Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26948

 1                           Monday, 20 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that both parties had some preliminary

12     matters to raise.

13             Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

15             Just very briefly, last week, during cross-examination, at

16     transcript page 26926, I mentioned that I would not follow up further

17     with the witness regarding the relationship between the positions of

18     Chief of Staff and deputy commander under the brigade rules but would

19     seek agreement with the Defence.  Mr. Lukic and I discussed it this

20     morning.  My understanding is that the parties are in agreement that

21     under the JNA brigade rules, the Chief of Staff is also the

22     deputy commander of the brigade.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I see you're nodding yes so apparently

24     there was agreement.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 26949

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it is hereby put on the record that the parties

 2     agree that under the JNA brigade rules, the Chief of Staff is also the

 3     deputy commander of the brigade.  We consider this an agreed fact.

 4             That was your preliminary matter?

 5             MR. TRALDI:  That was ours, yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 8             And the Defence has to explain the position with the experts as

 9     Your Honours asked from us to do.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  To be honest with you, I'm also a bit confused with

12     the developments in this area.  I just learned over the weekend that

13     nothing is disclosed in regard of our expert reports.  And I got the

14     report from my staff that expert report done by military expert is

15     finalised in B/C/S.  It's sent for translation, but I was explained that

16     it has to be arranged, all the documents have to be uploaded, and because

17     of the influx of Defence witnesses, our support staff is not capable of

18     dealing with -- with the -- this material and we will have to find a way

19     how to, I don't know, probably ask the Registrar to help us with the --

20     new members of our team since it's obvious that with the manpower we have

21     right now we will not be able to finish this work.

22             I don't -- I heard that it won't be a -- possible before the end

23     of the case.  So because it's really a lot of work.

24             But I can tell you that -- so military expert finished his work.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What I do not understand is, is a matter of

Page 26950

 1     uploading or selecting or -- what is it that causes such problems that it

 2     cannot be done within the next year?

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Every expert report has documents that support that

 4     expert report and those documents have to be found in the system since to

 5     check whether there are already parts of the admitted -- admitted

 6     documents, admitted evidence, or not, or it's a new document, and all

 7     those documents have some strange numbers so it's not possible just to

 8     compare the number and have the problem solved.  So -- but I'll promise

 9     that I will work with my staff to solve the problem and hopefully we'll

10     have some help from the Registrar on this issue.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, in general term, I would say that to the extent

12     possible, the Registrar always tries to assist at the best of its

13     abilities any party in resolving problems.

14             MR. LUKIC:  And I -- if I may continue, because I am pretty lost

15     myself.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. LUKIC:  On 2nd of October we received translation of

18     supporting material of military expert.  On the 25th of September, we

19     received a translation of aerial bombs expert report on aerial bombs.  We

20     are expecting translation on Sarajevo shooting incidents on the

21     24th of October.  On the same date we should receive translation of

22     Markale 1 and II expert reports and on shelling incidents of Sarajevo as

23     well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's four translations in one day to be

25     received.

Page 26951

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Three.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Shootings incidents.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Markale II is one -- one.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Markale I and II.  Okay.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, that's one.

 6             On 17th of November this year, we should receive translation on

 7     demographic expert report, and we received B/C/S reports on Saturday from

 8     mining experts.  It's mining of religious and sacral buildings.  And we

 9     received expert report in B/C/S from the communication expert, also, I

10     think, on Saturday.  But the biggest problem are those ... Markale I,

11     Markale II, mining expert, and shooting -- shooting incidents from

12     Sarajevo because they have the most documents and they have very strange

13     numbers with the -- the pictures or documents that follow that expertise.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But where do these numbers come from?  I mean,

15     strange numbers.  Someone must have invented the number, isn't it?

16             MR. LUKIC:  I only know that staff has a great problem, great

17     deal of problems with those numbers.  Some -- many of them are downloaded

18     from the Tribunal site but the numbers do not match anything that we use.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Numbers from other cases?  Or have you tried to

20     understand where and --

21             MR. LUKIC:  It's very long numbers.  It is not ERN number.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It's not exhibit number.  It's not ID doc number.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But then the expert could explain where the numbers

25     come from, isn't it?  The experts are responsible for --

Page 26952

 1             MR. LUKIC:  They did, but still it's not possible to track in

 2     that way.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  But what is their explanation?  What are these

 4     numbers in their view?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  They say that they downloaded from the Tribunal site.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not an answer to the question I would have

 7     put to them.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We can inquire again.  We did inquire.  We did seek

 9     the explanation from them.  But obviously it's -- somehow it's not --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, of course, if it would be possible to match

11     them with an existing documentary system within the Registrar, then I'm

12     quite confidence that the Registry could give some help.

13             Let's try to get the right answers to the relevant questions.  I

14     think that's the first step, very important to be taken.

15             Apart from that, if translations of the expert reports are there,

16     then I would suggest that at least the reports themselves are already

17     disclosed even if not the full supporting material is there yet.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Only that those supporting materials inside the

19     reports would have those strange numbers, so I don't know how much would

20     it be workable for the OTP.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least I take that apart from the numbers

22     that at least the Office of the Prosecutor would be able to orient itself

23     on the gist of what the experts are telling.

24             MS. BIBLES:  That's correct, Your Honour.  Any disclosure of

25     reports in whatever format would be of assistance at this point in time.

Page 26953

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  They might even have a clue for your strange

 2     numbers.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe, yeah.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps they turn out to be lucky numbers then.

 5     That's ...

 6             MR. LUKIC:  I'll give the instruction to my staff members to

 7     disclose whatever we have in our possession.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And as soon as the translations are ready, and

 9     I do understand that in four days from now a new series of three will be

10     there to disclose them without delay to the Prosecution.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Sometimes, not because it is a CLSS fault, but

12     sometimes these translations are late because we dumped a lot of

13     documents on them already, the witness statements and so on.  So it

14     doesn't mean that we are going to receive these on these dates but we

15     hope so.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But it's scheduled for the 24th, I understand.  And

17     the aerial bombs on the 25th of September, that report is available in

18     translation by now?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Aerial bombs.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you mentioned the date of the

21     25th of September but I could be mistaken.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, it should be translated already.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you have not disclosed that yet?

24             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, because of those numbers.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I would suggest that whatever -- however odd the

Page 26954

 1     numbers may be that at least what is there, available in text, that that

 2     is already disclosed and I do understand that it's there already for a

 3     month and the Prosecution has not yet had the benefit of looking at it.

 4             Anything further on the matter, Mr. Lukic?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Nothing further.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  But we will close whatever we have in English.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Then could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

10             Meanwhile I address the -- one matter that is the associated

11     exhibits and the MFI relation to witness Vladimir Lukic.

12             During the testimony of Vladimir Lukic, a number of documents

13     were MFI'd.  The parties were instructed to review and identify those

14     portions they wished to have in evidence.  At the end of the testimony,

15     the Defence was also invited to provide a revised list of associated

16     exhibits that it was tendering with this witness.  The Chamber hereby --

17     the Chamber would like to receive an update on this matter and perhaps

18     not now immediately, but if any progress has been made, the Chamber would

19     like to hear.

20             MR. LUKIC:  The ball is in my field, Your Honours.  Mr. Traldi

21     did his part of the work.  I just have to finalise the table --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  This week?

23             MR. LUKIC:  This week for sure.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's fine.  I am afraid that football is

25     played with one ball but I'm afraid that there's a lot of balls on your

Page 26955

 1     half of the pitch.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I realise that, Your Honour.  I'm working hard to

 3     solve all the troubles.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Just as a final matter while the witness is being

 6     brought in, Mr. President.  There was one issue with the transcript on

 7     Thursday that I discussed with my learned friend and I wasn't sure how he

 8     intended to handle it.  It related to one of the questions on direct.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  It was agreed that I probably should ask to re-open

10     the direct since there is one word entered on the page 26897, rows 24 and

11     25, when I asked the witness about Tomislav Batinic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  It was entered that he was killed.  Maybe I misspoke,

14     but the position is that that gentleman is still alive.  He was wounded.

15     So whatever Your Honours think is the best to clarify that matter.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I can say we wouldn't have any objection to briefly

17     reopening re-direct -- or sorry, briefly reopening direct to clarify.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  One question would be ...

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ujic, good morning.  First of all, I'd like to

23     remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given

24     at the beginning of your testimony.

25                           WITNESS:  MILE UJIC [Resumed]

Page 26956

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  There was one matter remaining from last Thursday.

 3     You were asked about Mr. Tomo Batinic; do you remember?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said that something happened in

 6     November 1992 with him; do you remember that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was wounded.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the question suggested that he was

 9     killed, but parties agree that he was wounded and you have confirmed this

10     now.  So, therefore, I think, Mr. Lukic, that the matter is sufficiently

11     resolved.

12             If you -- would you like to add anything or ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know that on that day, he

16     was inspecting one of the lines facing Pale municipality with the

17     security officer from the brigade command.  On their return, they drove

18     over an antitank mine, that, on that occasion, the driver got killed

19     whereas Mr. Batinic sustained severe injuries.  He lost one eye.  He was

20     wounded to his leg.  He had pieces of shrapnel in his head, et cetera.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And I do understand well that he is still alive

22     today?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he is still alive.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

Page 26957

 1             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination, Mr. Ujic.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 3        Q.   And good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P166.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, this morning, I want to start with the operations

 7     conducted by the Rogatica Brigade in late May 1992.  This is a document

 8     dated the 23rd of May bearing the name Rajko Kuzic.  This is being sent

 9     through Sokolac, and if you look in the top right corner, you can see the

10     identification for military post 1132, that was the post number for the

11     2nd Romanija brigade based in Sokolac; right?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct.

13        Q.   Now, in the addressee line, we read Supreme Command of the

14     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and commander of TO Sokolac.

15             Do you know who Mr. Kuzic would have meant by Supreme Command of

16     the Serb Republic of BiH?

17        A.   Well, as a rule, the supreme commander of the armed forces of any

18     army or any country is at the same time the president of the republic.

19        Q.   Now, in this document, Mr. Kuzic refers to armed operations

20     conducted on the 22nd of May "enemy strongholds in the villages of Dub,

21     Prokrivenik, Kopljevici, Kozici, and Cadovi and also against Pasic Kula,

22     Rajs Laze, and Rudo 2."  At the end of the document, he writes that the

23     Rogatica Territorial Defence unit will conducted an attack on Oskoplje.

24     Now the villages I have just mentioned, those were all Muslim villages;

25     correct?

Page 26958

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct, only you made one mistake.  Rather than on

 2     the 22nd of May, as it's written here, it should read the 2nd of May, not

 3     22nd.  I see that it's written 22nd.

 4             Yes, these are all Muslim villages from which attacks came at the

 5     minority Serb community.  Probably he decided to prevent these attacks

 6     and to try to attack with counter-fire.

 7        Q.   You said these were -- you said this should read the 2nd of May,

 8     that the Rogatica Territorial Defence attacked -- the Serb Territorial

 9     Defence attacked these villages.  Were you recorded correctly?

10        A.   No, no.  You said it was on the -- on the 2nd of May.  I'm just

11     drawing your attention that it's not the 2nd of May but 22nd of May which

12     is consistent with the document which says 22nd day.  Maybe it was a

13     mistranslation that I received.

14        Q.   Either way I'm happy to see we agree it's the 22nd that is at

15     issue.

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31450.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for that Mr. Traldi, I'm a

19     confused about military post 1132.  You said Sokolac.  That was confirmed

20     by the witness.  The stamp reads Ljubljana.  Is there any explanation

21     either to be given by the witness or do the parties agree on why it says

22     Ljubljana which is not the same as Sokolac.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I don't have a submission to make in that respect at

24     the moment, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

Page 26959

 1             MR. TRALDI:  I sought confirmation of the post number in other

 2     documents but hadn't sought an explanation for Ljubljana.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the stamp you looked at a second ago said

 4     military post 1132.  You confirmed that it was Sokolac.  At the same

 5     time, I see Ljubljana appearing in that same stamp.  Do you have any

 6     explanation for that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I know, and whether

 8     that's sufficient or not it's up to you judge, I suppose that this

 9     military post used to be located in Ljubljana.  Later on, after it moved

10     from Slovenia it went to Sokolac.  Probably they still had the same old

11     stamp which says Ljubljana and that is why it appears on this document.

