Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27124

 1                           Wednesday, 22 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

11             Meanwhile, one preliminary matter resulting from yesterday, and

12     if the Prosecution doesn't mind, I'll take the lead.  The Chamber was

13     informed that the Prosecution has uploaded under number 65 ter 02370A the

14     excerpts from the transcript of the 26th Republika Srpska Assembly

15     Session, which was tendered with Witness Radojica Mladjenovic.  I refer

16     to the transcript page 27105, on the 21st of October.  Already

17     provisionally number P06838 was assigned, and the Chamber now understands

18     that where it was announced that page 124 and 25 would be tendered, that

19     it is page 1, page 24 and page 25.

20                           [The witness takes the stand].

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P6838 is admitted into evidence and if there's any

22     problem with the excerpts, the Defence has an opportunity to raise it

23     within the next 48 hours.

24             Good morning, Mr. Savkic.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 27125

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, I do understand that you have received

 2     again the documents you've given yesterday to the Tribunal.

 3             Now, if you want to consult any of these documents, and there

 4     were six, then you should first ask for permission and tell us which

 5     document you would like to consult.

 6             Is that clear?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I also would like to remind you that you're

 9     still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning

10     of your testimony.

11             And Mr. Stojanovic will now put his last two questions in

12     examination-in-chief.

13                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV SAVKIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

16                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

18        A.   Good morning.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have 699

20     in e-court, please.  D699.  And could we focus on paragraph 32 of the

21     witness's statement.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, in paragraph 32, you speak about information that

23     you received, that the Muslims were preparing an all-out attack on

24     Vlasenica in order to take control of it and establish their own

25     government.

Page 27126

 1             Could you please tell the Court how it was that you received this

 2     information?

 3        A.   It was quite by accident, if I can put it that way.  The cleaning

 4     lady at the municipal assembly, the lady who was cleaning the office of

 5     the president of the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, a diary was found,

 6     and as far as I can remember, the date was the 13th of April, and his

 7     notes were found under that date, and it was quite clear from that what

 8     it was that was being prepared by the SDA.  That is one thing.

 9             Another thing:  People who were as worried as we were provided

10     information to us.  That's the second reason, actually.  On the 20th of

11     April in Cerska, a unit was lined up, and its commander and command were

12     proclaimed, and the leader was --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the name.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However the previous document was

15     more important, the one that I told you about.  And it was clear on that

16     basis.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I seek clarification, Mr. Stojanovic, if you don't

18     mind.

19             Sir, you are quoted here as saying the cleaning lady and then you

20     say a diary was found and his notes.  Whose notes are these?  Whose diary

21     was this?  It's obviously not the lady's because now it's a male who owns

22     it.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The diary was of the president of

24     the Executive Council of the municipality of Vlasenica, Izet Redzic.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The information doesn't come from the lady.  The

Page 27127

 1     president of the assembly already had the information.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The president of the Executive

 3     Council, in his diary, under the date that I mentioned, he kept notes,

 4     and everything was clear, on the basis of those notes, what was being

 5     prepared.  If you put that up on the screen, I can provide further


 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not necessary.  Thank you so much.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just -- did you see that diary, or did the

 9     cleaning lady just relay that information to you?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to me.  She relayed it to

11     people who lived up there in Vlasenica in that period.  And who worked

12     with us, who were in this council for interethnic co-operation or,

13     rather, the people who were working on that agreement that we spoke about

14     yesterday.  And, of course, all of this took its own line afterwards

15     towards the MUP and the Territorial Defence.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But my question mainly focuses on did she take those

17     notes and show them to those persons, or did she look at it and then told

18     these others what the content was.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She showed it to them and she gave

20     them the diary.  And not only the diary but also a page on which it was

21     written further up "the herd to be killed," and then a list of the best

22     known Serbs from the entire municipality of Vlasenica.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you happen to have a copy of that page, or do you

24     know where a copy can be found?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I brought that copy to my lawyer,

Page 27128

 1     and I brought it to the trial of Mr. Radovan Karadzic.  It was admitted

 2     into evidence in the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so on and so forth.

