Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26376

 1                           Tuesday, 30 September 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  The situation as far as

11     Judge Fluegge is concerned remains unchanged, that is, that for urgent

12     personal reasons, he's unable to hear the case.  We expect him back

13     tomorrow.  Judge Moloto and myself, we still consider it in the interest

14     of justice to continue to hear the case and we are aware that from a

15     distance Judge Fluegge is following the proceedings closely.

16             Second, yesterday, I said we would start at 9.00.  The reason for

17     starting at 9.00 was that the support teams are needed in the afternoon

18     for the Hadzic case so it was only exceptionally that we moved to a

19     little bit earlier morning session.  Since the Hadzic case will not be

20     heard today and if I understand well, also not the coming days, this

21     means that we can start at our usual time, 9.30.

22             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

23             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could the witness be escorted into the

25     courtroom.  Your next witness is Mr. Andric, I take it, Mr. Ivetic

Page 26377

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct, Your Honours, Novica Andric.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Andric.  Before you give evidence,

 4     the rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The next is now

 5     handed out to you.  May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

 7     the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS: NOVICA ANDRIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning and greetings to

11     everyone in the courtroom.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Andric.

13             Mr. Andric, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic, you find

14     Mr. Ivetic to your left standing.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence

15     team of Mr. Mladic.

16             Mr. Ivetic, please proceed.

17             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

18                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

19        Q.   Good day, sir.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   Can you please state your full name for the record?

22        A.   My name is Novica Andric of Rogatica.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to first take a look at 1D04367 in

24     e-court.

25        Q.   Sir, I would ask that you take a look at the document appearing

Page 26378

 1     on the left-hand side of the scene and I would ask you if you remember

 2     giving this statement to the Karadzic Defence team.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  If we could please move to the last page in both

 5     versions.

 6        Q.   Again looking on the left-hand side, there is a signature and a

 7     date in 2013.  Can you tell us whose signature that is?

 8        A.   That is my signature.

 9        Q.   After signing this statement for the Karadzic trial, did you have

10     occasion to read through the same in the Serbian language to verify if

11     everything was correctly written?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   And did you, in fact, make some correction when you met with the

14     Defence team members of the Mladic trial?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. IVETIC:  If I can now have 1D01698 in e-court.

17        Q.   And again focussing on the document that's now on the screen, do

18     you recall giving this statement to the members of the Mladic Defence

19     team?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Could you please tell us whose signature is visible on the first

22     page?

23        A.   It is my signature on the front page.

24             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to the last page of both versions.

25        Q.   Again, focussing on the document on the left of the screen there

Page 26379

 1     is a signature and a date in 2014.  Could you tell us whose signature

 2     appears there?

 3        A.   This is again my signature.

 4        Q.   Now, focusing on this statement given to members of the Mladic

 5     Defence team, did you read the same after signing it to ascertain if

 6     everything is correctly recorded therein?

 7        A.   Yes, I have read it and I agree with it.

 8        Q.   If I were to ask you questions today about the same topics as

 9     contained in the Mladic statement, would your answers, in essence, be the

10     same as contained in the statement?

11        A.   Yes, the answers would basically be the same.

12        Q.   And sir, since you have taken a solemn declaration this morning,

13     would those answers be truthful in nature?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Now if we could turn to page 3 in both versions of

16     this document.

17        Q.   I'd like to look at paragraph number 7 with you.  Sir, in this

18     paragraph, you talk about needing to make a correction to what you said

19     in the Karadzic case about not knowing the precise date when the Rogatica

20     Brigade was placed under command and control of the VRS.

21             MR. IVETIC:  With this paragraph in mind, I'd now like to return

22     to 1D04367 and if we could look at page 4 in English, page 5 in Serbian,

23     and paragraph 15 of the same.

24        Q.   Sir, looking at paragraph 15 on the screen before us, does the

25     correction that we just looked at relate to this paragraph of your

Page 26380

 1     Karadzic statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Sir, apart from this one correction to your Karadzic statement,

 4     do you stand behind everything else as being accurate and correct?

 5        A.   Everything I said is accurate and truthful.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And if I were to ask you again today about the same topics

 7     would your answers, in essence, be the same as recorded in your Karadzic

 8     statement?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, at this time, I would move for both

11     1D04367 and 1D01698 to be introduced into evidence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.  The number for 1D04367 would

13     be ...

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D665, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D665 is admitted.  The number for 1D01698 would

16     be ...

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Number D666, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D666 is admitted.

19             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I propose to deal with the

20     associated exhibits at the end of the testimony but I do announce that we

21     will not be tendering any of the statements referenced in the

22     Prosecution's response to the 92 ter motion.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's understood.

24             MR. IVETIC:  And at this time I have a short summary to read for

25     the record of the statements.

Page 26381

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggest.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 3             The witness is from Kosovo village in Rogatica municipality.  His

 4     testimony is that with the formation of national parties in the early

 5     1990s, the situation rapidly deteriorated.  The SDA was first formed in

 6     1990 with Ramiz Alabegovic spearheading the organisation.  Already in

 7     late 1990 and early 1991, the first Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries were

 8     set up in Pokrivenik village and, again, Ramiz Alabegovic called the

 9     shots.

10             After the referendum on secession of BH from Yugoslavia,

11     nationalism grew very much and you could see that Serbs, Croats and

12     Muslims could not live together.  Bosnian Muslims were openly saying that

13     Bosnia belonged to them and they were going to rule it.

14             Serbs started organising village guards, using hunting rifles and

15     legally possessed pistols.  This was done especially from the second half

16     of 1991, because volleys of automatic gunfire could be heard from Muslim

17     villages.

18             The witness joined the Territorial Defence on 20 April 1992

19     because his village was surrounded by multiple Muslim villages, and the

20     Muslims were armed with all kinds of infantry weapons.

21             The Rogatica Territorial Defence was armed with weapons from the

22     Territorial Defence stocks, and was not armed by the JNA.

23             From the first half of May 1992, there were constant provocations

24     from Muslim villages that fired upon Serb houses with infantry weapons,

25     anti-aircraft machine-guns, and mortars.

Page 26382

 1             Ramiz Alabegovic refused to heed calls to turn over weapons.

 2     Following the murders of Serbs in Ristivici village and the burning of

 3     the Serbian village of Dobromerovci, the Serbs responded to the Muslim

 4     attacks and broke their resistance.

 5             The witness denies that any mistreatment of Sefik Hurko or his

 6     father occurred whilst the same were in the garage of the witness's

 7     father.

 8             As to Rasadnik, the witness stresses that one part of the

 9     facility was a reception centre while a separate part was a detention

10     facility.  That completes the public summary.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  If you have any further questions for

12     the witness, Mr. Ivetic, you may proceed.

13             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Sir, I'd like to return to the statement given in the Karadzic

15     case which has now received the number D665 and I'd like to look at the

16     first page and paragraph 3 in both versions:

17             In this paragraph, you talk of the formation of the SDA in 1990

18     in Rogatica and how Ramiz Alabegovic spearheaded the same.  Could you

19     please tell us what was this individual's position in the municipality at

20     that time?

21        A.   Ramiz Alabegovic was the police station commander in Rogatica.

22        Q.   And for the events surrounding the formation of the SDA in

23     Pokrivenik village, were you present for the same or how is it that you

24     know the information that is contained in this paragraph as to the SDA?

25        A.   The road leading towards the village of Pokrivenik passes right

Page 26383

 1     by my house.  On that day, a large column of motor vehicles and buses was

 2     observed heading in that direction.  A man called Milomir Cacic was

 3     observing the developments and he told me about it.  Then in the evening

 4     both in the media and in the next day's print press, it was said that the

 5     party had been formed.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to turn to page 3 in both languages and

 7     focus on paragraph number 9.

 8        Q.   Here, sir, you talk about the wounding and subsequent death of

 9     Jela Bjelakovic can you please tell us the ethnicity of this lady and

10     what actually happened to her?

11        A.   Jela Bjelakovic is a Serb.  When there were provocations from

12     Muslims, villages Kozici and Voljevici, she was wounded and shortly

13     thereafter she succumbed to the wounds and died.

14             MR. IVETIC:  Now if we could turn to page 4 in the English at the

15     bottom and page 5 in the Serbian I'd like to ask you about paragraph 16.

16        Q.   In paragraph 16 of this statement, you talk about a reception --

17     or a holding centre in the English, a holding centre at the secondary

18     school for all families that left Rogatica town centre after the Muslims

19     took control.

20             Can you please identify for us by name that secondary school?

21        A.   That was the secondary education centre was called

22     Veljko Vlahovic.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Now I'd like to turn to Rasadnik.  Sir, did you ever witness the

25     killing of any persons that were being accommodated in Rasadnik, either

Page 26384

 1     in the part for detainees or in the separate part for civilians.

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   How often did your duties bring you to Rasadnik?

 4        A.   I went there rarely, mainly in order to detain the soldiers who

 5     violated military discipline by leaving their unit without permission or

 6     any other infringement of the rule.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, you were a driver within the military police.  What

 8     were the instructions and orders which were received from superior

 9     officers in the military police of how to deal with enemy prisoners of

10     war?

11        A.   For the most part, just like every soldier was obliged to adhere

12     to the Geneva Conventions to provide medical assistance to the wounded,

13     to bring them to a doctor and to have them registered by the

14     International Committee of the Red Cross.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, sir, for your answers to my questions on

16     behalf of my client and the rest of my team.  Thank you.  That completes

17     the direct examination.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.  Before we continue, I have

19     one question for you.

20             You talked about the Veljko Vlahovic school and you said it was a

21     collection centre.  What do you understand a collection centre exactly to

22     be?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  In my view, a collection centre is

24     a place where people felt free and protected from any provocations and

25     where simply their life was safe at the time.

Page 26385

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So this courtroom would be a collection centre, I

 2     would say, because people feel free, I take it, at least most of us are

 3     free.  We are protected from any provocations, and our life is safe here.

 4     So this is a collection centre, do I understand you well?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  This was a reception or

 6     collection centre in wartime which is a place where people sought kind of

 7     safety, a house where they can put up their families in order to protect

 8     them from wartime operations.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's your testimony that people went freely, from

10     their own free will, to the Vlahovic school.  Is that your testimony?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  People would be safe there, protected against any

13     evil?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know that it was the situation in that

16     school?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear from anybody that

18     there were any provocations there or at least nobody was talking about

19     that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So in the absence of any reports about a different

21     situation, you'd call it a collection centre and you just would assume

22     that people would go there freely.  That's just your assumption or do you

23     have any knowledge about it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my assumption.  I wasn't

25     there.  I wasn't in that secondary school.  I went by the school once.  I

Page 26386

 1     saw a couple of people there who were behind the school in the courtyard

 2     playing football.  They were not exposed to any combat there.  I could

 3     see them move freely around the courtyard or the playground of the

 4     school.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, are you ready to cross-examine the

 6     witness?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

10        Q.   Sir, I'd actually like to start off by asking you about some of

11     the events surrounding Zepa in July and August of 1995.  Specifically I

12     want to ask you about your contact with a man named Avdo Palic in August

13     of 1995.

14             Before I do ask my questions, I should advise you that this

15     Trial Chamber heard testimony from a witness, David Harland, that when

16     Zepa came under sustained Serb attack after the fall of Srebrenica, ABiH

17     Zepa commander Avdo Palic contacted the UN wanting to negotiate with the

18     Bosnian Serbs for the evacuation of the civilians of Zepa.  On the 27th

19     of 1995, Avdo Palic voluntarily travelled in a UN vehicle under a flag of

20     truce to a VRS position.  During the negotiations when Palic wouldn't

21     agree to surrender his military forces, members of the VRS took him away.

22             This Trial Chamber has heard that the next day, when UN officials

23     asked to see Palic, General Tolimir informed that Palic was dead.