12     This is as much as I know.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The stamp not being updated.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Now, sir, what we're seeing on the screen now, is a regular

17     operations report from the Serbian Army of BiH Rogatica Brigade command

18     to the RSK command dated 31 May 1992.  And if I could direct your

19     attention to point 6 this will require us to turn to page 2 in the

20     English.

21             We see a note on the expenditure of fuel and ammunition.  1500,

22     7.62 millimetre bullets; 160, 82 millimetre shells; 120, 60 millimetre

23     shells; five, 120-millimetre shells and others.  Now this related to

24     ammunition expended by the Rogatica Brigade; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's what it reads.  However, I claim that in each report

Page 26960

 1     the commander always pictured larger expenditure of ammunition so as to

 2     be able to request more from the brigade in order to have a reserve at

 3     his disposal.  That is why these figures are so high:  1500 bullets,

 4     2.000 bullets, 160 shells, and so on.

 5        Q.   The types of ammunition reflected in the report, those are all

 6     types of ammunition that were used by the Rogatica Brigade in operations

 7     in late May; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I see for 120-millimetre shells he's only listed five pieces.  So

10     he hasn't overstated that one significantly, has he?

11        A.   No.  Because there was only one 120-millimetre mortar at the

12     time.  We only used such shells in absolute necessity.  If we had to

13     target a very precise military target when we were certain we wouldn't

14     miss.  Plus, it was costly ammunition.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I'd ask that this document be marked

16     for identification.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31450 receives number P6828,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you're seeking it to be marked for --

21             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Not to be admitted.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in the Chamber 's hands as how best to proceed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know what you want to do with it

25     later.

Page 26961

 1             MR. TRALDI:  We would certainly -- we certainly will seek to have

 2     it admit at some point during the Defence case but we can use it again

 3     with another witness regarding the numbers.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Why not tender it now right away?

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to tender it now, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No, I'm -- if it is about the discussion we

 8     had last week with Mr. Ivetic about knowledge of the witness of events,

 9     et cetera, it again directly relates to what you asked the witness.  The

10     witness has given some evidence about it.  And as I said last week, when

11     I ever used in this context the word bar table it would be wrong.  It is

12     documentary evidence directly linked to evidence the witness has given.

13     In this case, he has told us his knowledge about the way in which such

14     numbers are presented.

15             MR. TRALDI:  We'll tender the document, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC:  We do not object to this document.  Only I would have

18     one intervention regarding the transcript and it's in regard of this

19     document.  So we do not object to it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar, you have given the -- let me

21     see.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Number is 6828, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The document is admitted into evidence.

24             Mr. Lukic, you wanted to add something.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, on page 13, line 5.

Page 26962

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It says "absolute necessity."

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  And the witness said and I

 5     quote [Overlapping speakers] ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We could ask him to repeat what he said, which is

 7     always -- -

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We can check audio.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no, no.  You said there was only one

10     120-millimetre mortars at the time and you used such shells only under

11     what circumstances?  Could you repeat what you said that you used such

12     shells only in ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had one mortar and we seldom

14     fired from it.  Only in crucial moments when a target was bigger in size

15     and needed to be dealt with, then we used the 120-millimetre pieces.  I

16     do repeat we used it seldom.

17             MR. LUKIC:  If you want me --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps we have first now given the witness an

19     opportunity to repeat what he said but apparently you have a different

20     recollection, Mr. --

21             MR. LUKIC:  He said [B/C/S spoken] and it's really a military

22     term.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We now heard you speaking B/C/S in English.  Could

24     we -- could you slowly repeat what you just said so that we receive

25     translation.

Page 26963

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Decisive defence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you use the words "decisive defence" in

 3     this context?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If we were under attack.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It's your -- you have used those words that's the

 6     only thing I wanted to verify.

 7             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Sir, turning to another set of operations - and I am done with

10     this document now - you mention in paragraph 32 of your statement, now

11     Exhibit D691, attacks on the villages of Kozadre, and Kramer Selo and you

12     say that:

13             "The Serbs asked them to surrender their weapons or else the

14     villages from which weapons were fired would become military targets.

15     This is what happened."

16             Now, those villages were both majority Muslim; right?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   Kozadre was just to the west of Gucevo where your company was

19     based; right?

20        A.   Yes, precisely.

21        Q.   And you co-ordinated the artillery on the attack on those

22     villages; right?

23        A.   I did.  We only used 82-millimetre mortars.

24        Q.   Your view at the time was if there's fire coming from a village

25     it's not a village anymore.  It's a military target; right?

Page 26964

 1        A.   It would be a legitimate military target, yes.

 2        Q.   Now, in paragraph 26 of your statement, you say that after

 3     operations in Rogatica began, Serbs moved with their families to the

 4     suburbs and Muslims moved out in the direction of Sarajevo, Gorazde, and

 5     some Muslim areas of Rogatica.  Now, in these villages, Muslims, in fact,

 6     fled from the shells your brigade fired and were in such a hurry to

 7     escape that they left behind wounded children, didn't they?

 8        A.   If I may, the Muslims started leaving Rogatica right after the

 9     police force was split up before the war.  Serbs left too because both

10     felt insecure.  Serbs went to those parts of the city where Serbs were in

11     the majority or to their native villages.  The Muslims, I assure you went

12     to Sarajevo before the war broke out.  There was a large group which left

13     lawfully before that.  Another group went for Gorazde.

14        Q.   I'm asking you specifically about the Muslims in these village,

15     Kozadre and Kramer Selo.  They fled from these attacks in a column and in

16     such a hurry that they left behind wounded children, didn't they?

17        A.   I know what you're trying to ask but that's not the case.  In

18     Kozadre there were no refugee Muslims from Rogatica and other villages.

19     Only domicile Muslims, local Muslims.  When --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly slow down and repeat

21     his answer.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness --

23             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you slow down and repeat your answer.  If

25     would you please resume from, "In Kozadre there were no refugee Muslims

Page 26965

 1     from Rogatica and other villages.  Only ...,"  and could you resume from

 2     there.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the inhabitants of Kozadre

 4     village.  In Borovsko some of the population was from Rakitnica which is

 5     neighbouring village, and when those columns of refugees from Rakitnica

 6     were withdrawing, they left behind three wounded children.  On my orders,

 7     the soldiers brought them in to the out-patient clinic.  They were taken

 8     to Rogatica as well where their wounds were treated.  Then they were sent

 9     to the Sokolac military hospital in Podromanija.  They were treated

10     there, and handed back to their families once they were fully recovered.

11     I know that for a fact.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Now your information was those children were wounded by shrapnel

14     during the attack; right?

15        A.   Yes.  But no one targeted children.  We were trying to target

16     their fighters who were occupying a military target.

17        Q.   So to go back to my original question.  This column of refugees

18     you've described, they were fleeing this attack and they were fleeing in

19     such a hurry that they left behind wounded children, weren't they?

20        A.   I wouldn't agree.  They didn't flee.  They were simply

21     withdrawing under fire.  They were using infantry weapons.  They were

22     accompanied by the column of people as well as the armed personnel who

23     were withdrawing under fire.  They returned fire as well.  The artillery

24     was using mortars and we couldn't see the column.  That is why the

25     children became wounded by shrapnel but spread.  But, as I said, we

Page 26966

 1     treated them, recovered them, and handed them back to their families.

 2        Q.   Now, your brigade also incorporated --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask some --

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Of course.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  A few more questions about this.

 6             First of all, you said they didn't flee.  If there is mortar fire

 7     to your village, and women and children are leaving, would you not call

 8     that fleeing?  Is there any -- because the common understanding of the

 9     word "fleeing" is trying to get away from a place which is not safe for

10     you.  Therefore, I have some difficulties in understanding the way in

11     which you describe what happened and, at the same time, saying that they

12     were not fleeing.

13             Do you have an explanation for that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The unit of the Muslim army

15     which opened fire from the village, when responded to by our side, they

16     retreated.  They withdrew.  And with them, as I see now, went the

17     civilians.  So it wasn't fleeing per se.  But it was a combat procedure.

18     I'm retreat, returning fire, in order to get out of a certain territory.

19     That is the meaning of what I was trying to say.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We -- we understand that that's your

21     understanding of what "fleeing" means also for women and children.

22             Then you said the armed personnel were withdrawing under fire.

23     And you said:  "The artillery was using mortars and we couldn't see the

24     column."

25             You were talking about your artillery, isn't it?

Page 26967

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And you fired those artillery assets without being

 3     able to see the column.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely.  We used a particular

 5     sector from which we opened fire.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you couldn't see what you -- you had no --

 7     no people in front observing where the mortars landed?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that is correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were aware that women and children were

10     still accompanying, as you said, the military personnel that were

11     withdrawing?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I know.  I didn't know it at

13     the time.  We were simply opening fire and there was a legitimate

14     military target.  I was plotting co-ordinates based on the fire we were

15     receiving from that sector.  I tried to match those co-ordinates with our

16     artillery fire.  I didn't see who was in the column, and I learned only

17     later what I did.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I think the witness said -- you can

21     check page 19.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, page 19.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Line 20.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Line 20.  The --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe he could remove his headphones.  He does not

Page 26968

 1     speak any English.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't speak English, Mr. Ujic?  You do not speak

 3     English or understand English?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 5             JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... could you take

 6     us -- off your earphones for a second.

 7             Mr. Lukic.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  In line 19, I heard that the witness said:  We were

 9     simply opening fire at, not that we were simply opening fire.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I understood --

11             MR. LUKIC:  And that's why he said there was a legitimate

12     military target.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I -- I --

14             MR. LUKIC:  If you can clarify, Your Honour, with the witness.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I understood this as being firing at where the

16     witness knew was a military target, which, a legitimate military target

17     which implicitly says that what we were firing at.  That's my

18     understanding of the language.  And I think --

19             MR. LUKIC:  He wanted to say that the fire was opening in their

20     direction.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, let me then see.  Okay.  That's at least not

22     what was translated.  Let me see.

23             I did understand -- but again I'm checking with the parties and

24     with my colleagues.  I did understand that he considered the firing from

25     the opposite side to create a situation where there was a legitimate

Page 26969

 1     military target to fire at.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  That's how we understood, Your Honour, and that's

 3     what is -- what he said.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So everyone understands that.  So apart from

 5     whether this is legally sound or not is a different matter as everyone

 6     will certainly understand.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Right.  Just to clarify, and perhaps I'm confused,

 8     it says in the subsequent sentence on the transcript, "I was plotting

 9     co-ordinates based on the fire we were receiving from that sector," and

10     I'm just inquiring whether Mr. Lukic is suggesting anything different.

11     I'd understood that to be the witness's explain.

12             MR. LUKIC:  If is it clear, then we do not want to propose

13     anything else.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- I'll nevertheless try to -- yes.

15             Can I ask you a few questions about your plotting the

16     co-ordinates.  You said you were plotting the co-ordinates based on the

17     fire you were receiving from that sector.

18             Was that co-ordinates on a road?  Was that co-ordinates on a

19     specific position and fire is to be understood how?  Was that mortar

20     fire?  Was that small-arms fire?  Was that rifle fire?  Could you tell us

21     a little bit more in detail what you observed and how you plotted those

22     co-ordinates.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to.  As the commander

24     of the unit, I had a topographic map with me, a pair of binoculars and

25     since I am an artillery man by military speciality I could use the map to

Page 26970

 1     plot the co-ordinates based on what I observed with my binoculars.  I

 2     used the three co-ordinates in order to provide sufficient firing

 3     elements to the artillery, and I could issue a command to target that

 4     particular location.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you told us that you couldn't see the column.

