1 Tuesday, 30 September 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. The situation as far as
11 Judge Fluegge is concerned remains unchanged, that is, that for urgent
12 personal reasons, he's unable to hear the case. We expect him back
13 tomorrow. Judge Moloto and myself, we still consider it in the interest
14 of justice to continue to hear the case and we are aware that from a
15 distance Judge Fluegge is following the proceedings closely.
16 Second, yesterday, I said we would start at 9.00. The reason for
17 starting at 9.00 was that the support teams are needed in the afternoon
18 for the Hadzic case so it was only exceptionally that we moved to a
19 little bit earlier morning session. Since the Hadzic case will not be
20 heard today and if I understand well, also not the coming days, this
21 means that we can start at our usual time, 9.30.
22 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
23 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the
25 courtroom. Your next witness is Mr. Andric, I take it, Mr. Ivetic
1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct, Your Honours, Novica Andric.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Andric. Before you give evidence,
4 the rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The next is now
5 handed out to you. May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
7 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: NOVICA ANDRIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning and greetings to
11 everyone in the courtroom.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Andric.
13 Mr. Andric, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic, you find
14 Mr. Ivetic to your left standing. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence
15 team of Mr. Mladic.
16 Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
18 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
19 Q. Good day, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record?
22 A. My name is Novica Andric of Rogatica.
23 MR. IVETIC: I would like to first take a look at 1D04367 in
25 Q. Sir, I would ask that you take a look at the document appearing
1 on the left-hand side of the scene and I would ask you if you remember
2 giving this statement to the Karadzic Defence team.
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. IVETIC: If we could please move to the last page in both
6 Q. Again looking on the left-hand side, there is a signature and a
7 date in 2013. Can you tell us whose signature that is?
8 A. That is my signature.
9 Q. After signing this statement for the Karadzic trial, did you have
10 occasion to read through the same in the Serbian language to verify if
11 everything was correctly written?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And did you, in fact, make some correction when you met with the
14 Defence team members of the Mladic trial?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. IVETIC: If I can now have 1D01698 in e-court.
17 Q. And again focussing on the document that's now on the screen, do
18 you recall giving this statement to the members of the Mladic Defence
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you please tell us whose signature is visible on the first
23 A. It is my signature on the front page.
24 MR. IVETIC: If we could turn to the last page of both versions.
25 Q. Again, focussing on the document on the left of the screen there
1 is a signature and a date in 2014. Could you tell us whose signature
2 appears there?
3 A. This is again my signature.
4 Q. Now, focusing on this statement given to members of the Mladic
5 Defence team, did you read the same after signing it to ascertain if
6 everything is correctly recorded therein?
7 A. Yes, I have read it and I agree with it.
8 Q. If I were to ask you questions today about the same topics as
9 contained in the Mladic statement, would your answers, in essence, be the
10 same as contained in the statement?
11 A. Yes, the answers would basically be the same.
12 Q. And sir, since you have taken a solemn declaration this morning,
13 would those answers be truthful in nature?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to page 3 in both versions of
16 this document.
17 Q. I'd like to look at paragraph number 7 with you. Sir, in this
18 paragraph, you talk about needing to make a correction to what you said
19 in the Karadzic case about not knowing the precise date when the Rogatica
20 Brigade was placed under command and control of the VRS.
21 MR. IVETIC: With this paragraph in mind, I'd now like to return
22 to 1D04367 and if we could look at page 4 in English, page 5 in Serbian,
23 and paragraph 15 of the same.
24 Q. Sir, looking at paragraph 15 on the screen before us, does the
25 correction that we just looked at relate to this paragraph of your
1 Karadzic statement?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Sir, apart from this one correction to your Karadzic statement,
4 do you stand behind everything else as being accurate and correct?
5 A. Everything I said is accurate and truthful.
6 Q. Okay. And if I were to ask you again today about the same topics
7 would your answers, in essence, be the same as recorded in your Karadzic
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, at this time, I would move for both
11 1D04367 and 1D01698 to be introduced into evidence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar. The number for 1D04367 would
13 be ...
14 THE REGISTRAR: Number D665, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D665 is admitted. The number for 1D01698 would
16 be ...
17 THE REGISTRAR: Number D666, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D666 is admitted.
19 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I propose to deal with the
20 associated exhibits at the end of the testimony but I do announce that we
21 will not be tendering any of the statements referenced in the
22 Prosecution's response to the 92 ter motion.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood.
24 MR. IVETIC: And at this time I have a short summary to read for
25 the record of the statements.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed as you suggest.
2 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
3 The witness is from Kosovo village in Rogatica municipality. His
4 testimony is that with the formation of national parties in the early
5 1990s, the situation rapidly deteriorated. The SDA was first formed in
6 1990 with Ramiz Alabegovic spearheading the organisation. Already in
7 late 1990 and early 1991, the first Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries were
8 set up in Pokrivenik village and, again, Ramiz Alabegovic called the
10 After the referendum on secession of BH from Yugoslavia,
11 nationalism grew very much and you could see that Serbs, Croats and
12 Muslims could not live together. Bosnian Muslims were openly saying that
13 Bosnia belonged to them and they were going to rule it.
14 Serbs started organising village guards, using hunting rifles and
15 legally possessed pistols. This was done especially from the second half
16 of 1991, because volleys of automatic gunfire could be heard from Muslim
18 The witness joined the Territorial Defence on 20 April 1992
19 because his village was surrounded by multiple Muslim villages, and the
20 Muslims were armed with all kinds of infantry weapons.
21 The Rogatica Territorial Defence was armed with weapons from the
22 Territorial Defence stocks, and was not armed by the JNA.
23 From the first half of May 1992, there were constant provocations
24 from Muslim villages that fired upon Serb houses with infantry weapons,
25 anti-aircraft machine-guns, and mortars.
1 Ramiz Alabegovic refused to heed calls to turn over weapons.
2 Following the murders of Serbs in Ristivici village and the burning of
3 the Serbian village of Dobromerovci, the Serbs responded to the Muslim
4 attacks and broke their resistance.
5 The witness denies that any mistreatment of Sefik Hurko or his
6 father occurred whilst the same were in the garage of the witness's
8 As to Rasadnik, the witness stresses that one part of the
9 facility was a reception centre while a separate part was a detention
10 facility. That completes the public summary.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you have any further questions for
12 the witness, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.
13 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
14 Q. Sir, I'd like to return to the statement given in the Karadzic
15 case which has now received the number D665 and I'd like to look at the
16 first page and paragraph 3 in both versions:
17 In this paragraph, you talk of the formation of the SDA in 1990
18 in Rogatica and how Ramiz Alabegovic spearheaded the same. Could you
19 please tell us what was this individual's position in the municipality at
20 that time?
21 A. Ramiz Alabegovic was the police station commander in Rogatica.
22 Q. And for the events surrounding the formation of the SDA in
23 Pokrivenik village, were you present for the same or how is it that you
24 know the information that is contained in this paragraph as to the SDA?
25 A. The road leading towards the village of Pokrivenik passes right
1 by my house. On that day, a large column of motor vehicles and buses was
2 observed heading in that direction. A man called Milomir Cacic was
3 observing the developments and he told me about it. Then in the evening
4 both in the media and in the next day's print press, it was said that the
5 party had been formed.
6 MR. IVETIC: Now I'd like to turn to page 3 in both languages and
7 focus on paragraph number 9.
8 Q. Here, sir, you talk about the wounding and subsequent death of
9 Jela Bjelakovic can you please tell us the ethnicity of this lady and
10 what actually happened to her?
11 A. Jela Bjelakovic is a Serb. When there were provocations from
12 Muslims, villages Kozici and Voljevici, she was wounded and shortly
13 thereafter she succumbed to the wounds and died.
14 MR. IVETIC: Now if we could turn to page 4 in the English at the
15 bottom and page 5 in the Serbian I'd like to ask you about paragraph 16.
16 Q. In paragraph 16 of this statement, you talk about a reception --
17 or a holding centre in the English, a holding centre at the secondary
18 school for all families that left Rogatica town centre after the Muslims
19 took control.
20 Can you please identify for us by name that secondary school?
21 A. That was the secondary education centre was called
22 Veljko Vlahovic.
23 MR. IVETIC:
24 Q. Now I'd like to turn to Rasadnik. Sir, did you ever witness the
25 killing of any persons that were being accommodated in Rasadnik, either
1 in the part for detainees or in the separate part for civilians.
2 A. No.
3 Q. How often did your duties bring you to Rasadnik?
4 A. I went there rarely, mainly in order to detain the soldiers who
5 violated military discipline by leaving their unit without permission or
6 any other infringement of the rule.
7 Q. Now, sir, you were a driver within the military police. What
8 were the instructions and orders which were received from superior
9 officers in the military police of how to deal with enemy prisoners of
11 A. For the most part, just like every soldier was obliged to adhere
12 to the Geneva Conventions to provide medical assistance to the wounded,
13 to bring them to a doctor and to have them registered by the
14 International Committee of the Red Cross.
15 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, sir, for your answers to my questions on
16 behalf of my client and the rest of my team. Thank you. That completes
17 the direct examination.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic. Before we continue, I have
19 one question for you.
20 You talked about the Veljko Vlahovic school and you said it was a
21 collection centre. What do you understand a collection centre exactly to
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view, a collection centre is
24 a place where people felt free and protected from any provocations and
25 where simply their life was safe at the time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So this courtroom would be a collection centre, I
2 would say, because people feel free, I take it, at least most of us are
3 free. We are protected from any provocations, and our life is safe here.
4 So this is a collection centre, do I understand you well?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was a reception or
6 collection centre in wartime which is a place where people sought kind of
7 safety, a house where they can put up their families in order to protect
8 them from wartime operations.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So it's your testimony that people went freely, from
10 their own free will, to the Vlahovic school. Is that your testimony?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: People would be safe there, protected against any
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know that it was the situation in that
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear from anybody that
18 there were any provocations there or at least nobody was talking about
20 JUDGE ORIE: So in the absence of any reports about a different
21 situation, you'd call it a collection centre and you just would assume
22 that people would go there freely. That's just your assumption or do you
23 have any knowledge about it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my assumption. I wasn't
25 there. I wasn't in that secondary school. I went by the school once. I
1 saw a couple of people there who were behind the school in the courtyard
2 playing football. They were not exposed to any combat there. I could
3 see them move freely around the courtyard or the playground of the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, are you ready to cross-examine the
7 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:
10 Q. Sir, I'd actually like to start off by asking you about some of
11 the events surrounding Zepa in July and August of 1995. Specifically I
12 want to ask you about your contact with a man named Avdo Palic in August
13 of 1995.
14 Before I do ask my questions, I should advise you that this
15 Trial Chamber heard testimony from a witness, David Harland, that when
16 Zepa came under sustained Serb attack after the fall of Srebrenica, ABiH
17 Zepa commander Avdo Palic contacted the UN wanting to negotiate with the
18 Bosnian Serbs for the evacuation of the civilians of Zepa. On the 27th
19 of 1995, Avdo Palic voluntarily travelled in a UN vehicle under a flag of
20 truce to a VRS position. During the negotiations when Palic wouldn't
21 agree to surrender his military forces, members of the VRS took him away.
22 This Trial Chamber has heard that the next day, when UN officials
23 asked to see Palic, General Tolimir informed that Palic was dead.
