 therefore I, wonder what the question was about at all.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In paragraph 19 of your statement, you speak about two different
7 kinds of security and you distinguish between the internal and the
8 external security. Can you tell the Chamber who was in charge of
9 external security, of those people?
10 A. These people would come in shifts from other units. They did not
11 have permanent residence in the collection centre but rather a unit would
12 designate about 20-odd people to perform the guard duty and to secure the
13 external perimeter of the compound and they were replaced every seven
14 days, which means that not always one and the same unit provided them.
15 Q. And who was in charge of the internal security guards?
16 A. The internal security guards were people from the military police
17 battalion of the Eastern Bosnia Corps however there were only three of
18 them who took shifts whether on a weekly basis or on a different period
19 of replacement.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Djordjo, at this point, I have no further
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, again the last question is already
23 answered in the statement of the witness so therefore there was no need
24 whatsoever to put that question to the witness again. And by the way, we
25 received the same answer.
1 Ms. Bibles, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
2 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krstic, you'll now be cross-examined by
4 Ms. Bibles. Ms. Bibles is counsel for the Prosecution and you'll find
5 her to your right.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Krstic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 MS. BIBLES: If we could have D47 on our screens, please, we can
12 go to page 1 in both versions.
13 Sir, the document coming up on the screen is an indictment from
14 the district court of Bijeljina. We see four accused described here.
15 And my question is whether number 3 in this list is you?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. BIBLES: Turning to page 2 now in both versions.
18 Q. We see that you're listed as the deputy camp warden in the
19 collection centre in Batkovic and later on this page, I believe we see --
20 it's actually towards the top third of the page, we see that the time
21 period is listed as 11 January 1993 to 6 June of 1994.
22 Does this correspond to the dates that you were the deputy camp
23 commander at Batkovic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Is this the situation that you're describing in paragraph 20 of
1 your statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you currently on trial for these charges?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And these relate to charges which include violating the rules of
6 the International Law of War, the ordering of murders, causing of great
7 physical or mental pain or suffering, violence to life and persons and
8 inhumane treatment?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is a Rule 90(E) issue perhaps --
11 Witness, I'd like to inform you about the content of one of the
12 Rules before this Court and I'll read it slowly to you.
13 A witness, so at this moment that's you, may object to making any
14 statement which might tend to incriminate that witness. The Chamber may,
15 however, compel the witness to answer the question. Testimony compelled
16 in this way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution
17 against the witness for any offence other than false testimony.
18 Now, let me further explain to you. If you have concerns that
19 any truthful answer might tend to incriminate yourself, you may address
20 me and you may object to answering that question. We'll then consider
21 whether or not we'll compel you to do so. But if you would be compelled
22 to answer the question, and again I'm saying that we would carefully
23 consider whether at all we would even consider to compel you to do so,
24 that if you then answer that question, the answer could not be used
25 against yourself but it could be used against yourself if the answer
1 would not be in accordance with the truth and you would expose yourself
2 to being prosecuted for perjury.
3 I'd like to explain to you that the same is true for the written
4 statements. If there's anything in that statement which is not true and
5 which you -- the answers you may have given in order to protect yourself
6 against any incrimination, then you better would tell us now rather than
7 at any later moment because you expose yourself to being prosecuted for
8 perjury if there's anything in those statements which is not in
9 accordance with the truth.
10 So I'm explaining this to you that this applies both for answers
11 to questions still to be put to you, but it may also apply, although you
12 have given the statement already and you've confirmed it already, that if
13 you have given any untrue statement until now, that you expose yourself
14 to being prosecuted for perjury.
15 Now, in this Tribunal, the maximum penalty for perjury is seven
16 years of imprisonment and/or a fine of a considerable amount.
17 Is that clear to you?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Completely clear.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Both in relation to what you have stated already and
20 in relation to what you are still about to testify about?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
23 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 If we could now see 65 ter 31357 on our screens.
