1 Thursday, 2 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I think despite the
11 fact that there are some minor issues pending, we'll first continue with
12 the witness.
13 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
14 Perhaps I meanwhile with deal with one of them. The Prosecution
15 has informed the parties that it has discovered an error in the English
16 translation of P2900 which was admitted through Ewan Brown on the 12th of
17 December of last year. Several pages were in incorrect order and also
18 several pages were missing. The corrected English translation that is
19 been uploaded into e-court under doc ID B003-2526-1ET.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that you'd like to have the original
22 document be replaced by the new one?
23 MR. JEREMY: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, that's correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, you're hereby instructed to replace
25 the existing document under P2900 by the new one of which I just read out
1 the number.
2 Mr. Lukic, if there's any problems, within 48 hours we'd like to
3 hear from you.
4 Then good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, I'd first like to remind you that
7 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
8 begin of your testimony. Mr. Jeremy will now continue his
10 WITNESS: BRANKO DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
11 JUDGE ORIE: And before we do so. May I urge the parties that in
12 view of the assessment of the next witness and in view of the fact that
13 we are not sitting next week that we do our utmost best to see that we
14 can conclude the evidence of the next witness today.
15 Mr. Jeremy.
16 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Now, in your statement, you discuss Betonjerka prison and I'd
21 like to start today by discussing that in a little bit more detail with
23 MR. JEREMY: Could we please see paragraph 32 of your statement
24 D675 on the screen. And if we could go to page 8 in the English and page
25 10 in the B/C/S, please. There we are.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, in paragraph 32, referring to Betonjerka
2 prison, you -- midway down that paragraph, you say:
3 "As I have already stated, it was not the military that brought
4 these people in. That was within the purview of the police."
5 Now, here you're referring to captured persons being brought in
6 to Betonjerka prison; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, these were persons captured during the mop-up operations
9 that you were involved in in late May, early June; correct?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So are you saying that persons who you dealt with during the
12 mop-up operations in Hrustovo and Vrhpolje, no persons from those
13 villages were -- were brought into Betonjerka prison; is that your
15 A. The persons that I had contact with were not taken there.
16 Q. I accept that the -- you say the persons that you had contact
17 with were not taken there, but are you aware that persons were taken
18 there from Vrhpolje and Hrustovo during the mop-up operations that you
19 were involved in?
20 A. Since I was only a commander of one battalion, and there were a
21 number of units, I don't know about those other units. Now, as the
22 commander of my battalion and my subordinates, I know that they never
23 arrested anyone, nor did they bring anyone to the Betonjerka prison.
24 Q. Mr. Davidovic, in paragraph 32 of your statement, and I've read
25 out the quote, you don't limit your evidence to your own battalion. You
1 say that it was not the military that brought these people in; correct?
2 A. That is what I believed, and I didn't have different information.
3 In addition, we had no order to detain --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'll stop you there. Your statement reads:
5 "As I have already stated, it was not the military that brought
6 those people in."
7 I now do understand that that is what you believe, although your
8 statement doesn't say "I believe that," but your statement says they were
9 not brought in by the military. You tell us now that what happened in
10 other units you are not aware of. Therefore, I take it that you're also
11 not aware of whether they were taken, the captured persons were taken to
12 Betonjerka. Is that --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't speak about other units,
14 but about myself and my unit, I can claim --
15 JUDGE ORIE: We leave it to that. You can't say anything about
16 that. So therefore your statement that they were not brought in by the
17 military is a statement which expresses your belief, not knowledge of
19 Please proceed.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: If I may just also ask a question.
21 Mr. Davidovic, at page 3, line 1, Mr. Jeremy asked you the
23 "Now, here you're referring to captured persons being brought in
24 to Betonjerka prison; correct?"
25 And you said:
2 My question to you is by whom were these people captured?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the best of my knowledge, the
4 majority of the people who were brought there were taken in by the public
5 security services of the security service centre in Sanski Most.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's not my question. I'm not saying who
7 brought them in, I said who captured them?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know. I suppose
9 that they interviewed them there on the spot. I don't know.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much. You don't know.
11 Mr. Jeremy, you may proceed.
12 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Could we look at an exhibit in connection with this topic and
14 it's P2900, which is the exhibit that we've just corrected. Now the
15 correction means that our pages are thrown out slightly but we are
16 dealing with that.
17 Could we please see page 14 in the English and page 18 in the
19 Q. Mr. Davidovic, while that's being brought up, the chief of the
20 Sanski Most public security station was Mirko Vrucinic; correct?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, I do understand that although I
22 instructed the Registry to replace the old one by the new one that it has
23 not been completed yet, so that it's still the old one at this moment we
24 are working with. And perhaps since you're now questioning the witness
25 about P2900, that you later in one way or another guide us through where
1 we have to find what you refer to now in that new version.
2 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour. I'll do that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. JEREMY: In which case could we please see page 2 of P2900 in
5 the English and page 8 -- we've got the correct page in the B/C/S.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, we see that this is a report of the
7 Sanski Most SJB and it's dated the 18th of August, 1992. And it's sent
8 to the National Security Service of the CSB.
9 MR. JEREMY: Could we go to page 4 in the English, please, and
10 page 21 in the B/C/S.
11 Q. And we see there that it is signed by the chief of the SJB
12 Mirko Vrucinic.
13 MR. JEREMY: Can we please go back to page 2 in the English and
14 18 in the B/C/S.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, we see at the top of the text, typed text,
16 the existence of collection and investigation centres in the
18 In the first paragraph, we read that during the time of the armed
19 conflict, two collection and investigation centres were set up in Sanski
20 Most. And in the next sentence, Betonjerka is mentioned.
21 Now, the next paragraph deals specifically with the setting up of
22 that facility. I'd like to go to the third paragraph and ask you to
23 focus on that. And in particular, the first sentence. There we read:
24 "Most of the persons, about 90 per cent, were brought in by the
25 army as prisoners from the zones where there had been fighting."
1 In the next paragraph --
2 MR. JEREMY: And we'll need to go to the next page in the B/C/S.
3 Q. -- we read:
4 "The army brought in prisoners from the zones in which combat
5 operations had taken place in trucks and buses, housed them in the
6 facilities mentioned (the centres) but do not make lists of the persons
7 brought in. Persons were brought in by the army in the standard manner
8 by patrols and detention orders."
9 Now, Mr. Davidovic, you would agree that the chief of the
10 Sanski Most security centre would have known whether or not it was the
11 army that was bringing in prisoners to Betonjerka prison?
12 A. If you allow me, I can tell you that I really don't know about
13 this. Maybe Mirko Vrucinic counted as part of the army Territorial
14 Defence who were also uniformed --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what may be have been the case is not
16 something we invite you to speak about. What you know, you can tell us.
17 Mr. Jeremy, the document was put to the witness in which it
18 clearly states that at least the army was bringing in prisoners to the
19 detention facilities. The witness says he doesn't know about it.
20 Therefore, let's leave it to that and we cannot -- we don't have the
21 benefit of the knowledge of the witness to further assist the Chamber in
22 this respect.
23 Meanwhile, by the way, the new version of P2900 is in e-court so
24 if you would like to use that version, you have an opportunity to do so.
25 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I'm moving away from this document now
1 but I will follow up with the relevant page number corrections.
2 JUDGE ORIE: There are not many, I believe. Yes. Now, that's
3 fine. If there's no change in the page numbering you're referring to,
4 because you took us to the cover page, to the signature page, and then to
5 page 2. If page 2 is still page 2, then there's no need to further
7 MR. JEREMY: In fact, the cover page is now page 14. The
8 signature page is page 16, and the second page I moved to is page 15 in
9 the English version.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's hereby on the record then. Please
11 proceed. There's no need to further explain.