24 They've heard testimony that General Mladic told UNPROFOR that Palic was
25 dead. I want to ask you about your contact with Avdo Palic after he was
1 seized on the 27th of July, 1995.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, this may be an appropriate time to
3 review Rule 90(E) with the witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, as you know the Chamber, not knowing
5 what the questions will be, follows the suggestions by the parties and
6 therefore I'll bring Rule 90(E) to the attention of the witness.
7 Witness, Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence reads
8 as follows. A witness, therefore that's you at this moment, a witness
9 may object to making any statement which might tend to incriminate the
10 witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to answer the
11 question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence
12 in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any offence other
13 than false testimony.
14 So if a truthful answer would tend to incriminate yourself, you
15 may address me and you may object to answer that question. The Chamber
16 will then consider that. Whatever the outcome of that is, if you're
17 telling not the truth, you are exposing yourself to prosecution for false
18 testimony and that is punishable by a term of imprisonment of seven years
19 and/or a fine, a considerable fine.
20 Therefore, if you have any concerns whether you would incriminate
21 yourself by giving a truthful answer, don't hesitate to object.
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Sir, you do know who Avdo Palic was, don't you? You need to
25 actually speak an answer, sir, rather than just nod for the transcript.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Sir, after Palic was captured on the 27th of July, you know that
3 he was held in an apartment in Rogatica, don't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you know that this is an apartment that was used by a
6 Rogatica Brigade officer by the name of Zoran Carkic.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. During the time that Avdo Palic was being held in this apartment,
9 you in fact brought guards to this apartment in Rogatica, didn't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 25962 brought to our
12 screens, please.
13 Q. Sir, this is a 10th of August, 1995, Main Staff document signed
14 by Colonel Beara.
15 In the first paragraph, it refers to "Atlantida" and the first
16 paragraph reflects that his present inadequate accommodation is
17 attracting the interest of the public.
18 The paragraph goes on to say that he must be transported in
19 secret to the Mlin military prison in Bijeljina.
20 Going on to the second paragraph, which is all I think on page 1
21 in the B/C/S but we may need to move to the second in English, it says
22 that Captain Carkic would arrange with Major Kusic and personally carry
23 out the task by announcing his arrival to Colonel Todorovic in the 1BK.
24 Sir, isn't it true that with Captain Carkic and Major Kusic, you
25 drove Avdo Palic to Bijeljina?
1 A. It is true that I drove Avdo Palic to Bijeljina with Zoran
2 Carkic, not Major Kusic.
3 Q. And sir, we see by looking at the order that driving Mr. Palic to
4 Bijeljina was at the order of the VRS Main Staff; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You drove Avdo Palic to Bijeljina on or about the 10th of August,
7 1995; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The prison where you took Palic, is that located in Bijeljina
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it accurate that the distance between the apartment in
13 Rogatica town and the prison in Bijeljina was about 200 kilometres?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us what was discussed in the car on the way, what
16 the atmosphere was like?
17 A. In the car, we had a normal conversation. We asked him about his
18 family because during his stay over there, conditions were put in place
19 for him that were similar to a house atmosphere because he, indeed, was
20 in an apartment.
21 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 25962.
22 MR. IVETIC: If I could just see the first page of the English, I
23 think there's a translation error.
24 The document in English actually recorded June instead of August.
25 No objection.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the original says 10th, 11th of June
2 which of course is puzzling whether in August you can order the transport
3 of someone to take place on the 10th or the 11th of June.
4 MS. BIBLES: It's the Prosecution's position that the B/C/S
5 version, the number 6 is actually an error, that the evidence and on the
6 top of the document support this being a typographical error in the B/C/S
7 original, Your Honours. The testimony of the witness is consistent with
9 MR. IVETIC: In any event, I don't have an objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 25962 receives number P6800,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: P6800 is admitted.
14 Ms. Bibles, there seems to be an implicit suggestion in your
15 questioning that Atlantida is the same person, you have not asked the
16 witness about it, I don't know if he's aware of the code-name used.
17 MS. BIBLES:
18 Q. Sir, I apparently did not ask you this, but the code-name
19 Atlantida which is used in this Main Staff order, you would agree that
20 this refers to Avdo Palic?
21 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with this code-name. I'm
22 familiar with the name Avdo Palic.
23 Q. The individual that you transported on the -- approximately the
24 10th of August, 1995, with Captain Carkic was Avdo Palic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you transport anybody else with Captain Carkic in this time
2 period from Rogatica to the prison in Bijeljina?
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MS. BIBLES:
6 Q. Sir, Avdo Palic's body was later exhumed from a mass grave about
7 10 kilometres from Rogatica town. When did you last see Avdo Palic
9 A. I saw Avdo Palic alive the last time in Bijeljina when I drove
10 him to Bijeljina. I'm familiar with the journey from Rogatica to
11 Bijeljina. I don't know anything about what happened after that.
12 Q. But you're aware that his body was recovered from a grave about
13 10 kilometres from Rogatica?
14 A. You told me that last time when I testified in the Karadzic case.
15 Q. Perhaps it was a different prosecutor who showed you that
17 A. No.
18 Q. Sir, I'd like to continue and go to paragraph 18 of your
19 statement from the Karadzic case.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, I'd like to have this clarified. You
21 did not examine the witness in the Karadzic case, I take it.
22 MS. BIBLES: I did not, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you said it was this same Prosecutor who
24 shared that information with you in the Karadzic case. The record will
25 show most likely, because Ms. Bibles tells us, that she did not examine
1 you. So how could she possibly have shared that with you in the Karadzic
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not then, but when I testified
4 here, somebody asked me. I don't know who it was. But in any case,
5 that's when they told me. Somebody put that question to me at that time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were asked, "Perhaps it was a different
7 prosecutor who showed you that information." You said no. But you meant
8 to say that it was still a Prosecutor of this Tribunal. Is that how we
9 have to understand your answer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MS. BIBLES: I see defence counsel have a conversation. I don't
13 know if I should wait or not.
14 MR. IVETIC: There's a question about the answer at page 17, line
15 2 where we heard the B/C/S where he said "nije ona" which has not been
16 inserted, which means "not her" in B/C/S.
17 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
18 Q. Sir, I would like to switch directions a little bit and talk
19 about paragraph 18 of D665 which is the statement that you provided for
20 the Karadzic case. In paragraph 18 you finish the paragraph talking
21 about seeing on the -- I believe it's the 27th of July, Ahmet Brgulja.
22 You describe that you spoke with this individual. You talked about
23 cigarettes and then you say that he was transferred to Kladanj. Do you
24 recall that section of your testimony and I believe it's in front of you.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you aware that he was actually detained at Rasadnik?
2 A. He went in the direction of Kladanj with a convoy. When he was
3 returned or when -- where he was placed, I was in Boksanica when the
4 convoy left in the direction of Kladanj. That's when I met that man. I
5 asked him if there were any problems. He said he didn't have any
6 problems but that he didn't have any cigarettes. I gave him a pack of
7 cigarettes. And the men left in the direction of Kladanj.
8 Q. And you would agree he was a Muslim?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. BIBLES: Could P3496 please be brought to our screen.
11 Q. Sir, what you'll see come up on the screen is a list of Muslim
12 prisoners of war compiled by Zoran Carkic, who is the same individual you
13 drove with in August. This list is further authorised by Tolimir and it
15 "Starting on 28 July 1995, the following citizens of Muslim
16 ethnicity who are accommodated at the military reception centre in
17 Rogatica ..." and I first want to ask you this is referring to Rasadnik,
18 isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Under items 1, 2 and 3, you see the names of Muslim leaders from
21 Zepa, don't you?
22 A. I can see the names of some people but I don't know whether they
23 were in leading positions in Zepa. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.
24 In any case, I can see that these are Muslim names.
25 Q. Let's look at the first name, Mehmed Hajric describes that he is
1 the former president of the Zepa War Presidency and Muslim cleric. You
2 would agree that he would make him a community leader or leader in Zepa?
3 A. Judging by what I am reading here, I would say that that is the
4 case. But I really don't know anything about that.
5 MS. BIBLES: If we could turn the English -- or turn to the next
6 page in the English.
7 Q. And for you, sir, I'd ask you to look down in the B/C/S version
8 to number 17. Is this the individual that you saw and you believed went
9 to Kladanj?
10 A. Yes, that is the person's name, the first name and the family
11 name. I don't know whether that is the person or not, judging by the
12 name, I would say that it was.
13 MS. BIBLES: And now if we could turn to the next page in B/C/S
14 and stay on this page in English.
15 Q. I want to you look down at number 45. This is an individual that
16 we've already discussed, Atlantida who is reflected as being in a
17 different safe location. And again, sir, we believe that this is
18 Avdo Palic, based on your previous testimony; correct?
19 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with this name, Atlantida, I
20 don't know whether that is a reference to that person or not.
21 Q. You know that Mr. Palic was being held in an apartment in
22 Rogatica rather than at Rasadnik; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. BIBLES: Now if we could go to the next page in both
1 Q. Sir, at the top, you see a designation that talks about the
2 health status of prisoners of war. Looking down just past halfway
3 through the page, we see that with respect to the individual, Atlantida,
4 he's described as "bursting" with health.
5 Given the way that this is written, do you know what this means?
6 A. I don't know. All I see is the English version. There is no
8 Q. Sir, you don't have a B/C/S version in front of you?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be checked whether the witness has the
10 B/C/S version before him.
11 MS. BIBLES:
12 Q. Sir, on the B/C/S page in front of you which does have some
13 colouration, do you see about two thirds of the way down there's a
14 section that's called "C. Treatment of prisoners of war." The line that
15 I'm asking you to look at is just above that one.
16 What does "puca" mean to you?
17 A. "Puca" is part of a phrase that means fit as a fiddle. Puca is a
18 verb that can also be used to describe shooting from a weapon but in this
19 case, this describes his good health.
20 Q. Sir, the first three persons that we saw on this list, are you
21 aware that they were never seen again alive?
22 A. No. I don't understand.
23 Q. Have you heard whether the first three individuals, the names
24 that we looked at first on this list were located in a mass grave with
25 the body of Avdo Palic?
1 A. The Trial Chamber told me that during the previous trial.
2 However, I did not know those people personally. I didn't know about
4 MS. BIBLES: I'm next going to shift to a different topic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I instruct you, Witness, not to again and
6 again look at the Defence side for whatever purposes. Ms. Bibles is
7 examining you. Just focus on what she asks you and refrain from any eye
8 contact with others in this courtroom.
9 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, next to your family home is a garage in which Sefik Hurko,
11 Fejzo Hurko, Izeta Hurko and Abdulah Hurko were held on or about the
12 14th of August, 1992. Is that true?
13 A. It is true that Sefik, Fejzo, and Fejzo's wife were held there,
14 but Abdulah wasn't.
15 Q. Is it true that among the soldiers that you saw in your father's
16 garage with the Hurkos was Ratko Kusic and Stojan Perkovic?
17 A. Not Ratko Kusic but Rajko Kusic and Stojan Perkovic is correct,
19 Q. After the Hurkos were in your father's garage they were taken to
20 Rasadnik where they were held in military detention; isn't that correct?
21 A. They were taken to the secondary school when they were taken
22 away. When that collection centre was dismantled at the beginning of the
23 school year when the purpose of the school was reinstated, those who had
24 been in the collection centre were transferred to a new collection centre
25 in Rasadnik.
