Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26672

 1                           Tuesday, 14 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Judge Fluegge is unable to continue to sit in this case for

12     health reasons, but most likely they will not last any longer than for

13     the first session today, so there is a fair expectation that he would be

14     back in the second session.  Judge Moloto and myself have considered

15     whether it would be in the interests of justice to continue to hear the

16     case and we decided it is in the interest of justice.

17             Having said this, the Chamber was informed that the Defence had a

18     preliminary matter to raise.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.  And good morning,

21     Your Honours.

22             Your Honours, we have been asked by your staff to comment on D314

23     in light of the Exhibit P1640, which is an excerpt of the book which

24     comprised D314.  We are satisfied that the excerpt P1640 is sufficient

25     and thus state for the record that we withdraw D314, and all references

Page 26673

 1     to D314 should be understood now to relate to P1640.  Thank you,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for paying attention to

 4     this request.

 5             Before we decide on the matter, I'd like to think a bit more, and

 6     the Chamber would like to think a bit more about the consequences to

 7     always have these references to be understood in a different way where

 8     there is no clue for that.  So if someone would read part of the

 9     transcript, then they may have problems in finding the underlying

10     document unless they find today's transcript where it is all explained.

11     So whether this is the most practical way of doing that, we'll consider

12     that, but thank you, at least, for considering the matter.  And whether

13     the withdrawal is accepted or not is still to be determined.

14             I leave it to that at this moment.

15             I would like to inform the parties, first of all -- but perhaps

16     we could already ask the usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.

17     But there is a change in the hearing schedule.  In order to accommodate

18     the scheduling of the Appeals Chamber, this Chamber will exceptionally

19     sit on Friday the 14th of November and will not sit on Wednesday the 12th

20     of November.  So that week we have Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday, Friday

21     as sitting days.

22             Finally, the Prosecution has advised the Chamber that it has

23     received the revised English translation for P6813 which was

24     65 ter 31407, which was MFI'd through Witness Jankovic yesterday.  The

25     revised translation has been uploaded into e-court under doc

Page 26674

 1     ID 0529-4743-ET1-1 and the court officer is hereby instructed to replace

 2     the current translation with a revised version and the Chamber admits

 3     P6813 into evidence and, as always, the Defence has an opportunity within

 4     48 hours to further -- to revisit the matter.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Jankovic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Same apologies as yesterday that we continued to

 9     deal with other matters when you entered the courtroom.  I would also

10     like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration

11     you've given at the beginning of your testimony yesterday, that you are

12     bound to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  MILENKO JANKOVIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald will now further cross-examine you.

16             Mr. MacDonald.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And if I can start with

18     a quick apology.  I should have said to Your Honours there is one matter

19     that I have to address quickly.  That is simply with regard to P61813.

20     My friend has brought to my attention that yesterday I stated it was an

21     order to the Rogatica Brigade command.  I should have said it was an

22     order to the Rogatica Territorial Defence command.  I just wanted to put

23     that on the record.  I'm obliged, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby corrected and the document remains

25     what it is.

Page 26675

 1             Please proceed.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:  [Continued]

 3        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, yesterday I asked if you knew who the commander of

 4     the Kozici unit was in May 1992.  You replied it may have been

 5     Spiro Pavlovski.  Is it possible that the commander of the Kozici --

 6        A.   His last name was Paunovic.

 7        Q.   Yes, well, that answers my question.  Thank you.  If I can now

 8     move to paragraph 11 of your statement.  There you state the Bosnian Serb

 9     forces never carried out organised moving of Bosnian Muslims.  May I ask

10     you what you mean by Bosnian Serb forces?

11        A.   I'm referring to members of the Territorial Defence and actually

12     to members of the Army of Republika Srpska.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand the last

14     part of the sentence.

15             MR. MacDONALD:

16        Q.   Could you just repeat the last part of your sentence there,

17     Witness?  The interpreters did not understand that.

18        A.   So I was referring to members of the Territorial Defence of

19     Rogatica municipality, which later became VP6181 Rogatica, which stands

20     for the Rogatica Light Brigade.

21        Q.   Are you aware of the civilian police moving the population out in

22     an organised manner from Rogatica in 1992?

23        A.   As far as I know, there was no organised moving of the population

24     in Rogatica.  The Muslims had left the place for the most part prior to

25     the war, and during the war they left with their respective units.  The

Page 26676

 1     majority of Serbs remained in neighbourhoods like Karakaj [phoen] and

 2     Donje Polje.  So either they went to live with their relatives in the

 3     neighbouring villages, but nevertheless, as I said, there was no

 4     organised moving of the population.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  Could the Prosecution please have P6774.

 6        Q.   Witness, this is a document we saw yesterday.  It is a report by

 7     Rajko Kusic to the municipal assembly of Rogatica.  I'm just going to

 8     read out the second paragraph.  I'm sorry, I should say it's dated the

 9     30th of November, 1992.  The second paragraph states:

10             "After sufficient number of civilian population was gathered, you

11     have organised their transport to Sarajevo, Bijeljina, Olovo, and to

12     Zepa, which was escorted by civilian police."

13             And I'm going to read the last paragraph as well:

14             "We would like to mention that you have the lists of the loyal

15     Muslims in the area of Rogatica Municipality as well as the lists of the

16     ones who were sent away from Rogatica in the previous months during

17     combat activities."

18             Witness, do you accept that certainly the civilian police were

19     involved in the organised moving out of the civilian population of

20     Rogatica in 1992?

21        A.   I have to repeat that in my view there was no organised moving

22     out of Rogatica.  All the individuals who reported to collection centres

23     had an opportunity to express their desire to leave or not to leave.  All

24     those who wanted to leave, left escorted by the police for their safety.

25     When they say here loyal, that means that those were the people who

Page 26677

 1     expressed their with to remain where they have always resigned and

 2     that -- resided and that means in Rogatica.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, are you aware that you changed your answer

 4     over the last three minutes?  You explained to us that Muslims either had

 5     left the place prior to the war and during the war they left with their

 6     respective units.  That's what you told us.  And you said there was no

 7     organised moving out.

 8             Now confronted with this document, you add a third category which

 9     you did not include in your previous answer.  Are you aware of that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear to me.  But the fact is

11     that not all the people can leave at one time.  Someone has to stay

12     behind.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a different matter.  I just wanted to make

14     clear to you that you changed your answer over five minutes by now

15     admitting to a third category, whereas earlier you mentioned only two

16     categories.  If you are aware of that, I'll give an opportunity to

17     Mr. MacDonald to continue his cross-examination.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   I'll move on to my last topic, Witness.  You state in your

21     statement in paragraph 14 that you were told to strictly adhere to the

22     Geneva Conventions.  Was it your commander Rajko Kusic who told you that?

23        A.   Correct.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have P01064.

25        Q.   This is a report by Rajko Kusic.  It is in August 1995.  And it's

Page 26678

 1     being sent to the command of the Drina Corps.  Point 1 concerns five

 2     persons captured in Ustipraca and another person captured in Luka.  I'm

 3     going to read it for you in a moment, Witness, but before I do,

 4     Rajko Kusic refers to the five persons captured as "balijas."  What do

 5     you understand that term to mean?

 6        A.   This is how the Serb people refer to extremist Muslims.  When I

 7     say "extremist," that means a person who does not abide by the usual

 8     standards of morale and conduct.

 9        Q.   Someone who doesn't abide by the usual standards of morale and

10     conduct.  Very well, Witness.  This is a daily combat report and point 1

11     reads:

12             "On 7 August 1995 in the afternoon, in the canyon of the Praca

13     River, five remaining balijas (derogatory term for the Bosnian Muslims)

14     who were after the fall of Zepa travelling along the following route -

15     Luka crossed the Drina river by boat - Kamenicki Potok - Babina Gora-

16     Gradina - Kapetanovici - crossed the Drina river on the logs - Crni Vrh -

17     Kopito above Medvedja - Ustipraca - went down to the railroad tracks at

18     Dub and tried to reach Renovica walking on the railroad tracks were

19     liquidated."

20             The final paragraph under point 1, Witness, states:

21             "The same day, in the vicinity of Luka, an unarmed Ustasha, born

22     in Srebrenica, 24 years old, was liquidated.  Before he died, he said

23     that he fell behind the others and was looking for a food."

24             My question, Witness:  Liquidating people you've captured and

25     questioned is not in conformity with the Geneva Conventions, is it?

Page 26679

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

 4             Mr. Lukic, any questions in redirect?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, I have more from this morning than from the

 6     previous day, but I'll start from the end.

 7             Actually, the answer the witness gave to the question is not

 8     recorded in the transcript.  So if you want to -- the question is

 9     liquidating people.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think from what I remember that was

11     translated is that the witness confirmed --

12             MR. LUKIC:  That's not --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that liquidating people that were captured and

14     questioned is not in conformity with the Geneva Conventions.  I think the

15     witness confirmed that, didn't you, Witness?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Jankovic, good morning once again.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   I'm going to read this document that has been presented to you

23     which says that on the same date near Banja Luka an Ustasha born in

24     Srebrenica, 24 years old, was liquidated.  Judging by this document, can

25     one deduce that this person was captured?  Is that what the document

Page 26680

 1     shows?  Or is there no reference to his being taken prisoner?

 2        A.   One can see here that he hadn't been captured but it also shows

 3     that these events took place in two locations.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- could you please clarify what event took

 6     place as we supposedly are to read in this document in two places?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Please answer if you can.

10        A.   The canyon of the Praca river belongs to Rogatica municipality.

11     From Mesici towards Praca and Renovici [phoen] neighbourhoods were -- or,

12     rather, Pale, Luka, is a municipality of Srebrenica.  That is outside of

13     the zone of responsibility of the Rogatica Brigade.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  I'm not interested mainly in

15     the geography.  Your answer was one can see here that he hadn't been

16     captured.  You're apparently talking about one person.  One person, in my

17     view, at least that's how I understand it, is linked to what happened on

18     the same day.  One unarmed Ustasha opposite to a group of five.  He had

19     been captured.  But you said but it also shows that these events took

20     place in two locations.  It may be clear, Mr. Lukic, and I'm also

21     addressing you, Mr. MacDonald, that the location of the liquidation of

22     the five was not the same as the place of the liquidation of the one

23     person.  Is there agreement on that?

24             MR. LUKIC:  That's how I read the document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's how Mr. MacDonald reads the document, that's

Page 26681

 1     how the Chamber reads the document.  That's therefore clear.  The answer

 2     was a bit confusing.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  And I think that's how the witness reads the document

 4     as well.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine, but --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  He mentions there are two locations.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.  Now we do not need the exegesis of the

 8     witness for the documents, as you know, but you have -- and let me just

 9     have a look, especially where -- Witness, you said, "One can see here

10     that he hadn't been captured."

11             Now, that is purely explanation of a document, Mr. Lukic.

12     Nevertheless, the witness gave it.  Then I would like to know exactly

13     what it is that makes him believe that the one person that is in the

14     vicinity of Luka, the unarmed Ustasha, you said, was not captured.

15     That's what you read.  Where do you read that in the document?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I can't read because I

17     can't see the letters on the screen.  I was listening to the Prosecutor

18     and this is how I understood things.  I can't read anything that is in

19     front of me.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, if I may.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It was suggested to this gentleman --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  -- that this man was captured.