25 Q. Sir, I'll now be directing a number of questions towards the time
1 period when you first arrived at Batkovic and what you observed. This
2 document that we see on the screen is a 4 August 1992 order from
3 Colonel Ilic ordering an adaption of the camp to make a second building
4 for holding prisoners.
5 When you arrived at Batkovic in January of 1993, how many
6 buildings held detainees at that time?
7 A. When I came there, there were two buildings.
8 Q. In paragraph 3 of your statement, you describe that there were
9 1700 detainees when you arrived. Can you tell us how many people were in
10 each of the two structures?
11 A. I said approximately 1700. I cannot give you 100 per cent
12 accurate figure. That's how it was during that period. So roughly
13 speaking half of them were in one building and the other half was in the
14 other building. I cannot give you the exact number though.
15 Q. Turning our attention to item 3 in this order, we see direction
16 to prepare the camp for foreign journalists and the
17 International Red Cross.
18 Didn't you receive similar orders to this one before
19 International Red Cross visits?
20 A. As far as I can see, this order is from 1992 and I wasn't there
21 at the time. I don't remember this order.
22 Q. Sir, my question is didn't you receive similar orders advising
23 you that the International Red Cross and perhaps journalists were coming
24 and that you should prepare the camp?
25 A. We didn't receive any specific order. That was the usual
1 practice to keep everything in order. No particular preparations were
2 made for either the journalists or the International Red Cross.
3 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I tender 31357.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31357 receives number P6795,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
8 MS. BIBLES:
9 Q. Paragraph 3 of your statement sets out that you were assigned to
10 serve as deputy manager of Batkovic immediately after you were
11 transferred to the East Bosnia Corps. Who assigned you to serve there?
12 A. The command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps and they issued an
13 official written document to that effect assigning me to that post.
14 Q. Where did you reside while you were serving as deputy manager of
16 A. In one of the buildings where the detainees were, there was
17 separate rooms which we used as offices so in one of the two buildings
18 where the detainees were held.
19 Q. Did you reside there throughout 1993 and 1994?
20 A. Yes, during the period that I stated concerning the duty that I
21 was performing. If you are referring to this period, I don't know if you
22 had something else in mind, for example, how many hours during the day I
23 spent there.
24 Q. In paragraph 6, you mention that the checks of persons taken to
25 the collection centre in Batkovic for various reasons were performed by
1 the security organs of the corps command, the military prosecution, and
2 organs in charge of such checks.
3 The corps command was the East Bosnia Corps command; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What other organs were you referring to?
6 A. The military police organs and the prosecution. Nobody else,
7 because they were part of the Eastern Bosnia Corps.
8 Q. After checks were performed, the Batkovic staff provided
9 information to the East Bosnia Corps command about who was being
10 detained; is that correct?
11 A. I suppose so. I wasn't in charge of reviewing that.
12 Q. In paragraph 3 of your statement, you advise that when you came
13 to Batkovic, the 1700 prisoners were from all over Bosnia and
14 Herzegovina. This suggests that you were briefed as to where these
15 detainees had come from; is that accurate?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What kind of briefing did you receive about Batkovic when you
18 took the assignment there?
19 A. I don't understand the question, what do you mean "briefing"? If
20 you can be more specific, please.
21 Q. Who provided information to you about the current status of
22 Batkovic when you arrived?
23 A. The warden whose deputy I was.
24 Q. What was that individual's name when you arrived?
25 A. Djoko Pajic.
1 Q. It's true that the majority of the prisoners were non-Serbs; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes. But there were Serbs.
4 Q. The vast majority of the detainees at Batkovic were non-Serbs,
5 however; isn't that true?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Did you know, when you arrived, that Batkovic held prisoners who
8 had been transferred from Manjaca?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. BIBLES: If we could have P3990 on our screens, please,
11 page 1.
12 Q. Sir, as this comes up, this is an article by Elie Wiesel
13 published by the Guardian which is a British newspaper and it's dated the
14 1st of March, 1993.