12 MR. JEREMY:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I'd like to go back to paragraph 32 of your
15 MR. JEREMY: Could we put that on the screen, please, D675.
16 Q. Now, in the final two sentences of paragraph 32, you state:
17 "Also, the military did not send detainees to Manjaca nor did it
18 secure these convoys. All that was within the purview of civilian
20 Now, in connection with this part of your statement, I'd like to
21 show you another document. That's P2409.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Jeremy, the first question for the
23 witness would be do you believe that the army did not secure these
24 convoys and that they did not send detainees to Manjaca or do you know.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that my unit never sent or
1 escorted anyone.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, do I understand you clearly that
3 you do not know whether other units, other army units sent people to
4 Manjaca and were involved in the -- in escorting the convoys, to secure
5 the convoys?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the information that I
7 had, members of the 6th Sanska Infantry Brigade never took anyone to
8 Manjaca nor had they escorted anyone.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, that's not what your statement
10 says but it's hereby then corrected that it was not your unit and that on
11 the basis of your information other units neither did it, and what your
12 information is remains totally unclear.
13 Mr. Jeremy, if you put the document to the witness, we could keep
14 it pretty short, I would say.
15 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Davidovic, what is the basis of your knowledge for saying
17 that units -- other units of the 6th Sanska Infantry Brigade did not send
18 prisoners to Manjaca?
19 A. Well, I learned that at the meetings with the brigade command and
20 the Chief of Staff, and it was never mentioned that any of our members or
21 our units sent anyone to Manjaca.
22 Q. Were you familiar with Colonel Stevilovic?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If I told you he was the assistant commander for intelligence and
25 security in the 1st Krajina Corps, would that refresh your memory?
1 A. No.
2 MR. JEREMY: Let's take a look at P2409, please.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, we see that this is a document dated the
4 4th of June, 1992, and we see that these are conclusions of the
5 Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most from a session
6 held on the 4th of June, 1992.
7 We see they adopted the following conclusions, and I'd like to
8 focus on the first. We read, number one:
9 "Mirko Vrucinic, Nedjelko Rasula, and Colonel Nedo Anicic shall
10 be in charge of resolving the issue of prisoners and their categorisation
11 and deportation to Manjaca. The first category, politicians; second
12 category, national extremists; third category, people unwelcome in Sanski
13 Most municipality.
14 "In view of this have a talk with Colonel Stevilovic from the
15 1st Krajina Corps."
16 Now, Mr. Davidovic, this document is dated the 4th of June 1992.
17 That's immediately after the mop-up operations that the 6th Brigade were
18 involved in in Mahala, Vrhpolje and Hrustovo; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.
25 Any questions in redirect?
1 MR. LUKIC: Just a few one.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: I'll stay with the same document. If we can have it
4 on the screen.
5 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Davidovic, good morning once again.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. The Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most,
9 according to you and to the best of your knowledge, was it able to issue
10 any orders to an officer belonging to the 1st Krajina Corps?
11 A. No.
12 Q. In the spirit of our language, the sentence that was read out to
13 you, to the effect that talks should be held with Colonel Stevilovic, is
14 that the future tense?
15 A. Yes. To hold talks means in the future.
16 Q. Are you aware that the Manjaca facility was under the
17 jurisdiction of the corps?
18 A. I don't know that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we have any confusion, you asked the witness
20 what have talks would mean, meaning in the future. My understanding of
21 the English language doesn't bring me any other interpretation, but I'm
22 also looking at the Prosecution in view of this, have a talk with means
23 engage in a conversation still to be held. So I was puzzled by why you
24 referred to your language where at least the English, as far as I can
25 see, raises no doubts as to the meaning of this to be in the future.
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, at least then I was not puzzled, the
2 only one, actually, puzzled by this line of questions because the line of
3 questions was whether your unit ever transported prisoners to Manjaca and
4 I don't know what we got from this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, only that they discussed, they discussed
6 prisoners in three categories and that they -- it was intended that
7 someone would talk to Mr. Stevilovic, that's the only thing I think we
8 get from this document, exclusively this document. The context in which
9 it was presented, of course, is a different matter and whether other
10 evidence sheds more or a different light on what we read here.
11 MR. LUKIC: Okay.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Before I continue with my cross-examination I just
14 want to say, because we have to save time today, and -- topic with the
15 Colonel Basara, whether he was a member of the Crisis Staff or not, I
16 think is better to discuss with Colonel Basara who is going to testify in
17 this case.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you whether you consider it. I think
19 we will do well within the time estimates we made today, and I am
20 surprised that you say you're going to cross-examine the witness. That's
21 at least how it was translated.
22 MR. LUKIC: Redirect, sorry.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Redirect, yes. I don't know what the testimony of
24 that witness will bring us, so if you think that it's of any use to also
25 ask this witness about, but first of all whether he has any knowledge of
1 it which is not the same as whether he has any beliefs in it, then please
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. [Interpretation] You were shown -- or rather on page 2654 --
5 26514 from line 10 onwards, that's on yesterday's transcript, you were
6 asked whether you co-ordinated your actions with the Territorial Defence
7 and public security when you guarded facilities. We are talking about
8 the 20th of April, 1992.
9 On the 20th of April, who headed the Territorial Defence in
10 Sanski Most?
11 A. Colonel Nedjelko Anicic.
12 Q. And the public security centre?
13 A. Mirko Vrucinic.
14 Q. Did the military issue orders to the Territorial Defence in
15 Sanski Most?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I suppose that it didn't, but did it issue orders to the public
18 security centre?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Just briefly, based on what you know about the Crisis Staff, you
21 sometimes attended meetings of the Crisis Staff instead of Basara, you
22 told us that. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. What did Colonel Basara tell you when he asked you to go in his
25 stead? Did he tell you that you could vote on his behalf?
1 A. No, I couldn't vote.
2 Q. Just a moment. So you couldn't. Did he tell you that he had the
3 right of vote when decisions were made by the Crisis Staff?
4 A. He told us that he was not a member of the Crisis Staff but that
5 he occasionally attended the meetings of the Crisis Staff.
6 Q. Yesterday on transcript page - I'm moving on to another topic -
7 26532, you were shown P2502.
8 MR. LUKIC: It's under seal because it's the statement of the
9 witness. RM708.
10 MR. JEREMY: Yeah, that was my mistake. It's not under seal.
11 MR. LUKIC: Oh no, okay. So I'm just referencing the document.
12 We don't even have to have it on our screens. But -- now we have it,
13 that's fine.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday, you told us about Hrustovo and the
15 death of the three fighters who were moving in the direction of Hrustovo.
16 Had an ultimatum been given before the military started moving in the
17 direction of Hrustovo?
18 A. Yes. There was an announcement that looked like an ultimatum,
19 but it was a request more than anything else. It was addressed that all
20 the people who had weapons, asking them to hand them over to avoid
21 combat, to avoid fighting.
22 Q. Were civilians mentioned in that request?
23 A. Civilians were not mentioned. The only thing that was requested
24 was for the weapons to be handed over.
25 Q. After that, after that request demand, ultimatum, whatever you
1 want to call it, what happened to the civilians in Hrustovo?
2 A. If you will allow me, I'd like to tell you about the conversation
3 with the representative of the village whom I invited to talk to me.
4 Q. We have that in your statement. Do you know what happened to the
5 civilians? Did they stay? Did they leave? What do you know about the
6 civilians in Hrustovo?
