Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26860

 1                           Thursday, 16 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 6     the courtroom.

 7             But before I say any further word, Madam Registrar, could you

 8     call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is the case

10     number IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12             We are waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.

13     No preliminaries.  Nothing special.  So just another 30 seconds for

14     reflection.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I might, since we have the time, just inquire about

16     what my friend's intention with the associated exhibits are.  I noticed

17     they didn't -- they weren't addressed yesterday.

18             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender those three remaining documents since

19     two out of five are already admitted under P numbers.  So we would offer

20     three remaining documents, 1D4271, 1D4272, and Prosecution 65 ter 09827.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:  And we wouldn't have any objections.  I noticed in

23     the Karadzic case the witness was asked to explain how the map, I believe

24     that's 4272 --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  2, yeah.

Page 26861

 1             MR. TRALDI:  -- was created, and if Mr. Lukic is agreeable to do

 2     the same.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, of course.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I'd appreciate that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll proceed as suggested.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we could already sign numbers.

 8             Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 1D4271 receives number

10     D692.  Document 1D4272 receives number D693.  And document 9827 receives

11     number D694, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll deal with the matter and decide on admission

15     but do that after we have continued -- resumed the examination of the

16     witness.

17             Mr. Ujic, I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by the

18     solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning of your

19     testimony, and Mr. Lukic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

20             Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           WITNESS: MILE UJIC [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ujic.

Page 26862

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   I'm going to ask you briefly something about the police.  Did the

 3     Serbian policemen separate by themselves or was that based on some kind

 4     of agreement?

 5        A.   Let me tell you this.  Since the Serbian police was in minority,

 6     they didn't feel safe in the majority police.  So literally, at the very

 7     beginning they'd move from the station to the western part of the town.

 8     Later on during the negotiations, they were allowed access to the same

 9     building only from the other side.  So the Muslim police occupied the

10     ground floor and the Serbian police had access to the backdoor or the

11     fire escape door to the second floor and this is where they had their

12     premises.

13        Q.   Thank you.  As for the uniforms of the Serbian police, was there

14     an inscription SDS?

15        A.   Never.  They only had a coat of arms and the Serbian

16     three-coloured flag, and they also had a badge on their caps in three

17     colours as well.  There were no other insignia.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I know that you're going to give us a rather long

19     answer, but please make an effort to explain to us as briefly as possible

20     whether you were present the gathering following the -- of the

21     mobilisation of the 216th Brigade in Han Pijesak in --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic please repeat the year and

23     could the speakers please pause between questions and answers.  Thank

24     you.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 26863

 1        Q.   I am going to repeat the date and you just wait until I have

 2     finished.

 3             So the mobilisation of the 216th Brigade in Han Pijesak on the

 4     30th of June 1991, what do you know about that.

 5        A.   Well, I know that I was present there in my capacity of the

 6     president of the Executive Committee of the municipality and the acting

 7     chief for national defence.  I know that the call up papers were served.

 8     According to the planned mobilisation, couriers handed over all the

 9     mobilisation papers to the members of that brigade in that military post,

10     and we agreed that they will gather at the football pitch in order to

11     form a battalion as per establishment, and then thereafter to be escorted

12     to Han Pijesak.  The president of the municipality and myself remained

13     all the time at the sports centre awaiting the military conscripts.  In

14     the local communes where the conscripts resided, we provided for them

15     buses in order to bring them to Rogatica.

16             But something happened and that is the following:  Only a handful

17     of Muslims came from these local communes by buses to Rogatica and even

18     fewer of them boarded the buses and headed for the assembly point.  The

19     Serbs who received call-up papers, and they accounted for 30 per cent of

20     the strength of the brigade, left to get to the mobilisation point by

21     buses.

22        Q.   Can you just tell us the percentage of the Serbs?

23        A.   Around 40 per cent based on the 1991 census.

24        Q.   Because the record says 30 per cent.

25        A.   No, no, 40 per cent.

Page 26864

 1        Q.   Continue, please.

 2        A.   When the unit was formed, everybody was called who were there to

 3     get on.  However, the Muslims refused to leave that area.  They did not

 4     recognise this army.  It was not their army and they did not want to

 5     subject themselves to the command of this army.  That happened for the

 6     first time in the history of organisation up to that point.  If you

 7     receive call-up papers from the command, you have to respond.  The Serbs

 8     responded but the Muslims didn't.  They remained in Rogatica even though

 9     they constituted a majority because 60 per cent, according to the

10     consensus were Muslim inhabitants of Rogatica.  So --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just interrupt you for a second.  You said

12     when the unit was formed everybody was called who were there to get on.

13     However, the Muslim refused to leave that area.  What was the basis for

14     them to be -- for them to have to leave the area.  It's not clear to me

15     exactly what you meant by all that.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is how it was, Mr. President.

17     The brigade in Han Pijesak was meant by the reserve forces of conscripts

18     from Rogatica, Sokolac, Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, Olovo, and some of

19     Sarajevo municipalities.  The municipality of Rogatica at that time

20     provided about 1200 conscripts from Rogatica for the brigade.  Among

21     these 1200 --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But at that time, what time do you have exactly in

23     mind?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am referring to the period up

25     until the 30th of June 1991.  In all the preceding years, whenever a

Page 26865

 1     mobilisation was carried out everybody would normally respond, both

 2     communities.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please resume where you said the

 4     municipality of Rogatica at that time provided about 1200 conscripts for

 5     the brigade.  And then you said:

 6             "Among these 1200 ..."

 7             And could you resume from there?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Among the 1200, 60 per cent

 9     were Muslim soldiers and also officers, 40 per cent were Serbian military

10     personnel.  As of that day, really nothing was the same as before.  The

11     Serbs felt insecure, threatened because their numbers were low anyway and

12     to add to the pressure was the fact that the highest elite members of the

13     SDA, young people, were sent to undergo training in Croatia.

14             Since the Serbian soldiers were mobilised for the brigade --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Witness, I'm going to interrupt you because,

16     yeah, I have the feeling that we are not moving in the direction of an

17     answer to my question.

18             The Muslims refused to leave that area.  Who required them to

19     leave what area?  Who told them you should leave?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean the military drill?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said once the unit was formed everybody

22     was called and so on, however the Muslims refused to leave that area.

23     That is unclear to me what area, who told them that they had to leave, or

24     why would they leave which they refused to do?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The brigade command invited all the

Page 26866

 1     conscripts, regardless of their ethnicity, including the Muslims and

 2     Serbs, who came to that point to board the buses and head for

 3     Han Pijesak.  The SDA party came forward and said that we are not going

 4     to go.  So people left the files of soldiers and gathered on the

 5     sidelines.

 6             Some 20 or 30 Muslims did not obey the advice of the SDA.  They

 7     boarded the buses and they went to the battle-field in Han Pijesak.  Two

 8     days later the SDA organised a bus service in order to bring them back.

 9     They all returned except for two Muslims who remained in the Army of

10     Republika Srpska the whole ...

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  I still don't think that I've received an

12     answer to what I asked because is it that they had to leave the area

13     where they had gathered or was it -- it's totally unclear to me.

14             But, Mr. Lukic, perhaps you could --

15             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- with this knowledge could --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- further explore what I apparently do not

19     understand.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Where -- just a moment.  Where was the gathering point?

22        A.   The gathering point was in Rogatica.  All of the soldiers were

23     expected to come there to form a column.

24        Q.   You are speaking too fast.  Tell me what happened outside of

25     Rogatica?

Page 26867

 1        A.   The assembly point outside of Rogatica was in Han Pijesak,

 2     including the headquarters of the brigade.

 3        Q.   In the previous period, was that the assembly point where

 4     soldiers who had received these kind of call-up papers were gathering?

 5     Go on.

 6        A.   Absolutely yes.  Up until 1990, I was a member of that brigade

 7     and I had my own war assignment.  When I moved to the

 8     Executive Committee, I left the brigade and was involved in civilian

 9     power.  But this assembly mobilisation point was one and the same for all

10     the conscripts and soldiers up until June 1991.  So nothing new happened.

11     Everything was according to the usual practice.

12        Q.   In the early period when people who were called up had to leave

13     Rogatica and go to Han Pijesak once they were summoned to join the

14     brigade?

15        A.   Yes, yes.  Some stayed five days or seven days or fifteen days

16     depending on the exercise, but they reported to the brigade whenever they

17     received call-up papers and there was no problems whatsoever until the

18     30th of June, 1991, when they were also expected to appear and go to the

19     designated ...

20        Q.   And this place was where?  It was outside was Rogatica in

21     Han Pijesak; right?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   How far is Rogatica from Han Pijesak?

24        A.   Well, let's say some 62 kilometres.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In the municipal building of Rogatica, was there any

Page 26868

 1     weapons of the TO stocked and guarded?

 2        A.   I worked there and I know for sure that the municipal building

 3     doesn't have any cellar, it only has offices.  As for TO weapons, they

 4     were kept in the TO building, which has nothing to do with the municipal

 5     building.

 6        Q.   What happened to the documentation relating to mobilisation?

 7        A.   Well, I was a participant or at least an observer of all of that

 8     to a great extent.  Probably after this refusal to respond to a

 9     mobilisation and perhaps in fear of being prosecuted for refusing to

10     serve in the army, and at the same time the brigade command wanted to

11     have individual records in its own hands.  That's according to the rules.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak more slowly.

13     The interpreters cannot absolutely catch everything that he's saying.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please, whatever you say and is omitted is not recorded.  Please

16     can you do that?

17        A.   I'm aware of that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you also already not talking when others

19     are still talking.  Take a break.  Wait until Mr. Lukic has finished his

20     question, take five seconds, take a breath, and then answer the question.

21             Please proceed.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So we left off when we said that the brigade command wanted to

25     have these records in their hands, that is according to the rules and

Page 26869

 1     regulations.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Please go on from there.

 4        A.   Upon arrival of two lorries from the Han Pijesak unit, which were

 5     parked in front of the building where the TO and the police station

 6     shared, the police - particularly Muslim police officers - tried to

 7     prevent the taking of these archives.  One of the policemen who was in

 8     plain clothes saw all this commotion and he came across the park in

 9     civilian clothes, the soldier who was providing security, he had a

10     uniform and weapons and I know very well that he had an automatic rifle

11     and a knife at his belt.  I personally was watching all this from the

12     window of the municipal building.

13             This rather stocky soldier who was larger than police officer,

14     started choking him.  At one point the soldier pulled out the dagger and

15     stabbed him in the abdomen.

16        Q.   It was recorded that the soldier was bigger than the police

17     officer.

18        A.   No, it was the other way around.  His name was, I think,

19     Asim Alagic.

20             So there was chaos, there was mayhem, and quite simply the army

21     did not take the archives because SDA activists and the Muslim police did

22     not allow the archives to be taken away.  Only on some of the later

23     occasions after we had agreed on the division we were able to take over

24     the documentation.

25        Q.   What was the nationality of the secretary at the national defence

Page 26870

 1     secretariat?

 2        A.   This post was allocated to the Muslim side.  They chose it.  But

 3     they did not have a proper candidate to fill this post, so the president

 4     of the Executive Committee, by virtue of his office, can fill certain

 5     posts that they were vacant with acting officers.  That is why I, for a

 6     period, discharged the duties of the president of the Executive Committee

 7     and the secretary of the national defence, acting secretary.

 8        Q.   Starting when did you discharge both these duties?

 9        A.   Well, one can say that in fact it was from the 1st of January

10     1991.  The Muslims had three places on the Executive Committee, the Serbs

11     had two --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, slow -- slow down.  Slow down.  You are

13     much too fast.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So they had three places.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You explained that yesterday.

17        A.   Yes, but there was an agreement that either Muslim or Serb

18     personnel will fill these posts on condition that it was agreed between

19     both sides.

20        Q.   Who was the head of the TO in Rogatica?

21        A.   The head of the Territorial Defence of Rogatica was the prewar

22     chief of the TO and the commander of the TO, Mr. Mehmed Agic.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter would kindly ask Mr. Lukic to

24     switch off his microphone when not in use.  It would help us understand

25     the witness.