 3     It's been used for a long time now.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I see Mr. Stojanovic is nodding yes.  Does

 5     that mean that you want to tender that Mr. Stojanovic or ...

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour.  That is

 7     my next step.

 8        Q.   But for the transcript, could the witness be clear on the

 9     position that Izet Redzic held at that point in time.  You say that these

10     are his notes.

11        A.   Izet Redzic was the president of the Executive Board of the

12     Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica; there's no denying that.  That is to

13     say, that he exercised power together with his co-workers.

14        Q.   Line 2, on page 3, I think there's a bit of a difference.  I

15     think there's a bit of a difference in the answers in the transcript so

16     that's why I asked this now.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have another

18     document, 65 ter 1D03503.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness -- actually, have you ever had an opportunity before

20     of seeing the handwriting of the then-president of the Executive Board of

21     the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica?

22        A.   Yes.  He worked in the same company where I worked.  That is to

23     say, the bauxite mines, Milici.  He was an engineer, a mechanical

24     engineer, that is to say, he worked in a different department because I

25     worked on an electrical maintenance.  After all, we went to high school

Page 27129

 1     together as well.  The first grade of high school.  This is his

 2     handwriting, absolutely.  However, as far as I know, he never denied it

 3     either.

 4        Q.   With your leave, in view of what this document looks like, I'd

 5     like to ask you something.  The upper part is typewritten --

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   What's this about?

 8        A.   This is a copy of that page from the diary that was published in

 9     the gazette or, rather, a gazette that was being published then.  I think

10     it was called Glas Birca.  So on page 2, you can see a photocopy of this

11     diary page.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And in this part of the text on the right-hand side

13     underneath the date, the 13th of April, 1992, this is what is written:

14             "The commission worked well, given the conditions?"

15             And then the next line:  "Herd for slaughtering."

16             Now this line, is that what you were telling us about a moment

17     ago?

18        A.   Yes, yes, that's one of the things that was there.  It said "herd

19     for slaughtering" and then there was this list.  I mean, the most

20     prominent Serbs.  Or, how do I put this?  Well, I'm not saying the

21     intelligentsia, but the most prominent Serbs in the entire municipality

22     of Vlasenica.  Milici was included as well.  For example, I think I was

23     the third person on this list.  That's what they told me.  I haven't seen

24     this list though.  Because it is well known where it ended up.

25        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your

Page 27130

 1     recollection, where did this list end up?

 2        A.   The original of this page was taken by then-Colonel or

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel, Radovan Tacic.  He was from the armoured unit.

 4     Actually he said that he would take this institute, and so on and so

 5     forth, somewhere in Belgrade or Uzice.  When 40 tanks were being

 6     withdrawn, he was a commander there.  He took that to Serbia and this

 7     court and the other courts and prosecutor's offices of Bosnia and Serbia

 8     should find Mr. Radovan Tacic.  He's still alive and he would have to

 9     know where this is.  However many people had seen this.  One of the

10     people who had seen this was a witness who testified here in the case of

11     Radovan Karadzic, Zoran Zivanovic was his name; unfortunately, he is

12     deceased.  His brother was the seventh person on that list.  A young man,

13     a high school student who lived a modest life.  To this day, he did not

14     understand why he was on that list, and he did see that.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, now could you tell us, you said that it

16     clearly appears that a number of Serbs would be killed after a take-over,

17     a massive attack on Vlasenica.

18             Could you tell us exactly where you find the attack and where you

19     find the clear indication that Serbs would be killed?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two points, and I will --

21     actually, there are three points, and I will tell you.

22             If you move onto the next one:

23             "Call the president of the Municipal Assembly of Tuzla, Beslagic,

24     to address our refugees."

25             And then the next one is:

Page 27131

 1             "The General Staff is directing the entire operations."

 2             And then most importantly, focus on the left-hand side underneath

 3     these names.  This is what is written --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... go to the

 5     next page in English.

 6             Please continue.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Isko, to let out the children from

 8     the secondary school for Friday and Monday.  Secure a motive and inductor

 9     from Finale."  The Friday was supposed to be the 24th.  That's easy.