Page 26682

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Where we can read that from this document?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- I don't have to answer any questions.

 4     There is no --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  There is no trace in this document that he was

 6     captured.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  It was suggested --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I do not comment on that.  The Prosecution in

10     cross-examination can put leading questions to the witness and you --

11             MR. LUKIC:  But they cannot misrepresent the document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's one step too far.  That is --

13             MR. LUKIC:  It's our position that from this document --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It's your position --

15             MR. LUKIC:  -- it's not clear whether he was just captured or he

16     was just wounded and then found wounded.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And then asking for food, you'd say.  He's about to

18     die and then he say he was looking for food.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's your interpretation of the document.  Okay.

21     That's fine.  The witness wasn't present.  The way in which you want to

22     interpret this document is -- both parties can do as they wish.  Whether

23     the witness can assist us and not having any personal knowledge of the

24     matter is another question.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, that's why I asked him whether it's

Page 26683

 1     visible from this document that this man is captured where it cannot be

 2     read from this document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's an interpretation of the document,

 4     Mr. Lukic, and that is what you and Mr. MacDonald and the Chamber will do

 5     itself and not to ask a witness --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, but the -- the matter was raised and the door

 7     was opened --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  There was --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  -- for me to clarify this and --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  There was a suggestion in the question that this is

11     what had happened.  Whether the suggestion is right or wrong is another

12     matter.  Mr. Lukic, I think that we all agree that liquidating captured

13     people, irrespective of whether the document says so, that that is

14     considered by the witness not to be in line with the Geneva Conventions

15     and let's leave it to that.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Please proceed.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question to ask the witness before we

20     proceed.

21             Sir, sir, Mr. Witness, would the liquidation of an unarmed

22     Ustasha be in conformity with the Geneva Conventions?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, if he had been taken prisoner.

24     If he's on the run, then anything goes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do not add anything to my question.  I'm asking

Page 26684

 1     you a simple question:  Would the liquidation of an unarmed Ustasha be in

 2     conformity with the Geneva Conventions?  I don't know whether he's

 3     captured or he's not captured.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my view your question is

 5     ambiguous, but no.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Since you are criticising the question, the question

 7     is not ambiguous.  A simple question:  If an Ustasha is observed to be

 8     unarmed, liquidating him, would that be in conformity with the

 9     Geneva Conventions?  That was the question.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And I insist on an answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It would not be in conformity with

12     the Geneva Conventions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, you're on your feet.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  And my apologies, Your Honours.  It's simply a

18     transcript matter.  At temporary transcript 8 when my friend was talking

19     about the location, he said "near Banja Luka" or that's -- sorry, that's

20     the translation that I heard and I'm not certain what my friend said, but

21     I presume he said "near Luka" and that it's simply a transcript matter.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is hereby on the record.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know, Mr. Jankovic, that Muslim fighters

Page 26685

 1     were taking weapons from their dead and wounded?

 2        A.   I don't understand your question.  Could you please repeat?

 3        Q.   In the course of the fighting that the Muslim forces were engaged

 4     in, do you know that the Muslims would take the weapons from those who

 5     had fallen who were either dead or wounded and those same weapons were

 6     then reused by other people?

 7        A.   Yes, I know that.  It's correct.

 8        Q.   Do you know and is it in conformity with the Geneva Conventions

 9     when one opens fire on a group of people that is firing upon you, if

10     somebody from that group is firing upon you, do you have to check whether

11     everybody in the group is armed or not?

12        A.   No, you don't have to check that.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And now let me ask you --

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P2229.

15        Q.   You were questioned about this same document yesterday.  My

16     learned friend from the Prosecutor's Office, on transcript page number

17     26667, suggested that this document shows that there are five centres

18     where people in Rogatica were detained.  We see that on transcript

19     page 26667, line 8, and I'm going to quote the question first.

20             [In English] "... he then goes on to enumerate five such centres

21     including the former nursery-garden, the building of the malt-house

22     factory, the building of the high school, CJB Rogatica, and the building

23     named the rectory."

24             [Interpretation] I will go through the document with you.  Under

25     1, the facility referred to is the former nursery, Rasadnik.  Thank you.

Page 26686

 1     Now we have what was said yesterday and we also have the B/C/S version of

 2     the same.  CJB, which is referred to in here.  I don't see anywhere where

 3     it says that people were detained there.  I'm going to read a sentence

 4     where the CJB is mentioned.

 5             "During the" --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  I haven't posed the question yet.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I don't know.  But Mr. MacDonald is on his

 9     feet.  I don't know for what reason.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  I'm sorry to interrupt, Your Honours.  My friend

11     stated that I said that this document shows there are five centres where

12     people in Rogatica were detained.  The quotation that he gives, from what

13     I can see, I simply read the -- from the first paragraph stating there

14     are collection centres where people of Bosniak nationality stayed.  His

15     question seems to be on the premise that I stated that people there were

16     detained.  I do not believe that I used that word, Your Honours.

17             MR. LUKIC:  But there was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  There was no mention of five in this paragraph and I

20     have to go through each and every single one.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I cut this -- could I cut this short.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's listen to the answer.  The witness I think

24     said that he was aware only of the ones he mentioned.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, one or two.

Page 26687

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the -- yes, one or two.  That's the evidence

 2     of this witness.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether or not this document shows, and I understand

 5     your doubts, Mr. Lukic, whether this document shows that there were five,

 6     well, the witness has answered -- has given his knowledge and that's a

 7     matter of argument and debate.  And I fully understand, to be quite

 8     transparent, this same thing came to my mind when the questions were

 9     asked, but whether this document shows that there were more is not for

10     the witness to answer who says I know of only one or two.  If it is

11     misrepresentation of this --

12             MR. LUKIC:  It's --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- document --

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's absolute misrepresentation of this --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.  Again, this is a matter of

16     interpreting the document.  The witness has given his knowledge and he

17     says there were only one or two, as far as he knows.  And whether the

18     document shows that there were more is not something the witness, unless

19     you expect any specific knowledge --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I do.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- about it.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I do.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please focus your question very

24     clearly --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 26688

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on the personal knowledge of the witness.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   The document reads, Mr. Jankovic, during that period the

 4     management structure of the SJB Rogatica consisted of Mladen Vasiljevic,

 5     the chief of the SJB, and Markic Lado [phoen], the police commander.  Do

 6     you know that civilians were accommodated in the building of the police

 7     in Rogatica and that they were kept there?

 8        A.   The police station in Rogatica did not have any room to keep

 9     people there.  You can still see that even today.  And I claim with full

10     responsibility that nobody was ever detained there because there was no

11     room for such an exercise.

12        Q.   Thank you.  It reads further on:

13             {As read] "The Sladara building in the course of May and June

14     1992 was the seat of the Crisis Staff and Milorad Sokolovic held the

15     position of the president of the aforementioned body," a man from

16     Rogatica.

17             This is the context within which the malt-house or Sladara is

18     mentioned within this document.  Do you know whether there were any

19     civilians kept in the building where the seat of the Crisis Staff was?

20        A.   I claim with full responsibility that that was not the case.

21        Q.   You spoke about the high school in Rogatica, the Veljko Vlahovic

22     high school, and you said that civilians indeed stayed there.  Number 5,

23     the fifth facility that was suggested to you as a facility where

24     civilians were kept, and you said that people were just received there

25     and then sent to other places from there.  It says in this document:

Page 26689

 1             [As read] "The building of the rectory, i.e. the old rectory

 2     house in the street of B. Raskovic, was functioning after a few days of

 3     the armed conflict in the area of Gracanica settlement in Rogatica most

 4     probably after the 19th of, 1992."

 5             Do you adhere to what you previously said and that's that people

 6     were not kept there?

 7        A.   The Serbian Orthodox church would not allow people to stay there,

 8     but people were received there to be safe for a while, but they did not

 9     stay for any longer time.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P6774.

11        Q.   You mentioned a third category of people who kept on moving out

12     after the fighting had started.  Did somebody stay in Rogatica as well?

13        A.   There were such people.  There were girls who got married there

14     and then for their Serbian beaus [Realtime transcript read in

15     error "bos"].

16        Q.   Were there entire Muslim villages where people stayed?

17        A.   Yes, Burati, Satorovici, Zepa.  Several villages in Rogatica

18     municipality remained fully Muslim.  Those were loyal Muslim villages and

19     people expressed their wish to stay.

20        Q.   And now the last document, P1064.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go to P1604.

22             I just want to ask, sir, at page 18 line 11 to 12 you say:

23             "There were such people.  There were girls who got married there

24     and then for their Serbian bos."

25             I'm not quite sure I understand what "Serbian bos" are.  Are you

Page 26690

 1     able to explain that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, I am asking you.  You may very well have been

 4     misrecorded, but if you were you can repeat your answer.  But you are

 5     recorded as having said:

 6             "There were girls who got married there and then for their

 7     Serbian bos."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Their boyfriends.  They had already

 9     been going out.  When the war started, the girls expressed their wish to

10     marry those lads that they had been going out with, their beaus from

11     before, and they still lived there.  They have children.  They are

12     happily married.  Maybe you misunderstood me.  But I'm talking about

13     those girls who had been going out with Serbian lads before the war and

14     decided to marry them.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  Thank you so much.  That explains the

16     point there.  So where you are recorded as saying "bos" you actually mean

17     "boys."  That's what you said.  Thank you so much.

18             And then, Mr. Lukic.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would stay with this

20     document for a second.  [Interpretation] But this has nothing to do with

21     your question.

22        Q.   It was suggested to you that that was a transport of Muslims.  It

23     says in the second paragraph, certain number of civilians from the local

24     communities gathered and they were transported to Sarajevo, Bijeljina,

25     Olovo, and some of them to Zepa, and that happened after a sufficient

Page 26691

 1     number of civilian population was gathered.  You have organised their

 2     transport.  Could you tell us the ethnicity of the people who were driven

 3     to Bijeljina, if you know?

 4        A.   I don't know that anyone was driven to Bijeljina.  The people who

 5     had expressed to leave both the Serbs and the Muslims --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't know.  That's the answer to the question.

 7             Please proceed.  Next question, Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I just need now document P1064.  And this is more for

 9     the record, Your Honours.  We would inquire who translated this document

10     because obviously the document was changed.  There is a remark in the

11     translation we do not have in the document, but it says:

12             "Derogatory term for the Bosnian Muslims."

13             So if this is done by the Prosecution, we would kindly ask for

14     this document just draft translation to be sent to the CLSS and for this

15     remark to be redacted.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have dealt with the matter of explanation

17     of certain terms.  Is it -- let's try to have matters straight.

18     Irrespective of whether it should be -- this explanation should be in the

19     translation, yes or no, sometimes you know that the linguistical

20     explanation is given for terms which are not directly -- which cannot be

21     directly translated into another language, so therefore the original word

22     remains and then it's explained what that word means.  That happens now

23     and then.

