Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26595

 1                           Monday, 13 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             After a non-sitting week, we'll resume which case,

 7     Madam Registrar?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

11             I'd like to deal briefly with a few matters -- no, perhaps I

12     leave them.  None of them are really urgent.  We leave them until after

13     we've heard the testimony of the first witness, the first witness who

14     will appear before this Court through videolink.

15             Mr. Stojanovic -- Madam Registrar, is the videolink functioning

16     properly?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it's confirmed to me that videolink

18     is functioning properly.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's establish whether the -- at this moment I

20     can see the representative of the Registry seated next to what I expect

21     to be today's witness.

22                           [The witness entered court via videolink]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you confirm that you can hear us and that you

24     can see us?

25             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, yes.  We have the

Page 26596

 1     connection running.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can you see us?  Can you hear us?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is some noise, a buzzing

 4     noise.  It's not perfect.  I have this buzzing.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way to resolve that?  Is it a local

 6     problem on the other side of the videolink?

 7             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, we would need a

 8     couple of minutes to finish the tests.  We didn't have time to finish

 9     them.  With your permission, could we please take five minutes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll take a short break of five minutes

11     so that the audio is also functioning well without any disturbance.

12             The Chamber would like to be informed once the tests have been

13     done.

14             We take a break of most likely not more than five minutes.

15                           --- Break taken at 9.43 a.m.

16                           [The witness stands down via videolink]

17                           --- On resuming at 9.55 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber understands that the technical problems

19     have been resolved.  Let's give it another try.

20             Could we seek, first of all, confirmation from the other side of

21     the videolink that both video and audio are working well.

22             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour, thank you.  The

23     connection has improved and we can continue.  I apologise for the delay.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25                           [The witness takes the stand via videolink]


Page 26597

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then could we hear from the representative of the

 2     Registry who else are present in the room -- in the videolink room?

 3             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink]  Your Honours, this is me,

 4     Anna Vertelinkova, representative of the Registry.  The witness is with

 5     me and a member of the ITSS.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you so much for that.

 7             Then, Witness, I take it that you're Mr. Gagovic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

10     make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth,

11     and nothing but the truth.  The text is now handed out to you.  If it

12     doesn't cause you any physical problems, could I invite you to stand and

13     make that solemn declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  MILADIN GAGOVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           [The witness testified via videolink]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Gagovic.  Please be seated.

20             Mr. Gagovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

21     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

22             Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

24                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gagovic.

Page 26598

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   I would kindly ask you to give us your full name, slowly, for the

 3     record.

 4        A.   My name is Miladin Gagovic.

 5        Q.   Mr. Gagovic, have you given a statement, a written statement, to

 6     the Defence team of General Mladic in response to the questions put to

 7     you by the investigators?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

10     that we have document 65 ter 1D01670 in e-court.

11        Q.   Mr. Gagovic, in front of you, I suppose you can see the statement

12     that we also can see here in the courtroom.  I'm asking you if the

13     signature on the cover page of the statement is yours and if the

14     information contained on this page is accurate?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at the

18     last page of this document.

19        Q.   We also can see it here in front of us in e-court.  Is this also

20     your signature and is this the date written on the statement written by

21     your hand?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, before we continue, the Chamber does

25     not have the document on its screen in e-court.  There we are.  Yes.  It

Page 26599

 1     has been fixed.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Gagovic, during proofing for your testimony, you indicated

 5     that there were two typos in your statement.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 4, and I

 7     would like the court services to zoom in on paragraph 4 in the witness

 8     statements in the e-court.

 9        Q.   You said that the word "evezelje [phoen]" should be -- or,

10     rather, "vozulja" should be eliminated; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, it is.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] This should be moved away.

13        Q.   You also told me that in paragraph 14 of your statement, please

14     pay attention to that.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And also in e-court can we zoom

16     in on paragraph 14.

17        Q.   The toponym "Kace" is mentioned, and you told me that the name of

18     that geographic location is Kacelj, so LJ should be added to the end of

19     that word; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   Now that we have made those two corrections for the record, I

22     would like to ask you whether if I were to ask you the same questions

23     today would you adhere to your statement including the two corrections

24     that we have made?  Did you provide your statement to the best of your

25     knowledge and recollection?

Page 26600

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Does this statement represent the true account of what you know

 3     about the events that you testify about?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 7     tender Miladin Gagovic's statement into evidence.  At the moment, it is

 8     65 ter 1D01670.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we do so, Witness, would you give the

10     same answers as far as the substance is concerned -- no, I think you've

11     answered that question already.

12             Any objections?

13             MR. JEREMY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No objections.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

15             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1670 receives number D682,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D682 is admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

21     would like to read a summary of Miladin Gagovic's statement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Miladin Gagovic is an

24     All People's Defence teacher by profession.  Before the war broke out, he

25     was appointed as the commander of a company in the part of the town known

Page 26601

 1     as Dugo Polje by the Crisis Staff in Foca.  Donja Polje.  He had 80 men

 2     under him in his unit.

 3             The conflict in Foca broke out in April 1992.  The fighting

 4     lasted some ten days.  The Serb established power in Foca and the units

 5     which had participated in the fighting were organised according to the

 6     principle of Territorial Defence.  The VRS did not exist in Foca at the

 7     time.

 8             The command chain went via the Crisis Staff up to June 1992, when

 9     the 1st Foca Brigade was established in Previla.  That unit became an

10     element of the Foca tactical group, headed and commanded by Marko Kovac.

11     He was -- the witness was the company commander in this unit up to

12     14 September 1992, when he was wounded and referred for treatment.

13             From December 1992, he was the assistant for logistics in the

14     battalion, and then from 1994 he was in charge of personnel affairs in

15     the Foca Brigade.

16             He will testify about the fact that the Muslim population started

17     leaving Foca even before the conflict started.  They went wherever they

18     could and most of them left towards Gorazde, particularly after the

19     fighting started in the town of Foca.

20             Finally, the witness speaks about the front line which was set up

21     facing Gorazde and claims that in late May 1992 they did not send reports

22     to the superior command and that the communications with the command went

23     by courier.

24             His unit never received either an oral or written order to act

25     against Muslim civilians to expel them or to do anything illegal in their

Page 26602

 1     actions.

 2             This was a short summary of this witness's statement, and with

 3     your leave, Your Honours, I would have just a couple of questions for the

 4     witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Gagovic, in your statement in paragraph 9, you mention the

 8     establishment of a tactical group, the establish of the 1st Foca Brigade.

 9     You were appointed a company commander at that time.  Could you please

10     tell the Trial Chamber when that happened and where?

11        A.   The 1st Foca Brigade was established in the Previla sector in

12     late June, on the 27th or 28th of June.  That's when I was appointed a

13     company commander.

14        Q.   When you say in the Previla sector, could you please tell the

15     Trial Chamber where the Previla sector is?

16        A.   Previla is in the territory of the Foca municipality, some

17     25 kilometres away from Foca in the direction of Jabuka commune.

18        Q.   Up to then, up to that date, i.e. the 28th of June 1992, was

19     there an organised military structure in Foca as part of the

20     Army of Republika Srpska?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Before that date as the company commander in Donje Polje, who did

23     you receive your direct orders from?

24        A.   I received my orders from the Crisis Staff of Foca.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 26603

 1             I would kindly ask you in light of paragraph 12 of your statement

 2     to tell us what happened when you returned to your unit after the

 3     treatment?  That was in 1993, 1994 -- 1994.  Where was the command of the

 4     Foca Brigade then?  Where were you physically located?

 5        A.   The command was in the Foca sector in a place known as Velecevo.

 6        Q.   Please give us some more details about the facility.  What was it

 7     used for before the war?

 8        A.   The facility was a prison before the war.  As far as I remember,

 9     it was for women only.  That's where the brigade command was located

10     during the war.

11        Q.   What were your specific tasks as the officer in charge of

12     personnel affairs in the brigade?

13        A.   My duty was to be in charge of personnel affairs, to set up

14     units, to send people for treatment, to replace them with other people.

15     Those were my regular duties.  I also sent reports on the strength of the

16     unit and their presence in various parts of the battle-field.

17        Q.   In your statement, Mr. Gagovic, you said that Muslims started

18     leaving Foca even before the conflict broke out and especially after the

19     conflict broke out and during the skirmishes in the town of Foca.  How do

20     you know that?  How do you know that Muslims started leaving even before

21     the war?

22        A.   I stand by my statement.  I lived in Foca before the war started.

23     My next door neighbours were Muslims.  They left and they -- as they were

24     leaving they asked me, What are you waiting for?  Why did you not leave

25     already?  After they left, I sent my family to Montenegro as well.

Page 26604

 1        Q.   What about the other inhabitants of Foca, those of Serb

 2     ethnicity?  Did they act in the same way as you?  Did they also send

 3     their families away from the combat zone?