7 A. Apart from what I stated in the statement and the case that I
8 mentioned and that I witnessed, I have no other information. That's all
9 I know.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. That's all we had for you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you have any questions, Mr. Jeremy? But I
12 would have one or two questions first.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, that ultimatum was addressed to whom?
15 A. To the villagers of Hrustovo and Vrhpolje who were there and
16 others who were staying with them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Was the -- were these villages mainly populated by
19 A. Yes, one could say a hundred per cent.
20 JUDGE ORIE: To whom did they have to render their weapons?
21 A. They were supposed to hand over their weapons either to us, the
22 military, or to the public security centre.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say the military, exactly when was it
24 in time? Just before early June, is that, late May?
25 A. That was sometime in May -- in April, the end of April, the
1 beginning of May. I don't know exactly. It's in my statement. I can't
2 remember as I sit here today.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So that's still during the JNA time, if I could say
5 A. I don't know the exact date when the JNA became the VRS, when
6 that changed.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we leave it to that.
8 Was an ultimatum sent to Serb villages as well?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any reason why they did not receive such an
12 A. Because the majority Serbian population, i.e., able-bodied men,
13 had responded to the call-ups and they joined various units, and thus
14 they received weapons legally and used them for various activities.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But there were Serbs who were not in the army,
16 weren't they?
17 A. Yes, there were such people. They also had weapons. I suppose
18 that they guarded them to protect themselves because the unit was not
19 always deployed in the territory of Sanski Most.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So if I understand you well, that the Serbs were
21 allowed, those who were not members of the army, were allowed to keep
22 their weapons to defend themselves, whereas the Muslims were -- were sent
23 an ultimatum that they should render the weapons because you thought they
24 would use them for other purposes. Is that well understood?
25 A. Well, as a matter of fact, yes, but there weren't many, as far as
1 I know, but I can't really talk about everything with full certainty.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you've been in that area for that period
3 of time. Could you tell us the end result as far as casualties are
4 concerned. Could you give us any idea about how many Serbs,
5 approximately, died as a consequence of combat, crimes being executed,
6 whatever, and how many Muslims were finally killed either in combat or by
7 criminal activities during that relatively short period of time, let's
8 say, after the -- well, let's say in the month May, June, after the
10 A. I don't know that. I don't know it for a fact. I know that
11 throughout the war, 472 men in my brigade got killed, over 2.000 were
12 wounded. And as for the entire area throughout the period that you have
13 mentioned, I really don't know. I don't want to make a mistake if I tell
14 you anything. And if you will allow me, I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. In your brigade, there were --
16 all those who were -- got killed, were they Serbs or were they persons of
17 another ethnicity?
18 A. I think -- actually, I know for a fact that one of them was a
19 Muslim, but he died of natural causes. I believe that there were one or
20 two cases of people who got killed and who were not Serbs.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I do understand from your answer that you
22 do not know how many Muslims were killed during that period. This
23 Chamber has received some evidence about Muslims being killed and
24 evidence which I think yesterday you questioned whether it was accurate
25 or not, but apart from that, do you know anything about numbers of
1 Muslims killed either in combat or through criminal activity of persons
2 carrying weapons? Whether it's a crime or whether you call it combat I'm
3 not that much interested in it. But do you have any idea about the
4 number of Muslims that got killed?
5 A. I don't know. I can only tell you what I heard. I don't have an
6 idea of my own. I apologise, may I just say that I'm really sorry for
7 all the victims, but it happened. It just happened.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether it just happened is further to be
9 considered. Tell us what you heard about the number of Muslims that got
10 killed in Sanski Most. How many did you hear?
11 A. Throughout all that time, according to what I heard, some 200 or
12 so were killed.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, any further questions for the witness?
14 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:
17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you were shown a document dated the 4th of June
18 1992, and this is a document that related to the categorisation of
19 prisoners to be taken to Manjaca and there's a reference to the
20 consultation with Colonel Stevilovic. You recall that, yes?
21 Now --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Where does the document say that they had to be
23 taken to Manjaca? Could I just have a look at it again?
24 MR. JEREMY: Certainly. Could we look at P2409.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You'll forgive me that I don't have a ...
1 MR. JEREMY: So just in the first sentence, number one, you
2 see --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, I see it. Yes, yes.
4 MR. JEREMY: [Overlapping speakers] ... persons.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let me see. One second. Yes.
6 MR. JEREMY: There's a reference to categorisation and the
7 deportation to Manjaca.
8 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please. Yes. Please proceed.
9 MR. JEREMY:
10 Q. Now, you were asked whether the language suggested that this was
11 a conversation to be had in the future and you agreed that it was. Now,
12 in connection with that I'd like to show you a follow-up document --
13 MR. JEREMY: And that's P3255. Could we have that on our
14 screens, please. Thank you.
15 Q. Now, we see that this is a document. It's dated the 6th of June,
16 1992. It's from the public security station Sanski Most. It's signed
17 Acting Chief of Police Security Station, Mirko Vrucinic. I'd like to
18 refer your attention to the first paragraph where we read:
19 "In accordance with the agreement reached with the Banja Luka
20 corps command (Colonel Stevilovic) and the chief of the police department
21 of the Banja Luka Security Services Centre, Stevo Markovic, we are
22 sending you a group of persons who were captured during combat operations
23 in the municipality of Sanski Most as well as the persons who co-operated
24 with them in the course of preparations for an armed uprising in the
25 municipality of Sanski Most."
1 Mr. Davidovic, you would agree that this appears a conversation
2 was indeed had with Mr. Stevilovic and he was involved in the
3 transportation of these prisoners to Manjaca camp; yes?
4 A. I have to say that Manjaca was a military facility from before.
5 That facility belonged to the military. Who did what during the war, I
6 don't know. All I know that before the war, it was already a designated
7 military facility.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, just one final question. You refer to
9 casualties in your unit and in your statement you refer to four documents
10 that contain details of the wounding and death of members of your unit.
11 I just want to clarify that these wounding and these deaths occurred in
12 September and October 1995; is that correct?
13 A. If we can see it in the document, that that's that.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 MR. LUKIC: Just short one regarding these documents. My --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, it's usually -- you have called the
18 witness, cross-examined --
19 MR. LUKIC: I know.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- re-examined, further cross.
21 MR. LUKIC: I kindly ask you just to explain why he mentioned
22 those documents from 1995, if you can ask him that, because of the
23 position he held at that time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I asked about early 1992 so I now
25 understood, irrespective of what the reasons may have been, that he
1 referred to numbers which are of 1995 and therefore has not answered my
2 question. That's -- he may have had good reasons for that.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] His statement is in regard to
4 1992 but these documents are from 1995.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll carefully look at them and then the
6 witness may have had his reasons to refer to those documents. We leave
7 it to that.
8 Mr. Davidovic, this concludes your testimony in this Court. I'd
9 like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having
10 answered all the questions that were put to you either by the Defence or
11 by the Prosecution or by the Bench and I wish you a safe return home
13 You may follow the usher.
14 MR. JEREMY: Your Honours, just one question for Mr. Lukic.
15 He --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 MR. JEREMY: He didn't tender the associated exhibits. I'm not
18 sure if you were planning to.
19 MR. LUKIC: I thought we'll deal with that during the
20 administrative proceedings.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We don't need the witness for that, I take it.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps can we use the remaining five minutes for
24 associated exhibits with this witness. Let's have a look at this.
25 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I spoke with my learned friend yesterday
1 and I was informed that they might object to the first associated
2 exhibits aside from the statement. It's 1D20348.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you just give me a second of time. Let's see
4 what we have. We have the -- first of all, we have the statement, the
5 second one is pending translation.