10     Well, inductor from Finale and then get the children out of the secondary

11     school there can only be two motives.  One is --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What does it say at all, I mean, apart from motives.

13     He see that Isko is to let out the children from secondary school on

14     Friday and Monday.  Which suggests that they go there on Friday and they

15     go there on Monday.

16             What is so clearly indicated here that ...?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sir, it's quite clear.

18     Inductor from Finale.  Inductor.  That's equipment that any army in the

19     world would have.  That is for dealing with explosives.  One is to take

20     the Muslim children out because he is referring to them and then the

21     remaining Serb children should be kept there and blackmailed, or blown up

22     using this inductor.  Isko is Isko Jasarevic.  He is an officer.  Later

23     on, he was appointed assistant commander for morale at the Cerski

24     detachment.  In the chronicles of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you can

25     find his CV, and it says that I figured prominently in the training

Page 27132

 1     activities of the Patriotic League in March 1992.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm trying to understand what so clearly emerges

 3     from this document.  That is what I'm focussed on at this moment rather

 4     than on background information you may have.

 5             Where does it say that this will be an attack on -- on Vlasenica?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said this, what is

 7     here, and this is what I'm saying now.  I'm going back to -- well,

 8     actually we're on the same page.  We're on the same page.  On the

 9     right-hand side.  What is written here and it should be translated,

10     "organised for defence" --

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in English could

12     we have the first page of the document again.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So underneath this, above the

15     names, actually, it's stated very clearly:  "Organisation for defence".

16     In all of their documents when they speak about attacks against our

17     villages and the like, then --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I have some difficulties in understanding

19     that the words "organising for defence" is a clear indication of

20     attacking Vlasenica.  I mean, I may understand that you may have this

21     interpretation.  But you said it clearly appears from this document,

22     which, by the way, seems to be a kind of cut-and-paste document anyhow.

23     But I am trying -- you said there are two things are clear.  First, an

24     attack on Vlasenica, and, second, a list of Serbs to be killed.

25             Now these two items I'm trying to see where the document --

Page 27133

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- unambiguously states that.  And you've told us

 3     that the attack should be deduced from three persons being charged with

 4     organising for defence.

 5             Now, the Serbs to be killed, where do we find that in this

 6     document?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that it is on

 8     this list "the herd for slaughtering," and I said where that list is

 9     right now.  However, I've also stated that, as far as this Isko is

10     concerned and the preparations of this sabotage, it is quite clear

11     anywhere in the world, in any army, what someone does with an inductor.

12     Starting with any soldier, the lowest ranking sergeant, up to a general.

13     Or even a high school student.  Everyone know was an inductor is used

14     for.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  What -- let me just see whether I fully understand.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you can explain what you understand to

17     be?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all formations of the world, in

19     all armies --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm asking you what you understand to be an

21     inductor.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An inductor is a device that is

23     used, most often, in engineering, or in construction companies, or

24     companies that are involved in destruction by the use of explosives.

25     Electrical networks are set up with explosives.  Then this becomes a very

Page 27134

 1     powerful induction generator of electricity.  If you've watched American

 2     films and other films, then it has this handle up here, and then when the

 3     explosive is activated, you either press it or you twist it; it depends

 4     on the manufacturer.  And in this way, the explosive is activated.  As an

 5     engineer, I understand that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Stojanovic, apparently this is

 7     important part of what you present as evidence.  The translation of the

 8     document says something quite different.  Because it talks about a doctor

 9     rather than an inductor and, therefore, I'm a bit confused that you

10     didn't check that part of the -- of the evidence.  And the translation.

11     Because...

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can we go to the next page in English again.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because that's where it appears.

14             It says:

15             "Isko to let out the children from the secondary school for

16     Friday and Monday.  Secure" - and then it says something that difficult

17     to - "engine and doctor from," it reads "Isola" but I did understand that

18     you said "Finale".  Can you read what kind of a -- what kind of a machine

19     or engine has to be secured?  So the words before inductor, what does it

20     say?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm asking the witness at this moment.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  What does it read?  Could you see it?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says clearly:  And

Page 27135

 1     I-n-d-u-k-t-o-r.  You can't see the I at the beginning.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about the word before that.  So the last

 3     word on the fourth line --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ensure M-o-t" and then the next

 5     letter could be O and then R which means motor.  Then again, it could be

 6     M-o-t, which is quite clear, but the rest is not so clear.  If we take

 7     this to be motor then it goes very well with the next word, "inductor".

