Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26760

 1                           Wednesday, 15 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Any preliminary matters?

12             Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.  I

14     just wanted to use the opportunity to say that the next witness,

15     Radojca Mladjenovic, would require more than 30 minutes that we had

16     originally asked for.  Therefore, we would kindly ask your indulgence to

17     grant us 45 minutes to examine that witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll consider that, Mr. Stojanovic.  But let me

19     just have a look.  I have Mladjenovic not as the next witness.  I have

20     Mr. Ujic as the next witness.  Yes.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honours.

22     The witness who comes after Mr. Ujic is Mr. Mladjenovic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's then clear.  We'll consider it.

24             Mr. Weber.

25             MR. WEBER:  Just since we're addressing time matters, I'm still

Page 26761

 1     going to try to do my cross-examination on the current witness in two and

 2     a half hours.  However, I did review.  Since there was one associated

 3     exhibit that was not tendered yesterday, I may need to put some other

 4     things into the record which might carry me slightly over and I just want

 5     to alert the Chamber as to that since I had anticipated that that

 6     associated exhibit was going to be tendered.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. WEBER:  But I'm still going to try to maintain my time

 9     estimate.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.  The proof of the pudding is in

11     the eating.

12             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom?  I think the

13     usher is already trying to find him.

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Maksimovic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you

18     are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning

19     of your testimony, and I would also like to remind you that you do not

20     appear as a teacher -- no --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear you.  Can --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear very well.  Can you

24     put up the sound?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'll be assisted.  Is it better now?

Page 26762

 1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's okay now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I repeat what I said, that you are still bound

 5     by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your

 6     testimony.  And I would also like to remind you that yesterday I made a

 7     few observations about your role in this courtroom; that is, not a

 8     professor, a teacher, a person who gives exegesis of texts written by

 9     others, but that we expect you to give us the information on matters

10     you've observed yourself, you heard, you've seen, et cetera, rather than

11     more general observations.

12                           WITNESS:  RATOMIR MAKSIMOVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             Mr. Ivetic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

15             Mr. Ivetic.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

18        Q.   Sir, yesterday we left off talking about your encounters with

19     General Mladic.  I would like to ask you based upon these encounters,

20     your observations and knowledge of General Mladic, and your military

21     background, how would you assess his attitude towards warfare and the

22     enemy?

23        A.   More or less all of us, including General Mladic, fosters

24     military values and was raised on traditional Serbian officers.  I have

25     never heard anything bad about the enemy side from General Mladic,

Page 26763

 1     nothing defamatory, nothing derogatory.  I personally believe that his

 2     experience of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was very difficult.  But

 3     he had to place himself at the head of the Serbian army in order to avoid

 4     a repetition of the past which was not glorious.

 5             General Mladic acquired those values that I would like to share

 6     with you.  If the Trial Chamber will allow me, I would like to tell you

 7     what are the values of a Serbian general and a Serbian officer.  I

 8     believe that he is a rare --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that goes beyond the question, to tell us

10     what -- you were asked for an impression on the basis of your personal

11     encounters with General Mladic.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   Based on your encounters with General Mladic, which particular

15     values did he seem to embody?

16        A.   The general is a very capable man, very energetic man, very

17     modest man.  He never asked for any privileges in his life while he was

18     in command of the Serbian army.  He never enjoyed any special treatment.

19     The proof of that is that he ate the same food as everybody else.  He

20     visited the troops whenever he could, the troops on positions.  He

21     imparted fatherly advice.  I observed all that.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last sentence.

23             MR. IVETIC:

24        Q.   Could you please repeat the last sentence of your answer as the

25     interpreters did not catch it.

Page 26764

 1        A.   I noticed all that when I met with General Mladic, what I just

 2     told you.

 3        Q.   And in terms of the values that seemed to be embodied and

 4     expressed by General Mladic, could you tell us a little bit more about

 5     his attitude towards the opposing side, the enemy side?  How did he treat

 6     them?

 7        A.   I can only talk about the relationship between General Mladic and

 8     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and his attitude and his -- and what he told

 9     the Sarajevo Romanija Corps about the enemy side.  The most important

10     thing is this:  There was never a suggestion that only the Muslim

11     territory should be attacked, the settlements populated be the Muslim

12     population.  An example for that is Butmir and Hrasnica.  Those

13     settlements are inhabited predominantly by a Muslim population.  When I

14     visited Famos in 1993 and Famos was on the line of contact with Hrasnica

15     and Muslim positions, the general manager, Berijan [phoen], who is now

16     unfortunately is deceased, told me that they had allegedly visited

17     General Mladic and asked him to launch an attack to repel Muslims a bit

18     further away from Famos.  On that occasion, General Mladic said that it

19     would never occurred to him to do that because it was their territory.

20     And now in hindsight I would say that that was an exceptionally fair

21     decision.

22             And this shows that the respect for the Muslim population in that

23     area was never an issue.  As far as the other aspects of the work of the

24     Sarajevo Romanija Corps are concerned, General Mladic trusted the corps

25     and its commanders.  He knew that the Serbian population from Vogosca to

Page 26765

 1     Ilidza and Hadzici or Vojkovici and all the villages at the foot of

 2     Trebevic were doing nothing else but defending their own households,

 3     their own land, and that's all.  Nothing else.  He knew that that was the

 4     biggest motive of their fight, to protect those villages.

 5             General Mladic on two occasions assisted the corps the first time

 6     and the second time when he made sure that some companies arrived from

 7     Krajina to man the combat positions on the Vogosca-Rajlovac axis.  That

 8     was of a short duration.  Otherwise, he had full trust in the

 9     Sarajevo Romanija Corps and its combat capabilities.

10             And another thing that I would like to say about General Mladic.

11     There was a prevalent opinion that he was not well disposed towards

12     General Milosevic.  On one occasion, General Milosevic invited me to his

13     office and he showed me the official grade written on his behalf by

14     General Mladic.  The grade that General Mladic gave to General Milosevic

15     contained some 20 elements.  General Mladic gave General Milosevic all

16     fives.  He gave him only one grade four.  And General Milosevic said he

17     was delighted when he said that -- he said that General Mladic obviously

18     respected everything that General Milosevic was doing in his effort to

19     preserve the Serbian territories in the Sarajevo sector.

20             In other words, it is not true.  Those were just rumours that

21     there was any love lost between the two of them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you skillfully circumvented my effort to

23     get the witness back to the question and to his personal observations.

24     I've now listened for five minutes where the witness dealt with a lot of

25     matters which are totally unrelated to the question.  If you want this

Page 26766

 1     Chamber to take your request for time seriously, then please keep better

 2     control of the witness.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I would like to --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question for clarification, please.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you don't mind.

 8             Sir, at page 5, line 9, you said or you're recorded as saying:

 9             "There was never a suggestion that only the Muslim territory

10     would be attacked."

11             Now, my question to you is:  Which other ethnic territory did he

12     say must be attacked?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is this a question for me?

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Of course.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No territories were ever attacked,

16     not even outside of the zone of Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I'm not aware

17     of that.  But he respected --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What did you mean --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the territories of which --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, sorry.  You've answered my question.

21     You've answered my question.  Thank you so much.  What did you mean by

22     not only the Muslim territories would be attacked?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may have misspoken.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If you have misspoken, thank you so much.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the territories inhabited

Page 26767

 1     by Muslims.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.  If we could return to D686 MFI, and

 5     page 2 in the Serbian and page 2 to 3 in the English, paragraph 6.

 6        Q.   Here you talk of the advantage of the ABiH 2.5 or 3:1 over the

 7     SRK.  Given your military training and given the odds, was it ever even

 8     feasible for the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to try to take over Sarajevo

 9     militarily?

10        A.   In principle, when cities are being conquered, the ratio of

11     forces should be 3:1.  In other words, the attacker has to have the

12     strength three times greater than the defence.  In this case, this was

13     not the case.  Therefore, there was no reason.  There was not any

14     indication that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps would launch an attack and

15     commit suicide in that way.  Fire from Sarajevo did not have to be open

16     on our positions, and then we returned fire and there was a lot of

17     collateral damage.  In other words, the initiative was in the hands of

18     the 1st Corps which was prevalent and its troops were better rested and

19     in a better shape than the troops of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

20             MR. IVETIC:  If we could turn to paragraph 8, which is on the

21     same page in both versions.

22        Q.   Here you talk of Muslim propaganda to portray Sarajevo as

23     St. Petersburg.  What more can you tell us about your personal

24     observations in this regard dating from the time in your detention at

25     hotel Europa?

Page 26768

 1        A.   That's the 3rd May onwards.  I heard on the radio, there was a

 2     lot of propaganda that in Dobrinja Serbs had killed 17 children.  While I

 3     was in Europa hotel, I recorded 42 explosions in the space of one hour on

 4     a rock above Bistrik.  I recorded all those on a map, 42 explosions.

 5     They should have portrayed the situation as Sarajevo having been under a

 6     constant cannonade of Serbian forces.  The objective of the propaganda

 7     was to tarnish the enemy side as much as possible, to boost the combat

 8     readiness of its own forces, to engage the -- their own people to support

 9     their forces, to make the recruitment efforts easier.

10             In any case, there was a lot of propaganda about Serbs who cut

11     off Muslim hands and then played football with them.  And there was

12     another thing that is something that is commonly heard in wars, that

13     fingers are made into necklaces, and so on and so forth.

14             I had a personal encounter in Europa hotel with a high

15     representative of Muslims who happened to be there.  I would like his

16     name to be protected, Mr. President.  I will tell you who he was but I

17     don't want to say that in public session.

18        Q.   Does this relate to my question as to your personal observations

19     of efforts of propaganda to portray Sarajevo as St. Petersburg?

20        A.   That the city was encircled, which it wasn't.  I studied the --

21        Q.   Let's -- let's go back.

22        A.   -- the blockade of Leningrad, but Sarajevo had absolutely nothing

23     whatsoever to do with Leningrad.

24        Q.   We are pressed for time.  I want you to please clarify for us.

25     When you say 42 explosions were -- were those explosions on the same

Page 26769

 1     rock?  Were they in a different area?  I don't understand your answer in

 2     that regard.  Could you please explain that for us.

 3        A.   I could see that all of those explosions happened in the same

 4     place.  Then I started plotting those places on a map and they repeated

 5     in the same place.  There will be a cloud of dust and then an explosion,

 6     a cloud of dust and then an explosion.  And it is very important for me

 7     to tell you about my meeting, and I would kindly ask you to go into

 8     private session because I don't want to say the person's name in

 9     open session.  May I?

10        Q.   Well --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that about the same high representative you --

12     that happened to be in the Europa hotel?  Is that what you want to tell

13     us about?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any specific reason why that person could

16     not be called by his name, if it's a he?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was a businessman.  He was

18     the head of state of commodity reserves.  I don't know whether he

19     returned to Sarajevo or not.  I don't know.  But he was a high official.

20     He informed my family ...

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He informed my family that I was

23     being held hostage in hotel Europa, that man.  But I wanted to say

24     something else, Mr. President.  We spoke --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take it one by one.  You wanted to tell us

Page 26770

 1     about a meeting with this high representative.  You asked for

 2     private session.  We have listened to the reasons you have given and the

 3     Chamber finds no reason to hear that specific portion in private session.

 4     So please tell us about the meeting and tell us with whom you met.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not a meeting.  I just

 6     happened to meet him in hotel Europa where he was because he couldn't go

 7     to his apartment.  We spoke.  He is an intellectual.  And then he

 8     informed my family that I was being held hostage in hotel Europa.  But

 9     this is what he told me --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But tell us first.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Microphone not activated]...

12     gone -- he was the director of state commodity reserves, Ibro Prses.  I

13     have his business card.  I'm sorry, I did not bring it from home.  I can

14     send it to you.  And this is what he told me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Tell us what this man -- how do you spell his last

16     name?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] P, as in Pittsburgh, R as in

18     Rostok, Ibro Prses.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.  If it's relevant, it is

20     about portraying Sarajevo as St. Petersburg.  That was what the question

21     was about.  Could you tell us what, in that respect, he said to you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't speak to me about that.

23     He told me something else which I believed to be true.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  If it relates in any way to any question Mr. Ivetic

25     will put to you, then you may raise that.  But at this moment that

Page 26771

 1     question was focused on propaganda portraying Sarajevo as St. Petersburg.

 2             Mr. Ivetic, I leave it in your hands how to proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, I would like to move to my next topic and then

 4     after that see, if we have time remaining, then we can return to this.

 5     But I would like to move to the next topic which I would like to explore

 6     with the witness.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But before you move to this other topic, I have a

 8     question for the witness.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Go ahead, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness Maksimovic, you said that you had a map

11     where you plotted the location of explosions.  From whom did you get this

12     map?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not a map.  I didn't have a

14     map.  I recorded the explosions on a simple piece of paper because I

15     wasn't allowed to have anything else and later on I tore up this piece of

16     paper and threw away the pencil, because I was a hostage.  I was ready to

17     condemned all of this --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I stop you.  I only asked about the map.  You

19     said on page 8 -- no, page 9, line 1:

20             "I recorded all those on a map, 42 explosions."