24             I think we have dealt with the matter before.  But before

25     verifying what our solution was at the time, is there a dispute, is

Page 26692

 1     "balijas" -- is that not a derogatory term for Bosnian Muslims?  That's

 2     my question, Mr. Lukic.  Is that the Defence's position?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I have to say that -- and I come from Bosnia.  I have

 4     to say that many people understand this term in a different ways.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You say there is not one --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  There is not one --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- uniform understanding of this word.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I can tell you that Muslims would call another

 9     Muslims "balijas."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That doesn't mean that it's not derogatory.

11             MR. LUKIC:  It does not but --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I have heard similar --

13             MR. LUKIC:  It really can --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

15             MR. LUKIC:  -- have several meanings.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The question, of course, is then what is the

17     prevailing meaning.

18             MR. LUKIC:  And we have heard --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We leave it to that.  And I have heard that the

20     position of the Defence, which does not depend on where you come from,

21     but is a position taken by the Defence, could by anyone, that the

22     Defence's position is that this is -- the term "balijas" is understood in

23     different ways by different persons.

24             We'll verify again what we did in previous instances because it's

25     not the first time that the matter arises.

Page 26693

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And that's all I had --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  -- for this witness.  I just wanted to thank him in

 4     our language.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then --

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Jankovic, thank you for answering our questions and I have no

 8     further questions for you.  Thank you again.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

10             Before I give you an opportunity -- would you have any further

11     questions, Mr. MacDonald?

12             MR. MacDONALD:  No further questions, Your Honour.  I would have

13     one quick remark to make, if I could.  And simply that the word

14     "misrepresent" is quite strong in my home jurisdiction, and I would just

15     like to say I don't believe I did misrepresented any evidence.  If I did,

16     my sincere apologies to the Court.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's a conditional apology.  Let's not bother

18     the witness with that at this very moment.

19             Witness, I have one matter which is still not clear to me.

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you told us that you were called

22     approximately the 20th of April to the TO and within a few days you

23     witnessed the distribution of arms.  You also told us that on the 20th of

24     May you became a member of the VRS.  In paragraph 4 of your statement,

25     you told us that the distribution of arms, so the arming organised by the

Page 26694

 1     Territorial Defence, lasted two to three months.  What then approximately

 2     is the starting point in terms of time?  Did it start before you were

 3     called on the 20th of April?  Did it start at that time?  Did it start

 4     two or three months before you joined the VRS?  Could you be a bit more

 5     precise even without knowing exact dates but linking it to certain events

 6     when these two or three months of arming took place?

 7        A.   In my statement I said, and it can be checked, that I did not

 8     remember the exact date when I joined the VRS.  However, yesterday I said

 9     that in the certificate that I received it states that I was a member of

10     the VRS from the 20th of May 1996 [as interpreted].  So when all the work

11     stopped on the 20th of April, that's when the arming started.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, your reference to 1996, I suppose, should be

13     the 20th of May, 1992.  Perhaps that's a transcript error.

14        A.   I'm sorry.  Yes, it's a wrong date.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say arming started on the 20th of April.

16        A.   As of the 20th of April.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean that there was no arming in March;

18     is that correct?

19        A.   Only soldiers who were mobilised had weapons and they were

20     waiting to be dispatched to a unit in Han Pijesak according to their

21     assignments and also people who had some personal weapons.  I don't know

22     that there was any arming of the population prior to that date.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  From who were these weapons received?

24        A.   I believe that it was issued by the Territorial Defence.  I don't

25     know exactly how it was distributed, but I think that it was the weapons

Page 26695

 1     at the disposal of the Rogatica TO.  I am not quite sure but I believe

 2     that that was the case.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But from whom did the Rogatica TO receive those

 4     weapons?

 5        A.   I already said following the distribution of weapons that had

 6     existed in Rogatica municipality in the joint TO and the joint police

 7     station, the reserve personnel also had some weapons with them.  So this

 8     part of the TO weapons, this arsenal, I don't know how it was

 9     distributed, I never inquired where the weapons had come from but I think

10     they came from the Territorial Defence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But what then exactly does the sentence mean:  "I

12     was called when some of the weapons were received"?  If you say it was

13     the TO, you were the TO, weren't you?

14        A.   That is correct.  The weapons were not distributed in the town

15     but rather people who were in charge of taking over the weapons were

16     called to come to certain check-points.  That was myself and

17     Milos Jankovic, a cousin of mine, were among those people.  We received

18     weapons at the point in Pljesevica, and, as I said, we also gave weapons

19     to the people whom we trusted and believed that they would not abuse it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And those were people not at check-points.  In what

21     position were those people exactly, people you trusted?

22        A.   These were the people who were good heads of household, who were

23     not prone to misuse of alcohol, who had no problems, mental or otherwise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But in what positions were they?

25        A.   I don't understand the question.  They were along the defence

Page 26696

 1     lines in the Pljesevica village.  That's where they were deployed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But were they TO members as well or were they

 3     unorganised or ...?

 4        A.   We organised people in order to protect ourselves.  I did not

 5     know their disposition.  I supposed that a number of them were members of

 6     the TO as per establishment.  After serving in the army I became a member

 7     of the TO, and Meho Agic was my direct superior until the split took

 8     place.  So I don't know all the people who were there, but I know that

 9     they were deployed along the defence lines of the village.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say you distributed arms to persons of

11     which you did not know whether they were members of the TO but just

12     because they were defending their village lines, is that well understood?

13        A.   Yes.  But I claim that at that point in time we were all the TO

14     because the war had already started.  We did not join any of the military

15     units but rather placed ourselves at the disposal of the

16     Territorial Defence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So you didn't know whether they were TO members but

18     you considered everyone to be available to support TO activities?

19        A.   That is correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that mean that good house fathers, that the

21     whole community in order to defend their villages were provided with

22     weapons unless they were known to be irresponsible persons?

23        A.   I am talking about the very beginning.  These were small

24     quantities of weapons and people who were going to receive them were

25     selected.  The weapons were to be left there according to the law so that

Page 26697

 1     others can use them.  It wasn't that a person could keep a weapon with

 2     themselves unendingly.  Once we set up a brigade, that's when larger

 3     quantities of weapons started to come in.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And when was that?

 5        A.   May or June.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now if you say this distribution of weapons lasted

 7     for two or three months and that apparently is not the same distribution

 8     of weapons as happened in May and June, this brings me back to March,

 9     April, perhaps even late February.  Do you have any comment on my

10     understanding of the chronology?

11        A.   Yes.  Before March and February, a certain number of weapons were

12     distributed to the reserve police force in the villages and also it was

13     given to people who were mobilised and who were also deployed in

14     villages.  But I claim with full responsibility that the first weapons

15     received from the TO, Rajko Kusic personally distributed the weapons to

16     us, and I think that they had come from the initial quantities, the small

17     quantities that arrived from the TO.  Later on, the weapons were

18     collected at Borike.  I don't know where it came from.  That was sometime

19     in June.  And at Borike, the weapons were given to the people.  So I

20     cannot say that the people were all armed on the 20th April.  Those were

21     only small quantities at the time.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you understand to be small quantities?

23        A.   Up to 20 pieces of weapon.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Twenty pieces of weapons for the whole of the

25     population under which they were distributed or for a village?

Page 26698

 1        A.   Only for my village of Pljesevica.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Which had how many inhabitants?

 3        A.   Pljesevica has 130 households, times four, let's say about 500

 4     inhabitants.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 6             You wanted to make an observation?

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  My apologies, Your Honour.  It was just about the

 8     word "misrepresent."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  It was about misrepresentation.  Sorry

10     that I had not ...

11             Mr. Lukic, no further questions, I understand.

12             Mr. Jankovic, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I

13     would like to thank you very much for having coming a long way to

14     The Hague and for having answered all the questions that were put to you

15     by the parties and by the Bench and I wish you a safe return home again.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Have a good day.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Although we should take a break now, the Chamber was

18     informed that there was a matter to be raised in private session.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, if that matter has any impact on how we will

21     proceed after the break, perhaps it's better to know it now.

22             Ms. Bibles.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think it may make sense to

24     proceed now rather than after the break on this quick preliminary.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's a matter of minutes?

Page 26699

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we move into private session.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

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 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

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Page 26700

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21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 26701

 1             Since we went on longer than usual, we'll take a slightly longer

 2     break of 25 minutes, so we'll resume at 10 minutes past 11.00, but I

 3     already announce now that in order to make protective measures effective

 4     that we'll start in closed session at 10 minutes past 11.00 and then soon

 5     after that, once the witness has taken the stand, we'll move into open

 6     session again.

 7             We take a break.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.47 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

10                           [Closed session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

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23   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 26702











11  Pages 26702-26703 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 26704

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10   (redacted)

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19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

25             Witness GRM277, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 26705

 1     You'll find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 2             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D05231

 7     from 65 ter list.  The document should not be broadcast.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to come

 9     closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're invited to come a bit closer to the

11     microphone.  Perhaps the usher could assist.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Witness, please look at the document.  Don't read it aloud.  Just

14     look at it and tell us whether the information contained in the document

15     is accurate and correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

19     tender this document into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Under seal, please.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D5231 receives number D684,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D684 is admitted under seal.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 26706

 1        Q.   And now I have a few questions for you, Madam.  Did you give a

 2     statement to the Mladic Defence in a written form?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up

 5     1D01657.  Again, the document should not be broadcast.

 6        Q.   Witness, what you see before you, is this your signature?  Is the

 7     information on this page accurate?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now can we look at the last

11     page of the same document?

12        Q.   The same question, Madam.  Is this your signature and did you

13     enter the date in your own hand?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I have a few questions for you.  Can we zoom in on

16     paragraph 3 in your statement.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber while you

17     were being proofed for today's testimony, did you tell me that something

18     should be changed in paragraph 3?  We are talking about a semantic

19     change.  In the last sentence behind the words "that guarded two

20     buildings," instead of the words "the neighbourhood was a Muslim

21     cemetery" should be replaced who -- "which were in the Muslim cemetery"?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Again, could you please look at paragraph 6.  Did you

24     tell me that in the last sentence of this paragraph where it says, and I

25     quote, "where Serbs were taken," these words should be replaced "and

Page 26707

 1     Serbs were taken to the correctional facility"?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, to be able to understand the

 4     sentence better, could you please read the entire sentence in the new

 5     version?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The new

 7     sentence should read:

 8             "At that time the medical centre and the correctional facility

 9     were under Muslim control and Serbs were taken to the correctional

10     facility."

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   And then in paragraph 10, did you suggest that in the penultimate

14     sentence the words, and I quote, "I remember that" should be eliminated

15     and replaced by the following words at the end, after the comma, the word

16     "office" should be replaced, and I quote "of this unit which was

17     headquartered in the hotel."

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   For the record, I would like to read the newly-worded sentence:

20             "During that time, there was a duty office of this unit which was

21     headquartered in the hotel."

22             Would that be true to what you remember?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please clarify if the

Page 26708

 1     remainder of that sentence still stands which reads:

 2             "... I know that orders came from the Foca Territorial Defence

 3     Staff."

 4             Is that still part of the statement?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think I know but I will ask

 6     the witness.