 6     What you did then see with your binoculars that allowed you to -- to plot

 7     those co-ordinates on your military map?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the binoculars, I could see

 9     where the fire was coming from.  They even used 62-millimetre mortars to

10     launch shells in our direction and then I used binoculars to locate their

11     positions of firing.  I then used that as our target for the

12     counter-attack.  However, we truly could not see any column moving there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I still have some difficulties in understanding how

14     a withdrawing column with women and children would use mortars on their

15     move-out and what you meant by a counter-attack.

16             Could you -- I mean, I see a column, I do understand the column

17     moving out, withdrawing, together with women and children.  Would they

18     use mortars, stop for a while, install the mortar, and then fire those

19     mortars, and then take them up again and then move further?  Is that how

20     we have to understand your testimony?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a 60-millimetre mortar

22     is a small one.  It's an anti-infantry weapon.  And a soldier can carry

23     it and can fire it basically moving.  All it needs is to be placed on the

24     ground, fired and then it can be moved again.  It doesn't have a stand

25     that needs to be dug in.  It's an infantry weapon that one carries on

Page 26971

 1     one's back as a rifle almost.  And that's how shells can be fired.  That

 2     is what I could see through my binoculars.  Wherever they tried to fire

 3     those, we targeted that location.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So you could see them firing through your

 5     binoculars?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  There was a plume of smoke

 7     and the place where the flash would occur.  That marked the place where

 8     the shell was fired from.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you see the flash, then you must have a view

10     more or less on the people who are manning that, because the flash

11     doesn't go up very high in the air.  It's just at the mouth of the tube,

12     isn't it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.  However,

14     only two men are in the crew, and the column that was withdrawing was not

15     close to the firing position.  It was perhaps in a valley or in a

16     depression withdrawing.  Those who fired, however, were visible to me.  I

17     could see them through my binoculars firing at our positions.

18             So, to repeat, no one intended to target the column.  That was

19     the least or --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The last thing we

21     wanted to do.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But if people in the column are hit by the shrapnel,

23     they must have been pretty close to your target, isn't it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably if they were hit by

25     shrapnel they must have been close.  But I suppose, I do not claim I

Page 26972

 1     suppose, that they were on a lower ground and then a piece of shrapnel

 2     wounded the children, so they must have been within 50 to 100 [Realtime

 3     transcript read in error "1.000"] metres of the landing the shell.

 4     That's how the children became wounded by shrapnel.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  So you saw those using mortars and you didn't see

 6     the people in a column 50 or 100 metres away from that because ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I claim responsibly that the

 8     answer is no.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

10             Mr. Traldi.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a few questions also.

12             Sir, this column that was withdrawing, you say it was withdrawing

13     not fleeing, do you know where it finally ended?  Where they went to?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose they went in the

15     direction of Vragolovi village, where a large group of refugee assembled,

16     and from there on to Gorazde.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the last

18     sentence the witness said.  Could he please repeat.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Previous translation continues] ... suppose.  You

20     don't know for a fact.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  I don't know.  I suppose because

22     they could retreat there.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You said a little earlier that you picked up these

24     children who were wounded, got them dressed up, and when they recovered

25     you handed them over to their people.  You remember saying so?  Where did

Page 26973

 1     you hand them over if you didn't know where the people went to?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I ordered that the

 3     children be taken away because they were in inaccessible terrain.  The

 4     Serb soldiers brought them in their arms to the ambulance where they

 5     were -- when they were taken to Rogatica.  They were administered first

 6     aid and then sent to the hospital in Sokolac.  They were treated there,

 7     and in Sokolac they were handed back to their families who by that time

 8     had been in Sarajevo.  We allowed for the families to come to pick up the

 9     children.  In any case, the children were fully treated.  That is what I

10     know.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How long were they treated for, these children?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really wouldn't know precisely.

13     They suffered minor injuries in their legs.  There were more like

14     scratches or through wounds, so, in any case, small-intensity wounds.

15     Perhaps they were treated for a fortnight, up to a month, at the most.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you mentioned that this column went in some

17     direction.  Now you're saying that they were handed over to the parent in

18     Sarajevo.  I'm not quite sure where you say these children were handed

19     over.  Who were their parents?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I recall, it was the

21     Pasic family from the village of Rakitnica.  They had two children and

22     there was a grandmother.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The mother said that the

24     father was in Sarajevo.  Could the witness kindly repeat the rest.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're being asked to repeat the rest.  You're

Page 26974

 1     speaking a little too fast for interpreters.  Can you slow down and

 2     repeat what you just said.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So, the two children and their

 4     mother were wounded.  I repeat, lightly wounded.  When they were

 5     recovered, the mother said that her husband was in Sarajevo and that they

 6     were going to go to Sarajevo.  According to the information I had, they

 7     were placed in a vehicle, transported safely close to Sarajevo, where the

 8     husband took them over.  That's what I know.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So the children when they were taken for

10     treatment, they were taken together with their mother, who was also

11     injured.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely so.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a clarification for the record.  You told us

15     about how the children were wounded by shrapnel and you said they have

16     must have been within 50 to 100 metres of the landing of the shell; is

17     that correct?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, correct.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was recorded 50 to 1.000 metres and this is

20     now a correction for the record.  Thank you very much.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fifty to 100.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I was a bit confused by two of your answers.

23             Earlier you said that the children were taken to Rogatica, then

24     they were sent to the hospital in Sokolac, and then you said they were

25     treated and in Sokolac they were handed back to their families who, by

Page 26975

 1     that time, had been in Sarajevo.

 2             But I now understand that the mother, at least, was part of the

 3     family as well, I would say, was with the children already.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  And she said that she

 5     wished to go to Sarajevo for them all where her husband was, and under

 6     escort, they were taken from Sokolac and then handed over to the other

 7     side.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Was the column still withdrawing when you found

 9     these children?  Or was combat over by then?  That's not a good question,

10     I think.

11             Was the column still withdrawing?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the 2nd of August, 1992,

13     in the evening hours.  It was summer time, could have been at around 2100

14     hours or 2130.  When I heard that there were children wounded, I told

15     them to carry them out.  And, after that I didn't get any further

16     information as to where the column went and which route it took.  It was

17     the early -- end of a combat day that was almost over.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Almost or completely?  Was there any further combat?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in that area.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Mr. Traldi, these were a lot of questions after you asked about

22     children left behind.  It's time for a break.  The Chamber is not

23     stealing any from you.  As you know, it is always carefully recorded how

24     much time we take and, therefore, there's still quite some time left for

25     you.

Page 26976

 1             Witness, we would like to see you back this 20 minutes.  We take

 2     a break.  You may follow the usher.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Sir, I have a few questions to follow up regarding the attack we

11     just discussed.

12             First:  What type of mortars was your brigade using during that

13     attack?

14        A.   62-millimetre mortars.

15        Q.   You mentioned the village of Rakitnica today, and in your

16     statement you mention Kozadre -- sorry, Kozadre and Kramer Selo.  Was

17     Rakitnica also part of that attack?

18        A.   Listen --

19             MR. LUKIC:  A small intervention.  I think that page 28, line 11,

20     should be clarified.  I think it's --

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'll re-ask the question if that suits my friend.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so and see whether any objections then

23     remain.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Sir, just to re-ask, during this attack, what type of mortars did

Page 26977

 1     your brigade use?

 2        A.   I repeat, during the attack, our brigade used solely

 3     82-millimetre mortars.

 4        Q.   You mentioned the village of Rakitnica today, and in your

 5     statement you mentioned Kozadre and Kramer Selo.  Rakitnica village was

 6     also attacked as part of the same attack; right?

 7        A.   No.  Rakitnica was dealt with by the Sokolac TO I believe one day

 8     before we dealt with Kozadre.

 9             As for Kramer Selo, which is right opposite the road on the road

10     to Sarajevo, this was dealt with by Socice TO.  Therefore, I did not take

11     the route, the road with my unit to Kramer Selo but instead --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the road that

13     he mentioned last.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Could you repeat the road you mentioned last, sir.

16        A.   So, viewing at the road Sarajevo-Rogatica, Kozadre village is on

17     the right-hand side of the road.  Opposite, on the left-hand side of the

18     road, is Kramer village which was dealt with by Socice TO, whereas

19     Rakitnica was dealt with by Sokolac TO because it is closer to Sokolac.

20     The unit and I only had the task to do Kozadre and ...

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters didn't understand the last

22     name that the witness pronounced.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, you said the unit and you only had the task to do Kozadre

25     and one other place.  Can you very slowly repeat the name of that other

Page 26978

 1     place?

 2        A.   Borovsko, village of Borovsko.

 3        Q.   And Borovsko and Rakitnica, those were both also Muslim villages;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Both Rakitnica and Borovsko were mixed villages.  Albeit the

 6     majority was Muslim but there were Serb families as well in both

 7     villages.

 8        Q.   All right.  And you mentioned the Sokolac TO.  These operations,

 9     I believe you said, were conducted in August 1992; right?

10        A.   Yes, correct.  I believe that it was the 1st of August when the

11     TO Sokolac did Rakitnica because territorial-wise, it wedges into the

12     territory of Sokolac municipality and that is why they dealt with these

13     villages instead of us.  We never touched Rogatica.

14        Q.   So my specific question was by August 1992, the Sokolac TO, like

15     the Rogatica Serb TO, had been transformed and was under the command of

16     the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps; right?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   Now, when the attack began, it was directed at the villages, not

19     at a column; right?

20        A.   The attack was directed at enemies firing groups with the aim to

21     unblocking the Rogatica-Sarajevo road, since these two villages, Kramer

22     Selo and Rakitnica suffered check-points where there were casualties.

23     There were even people killed.  Kozadre, on the right-hand side of the

24     road, and Rakitnica, on the left-hand side, erected barriers and

25     check-points on the road where we suffered losses.

Page 26979

 1        Q.   Sir, this material is also in your statement.  Let me try and ask

 2     the question in a different way.

 3             The column fled after the attack; right?  The attack was

 4     initially directed at the villages from which you say the fire was

 5     coming; correct?

 6        A.   I can never agree with that because that was never our aim, that

 7     is to say, to target civilian columns, but exclusively enemy firing

 8     groups.

 9        Q.   I'm not asking about the moment about your aim; I'm asking at the

10     moment:  The column fled after the attack; right?  The attack was not

11     initially directed at the column.

12        A.   Well, as you put it, it seems that that is right.  But there was

13     no fire opened at the column.  This was not a standard, classic column.

14     It was just a withdrawal.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're not listening carefully to the

16     question.  What Mr. Traldi wants to know is whether the column only

17     started after you had fired at the village.  Is that so?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can give you the following

19     answer:  A village wasn't shelled.  It was not attacked.  Only the

20     location of the outgoing fire.  If it was in the village, then the

21     village became the target.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the column only started after you had

23     fired at targets in the village.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We launched an infantry attack.  If

25     there was fire coming from the village, or mortar fire, that became a

Page 26980

 1     legitimate target which we neutralised.  We fired at it --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, apparently you either do understand my

 3     question or you don't want to understand my question and were more

 4     focussed on telling us what you consider important.

 5             You may proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Sir, I'm going to turn to a different topic now.

 8             Your brigade also incorporated some volunteers from Serbia who

 9     said they were Arkan's Men, Jovic's Men, and Seselj's Men; right?

10        A.   Yes, right.

11        Q.   And they conducted some of the urban warfare during your

12     operations; right?

13        A.   Yes, correct.

14        Q.   And they wanted to conduct urban warfare because they thought

15     there was more wealth in town because their motive was looting; right?

16        A.   Yes.  And I can say that with full responsibility.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 31328 be brought to the screen.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  31 ...