24     They've heard testimony that General Mladic told UNPROFOR that Palic was

25     dead.  I want to ask you about your contact with Avdo Palic after he was

Page 26387

 1     seized on the 27th of July, 1995.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, this may be an appropriate time to

 3     review Rule 90(E) with the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, as you know the Chamber, not knowing

 5     what the questions will be, follows the suggestions by the parties and

 6     therefore I'll bring Rule 90(E) to the attention of the witness.

 7             Witness, Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence reads

 8     as follows.  A witness, therefore that's you at this moment, a witness

 9     may object to making any statement which might tend to incriminate the

10     witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to answer the

11     question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence

12     in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any offence other

13     than false testimony.

14             So if a truthful answer would tend to incriminate yourself, you

15     may address me and you may object to answer that question.  The Chamber

16     will then consider that.  Whatever the outcome of that is, if you're

17     telling not the truth, you are exposing yourself to prosecution for false

18     testimony and that is punishable by a term of imprisonment of seven years

19     and/or a fine, a considerable fine.

20             Therefore, if you have any concerns whether you would incriminate

21     yourself by giving a truthful answer, don't hesitate to object.

22             Please proceed.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24        Q.   Sir, you do know who Avdo Palic was, don't you?  You need to

25     actually speak an answer, sir, rather than just nod for the transcript.

Page 26388

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Sir, after Palic was captured on the 27th of July, you know that

 3     he was held in an apartment in Rogatica, don't you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you know that this is an apartment that was used by a

 6     Rogatica Brigade officer by the name of Zoran Carkic.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   During the time that Avdo Palic was being held in this apartment,

 9     you in fact brought guards to this apartment in Rogatica, didn't you?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 25962 brought to our

12     screens, please.

13        Q.   Sir, this is a 10th of August, 1995, Main Staff document signed

14     by Colonel Beara.

15             In the first paragraph, it refers to "Atlantida" and the first

16     paragraph reflects that his present inadequate accommodation is

17     attracting the interest of the public.

18             The paragraph goes on to say that he must be transported in

19     secret to the Mlin military prison in Bijeljina.

20             Going on to the second paragraph, which is all I think on page 1

21     in the B/C/S but we may need to move to the second in English, it says

22     that Captain Carkic would arrange with Major Kusic and personally carry

23     out the task by announcing his arrival to Colonel Todorovic in the 1BK.

24             Sir, isn't it true that with Captain Carkic and Major Kusic, you

25     drove Avdo Palic to Bijeljina?

Page 26389

 1        A.   It is true that I drove Avdo Palic to Bijeljina with Zoran

 2     Carkic, not Major Kusic.

 3        Q.   And sir, we see by looking at the order that driving Mr. Palic to

 4     Bijeljina was at the order of the VRS Main Staff; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You drove Avdo Palic to Bijeljina on or about the 10th of August,

 7     1995; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The prison where you took Palic, is that located in Bijeljina

10     town?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it accurate that the distance between the apartment in

13     Rogatica town and the prison in Bijeljina was about 200 kilometres?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can you tell us what was discussed in the car on the way, what

16     the atmosphere was like?

17        A.   In the car, we had a normal conversation.  We asked him about his

18     family because during his stay over there, conditions were put in place

19     for him that were similar to a house atmosphere because he, indeed, was

20     in an apartment.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 25962.

22             MR. IVETIC:  If I could just see the first page of the English, I

23     think there's a translation error.

24             The document in English actually recorded June instead of August.

25     No objection.

Page 26390

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  It seems that the original says 10th, 11th of June

 2     which of course is puzzling whether in August you can order the transport

 3     of someone to take place on the 10th or the 11th of June.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  It's the Prosecution's position that the B/C/S

 5     version, the number 6 is actually an error, that the evidence and on the

 6     top of the document support this being a typographical error in the B/C/S

 7     original, Your Honours.  The testimony of the witness is consistent with

 8     that.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  In any event, I don't have an objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25962 receives number P6800,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P6800 is admitted.

14             Ms. Bibles, there seems to be an implicit suggestion in your

15     questioning that Atlantida is the same person, you have not asked the

16     witness about it, I don't know if he's aware of the code-name used.

17             MS. BIBLES:

18        Q.   Sir, I apparently did not ask you this, but the code-name

19     Atlantida which is used in this Main Staff order, you would agree that

20     this refers to Avdo Palic?

21        A.   I don't know.  I'm not familiar with this code-name.  I'm

22     familiar with the name Avdo Palic.

23        Q.   The individual that you transported on the -- approximately the

24     10th of August, 1995, with Captain Carkic was Avdo Palic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26391

 1        Q.   Did you transport anybody else with Captain Carkic in this time

 2     period from Rogatica to the prison in Bijeljina?

 3        A.   No.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MS. BIBLES:

 6        Q.   Sir, Avdo Palic's body was later exhumed from a mass grave about

 7     10 kilometres from Rogatica town.  When did you last see Avdo Palic

 8     alive?

 9        A.   I saw Avdo Palic alive the last time in Bijeljina when I drove

10     him to Bijeljina.  I'm familiar with the journey from Rogatica to

11     Bijeljina.  I don't know anything about what happened after that.

12        Q.   But you're aware that his body was recovered from a grave about

13     10 kilometres from Rogatica?

14        A.   You told me that last time when I testified in the Karadzic case.

15        Q.   Perhaps it was a different prosecutor who showed you that

16     information.

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Sir, I'd like to continue and go to paragraph 18 of your

19     statement from the Karadzic case.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, I'd like to have this clarified.  You

21     did not examine the witness in the Karadzic case, I take it.

22             MS. BIBLES:  I did not, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you said it was this same Prosecutor who

24     shared that information with you in the Karadzic case.  The record will

25     show most likely, because Ms. Bibles tells us, that she did not examine

Page 26392

 1     you.  So how could she possibly have shared that with you in the Karadzic

 2     case?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not then, but when I testified

 4     here, somebody asked me.  I don't know who it was.  But in any case,

 5     that's when they told me.  Somebody put that question to me at that time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You were asked, "Perhaps it was a different

 7     prosecutor who showed you that information."  You said no.  But you meant

 8     to say that it was still a Prosecutor of this Tribunal.  Is that how we

 9     have to understand your answer?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MS. BIBLES:  I see defence counsel have a conversation.  I don't

13     know if I should wait or not.

14             MR. IVETIC:  There's a question about the answer at page 17, line

15     2 where we heard the B/C/S where he said "nije ona" which has not been

16     inserted, which means "not her" in B/C/S.

17             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Sir, I would like to switch directions a little bit and talk

19     about paragraph 18 of D665 which is the statement that you provided for

20     the Karadzic case.  In paragraph 18 you finish the paragraph talking

21     about seeing on the -- I believe it's the 27th of July, Ahmet Brgulja.

22     You describe that you spoke with this individual.  You talked about

23     cigarettes and then you say that he was transferred to Kladanj.  Do you

24     recall that section of your testimony and I believe it's in front of you.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26393

 1        Q.   Are you aware that he was actually detained at Rasadnik?

 2        A.   He went in the direction of Kladanj with a convoy.  When he was

 3     returned or when -- where he was placed, I was in Boksanica when the

 4     convoy left in the direction of Kladanj.  That's when I met that man.  I

 5     asked him if there were any problems.  He said he didn't have any

 6     problems but that he didn't have any cigarettes.  I gave him a pack of

 7     cigarettes.  And the men left in the direction of Kladanj.

 8        Q.   And you would agree he was a Muslim?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. BIBLES:  Could P3496 please be brought to our screen.

11        Q.   Sir, what you'll see come up on the screen is a list of Muslim

12     prisoners of war compiled by Zoran Carkic, who is the same individual you

13     drove with in August.  This list is further authorised by Tolimir and it

14     reads:

15             "Starting on 28 July 1995, the following citizens of Muslim

16     ethnicity who are accommodated at the military reception centre in

17     Rogatica ..." and I first want to ask you this is referring to Rasadnik,

18     isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Under items 1, 2 and 3, you see the names of Muslim leaders from

21     Zepa, don't you?

22        A.   I can see the names of some people but I don't know whether they

23     were in leading positions in Zepa.  I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

24             In any case, I can see that these are Muslim names.

25        Q.   Let's look at the first name, Mehmed Hajric describes that he is

Page 26394

 1     the former president of the Zepa War Presidency and Muslim cleric.  You

 2     would agree that he would make him a community leader or leader in Zepa?

 3        A.   Judging by what I am reading here, I would say that that is the

 4     case.  But I really don't know anything about that.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  If we could turn the English -- or turn to the next

 6     page in the English.

 7        Q.   And for you, sir, I'd ask you to look down in the B/C/S version

 8     to number 17.  Is this the individual that you saw and you believed went

 9     to Kladanj?

10        A.   Yes, that is the person's name, the first name and the family

11     name.  I don't know whether that is the person or not, judging by the

12     name, I would say that it was.

13             MS. BIBLES:  And now if we could turn to the next page in B/C/S

14     and stay on this page in English.

15        Q.   I want to you look down at number 45.  This is an individual that

16     we've already discussed, Atlantida who is reflected as being in a

17     different safe location.  And again, sir, we believe that this is

18     Avdo Palic, based on your previous testimony; correct?

19        A.   I don't know.  I'm not familiar with this name, Atlantida, I

20     don't know whether that is a reference to that person or not.

21        Q.   You know that Mr. Palic was being held in an apartment in

22     Rogatica rather than at Rasadnik; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. BIBLES:  Now if we could go to the next page in both

25     versions.

Page 26395

 1        Q.   Sir, at the top, you see a designation that talks about the

 2     health status of prisoners of war.  Looking down just past halfway

 3     through the page, we see that with respect to the individual, Atlantida,

 4     he's described as "bursting" with health.

 5             Given the way that this is written, do you know what this means?

 6        A.   I don't know.  All I see is the English version.  There is no

 7     translation.

 8        Q.   Sir, you don't have a B/C/S version in front of you?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it be checked whether the witness has the

10     B/C/S version before him.

11             MS. BIBLES:

12        Q.   Sir, on the B/C/S page in front of you which does have some

13     colouration, do you see about two thirds of the way down there's a

14     section that's called "C.  Treatment of prisoners of war."  The line that

15     I'm asking you to look at is just above that one.

16             What does "puca" mean to you?

17        A.   "Puca" is part of a phrase that means fit as a fiddle.  Puca is a

18     verb that can also be used to describe shooting from a weapon but in this

19     case, this describes his good health.

20        Q.   Sir, the first three persons that we saw on this list, are you

21     aware that they were never seen again alive?

22        A.   No.  I don't understand.

23        Q.   Have you heard whether the first three individuals, the names

24     that we looked at first on this list were located in a mass grave with

25     the body of Avdo Palic?

Page 26396

 1        A.   The Trial Chamber told me that during the previous trial.

 2     However, I did not know those people personally.  I didn't know about

 3     that.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  I'm next going to shift to a different topic.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I instruct you, Witness, not to again and

 6     again look at the Defence side for whatever purposes.  Ms. Bibles is

 7     examining you.  Just focus on what she asks you and refrain from any eye

 8     contact with others in this courtroom.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Sir, next to your family home is a garage in which Sefik Hurko,

11     Fejzo Hurko, Izeta Hurko and Abdulah Hurko were held on or about the

12     14th of August, 1992.  Is that true?

13        A.   It is true that Sefik, Fejzo, and Fejzo's wife were held there,

14     but Abdulah wasn't.

15        Q.   Is it true that among the soldiers that you saw in your father's

16     garage with the Hurkos was Ratko Kusic and Stojan Perkovic?

17        A.   Not Ratko Kusic but Rajko Kusic and Stojan Perkovic is correct,

18     yes.

19        Q.   After the Hurkos were in your father's garage they were taken to

20     Rasadnik where they were held in military detention; isn't that correct?

21        A.   They were taken to the secondary school when they were taken

22     away.  When that collection centre was dismantled at the beginning of the

23     school year when the purpose of the school was reinstated, those who had

24     been in the collection centre were transferred to a new collection centre

25     in Rasadnik.