1 Q. Sir, I'd ask if we could have --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask you. The question was whether they
3 were held in military detention. You started saying they were taken to
4 the secondary school and then later on, you again referred to them being
5 taken to another collection centre.
6 I think we earlier established that you have no knowledge
7 whatsoever to allow you to conclude that this was a collection centre
8 rather than anything else. That is valid for the school.
9 Now, the new centre where they were taken, which one was it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the Rasadnik centre.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
13 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 31323 on our screens.
14 Q. While this document is coming up, I'll ask if you're aware that
15 Stojan Perkovic pled guilty before a court in Bosnia to crimes committed
16 in Rogatica including those committed in your garage, in your father's
18 A. No crimes were ever committed in my father's garage. As to
19 Stojan Perkovic having stated that, and under what circumstances, I don't
20 know anything about that.
21 Q. Sir, let's look at some of the circumstances. This document on
22 the screen in front of you is the judgement against Stojan Perkovic.
23 MS. BIBLES: If we could turn to page 2 in both versions and look
24 down at number 3.
25 Q. We see that the judgement finds that he's guilty of acting
1 together with Rajko Kusic and other members of the VRS in taking part in
2 the illegal detention of civilians Fejzo Hurko, Sefik Hurko, Abdulah
3 Hurko, and Izo Hurko in the garage owned by Mico Andric where he
4 subsequently together with others committed various things and I won't go
5 through those in detail but they are assaultive behaviours. Turning to
6 the next page now, in the English only --
7 JUDGE ORIE: You said together with others. I see only one name
8 mentioned there. Together with someone else.
9 MS. BIBLES: Together with someone else. Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MS. BIBLES: Turning just -- let's see we're on the next page.
12 Q. "Abdulah Hurko was taken out of the garage and disappeared
13 without a trace."
14 Sir, the Trial Chamber has heard evidence consistent with this
15 and I submit that your testimony today is not truthful as to what
16 happened in your father's garage.
17 A. These three people were taken to my father's garage, Fejzo, Sefik
18 and Fejzo's wife. As for the fourth person, whether he was killed on the
19 front line, I don't know. So the fourth person wasn't there.
20 In addition, they were not locked up because the garage was being
21 held open all the time because it was summertime. They were even served
22 coffee when a captain came there. So this confession or this testimony
23 given to this effect, I don't know how it came about.
24 I claim here with full responsibility that they were not
1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I see that I'm past the time for a
2 break. This might be a good time to take a break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you'll remain within your
4 time limits as estimated by yourself.
5 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break.
7 Witness, I have to -- you say this is all false statements by
8 others. Apparently those who gave those statements accepted to be
9 punished for the events where you would not lightheartedly admit these
10 events and your role in that if you will be punished for it, especially
11 if you have to spend a lengthy time in prison. I do understand that the
12 penalty imposed was 12 years of imprisonment.
13 So therefore, I have to remind you again that if you would not
14 speak the truth, that you are exposing yourself to prosecution and this
15 may have severe consequences as well.
16 I see -- I see you again as you did before smiling. It seems
17 that it has a certain level of amusement for you.
18 I leave it to that. We'll take the break. You may follow the
19 usher and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.
20 Mr. Mladic, no speaking allowed. No, just no.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to
24 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, before the witness comes in I do have
2 two matters to bring to your attention. The first is in relation to
3 document 31323 and perhaps Your Honours had not had time to review the
4 same but Your Honours' characterisation of the document to the witness
5 implied that the penalty of 12 years' imprisonment and the admissions of
6 Mr. Perkovic related only to the event in the garage when, in fact, the
7 judgement has multiple murders and multiple sexual assaults and rapes
8 that are incorporated into the guilty finding.
9 That's the first matter I wanted to raise about the
10 characterization as presented to the witness does not comport to the
12 Number 2, as I confirmed with several of my staff including
13 counsel during the break, the witness has had the same visage, the same
14 smiling appearance the entirety of these proceedings this morning, and
15 indeed, that is the way he has been with us when talking throughout the
16 week and I wanted to have that placed on the record as well. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE ORIE: I have another matter: D665 which was admitted this
20 morning should have been admitted under seal and is hereby put under
21 seal. That's the statement -- I'll not further explain at this moment
22 but that is the appropriate way of dealing with it. Indeed I saw that
23 the judgement was about a 12-year imprisonment, Mr. Ivetic. Indeed, if I
24 missed that it was for other -- for other charges as well, then it's --
25 I'll correct that.
1 Witness, when I said 12 years for those who had pleaded guilty
2 for the events in the garage, that I do understand that the sentence
3 imposed did not deal only with that fact but also with other facts.
4 That's hereby corrected.
5 Further, Mr. Ivetic informed me that you may have a kind of a
6 natural smile which should not be misinterpreted. We'll take that into
7 consideration. That doesn't change that you're addressing now and then
8 and seeking eye contact with the Defence part of this courtroom and you
9 are advised not to do that.
10 Ms. Bibles, if there's any -- if you have any further questions,
11 you still have an hour to go so therefore you may proceed.
12 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Your Honour, I would first tender 65 ter 31323 at this time.
14 MR. IVETIC: No objection. I think there's another prior
15 document to that had not been admitted, the list.
16 MS. BIBLES: I believe that's now P6800.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Then the present one just tendered, Madam Registrar, would
19 receive ...
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31323 receives P6801.
21 JUDGE ORIE: P6801 is admitted. Please proceed.
22 MS. BIBLES:
23 Q. Sir, switching topics a little bit and referring more to
24 paragraph 7 of this statement that you prepared for the Mladic Defence.
25 I'd like to talk a little bit about the Rogatica Brigade.
1 First, you've told us that you were, I believe, a driver
2 policeman in the military police of the Rogatica Brigade. Was the
3 commander of the Rogatica Brigade Rajko Kusic?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 31390 on our screens.
6 Q. Sir, coming up on the screen, we'll see a document signed by
7 General Sipcic on 14 June 1992. It appears that's now on our screens.
8 We see in number 2, he's directing various supplies be provided
9 as requested by the Rogatica Brigade. So here, sir, you would agree that
10 by the 14th of June, 1992, the command of the VRS through the SRK was
11 sending supplies to the Rogatica Brigade; correct?
12 A. I am not aware of that because by October 1992, I had been in the
13 village. This happened much earlier, therefore, I cannot confirm it
14 because it was only in October that I joined the brigade command.
15 Q. Let's take a look at another document and see if that assists in
16 understanding this process for you.
17 MS. BIBLES: If we could look at 65 ter 8922.
18 Q. Sir, this is a document from Commander Kusic to the command of
19 the SRK, dated 15 July 1992. Do you recognise Commander Kusic's
20 signature at the bottom?
21 A. I can see that there's a signature underneath the name. Whether
22 this is Rajko Kusic's signature or not, I don't know.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bibles, you called this document as dated
24 15th July, I see it's 15th June.
25 MS. BIBLES: Yes, I was wrong.
1 Q. It is a 15 June 1992 document, sir. I apologise for the mistake
2 in the date. Sir, if you could look at the third paragraph, we see a
3 description of the brigade's officers, junior officers and soldiers, et
4 cetera. Is that consistent with your recollection of the
5 Rogatica Brigade?
6 A. I am telling you again that I came to the brigade command only in
7 October. Whether this was the strength at the time, it may have been so
8 but then again, it might not. I cannot confirm that.
9 Q. Sir, at the very top of the document, I direct your attention to
10 the first paragraph where the commander describes that: "Large numbers
11 of Muslims, mostly women and children, are arriving in the town every
12 day. The people are being moved into the premises of the secondary
13 school centre."
14 Is this the school that you have been talking about?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you see at the top as well that this is described as a
17 regular report to the command of the SRK.
18 A. I don't know when the Rogatica Brigade was placed under the
19 command and at what time it started sending armed reports. I was a
20 regular soldier, therefore I was not familiar with the procedure of when
21 and for how long these reports were being sent.
22 Q. Based on what you see on the screen here, would you agree that
23 by -- certainly by the 15th of June, 1992, that these sort of regular
24 reports were being issued?
25 A. Yes, for this particular date, that is true. But whether it
1 happened on a daily basis, I cannot confirm that.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 8922 and 31390.
3 MR. IVETIC: We would object. I don't think the witness has been
4 able to add anything to the document or attest to any kind of
5 authenticity issues for the document. He stated that he doesn't know so
6 that cannot be a basis for admitting these documents through this
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any objection against them being bar-tabled
9 being connected to the testimony of the witness.
10 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I believe, according to your
11 Chamber guidance, all the bar table motions for the Prosecution should
12 have been filed already. It is improper for the Prosecution to present
13 positive evidence not -- not recognised by a witness during the Defence
14 case in chief.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
16 MS. BIBLES: I would tender it from the bar table, Your Honour.
17 It was raised by the paragraph 7 in the witness's statement with respect
18 to his lack of knowledge about the Rogatica Brigade.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any further response to that, Mr. Ivetic?
20 MR. IVETIC: And again it's not able to be confirmed by the
21 witness, therefore in that sense it's a document that's being presented
22 apart from this witness's testimony.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what Ms. Bibles, I think, expressed by
24 saying that she now sought it be admitted from the bar table.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. It's common practice in
2 this courtroom that documents directly related to the content of the
3 witness may be tendered from the bar table even if the witness is unable
4 to identify the document or --
5 Madam Registrar, the numbers would be?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31390 receives number P6802 and document
7 8922 receives number P6803, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: P6802 and P6803 are admitted.
9 Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.
10 MS. BIBLES:
11 Q. Sir, you've testified that in October of 1992, you were recalled
12 to Rogatica to the brigade command. I'd like to ask you first if you
13 recall at that time that you reported to the SRK?
14 A. Do I recall what?
15 Q. Do you recall that through the brigade command, Rogatica Brigade
16 then went up through the SRK as it went up through the structure of the
18 A. I was called to come to the command of the brigade to work as a
19 driver for the military police, and that was in October.
20 Q. All right. Well, we'll move on.
21 Sir, in paragraph 17 of your -- I'll refer to as the Karadzic
22 statement so that you know which one we're talking about -- you tell us
23 that you were in Rasadnik often enough to know about the meals eaten by
24 the detainees as well as work done by the detainees. Do you also know
25 the warden was Vinko Bosic also known as Vili?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. BIBLES: If we could now have 65 ter 31330 on our screens.
3 Q. Sir, as this comes up on the screen, you'll see that it's a
4 1 February 1993 list of prisoners of war in the Vili camp in Rogatica.
5 As you look at the top of the document, would you agree that this
6 document is referring to what was more commonly known as Rasadnik?
7 A. This refers to the Rasadnik facility and not the Vili facility.
8 The Vili facility did not exist.
9 Q. So by the reference of "Vili", is this referring to prisoners of
10 war as the document stays, that are being held at Rasadnik; is that
11 correct? Have we cleared up that confusion?
12 A. So there was Rasadnik, not Vili. It did not exist at all. There
13 was a military remand detention and the Rasadnik collection centre that
14 had been moved from the secondary school so these are two separate
16 Q. Well, sir, you see at the very top of the page, this is a
17 document the Drina Corps Command dated 1 February 1993. On the top it
18 reads: "Pursuant to your request, we are forwarding the list of
19 prisoners of war in the Vili camp, Rogatica."
20 So there's no confusion. These prisoners of war we're referring
21 to are being held in the Rasadnik facility; correct?