Page 26871

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you are invited to switch off the

 2     microphone if the witness answers the question because that makes him

 3     better understandable by the booth.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I will do so.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, when did the war start in Sarajevo?

 6     Do you know?

 7        A.   Either on the 4th or the 6th of April 1992, I believe.

 8        Q.   Did you know it at the time?

 9        A.   Yes, I knew it.  I'm sure I did.

10        Q.   How long did you manage to maintain peace in Rogatica?  Until

11     when?

12        A.   Our desire was to have an ever-lasting peace and we tried hard

13     until sometime around the 21st of May, 1992.  It was a painstaking

14     effort.

15        Q.   Before the 21st of May 1992, were there any sporadic skirmishes?

16        A.   Unfortunately not only skirmishes.  There were even murders and

17     killings among the Serbian people.  On the 6th of May a civilian,

18     Branko Baracek, was killed in Blazevici.  On the 21st of May --

19        Q.   When you mention names and dates, slow down.

20        A.   A civilian, Branko Baracek was killed in Blazevici in Borike on

21     the 6th of May.  Drazenko Mihajlovic was killed on the 21st of May in

22     Rijs Lazer on the periphery of Rogatica.  On the 23rd of May,

23     Bogdan Vukovic, an elderly shepherd, was killed in Zivaljevina.  On the

24     24th of May, again in Borike, from the direction of Zepa, two lads were

25     killed, Rackovic [phoen] and Markovic.  Therefore, Muslims started

Page 26872

 1     killing randomly here and there to instill unrest among the Serbian

 2     people so that they would feel insecure around the entire area of

 3     Rogatica municipality.

 4        Q.   Did you participate in the division of Rogatica municipality?

 5        A.   In view of my position and function, I was a participant in the

 6     negotiating teams for the division of Rogatica, and I was an active

 7     participant in the whole process until the end of the division process.

 8        Q.   What was the objective of the division?

 9        A.   The objective of the division was as follows:  If we couldn't

10     live together, we wanted to live alongside each other without war.  We

11     wanted to divide our territory so that Muslim villages would be under

12     Muslim municipal control, whereas Serb villages would be under the

13     authority of the Serbian municipality of Rogatica.  It all made sense.

14     It would mean that we would be divided without war, without bloodshed,

15     without any casualties or losses.  However, things turned out

16     differently.

17             When the division was finally agreed and when we were split,

18     expert teams drew up division maps and we took those maps to our joint

19     assembly and the joint assembly was made up by both Muslim and Serbs

20     according to the election figures.  I have to say that the joint assembly

21     unanimously adopted such a division and that map, and then the assembly

22     of the respective ethnicities confirmed that division at their respective

23     assembly sessions.

24        Q.   And now let's look at a document.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] 1D4272.  [In English] If we can have

Page 26873

 1     only one version and enlarged since... thank you.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, do you recognise this document?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.  I recognise it.  This is a map from the cadastre.  It

 4     is an overview of Rogatica, a plan of Rogatica depicting streets and

 5     neighbourhoods within the town limits.  You can see the lines red, green,

 6     dotted, and so on and so forth.

 7        Q.   The short lines, there are green and red lines.  What do green

 8     lines symbolise, what do red line symbolise, those transecting the

 9     streets?

10        A.   The green lines represent the barricades of the Muslim ethnicity.

11     There were three, four, five, six, seven, eight, even more of them in the

12     centre of town.  And as for the two short red lines, on the right-hand

13     side there is a church across the street and south of that is Zelenovica

14     and Donje Polje.  Those were Serb neighbourhoods and there were a

15     barricade there to literally prevent the entry of Muslims into that

16     Serbian neighbourhood.  The left-hand side line at the exit out of

17     Rogatica, there is a full line depicting a Serbian neighbourhood and this

18     is also a Serbian barricade.  At the same time, it was a check-point for

19     those who were leaving the town or entering it because there were

20     situations when extremists came from Visegrad and from all over the place

21     from the areas which were affected by --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the war.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic please switch off his

Page 26874

 1     microphone and could the witness please slow down.  It is impossible to

 2     interpret accurately.  Thank you very much.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you do not slow down, we'll just not

 4     receive your evidence.  You understand that?  I mean, the interpreters

 5     need to translate your words, otherwise we cannot evaluate this part of

 6     the evidence that's before us; that is, what you tell us.  Please keep

 7     that in mind.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   I know you don't find it natural to speak slowly.

11        A.   I'll try.

12        Q.   Please, again wait for the end of my question.  What about the

13     red -- long red lines on the right-hand side of the map, and then on the

14     left-hand side of the screen in the lower part of the screen?

15        A.   The full lines, this is before the war.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the

17     beginning of the answer.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   They didn't understand you.

20        A.   The red line is the separation line before the war started,

21     before the war activities started.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we talking about the red line that is almost

23     like a triangle on the right side, the north-eastern side?  Thank you.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   You heard the Judge.

Page 26875

 1        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I also ask you the following.  You apparently

 3     used the expression "separation line before the war started."  Was that a

 4     kind of an ethnic separation, that's where the Serbs lived and where the

 5     Muslims lived, because "separation line" is a term we often use when

 6     there is a war; that is, the line which keeps the armed forces apart.

 7     Could you tell us what you meant by "separation line before the war"?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You will find it in my statement.

 9     We split the municipality into two parts.  That territory within the red

10     line was the territory of the Serbian municipality of Rogatica.  That was

11     the part of town which was divided.  However, the centre of the town was

12     not as divided and it has never been divided because of the war that

13     started soon thereafter.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say that is what was agreed upon in

15     the first -- the early days of May and that the war started, well, let's

16     say around the 20th of May.  Is that -- thank you.  That clarifies the

17     matter.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I may just come in again.

20             How are we to understand on that line the solid lines and the

21     dotted lines?  What do the solid lines indicate and what do the dotted

22     lines mean?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The dotted lines are the lines of

24     separation after the 22nd of May 1992.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think what we do not have on our screen is the

Page 26876

 1     second page in English which gives the legend for the lines, green short

 2     lines, Muslim roadblocks; red short lines, Serbian roadblocks; and the

 3     lower two, separation before 22 of May; and the lowest, that is the

 4     double-line, separation line, after the 22nd of May.  That's what the

 5     legend tells us.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But I'm interested to know what the dotted line

 7     on the right side of the screen means.  I think there is no explanation

 8     in the legend, inside of the triangle with the solid line.  Could you

 9     explain that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  Gladly.  The area

11     within the dotted line, there is a solid line as a barricade of the

12     Serbian people.  In that part within the dotted line there is a Serbian

13     Orthodox church and a -- all the houses around the church were Serbian,

14     all to the last.

15             As you go on, there are some mixed households but the area is

16     predominantly inhabited by the Serbian population.  The area around the

17     Serbian Orthodox church was predominantly, if not 100 per cent, inhabited

18     by the Serbs living in Serbian houses.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Witness, at page 16, lines 18 and 19, in

20     response to my question, you said:

21             "The dotted lines are the lines of separation after the 22nd of

22     May 1992."

23             Do you remember saying that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's correct.  That's what you wanted to say?

Page 26877

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes.  Yes.  Yes.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me ask you a question:  The big triangle,

 3     you've said it was the separation line before the war, and as I

 4     understood you that whole big triangle inside the big red circle was

 5     Serb; is that not so?  I see you are nodding.  So that the record can

 6     have your answer, can you say it verbally, please?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Precisely so.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Then, now when you say the dotted line inside the

 9     circle was the separation line after the 22nd of May, do I understand --

10     are we still to understand that inside the triangle there was a side

11     where the BiH Army was and there was a side where the Serb army was

12     inside this big red triangle, those parts -- those armies being separated

13     by this dotted line?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, at that time we still had

15     Territorial Defence forces.  We had a Muslim Territorial Defence and also

16     a Serb Territorial Defence.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now I understand that.  Whether they were

18     Territorial Defence or whatever they were, are we to understand that

19     inside an area that is enclosed as an exclusively Serb area, Muslims were

20     in there fighting against Serbs and separated by this broken line?  Is

21     that how we are to understand this map?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, precisely.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite the parties to see whether they agree

25     on what it actually means?  Because dotted lines, fine.  But we have

Page 26878

 1     dotted lines single, we have dotted lines together with fixed lines, we

 2     have them in red, we have them elsewhere.  We have apparently periods

 3     where there is no real combat, although murders were committed.  It's

 4     still pretty unclear to me, but if the parties would have a common

 5     understanding on what this map tells us, then I would highly appreciate

 6     if they would share their views with the Bench.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Ujic, let me just ask you this.  On the left-hand side of the

10     screen in its bottom part, there is a solid line and a dotted line.  On

11     the left-hand side of that line --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Left, north, west, could we seek the assistance of

13     who -- someone who can move a pointer over this picture visible both for

14     the witness and for the Chamber so that when we are talking about lines

15     that we can see on our screen and verify whether we are talking about the

16     same lines yes or no.  And I might even have a few questions to further

17     explore the matter.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Then can we use the assistance of the usher.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what I'm --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then perhaps marking --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Marking, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- would be better and then make it a new exhibit.

24             Witness, you will be invited to make some markings, but please

25     wait until you have received clear instructions what to mark and how to

Page 26879

 1     mark it.  So wait before doing anything.

 2             Could you draw a line or lines which would depict the division of

 3     territory before the 22nd of May 1992.  So before the war really started.

 4     Could you draw one or more lines and then indicate clearly -- but I'll

 5     give you further instructions.  Could you tell us what were the

 6     separation lines before the 22nd of May and could you draw them, mark

 7     them on the screen?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  This now looks more or less as a -- as an

10     isle within the whole of that territory, a secluded area.  Whose

11     territory was that?  Was that Serb?  Was that Muslim?  Could you tell us?

12     First tell us before you start marking.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both Muslims were -- and Serbs were

14     there, more Muslims than the Serbs.  This is where the Serbian side

15     was --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you not to make any marking.

17             Could the usher --

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Okay.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- assist in erasing the last marking.  Okay.

20             Now what I see is a kind of a triangle.  Was that a mixed area?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please put the letter M in the middle of

23     the mixed area.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

Page 26880

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you make it M plus S because otherwise the

 3     word M might be misunderstood.  So could you make that M plus S, standing

 4     for Muslims and Serbs.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there we are.

 7             Now, could you draw any other separation line and take it one by

 8     one, also before the 22nd of May?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Now you have drawn a line.  Could you first

11     answer my question.  To the left of that line, who were living there?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs.  This is the Serbian

13     neighbourhood called Karanfil.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you add an S to that area.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Now what now remains is first what seems

17     to be the centre of town more or less.  Who were living there?  Was that

18     undivided?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That part of the town was not

20     divided.  As I said, only where there was a clear majority was subject to

21     division.  However, within the town itself there were no divisions and it

22     was actually the war that prevented the division of the centre of the

23     town and the population was of mixed compositions, Muslims, Croats, and

24     Serbs.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that whatever remains now on the map,

Page 26881

 1     on which looks as the centre of this map, that that was undivided?  Or

 2     were there still smaller divisions within that territory?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no minor divisions.