Page 26397

 1        Q.   Sir, I'd ask if we could have --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask you.  The question was whether they

 3     were held in military detention.  You started saying they were taken to

 4     the secondary school and then later on, you again referred to them being

 5     taken to another collection centre.

 6             I think we earlier established that you have no knowledge

 7     whatsoever to allow you to conclude that this was a collection centre

 8     rather than anything else.  That is valid for the school.

 9             Now, the new centre where they were taken, which one was it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the Rasadnik centre.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

13             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 31323 on our screens.

14        Q.   While this document is coming up, I'll ask if you're aware that

15     Stojan Perkovic pled guilty before a court in Bosnia to crimes committed

16     in Rogatica including those committed in your garage, in your father's

17     garage.

18        A.   No crimes were ever committed in my father's garage.  As to

19     Stojan Perkovic having stated that, and under what circumstances, I don't

20     know anything about that.

21        Q.   Sir, let's look at some of the circumstances.  This document on

22     the screen in front of you is the judgement against Stojan Perkovic.

23             MS. BIBLES:  If we could turn to page 2 in both versions and look

24     down at number 3.

25        Q.   We see that the judgement finds that he's guilty of acting

Page 26398

 1     together with Rajko Kusic and other members of the VRS in taking part in

 2     the illegal detention of civilians Fejzo Hurko, Sefik Hurko, Abdulah

 3     Hurko, and Izo Hurko in the garage owned by Mico Andric where he

 4     subsequently together with others committed various things and I won't go

 5     through those in detail but they are assaultive behaviours.  Turning to

 6     the next page now, in the English only --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You said together with others.  I see only one name

 8     mentioned there.  Together with someone else.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Together with someone else.  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Turning just -- let's see we're on the next page.

12        Q.   "Abdulah Hurko was taken out of the garage and disappeared

13     without a trace."

14             Sir, the Trial Chamber has heard evidence consistent with this

15     and I submit that your testimony today is not truthful as to what

16     happened in your father's garage.

17        A.   These three people were taken to my father's garage, Fejzo, Sefik

18     and Fejzo's wife.  As for the fourth person, whether he was killed on the

19     front line, I don't know.  So the fourth person wasn't there.

20             In addition, they were not locked up because the garage was being

21     held open all the time because it was summertime.  They were even served

22     coffee when a captain came there.  So this confession or this testimony

23     given to this effect, I don't know how it came about.

24             I claim here with full responsibility that they were not

25     maltreated.

Page 26399

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I see that I'm past the time for a

 2     break.  This might be a good time to take a break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  May I take it that you'll remain within your

 4     time limits as estimated by yourself.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break.

 7             Witness, I have to -- you say this is all false statements by

 8     others.  Apparently those who gave those statements accepted to be

 9     punished for the events where you would not lightheartedly admit these

10     events and your role in that if you will be punished for it, especially

11     if you have to spend a lengthy time in prison.  I do understand that the

12     penalty imposed was 12 years of imprisonment.

13             So therefore, I have to remind you again that if you would not

14     speak the truth, that you are exposing yourself to prosecution and this

15     may have severe consequences as well.

16             I see -- I see you again as you did before smiling.  It seems

17     that it has a certain level of amusement for you.

18             I leave it to that.  We'll take the break.  You may follow the

19     usher and we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.

20             Mr. Mladic, no speaking allowed.  No, just no.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to

23     11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

Page 26400

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, before the witness comes in I do have

 2     two matters to bring to your attention.  The first is in relation to

 3     document 31323 and perhaps Your Honours had not had time to review the

 4     same but Your Honours' characterisation of the document to the witness

 5     implied that the penalty of 12 years' imprisonment and the admissions of

 6     Mr. Perkovic related only to the event in the garage when, in fact, the

 7     judgement has multiple murders and multiple sexual assaults and rapes

 8     that are incorporated into the guilty finding.

 9             That's the first matter I wanted to raise about the

10     characterization as presented to the witness does not comport to the

11     document.

12             Number 2, as I confirmed with several of my staff including

13     counsel during the break, the witness has had the same visage, the same

14     smiling appearance the entirety of these proceedings this morning, and

15     indeed, that is the way he has been with us when talking throughout the

16     week and I wanted to have that placed on the record as well.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I have another matter:  D665 which was admitted this

20     morning should have been admitted under seal and is hereby put under

21     seal.  That's the statement -- I'll not further explain at this moment

22     but that is the appropriate way of dealing with it.  Indeed I saw that

23     the judgement was about a 12-year imprisonment, Mr. Ivetic.  Indeed, if I

24     missed that it was for other -- for other charges as well, then it's --

25     I'll correct that.

Page 26401

 1             Witness, when I said 12 years for those who had pleaded guilty

 2     for the events in the garage, that I do understand that the sentence

 3     imposed did not deal only with that fact but also with other facts.

 4     That's hereby corrected.

 5             Further, Mr. Ivetic informed me that you may have a kind of a

 6     natural smile which should not be misinterpreted.  We'll take that into

 7     consideration.  That doesn't change that you're addressing now and then

 8     and seeking eye contact with the Defence part of this courtroom and you

 9     are advised not to do that.

10             Ms. Bibles, if there's any -- if you have any further questions,

11     you still have an hour to go so therefore you may proceed.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             Your Honour, I would first tender 65 ter 31323 at this time.

14             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.  I think there's another prior

15     document to that had not been admitted, the list.

16             MS. BIBLES:  I believe that's now P6800.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Then the present one just tendered, Madam Registrar, would

19     receive ...

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31323 receives P6801.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P6801 is admitted.  Please proceed.

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Sir, switching topics a little bit and referring more to

24     paragraph 7 of this statement that you prepared for the Mladic Defence.

25     I'd like to talk a little bit about the Rogatica Brigade.

Page 26402

 1             First, you've told us that you were, I believe, a driver

 2     policeman in the military police of the Rogatica Brigade.  Was the

 3     commander of the Rogatica Brigade Rajko Kusic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 31390 on our screens.

 6        Q.   Sir, coming up on the screen, we'll see a document signed by

 7     General Sipcic on 14 June 1992.  It appears that's now on our screens.

 8             We see in number 2, he's directing various supplies be provided

 9     as requested by the Rogatica Brigade.  So here, sir, you would agree that

10     by the 14th of June, 1992, the command of the VRS through the SRK was

11     sending supplies to the Rogatica Brigade; correct?

12        A.   I am not aware of that because by October 1992, I had been in the

13     village.  This happened much earlier, therefore, I cannot confirm it

14     because it was only in October that I joined the brigade command.

15        Q.   Let's take a look at another document and see if that assists in

16     understanding this process for you.

17             MS. BIBLES:  If we could look at 65 ter 8922.

18        Q.   Sir, this is a document from Commander Kusic to the command of

19     the SRK, dated 15 July 1992.  Do you recognise Commander Kusic's

20     signature at the bottom?

21        A.   I can see that there's a signature underneath the name.  Whether

22     this is Rajko Kusic's signature or not, I don't know.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bibles, you called this document as dated

24     15th July, I see it's 15th June.

25             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, I was wrong.

Page 26403

 1        Q.   It is a 15 June 1992 document, sir.  I apologise for the mistake

 2     in the date.  Sir, if you could look at the third paragraph, we see a

 3     description of the brigade's officers, junior officers and soldiers, et

 4     cetera.  Is that consistent with your recollection of the

 5     Rogatica Brigade?

 6        A.   I am telling you again that I came to the brigade command only in

 7     October.  Whether this was the strength at the time, it may have been so

 8     but then again, it might not.  I cannot confirm that.

 9        Q.   Sir, at the very top of the document, I direct your attention to

10     the first paragraph where the commander describes that:  "Large numbers

11     of Muslims, mostly women and children, are arriving in the town every

12     day.  The people are being moved into the premises of the secondary

13     school centre."

14             Is this the school that you have been talking about?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you see at the top as well that this is described as a

17     regular report to the command of the SRK.

18        A.   I don't know when the Rogatica Brigade was placed under the

19     command and at what time it started sending armed reports.  I was a

20     regular soldier, therefore I was not familiar with the procedure of when

21     and for how long these reports were being sent.

22        Q.   Based on what you see on the screen here, would you agree that

23     by -- certainly by the 15th of June, 1992, that these sort of regular

24     reports were being issued?

25        A.   Yes, for this particular date, that is true.  But whether it

Page 26404

 1     happened on a daily basis, I cannot confirm that.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would tender 65 ter 8922 and 31390.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  We would object.  I don't think the witness has been

 4     able to add anything to the document or attest to any kind of

 5     authenticity issues for the document.  He stated that he doesn't know so

 6     that cannot be a basis for admitting these documents through this

 7     witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any objection against them being bar-tabled

 9     being connected to the testimony of the witness.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I believe, according to your

11     Chamber guidance, all the bar table motions for the Prosecution should

12     have been filed already.  It is improper for the Prosecution to present

13     positive evidence not -- not recognised by a witness during the Defence

14     case in chief.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

16             MS. BIBLES:  I would tender it from the bar table, Your Honour.

17     It was raised by the paragraph 7 in the witness's statement with respect

18     to his lack of knowledge about the Rogatica Brigade.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further response to that, Mr. Ivetic?

20             MR. IVETIC:  And again it's not able to be confirmed by the

21     witness, therefore in that sense it's a document that's being presented

22     apart from this witness's testimony.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what Ms. Bibles, I think, expressed by

24     saying that she now sought it be admitted from the bar table.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 26405

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The objection is denied.  It's common practice in

 2     this courtroom that documents directly related to the content of the

 3     witness may be tendered from the bar table even if the witness is unable

 4     to identify the document or --

 5             Madam Registrar, the numbers would be?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31390 receives number P6802 and document

 7     8922 receives number P6803, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P6802 and P6803 are admitted.

 9             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

10             MS. BIBLES:

11        Q.   Sir, you've testified that in October of 1992, you were recalled

12     to Rogatica to the brigade command.  I'd like to ask you first if you

13     recall at that time that you reported to the SRK?

14        A.   Do I recall what?

15        Q.   Do you recall that through the brigade command, Rogatica Brigade

16     then went up through the SRK as it went up through the structure of the

17     VRS.

18        A.   I was called to come to the command of the brigade to work as a

19     driver for the military police, and that was in October.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, we'll move on.

21             Sir, in paragraph 17 of your -- I'll refer to as the Karadzic

22     statement so that you know which one we're talking about -- you tell us

23     that you were in Rasadnik often enough to know about the meals eaten by

24     the detainees as well as work done by the detainees.  Do you also know

25     the warden was Vinko Bosic also known as Vili?

Page 26406

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  If we could now have 65 ter 31330 on our screens.

 3        Q.   Sir, as this comes up on the screen, you'll see that it's a

 4     1 February 1993 list of prisoners of war in the Vili camp in Rogatica.

 5             As you look at the top of the document, would you agree that this

 6     document is referring to what was more commonly known as Rasadnik?

 7        A.   This refers to the Rasadnik facility and not the Vili facility.

 8     The Vili facility did not exist.

 9        Q.   So by the reference of "Vili", is this referring to prisoners of

10     war as the document stays, that are being held at Rasadnik; is that

11     correct?  Have we cleared up that confusion?

12        A.   So there was Rasadnik, not Vili.  It did not exist at all.  There

13     was a military remand detention and the Rasadnik collection centre that

14     had been moved from the secondary school so these are two separate

15     facilities.

16        Q.   Well, sir, you see at the very top of the page, this is a

17     document the Drina Corps Command dated 1 February 1993.  On the top it

18     reads:  "Pursuant to your request, we are forwarding the list of

19     prisoners of war in the Vili camp, Rogatica."

20             So there's no confusion.  These prisoners of war we're referring

21     to are being held in the Rasadnik facility; correct?

22        A.   These are the men that were held at the reception centre although

23     I haven't read the whole list, I don't see that anyone was in the

24     military detention so there was a military detention on one side, and the

25     reception centre on the other.