21             This is what you said.  And later on you repeated that:

22             "Then I started plotting those places on a map and they repeated

23     in the same place."

24             This is page 10, lines 1 and 2.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter may have misunderstood the

Page 26772

 1     witness and apologies for that.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking at this locations

 3     through my window.  There was no map.  There was just an ordinary piece

 4     of paper which I later tore.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Thank you.  The -- it is clarified

 6     now because the interpreters may have misunderstood you.  Thank you very

 7     much.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one very short question:  Where exactly

 9     is hotel Europa located?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Europa hotel is on the edges of

11     the town, precisely between Bascarsija and Sarajevo downtown.  And this

12     hotel was donated by a Serb.  His name was Jeftanovic and he was the one

13     who built this hotel.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  What's the distance as the crow flies to Bistrik?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, almost a kilometre.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 800 to 900 metres.

18             MR. WEBER:  Judge, if it assists, I don't think there is going to

19     be much dispute about where hotel Europa is located.  And I -- if it

20     assists the Chamber we can find it on a map, I'm sure.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if the parties agree with that, but in order

22     to understand fully the testimony of the witness, of course, for us it

23     would be important to know what he observed from where exactly.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. IVETIC:  I believe we may have already some evidence on the

Page 26773

 1     record from a protected witness as to the location of that hotel.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It may be.  I hope you'll forgive me for not having

 3     every single line in my head.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I was only reminded of it by my colleague as well,

 5     so I fall into the same boat as Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now, I would like to move to another topic, sir.  How were the

 9     relations with the Bosnian Croats, that is between the HVO and the

10     Army of Republika Srpska, in the zone of responsibility of the

11     Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

12        A.   I am going to talk about what I was personally involved in and

13     what I experienced.  On the 10th or 11th of June, General Mladic sent me

14     to Ilidza.  I accepted unwillingly but I obeyed his order.  He even

15     offered me the post of the brigade commander, which I rejected since I

16     was not an appropriate officer for that.  I wasn't greedy to grab the

17     post and then make some foolish mistake.

18             When I arrived there on the 11th of July, I mean at Ilidza, I

19     inspected the positions from Hadzici and Kiseljak leading to us.  I had

20     an encounter with an HVO representative.  It happened accidentally in --

21     on the pass called Kobiljaca where the house was of another man.  The HVO

22     representative's last name was Bosnjak.  We had a conversation and I told

23     him that Kiseljak had never created problems for Serbs in Sarajevsko

24     Polje and that they should continue in the same spirit and that we don't

25     need to open a front line with them.

Page 26774

 1             I don't know how I would have faired if somebody from the higher

 2     command heard my statement.  It doesn't mean that they heeded my advice

 3     but I had a very frank and sincere conversation with him.  Further on

 4     concerning the relations between the HVO and the SRK, it's something that

 5     I didn't have any impact on.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Well, the answer stands, I guess, now, but we did

 8     have an objection on the broadening of the scope of this topic based on

 9     the lack of notice previously.  I let the initial thing go because we did

10     say that we would be okay with the witness talking about his direct

11     experience which he had been doing up until the last comment.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I don't think we have to -- an

13     observation was made by Mr. Weber.  If you do not disagree with him, you

14     are invited to continue.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I'm trying to find the last comment that he's

16     talking about that goes beyond the witness's personal knowledge.  I'm not

17     locating it in the transcript.  So I'm a little bit confused by his

18     comment, to be quite frank.

19             MR. WEBER:  I rose because when the witness started to say:

20             "Further on concerning the relations between the HVO and the

21     SRK ..."

22             It appeared he was broadening from his experience to more general


24             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not know yet whether he did or he did not.

25     That's when you interrupted him.  It could well be.  It could also be

Page 26775

 1     that he would have stayed within the realm of his own observations.

 2     Mr. Ivetic, but you're reminded of what apparently seems to have been

 3     agreed upon between the parties.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  I know of no such agreement, Your Honour, with the

 5     parties.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't -- you didn't contradict Mr. Weber

 7     yesterday when he said that he would allow you to continue as long as you

 8     stayed within the certain matters, and I thought that that was agreed.

 9     But, if not, there is no agreement and Mr. Weber will be on his feet

10     whenever he thinks that it goes beyond --

11             MR. IVETIC:  That's fine.  I --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  He expects you to -- okay.  Then --

13             MR. IVETIC:  And again, I don't think we've gone beyond anything

14     that was in the proofing statement.  I --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's -- let's move on.

16             MR. IVETIC:  I'm really confused by this because I believe that

17     this was precisely put -- set forth in the proofing statement which was

18     sent according to the same rules that the Prosecution used.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I invite you --

20             MR. IVETIC:  So why do we have different rules?  The Prosecution

21     proofing noting was --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- Mr. --

23             MR. IVETIC:  The proofing note was sent in advance of the

24     testimony.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm now trying for a couple of lines to

Page 26776

 1     invite you to continue and we'll act as we see how the matter develops.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, did you have any personal involvement and personal knowledge

 5     of any other interactions with the Bosnian Croats and/or the HVO in the

 6     zone of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the course

 7     of your deployment during the war?  And if so, could you tell us about

 8     that?

 9        A.   So let us settle this:  That was the only contact I had with the

10     HVO at Kobiljaca.  There were no other contacts.  However, in November of

11     1993, following General Galic's order who was in Vogosca at the time with

12     his staff, when the HVO commander from Kiseljak by the name of Rajic came

13     seeking assistance from General Galic and permission for the Croatian

14     population from Central Bosnia, that is to say between Kakanj, Kraljeva,

15     Suceska, Breza, and Vares, to come to our territory - specifically Nisic

16     Viseran [phoen] - General Galic probably had approval from General Mladic

17     to accommodate the Croat's request, and then Rajic said that he needed a

18     high-ranking officer in order to try to console the people who were

19     frightened to go out and they were anxious.

20             General Galic ordered me to go along with Rajic to the Nisic

21     plateau, or rather towards Vares, and said that I should act as a

22     guarantor that nothing would happen to the population.  We went down to

23     the village of Dastansko.  The sight was terrible.  People were

24     terrified.  It was extremely cold.  There were several thousands of

25     people from Vares and other places.  They reached the Nisic plateau in

Page 26777

 1     the area of Okruglica village.

 2             Rajic and I -- or, rather, I asked Rajic to invite his battalion

 3     commanders so that I can converse with them.

 4        Q.   If we can take one step backwards.  You still have not told us

 5     the circumstances that were in place why these people needed to be

 6     accommodated and why you had to go out there.  What was going on that

 7     these people needed to be accommodated on SRK territory?

 8             MR. WEBER:  Objection.  Foundation.  If it's directly related to

 9     this and he was personally told something, that's fine.  If there is a

10     foundation for it and he was informed of why in direct relation of this,

11     fine.  But the question is overly broad and there has been no foundation

12     established as of yet.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, if there is a risk of the witness going

14     beyond his personal observation, could you --

15             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I was not asking you at this moment anything,

17     Mr. Maksimovic.  Could you phrase the question in such a way that that

18     risk is limited as is possible in the present circumstances?

19             MR. IVETIC:

20        Q.   Sir, if we could limit ourselves to your personal knowledge at

21     that time - that is to say, when you went with Mr. Rajic to meet these

22     people, these Bosnian Croat civilians - what was your personal knowledge

23     of what was going on such that they had to be met by you and accommodated

24     on SRK territory?

25        A.   They quite simply fled the Muslim offensive that was being

Page 26778

 1     launched in the area and hence they crossed over to our territory.  In

 2     other words, they abandoned Vares and other places due to the Muslim

 3     offensive and in fear of retaliation.  This is what I directly knew and I

 4     know about it.  They managed to withstand the offensive for a long time

 5     but ultimately they were defeated.  They crossed over to our territory

 6     and the political leadership gave them permission.  I was there to

 7     operationalise this decision and I acted as a person to whom the Croats

 8     can appeal if they had misunderstandings with someone else.  Eventually

 9     they accepted that and they left to various places including to Serbia

10     over Croatia.  As far as I know, there were no problems relating to their

11     evacuation across our territory.

12        Q.   What can you tell us, again based upon your personal knowledge

13     and direct involvement, about what happened to the Bosnian Croat soldiers

14     from these villages around Vares?  What did they do?  Where did they go?

15        A.   They agreed to cover a 6-kilometre-long front line to fill in the

16     gaps that they had made, and that we all prevent the approach of Muslims

17     to the Nisic plateau.  They remained at these positions for seven months

18     until, I think, June of 1994.  They had agreed to that.

19        Q.   If I could ask a clarification you said in your response, "And

20     that we all prevent the approach of Muslims."  Who is the "we" in this

21     scenario?  Who was working together to prevent the approach of Muslims to

22     say Nisic plateau?

23        A.   Well, we were the Army of Republika Srpska and now we were

24     reinforced by about 1200 Croats from their army who were holding these

25     positions facing Selacke [phoen] mountain which was a gap because they

Page 26779

 1     were in Vares.  Once they left Vares, it opened up a door for the Muslims

 2     to attack the Nisic plateau and we had to defend that because our

 3     survival depended on that.  The Nisic "visoravan" was an extremely

 4     important feature in terms of operational issues.  We kept it under our

 5     control the whole time because there was Serbian villages, Okruglica,

 6     Perkovici, Vacici [as interpreted], and so on.

 7        Q.   Ship-of-the-line Captain Maksimovic, on behalf of my client and

 8     the rest of my team, I thank you for answering my questions.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

10             Mr. Maksimovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.

11     You'll find Mr. Weber to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the

12     Prosecution.

13             You may proceed, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

16        Q.   Good morning, sir.

17        A.   Good morning.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D689 for

19     the witness.

20        Q.   Mr. Maksimovic, coming up will be a document associated to

21     paragraph 70 of your statement.  It is a list of officers at the

22     Pale RKM.  First, can you please confirm for us that this document refers

23     to the officers at the Pale rear command post of the

24     2nd Military District in April of 1992?

25        A.   I have memorised some of the family names.  There is no reason

Page 26780

 1     not to believe that this is an accurate list, that was a forward command

 2     post in the tourist hotel at Pale.  I arrived there --

 3        Q.   Sir --

 4        A.   -- towards the evening of 22nd April.

 5        Q.   Sir, could you please listen to my questions carefully.  I'm

 6     going to try to go orderly and efficiently and ask you very precise

 7     questions.  We see it was called a Pale RKM.  The RKM stands for rear

 8     command post; correct?

 9        A.   Reserve command post is also a forward command post, but later on

10     during the war the tourist hotel was used as a rear facility --

11        Q.   Sir, sir --

12        A.   -- of the corps.

13        Q.   -- I'm going to go orderly here.

14        A.   But that was not the case at the time.  That was not a rear

15     facility at the time, only later.

16        Q.   Okay.  You were assigned this command post between the 22nd and

17     the 30th of April, 1992; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   These were the officers you were assigned to the command post

20     with; correct?

21        A.   No.  They were already there when I arrived.

22        Q.   Directing your attention to the third name on the list, it is

23     Branko Filipovic.  Is it correct that Branko Filipovic was in charge of

24     the operations staff at the command post?

25        A.   Yes.  Branko Filipovic.  He was.

Page 26781

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P03795 for

 2     the witness.

 3        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is a 6 April 1992, 2nd Military

 4     District RKM operations record from Branko Filipovic.  The first

 5     paragraph states:

 6             "The overall activity of this part of the Command has focused

 7     primarily on monitoring the situation in the course of ... operations in

 8     and around Sarajevo.  In addition, we have continued to work on troop

 9     deployments and we have organised communications."

10             Does this report accurately represent the responsibilities of the

11     officers at the Pale RKM in April of 1992?

12        A.   I cannot comment on it.  I arrived on the 22nd of April.  By

13     nature of things, a larger operational command must have a reserve

14     command post.  The main leader of that team was Colonel Brano Filipovic.

15     All I can tell you is that while I was there between the 22nd and the

16     30th, reports were coming in about operations all over Bosnia aimed

17     against JNA members.

18        Q.   Sir, I'm trying to go orderly here.

19        A.   Members --

20        Q.   Just so -- before we get into different topics, were you --

21             MR. IVETIC:  If I could perhaps clarify one thing.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. IVETIC:  The English translation has a word that is not in

24     the B/C/S original.  This document does not mention troop deployments.

25     The deployments are in relation to communications.

Page 26782

 1             MR. WEBER:  Work on deployments.  I will have it checked but I

 2     see that there is maybe a notation that's added there.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, apparently you wanted to seek

 4     confirmation or denial that this was an accurate description.  The

 5     witness said, I can't say because, but for the last ten days of April it

 6     might be that he could answer the question.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  That's what -- Your Honour, that was my next

 8     question.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Sir, were you personally involved in any of the activities that

12     are described in this document once you arrived at the Pale RKM?

13        A.   No.  Furthermore, the team there didn't take me seriously, my

14     being a naval officer.  They didn't give me any tasks or assignments.  I

15     was just sitting and listening to briefings without any participation in

16     them.

17        Q.   Toward the end of this report, it states:

18             "We have maintained constant contact and coordination of

19     operations with the Pale Crisis Staff."