19             MR. TRALDI:  31328.

20        Q.   This, sir, is an commendation to your brigade and the 2nd

21     Romanija Brigade, dated the 26th of December, 1992, and apparently signed

22     by General Galic.  We read here:

23             "The great and immeasurable contribution of your fighters and

24     units is embedded in the Army of Republika Srpska's magnificent successes

25     in 1992."

Page 26981

 1             This reflects the SRK's approval of your brigade's activities in

 2     1992; right?

 3        A.   Yes, but that was a greeting document, let's say, for the new

 4     year and for Christmas.

 5        Q.   Specifically, it was a greeting that reflected their approval of

 6     your activities in 1992; right?

 7        A.   Yeah.  Military ones.  That's right.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31328 receives number P6829,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The document is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have 65 ter 31331.

14        Q.   As it comes up, sir, you state in paragraph 35 of your statement

15     that:

16             "The Muslim villages of Satorovici, Okruglo, Tmorni Do, and Osovo

17     which did not want conflicts and had surrendered their weapons enjoyed

18     full protection."

19             So I'm directing your attention now to the fourth paragraph of

20     this document, at the bottom of the page in the B/C/S.  It refers to a

21     man named Sejdalija Mirvic, and the article reads:

22             "His village of Satorovici near Rogatica was entirely emptied of

23     its remaining Muslims today.  The Serbian authorities came to each" - and

24     here I think we need to turn to the next page in the B/C/S - "to each

25     Muslim household and told the families to prepare to leave.  Then they

Page 26982

 1     were bundled on buses to Sarajevo."

 2             Now, that's the truth, isn't it, that the Muslims of Satorovici

 3     were sent to Sarajevo in 1994; right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's what it reads.  In that period, I was the chief of

 5     defence in Rogatica.  I was involved in things relating to defence with

 6     the army, and I cannot tell you anything more about this because I didn't

 7     know anything about it at the time.  If they left, I believe that was

 8     true, since somebody wrote about it.

 9        Q.   Sir, this is published in the "New York Times" several thousand

10     miles away from Rogatica.  I put it to you that it's not credible that

11     the readers of the "New York Times" in 1994 were aware that the Muslims

12     of Satorovici were sent to Sarajevo and that you've never heard of it

13     before today.  Do you have any comment on that?

14        A.   I didn't say that I heard it today for the first time.  I had

15     heard but I don't know how many of them left and who organised the

16     transportation.  I was involved in completely different tasks.  And it

17     didn't concern me at the time in that aspect.  I know what had happened

18     before that.

19        Q.   When did you hear that they'd been sent to Sarajevo in 1994?

20        A.   Well, officially -- officially -- is there a problem?

21             Officially, I never received any document to that effect that --

22     somebody would inform me in writing.  I just heard it in conversations

23     orally.  And that would be towards the end of that year, but only sketchy

24     details.  I cannot tell you a lot about it because I was not privy to

25     this.  Therefore, I cannot contribute anything.  But what happened,

Page 26983

 1     happened.  I am not refuting that.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  According to this paragraph 35 in your statement,

 3     you say that these people enjoyed full protection.  Who gave them the

 4     protection?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these villages had

 6     been loyal to the authorities of Republika Srpska.  As I said earlier --

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you.  Who provided them protection?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the civilian authorities, as

 9     well as military structures.  They provided protection from both their

10     extremists and Serbian extremists as well.  So we had both the civilian

11     and the military component participating in the protection.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Civilian and military components of which

13     ethnicity?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, power was exclusively

15     in the hands of the Serbs, and they protected this village as they did

16     any other village, irrespective of whether they were Muslim or Serbs.

17     They just had to be loyal.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.  But now if the military and

19     civilian authorities of the Serb people provided them with protection,

20     and you don't dispute what is written in this document, what happened

21     that they got emptied of this and taken to Sarajevo when you were

22     protecting them?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is beyond any doubt that the

24     fact is that we protected them.  However, what happened then, as I sit

25     here today, I cannot tell you.

Page 26984

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, but you're not answering my question.  My

 2     question is:  These people were under the Serbian military and civilian

 3     protection.  What happened that they got bundled into buses to Sarajevo

 4     when they were under your protection?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was a member of the

 6     brigade, they were under protection.  Upon my departure and taking up a

 7     new post, I wasn't in the brigade any longer, and the civilian

 8     authorities, the president of the municipality, and the chairman of

 9     executive committee took care of these people.  Therefore, I cannot tell

10     you what happened.  I can see that something happened, but what triggered

11     that and why, I really cannot answer that.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- while you were head of the brigade, you

15     provided them with protection.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes.  Not only in terms

17     of security and safety, but also the provision of food.  I personally

18     took medicine to General Asim Hodzic, who lived in the area.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

20             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I would tender this document.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31331 receives number P6830,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 26985

 1        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to some questions about persons detained

 2     in Rogatica municipality.  First, Mehmed Agic.  You visited him when he

 3     was detained; right?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   Now, he was an important prisoner; right?

 6        A.   Well, he was the commander of the joint TO before the war.  After

 7     the division of power, he continued to be the commander of the Muslim TO,

 8     and, as such, he was a captive.  He was a neighbour of mine in the

 9     apartment complex, and as soon as I learned that he was in detention, I

10     went to see him.

11        Q.   Sir, I think you've answered a different question.  I hadn't at

12     the moment asked about your relationship with Mr. Agic.  All I'd asked

13     was:  He was an important prisoner; right?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Can you perhaps say that again a little bit more slowly for the

17     sake of the interpreters.

18        A.   I repeat:  Absolutely.  Mehmed Agic, by virtue of his office, was

19     a very important prisoner.

20        Q.   As such, his capture was reported to your brigade's superior

21     command, the SRK corps command; right?

22        A.   It wasn't me who informed the command but, rather, I received

23     information over the radio that he had been captured.  Probably the

24     commander used his own channels in order to pass on this information,

25     that this person is in our custody.

Page 26986

 1             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd refer the Chamber to Exhibit P4387.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Agic was captured along with several other people and

 3     brought to the Sladara malt house by Mr. Ljubinac; right?

 4        A.   I suppose that since at the time he was driving an APC, he used

 5     that vehicle to the area of imprisonment and he took him to the Slad

 6     factory.  I know that I saw him there a couple of times while he was in

 7     Rogatica.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31352.

 9        Q.   And while it comes up, did Rajko Kusic also go to the Sladara

10     factory to see Mr. Agic?

11        A.   I have to tell you that since I was closer to the Slad factory, I

12     was the first to arrive there and I saw Meho Agic there.  Some 15 minutes

13     later, Rajko Kusic came as well because he had received this information.

14     So for a while we were together with Meho, and then Rajko Kusic stayed

15     behind while I left the room.

16             MR. TRALDI:  This is Mr. Agic's statement which he swore was

17     truthful under oath.  If we could turn to the bottom of page 5 in English

18     and 11 in the B/C/S, and I think if we could -- the one on the right is

19     now correct.

20        Q.   Now, at the bottom of the page, he mentions that you and

21     Mr. Kusic visited, and we see that discussed in the bottom few lines.

22             Turning to the next page in both languages, just a few lines from

23     the top, he describes a conversation and then it says:

24             "Soon afterwards Kusic, Ilic, and two or three of their henchmen

25     went to the room opposite us and started beating Milic and two members of

Page 26987

 1     the Hodzic family who had been captured with him."

 2             Now, to be fair, I'll say that he indicates he was blindfolded at

 3     the time.  So my question is:  Is he correct that you were still there

 4     when those persons were beaten?

 5        A.   I can claim with full responsible before this Court, in view of

 6     my solemn declaration, that I went to see Mr. Agic as a neighbour and a

 7     friend.  While he was lying with blindfold, I said, Good morning,

 8     neighbour.  Would you like a cigarette?  And he said, Gladly, Mile, and

 9     he lit a cigarette.

10             Now, what is written here is something that I'm not familiar with

11     that, because when the commander came, I left the room, and I don't know

12     if something happened or not.  While I was there, he wasn't touched at

13     all.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It doesn't say he was touched.  He says people in

15     the opposite room were beaten.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat:  While I was there,

17     nobody, really nobody, was beaten or beaten up.  On the contrary, there

18     were talks but I remained for a short period of time.  After I had left,

19     I don't know.  I cannot tell you what happened, if anything.  I didn't

20     hear anything and I don't know if anything happened at all.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Unless the Chamber --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Your Honour.  Unless the Chamber has

24     additional questions, I would turn now to the Vlahovic school.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I have one additional question but I'm rather

Page 26988

 1     addressing you.  You said, in all fairness, that person was blindfolded.

 2     Where do I read that he was blindfolded when he was transported to a

 3     different location?  I do not read that at that point in time when he was

 4     visited.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  No --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But when I'm wrong --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  My understanding was it had been on the previous

 8     page.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That may --

10             MR. TRALDI:  That's my recollection, Mr. President, towards the

11     bottom.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If you wait for a second -- please move on and I'll

13     have a look at the relevant page.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   So, sir, turning now to Vlahovic school.  You suggest in your

16     statement and in your testimony last week that people went to the school

17     voluntarily.  I have several questions about this.

18             First, on at least one occasion, you yourself saw armed soldiers

19     escorting people to the school; right?

20        A.   Yes, I did state that.  It concerned the part of town called

21     Gracanica.  They had to be taken through the part of town that had not

22     been liberated where there were armed Muslims.  They were some placed

23     under escort by soldiers for their protection.  It was a smaller group of

24     perhaps some 15 of them.

25        Q.   And you were aware that your subordinate, Mr. Ljubinac, has been

Page 26989

 1     conflicted of crimes against humanity in Bosnia for, among other things,

 2     participating in the forcible transfer of women, children and adult men

 3     to the Vlahovic school; right?

 4        A.   It was proven in one of the judgements by the BiH court and I

 5     will not comment upon it.  Court decisions are not something to be

 6     commented upon but obeyed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Now can we have Exhibit P6803.  As it comes up, this

 8     will be a regular report from the Rogatica Brigade to the SRK command

 9     dated the 15th of June, 1992.

10        Q.   Directing your attention to the first paragraph, your brigade

11     reports:

12             "There was no significant enemy activity in the brigade's zone of

13     responsibility.  Large numbers of Muslims, mostly women and children, are

14     arriving in the town every day.  The people are being moved into the

15     premises of the secondary school centre."

16             Now, I have a couple of questions for you about this language and

17     I note it is signed for Mr. Kusic.

18             First, you testified last week that people of various ethnicities

19     were held in the Vlahovic school - Muslims, Serbs, Croats.  Mr. Kusic is

20     only mentioning Muslims, isn't he?

21        A.   Yes, that is what he says.  However, I claim before this Court

22     because I went to the school once and I saw what I saw, that there were

23     Serbs, Croats and people from mixed marriages, entire families that were

24     accommodated there.  They were there so as not to lose their lives in the

25     conflict with the other side.  That was the basic reason why it was set

Page 26990

 1     up.

 2        Q.   If there was no significant enemy activity in the brigade's area

 3     of responsibility, why would they have feared losing their lives?

 4        A.   Well, simply put, at the beginning of the war, people on both

 5     sides who were in town felt insecure because one could never know whether

 6     there would be a knock on the door and someone would be killed.  So

 7     people sought refuge in safe places, safe shelters.  The Veljko Vlahovic

 8     school was one such place in Rogatica at the beginning.

 9        Q.   You have referred to the Vlahovic school again now as a safe

10     place and a safe shelter, as you did last week.  In fact, you know

11     crimes, including sex crimes, were committed against the people there,

12     don't you?

13        A.   Unfortunately -- well, I was actually talking about the period at

14     the beginning when it was envisaged as a collection centre.  At the time

15     it was truly a safe place for all those who felt insecure to stay in

16     their own homes.

17             Now, as for what happened later, it seems things did happen as I

18     could see in judgements and statements, and that that is the extent of

19     what I know about it.