 4     Whatever is free of any lines was at the time under the control of the

 5     Muslim forces or the Muslim authorities.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But although under their control, undivided as far

 7     as where Serbs lived and where Muslims lived.  Is that well understood?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely so.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then put a letter U in the centre of the

10     area you described?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, earlier you started to make some marking at the

13     right top part of the map.  Could you first tell us what you intended to

14     tell us about that area?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will.  To the right of this line

16     in the left corner of the screen, the neighbourhoods were Serbian.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no -- let me -- let me -- you started marking

18     which was this erased not at the left but at the right top part of the

19     map.  So we see more or less three parallel what seems to be roads going

20     to the right top of this map.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, first of all, that area, who

23     lived there and under whose control was it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was an area mostly populated by

25     Serbs and this part or territory was allocated to the Serb even though

Page 26882

 1     there were a few Muslim households.  However the roads that lead to

 2     Pasic Kula, and to Kozici, and further afield where the barricades were,

 3     this is the area where the Muslim villages were.  However, you cannot see

 4     it on this map because this map depicts only the urban part of the town

 5     not rural parts of the town.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And if I understand you well that urban part

 7     of town was mainly populated by Serbs but there were some Muslims living

 8     there as well?  Is that well understood?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The ratio in the town itself

10     was, let's say, 60 per cent, so that the town itself reflected the

11     census; 60 per cent of Muslims and 40 per cent of Serbs.  So the ratio

12     within the town itself was almost the same.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm exclusively talking about the area in the very

14     right upper part of this map.  I think you said it was allocated to Serbs

15     even though there were a few Muslim households.  Is that true?  Could you

16     then put in that area a large S and a very small M?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, in that same answer where you -- where the

20     Judge was asking you about, you further say:

21             "However, the roads that lead to ..."

22             And then we don't know that.

23             "... and then further afield where the barricades were, this is

24     the area where the Muslim villages were."

25             Now, are you -- I'm not quite sure this place that you call

Page 26883

 1     "Serbian," is it where the Muslim villages were or are they further

 2     afield?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, this road in the upper

 4     right corner, where you see this green barricade, and further on it leads

 5     to Muslim villages, Zlatni Do and Pasic Kula.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, yes, I'm looking at the clock.  Would

 8     this be your exhibit?  You introduced the map and I think with these

 9     clarifications, it would --

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- still appropriately be a Defence exhibit.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, we would propose this one as our exhibit.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Madam Registrar, the number for -- the D number for this map now

15     marked by the witness would be?

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It was already D693.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but --

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah but the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The marked version will be --

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The marked version will be another have exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Another exhibit.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, D693 as marked by the witness

23     receives number D695, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D695 is admitted into evidence.

25             And perhaps this is the right moment because earlier I have not

Page 26884

 1     expressed the Chamber's decision on admission for D692, D693, and D694.

 2     There were no objections.  They are now admitted into evidence.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And then D695.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  695 was already admitted into evidence.

 5             The reason why I delayed it, because you said if the map is

 6     explained, and I think it's now thoroughly explained, then you would have

 7     no objections.  That's the reason why I waited to express our decision

 8     until this very moment.

 9             Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.  How much more time would

10     you need?

11             MR. LUKIC:  I have some questions left I really have to cover.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But those questions would be quickly answered since

14     it would be --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, well.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I don't want to ask for too much of an explanation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The interpreters hope that they will not be too

18     quickly answered.

19             How much time would you need approximately?  If you say it's five

20     minutes we might consider, if Mr. Mladic would be agreeable to that, we

21     would --

22             MR. LUKIC:  It's more than five minutes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  It's more than five minutes.

24             And could I also encourage you to present organised evidence

25     and -- in such a way that the Chamber, which may be a bit slow of

Page 26885

 1     understanding, but that we at least understand what is presented before

 2     us.

 3             We take a break, Witness.  You may follow the usher.  We would

 4     like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If I would say our apologies for the late start, it

10     would be unfair to my colleagues.  My apologies for the late start.

11             Mr. Lukic, could I invite you to do a similar exercise but now

12     for the lines after 22 of May, perhaps in a new map so that we know

13     exactly what it is all about?  Perhaps take the same unmarked map now and

14     then draw the lines as they existed on from the 22nd of May.  And I know

15     that it takes some time to get the right lines on the map.

16             MR. LUKIC:  So I'm hoping for extension of time, then.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, I ...

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You can always try.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There is one difference, Mr. Lukic.  I couldn't have

20     done it before court.  But we'll be a bit more generous than we usually

21     are.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             MR. LUKIC:  We'll need the help of the usher again.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could the usher assist the witness again in

25     marking.

Page 26886

 1             Mr. Ujic, please continue at the speed of speech you demonstrated

 2     in the last portion of the previous session.  Mr. Lukic will now

 3     continue.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best, Your Honours, to

 7     speak more slowly, but believe me I can't help it.  I am a fast talker.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Ujic, this map that we have in front of us, can you please

10     indicate the positions of the Muslim and Croat forces -- or rather, I'm

11     sorry, Muslim and Serb forces as well as Muslims and Croats in the town

12     after the 22nd of May 1992?

13        A.   Well, I'll try.  May I mark them on the map?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   So this part of town was held by the Muslim forces because the

16     Serbs had mainly withdrawn from that part of town to the Serbian

17     neighbourhoods to the right and left, and the central part remained under

18     the authority or supervision of the Muslim forces.  The Serb forces were

19     here in this part and down here in this part.  The 5th Pljesevica, and

20     this was with some elements of forces, was outside of the town, and

21     further on eastwardly towards Borike where the Serbian TO was deployed.

22        Q.   Can you please put the letter M in the middle of this circle and

23     put the letter S in the areas that you marked as Serbian.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Now what was happening with this red triangle?

Page 26887

 1        A.   The red triangle is -- was the place -- or rather the general

 2     area was where the war started because there was the body of

 3     Drazenko Mihajlovic and the dispute arose because they refused to hand

 4     over the body.  Then a TO unit on the 22 of May left Borike and took over

 5     this part of the territory.  And then in the course of war operations

 6     where there was some resistance, so in the area marked M plus S, which

 7     made use -- also this part of town a military target and it was

 8     eventually occupied which altered the situation in the field, combat

 9     situation.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the help of the usher to erase this M

11     plus S because it was previous situation.  So just erase MS.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] So after the 22nd, was this area also in the

13     Serbian hands?

14        A.   Well, yes, it was taken over by the Serbs.

15        Q.   Can you please mark it with the S.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, is this sufficient?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's -- of course, we still have now one

20     circle without any marking and of course for those reading the transcript

21     later on.

22             Do I understand, Witness, that the Serbs took over also the area

23     at the top which is at this moment without any further marking and where

24     you have made an arrow downwards?

25             Then I would suggest, because that's what I now understand, is

Page 26888

 1     that we erase that circle and the arrow and that we put a line around

 2     what used to be M plus S and now has become S.

 3             Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Just erase that circle and arrow -- [Microphone not

 5     activated].

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Just erase that circle and arrow at the top part of

 8     the screen, as Judge Orie suggested.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And could -- could -- Mr. Lukic, could you

10     instruct the witness to make a circle or draw a line which area was now

11     finally around where the S is was under Serb control?

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Ujic, can you please, the S which is outside the circle, can

14     you just place a circle around it to indicate that it was controlled by

15     the Serb?  Because the whole triangle is red.  Or even wider than that?

16        A.   This whole triangle, I said that where -- that is where the body

17     of the Drazenko Mihajlovic was.  So in order for us to pull out his body,

18     we had to occupy this area M plus S which was one of the strongholds.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking for an explanation as why you did it,

20     but could you please around that S, the triangle, indicate with a circle

21     or triangle, whatever way, which area there was now newly controlled by

22     the Serbs?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Lukic --

Page 26889

 1             MR. LUKIC:  We would offer this into the evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document D693 as marked by the witness received

 5     number D696, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  D696, that's the second version -- second

 7     marked version of D693 is admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Ujic, was there any organised defence in Rogatica conducted

10     by Muslims?

11        A.   Absolutely yes.  There was fierce defence.

12        Q.   Thank you.  How long did the situation persist?  I'm referring to

13     the situation depicted on the last map.  When did the new fighting start?

14        A.   Sometime on the 19th of June 1992, low intensity skirmishes

15     started and lasted until the 22nd of July 1992.  Then we suppressed the

16     Muslims because they had torched Serbian buildings, houses, apartments,

17     and business premises.  We pushed them from the central part denoted by

18     letter M on the map, and that's when the aggression ended.  The

19     extremists were separated, the civilians were driven out, and the war

20     stopped there and then.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  They were not driven

22     out, they were divided.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Lukic, please.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 26890

 1        Q.   Did Serbian units have flamethrowers?

 2        A.   They had long been abandoned in the JNA, so there was no grounds

 3     for any member of the Serbian forces or any unit of the Serbian forces to

 4     have one because they hadn't -- not even existed in the JNA.

 5        Q.   Was the Uzice Corps ever active in Rogatica?

 6        A.   As far as I know, and I know a lot, the Uzice Corps never set

 7     foot on the territory of Rogatica.

 8        Q.   Did you see any burnt and charred bodies around Rogatica during

 9     the conflict and after the conflict?

10        A.   I can't see something that didn't exist.  They simply did not

11     exist.  If they had been there I would have seen them, I suppose.  But I

12     really never did.

13        Q.   In late August 1992, did you see many decomposing bodies in

14     Rogatica?

15        A.   Charred, decomposed?  I repeat, never ever did I see them.  I

16     didn't see them in June, July, or August, I didn't see a single body, let

17     alone many bodies, either charred or burnt or decomposing.  There were

18     none.  Or at least I'm not aware of those.  In any case, I didn't see

19     any.  And I was there all the time.

20        Q.   And now something about the departure of civilians from Rogatica.

21     After the conflict, how did people leave Rogatica?  I'm referring to

22     civilians.  What was the procedure in place?

23        A.   To -- for the Trial Chamber to understand the situation better, I

24     have to say a few words.  From the beginning of the negotiations about

25     the division into two municipalities, many Serb and Muslim families were

Page 26891

 1     afraid of what the future might bring.  Therefore, both went wherever

 2     they could.  The Muslim side as a rule took regular buses and got into

 3     their cars.  Even before the war, a large group went to Sarajevo because

 4     most of them had proprieties in Sarajevo.  That's where they left with

 5     their families.  Another large group left in the direction of Gorazde,

 6     and the third group withdrew towards Zepa because they hailed from Zepa

 7     and they lived in Rogatica.  That means that a lot of Muslims had left

 8     town even before the first round was fired.

 9             A large number of Serb families were also moving to the Serbian

10     neighbourhoods in the south and west of the town or the villages on the

11     periphery of the town.  A smaller part of families went to Serbia if they

12     had relatives there.  They spent a few months there and then they

13     returned to Rogatica.  What I'm saying is that there was no forcible

14     resettlement, really.  No.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Mr. Lukic.  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   What about collection centres in Rogatica?  Did they exist for

19     civilians?

20        A.   Yes, yes.  I already wrote about that.  It was like a safe house.

21     Why did I call it a safe house?  Because we wanted to separate civilians

22     from those carrying arms.  We did not want collateral damage.  That's why

23     we separated civilians to the territory under the control of the Serbian

24     army and that was the secondary school Veljko Vlahovic.  Another small

25     number were received for a couple of days in the circle surrounded by the

Page 26892

 1     dotted red line surrounded -- encircling the Orthodox church.

 2        Q.   Don't mark anything.

 3        A.   I'm not marking anything.  I'm just showing you things.  This was

 4     not a collection centre but a reception centre for the population from

 5     the area marked by a large S.  We wanted to accommodate them there

 6     because the school was not fit for the purpose.  The civilians could have

 7     been shot from either one side or the other side, so we would keep them

 8     here for a couple of days and then as soon as conditions were in place

 9     for their transfer they would be moved to the secondary school.

10        Q.   And the facility where they stayed for a couple of days, what

11     facility was that?

12        A.   It was the church hall or the church house in Rogatica.  They

13     were received there, and when there were 10 or 15 of them they would be

14     transferred to the secondary school.  If they had been taken to the

15     school one by one, they would have been exposed to a greater danger.

16     That's why we waited for groups of 10 to 15 to be formed.  I'll do my

17     best, thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put at this moment one question to the

19     witness.

20             You said, Mr. Ujic, that you gave a reason why you separated

21     civilians to the territory under the control of the Serbian army and that

22     was the secondary school Veljko Vlahovic.  What ethnicity did these

23     civilians belong to?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, all those who did not

25     want to fight because they were not armed, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.

Page 26893

 1     It was not just Muslims.  They were all civilians who had to be protected

 2     from dieing.  They were accommodated in that place which was a safe house

 3     for them where they could save themselves.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I only asked for their ethnicity.