15 Beginning on page 1 down towards the bottom, we see a discussion
16 of the journalist's visit to the prisoners at Manjaca.
17 MS. BIBLES: And then if we could move to the end of page 2 in
18 both versions. We read:
19 "Shortly after our visit, that camp," referring to Manjaca "was
20 closed in our honour, as Karadzic put in a letter to an Italian
21 journalist. So far so good. Better yet, all the prisoners from Manjaca
22 were said to have been handed over to the International Committee of the
23 Red Cross but last month there came terrible news, not all the prisoners
24 had been freed. Some 500 remained unaccounted for. Most disturbing to
25 me was that many of those I had interviewed had been singled out for
1 special punishment and transferred to an even worse camp, Batkovic."
2 Sir, is it true that the men from Manjaca were treated more
3 harshly than the other prisoners?
4 A. That's not true. They were treated like everybody else and in
5 addition to that, they stayed for a short period of time. According to
6 the information I have, they remained there simply because there were
7 some technical problems, of which I know nothing, that occurred during
8 the exchange and their handing over to the International Red Cross so
9 they were temporarily accommodated with us, as far as I recollect. They
10 did not come there as punishment.
11 Q. Sir, we -- would you agree that we were talking about over 500
12 men who had been held at Manjaca who arrived at Batkovic when you were
13 there in January of 1993?
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Was it one year after or was it in March of 1993?
15 He came in January. So these people must have come there while he was
16 there already.
17 MS. BIBLES: I'll follow up with some questions about,
18 Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
20 MS. BIBLES:
21 Q. Sir, did these men from Manjaca come to Batkovic while you were
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And how many men are we talking about?
25 A. I can't remember the exact number but roughly 500, but I'm not
1 100 per cent sure.
2 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 7052 on our screens, please.
3 Q. Sir, this is a 14 December 1992 report to the 1st Krajina Corps
4 command from Manjaca camp. And this is describing events as the camp
6 MS. BIBLES: If we could first look at the end of the page where
7 we see a list of the journalists and I believe this is in both versions.
8 And perhaps it's on the next page in the B/C/S version. Yes. The top of
9 the next page there in B/C/S. The line that's underlined.
10 Q. We see: "It is also characteristic that the ICRC delegates were
11 interested in a group of prisoners who were exchanged yesterday. They
12 asked a few times whether we as the camp command knew the outcome of the
13 exchange. We also heard from several sources that the Croatian radio
14 broadcast the news at 6 in the morning, 0600 in the morning, that
15 yesterday 520 prisoners mainly Croats --"
16 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to the next page in English, please.
17 Q. " -- from taken away from the "notorious Serbo-Chetnik Manjaca
18 camp" to an unknown location to be exchanged."
19 Sir, aren't these the 520 men who were actually taken to Batkovic
20 rather than exchanged?
21 A. It's possible. It's possible. But I can't have a clear idea of
22 what this is about on the basis of this letter but I assume it's the 500
23 men. They did arrive in our camp but they didn't stay long. They were
24 soon exchanged and sent to the Zemunik area near Zadar, near the airport.
25 Ten of them returned because they didn't want to cross over to the other
1 side. We had exchanges at the lines and they decided not to go through
2 with the exchange and returned with us to Bijeljina again. I can't tell
3 you about the dates but this happened sooner after their departure from
5 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, first I would tender 7052.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7052 receives number P6796,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
10 MS. BIBLES: If can he could next go to P3992.
11 Q. Sir, as the document comes up, you'll see that this is a
12 East Bosnia Corps letter regarding prisoners who had arrived at Batkovic
13 from Manjaca.
14 Sir, are these the individuals that you were talking about?
15 A. I'm not familiar with this. This is 1992. I wasn't there at the
17 MS. BIBLES: If we could now go to 3887, please. I'm sorry
18 P3887, not 65 ter.
19 Q. Sir, this is an ICRC press communique dated 18 December 1992. If
20 we look at the third paragraph down you'll note that the press release or
21 the press communique indicates Manjaca has been closed down but quoting
22 the third paragraph: "In another development, during a visit to a camp
23 in Batkovic, in north-east Bosnia, delegates found some of the 529
24 detainees who had been transferred from Manjaca on 13 December without
25 the ICRC's knowledge. A visit to this camp is currently underway."