 4        A.   I believe so.  A lot of people left Donje Polje because

 5     Donje Polje was where the most Muslims resided in Foca.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Gagovic.  I have no further questions for you at

 7     the moment.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for the

 9     time given to me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             I have one very simple question, a line which I just do not

12     understand.  It may be a translation issue.  Paragraph 14, the first

13     sentence reads:

14             "The line Borovac-Hrinci," et cetera, "was established as a

15     separation and defence line."

16             Then the second sentence reads:

17             "In late may 1992, the line Osanica," et cetera, "was

18     established."

19             And the third sentence reads, "One they we withdrew."  "Day"

20     being spelled as t-h-e-y.  I've got no idea whether there is any mistake.

21     Whether the witness could tell us again what the third sentence means

22     which apparently in the original starts with "jedan dan."

23             Witness, could you tell us what that short sentence, starting

24     with the word "jedan" means?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day we were attacked on the

Page 26605

 1     line Borovac-Hrncici-Gorca voda by Muslim forces from the direction of

 2     Gorazde.  We suffered losses, we had dead and wounded, and we withdrew to

 3     another line.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a technical problem Mr. Stojanovic?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have not

 6     received interpretation from the moment the witness started speaking.

 7     Neither the General nor I received any interpretation.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean started speaking in the response to my

 9     question or during the last ten minutes entirely?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We heard you, we heard the

11     interpretation of your words, but we did not hear the witness's answer in

12     B/C/S.  There was no sound coming from that side.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'll briefly read what was translated to us

14     because it goes well beyond my question, as a matter of fact.  The

15     witness, and he should carefully listen whether it reflects his words,

16     said:

17             "One day we were attacked on the line Borovac-Hrncici-Gorca voda

18     by the Muslim forces from the direction of Gorazde.  We suffered losses,

19     we had dead and wounded, and we withdrew to another line."

20             And what I also heard but which seems not to appear -- no, I

21     think "one day" is the clue to the answer.

22             And, Mr. Stojanovic, I asked just to explain the day and I now

23     gained the impression, but you are better able to verify that, this where

24     "day" is spelled at t-h-e-y, that it should have been spelled as d-a-y,

25     so "one day we withdrew."


Page 26606

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think the witness has now confirmed this.

 3             This being clarified, Mr. Jeremy, are you ready to start your

 4     cross-examination?

 5             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll first tell the witness by whom he'll be

 7     cross-examined.

 8             MR. JEREMY:  Well, Your Honours, before that, I would say that on

 9     the basis of the -- the statement and on the basis of the direct

10     testimony that I've heard today, I don't have any cross-examination.  I

11     made a time estimate on the basis that the videolink motion filed on the

12     7th of August, 2014, suggested that this witness would have unique

13     evidence on the functioning and organisation of units in Foca,

14     particularly of the tactical group and its relationship towards the

15     Crisis Staff, VRS, and General Mladic.  On that basis, I reserved some

16     time for cross-examination.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But --

18             MR. JEREMY:  But I've not heard that evidence, so I don't have

19     any cross-examination.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Jeremy.

21             I would have a few questions, Witness.

22                           Questioned by the Court:

23             JUDGE ORIE:  In your statement, you tell us that you were a

24     company commander and that you were appointed as such verbally --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 26607

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Verbally, and I'm referring to paragraph 5 of your

 2     statement.

 3             Now in paragraph 6 of your statement you are referring to the

 4     month of April where armed fighting in Foca related to the take-over of

 5     power and control lasted about ten days.  Were you in any way as a

 6     company commander involved in that fighting, or were those subordinate to

 7     you involved in that fighting?

 8        A.   No.  I provided security for the hospital.  You will find it in

 9     paragraph 4 in my statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that happened in the month of April as

11     well.

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now in paragraph 9 of your statement, and I

14     read it, it says:

15             "It was announced that the Crisis Staff was established, that a

16     tactical group was formed, somewhere in June 1992.  And the

17     1st Foca Brigade was formed at Previla when I was a company commander."

18             The first part of this sentence, "it was announced that the

19     Crisis Staff was established," was that also in June 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I have some difficulties in reconciling

22     that you performed your duty as a company commander in April, appointed

23     by the Crisis Staff, if the Crisis Staff was established only in

24     June 1992.  Do you have an explanation for that?

25        A.   The Crisis Staff had existed when the conflict broke out in the

Page 26608

 1     territory of the municipality, and it was the Crisis Staff that appointed

 2     me as the company commander until June 1992.  And then in June 1992 when

 3     the 1st Brigade was set up, I was also appointed as a company commander

 4     until the moment when I was wounded on the 14th of September, 1992, in

 5     Previla.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the Crisis Staff existed already in

 7     June 1992 when the 1st Foca Brigade was formed because it was operational

 8     already in April.  Is that well understood?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, perhaps it's the language of the

11     statement which confused me, the sequence of events.  The matter is clear

12     to me now.

13             Have the questions by the Bench, Mr. Stojanovic, triggered any

14     need for further questions?

15             And I should ask you the same, Mr. Jeremy.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy.

18             MR. JEREMY:  No, Your Honours.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions.

20             Mr. Gagovic, this concludes your testimony in this court.  It was

21     pretty short.  At the same time, you should well understand that the

22     evidence you've given is mainly to be found for this Chamber in the

23     statement which was admitted into evidence and which is a statement of

24     several pages.

25             I would like to thank you very much for coming to the videolink


Page 26609

 1     room and for having answered questions that you were put to you by one of

 2     the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We can conclude the videolink.

 5                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is your next witness ready after the

 7     break?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think so, although we were

 9     supposed to check during the break whether he has arrived.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'll use the remaining time for a few

11     matters.

12             The first is that the Prosecution has advised the Chamber that it

13     has received the B/C/S translation for P6748, which is 65 ter 31236,

14     which was MFI'd through Witness Mihajlo Vujasin on the 16th

15     of September, 2014, pending translation.  This is all to be found on

16     transcript page 25650.  The translation has be received and is uploaded

17     into e-court under doc ID M000-8567-BCST.

18             If there are no objections from the Defence, the Chamber will

19     instruct the Court Officer to attach the translation and that P6748 is

20     now admitted into evidence.

21             If there are any problems, Mr. Stojanovic, within 48 hours you

22     can revisit the matter if there is any need to do that.

23             Then I'd briefly deal with the documents which were MFI'd during

24     the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic.

25             During the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic, two documents were

Page 26610

 1     marked for identification:  P6660, an excerpt from the transcript from

 2     the 114th Session of the BiH Presidency; and D557, the Islamic

 3     declaration by Alija Izetbegovic.

 4             Through an informal communication, the Chamber was informed that

 5     the parties have agreed on a selection to tender under P6660 but that a

 6     translation remains outstanding.

 7             Any update as far as the translation is concerned?

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President, and good morning.  We received

 9     that just last week and have provided it to the Defence and are just

10     waiting for them to confirm that it's sufficient.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'd like to hear soon from you,

12     Mr. Stojanovic, in relation to the excerpt and its translation of P6660

13     so that the then reduced version can be uploaded.

14             As regards D557, the Chamber was informed that the Defence wanted

15     to tender the entire 77-page document, even though only a small number of

16     pages was discussed with the witness.  The Chamber would like to receive

17     the reasons for tendering the entire document and requests the Defence to

18     make submissions by the 20th of October of this year.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We understand, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then finally another matter in relation to the

21     notebooks of Witness Indjic.

22             The parties have received copies of the notes handed over by

23     Witness Indjic.  The Chamber indicated on the 16th of September, 2014, at

24     transcript page 25574 and -75 that it would await any submissions from

25     the parties thereon.  The Chamber now sets the dead-line of the


Page 26611

 1     27th of October, 2014, for these submissions.

 2             And now there is another matter.  Since we had a late start

 3     anyhow, I'll deal with the last item which is on my agenda, but we have

 4     to move into private session for that purpose.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26612











11  Page 26612 redacted.  Private session.















Page 26613

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber is informed that the next witness will arrive by

11     11.00.  We therefore take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             You're on your feet, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, I am.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning.

18             MR. LUKIC:  While the witness is entering, but before he starts,

19     I would kindly ask for another half an hour.

20                           [The witness enters court]

21             MR. LUKIC:  So we need one hour with this witness.  He was sick

22     the first time -- the first day he came late and I couldn't figure out

23     properly how much time do we need before this morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll see how your examination-in-chief

25     develops and until this moment we have no objections.