Page 26407

 1        Q.   Well, sir, again you appear to be trying to interpret this list

 2     in a way that you understand you should be interpreting it.

 3             Instead I would rather ask you to just read what this document

 4     actually portrays.  You would agree the top of the list talks about a

 5     list of prisoners of war; correct?  That's what it reads on top; correct?

 6        A.   That's what's written at the top but women were never prisoners

 7     of war, at least not in our practice.

 8        Q.   Well, sir, let's go through the list then.  You seem to be

 9     anticipating what I was going to ask and that is, as you look down the

10     list, many of the names that you see, the first names are female Muslim

11     names; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   That would be Biba or Nura, those are women's names; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And at number 4, we see a woman whose first name -- would you

16     agree that number 4 refers to a woman?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you would agree that her date of birth being 1892 meant that

19     she was 101 years old in 1993; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I would tender 31330.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31330 receives number P6804,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 26408

 1             MS. BIBLES:  If we could now have 65 ter 31329 on our screens,

 2     please.

 3        Q.   Sir, this as it comes up is a different document.  It's a list --

 4     I'll wait until it comes up.  As this list comes up on your screen, you

 5     see that it is a list of "captured persons of Muslim ethnicity," and it

 6     is dated 10 April 1993.

 7             This list was sent by the Drina Corps Command Lieutenant-Colonel

 8     who received the last list that was before you.  He's now sending this

 9     larger list to the command of the East Bosnia Corps and to the

10     Ministry of Justice and Administration.

11             Now, sir, as you look under Rogatica, you see the same women on

12     this list that were on the previous list.  Do you see that?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. BIBLES:  And now if we could go down in both versions so we

15     can see number 32.  I believe we may have to turn to the next page in

16     English.

17        Q.   If you look at number 32, do you recognise this man?

18        A.   This is a male name but I don't know the person myself.  But I

19     can deduce that it's a man's name.

20        Q.   Sir, isn't it true that in the summer of 1993, you drove a bus

21     from Rasadnik to Zvornik with the Rasadnik warden and with Zoran Carkic

22     filled with prisoners from Rasadnik including this man, number 32, a

23     pregnant woman, and other individuals who were obviously civilians.

24        A.   It is not true that I drove a bus.  I escorted the bus in a

25     police car as far as Zvornik.  These civilians were supposed to be let go

Page 26409

 1     through to the territory controlled by the ethnic community that they

 2     belonged to.  All I did was escort the bus to Zvornik.

 3        Q.   Sir, you would agree that prior to the date that you escorted the

 4     bus on which they were transported, these were civilians who had been

 5     detained in Rasadnik; correct?

 6        A.   These were civilians who were at the reception centre and they

 7     were on the list in order to be exchanged along with the others because

 8     all of them were supposed to be exchanged.  So there was a military

 9     detention and a reception centre.  These were two different facilities,

10     one next to the other.

11        Q.   Well, sir, in your testimony, you've described that you didn't

12     spend a lot of time at Rasadnik.  You've been presented with a list of

13     prisoners of war who include clearly civilians, and yet you keep saying

14     that there was a separation at Rasadnik.  Isn't it true, sir, that you

15     don't know -- you don't have personal knowledge that the civilians were

16     handled differently and, in fact, the evidence that you've been presented

17     would support that these civilians were considered prisoners of war and

18     were actually being held in the Rasadnik centre as such.

19        A.   When I came to Rasadnik, I saw the civilians there in another

20     pavilion adjacent to the one.  They were freely moving in front of the

21     pavilion in the courtyard which means that they were not locked up as

22     opposed to the soldiers who were held in detention.

23        Q.   Sir, would you agree that these civilians were not free to go

24     and, in fact, to leave, they were placed on a bus and transported under

25     military police escort?

Page 26410

 1        A.   They requested to cross over to the territory.  They couldn't do

 2     it independently.  They wanted to go to the territory under the control

 3     of their own people.  It was impossible for them to cross the separation

 4     line independently without any prior agreement.

 5        Q.   Sir, the reason for that is what we've seen and the way they're

 6     characterised in these documents and that is captured persons of Muslim

 7     ethnicity and prisoners of war.  Isn't that accurate?  That's the way

 8     they came to Rasadnik; isn't that the truth?

 9        A.   I have to go back to what I said that Rasadnik was a new

10     collection centre.  There was a pavilion where they were housed and there

11     was a military detention where the soldiers were kept.  However when the

12     academic year started they had to be moved.  Therefore, they were free to

13     move around, but they couldn't cross over to a different territory

14     without any agreement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you have described several times now that

16     they were free to move on the yard of where they were kept.  Does that

17     mean that they were also free to leave those premises and go home or go

18     to their family?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of the people from the list,

20     specifically from the Burati village and because of the safety situation

21     in the village, they wanted to go to the territory controlled by the army

22     of their own people.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not my question.  My question, where you

24     emphasise several times that you saw them moving on the courtyard.  My

25     question was where were they free to leave that courtyard and go to

Page 26411

 1     wherever they wished to go?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they could go but they

 3     couldn't cross over to the territory that they desired to go to.  They

 4     wouldn't do that on their own.  It had to be organised and based on an

 5     agreement.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So they could have left the courtyard and could have

 7     gone home without any problem; is that your testimony?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not all of them probably

 9     didn't have houses that were intact.  Some of them were damaged.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that's not my question.  My question is

11     whether they wanted to go to their family, to whatever place,

12     irrespective of whether their own houses were destroyed, to go home, to

13     go to wherever they wished to go, is that your testimony?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were free to go but they felt

15     safer there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, then that, perception seems to be not very

17     consistent with the words used, that is, "captured" "prisoners of war"

18     are these concepts or these documents all false or what -- do you have an

19     explanation why those who prepared these documents describe them not as

20     civilians free to go wherever they want but as civilians captured and

21     prisoners of war?  Do you have any explanation for that use of language

22     by those who drafted these documents?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know why

24     these terms were used in the way they were.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You further told us that they were exchanged.

Page 26412

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say that they were

 2     exchanged.  I said they had gone to be exchanged and the agreement

 3     concerning the exchange was for them to go to Tuzla from Zvornik.

 4     However, the Muslim authorities undermined this agreement and did not

 5     allow them to cross over and some of these people were sent back to

 6     Rogatica a day or two later because they were banned from entering their

 7     territory.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But, but at least you said they were on the list to

 9     be exchanged.  Why was there an exchange if -- you could just have

10     released them?  Why would you need others to receive and return if these

11     people were free to go?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  That's how things

13     were in that case.  I don't know what happened.  It was beyond me to make

14     any decisions or see to what was going on.  My only task was to provide

15     escort all the way to Zvornik.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand and I didn't ask you about personal

17     responsibility for that, but where you emphasise so much that they were

18     free to go, at the same time you say, I do not understand why but they

19     were there and supposed to be exchanged.  Exchange being a concept which

20     is not very consistent with free choice to go wherever you want.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them there and they were

22     moving around freely in front of the pavilion where they were

23     accommodated.  That is where I saw things.  It was my estimate.  Nobody

24     kept them enclosed there.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You also told us that they were supposed to be

Page 26413

 1     exchanged and for that reason on the list, lists which describe them as

 2     being captured and being prisoners of war.  We've heard your explanation,

 3     Ms. Bibles will now put her next question to you.

 4             MS. BIBLES:

 5        Q.   Sir, I couldn't find it in the transcript.  Did you briefly

 6     testify that the two Hurkos, the father and son who were in your father's

 7     garage were later taken into military detention?

 8        A.   When I arrived in Rogatica, they were in the military prison.

 9        Q.   Sir, if you could look at the list in front of you and look at

10     the names under 31 and 33 on this list, aren't they the same individuals?

11        A.   Yes, by name.

12        Q.   And on the same list is the woman who was 101 years old; isn't

13     that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. BIBLES:  31329.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, the reference you were apparently

17     looking for is -- let me have a look.  I had it a second ago.  Indeed the

18     transcript reflects that the witness said that they were taken in

19     military detention.  It's somewhere on page 21.

20             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And I would tender this

21     document, 65 ter 31329.

22             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31329 receives number P6805,

25     Your Honours.

Page 26414

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  And finally, sir, I'd ask if we could have 31336 on

 3     our screens.  And I'd ask that we go to page 9 in the English and page 7

 4     in the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Sir, is this --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, it was 21, line 19.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm afraid it was your question whether they

 9     were held in military detention.  You asked whether that was correct.

10     And the witness said they were taken away.  So not directly confirming

11     that they were taken in military detention.

12             Please proceed.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Sir, on the screen in front of you is a portion of an exhumation

15     report on a mass grave.  And this one as we see on the page refers to

16     bodies exhumed from Rasadnik in Rogatica.  There were 14 bodies recovered

17     here or exhumed here.  The first one that we see here is Hanka Kustura

18     born in 1895.

19             MS. BIBLES:  And if we turn the page, looking for number 13.

20        Q.   We see a woman who was born in 1898.  Following her, is a body of

21     a man who was born in 1928.

22             Sir, isn't it true that a number of civilians died in captivity

23     at Rasadnik?

24        A.   I don't know about that.  They may have died, but I wouldn't

25     know.

Page 26415

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further

 2     questions at this time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.

 4             One second, please.

 5             Yes, Judge Moloto has a question for the witness.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, for Ms. Bibles.  Ms. Bibles, what do you want

 7     to do with 31336?

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I'll tender this document.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  There's been no foundation been laid for its

10     admission in this format.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  I'm just looking at the document.  If

12     you give me just a few seconds to ...

13             Ms. Bibles, your question was whether people died when in

14     Rasadnik.  We see that these are relatively old people.  Is there any

15     autopsy report available for those witnesses?  I mean there was a bit of

16     a suggestion that they may have died not of natural causes and that

17     people at that age, I think we have to be very careful to make any such

18     suggestion.

19             Now, I had insufficient time to look at it more clearly and I'm

20     not entirely familiar with the document.  Could you tell us a bit more

21     about the document which may be relevant for the decision of admission as

22     well.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is a court document from

24     Bosnia.  Actually what I was thinking in the interest of time is perhaps

25     we could MFI this document.  I would like to investigate the autopsies

Page 26416

 1     behind these.  I have to admit, I do not have that information at my

 2     fingertips and then we could raise this at a later time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Also because it's a mass grave and at the same

 4     time I see grave dimensions described here which are not the same which

 5     of course for a mass grave is somewhat surprising.

 6             I see two metres by 90 centimetres, two and a half metres by one

 7     metre and -- it's all relatively unclear to me at this very moment.  The

 8     document will be marked for identification.  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31336 receives number P6806,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honours, and I was wondering if counsel

13     could direct to us where it actually says mass grave.  I have yet to find

14     except for one number 22 that it is a collective grave.  All the others

15     appear to be individual grave sites, not mass graves as was presented.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That may be part, then, of the further

17     clarifications Ms. Bibles will provide us with.  And she certainly will

18     also pay attention to what you just observed, Mr. Ivetic.

19             Any further questions, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I do.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

23        Q.   Sir, I'd like to return to the questioning of yourself in

24     relation to Mr. Avdo Palic on behalf of Ms. Bibles earlier today.  Were

25     you ever interviewed by the Bosnian authorities in relation to the

Page 26417

 1     disappearance of Avdo Palic?

 2        A.   Yes, I was interviewed at the administration of the crime

 3     prevention police in Banja Luka.

 4        Q.   When, approximately, did that interview take place?

 5        A.   I really can't remember.  It may have been in 2005 or 2008.  I

 6     really can't remember when exactly -- it was after the events, around

 7     that time.

 8        Q.   Could you tell us what kind of interview was it?  Could you

 9     describe the interview?

10        A.   I was asked whether I knew what happened to Avdo Palic after

11     Bijeljina.  I didn't.  I was put on a polygraph and it was established by

12     way of using the lie detector that I really didn't know what happened to

13     him after Bijeljina.