22 A. These are the men that were held at the reception centre although
23 I haven't read the whole list, I don't see that anyone was in the
24 military detention so there was a military detention on one side, and the
25 reception centre on the other.
1 Q. Well, sir, again you appear to be trying to interpret this list
2 in a way that you understand you should be interpreting it.
3 Instead I would rather ask you to just read what this document
4 actually portrays. You would agree the top of the list talks about a
5 list of prisoners of war; correct? That's what it reads on top; correct?
6 A. That's what's written at the top but women were never prisoners
7 of war, at least not in our practice.
8 Q. Well, sir, let's go through the list then. You seem to be
9 anticipating what I was going to ask and that is, as you look down the
10 list, many of the names that you see, the first names are female Muslim
11 names; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That would be Biba or Nura, those are women's names; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at number 4, we see a woman whose first name -- would you
16 agree that number 4 refers to a woman?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you would agree that her date of birth being 1892 meant that
19 she was 101 years old in 1993; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I would tender 31330.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31330 receives number P6804,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
1 MS. BIBLES: If we could now have 65 ter 31329 on our screens,
3 Q. Sir, this as it comes up is a different document. It's a list --
4 I'll wait until it comes up. As this list comes up on your screen, you
5 see that it is a list of "captured persons of Muslim ethnicity," and it
6 is dated 10 April 1993.
7 This list was sent by the Drina Corps Command Lieutenant-Colonel
8 who received the last list that was before you. He's now sending this
9 larger list to the command of the East Bosnia Corps and to the
10 Ministry of Justice and Administration.
11 Now, sir, as you look under Rogatica, you see the same women on
12 this list that were on the previous list. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. BIBLES: And now if we could go down in both versions so we
15 can see number 32. I believe we may have to turn to the next page in
17 Q. If you look at number 32, do you recognise this man?
18 A. This is a male name but I don't know the person myself. But I
19 can deduce that it's a man's name.
20 Q. Sir, isn't it true that in the summer of 1993, you drove a bus
21 from Rasadnik to Zvornik with the Rasadnik warden and with Zoran Carkic
22 filled with prisoners from Rasadnik including this man, number 32, a
23 pregnant woman, and other individuals who were obviously civilians.
24 A. It is not true that I drove a bus. I escorted the bus in a
25 police car as far as Zvornik. These civilians were supposed to be let go
1 through to the territory controlled by the ethnic community that they
2 belonged to. All I did was escort the bus to Zvornik.
3 Q. Sir, you would agree that prior to the date that you escorted the
4 bus on which they were transported, these were civilians who had been
5 detained in Rasadnik; correct?
6 A. These were civilians who were at the reception centre and they
7 were on the list in order to be exchanged along with the others because
8 all of them were supposed to be exchanged. So there was a military
9 detention and a reception centre. These were two different facilities,
10 one next to the other.
11 Q. Well, sir, in your testimony, you've described that you didn't
12 spend a lot of time at Rasadnik. You've been presented with a list of
13 prisoners of war who include clearly civilians, and yet you keep saying
14 that there was a separation at Rasadnik. Isn't it true, sir, that you
15 don't know -- you don't have personal knowledge that the civilians were
16 handled differently and, in fact, the evidence that you've been presented
17 would support that these civilians were considered prisoners of war and
18 were actually being held in the Rasadnik centre as such.
19 A. When I came to Rasadnik, I saw the civilians there in another
20 pavilion adjacent to the one. They were freely moving in front of the
21 pavilion in the courtyard which means that they were not locked up as
22 opposed to the soldiers who were held in detention.
23 Q. Sir, would you agree that these civilians were not free to go
24 and, in fact, to leave, they were placed on a bus and transported under
25 military police escort?
1 A. They requested to cross over to the territory. They couldn't do
2 it independently. They wanted to go to the territory under the control
3 of their own people. It was impossible for them to cross the separation
4 line independently without any prior agreement.
5 Q. Sir, the reason for that is what we've seen and the way they're
6 characterised in these documents and that is captured persons of Muslim
7 ethnicity and prisoners of war. Isn't that accurate? That's the way
8 they came to Rasadnik; isn't that the truth?
9 A. I have to go back to what I said that Rasadnik was a new
10 collection centre. There was a pavilion where they were housed and there
11 was a military detention where the soldiers were kept. However when the
12 academic year started they had to be moved. Therefore, they were free to
13 move around, but they couldn't cross over to a different territory
14 without any agreement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you have described several times now that
16 they were free to move on the yard of where they were kept. Does that
17 mean that they were also free to leave those premises and go home or go
18 to their family?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of the people from the list,
20 specifically from the Burati village and because of the safety situation
21 in the village, they wanted to go to the territory controlled by the army
22 of their own people.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's not my question. My question, where you
24 emphasise several times that you saw them moving on the courtyard. My
25 question was where were they free to leave that courtyard and go to
1 wherever they wished to go?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they could go but they
3 couldn't cross over to the territory that they desired to go to. They
4 wouldn't do that on their own. It had to be organised and based on an
6 JUDGE ORIE: So they could have left the courtyard and could have
7 gone home without any problem; is that your testimony?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not all of them probably
9 didn't have houses that were intact. Some of them were damaged.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that's not my question. My question is
11 whether they wanted to go to their family, to whatever place,
12 irrespective of whether their own houses were destroyed, to go home, to
13 go to wherever they wished to go, is that your testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were free to go but they felt
15 safer there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then that, perception seems to be not very
17 consistent with the words used, that is, "captured" "prisoners of war"
18 are these concepts or these documents all false or what -- do you have an
19 explanation why those who prepared these documents describe them not as
20 civilians free to go wherever they want but as civilians captured and
21 prisoners of war? Do you have any explanation for that use of language
22 by those who drafted these documents?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know why
24 these terms were used in the way they were.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You further told us that they were exchanged.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that they were
2 exchanged. I said they had gone to be exchanged and the agreement
3 concerning the exchange was for them to go to Tuzla from Zvornik.
4 However, the Muslim authorities undermined this agreement and did not
5 allow them to cross over and some of these people were sent back to
6 Rogatica a day or two later because they were banned from entering their
8 JUDGE ORIE: But, but at least you said they were on the list to
9 be exchanged. Why was there an exchange if -- you could just have
10 released them? Why would you need others to receive and return if these
11 people were free to go?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. That's how things
13 were in that case. I don't know what happened. It was beyond me to make
14 any decisions or see to what was going on. My only task was to provide
15 escort all the way to Zvornik.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I understand and I didn't ask you about personal
17 responsibility for that, but where you emphasise so much that they were
18 free to go, at the same time you say, I do not understand why but they
19 were there and supposed to be exchanged. Exchange being a concept which
20 is not very consistent with free choice to go wherever you want.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them there and they were
22 moving around freely in front of the pavilion where they were
23 accommodated. That is where I saw things. It was my estimate. Nobody
24 kept them enclosed there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that they were supposed to be
1 exchanged and for that reason on the list, lists which describe them as
2 being captured and being prisoners of war. We've heard your explanation,
3 Ms. Bibles will now put her next question to you.
4 MS. BIBLES:
5 Q. Sir, I couldn't find it in the transcript. Did you briefly
6 testify that the two Hurkos, the father and son who were in your father's
7 garage were later taken into military detention?
8 A. When I arrived in Rogatica, they were in the military prison.
9 Q. Sir, if you could look at the list in front of you and look at
10 the names under 31 and 33 on this list, aren't they the same individuals?
11 A. Yes, by name.
12 Q. And on the same list is the woman who was 101 years old; isn't
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. BIBLES: 31329.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, the reference you were apparently
17 looking for is -- let me have a look. I had it a second ago. Indeed the
18 transcript reflects that the witness said that they were taken in
19 military detention. It's somewhere on page 21.
20 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour. And I would tender this
21 document, 65 ter 31329.
22 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31329 receives number P6805,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
2 MS. BIBLES: And finally, sir, I'd ask if we could have 31336 on
3 our screens. And I'd ask that we go to page 9 in the English and page 7
4 in the B/C/S.
5 Q. Sir, is this --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, it was 21, line 19.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm afraid it was your question whether they
9 were held in military detention. You asked whether that was correct.
10 And the witness said they were taken away. So not directly confirming
11 that they were taken in military detention.
12 Please proceed.
13 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
14 Q. Sir, on the screen in front of you is a portion of an exhumation
15 report on a mass grave. And this one as we see on the page refers to
16 bodies exhumed from Rasadnik in Rogatica. There were 14 bodies recovered
17 here or exhumed here. The first one that we see here is Hanka Kustura
18 born in 1895.
19 MS. BIBLES: And if we turn the page, looking for number 13.
20 Q. We see a woman who was born in 1898. Following her, is a body of
21 a man who was born in 1928.
22 Sir, isn't it true that a number of civilians died in captivity
23 at Rasadnik?
24 A. I don't know about that. They may have died, but I wouldn't
1 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further
2 questions at this time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Bibles.
4 One second, please.
5 Yes, Judge Moloto has a question for the witness.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: No, for Ms. Bibles. Ms. Bibles, what do you want
7 to do with 31336?
8 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I'll tender this document.
9 MR. IVETIC: There's been no foundation been laid for its
10 admission in this format.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One second. I'm just looking at the document. If
12 you give me just a few seconds to ...
13 Ms. Bibles, your question was whether people died when in
14 Rasadnik. We see that these are relatively old people. Is there any
15 autopsy report available for those witnesses? I mean there was a bit of
16 a suggestion that they may have died not of natural causes and that
17 people at that age, I think we have to be very careful to make any such
19 Now, I had insufficient time to look at it more clearly and I'm
20 not entirely familiar with the document. Could you tell us a bit more
21 about the document which may be relevant for the decision of admission as
23 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. This is a court document from
24 Bosnia. Actually what I was thinking in the interest of time is perhaps
25 we could MFI this document. I would like to investigate the autopsies
1 behind these. I have to admit, I do not have that information at my
2 fingertips and then we could raise this at a later time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Also because it's a mass grave and at the same
4 time I see grave dimensions described here which are not the same which
5 of course for a mass grave is somewhat surprising.
6 I see two metres by 90 centimetres, two and a half metres by one
7 metre and -- it's all relatively unclear to me at this very moment. The
8 document will be marked for identification. Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31336 receives number P6806,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
12 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honours, and I was wondering if counsel
13 could direct to us where it actually says mass grave. I have yet to find
14 except for one number 22 that it is a collective grave. All the others
15 appear to be individual grave sites, not mass graves as was presented.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That may be part, then, of the further
17 clarifications Ms. Bibles will provide us with. And she certainly will
18 also pay attention to what you just observed, Mr. Ivetic.
19 Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour, I do.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:
23 Q. Sir, I'd like to return to the questioning of yourself in
24 relation to Mr. Avdo Palic on behalf of Ms. Bibles earlier today. Were
25 you ever interviewed by the Bosnian authorities in relation to the
1 disappearance of Avdo Palic?
2 A. Yes, I was interviewed at the administration of the crime
3 prevention police in Banja Luka.
4 Q. When, approximately, did that interview take place?
5 A. I really can't remember. It may have been in 2005 or 2008. I
6 really can't remember when exactly -- it was after the events, around
7 that time.
8 Q. Could you tell us what kind of interview was it? Could you
9 describe the interview?
10 A. I was asked whether I knew what happened to Avdo Palic after
11 Bijeljina. I didn't. I was put on a polygraph and it was established by
12 way of using the lie detector that I really didn't know what happened to
13 him after Bijeljina.