20             Were you aware of this coordination of operations with the Pale

21     Crisis Staff during your time at the command post?

22        A.   I spent eight days there.  Crisis Staffs existed in every

23     municipality which is according to the law.  Obviously, the naval

24     district tried to reduce as much as possible the scope of any combat

25     operations between --

Page 26783

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Which -- I'm stopping you again.  Would you please

 2     answer to questions rather than to tell us whatever comes to your mind.

 3     The question simply was whether you were aware of coordination of

 4     operations with the Pale Crisis Staff during your time at the command

 5     post.  Were you or were you not?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please, next question.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11089 for

 9     the witness.

10        Q.   Sir, coming up will be a 6 January 2000 "Nin" magazine article

11     entitle:  "My Truth."  This was previously shown to you during your

12     testimony in the Karadzic case.  The article contains an interview

13     provided by General Kukanjac, the former commander of the

14     2nd Military District in Sarajevo.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the B/C/S

16     and page 5 of the English translation.

17        Q.   While we're turning to that, sir, do you recall being asked about

18     this article in the Karadzic case?

19        A.   I don't recall being asked about this, although I personally know

20     Kukanjac.  I spent three days with him at the command post.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether you remember to

22     have been questioned about it.  Not whether you knew Mr. Kukanjac

23     personally.  I really have to again stress --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, I have to stress that you shouldn't

Page 26784

 1     interrupt me.  But second, you are at risk that your testimony, which is

 2     given and you are called as a witness by the Defence, that you are at

 3     risk to affect the probative value by not answering questions.  Could you

 4     please keep that in mind.  It's important for the Defence.  It's

 5     important for the Chamber to hear answers to questions rather than other

 6     matters.

 7             Mr. Weber, you have got an answer now.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 9        Q.   Sir, then I'll go -- I'll go back through it with you.  I'd like

10     to direct your attention to subparagraph (d) which is in the middle of

11     the page before you.  This paragraph is in the part of the article where

12     General Kukanjac is discussing what he did since the beginning of 1992.

13     In this paragraph General Kukanjac states:

14             "When we realised what was being done and what was going to

15     happen, we began to pull out the entire mobile assets of the JNA in a

16     timely manner; in an endeavour by both officers and soldiers, employing

17     perfect organisation, we managed to pull out, preserve, and retain

18     everything; even if there had been cases of seizure by the enemy, we

19     would immediately make it up manifoldly; the Muslim-Croat horde never got

20     hold of a single plane, helicopter, tank, armoured personnel carrier,

21     gun, mortar, motor vehicle ...," and then there is an ellipse.

22             Do you see this portion of the article?

23        A.   Yes, I do.  I do.

24        Q.   I put it to you that this information contradicts your evidence

25     relating to the weaponry left behind for the ABiH, and specifically what

Page 26785

 1     you say in paragraph 66 of your statement which is that:

 2             "JNA weapons stayed in the Viktor Bubanj, Marshal Tito,

 3     2nd Military District command, and Jusuf Dzonlic barracks."  Do you

 4     agree?

 5        A.   I don't agree with that.

 6        Q.   Yeah.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I tender this article into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 11089 receives number P6816,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             Witness, could I ask you about this same paragraph.  You said JNA

13     weapons stayed in all these barracks including heavy weapons.  Could you

14     be a bit more precise.  What heavy weapons stayed in the Viktor Bubanj,

15     Marshal Tito, and the Jusuf Dzonlic command posts or barracks?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say explicitly that things

17     stayed there, but they did.  I don't know how much.  I don't know what

18     quota [indiscernible].  As for what I stated, I base that on my stay at

19     the corps.  I learned that from operative organs and the activities in

20     Sarajevo that were -- [In English] Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I didn't ask you where you learned it.  First of

22     all, I read your statement:

23             "JNA weapons stayed in all these barracks including heavy

24     weapons ..."

25             So that you didn't say that they stayed there is at least not in

Page 26786

 1     line with your written statement.  My question simply was:  Including

 2     heavy weapons, what heavy weapons if you know?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that they had 105-millimetre

 4     howitzers as well as two or three tanks.  I don't know any further

 5     details.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, they stayed in these barracks, if I

 7     understand you well, or is it that you say, We later learned that they

 8     had these available?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principles, those stayed there

10     and then there was activities which proved that that was the case.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, nothing stays anywhere in principle.  Either

12     something stays somewhere or it doesn't stay somewhere.  Do you mean to

13     say that you have no exact knowledge about it but that you assume or that

14     you conclude that they must have stayed there?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I conclude that the Marshal Tito

16     and other barracks were abandoned and they -- the people simply ran from

17     those and that they left combat assets behind.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You concluded that.  You have no personal

19     knowledge, no personal observation of that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             It's time for a break.

23             We take a break, Mr. Maksimovic.  We would like to see you back

24     in 20 minutes.

25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

Page 26787

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 5 minutes to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, perhaps needless to say but the portion

 6     you put to the witness and suggested to him that there was a

 7     contradiction, there is not necessarily a contradiction between the two

 8     because if General Kukanjac says something about even if there had been

 9     cases of seizure, it -- what the witness said does not exclude that these

10     were those cases.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, now we have heard his later answers about his

13     knowledge about the matter, so there's no need.  But please be careful in

14     suggesting or putting to a witness that there is a contradiction when the

15     text does not fully justify such a position.

16             MR. WEBER:  I understand what Your Honour is saying and thank

17     you.  I'm actually -- based on Your Honour's questions, I'll move to a

18     different topic.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

20             MR. WEBER:  And I was going to follow up on that with P4946 just

21     so the Chamber has the record which would further provide information on

22     that.  So it was going to be a segue, but Your Honour established a lack

23     of personal knowledge, so I'm not going to further explore the topic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.  It was also a more general --

25             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.

Page 26788

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- observation.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Maksimovic, I'm going to change topics with you now and I

 5     want to discuss a figure you mention in paragraph 7 of your statement.

 6     In your statement you state that the SRK had about 22.000 men.  Is it

 7     your evidence that the SRK never had more than 22.000 men between 1992

 8     and 1995?

 9        A.   This is indeed my evidence.

10             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31413 for

11     the witness.

12        Q.   Sir, before you is a comparative review of changes in strength of

13     the SRK for the period of 4 April to 31 December, 1992, with updated

14     information as of 24 February, 1993.

15             Before we discuss some of the details in the document, do you

16     recognise the units that are mentioned in this review under the name of

17     unit column?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way to enlarge it for the witness so

19     that we only have the ...

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, these are some figures which

21     surpass mine, but I guarantee that the 22.000 who were armed, that's what

22     I had in mind.  This is everybody, even the auxiliary personnel.  They

23     were all members of the corps.  In operative terms, there were only

24     22.000 troops and of those only 12.000 fighters one could rely on.  If

25     you reduce the figure even further and if you select from those --

Page 26789

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you about some of the formations in here.  I was

 3     just wondering if you recognised the units mentioned.  Just so that we

 4     make sure that we have a common understanding of the document, I just

 5     want you to focus quickly on number 12 which refers to the first Rpbr

 6     with what appears to be a full strength of 6.043.  And then according to

 7     my math, if you subtract the killed and wounded soldiers, a current

 8     strength of 5.254.  Do you see that information?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you -- Witness, Witness --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat?  Something

11     about 6.000?

12             MR. WEBER:  If we could have the centre of the document enlarged

13     for the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness is asking you to repeat --

15             MR. WEBER:  And then I was just making sure that he could see it.

16     If we could please have the centre of the document further enlarged for

17     the witness.

18        Q.   Sir, I just want to follow across --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The centre of the document should be enlarged.

20             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  Potentially --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Especially line 12.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   Sir, what I was referring to, it appears according to this report

25     that the 1st Rpbr has a total, a full strength, according to this

Page 26790

 1     document, of 6.043 which we see, if you read across to the right, on --

 2     on the line, is there.  And then there is a number of 193 and -- related

 3     to the number of killed members of that brigade.  And 596 for the wounded

 4     members.

 5             MR. WEBER:  And then if we could please scroll over to the right

 6     a little.

 7        Q.   We see that there -- in the last column, which is entitled "The

 8     Current Strength," there is a number of 5.254.  Do you see this

 9     information?

10        A.   Yes, but the date?  When was this recorded?  Was it in 1992?

11        Q.   So --

12        A.   What is the date of the table?  What is the date?

13        Q.   If we could -- I read it to you.

14             MR. WEBER:  But if we could then zoom out.

15        Q.   What this review indicates is that it's for the period of 4 April

16     to 31 December, 1992, and then right underneath that you can see that

17     it's updated with current information from 24 February, 1993.  So it

18     would be our position that that final column to the far right would

19     reflect the number based on the current information as of the

20     24th of February, 1993.

21             Sir, do you understand that that -- that's how this document

22     reads?  Just before discussing it with you, I just want to make sure that

23     we are on the same page.

24        A.   This document contains some parts of the former JNA.  If we are

25     talking about the 4th of April, 1992, they were deployed in the logistics

Page 26791

 1     base.  This --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness ---

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is astonishing.  What I'm

 4     reading is astonishing.  Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the actual strength as the document appears

 6     to be present is the 24th of February, 1993.  Wait for a question.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You understand how the table is structured.  Wait

 9     for the question Mr. Weber will put to you.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Just so we have clarification, is it correct that the

12     1st Romanija Brigade, Light Infantry Brigade was the largest SRK brigade

13     which is reflected in this document with the highest totals of personnel?

14        A.   I didn't deal with numbers.  That was at the beginning of the

15     war.  Later the number was reduced and that's why I said 22.000.  It is

16     possible that it was that many but not all of those were operative

17     members of the staff.  A lot were auxiliary personnel.

18        Q.   Okay.  So when you say "operative," do you mean active members of

19     the military as opposed to reserves?

20        A.   No, no.  That includes reserves.  Nobody was active there.  They

21     were all reservists.  It was a people's army.  None of them were

22     22-year-old recruits.  They were troops ranging in age from 20 to 60.

23     And for your information, sir --

24        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...  ^ 10589 2.30.07

25        A.   May I?

Page 26792

 1        Q.   We've heard a lot of information about these things so I'm not

 2     going to dwell too much on it.  I just -- want to just direct your

 3     attention to lines 16 to 18.

 4        A.   [In English] Okay.

 5             MR. WEBER:  If we could scroll over to the left for the witness a

 6     little bit.

 7        Q.   We see that there is reference to the Rajlovac, Vogosca, and

 8     Kosevo Brigades.  We'll talk about these brigades some more a little bit

 9     later, but right now while we're on this document, is it correct that

10     these three brigades joined together and became part of the

11     3rd Sarajevo Brigade when it was formed in early 1994?

12        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, they all became the 3rd Vogosca Brigade.

13     The Rajlovac and Kosevo Brigade, that is.

14        Q.   Okay.

15        A.   It is correct.  They were united into another third brigade

16     because both the Rajlovac and Vogosca had less men than a brigade.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, none asked you why it was.  Mr. Weber was

18     just seeking whether they were joined in the third brigade.  You've

19     answered that question.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please tender this document

22     into evidence.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31413 receives number P6817,

Page 26793

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Sir, is it correct that individuals were mobilised into the SRK

 5     during the early months of the war?

 6        A.   Please repeat.

 7        Q.   Sir, is it correct that individuals were mobilised into the

 8     Sarajevo Romanija Corps during the early months of the war?

 9        A.   I can't answer your question because I have to respect the

10     Chamber's request.  I was not present when those things were done, so I

11     cannot answer your question.

12        Q.   Okay.  I'll move on to something else then.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31430 for

14     the witness.

15        Q.   Before you will be appearing a 28 May, 1992, order from SRK

16     commander Tomislav Sipcic related to the training of young soldiers.

17     Under item 1, the order states:

18             "All Corps units are to assemble mobilised young men who have

19     still not done military service and send them to Pale municipality to

20     undergo training lasting 30 days."

21             At the end of the paragraph, the order states:

22             "After the 30-day training, the young soldiers will be sent to

23     combat arms units, where they will continue their specialist training in

24     order to be trained for combat specialities."

25             As a member of the corps command at the time, can you tell us

Page 26794

 1     what type of specialist training was provided for these individuals after

 2     their initial training in Pale?

 3        A.   I never spoke to Sipcic.  I never communicated with him.  At that

 4     time I was in Sokolac and I assisted Lieutenant-Colonel Bosanac in

 5     establishing a brigade in Sokolac, so I wouldn't know anything about

 6     this.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, is your answer that you do not know what

 8     kind of specialist training was provided for these individuals that had

 9     been after their initial training?  You do not know or do you know?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what training it is,

11     Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in handling --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then answer that question because that was the

15     question.  What was the specialist training?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was actually basic training in

17     using basic armament; i.e., rifles.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that after the 30-day training that what is

19     described here as specialist training, is that when they learned how to

20     handle a rifle?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the training.  And then

22     after that people are ear-marked for various specialties as signalsmen,

23     as mortar crew members, and so on and so forth.  That's how things should

24     have been.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's where they got specialist training on?