20        Q.   At the moment I'm not asking about judgements and statements.

21     I'm inquiring about your evidence in paragraph 29 of your statement,

22     D691, that you heard that police who guarded the Vlahovic school had

23     raped women who were detained there, that you demanded that the

24     perpetrators be punished, and that you were told, "that this was a war,

25     that people's lives mean nothing, and that I should not meddle in their

Page 26991

 1     business."

 2             So for the moment I have only one focussed question for you about

 3     this:  Approximately when did you first receive this information?  What

 4     month and what year?

 5        A.   In any case, it was in 1992.  It could have been, I think, late

 6     July or early August.  But most likely in late July.  I went to the

 7     school personally to visit the people who were up there.  I distributed

 8     some cigarettes, spoke to them.  And then one of the ladies who was

 9     present there confided in me because she had known me before the war, and

10     she told me some things.

11             When I was leaving the secondary school building, I came upon the

12     police station commander.  I directed his attention to it and he said

13     that I shouldn't meddle in their affairs, and that it was police

14     business, whereas I was with the army.  He also said that human lives are

15     worth less than vegetables these days and that I shouldn't get involved

16     for fear of being liquidated.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly repeat the very end of

18     his answer.  Thank you.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Could you repeat what you said after "for fear of being

21     liquidated."

22        A.   For fear of being liquidated.  It was said that human lives were

23     worth nothing, and I was afraid to be killed myself.  That is why I never

24     went back to the school and I did not get involved in any things that had

25     to do with the police.  They had their own command system.  They received

Page 26992

 1     different orders.  And from that moment on, I withdrew.  I no longer went

 2     to the school.

 3        Q.   What was the name of the police station commander who told you

 4     that?

 5        A.   Mladen Vasiljevic was his name.

 6        Q.   Now, you didn't mention this incident in your Karadzic evidence,

 7     your evidence in the Karadzic case here, and you testified in the

 8     Paunovic case in Bosnia that you were told not to come back to the

 9     Vlahovic school because you were -- you had given a detainee cigarettes.

10     When did you recall that you were told not to meddle in the rapes that

11     had been committed there?

12        A.   I think -- well, I don't think I was asked in the Karadzic case,

13     but I believe it was contained in the statement in that case, unless

14     there was an oversight.

15             So sometime in late July, I was told those words.  I claim it was

16     the case.  And perhaps it slipped through the cracks in that previous

17     statement, but it did resurface again before the BiH court and now, of

18     course.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to turn now to Rasadnik and if the

20     Prosecution could please have 65 ter 26044.

21        Q.   As it comes up, approximately how far was Rasadnik from the

22     Sladara building, which was the Crisis Staff headquarters?

23        A.   Yes, of the Crisis Staff.  The brigade command was never at

24     Sladar.  As we can see on the map, if we go to the very left side of the

25     screen, we see the Rasadnik facility.  To the right and below is the malt

Page 26993

 1     factory or Sladar.  So maybe it's 3 to 400 metres, the distance between

 2     the two facilities, that is.

 3        Q.   Sir, I'm going ask the usher to assist, please, and I'm going to

 4     ask you to make three markings on this image and to wait, please, for my

 5     instructions before making each of the three markings.

 6             So, first, I'd ask that you circle the Sladara building.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And next to it, write a "KS" for Krizni Stab.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   And, sorry, before you mark again, what's the building to the

11     left of the circle that you've just drawn?  Immediately to the left.

12        A.   It's a silo of the commodity's reserve agency which is still in

13     operation today.  Is that what you mean?

14        Q.   The silo was what I was referring to, yes.  Please don't mark

15     that.  I'll ask you now to circle the area of Rasadnik.

16        A.   Yes, very well.

17        Q.   And perhaps it would assist if I --

18        A.   Very well.  There's no need.  I worked there for years.

19        Q.   And make an "R," mark an "R."

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   And at the bottom, if you could mark your initials and today's

22     date, please.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   In the white area at the very bottom.

25        A.   What is the date today?

Page 26994

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The 20th, if the parties would agree on that.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   I think it's the 20th of October, 2014.

 4        A.   I'm not very good with dates.  So October the 20th.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

 6     be asked to move away from the microphone.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   And just your initials -- oh, you've marked your initials, I see,

 9     next to the R.

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. TRALDI:  If we can agree that that is sufficient, I'd tender

12     the image 65 ter 26044 as marked by the witness.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The third marking?

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             MR. TRALDI:  If it is clear, we can erase the initials.  I'm in

17     the Chamber's hands, of course.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's not the practice in this Chamber that

19     always markings have to be made -- have to be accompanied by initials and

20     a date, because by their admission and by being stored in the e-court,

21     that's enough.  But I do understand that the witness gave his initials

22     just below the "R" for "Rasadnik" and that at the bottom of the page he

23     gave the name, the initials being "MU."

24             Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 26044, as marked by the witness,

Page 26995

 1     receives number P6831, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Now, you say in paragraph 31 of your statement, D691, that you

 5     went to Rasadnik on a number of occasions.  And I'm done with this image.

 6     You testified in the Karadzic case that you only dropped by on three

 7     occasions and spent half an hour there because your relative, Mirko

 8     Vujic, was one of the Serbs in military detention there.  Is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Well, a couple of times or three times, yes, I think so.

11     Precisely.

12        Q.   Now, you say in paragraph 31 again, that:

13             "I went to Rasadnik to observe its operation and no guard or

14     detainee ever mentioned to me any inhumane or brutal treatment or claimed

15     that some people were being mistreated," and so on --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down while reading.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise, Your Honour.

18        Q.   My question is:  Is it correct that your observation of the

19     functioning of the Rasadnik facility consisted of dropping by on three

20     occasions for half an hour?

21        A.   Yes, precisely.

22        Q.   You also say that some of the guards there were from the civilian

23     police and some were from the military police.  Beginning in late 1992,

24     the camp commander was Vinko Bojic; right?

25        A.   Yes, precisely.

Page 26996

 1        Q.   And he was in the Rogatica Brigade; right?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3        Q.   And you say that persons were exchanged from Rasadnik and that

 4     you have no personal involvement in those exchanges.  Your brigade was

 5     involved in those exchanges, however; right?

 6        A.   Well, the brigade did, because it was within its remit to conduct

 7     exchanges at the military level.  But if it went through the ICRC rather

 8     than the brigade, then the ICRC was in charge of such exchanges.

 9        Q.   Now, finally, I want to ask you about one specific incident

10     regarding Rasadnik.

11             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could 65 ter 31327.

12        Q.   Now, this, as it comes up, is the judgement against Drago

13     Paunovic in the Bosnian state court.  He was convicted of taking a group

14     of Muslim civilians out of Rasadnik camp, ordering their execution, and

15     directly participating in that execution, wasn't he?

16        A.   I have to correct you.  He was not one who took them out because

17     he was away from Rasadnik, maybe 15 to 20 kilometres away.  It was done

18     by another person.  That person brought them in that particular area and

19     then it happened, what happened.  And then Paunovic did what he did.

20        Q.   I think perhaps my question was unclear.  I hadn't meant

21     physically taking them out.  The person that physically transported them,

22     in fact, and has been convicted of doing so in the Bosnian state court

23     was Radisav Ljubinac; right?

24        A.   No.  Radisav Ljubinac?  Ljubinac, Radisav.

25        Q.   I think the transcript might be slightly unclear so I'm going to

Page 26997

 1     ask that again.  Radisav Ljubinac, in the Bosnian court, was convicted,

 2     among other things, of taking these people out of Rasadnik to Duljevac,

 3     right, where they he were eventually executed?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely.  Radisav Ljubinac took the people by truck to

 5     Paunovic Pero's company, and they met their end there.

 6        Q.   Now, you testified as a defence witness in the Paunovic trial;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And you're aware now that one of the people taken out who

10     survived was at the time a 15-year-old boy named Armin Bazdar; right?

11        A.   Yes, I know that.  Armin Bazdar.  Yes, I do know that.

12        Q.   Taking you back now to August 1992, you heard about this crime on

13     the same day or the following day; right?

14        A.   I said so a few days ago.  I think I heard it either in the

15     evening that same day or the next day.  In any case, I heard about it

16     quite soon afterwards.

17        Q.   You testified in the Karadzic case that you learned about this

18     through overhearing a conversation between the local Kozici unit

19     commander and someone else; right?

20        A.   Yes.  So it was the same day in the evening or the next day.  So

21     that is the only possible difference.  By that time, it was known what

22     had happened.

23        Q.   Now, you've confirmed that the Kozici unit commander was, in

24     fact, Mr. Paunovic.  Who he was talking to?

25        A.   I really don't know.  I don't remember.  I don't know whether he

Page 26998

 1     talked to someone or one of his subordinates who mentioned that

 2     information.  I don't think he was involved in saying that.  I think it

 3     must have been one of his subordinate commanders who told it to someone,

 4     but I don't know who exactly.  And that's how I learned.

 5        Q.   Well, you heard over --

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, I'm looking at the clock and I'm also

 8     looking at your time sheet at this moment.  How much time would you still

 9     think you'd need?

10             MR. TRALDI:  I would say about five minutes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then you will have five minutes and then

12     we'll take the break, and that's, then, the end of your

13     cross-examination.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.

15        Q.   So the Kozici unit commander who was making this call, what did

16     he say?

17        A.   As far as I remember, he said that our side sustained great

18     losses in the Jacen area.  It was a stronghold, an elevation facing the

19     Serb village of Borac, which had been razed to the ground and civilians

20     killed.  In an attempt to pass by the village of Borac, they encountered

21     strong fire.  And then those people were needed as a human shield, as it

22     was said at that time, and then we know what became of it.

23        Q.   What did he say about what became of it?

24        A.   First, he reported that he suffered manpower losses and that he

25     himself was wounded and that he wanted a human shield --

Page 26999

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question -- you have explained that

 2     already.  What did you -- what did he say about what became of it?

 3     Because you were rather vague.  Mr. Traldi wants to know what he said

 4     what happened then, after that.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean after the people were

 6     brought in that sector?  I'm unclear as to the question.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Let me be very specific, sir, because I have limited time.  What

 9     did this commander say specifically about the execution of these people

10     that informed you the crime had happened?

11        A.   He just said that the group had been killed.  Without specifying

12     how many, he just said that the group had been killed.  At the time, and

13     now, it struck me as unthinkable or unbelievable.  It was no one's

14     orders; it was his own initiative.  It was his order.

15        Q.   When you say "it was his order," you're referring to

16     Mr. Paunovic, one of the battalion commanders in the brigade; right?

17        A.   Yes, absolutely.

18        Q.   When you learnt this, did you keep that information to yourself?

19        A.   I did not.  From the position I was at that moment, I sent that

20     information to my superior, the secretary of the secretariat in Pale in

21     writing.  I don't know what he did to relay it to his superior.  I don't

22     have that information, and I don't know.

23        Q.   And that was Mitar Kovacevic?

24        A.   Yes, precisely.

25        Q.   And you testified in the Paunovic case that he told you that the

Page 27000

 1     army had done this; right?

 2        A.   Yes, precisely.

 3        Q.   You also told the chief of police about the massacre?

 4        A.   Yes, because our offices were in the same building but on

 5     different floors.  I simply drew his attention to this in a conversation,

 6     and he said, But it was done by the army, and I said, Yes, well, the

 7     people involved were civilians --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last sentence of

 9     his answer.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Sir, could you repeat what you said after the word "civilians."

12        A.   I said, Yes, if it was done by the army, then civilians were

13     hurt, and I am just telling you as the police commander that some

14     civilians were killed.  I don't know what he did after that.

15        Q.   Did you inform your commander, Mr. Kusic?

16        A.   He knew the same day I did.  Perhaps we learned about it the same

17     day, together.

18        Q.   And did you and he inform your superior command in the SRK?

19        A.   I suppose the commander mentioned it in his combat report, which

20     he drafted daily.  I think he did.  And if he did not, it was a fatal

21     mistake to make.