Page 26614

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I can tell you --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- I want to go through this witness with the

 4     statement of one of the Prosecutor's Witness, RM081.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  So that's why we'll need more time.  And we'll

 7     probably have to go into private session for that all the time.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'll say one thing about that.  It's usually

 9     not that we go through the statement of another person with a witness,

10     you ask him questions about the same matter, and if there is any

11     inconsistency or any contradiction then, of course, you put to the

12     witness what another witness may have said.  Just in order to have an

13     orderly examination.

14             Apologies, Mr. Jankovic, I take it, for not welcoming you when

15     entering the courtroom and to continue our discussions we had.  Apologies

16     for that.

17             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

18     solemn declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.  May I

19     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  MILENKO JANKOVIC

23                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Jankovic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


Page 26615

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jankovic, you will first be examined by

 2     Mr. Lukic.  You'll find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for

 3     Mr. Mladic.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would kindly ask the

 6     assistance from the usher just for a second to give Mr. Jankovic clean

 7     statement.  Can you check with the Prosecution, please.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jankovic.

10        A.   Good morning.

11        Q.   In front of you you have a statement --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, whatever this witness may have in front

13     of him, it's a good tradition that we first establish his identity.

14             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] I'm trying to establish that,

15     the numbers.  We speeded up a bit this morning, so I don't have the

16     number of this witness's testimony.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could it refresh your memory, Mr., if -- let me see.

18     I do not see even the translation.

19             Would it be 1D01696a, signed witness statement of Jankovic,

20     Milenko, which you would like to have on the screen?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look at it.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And now you could ask the witness for his name.

Page 26616

 1             MR. LUKIC:  When you were not here, Your Honour, I was very

 2     cautious.  Now I'm pretty relaxed because I know I'm under good control.

 3     Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm already the second who reminded you of that.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you please state your full name slowly for the record.

 7        A.   My name is Milenko Jankovic.

 8        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, have you given a statement to the Defence team of

 9     General Mladic?

10        A.   Yes, I have.

11        Q.   On the screen before you, can you see the cover page of the

12     statement and the signature?  Do you recognise it?

13        A.   Yes, I can see it and that's my signature.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

15     pause between questions and answers.  Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, I already asked you to make a pause after my

18     question because it needs to be translated into English, so wait for a

19     few seconds before you start your answer.

20        A.   Very well.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the last page of the same document.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, in front of you, you can see the

23     last page of the statement.  Do you recognise the signature on it?

24        A.   Yes, I do.  That's my signature.

25        Q.   We are now going to make a correction that you drew my attention

Page 26617

 1     to last night, specifically in paragraph 5.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have paragraph 5 of

 3     your statement on the screen.  That's page 2 in the B/C/S and page 3 in

 4     the English.

 5        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, it says here that you joined the Rogatica Company

 6     in May of 1992 and that at the time you assumed the duty of the Rogatica

 7     company commander.  Is that correct or should it be amended?

 8        A.   It should be corrected because I did not have very clear

 9     recollection of all the dates at the time when I gave my statement, so

10     therefore later on after reading certain documents, I came across

11     information that it took place on the 25th of July, 1992, following the

12     death of my relative who was the company commander of the

13     Rogatica Brigade at the time.

14        Q.   What was his name?

15        A.   His name was Milos Jankovic.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What took place, then?  Was it the formation of

17     the company or the appointment of the witness?

18             MR. LUKIC:  Appointment of the witness the day after the killing

19     of the previous commander.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] When was Milos Jankovic killed?

21        A.   Milos Jankovic was killed on the 24th of May --

22        Q.   May or July?

23        A.   Wait a minute.  No, I'm sorry.  July.  I am a bit confused.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us what documents you read

25     which made you aware of the date not being the correct date?

Page 26618

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The documents that I read are the

 2     following:  I had a list of the combatants who got killed in the area of

 3     Rogatica municipality from the outbreak of war until the end of war, and

 4     that refreshed my memory concerning the date when I actually took over

 5     this position.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Have you brought these documents with you to The Hague?

10        A.   Yes, these documents are in my hotel room.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. LUKIC:  For the record I would just read how first three

13     sentences of the statement, paragraph 5, should read now after this

14     correction.  I quote:

15             "This lasted two or three months.  Then a unit was formed, the

16     Rogatica Company, sometime in May 1992.  I joined the company at about

17     this time and took up the duty of the commander of the Rogatica Company

18     on 25th July, 1992."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, just a clarification for me.  The

20     first sentence reads in the original statement:

21             "This lasted two to three months."

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now you read:

24             "This lasted two or three months."

25             MR. LUKIC:  I misread, then.

Page 26619

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay, then the original stands.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  The original stands.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, this morning the OTP asked me

 6     something which I would like to clarify with you.  In paragraph 3 of your

 7     statement, it reads that one such unit was formed in Pjesevica village.

 8     [In English] P-j-e-s-e-v-i-c-a.  Only P-j-e-c-e, no s, c-e.

 9        A.   If I may be of any help.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] So is this the correctly spelled name of the

11     village?

12        A.   No, it should read P-l-j-e-s-e-v-i-c.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Plj, Plj.  Yes.  So P-l-j-e-s-e-v-i-c-a, a.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We quickly move on now because the last spelling on

15     the transcript seems to be the correct one.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on quickly before we have another

18     version.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] After these corrections had been made,

22     Mr. Jankovic, is the information you provided in your statement truthful

23     and accurate?

24        A.   All the information contained in the statement are truthful and

25     accurate.

Page 26620

 1        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

 2     provide the same answers?

 3        A.   I would completely give the same answers.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Now I would move and offer this statement into

 6     evidence, Your Honours.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  No objections, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1696a receives number D683,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

12             Now the transcript started reading that Mr. Jeremy was expressing

13     there were no objections, then apparently this was removed but your words

14     are not reflected at this moment.

15             MR. MacDONALD:  The Prosecution has no objections, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, now you're Mr. Bos, but still not your own

17     identity but you are relatively new, Mr. MacDonald, aren't you.

18             MR. MacDONALD:  Once again, Your Honours, no objection to that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There we are.  It took Mr. Lukic three times to get

20     the right thing on the transcript, so --

21             MR. LUKIC:  It's not only me this morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- therefore it's one-to-one at this moment.

23             Yes, please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would just read the short

25     summary.

Page 26621

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  I take it that you have explained to

 2     the witness the purpose of doing it.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I did.  And I did not have time to distribute

 4     this to the translators, but I will be reading slowly and it's very

 5     short.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The English booth doesn't

 7     have either version.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Milenko Jankovic was born 20th of April, 1961, in

 9     Rogatica.  Witness will testify of arming of Serbs in Rogatica, their

10     self-organisation in villages in Rogatica municipality.  He will explain

11     his knowledge on forming of Rogatica Brigade, its organisation, strength,

12     and activities in its zone of replenishment.  He will testify on Muslim

13     attacks in Rogatica municipality in 1992, particularly from the direction

14     of Kozici, bordering with area controlled by Muslims.

15             He will testify on clashes which occurred in June 1992 when city

16     of Rogatica was partially put under control of Serb forces.  He will

17     explain circumstances of Muslim population leaving Rogatica.  Upon

18     Rogatica Brigade was established, witness was company commander in the

19     same.  He will testify on reporting and relation with other parts of VRS.

20     He will also testify on incidents from indictment related to Rogatica

21     municipality, like about his knowledge about Rasadnik and

22     Veljko Vlahovic school.

23             And that was the end of this short summary.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

25             One very short question about the summary:  Where in the

Page 26622

 1     statement does it say that Serbs were armed in Rogatica?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Paragraph 4.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I read there that trusted people were armed.  Is

 4     that to understand that only Serbs were trusted?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  "Arms were only given to trusted people."

 7             MR. LUKIC:  But among others things Serbs as well, among other

 8     people, or we can clarify with the witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I immediately put that to the witness.  In

10     your statement, Witness, where you say that only trusted people were

11     given arms when arming was organised by the Territorial Defence.  Could

12     you tell us whether trusted people were to be found among all

13     ethnicities?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to explain.  Those were

15     the people who did not drink, who had no criminal past, who were not

16     aggressive, or displayed any --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I was talking about ethnicity.  Were any arms issued

18     to non-Serbs?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say this exactly.  I think

20     that was the case because in my unit I also had Muslim members.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they armed by the Territorial Defence at this

22     moment?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Please proceed.

Page 26623

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, very briefly, who was at the head

 3     of the Territorial Defence and what was his ethnicity?  And I'm talking

 4     about Rogatica.

 5        A.   Are you referring to the Serbian Territorial Defence?

 6        Q.   No, the joint TO.

 7        A.   At the head of the joint TO was Meho Agic or Mehmed Agic.  I

 8     think that was his name.

 9        Q.   For the record, what was his ethnicity?

10        A.   Meho Agic was a Muslim.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you also clarify the apparent

12     existence of two TOs, the Serb TO and a joint TO, and which TO then was

13     distributing weapons?