14        Q.   Okay.  Have you been interviewed by the Bosnian authorities

15     relating to Avdo Palic since that one interview where a polygraph was

16     administered and it was established you didn't know what happened to him

17     after Bijeljina?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Now I'd like to return with you to the conversation in the

20     automobile while you and Mr. Carkic were driving with Mr. Palic towards

21     Bijeljina.  How would you describe the level of familiarity between

22     Mr. Palic on the one hand and Mr. Carkic on the other?

23        A.   They had known each other from before because Avdo Palic had

24     worked in the water cleaning facility so their conversation was rather

25     normal during the entire journey to Bijeljina.  Avdo Palic was sitting in

Page 26418

 1     the car just like we were.

 2        Q.   How would you describe the mood of those in the automobile?

 3        A.   Both Palic and Carkic spoke in a very normal way without any

 4     tensions as two people who knew each other.  As simple as that.

 5        Q.   Now, if we can go back in time towards the time period when

 6     Mr. Palic was at the apartment in Rogatica.  Could you perhaps first tell

 7     us something about the conditions of the apartment, the living

 8     conditions?

 9        A.   The living conditions were equal to living in one's own house.

10     Avdo Palic could use the bathroom.  Carkic at one point brought him a

11     change of clothes so he could change into them.  It was a proper home

12     atmosphere.

13        Q.   Now, during the Prosecution's examination, it was brought up that

14     you had transported some guards to that apartment.  Did you ever have an

15     occasion to view the interactions between Mr. Avdo Palic and those

16     guards?

17        A.   Avdo Palic and the guards, when I arrived there, played cards.

18     On one occasion when I arrived, they were playing cards.  Again, it was a

19     home atmosphere.  He was surrounded by a proper home atmosphere.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Just to make everything clear, he was detained

21     there, wasn't he?  He was imprisoned in that apartment.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was accommodated there together

23     with -- he could not leave on his own.  He was actually moved away so

24     nothing bad would happen to him because apparently Avdo Palic had been in

25     command of an action in Bokcin Potok where 75 people had been killed so

Page 26419

 1     he was sheltered from anybody who made -- may have done something bad to

 2     him in retaliation.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But he was on a list of prisoners of war, wasn't he?

 4     I mean if you are in detention, that may provide some safety from attacks

 5     from others but it doesn't change the fact that you are in detention.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was on a list of prisoners of

 7     war and we saw him on that list.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Ivetic.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

11             Witness, at page 43, line 8, Mr. Ivetic asked you:  "During the

12     Prosecution's examination it was brought up that you had transported some

13     guards to that apartment."

14             Your answer said "When I arrived there, he was playing cards."

15     It looks like you are at cross purposes with Mr. Ivetic.

16             Mr. Ivetic is asking about the guards that you transported there

17     not the guards that you found playing cards.  Can you make sure that you

18     are on the save wavelength with Mr. Ivetic.

19             You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:

21        Q.   Sir, could you answer the Judge's question?  Which guards are you

22     talking about?  Are you talking about the same guards, the different

23     guards, which guards were playing cards with Mr. Palic?

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are interested in the guards that drove there.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour I'm trying to find out the

Page 26420

 1     witness's answer to find out which guards he's talking about.

 2        Q.   Could you tell us which guards you were talking about that were

 3     playing cards with Mr. Palic?

 4        A.   Slobodan Obrenovic, Goran Ristanovic and Zdravko or Danko Frganja

 5     I can't remember the first name.  When I visited them, and when I brought

 6     them food, not immediately when I transported them there, when I visited

 7     them, when you asked me about the atmosphere that prevailed there, I

 8     answered that on one occasion, on one of my visits, I found the guards

 9     playing cards with Avdo Palic.

10        Q.   And just to be clear, sir, are these the same guards that you had

11     previously transported to the apartment?

12        A.   Yes, they were the same people.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just try to make matters clear.  You brought

14     guards there, I take it, but please correct me when I'm wrong, to ensure

15     that Mr. Palic would not leave the apartment.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I drove those people there because

17     they were to be accommodated there with Avdo Palic who would protect him,

18     who would protect him from anybody's knee-jerk reaction in retaliation

19     for some past events.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, that's a different concept of being imprisoned.

21     You say he wasn't imprisoned, he was there just to be protected against

22     outsiders.  Is that your testimony?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, both protected and kept

24     indoors.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So the guards were there to keep him indoors which

Page 26421

 1     would at the same time protect him against any outsiders coming in; is

 2     that well understood?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now I'd like to move to another topic, your father's garage and

 7     the allegations of Mr. Stojan Perkovic as to the treatment of the Hurko

 8     family in the garage.  How would you describe the interactions with the

 9     Hurkos in the garage?

10        A.   When the Hurko family members arrived in the garage, they were

11     not incarcerated there.  They were given coffee.  Those people -- we knew

12     them, they lived not far away from us.  They spent only about 15 minutes

13     there and then Captain Cerovic arrived.  They were not ill treated at

14     all.  I claim that with full responsibility.  As for Perkovic's

15     statement, I don't know under what conditions it was given but I claim

16     with full responsibility that those people were not ill treated at all

17     while they were in the garage.

18        Q.   Were either of the Hurkos asked where they had gotten the gun or

19     the ammunition for the gun, the bullets?

20        A.   Fejzo and Sefik Hurko were asked where the ammunition had come

21     from and he said that he got them from the Leleks.  They were their

22     neighbours and both pistols and ammunition were found on that premises.

23        Q.   Now I'd like to move to the bus full of persons that you escorted

24     to Zvornik.  Did anyone use force or threats against those being

25     transported in the bus?

Page 26422

 1        A.   No.  They got on the bus and in Zvornik they were accommodated in

 2     a centre.  I don't know its name.  And the following morning, they were

 3     either let go or exchanged or I don't know what.  In any case, nobody

 4     forced them to get on the bus.  Nobody ill treated them.

 5        Q.   What precisely were your orders in relation to escorting the bus?

 6        A.   My order was to escort the bus from Rogatica to Zvornik and to

 7     hand over people to somebody.  Captain Carkic did that.  They were

 8     accommodated and then early in the morning, the next day, they were -- I

 9     don't know, exchanged or released or something.  I don't know what

10     happened.

11        Q.   Now, you said earlier today that some of these people had been

12     banned from entering their territory.  Who banned them?

13        A.   Muslim authorities obstructed the agreement on letting them go to

14     the territory in the direction of Tuzla.  I don't know why.  It was their

15     authorities who did not allow them to enter their own territory.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you clarify the use of the

17     language "their territory."  I mean had they lived in that area before?

18             Witness, had they lived at the other side of the line or ...?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't live on the other side

20     of the line.  They requested to be allowed to go to the territory

21     controlled by the army of their own people.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say, therefore, if you refer to "their

23     territory," you do not mean the territory where they had lived before but

24     you mean the territory controlled by the Muslim authorities.  Is that

25     well understood?

Page 26423

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honour, my question intended "their territory"

 4     being the "their" of the people who banned them.  That was how my

 5     question was phrased, that someone had banned them from coming to "their

 6     territory".

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and I do understand that the witness considered

 8     their territory, and that's how I understood him previously as well, is

 9     Muslim-controlled territory rather than the territory in which they had

10     lived before which the witness now confirmed.  But apparently you had a

11     different -- well, not necessarily different, not necessarily

12     contradicting, but at least not based on the same thought.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. IVETIC:

15        Q.   I forget, sir, did you answer if you had any knowledge of why the

16     Muslim authorities banned these persons from entering the territory?

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Thank you, sir, for answering my questions today, again on behalf

19     of the rest of my team and my client.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that is all I had for redirect

21     examination.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, any further questions.

23             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  This, then, Mr. Andric concludes your testimony in

25     this Court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

Page 26424

 1     for having answered all the questions that were put to you, whether these

 2     were questions put to you by the parties or by the Bench.  I wish you a

 3     safe return home again and you may now follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, there are two procedural matters I'd like to

 6     briefly raise with the parties.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, there's an observation, Mr. Ivetic.

 9     Earlier today you corrected the transcript and the interpretation.  Why I

10     didn't intervene because I didn't think that there was much reason to do

11     it, although I would strictly adhere to such corrections to be made after

12     we have heard transcribers and/or interpreters or having verified on the

13     basis of the audio whether a mistake as you think it was made, was made

14     in fact.

15             Again, it sounded all very logical but I'd like to strictly

16     adhere to that procedure for the future.

17             And then I have another question, and this is addressing you,

18     Mr. Stojanovic.  Mr. Stojanovic, I was encouraged by Mr. Ivetic to read a

19     bit more in the judgement in the Perkovic case, I saw that a counsel was

20     appearing there by the name of Miodrag Stojanovic.  Was it you?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I then understand well that you were assisting

23     someone who pleaded guilty on matters which seem to be part of this case

24     as well and at the same time, the Defence presents evidence in this case

25     to suggest more or less that the guilty plea was a false one and when the

Page 26425

 1     witness said several times, well, I don't know under what circumstances

 2     he gave his statement and he pleaded guilty, that as a matter of fact, it

 3     was under your guidance that Mr. Perkovic, at least that's what I read in

 4     the judgement, made that statement which seems to be -- there may well be

 5     a conflict of interest between your present client and the client you

 6     defended at that time.  And I wondered what your view on that matter is.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the

 8     Stojan Perkovic case, I joined them during the proceedings when they

 9     already started discussing the plea deal with Radivoje Lazarevic.  My

10     task in that case was to assist in establishing the severity of the

11     sentence and the cooperation that Stojan Perkovic offered during the

12     proceeding.

13             Now, what is stated in the judgement and what Perkovic said in

14     his guilty plea on the facts is up to Perkovic.  I, as Stojanovic, cannot

15     say whether he told the full truth or not.  He accepted the deal but my

16     obligation was -- to warn him that he should say everything he knew.

17             Also, I acted as defence counsel of Mico Andric's father before

18     the Cantonal Court, the trial that lasted from 1992 to 2000 in which he

19     was acquitted of all guilt.  So I was fully aware of the fact that

20     today's witness, Novica Andric claims that this event never occurred.

21             I don't know whether this was really the case or not.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No, of course you do not know.  But you take a

23     procedural position, I take it that you would not have represented

24     Mr. Perkovic in the way you did, apart from what the judgement says about

25     what you did, but if you would believe that the guilty plea was false,

Page 26426

 1     was untruthful.  I take it that you would have stepped back from further

 2     arguing about the sentence if you considered it to be on a totally false

 3     basis.  Would you?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours,

 5     but I don't know whether it is truthful or false.  It's quite clear.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course not.  Counsel will never know because they

 7     were not present at the time.

 8             What I establish at this moment is that the Defence position in

 9     relation to the events in the garage are squarely contradicting the

10     defence position taken in the Perkovic defence and I -- perhaps I, at

11     this moment, invite you to further consider the aspect of conflict of

12     interests in defending Mr. Mladic and Mr. Perkovic and apparently you

13     have added an Andric case as well.

14             I would like you to think about it and so will the Chamber do.

15             We take a break.  We will resume in 20 minutes from now.  That's

16     25 minutes past 12.00 and is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And that would be Mr. Bubic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             MR. IVETIC:  One procedural matter, Your Honours, we still had

21     the associated exhibits for Mr. Andric.  Should we deal with that at the

22     beginning of next session.  It should be brief.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any -- have the parties agreed on whether

24     anything objects -- is against admission.

25             MS. BIBLES:  There's four photographs and three district court of

Page 26427

 1     Sarajevo judgements.  We do not object to any of those coming in.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then Mr. Ivetic, if you could provide

 3     Madam Registrar with a short list, she'll then read it, give the numbers

 4     and we'll decide on admission immediately after the break.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour, I will do that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes

 7     past 12.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 12.06 p.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I first deal with the associated exhibits for

11     Witness Andric.  I received the list from Madam Registrar.

12     65 ter 1D04368 is admitted as D667.

13             1D04369 is admitted as D668.  1D04370 is admitted as D669.