 5             Can you give me a percentage?  You said Muslims, Croats, and

 6     Serbs.  Can you give percentages?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't talk percentages.  I told

 8     you that many had abandoned -- had left the town even before the first

 9     round was fire.  In any case there were more Muslims because they were --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter didn't understand the last

11     word.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were also Serbs, there were

13     also Croats.  I didn't count heads.  I really don't know.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many approximately for each group?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say.  I did come to the

16     school on one occasion and I saw my neighbours and my friends and --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- certainly there were a lot more

19     Muslims, but I wasn't there when different groups were brought in, so I

20     can't answer your question.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  The area around the Veljko Vlahovic school or around

24     Rasadnik, were they mined?

25        A.   If they had been I would have known.  I should have known.

Page 26894

 1     However, the school is in the very centre of town, so I really say

 2     categorically that it had never occurred to anybody to plant mines around

 3     the school.  I claim categorically there were no mines planted either

 4     around the school or the Rasadnik.  We did not have them.  Even if we had

 5     wanted to plant them, we did not have them at our disposal.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the short answer would have been --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to my knowledge, no.  That's all.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The only thing that wasn't recorded was that the school was in

12     the territory controlled under the Serbs.

13        A.   Yes.  The school was in the territory controlled by the Serbs

14     then and now, still is.

15        Q.   What food was given to the people who were accommodated in the

16     Veljko Vlahovic school?  Do you know that?

17        A.   Yes, I have personal knowledge of that.  I saw that the food came

18     from the same place for the troops on the line, for the refugees in

19     Rogatica and for those who were in the Veljko Vlahovic school and later

20     on in Rasadnik.  That means that they received three meals a day and the

21     same meals were served to all the three categories of the population.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think that's already in the statement,

23     isn't it?  Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I'll move on.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you know what was the attitude of Muslim

Page 26895

 1     fighters to the people who remained living in Muslim villages or in

 2     Rogatica, those who were of Muslim ethnicity?

 3        A.   Yes, I know about that.  Muslim fighters considered those people

 4     traitors because they had stayed with Chetniks.  They were their

 5     relatives' neighbours.  They held it against them for having stayed in

 6     the Serb-controlled territory.  There were even attempts by Muslims to

 7     murder or to kill their fellow nationals for having stayed in those

 8     villages.

 9        Q.   Did the entire villages remain populated by the Muslim population

10     after the conflict broke out and then until the end of the war?

11        A.   I claim with full responsibility that that was the case, and I'm

12     talking about Satorovici, Okruglo, Tmorni Do, and Osovo.

13        Q.   Nothing was recorded.  Slowly one name after the next.

14        A.   The villages are Satorovici, Okruglo, Okruglo.  Now it has been

15     recorded twice.  Tmorni Do.

16        Q.   Repeat the last name.

17        A.   Tmorni Do.  And finally the village of Osovo.  And another one,

18     Burati.

19        Q.   What happened to the inhabitants of those villages who had handed

20     over weapons and did not want to seek protection in those collection

21     centres?

22        A.   All those who had handed over were weapons and didn't want to go

23     to collection centres, who wanted to stay in their houses, did stay

24     there.  For example, in Satorovic there was a retired JNA

25     General Asim Hodzic with his wife.  He stayed there with his fellow

Page 26896

 1     villagers.  He rallied them and he acted as their advisors -- advisor as

 2     to what to do.  He advised them to respect the authorities of the

 3     territory where they lived.  They all received food from the Crisis Staff

 4     and they received the same quantity per capita as a person of Serb

 5     ethnicity.  So a Muslim received as much oil, wheat, flour, coffee,

 6     detergent as a Serb.

 7        Q.   And now just briefly, I would like to ask you something about the

 8     destruction of religious facilities in Rogatica.  Was a mosque destroyed

 9     in Rogatica in June?

10        A.   I don't know.  As you look at the plan, you will see the

11     territory controlled by Muslims.  The two mosques were there.  I heard

12     that the mosque had been destroyed.  And later, a couple of days later,

13     there was an explosion, an anti-tank mine had been planted under the

14     ruins of the mosque and our APC, which was driving from north to south,

15     hit the mine, a soldier was killed, he was driving the APC, and the other

16     was wounded, seriously wounded.  I only know that from that mosque --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question asked was whether a mosque was

18     destroyed.  You are giving us long explanations as to who may have done

19     it or may not have done it.  Although the -- you started your answer by

20     "I don't know."  Was there a mosque destroyed?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I don't know the date

22     when that happened, but I know that a mosque had been destroyed.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  That's what happens if you put a

24     composite question, Mr. Lukic.

25             So you know a mosque was destroyed.  You don't know whether it

Page 26897

 1     happened in June.  Please proceed.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is it that you don't know the date or you don't know at all?

 4        A.   I don't know the exact date, but I am sure it was in June.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the simple answer would have been:  Yes.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Just for the record, at the time when the mosque

 9     was destroyed was that part of town under Serb control?

10        A.   No, no, they were not even close.  And you can see that in the

11     map.

12        Q.   What happened with the synagogue?

13        A.   Yes.  When we entered the town on the 23rd of July and we pushed

14     the Muslims from the central circle M, this is where the synagogue was,

15     we found the synagogue razed to the ground and burned.  That was the only

16     Jewish religious building.  Prior to that it was a cultural centre where

17     exhibitions were held but now it was demolished and burned.

18        Q.   What about the Catholic church?  Has it remained until the end of

19     war?

20        A.   The Catholic church?  Yes.  It's here in the Serb controlled

21     territory and it remained totally intact.  There is not even a

22     bullet-hole in it.  It is still there standing as it had been standing

23     before and during the war.

24        Q.   Now something completely different.  Do you know when

25     Tomo Batinic was killed?

Page 26898

 1        A.   Yes.  He was the president of the municipality.  I think that

 2     that happened sometime in November 1992.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now I have two or three questions and then we'll

 4     round it up.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because you asked for an hour, you asked for

 6     additional time for my invitation to have some additional markings.  I

 7     said I would be generous.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I need two more minutes or one more minute.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's fine because you -- all together you

10     took already quite a bit more.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Mr. Ujic, have you ever been informed about a plan to kill

14     one-third of Muslims in Rogatica, to convert one-third into Christianity,

15     and one-third to be expelled?

16        A.   I can say with full responsibility before this Court that such a

17     plan never existed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've never heard of it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the last statement, that you never heard of it,

21     is fully acceptable.  That it did not exist would suggest that you could

22     look into the minds of everyone, which of course you cannot.  So we do

23     understand that you never heard of such a plan.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 26899

 1        Q.   Did you yourself carry out something like that on the ground?

 2        A.   No, definitely not.

 3        Q.   Have you ever seen anyone else doing that during the war in

 4     Rogatica on the ground?

 5        A.   No, I didn't see anything like that and I don't know.

 6        Q.   Mr. Ujic, I have no further questions for you.  Thank you for

 7     answering my questions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Before you'll be cross-examined by the Prosecution, I have one

10     clarifying question.  You marked those maps.  Did I understand you well

11     that the Muslim control over the centre of the town, as you marked it,

12     that that lasted until, well, let's say, 23rd of July I think you said,

13     and that after that Serbs had taken over control also over the centre of

14     town?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.  Precisely so.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you described in some detail about Serbs being

17     killed early May, I think the last incident you mentioned was the 24th,

18     you gave names, et cetera.  During that period of time, were only some

19     Serbs murdered or were there also killings committed against Muslims?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, believe me, as much as I

21     would like to tell the truth I knew about those Serb victims because that

22     was in our territory.  As for the losses in the Muslim territory, that's

23     something that I wasn't able to see; therefore, I wouldn't like to say

24     anything.  Even if there was a single victim, it's a victim.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's a clear answer.

Page 26900

 1             My last question would be about the Vlahovic secondary school.

 2     You emphasized very much that people were taken there in order to protect

 3     them against any violence.  My first question is did you hear of anyone

 4     being taken there not on his own free will but because he was forced to

 5     go to that school?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know about somebody

 7     being forced, but I remember one specific situation.  Once we decided --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm just asking you whether you are aware of

 9     anyone, and let's limit ourselves to Muslims, that had gone to that

10     school not of their own free will but because they were compelled to go

11     there?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me explain.  Anyone who didn't

13     want to leave, just like the people from Satorovici village, stayed

14     behind because there were no war operations.  Only the Muslims from the

15     town --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But why not answer my question directly.  Are you

17     aware of anyone who didn't go there of his own free will but was

18     compelled by others to go there?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here's my answer.  If they were

20     called through the megaphone for civilians to be separated, that would

21     maybe be a kind of force.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand what the

23     witness said.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Witness, could you please resume from where you

25     said:  "... that may be a kind of force ..." Could you resume from there?

Page 26901

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said if they were called on a

 2     megaphone by the then president of the TO to be separated from people

 3     under arms and to go to the secondary school, if you consider that force,

 4     then that's how it happened.  Nobody --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- else came under duress.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You say if they were called on a megaphone,

 8     did it happen that people were called on a megaphone to go to the

 9     secondary school?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to explain this further.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no.  Witness, just tell me whether people were

12     called through a megaphone to go to the Vlahovic secondary school?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but only once when the centre

14     of town was at stake it was necessary to separate the civilians.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether it was a necessity or not is another

16     matter.  So therefore people were called and told that they had to go to

17     the Vlahovic school; is that well understood?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Whoever wanted to go.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What did they say?  If you want to go to the school,

20     please do so, or did they say you have to go to the school?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were invited in order to save

22     their lives to go to the school because there was an impending war

23     operation in the town.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So you would say that if they wouldn't go to the

25     school that their life was at stake?

Page 26902

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely yes.  Absolutely.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, my --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the supposition.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You emphasized very much how people were going

 5     there to be protected.  Was that protection effective in that everyone

 6     could later on leave the school sound and safe and go to wherever they

 7     wanted to go?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, Your Honours,

 9     when a certain number would assemble, they had families elsewhere and

10     they wanted to reunite with their families.  I know very well that they

11     were issued papers.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  That's the second part of my

13     question, whether they could go wherever they wanted to go.  But was

14     everyone sound and safe when leaving the school?  Did everyone survive?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand what you mean.  I

16     heard, even though the intention was for everyone who goes to the school

17     that their lives would be guaranteed; however, I heard that some 25

18     people were to be transferred from the school to Rasadnik and they ended

19     the way they ended.  I find it appalling, I don't know what kind of

20     pervert and insane person can do that.  I still don't understand it.

21     However, those who survived at the school, if they said that they would

22     like to travel, we gave them paper to list members of their families, we

23     provided police escort for them as far as the separation line, and then

24     we would hand them over safe and sound.  But I know that according to the

25     list some wanted to go to Sarajevo, Tuzla, Zenica, Sarajevo, Skopje, or

Page 26903

 1     east or western European countries.  So within the limitations that we

 2     had we accommodated their request and they reunited with their families

 3     safely.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Do you have any -- were you

 5     present when these persons were given a free choice where they would wish

 6     to go?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't.  But I was told that

 8     that was how it was done by the president of the municipality.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that answer.

10             Now finally you said they ended as they ended and you couldn't

11     understand how an any sane person could apparently do -- do I take that

12     as a reference to them being killed?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any personal knowledge about how

15     they were killed?  Under what circumstances?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can tell you what I know.

17     At the time I was at the head of --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked for personal knowledge.  Let that be clear.

19     But please continue.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no personal knowledge, but I

21     have intelligence report that arrived quite soon after the event.  I

22     don't know whether it was on the same day or the next day.  I received

23     information that something like that had happened.  I couldn't believe

24     that even then, just as I cannot believe it to this date.  Even though I

25     was a defence witness for this executioner in the BH court, I still

Page 26904

 1     cannot believe that such a mind, disturbed mind, can do something like

 2     that without being given any order to that effect, an individual.  I

 3     found it totally incomprehensible and today I find it totally illogical.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that you concluded that the person

 5     who committed killings must have acted under orders?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That should have been the case, but

 7     apparently this person did not act in that manner because I can claim

 8     with full responsibility that nobody issued this kind of order ever.  I

 9     can confirm that categorically.  He did it on his own initiative.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it that you tell us that you are not

11     aware of anyone who would have given such an order.  Is that a right

12     understanding of your claim?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely so.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Traldi.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is it so that these people were killed by one

17     individual?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there on the spot, but

19     according to the judgement and the trial, probably the prosecutors office

20     investigated the whole case and found out who the perpetrator was.