Page 26795

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Basic, yes.  Basic.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Judge, if I could make a go?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   Sir, in the initial training, did everyone receive -- when they

 6     joined the SRK, did they receive what you are describing to be basic

 7     training?

 8        A.   Whoever was recruited had to undergo that to be made usable.  Can

 9     I add something else?

10        Q.   Sir, is this what you are referring to as basic training?  Just

11     so we can have some idea of what you're discussing.

12        A.   We are talking about young lads who had not served in the army

13     before.

14        Q.   Sir, sir, before explanations, I'm just trying to figure out for

15     the record is this what you're referring to as basic training?  What

16     everyone went through when they joined.

17        A.   Yes, the basic training was accelerated and those who had never

18     held a rifle in their hands before - I'm talking about young lads - had

19     to undergo that.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's pause here for a second and just go step by step.

21     As part of this basic training when they learned to handle rifles, would

22     they be taught marksmanship with those rifles?  How to fire those rifles

23     with accuracy.

24        A.   It's routine training.  There was fire practice, targets, firing

25     in order to dispel fear of arms in rukez ^ c.  There is nothing

Page 26796

 1     specialist about that.  This is basic training where they are taught how

 2     to defend themselves from an attack and how to respond to an attack.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you again and please just focus on my

 4     question:  Now, were you aware that at this time that the SRK, as part of

 5     its rifles, possessed M48 and M76 rifles?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, it seems that you're very busy

 7     reading rather than listening to the question.  The SRK, part of its

 8     rifles, did they possess M48s?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of them were M48s.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So the answer is yes.  Did they possess M76 rifles?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course they had those as well.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Next question please, Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   Now, would people be -- receive training on these M48 and M76

16     rifles as a part of the basic training or would that come after?

17        A.   You're asking me about this training.  I told you that people

18     were recruited and then whatever follows.  And as for the pace of

19     training, the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- process of training, I was not

22     in charge.  I wouldn't know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, during the first basic training, did newly

24     recruited soldiers learn how to fire M48s and/or M76 rifles?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course --

Page 26797

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- they underwent that training.

 3     It all depended on what weapons they were given.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question.

 5             Next question please, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   In paragraph 36 of your statement, you claim that "the level of

 8     training at the SRK can be called lack of training."  Sir, it actually

 9     seems that you have awareness of the fact that there was training that

10     was offered from the very outset of the war.  I put it to you that this

11     contradicts the evidence or at least the portrayal of how you've depicted

12     it in your statement.  Do you have any comment?

13        A.   Yes, I do have comment.  The contingent that was trained, they

14     were -- it was a small number of people.  I don't know how many.  Perhaps

15     across the entire corps, perhaps several hundred men were trained.  As

16     for the rest, those were mostly people who had served in the former JNA.

17     They didn't undergo any training.  They were poorly trained.  They could

18     only fire a bullet if somebody opened fire at them and to defend

19     themselves in that way.  That's why I said that there was a general lack

20     of training across the military.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I just put the question to him for the

22     sake of putting our case to him, so the Prosecution would tender 31430

23     into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31430 receives number P6818,

Page 26798

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   Sir, I just want to go through a little bit of your positions to

 5     hopefully provide some clarity on this.  Is it correct that you were

 6     assigned to the morale and information sector of the

 7     2nd Military District between the 30th of April and 15th of May, 1992?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Yesterday you testified, and this is at transcript pages

10     26756 to -57 that you first met General Mladic at his request on 15 May,

11     1992, and that he referred you to General Gvero after you had introduced

12     yourself.  Do you know why General Mladic sent you to General Gvero?

13        A.   On the 15th of May, the 2nd Army District was no longer.  When I

14     was released from hotel Europa, I came to Pale, I was at the forward

15     command post, and I was invited to report to Crna Rijeka to

16     General Mladic on the 14th of May.  I told you about our encounter

17     yesterday.  And then he referred me to General Gvero because he was the

18     assistant for morale in the Main Staff.

19        Q.   After you saw General Mladic, did General Gvero give you a

20     further assignment; and more specifically, your assignment to the

21     Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

22        A.   On the 15th of May, the atmosphere was very heavy because of the

23     events in Tuzla and Brcanska Malo [phoen].  The first thing that Gvero

24     ordered me to do ...

25        Q.   Sir, if you could answer my question, did General Gvero give you

Page 26799

 1     a further assignment to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?  Just a simple yes

 2     or no.

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Okay.  At that time, was it your understanding -- or actually,

 5     where did he assign you at that time?  Or did he provide you with an

 6     assignment?  I guess I'm ahead of myself.

 7        A.   The assignments are made according to the will of the commander.

 8     On the 24th of May or the 23rd, I went to help Lieutenant-Colonel Bosanac

 9     in setting up a brigade at Sokolac to be his assistant and to participate

10     in the forming of the brigade.

11        Q.   Okay.  Does that have anything to do with any of your encounters

12     with either General Mladic on General Gvero on the 15th of May?

13        A.   Well, yes, General Gvero was acting probably on orders of

14     General Mladic when he told me to go there.  I accepted that and I went

15     there.

16        Q.   Okay.  In terms of your official assignment, is it correct that

17     you served as part of the morale guidance, religious, and legal affairs

18     sector of the SRK command between 15 May and 22 June, 1992?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Okay.  Was your superior during this time Colonel Ljuban Kosovac?

21        A.   Ljubo did not issue any orders to me.  I -- or immediately went

22     to Ilidza on the north-westerly axis and I remained there until my

23     departure for Belgrade.

24        Q.   Okay.  And -- we -- just so we're clear, this is just between the

25     period of 15 May and 22 June, 1992; correct?

Page 26800

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Is it correct that you were assigned to the military

 3     history institute of the VJ General Staff administration for information

 4     and morale guidance between 28 July, 1992, and 1 April, 1993?

 5        A.   No, I was working at the institute.  No.  I returned to my former

 6     position.

 7        Q.   Okay.  When you say that -- just so we're clear, I'm saying that

 8     you did work for the military history institute during this period, and

 9     was that the military history institute of the VJ General Staff

10     administration for information and moral guidance?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   In paragraph 4 of your statement, you indicate that you returned

13     to the SRK on 1 April, 1993.  Upon your return, were you assigned to the

14     SRK command sector for moral, religious, and legal affairs?  That's the

15     sector you were assigned to; correct?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   During this time, is it correct that you were subordinate to

18     Colonel Kosovac, who was the assistant commander for moral, religious,

19     and legal affairs at the SRK command?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And thank you, sir.  I appreciate those clarifications.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31433 for

23     the witness.  Okay.

24        Q.   Sir, this is a -- what I'd like to discuss with you, actually,

25     just so you understand the topic, a little bit further, the tasks of your

Page 26801

 1     department and the SRK.  Before you is a plan of moral guidance and

 2     psychological activities and informing.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And if we could actually go to the last page in both

 4     versions, quickly.  And if we could enlarge the very lower right corner,

 5     the signature area in the B/C/S version for the witness.

 6        Q.   Sir, directing your attention to the lower right, can you confirm

 7     that this is the signature of Colonel Kosovac?

 8        A.   This is his signature.  I do not know it, though.  But I think it

 9     is his signature.  I have never seen it, therefore I cannot memorise it.

10        Q.   Okay.  You recognise the stamp of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

11     command; correct?

12        A.   It says here that this is the command of the

13     Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

14        Q.   I understand what the stamp says --

15        A.   I never looked carefully at any stamp, so I cannot --

16        Q.   Let's go through the document.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please return to the first page

18     in both versions.

19        Q.   Under item 1 of this plan entitled, "Moral and Informing," the

20     plan lists as a permanent task --

21             MR. WEBER:  And I believe that's now cut off for the witness in

22     the B/C/S version.

23        Q.   As a permanent task:

24             "Present the objectives of defence and the liberation struggle

25     adopted by the RS state and political leadership."  Was this one of your

Page 26802

 1     tasks?  And I just see the --

 2        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

 3        Q.   As a permanent task, it says:

 4             "Present the objectives of defence and the liberation struggle

 5     adopted by the RS state and political leadership."

 6             Was this one of your tasks, to present these objectives?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes, it was.  Let me just look at the heading.

 8        Q.   Sir, let me know when you're ready for me to continue.

 9        A.   You may continue.

10        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  We see that the plan lists news agencies as

11     one of the cooperating bodies.

12             MR. WEBER:  If we could scroll over a little bit to the right for

13     the witness.

14        Q.   Does this mean that these objectives were intended to be

15     presented through the media?

16        A.   Well, we didn't have any specific contacts with the media.  That

17     was not done at our level.  That was more at the level of the Main Staff

18     and the civilian authorities.  Our exclusive scope of work involved only

19     the corps in direct communication with the men who were manning the

20     positions.

21        Q.   Okay.  Well, do you know if the objectives being referred to

22     here, and that's the objectives of defence and the liberation struggle,

23     if they were presented at all through the media with statements

24     emphasising how the VRS is defending the endangered position of the

25     Serbian people in age-old Serbian lands and things of that such?

Page 26803

 1        A.   That was not done at the corps level but rather at a higher

 2     level, so there is nothing disputable about this.

 3        Q.   And that's how the -- the Main Staff level presented these

 4     objectives; correct?

 5        A.   I cannot remember what the Main Staff used to say or tell.  I

 6     cannot comment on that because I was not aware of what was the Main Staff

 7     doing and how the civilian authorities at the republican level were

 8     operating in terms of disseminating information.

 9        Q.   And, sir, just so you understand my position on this, it appears

10     according to this document that the responsible -- who's from -- it's

11     from your superior.  It appears to indicate that the responsible body for

12     this is the SRK command.  So it would be our position that the command of

13     the SRK was also involved in this, just so you understand that.

14             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have the last page of

15     both versions.  And if we could assist the witness by focusing on item 2

16     on the page.

17        Q.   Under item 2 there is another permanent task which, according to

18     this, the responsible body is the organ for moral guidance, religious,

19     and legal affairs in the SRK and the units.  The permanent task that's

20     listed here states:

21             "Through systemic spreading of misinformation in the media, cover

22     up our real intentions and instigate conflicts and dissent among the

23     enemy's ranks and the ranks of the enemy's supporters."

24             Is it correct that one of the tasks of your organ was to

25     systematically use the media to spread misinformation that covered up the

Page 26804

 1     real intentions of the Army of Republika Srpska?

 2        A.   Now I am starting to doubt this document because this is all new

 3     to me.  Now this item that speaks about religious activities.  I never

 4     met any of the priests during the war.  And as for these other entries, I

 5     cannot confirm it.  As I said, I am becoming suspicious about this

 6     document.

 7        Q.   Sir, you haven't answered my question.  Was this one of your

 8     tasks, to spread misinformation in the media?

 9        A.   No, no.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender this document into

12     evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you have any explanation, Witness, as to why

14     this document says that this is a task for the organ for moral, guidance,

15     religious, and legal affairs in the SRK, whereas you say it was not -- at

16     least not part of your task?  Do you have any explanation for this?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With pleasure I can do that.  This

18     is the first time that I'm seeing this document describing these

19     activities.  My official title was assistant commander of the corps for

20     moral guidance; however, my main duty was to offer assistance on the

21     north-westerly axis.  Therefore, I wasn't very much involved in these

22     activities but rather in the activities of patching up gaps in the

23     establishment that occurred.  In other words, I wasn't very much involved

24     in all of this.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I see that you are saying that this was not

Page 26805

 1     what you were tasked with.  Were you aware of others performing a task as

 2     described here within the organ for moral guidance, religious, and legal

 3     affairs in the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to tell you that the organ

 5     for morale of the SRK was rather inert and passive.  They didn't do much

 6     in that area.  And, Mr. President, as I told you, the very fact that

 7     people were defending their own home ground, their families, was quite

 8     sufficient.  We didn't need anyone to boost our morales further.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So I do understand your answer to be that you

10     are not aware of anyone in your organ for moral, guidance, religious, and

11     legal affairs of the SRK to be involved in the performance of such a

12     task?

13             MR. WEBER:  Judge, could I ask a follow-up question?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Ivetic is on his feet, so I ...

15             MR. IVETIC:  The document was tendered.  I'm waiting to object to

16     the document based upon the witness's suspicions raised about the

17     document, his inability to confirm the content of the document and his

18     inability to confirm the signature on the document.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  Well --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

22             MR. WEBER:

23        Q.   Mr. Maksimovic, so you're aware, this document comes from the

24     archives in the Kozara military barracks in Banja Luka.  And it's our

25     position that it is authentic.  Before I ask you something related to

Page 26806

 1     that, is it correct that you attended the morning meetings of the corps

 2     command?

 3        A.   Yes, in most cases.  Whenever I was in Lukavica, the general

 4     would invite me.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And you've already said that Colonel Kosovac was your

 6     superior.  I put it to you that you're purposefully distancing yourself

 7     from knowledge in this document because it is unfavourable to the sector

 8     that you were a part of.  Do you have any other comment?

 9        A.   I don't think you're right.  I have no ill-intentions.  I made a

10     declaration to speak the truth.  However, if there is something

11     dubitable, I cannot confirm it either in a positive or a negative way.