14     1D04371 is admitted as D670.  1D04372 is admitted as D671.  1D04373 is

15     admitted as D672.  1D04374 is admitted as D673.

16             There's another matter which I'd like to briefly address.  That

17     is the reference to a polygraph test which was referred to by the

18     witness.  I don't think I'm telling any of the parties a secret that the

19     use of polygraph tests for evidentiary purposes is a -- well, to say the

20     least, a well contested issue and in many systems of criminal procedure

21     not admissible.

22             Nevertheless, here now through the back door, the reliability of

23     the testimony given by this witness in this Court is supported by a

24     reference to an earlier statement he gave, a similar statement, which was

25     then -- was then subject to a polygraph test.

Page 26428

 1             Now, first of all, both the witness and Mr. Ivetic said that the

 2     polygraph test showed that he had no knowledge.  I take it, Mr. Ivetic,

 3     that you wanted to say that the poly -- the outcome of the polygraph test

 4     was such that the test didn't give a reason to be suspicious about

 5     whether the witness told the truth or not because polygraph tests are

 6     unable to tell us what happened.

 7             Apart from this technical observation, if the Defence considers

 8     the evidence of the witness referring to this polygraph test has any

 9     probative value then the Chamber would like to see -- and the statement

10     and the relevant information about the application of the polygraph test.

11             Another matter is whether we should admit such evidence even if

12     further information is provided and even if you would have seen the

13     statement, whether this polygraph information is admissible evidence at

14     all.  And the Chamber invites the parties to present their positions on

15     the matter, not necessarily immediately, but here you are on your feet,

16     Mr. Ivetic.

17             MR. IVETIC:  I can report that this very same evidence was led

18     and introduced in the Karadzic proceedings.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the issue of the use of polygraph information,

20     was that made the subject of any further discussion?

21             MR. IVETIC:  To my knowledge, it was not raised at all by any of

22     the parties.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the fact that it was admitted could mean two

24     things, that everyone would automatically accept this as relevant and

25     probative, or that the parties and the Bench - and of course I'm hesitant

Page 26429

 1     to say it - missed that point.

 2             The Chamber would like to hear further from the parties on the

 3     issues I raised a minute ago.

 4             Then if the Defence is ready to call its next witness, we'll ask

 5     the usher to escort Mr. Bubic into the courtroom.

 6             For the polygraph, a week, would that be good enough?  I'm

 7     looking at you, Mr. Ivetic, and I'm looking at you, Ms. Bibles.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Certainly, Your Honour, both with respect to how it

 9     was used in either the Karadzic case or not used in the Karadzic case and

10     with respect to this Court's consideration of the admissibility of such

11     evidence, I think a week would be sufficient.

12             MR. IVETIC:  For us a week would not be sufficient is we have to

13     track down from the BiH authorities the source documents for the same

14     since I do not have them or I would have relied on them in the

15     examination itself.

16                           [The witness entered court]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you seen that statement apart from the

18     polygraph test, you have not seen the statement.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So the only thing we have at this moment -- the only

21     thing that we have at this moment is the testimony of the witness about

22     such a statement taken, what the content of the statement was, whether

23     there was any polygraph test made, et cetera.  We just have his testimony

24     about that.

25             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

Page 26430

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then you'll have more time.  Please indicate,

 2     Mr. Ivetic, on how much time you'd need.  Because it may be difficult to

 3     forecast at this moment.

 4             Good afternoon, Mr. Bubic.

 5             Mr. Bubic, before you give evidence, the rules require that you

 6     make a solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.

 7     I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Greetings to

 9     everybody in the court.

10             I solemnly swear that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and

11     nothing but the truth.

12                           WITNESS: OBRAD BUBIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bubic, please be seated.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bubic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

17     You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left.  He's almost standing, it takes him a

18     minute to get up.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Bubic.  Did you hear me?

23     Good afternoon, Mr. Bubic.

24        A.   Good afternoon.

25        Q.   Would you please state your full name for the record slowly.

Page 26431

 1        A.   My name is Obrad Bubic.

 2        Q.   Did you give a statement to members of the Defence counsel team

 3     of General Mladic in the past?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Could we please have on our screens 1D1706, please.

 6     And I would kindly ask the assistance from the usher to deliver this same

 7     statement in hard copy to Mr. Bubic.

 8             Can you show it to the Prosecution, please.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just have to take another pair of

10     glasses.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Bubic, you can see both on the screen in front of you and the

13     hard copy of this document.  Can you see a signature on this document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you recognise it?

16        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the last page of the same document,

18     please.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] You can see on the screen and I see that you're

20     looking at the last page, do you see your signature?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you recognise it?

23        A.   Yes, absolutely.

24        Q.   Whose signature is that?

25        A.   Mine.

Page 26432

 1        Q.   When you were giving this statement to the representatives of the

 2     Defence team of General Mladic, did you say the truth and does your

 3     statement contain truthful statements?

 4        A.   Yes, absolutely.

 5        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you give

 6     the same answers?

 7        A.   I think so.

 8        Q.   I'm now going to read a summary statement of your statement.  And

 9     please, be patient.

10        A.   No problem.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I tender this statement into evidence, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1074 receives number D674,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             MR. LUKIC:  With your leave, I would just read the summary

17     statement.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20             Bubic Obrad asserts that the creation of ethnic political parties

21     instigated ethnic hostilities and arming the people.  His statements are

22     given for the Kotor Varos area.

23             He knows that after the withdrawal from the theatre of operations

24     in Croatia in 1991 and 1992, the 22nd Infantry Brigade was deployed in

25     Kotor Varos area with the task to prevent interethnic conflicts.  The

Page 26433

 1     commander of the 22nd Infantry Brigade was Bosko Peulic.

 2             Bubic underlines that the Muslim-Croatian units were intensively

 3     arming themselves and that he personally witnessed it during his

 4     captivity.

 5             The taking over of power and taking the situation under the Serb

 6     control took place in Kotor Varos on 11th June, 1992.  The army did not

 7     take part in these events nor arrested non-Serbs.

 8             He believes that the Muslims and Croats prepared themselves for

 9     the war in an organised and planned manner.  His claims are supported by

10     the material-technical means he saw in the area where he was captured.

11             He talks about the great number of members of police and the RS

12     army on the 29th of June, 1992, in course of the military campaign in

13     village Vecici.

14             And he will testify about the number of these police and army

15     members killed in this attack on Vecici in June of 1992.

16             In Rujevica area on the Teslic-Kotor Varos road, the vehicle

17     carrying Obrad Bubic, this witness, Stevan Markovic, Milan Stevilovic and

18     Novo Petrusic was ambushed and shot at from both sides of the road.

19     Bubic was the only survivor.  He was captured by the uniformed and armed

20     members of the B and H army.  He was beaten savagely by the people known

21     to him.

22             That was short summary of the statement of this witness and I

23     would just have several questions for this witness, Your Honour, with

24     your --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, before you do that, could you just tell us

Page 26434

 1     one more time the 65 ter number of this statement D674.  There are three

 2     numbers that have been flying around.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  The 65 ter number is 1D01706.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  01706.  Thank you so much.  Because it's recorded

 5     on here as 1074.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  This adds to the confusion.  I think Madam Registrar

 7     read or at least that's how it was recorded that the document was 1D1074

 8     but she now corrects it.  She corrects it by saying that the statement is

 9     number 1D1076, at least that is the document that was shown on our

10     screens.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, that's correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And this is then the final determination of what

13     document is admitted as D674.

14             MR. LUKIC:  In these matters I trust Madam Registrar more than

15     myself.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  So I do, Mr. Lukic.

17             Mr. Lukic, the Chamber is aware of the existence of a proofing

18     note which seems to give either further explanation or corrections.  I do

19     not know whether you want to deal with that proofing note or not.  It's

20     about paragraph 19.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I think it's addition, it's not correction.  It's

22     more explanation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Do you want it to be in evidence as well?

24     Because if so, then you would have to put it to the witness and tender

25     it.  It's so short, that we could even read it or you could read it to

Page 26435

 1     the witness.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, please open your statement and look

 6     at paragraph 19.

 7             Mr. Bubic, paragraph 19 of your statement.  You have it in hard

 8     copy on your desk.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] In e-court, this should be the

10     penultimate page in both versions.  We are interested in paragraph 19.

11        Q.   Yesterday, when you and I spoke, Mr. Bubic, you drew my attention

12     to the fact that we should explore the first sentence in paragraph 19 and

13     explain some things in it.

14             In the original, this sentence reads, "On one occasion, I

15     happened to be in Zaberdje village."  And then you told me that the

16     sentence should be introduced by some other words, I announced that to

17     the Prosecutor and the Trial Chamber yesterday.  I will read that

18     introduction and you just tell me whether my understanding of the way you

19     wanted to explain that sentence was correct.

20             This is what I wrote down, and I informed the Prosecutor and the

21     Trial Chamber of that. [In English] And I quote:  "The witness explained

22     during the proofing session today that he did not find himself there by

23     pure chance, but he was sent to Zaberdje by his command to be present

24     during the departures of Croats and Muslims from Kotor Varos.  His task

25     was to see if he would recognise somebody among them who had tortured him

Page 26436

 1     and if he did, he should report such people to the military police who

 2     would then take them to the command of the military police for

 3     interrogation."

 4             [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, is this a true reflection of your

 5     words?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the counsel be reminded

 8     they speak the same language and they should pause between questions and

 9     answers.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are invited to pause between question

11     and answer.

12             And you, Witness, as well.  Once a question has been put to you,

13     just make a little pause before you answer it.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, is there any need now for us to tender

16     this proofing note or --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I think you've read it in its entirety.

18             It is a true reflection of your words, Witness, and it's also in

19     accordance with the truth, I take it, since you've taken the solemn

20     declaration.

21             Could you confirm that, that it's in accordance with the truth?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.

23             MR. LUKIC:  And with your leave, Your Honour, I would have

24     several questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 26437

 1             MR. LUKIC:  If we can have paragraph 9 on our screens from the

 2     witness's statement.  It's page 3 in B/C/S version and we have it the

 3     English version as well.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, as you can see in this paragraph, you

 5     describe combat around Vecici on the 29th of June, 1992.  And you also

 6     talk about the Serbian fighters who were killed.  Were there any

 7     imprisoned Serbs, those who were taken prisoner by the Muslim forces

 8     during that combat?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What happened to them, to those who were captured?

11        A.   As far as I know, some were horrendously tortured.  Again, as far

12     as I know, they were torched with some burners and their screams were

13     heard hundreds of metres away from the site where that was happening.  I

14     don't know how the others fared, unfortunately, their bodies were

15     returned, they were not returned alive.

16        Q.   What was -- what kind of mood was created among the Serbian

17     population of Kotor Varos when they heard how the imprisoned Serbian

18     soldiers and police officers had fared?

19        A.   Due to the deaths of some people and their imprisonment, national

20     tensions came to a head and the people simply wanted to retaliate.  From

21     that moment on, it was no longer conceivable for the people to live

22     together.  By the way, I would like to add that it took some five or six

23     days if not longer, perhaps even seven, for the dead bodies to be taken

24     over and buried in keeping with the customs of the Orthodox faith.

25             I was among those who attended the funerals of three of those

Page 26438

 1     people.  They were my neighbours.  They lived very close to my weekend

 2     cottage, which was some 10 kilometres away from Kotor Varos.  That

 3     funeral was carried out under very hard conditions because on the Muslim

 4     side, sniper fire was opened on those who attended the funeral.  It was

 5     only when the military intervened and fired a few tank rounds that the

 6     situation calmed down and those people could be buried with dignity.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, just one observation about those who were

 8     taken prisoner.  Where they were taken, how many, who they were, all

 9     details which would allow for verification of the accuracy of what the

10     witness tells us are absent.  I just would like to say this because often

11     it assists the Chamber in receiving documents or post mortems or where

12     these people were found, if they survived; where they were found if they

13     did not survive.  All that information is relevant to test the accuracy

14     of the evidence and it's missing.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bubic, could you please tell us the names of

18     those three people whose funeral you attended?