14 Q. Okay. Have you been interviewed by the Bosnian authorities
15 relating to Avdo Palic since that one interview where a polygraph was
16 administered and it was established you didn't know what happened to him
17 after Bijeljina?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now I'd like to return with you to the conversation in the
20 automobile while you and Mr. Carkic were driving with Mr. Palic towards
21 Bijeljina. How would you describe the level of familiarity between
22 Mr. Palic on the one hand and Mr. Carkic on the other?
23 A. They had known each other from before because Avdo Palic had
24 worked in the water cleaning facility so their conversation was rather
25 normal during the entire journey to Bijeljina. Avdo Palic was sitting in
1 the car just like we were.
2 Q. How would you describe the mood of those in the automobile?
3 A. Both Palic and Carkic spoke in a very normal way without any
4 tensions as two people who knew each other. As simple as that.
5 Q. Now, if we can go back in time towards the time period when
6 Mr. Palic was at the apartment in Rogatica. Could you perhaps first tell
7 us something about the conditions of the apartment, the living
9 A. The living conditions were equal to living in one's own house.
10 Avdo Palic could use the bathroom. Carkic at one point brought him a
11 change of clothes so he could change into them. It was a proper home
13 Q. Now, during the Prosecution's examination, it was brought up that
14 you had transported some guards to that apartment. Did you ever have an
15 occasion to view the interactions between Mr. Avdo Palic and those
17 A. Avdo Palic and the guards, when I arrived there, played cards.
18 On one occasion when I arrived, they were playing cards. Again, it was a
19 home atmosphere. He was surrounded by a proper home atmosphere.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Just to make everything clear, he was detained
21 there, wasn't he? He was imprisoned in that apartment.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was accommodated there together
23 with -- he could not leave on his own. He was actually moved away so
24 nothing bad would happen to him because apparently Avdo Palic had been in
25 command of an action in Bokcin Potok where 75 people had been killed so
1 he was sheltered from anybody who made -- may have done something bad to
2 him in retaliation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But he was on a list of prisoners of war, wasn't he?
4 I mean if you are in detention, that may provide some safety from attacks
5 from others but it doesn't change the fact that you are in detention.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was on a list of prisoners of
7 war and we saw him on that list.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Mr. Ivetic.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
11 Witness, at page 43, line 8, Mr. Ivetic asked you: "During the
12 Prosecution's examination it was brought up that you had transported some
13 guards to that apartment."
14 Your answer said "When I arrived there, he was playing cards."
15 It looks like you are at cross purposes with Mr. Ivetic.
16 Mr. Ivetic is asking about the guards that you transported there
17 not the guards that you found playing cards. Can you make sure that you
18 are on the save wavelength with Mr. Ivetic.
19 You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
20 MR. IVETIC:
21 Q. Sir, could you answer the Judge's question? Which guards are you
22 talking about? Are you talking about the same guards, the different
23 guards, which guards were playing cards with Mr. Palic?
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are interested in the guards that drove there.
25 MR. IVETIC: Yes, Your Honour I'm trying to find out the
1 witness's answer to find out which guards he's talking about.
2 Q. Could you tell us which guards you were talking about that were
3 playing cards with Mr. Palic?
4 A. Slobodan Obrenovic, Goran Ristanovic and Zdravko or Danko Frganja
5 I can't remember the first name. When I visited them, and when I brought
6 them food, not immediately when I transported them there, when I visited
7 them, when you asked me about the atmosphere that prevailed there, I
8 answered that on one occasion, on one of my visits, I found the guards
9 playing cards with Avdo Palic.
10 Q. And just to be clear, sir, are these the same guards that you had
11 previously transported to the apartment?
12 A. Yes, they were the same people.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just try to make matters clear. You brought
14 guards there, I take it, but please correct me when I'm wrong, to ensure
15 that Mr. Palic would not leave the apartment.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I drove those people there because
17 they were to be accommodated there with Avdo Palic who would protect him,
18 who would protect him from anybody's knee-jerk reaction in retaliation
19 for some past events.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, that's a different concept of being imprisoned.
21 You say he wasn't imprisoned, he was there just to be protected against
22 outsiders. Is that your testimony?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, both protected and kept
25 JUDGE ORIE: So the guards were there to keep him indoors which
1 would at the same time protect him against any outsiders coming in; is
2 that well understood?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
6 Q. Now I'd like to move to another topic, your father's garage and
7 the allegations of Mr. Stojan Perkovic as to the treatment of the Hurko
8 family in the garage. How would you describe the interactions with the
9 Hurkos in the garage?
10 A. When the Hurko family members arrived in the garage, they were
11 not incarcerated there. They were given coffee. Those people -- we knew
12 them, they lived not far away from us. They spent only about 15 minutes
13 there and then Captain Cerovic arrived. They were not ill treated at
14 all. I claim that with full responsibility. As for Perkovic's
15 statement, I don't know under what conditions it was given but I claim
16 with full responsibility that those people were not ill treated at all
17 while they were in the garage.
18 Q. Were either of the Hurkos asked where they had gotten the gun or
19 the ammunition for the gun, the bullets?
20 A. Fejzo and Sefik Hurko were asked where the ammunition had come
21 from and he said that he got them from the Leleks. They were their
22 neighbours and both pistols and ammunition were found on that premises.
23 Q. Now I'd like to move to the bus full of persons that you escorted
24 to Zvornik. Did anyone use force or threats against those being
25 transported in the bus?
1 A. No. They got on the bus and in Zvornik they were accommodated in
2 a centre. I don't know its name. And the following morning, they were
3 either let go or exchanged or I don't know what. In any case, nobody
4 forced them to get on the bus. Nobody ill treated them.
5 Q. What precisely were your orders in relation to escorting the bus?
6 A. My order was to escort the bus from Rogatica to Zvornik and to
7 hand over people to somebody. Captain Carkic did that. They were
8 accommodated and then early in the morning, the next day, they were -- I
9 don't know, exchanged or released or something. I don't know what
11 Q. Now, you said earlier today that some of these people had been
12 banned from entering their territory. Who banned them?
13 A. Muslim authorities obstructed the agreement on letting them go to
14 the territory in the direction of Tuzla. I don't know why. It was their
15 authorities who did not allow them to enter their own territory.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, could you clarify the use of the
17 language "their territory." I mean had they lived in that area before?
18 Witness, had they lived at the other side of the line or ...?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't live on the other side
20 of the line. They requested to be allowed to go to the territory
21 controlled by the army of their own people.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You would say, therefore, if you refer to "their
23 territory," you do not mean the territory where they had lived before but
24 you mean the territory controlled by the Muslim authorities. Is that
25 well understood?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
3 MR. IVETIC: Your Honour, my question intended "their territory"
4 being the "their" of the people who banned them. That was how my
5 question was phrased, that someone had banned them from coming to "their
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I do understand that the witness considered
8 their territory, and that's how I understood him previously as well, is
9 Muslim-controlled territory rather than the territory in which they had
10 lived before which the witness now confirmed. But apparently you had a
11 different -- well, not necessarily different, not necessarily
12 contradicting, but at least not based on the same thought.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. IVETIC:
15 Q. I forget, sir, did you answer if you had any knowledge of why the
16 Muslim authorities banned these persons from entering the territory?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Thank you, sir, for answering my questions today, again on behalf
19 of the rest of my team and my client.
20 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, that is all I had for redirect
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, any further questions.
23 MS. BIBLES: No, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: This, then, Mr. Andric concludes your testimony in
25 this Court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
1 for having answered all the questions that were put to you, whether these
2 were questions put to you by the parties or by the Bench. I wish you a
3 safe return home again and you may now follow the usher.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, there are two procedural matters I'd like to
6 briefly raise with the parties.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, there's an observation, Mr. Ivetic.
9 Earlier today you corrected the transcript and the interpretation. Why I
10 didn't intervene because I didn't think that there was much reason to do
11 it, although I would strictly adhere to such corrections to be made after
12 we have heard transcribers and/or interpreters or having verified on the
13 basis of the audio whether a mistake as you think it was made, was made
14 in fact.
15 Again, it sounded all very logical but I'd like to strictly
16 adhere to that procedure for the future.
17 And then I have another question, and this is addressing you,
18 Mr. Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic, I was encouraged by Mr. Ivetic to read a
19 bit more in the judgement in the Perkovic case, I saw that a counsel was
20 appearing there by the name of Miodrag Stojanovic. Was it you?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I then understand well that you were assisting
23 someone who pleaded guilty on matters which seem to be part of this case
24 as well and at the same time, the Defence presents evidence in this case
25 to suggest more or less that the guilty plea was a false one and when the
1 witness said several times, well, I don't know under what circumstances
2 he gave his statement and he pleaded guilty, that as a matter of fact, it
3 was under your guidance that Mr. Perkovic, at least that's what I read in
4 the judgement, made that statement which seems to be -- there may well be
5 a conflict of interest between your present client and the client you
6 defended at that time. And I wondered what your view on that matter is.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the
8 Stojan Perkovic case, I joined them during the proceedings when they
9 already started discussing the plea deal with Radivoje Lazarevic. My
10 task in that case was to assist in establishing the severity of the
11 sentence and the cooperation that Stojan Perkovic offered during the
13 Now, what is stated in the judgement and what Perkovic said in
14 his guilty plea on the facts is up to Perkovic. I, as Stojanovic, cannot
15 say whether he told the full truth or not. He accepted the deal but my
16 obligation was -- to warn him that he should say everything he knew.
17 Also, I acted as defence counsel of Mico Andric's father before
18 the Cantonal Court, the trial that lasted from 1992 to 2000 in which he
19 was acquitted of all guilt. So I was fully aware of the fact that
20 today's witness, Novica Andric claims that this event never occurred.
21 I don't know whether this was really the case or not.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course you do not know. But you take a
23 procedural position, I take it that you would not have represented
24 Mr. Perkovic in the way you did, apart from what the judgement says about
25 what you did, but if you would believe that the guilty plea was false,
1 was untruthful. I take it that you would have stepped back from further
2 arguing about the sentence if you considered it to be on a totally false
3 basis. Would you?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours,
5 but I don't know whether it is truthful or false. It's quite clear.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Of course not. Counsel will never know because they
7 were not present at the time.
8 What I establish at this moment is that the Defence position in
9 relation to the events in the garage are squarely contradicting the
10 defence position taken in the Perkovic defence and I -- perhaps I, at
11 this moment, invite you to further consider the aspect of conflict of
12 interests in defending Mr. Mladic and Mr. Perkovic and apparently you
13 have added an Andric case as well.
14 I would like you to think about it and so will the Chamber do.
15 We take a break. We will resume in 20 minutes from now. That's
16 25 minutes past 12.00 and is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be Mr. Bubic.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
20 MR. IVETIC: One procedural matter, Your Honours, we still had
21 the associated exhibits for Mr. Andric. Should we deal with that at the
22 beginning of next session. It should be brief.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any -- have the parties agreed on whether
24 anything objects -- is against admission.
25 MS. BIBLES: There's four photographs and three district court of
1 Sarajevo judgements. We do not object to any of those coming in.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Ivetic, if you could provide
3 Madam Registrar with a short list, she'll then read it, give the numbers
4 and we'll decide on admission immediately after the break.
5 MR. IVETIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I will do that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes
7 past 12.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I first deal with the associated exhibits for
11 Witness Andric. I received the list from Madam Registrar.
12 65 ter 1D04368 is admitted as D667.