21     That's why he was put on trial.  And everybody is convinced through the

22     evidence and documents in the case filed that he was the culprit.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, I asked the question because of the answer

24     that you gave at page 44, lines 14 to 22.  Right through that you talk of

25     individual.

Page 26905

 1             "I couldn't believe that even then, just as I cannot believe it

 2     now to date, even though I was a defence witness for this executioner in

 3     the BH court, I still cannot without being given any order to that effect

 4     an individual ..."

 5             I don't know what that sentence is.  But you mentioned

 6     "individual," you mentioned "executioner."  That's why I asked.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, just to be sure, are you telling us that

 8     there was only one person who committed the killing and that he was not

 9     joined by others and that others participated in the -- in what happened,

10     that he was one single individual?  Or don't you know?  If you don't

11     know, then tell us as well.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really wish, and I

13     am fully aware of the declaration that I made to tell you the truth, I

14     cannot say with full responsibility whether he had any accomplices or

15     not.  But according to the judgement, I understand that he was the man.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's an answer to the question.

17             Mr. Traldi.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.

21     Mr. Traldi you'll find him to your right.  You're looking at him already.

22     He speaks almost as slow as Mr. Lukic does, so would you please follow

23     his example.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I will endeavour uncharacteristically, I'm afraid,

25     to set a good example.

Page 26906

 1        Q.   Sir, I have a couple of very brief questions to follow-up on the

 2     questions the Chamber just asked you.  First, you testified that people

 3     were called on a megaphone to go to the Vlahovic school by the commander

 4     of the Territorial Defence at the time.  My question is simply that man

 5     was Rajko Kusic; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Second, how many times were you at the school yourself?

 8        A.   I went there to the school only once.  When a large group of

 9     people or residents were called on a megaphone in the square where I

10     lived, and there were also some neighbours of mine.  I wanted to go and

11     see those people.  I took cigarettes, gave them.  I spoke to them kindly.

12     I told them, "Don't worry, once this is over you will be back in your

13     homes and in your work-place and you will continue as you did before the

14     war."  But it seems that something happened and it seems that not all of

15     them were able to return.  But at the time when I went, there were no

16     complaints about the clothing, the food, et cetera.  What was happening

17     later on, I don't know.  There were some rumours, there were some foolish

18     things that would be done, and somebody said, "Don't interfere with this

19     because it seems that a human life is cheaper than a piece of food."

20        Q.   We'll come to that, sir.  For the moment I'd just asked you how

21     many times you were at the school and I'd ask you to, just so we can move

22     through this most efficiently, to just focus on the question, please.  So

23     with that I'd ask you to just refer a few of your positions.

24        A.   Very well.

25        Q.   In 1991, you were named the minister of industry in the SAO

Page 26907

 1     Romanija; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, I was appointed minister of industry in the SAO Romanija.

 3     Let me just say that it convened only once.  That was a constitutive

 4     meeting and it never met again.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, just answer the question.

 6             There seems to be a sigh.  There must be something wrong at this

 7     moment because we hear the personal conversation within the booth rather

 8     than ...

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies, but it's the button.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I thought it would be.

11             Witness, could you please answer the question and leave it to

12     that.  You were appointed or named minister of industry isn't the SAO

13     Krajina.  The simple answer is yes -- Romanija.  Next question.

14             So would you please strictly limit yourself --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   You also served as a member of the Rogatica Crisis Staff; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In May and June 1992, the Crisis Staff was headquartered in the

20     Sladara malt-factory; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Approximately how often, once a day, once a week, several times a

23     week, would you be present at the Sladara malt-factory at that time?  And

24     if you're not sure, that's fine.

25        A.   Well, maybe I went there once a week.  Not more than that during

Page 26908

 1     a week.

 2        Q.   You also served as a secretary of the secretariat for national

 3     defence in Rogatica; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Rogatica had a multiethnic municipal assembly elected at the

 6     multi-party elections in 1990; right?  And I see you're nodding but you

 7     have to articulate your answer.

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, that was a multiparty, multinational assembly.

 9        Q.   It also had a Serb assembly established in December 1991; right?

10        A.   It was formed as a result of the division of the municipal

11     territory and the Muslim authority and the Serbian.

12        Q.   Well, actually --

13        A.   That is when the assembly was established.

14        Q.   -- sir, as a matter of chronology, the agreement on dividing the

15     territory was entered into on the 2nd of May 1992; right?

16        A.   Yes, that is when this decision was adopted at the joint

17     assembly.

18        Q.   And, in fact, the Serb assembly was established in December 1991;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you served as a member of both assemblies; correct?

22        A.   I was a president of Executive Committee during the tenure of the

23     first assembly.  I wasn't a deputy.  However, I was a deputy in the

24     Serbian assembly and by replacing someone I became a deputy in the

25     assembly of the Serbian people.

Page 26909

 1        Q.   And you were also a member of the SDS Municipal Board in

 2     Rogatica; correct?

 3        A.   Yes, I was.

 4        Q.   Now, in late March 1992 you, Sveto Veselinovic, and

 5     Tomislav Batinic resigned from the Municipal Board; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, I was the president of the Executive Committee, Batinic

 7     was --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat --

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  -- slowly.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the interpreters could not catch your words.

13     That's how it is.

14             You resigned in late March 1992 together with Veselinovic and

15     Batinic; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the question.  That was the question.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Could the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is your answer?

20             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Mr. President.

21             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31325.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, since you are now --

23             MR. TRALDI:  I --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- entering the domain of documents, it's also about

25     time for a break.  If you would say it would be better to start with the

Page 26910

 1     documents after the break, having introduced the positions of the witness

 2     until now, then we would follow that suggestion.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I'll follow your suggestion to suggest it,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you so much.

 6             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes and we would like to

 7     see you back after that.  You may follow the usher.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past midday.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ujic, Mr. Traldi will now continue his

14     cross-examination.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Now, sir, before the break you testified that you,

17     Mr. Veselinovic, and Mr. Batinic had resigned your positions in the

18     Rogatica SDS.  What we see now on the screen is the letter you sent to

19     Dr. Karadzic conveying your resignation; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And you were informing President Karadzic because the structure

22     of the SDS was that the Municipal Board reported up to the Main Board;

23     correct?  And to him as the president of the SDS.

24        A.   Yes, precisely.

25        Q.   Now, I'm interested in a couple of specific points in this

Page 26911

 1     letter.  First, in the first paragraph we read:

 2             "In the new situation on the territory of the Rogatica

 3     Municipality, the Crisis Staff of the SDS Municipal Board Rogatica is not

 4     able to carry out its decisions due to a group of armed Serbs, headed by

 5     a member of the Main Board SDS BiH Rajko Kusic, who was ruthlessly

 6     rushing with threats to attack into the town, in case that municipality

 7     and the Public Security Station are not unconditionally divided into

 8     Serbian and Muslim parts within two hours' time."

 9             So my question about that paragraph is simply:  What you wrote

10     here is correct, Mr. Kusic was making threats like that in late March

11     1992; correct?

12        A.   Yes, precisely.

13        Q.   Now the next paragraph begins:

14             "The Crisis Staff, in compliance with your instructions, believes

15     that the factual division on the ground should be and is already there,

16     however the official division must accompanied by laws issued by relevant

17     Serbian Ministries ..."

18             And you conclude that paragraph saving:

19             "We believe it is dangerous to be the originator of the war

20     situation when the Serbian people are not sufficiently prepared and

21     provided."

22             Now, I have three questions about this paragraph.  First, when

23     you refer to "your instructions," you are referring to instructions that

24     is SDS in Rogatica received from the SDS Main Board; correct?

25        A.   I believe so.  I believe so.

Page 26912

 1        Q.   And around when did the Rogatica SDS receive these instructions?

 2        A.   Look, Sveto Veselinovic was the president of the board.  I was in

 3     charge of the Executive Committee.  And as for that meeting in Pale, we

 4     were abreast of that.  He's the author of that letter, he signed it as

 5     the first signatory.  I was the last as the president of the Executive

 6     Committee.  And I was aware of things that he informed us about and me

 7     about, but believe me I can't remember when it was, at what period of

 8     time, at what month.

 9        Q.   We'll have an opportunity to revisit that with another witness.

10     Third, the concern you express about starting a war in this paragraph is

11     that the Serbian people in Rogatica were not yet sufficiently prepared.

12     By "prepared" you meant that in your view, the three of you, they had not

13     been sufficiently armed; correct?

14        A.   That's one thing.  Second of all, the mobilisation --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness needs to slow down.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, again.  Okay.  Could you please

17     resume.  You said, "That's one thing," apparently referring to what you

18     were asked about arming.  And then you said, "Second of all, the

19     mobilisation ..." And could you resume from there slowly.

20             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  Okay.  [Interpretation] Absorbed.  The

21     mobilisation absorbed a large number of the Serbian military conscripts

22     and took them to the military manoeuvre in Han Pijesak.  We were yet a

23     bigger minority without them than we were with them.  To launch or embark

24     on a conflict in such a situation would be tantamount to suicide.  We did

25     not want that.  We resigned.  We told them to replace us with other

Page 26913

 1     people if they so wanted because we could not be in charge of that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Now, it was around that time, late March 1992, that you helped

 4     organise the Gucevo company of the Serb Territorial Defence in Rogatica;

 5     right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31325.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31325 receives number P6823,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31353.

13        Q.   Now, I want to turn now to the agreement that you've discussed to

14     divide the territory of Rogatica between Muslim and Serb parts.  You

15     confirmed earlier that was on the 2nd of May 1992.  Now, it was your

16     understanding that in a division of the municipality there would be no

17     Muslims in the parts given to Serbs; right?

18        A.   No, we couldn't do that because, for example, in one village

19     there were ten Muslim houses and 15 Serb houses and such a village with

20     more of the houses of one ethnicity would be considered a village of that

21     ethnicity.  We did not want to expel anybody out of such a village.

22        Q.   I'm asking --

23             MR. TRALDI:  And I apologise to the court officer but I'm going

24     to need to call up a different document now, 65 ter 31410, page 14.

25        Q.   And, sir, this will be your testimony in the Karadzic case.

Page 26914

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I'm looking at the bottom of the page.

 2        Q.   You were asked about the division and you were looking at a map.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  This begins at line 20.

 4        Q.   And the transcript is only in English so I'll read it to you and

 5     I'll attempt to do so slowly.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And Mr. Karadzic asked you:

 8             "If the municipality was divided into two parts, were the Serbs

 9     going to be given urban parts and would it be similar to the map that we

10     are looking at?"

11             And you answered -- and it's not the map that I'm interested in

12     for the moment, you answered:

13             "Probably not because it is obvious that this northern line

14     indicates a Serbian neighbourhood, and there is no doubt that in any kind

15     of division there would be no Muslims."

16             So your testimony in the Karadzic case was at least for some

17     neighbourhoods that was going to be placed in the Serbian part, there

18     would be no Muslims after the division; right?

19        A.   It is correct.  But those were a hundred per cent Serb

20     neighbourhoods without a Muslim house, without a single Muslim, and those

21     neighbourhoods were never a subject of this division because it was well

22     known who those parts would belong to.  There were also pure Muslim areas

23     like Zepa.  Again, there were no talks about any divisions there because

24     it was already a pure Muslim area.  The only subject of talks about

25     divisions were those area where population was mixed.

Page 26915

 1        Q.   Well, sir, I'd put it to you that you were asked in the Karadzic

 2     case about the division and you gave the answer that I've recited, and so

 3     to say that answer applied only to neighbourhoods that were not really

 4     part of the division, as you've suggested now, I'd put to you that is a

 5     change in your evidence.  It is not consistent with your previous

 6     testimony.  Do you have any comment on that?