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Is that a motor inductor?  And how do we have

 9     to -- how do we have understand a motor inductor to be related to --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the word motor, there is a

11     word "and", "motor and an inductor".  A motor and an inductor from

12     Finale.  That's the name of the company that is in wood processing and

13     other businesses.  There was never a doctor in Finale, and the word

14     inductor is the same as in this sentence.  It's Monday and Friday.  And

15     you can see that it's identical as that which is before the word

16     inductor.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, is an inductor a component which is very

18     broadly and generally used in all kind of technical equipment, I would

19     say electronical equipment or electronic components of equipment?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I am an electrical engineer and

21     it doesn't exist.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You say it doesn't exist.  Let me just --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm talking about an inductor.  Is an inductor

25     specifically a component of an explosive device or is it a generally used

Page 27136

 1     in many, many appliances, a kind of a small part of an electrical circuit

 2     which is used in many, many technical or electrical appliances?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it doesn't exist.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you are telling us that -- what doesn't exist?

 5     Does an inductor not exist?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Isko was a philosophy teacher

 7     and a reserve military officer.  As for philosophy, there is nothing that

 8     you will find under the name of inductor.  Whereas in the school for

 9     reserve officers, an inductor is the device that I described.  That is

10     the only thing that you come across if you attend a military school.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, I -- I do understand that an inductor is

12     not the main subject in philosophy teaching.  But I'm trying to find out

13     how specific the reference to an inductor is for an explosive device.  I

14     mean, a motor, which apparently is also mentioned there, I wouldn't

15     immediately think a motor to be necessary or to be specifically to be

16     used for explosive activities.

17             Now, I'm asking myself the same question for an inductor.  Is an

18     inductor a electronical or electric device specifically aimed at being

19     used in explosive devices or is it a rather general electrical or

20     electronical component which is used in, well, let's say, in washing

21     machines, in radio equipment, in whatever.  I'm trying to understand why

22     I conclude from the mentioning of the word inductor that this is an

23     exercise which is aiming at explosives.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, why were only Muslim children

25     taken out from the secondary school, and on a Friday, at that?  Why?  He

Page 27137

 1     was a reserve captain.  Why the Muslim children?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please focus your answer --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the teacher.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please focus on what I asked.  And if you

 5     are unable to do that, then we leave it for that.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic, if you can shed some additional light and also on

 7     where the document reads that only Muslim children are to be let out from

 8     the school, not only on Friday, apparently, linked to explosions but then

 9     on Monday again which then comes a bit as a surprise.

10             If you can shed light on that, together with the witness, you're

11     invited to do that.  But, first of all, always check the translation so

12     that we are not thinking in terms of doctors, rather than in terms of

13     inductors.

14             Please.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will do so, Your Honours.

16     The translation of the document is the one that we had uploaded in the

17     system, and we felt we were obliged to clarify this with the witness, and

18     then we shall try to verify the translation.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, at the time, that is to say, in mid-April 1992, what

20     were relations on the ground like in municipality of Vlasenica?  And I'm

21     talking about interethnic relations.

22        A.   Look, gentlemen, we were established or, rather, six of us were

23     chosen as the most respectable people.  We appreciated one another

24     extremely, and we still have high regard for each other, especially while

25     Dr. Dzana was the president of the SDA, we were able to keep the

Page 27138

 1     situation in Vlasenica under control, absolutely.  However, the major

 2     problems occur in the exercise of power.  For example, Izet Redzic was

 3     the president of the Executive Committee.  There was no Serb who would

 4     approach this person in order to solicit any favours for me, and there

 5     were many reasons for that.  This same person with whom we communicated

 6     but not only with him, there was also Sefo Saracevic, who was the

 7     secretary of the municipal assembly.  There was also Mustafa Imamovic who

 8     was the president of the court.  He would always feel somehow threatened

 9     and unable to exercise his power.  At one point, he decided to arm all

10     his associates, that is to say 21 of them and including the president of

11     the municipality, and two porters, all of them had handguns both during

12     working hours and after working hours.