22        Q.   Now, you testified in the Karadzic case that only after some

23     investigation a few days later, you found out that Mr. Paunovic was the

24     perpetrator.  In fact, you knew the same day that it was him who had done

25     this; right?

Page 27001

 1        A.   I didn't know it was him the same day.  There was some

 2     speculation or doubt that he could be the executor.  Later on, as it

 3     turned out, after an investigation, it was established that it was he who

 4     had done it and that the initial information was correct.

 5        Q.   You also did not tell the court in his case that you knew he was

 6     the perpetrator, did you?

 7        A.   Believe me, I just answered the questions by the defence and the

 8     court.  If I was asked that, I answered.  And if a particular question

 9     was not put to me, there was no answer that I needed to provide.  Had I

10     been asked, I would have answered the same way I'm answering you now.

11        Q.   So rather than punishing your subordinate who had committed mass

12     murder, you testified on his behalf when he was finally put on trial more

13     than a decade later and did not inform the court that he was guilty;

14     right?

15        A.   Well, I wasn't asked about it.  I couldn't have punished him or

16     anyone else without a judgement.  So, as far as I was concerned, he

17     wasn't punished because I had my superior who was best placed or in

18     charge of doing that.

19        Q.   And your superior didn't punish him either, did he?

20        A.   Well, he spent a long time in treatment because he himself was

21     wounded.  However, what happened later on, I don't know because I never

22     went back to the area.  I know that shortly afterwards he left Kozici and

23     Rogatica municipality and went to an unknown location.  As far as we were

24     concerned, unknown.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

Page 27002

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.  We'll take a break.

 2             Could the witness already be escorted out of the courtroom.

 3             How much time would you need after the break, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I think a bit more than half an hour.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's quite a bit, but let's see how it

 7     develops.

 8             The last portion of the evidence, Mr. Traldi, when evaluating or

 9     assessing that evidence, it may be important for the Chamber to know what

10     the witness stated in view of a duty of a witness to tell the truth, the

11     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The witness told us that he was

12     not asked about whether Mr. Paunovic was guilty or not.  Now, even if

13     such a direct question was not put to him, it may well be that he was

14     asked questions which would require him, if telling the whole truth, to

15     bore the subject himself.  Therefore, it would be interesting, perhaps,

16     for the Chamber to know in order to be able to assess the credibility and

17     reliability of the witness's evidence, to know a bit more about what he

18     was asked about.

19             Is there any documentary evidence which would shed some light on

20     that?

21             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, we've uploaded the transcript as 65

22     ter 31449.  The transcript is only in B/C/S.  We have acquired audio in

23     both B/C/S and English, and we're happy to provide whatever would assist

24     the Chamber in evaluating the evidence, of course.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps we could ask him a few questions about

Page 27003

 1     how far away the questions that were put to him were from the question

 2     about guilt or innocence.  And I do understand that we don't have the

 3     English materials to further explore in this context.

 4             We take a break, and we resume at 25 minutes past midday.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.28 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ujic, before I give an opportunity to the

 9     Defence to re-examine you, I have one or a few questions about your

10     testimony in the case against Mr. Paunovic.

11             You said you didn't tell the court that you knew that he was the

12     perpetrator because you were not asked about it.  What were the questions

13     about when you appeared as a witness in that case?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't remember the

15     questions, but I know that in my written statement I described my

16     activities when I was president of the executive committee.  That means

17     before the war and the early days of war.  Later on, as I stated, this

18     incident happened, and I was asked, although I don't know what the

19     questions were, about my knowledge relating to that period.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you asked about your knowledge about, as you

21     call it, the incident?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably, yes.  And I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you did not -- and then did you not tell

24     them that a few days after the incident you learned that Mr. Paunovic was

25     the perpetrator or the most likely perpetrator?

Page 27004

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I wasn't asked directly, I

 2     didn't provide indirect answers.  If not, then I couldn't give any direct

 3     answers, because if they wanted to ask me that, then --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, there are two ways of asking that question.

 5     The one is:  Do you know anything about the perpetrators?  Was a question

 6     of that kind asked to you?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, as much as I would like

 8     to remember, I really cannot recall the question.  I gave the answers as

 9     I did.  You can probably have my testimony, so can you see what the

10     questions were put and the answers that I gave.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Or would you consider only the question "Was

12     Mr. Paunovic the perpetrator" a question upon which you would have had to

13     answer that, to your knowledge, he was?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I believe.  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, is that, then, the whole truth, or is

16     that -- as a witness, you're obliged to answer questions in accordance

17     with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  If someone

18     asks you without even mentioning Mr. Paunovic about possible

19     perpetrators, wouldn't you consider it to be the whole truth to tell that

20     court, if such a question was asked, also about what you meanwhile knew

21     about him possibly being a perpetrator?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes.  Absolutely.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm a bit confused about you telling us, on the one

24     hand side, that you don't remember the questions, and at the same time

25     telling us that you were not asked the question which would have

Page 27005

 1     triggered you to answer that Mr. Paunovic was, to your knowledge, the

 2     perpetrator.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But, Your Honours, if a judge asks

 4     me a question requesting a direct answer, I was therefore not given any

 5     time to expand on it.  I was expected to give a direct answer.  Whatever

 6     the chamber asked me, I provided them straightforward answers without

 7     expanding it further on because they want me to specifically answer this

 8     or that, and that what's I did.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And may I take it that they also wanted to hear from

10     you the whole truth?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, an assumption is one thing.

12     However, whether the questions were put in that way is another

13     assumption.  But, as I said, I provided answers to the best of my ability

14     and with the intention of telling the truth and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The wish of the Chamber to learn more about the

16     questioning of the witness remains.

17             I'm looking at the parties, whether a selection could be made or

18     after translations are there.  But it is a relevant issue in relation to

19     the reliability and the credibility.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Paunovic judgement available?

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it available in English.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, in both languages.  I called it up towards the

25     end of the examination and I neglected to tender it, I'm afraid.

Page 27006

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  But I do so now.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You do so now.

 4             Madam Registrar, could you please give a number?

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  May I reminded of the 65 ter number.  Is it

 6     31327?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, think it is.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  That's my recollection as well.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And Ms. Stewart, as usual, is the ultimate authority

11     and confirms that our recollections are correct.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31327 receives number P6832, Your

13     Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             Could we have that document on our screen, page 11, please, in

16     English, and I don't know whether we have the B/C/S version there.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The P number is not recorded.  Perhaps it could

18     be repeated.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31327 receives number P6832.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it is admitted into evidence.

21             And could we have a look at page 11.  One second, please.

22                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I read from that judgement and it's at the

24     bottom of the page.  And I most likely will have not the correct B/C/S

25     page, but I read to you one line of that sentence:

Page 27007

 1             "Only witness Mile Ujic said that he had heard about the crime on

 2     the same day or the following day and added that it had been committed by

 3     some extremists."

 4             Apparently, that is what that court recorded as your testimony,

 5     that you had told them that it had been committed by some extremists;

 6     whereas you tell us that you knew within a couple of days that it was

 7     Mr. Paunovic who was the likely perpetrator.

 8             Now, you told us that you had not been asked about it, but

 9     apparently questions about the incident itself were put to you.

10     Otherwise, I would not expect to have this record of your statement.

11     Have you any comment on your testimony in that case, that you thought

12     that it had been committed by some extremists rather than by

13     Mr. Paunovic, as you tell us?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain.

15             When I said here that I had heard about that on the afternoon of

16     the same day or the perhaps the next day, there were rumours that it had

17     been perpetrated by Mr. Paunovic but it wasn't corroborated that he was

18     exactly the one who did it.  When I said that those were extremists, I

19     stand by that, because a normal person couldn't do that but, rather, an

20     extremist who is insane and with disturbed mind.  That's why I gave this

21     answer.

22             Of course, I do not rule out him as the executor, and he was

23     convicted in the court of law.  In my eyes, this is not a normal

24     behavior.  It has to do with a disturbed mind.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's then look at what you told us about

Page 27008

 1     rumours or what you knew.  I think you told us but let me just -- one

 2     second, please.

 3             I read one of your answers to you:

 4             "I didn't know it was him the same day.  There was some

 5     speculation or doubt that he could be the executor.  Later on, as it

 6     turned out, after an investigation, it was established that it was he who

 7     had done it and that the initial information was correct."

 8             This is not rumour but this is the finding on the basis of an

 9     investigation, isn't it?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If you allow me, at first

11     there were some suspicions as to whether he was the a perpetrator.  Some

12     thought he was; some thought that nobody knew.  However, after the

13     investigation, it was confirmed that he was, indeed, the culprit.  And I

14     think I mentioned that this morning in my responses to the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Investigation by whom and when?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether it was conducted by

17     security organs from the brigade immediately in those days, and I think

18     it was them, and that they obtained this information through their own

19     channels.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So when you testified ten years after that they were

21     some extremists, you were not telling the truth, were you?  Because you

22     knew through this investigation that it had been established that it was

23     Mr. Paunovic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, I was speaking about the

25     first pieces of information that I received, that it had been done either

Page 27009

 1     by him or with other persons.  This was the initial information.  Later

 2     on, corroborated information was provided that he was the sole

 3     perpetrator.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So ten years after that, before a court in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you knew exactly what was established by that

 6     investigation, isn't it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, of course, I learned about

 8     that, both through the indictment and through the questions put to me by

 9     the defence team and by reviewing some of the materials.  Therefore, I

10     was familiar with that.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us a second ago that it was through the

12     investigation of the brigade that you learned about this.  That's not the

13     indictment ten years later.  That is pretty shortly after the event you

14     learned about it.  Isn't that true?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, but that was later that

16     I learned that he was the executor -- executioner.  But I wasn't asked

17     specifically about that in the court of law.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but you added apparently to the questions that

19     these were extremists where you knew well that the investigations of the

20     brigade had revealed that it was Mr. Paunovic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the first information

22     that I had was that it had been done by a group of extremists.  Only

23     later --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but ten years after that, as you told us, you

25     knew it and you didn't tell that court in Bosnia-Herzegovina what you

Page 27010

 1     knew, and that this -- but please tell me when I'm wrong, but that you

 2     were not telling the whole of the truth.  Because, by then, you knew that

 3     investigations had revealed that Paunovic was the perpetrator, not a

 4     group of extremists.  And I leave it alone, whether you consider

 5     Mr. Paunovic to be an extremist, yes or no.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I reiterate, I

 7     answered only the questions that were put to me.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Those questions were about who perpetrated

 9     this crime apparently.  At least I have difficulties in understanding it

10     in any other way.  I think I have given you ample opportunity to explain

11     yourself.  Let's move on.

12             Mr. Lukic, if you're ready to re-examine the witness, you have an

13     opportunity to do so.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon once again, Mr. Ujic.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   I will dwell only briefly on what has just been discussed.  After

18     this incident, how much time elapsed before you continued your job at the

19     Secretariat for National Defence?

20        A.   It is possible that a few days later I left the brigade forever,

21     and I continued to work as the chief in Rogatica.

22        Q.   Did you ever receive any official report on the investigation

23     carried out by the brigade in the aftermath of the incident?

24        A.   I never received anything official or in writing.  Everything was

25     conveyed orally, and that is why perhaps the answers were as they were

Page 27011

 1     because the brigade had never provided me with a written report.

 2        Q.   Later on, when you were the secretary of the National Defence,

 3     did you receive any reports from the brigade?

 4        A.   As a rule, I never received anything from the brigade, neither

 5     combat reports, except their requests for additional mobilisation or

 6     mobilisation for work obligation.  That's the only thing that I received.

 7        Q.   Can we now call P6823.  It's a document dated 25th of March,

 8     1992, a document produced by the -- or received, rather, by the SDS from

 9     Sveto Veselinovic, Tomo Batinic, and yourself, in which you informed them

10     about your resignation.