 7        Q.   The remainder of the witness after the comma where it says, "...

 8     I know that orders came from the Foca Territorial Defence Staff," would

 9     those words remain as part of your statement?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And now, Witness, that we have made these

12     corrections, as you're sitting today in this courtroom and after having

13     taken the solemn declaration to speak the truth about the events, would

14     you adhere to the answers provided in the statement?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave I

18     would like to tender this 65 ter document 1D01657 under seal.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections?  No objections.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1657 receives number D685,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

24             Mr. Stojanovic, nevertheless I would have one or two questions

25     for the witness in this context.

Page 26709

 1             You said the duty office was located in the hotel.  Which hotel

 2     are you referring to?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the hotel in Foca.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  There is one hotel in Foca?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now my next question would be you corrected

 7     now.  When you signed it, did you not notice that, these shortcomings in

 8     the statement?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember but I believe that

10     I noticed the same thing at the time.  There is just one hotel in Foca

11     and there was just one office in that hotel.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But when you signed the document which, if I

13     understand well was in June of this year, a couple of months after you

14     were interviewed, when you signed it, did you make any -- did you note at

15     that time or did you inform those who had interviewed you or took your

16     signature that there was still corrections to be made?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe so but maybe I skimmed

18     through the document too fast.  That may be my own mistake, really.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you given sufficient time to read through it?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

22             Any further questions, Mr. Stojanovic?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours,

24     perhaps this would be a good moment for me to read a summary of the

25     witness's statement.

Page 26710

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Witness GRM277 is a nurse by education.  When the war started in

 4     Foca, she was a member of the medical personnel at the department of

 5     internal medicine of the Foca medical centre.  On the eve of the breakout

 6     of the conflicts in Foca, the situation in hospital was more or less

 7     normal but the witness realised that already March 1992 some of the

 8     colleagues had started sending their children away, both Serbs and

 9     Muslims.

10             At the beginning of April 1992 when fighting started in Foca, she

11     was invited to come to work so she managed to get to the hospital under

12     fire.  She stayed in the hospital for the next fortnight and she noticed

13     that only Muslim patients came to the hospital as well as women and

14     children who were not sick but they were looking for a safe haven because

15     of all the fighting that was already going on in town.

16             Once the blockade was lifted of this facility and when the Serb

17     forces took over control of the hospital, the Muslim population that was

18     there and wanted to leave the town was allowed to leave Foca with their

19     families in their cars or in any other means of transportation available

20     to them.

21             During the night before the hospital and the correctional

22     facility were deblocked, the Muslims who were in the hospital and who

23     controlled the correctional facility fled from those two facilities.

24     During that period, the witness also worked in the infirmary that was

25     organised by the Territorial Defence of Foca.  And she provided care to

Page 26711

 1     the Dragan Nikolic unit.  She personally knows that at the time this unit

 2     received orders from the TO Foca staff.  Those orders were verbal.

 3             And finally, the witness eye-witnessed the unlawful activities of

 4     individuals who had arrived from Montenegro and who were warned to leave

 5     the territory of Foca municipality.  The witness inferred from that that

 6     there were renegade individuals at the time.

 7             Thank you.  This is a short summary of the witness's statement,

 8     and with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to put several questions

 9     to the witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up D685.

12     The document should not be broadcast.  I'm interested in paragraph 10.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  D685, I had not mentioned but now add, so that

14     it's clear on the record, that it was admitted under seal.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at paragraph 10.

17        Q.   Witness, can you tell the Court what your duties were?  What did

18     you do for the Dragan Nikolic unit?  First of all, when were you attached

19     to provide medical assistance to the members of this unit?

20        A.   After the moment the blockade was lifted off the hospital, we

21     could leave the hospital.  There was no personnel in any of the

22     infirmaries.  I would go to the outpatients clinic and to the

23     Dragan Nikolic unit and I would still be on duty at the hospital.

24        Q.   When you went to the Dragan Nikolic unit, where did you actually

25     go?  Where did you assist the Dragan Nikolic unit members?

Page 26712

 1        A.   Wherever needed.  I don't know what you mean.  I went on house

 2     calls, or in the office, in the field, wherever needed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you administered medical assistance to

 4     the members of this unit in the field.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Does this mean that you joined this unit and went to the places

 7     where they were engaged in combat?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Until when did you -- provided medical assistance to this unit

10     members?

11        A.   Until the very end.

12        Q.   For the record, when you say "until the very end," what do you

13     mean?  Until when?

14        A.   For as long as needed because that unit stopped existing at one

15     point in time.  There were very few men in that unit.  When that unit was

16     disbanded, I can't tell you.  I don't know when it stopped existing.

17        Q.   In the course of your work that you described, did you ever

18     receive any orders or instructions from superior officers in any form of

19     exercises, discrimination against the sick or the wounded based on their

20     ethnicity?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   While you were doing your job, and I mean both within the

23     hospital and with the unit, did you notice any unlawful or inhumane

24     treatment of the members of the units that you provided medical care for?

25        A.   No.

Page 26713

 1        Q.   Thank you, Madam.  We have no further questions for you at the

 2     moment.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             Ms. Bibles, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness GRM277, you'll now be cross-examined by

 7     Ms. Bibles.  Ms. Bibles, and you'll find her to your right, is counsel

 8     for the Prosecution.

 9                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

10        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   First, I have some questions about medical institutions in Foca

13     municipality.  Before the war, is it accurate to say that there was both

14     a hospital and a medical centre?

15        A.   And a medical centre?

16        Q.   I'm looking at paragraph 6 of your statement where you talk about

17     the medical centre.  I was trying to ascertain whether that is a

18     different place than the hospital in Foca.

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20        Q.   And then you've testified that Serb units secured the Foca

21     hospital.  Do you believe that was around the 7 April of 1992?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   I can tell you that the Chamber has received evidence quite

24     recently from an individual named Miladin Gagovic that there were Serb

25     units securing the hospital as early as 7 April 1992.  Does that assist

Page 26714

 1     in your recollections as to when these Serb units secured the hospital?

 2        A.   No, no.  This is the first time I hear of it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, you did put to the witness that the Serb

 4     units secured the Foca hospital.  Reading paragraph 8, it is about

 5     lifting a blockade which I have some difficulties in reconciling with

 6     securing.  But I must admit that there is no time-frame there as there is

 7     not in most of the statement.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  And that's part of what I was trying to reconcile as

 9     well, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please proceed.

11             MS. BIBLES:  And perhaps if we could -- well, I'll actually move

12     on, Your Honour.

13        Q.   At some point during that time-frame, April-May 1992, were you

14     mobilised to provide medical assistance to the Dragan Nikolic unit?

15        A.   In April, when the war started, I was working at the hospital --

16     actually, I was to be on the night shift.  A car was sent to fetch me

17     because there was no movement around the time -- the night.  We stayed

18     there for 10 or 15 days because the hospital was blocked.  Only the

19     ambulance went to the town.  The only information we received was over

20     Radio Sarajevo.  We didn't even get any food supplies.

21        Q.   Ma'am, I perhaps was not clear enough.  At some point were you

22     mobilised to provide medical assistance to the Dragan Nikolic unit?

23        A.   In April?

24        Q.   At any point.  Let's start there.

25        A.   I don't understand you.

Page 26715

 1        Q.   Were you personally mobilised either before or during the war to

 2     provide medical assistance?

 3        A.   Yes, during the war.  But not before the war.  This unit did not

 4     even exist at the time, as far as I know.

 5        Q.   Now, I do have a few brief questions about your work with the

 6     Dragan Nikolic unit which you mention in paragraphs 10 and 11 of your

 7     statement.  Now, is it correct that this was a military unit?

 8        A.   During the first month it was not a military unit.  It was not

 9     the army.  These were self-organised groups, to the best of my knowledge.

10     I went there only when and if needed.

11        Q.   When and if needed, is that prior to them -- the unit becoming

12     part of the military?

13        A.   Well, yes.  That's the end of April, beginning of May.

14        Q.   So after they became part of the military, is that when you were

15     mobilised and became -- and started working with this unit?

16        A.   Look, these units that were there, when certain structure came

17     into place in June or July, those were not proper units.  Those were just

18     self-organised groups of, let's say, some younger men, and this

19     particular Dragan Nikolic unit only had one room in the hotel.

20        Q.   And by the way, was this the hotel, is it Zelengora?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Going back to the Dragan Nikolic unit, did you have a good

23     relationship with the members of that unit?

24        A.   One could say so while I was working in the field and being with

25     them.

Page 26716

 1        Q.   And I would like to go through some names and ask you whether

 2     they were members of this unit.  Did you know Radomir Kovac and was he a

 3     member of this unit?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5        Q.   Dragan Zelenovic?

 6        A.   He was a member on and off.  He was not a permanent member of the

 7     unit.  He used to come and go.

 8        Q.   Zoran Vukovic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And Jagos Kostic, was he also a member?

11        A.   The same thing with him.  He was not a permanent member.  He

12     would just come and go.

13        Q.   But at some point he was a member of this unit and he worked with

14     Radomir Kovac while he was with the unit; is that correct?

15        A.   I don't know what you mean by "he worked."  I knew these guys

16     whilst they were in the field and when they needed my assistance and this

17     man that you mentioned, Kovac, he would just occasionally come to the

18     unit and I don't know what his duties were.

19        Q.   When he was with the unit, you would agree that he worked with

20     Radomir Kovac; is that correct?

21        A.   Both with Radomir Kovac and everybody else.  I don't know what

22     other kind of co-operation you can have in the field.

23        Q.   That answers my question.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but, Ms. Bibles, there is -- "when he was with

25     the unit," the last person the witness referred to was Kovac, although in

Page 26717

 1     your question, originally, it was Kostic.  Did you see Kostic and Kovac

 2     together in that unit?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were all together.  There was no

 4     separation.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MS. BIBLES:

 8        Q.   Turning back to Radomir Kovac, did you meet him --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could --

10             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask the parties to assist me.  Did I hear

12     the witness say "they were all together" or "we were all together"?  I

13     think I heard "they were all together."

14             When you said there was no separation, did you say "they were all

15     together" or did you say "we were all together"?  Just repeat what you

16     said.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was there, and that's the

18     only time that I can speak of, when I was in the field.  I cannot tell

19     you anything about what happened in the field when I was away, whether

20     they were together or not.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you referred to them being together, not

22     there being no separation?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no separation.

24     Nobody stood out individually as being closer to one individual and less

25     close to another.  You know how it is.

Page 26718

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I leave it to that.

 2             Please proceed, Ms. Bibles.

 3             MS. BIBLES:

 4        Q.   Turning back to Radomir Kovac, did you meet him at the garrison

 5     clinic?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, when we say "garrison," at the beginning of the war in

 8     April of 1992 you're referring to the Foca Territorial Defence garrison;

 9     is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Where specifically was the clinic located?

12        A.   At that time when war started in Foca municipality, I don't know

13     how familiar you are with the town, the hospital is outside of the town.

14     You have to pass by the KP facility on the way to the hospital, and

15     together with the medical clinic this area was populated by Muslims, and

16     initially they considered that to be theirs.  And at that time only

17     Muslims were admitted to the hospital, specifically women and children.

18     During that time we didn't even have enough food.  After that the Foca

19     Territorial Defence organised themselves outside of Foca, and in a

20     restaurant outside of Foca they set up an infirmary for the wounded

21     members of the Serbian community.