1 Sir, when you talked about prisoners coming from Manjaca, the 500
2 or so prisoners, are these the prisoners, the 529 or so that the ICRC had
3 not been advised of?
4 A. Prisoners were often taken to the camp, so I cannot remember
5 where many of them came from, when. As for those I was speaking about a
6 while ago, whether they were from somewhere else, well, I can't connect
7 this. I know those that came from Manjaca to our camp stayed there for a
8 very short period of time, not even a month, I think. And most of them
9 were exchanged either through the -- or they went to third countries
10 through the ICRC. That's what I can remember about the process at the
11 time because the period was a chaotic one and it was difficult to find
12 one's bearings in that chaos.
13 Q. But sir, you've confirmed that there were about 500 prisoners
14 from Manjaca who you recall at Batkovic, and we've seen information that
15 500 in December of 1992 came to Batkovic from Manjaca. And is it your
16 testimony now that you're not sure if you were dealing in January of 1993
17 with a different 500 prisoners from Manjaca?
18 A. At the top it says January 1992, as far as I can see. In January
19 1993, there was no one in the camp in Batkovici. I said that prisoners
20 were taken there.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we verify whether the witness has the right
22 document before him because on our screens, Witness, it reads
23 communication to the press No. 92/37, 18 December 1992.
24 Is that what you have in front of you as well?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we will then ignore that you said that it was
2 about January 1993. Or did the witness say January 1992? Let's just
3 have a look.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor said 1993 and
5 that's why I said that that wasn't the case in 1993.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, page 60, the witness
7 said that in January 1993 there was no one from the camp in Manjaca in
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I received such interpretation, in
10 December 1993.
11 MS. BIBLES:
12 Q. So, sir, there seems to be some confusion. When I first started
13 asking questions about prisoners from Manjaca and reviewed the article in
14 the British news about prisoners from Manjaca, you agreed that there were
15 prisoners from Manjaca while you were there and you agreed that it was
16 about 500. Are we talking about a different group?
17 A. I arrived in January 1993 and at the time there were some
18 prisoners whom I saw there and probably some of them had been brought in
19 from Manjaca or from somewhere else, I couldn't say. But in 1993, there
20 were Croats who were brought in, prisoners of Croatian ethnicity. They
21 were escorted there from Manjaca. They didn't stay long in our camp and
22 they were exchanged in the Zadar area near the Zemunik airport. If you
23 have understood what I want to say now.
24 Q. So, trying to understand the sequence. We have seen documents
25 that indicate that Manjaca was closed in December of 1992 and that 500 --
1 over 500 prisoners were taken to Batkovic. Your testimony is that there
2 may have been some of those present in Manjaca in January of 1993 but
3 that in 1993, Croats were brought in from Manjaca and that they were
4 later exchanged. Is that your testimony?
5 A. I haven't understood your question again. You keep referring to
6 January 1993, yes, January 1993. Yes, yes, that's correct. I got a
7 little confused with the dates.
8 Q. So you do recall prisoners of a Croat ethnicity coming to
9 Batkovic in 1993 from Manjaca?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. We'll shift directions in the questions --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I nevertheless ask a question.