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes. That's why I said Prosecution, as I understood
7 them, intends to object it. That translation was supposed to be
8 finalised yesterday. But I checked in this morning, it has not been
9 translated yet. So we would just propose that to be MFI'd.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Any objection against it being MFI'd,
11 Mr. Jeremy?
12 MR. JEREMY: No, Your Honours, but it's an extract of a larger
13 document so I would like to reserve the right to perhaps add in
14 additional excerpts if we feel they provide you with additional context.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do see that Mr. Lukic does not oppose that
17 Therefore, Madam Registrar, 1D02034a would receive number?
18 THE REGISTRAR: D676, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
20 Then I move through the list. 1D03069 would receive number?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Number D677, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. 1D03448.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Number D678.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. 1D03449.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Number D679, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted. 1D03450.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Number D680, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence. If --
4 MR. LUKIC: And that's it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's it because all the other documents referred
6 to are already in evidence.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I'd like to briefly, because we
9 have two minutes left, deal with the other documents which are still
10 pending. I do understand that two revised English translations were
11 received by the Prosecution, that they were uploaded into e-court, and
12 I'll deal with each of the two.
13 For P4971, the newly uploaded English translation in e-court is
14 known under doc ID 0082-0954-1.
15 Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the old
16 English translation by the new one.
17 I now come to P5023. The new version of the English translation
18 has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID 0607-1691-1.
19 Madam Registrar, you are hereby instructed to replace the current
20 English translation with the new one uploaded under number I just
22 I think that deals with the -- those administrative matters.
23 None other pending at this moment.
24 And, Mr. Jeremy, I see that Ms. Stewart is hiding behind a
25 column, but if she confirms even only by nodding that I've dealt with all
1 the pending issues in this respect.
2 Then we can take a break.
3 Is the Defence ready to call the next witness after the break?
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And that's no protective measures for Mr. Petkovic.
6 MR. LUKIC: No protective measures, no.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Half an hour, 45 minutes for the Prosecution as
8 matters stand now.
9 We take the break and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Petkovic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
18 make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to you and I'd like to
19 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, Your Honours.
22 WITNESS: SVETOZAR PETKOVIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Petkovic.
25 Mr. Petkovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You
1 find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning, Your
5 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Petkovic.
7 A. Good morning to you, too.
8 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record but slowly.
9 A. Svetozar, father's name Ilija, Petkovic, born on 27th January,
10 1947, in the former Republic of Montenegro.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Petkovic, have you given a statement to
12 General Mladic's Defence team about the events in Foca in writing?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we have in
15 e-court document 65 ter 1D01693.
16 Q. Mr. Petkovic, you can see in front of you -- this is your first
17 appearance before this Court?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I would kindly ask you to look in front of you on the screen.
20 There's a statement there and I'm asking you to tell me whether this is
21 your signature on this page?
22 A. Yes, I have signed it in front of your colleagues who interviewed
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the last page
1 of this document.
2 Q. Is this your signature as well on the last page of this document
3 as well as the date when you signed it? Did you write it with your own
5 A. Yes, that is the date when they came and I signed confirming the
6 veracity of the statement.
7 Q. Thank you. If I were, after you have given the solemn
8 declaration, to put the same questions to you, would you confirm once
9 again that everything contained in this statement is truthful?
10 A. I wouldn't change anything that has been recorded and I can
11 confirm that it reflects everything I said.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
14 tender the witness's statement, the statement of Svetozar Petkovic,
15 65 ter 1D01693.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1693 receives number D681, Your
19 JUDGE ORIE: D681 is admitted into evidence.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. If you either by reading a
21 summary of this statement and if you have any further questions for the
22 witness, to put them to him.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. With your
24 leave, I'm going to read the summary of Petkovic Svetozar's statement.
25 When the war broke out, he was a teacher at the secondary school
1 in Foca. As of 1993, he was a teacher at the faculty of dentistry.
2 Following the outbreak of war in Foca, he was tasked with the
3 Crisis Staff to provide food supplies and equipment supplies for the
4 population and the units stationed in Foca.
5 At the moment when first major armed conflicts broke out in the
6 town itself on the 8th and 9th April, 1992, misinformation was broadcast
7 in the media about the arrival of 5.000 Chetniks from Montenegro which
8 triggered the events in which the majority of the Muslim population being
9 afraid decided to leave the town.
10 In April, May, and June of 1992, there were armed groups and
11 individuals in Foca municipality who were not under a single command so
12 that there was complete lawlessness there.
13 The Crisis Staff was unable and didn't have the strength to stop
14 the self-will of these groups and the self-proclaimed commanders.
15 For several months following the liberation of Foca, the town was
16 cut off from the military and civilian authorities beyond Foca.
17 He has personal knowledge of the fact that towards the end of
18 June 1992, a first group of JNA officers arrived in Foca who placed
19 themselves at the disposal of the Crisis Staff of Foca.
20 In early June -- in early July or late June, a brigade was
21 established. The witness was tasked with the duty of the headquarters
22 commander as well as the task of being involved in humanitarian
23 activities to serve the needs of the population of Foca regardless of
24 their ethnicity. He witnessed, himself, the confrontation between the
25 VRS command and various paramilitary groups in an attempt to place them
1 within the system of singleness of command and subordination.
2 He states that Marko Kovac, as the commander of a military unit
3 in Foca, throughout the whole 1992 failed to completely disband these
4 units and oust them from Foca municipality.
5 With your leave, Your Honours, I would only put a couple of
6 questions to the witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Can we please have in e-court paragraph 3 of the document D681
10 which is the witness statement.
11 Q. Mr. Petkovic, my question is the following: In your statement,
12 you spoke about dissemination of misinformation on the radio. Can you
13 tell the Chamber, were you in a position to hear this misinformation?
14 A. Your Honours, I was driving in a vehicle where we, as usual, were
15 listening to Radio Sarajevo. At one point, journalist Semso Tockakovic
16 announced on Radio Sarajevo that 5.000 armed Chetniks from Montenegro
17 were coming to Foca.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. You are now telling us what
19 you heard on the radio. Now that already appears in your statement. The
20 question was put to you whether you could hear that on the radio and you
21 said you were listening to the radio driving in a car. Now, I don't know
22 whether there would be much dispute about if there is a public broadcast,
23 that everyone who has a radio or a car with a radio in it, whatever, can
24 listen to that. So the relevant information is has the witness heard it
25 by his own ears and he says yes, and that's what I take it from the
1 statement as well. So let's try to be concise.
2 And, Mr. Stojanovic, try to keep the witness with your question
3 and don't ask any questions on obvious matters. And don't seek
4 repetition of what is already in the statement.
5 You may proceed.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. In paragraph 7 of your statement --
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And can we please focus our
9 attention on paragraph 7.
10 Q. -- about the fact that towards the end of June or in early July
11 1992, a brigade in Preljuca was officially established. Can you please
12 tell the Chamber according to what you know, prior to the establishment
13 of the brigade was in charge of the combat and the units of
14 Territorial Defence in Foca?
15 A. Prior to that was Miroslav Stanic, the commander of the Crisis
16 Staff, who held all the reins in his hands. There were, though, a lot of
17 paramilitary units that were more or less involved in plundering,
18 expulsion of people, so there were no organised units of territorial and
19 military district, so whoever had any kind of weapon became involved.
20 There was no proper command that would lead us in the right direction and
21 follow orders so that we can perform the tasks in the best possible way.
22 Q. Thank you. I'm going to finish with the following question.
23 When you say in paragraph 8 of your statement that you were sure that
24 Marko Kovac as the commander failed to fully disband those units, what is
25 the basis of that claim in your statement when you say that you were sure
1 of that?