14             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, you heard the Judge's question.  Can you answer it?

16        A.   Following the division of the municipality into two parts, the

17     Serbian municipality and the Muslim municipality, automatically there was

18     a division in the police force and Territorial Defence.  The Serbian

19     Territorial Defence armed the Serbian population, including a number of

20     Muslims who were attached to the Serbian population.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness also tell us up until what point

22     in time there was the joint TO and when the TO, the Serb TO, was

23     established?

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, you heard the question.  I'm sure that you have

Page 26624

 1     problems with the dates, but can you tell us?

 2        A.   I cannot give you an exact date, but I do know --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are supposed not to tell the witness

 4     already in advance that he may have problems.  He will tell us and there

 5     should be no suggestion --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  He told me.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of that kind.  Yeah.  Okay.  Then he will tell

 8     us.  It should not be part of the question.

 9             Not an exact date.  But you said you do know what?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know the municipal assembly of

11     Rogatica made the unanimous decision on dividing Rogatica municipality

12     into two municipalities.  I really can't remember the date of that

13     meeting, but according to that decision the administration, the police,

14     the Territorial Defence, everything was divided into the Serb

15     municipality on the one side and the Muslim municipality on the other.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you remember the month that this happened, if

17     you don't remember the date?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult for me to remember

19     the month when that happened.  I know that it was in 1992.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether it was in the

22     month of ...

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So you don't know exactly.  Let's not speculate, then.  You

25     mentioned earlier today that you --

Page 26625

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, nevertheless, I'm still confused.

 2     Considerably confused.

 3             Witness, I asked you to explain what were the people trusted

 4     sufficiently to receive weapons.  You said they were those who were not

 5     drinking but also Muslims would receive weapons.  I asked you in relation

 6     to paragraph 4 of your statement, that Muslims were -- whether Muslims

 7     were provided as well, I asked were any arms issued to non-Serbs.  Your

 8     answer was:

 9             "I cannot say this exactly.  I think that was the case because in

10     my unit I also had Muslim members."

11             I asked were they armed by the Territorial Defence at this

12     moment, and you said yes.

13             Was that at that point in time the Serb Territorial Defence which

14     was providing arms to Muslims?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they given directly to the Muslims or were they

17     given to you as a --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not directly to Muslims.  They

19     were given to people who at the time were the organisers of village

20     guards.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And village guards therefore were of mixed

22     ethnicity?  Is that well understood?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were villages where those

24     guards were of mixed ethnicity.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in your unit, as you called it, who were the

Page 26626

 1     Muslims that received weapons through these channels?  Could you give us

 2     names?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two brothers, Ezo and

 4     Himzo Golic who received them.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   You told us about your unit.  What about Muslim members in other

 9     units who received weapons to those celubs [phoen]?

10        A.   Yes, for example in Stojan Petkovic's unit there were also two

11     brothers who were Muslims.  I can't remember their names but their family

12     name was Drago.  They were from the village of Socica, the hamlet of

13     Draguljevici.

14        Q.   Very well.  And now I'm going to ask you.  We'll try not to go

15     into private session because after my question I'm just going to cite the

16     paragraph number of the statement of a protected witness, RM081.

17             MR. LUKIC:  This is the guidance I got from Judge Orie where you

18     want to see the statement on the screen.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's -- you first have to ask the witness

20     about the facts.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If the facts are facts which are subject of any

23     statements by any other witness, then you can put it to the witness after

24     he has answered the questions, but of course the first question is has he

25     read already those statements?


Page 26627

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  He has?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Witness, did you receive any instructions,

 5     specific instructions when you were reading a statement?

 6             And we now move into private session before you answer that

 7     question.

 8             Madam Registrar, can we --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that I --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.  We first move into

11     private session.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26628

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             MR. LUKIC:  May I continue, Your Honour?


Page 26629

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, did Serb policemen decide to walk

 4     out from the joint SUP?  Did they do it of their own will or did that

 5     happen under some other circumstances?

 6        A.   As far as I know, I mentioned that decision on the split of the

 7     municipality into the Muslim and Serbian municipalities, and I also

 8     emphasised that at the same time the Ministry of the Interior was split

 9     as well as the Territorial Defence.  In other words, this was pursuant to

10     a municipal decision on the division of the municipality into two parts.

11     In other words, it was done on a decision not of an -- of anybody's own

12     will.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were there markings on the uniform of the Serb

14     policemen depicting the SDS?

15        A.   No, never.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Still, the decision, and I do not know whether the

18     Prosecution would be in a position to agree with you on when that

19     decision was taken, but we'd very much like to have a better time-frame

20     in order to better evaluate the answers of this witness.

21             So was it a written decision, was it an oral decision, is it

22     documented, et cetera?  That is all relevant factual information this

23     Chamber would need.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, we heard our witness, Mr. Sokolac, and

25     the document was introduced through his testimony.

Page 26630

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then why not put to the witness whether it

 2     would refresh his recollection if -- and the date of that decision was,

 3     if the parties would agree on that.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I really had problems with this witness with the

 5     dates, and I was trying to avoid --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm -- at this moment, I'm seeking whether the

 7     parties can agree on the date of that decision.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] We'll have that decision

 9     shortly if -- my colleague will go out and bring the decision.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well I -- the first thing I would like to have

11     is a date.

12             Prosecution, any suggestion as to the date?

13             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour, through the Defence witness,

14     Mr. Sokolac, there was a report dated the 22 of June, 1992, which

15     referred to the date of the division as the 2nd of May, 1992.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  2nd of May.  Is that also the Defence's position,

17     that the 2nd of May was the date of the division?

18             MR. LUKIC:  That's what I know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  For the record, Your Honour, that is P6773.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And before you do so, Mr. Lukic, just to refer you

24     to the question you asked at page 34, lines 24, it was a leading

25     question:

Page 26631

 1             "Were there markings on the uniform of the Serb policemen

 2     depicting the SDS?"

 3             The correct question is:  Were there any markings, if so, what

 4     were they?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, we heard the number of the

 7     document as well as the date.  Do you know if in the building of the

 8     municipality there was an arms depot belonging to the

 9     Territorial Defence?

10        A.   I am an employee of the administrative services of the

11     municipality of Rogatica, and I know only too well that that building

12     does not even have a basement.

13        Q.   In your conversations with others, did you hear that weapons were

14     stored there at any point in time?

15        A.   I never heard that there were any weapons in the municipal

16     building of Rogatica, that it was ever -- that they were ever stored in

17     the building of the municipality of Rogatica.

18        Q.   Did you hear that the military wanted to take something from the

19     Territorial Defence in Rogatica?

20        A.   Yes, I did.

21        Q.   Just a moment.  What?

22        A.   Yes.  I heard that members of the then JNA arrived in front of

23     the public security station building in Rogatica to take over the

24     military files of JNA members from the then department of defence.  I

25     know that Mr. Ahagic was ready and willing to hand over that

Page 26632

 1     documentation.  However, members of the Rogatica police station prevented

 2     that.  An incident occurred.  A member of the police in civilian clothes,

 3     whose family name was Alagic, tried to disarm a member of the then JNA,

 4     who was Albanian by ethnicity.  I don't know his name.  And then the

 5     soldier used his knife and hit the police member.  No fire was open at

 6     the time.  There was no exchange of fire of any sort.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think also reference as to, apparently,

12     also the content of the statement of a protected witness should not be

13     done in open session.  You can do that later, ask for private session,

14     say that this related to that, that related to this, but you already --

15     you already give some information about what a protected witness has

16     said.

17             And therefore, Madam Registrar, would you please make a

18     redaction.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Shall I just ask then every time to go to

21     private session just to quote?  Because it will be too late to go -- if I

22     go -- because I will have a lot of paragraphs.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not know whether -- do you want to put

24     them to the witness or ...?

25             MR. LUKIC:  I can put it to the witness as well.

Page 26633

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But then -- no.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I thought --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If you just --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- refer to what paragraph that statement is, then

 6     you ask for private session later on and say the testimony of this

 7     witness about A is linked in the Defence's view to paragraph so-and-so of

 8     the protected witness, you can make that a list, or even do it in writing

 9     and make a confidential submission but not do it the way in which you

10     were doing it.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then I would proceed

12     along the same lines, and finally we will end up with a list.  When we

13     have the final version of the transcript, we will be able to pin-point

14     the paragraph number.  [In English]  Let's go to the private session.  I

15     think it would be much faster and we should have then this statement on

16     our screens but not to be broadcasted to the public.  And I don't know if

17     you have to put down the blinds behind the witness, because he has to

18     have this statement on his screen.