13 The approximate number of prisoners of Croat ethnicity who were
14 coming in 1993 from Manjaca, when -- how many approximately were there
15 who arrived, those Croats?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say exactly, but about 500
17 or so. But I can't remember the exact figure. It was a long time ago.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We are puzzled by the following: Information exists
19 that Manjaca closed down in December 1992. Now, it is for us difficult
20 to understand how nevertheless, 500 Croats could arrive from Manjaca in
21 January 1993. Or at least somewhere in early 1993 and we are wondering
22 whether not in one way or another, you are mixing up a number of 500
23 prisoners coming from Manjaca in December with those as you said 500
24 Croats who arrived in 1993.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible. Let me clarify
1 this. When I arrived there, there were a lot of people already in the
2 camp. Where they came from, I didn't know at the time. Perhaps there
3 was a group that arrived before I arrived in the camp but I do remember
4 those Croats and I escorted -- I was part of the escort and I was part of
5 the commission when they were exchanged in Zemunik. So there were groups
6 that would arrive, but as for the dates and so on, I can't remember all
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you're focussing now on when they left
9 Batkovic rather than when they arrived. That group of Croats, did they
10 arrive when you were there already?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, as far as I could remember,
13 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that, apart from the 500 reported
14 to have transferred to Batkovic in December 1992, that there was another
15 group of 500 arriving in 1993 which make a total of approximately 1.000
16 prisoners coming from Manjaca arriving in Batkovic of which you said 500
17 were Croats.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said when I was there, the
19 Croats arrived but these people arrived before I went there, perhaps it
20 was about 500 or so, that could be the figure, but I'm not sure. I
21 wasn't there. As for whether they were from Manjaca or not, that is
22 information I do not have.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one additional question in this
25 What was the status of those who arrived from Manjaca? Were they
1 all combatants or really prisoners of war or was there a possibility that
2 there were civilians among them as well?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know much about the
4 status, whether they were combatants or had some other status. According
5 to the information I had, they were detained there temporarily at the
6 time because no technical arrangements had been made for exchanges so
7 they weren't there for very long. It was as if they were waiting for
8 things to be organised, for an exchange to be organised.
9 There were certain problems as far as that is concerned. I think
10 it had to do with whether they should be exchanged in Zemunik or
11 somewhere else.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you do not know whether you were detaining
13 civilians at that point in time even for a short period.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. No, I don't have
15 that information. We didn't look into that for the people who came from
17 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't verify the status of those coming from
18 Manjaca, whether they were prisoners of war or not?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my opinion, they were prisoners
20 of war. That's what I was told. But as to what they were, well, it
21 wasn't my role to look into or verify what their status was. The
22 security organs had that task and that is what I said in my statement.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But they were detained under your authority, weren't
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, under my authority when it
1 comes to providing security, food and so on and so forth, other
2 necessities. But they weren't under my authority in the sense that I was
3 to verify certain matters or launch investigations into things.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But also under your authority, they were kept within
5 the perimeter of the camp which they couldn't leave because they were
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm again informing you that if truthful answers
9 would incriminate yourself, that you may object to answer such a question
10 because keeping civilians in detention, not caring about whether they're
11 prisoners of war may be, if you state about that, may be, to some extent,
12 incriminate yourself.
13 I again bring this to your attention and I leave it now to
14 Ms. Bibles to continue her cross-examination.
15 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
16 Q. Sir, would you agree that there were some individuals that the
17 military police brought to Batkovic that Batkovic took responsibility for
18 but placed for detention somewhere else?
19 A. I wouldn't agree with that. Whoever was taken there by the
20 military police stayed there in our camp and they didn't go anywhere else
21 until an exchange was organised or some other solution was found.
22 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 31358 on our screens,
24 Q. Sir, I also refer to the fact that in paragraph 6 of your
25 statement, you said that there were never women and children in Batkovic.
1 First I want to clarify that you meant that there were no women or
2 children in Batkovic after January of 1993. Is that what you meant?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Sir, now on our screens, we see a 12 February 1993 referral
5 signed by Colonel Gavric sending nine women to KPD in Bijeljina because
6 they can't be held in Batkovic.
7 To be clear, sending these women to KPD meant that they were to
8 be held in a prison facility; is that correct?
9 A. KPD has nothing to do with us. It was a civilian institution,
10 the courts had authority over it as well as the civilian police so it had
11 absolutely nothing to do with the army and this document also has nothing
12 to do with us. The KPD was a separate thing.