13 1D04369 is admitted as D668. 1D04370 is admitted as D669.
14 1D04371 is admitted as D670. 1D04372 is admitted as D671. 1D04373 is
15 admitted as D672. 1D04374 is admitted as D673.
16 There's another matter which I'd like to briefly address. That
17 is the reference to a polygraph test which was referred to by the
18 witness. I don't think I'm telling any of the parties a secret that the
19 use of polygraph tests for evidentiary purposes is a -- well, to say the
20 least, a well contested issue and in many systems of criminal procedure
21 not admissible.
22 Nevertheless, here now through the back door, the reliability of
23 the testimony given by this witness in this Court is supported by a
24 reference to an earlier statement he gave, a similar statement, which was
25 then -- was then subject to a polygraph test.
1 Now, first of all, both the witness and Mr. Ivetic said that the
2 polygraph test showed that he had no knowledge. I take it, Mr. Ivetic,
3 that you wanted to say that the poly -- the outcome of the polygraph test
4 was such that the test didn't give a reason to be suspicious about
5 whether the witness told the truth or not because polygraph tests are
6 unable to tell us what happened.
7 Apart from this technical observation, if the Defence considers
8 the evidence of the witness referring to this polygraph test has any
9 probative value then the Chamber would like to see -- and the statement
10 and the relevant information about the application of the polygraph test.
11 Another matter is whether we should admit such evidence even if
12 further information is provided and even if you would have seen the
13 statement, whether this polygraph information is admissible evidence at
14 all. And the Chamber invites the parties to present their positions on
15 the matter, not necessarily immediately, but here you are on your feet,
16 Mr. Ivetic.
17 MR. IVETIC: I can report that this very same evidence was led
18 and introduced in the Karadzic proceedings.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Was the issue of the use of polygraph information,
20 was that made the subject of any further discussion?
21 MR. IVETIC: To my knowledge, it was not raised at all by any of
22 the parties.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then the fact that it was admitted could mean two
24 things, that everyone would automatically accept this as relevant and
25 probative, or that the parties and the Bench - and of course I'm hesitant
1 to say it - missed that point.
2 The Chamber would like to hear further from the parties on the
3 issues I raised a minute ago.
4 Then if the Defence is ready to call its next witness, we'll ask
5 the usher to escort Mr. Bubic into the courtroom.
6 For the polygraph, a week, would that be good enough? I'm
7 looking at you, Mr. Ivetic, and I'm looking at you, Ms. Bibles.
8 MS. BIBLES: Certainly, Your Honour, both with respect to how it
9 was used in either the Karadzic case or not used in the Karadzic case and
10 with respect to this Court's consideration of the admissibility of such
11 evidence, I think a week would be sufficient.
12 MR. IVETIC: For us a week would not be sufficient is we have to
13 track down from the BiH authorities the source documents for the same
14 since I do not have them or I would have relied on them in the
15 examination itself.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Have you seen that statement apart from the
18 polygraph test, you have not seen the statement.
19 MR. IVETIC: No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So the only thing we have at this moment -- the only
21 thing that we have at this moment is the testimony of the witness about
22 such a statement taken, what the content of the statement was, whether
23 there was any polygraph test made, et cetera. We just have his testimony
24 about that.
25 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you'll have more time. Please indicate,
2 Mr. Ivetic, on how much time you'd need. Because it may be difficult to
3 forecast at this moment.
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Bubic.
5 Mr. Bubic, before you give evidence, the rules require that you
6 make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.
7 I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Greetings to
9 everybody in the court.
10 I solemnly swear that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and
11 nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: OBRAD BUBIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bubic, please be seated.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bubic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.
17 You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left. He's almost standing, it takes him a
18 minute to get up. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
19 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bubic. Did you hear me?
23 Good afternoon, Mr. Bubic.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. Would you please state your full name for the record slowly.
1 A. My name is Obrad Bubic.
2 Q. Did you give a statement to members of the Defence counsel team
3 of General Mladic in the past?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: Could we please have on our screens 1D1706, please.
6 And I would kindly ask the assistance from the usher to deliver this same
7 statement in hard copy to Mr. Bubic.
8 Can you show it to the Prosecution, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just have to take another pair of
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Bubic, you can see both on the screen in front of you and the
13 hard copy of this document. Can you see a signature on this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise it?
16 A. Yes, this is my signature.
17 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the last page of the same document,
19 Q. [Interpretation] You can see on the screen and I see that you're
20 looking at the last page, do you see your signature?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recognise it?
23 A. Yes, absolutely.
24 Q. Whose signature is that?
25 A. Mine.
1 Q. When you were giving this statement to the representatives of the
2 Defence team of General Mladic, did you say the truth and does your
3 statement contain truthful statements?
4 A. Yes, absolutely.
5 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you give
6 the same answers?
7 A. I think so.
8 Q. I'm now going to read a summary statement of your statement. And
9 please, be patient.
10 A. No problem.
11 MR. LUKIC: I tender this statement into evidence, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1074 receives number D674,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
16 MR. LUKIC: With your leave, I would just read the summary
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
20 Bubic Obrad asserts that the creation of ethnic political parties
21 instigated ethnic hostilities and arming the people. His statements are
22 given for the Kotor Varos area.
23 He knows that after the withdrawal from the theatre of operations
24 in Croatia in 1991 and 1992, the 22nd Infantry Brigade was deployed in
25 Kotor Varos area with the task to prevent interethnic conflicts. The
1 commander of the 22nd Infantry Brigade was Bosko Peulic.
2 Bubic underlines that the Muslim-Croatian units were intensively
3 arming themselves and that he personally witnessed it during his
5 The taking over of power and taking the situation under the Serb
6 control took place in Kotor Varos on 11th June, 1992. The army did not
7 take part in these events nor arrested non-Serbs.
8 He believes that the Muslims and Croats prepared themselves for
9 the war in an organised and planned manner. His claims are supported by
10 the material-technical means he saw in the area where he was captured.
11 He talks about the great number of members of police and the RS
12 army on the 29th of June, 1992, in course of the military campaign in
13 village Vecici.
14 And he will testify about the number of these police and army
15 members killed in this attack on Vecici in June of 1992.
16 In Rujevica area on the Teslic-Kotor Varos road, the vehicle
17 carrying Obrad Bubic, this witness, Stevan Markovic, Milan Stevilovic and
18 Novo Petrusic was ambushed and shot at from both sides of the road.
19 Bubic was the only survivor. He was captured by the uniformed and armed
20 members of the B and H army. He was beaten savagely by the people known
21 to him.
22 That was short summary of the statement of this witness and I
23 would just have several questions for this witness, Your Honour, with
24 your --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, before you do that, could you just tell us
1 one more time the 65 ter number of this statement D674. There are three
2 numbers that have been flying around.
3 MR. LUKIC: The 65 ter number is 1D01706.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: 01706. Thank you so much. Because it's recorded
5 on here as 1074.
6 JUDGE ORIE: This adds to the confusion. I think Madam Registrar
7 read or at least that's how it was recorded that the document was 1D1074
8 but she now corrects it. She corrects it by saying that the statement is
9 number 1D1076, at least that is the document that was shown on our
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, that's correct.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And this is then the final determination of what
13 document is admitted as D674.
14 MR. LUKIC: In these matters I trust Madam Registrar more than
16 JUDGE ORIE: So I do, Mr. Lukic.
17 Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is aware of the existence of a proofing
18 note which seems to give either further explanation or corrections. I do
19 not know whether you want to deal with that proofing note or not. It's
20 about paragraph 19.
21 MR. LUKIC: I think it's addition, it's not correction. It's
22 more explanation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Do you want it to be in evidence as well?
24 Because if so, then you would have to put it to the witness and tender
25 it. It's so short, that we could even read it or you could read it to
1 the witness.
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
4 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, please open your statement and look
6 at paragraph 19.
7 Mr. Bubic, paragraph 19 of your statement. You have it in hard
8 copy on your desk.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In e-court, this should be the
10 penultimate page in both versions. We are interested in paragraph 19.
11 Q. Yesterday, when you and I spoke, Mr. Bubic, you drew my attention
12 to the fact that we should explore the first sentence in paragraph 19 and
13 explain some things in it.
14 In the original, this sentence reads, "On one occasion, I
15 happened to be in Zaberdje village." And then you told me that the
16 sentence should be introduced by some other words, I announced that to
17 the Prosecutor and the Trial Chamber yesterday. I will read that
18 introduction and you just tell me whether my understanding of the way you
19 wanted to explain that sentence was correct.
20 This is what I wrote down, and I informed the Prosecutor and the
21 Trial Chamber of that. [In English] And I quote: "The witness explained
22 during the proofing session today that he did not find himself there by
23 pure chance, but he was sent to Zaberdje by his command to be present
24 during the departures of Croats and Muslims from Kotor Varos. His task
25 was to see if he would recognise somebody among them who had tortured him
1 and if he did, he should report such people to the military police who
2 would then take them to the command of the military police for
4 [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, is this a true reflection of your
6 A. Yes.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the counsel be reminded
8 they speak the same language and they should pause between questions and
9 answers. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you are invited to pause between question
11 and answer.
12 And you, Witness, as well. Once a question has been put to you,
13 just make a little pause before you answer it.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, is there any need now for us to tender
16 this proofing note or --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think you've read it in its entirety.
18 It is a true reflection of your words, Witness, and it's also in
19 accordance with the truth, I take it, since you've taken the solemn
21 Could you confirm that, that it's in accordance with the truth?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
23 MR. LUKIC: And with your leave, Your Honour, I would have
24 several questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. LUKIC: If we can have paragraph 9 on our screens from the
2 witness's statement. It's page 3 in B/C/S version and we have it the
3 English version as well.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, as you can see in this paragraph, you
5 describe combat around Vecici on the 29th of June, 1992. And you also
6 talk about the Serbian fighters who were killed. Were there any
7 imprisoned Serbs, those who were taken prisoner by the Muslim forces
8 during that combat?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened to them, to those who were captured?
11 A. As far as I know, some were horrendously tortured. Again, as far
12 as I know, they were torched with some burners and their screams were
13 heard hundreds of metres away from the site where that was happening. I
14 don't know how the others fared, unfortunately, their bodies were
15 returned, they were not returned alive.
16 Q. What was -- what kind of mood was created among the Serbian
17 population of Kotor Varos when they heard how the imprisoned Serbian
18 soldiers and police officers had fared?
19 A. Due to the deaths of some people and their imprisonment, national
20 tensions came to a head and the people simply wanted to retaliate. From
21 that moment on, it was no longer conceivable for the people to live
22 together. By the way, I would like to add that it took some five or six
23 days if not longer, perhaps even seven, for the dead bodies to be taken
24 over and buried in keeping with the customs of the Orthodox faith.
25 I was among those who attended the funerals of three of those
1 people. They were my neighbours. They lived very close to my weekend
2 cottage, which was some 10 kilometres away from Kotor Varos. That
3 funeral was carried out under very hard conditions because on the Muslim
4 side, sniper fire was opened on those who attended the funeral. It was
5 only when the military intervened and fired a few tank rounds that the
6 situation calmed down and those people could be buried with dignity.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, just one observation about those who were
8 taken prisoner. Where they were taken, how many, who they were, all
9 details which would allow for verification of the accuracy of what the
10 witness tells us are absent. I just would like to say this because often
11 it assists the Chamber in receiving documents or post mortems or where
12 these people were found, if they survived; where they were found if they
13 did not survive. All that information is relevant to test the accuracy
14 of the evidence and it's missing.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, could you please tell us the names of
18 those three people whose funeral you attended?