19                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would read the relevant portion of the

21     statement to the witness, but then -- yes, we don't have any B/C/S

22     version.  Or summarise it.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Okay.  I can read it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's not too long --

25             MR. LUKIC:  No.


Page 26634

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- please read it.  But only in private session.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Private session, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26635











11  Pages 26635-26638 redacted.  Private session.















Page 26639

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

20             We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25 minutes past 12.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                           --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

25     the courtroom.


Page 26640

 1             Mr. Stojanovic, the Chamber understood that it's your wish not to

 2     start the examination-in-chief of the next witness.  Let us be very

 3     clear.  You should be prepared.  That's one.  And whether we'll insist on

 4     the witness to come to this building, we'll see how the present witness,

 5     the examination of the present witness develops, and then we'll decide in

 6     accordance with that.  But you should be prepared if any time is left.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  No microphone.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Your microphone was not activated, but I did

11     understand, Mr. Stojanovic, that you have no problems with what I just

12     said.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We can stay in the

17     open session.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Jankovic, can you quickly tell us a few

19     names of the ten first Serbian soldiers that were killed on the

20     19th of June, 1992?  The ones that you can remember.

21        A.   Those killed were Sava Losic; then last name Stjepanovic, I can't

22     remember his first name; also killed was Miladin Losic; Tomo Rajak;

23     Miroslav Jovicic; and some others whom I cannot remember at the moment.

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 26641

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I was warned.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Did any of the Serbian units in Rogatica have

 4     flamethrowers?

 5        A.   No, and I can guarantee for that because I have the knowledge

 6     that this kind of devices, flamethrowers, were removed from the JNA

 7     arsenal.

 8        Q.   Had there ever been any activity by the Uzice Corps in the area

 9     of Rogatica or any part thereof?

10        A.   I can fully confirm that the Uzice Corps or any units belonging

11     to it was operational in the area of Rogatica.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Was not operational.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Let's move now to Veljko Vlahovic school.  Can you tell us who

15     was accommodated there?

16        A.   The people who were accommodated in the Veljko Vlahovic school

17     were both Muslim and civilians of other ethnicities.  The purpose was to

18     provide protection for them in the course of combat that was going on in

19     the town of Rogatica.

20        Q.   Can you remember any names of non-Muslims who were accommodated

21     there?

22        A.   My uncle was in the school, secondary school, Veljko Vlahovic.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the name of his

24     uncle.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please repeat the name of your

Page 26642

 1     uncle who was at the Vlahovic school.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His name was Milorad Neskovic and

 3     his wife, Vera.  There was also a relative of mine named Veljko Sucula.

 4     There was also Vlasta Gavric, she was a Croat woman married to a Serb.

 5     There were also the Brusin family, the whole family, daughter Silvja,

 6     sons, Zdenko and Boro.  I don't remember the name of his wife.  And there

 7     were other families as well whose names I cannot recall right now.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, in your statement you say that you never

 9     entered the secondary school.  What's the source of your knowledge who

10     were there?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I had never gone to

12     the Veljko Vlahovic secondary school; however, I learned about this from

13     the soldiers who were securing the facility about who was accommodated

14     there.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, what's the purpose of securing a facility if

16     they are just there for their own well-being?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The purpose was as follows:  The

18     facility was security solely in order to prevent anyone coming to it

19     because everybody was armed at the time and preventing any incidents from

20     happening.  There were families who lost their members and in order to

21     prevent any form of retaliation that is why there was personnel on duty

22     inside the facility.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And was that the result, that everyone could

24     leave sound and safe that facility being -- having been protected there

25     by these guards?

Page 26643

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People are free to go wherever they

 2     wanted.  However, it was suggested for the benefit of their personal

 3     safety not to leave the facility.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  My question was whether everyone who had been

 5     protected there survived well having enjoyed this protection?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so.  I have no information

 7     that anyone was killed in the facility.  I don't think that ever

 8     happened.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And no one was taken by anyone else from that

10     facility and did not survive?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to my knowledge.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   The ground around the Veljko Vlahovic school, was it mined in

15     that period, June, July, August, September, and further on of 1992?

16        A.   I can say with 100 per cent certainty that there were no

17     minefield around this facility.  How do you plant mines around a school

18     in town?  It's inconceivable.  And I can claim that with full

19     responsibility.

20        Q.   Do you know where the food was being prepared for the people who

21     stayed at the Veljko Vlahovic school?

22        A.   The meals were prepared for those people at Upi Trans, and it was

23     delivered at the same time as it was delivered to members of the

24     Rogatica Territorial Defence.

25        Q.   You say at the same time.  Was it the same food or was it

Page 26644

 1     different?

 2        A.   Totally identical.

 3        Q.   How do you know that?  What kind of connection do you have with

 4     Upi Trans?

 5        A.   Well, the headquarters of the 1st Rogatica Company was at Upi

 6     Trans and that is where the kitchen was which provided meals for members

 7     of the Territorial Defence as well as for the people who were at the

 8     secondary school Veljko Vlahovic in Rogatica.

 9        Q.   Was there any water-supply in the school or was there a shortage

10     of water?

11        A.   There was water throughout the whole period because waterworks

12     were operational.  There were sanitation and other equipment in the

13     school.  The school had some ground floor rooms where windows were facing

14     east, whereas there were no windows on the west side of the school.  And

15     there were two flats inside the facility occupied by a caretaker and one

16     of the teachers.

17        Q.   After the fighting in Rogatica, did you see any burnt bodies

18     scattered around Rogatica?

19        A.   I never saw a charred body in my life in Rogatica.

20        Q.   Following the combat operations, did you see a lot of decomposing

21     bodies in Rogatica?

22        A.   No, I didn't because it's simply impossible.  Decomposing bodies

23     are a source of infectious disease; therefore, all the bodies should have

24     been buried and as I say I never saw any of them on the streets.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you limit yourself to what you saw

Page 26645

 1     and whether it would be possible or not on what should have been done is

 2     a totally different matter.  If there is any question in relation to

 3     that, Mr. Lukic will ask you.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Do you know where Teocak is near Rogatica?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Were you able to see that area?

 9        A.   Yes, I was.

10        Q.   Where from?

11        A.   From the Upi Trans facility where the company was stationed.

12        Q.   Did you see fires burning at Teocak where people were burnt or

13     did you see any fires at all that were burning for a long time?

14        A.   I did not notice anything at Teocak and that same thing applies

15     to the soldiers who were securing Upi Trans.  Had that been the case,

16     they would have been obliged to report such incidents.

17        Q.   Now briefly about buildings, religious buildings.  There were

18     mosques in Rogatica.  One of them was destroyed.  Do you know when was

19     the first one destroyed?

20        A.   The first one was destroyed on the 24th of July, 1992.  I'm

21     sorry, 24th of June.

22        Q.   Was this part of Rogatica under Serb control when this mosque was

23     demolished?

24        A.   The Serbian forces were not in control of that part of the town

25     where the mosque was destroyed.

Page 26646

 1        Q.   Have other religious buildings been destroyed in Rogatica such as

 2     the synagogue or the Catholic church?  Do you know anything about that?

 3        A.   Muslim forces -- or members of Muslim units, rather, burned the

 4     synagogue, but the Catholic church remained intact because it was located

 5     in the Serbian part of the town of Rogatica.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know who destroyed the mosque on the

 7     24th of July, 1992?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  But I know that TO

 9     members in Rogatica were not in that part of town at that time.  I don't

10     know who destroyed the mosque.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Let me ask you:  How come you know that that was on the

13     24th of June?  What else happened on that day?

14        A.   You know how.  On that day our APC made a contact with the other

15     part of the Serb territory and passed through that part of the town.  An

16     anti-tank mine was planted near the mosque and Slavisa Milackovic, who

17     was driving the APC, was killed on that occasion.  A passenger in the APC

18     was wounded on that occasion.  All that happened by the debris of the

19     mosque.

20        Q.   [Microphone not activated] I would like to move on to something

21     else.  Do you know Tomo Batinic?

22        A.   Yes, I know him.

23        Q.   Was he wounded during the war?

24        A.   Yes, he was wounded.  I believe that that happened in

25     November 1992 in the Socica sector, in late November of that year, that

Page 26647

 1     is.

 2        Q.   After that, did he immediately get involved in the work?  What

 3     happened to him after the wounding?  What kind of a wound was that?

 4        A.   It was a serious bodily wound.  Mr. Batinic lost an eye and he

 5     had serious injuries on his leg as well as lacerations on his face.  He

 6     was referred for further treatment in Belgrade.  He spent there over a

 7     year, and as far as I know he did not return.  He did not occupy any

 8     other duties after he was wounded.

 9        Q.   Immediately after he was wounded, did he move around the town?

10     Did he meet with people?  Did he talk to people?  Did he visit places

11     around Rogatica?  Was he able to do that?