 7        A.   No, this is consistent with my previous evidence.  When it comes

 8     to the division, we stated from the outset that whatever was a majority

 9     Muslim population would --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness needs to slow down.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you please resume from where

12     you said, but more slowly:  "... we stated from the outset that whatever

13     was a majority Muslim population would ..." And would you resume from

14     there?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where a Muslim population was a

16     majority, those areas were not a subject of any talks or negotiations

17     about a division.  Such areas would be given to either of the two sides.

18     Where there were Serb settlements or Serb neighbourhoods with a majority

19     Serb population, those areas were also not a subject of negotiations.

20     Only those areas where population was mixed, those areas were a subject

21     of negotiations as to how to divide, how to split such areas with mixed

22     populations.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Well, I'd like to look at the negotiations a little bit more now.

25             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have back 65 ter 31353.

Page 26916

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I'm --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Since we were able to look at the evidence and

 4     sometimes look one page further down and one page further up, could we

 5     have a look at the next page.

 6             Witness, I read to you which part of your testimony in relation

 7     to the same.  Where you said:

 8             "These were predominantly Muslim parts, and of course Serbs had

 9     no place there either."

10             Predominantly is not the same as purely.  Apparently if there was

11     a predominant Muslim part, you said there was no place for Serbs, and by

12     using the word "either," apparently you also express here that in

13     predominantly Serb parts that Muslims had no place there, which is not

14     exactly the same as what you told us a minute ago.  Do you have any

15     comment or any explanation for what I put to you as part of your

16     testimony in the Karadzic case?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly.  This is what I'm

18     talking about.  If a settlement or an area had 55 or 60 Muslim houses,

19     and let's say 30 Serb houses, in any kind of division that settlement or

20     area would be given to the Muslim side and would become part of the

21     Muslim municipality, and the Serbs who found themselves there had to

22     respect the authorities of that municipality and vice versa.  If there

23     was a settlement with 60 Serb houses and 15 Muslim house, that territory

24     would be given under the control of the Serbian municipality of Rogatica.

25     And all the minority ethnicities should respect the authority of the

Page 26917

 1     municipality that they were given to.  That was the division that I had

 2     in mind.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now the text suggests otherwise.  You didn't

 4     say these were predominantly Muslim parts and of course Serbs had to obey

 5     to Muslim rule, but you say, "and of course Serbs had no place there ..."

 6     which is something quite different from what you told us a minute ago.

 7     Any comment or explanation for that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may have been a play on words.

 9     We were talking about a division of the territory into Serb and Muslim

10     municipalities, and obviously you could not draw any borders for each of

11     the ethnicity and for each of the house and every village to be

12     surrounded by a border and then the area would end up looking like a

13     tiger skin.  Our logic was that wherever there was a majority population

14     of one ethnicity --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, this does not further serve as an explanation

16     because I was focusing on the words "Serbs had no place there," and in

17     the other situation "Muslims had no place in Serb areas."

18             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31353.

20        Q.   And this will be a record of an interview you gave to the

21     Rogatica police on the 6th of June 2004.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask for page 3 in both languages, please.

23        Q.   Now at the top of the page in English you explain what happened

24     following the division of the territory.  You say:

25             "Both Assemblies separately accepted the division of territory

Page 26918

 1     and that was verified during the joint Assemblies Session."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And where is it in the B/C/S?  Otherwise the

 3     witness will have difficulties to follow.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Actually, I'm not certain and would need a moment.

 5     I apologise, Your Honour.

 6             Could we have, please, the previous page in the B/C/S.  I think

 7     we're looking at the middle of the page now.  There are discussions of

 8     Sjemec which is what indicates that to me.  And we'll see Sjemec

 9     mentioned in the third line of the English.  And I apologise again,

10     Your Honour.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you found where it reads in your own

13     language:

14             "Both Assemblies separately accepted the division of

15     territory ..."

16             Did you find that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now after it says that, you told the police:

21             "This was followed by the Serbian Assembly Session at Sjemec

22     attended by all the members of the parties within the Assembly.  I was

23     informed that the session was going to take place that day at Sjemec and

24     I went there but I was surprised by an agenda of the meeting.  Since the

25     first item on the agenda was appointment of the President of the

Page 26919

 1     Executive Committee.  This appear since a bit absurd to me since I was

 2     the president of the Executive Committee ..."

 3             Now a couple of lines later, you mention Milorad Sokolovic was

 4     elected as the new president.  You say he was elected "with explanation

 5     that I was too soft and too accommodating in negotiations and that

 6     someone more rough should be appointed."

 7             Now, were you telling the truth to the Rogatica police when you

 8     said this in 2004?

 9        A.   Your Honours, wherever I provided a statement in any shape or

10     form, I made sure to tell the truth like I am doing here now.  And, yes,

11     I did tell the truth then.

12        Q.   Okay.  So I have a couple of questions about what we've just

13     looked at.  First, who explained to you that someone more rough should be

14     appointed?

15        A.   Nobody individually.  Nobody at all.  But as a group they did

16     tell me.  I was tolerant during negotiations, I was reasonable and

17     sensible.  I wanted us to divide rather than to wage a war.  I did not

18     insist on things that I had to get at all costs.  I showed tolerance.  I

19     suppose that Mr. Milorad Sokolovic, who was a more experienced

20     politician, was a more skillful negotiator and therefore tougher.  His

21     position would have been different than mine because I had never been a

22     politician, not an active politician that is, and in that part they said

23     that I should be removed and that I should be replaced by him.  That's

24     how it went.

25        Q.   Who was present at this meeting?

Page 26920

 1        A.   A tough question.  All the Serb members of the assembly.

 2     Mile Cajkovic [phoen] was taking the minutes, he was the secretary of the

 3     assembly.  The president of the Assembly Tomislav Batinic chaired the

 4     meeting.  Behind my back there was Miroslav Mirkovic, he was one of those

 5     who took this statement from me.  He was an MP at the time.  I don't have

 6     a list of the attendees but this is more or less who was there.

 7        Q.   Sir, maybe I can shorten the question.  You've mentioned all the

 8     Serb members of the assembly was present.  Was there anyone else present?

 9        A.   If my memory serves me right, the secretary of the assembly was

10     in charge of the minutes.  There were also MPs.  But nobody else attended

11     the meeting.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Can I just ask a question, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  MPs, is that others or is that not others in your

14     understanding Mr. --

15             MR. TRALDI:  I think witness's understanding is perhaps more

16     relevant than mine.

17        Q.   Sir, when you say --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but in order to understand the question.  "Any

19     others," any members of the assembly, are MPs members of the assembly

20     should be explored.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I would need to ask the witness a question in order

22     to answer the question.

23             And Your Honour, Judge Moloto, I think has one.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe just answer Judge Orie first.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 26921

 1        Q.   Sir, when you say MPs do you mean members of the Serb assembly in

 2     Rogatica or members of a different assembly?

 3        A.   I meant primarily deputies in the Serb assembly of Rogatica.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Ujic, you mentioned that no one individually

 5     explained to you that you are too soft and Mr. Milorad Sokolovic was

 6     rough.  You said it was a whole group.  Who composed this group?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's a long story.  I have to

 8     really shorten it.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No, don't.  Don't tell me a story.  Just give me

10     the names of the members of the group.  That's all.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tomislav Batinic was in the group.

12     He was the president of the municipality.  Rajko Kusic, member of the SDS

13     Main Board.  The late Veljko Bojovic as a member of the Crisis Staff.

14     And I think Dusan Planojevic who was also a member of the Crisis Staff if

15     I remember correctly.  That was the group.  And I was told that by this

16     group immediately before I entered the assembly hall.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one additional question.

19             In response to a question put to you, you said, "There were also

20     MPs ..." when asked about anyone else than assembly members.  What did

21     you mean by MPs?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This included legally elected

23     deputies from all Serbian political parties who took part in the election

24     and who made up the Serbian Assembly of Rogatica.  Those who won the

25     majority in the elections won seats in the --

Page 26922

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Does that mean that no MPs, that means at

 2     the -- at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina or Republika Srpska were

 3     present, that exclusively elected members of the municipal board or the

 4     municipal assembly were present?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, when I said those

 6     were only deputies of the Serbian municipality of Rogatica, no one else

 7     came from any other levels of authorities, that's what I meant.  There

 8     was no one from republic organs of governance.  It consisted only of the

 9     local deputies.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That was the composition.  And no one else was

11     present either, even perhaps not a member.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I can guarantee that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Witness.

14             Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31353.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31353 receives number P6824,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Now, the Chamber has received evidence --

22             MR. TRALDI:  And I refer to P6773.

23        Q.   -- that about two weeks after this on the 18th of May the Serb

24     assembly withdrew from the agreement to divide Rogatica and claimed the

25     entire territory of the former Rogatica as a Serbian municipality.

Page 26923

 1     That's true, isn't it?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   So you mention the agreement in your statement.  You've mentioned

 4     it in your testimony.  At transcript page 12 today, you said:

 5             "We tried hard to have an ever-lasting peace until sometime

 6     around the 21st of May."

 7             So what I'd put to you is that in fact before the 21st, the Serb

 8     assembly had withdrawn from the negotiations, withdrawn from the

 9     agreement, and claimed the entire territory, and that you have not

10     provided that information which you know to the Trial Chamber in your

11     statement.  That's true, isn't it?

12        A.   If I made a mistake or misspoke, it was not intentional, just an

13     oversight.  When we discuss the division of territory into Serbian and

14     Muslim parts, that was in peacetime before a single bullet had been

15     fired, and this was our starting point and in that way we maintained some

16     sort of semblance of peace in Rogatica.  However, the first killing that

17     took place on the 6th of May, then the next one on the 20th of May,

18     already disrupted the atmosphere of negotiations and you couldn't call it

19     peace any longer.  Any agreement reached before that fell through.  So

20     if -- if you are not honouring the agreement, we are going to withdraw

21     from the agreement, and we'll go to the territory --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the last

23     sentence that the witness said.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last sentence.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So if they started killing people

Page 26924

 1     and disrupted this kind of peace, we withdrew because there can be no

 2     negotiations in wartime.  And we said, yes, we are going to withdraw and

 3     the whole territory belongs to us.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you also told us a while ago that you are

 5     not aware of any -- or that at least there may have been casualties at

 6     the other side as well but you just don't know about it.  You now give an

 7     explanation saying they started killing people, therefore we had to

 8     withdraw, whereas you told us that you do not know whether a similar

 9     thing happened on the other side which would shed a different light on

10     your decision to withdraw, wouldn't it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That shouldn't be the case.  I said

12     that I knew about those killed on the Serbian side.  The first one

13     happened the 6th of May while the negotiations were still underway, and I

14     said I don't know about any casualties on the Muslim side.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now briefly to your military

19     responsibilities.  Now, your military service in 1992 you've told us

20     began in the Gucevo Company of the Rogatica Serb TO.  That TO then became

21     the Rogatica Brigade of the VRS, right?

22        A.   That is not correct.  That was a TO local company which operated

23     in the local commune of Gucevo.  Its task was to protect only the

24     population in that specific territory.

25        Q.   I may have asked in an imprecise way.  The Rogatica Serb TO then

Page 26925

 1     became the Rogatica Brigade of the VRS; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  When the army was established, the TO became a constituent

 3     part of the army.

 4        Q.   Now, I want to turn now to your position in this brigade.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  And could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P353,

 6     page 28 in the English and the B/C/S transcript.

 7        Q.   Now, sir, this is one of General Mladic's notebooks from the war.

 8     We see here the date Saturday, 30 May 1992, meeting with unit commanders

 9     of the SR Corps.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And turning to page 29 in both languages.

11        Q.   We see at number 4 Rajko Kusic, commander of newly formed

12     Rogatica Brigade.  And below that --

13             MR. TRALDI:  And there is no number 5 in the English, I'm afraid.

14        Q.   We see your name, deputy commander.  So it's right that by 30 May

15     1992 the Rogatica Brigade was part of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps and you

16     were the deputy commander; right?