2 A. I was present on several occasions when he tried to communicate
3 with those paramilitary units, however, they completely ignored him. I
4 was also present when one of the citizens and a person from the former
5 Serbia was running a store selling TV sets and furniture. He was
6 supposed to transport these goods to Serbia, but this self-proclaimed
7 commander of a paramilitary unit by the name of Pero Elez seized this
8 truck trailer with all the goods, and I was present in the command
9 headquarters when this man came to Marko Kovac seeking his assistance to
10 have his commodities returned to him because they had requested 5.000
11 German marks to return it to him.
12 Marko advised him neither to try to get the goods and not to give
13 them any money because even if he gave them the money, they were going to
14 kill him. That led me to conclude that Marko was totally incapable of
15 dealing with these units or issuing any orders to them.
16 In addition to that, I was present all the time while these
17 paramilitary units were there. Marko was in charge of a long front line
18 where combatants were deployed, while at the same time these paramilitary
19 units were loitering around the town and plundering. I heard a lot of
20 bad things about them although I was not always present, but I do know
21 that they were looting.
22 Q. Mr. Petkovic, thank you for your answers.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no
24 questions for this witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 Ms. MacGregor, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
2 MS. MacGREGOR: Good morning, Mr. President. I am ready. If you
3 can just give me a moment to set up my stand.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Petkovic, you will be cross-examined by Ms. MacGregor.
6 You'll find her to your right. Ms. MacGregor is counsel for the
8 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Petkovic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. In your statement, you mention Miro Stanic, head of the Crisis
13 Staff. Did you know him personally?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. Did you know Petko Cancar, the mayor of Foca personally?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. Did you know Vojislav Maksimovic, an SDS politician in Foca? Did
18 you know him personally?
19 A. Yes. Yes, personally.
20 Q. And Velibor Ostojic, the minister of information. Did you
21 personally know him?
22 A. I knew him as well.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 03579.
24 Q. Mr. Petkovic, you'll see on your screen I'm bringing up a
25 transcript of a broadcast on Belgrade Radio from 14 April 1992.
1 MS. MacGREGOR: And if we can focus on the first couple
2 paragraphs on the English version so that they're a bit larger, please.
3 Q. Now, you can see in parentheses near the top, it says,
4 "Velibor Ostojic report from Foca."
5 Now, I'm going to read from the transcript of the broadcast.
6 "Fighting has continued in Foca today. It is fierce and climaxed
7 at around 1500 when Serbian territorials wanted to liberate the residents
8 from one of the most conspicuous skyscrapers in Donje Polje which the
9 party of democratic action fighters had turned into a veritable bunker of
10 sniper nests. A fierce battle then flared up in which all weapons were
12 Is the reference to Serbian territorials a reference to the
13 Serbian Territorial Defence?
14 Mr. Petkovic, do you need me to repeat my question? I believe
15 you do.
16 The reference in this broadcast to the Serbian Territorials, do
17 you understand that as a reference to the Serbian Territorial Defence in
19 A. Well, I suppose so. It was not an organised unit. It was not a
20 special unit.
21 Q. Now if we move on to the question posed by the announcer, it
23 "So, if we understand you, one side does not control Foca but
24 fighting is continuing."
25 Ostojic answers:
1 "The Serbian Territorial Defence is controlling a huge part of
2 the town. They are particularly in control of the wide area of the
3 commune. The entire Territorial Defence is the Foca commune is on its
5 Is the description Ostojic provides of the situation in Foca
6 consistent with your recollection of events around April 14, 1992?
7 A. Things developed more or less in that way, but I didn't know
8 whether that was called a Territorial Defence because I know that it was
9 all in a very unorganised manner. No specialty was taken into account
10 when we were engaged in our units, and we were engaged in various parts
11 of the territory. I don't know whether these units were called the
12 Territorial Defence or not. I know that the Crisis Staff was in charge
13 headed by --
14 Q. Mr. Petkovic, we're trying to finish your testimony today so that
15 you don't have to stay in The Hague for an extended period. If you can
16 please answer the questions just as I've asked them.
17 Now, at least as of April 14th, 1992, would you agree that it
18 appears that Ostojic was able to communicate news about Foca to the
19 outside world?
20 A. As far as I know, he was not in that position. Telephone lines
21 were down until the moment somebody came to help us establish
22 communication with Tornik in Serbia, so we could at least communicate
23 with the command on Velecevo which was headquartered in the former female
25 Q. Around 14 April 1992, were you personally meeting with Velibor
1 Ostojic for -- with any frequency?
2 A. I was always in the Crisis Staff. Velibor Ostojic was not a
3 member but he was always there. Vojislav Maksimovic and Petko Cancar
4 were also not a member of the Crisis Staff but they attended the
5 meetings. I was often there as well and I often saw him. He didn't
6 spend much time in Foca; however, I even doubt that he was there until
7 the date that you've mentioned.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, could I seek clarification.
9 Witness, you said as far as you knew, Velibor Ostojic was not in
10 that position when asked about the 14th of April, 1992, and his contact
11 with the media at that moment. What did you refer to where you said he
12 was not in that position? What position did you mean?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether we understood
14 each other well. He was not a member of the Crisis Staff. In the former
15 government he was the minister of information. I don't know whether he
16 was able to send information and how he was able to do that if that was
17 at all possible, but I don't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're not suggesting that he was not in Foca.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure he was in Foca, but for a
20 very brief period of time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
22 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution
23 tenders 03579 into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3579 receives number P6810, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President. Can the Prosecution
4 please have Exhibit P2824.
5 Q. Mr. Petkovic, on your screen you will soon see a communication
6 from Velibor Ostojic to the Serbian government in Sarajevo dated 30 April
7 1992. I'm going to ask you to look, it's a bit hard to see, at the top
8 upper left corner of the page, first page.
9 Now, are you able to see there the words "fax sender"?
10 A. No. I don't see that.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure that she understood
12 the witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us whether you see in the fax
14 header the words "fax sender" followed by what seems to be a telephone
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you. And if we can -- yes.
18 Q. I'd like to ask you to take a moment to read the contents of the
19 document. Are you able to see that on the screen in front of you?
20 A. The Territorial Defence of the Foca is still making every effort
21 in the Serbian Territorial Defence -- yes.
22 Q. Sorry, you don't need to read it out loud. I just want to make
23 sure you're able to read it to yourself.
24 Were you able to read the document?
25 A. I've read it.
1 Q. Now, as of April 30th, 1992, it's correct that Ostojic is able to
2 communicate to authorities outside of Foca about the conditions in Foca;
3 is that correct?
4 A. I'm not sure that communications were possible. There was no
5 electricity and then electricity came from Montenegro. But I'm not sure
6 that any communication was possible before the radio station was -- or
7 radio set was installed.
8 Montenegro is very close to Foca. I don't know whether they
9 could send reports from there, whether it was possible to get to
10 Montenegro -- it was possible to get there within one hour. And once
11 they were there whether they were able to send reports from there, it is
13 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 15186.
14 Q. The document that will soon be on your screen is a report on
15 activities relating to organising judiciary institutions in Foca
16 municipality. The document itself is not dated but I'll refer you to the
17 first sentence of the document. It states:
18 "The working group of the Ministry of Justice visited Foca on 24
19 and 25 June 1992 and held a meeting with the president of the executive
20 board of Foca Municipal Assembly."
21 I'll stop there. Now, it appears from this report that
22 government representatives were able to travel to Foca and report back to
23 civilian authorities; isn't that correct?