22        Q.   I would like to follow-up on that, then.  After the hospital came

23     within Serb control, where did the infirmary for these units, the

24     military units, go to?

25        A.   The people, the local residents.

Page 26719

 1        Q.   When you talk about -- when we were talking about the garrison

 2     clinic, where was that located after it left the initial, I believe you

 3     called it, a restaurant or cafe?  Where did it go after that time?

 4        A.   They remained for a lengthy period of time there, then the

 5     medical clinic was liberated and it started operating as a proper medical

 6     clinic.

 7        Q.   And going back to the beginning of the war in April when you

 8     first met the unit, did they wear olive-drab SNB uniforms?

 9        A.   No.

10             MS. BIBLES:  I'd like to go to 65 ter 31446 [Realtime transcript

11     read in error "13446"] please.  And we'll be looking at page 9.

12        Q.   Witness --

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise to my learned

16     friend, but the answer in line 4, page 48, I didn't hear clearly and I'm

17     afraid that this does not reflect the answer.  If it could be -- please

18     be repeated.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps I -- you were asked and there is some

20     doubt as to what exactly your answer was.  You were asked:

21             "Going back to the beginning of the war in April when you first

22     met the unit, did they wear olive-drab SNB uniforms?"

23             What was your answer to that question.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's what the transcript tells us,

Page 26720

 1     Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in civilian clothes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ms. Bibles, what was the number of the 65 ter

 6     number you asked for?

 7             MS. BIBLES:  31446.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's written 13 on the transcript.

 9             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you for the correction, Your Honour.  If we

10     could go to 31446, page 9, please.  And not for broadcast, I'm sorry.

11     Although I believe this may have been an open session, but we'll err on

12     the side of caution for the moment.

13        Q.   Witness, we have in front of us your testimony from your -- the

14     previous case in which you were here, and I'd like to start reading at

15     page -- excuse me, at line 2 you were asked about Radomir Kovac:

16             "Q.  Since you saw him during the war, what did he wear at the

17     time?"

18             Your answer:

19             "During the first days, he wore that SNB uniform, a green one.

20     Everybody wore that.  And only after a longer period of time -- I cannot

21     tell you exactly how long this was, but this was in the beginning.  After

22     that they got some kind of camouflage uniforms that they wore out in the

23     field."

24             Does this refresh your recollection as to the uniforms worn by

25     the members of this unit?

Page 26721

 1        A.   The majority -- but now whether someone due to indigence put on

 2     the SNB uniform or where they had acquired it from -- but the majority of

 3     these young men were dressed in civilian clothes, in blue jeans and

 4     jackets.  Now, as for what I said here, I don't know if -- well, you know

 5     that up until August even they used to wear their civilian clothes.

 6        Q.   Do you stand by your testimony from before that at some point,

 7     and I believe you've just said at least by August of 1992, they had some

 8     kind of camouflage uniforms that they wore in the field?

 9        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't hear you well.

10        Q.   Do you stand by your testimony from before that at some point,

11     and I believe you've just said at least by August of 1992, they had some

12     kind of camouflage uniforms that they wore in the field?

13        A.   Well, let me tell you this:  Everybody purchased and what was

14     affordable to them.  They just found a way around it.  I myself didn't

15     have a uniform almost ever.

16        Q.   So I guess I'm not clear, are you modifying the answer that you

17     gave before?

18        A.   No, I'm not modifying it.  What am I modifying?  I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Witness, it's a bit -- the testimony in the

20     other case was read to you in which you are referring to the period after

21     the beginning, and you said:

22             "After that they got some kind of camouflage uniforms that they

23     wore out in the field."

24             Now you say that everyone bought what was affordable, but at that

25     time you said they got uniforms and that's what they wore.  Are you

Page 26722

 1     changing that at this moment or are you still standing by that answer?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know if you

 3     understand me.  You know, there was no issuing of uniforms.  For example,

 4     I received the first uniform as late as in September because nobody gave

 5     me one before that, and where these people got hold of uniforms, I don't

 6     know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Whether they paid for it, whether they --

 8     where they got it, from whom they got it, but they had those uniforms on

 9     from August and they were --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- wearing -- well, in your testimony you said,

12     "After that they got some kind of camouflage uniforms that they wore out

13     in the field," which suggests that you saw them wearing those uniforms.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't know the source of

15     the uniforms, how they acquired them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No one asked you for that.  We are just interested

17     in hearing from you what you saw and what you know.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Similarly, I put it to you that when talking about

20     the beginning in your previous statement you were talking about during

21     the first days that they were wearing SNB uniforms, a green one,

22     everybody wore that, whereas now you tell us that in the beginning they

23     were wearing civilian clothes or at least some or many of them which, of

24     course, is not the same.  If you say everybody wore that uniform, that

25     means they were not in civilian dress.  I just want to draw your

Page 26723

 1     attention to the fact that --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then most probably at that time

 3     maybe I was nervous and didn't understand the question properly.  So ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this question at that time simply was "what

 5     did he wear at the time," apparently talking about Kovac, and then you

 6     added yourself, after having described the uniform he was dressed in,

 7     that everybody wore that.  So you hardly can be -- have been confused by

 8     that question because it was something you added yourself spontaneously.

 9             I just draw your attention to the fact that the testimony as we

10     read it from the transcript is not fully consistent with what you're

11     telling us now.

12             Ms. Bibles, please proceed.

13             MS. BIBLES:

14        Q.   And I wanted to go back to something that you've said in this

15     discussion, and I believe you said:

16             "I received the first uniform as late as September ..."

17             Did you receive a camouflage uniform in September of 1992?

18        A.   [No interpretation]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand the witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, witness.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A camouflage uniform?

22             MS. BIBLES:

23        Q.   Is your answer yes you received a camouflage uniform in

24     September of 1992?

25        A.   Well, again we have to be careful which words we use.  I can't

Page 26724

 1     tell you whether I got it in this way or another or I don't know.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But the uniform you received, as you said, in

 3     September, in whatever way, was a camouflage uniform?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, whether that was exactly in

 7     September.  But I know that for quite some time I wore civilian clothes,

 8     whether it was in September or later, and I didn't think that it was

 9     important for me to remember.

10             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I have about ten minutes left and I

11     note the time.  I would defer to the Trial Chamber as to whether to

12     proceed or take a break --

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MS. BIBLES:  I apologise.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We would continue after a break, but Judge Moloto

17     would first put a question to the witness.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, do you remember from whom you received

19     this camouflage uniform?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Whenever I went to the office,

21     it was lying there and they gave it to me.  I have no idea who was the

22     one exactly who provided it and I was interested to know that, after all.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll first take a break.

25             But for you to leave the courtroom without anyone seeing your

Page 26725

 1     face, we'll first turn into closed session, then you'll leave the

 2     courtroom, and we'll resume at 25 minutes to 1.00.  And we again will

 3     start for a minute in closed session.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

17             Ms. Bibles, you may proceed.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   In paragraph 10 of your statement, you advise that assignments

20     came from the Foca Territorial Defence Staff.  That was true at the

21     beginning of the war in Foca; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  As far as I can be of assistance and as far as I know,

23     those orders did arrive in that office by phone.

24        Q.   Is it correct that at some point assignments for the detachment

25     began to come from the VRS Foca tactical group?

Page 26726

 1        A.   Well, when it comes to the names and the places where those

 2     assignments arrived from, I know that they were not in the city.  And

 3     what they were called, whether they were the Territorial Defence or the

 4     tactical group, that was simply not part of my job.

 5        Q.   All right.  As part of your job, would you agree that the clinic

 6     of which you worked for the unit actually catered to the whole brigade

 7     after the VRS was formed?

 8        A.   I apologise.  I didn't quite understand you.  What did you ask

 9     me.

10        Q.   You've described that you worked with a detachment and with a

11     clinic for that detachment; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Is it true that that clinic catered or took care of the whole

14     brigade?

15        A.   There was a clinical centre also known as the Foca hospital.

16     That's what was in place.

17        Q.   You were in the clinic of the garrison; correct?

18        A.   All of that was medical service or the medical service.

19        Q.   All right.  Were you part of the 2nd Battalion after the VRS was

20     formed?

21        A.   I don't know who they were, where they were, who that unit was

22     attached to.  I really don't know.  I -- I can't remember.  Even if I

23     knew at the time, it was such a long time ago.  After so many years it's

24     hard to recall.

25        Q.   Okay.  Perhaps it would be helpful to go back to your testimony

Page 26727

 1     again.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  And I believe that is still on the screen, the same

 3     65 ter number.  If we could turn to e-court page 41.

 4        Q.   We'll try to refresh your recollection.  We'll be looking at

 5     line 18.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And not to be broadcast.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  And not to be broadcast.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   The question was:

 9             "Did you ever have any dealings with medical personnel from the

10     5th Battalion?  You were in the 2nd Battalion; right?"

11             Your answer was:

12             "I was in the clinic of the garrison.  It was the main clinic

13     there.  It was a clinic that catered to the whole brigade."

14             "Q.  So that would include the 2nd and the 5th Battalions; is

15     that right?"

16             And your answer was:

17             "Yes, yes."

18             Does that refresh your recollection as to the work of the clinic?

19        A.   There was just one hospital, one medical centre, and the garrison

20     infirmary.  All the three were part of the medical service of the entire

21     region, of the entire area.

22        Q.   And that meant that it catered to the whole brigade; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   It catered to everybody.  We are talking about a hospital, a

25     large medical institution.  Everybody was admitted there.  There was a

Page 26728

 1     medical centre and there was an infirmary where records of the fighters

 2     and their health were kept.

 3        Q.   And this unit came under the command of the garrison where --

 4     you're describing here where the records of the fighters were kept.  That

 5     unit came under the command of the garrison; is that correct?

 6        A.   For a long time it was probably -- you know what?  I really don't

 7     know anything about those details.  I suppose that there was the TG or

 8     the Territorial Defence or whatever it was called.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's -- let me see if I can be very simple and

10     perhaps I'm confusing different things in your mind.  The Dragan Nikolic

11     unit, let's focus on that for now.  All right.  Let's -- would you agree

12     that all assignments and leadership duties were assigned by the superior

13     command of the garrison?  Does that make sense?

14        A.   How and during what period of time the assignments came from, I

15     really don't know.  Was it the TG?  Was it perhaps Territorial Defence?

16     Or perhaps it was a garrison.  I really don't understand those military

17     terms.  I don't know anything about them.

18        Q.   Well, let's go then to page 45.

19             MS. BIBLES:  And we'll focus on line 19.

20        Q.   And here you're being asked about the Dragan Nikolic unit.  You

21     were asked:

22             "And the unit worked with the garrison; right?"

23             Your answer:

24             "Yes.  It came under the command of the garrison, and all

25     assignments and leadership duties were assigned by the garrison, from

Page 26729

 1     that leading brigade, the base."

 2             Do you stand by the answer that you gave in your previous

 3     testimony?

 4        A.   Yes, but the term, be it a military or a civilian, it could have

 5     been called the main command.  I may have used the wrong term because I

 6     don't understand the terms.

 7        Q.   And if I understand your testimony on direct, you worked with

 8     this unit from 1992 to 1995; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you wore a uniform when you worked with this unit, at least

11     from September 1992 on; is that correct?