17        A.   Yes, according to the date that is so.  But I was the chief of

18     the brigade command.

19        Q.   Now, and I'm aware that you were -- under the brigade rules,

20     deputy commander is one of the powers associated with being Chief of

21     Staff of the brigade; right?  Under brigade rules in the JNA and

22     subsequently the VRS?

23        A.   Yes, well, everybody had their duties, those in the logistics,

24     myself, and everybody else.  So according to our military specialties we

25     were assigned different tasks.

Page 26926

 1        Q.   Right.  So you were both chief of staff and deputy commander;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   [Overlapping speakers]

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer, sir.

 8        A.   I said that's what you said.  But then again, I'm telling you

 9     that I was the chief of staff of the brigade.  Whether that was equal to

10     a deputy or not, I'm not going to go into that.  But I was the chief of

11     staff of the brigade.

12             MR. TRALDI:  And I won't explore it further.  I think we can

13     reach agreement with the defence on what the brigade rules say.

14        Q.   Now, sir, you've seen this particular entry before.  You say in

15     paragraph 4 of your statement that you were appointed chief of staff

16     around the 20th of June 1992.  In fact, we see you being referred to here

17     as deputy commander almost a month earlier, right?  And so you had that

18     authority far long before the 20th of June.

19        A.   Well, I didn't mention it in one of my statements that I was

20     appointed chief of staff I think in early May 1992 by the commander.

21     Only later an official appointment came from the superior command.  I am

22     not disputing that I was appointed chief of staff of the brigade in the

23     beginning of May.

24        Q.   As chief of staff, you had the authority to assign tasks to

25     subordinates in accordance with the brigade commander's decisions; right?

Page 26927

 1        A.   Yes, that is right, but you need to know that I am in the

 2     artillery and that I trained them not to fire shells randomly.  I was

 3     supposed to teach them how to engage military targets, and I was also

 4     involved in training.

 5        Q.   I was just coming to your artillery involvement.  Aside from

 6     serving as chief of staff you were also artillery co-ordinator for the

 7     brigade; right?

 8        A.   Initially, yes.  At the beginning, yes.

 9        Q.   Now, I have several questions about the brigade.  First, the

10     brigade command was located in the Upi Trans facility; right?

11        A.   Yes, for a period of time.  Later on it was at the IKM.

12        Q.   And where was the IKM located?

13        A.   That's a command post where some elements of the army remained,

14     whereas the command was relocated either closer or further from the front

15     line depending on the need.

16        Q.   I'm going to ask you now about the commanders of some of the

17     units --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I think you asked something and the witness

19     didn't answer it.

20             MR. TRALDI:  I --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where was the IKM located?  That was the

22     question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I did answer.  After the

24     brigade command was moved, it remained at Upi Trans.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 26928

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Part of the units remained there.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was where was the IKM located.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on the premises of Upi Trans

 4     company.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why didn't you answer that at the first place?

 6             Mr. Traldi.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, if I would know what

 8     the Prosecutor wishes to know, I would give a straight-forward answer.

 9     I'm not trying to hide anything.  Then from the Upi Trans, the forward

10     command post --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was exactly what the Prosecutor asked you.

12     Please listen carefully to the questions.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But before we go on, do we understand therefore

14     that the brigade command never left Upi Trans facility?  Is that what you

15     are now saying?  Because when the Prosecutor said to you, "The command

16     brigade was located in the Upi Trans facility?"

17             You said:  "Yes, for a time, but later it went to the IKM."

18             Now, you're saying it stayed at the Upi Trans facility.  It never

19     moved to the IKM.  Is that how we must understand your evidence?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that case, Your Honours, I was

21     misunderstood.  Let me repeat.  Initially or for a period of time the

22     brigade command was in Upi Trans.  Later as the war operations

23     progressed, the brigade command moved to other locations.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  My question then was where -- what location did

25     they move to?  That was the question by the Prosecutor.  Can you answer

Page 26929

 1     that now?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  To the company called

 3     DP Jasna in Rogatica.  It's a factory that manufactured children's

 4     clothes.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's a much better answer, I think.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   I'm going to ask you, sir, now --

 8             MR. TRALDI:  And thank you, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're welcome.

10        Q.   -- about the commanders of some of the units under the command of

11     the brigade.  The commander of the 1st Infantry Battalion was

12     Stojan Perkovic; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, there was a battalion based at Borike that was commanded by

15     Milovan Lelek until he replaced you as chief of staff; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, there was an intervention platoon at Upi Trans,

18     Milenko Jankovic was the commander of that intervention platoon; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, there was also a unit based in Kozici.  The commander of

21     that unit in 1992 was Dragoje Paunovic, aka Spiro; right?

22        A.   Spiro, right, that's this execution that we talked about.

23        Q.   What was the title of that unit in the brigade?

24        A.   It was called the 3rd or the --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand what the

Page 26930

 1     witness --

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Sorry, could you repeat your answer, sir.

 4        A.   Whether it was called the 3rd or the Kozici Battalion, something

 5     like that.  I'm not sure.  I think that at first it was called

 6     Kozici Battalion and then it was renamed the 3rd.

 7        Q.   Now turning to another topic, you testified in the Karadzic case

 8     that you were aware that two members of the Rogatica Brigade were

 9     disciplined for killing a non-Serb; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And they received one-month prison sentences; correct?

12        A.   Yes, that was correct.  That was the --

13        Q.   And --

14        A.   -- punishment.

15        Q.   -- you testified as well that you didn't not know of any other

16     cases where members of the Rogatica Brigade were disciplined for

17     committing crimes against non-Serbs; right?

18        A.   I said that some of them were in prison.  Whether anyone else was

19     punished for murder apart from the one that I mentioned, you have to

20     believe me that I don't know.

21        Q.   Okay.  And the one that you mentioned when you say that, you

22     refer to the same one as in the Karadzic case, two persons sent to prison

23     for a month because they killed a person that was a prisoner of war;

24     right?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 26931

 1        Q.   Now, a number of members of the brigade had been prosecuted after

 2     the war; right?

 3        A.   Yes, exactly.

 4        Q.   And just to be fair, I think you were continuing to answer my

 5     previous question.  So I'll re-ask the last one.  A number of the members

 6     of the brigade have been prosecuted after the war; correct?

 7             I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for

 8     the record.

 9        A.   Yes, that is correct.

10        Q.   For instance, a group of Rogatica were arrested and charged for

11     the massacre in the village of Karacici in the month of September 1992

12     just last month; right?

13        A.   Well, yes.  Sorry, the proceedings are still ongoing before the

14     BH court.  We don't know the outcome, what it will be.  However, I am

15     following this case.

16        Q.   When I said it had happened just last month, I wasn't suggesting

17     the proceedings were over, sir.  Karacici in 1992 was a Muslim village in

18     southern Rogatica; right?  Again --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer

20     clearly.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.  Let me just

22     add one thing -- [In English] Okay.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, could you please look at page 72,

Page 26932

 1     lines 2 and 3 and check whether you were correctly recorded.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I was.  And perhaps the -- oh, no, I wasn't.  You

 3     are correct.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  A group --

 5             MR. TRALDI:  A group of members of the Rogatica brigade were

 6     arrested.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And they were arrested, they were not "arrived."

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Right.  They were arrested. You are far more precise

 9     than I am at the moment, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   So, sir, I want to turn now to activities in the Rogatica Serb TO

13     in May of 1992.  Now, you've mentioned some actions in which Serbs were

14     killed before the agreement was breached -- or withdrawn from, rather.

15     In fact, before that the Rogatica Serb TO had destroyed groups in

16     Zivaljevici and Medna Luka among other places, right?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   And leading up to the 17th of May, 1992, the Rogatica Serb TO was

19     calling on the residents of Muslim villages to surrender their weapons;

20     right?

21        A.   I believe so.

22        Q.   And it was communicated to the Muslims that if they did not

23     surrender their weapons, Rogatica would be attacked; right?

24        A.   Well, if you go to war this becomes a legitimate military target.

25     If --

Page 26933

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- members of the opposing party,

 3     armed members are there, that's a military target.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that wasn't the question.  That might be a

 5     point of discussion between the parties.  You were asked whether it was

 6     communicated to the Muslims that if they did not surrender their weapons,

 7     that Rogatica would be attacked.  Was that communicated to the Muslims?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what was said.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Traldi, you asked a question and you received a confirming

11     answer from the witness about the Rogatica Serb TO destroying groups in

12     Zivaljevici, the expression "to destroy a group" is not entirely clear to

13     me.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Sir, when you agreed that the Rogatica Serb TO had destroyed

16     groups in Zivaljevici and Medna Luka, what did you mean by "destroyed"?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Destroyed was used by you.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Sorry, what did you mean to be agreeing to?

20        A.   Well, that was far from my perception and my direct knowledge.

21     That happened in Borik, both Luka and Zivaljevici.  The 2nd Battalion was

22     there.  It was their area of responsibility.  I third -- heard about this

23     destruction but I don't know any details.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, when you used the word "destroy" what

Page 26934

 1     did you mean to convey to the witness.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  What I meant was to convey information contained in

 3     a specific document emanating from the brigade.

 4             So if I could, Your Honour, ask --

 5        Q.   Sir, when you said that you heard about this destruction, did you

 6     hear enemy groups had been killed?  I see you've nodded, but you have to

 7     articulate your answer for the record.

 8        A.   Yes, absolutely.  I heard about it.  I know.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's clear.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Now, around this time, and I'm speaking now of around the 17th of

13     May, the 18th of May, what the agreement was withdrawn from, the Rogatica

14     forces, Serb forces, were carrying out reconnaissance; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution have 65 ter 31405.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And while we're waiting for that, could the witness

18     tell us about when he heard about this destruction of groups including

19     killing.

20             When did you hear about that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly the same day or the

22     following day, a day later.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm asking you this because I earlier asked

24     you whether you were aware of any Muslim casualties during that period of

25     time in which you described Serb victims.  And I think you said it was on

Page 26935

 1     the other side, you didn't know about that.  That was therefore not the

 2     full truth, was it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a minor oversight then.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I specifically asked you and you explained why

 5     you wouldn't know that, because it was on the other side, you had no

 6     information.  If you wish, I would read it to you, as a matter of fact,

 7     what you said there.  I'm just trying to find it in the transcript at

 8     this moment.  If anyone could assist me, I'm trying to find the ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President -- I apologise.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll read to you again the question and your answer.

12     The question was:

13             "Now you described in some detail about Serbs being killed early

14     May, I think the last incident you mentioned was the 24th, you gave

15     names, et cetera.  During that period of time, were only some Serbs

16     murdered or were there also killings committed against Muslims?"

17             Your answer was the following:

18             "Well, believe me, as much as I would like to tell the truth, I

19     knew about those Serb victims because that was in our territory.  As for

20     the losses in the Muslim territory, that's something I wasn't able to

21     see.  Therefore, I wouldn't like to say anything.  Even if there was a

22     single victim, it's a victim."

23             That was your answer.  I put it to you that this was not the

24     whole truth.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, believe me, it was an

Page 26936

 1     oversight.  It was only when the Prosecutor put his question to me that

 2     my memory was jogged and I remembered those days and I remembered those

 3     things.  However, before the question was put to me, I really, really

 4     could not remember those things.  I am not denying that I learned about

 5     that thing happening, but it was later, later, later, later.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you earlier when you learned about it.  You

 7     said most likely the same day it happened.  You were talking about the

 8     17th of May.  Is that also an oversight?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dates, dates, dates.  Dates will

10     bury me.  They are the bane of my life.  Believe me, even if I did know

11     something, I did not have that information first-hand.  I would hear

12     things from other people a day later, two days later, three days later,

13     so when I mention a date I really cannot guarantee that things happened

14     on those days.  The information was sparse.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  This is beside the point.  You said that you learned

16     about it most likely on the same day it happened.  I didn't ask you to

17     further say what date that was.  And apparently there are good reasons to

18     believe that it happened on the 17th of May, but if there is any doubt

19     about that then we'd -- I would like to -- I would like to warn you that

20     if you are giving testimony which is not in accordance with the truth and

21     if you would do so intentionally, that you expose yourself to prosecution

22     or investigation.