11             You can see in the second paragraph of this statement it reads

12     that:

13             "The factual division on the ground is already in existence but

14     that the official division must be accompanied by laws issued by relevant

15     Serbian ministries, as well as party agreements on the highest level."

16             So do you know whether there was any agreement reached between

17     the SDS and the SDA at the highest level with regard to the division of

18     Rogatica municipality?

19        A.   There were negotiations going between the Muslim and the Serb

20     negotiators to divide the municipality, the police administration, even

21     the buildings, and the undisputed part of the territory where either of

22     the peoples were in majority.  That was also included.

23        Q.   Sorry, we don't have much time.  Can you tell me whether the

24     leadership of the SDA and the SDS ever discussed this division because

25     obviously you were waiting for such an agreement.

Page 27012

 1        A.   That was what should have happened; at least that's what we were

 2     informed about in Rogatica.  However, that never happened because the

 3     first killings took place on the 6th of May, and all the negotiations and

 4     agreements were put on hold because the war broke out.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Rajko Kusic, was he above you in the SDS

 6     structure?  What was he a member of?

 7        A.   Yes, he was above me because he was a member of the Main Board of

 8     the Serbian Democratic Party and, as such, he operated in Rogatica as SDS

 9     number one.  He would be the one to convey instructions from the

10     Main Board.  He would issue orders in meetings about the next actions.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You testified about Sokolovic.  What did you mean

12     when you said that a group of people told you that he was tougher than

13     you?  What were you exactly told?  You were interrupted.

14        A.   It says in my statement that he was tougher than myself.  I

15     understood that to mean that I lacked political experience, that he was

16     an old timer in the politics because he was two times in the office of

17     the president of the municipality, and since he was in party for such a

18     long time, he had experience, unlike me, who came from the industrial

19     sector, and what followed was this infamous dismissal of mine and his

20     appointment.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now briefly look at P6773.

22        Q.   With regard to this document, it was suggested to you that the

23     Serbian side abandoned the negotiations on division.  I'd like to focus

24     your attention on paragraph 3.  You can see it on the screen in front of

25     you.  It says that an agreement was reached to divide the territory of

Page 27013

 1     Rogatica into two parts, the Muslim and the Serbian one.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you were on your feet.  You are not

 3     anymore, but ...

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Just to make sure that we had the appropriate part

 5     of the English, which we hadn't yet and I believe it's been solved.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, sorry.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   "The Serbian Assembly of Rogatica municipality based on its

11     decisions of the 18th of May, 1992, rendered null and void as a result of

12     the outbreak of war, triggered by the killing of Serbian soldier by

13     members of the Green Berets who was killed from an ambush exactly in the

14     territory that under the agreement reached should have been allocated to

15     the Serbian municipality of Rogatica."

16             Do you know who was killed before the 18th of May?

17        A.   Branko Bakacovic [phoen] was killed on the 6th of May who was a

18     civilian.  Members of the Ristic family were killed at that Madjar, near

19     Rogatica around the 11th or 15th of May.  That was the reason, actually,

20     the war broke out, and the agreed division no longer took place.

21        Q.   Was it in the territory that was supposed to be controlled by the

22     Serbs or by the Muslims?

23        A.   It all happened at the same time as the division was being agreed

24     and in the territory that belonged to the Serbian people.

25        Q.   Before the conflict broke out, was it demanded that the body of a

Page 27014

 1     soldier be returned?  Did you take part in that -- in those negotiations?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.  I was on the negotiating team of the Serbian people

 3     from day one.

 4        Q.   What were you told when you demanded that body?

 5        A.   There was a very defeating answer because it was contrary to what

 6     had previously been agreed on.  Then they said when we kill the next

 7     dozen or 100 Serbs, only then will we give back all the bodies.  So there

 8     was -- that was way too much, and the decision was made to renege on the

 9     agreement on our side because the war was already underway and people

10     were being killed.

11        Q.   Who told you that?

12        A.   I think -- because Muslims often changed members of their

13     negotiating team because some were milder or more skilful whereas others

14     were not.  But on that day, it was Ramiz Alajbegovic, as the police

15     station commander, and a judge of the Rogatica basic court,

16     Adnan Suljagic.  They said it at the time.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's rather repetitious what you were

18     asking, that what was said is clear from the statement.  Who said it?

19     Ramiz Alajbegovic also appears in the statement.  So why do we need to

20     hear that again?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] You were the Chief of Staff of the brigade.  Did

23     you ever act on behalf of the commander?  Did you ever stand in for him?

24        A.   Not as far as I can recall.

25        Q.   You were asked about two people.  It is in the temporary

Page 27015

 1     transcript of this case, page 17, line 24.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Page 70.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Apparently two members of the Rogatica Brigade were disciplined

 5     for killing a non-Serb, and that they received one-month prison sentence.

 6     Were they sanctioned to that term or were they simply held in custody in

 7     detention that lasted for a month, if you know?

 8        A.   As far as I know, the court issued its judgement and they were

 9     held in custody in Rogatica and later they were sent to the detention of

10     the Vlasenica prison, to the detention unit of that prison.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, page 70 of what exactly?

12             MR. LUKIC:  Of the -- transcript from the 16th of October.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, it has meanwhile been -- we will find

14     it.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now page 26.930.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I couldn't open this

17     transcript on the web mail so I couldn't check the new pages, but thank

18     you for your help.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] What I'm trying to ask you is this:  Was the

20     sentence they received a month or longer?

21        A.   For a month in Rogatica, they were held in the remand prison.

22     The sentence was longer, and when it was pronounced they were sent to the

23     Drina Corps facility, that is to say, the jail in Vlasenica.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have P6827 in

25     e-court.

Page 27016

 1        Q.   I'm interested in the date of this document.  It is the 22nd of

 2     May, 1992.  The SRK command on that day sent an order to the

 3     Rogatica Brigade command, the brigade of the TO, that is.  I don't know

 4     if you can recall it today, but on the 22nd of May, 1992, was the

 5     Rogatica Brigade part of the VRS?  Were the two organisations functioning

 6     in parallel, or was it still the case that this TO body of the Rogatica

 7     municipality was integrated into the VRS?

 8        A.   The TO existed until the first day the VRS came into being.  When

 9     it came into existence, that part of the Rogatica TO was incorporated

10     into the VRS.  This date seems odd.  There was a previous incorporation

11     with the Army of Republika Srpska, and now we have the 22nd of May, 1992

12     by which time the TO no longer existed.  It was the armed forces.

13     Because there could not have been that there were TO and the army

14     functioning at the same time.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  The next page, please,

16     under (j) in both versions.

17        Q.   On the 22nd of May, we see that "The Rogatica TO brigade shall be

18     formed from or in the territory of Rogatica," so in the future tense.

19     The brigade commander was to be Bogdan Kusic.

20        A.   It couldn't have been Bogdan Kusic.  There was no Bogdan Kusic.

21     It could only have been Rajko Kusic.  So this is a typographical error.

22             It is true that the Rogatica Brigade, as part of the TO,

23     functioned as such until the VRS was established.  When the armed forces

24     were established or perhaps a few days later, it was incorporated.  It is

25     believed in our part of the country that as of the 20th of May, all

Page 27017

 1     members of the Rogatica TO became members of the VRS, and that is what

 2     their files reflect in the office of National Defence.

 3        Q.   What is this order about, then, when it orders that the

 4     Rogatica Brigade of the TO be established on the 22nd of May, 1992?

 5        A.   I really don't know.

 6        Q.   Very well.  If you don't, you don't.

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P166, please.

 8        Q.   This is the 23rd of May, 1992.  You have explained why it says

 9     "Ljubljana" on the stamp when asked by Judge Orie.  However, I'm

10     interested in why these attacks began.  The document states in the fifth

11     line in the B/C/S, which is line 5 in the English as well, it says:

12             "The body of a soldier who had been captured by enemy forces two

13     days ago has been recovered."

14             Is it the body of the soldier you referred to?

15        A.   Precisely.

16        Q.   What was the direct cause of that fighting?

17        A.   The fighting was caused directly by the inability to recover the

18     late man's body, to have it buried.  His friends -- his family lived

19     perhaps 300 metres away from the place he was killed, and the other side

20     refused.  They said, When we kill a dozen, then we'll give the bodies

21     back.  And then the commander decided to resort to force to retrieve the

22     body, and it was, indeed, done.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let's look at P6828 next.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, I did understand that retrieving

25     the body that the other side was refusing to return to you was in a small

Page 27018

 1     area, whereas what is described here seems to be a rather large and broad

 2     operation against several villages and settlements.

 3             Was that all aimed at retrieving that body of that killed person,

 4     or was it a more general attack to get control over a larger area?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct.  All those villages

 6     were majority Muslim villages, and the concentration of Muslim forces was

 7     quite high in that area.  We were attacked by mortars from those

 8     villages.  Our positions, therefore, had to respond, attacking those

 9     villages so as to secure access to that area.  That is why those villages

10     were attacked.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] Can we have P4387 next.

13        Q.   The date is the 23rd of June, 1992.  You were asked about it when

14     questions were being put to you about Mr. Mehmed Agic.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In the third paragraph, it reads:

17             "A group of enemy extremists headed by Mehmed Agic, one of the

18     founders of the TO in which he worked for many years, was captured in the

19     sector of Vragolovi."

20        A.   I see that.

21        Q.   It goes on:

22             "Weapons and smaller quantities of devices with dynamite were

23     found in their possession."

24             Did you know at that time that Mr. Agic was actually captured as

25     an enemy soldier?

Page 27019

 1        A.   We dealt with it here already.  I said that I was informed by

 2     radio communication that he had been arrested, and I came to the Sladara

 3     factory immediately upon his arrival.  I believe I was the first person

 4     to visit him.  I know he was there.

 5        Q.   Did Mr. Agic survive the war?

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Nowadays he works in a federal ministry as an

 7     expert of some sort, in Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   Let's briefly look at P6828.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Lukic, I wasn't sure whether

10     you were done with Mr. Agic.

11             Do you know of any reason why Mr. Agic would tell things that you

12     consider to be totally untrue in respect of yourself?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I responsibly claim,

14     being aware of his statement I was shown here, I said so about Mr. Agic,

15     I said that we were neighbours living in the same apartment block.  I

16     said that he was in charge of the TO, the former Rogatica municipality,

17     the joint one.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You told all that.  But is there any specific reason

19     you could think of why Mr. Agic would not -- in accordance with the truth

20     as you tell us, would have told about your behaviour when you were

21     visiting him, that is, such as beating up and -- why would he tell that?

22     Do you know any explanation for that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, my only

24     explanation is that he would portray himself as a victim and that he was

25     tortured as officer.

Page 27020

 1             Now, for me, kicking him, which is not something that a sane

 2     person would say, that's not true.  I simply gave him a cigarette.  I lit

 3     it up for him.  He was tied up, but he didn't appear frightened at the

 4     time and for the few minutes he spoke to me.  I left the room, and he

 5     stayed behind with Mr. Kusic.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by "tied up"?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was tied at the time he was

 8     arrested and transported to the malt factory.  I don't know whether he

 9     exactly had handcuffs on, but he was bound.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And he was blindfolded, lying on the floor; is that

11     well understood?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.  He recognised my

13     voice, though, when I entered.  He said, Hi neighbour, do you have a

14     cigarette?  And I gave him one.  We spoke for less than five minutes.

15     Commander Kusic came and Kusic said, So what are you doing?  You came to

16     see your neighbour?  And I said, Yes.  But then he said, You have no

17     business here, leave.  And I did.  Whether something happened later is

18     something I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And you consider it a normal conversation, even if

20     someone is detained lying on the floor, blindfolded, only being able to

21     recognise you through your voice?  Is that -- did you give any comment on

22     that to Mr. Kusic or did you do anything about that type of behaviour?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, Mr. Kusic said while

24     I was present since Mr. Agic was the commander of the joint TO Staff

25     where Kusic was the soldier, he told him then, Boss - that's what they

Page 27021

 1     referred to like to Agic - yesterday you commanded me and now I have you

 2     tied up.  So a private arrested a captain first class.  That's what I

 3     heard, and then I left.  I don't know what followed.