12        A.   No.  He was seriously wounded.  He lost an eye.  His leg was

13     injured.  Therefore, he was not in a position to move around the town

14     immediately after wounding.  He was urgently transported to Belgrade and

15     he stayed there for treatment for over a year.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you tell us whether Mr. Batinic was a

18     civilian, was he a military man?  Was he -- what position did he have, if

19     any?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time Tomislav Batinic was

21     the president of the assembly.  He was a civilian.  He was not a soldier.

22     He was a civilian.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And just one more piece of information, if you know.  How was he

Page 26648

 1     wounded?

 2        A.   Mr. Batinic was in a vehicle and that vehicle hit a tank mine.

 3     He was returning from a field mission.  The driver of the vehicle was

 4     killed and Tomo was wounded in the way I described.

 5        Q.   While you participated in the events in and around Rogatica, did

 6     you ever see a plan according to which one-third of Muslims from Rogatica

 7     had to be killed, one-third baptised and convert to do Christianity, and

 8     the last third should leave?

 9        A.   I claim with full support that I never heard from anybody, and

10     especially not from my superiors, that something of that kind was planned

11     to happen in the town of Rogatica.

12        Q.   And just one more seemingly unimportant piece of information:

13     Did you know Mirko Planojevic?

14        A.   Yes, I knew him.

15        Q.   Did he have a brother?

16        A.   He did have a brother.  His name was Ozren Planojevic.

17        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, this is all that our Defence has prepared for you

18     and we thank you for answering our questions.

19        A.   Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

21             Before we give an opportunity to the Prosecution to cross-examine

22     you, Judge Fluegge would have one or more questions for you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just briefly.

24             Witness, you told us about the destruction of the synagogue.

25     Where have you been when this happened?

Page 26649

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the part controlled by the

 2     Serbian army or, rather, the Territorial Defence.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How far away from the synagogue?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some 1500 metres, I believe.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you see the destruction with your own eyes?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How do you know that this was done by Muslim

 8     units?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because that part was under

10     the control of Muslim units exclusively.  Two Serbian cafes were torched

11     at the same time as the synagogue and some private Serbian houses as

12     well.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a conclusion you have drawn from the

14     location of the synagogue; correct?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One other question.  You told us about -- this

17     can be found on page 47, lines 19 to 21:

18             "I," talking about the school, "I learned about this from the

19     soldiers who were securing the facility about who was accommodated

20     there."

21             What kind of soldiers were these?  To which unit did they belong?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those soldiers were from the

23     Territorial Defence, a company of the Territorial Defence.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which Territorial Defence, the joint one or the

25     Serbian one?


Page 26650

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serb Territorial Defence.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, are you ready to cross-examine the

 4     witness?

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  I am, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 7             You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. MacDonald.  You'll find him

 8     to your right.  Mr. MacDonald is counsel for the Prosecution.

 9             Please proceed.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:

11        Q.   Witness, I'd like to move chronologically through events in 1992

12     as briefly as possible.  Can you tell the Court when you first joined the

13     Territorial Defence in 1992?

14        A.   20th of April, 1992.

15        Q.   Now, in paragraph 4 of your statement in relation to the

16     distribution of weapons by the Territorial Defence, you state you were

17     called when some of the weapons were received.  Who exactly called you?

18        A.   The commander of the Territorial Defence.

19        Q.   And who was that?

20        A.   Mr. Rajko Kusic.

21        Q.   So for the sake of clarity, this is the Serbian

22     Territorial Defence that you're referring to?

23        A.   Precisely so.

24        Q.   You say you joined the 20th of April, 1992.  When did this call

25     take place?

Page 26651

 1        A.   I can't remember the date, but it was around that time when the

 2     Territorial Defence was first organised.  That's when we were called.

 3        Q.   Can you describe for the Court the type of weapons that you

 4     mention in paragraph 4 in relation to this arming?

 5        A.   Only small calibre infantry weapons.

 6        Q.   How many men were in the unit at the end of April 1992?

 7        A.   I have to stress that I'm referring only to the village of

 8     Pljesevica where I lived and where defence was indeed organised.  There

 9     were approximately some 50 or 60 people there but unarmed.  Because small

10     quantities of weapons were distributed, they were handed over to the

11     village guards whose goal was to protect the population from a possible

12     attack.

13        Q.   I believe you state that Milos Jankovic, your cousin, was the

14     leader of the unit in Pljesevica.  Who was his superior?

15        A.   Precisely so.  The commander of the Territorial Defence was his

16     superior.

17        Q.   So far as you're aware, did your unit, the one in Pljesevica,

18     ever receive any orders from Mehmet Adzic?

19        A.   We never received any such order.  Ever.  I don't know.  I'm not

20     familiar with that.

21        Q.   For the sake of clarity, Witness, did that unit have any other

22     goal other than protecting the village of Pljesevica at the time at the

23     end of April of 1992?

24        A.   The only task that unit had was to protect the village.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  I wonder if at this point the Prosecution can

Page 26652

 1     have 65 ter number 31407, please.

 2        Q.   All right.  Witness, what you see before you is an order from the

 3     1st Romanija Brigade to the command of the Rogatica Brigade on

 4     21st April 1992.  It is a request for an assessment on the readiness of

 5     Territorial Defence units for combat.

 6             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can move to the second page in both.

 7     Your Honours, I have to apologise here.  The English translation,

 8     unfortunately, did not contain the signature which Your Honours see on

 9     the B/C/S translation.  I did bring that to the attention of those who

10     translated it and I believe a revision is in process.  When I move to

11     tender this document, I will ask to MFI it, Your Honours, in due course.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.  Please proceed for the time being.

13             MR. MacDONALD:  I am obliged.

14        Q.   Witness, who has signed this document?

15        A.   It says Dragoljub Macar.  I didn't know the man, personally.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  Okay.  If we can go back to the first page in

17     both, please.

18        Q.   Now, it -- I appreciate I've said this already, Witness, but just

19     to highlight the fact this is on the 21st of April, 1992.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter

21     number 31408.  And, Your Honours, the second document is linked to the

22     first document which is why I'm moving directly to it just now.  Thank

23     you.

24        Q.   Witness, this is a report on the 30th of April, 1992.  Do you see

25     at the top just underneath to whom it is being sent that it states:

Page 26653

 1             "Pursuant to order dated 21st April, 1992, I hereby submit a

 2     report ..."

 3             Do you see that language?

 4        A.   I cannot see it very well.  Can this be zoomed in or something?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, otherwise you'll read the relevant

 6     portion you want to draw the attention of the witness to.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:

 8        Q.   Well, Witness, this report does state it's being given pursuant

 9     to an order dated 21st April, 1992.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can move to the last page in both

11     documents.

12        Q.   I'm right, Witness, in saying that it's been sent by the

13     Territorial Defence commander Rasko Kusic on 30th April; that's right,

14     isn't it?

15        A.   I can see his name but there is no signature.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can we --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not "Rasko Kusic" but "Rajko Kusic."  Just

18     for the record.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  I am obliged, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we see on the -- let me see.  Yes, I see that we

21     are in paragraph 8 in the original, which is not visible in the English

22     translation.  But may I take it that we are looking at that because we

23     see in capital letters, "We kindly request ...," which is part of

24     paragraph 8 of this document.  I'm just comparing the left --

25             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, you're right, Your Honour.

Page 26654

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to the right.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honour is correct that the paragraph numbers

 3     are not reflected.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can now please move to page 2 of the

 6     English and page 3 of the B/C/S.  My apologies, I have inverted those

 7     numbers.  Page 3 of the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Witness, near the top of the page we see the heading:

 9     "Pljesevica Company - Centre 2."  Now, that's your unit, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes, Pljesevica Company indeed was our unit.

11        Q.   Now just under it we see a -- well, we see the words "controlling

12     the entrance into the city from the direction of Sarajevo towards Konanje

13     and Zivaljevina and then securing," and there are a number of locations

14     that follow.

15             Is that in fact what your unit was doing on the

16     30th of April, 1992?

17        A.   As far as I know one part of the neighbourhood of Karanfil was

18     joined to that unit unbeknownst to me.  That unit that was in the

19     territory of Pljesevica did not control the entrance to the city from the

20     direction of Sarajevo.

21        Q.   Can I just clarify the first sentence of your answer there.  One

22     part of the neighbourhood was joined to, I assume, your unit, but that

23     was not known to you.  Can you just explain what you mean by that?

24        A.   I mean, the report.  Maybe some other unit's competencies were

25     reported as being part of the Pljesevica Company competency.  I claim

Page 26655

 1     with full responsibility that we were not in that part of town and that

 2     we did not control the passage of vehicles on that road.  Not towards the

 3     end of April.