23             Now you explained to us that it was not intentional, but your

24     explanations shows also some inconsistencies including that you did not

25     have the information first-hand.  I never asked you about whether it was

Page 26937

 1     first-hand information or not but whether you learned about it.  Let's

 2     leave it to that.

 3             Please be careful to give precise answers which present the whole

 4     truth.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a follow-up question.

 6             Sir, a few minutes ago you were asked about a case of the

 7     killings which has resulted into a case that is currently being heard.

 8     You answered that, yes, you are aware of it, and you are following the

 9     case.  You remember that?  You said the case is not finished yet but you

10     are following it.  You remember that piece of evidence you gave a few

11     minutes ago?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you did know and you do -- you do -- you are

14     following a case currently which you know involved people who were killed

15     during the war.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, please do.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I learned about that

19     only when that group was arrested about a month ago, for example.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you learned about it about a month ago, this

21     means that in fact this morning when you were asked the question about

22     people dieing on the Muslim side, you already knew it about a month ago.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I thought you were

25     asking me about the beginning of May 1992.  That's why I answered the way

Page 26938

 1     I did.  As the war went on, obviously there were killings on both sides.

 2     And that case also happened during the war.  And I only learned about

 3     those cases when people were either arrested or declared suspects.

 4             I claim with full responsibility that I didn't know.  It is not

 5     that I had already known and that I don't want to talk about it here in

 6     the courtroom.  No.  I only learnt that when those people were arrested.

 7     Before that, I didn't know about the case.  I don't even know what year

 8     it took place -- or rather, I didn't know before they were arrested.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you for that.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And in all fairness to the witness, I, re-reading my

11     question, I do see that I focused my question on killings early May, and

12     I mentioned the 24th of May as the last date of the incident described.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I was talking about the killings that Mr. -- the

14     Prosecutor is referring to.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll move on.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I think it may be time for the break.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It is time for a break.  We are beyond that.

18             MR. TRALDI:  If I might make one brief submission while the

19     witness is exiting, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you think we need him for it and if it's --

21             MR. TRALDI:  I don't.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  When he's exiting.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's fine.

25             You may follow the usher, Witness.

Page 26939

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             MR. TRALDI:  And that was simply, Mr. President, to clarify any

 3     ambiguity in the record.  I had not intended to submit 17 May was the

 4     date of the destruction of enemy groups.  I would submit that date can be

 5     located in Exhibit P3924, page 2.  I'd intended, when I'd referred to the

 6     17th, 18th, and 19th, to direct the witness's attention to the

 7     time-period for my next question.  And just in case there was any

 8     ambiguity on the record, I wanted to clarify it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Which apparently you had a certain event on your

10     mind.  Could -- could you tell us what date you'd link to that event?

11             MR. TRALDI:  And it's -- Your Honour, it's the 6th of May for the

12     destruction of a group in Zivaljevici --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And the 8th -- I should say both of them are

15     identified in the record as sabotage groups.  The 8th are -- [Overlapping

16     speakers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  They are all within the time-limit I used when

18     putting my question to the witness.

19             MR. TRALDI:  In May.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So in that respect, the witness could not have been

21     confused.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Only it would be me that could have been confused.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And I would say rather that it was only my statement

25     that needed to be clarified and not anyone else's.

Page 26940

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.  We take a break and we will

 2     resume at 10 minutes to 2.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 1.33 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.57 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

 6     the courtroom.

 7             Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, you certainly are aware that there was a

 8     reminder by the Chamber staff about reporting on the expert reports of

 9     Defence experts.  We didn't receive a monthly report which in itself is

10     already worrying, but we expect then that as was expressed in this e-mail

11     to receive your report by Monday.  Could we expect such a report on

12     Monday?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, you can, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Traldi, if you would use any document in the near future,

16     perhaps you could already indicate which one it would be so that everyone

17     is in.

18             MR. TRALDI:  I think it's already on my screen.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It's already there.

20             MR. TRALDI:  It's 65 ter 31405.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Now, sir, shortly before the break you confirmed that around the

25     17th of May 1992, the Rogatica Serb TO carried out reconnaissance.  What

Page 26941

 1     we see here is a report on the reconnaissance carried out in the region

 2     of Okruglo and Satorovici.  It says it's submitted by Radislav Ljubinac.

 3     Now, he was a member of the Rogatica Serb TO; correct?  I see you've

 4     nodded, but again you have to articulate your answer for the record.

 5        A.   Yes, he was a member of the Serbian TO in Rogatica.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness is nodding while the translation is

 7     continuing.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I apologize.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And therefore just wait until the end of the

10     interpretation.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you.  I had misunderstood.

12        Q.   So, sir, my only question about this document is these are, in

13     fact, two of the villages where the Rogatica Serb TO was carrying out

14     reconnaissance at this time on or about the 19th of May 1992; right?

15        A.   Those were loyal Muslim villages.  The villages were there all

16     the time throughout the war, so the answer is yes.

17             MR. TRALDI:  And could the Prosecution have 65 ter 31406.

18        Q.   While it comes up, you confirmed Mr. Ljubinac was a member of the

19     Serbian TO.  He later became a member of the VRS Rogatica Brigade; right?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, this is a report by a Zoran Bojat and it's a report on

22     reconnaissance in the area of Sjemec.  Is that another of the areas where

23     reconnaissance was being carried out on or about the 19th of May 1992?

24        A.   Yes.  It is the area from Borike to Visegradi.  It's a hill top

25     around Sjemec with the villages --

Page 26942

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Which the witness needs to repeat the names of.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Can you repeat the names of the villages you mentioned at the end

 4     of your answer, sir?

 5        A.   Stavanj, Sjemec, Sjemecko Polje, Medna Luka, Kopito, and further

 6     on in the direction of Visegrad along the slope in terrain.

 7        Q.   Now, it says in the second sentence general mobilisation was

 8     carried out in the mentioned area.  Now mobilisation of Serbs in Rogatica

 9     was carried out on or around the 19th of May; right?

10        A.   Yes, one could say so.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31405 and 31406.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31405 receives number P6825.  And

14     document 31406 receives number P6826, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P6825 and P6826 are admitted into evidence.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   And the results of reconnaissance in Rogatica were reported up to

18     the SRK command; right?

19        A.   First to the brigade command and then the amalgamating report was

20     sent to the corps command by the brigade command.

21        Q.   And just to be very specific, the results of reconnaissance in

22     Rogatica on or around the 19th of May were reported up to the brigade

23     command and then to the corps command; right?

24        A.   Yes.  But the title is incorrect.  It was a summary of all the

25     reports and a report summarised like that was then sent to the corps

Page 26943

 1     command.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution please have Exhibit P352, page

 3     349 in English and 357 in B/C/S transcript.

 4        Q.   And, sir, looking back to the 17th of May, 1992, what we are

 5     going to see here is another one of General Mladic's notebooks from

 6     during the war.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Talking about the notebooks.

 8             You earlier said at a page you showed to us that there was no 5.

 9     You remember that?

10             MR. TRALDI:  I did.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As a matter of fact, there is a mis -- there

12     seems to be a mistranscription or translation, it says "May" where it's

13     in a series of one, two, three, four, five, six -- seven, apparently

14     "five" is understood as a reference to a month and is translated by

15     "May", which is -- and it was the 30th of May, but I don't think that --

16     if you look at the original, both B/C/S handwritten and the other one, it

17     becomes clear that there is a clear transcription or translation error

18     there.

19             MR. TRALDI:  We don't intend to rely on the word "May" in that

20     portion --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. TRALDI:  We can request anything the Chamber wants, but for

23     the record --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

25             MR. TRALDI:  -- we don't intend to rely on the word.

Page 26944

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, in general terms, there's no need to correct

 2     it for the proceedings here because it has not sufficient relevance, but

 3     perhaps for the basic materials it's good to have it as accurate as

 4     possible.  But I leave that in your hands.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   So, sir, we see here in the middle of the page in both languages

 8     a meeting 17 May 1992, Sokolac, 1200 hours.  And General Mladic is

 9     recording talks with representatives of Rogatica, Olovo, Han Pijesak,

10     Pale, and the Belgrade people from this area.  Did you attend this

11     meeting?

12        A.   No, this doesn't tell me whether I was there or not and I am not

13     familiar with this meeting, so I don't know whether I was there or not.

14     Perhaps I was but I don't know for a fact.  Therefore, I would refrain

15     from answering either yes or no.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Now, turning to page 354 in the English and 362 in

17     the B/C/S.

18        Q.   General Mladic is recording tasks, and we see at point 1, he

19     writes:

20             "Monitor the situation at the front gathering as much data about

21     the enemy."

22             And at point 3 he writes:

23             "Speed up mobilisation and bring RJ," that's war units, "up to

24     strength."

25             Sir, we've seen that in the next couple of days reconnaissance

Page 26945

 1     and mobilisation were carried out by Serb forces in Rogatica

 2     municipality.  Were instructions given or tasks defined at this meeting

 3     passed on to you to pass on to the soldiers under your command?

 4        A.   I never saw these assignments in a written form.  I didn't.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Now, can the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31404.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for me to understand the answer.

 7             When you said "I didn't," did you mean to say that you did not

 8     pass on any instructions you had received to the soldiers under your

 9     command?  Is that how we have to understand it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not see these

11     instructions and therefore I could not forward them to anybody because I

12     didn't see them.  I didn't receive them.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  But that wasn't the question.  The question was not

14     whether you had seen this written instructions but whether instructions

15     were given or tasks defined that were passed on to you.  That does not

16     necessarily include that you would have seen those instructions.  Did you

17     receive any instructions which may relate to what we just read as having

18     been discussed?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, believe me.  I don't

20     remember that I ever received them or that I ever saw them, but I do

21     agree that there were mobilisation calls.  There was an ongoing

22     mobilisation at the time.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Let me ask two questions to follow-up on that.  First, you've

25     confirmed reconnaissance and mobilisation were undertaken.  Who

Page 26946

 1     instructed that Serbs -- that Serb TO units conduct reconnaissance on or

 2     about the 18th and 19th of May 1992?

 3        A.   The staff commander of the Serbian TO, Mr. Rajko Kusic.  He was

 4     the one who could have done that.

 5        Q.   And were you aware that he'd issued such instructions?

 6        A.   Whatever I say, I might be wrong.  But believe me, I was not

 7     aware of that.

 8        Q.   Now, this is -- what we see here is an order from the SRK command

 9     to the Rogatica Brigade TO command, dated the 22nd of May 1992.  And it

10     reads here:

11             "Pursuant to the orders of superior command, and to ensure the

12     most effective possible realisation of the organisational and

13     establishment changes in the Corps and better organised operations by

14     units in the zone of responsibility.

15             "I hereby order.

16             "Strengthen the former TO units of the defence forces of the

17     Serbian Republic of BH and form the following."

18             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could turn to page 2 in both languages,

19     point J.

20        Q.   And it says:

21             "Form the Rogatica Territorial Defence from the territory of

22     Rogatica.  The brigade commander will be Bogdan Kusic."

23             Should that read Rajko Kusic?

24        A.   Bogdan Kusic did not exist.  It has to be Rajko Kusic.  This is a

25     typo or a translation mistake.

Page 26947

 1        Q.   And so on the 22nd of May your -- would the Rogatica Serb TO, the

 2     Rogatica Brigade of the VRS, your brigade, was receiving orders from the

 3     SRK command; right?

 4        A.   It makes sense, yes.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31404.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31404 receives number P6827,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  I see the time, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             Witness, we are not able to conclude your testimony today and

13     since we are not sitting tomorrow we would like to see you back on

14     Monday, but I want to instruct you that you should not speak or

15     communicate with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony

16     already given or still to be given on Monday.  If that is clear to you,

17     you may follow the usher and we would like to see you back Monday morning

18     at 9.30 in the morning.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume Monday, the

22     20th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day

25                           of October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.