 4             I also heard him say this:  You are an officer, and we respect

 5     your rank.  You will be treated accordingly, meaning you will not be

 6     tortured, beaten, but you are going to write a statement about your

 7     organisation, your weapons, who planted antitank mines in the town, and

 8     so on and so forth.  And Agic said, I will write down everything I know.

 9     Indeed, he signed that statement, although I never saw it because it was

10     handed directly to the commander.  I don't know what's in it.  I do know

11     he provided a written statement, though.

12             As for his statement to the court where he says I kicked him, it

13     is untrue.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  If we can have P6828, please.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, we can see the document from the

18     Rogatica Brigade dated 31st May 1992.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the next page in English,

20     please.

21        Q.   Towards the bottom of the page, it reads, under the heading:

22     "Request," the penultimate sentence says:

23             "We have many unarmed men."

24             What was the situation like towards the end of May on the ground?

25     Were there any unarmed men?  What kind of problems did the Serbian side

Page 27022

 1     encounter?

 2        A.   This request portrayed the exact situation on the ground.  We

 3     were poorly armed during that period, and as he said, he is asking for 25

 4     automatic rifles and five machine-guns.  This is something for a brigade.

 5     However, in terms of villages, it is just a token quantity.  However,

 6     they wanted to be stronger and to reinforce their capacity because, at

 7     that time, they were pretty weak.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] On page 16 of today's transcript, line --

12     lines 12 through 14, there's mention of Kozadre and the fighting that

13     took place there in which you took part.  The Prosecutor asked you about

14     it, and I'm going to read both your -- both the question and your answer

15     in English and you will receive a proper interpretation.

16             [In English] I quote:  "It would be a legitimate military" --

17     sorry:

18             "Q.  Your view at that time was if there's fire coming from a

19     village, it's not a village anymore.  It's a military target; right?

20             "A.  It would be a legitimate military target, yes."

21             [Interpretation] What I'd like to ask you is whether you opened

22     fire on the entire village or only the targets that you spotted.

23        A.   I responsibly claim that we didn't fire randomly but only engaged

24     the targets or the locations that we discovered enemy fire coming from.

25     So this was not discriminate firing and this was not indiscriminate fire.

Page 27023

 1             MR. LUKIC:  This clears, Your Honour, what you wanted to clarify,

 2     does it?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, exactly.  Discriminate or indiscriminate.

 4             Although I have one additional question for the witness.  Fire

 5     that came from those villages, what type of fire was it?  Was it

 6     machine-gun fire?  Was it automatic rifles?  Was it mortars?  What was

 7     it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were submachine-guns and

 9     60-millimetre mortars.  Of course, there were automatic weapon, rifles,

10     and the rest of it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Were you able to see or was there any civilian

14     column at all trying to pull out of the area?

15        A.   I can claim with full responsibility that, in spite of my best

16     effort to spot this column, which, as a rule, took their route along the

17     ravines and streambeds and valleys which were not accessible.  However,

18     fire was opened at us from higher ground and from the locations that we

19     eventually managed to reveal.  I have to say that that was not volley of

20     shells.  It was a limited number of shells and we used them only to

21     engage very specific targets with the best possible accuracy, and I was

22     the one who provided grid reference points for these targets.

23             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Can we now please have P4387.

24     [In English] Sorry, I finished with this one.  I need P6803.  And this

25     would be my last document and last line of question.

Page 27024

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you mean 6830?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  6803.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  6803 Mr. Lukic asked for.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The transcript says something different.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We have it on our screens.  It's the right document.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] There was mention of some large-scale

 7     activities.  It says:

 8             "No significant enemy activity in the brigade's zone of

 9     responsibility were observed."

10             Do you know what was meant by "significant activities"?

11        A.   Well, significant activities meant large-scale attacks on either

12     Serb villages or separation, line but on that day when the report is sent

13     nothing of that sort happened.  What we see further on, we see that

14     people were afraid of the war and they were seeking to be taken to a safe

15     place to avoid war operations.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, if I may talk to my client for half a

18     minute.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the volume please be lowered.

22             Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, do you know the strength of the Muslim

25     forces in Rogatica that was under their control?

Page 27025

 1        A.   It was a brigade, and I must say they were well armed, well

 2     trained and well skilled, especially for sabotage and terrorist actions,

 3     for the raids of sabotage groups who would penetrate the rear of the

 4     territory, commit what they intend to do, and then quickly retreat.  And

 5     they were very good at it, I have to say.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I think --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  One more question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One question then.

 9             MR. LUKIC:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Ujic, did history play any role in the

11     attitude of the people in Rogatica?

12        A.   Unfortunately, definitely yes.  1941 was not a long time ago, and

13     it will not quickly be forgotten, when two Muslim soldiers or, rather,

14     two Ustasha would take 100 civilians, women, old people, children, and

15     then slaughter them and they burned them --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, the witness has answered your question by

17     saying, "Unfortunately, definitely yes," and I think it's clear from a

18     lot of evidence that the history and the way in which the various

19     ethnicities and groups treated each other during the Second World War and

20     even before that, and after that, was certainly part of feelings among

21     the population.

22             If that was your last question.

23             MR. LUKIC:  It was my last question, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

Page 27026

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, do you have any questions?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I do need about five minutes and I'm in the

 3     Chamber's hands as to whether to do it before or after the break.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before the break.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31409.

 7                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 8        Q.   As this comes to the screen, sir, at temporary transcript page 61

 9     today, Mr. Lukic ask you:

10             "Q.  I will dwell only briefly on what has just been discussed.

11     After this incident, how much time elapsed before you continued your job

12     at the Secretariat for National Defence?"

13             Now, you understood that Mr. Lukic, like you, was using this

14     incident to describe Mr. Paunovic's crime, the mass murder of people

15     taken from Rasadnik; right?

16        A.   Well, yes.

17        Q.   You answered:

18             "It is possible that a few days later I left the brigade forever,

19     and I continued to work as the chief in Rogatica."

20             Now, what we're seeing on the screen is an order dated 15

21     December 1992 from your commander, Rajko Kusic, sent to the Drina Corps

22     command.  It is appointing officers to positions in the command of the

23     1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

24             Now, just to confirm, by 15 December 1992, the Rogatica Brigade

25     had been renamed the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and had been

Page 27027

 1     transferred to the Drina Corps; correct?

 2        A.   Yes, precisely.

 3        Q.   Can you read what we find at point 1, please, on this page.

 4     Could you read it off the document aloud, please.

 5        A.   "Brigade staff:  Item 1, as chief of brigade staff:  Mile

 6     (father's name Dobroslav) Ujic, captain first class.  Personal military

 7     occupational speciality, 31202.  Personal identification number,

 8     2505951173233."

 9             So these are my personal details.  Can I continue?

10        Q.   Well, I have a question now.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Wait for the question.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   This is four months after the massacre of the people taken from

14     Rasadnik to be used as human shields, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   It's not possible that you left the brigade just a few days after

17     that massacre, is it?

18        A.   I will be happy to give you an answer.

19             The minister of Defence, General Bogdan Subotic, issued a

20     decision appointing me officially as the secretary of the Secretariat of

21     Defence in late June or early July 1992.  However, I remained a member of

22     the staff of the brigade as an acting chief of the brigade staff.  That

23     is why these two offices overlapped because I was in the brigade and in

24     the draft office at the same time.  And since he did not have a person

25     with proper speciality for this, my name remained there virtually as

Page 27028

 1     working both in the brigade and in the draft office as of May 1992.

 2        Q.   So you continued working in the brigade during this period,

 3     December 1992, as your commander, Mr. Kusic, is informing the Drina Corps

 4     command; right?

 5        A.   Yes, but I have to say that most of my time I spent at the

 6     defence office, and I went to the brigade as needed every day or every

 7     other day for a couple of hours in order to instruct the soldiers in

 8     artillery skills and other skills.

 9        Q.   Sir, just to be perfectly clearly, what I'm putting to you is

10     when you told Mr. Lukic that it was possible that you left the brigade

11     command, that you left the brigade forever, a few days after Mr. Paunovic

12     killed those people, that wasn't the truth.  You didn't leave the brigade

13     forever at that time; correct?

14        A.   Being a chief is one thing and being an acting chief is a totally

15     different thing, pending the replacement.  I informed -- or, actually, I

16     was appointed by the minister in late June or --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last

18     sentence.  Thank you.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   You've been asked to repeat the last sentence.

21        A.   I said that it is true that I received the decision from the

22     minister of defence appointing me the chief of the office in Rogatica.

23     Whenever my presence in the brigade was necessary for an hour or two, I

24     would go there, finish my job, and return again to the draft office.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31353.  I believe it's been

Page 27029

 1     assigned an exhibit number.  I'm looking for page 4 in the English.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This is Exhibit P6824, Your Honours.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  I'm afraid I don't have the B/C/S page off the top

 4     of my head, but if we could just look in the middle here.

 5        Q.   This is the statement you gave the Rogatica police in 2004.

 6     Middle of the second paragraph, you said:

 7             "I had been in charge of one of the companies called Gucevska

 8     until sometime in early May 1992 when the brigade command reassigned me

 9     to the position of the brigade chief.  I held this position throughout

10     the entire 1992."

11             Again, what you told the Rogatica police, 2004, that was the

12     truth.  You were the brigade chief through the entire 1992 and

13     afterwards; right?

14        A.   There is only one truth, which is what I said, that originally I

15     was in charge of the TO Gucevo; that the brigade command summoned me

16     sometime in May, asking me to hand over the company command to somebody

17     else and that I would be transferred to the brigade.  However, already in

18     July, I was appointed chief of the defence department.  I only went to

19     the brigade from time to time as an acting Chief of Staff because soon

20     thereafter, my replacement was found.  A new officer came to take my

21     place, and I definitely stopped going to the brigade except when it was

22     necessary to work with the soldiers and train them on how to detect

23     targets.

24        Q.   Sir, I put to you that you're modifying your evidence today and

25     you're doing so to minimise your own responsibility.  That's true, isn't

Page 27030

 1     it?

 2        A.   No, no, no.  I am not trying to diminish responsibility.  I was

 3     what I was.  It can be documented.  Whatever I did, I am here.  If I did

 4     something wrong, I am at your disposal.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 31409.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31409 receives number P6833,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honours, just very briefly.  I am aware we

11     have a document bearing the witness's name after this date in our

12     collection.  I'm in the Chamber's hands.  I hadn't uploaded it previously

13     and I don't have the ERN in my notes, but if the Chamber would wish him

14     to be given an opportunity to comment, we can locate it during the break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean the statement from the brigade?

16             MR. TRALDI:  A document from the brigade bearing his name, yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And dated?

18             MR. TRALDI:  After the 15th of December.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  After the 15th of December.  We'll consider it,

20     whether we need it or not but -- one second.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The statement of Mr. Agic you referred to, is that

23     in evidence?

24             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You are not tendering it.  You read the relevant

Page 27031

 1     portions and that's --

 2             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 4             Mr. Lukic, any further questions?  No.  Then this concludes your

 5     testimony, Mr. Ujic.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes, I think -- no, I think we --

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  This concludes your evidence, Mr. Ujic.  I'd like to

10     thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered all

11     the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

12     wish you a safe return home again.  You may now follow the usher.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It all took more time than expected and therefore

16     the Chamber is a bit sorry for the next witness who may have been

17     waiting, but it really doesn't make any sense to start for five minutes

18     with him and then immediately -- so, therefore, I would suggest that we

19     adjourn for the day and that we start with the next witness tomorrow.

20             And could VWS tell the witness that the Chamber is sorry that we

21     kept him waiting for such a long time and could not start his testimony

22     today.

23             We'll adjourn and we'll resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the 21st of

24     October, Courtroom I, 9.30 in the morning.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

Page 27032

 1                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

 2                           October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.