12        A.   I didn't have to.  I would leave for a day and then come back.  I

13     also wore my white nurses uniform, as needed.

14        Q.   And after your years working with this unit and with the

15     military, you're telling us now that you didn't have sufficient

16     understanding of military command and control and phrases to be able to

17     stand by your previous testimony?

18        A.   You know what?  During the break I tried to remember the names

19     about which you asked me.  I tried to remember their faces, and I

20     realised that I have forgotten so much.  I really can't remember so much

21     of it, believe me.

22        Q.   So do you believe that your testimony in the year 2000 would have

23     been more accurate than your memory today?

24        A.   My testimony then and today, I believe both are accurate.  There

25     may have been a slip of the tongue, but when it comes to the chief

Page 26730

 1     information that I have up here, I still have that.  As for the data

 2     also.

 3        Q.   You've just told us, "I really can't remember so much of it,

 4     believe me ..."  And actually I missed what you said before then, which

 5     was, "I realise that I have forgotten so much ..."  So I'm trying to

 6     understand what you do remember and what you don't remember.  Isn't it

 7     true based on what you're describing of forgetfulness now or your

 8     difficulty remembering that your testimony 14 years ago would have been

 9     more accurate than your testimony and your recollections today?

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honours.  I

11     believe that this was asked and answered.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It wasn't answered.  It was asked, I do agree, but

13     it wasn't answered.

14             Witness, the issue is that in your previous testimony, as it was

15     read to you, you give all kind of statements about it came under the

16     command of the garrison, all assignments and leadership duties were

17     assigned by the garrison, so there you come with quite some details about

18     how it functioned.  Today you're telling us, well, I don't remember, I

19     don't know what terms to be used, et cetera.

20             Now what Ms. Bibles asked you is when you gave that previous

21     testimony, whether your recollection of what -- how it was was better

22     than it is now.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both then and now, I remember just

24     the important details.  Whether my memory was better then, I don't know.

25     I really don't know.  I can't determine.

Page 26731

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No further questions for you.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just one question from me.

 5                           Questioned by the Court:

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Ma'am, at page 55, lines 19 to 20, you are

 7     recorded as saying -- wait a minute.  Am I getting the wrong number?

 8     There has been a change now.  There has been a shift of lines.  I can't

 9     see that now.  But you said that you do not know where the instructions

10     or the orders came from while you were working with the unit.  Is that --

11     am I right in saying that?  It's what you've been saying, that you don't

12     remember.

13             I said that came from that main command, from that place which

14     was outside the city.  Whether they were called the tactical group, the

15     tactical support, something else, I don't know.  It was at the very

16     beginning.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now --

18        A.   Perhaps even Territorial Defence.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now that's what I was going to ask you because in

20     your statement at paragraph 10, you say that the orders came from the

21     Territorial Defence Staff.  Now, you wrote this statement fairly

22     recently, not 14 years ago.  You wrote it -- you signed it on the 8th of

23     June this year.

24        A.   Yes.  But for me the Territorial Defence is the same as the

25     tactical group as the tactical support.  I don't really make a

Page 26732

 1     distinction among them.  Perhaps it's my mistake that I do not understand

 2     the definition of those terms.  It was one and the same for me.  We

 3     really didn't know what -- who they were, what they were about.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, ma'am.  If you don't know the

 5     difference between them.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I would have -- well, first, Mr. Stojanovic,

 7     any need to re-examine the witness?

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what -- one --

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One question is just one question, Mr. Stojanovic.

13     Okay.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Quite right.  I'll try and make

15     it just one bearing in mind what you have just said.  Please, just one

16     question.

17        Q.   How would you translate the word "garrison"?  What other word

18     would you use to tell us what "garrison" is in our language?

19        A.   A garrison is a place from which all the assignments arrived.

20     Let me put it this way:  Those were the leaders who had set the whole

21     thing up and they sent all the assignments and orders.  Please help me.

22     I don't know how else to answer your question.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no further

25     questions for the witness.

Page 26733

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have one question for you.

 2                           Further Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's about a part of your statement where you made a

 4     correction.

 5             And after the correction, your statement reads:

 6             "At that time, the medical centre and the correctional facility

 7     were under Muslim control, and Serb were taken to the correctional

 8     facility."

 9             When, for what reasons, were Serbs taken to the correctional

10     facility?

11        A.   At the very beginning when I was already at the hospital, people

12     kept on coming to the hospital.  They were all Muslims, including

13     children.  The road was obstructed all the way to the hospital.  And the

14     settlement, Donje Polje, where the correctional facility is, is mostly

15     inhabited by Muslims.  That entire area belonged to Muslims.  So that's

16     that.  That's my answer.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  To when --

18        A.   That was happening at the beginning of the war.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now why were Serbs taken to the correctional

20     facility?  Was it to undergo medical treatment?  Was it in order to be

21     detained?  Was it in order to get food?  What was the reason why Serbs

22     were taken to the correctional facility?

23        A.   To be detained there.  They were detained there.  Very few Serbs

24     lived there and that's all they could.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now this Chamber has received quite some evidence

Page 26734

 1     about non-Serbs being detained at the KP Dom penitentiary facility.  Do

 2     you know -- is it your testimony that they remained detained there for a

 3     long period of time or did it change at any point in time?

 4        A.   When the blockade was lifted at the hospital, a change took place

 5     because in order to get to the hospital you had to pass by the KP Dom.

 6     That night people who were in the hospital, they had been admitted, the

 7     hospital was full, it was bursting at the seams.  There were women,

 8     children, adolescents.  When the blockade was lifted off, they left the

 9     KP Dom, the hospital, and went in the direction of Gorazde and Jasenica.

10     Of their own will they left.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And the Serbs were released who were detained in

12     KP Dom?

13        A.   Well, I suppose so.  Probably.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  How do you know that Serbs were detained in the

15     KP Dom in those early days?

16        A.   No Serb arrived in hospital to be treated there.  They were --

17     organised an infirmary outside of the city.  They could not even reach

18     the medical centre.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that doesn't mean that you are detained in

20     KP Dom if you can't reach a hospital.  That's -- could have many, many

21     reasons, not necessarily that you are detained in KP Dom.  So my question

22     again is:  How do you know that they were detained, which I understand to

23     be put behind doors, unable to leave that facility?

24        A.   After that villa and -- we did not know what was going on when we

25     were in the hospital.  We did not have time to listen to any rumours.  We

Page 26735

 1     heard things on the radio.  We didn't have food.  Muslims who came to the

 2     hospital, all we had to give them to eat was a piece of bread and butter,

 3     and the only information that we had about the goings on in the territory

 4     of Foca municipality was what we heard on Radio Sarajevo.  No other

 5     information reached us.  There was a blockade around the hospital.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And did that also mean that that was your only

 7     source of knowledge about Serbs being detained in KP Dom?

 8        A.   I did not understand you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I still -- from your answers, it's not clear to me

10     how you know that Serbs were put behind doors and bars in KP Dom in those

11     early days of the conflict.  Could you tell us how you knew that?

12        A.   Once the blockade was lifted, we learned.  Before that we didn't

13     know what was going on.  As they were leaving the hospital, we learned

14     about that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Therefore it was what you heard later.

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now did you ever hear about Muslims or non-Serbs

18     being detained at KP Dom in the later stage of the conflict?

19        A.   Yes.  Later on, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions for you.

21             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any -- if not --

22             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness, this concludes your testimony.  I

24     would like to thank you very much very having come to The Hague and for

25     having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the

Page 26736

 1     parties or put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

 2     again.  But please wait until the curtains are down before you leave the

 3     courtroom in order to make the protective measures effective.

 4             We briefly turn into closed session.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             Mr. Weber.

20             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you for this opportunity.

21     I just wanted to raise a brief matter -- actually, a couple of matters

22     relating to the proofing note the Prosecution received last evening for

23     the next witness.  These matters would mainly assist us if we could start

24     on looking into some of the information already.  That's why I raise them

25     before the witness.

Page 26737

 1             In paragraph 2 of the proofing note that we received, there is

 2     mention of three personnel encounters between the next witness and

 3     General Mladic.  Part of the testimony of the witness, the Prosecution

 4     would just wonder if the Defence could tell us the dates, locations, and

 5     individuals present during these encounters so we can look into it?

 6     That's the first matter.

 7             The second matter related to the proofing note is in paragraphs 4

 8     and 5.  The witness discusses two meetings related to the HVO and events

 9     in Kiseljak and Vares.  These topics are not part of the notice that the

10     Prosecution received for this witness.  Notwithstanding and for practical

11     reasons, the Prosecution does not oppose the Defence leading minimal

12     evidence related directly to these two meetings, like who, when, where,

13     what transpired during the particular meetings; however, the Prosecution

14     would oppose any broadening of the evidence to a more general discussion

15     to the course of events related to this unnoticed topic.

16             Thank you, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Defence, the first question is about

18     details the Prosecution would like to have about those three personal

19     encounters.

20             MR. IVETIC:  My recollection from talking with the witness was

21     that the -- two were at Crna Rijeka at the command of the VRS Main Staff

22     and one was at a briefing with all other SRK command officers present at

23     the SRK.  That is a question I was going to put to the witness so we can

24     get all the details from the horse's mouth, as we say, to avoid any

25     errors in terms of detailing of dates or years.

Page 26738

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  In proofing you have not asked about when it

 2     happened?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I -- we talked -- this came up generally and I asked

 4     how many times and under what circumstances, and the years may have been

 5     mentioned.  I believe -- I believe it would have been in 1992 and 1993,

 6     but I do not want to rely upon my memory of what was said to direct the

 7     Prosecution one way or another.  I'd rather have the witness state those

 8     specific details.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that, but usually for purposes of notice, of

10     course, if you go beyond what is in the 65 ter summary, then -- and I do

11     not know to what extent it goes beyond, but then, of course, it's usually

12     good to -- to be as precise as possible.

13             But let's -- Mr. Weber, this is the answer for the time being.

14             MR. WEBER:  Of course we'll work with it and do our best.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  If I could have some indulgence then, maybe, just to

17     report whether there are any issues with it further tomorrow.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it cross-examination will, in view of

19     the latest estimates, will not start until tomorrow, so if Mr. Ivetic

20     deals with the matters today then you have at least some -- some 20 hours

21     to -- or 19, 20 hours to find out.

22             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the -- one

24     second.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 26739

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 2             Mr. Ivetic, perhaps unnecessary, but the Defence exhibit known as

 3     1D03092 should be confidential.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I can tell Your Honours that we are not going to be

 5     tendering that document, and we have a redacted version of the statement

 6     that omits that paragraph.  And actually while we're waiting for the

 7     witness, I can ask Your Honour's pleasure -- I have both are in the

 8     system, both the full and the redacted.  Both -- either can be used with

 9     the witness.  If you want to just use the redacted rather than the full,

10     we could -- we could do that.  I can --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether a redaction is sufficient or not depends on

12     how the redaction is done and what still appears.  As a matter of fact,

13     the protective measures which are related to this issue need to be fully

14     observed.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.