13        Q.   Let me stop you there for a moment and let's focus in that

14     direction.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go back to

16     the first page in English of this document.

17        Q.   The man that you just described in terms of his conduct, if this

18     is his handwriting and his words, says:  "The General Staff will direct

19     all the operations."

20             I'm asking you:  Did you have any specific knowledge about what

21     kind of General Staff he was speaking that time, on the 13th of April,

22     1992?

23        A.   Gentleman, it's absolutely clear.  At that time there was no

24     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, according to the Yugoslav

25     constitution and the BH constitution --

Page 27139

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is not what General Staff was not

 2     meant.  The question was what General Staff is being referred to here.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The General Staff mentioned here

 4     was the Main Staff of the Patriotic League, and it's quite clear who

 5     members of the Patriotic League were.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And how do you know that that is what is meant here?

 7     Is that your interpretation of the document, or do you have any specific

 8     reason to believe that that is what General Staff is referring to here?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who among the Muslim

10     people would be directing operations other than the General Staff of the

11     Green Berets, et cetera.  That's one thing.

12             Secondly, yes, I did have knowledge.  There were millions of

13     facts that could be proved.  Many of them were well known back then and

14     today as well.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I leave it in the hands of Mr. Stojanovic what

16     to select from the million -- millions of facts, because that might be a

17     bit too much at this moment in the three minutes that were remaining for

18     you, Mr. Stojanovic, approximately 45 minutes ago.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will comply, Your Honours.

20             Can we now look at paragraph 20 of your statement, D699, just

21     briefly.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud.  He knows

23     what the consequences will be.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you please look at paragraph 20 of your statement where you

Page 27140

 1     speak about the forming of paramilitary formations of the

 2     Patriotic League and HOS.  When you were giving your answers a while ago,

 3     I just like to ask you specifically, did you have any concrete knowledge

 4     that in April of 1992 units of the Patriotic League and the HOS were

 5     already operational in Vlasenica and Birac?

 6        A.   Yes.  Just an example:  In September, members of the

 7     Patriotic League were publicly lined up in Tuzla.  I think it was in

 8     November, rather.  Then, in Vlasenica, HOS or the Croatian Party of

 9     Right, General Pijukovic [phoen], members of HOS were walking around the

10     village in broad daylight completely freely.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

12     tender document 1D03503 into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that the witness be asked to remove his

15     headphones.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please -- first of all, do you understand

17     the English language?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I remove my earphones.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You should first -- put them on again, please.

20             You should first answer my question, whether you do understand or

21     read the English language.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't give you an answer.  I

23     can read a bit.  I used to be fluent in English but nowadays -- I

24     wouldn't say that I know the language.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the information you gave us is sufficient to

Page 27141

 1     not deal with the matter in the presence of the witness.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  In that case, Mr. President, it might be most

 3     expeditious I will have a few questions about the document and I'd just

 4     ask that it be MFI'd and we address it at the completion of his

 5     testimony.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's proceed in that way.  Madam Registrar, the

 7     number.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D3503 receives number D705,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And is marked for identification.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.  You are aware that you have put

12     a few questions to the witness which - and you have put a document to the

13     witness - which raises so many questions that you would have done better

14     by starting with that issue rather than do it at -- in the last three

15     minutes of your examination-in-chief.  But please conclude soon your

16     examination.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now have

18     D699 again, paragraph 42.

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, just briefly, 42.  Here you speak about a sabotage

20     carried out by Muslim paramilitary formations on the 27th of May, 1992,

21     and I'm going to ask you only what is the basis of your information that

22     this event had occurred in the manner explained here.