 4        Q.   But you were deputy commander of this company, weren't you,

 5     Witness?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can move on to the next sentence.

 8        Q.   Weaponry and possession.  And it says "2 x 12.7mm PAM."  What

 9     weapons are those, Witness?

10        A.   That's an anti-aircraft machine-gun, 12.7 millimetres.

11        Q.   And did your unit in fact have two anti-aircraft guns, Witness?

12        A.   It is correct that two arrived in the unit but one was handed

13     over to Donje Polje and one remained in the village of Pljesevica.

14        Q.   Now, Witness, my understanding earlier was that your testimony

15     was that you received light infantry weapons only.  Are these light

16     infantry weapons?

17        A.   Those were not artillery weapons.  An anti-aircraft machine-gun

18     is --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, don't change the question.  The question is

20     whether these were light infantry weapons.  There was no suggestion that

21     it was artillery or whatever.  Are these light infantry weapons?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in my opinion.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  I'll move on, Your Honours.

24             I'll seek to tender both of those documents.  Although pending

25     the signature on the first one with the English translation, I'd ask that

Page 26656

 1     be MFI'd in the meantime.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Madam Registrar, the first document.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31407 receives number P6813.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  And document 31408 receives number P6814,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.  P6814 is admitted.

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  If I can now move to May 1992.

10        Q.   When the Rogatica Company was formed, how many men were in that

11     unit?

12        A.   I don't know the exact number.  Approximately a hundred men.

13        Q.   Did the Pljesevica unit become this company or was it combined

14     with others to become this company?

15        A.   Not the entire Pljesevica unit because most of that unit were

16     elderly men who were unfit for service.  They were just village guards.

17     The newly set up company was composed of the population from

18     militarily-able-bodied men from the part of town known as Karanfil.

19        Q.   Do you know a man called Zoran Bojat?

20        A.   Please repeat the name.  I did not understand it properly.

21        Q.   Perhaps it's my pronunciation.  Perhaps I can spell it, the

22     second name, B-o-j-a-t.

23        A.   I know one from Pljesevica, the other from Borik.  So I know two

24     people by the same name, Zoran Bojat.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 26657

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31406.

 2        Q.   This is a report by a Zoran Bojat to the

 3     Intervention Platoon Territorial Unit in Pljesevica and it is dated

 4     19 May, 1992.  Witness, in your statement you stated your company was an

 5     intervention one.  Is this addressed to your unit?

 6        A.   I really can't read what it says here.  Could you please read it

 7     for me?  The picture is simply not clear enough.

 8        Q.   Very well.  In the top left-hand corner, it states,

 9     "Territorial Defence, Intervention Platoon, Pljesevica."  The title is,

10     "Report on reconnaissance of the area of Sjemec."  I won't read the text,

11     but it is a report submitted by Zoran Bojat.  It is dated 19 May, 1992,

12     from Borike.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it possible to zoom in on the B/C/S version?

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Perhaps we can try and zoom in on the B/C/S

15     version.

16        Q.   Does that help, Witness?

17        A.   Much easier.  So I can read it, if you will allow me.  Can I

18     explain?

19        Q.   Perhaps just --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait for a question.

21             MR. MacDONALD:

22        Q.   Perhaps just now, Witness, if you just tell us whether this was

23     addressed to your unit?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Was there another Intervention Platoon in Pljesevica?

Page 26658

 1        A.   This is an Intervention Platoon that operated within the Borik

 2     battalion, and it was composed of people from Pljesevica.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you now answer the question put to you by the

 4     Prosecutor, please.  The question was are there more than one

 5     intervention platoons in the -- in this unit of yours?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no Intervention Platoon

 7     at all.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:

 9        Q.   My apologies, Witness.  Perhaps there was a mistranslation, which

10     can clarify this.  In your statement in paragraph 6, you state:  "The

11     company I led was an intervention company"; is that correct?

12        A.   That is correct.  That is the company that had been formed in

13     Upi Trans, not in Pljesevica.

14        Q.   So it -- you're not aware which unit this report is being

15     directed to?

16        A.   I don't know anything about this report.  I don't know who it is

17     addressed to.

18        Q.   Perhaps I can take you to one part of it, nevertheless.  The

19     second sentence, Witness, states, "General mobilisation was carried out

20     in the mentioned area ..."  Were you aware of a general mobilisation

21     taking place on 19 May, 1992?

22        A.   No, I don't know that there was general mobilisation.  I do know,

23     though, that people organised themselves and set up units in order to

24     protect their villages and their families.

25        Q.   Yes, Witness.  You stated about self-organisation with regard to

Page 26659

 1     your own unit but that was under the command of Rajko Kusic; that's

 2     right, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, I wonder if this might be a

 5     suitable point to have a break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a suitable time to have a break.  Could you

 7     tell us how much more time you would need after the break?

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  I would hope 30 minutes, Your Honours, but it may

 9     stretch to 45.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then there is no need to keep the next

11     witness on standby.

12             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We would like to see

13     you back after the break.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at quarter to 2.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You are just to be ready that you're standing or is

19     there anything that you would like to address, Mr. MacDonald?

20             MR. MacDONALD:  There is one matter that I would like to address,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  Just for Your Honours's information, I would not

24     seek to tender the document that we were discussing just before the

25     break, 31406.

Page 26660

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MR. MacDONALD:

 4        Q.   Witness, if I can remain with May 1992.  You say in your

 5     statement other companies were formed in the Rogatica municipality, one

 6     in Kozici and one in Borike.  Who was in command of the company in Kozici

 7     when it was formed?

 8        A.   Spiro Pavlovski, I think was his name, was commander in Kozici.

 9     And in Borike that was a unit the size of a battalion - I made a mistake

10     there - and it was under a direct command of the TO commander.

11        Q.   And you state that at some point a brigade was formed from all

12     the units in Rogatica.  What date did that take place?

13        A.   I cannot recall the date.  It is true that a brigade was formed

14     after the TO became part of the Army of Republika Srpska, but I cannot

15     remember the day.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

17             You said the Borike unit, size of a battalion.  It was under a

18     direct command of the TO commander.  Who was that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was Mr. Rajko Kusic.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. MacDONALD:  I would now like to discuss a document from the

23     1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

24        Q.   Before I request it be called up, the Rogatica Brigade was

25     renamed to the Podrinje Brigade in late 1992; is that correct?

Page 26661

 1        A.   I think it was called exactly the 1st Podrinje Light Brigade.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did the name change in late 1992; is that

 5     correct?  That was also part of the question.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I cannot remember at

 7     the moment.  I don't think so.  I think the name remained the same.

 8     Light brigade.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             You may continue.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm obliged, Your Honour.

12             Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number 31402.  If we can

13     move to the second page of the document in both languages.

14        Q.   Now, Witness, this is a document dated 23rd November, 1994.  It's

15     been sent to the Drina Corps command from Rajko Kusic, who is identified

16     as a commander of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.  It concerns

17     an update to the list of officers in that brigade, and it will be

18     referring back to 1992.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can please move to page 3 in both

20     languages.

21        Q.   And, Witness, what I'm interested, and here are the columns along

22     the top.  I believe we see name, rank, date, place, and municipality of

23     birth.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  And if we can scroll along to the right in the

25     B/C/S version.

Page 26662

 1        Q.   Almost in the middle of your page, a column that states "joined

 2     VRS on."  Can you see those columns, Witness, or would you like the B/C/S

 3     made bigger?

 4        A.   Believe me, my sight is so bad.  I can't find anything that you

 5     made reference to.

 6        Q.   Perhaps we can try and make it bigger, the column.  Does that

 7     help you, Witness?

 8        A.   I can't see anything.  Now I can see.

 9        Q.   And would you agree that it's a name, then rank, and then to the

10     right of the page date, place, and municipality of birth?

11        A.   Yes.  This is birth, identification number, date and place of

12     birth.

13             MR. MacDONALD:  And if we can scroll to the right in the

14     document, please.  Slightly further.  Further to the right, sorry.  If we

15     keep scrolling.  If that's -- yes, if we can hold it there, please.

16        Q.   The last full column on the right, Witness, am I right in saying

17     the title of that is "Joined VRS on"?

18        A.   Yes, that's what it says.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can go fully back to the left.  And my

20     thanks to the court assistants for scrolling back and forth.

21        Q.   The first name is Rajko Kusic.  Do you see that there?

22        A.   Yes, I do.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can go back to the column "Joined VRS on."

24        Q.   And that states the 20th of May, 1992, doesn't it, Witness?

25        A.   That is correct.

Page 26663

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  And if we can once again scroll back to the left.

 2        Q.   If I can take you to the second name, one Milovan Lelek.  Do you

 3     know who that was?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   And who is he, Witness?