19 A. Radan Kupresak, Jeftimir, whose family name I can't remember at
20 this moment. And the third man was Naric and I can't remember his first
22 Q. Did you know the father of any of those who were killed in that
24 A. I knew of Radan Kupresak's father who was my neighbour up there
25 and throughout the entire post-war period, we spoke about that only once
1 because he just can't talk about that. According to him, he heard who
2 had killed his son and other things like that. I, however, don't know
4 And as for the young man Naric whose name I can't remember at the
5 moment, I know his sister. Again, I can't remember her name either. She
6 still lives in Kotor Varos and she lives with very painful memories of
7 all those events.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we really need a bit more in order to
9 rely on all this.
10 Can you tell us, were you present when Radan Kupresak was
11 captured, when he was taken prisoner?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not present. On that
13 day, I was in Kotor Varos.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, how did you hear from him being taken prisoner?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His fellow combatants told us that
16 as well as their friends, but there is a very important thing in all
17 that. Radan and the other two, or rather their bodies were pulled out
18 from the area on the 4th of July but I know that one lad had been
19 captured --
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you would not mind, I'll take it step by step.
21 Let's start with Kupresak. How was his body returned? Who
22 returned it on, as you said, the 4th of July?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An agreement had been reached with
24 the Muslim side for the hand-over of 19 bodies. Among those 19 dead,
25 there were the three men whom I have mentioned.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you know what exactly the cause of death of
2 Kupresak was?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know for sure that he was not killed in
5 combat but that he was killed in -- or he died, I should say, in
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be sure of that. I wasn't
8 there. However, I heard that from his fellow combatants who claim that
9 when he was captured, he was alive.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Did you ever speak to his father about his wounds?
13 A. As I've already told you, his father is a man of very few words.
14 He says very little. However, on one occasion, we happened to talk after
15 I was taken prisoner and his father told me, "You lucked out. You're
16 still alive and my Radan is dead." He never shared any details with me.
17 Q. Thank you. I will come back to Vecici. Let me ask you something
18 else. Do you know if the Serbs negotiated with the representatives of
19 the combatants from Vecici, did they ask them to hand over weapons?
20 A. Yes, I know that. On several occasions, there were talks to that
21 effect. Two officers of the Serbian army went there to negotiate,
22 together with the imam of the Muslim religious community and the priest
23 who represented the Catholic community. There were several such rounds
24 of negotiations but please don't take my word for granted if I tell you
25 that the massacre that happened and that we are talking about when so
1 many people were killed was a plot by the other side to get hold of the
2 weapons to kill them with. I'm not sure about that. I'm just telling
3 you about this as a citizen.
4 Q. All right. This is your impression.
5 A. Yes, this is my personal opinion.
6 Q. However, do you know which two officers attended these
8 A. Bosko Peulic, a colonel, and Slobodan Zupljanin. I think he was
9 a major at the time along with the priests and clergy that I mentioned
10 and the people from the Islamic religious community. I also know that
11 they were joined by a reputable entrepreneur from Kotor Varos who was
12 believed and is still believed to be a very honourable man. His name is
13 Hamid Bajric. He has a wood manufacturing company, and he went with them
14 to attend these negotiations. As for the hodza, I don't know who he was
15 and I think that the name of the Catholic priest was Adolf but I'm not
16 sure. As I said, the negotiations took place on several occasions.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us, you mentioned Hamid Bajric,
18 can you tell us his ethnicity?
19 A. He's a Muslim, and he still lives in Kotor Varos. He has his own
20 company that manufactures wooden products.
21 Q. Thank you. What was the attitude of the armed members of the
22 ABiH from Vecici with regard to the requests of the Serbian side for them
23 to surrender their weapons, do you know that?
24 A. No, I don't, but I heard from some informal and unofficial
25 sources that they had said that they would never surrender their weapons.
1 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Bubic. I have no further questions for you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we'll start the cross-examination, Mr. Bubic,
3 I have one question for you. You are telling us about negotiations where
4 Muslims are required to surrender their weapons. Was there ever any
5 discussion about the Serbs rendering their weapons to the Muslim side?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I know of that. I don't
7 think that happened because the negotiations were conducted both with the
8 Croats and the Muslims. There were several examples to the effect that
9 in various villages and hamlets, both the Muslims and the Croats agreed
10 to surrender their weapons.
11 For example, the village of Zaberdje surrendered their weapon and
12 none of them came into harm's way.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm putting this question to you focussing on
14 whether it was ever requested from Serbs to hand over their weapons to
15 whomever. I'm not insisting on Muslims or Croats.
16 What was the basis for the claim that non-Serbs had to render
17 their weapons to the Serbs and why not the other way around?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Lukic, and I'm addressing the whole
20 of the Defence team, at many, many, many occasions, it was without any
21 further explanation it was taken for granted that one party had to
22 surrender the weapons to the other party without ever exploring what the
23 basis for such claims was.
24 Now I'm not inviting you to deal with all of that with each of
25 the witnesses, but it seems to be left aside whether -- where it may have
1 not a central position in this case but at least it needs some
2 explanation now and then why A should surrender their weapons to B rather
3 than B surrender their weapons to A.
4 I leave it to that at this moment and I'm not exploring this
5 further with this witness, certainly not.
6 Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do that, Mr. Traldi, can I just clarify
8 something with the witness.
9 Mr. Bubic, in reading the summary of your testimony, Mr. Lukic
10 said the following at page 57, starting at line 19, "The taking over of
11 power and taking the situation under the Serb control took place in
12 Kotor Varos on the 11th June in 1992. The army did not take part in
13 these events, nor arrest non-Serbs." Do you confirm that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, that was the
16 JUDGE MOLOTO: Who took over control then, if it was not the
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff. That was
19 probably established at a municipality assembly meeting.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Crisis Staff took over power?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would have nevertheless one or two follow-up
25 You said the Crisis Staff that was probably established at a
1 municipality assembly meeting, assembly of what, exactly. What is a
2 multi-ethnic assembly at which the Crisis Staff was established or was it
3 a Serb municipal assembly?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb municipal assembly,
5 because it was well known that on 11th of June, a session of the
6 municipal assembly was held in Kotor Varos as a result of which the Serbs
7 took over the entire power into their hands.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But the other ethnicities were not represented in
9 that assembly.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether they were
11 represented. I don't think they were. But I cannot say anything with
12 any degree of certainty. I know that in the municipal assembly, there
13 were still Muslims and Croats who continued to work. Whether they were
14 directly involved in the organs of the municipality or not, I cannot say.
15 JUDGE ORIE: This, of course, is exactly the issue, whether there
16 was a Serb municipal assembly functioning parallel to the multi-ethnic
17 elected municipal assembly.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to answer that
20 JUDGE ORIE: I can't tell you. My question is clear. You are
21 talking about a municipal assembly which you said had established the
22 Crisis Staff and I'm exploring what municipal assembly you're talking
24 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, if I may assist.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. LUKIC: Paragraph 5, last two sentences would, I think, be of
2 assistance. If we could have it on our screens as well, paragraph 5 in
3 both versions, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I see that the Serb leadership, what the
5 authority of the Serb leadership was in this respect and what kind of an
6 assembly it then was, it still unclear to me.
7 I am not surprised that -- well, let's leave it to that.
8 The witness asked about it, has given the answers he has now
10 A Crisis Staff, Witness, was the army, that is, the VRS,
11 represented in the Crisis Staff?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. Those were
13 purely civilian organs.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Crisis Staff was composed purely of civilians?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Crisis Staff, were other than the Serb
17 ethnicity represented in the Crisis Staff?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but I don't think so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Lukic drew my attention to where your
20 statement reads, "The Serb leadership called a meeting of the municipal
21 assembly and decided to place the municipality under their control."
22 Do you know whether the Serb leadership, when calling a meeting
23 for the assembly, also invited non-Serb members to participate in that
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to some stories I heard,
1 yes, but I cannot be absolutely sure about this because I heard that some
2 of them refused to respond but these were just rumours. I have no
3 official information about this.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether they were present during that
5 meeting of the assembly, that is, non-Serbs?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a small number were present.
7 Now, whether they took part in the decision-making process, I don't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You'd say members, non-Serb members were present but
9 they did not take part in the decision making. Do you mean to say that
10 they did not support the decision?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's only my supposition that
12 they abstained from declaring their position but they remained working as
13 part of the administration of the municipality.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say you don't know but this is your
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Traldi, are you ready --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: But Mr. Bubic, at page 68, lines 15, when you were
19 asked whether this was a multi-ethnic assembly or the Serb assembly, you
20 said the Serb assembly because it was well known that on the 11th of
21 June, a session of the municipal assembly was held in Kotor Varos as a
22 result of which the Serbs took over the entire power into their hands.
23 So you did tell us it was the Serb assembly. Now you're saying
24 there were other people present. Just bear that in mind.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, are you ready to start your
2 MR. TRALDI: I am, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'm also looking at the clock. You have five
4 minutes before the break unless you would prefer to start your
5 cross-examination after the break.
6 MR. TRALDI: I'm in your hands.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's get started and see how far we come.
8 Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. Mr. Traldi
9 is counsel for the Prosecution and you find him standing to your right.
10 Please proceed.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
13 A. Good afternoon.
14 Q. Sir, just a couple of quick background questions to start. You
15 gave two statements to the VRS military police during the war; correct?
16 A. Quite possible.
17 Q. You were interviewed shortly after your exchange; correct?
18 A. There were several interviews. Who knows how many of them there
20 Q. And then again in 1995, among any other times?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You also wrote a book about your experiences?
23 A. Yes, I did, but the book mainly describes my time in captivity
24 and how I was treated by other people. This is more or less a kind of
25 psychological analysis of what prompted those people to harbour such
1 motivations that were totally contrary to any generally-accepted human
2 values. I quite simply wanted to leave a legacy for the generations to
3 come, to my grandchildren, so that they know what their grandfather had
4 gone through. My intention was never to condemn anyone.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Traldi, was the question not answered?
6 MR. TRALDI: Several lines ago, yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, before the war, did you have a house in the village of
9 A. Yes, that's the weekend cottage that I built in 1982.
10 Q. I'd like to turn now to your service in the Territorial Defence
11 and the VRS. You mentioned in your statement you were mobilised in early
12 June 1992. You received a summons from the defence secretariat to report
13 to the town command; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And your immediate superior at this time was
16 Captain Gojko Stolic; correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And you became a commander of a group of guards, didn't you?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. You were initially stationed in front of a group of buildings in
21 Kotor Varos town; right?
22 A. Yes. That was precisely in front of a cluster of buildings where
23 I myself resided.
24 Q. Those buildings were called Kocka 1, 2 and 3; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you mentioned you resided there, those were residential
2 high-rise apartment buildings; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At this time, the Territorial Defence command was located in the
5 same building as the Secretariat For National Defence and the police
6 headquarters; right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And the guards which at this point were based in town several
9 days after the takeover were relocated to the suburbs; right? And by the
10 guards, I mean your unit that you were commander of.