12             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would again tender this document.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have one further question.  You said you

14     expressed some doubts of the document.  Could you tell us what your

15     doubts are apart from the content which we have discussed?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Due to its contents.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of its --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Especially the entry relating to

19     religious affairs.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's content rather than the format or the

21     appearance of the document.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I just have a

23     minute to tell you something?  Sometimes there are some sentences which

24     are rather for the sake of formality.  You know that an impression is

25     made that there was some religious impact.  However, in practice there

Page 26807

 1     was very low intensity of these activities.  This was more for the sake

 2     of --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We are discussing at this moment the document, not

 4     whether the tasks as described in this document were performed or

 5     achieved.  That's a different matter.

 6             Mr. Weber, the document apparently is an attachment number 6 to

 7     another document.  Do you know what it is related to?

 8             MR. WEBER:  I do, Your Honour.  And if I could have a second

 9     here.  I believe it's related to the plan of moral and psychological

10     activities and informing of the -- if I could just have one second.

11                           [Prosecution Counsel Confer]

12             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  It was the document I thought it was.  We've

13     also uploaded the report that it was a part of, 65 ter 31435.  We'd be

14     happy to tender both of the documents into evidence.  There is some of

15     the language reflected in this, the other report, which was drafted by

16     Colonel Kosovac and approved by General Galic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, it's fine that you give me a number.  But that,

18     of course, doesn't tell me much about, apart from that it's attached to

19     another document which has a number.  That's what it tells me.

20             MR. WEBER:  The other document is the plan of moral and

21     psychological activities and informing of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps,

22     and it was -- I have it down as signed being by Colonel Kosovac and

23     approved by General Galic.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then does it have a date?

25             MR. WEBER:  The plan is actually undated.  But based on the

Page 26808

 1     individuals that are assigned, basically Colonel Kosovac, it would be our

 2     position that it's sometime in 1993.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we have that on the screen, 65 ter 31435?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now this plan apparently is -- what we see on our

 5     screen now is an attachment number 6 to something else as well?

 6             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.  I see that it's part of what is listed as

 7     Drina, and I believe, if my recollection serves me right, I can confirm

 8     further over the next recess, but there was a whole series of attachments

 9     to the Drina materials and there were multiple attachments.  So this

10     civic attachment that I'm bringing up is the attachment number 6, which

11     is the plan related to moral and psychological activities and informing

12     of the SRK and the attached list, because that was the topic that I was

13     going to go into with the witness since it pertained to his sector.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Now, Mr. Ivetic, you said it was about the doubts of the witness.

16     We know more about what kind of doubts the witness has.  The witness

17     doesn't know the document, so that is clear that we could not deal with

18     it as introduced in, I would say, the traditional way by the witness.  At

19     the same time, the witness gave evidence about matters that are described

20     in the document.  Is there any objection against admission in more

21     general terms?

22             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, under what bases?  What is the bases for

23     admission?  What is the rule or the bases for admission?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the rule is -- the rule is -- I believe we

25     have had that about 50 or 60 times, that the witness gives evidence about

Page 26809

 1     matters which are directly related to what we find in documents.  And

 2     under those circumstances, I think we deviated from a kind of general

 3     rule that bar table documents should be combined.  And that's the

 4     basis -- would be the basis for admission, I take it, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:  And I am -- as a member of the corps command, I am

 6     also offering this to go to his credibility.  So he's denied it and he

 7     hasn't confirmed things, but --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there are two things.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the kind of objections Mr. Ivetic refers to

11     and the purpose --

12             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of admitting the documents.

14             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Purpose is not the same of admissibility in itself

16     which is about relevance of probative value and that is not something

17     invoked by Mr. Ivetic.

18             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Thank you for that clarification.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

20             MR. IVETIC:  Responding only to the issue of the bar table

21     submission of document.  Your Honours have now said that you have

22     deviated from a rule.  I am operating under guidance that Your Honour has

23     issued as to when the Prosecution was to make final bar table submissions

24     of documents.  If the document is being presented for the truth of the

25     matter asserted in the document, I submit it is improper to do it through

Page 26810

 1     a witness who has no personal knowledge about the document and then to

 2     say it is a bar table submission.  The time for such submissions has

 3     passed and we need to know the entirety of the case that the Defence must

 4     answer of the Prosecution.  We cannot be constantly adding to the

 5     Prosecution's case when it suit the Prosecution during the Defence case.

 6             We don't know how to deal with these documents.  We relied upon

 7     the guidance of the Chamber when the final bar table submissions of the

 8     Prosecution would be and what case we would have to answer in our Defence

 9     case, and now we're being surprised with new documents at every turn with

10     every witness.  As you've said, this has happened 50 or so times.  I

11     don't think it has been 50, but it has happened a number of times with

12     witnesses.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently it escaped your attention what the

14     reasons were for the Chamber not to make those part of general bar table

15     submissions but rather admit them in the context of a testimony of a

16     witness.  The objection is denied.

17             Madam Registrar, let me just see whether you have given a --

18             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, I don't know if you want one or

19     both of the documents.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we were discussing the original document.

22     That objection is denied.  Now -- yes, then let me just see.  That was,

23     Madam Registrar, was number?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document number 31433.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The number would be?

Page 26811

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number P6819, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  P6819 is admitted into evidence.

 3             The reasons for the denial of the objection, Mr. Weber, for the

 4     document which is on our screen now, do not apply.  I hope that you're

 5     aware of that because you've not asked any question about the content of

 6     this document to the witness.

 7             MR. WEBER:  I -- I would just leave it to your discretion and

 8     [Microphone not activated]

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Microphone, microphone.

10             MR. WEBER:  I was only seeking to tender the first one.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.

12             MR. WEBER:  And I was just leaving it to your discretion whether

13     you wanted the second one or not.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not tendering it?  That's what I establish.

15             MR. IVETIC:  It's time for the break and my client had sent a

16     message asking for the break now.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take the break now, then.

18             Mr. Maksimovic, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We

19     resume at 10 minutes past 12.00.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Ivetic, there seems to be a confusion now

24     and then about the admission of documents.  When I used the word "bar

25     table" as an other option, I perhaps have not been very clear in my

Page 26812

 1     language.  Perhaps I should have talked about the admission of a document

 2     not through someone who is, has personal knowledge about that document or

 3     is familiar with it already or -- and that, of course, would include the

 4     author of a document, but rather speak about that category than bar table

 5     because bar table is the avenue through which the document is introduced

 6     whereas the category I was referring to was of a different kind.  It's

 7     not an avenue through which but it is about the relation of the document

 8     with the testimony given by a witness.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  But the Chamber will come with some further

11     explanation on this soon so that we avoid any confusion in the near

12     future.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I would appreciate that, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, could I provide some further

16     information.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may do so.

18             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I just wanted to make sure that there

19     was an accurate statement concerning the list that I just tendered that

20     was an attachment.  During the break - and this is P6819 -- during the

21     break I was able to acquire further information.  It's part of a register

22     of documents from the SRK corps -- well, the corps, delivered to the

23     Main Staff of the VRS, and we have the cover for it which is dated the

24     2nd of February, 1994, and these were two of the -- what was shown and

25     admitted was one of the attachments and then the second document was also

Page 26813

 1     one of those attachments.  So I just wanted to give that to the Chamber

 2     so that it was informed of that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that information.

 4             You may continue, Mr. Weber.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Mr. Maksimovic, I would now like to switch topics with you and

 7     discuss someone who you have previously testified about.  Is it correct

 8     that you are familiar with Slavko Aleksic?  At this time I am simply

 9     asking yes or no.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Slavko Aleksic never undertook anything on his own initiative

12     without the knowledge of the SRK command; correct?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   Slavko --

15        A.   As far as I know.

16        Q.   Slavko Aleksic acted exclusively pursuant to orders passed

17     through the SRK chain of command?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   Correct?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

22             MR. IVETIC:  I believe that the manner in which these questions

23     are being asked calls for specification.  Without talking about specific,

24     concrete acts or specific, concrete circumstances where in these

25     statements might have been said, the simple assertion in a very generic

Page 26814

 1     and vague manner about an individual I believe is --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are two.  To some extent, I do agree

 3     with you, Mr. Ivetic.

 4             First of all, Mr. Weber, the answer to the first question is most

 5     likely not reliable and that relates to the question because whether

 6     Slavko Aleksic never undertook anything of his own initiative without the

 7     knowledge of the SRK command, you mean to say in a professional context

 8     which, of course, is not part of the question.  I may take it that he has

 9     gone into town and buy a bread without the previous.  Therefore, and that

10     is the second issue, and I tend to agree with Mr. Ivetic, if you ask him

11     whether the witness is aware of any occasion where Slavko Aleksic

12     undertook anything on his own initiative without the knowledge of the SRK

13     command, then you have phrased the question in such a way that the answer

14     is -- and then still in his professional capacity I would say because the

15     witness may be familiar with the acts and conduct of Mr. -- of the

16     person --

17             MR. WEBER:  I --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- on a private level.

19             MR. WEBER:  I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's just a matter of phrase it in such way

21     that you avoid any of the comments rightly --

22             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- put by Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. WEBER:  I will do this another way.  I was trying to be

25     expedient and just confirm previous things I'd stated.  Could the

Page 26815

 1     Prosecution have 65 ter 31442, page 19.

 2        Q.   And, sir, is it correct that you previously -- well, I'll just go

 3     through this.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you repeat the number of the document.

 5             MR. WEBER:  31442, 65 ter.

 6        Q.   Sir, during the Karadzic proceedings you were asked about a

 7     quotation from actually the Seselj case and something Mr. Seselj said

 8     during his proceedings.

 9             MR. WEBER:  And then going to -- going to line 18.

10        Q.   The question that was posed to you in the Karadzic case was:

11             "And just with regard to the content of that statement, I'd like

12     to read to you from page 8673 of the transcript in the Seselj proceedings

13     something that Dr. -- or Mr. Seselj quoted, and I'd like to ask if you

14     can confirm that.  He says, starting at line 6, that you wrote, referring

15     to you:

16             "'Aleksic never undertook anything of his own initiate or without

17     the knowledge of the corps command.  He acted exclusively pursuant to

18     orders.'"

19             You were then asked:

20             "Can you confirm that that's what you set out in your statement

21     from Mr. Seselj."

22             Your answer was:

23             "I can confirm that because that was also the opinion of the

24     corps command" --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can we turn the page, please.

Page 26816

 1             MR. WEBER:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Thank you, Your Honour.  And if I can

 2     have the next page.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we need only one version because there is no

 4     B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The next page doesn't seem to say what you were

 6     saying, Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  I think we're on a different page.  I'm looking for

 8     31578 which should be page 20 of this upload.  And as I'm continuing

 9     reading here.

10        Q.   Your answer was, starting at line 2 here:

11             "I can confirm that, because that was also the opinion of the

12     corps command, that he did not do anything.  He just defended his small

13     area of responsibility very difficult and very dangerous, the

14     Jewish Cemetery."

15             Do you stand by this evidence?

16        A.   I do.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution now have 65 ter 30852.

18        Q.   Sir, I do want to discuss a little further with you Mr. Aleksic

19     in relation to this document.  This -- coming up before you will be a

20     16 December, 1993, request for ammunition from Slavko Aleksic.  According

21     to the document, he was the commander of the anti-tank company of the

22     Jewish Cemetery.  Were you aware that Mr. Aleksic held this position as

23     part of this company?

24        A.   I must tell you how I met Aleksic.  When I arrived in the corps,

25     I --

Page 26817

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You must answer the question, Witness.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well then.  Correct.  He was

 3     in charge of anti-tank combat.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   The document indicates that it was sent to a battalion commander

 6     by the name of Blagoje Kovacevic.  Is it correct that Blagoje Kovacevic

 7     was actually the brigade commander of the 1st Smbr at this time in 1993?

 8     I'm just asking you this for clarification purposes.

 9        A.   What date is that?

10        Q.   December 1993.

11        A.   I believe that Stojanovic was commander that year.  Aleksic had a

12     low rank.  Later on he was in the Igman Brigade or Blazuj Brigade.  I

13     can't confirm about Kovacevic.

14        Q.   Well, in terms of the zone of responsibility at the time in the

15     Jewish Cemetery, is it correct that that was in the zone of

16     responsibility of the 1st Smbr, the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

17        A.   Yes.  It was within the zone of responsibility of the

18     Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade, and I just remembered that Kovacevic was the

19     commander of the battalion.  He was not in direct -- he was in direct

20     contact with Aleksic because Aleksic was a member of that battalion.  Now

21     we have clarified that matter.

22        Q.   Okay.  Now I want to further explore what other detail knowledge

23     that you have regarding this company with this document.  And if you

24     could look over the types of ammunition being requested.  Were you aware

25     that Mr. Aleksic's company possessed weaponry for this type of

Page 26818

 1     ammunition?  So if you could take your time, look at the list, and then

 2     let me know what your answer to your question -- my question is.