13 Q. Sir, let's go back to my question. First, would you agree that
14 KPD was a prison, as you pointed out, a civilian prison?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You would agree that this document is signed by Colonel Gavric of
17 the Eastern Bosnia Corps command?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in this document, it indicates that these nine women were
20 brought from Zvornik to Batkovic. You see that in the document?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Sir, you see just above the signature where the Colonel writes,
23 "The collection centre will take responsibility for providing their meals
24 and other needs."
25 Wouldn't you agree that Batkovic collection centre was
1 maintaining responsibility for these women?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Sir, looking at the names on the list, I would ask you if you
4 would agree that these women are non-Serbs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I'd ask you to look at the date of birth for the women listed
7 as numbers 8 and 9 on the list, both reflect that they were born in 1918.
8 Would you agree that they would have been 75 years of age in 1993?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know anything about what happened to these women either
11 during or after their time in KPD in Bijeljina?
12 A. I don't know anything about them. I'm not at all familiar with
13 this event.
14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would tender 31358.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, I just want to -- Mr. Krstic,
16 you realise the date of this document is the 12th of February, 1993.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: By that time, you were at Batkovic as a deputy
19 warden, weren't you?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: When they came there to Batkovic, you must have
22 been -- that's during your term of office there.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't it surprising --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't go to Batkovic. I know
1 nothing about those people or rather about the women on this list.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: This -- the report says "They were brought from
3 Zvornik to the Batkovic collection centre. The proper conditions are not
4 in place for women to stay at the Batkovic collection centre."
5 You should be aware of them coming there whether or not they
6 stayed there for any length of time.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me say perhaps this
8 occurred when I was absent from the camp. I wasn't there every day.
9 Sometimes I had a day off so perhaps the warden of the Batkovic camp was
10 there. But I don't remember that and no one told me about the matter.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Perhaps they might have also have come while you
12 were there as opposed to --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of any women being
14 taken there. I didn't see any women.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I hear you say you're not aware but perhaps they
16 might have come while you were there in as much as it is quite possible
17 they could have come when you were not there.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This isn't something that I am
19 familiar with. That's why I'm saying I know nothing about it. I didn't
20 see anyone. I know nothing about this.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You may proceed, Madam Bibles.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but one further. Witness, if you say there had
23 never been any women, children or elderly persons, I now do understand
24 that you meant to say I am not aware of any women, children or elderly
25 persons having been in Batkovic. Is that correctly understood?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do we have to understand all the rest of your
3 statement in a similar way, that is, where you say this did not happen or
4 that did happen that it's always as far as you know?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: And remember.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
8 MS. BIBLES:
9 Q. I'd like to return to the questions about civilians being held at
11 MS. BIBLES: I would like if we could have 65 ter 25955 on our
12 screens, please. Oh, I'm sorry. I can't remember if I've tendered this
13 document or not.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: 31358?
15 MS. BIBLES: 31 -- wait. 31358.
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: You haven't tendered it.
17 MS. BIBLES: I would do so now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31358 receives number P6797,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES: Thank you. And I'd now ask if we could have
23 65 ter 25955 on our screen.
24 Q. Sir, this is an order from General Milovanovic, it's dated 16
25 July 1993. I direct your attention as it comes up to the first paragraph
1 of this order.
2 You see under the word "order", and then under the number one:
3 "Transfer all soldiers and civilians who are now in the prisons in your
4 zone of responsibility to the Batkovic collection camp in Bijeljina."
5 Sir, wouldn't you agree this makes it clear that civilians were
6 being held in other facilities as well and at least in this instance
7 brought to Batkovic?
8 A. In my statement, I also said that I didn't know who was a
9 civilian and who was a soldier. In my view, they were all prisoners and
10 they were all of military age. As for whether -- who was the civilian or
11 who was a soldier was the matter that the military police dealt with and
12 the people who were brought under this order, I also had no information
13 about who amongst them were civilians and who were members of the
15 Q. But certainly you knew that among the people being held prisoner
16 were civilians.