24 A. I know nothing about that.
25 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the Prosecution tenders this
1 document into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 15186 receives number P6811, Your
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
6 MS. MacGREGOR:
7 Q. During your testimony --
8 A. Perhaps on the 24th or on the 25th of June, they could get to
9 Foca via Montenegro. I'm sure of that. But I don't know whether they
10 ever used that possibility, whether they ever came via that route.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 During your testimony today around temporary transcript pages 28
13 and 29, you discussed an event where Pero Elez seized a truck trailer
14 with electronics. Do you remember discussing that event today? Do you
15 remember discussing that event?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know the approximate date that that happened, that you
18 witnessed that event?
19 A. That happened sometime at the beginning of April or rather at the
20 end of April or the beginning of May. That was at the very beginning of
21 the war. It must have been in April or May. I can't remember the date.
22 Or sometime before June, perhaps. It was a long time ago so I can't
23 remember the exact date.
24 Q. To your knowledge, at some point did Pero Elez come under the
25 control of Marko Kovac?
1 A. He never obeyed Marko Kovac nor was Marko Kovac able to give him
2 any orders. As far as I know, he was in charge of his own unit until the
3 moment the brigade was set up and until the moment the tactical group was
4 set up and then they all became members of the VRS. They were all
5 incorporated into the VRS.
6 Q. So around what date would you mark that incorporation?
7 A. 28th of June, as far as I can remember, because I was there when
8 the first brigade was established on Preljuca. The tactical group was
9 set up after that.
10 As far as I know, and I don't know much about the command at the
11 time because I was very often absent as I travelled to Serbia and
12 Montenegro to fetch humanitarian aid, I was very often absent from the
13 city, so I am not familiar with the details of the inception of the
14 tactical group. I know that the tactical group was set up and was -- and
15 Komo [phoen] Kamicak [phoen] and Cajnice [phoen] became its members. I'm
16 not sure of all these units but this is more or less what I remember.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: Can the Prosecution please see 65 ter 17405.
18 Q. I've asked for a document to be shown on your screen which is a
19 certificate issued by the RS in Foca municipality in 2008. It's a
20 certificate for Pero Elez establishing participation in the war based on
21 data from official records in the armed forces of RS and of the former
22 SFRY. The date range which you can see on the first line of the list, if
23 you will, the date range is 6 April 1992 to December 10, 1992; correct?
24 Do you see that date range?
25 A. I can see the date. Many combatants were -- approved their
1 military status as of the very beginning of the war. That's what was
2 agreed as a matter of a convenience. I'm not surprised that Pero Elez
3 also was among those whose participation in the war was recorded as of
4 the very beginning of the war.
5 Q. Are you aware that 10 December is the date when Pero Elez fatally
6 wounded himself?
7 A. I've heard of that.
8 MS. MacGREGOR: The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 17405 into
9 evidence, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 17405 receives number P6812, Your
13 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
14 MS. MacGREGOR: And the document no longer is needed.
15 Q. Mr. Petkovic, what was your role, if any, in the SDS leadership
16 in Foca?
17 A. I was an SDS member from day one. I didn't play any significant
18 role. Since as a former athlete I knew a lot of people in Serbia and
19 Montenegro, so I was asked to help the people with humanitarian aid. And
20 when I say "the people," I mean Bosniaks, Muslims, and Croats. My role
21 was to help them survive the hardships of the war, which is why I spent
22 most of the time travelling for supplies and humanitarian aid in Serbia
23 and Montenegro.
24 As a result my record is 19 months in the war, that's what has
25 been recorded under my name, as opposed to Pero Elez who was in the war
1 from day one. There was a time when I had work obligation as a full-time
2 professor at the school of medicine and dentistry.
3 Q. Again, I please ask you to listen to the questions asked and just
4 answer them so that we can keep on top of time.
5 Were you a member of the Foca Crisis Staff?
6 A. No.
7 Q. We briefly talked earlier about Ostojic, Cancar, Maksimovic, and
8 Stanic. Now, these individuals, they attended meetings at your apartment
9 in early 1992; is that correct?
10 A. I don't know whether that was a meeting of the Crisis Staff. I
11 was friends with Maksimovic which is why I attended such meetings on
12 several occasions, but I was never a member of the Crisis Staff.
13 Q. My question was whether those individuals attended meetings at
14 your apartment. Is that correct?
15 A. I'm a bit hard of hearing. Could you please speak up.
16 Q. Sure. You can also adjust the volume on your headsets.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could the witness be assisted in doing so.
18 MS. MacGREGOR:
19 Q. Did Maksimovic, Ostojic, Cancar, and Stanic attend meetings at
20 your apartment in Foca in early 1992?
21 A. Maksimovic and Ostojic were refugees. They did come to my
22 apartment, but not to any meetings. I was friends with Stanic who also
23 visited me and vice versa. We were house friends, that was all. I don't
24 understand what meetings you have in mind. We visited each other to have
25 a drink together, to have a bite to eat, to have dinner or lunch
2 Q. Mr. Petkovic, I will be more specific. I'm not talking about
3 friendly visits where you would have a drink or beer or dinner. What I'm
4 talking about is meetings specifically to talk about political organising
5 of Serbs in Foca.
6 Now, the reason I ask you this is that this Chamber has received
7 evidence that these individuals attended meetings at your apartment to
8 discuss such organisation.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: And I refer the Chamber and the Defence to
10 Exhibit P982, paragraph 2.
11 Q. So do you believe that that evidence is incorrect?
12 A. This evidence is completely incorrect. I'm not sure that
13 Velibor Ostojic ever came to visit me in my apartment.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, in your statement at paragraph 5 you talk about
15 Velecevo women's prison. You state that it was empty by April 20th,
16 1992, when the Crisis Staff moved in. Now you know that because you went
17 to that prison around that time; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. The Chamber has also heard evidence that you were at Velecevo
20 late on the evening of 26 April 1992 along with Ostojic, Stanic,
21 Maksimovic, Cancar, Milan Ivancic, and Stojan Blagojevic.
22 MS. MacGREGOR: And, Your Honours, the evidence I'm referring to,
23 I can give you the citation in private session because it could reveal
24 the identity of a protected witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first hear the answer of the witness.
1 MS. MacGREGOR:
2 Q. The question is were you there, in fact, on that evening with
3 those individuals, Mr. Petkovic?
4 A. I was often there, but I don't know whether I was there on that
5 evening. I can't answer. I can't remember the date. When you mentioned
6 Ivancic, I remember that he was an officer. I don't know where he had
7 come from. He spent some time in Foca but not very long. He had a rank
8 but I don't know what rank, because I really didn't know much about those
9 military matters. I'd never got involved in any of that.
10 Q. What was the reason that you would often go to the Velecevo
11 prison, excuse me, specifically in April 1992?
12 A. I was appointed to work in accordance with the function I had. I
13 was the commander of the -- command of the headquarters. I was supposed
14 to be there when I was not travelling on business and the business was
15 fetching humanitarian aid. And since I was friends with Maksimovic and
16 Miroslav Stanic before the war, obviously I was in touch with those
17 friends. Maksimovic didn't have a vehicle. That's -- he often asked me
18 to drive him from the city to Velecevo. Maksimovic even lived in my
19 apartment for awhile, so I was appointed as commander of the headquarters
21 Q. Please listen specifically to my question. My understanding is
22 that your appointment didn't occur until end of June or beginning of
23 July. So I'm specifically talking about April 1992. During that period,
24 other than acting as a driver to Maksimovic to take him to Velecevo, did
25 you have any other duties or responsibilities that required you to be at
2 A. I had no duties or responsibilities at all.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours. I
4 would like to point to paragraph 2 in the witness's statement which is
5 relative to the period of time mentioned by the Prosecutor. It says here
6 what was his duties given to him by the Crisis Staff when the conflict
7 broke out.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What's the objection now?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness was
10 misquoted. I believe that the witness said that he was engaged at the
11 beginning of June to fetch humanitarian aid by the military, and before
12 that that same duty was given to him by the Crisis Staff, and that was at
13 the beginning of the conflict.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me page and line exactly where the
15 misquote is? Where in the question is the witness quoted?