 3        A.   Yes, this is ammunition for infantry defence.  He had a very

 4     small area in the Jewish Cemetery.  7.62, 7.9.  Yes, that's the

 5     ammunition.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And also --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was --

 8             MR. WEBER:

 9        Q.   Well, whether he was aware.  Because I'd like to know -- because

10     you're made a very general statement about Mr. Aleksic.  We do have

11     further details, so I'm just probing the depth of your knowledge, so --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But even -- Mr. Weber, your question was whether --

13             MR. WEBER:  -- whether you were aware.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the company possessed weaponry for this type of

15     ammunition, and then the witness said --

16             MR. WEBER:  I --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- this was ammunition for infantry defence but he

18     has not told us whether weaponry, in which this ammunition fits in,

19     whether that was available.

20             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  Well --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  If you don't want to -- if you want to skip that

22     question, fine, but --

23             MR. WEBER:  I'm not there yet, Your Honour.  I believe that

24     page 58, line 3, my question was actually phrased "were you are aware,"

25     so I was first seeking to confirm what the witness's level of awareness

Page 26819

 1     was.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 3             Please proceed, then.

 4             MR. WEBER:

 5        Q.   So were you aware that Mr. Aleksic's company possessed this

 6     ammunition?  Or possessed weaponry for this type of ammunition that we

 7     see here?

 8        A.   I am not sure about all of the ammunition.  I'm just aware of the

 9     calibre 7 and 12.7 to the ordinal number 7, that is.

10        Q.   And when you're saying that you're aware of that, you're aware

11     that there was rifles that could fire that type of ammunition that was in

12     the possession of this company?

13        A.   I don't know what they had.  I toured those positions only once.

14     When I provided a statement for Aleksic, I had consulted with

15     Colonel Lugonja and asked him whether he had acted on the orders of the

16     command and he confirmed that he did.  He was very disciplined when it

17     came to combat operations in Grbavica.  I'm talking about Aleksic.  So he

18     was under the strict command of the corps and he obeyed that.

19        Q.   When did Colonel Lugonja tell you this?

20        A.   People who were in charge of the Seselj Defence asked me if I

21     could say something about Aleksic.

22        Q.   Sir, that's not my question.

23        A.   And I told them --

24        Q.   I was asking you, you just mentioned that Colonel Lugonja

25     provided you information concerning Mr. Aleksic.  When did he tell you

Page 26820

 1     this?

 2        A.   When I drafted a statement for Aleksic.  Lugonja was a very well

 3     informed man.  The best informed man in the corps.

 4        Q.   Could you give me year?

 5        A.   [In English] Question?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  When did Mr. Lugonja tell you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  Ten years ago,

 8     when we talked when I drafted that statement.  That wasn't something I

 9     would try to remember because I thought it was a matter of routine.  I

10     put some questions to him.  He read what I wrote.  He confirmed that

11     everything was correct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you present that in your statement as

13     information by Mr. Lugonja or did you present that in your statement as

14     information from yourself?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just told you.  I consulted

16     with Lugonja.  I read one page to him and he agreed with everything.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I've heard that and that caused me to put this

18     question to you.  Did you in your statement say, "This is what

19     Mr. Lugonja told me and I'm presenting it as such to you," or did you

20     present it as your own knowledge?

21             Is the statement available, Mr. Weber?

22             MR. WEBER:  [Microphone not activated]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But could you please answer my question, whether --

24     how you presented that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed that statement with full

Page 26821

 1     Lugonja's consent.  The text, I mean.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That was not my question.

 3             Mr. Ivetic, we slowly are coming to a point where the Chamber has

 4     to consider whether or not it makes any sense to continue this

 5     examination where the witness on numerous occasions again and again and

 6     again is not answering questions.

 7             MR. IVETIC:  I disagree, Your Honour.  And I think Your Honour is

 8     taking a position that is unfair.  And I ask Your Honour to consider the

 9     question that you asked and the answer that you received when you asked

10     just now, if I can go back, at line 19 through 20:

11             "Did you in your statement say, 'This is what Mr. Lugonja told me

12     and I'm presenting it as such to you,' or did you present it as to your

13     knowledge?"

14             And then you ask, "Is the statement available ..."

15             Could you please answer my question how you present it.

16             And he said, "I signed that statement with full Lugonja's

17     consent," which is not a perfect translation of what was said in Serbian.

18     But, in any event, he said he signed the statement with --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And of course I was talking about presenting

20     it as far as the content is concerned and not as far as signatures are

21     concerned.

22             MR. IVETIC:  Which you can follow up with, but to present it as

23     the witness is not answering your question, I believe, is a severe -- is

24     a more drastic interpretation of what the witness actually said.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Look at page 60, line 15, where I explained to the

Page 26822

 1     witness quite clearly what I meant by presenting, whether he said, This

 2     is what Mr. Lugonja told me or, This is what I -- in the statement.  And

 3     I am -- I have taken notice of your observations, Mr. Ivetic, and so has

 4     the Chamber, and I would remind Mr. Mladic that he should not speak

 5     aloud.

 6             I have a few questions.  The statement for Mr. Aleksic, Witness,

 7     Witness --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, if you speak aloud again, you know what

10     the consequences will be.  If there is any problem with the translation?

11     Apparently there is.

12             Mr. Mladic apparently does not receive interpretation.

13             Mr. Ivetic, the reference I just gave was a wrong one.  The line,

14     I think you should focus on, is page 60, lines 18, 19, and 20, where I

15     further explained what I meant with how it was presented.  I leave it to

16     that for the time being.  I just correct my reference.

17             Has the problem with the audio been resolved?  It has been

18     resolved.

19             MR. IVETIC:  It totally has.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can continue.  Yes.

21             I was asking you, Witness, that statement for Mr. Aleksic, in

22     what context did you prepare that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His people.  People who were in

24     charge of his Defence.  They asked me to do that in Zemun.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And was that statement, as far as you're aware of,

Page 26823

 1     ever used?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is any of the parties aware of any statement given

 4     by this witness in relation to Mr. Aleksic?

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the core of our initial awareness was

 6     based on what Mr. Seselj said during his case and how he represented it,

 7     so then, no.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Likewise from the Defence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon?

10             MR. IVETIC:  Likewise from the Defence.  The only reference is

11     the reference in the transcript to where it was read in the Karadzic case

12     referring to the Seselj case.  I've not seen a physical statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Then we don't have that available.  It

14     is --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But nonetheless, maybe we can -- can I just ask a

16     few questions here.

17             Sir, you drafted the statement and you showed it to

18     Colonel Lugonja.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And having done that, you then signed it as your

21     own statement.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             Just to make it clear, in your statement you didn't refer to

25     Colonel Lugonja, you just submitted it as your own statement?

Page 26824

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I signed it.  But I stand by

 2     what I said.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much and I appreciate that.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, can I tender the document into

 6     evidence?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 30852 receives number P6820,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, for the next topic I'm going to

12     explore something that -- could I go into private session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26825

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 26826

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Sir, is it correct that you were ordered to report to the Vogosca

 4     tactical group on 11 July, 1993?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You were ordered to the Vogosca tactical group two days after it

 7     was formed; correct?

 8        A.   Probably.  I cannot remember.

 9        Q.   Was it shortly after its formation?

10        A.   I know that it was summer time and that General Galic asked me to

11     go up there to provide assistance because they had a shortage of

12     manpower.

13        Q.   The commander of the Vogosca tactical group was Dragan Josipovic;

14     correct?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   As of July 1993, you were subordinated to Dragan Josipovic of the

17     Vogosca tactical group command; correct?

18        A.   Yes, that was, however, a temporary strength or composition.

19        Q.   Well, is it correct that for that temporary assignment, and we

20     understand that tactical groups are temporary in their formation, is it

21     correct that you were part of the command staff of the Vogosca tactical

22     group?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   General Galic came to visit the command of the Vogosca tactical

25     group two or three times per month; correct?

Page 26827

 1        A.   No, that was not a rule.

 2        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking if it was a rule.  I'm asking if that is what

 3     occurred.  Is it correct that General Galic came to visit the command of

 4     the Vogosca tactical group two to three times per month?

 5        A.   It never happened that he would come two or three times a month.

 6     He would come whenever he felt it was convenient or appropriate for him

 7     to come, but it was never three times in a month.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, during your time there, approximately how many times

 9     per month do you recall him coming to visit?

10        A.   He did not come specifically to Vogosca.  Whenever he came, he

11     would visit Ilijas, Hadzici, and other places, the whole area.  I cannot

12     tell you exactly.  He came according to his own schedule.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's see if we can make this shorter.

14             MR. WEBER:  But, unfortunately, Your Honours, I need to return

15     into private session for it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We return into private session.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26828











11  Page 26828 redacted.  Private session.















Page 26829

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Now, sir, the units subordinated to the Vogosca tactical group

Page 26830

 1     were the Vogosca Brigade, the Ilijas Brigade, the Rajlovac Brigade, and

 2     the Kosevo Brigade; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that the zone of responsibility for the

 5     Vogosca tactical group extended to the Grdonja feature as part of its

 6     eastern border and included a portion of Mrkovici?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The western border of the tactical group's zone of responsibility

 9     included Rajlovac; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31235 for

12     the witness.

13        Q.   Sir, this is a 1 March, 1994, SRK command report from

14     General Galic to the VRS Main Staff.  According to the beginning of the

15     report, there was a 5 February order from the VRS Main Staff concerning

16     TG Vogosca, and then General Galic indicates that the Rajlovac, Kosevo,

17     and Vogosca Brigades had been integrated into the 3rd Spbr.  Is it

18     correct that the Vogosca tactical group was disbanded in February 1994

19     when these three brigades were merged into the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?

20        A.   That is correct.

21        Q.   Is it correct that Dragan Josipovic was made the commander of the

22     3rd Sarajevo Brigade?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is it correct that you were the deputy commander of the

25     3rd Sarajevo Brigade up until June 1994?

Page 26831

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Throughout your statement, you describe various positions you

 3     held during this time-period; in particular, I'm referring to

 4     paragraphs 4 and 15.  Is it correct that you failed to mention that you

 5     were the deputy commander of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade in your statement?

 6        A.   I did not forget that.  I think I did mention it, mention that.

 7     But then again, it was a provisional situation.  There was no commanding

 8     officer.

 9        Q.   Well, sir, in paragraph 4 of your statement you say:

10             "Between 1 April, 1993, and 1 September, 1994, I was at the

11     Sarajevo Romanija Corps SRK command."

12             And in paragraph 15, you say:

13             "Due to the lack of command staff as assistant for morale, I was

14     occasionally dispatched in 1993 and 1994 to the north-western front to

15     the Vogosca 3rd Sarajevo Brigade and the Igman Brigade."

16             And then you say where the brigade's zone of responsibility

17     stretch from.  So my question was actually very precise.  In those

18     paragraphs you do not mention your position and that being that you were

19     the deputy commander of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade; correct?

20        A.   That is not so.  Both de facto and de jure, I was in the corps

21     and I was discharging those duties.  So that is correct.  I discharged

22     those duties in my capacity of a member of the corps staff.  However, it

23     was Galic who made all the decisions that were relevant for me.

24        Q.   Okay.  The Chamber has your statement, so I'm not going to go in

25     circles with you about what is and is not in there.  But just for

Page 26832

 1     fairness, I'm also going to put to you that you don't mention in your

 2     statement that -- your assignment to the command of the Vogosca tactical

 3     group.  Do you have any comments on that?

 4        A.   I don't know how it happened that way, how it went unnoticed.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Let's go on.  Is it correct that Miroslav Krajisnik became

 6     the assistant commander for morale in the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   In the report in front of us, General Galic indicates that the

 9     3rd Sarajevo Brigade was formed as an infantry brigade with all elements

10     and units ready to accomplish combat tasks.  Is it correct that the 3rd

11     Sarajevo Brigade took over the weaponry and equipment which was

12     previously available to the Rajlovac, Kosevo, and Vogosca Brigades?

13        A.   They didn't take over anything.  Everything was left on the

14     positions, only organisation-wise it was the 3rd Sarajevo.  According to

15     its capacity and its numbers, it was below the standard that is

16     applicable to a brigade.

17        Q.   Okay.  You're speaking about qualifications, but I think you've

18     answered my questions for the most part.

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 31235 into

20     evidence.  And we note for the record that the 5 February, 1994 -- oh,

21     I'm sorry, Your Honour.  That the 5 February, 1994, Main Staff order

22     referred to in this document is admitted as P4345.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31235 receives number P6821,

25     Your Honours.

Page 26833

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Sir, have you ever heard of Operation Lukavac 93?

 4        A.   Yes, I have.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Today at temporary transcript page 7, you stated:

 6             "No territories were ever attacked, not even outside of the zone

 7     of Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  I'm not aware of that."

 8             My question to you is:  Do you consider that the 546 square

 9     kilometres of territory that was liberated by the SRK during the

10     Lukavac 93 operation to be an offensive operation, an offensive action?

11        A.   That was a well-thought out operation including the mountainous

12     area between Jahorina and Treskavica in order to achieve a link-up

13     between the territories of Herzegovina and the Romanija plateau.  It was

14     a very treacherous terrain for this operation.

15        Q.   Sir, you're not answering my question.  Just simply, do you

16     consider that to be an offensive operation?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have -- I'm sorry, it's

20     Exhibit P6549, currently marked for identification.

21        Q.   Sir, before you is General Galic's 26 June, 1993, order for

22     further operations concerning Operation Lukavac 93.