16             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honour, I don't know if this would provide

17     any clarity, but I believe what we're discussing - and it would be

18     acceptable to the Prosecution - if paragraph 72, I believe, of the

19     statement was redacted and just paragraph 72.  I believe that might

20     facilitate actually admitting this statement as a public exhibit and I

21     believe that's what Mr. Ivetic is talking about and we'd have no

22     opposition to that.

23             MR. IVETIC:  That is my -- that is my position and that is the

24     redaction.  The entire paragraph 72 has been blacked out.  And it's my

25     understanding that that is the version of the statement that was

Page 26740

 1     eventually admitted in the Karadzic case.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  This having been clarified --

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has not -- he has a longer way than

 5     usual to go.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Maksimovic.  Before you give

 9     evidence --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the Rules require that you make a solemn

12     declaration, the text of which is now handed out to you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  I solemnly declare that I

14     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  RATOMIR MAKSIMOVIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Maksimovic.

18             Mr. Maksimovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Ivetic.

19     Mr. Ivetic, and you find him to your left, is a member of the Defence

20     team of Mr. Mladic.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

24        Q.   Good day, sir.  Can you please first state your full name for the

25     record.

Page 26741

 1        A.   My name is Ratomir Maksimovic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Now I'd like to call up in e-court 65 ter

 4     number 1D04059.

 5        Q.   Now, sir, this is a statement from the Karadzic case.  Do you

 6     remember having given such a statement in that case?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  If we can turn to the last page in both versions.

 9     But for the sake of -- yeah.  And it's the prior page in the English.

10        Q.   Sir, there is a signature on this page.  Can you identify for us

11     whose signature is present?

12        A.   This is my signature.

13        Q.   After signing the statement, did you have a chance to read the

14     same in the Serbian language to see if everything is correct in it?

15        A.   Yes, I read it and everything is accurate.

16        Q.   Sir, if I were to ask you today questions on the same topics as

17     contained in this written statement, would your answers today be the same

18     in substance as recorded in your written statement?

19        A.   Yes, they would.  There might be some variations, though, because

20     we are talking about two different personalities who discharged different

21     types of duties.  However, I stand by it, although it is possible that

22     some variations might occur with regard to the question.

23        Q.   And since you have taken a solemn declaration today to tell the

24     truth, would those answers be truthful in nature?

25        A.   Absolutely.

Page 26742

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would then move for 1D04059 to be

 2     admitted publicly as this is the redacted version.

 3             MR. WEBER:  No objections, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could 1D04059 be removed from the screen for the

 5     time being.

 6   (redacted)

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I will ask for that to be done and then I would ask

 8     for this to be MFI'd until we can upload the --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. IVETIC:  -- further redacted version.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4059 receives number D686,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  D686 is marked for identification.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

16             Your Honours, I would leave the associated exhibits for the end.

17     But as I've already indicated the last one which Your Honours had raised

18     is not being tendered, all the remaining ones are still being tendered so

19     I give notice of that to the other side.

20             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm happy to address the four documents

21     now.  The Prosecution has no objection to the admission of any of the

22     four of them.  If counsel wants to provide the 65 ter numbers.

23             My understanding is that just the one not being tendered is

24     1D3092.  So with that exception, I have no objection to the others.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it in your hands, Mr. Ivetic, whether you

Page 26743

 1     deal with them now, right away, or whether you leave it until later.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  We can, for the sake of efficiency, do it right now.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please give us the first document ID number.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  The first 65 ter number is 1D04060.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D -- the document receives number D687,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 9             Next one, please.

10             MR. IVETIC:  65 ter number 1D04061.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D668, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

15             MR. IVETIC:  And then 65 ter number 1D03091.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D689, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             MR. IVETIC:  And the last one is 65 ter number 1D04062.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D690, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

21             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And, Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at the clock.  We are

23     at the time where we are usually take a break and perhaps --

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would prefer to have an, at least what -- the

Page 26744

 1     examination-in-chief to be uninterrupted for what we can achieve today

 2     then perhaps we should perhaps take the break first.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             Then, Witness, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.

 6     We'll take a break first and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.  You may

 7     follow the usher.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 1.23 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

13     into the courtroom.

14             This morning there was a discussion about something added to the

15     translation in relation to "balijas."  I think I put on the record that

16     we had discussed a similar thing before.  We'll provide the Defence with

17     the exact page number in the transcript, but it was not about "balijas"

18     but about Turks, but the discussion was more or less the same, whether it

19     was a derogatory expression yes or no.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And then, of course, the Chamber would like to know

22     whether the Defence still insists on what they asked the Prosecution to

23     do.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I will pass that along to Mr. Lukic --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 26745

 1             MR. IVETIC:  -- who I believe that was directed to.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And we'll take care that you have the correct

 3     page numbers which, by the way, were provided to me by Madam Registrar.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I believe I left off at

 6     the point where I would read the public summary of the statement.

 7             Ratomir Maksimovic is a retired naval officer.  Between June 1991

 8     and 22nd of April, 1992, he worked at the military historical institute

 9     in Belgrade.  The witness was transferred in April 1992 at personal

10     request from Belgrade to the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo because he

11     is originally from Ilidza and his family was situated there at that time.

12     Between June 22nd, 1992, and April the 1st, 1993, he returned to work at

13     his position in the military historical institute in Belgrade.  From

14     April the 1st, 1993, to September the 1st, 1994, he was in the

15     Sarajevo Romanija command.  Then he went back to Belgrade.  Finally,

16     between 30th of April, 1995 and 31st of March, 1996, even once again in

17     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

18             When he first arrived to the military district in Sarajevo, he

19     noted that the JNA installations were under constant attack by the

20     Bosnian Muslim paramilitaries.  He himself was captured when these

21     paramilitaries attacked a JNA convoy peacefully withdrawing on

22     Dobrovoljacka Street.

23             In Sarajevo city, the Muslim authorities had the 1st Corps of the

24     ABiH under their control which had positions at dominant high points in

25     and around the city, including in civilian features and heavy artillery

Page 26746

 1     spread out everywhere in the city.  The ABiH took over former JNA

 2     barracks, where JNA weapons, including heavy weapons, were left behind.

 3             The Sarajevo Romanija Corps was a defensive unit and its members

 4     were aged from 20 to 60.  There was a lack of professional officers in

 5     the corps, most of these were in the commands, and the brigades had very

 6     few officers.

 7             The lack of professional command affected combat abilities of the

 8     units, which were not able to carry out offensive combat operations.

 9     Operations were not part of a systemic or widespread attack on civilians.

10     The Sarajevo Romanija Corps could not and did not consciously make it

11     impossible for the Muslim government in Sarajevo to control the

12     conditions of life of the civilians in the city.  The situation was

13     imposed by the 1st Corps of the BH Army and not by the

14     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

15             Had the 1st Corps of the ABiH broken out of Sarajevo, it would

16     have affected other fronts and the course of the war in

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The main task of the SRK was to protect Serbian

18     territories and the civilian population and prevent any mass movement of

19     the BH Army outside of Sarajevo.

20             The Sarajevo Romanija Corps did not issue or receive any orders

21     to attack civilians or means of public transportation in the area of the

22     city under Muslim control.  General orders stated that fire should be

23     opened against the positions from which it came and against moving forces

24     intended for reinforcement.  The orders as to civilians was that they

25     should never be targeted.

Page 26747

 1             Whenever the command found out about possible civilian

 2     casualties, it suspended fire in order to avoid such victims.

 3     Conversely, citizens in the zone of responsibility of the

 4     Sarajevo Romanija Corps were in a state of fear and uncertainty due to

 5     permanent shelling and sniping by the BH Army.

 6             That concludes the summary.  If I can continue with questions to

 7     the witness?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so, Mr. Ivetic.

 9             MR. IVETIC:

10        Q.   Sir, I have briefly summarised your military resume as set forth

11     in your Karadzic written statement.  Do you have anything you wish to add

12     from your service history at this time?

13        A.   Well, everything is correct.  Although, something was not

14     highlighted enough, that is that there were no idea of conducting an

15     offensive action against Sarajevo nor was any officer ever contemplating

16     that.  Therefore, I would like to rule out that as a possibility.  That's

17     all I have to say.

18        Q.   In relation to your background and resume, your history, your

19     military resume, is there anything you wish to add as to positions you

20     held?

21        A.   Well, my service record is linked to the navy.  This is not

22     important.  Here in the 1980s, I started working in scientific search and

23     I taught naval tactics at the naval academic, then I took my MA.  So

24     mainly I was involved in science, working at the military historical

25     institute when the war broke out and I was just about to write my

Page 26748

 1     doctoral thesis.  Now in light of the situation, that my wife and son

 2     went from Split to Belgrade, I volunteered to go to the 2nd Army District

 3     so that I can stay in touch with both my family and my brothers.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Then I'd like to move to your statement.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Which has been marked D686 MFI.  And I'd like to

 6     look at paragraph 48 of the same, found on page 10 in the Serb and

 7     page 15 in the English.

 8        Q.   Sir, here you talk of a meeting where Tolimir offered to provide

 9     buses and unhindered transport to any civilians wishing to leave

10     Sarajevo.  Was such an arrangement or agreement ever reached to allow

11     this to happen?

12        A.   Well, General Tolimir arrived in Lukavica on that day.  I just

13     accompanied him so that he were not alone.  There was a conflict in

14     Sarajevo between the Muslims and Croats.  The situation was very

15     difficult and I was looking for a way to allow people to leave the city

16     and get away from this chaos.  There was General Morillon and

17     representatives of the Muslims and Croats.  General Tolimir made an offer

18     in order to secure an unhindered passage for everyone who wanted to leave

19     the Sarajevo across the Serb-controlled territory.  He also said --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Maksimovic, would you please answer the

21     question.

22             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Just the question was:  Was such an agreement or

24     agreement ever reached?  Was it or was it not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was between the Croats.  In

Page 26749

 1     the Muslims, no agreement was reached.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Okay.  If we can look at the next paragraph,

 3     paragraph 49.

 4        Q.   You talk of Serb civilians trying to leave Sarajevo.  Do you have

 5     any concrete examples of which you have personal knowledge in this

 6     regard?

 7        A.   I have some knowledge and I know of an example that personally

 8     affects me.  I can tell you about the case of a distinguished Serb in

 9     Sarajevo, Veljko Koljevic, who was a highly-ranked official in the

10     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He was also the director of

11     Radio and Television Sarajevo, and so on.  He stayed in Sarajevo thinking

12     that this will take a different course.  However, he was exposed to

13     tremendous humiliation and his life was threatened on top of that.  In

14     the book that he wrote about Sarajevo, I would like to say that he went

15     personally to the president of the Muslim war government by the name of

16     Hasan Muratovic.  He asked him what was the price for his leaving

17     Sarajevo.  The response was that he should relinquish his flat.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Judge, I just want to note something that has come up

20     with the witness in the past.  He does have a historian background.  He

21     tends to delve off into other material.  If he could state his personal

22     knowledge.  I guess my objection would -- the answer is now veering off

23     from what the witness may personally know, the things he -- he might have

24     read or absorbed from other sources.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you please guide the witness in

Page 26750

 1     such a way that he is giving clear impression of his sources of

 2     knowledge.  And in view of the witness apparently giving rather long

 3     answers, I leave it to you whether or not you, by more concrete and

 4     focused questions, whether you would use your time in a way you would be

 5     most -- you think would be more effective.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:

 8        Q.   Sir, could you very briefly and concretely tell us whether you

 9     have personal knowledge of the situation in relation to Mr. Kojovic?