11 A. I remained for a long time at this very location near the
12 buildings on the hills, about a month or so. After learning that we were
13 going to be attacked from the surrounding villages by Muslims and Croats,
14 the command of the company or rather the Territorial Defence established
15 a line, a defence line, along which we were deployed in order to defend
16 the town from the extremists' attack and that was in the suburbs of the
18 Q. And you were on a hill named Rujika; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who gave you -- you said the command of the company or rather the
21 Territorial Defence established the line. Who ordered you to go there?
22 A. Captain Stolic.
23 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock and it would
24 be an opportune moment for a break if that suits the Bench.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It suits us well.
1 Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes. You're invited to follow
2 the usher.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume at ten minutes to 2.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 1.28 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Not an audible volume.
9 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
10 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you briefly now about the Serb military
12 formations in Kotor Varos respectively the Territorial Defence, the
13 Kotor Varos Light Brigade and the 22nd Brigade.
14 First, as of June 1992, Kotor Varos had a Territorial Defence
15 establishment that was the size of a light brigade; right?
16 A. I don't know when that started, but yes, it did have a light
17 infantry brigade. I don't know as of when.
18 Q. I think you've answered a slightly different question than the
19 one I asked. So let's start very specifically with the
20 Territorial Defence. Before the war, the Territorial Defence
21 establishment in Kotor Varos was the same size in numerical strength as a
22 light brigade would be; right?
23 A. I don't think so.
24 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31373, page 15. And this will
25 be your testimony in the Stanisic Zupljanin case.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, it's 31373 is it what I had asked for. I'll
3 be asking for page 15.
4 Q. Now, starting in the middle of line 11, you testified as follows:
5 "According to some Territorial Defence rules, I suppose, before
6 the war every village or town had a war establishment of the size of a
7 light brigade; Banja Luka had several, Laktasi had one, Gradiste had one,
8 likewise Kotor Varos also established its own brigade."
9 Now, it appears that in this portion of your Stanisic Zupljanin
10 testimony, you're discussing the strength and size of the Territorial
11 Defence before the war; is that right?
12 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, I have to object here and I think that the
13 next sentence actually exactly explains what the witness was thinking or
14 which time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is ambiguous in the early part it starts
16 with, "Before the war every village had..." et cetera, and then at the
17 end, apparently -- perhaps Mr. Traldi, you seek to clarify this because
18 the paragraph you're reading you're leaving out the part which puts it
19 beyond the beginning of the war, before the war, whereas the beginning of
20 this ...
21 MR. TRALDI: Well, my understanding of the paragraph, and I'm
22 happy to clarify, is that the last sentence clarifies the portion
23 starting at likewise Kotor Varos.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Seek clarification with the witness.
25 MR. TRALDI: Okay.
1 Q. Sir, so first, just to help us distinguish between these three
2 formations. The Kotor Varos Territorial Defence was eventually
3 transformed into the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade of the VRS;
5 A. When I spoke about the strength of the Territorial Defence, I
6 wanted to say that every village in the municipality had a local unit as
7 far as I know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please focus on the question.
9 That was whether the Kotor Varos Territorial Defence was eventually
10 transformed into the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade. Was it or was
11 it not?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that was the case, yes
14 MR. TRALDI: Okay.
15 Q. Now, before the transformation and I think you were starting to
16 discuss this a moment ago, was the strength of the Kotor Varos
17 Territorial Defence approximately the strength of a light brigade, taking
18 the various Serb villages and the municipality together?
19 A. I suppose so, as soon as the brigade was established.
20 Q. The commander of the light brigade once it was established was
21 Dusan Novakovic; right?
22 A. I'm not absolutely sure about that.
23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... beginning of the same
24 document. Actually that's what we're on.
25 MR. TRALDI: Can we scroll to the bottom of the page.
1 Q. Now, in your Stanisic Zupljanin testimony you were asked: "Do
2 you know who the commander of that brigade was, the Kotor Varos light
4 And you answered: "Yes. The commander of that brigade was --"
5 MR. TRALDI: Then we turn to the next page.
6 Q. " -- Lieutenant-Colonel Dusan Novakovic. He is from Banja Luka."
7 A. Yes. Yes. But before him, there was either Manojlo Tepic or
8 Gojko Stolic, I'm not sure. In any case, I know that when I came back
9 from the prison, I found a new commander there and that was
10 Dusan Novakovic.
11 Q. Now the commander you interacted with was your direct superior
12 Captain Stolic; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If we could please have 31381.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it sounds as if it's getting better now.
16 Mr. Traldi, could you resume --
17 MR. TRALDI: If we could please have 65 ter 31381.
18 Q. You just mentioned Manojlo Tepic and in paragraph 3 of your
19 statement you say he was the commander of the TO as well when you first
20 joined as well; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that's correct. However, when the brigade was established,
22 he joined the brigade. Or perhaps he remained as the chief of the
23 military department of the military. I don't know. I believe that there
24 was a time when he was simultaneously the brigade commander before
25 Novakovic joined, for a short time, that was.
1 Q. Well, sir, I think this might help clarify some of that.
2 What we're seeing here is an order from the commander of the
3 Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade dated the 8th of June, 1992. And we
4 see at the bottom that the commander is identified as
5 Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic. And it says under point A:
6 "The following is posted as per the war-time establishment into
7 the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade. Tepic, son of Ljubo, Manojlo,
9 So were you aware that at the time you were mobilised the person
10 you identified as TO commander was also and it says here the chief of the
11 Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade. Did you know that?
12 A. Whether he was chief or commander, I don't know. But he was with
13 the brigade. He was in the brigade but I don't know at what position.
14 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'd tender this document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31381 receives number P6807,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P6807 is admitted into evidence.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Now, sir, the Kotor Varos light brigade had companies in the
21 villages of Kotor Varos, Vrbanjci, Maslovare and Grabovica; right?
22 A. And Liplje.
23 Q. As well as in Vagani, right?
24 A. Vagani, yes.
25 Q. Now do you know where Grabovica, the Grabovica company had its
2 A. I don't know that.
3 Q. Now, when you joined the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade, your
4 immediate superior was Captain Stolic just like it had been in the TO;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, turning to the 22nd Brigade, you mentioned in paragraph 2 of
8 your statement that it was deployed in the region of Kotor Varos and its
9 commander was Colonel Peulic. A battalion of the brigade was based at
10 Maslovare; right?
11 A. I have not been receiving interpretation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. Turning to the 22nd Brigade, you mentioned in paragraph 2 of your
15 statement that it was deployed in the region of Kotor Varos. Are you
16 receiving interpretation now?
17 A. Yes. Now I can hear the interpreter.
18 Q. Now the commander of that brigade was Colonel Bosko Peulic;
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the battalion of the brigade was based at Maslovare; right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You mentioned Slobodan Zupljanin in connection with the
24 negotiations at Vecici, he was the commander of that battalion; right?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And you knew that --
2 A. I apologise, I apologise. I beg your pardon. I believe that he
3 was a negotiator and that he went to negotiate in his capacity as the
4 chief of the brigade not the commander of a battalion.
5 Q. Now, you knew at the time that Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic was in
6 charge of a wider region not just Kotor Varos; right?
7 A. I've heard of that.
8 Q. And you don't know anything else about the organisation of the
9 22nd Brigade; right?
10 A. I really don't, no.
11 Q. When you joined the Kotor Varos light brigade yourself, you
12 mentioned you were commander of the logistics battalion. Where was that
13 battalion stationed?
14 A. You misspoke. I was never the commander of the logistics
15 battalion. I was a platoon commander.
16 Q. Sorry. Commander of the logistics platoon.
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And where were you stationed?
19 A. At the command in Kotor Varos.
20 Q. Where in Kotor Varos was that?
21 A. Our command was in the building of the workers university in
22 Kotor Varos, in the very centre of the city.
23 Q. I want to take you back now to your time guarding Kocka 1, 2 and
24 3. Your task was not to let the population out of the buildings and to
25 make sure that nobody used weapons or killed anybody; right?
1 A. Our task was to prevent people from using weapons in any activity
2 that they may have undertaken. That was if we observed somebody carrying
4 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31374, page 10.
5 Q. This is another portion of your testimony in the Stanisic and
6 Zupljanin case.
7 Starting at line 16, you were asked: "And this Kocka 1, 2 and 3,
8 what were these buildings exactly? What were you guarding exactly?"
9 And you answered: "Our task was not to allow the population to
10 go out of the buildings and we were to make sure that nobody used any
11 weapons and killed anyone."
12 So having reviewed that portion of your previous testimony, it's
13 true that part of your task was not to allow the population to go out of
14 the buildings; right?
15 A. Well, that would be more or less the same thing that I have just
16 said. Only those people who didn't carry any weapons could actually
17 leave. If you had weapons, you couldn't go out.
18 Q. Now, that's not what you previously testified; right? What you
19 previously testified was that your task was to prevent the population
20 from going out of the buildings.
21 A. To prevent, yes. But all that is one and the same thing.
22 Weapons could be used by those who had them on them and if we spotted
23 somebody with weapons, we informed the enforcement bodies who would come
24 and confiscate those weapons from those people. So that's that. It all
25 boils to one and the same thing.
1 Q. I have a couple of follow-up questions. First, who were the
2 enforcement bodies that you would inform if someone had weapons?
3 A. The police. The brigade command.
4 Q. When you say the brigade command, do you mean the
5 1st Light Infantry Brigade, the 22nd Brigade or both?
6 A. The 1st Light Infantry Brigade. We're not that close to the
8 Q. And sir, just to finish for today, I'd put to you that in fact,
9 at this time the population was prevented from leaving buildings in
10 Kotor Varos and that your testimony in Stanisic Zupljanin was truthful.
11 That was, in fact, part of your job, to keep people in buildings in Kotor
12 Varos. That's true, isn't it?
13 A. This is the truth, but let me tell you why. It was for the
14 safety of the people because you couldn't tell where fire was coming
15 from, from which side because there were extremists on all the four sides
16 of the world, the north, the south, the east and the west so people were
17 absolutely the safest if they were in their homes. Or at least that's
18 how things were presented to us who were in charge of the detail.
19 Q. Just to follow up. Who presented things to you that way?
20 A. Please explain. Clarify.
21 Q. You said "that's how things were presented -- that's how things
22 were presented to us who were in charge of the detail." So who presented
23 things to you that way?
24 A. Our superiors, the company commanders for the most part.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, I didn't stop you a minute ago when you
1 said I'll finish by this question but now we are the third question so we
2 really have -- if it's one question I'll allow you to do it but otherwise
3 we'll just continue tomorrow.
4 MR. TRALDI: I could close the topic with one more question,
5 Mr. President, if that was --
6 JUDGE ORIE: If it is really one, then I would allow you to do
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Sir, at this time, you wore an olive grey military uniform and
10 carried an automatic rifle; right?
11 A. Yes, I was wearing an olive drab uniform. I had originally this
12 old M-48 rifle and then after a while, I was given an automatic rifle.
13 MR. TRALDI: I thank you for your indulgence, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Bubic, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you back
16 tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom. But before you leave
17 the courtroom I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak with
18 anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever it may be about your
19 testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or whether that's
20 testimony still to be given tomorrow.
21 You may now follow the usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Understood.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you've used 30 minutes. Your indication
2 that would you use one hour and a half.
3 MR. TRALDI: And I expect to be at least a little bit under that,
4 Mr. President. I'll finish in the first session tomorrow.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn for the day and will resume
6 tomorrow, Wednesday, the 1st of October, in this same courtroom III at
7 9.30 in the morning.
8 We stand adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of
11 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.