17 A. I never gave it a thought. That was not my job to ponder whether
18 somebody was a civilian or a soldier.
19 Q. Following this order, where as we see in this order the
20 implementation that is bringing all the civilians and soldiers to
21 Batkovic was to take place by the 22nd of July 1993. Can you tell us how
22 many such individuals were brought to Batkovic between the 16th of July
23 and the 22nd of July of 1993?
24 A. Well, I cannot remember the people were being brought from
25 Zvornik, even Samac, therefore I cannot recall the exact number. All I
1 know is that people had been brought.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Was it by the tens? Was it by the hundreds? Was it
3 just a few individuals?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say around 100. That would
5 be a rough figure. But I cannot confirm that with 100 per cent surety.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you I would tender 25955.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25955 receives number P6798,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
12 MS. BIBLES: And I'll shift directions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, could you tell us how much more time
14 you'd approximately need?
15 MS. BIBLES: Looks like about ten minutes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, we lost half an hour this morning.
17 Is there any objection by the Defence to continue for another ten minutes
18 and then to adjourn for the day?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
21 MS. BIBLES:
22 Q. In paragraph 17 of your statement, you indicate that prisoners
23 were sent to work outside the camp on a voluntary basis. And today, at
24 transcript page 47, lines 11 through -2, you gave additional information
25 which is that the request for such workers would come in from I believe
1 you said command.
2 The Trial Chamber has received evidence that in March of 1993,
3 detainees from Batkovic were forced to dig trenches for Serbs at the
4 front lines in the area of Lopar.
5 MS. BIBLES: If we could have P3970 on our screen, please.
6 Q. Sir, as this comes on the screen you'll see that it's an ICRC
7 press communique dated 2 April 1993. This was during your time at
8 Batkovic. We read in the first paragraph that ICRC learned:
9 "17 detainees might have lost their lives on 26 March when the
10 vehicle transporting them to the front line was ambushed."
11 And sir, the Chamber has received evidence that this did in fact
13 My question to you, sir, is did you take any steps to stop the
14 use of detainees at the front lines either before or after this event?
15 A. As far as I'm aware of the event, it did not take place on the
16 front line but in the vicinity of the front line, there were felling
17 trees for the centre. They were ambushed and they did what they did. We
18 were not able to undertake any other measures except for providing guards
19 with them who also became victims as they did. And while I was there,
20 they were never performing any labour on the front line itself, and I'm
21 talking about the detainees.
22 Q. Did you take any steps to try to prohibit detainees from being
23 taken to, as you call it, the vicinity of the front line?
24 A. Yes. They never went close to the front line again, not even
25 further away. There was a large distance between their place of work and
1 the front line.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, could I seek one clarifying question.
3 You said as far as you're aware of the event, it did not take
4 place on the front line but in the vicinity.
5 At what distance from the front line were they doing their job?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I can judge, it
7 might have been between seven and eight kilometres, roughly speaking. I
8 cannot tell you exactly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So they were far away from the front line. They're
10 not even in the vicinity. It is at a considerable distance.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You nevertheless then decided that they never went
13 close to the front line again.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So you put them at 10, 15, 20 kilometres from the
16 front line?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They never went outside Bijeljina.
18 They remained within the town limits of Bijeljina which was considerably
19 far from the front line.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Cutting trees in town, is that what they did there?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I was talking about the
22 group who were the victims and what happened, happened. After that, they
23 never went again to cut trees. Instead, we opted for acquiring coal from
24 the mine and this work was provided by the regular mine workers, not by
25 the detainees.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.
2 MS. BIBLES:
3 Q. Sir --
4 MS. BIBLES: We'll need to go into private session, actually, for
5 the next question.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 26370 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MS. BIBLES: Sir, I have two final questions. If we could go to
13 P345 and we'll look at page 87 in the English and page 89 in the
15 Q. While these are coming up, sir, I'll ask if you recall meeting
16 with General Mladic on the 13th of April, 1995?