19        A.   Radan Kupresak, Jeftimir, whose family name I can't remember at

20     this moment.  And the third man was Naric and I can't remember his first

21     name.

22        Q.   Did you know the father of any of those who were killed in that

23     operation?

24        A.   I knew of Radan Kupresak's father who was my neighbour up there

25     and throughout the entire post-war period, we spoke about that only once

Page 26439

 1     because he just can't talk about that.  According to him, he heard who

 2     had killed his son and other things like that.  I, however, don't know

 3     that.

 4             And as for the young man Naric whose name I can't remember at the

 5     moment, I know his sister.  Again, I can't remember her name either.  She

 6     still lives in Kotor Varos and she lives with very painful memories of

 7     all those events.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we really need a bit more in order to

 9     rely on all this.

10             Can you tell us, were you present when Radan Kupresak was

11     captured, when he was taken prisoner?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not present.  On that

13     day, I was in Kotor Varos.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how did you hear from him being taken prisoner?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His fellow combatants told us that

16     as well as their friends, but there is a very important thing in all

17     that.  Radan and the other two, or rather their bodies were pulled out

18     from the area on the 4th of July but I know that one lad had been

19     captured --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would not mind, I'll take it step by step.

21             Let's start with Kupresak.  How was his body returned?  Who

22     returned it on, as you said, the 4th of July?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An agreement had been reached with

24     the Muslim side for the hand-over of 19 bodies.  Among those 19 dead,

25     there were the three men whom I have mentioned.

Page 26440

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you know what exactly the cause of death of

 2     Kupresak was?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know for sure that he was not killed in

 5     combat but that he was killed in -- or he died, I should say, in

 6     detention?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be sure of that.  I wasn't

 8     there.  However, I heard that from his fellow combatants who claim that

 9     when he was captured, he was alive.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Did you ever speak to his father about his wounds?

13        A.   As I've already told you, his father is a man of very few words.

14     He says very little.  However, on one occasion, we happened to talk after

15     I was taken prisoner and his father told me, "You lucked out.  You're

16     still alive and my Radan is dead."  He never shared any details with me.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I will come back to Vecici.  Let me ask you something

18     else.  Do you know if the Serbs negotiated with the representatives of

19     the combatants from Vecici, did they ask them to hand over weapons?

20        A.   Yes, I know that.  On several occasions, there were talks to that

21     effect.  Two officers of the Serbian army went there to negotiate,

22     together with the imam of the Muslim religious community and the priest

23     who represented the Catholic community.  There were several such rounds

24     of negotiations but please don't take my word for granted if I tell you

25     that the massacre that happened and that we are talking about when so

Page 26441

 1     many people were killed was a plot by the other side to get hold of the

 2     weapons to kill them with.  I'm not sure about that.  I'm just telling

 3     you about this as a citizen.

 4        Q.   All right.  This is your impression.

 5        A.   Yes, this is my personal opinion.

 6        Q.   However, do you know which two officers attended these

 7     negotiations?

 8        A.   Bosko Peulic, a colonel, and Slobodan Zupljanin.  I think he was

 9     a major at the time along with the priests and clergy that I mentioned

10     and the people from the Islamic religious community.  I also know that

11     they were joined by a reputable entrepreneur from Kotor Varos who was

12     believed and is still believed to be a very honourable man.  His name is

13     Hamid Bajric.  He has a wood manufacturing company, and he went with them

14     to attend these negotiations.  As for the hodza, I don't know who he was

15     and I think that the name of the Catholic priest was Adolf but I'm not

16     sure.  As I said, the negotiations took place on several occasions.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us, you mentioned Hamid Bajric,

18     can you tell us his ethnicity?

19        A.   He's a Muslim, and he still lives in Kotor Varos.  He has his own

20     company that manufactures wooden products.

21        Q.   Thank you.  What was the attitude of the armed members of the

22     ABiH from Vecici with regard to the requests of the Serbian side for them

23     to surrender their weapons, do you know that?

24        A.   No, I don't, but I heard from some informal and unofficial

25     sources that they had said that they would never surrender their weapons.

Page 26442

 1        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Mr. Bubic.  I have no further questions for you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we'll start the cross-examination, Mr. Bubic,

 3     I have one question for you.  You are telling us about negotiations where

 4     Muslims are required to surrender their weapons.  Was there ever any

 5     discussion about the Serbs rendering their weapons to the Muslim side?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not that I know of that.  I don't

 7     think that happened because the negotiations were conducted both with the

 8     Croats and the Muslims.  There were several examples to the effect that

 9     in various villages and hamlets, both the Muslims and the Croats agreed

10     to surrender their weapons.

11             For example, the village of Zaberdje surrendered their weapon and

12     none of them came into harm's way.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm putting this question to you focussing on

14     whether it was ever requested from Serbs to hand over their weapons to

15     whomever.  I'm not insisting on Muslims or Croats.

16             What was the basis for the claim that non-Serbs had to render

17     their weapons to the Serbs and why not the other way around?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Lukic, and I'm addressing the whole

20     of the Defence team, at many, many, many occasions, it was without any

21     further explanation it was taken for granted that one party had to

22     surrender the weapons to the other party without ever exploring what the

23     basis for such claims was.

24             Now I'm not inviting you to deal with all of that with each of

25     the witnesses, but it seems to be left aside whether -- where it may have

Page 26443

 1     not a central position in this case but at least it needs some

 2     explanation now and then why A should surrender their weapons to B rather

 3     than B surrender their weapons to A.

 4             I leave it to that at this moment and I'm not exploring this

 5     further with this witness, certainly not.

 6             Mr. Traldi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you do that, Mr. Traldi, can I just clarify

 8     something with the witness.

 9             Mr. Bubic, in reading the summary of your testimony, Mr. Lukic

10     said the following at page 57, starting at line 19, "The taking over of

11     power and taking the situation under the Serb control took place in

12     Kotor Varos on the 11th June in 1992.  The army did not take part in

13     these events, nor arrest non-Serbs."  Do you confirm that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, that was the

15     situation.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Who took over control then, if it was not the

17     army?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  The Crisis Staff.  That was

19     probably established at a municipality assembly meeting.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Crisis Staff took over power?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I would have nevertheless one or two follow-up

24     questions.

25             You said the Crisis Staff that was probably established at a

Page 26444

 1     municipality assembly meeting, assembly of what, exactly.  What is a

 2     multi-ethnic assembly at which the Crisis Staff was established or was it

 3     a Serb municipal assembly?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb municipal assembly,

 5     because it was well known that on 11th of June, a session of the

 6     municipal assembly was held in Kotor Varos as a result of which the Serbs

 7     took over the entire power into their hands.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But the other ethnicities were not represented in

 9     that assembly.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether they were

11     represented.  I don't think they were.  But I cannot say anything with

12     any degree of certainty.  I know that in the municipal assembly, there

13     were still Muslims and Croats who continued to work.  Whether they were

14     directly involved in the organs of the municipality or not, I cannot say.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This, of course, is exactly the issue, whether there

16     was a Serb municipal assembly functioning parallel to the multi-ethnic

17     elected municipal assembly.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to answer that

19     question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I can't tell you.  My question is clear.  You are

21     talking about a municipal assembly which you said had established the

22     Crisis Staff and I'm exploring what municipal assembly you're talking

23     about.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, if I may assist.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 26445

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Paragraph 5, last two sentences would, I think, be of

 2     assistance.  If we could have it on our screens as well, paragraph 5 in

 3     both versions, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, I see that the Serb leadership, what the

 5     authority of the Serb leadership was in this respect and what kind of an

 6     assembly it then was, it still unclear to me.

 7             I am not surprised that -- well, let's leave it to that.

 8             The witness asked about it, has given the answers he has now

 9     given.

10             A Crisis Staff, Witness, was the army, that is, the VRS,

11     represented in the Crisis Staff?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.  Those were

13     purely civilian organs.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Crisis Staff was composed purely of civilians?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Crisis Staff, were other than the Serb

17     ethnicity represented in the Crisis Staff?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but I don't think so.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Mr. Lukic drew my attention to where your

20     statement reads, "The Serb leadership called a meeting of the municipal

21     assembly and decided to place the municipality under their control."

22             Do you know whether the Serb leadership, when calling a meeting

23     for the assembly, also invited non-Serb members to participate in that

24     meeting?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to some stories I heard,

Page 26446

 1     yes, but I cannot be absolutely sure about this because I heard that some

 2     of them refused to respond but these were just rumours.  I have no

 3     official information about this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know whether they were present during that

 5     meeting of the assembly, that is, non-Serbs?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a small number were present.

 7     Now, whether they took part in the decision-making process, I don't know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd say members, non-Serb members were present but

 9     they did not take part in the decision making.  Do you mean to say that

10     they did not support the decision?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's only my supposition that

12     they abstained from declaring their position but they remained working as

13     part of the administration of the municipality.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say you don't know but this is your

15     assumption.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Traldi, are you ready --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But Mr. Bubic, at page 68, lines 15, when you were

19     asked whether this was a multi-ethnic assembly or the Serb assembly, you

20     said the Serb assembly because it was well known that on the 11th of

21     June, a session of the municipal assembly was held in Kotor Varos as a

22     result of which the Serbs took over the entire power into their hands.

23             So you did tell us it was the Serb assembly.  Now you're saying

24     there were other people present.  Just bear that in mind.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, are you ready to start your

Page 26447

 1     cross-examination?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I am, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm also looking at the clock.  You have five

 4     minutes before the break unless you would prefer to start your

 5     cross-examination after the break.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in your hands.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's get started and see how far we come.

 8             Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  Mr. Traldi

 9     is counsel for the Prosecution and you find him standing to your right.

10             Please proceed.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

12        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

13        A.   Good afternoon.

14        Q.   Sir, just a couple of quick background questions to start.  You

15     gave two statements to the VRS military police during the war; correct?

16        A.   Quite possible.

17        Q.   You were interviewed shortly after your exchange; correct?

18        A.   There were several interviews.  Who knows how many of them there

19     were.

20        Q.   And then again in 1995, among any other times?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You also wrote a book about your experiences?

23        A.   Yes, I did, but the book mainly describes my time in captivity

24     and how I was treated by other people.  This is more or less a kind of

25     psychological analysis of what prompted those people to harbour such

Page 26448

 1     motivations that were totally contrary to any generally-accepted human

 2     values.  I quite simply wanted to leave a legacy for the generations to

 3     come, to my grandchildren, so that they know what their grandfather had

 4     gone through.  My intention was never to condemn anyone.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, was the question not answered?

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Several lines ago, yes, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Sir, before the war, did you have a house in the village of

 8     Dubovci?

 9        A.   Yes, that's the weekend cottage that I built in 1982.

10        Q.   I'd like to turn now to your service in the Territorial Defence

11     and the VRS.  You mentioned in your statement you were mobilised in early

12     June 1992.  You received a summons from the defence secretariat to report

13     to the town command; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And your immediate superior at this time was

16     Captain Gojko Stolic; correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And you became a commander of a group of guards, didn't you?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   You were initially stationed in front of a group of buildings in

21     Kotor Varos town; right?

22        A.   Yes.  That was precisely in front of a cluster of buildings where

23     I myself resided.

24        Q.   Those buildings were called Kocka 1, 2 and 3; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26449

 1        Q.   And you mentioned you resided there, those were residential

 2     high-rise apartment buildings; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   At this time, the Territorial Defence command was located in the

 5     same building as the Secretariat For National Defence and the police

 6     headquarters; right?

 7        A.   Right.

 8        Q.   And the guards which at this point were based in town several

 9     days after the takeover were relocated to the suburbs; right?  And by the

10     guards, I mean your unit that you were commander of.

11        A.   I remained for a long time at this very location near the

12     buildings on the hills, about a month or so.  After learning that we were

13     going to be attacked from the surrounding villages by Muslims and Croats,

14     the command of the company or rather the Territorial Defence established

15     a line, a defence line, along which we were deployed in order to defend

16     the town from the extremists' attack and that was in the suburbs of the

17     town.