23             MR. WEBER:  And I'm going to ask that we actually go directly to

24     page 3 in both versions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have the English on the right side of our

Page 26834

 1     screen.

 2             MR. WEBER:  And I was looking for page 3 in both versions.  I

 3     believe we have it in the B/C/S but not the English.

 4        Q.   Sir, I'm going to direct your attention to the first full

 5     paragraph after the indentations.  The paragraph states:

 6             "The goals of the offensive are linking of the majority of our

 7     forces ..." I'm not sure actually if this is correct "... compromising of

 8     offensive activities of Rajlovac and Vogosca Brigade and possible

 9     unblocking of Sarajevo from the direction of Visoko."

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could the English version be enlarged a bit.

11             MR. WEBER:  And it's the upper third.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             MR. WEBER:

14        Q.   Sir, considering your role in the Vogosca tactical group, did you

15     participate as part of the operations Lukavac 93, as part of the -- as

16     part of those operations that came after this order?  We see reference to

17     two subordinate brigades of the tactical group, the Rajlovac and

18     Vogosca Brigades.

19        A.   The primary task of the tactical group was to defend its zone of

20     responsibility, and it did so parallel with the Lukavac 93 operation.

21     Since there was great danger, General-Colonel Milosevic was there in

22     order to reinforce our defences.

23        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that this paragraph is -- contradicts what

24     you keep on describing as a defensive, because it clearly says that these

25     are offensive activities, "The goals of the offensive ..."

Page 26835

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you abandoning the question you had asked

 2     which was not answered?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if you want the -- yeah -- I'll defer to

 4     you on my next question if you'd like the --

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I want to know if you are abandoning it.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Well, I think you have kind of answered this in part.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that these two brigades -- that they were under the

 8     Vogosca tactical group as part of these operations, these offensive --

 9     what's described as offensive?

10        A.   These brigades stayed at their positions.  They didn't go

11     anywhere.  They were not involved in offensive operations between

12     Jahorina and Treskavica.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, at this time.  Your Honours.  I think

14     we're back.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  I would tender this document into evidence at this

17     time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a number already.  I believe it's already an

21     exhibit.

22             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  Ms. Stewart just actually

23     reminded me of something important, that was it was MFI'd pending a final

24     CLSS translation which we do not yet have.  So if we can just keep that

25     of record then the --

Page 26836

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then the --

 2             MR. WEBER:  MFI should stay.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it's said here that the OTP intended to use

 6     this document with another witness --

 7             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- later.

 9             MR. WEBER:  I'm now using it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You are now using it with another witness but still

11     it's not translated.  We'll wait for the translation.

12             Mr. Ivetic.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I rise, although I don't know if the -- well, the

14     inference has been made that the witness somehow is -- said that there

15     were no offensive actions.  That's not what he said, and I turn to the

16     paragraph 10 of this statement which is actually talking about this

17     precise operation that we have just had cross-examination about where he

18     actually identifies it as being offensive operations.  So I think that

19     there has been a little bit of misrepresentations in terms of the actual

20     testimony of this witness on record about this operation which is not at

21     all contradicted by the testimony that we have just heard.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One second please, Mr. Ivetic.

24             Yes, Judge Moloto may have a question for you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ivetic, I'm looking at this paragraph 10 where

Page 26837

 1     from line 2 it says:

 2             "During which time it carried out offensive operations ..."

 3             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But I thought you were rising on the fact that

 5     these were not offensive operations but defensive operations.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  No, no.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm mindful -- okay.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  What I'm saying is that the Prosecution had

 9     intimated that this witness had denied that offensive operations had been

10     undertake by the SRK and the witness's testimony is to the opposite which

11     he has confirmed again today.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My apologies.

13             MR. WEBER:  But I think a lot of this is argument and we're not

14     necessarily spending time on it but the original question related to

15     statement today in court in which he said no territories were ever

16     attacked, not even outside the zone of Sarajevo Romanija Corps.  So I was

17     using Lukavac 93 because it's actually the most dramatic example of

18     taking of areas before that, so...

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And then we --

20             MR. IVETIC:  And then we had the follow-up of that in court today

21     where he said no solely Muslim areas were attacked.  No exclusively

22     Muslim areas were attacked.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's also, to some extent, semantics, whether an

24     attack --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

Page 26838

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- is always offensive or whether a counterattack we

 2     have had that --

 3             MR. IVETIC:  And Your Honours have heard a lot of evidence about

 4     this operation too.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And let's leave it to that at this moment.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I see the time.  I do not have much

 7     more.  I will finish rather early in the next session.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Before the end of the day.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then how much time you think you would need?

11             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to go to one more document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One more document.

13             Mr. Ivetic, how much time you would need in re-examination?

14             MR. IVETIC:  I should be able to finish within ten minutes, eight

15     to ten minutes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it still could make sense to have the next

17     witness standby.

18             Therefore, could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom.

19     We'll take a break.  We would like to see you back in 20 minutes,

20     Mr. Maksimovic.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And we will resume at 1.30.

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.12 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, if I may use the time.

Page 26839

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Just so the Chamber doesn't think I made up a random

 3     figure, I -- in my -- in one of my previous questions, I referred to

 4     546 square kilometres taken during Lukavac 93.  The source of this was

 5     P4439, page 2.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, you may proceed.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31425.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's P6821 -- I beg your pardon.  I'm sorry.

10     I'm wrong.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Sir, coming up before you is a 14 April, 1994, VRS Main Staff

13     intelligence sector security department report from

14     Colonel Ljubisa Beara.

15             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have page 2 in both versions.

16        Q.   In the first paragraph of the report, Colonel Beara states:

17             "On 12 April, 1994, I was at Sarajevo 3rd Infantry Brigade

18     attending a briefing of the battalion and assistant commanders.  The

19     briefing was led by Colonel Maksimovic, the Brigade Chief of Staff.  The

20     briefing was also attended by 'Vojvoda' Jovo Ostojic, the commander of

21     the SRS volunteers detachment which came to 3rd Spbr at the end of

22     March."

23             Do you recall this meeting?

24        A.   The meeting did take place, I'm sure.  I remember.  But like

25     through a fog.

Page 26840

 1        Q.   Okay.  Well, do you recall who attended the meeting besides

 2     yourself and Colonel Beara?

 3        A.   I'm sure that the commanders of the brigades were there.

 4        Q.   Okay.  You sound like you might be guessing.  Do you have any

 5     clear recollection of individuals who were present at this meeting?

 6        A.   I only remember the issues that they had with Ostojic.  When they

 7     were unarmed, the problem was how to arm them.  There were no weapons.

 8     We managed to gather some weapons.  They were dispatched to their

 9     positions.  They did not feel safe in their positions.  After 25 days I

10     disarmed them and I returned them to where they came.

11        Q.   Sir --

12        A.   This is true and nothing else.  As for the rest --

13        Q.   Sir, is it correct that this SRS volunteer detachment, when it

14     came to the 3rd Spbr, was under your command since were the chief of

15     staff which correlates to the deputy commander?

16        A.   Yes, they were subordinated to the command.

17        Q.   Which included you; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In the second paragraph, Colonel Beara indicates that you

20     complained to him about Jovo Ostojic and Vukasin Kuzman, aka Pena, a

21     member of the SRS and a former battalion commander at Rajlovac Brigade

22     who blamed you "for not getting the volunteers any automatic weapons,

23     uniforms, and other equipment while they were 'dying for the Serbian

24     people.'"

25             I know you've briefly commented on this so far, but was that --

Page 26841

 1     was that exactly what your complaint was?

 2        A.   Kuzman was not the commander of the Rajlovac Battalion.  He was

 3     the commander of the Krivoglavci, Josenac Brigade.  As for Jovo Ostojic,

 4     I can't complain of him.  I talked to him.  He accepted my suggestions.

 5     With his help, I managed to send them back.  He was listening, he saw

 6     that things were not as they should be, and that's why he returned.  I

 7     had a lot of problems with Kuzman because he is a very arrogant man.  He

 8     is not up to the responsibility of the task.

 9        Q.   Sir --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

11             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- again Mr. Weber read to you what was reported by

13     Mr. Beara.  Now, what he read to you, that you had complained to him, is

14     that accurate?  Did that happen?  Did you not search complaints as read

15     to you?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that I complained because

17     some people did not want me there.  Beara did not make things up.  He did

18     not invent that complaint.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So the way in which he describes your complaints is

20     therefore accurate; is that well understood?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:

24        Q.   At the end of the paragraph, and this is paragraph -- the second

25     paragraph, Colonel Beara states:

Page 26842

 1             "Maksimovic rose above the whole thing and ordered his logistics

 2     assistant to equip the volunteer unit."

 3             Is it correct that this is what you did:  You gave orders to

 4     provide weapons to these volunteers?

 5        A.   Yes.  We asked for weapons, we found them in the Ilijas and

 6     Vogosca Brigade, and we armed them.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of the

 8     English version and stay on the same page but at the bottom of the B/C/S.

 9     This is the top in the English.

10        Q.   Sir, directing your attention to the last paragraph on the page

11     before you --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go to the top of the --

13             MR. WEBER:  English.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- English page.

15             MR. WEBER:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   In this paragraph Colonel Beara states:

17             "On 26 March, 95 volunteers came to the brigade and another seven

18     on 11 April.  They were given an area around Golo Brdo and Zuc to

19     defend."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It reads "or Zuc."

21             MR. WEBER:  "Or Zuc."  Thank you for the clarification,

22     Your Honour.

23        Q.   In your statement you claim that there were 30 unarmed volunteers

24     who came to the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade.  Is it correct that in fact the

25     number of volunteers that came to the brigade were greater than what you

Page 26843

 1     have said so far in your statement?

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 26844

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             You may proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             If we could please turn to P6816, the first page in both

14     languages.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

16        Q.   Sir, while we wait for the document I will tell you this is the

17     article from "Nin" magazine from the year 2000; that is, I guess, a form

18     of an open letter from General Kukanjac which you were asked questions

19     about during the cross-examination.

20             Now, the title of the piece is "My Truth," and then in the first

21     paragraph of both versions, it is explained that General Kukanjac

22     approached the "Nin" editorial board and wanted to repudiate some

23     allegations published in their magazine.  And in the preamble to his

24     letter, it states that the allegations as to his name were in 1999.

25             Were you aware of the allegations or criticisms of Kukanjac that

Page 26845

 1     would have been circulated in 1999 that he was responding to by way of

 2     this open letter?

 3        A.   I didn't know that.

 4        Q.   Were you aware of any negative comments or besmirches to the

 5     reputation of Kukanjac that were circulated following his withdrawal from

 6     Sarajevo and from the 2nd Military District of the JNA?

 7        A.   The 2nd Military District was disbanded.  Kukanjac and I talked

 8     in Belgrade on several occasions.  He complained about some people in

 9     Belgrade.  He did it publicly.  He said that they did not show support

10     and understanding for his position while he was in Sarajevo.  I can't say

11     anything bad about Kukanjac or his attitude towards me or our

12     relationship.  He came to where I lived in collective housing on several

13     occasions.

14        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to then move on.  You were asked at temporary

15     page 29 about the number of troops in the SRK, and this was in relation

16     to document P6817.  And while we wait for that document, at temporary

17     transcript page 29 you said that the SRK had 22.000 men under arms of

18     which only 12.000 were fighters you could rely on.  What exactly did you

19     mean?  What kind of distinction were making between the 22.000 and the

20     12.000 figure?

21        A.   The 12.000 that I mentioned were soldiers who were engaged on the

22     lines of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps on the inner circle bordering on the

23     city.  As for the rest of them, that was a semi-combat complement of the

24     military.  They were employed in the rear -- in the elements of the rear.

25     Further on, I wanted to say that the Sarajevo Romanija Corps was

Page 26846

 1     stretched to its outer limits.  Unlike the enemy side which had three

 2     times as many soldiers and their soldiers were resting for three days

 3     since then they would spend one day in the trenches, this means that the

 4     Sarajevo Romanija Corps was never a danger for Sarajevo.  It was never a

 5     source of hardship in the city of Sarajevo.  And I can also say that --

 6        Q.   Sir --

 7        A.   -- the Army of Republika Srpska, including the

 8     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, could never have taken Sarajevo because Sarajevo

 9     could never have been taken from the low lying land but from the hill

10     tops.  All the enemy forces entered Sarajevo from Pale.  The Main Staff

11     never undertook any preparations to that effect.  Let's sum up.  The

12     Sarajevo Romanija Corps was there to protect the --

13        Q.   Sir --

14        A.   -- the Serbian substance in Sarajevo field.

15        Q.   -- you were asked by Mr. Weber whether the distinction between

16     operative and auxiliary troops was a reference to active and reserve

17     officers and you said it was not, but you were not asked to give your

18     definition of what is the difference between an operative and auxiliary

19     troop or soldier.  So please tell us, what is the difference between

20     "operative" and "auxiliary" troops?