17 A. What meeting are you talking about? I never attended a meeting
18 with General Mladic.
19 Q. Sir -- we're looking at notebooks of General Mladic and at the
20 top of the page, we see the 13th of April, 1995. Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you see your name?
23 A. But that is not my name. I was not the only Djordje.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, it's a very quick response that it's not
25 your name. It seems to be your name but you're not certain yet as to
1 whether it refers to you or by another person with the same name.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my name but whether it's a
3 different person, I cannot confirm that. But I never had any meeting
4 with General Mladic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have a meeting with the parents of prisoners
6 on the 13th of April, 1995?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't in Batkovic at the
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that it was in Batkovic. Did you
10 have a meeting with the parents of prisoners in April 1995.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just follow up. Sir, did you say the man
14 who used to take people away from Batkovic was Vojkan somebody, what was
15 his surname again?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no Vojkan taking people
17 away, but if you are referring to the Vojkan previously mentioned his
18 last name is Djurkovic. However he never came to Batkovic, or at least I
19 never saw him there.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: I thought you were being asked in the context of
21 him taking people and I see here he's mentioned by the first name but he
22 takes people away in their socks. Unless I misheard Madam Bibles.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He never came. The Vojkan whom I
24 knew by sight only, he never came to Batkovic for any reason whatsoever.
25 At least, I never saw him. Whether he came through some other channels
1 unbeknownst to me, that's a different thing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I have one further question. Could you tell us
3 whether there was any Djordje Krstic in Batkovic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a man in Bijeljina named
5 Djordje Krstic but he was a local of that place. I know him by sight
6 also but we are not related in any way.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did he ever appear in Batkovic as far as you know.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djordje Krstic?
9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Bijeljina?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... what and when.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean in Bijeljina?
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, my question is whether this Djordje Krstic as
14 you said who lived in Bijeljina was he ever in Batkovic camp.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to my knowledge. This man
16 never appeared there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then I put it to you that the Djordje Krstic who is
18 described here apparently has knowledge of the ordering of the expulsion
19 of Muslims, an opinion which he expressed in a meeting with the parents
20 of prisoners. Do you have any explanation as what other Djordje Krstic
21 could have been referred to in this context?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't in that meeting. Whether
23 this other Djordje was there, I cannot say. I only know him by sight. I
24 know nothing else about him. What he was doing, what his role in
25 Bijeljina was as far as I know, he had been living in Bijeljina since
1 before the war.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
3 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You have no further questions.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we have to adjourn for the day because the
7 teams are needed for the Hadzic case.
8 Mr. Stojanovic, would you have any further questions? I'm not
9 allowing you to put them to the witness now but could you give us some
10 indication as to how long you would need.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, with your
12 leave I would only have one question and then we can finish with this
13 witness if you think that is sufficient, then I'm all right with that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Experience tells me that one question from you
15 sometimes amounts to three, four or five. If it's really one, I will
16 allow you to put that question to the witness but I'll limit you then to
17 one question.
18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If it
19 was going to be a leading question, please prevent me from putting it.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
21 Q. Mr. Krstic, you mentioned a person called Djordje Krstic. My
22 question is do you know if this Djordje Krstic aka Djojo [phoen] married
23 to Mara has a son, Miljan Krstic, who was taken prisoner at Lisic?
24 A. Yes, that is the Djordje Krstic I was referring to according to
25 my knowledge.
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
3 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for the day, Ms. Bibles. If you would
4 have any further questions I'll not allow you to put them to the witness
5 now but please indicate whether you want to further explore the matter
6 which came up in the last question and whether you want to -- or would
7 you --
8 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would have no re-cross following that
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, this concludes your testimony. I'd
11 like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague for and
12 for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties
13 and by the Bench and I wish you a safe return home again. You may follow
14 the usher.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Goodbye.
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
18 the 30th of September in this same courtroom III at 9.00 in the morning,
19 not later. We stand adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.
21 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of
22 September, 2014 at 9.00 a.m.