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, on page 41, lines
17 12 through 17.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. MacGregor was not quoting the witness
19 there. By the way, if that's your objection, the appropriate way of
20 doing it is to say, objection, page so and so line that and that
21 misrepresents the evidence.
22 That's the way of doing it rather than to give the long
24 But did you intend to quote? I do not see a quote,
25 Ms. MacGregor.
1 MS. MacGREGOR: No, I was trying to focus in the witness's
2 evidence on a specific date range.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MS. MacGREGOR: And I believe when he was referring to his
5 appointment, he was bringing it later in time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's proceed. Perhaps you, keeping in the
7 back of your mind what Mr. Stojanovic's concerns are, that you put the
8 question or a similar question to the witness again.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have a question for the witness.
10 Mr. Witness, again, at page 41, line 15 to 16, Madam MacGregor
11 asks you:
12 "... did you have any other duties or responsibilities that
13 required you to be at Velecevo?"
14 Your answer is:
15 "I had no duties or responsibilities at all."
16 But at page 41, line 3, you say:
17 "I was appointed to work in accordance with the function I had.
18 I was the commander of the -- command of the headquarters. I was
19 supposed to be there," at the Velecevo prison, by the way, "when I was
20 not travelling on business."
21 Now, what were you supposed to be doing there at Velecevo when
22 you were not travelling on business which contradicts what you said, you
23 had no responsibilities there? Did you hear my question?
24 JUDGE ORIE: He's just waiting for the translation.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain. Ms. Prosecutor
1 asked me whether I participated in the Crisis Staff when I --
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: No. I'm sorry, sir. I'm sorry, sir.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my --
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm going to stop you. Sorry, sir. Sorry. You
5 said you were supposed to be there when you were not travelling on
6 business. You also say you had no duties or responsibilities at all.
7 Which of the two is correct?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not tasked with anything by
9 the Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff didn't give me any duties or tasks.
10 That's what I meant. My duty was to be the commander of the command
11 administration and my obligation, which was my business, was to fetch
12 humanitarian aid, to fetch supplies. I don't know what you're asking me.
13 We are probably talking on cross purposes. I was not a member of the
14 Crisis Staff. I don't know what I was supposed to be doing there.
15 From the Crisis Staff, a message came to me via other people as
16 to what I was supposed to be doing and where.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Again, I ask you to listen to my question. I
18 haven't asked you anything about the Crisis Staff. You say and you were
19 supposed to be at the Velecevo prison, female prison when you were not
20 travelling on business. And I'm saying, if you were supposed to be
21 there, what were you supposed to be doing there? Just all I'm asking.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just supposed to report there,
23 that's all. I was not even supposed to be there. I was just there to
24 report on my humanitarian work on my comings and goings to that end.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Report to who?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I reported to the chief of
2 logistics, Mr. Zelovic, because he was the one with whom I communicated
3 the most.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: You may proceed, Madam MacGregor.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I have nevertheless one or two follow-up questions.
6 Chief of logistics of what exactly, Witness? Could you please --
7 you said you reported to the chief of logistics. Chief of logistics of
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was chief of logistics in
10 charge of the warehouse where food and clothes were stored and from which
11 it was distributed to the population. I used to call him "chief."
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was he a chief of logistics of a unit or
13 of the Crisis Staff or -- I mean you describe what he did.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He also received tasks from the
15 Crisis Staff to maintain this warehouse. He was in charge of it and we
16 used to call him either administrator or chief or whatever.
17 JUDGE ORIE: He was appointed chief of logistics as you told us
18 by the Crisis Staff. Is that what you say?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, probably is not --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, but he probably was.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you emphasised that you had -- you had
23 not received any tasks by the Crisis Staff. Paragraph 2 of your
24 statement reads: "At the beginning of the conflict, the Crisis Staff
25 tasked me with activities concerning ..." and then you explain what it
1 is. A minute ago you say, "He was also tasked ..." and then you are
2 referring to the chief of logistics.
3 Do you have any explanation as to why in your statement we read
4 that you were given this task by the Crisis Staff and where you, in your
5 testimony today, you deny that you received tasks from the Crisis Staff?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I received from all those
7 from the Crisis Staff, according to the situation. I cannot exactly
8 explain to you how it worked. I would deliver humanitarian aid to the
9 warden and that was part of a store house. He was definitely part of the
10 Crisis Staff and the Crisis Staff was in charge. They would tell me
11 where to go to seek assistance and obtain supplies for the people.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, that leads me to the following question.
13 You emphasised today during your testimony again and again that you were
14 tasked with providing humanitarian aid to the people, to the population.
15 In your statement, we read that you are tasked with activities concerning
16 the supply of equipment and food to the population and units in Foca.
17 Did you also supply food and equipment to units?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever I received from the
19 companies that I asked them to deliver, I received that and it was put in
20 a joint store house that we shared with the Red Cross and from there they
21 distributed it to the entire Foca population and probably they did the
22 same for the units because the units also needed food and clothing.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What they probably did is -- in your
24 statement we read that you were "tasked with the supply of equipment and
25 food to the population and units." If that's your explanation that
1 probably this happened by others, then I have no follow-up questions for
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Then I have a follow-up question.
4 Units of what institution?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were allegedly units that
6 had been mobilised by the Crisis Staff to defend and liberate the town.
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: And what institution did those units belong to?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they belonged to the town
9 itself, the Crisis Staff. I don't know how to put it. Somebody called
10 them, whether it was the town Territorial Defence or whoever, I'm not
11 exactly sure and I haven't sufficient knowledge about that.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm just not able to understand. Were they
13 members of the Territorial Defence or were they units of the Crisis
14 Staff? You say you don't know. They belonged to the Crisis Staff and
15 then you say Territorial Defence.
16 Can you repeat your answer, please?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you understand me.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's why I'm asking you the question.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The units that were engaged at the
20 time, as well as combatants that were engaged on the front line, received
21 food and equipment. The same was done for the population of the town.
22 So for everyone.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Stop there, stop there. These combatants, what
24 institution did they belong to, these units of combatants?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, how shall I put it, they
1 belonged to the entire town, and the Crisis Staff was in command of them.
2 I don't know how to explain to you to whom they belonged.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, could you tell us, we are about to
5 take a break, how much time you'd need after the break?
6 MS. MacGREGOR: I actually have two very discreet questions
7 related to Velecevo prison and then I'm finished. It may make sense to
8 do them before the break.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But, of course, that needs the consent of the -- at
10 least I want to consult the Defence. Two more questions, Mr. Stojanovic,
11 before the break, would that -- otherwise we take the break now?
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's agreeable.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Ms. MacGregor, two questions.
15 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. The witness who provided evidence about Velecevo prison also
17 stated that you were in a room -- excuse me, that there were -- that the
18 prison was equipped to communicate with other posts with a Motorola and
19 with telephone lines.
20 Did you observe those devices there when you went to the prison?
21 A. No. I know that not even some of the combatants -- combatants
22 didn't have Motorola radios and there was no way that they had them in
23 the prison. Even all telephone lines were down as a result of power
25 Q. My question was only if you observed them and your answer was
1 that you didn't.