18        Q.   And you were on a hill named Rujika; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Who gave you -- you said the command of the company or rather the

21     Territorial Defence established the line.  Who ordered you to go there?

22        A.   Captain Stolic.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock and it would

24     be an opportune moment for a break if that suits the Bench.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It suits us well.

Page 26450

 1             Witness, we take a break of 20 minutes.  You're invited to follow

 2     the usher.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We will resume at ten minutes to 2.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 1.28 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.52 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Not an audible volume.

 9             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you briefly now about the Serb military

12     formations in Kotor Varos respectively the Territorial Defence, the

13     Kotor Varos Light Brigade and the 22nd Brigade.

14             First, as of June 1992, Kotor Varos had a Territorial Defence

15     establishment that was the size of a light brigade; right?

16        A.   I don't know when that started, but yes, it did have a light

17     infantry brigade.  I don't know as of when.

18        Q.   I think you've answered a slightly different question than the

19     one I asked.  So let's start very specifically with the

20     Territorial Defence.  Before the war, the Territorial Defence

21     establishment in Kotor Varos was the same size in numerical strength as a

22     light brigade would be; right?

23        A.   I don't think so.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31373, page 15.  And this will

25     be your testimony in the Stanisic Zupljanin case.

Page 26451

 1                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, it's 31373 is it what I had asked for.  I'll

 3     be asking for page 15.

 4        Q.   Now, starting in the middle of line 11, you testified as follows:

 5             "According to some Territorial Defence rules, I suppose, before

 6     the war every village or town had a war establishment of the size of a

 7     light brigade; Banja Luka had several, Laktasi had one, Gradiste had one,

 8     likewise Kotor Varos also established its own brigade."

 9             Now, it appears that in this portion of your Stanisic Zupljanin

10     testimony, you're discussing the strength and size of the Territorial

11     Defence before the war; is that right?

12             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, I have to object here and I think that the

13     next sentence actually exactly explains what the witness was thinking or

14     which time.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is ambiguous in the early part it starts

16     with, "Before the war every village had..." et cetera, and then at the

17     end, apparently -- perhaps Mr. Traldi, you seek to clarify this because

18     the paragraph you're reading you're leaving out the part which puts it

19     beyond the beginning of the war, before the war, whereas the beginning of

20     this ...

21             MR. TRALDI:  Well, my understanding of the paragraph, and I'm

22     happy to clarify, is that the last sentence clarifies the portion

23     starting at likewise Kotor Varos.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Seek clarification with the witness.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.

Page 26452

 1        Q.   Sir, so first, just to help us distinguish between these three

 2     formations.  The Kotor Varos Territorial Defence was eventually

 3     transformed into the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade of the VRS;

 4     right?

 5        A.   When I spoke about the strength of the Territorial Defence, I

 6     wanted to say that every village in the municipality had a local unit as

 7     far as I know.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please focus on the question.

 9     That was whether the Kotor Varos Territorial Defence was eventually

10     transformed into the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade.  Was it or was

11     it not?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Well, yes, that was the case, yes

13     indeed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.

15        Q.   Now, before the transformation and I think you were starting to

16     discuss this a moment ago, was the strength of the Kotor Varos

17     Territorial Defence approximately the strength of a light brigade, taking

18     the various Serb villages and the municipality together?

19        A.   I suppose so, as soon as the brigade was established.

20        Q.   The commander of the light brigade once it was established was

21     Dusan Novakovic; right?

22        A.   I'm not absolutely sure about that.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... beginning of the same

24     document.  Actually that's what we're on.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Can we scroll to the bottom of the page.

Page 26453

 1        Q.   Now, in your Stanisic Zupljanin testimony you were asked:  "Do

 2     you know who the commander of that brigade was, the Kotor Varos light

 3     brigade?"

 4             And you answered:  "Yes.  The commander of that brigade was --"

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Then we turn to the next page.

 6        Q.   " -- Lieutenant-Colonel Dusan Novakovic.  He is from Banja Luka."

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.  But before him, there was either Manojlo Tepic or

 8     Gojko Stolic, I'm not sure.  In any case, I know that when I came back

 9     from the prison, I found a new commander there and that was

10     Dusan Novakovic.

11        Q.   Now the commander you interacted with was your direct superior

12     Captain Stolic; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   If we could please have 31381.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it sounds as if it's getting better now.

16             Mr. Traldi, could you resume --

17             MR. TRALDI:  If we could please have 65 ter 31381.

18        Q.   You just mentioned Manojlo Tepic and in paragraph 3 of your

19     statement you say he was the commander of the TO as well when you first

20     joined as well; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.  However, when the brigade was established,

22     he joined the brigade.  Or perhaps he remained as the chief of the

23     military department of the military.  I don't know.  I believe that there

24     was a time when he was simultaneously the brigade commander before

25     Novakovic joined, for a short time, that was.

Page 26454

 1        Q.   Well, sir, I think this might help clarify some of that.

 2             What we're seeing here is an order from the commander of the

 3     Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade dated the 8th of June, 1992.  And we

 4     see at the bottom that the commander is identified as

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Novakovic.  And it says under point A:

 6             "The following is posted as per the war-time establishment into

 7     the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade.  Tepic, son of Ljubo, Manojlo,

 8     Captain."

 9             So were you aware that at the time you were mobilised the person

10     you identified as TO commander was also and it says here the chief of the

11     Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade.  Did you know that?

12        A.   Whether he was chief or commander, I don't know.  But he was with

13     the brigade.  He was in the brigade but I don't know at what position.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31381 receives number P6807,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P6807 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Now, sir, the Kotor Varos light brigade had companies in the

21     villages of Kotor Varos, Vrbanjci, Maslovare and Grabovica; right?

22        A.   And Liplje.

23        Q.   As well as in Vagani, right?

24        A.   Vagani, yes.

25        Q.   Now do you know where Grabovica, the Grabovica company had its

Page 26455

 1     headquarters?

 2        A.   I don't know that.

 3        Q.   Now, when you joined the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade, your

 4     immediate superior was Captain Stolic just like it had been in the TO;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, turning to the 22nd Brigade, you mentioned in paragraph 2 of

 8     your statement that it was deployed in the region of Kotor Varos and its

 9     commander was Colonel Peulic.  A battalion of the brigade was based at

10     Maslovare; right?

11        A.   I have not been receiving interpretation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   Turning to the 22nd Brigade, you mentioned in paragraph 2 of your

15     statement that it was deployed in the region of Kotor Varos.  Are you

16     receiving interpretation now?

17        A.   Yes.  Now I can hear the interpreter.

18        Q.   Now the commander of that brigade was Colonel Bosko Peulic;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the battalion of the brigade was based at Maslovare; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You mentioned Slobodan Zupljanin in connection with the

24     negotiations at Vecici, he was the commander of that battalion; right?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 26456

 1        Q.   And you knew that --

 2        A.   I apologise, I apologise.  I beg your pardon.  I believe that he

 3     was a negotiator and that he went to negotiate in his capacity as the

 4     chief of the brigade not the commander of a battalion.

 5        Q.   Now, you knew at the time that Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic was in

 6     charge of a wider region not just Kotor Varos; right?

 7        A.   I've heard of that.

 8        Q.   And you don't know anything else about the organisation of the

 9     22nd Brigade; right?

10        A.   I really don't, no.

11        Q.   When you joined the Kotor Varos light brigade yourself, you

12     mentioned you were commander of the logistics battalion.  Where was that

13     battalion stationed?

14        A.   You misspoke.  I was never the commander of the logistics

15     battalion.  I was a platoon commander.

16        Q.   Sorry.  Commander of the logistics platoon.

17        A.   Yes, that's correct.

18        Q.   And where were you stationed?

19        A.   At the command in Kotor Varos.

20        Q.   Where in Kotor Varos was that?

21        A.   Our command was in the building of the workers university in

22     Kotor Varos, in the very centre of the city.

23        Q.   I want to take you back now to your time guarding Kocka 1, 2 and

24     3.  Your task was not to let the population out of the buildings and to

25     make sure that nobody used weapons or killed anybody; right?

Page 26457

 1        A.   Our task was to prevent people from using weapons in any activity

 2     that they may have undertaken.  That was if we observed somebody carrying

 3     weapons.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31374, page 10.

 5        Q.   This is another portion of your testimony in the Stanisic and

 6     Zupljanin case.

 7             Starting at line 16, you were asked:  "And this Kocka 1, 2 and 3,

 8     what were these buildings exactly?  What were you guarding exactly?"

 9             And you answered:  "Our task was not to allow the population to

10     go out of the buildings and we were to make sure that nobody used any

11     weapons and killed anyone."

12             So having reviewed that portion of your previous testimony, it's

13     true that part of your task was not to allow the population to go out of

14     the buildings; right?

15        A.   Well, that would be more or less the same thing that I have just

16     said.  Only those people who didn't carry any weapons could actually

17     leave.  If you had weapons, you couldn't go out.

18        Q.   Now, that's not what you previously testified; right?  What you

19     previously testified was that your task was to prevent the population

20     from going out of the buildings.

21        A.   To prevent, yes.  But all that is one and the same thing.

22     Weapons could be used by those who had them on them and if we spotted

23     somebody with weapons, we informed the enforcement bodies who would come

24     and confiscate those weapons from those people.  So that's that.  It all

25     boils to one and the same thing.

Page 26458

 1        Q.   I have a couple of follow-up questions.  First, who were the

 2     enforcement bodies that you would inform if someone had weapons?

 3        A.   The police.  The brigade command.

 4        Q.   When you say the brigade command, do you mean the

 5     1st Light Infantry Brigade, the 22nd Brigade or both?

 6        A.   The 1st Light Infantry Brigade.  We're not that close to the

 7     22nd.

 8        Q.   And sir, just to finish for today, I'd put to you that in fact,

 9     at this time the population was prevented from leaving buildings in

10     Kotor Varos and that your testimony in Stanisic Zupljanin was truthful.

11     That was, in fact, part of your job, to keep people in buildings in Kotor

12     Varos.  That's true, isn't it?

13        A.   This is the truth, but let me tell you why.  It was for the

14     safety of the people because you couldn't tell where fire was coming

15     from, from which side because there were extremists on all the four sides

16     of the world, the north, the south, the east and the west so people were

17     absolutely the safest if they were in their homes.  Or at least that's

18     how things were presented to us who were in charge of the detail.

19        Q.   Just to follow up.  Who presented things to you that way?

20        A.   Please explain.  Clarify.

21        Q.   You said "that's how things were presented -- that's how things

22     were presented to us who were in charge of the detail."  So who presented

23     things to you that way?

24        A.   Our superiors, the company commanders for the most part.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I didn't stop you a minute ago when you

Page 26459

 1     said I'll finish by this question but now we are the third question so we

 2     really have -- if it's one question I'll allow you to do it but otherwise

 3     we'll just continue tomorrow.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I could close the topic with one more question,

 5     Mr. President, if that was --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is really one, then I would allow you to do

 7     it.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, at this time, you wore an olive grey military uniform and

10     carried an automatic rifle; right?

11        A.   Yes, I was wearing an olive drab uniform.  I had originally this

12     old M-48 rifle and then after a while, I was given an automatic rifle.

13             MR. TRALDI:  I thank you for your indulgence, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Mr. Bubic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

16     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  But before you leave

17     the courtroom I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak with

18     anyone or communicate in whatever way with whomever it may be about your

19     testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or whether that's

20     testimony still to be given tomorrow.

21             You may now follow the usher.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Understood.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 26460

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you've used 30 minutes.  Your indication

 2     that would you use one hour and a half.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  And I expect to be at least a little bit under that,

 4     Mr. President.  I'll finish in the first session tomorrow.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We will adjourn for the day and will resume

 6     tomorrow, Wednesday, the 1st of October, in this same courtroom III at

 7     9.30 in the morning.

 8             We stand adjourned.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

11                           October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.