10        A.   Kojovic?  His book?

11        Q.   Can I --

12        A.   And the other case involves Dusan Kecmanovic.

13        Q.   And do you have personal knowledge as to Mr. Dusan Kecmanovic?

14        A.   Yes.  I read his collection of stories.  He described in it what

15     happened to him in Sarajevo during the first five months of the war.  He

16     was forced to leave Sarajevo because of the danger.

17        Q.   You started off by saying there was one that you had of an

18     example that personally affects you.  Could you please start with that

19     example that personally affects you in terms of Serbs that were in

20     Sarajevo and tried to leave Sarajevo.

21        A.   It's the case of Dr. Starevic, who was a plastic surgeon.  He

22     left Sarajevo in 1993.  He arrived at the command.  He was distraught, in

23     a poor physical and emotional state as a result of his stay in Sarajevo.

24     He asked for a machine-gun to open fire on Sarajevo to retaliate.  I

25     heard that personally.  Lugonja was also there, and so on and so forth.

Page 26751

 1     Of course he didn't do what he threatened to do because we wouldn't allow

 2     him to do that.  This is my personal experience.

 3             And the other authors experienced things, both Kecmanovic and

 4     Koljevic.  There is other information that I'm sure that the Tribunal is

 5     privy to.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us what did he pay,

 7     Mr. Starevic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how much he paid.  I

 9     don't know how he left Sarajevo, under what circumstances.  I don't know

10     that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Next question please, Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  If we could move to paragraphs 51 and 52 which are

14     on page 16 in English, page 10 in the Serbian.

15        Q.   Here you talk about criminal elements in Sarajevo operating or

16     linked to the brigades of the BH Army 1st Corps.  Do you have anything

17     you wish to add here in relation to Juka Prazina or Caco Topalovic and

18     your knowledge of who was controlling them?

19        A.   I know that the Trial Chamber is asking for sources.  My sources

20     are books and footnotes in them.  When it comes to Juka Prazina --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  You do not appear

22     as a historian, as an expert witness.  You appear as a witness of fact.

23     That means that whatever you've read, you could have told the Defence,

24     and the Defence can present any material which it considers relevant to

25     the Chamber, but what we would like to hear from you is what you

Page 26752

 1     personally observed, what you saw, what you heard yourself, not what you

 2     learned from books.

 3             MR. IVETIC:

 4        Q.   Keeping in mind what the Chamber has told you, do you have

 5     anything additional that you feel you need to add to what is already

 6     contained in these two paragraphs about Juka Prazina and Caco, Musan --

 7     Musan Topalovic as to who was issuing orders to them and controlling

 8     them?

 9        A.   General Siber, he was a general in the Croatian army, or, rather,

10     a member of BiH Army staff.  In his book he says that Caco recognised

11     only the orders that came from Alija Izetbegovic.  But we can start

12     with --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, witness, I think I made it pretty clear that you

14     are not here to recite from books you have read but to add to whatever

15     personal knowledge you may have such as, I saw this or, I made a

16     telephone call with A or B or whatever, but not reciting what you read in

17     books written by others.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   I can direct you to the time-period of the war, sir, when you

21     were in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  What information was available to

22     you at that time as to who or what was controlling the activities of

23     Juka Prazina and Caco, Musan Topalovic?

24        A.   This was intelligence that was sent to the intelligence officer.

25     He was privy to the details.  I can share with you my personal

Page 26753

 1     experience.  When I was a hostage in the hotel Europa, all in line with

 2     the instructions from the Presiding Judge, if you allow me, I can share

 3     that personal experience with you.  Can I talk about that?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is related to the question, of course you can.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I was captured in

 6     Dobrovoljacka Street, and together with my colleagues, I was taken to the

 7     sports centre known as FIS.  And then one of the Muslims took me to the

 8     Europa hotel to exchange me for his sister and brother-in-law.  And while

 9     I was in --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm sorry, Mr. Maksimovic --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- let's just go back to the question.  The

13     question was:  Who or what was controlling the activities of Juka Prazina

14     and Caco Musan Topalovic.  You're not being asked about what you

15     experienced yourself when you are being captured, but what -- who

16     controlled them.  X controlled them or Y controlled them.  That's the

17     answer to the question.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to what I know and

19     according to what I studied, they were under direct control of the top

20     echelon of the SDA --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- starting with Alija Muslimovic

23     and others.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm going to stop you again.  When you were

25     captured in Dobrovoljacka Street and when you were taken to the sports

Page 26754

 1     centre known as FIS, did you observe anything personally which was

 2     relevant for the answer to the question, the question being who was

 3     controlling these persons mentioned?  Did you learn anything?  And if so,

 4     tell us what you learned at that point in time by personal observation.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spent some hours or so in the

 6     sports hall, but then I learned in the hotel from the TO Stari Grad that

 7     I was lucky to be kept by Kurta i Fahro as a hostage.  That I would have

 8     faired much worse if I was kept by Celo Juka Caco.  That's my personal

 9     knowledge and this is what I'm conveying to you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is, therefore, you were told that you

11     were lucky not to be captured by them which, of course, does not shed any

12     light yet on who controlled them.  But, therefore, it's not an answer to

13     the question but at least it's personal knowledge, what you were told.

14             Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:  Perhaps if we could look at paragraph 63 which is to

16     be found on pages 19 to 20 in English and page 13 in the Serbian.

17        Q.   You speak of two naval officers here who formed Patriotic League

18     organisations.  When did these events take place?  When did they leave

19     the Yugoslav navy and when did they participate in forming these

20     Patriotic League organisations?

21        A.   Yes, those were two naval officers, Meho Karisik and

22     Atif Saruljic.  They were secret members of the Patriotic League already

23     in March 1991, especially Karisik.  He served in the navy until the end

24     of June or the beginning of July 1991.  I know Karisik personally.  His

25     superior, Manojlo Cuk told me that.  He told me that he allowed Meho to

Page 26755

 1     leave because he was complaining of not feeling well.

 2        Q.   I --

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry to interrupt Mr. Ivetic's examination, but

 6     just for the practical matter related to the notice I mentioned before

 7     the witness.  I do see the time and I don't know if Mr. Ivetic is going

 8     to go into the locations of those meetings just so I can get them for

 9     preparations.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

11             MR. WEBER:  That's why I rise.

12             MR. IVETIC:  That's what I thought.

13        Q.   Sir, during the time you were in the VRS, could you tell us about

14     the number of times you were able to personally encountered

15     General Mladic, when and where those encounters took place?

16        A.   A few times.  The most important encounter was when I was invited

17     in June 1994 to come to the Main Staff and to report on the situation on

18     the north-western axis of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I met with

19     General Mladic at 10.00 sharp.  He received me.  We spent some time in

20     private.  We sat on a bench, and then he told me, Come on, Colonel.

21     What's up?  We had a long conversation.  General Mladic made notes.  I

22     told him that the situation on that axis is quite relaxed and that it

23     could therefore be quite dangerous for the entire axis.  I told him that

24     the chief of staff of the Igman Brigade got killed.

25        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to -- is the --

Page 26756

 1        A.   That he was killed.

 2        Q.   Before we go into all these details, could you please give us the

 3     number of times that you recall encountering General Mladic, the dates,

 4     and the locations of those encounters?

 5        A.   I started with the most important things, that was the most

 6     important encounter.  The second one we had in Lukavica also in 1994 when

 7     I was the head of personnel in the corps.  A document came from the

 8     Main Staff on the retirement of those officers who had --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, perhaps tomorrow there will be

10     more questions about the details.  But at this moment, Mr. Ivetic just

11     asked you when and where and I think he would add who else were present

12     because that was one of the issues as well.

13             So I do understand the first time was in June 1994, Main Staff,

14     10.00 in the morning.  Do you have --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  No.  Our first

16     encounter was on the 15th of May, 1992, when General Mladic invited me to

17     go to Crna Rijeka.  That was a very brief encounter with him.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I meant, as a matter of fact, the first one you

19     mentioned.  But let's take it chronologically.  15th of May, 1992, in

20     Lukavica -- no, in Crna Rijeka.  Crna Rijeka.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not Lukavica.  Crna Rijeka.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Who else was present during that encounter?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General Mladic was walking outside.

24     I approached him and I told him that I was there on his request.  I

25     introduced myself and then when he learned why I had come, he referred me

Page 26757

 1     to Gvero.  There was nobody else there, just the two of us.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So you were alone and you were referred to Gvero.

 3             Second encounter, do you have a date?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 30th of May, 1992, when the

 5     General arrived in Lukavica to see who the officers were.  He was not

 6     aware of the situation in Lukavica.  He held a meeting with all of us.

 7     There was some 30 of us there of various levels and ranks.  He told us

 8     how the war had broken out, that it would last for a long time, that we

 9     had to be economical with ammunition and weapons.  Without any --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Details will come later.  You may not understand why

11     we are limiting ourselves to this --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then I can --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But since this is new information for the

14     Prosecution, we agreed that we would first ask you about dates and

15     places, and if there are any follow-up questions, Mr. Ivetic will put

16     them tomorrow to you.

17             So we had now the second encounter was the 30th of May, 1992.  We

18     now move to the third one.  The third one was where and when?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our third encounter was the one

20     with which I started, when I met him in 1994 and reported to him.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Any more precise date than, I think you said,

22     was it June 1994?  Do you have an exact date?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was around the 12th of June.  In

24     any case, in the first half of that month.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And I think you said already where that was.

Page 26758

 1     That was in the Main Staff.  Is that correctly understood?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, apologies.  You may not have understood why we

 4     are limiting ourselves to this, but we are about to adjourn for the day.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have something else to -- there

 6     was another encounter.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If there was another encounter, please tell us when

 8     and where.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Also in the month of June on my way

10     back from Belgrade with General Mladic's cousin, a young man.  I popped

11     in at the command post in Crna Rijeka, the proper command post.  It was

12     my own curiosity.  The general received me, we had a cup of coffee, and

13     we had a friendly chat.  Those were my encounters with the general.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The last one you said also in the month of

15     June.  Do I understand that it's June 1994?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1994, sometime around the 26th of

17     that month.  Around the 26th.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Around the 26th.  That is very helpful.  I can

19     explain to you why we asked only this, because the Prosecution was not

20     aware that your testimony would deal with encounters and they would like

21     to know exactly when and where.  So that's what we started with.

22             We'll adjourn for the day, and if there are any further questions

23     on these encounters, Mr. Ivetic will ask further questions about it or

24     the Prosecution may have further questions about it.

25             We adjourn for the day.  But I would first like to instruct you

Page 26759

 1     that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with whomever

 2     about your testimony, whether that is testimony you've given today or

 3     whether that is testimony still to be given tomorrow.  Is that clear to

 4     you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will observe that.  Don't worry.

 6     I understand.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we would like to see you back tomorrow morning

 8     at 9.30 and you may now follow the usher.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We will adjourn for the day and will resume

11     tomorrow, the Wednesday, the 15th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in

12     this same courtroom, I.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.22 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day

15                           of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.