2 My final question --
3 A. No.
4 Q. -- the chief of logistics that you referred to, Zelovic, was his
5 first name Cedo?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. MacGREGOR: The Prosecution has no further questions, Your
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.
10 We'll take a break.
11 Could you give an estimate, Mr. Stojanovic, as to how much time
12 you'd need after the break?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Up to ten minutes, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we take a break but not until after the
15 witness has left the courtroom.
16 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now, Witness.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, you offered to give us in private
22 session a reference. The Chamber can do without at this moment.
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: If it is -- if you would just give a P number of --
25 I mean, P numbers are not confidential, are they, and then we always have
1 an opportunity to check it. As I did with the previous one, I can check
2 it right away. Yes.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: Shall I do that now, Your Honour?
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you give the P number then that's -- we don't
5 need anything else.
6 MS. MacGREGOR: The exhibit number is P2935.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Then Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few questions, Your
11 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. Sir, to an answer by the Prosecutor, you -- to a question by the
13 Prosecutor, you talked about the prison at Velecevo. Until when was the
14 Crisis Staff accommodated in the facility of the female prison at
16 A. The Crisis Staff arrived there around the 15th or 20th of April.
17 It occupied the premises of the former female prison which was empty.
18 There was just a janitor there or a couple of janitors who maintained the
19 premises. And I know that the Crisis Staff was there until the moment
20 the brigades were established and until the moment the artillery tactical
21 group was set up. And after that, I don't know what happened, how much
22 longer they remained in that facility.
23 Q. Thank you. You were asked whether you saw a Motorola. Do you
24 know anything about the range of that radio set which is known under the
25 name Motorola?
1 A. Approximately 500 to a thousand metre, I believe, but I don't
2 know. I'm sure that there weren't any there at the moment. Telephone
3 lines were down. The only telephone lines that were working were those
4 within the city network. We did not have any connection with the outside
5 world. If somebody wanted to communicate with anybody, they had to go to
6 Montenegro in order to talk to their families who had fled the area.
7 Q. Were roads passable during that period of time in May, June, July
8 1992? Could you take a road from Foca across the territory of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina to Pale or Sokolac?
10 A. No. Only from Montenegro could you do that, either across
11 Plevlje or Scepan Polje. That was the only way to reach Foca.
12 Q. And now let me ask you why one could not take the main road
13 towards Pale and Sarajevo?
14 A. Muslim units had blocked the road towards Gorazde and towards
15 Kalinovik and Sarajevo. Muslim units had barricaded the rest of the
16 town. Our units were on the borders of those territories.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Petkovic. I have no further questions for you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you. I
19 apologise, Judge Fluegge has one or more questions for you.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a question with respect to your background.
22 In paragraph 1 of your statement, you tell us that you were a teacher at
23 the secondary school centre in Foca. What was your specialty? What did
24 you teach?
25 A. I was a physical training teacher until 1993 when I moved to the
1 medical faculty, and I worked there for 13 years until I retired.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What did you teach there at the faculty of dental
4 A. The same subject, physical training, physical education.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, Ms. MacGregor?
7 Mr. Petkovic, this concludes your evidence. Thank you for having
8 come to The Hague and for having answered all the questions whether put
9 to you by the Prosecution or by the Defence or by the Bench. I wish you
10 a safe return home again.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, the Chamber received meanwhile a list of
15 associated exhibits for Witness Sarenac. If my math is okay, I see still
16 22 items on that list. Are there any objections from the Prosecution?
17 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. If I may, and thank
18 you for this opportunity, the Prosecution would like to just provide a
19 brief response and maybe clarify the question that Your Honours just had
20 with respect to the exhibits.
21 May I proceed?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
23 MR. WEBER: On 24 September, 2014, the Defence filed an urgent
24 motion seeking to add 22 documents to its 65 ter exhibit list. The
25 documents at issue relate to the statement of Witness Desimir Sarenac.
1 The motion was filed during the testimony of the witness.
2 As a preliminary matter, the Prosecution notes that 20, not 22,
3 of the 65 ter numbers listed in annex A of the motion are not referenced
4 as part of the Defence Exhibit list, the exceptions being
5 65 ter number 1D04399, which is already a part of the Defence 65 ter
6 exhibit list, and 65 ter 1D03057 which is described on the Defence
7 exhibit list as a different set of materials relating to a photo
9 It is unclear to the Prosecution what exhibit -- it was unclear
10 to the Prosecution what exhibit is properly associated to the 65 ter
11 number due to the use of the same 65 ter number for a 1st Smbr
12 information report dated 13 August 1993.
13 Currently we also do not know the content of the photo analysis
14 and whether it is intended for use by the Defence. The parties did
15 discuss this and for the time being the parties have agreed to use
16 65 ter number 1D03057 for the 13 August 1993 1st Smbr information report
17 and will further discuss the fate of the photo analysis.
18 With this being said, the Defence submits in paragraph 5 of the
19 motion that there is good cause to add the documents. The Prosecution
20 disagrees. The motion was not filed in the timely manner and the
21 documents were previously part of the witness's Karadzic materials.
22 As such, it is the Prosecution's position that the Defence should
23 have included the documents on its exhibit list when it decided to list
24 Mr. Sarenac as a witness or at the very least promptly sought their
25 addition once the Defence completed the current statement of the witness
1 on 27 July 2014.
2 Notwithstanding what we submit to be a lack of good cause, the
3 Prosecution does not oppose the addition of the remaining 21 documents
4 due to the minimal prejudice this caused to us during our preparations
5 considering the length and amount of material and the time before the
6 testimony of the witness.
7 Should the Chamber allow the addition of the documents, the
8 Prosecution also discussed this with the Defence and we would appreciate
9 it if the Defence could file a written submission similar to the one that
10 they did for Witness GRM246. This would allow the Prosecution to
11 properly articulate its views on each of the respective materials in a
12 written response.
13 Thank you, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you still want to make up your mind as far as
15 admission is concerned if we would allow the documents to be added to the
16 65 ter list?
17 MR. WEBER: Yes, but more importantly articulate our specific
18 views on the documents in a written submission, I think. Due to the
19 nature of the documents, we would like to approach that in writing.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then in view of a decision whether or not
21 to admit. Yes. One second, please.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could I hear the position of the Defence
24 in relation to what Mr. Weber just raised.
25 MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I did discuss with my
1 learned friend just before this session on all these topics, and I
2 actually had different understanding that they do not oppose to the
3 admission of the documents but -- actually to the adding the documents to
4 the 65 ter list, and they don't -- do want our written submission
5 regarding the admission of the documents and we are ready to do that if,
6 of course, the documents are added on our 65 ter list.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Mr. Weber, I take it that this doesn't need any further response.
9 MR. WEBER: No, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the Chamber grants the request to add the
13 documents to the 65 ter list. I'll not list them all because the next
14 step is that you're invited to make a written submission so that
15 Mr. Weber will have an opportunity to respond to that before the Chamber
16 decides on admission and it will become clear from that list what was
17 added to the 65 ter list and what was granted leave.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's the other way around, but let's be very
21 Mr. Weber is smiling as well so it's -- he's very practical.
22 Could we then receive that, one would say, within a week?
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, it's feasible.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then leave is granted and we are waiting for
25 the submissions by the -- written submissions by the Defence in relation
1 to the associated exhibits for the witness statement of Mr. Sarenac.
2 Any other matter? I'm not aware of any.
3 This means that we adjourn. We have a non-sitting week next
4 week. We are not sitting tomorrow, which means that we will resume on
5 Monday, the 13th of October, 9.30 in the morning, and I think we will be
6 back in courtroom I. We stand adjourned.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.45 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of
9 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.