 6        A.   That was the man whom I replaced on the 30th of November, 1993,

 7     at Borike, who had taken over the position of chief of staff of the

 8     Rogatica Brigade from Mile Vujic.

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can scroll back to the column "Joined VRS

10     on," please.

11        Q.   And it states that he joined the VRS on 20th of May, 1992, as

12     well; doesn't it?

13        A.   Yes, it does.

14             MR. MacDONALD:  If we can move to page 4 in the B/C/S and page 6

15     in the English, please.

16             With Your Honours' leave, I would simply ask the B/C/S be put on

17     the screen and we perform the same operation as we did for the initial

18     two names.

19             I'm looking for number 22, which is at the bottom.

20        Q.   Witness, number 22, is that your name that appears there?

21        A.   Yes.  That's my name.

22             MR. MacDONALD:  And if we scroll along to the right, please.

23        Q.   Under the column "Joined VRS ...," it says 20 May, 1992; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 26664

 1        Q.   And, Witness, is this document accurate?  Did you join the VRS on

 2     the 20th of May, 1992?

 3        A.   According to the certificates that I provided from the draft

 4     office say that as of the 20th of April I was member of the TO Rogatica,

 5     and then as of 20th of May, 1992, I was a member of the Army Republika

 6     Srpska.  Therefore, I think this is accurate.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  If I can move on to the last chronological piece

 9     I intend to tackle.

10        Q.   You state in paragraph 15 of your statement that Rajko Kusic was

11     your immediate superior throughout the war.  Until what date were you

12     subordinated to Rajko Kusic?

13        A.   Until the 30th of June, 1995 -- sorry, 1996.

14        Q.   Did you remain on the territory of Rogatica municipality

15     throughout -- well, until 1996?

16        A.   Yes, I remained there in Rogatica until 1996 and further on.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, with thanks to my colleague, I

18     would seek to tender the document 31402.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31402 receives number P6815,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

23             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm obliged.

24        Q.   Witness, I'd now like to address a few statements you make in

25     your statement.  You state that there were two collection centres in

Page 26665

 1     Rogatica municipality, and that's at paragraph 12 of your statement.  For

 2     the sake of clarity, do you accept there could have been more of these

 3     centres and that you were unaware of their existence?

 4        A.   I believe that there were only two, only two centres.  The

 5     Veljko Vlahovic secondary school and the Rogatica agricultural compound.

 6        Q.   The second one that you refer to, is that more commonly known as

 7     Rasadnik?

 8        A.   It used to be an agricultural compound that was empty.  It

 9     belonged to Agrokombinat and yes, its popular name was, indeed, Rasadnik.

10     I suppose that it's because it used to be a nursery.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm obliged, Your Honour.  Can the Prosecution

12     please have P06774.

13        Q.   I am happy to read out the relevant parts to you, Witness.  This

14     is from Rajko Kusic on the 30th of November, 1992, to the municipal

15     assembly of Rogatica.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  In the second paragraph in the English,

17     Your Honours, about halfway down the page.  It states -- sorry, in the

18     middle of the first paragraph, Your Honours.  My apology.

19        Q.   "With your approval we have gathered civilians at the secondary

20     school, church centre, and DP/socially owned enterprise/ Ergela in

21     Rogatica.  In accordance with the circumstances we were providing them

22     with the same food as soldiers on the line had three times a day."

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down while reading.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  My apologies.

25        Q.   Witness, this is your commander providing a report at the end of

Page 26666

 1     November 1992 and he is referring to other centres in Rogatica

 2     municipality.  Do you accept there were other centres and you were

 3     unaware of their existence?

 4        A.   If I may be allowed to explain.

 5        Q.   Certainly, yes.

 6        A.   A reference is made in here in this letter to the church centre

 7     in Rogatica.  I was aware of it but it was only a reception centre.  As

 8     far as I know, people didn't say there.  They would be referred to the

 9     school immediately after just having been received there.

10        Q.   Very well.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P02229 on the

12     screen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness also explain Ergela or --

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Oh, indeed, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You told us about a church but what about the

16     socially owned Ergela company, I take it, in Rogatica?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the company Agrokombinat in

18     Rasadnik.  I don't know where the term "Ergela" comes from.  It used to

19     be a cattle farm sometime in the past.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So you consider it likely that it's actually

21     the same but under a different name.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm obliged, Your Honours.

25        Q.   Witness, the document in front of you now is a report from the

Page 26667

 1     Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior public security station in

 2     Rogatica, dated 17 June, 2004.  I will read the relevant parts to you,

 3     Witness.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  For Your Honours in the first paragraph just

 5     after the date 2nd of June, 2004, it states:

 6             "The information was gathered regarding collection centres where

 7     persons of Bosniak nationality stayed in the region of Rogatica."

 8        Q.   Witness, it then goes on to enumerate five such centres including

 9     the former nursery-garden, the building of the malt-house factory, the

10     building of the high school, CJB Rogatica, and the building named the

11     rectory.  Now, Witness, if I can ask you again:  Do you accept there were

12     other collection centres in Rogatica other than the two that you were

13     aware of?

14        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps statements were taken from people when

15     they arrived.  I'm aware of the secondary school centre, I'm aware of

16     this Rasadnik place.

17        Q.   So, Witness, yes, you don't know about these other collection

18     centres.  That's what you're saying?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   Very quickly with regards to the facility of Rasadnik.  I'm right

21     in saying you never observed the conditions, rather, in which detainees

22     were held; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, I entered the facility on several occasions, but I did not

24     enter the area where people were kept.  I just entered the office of the

25     manager of this facility.

Page 26668

 1        Q.   And with regard to the school, you've told us you're aware there

 2     were sanitation facilities there.  But, Witness, you have no idea of the

 3     conditions in which detainees were held there either, do you?

 4        A.   I know that there was always water during the war because the

 5     town was supplied from a source which was under the control of the

 6     Territorial Defence of Rogatica municipality.  I really didn't enter

 7     those premises in order to see whether there was water or not, whether

 8     there were facilities working or not.

 9        Q.   If I can move on, then.  When you passed through Rogatica town,

10     Witness, did you never see detainees performing forced labour such as

11     chopping wood or cleaning up rubbish?

12        A.   I know that detainees volunteered to work, to collect firewood,

13     to work on private farms, because they would receive better food.  They

14     would even be given clothes and cigarettes.  They volunteered for work.

15     I never knew that they were forced to work.

16        Q.   I'll move on from that topic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just ask one question.  You said that they

18     would receive better food.  Now you explained this before, that they got

19     all this same food as all the soldiers got, three times a day.  What was

20     better than?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they worked in private

22     households, if they sowed potatoes or something, in private homes food

23     was better than from big cauldrons, and they also received cigarettes,

24     and, yes, they normally received the same food as all of us.  But in

25     private homes, food was better.

Page 26669

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, where does this knowledge come from?  How do

 2     you know exactly, for example, whether those detained in the

 3     Veljko Vlahovic school would voluntarily have reported for work?  How do

 4     you know that?  Of course, the Chamber has heard evidence about the

 5     situations in those institutions.  At least, therefore, I'm wondering

 6     where your information comes from?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people came to my line and

 8     they prepared fuel wood there, and I know what they were saying, that

 9     they were much better off if they were out working in the field than if

10     they stayed in the facility.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So they worked close to or in any connection with

12     the unit you were in at the front line?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand your question.

14     Could you please rephrase or repeat.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You said those people came to my line.  May I take

16     it that that is the front line or confrontation line?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence line.  The defence

18     line.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And they had to work close to the defence

20     line?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not have to do anything.

22     They expressed a desire to work because nobody forced them to work, not

23     on my line, and they never worked on the line itself.  They worked in the

24     depth of the territory, perhaps 200 metres or so away from the combat

25     line -- I apologise, from the Defence line.


Page 26670

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, I see that it's time for -- to adjourn.

 4             And could you give us an indication as to how much more time you

 5     would need?

 6             MR. MacDONALD:  I think between probably around six or seven

 7     minutes, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you give us an indication as to how

11     much time you would need as matters stand now?

12             MR. LUKIC:  I am calculating, probably I will need six, seven

13     minutes too.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, we are considering whether or not we

15     could conclude the testimony of this witness which would then take

16     another 10 to 15 minutes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Probably 15 to 20.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Fifteen to 20.  Perhaps it's wiser to adjourn for

19     the day.  But then I take it that the parties will be very disciplined

20     tomorrow and not think very early in the morning so therefore there are

21     hours left.

22             Witness, before we adjourn for the day I would like to instruct

23     you that you should not speak to anyone or communicate in whatever other

24     way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've

25     given today or whether that is testimony that you are still about to give

Page 26671

 1     tomorrow.  Is that clear?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning

 4     at 9.30.  You may now follow the usher.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow,

 8     Tuesday, the 14th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 9     courtroom, I.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day

12                           of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.