21        A.   Operative units could manoeuvre, could go to different theatres

22     of war, who could be engaged in defence and in attack.  And in the

23     Sarajevo Romanija Corps, when I say "operative," I mean that they were

24     there to protect the area and territory under the control of Serb forces.

25             Let me give you an example.  A modern brigade of the former JNA,

Page 26847

 1     in case of a war, it would have crushed the Sarajevo Romanija Corps

 2     immediately.  A modern brigade had 3- to 4.000 people and was considered

 3     a truly operational unit.

 4        Q.   And now if you could define for us what is the core element that

 5     defines an auxiliary unit?

 6        A.   Auxiliary units are mainly units of the rear, quartermasters

 7     service, technical service.  Every brigade has that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now looking at the documents that was presented to

 9     you, P6817, here among the various units that are identified and for whom

10     personnel are counted, we see, for instance, the transport battalion

11     number 5, the medical battalion at number 4, the engineering battalion at

12     number 6, the military prosecutors office at number 19, the military

13     court at number 20, and the -- the Han Pijesak RNC at number 11.  Would

14     such personnel be considered combat ready troops in military parlance?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And would they --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Should we pay so much attention to this?  Only a

18     slight difference.  22.000, 20.000 is almost the same, and it becomes

19     clear that -- I mean, that military courts are not the best ones to put

20     at the front, Mr. Ivetic, or even prosecutors.

21             Mr. Weber, it goes without saying.

22             Therefore, I -- Mr. Weber has paid some attention to the accuracy

23     of the number of 20.000, where the document brings us to 22.000 actual

24     serving.  I wonder whether we should pay that much attention to these

25     details.

Page 26848

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Well, Your Honours, it was raised by the Prosecution

 2     as an --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  -- effort to discredit this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. IVETIC:  And I'm going through it and we see his explanation

 7     for it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  That was not given during the cross-examination when

10     it was suggested that the difference between the operative and auxiliary

11     is active and reserve.  So I'm trying to clear the record and give

12     Your Honours the full evidence so that you can know the truth.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the reason why I let you go for a while,

14     but I can tell you that the military courts had caught my eyes already.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I wasn't necessarily -- I mean, yes.  I

16     think, Your Honour, the Prosecution would slightly disagree with the

17     reading of it in terms of your focussing on the current strength, I

18     believe, as of 24th February, 1993.  But the column -- the full strength

19     of the RJA which --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but then you should have asked the witness

21     whether it was ever at full strength and not just -- -

22             MR. WEBER:  Well, the document speaks for ourselves would be our

23     position.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the statement of the witness does not

25     contradict that because he never said, The full strength, which was not

Page 26849

 1     only on paper which we ever had, was 30.000.  You should have clarified

 2     that, to start with.

 3             Let's move on.  I think the issue is perfectly clear at this

 4     moment.

 5             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 6             Then I only again would thank Ship-of-the-line Captain Maksimovic

 7     for his testimony.  That was the last question I had in redirect.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Maksimovic, since the Bench has no further -- let me first,

10     Mr. Weber, I had forgotten that you still have a round to go.  No

11     questions from the Prosecution.  This means that this concludes your

12     evidence, Mr. Maksimovic, and it concludes your testimony, and we would

13     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

14     answered all the questions and we even noticed that you would even go

15     further and would have told us more, but I take it that you understand

16     that what we should focus on is best defined by the parties and the

17     Chamber always supports that.  But it's appreciated that you wanted to

18     give a lot of information.  We wish you a safe return home again.  You

19     may follow the usher.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you.

21             Could I be allowed to say goodbye to the general?  Maybe it would

22     be a precedent, but I would like to do that and then I will go.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact.  No, it is -- the accused has

24     heard that you wished to do that.  That should do it.  It's not common in

25     a court that the witness greets the accused even when he has concluded

Page 26850

 1     his testimony.  But the accused certainly has heard your request which

 2     may mean something to him.

 3             You may follow the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  [Interpretation] Very well then.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  Our next witness is

 8     Mr. Mile Ujic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the witness be escorted -- yes,

10     apparently the Prosecution gets a bit nervous.

11             For what reason, Mr. Traldi?

12             MR. TRALDI:  Not at all, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Just to note that Mr. Lukic and I had agreed that

15     this particular witness should be informed of his rights under Rule 90(E)

16     before his testimony commences.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'll read Rule 90(E) to him.

18             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, just to make some space, if I

19     could ask your permission for Ms. Lee and I to be excused, although

20     it's --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You are.  You are excused.

22             Language sometimes is puzzling, to ask for permission to be

23     excused.  I take it that the Prosecution intended to ask to be excused.

24             Yes.

25             MS. BIBLES:  That's accurate, Your Honour.

Page 26851

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Ujic.  Before you give evidence,

 3     the Rules require that you make the solemn declaration.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The text is handed out to you now.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I solemnly declare that

 7     I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILE UJIC

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Ujic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ujic, in relation to the solemn declaration you

13     have given a second ago, I'd like the draw your attention to the

14     following Rule, and I'll first read it to you:

15             "A witness," that would be you, "may object to making any

16     statement which might tend to incriminate that witness himself.  The

17     Chamber may, however, compel the witness to answer the question.

18     Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a

19     subsequent prosecution against the witness for any offence other than

20     false testimony."

21             So if you fear that by giving a truthful answer you might

22     incriminate yourself, please address me and you can ask for not having to

23     answer that question in order to avoid that you would incriminate

24     yourself.  Is that clear to you?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Clear.

Page 26852

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Lukic.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ujic.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I would just ask the assistance of the usher so we

 7     provide Mr. Ujic with his clean statement.  We can show it to the

 8     Prosecution first, please.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, as always, it is helpful to ask the

10     witness for his name --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- especially in this case because the name was,

13     I think, not properly reported in the transcript.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, can you please slowly state your full

16     name for the record?

17        A.   Your Honours, my name is Mile Ujic.  I was born on the

18     25th of May, 1951, in Rogatica.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In front of you, you have a document.  Do you

20     recognise it?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   What is it?

23        A.   That's my statement given to the Defence team.

24        Q.   Let us just pause between questions and answers to allow the

25     interpreters to do their job.

Page 26853

 1        A.   Very well.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see 1D1701 on our screens, please.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can you say the number again, please.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  1D1701.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  We just missed that.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Ujic, do you see the signature on the cover page of this

 8     document?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  It's my signature.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now go to the last page

11     on this document.

12        Q.   Do you see a signature on this page and do you recognise it?

13        A.   Yes, I do.  It's my signature.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Is what is contained in this statement as your

15     account truthful and accurate?

16        A.   To the best of my recollection, it is both truthful and accurate.

17        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

18     essentially give the same answers?

19        A.   I would give the same answers using the same words, let's say, in

20     99 per cent of the cases.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender this

23     statement into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1701 receives number D691,

Page 26854

 1     Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Before we start, actually, I forgot to ask Your Honours for the

 6     extension of direct.  We sent e-mails yesterday to the Prosecution and to

 7     Your Honours, and we would ask for one hour instead of 30 minutes for

 8     direct examination of this witness.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  We certainly have no objection, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no objections.

11             Mr. Lukic, you can proceed.  We'll not stop you at the usual

12     30 minutes.  But, of course, it always depends on how it develops.  Use

13     your time as efficiently as possible and if you bring good, solid

14     evidence to the Chamber, then we would give you even more.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

17             MR. LUKIC:  I hope I won't need more.  Thank you.

18             First I will read statement summary of this witness and I will

19     proceed with the questions, with your leave, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22             And I have to admit that this statement summary will be a bit

23     longer than its usual, but not too long.

24             Mile Ujic was born on 25th of May, 1951, and lived in Rogatica.

25     Shortly after the multiparty elections in 1990, he was elected president

Page 26855

 1     of the Rogatica Executive Board.  He was later appointed as department

 2     head of the Rogatica Defence Ministry and acting chief of the

 3     Rogatica Brigade.

 4             According to Mr. Mile Ujic, nationalist provocations began to

 5     manifest themselves in early 1991.

 6             In June 1991, the Rogatica secretary for national defence

 7     mobilised the reserve forces to assist with the crisis.  Of the reserve

 8     members of the Rogatica Brigade, 60 per cent had been Muslims.  However,

 9     a great number of Muslims did not respond to the mobilisation and those

10     who were mobilised to Han Pijesak and Zaluzani were later returned by bus

11     at the initiative of the SDA party.

12             While all military-fit Serbs were mobilised into the

13     216th Brigade, Muslim men filled the reserve police and received weapons.

14             It was clear that from early 1992 onwards there was no unity in

15     Rogatica.  Police was divided and then in May 1992, the assembly

16     unanimously voted for the division of Rogatica into Muslim and Serb

17     territories.

18             The war in Rogatica began with the murder of a Serb, Mihaljovic,

19     Drazenko, on the 22nd of May, 1992, after which the Muslims refused to

20     return his body.  Following this, the city was not safe to walk around.

21     Many Serb families moved to the countryside and Muslim families move to

22     Sarajevo and Gorazde.

23             Mile Ujic was aware that Muslim extremists burned down many

24     houses of Serbs who had left the town.  They also set fire to Serbian

25     bars, a hotel, synagogue, and the power station, leaving Rogatica without

Page 26856

 1     electricity for a long time.

 2             The Rogatica municipality Serb Territorial Defence warned Muslim

 3     citizens to surrender weapons.  Some Muslims did surrender weapons and

 4     those who did took refuge in a high school together with Serbian and

 5     Croatian families and others who were afraid of the war.

 6             Most people in Muslim villages were armed and ambushes were often

 7     carried out on Serbian civilians using the roads.  The Serb Crisis Staff

 8     and the Serb Territorial Defence command asked these Muslims to

 9     peacefully surrender weapons in exchange for security, but some did not

10     accept this.  Those villages who were reluctant to join the conflict

11     surrendered weapons and enjoyed full protection.

12             During the liberation of Rogatica, the Rogatica Brigade suffered

13     losses.

14             This was the statement summary of Mr. Ujic's testimony.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You've got a few more minutes to ask the first

16     questions to the witness.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Ujic, thank you for being patient.  We

19     only have a few minutes so let me first ask you something about the army

20     of Muslims in the Rogatica area.  Can you please explain to us the

21     position of the chief of police in Rogatica in the wake of multiparty

22     elections and in view of the division of offices within the police in

23     Rogatica?

24        A.   Yes, I'll do that.  As it was said at the beginning of my

25     statement, following the first multiparty election, I was appointed the

Page 26857

 1     president of the Executive Committee that had five members.  According to

 2     the ratio of population, the power divided --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are invited to speak slower so that the

 5     interpreters can follow you.

 6             Could you please resume.  You said, "According to the ratio of

 7     population, the power divided ..." and would you resume from there.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 60:40 per cent, which means that

 9     the Muslims had three members on the Executive Committee, whereas the

10     Serb side had two members, myself and another one.  By that logic of

11     majority people, it was the Muslims, the three members of the committee,

12     had the right to choose the departments that they wished.  We were given

13     two other departments.  One of those departments was the public security

14     station.  However, as a rule, at least at the time of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15     where the chief of the police was a Muslim or a Serb, the police station

16     commander would be a member of our other ethnic group.  We expected that

17     since they had taken the position of the chief of the police station that

18     we would be given the police commander as a Serb.  However, that did not

19     happen.

20             That position was covered by Ramiz Alajbegovic, the former

21     commander of the police station, who was also at the same time in charge

22     of the police reserve force.  So this post that we were given in terms of

23     the division of power was as actually not being observed and honoured.

24     So we didn't have any representative in the police.

25             This same person, Ramiz Alajbegovic, recruited members for the

Page 26858

 1     police reserve force following the departure of the Serbs.  He was left

 2     with the Muslim conscript.  At the same time, incidentally or not,

 3     Muslims returned from training in Croatia and were immediately integrated

 4     into the police reserve force.  All of them were given weapons, automatic

 5     rifles and suchlike.  So all of a sudden, the police grew manyfold

 6     compared to the one that existed before the war.  All of this contributed

 7     to increased anxiety among the Serbs who felt endangered and threatened,

 8     not only because they were a minority but because many of the conscripts

 9     were mobilised for the Han Pijesak Brigade which even increased to the

10     level of minority that we were, and it aggravated the situation even

11     more.

12             It was also difficult for me to work as the president of the

13     Executive Committee because I was under the pressure on the one hand from

14     the Serbs, and on the other hand I wanted to maintain peace in Rogatica

15     at any cost to keep the industry and businesses going.  However, there

16     was a saber rattling on a daily basis and that's how it remained

17     throughout the war.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you went well already beyond the specific

19     question that was asked.

20             We'll conclude the hearing for today.  You've been only with us

21     for a quarter of an hour, but we'll resume tomorrow, and we would like to

22     see you back at 9.30 in the morning.  You may now follow the usher.  But

23     not until after I have instructed you that you should not speak or

24     communicate in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether

25     that is testimony you've given today or whether that's testimony that's

Page 26859

 1     still to be given.  If you understand this, you may follow the usher.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Thank you very much.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we adjourn, could I also encourage

 5     you to keep a firm hand in keeping the witness close to what you asked

 6     the witness about.

 7             We'll adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, on

 8     the 16th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day

11                           of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.