23        A.   I saw all this and experienced all this.  This Court saw relevant

24     documents during the trials of both Radovan Karadzic and

25     Momcilo Krajisnik.  There are criminal reports.  There are perpetrators

Page 27142

 1     who committed the crime, and quite importantly, there is a number of

 2     Muslims involved there, including Mirsad Sulejmanovic.  But I can give

 3     you many more names, if you wish.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, what is your personal knowledge about the

 5     perpetrators?  So not what you learned from documents but do you have any

 6     personal knowledge about the incident?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in Milici at the time.  My

 8     company, Boksit was transporting ore from the pit to the foundry in

 9     Zvornik.  The road ran through Konjevic Polje.  It was a convoy made up

10     of 30 vehicles.  On the way back --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I fully understand that you learned about the

12     incident.  My question was focussed on whether you have any personal

13     knowledge about the perpetrators.  Were you there, did you see them, how

14     did you gain any information about who perpetrated this crime, as you

15     told us?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The survivors, the drivers.  One of

17     them was a neighbour of mine, Milan Dukic.  We drew up together.  We were

18     born in the same village of Dubnica.  He told me everything.  We had been

19     living next to all those people until recently, and you can find his

20     statement about this.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  What is in his statement, we'll leave it to

22     the parties to present that statement or not.  What did he tell you about

23     the perpetrators?  What he saw when it all happened.  Did he identify a

24     perpetrator, or did he know the perpetrator?  Could you tell us what he

25     told you?

Page 27143

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me everything.  How they

 2     set up an ambush.  He was one of the lorry drivers.  He mentioned

 3     specific people whom he recognised among other -- the man known as Taran.

 4     So you can find other names in his statement.  I personally cannot

 5     remember them at the moment, but if I were to see his statement, it would

 6     be helpful.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We're not going to give that you statement at

 8     this moment.

 9             Do I understand that what you have read in his statements is what

10     he had told you.  Is that more or less how we have to understand your

11     testimony?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He first related this to me, and

13     then later on, he gave a statement to the public security station in

14     Milici.  So he was one of the persons with whom I had this kind of

15     conversation.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And the content of the statements, to the extent you

17     are aware of them, are the same as what he told you.  Is that ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Stojanovic.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'll finish with one more question.

24             Did you have an opportunity to attend a funeral of any of the

25     employees from the company where you used to work, who were the victims

Page 27144

 1     of these tragic events?

 2        A.   Well, unfortunately, rarely.  In May of 1992, we would have

 3     buried someone each and every day.  If we started to go day by date, that

 4     would be ...

 5        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I'm not going to insist on this any

 6     further.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with this, I have

 8     concluded my examination-in-chief, and, therefore, I will not tender this

 9     document that you pointed out as a witness statement.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's not tendered then.

11             We've five minutes left.  Perhaps -- Mr. Traldi, apparently it

12     was relevant for the admission of the other document.  Is there any way

13     that you could start with that and see if we can deal with that before we

14     take a break.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm not sure I will complete

16     that line but I'll make a start.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see where it ends.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's --

21             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  You

23     find him to your right and Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.

24             Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 27145

 1        Q.   Sir you were asked some questions this morning about a document

 2     that you identified as part of Izet Redzic's notebook.  When was the

 3     first time you saw that document?

 4        A.   I think that it was sometime between the 16th and 18th of April,

 5     or something like that.

 6        Q.   Do you mean in 1992?

 7        A.   If that is the document, yes, that's what I mean.

 8        Q.   Now, beginning on the 14th of April, 1992, you had, in fact, left

 9     Vlasenica and gone to Milici; right?

10        A.   The 13th of April.  The session of the municipal assembly was

11     held on the 13th of April.

12        Q.   And, sir, that's not what I asked you.  What I asked you was:

13     Beginning on 14th of April, you had left Vlasenica municipality, you had

14     gone to Milici municipality; right?

15        A.   I live in this place called Milici.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was whether you went at that point in

17     time from Vlasenica to Milici.  Whether you lived there or not is a

18     different matter.  Sometimes people are at a place where they do not

19     live.

20             Did you go at the point in time mentioned by Mr. Traldi from

21     Vlasenica to Milici?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I live there.  I spend my

23     nights there.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   So you were no longer in Vlasenica when this document was, as you

Page 27146

 1     said, discovered by a cleaning lady; right?

 2        A.   Well, I was travelling every day as a member of this council.

 3     Apparently you haven't read the agreement.  I literally travelled from

 4     Milici to Vlasenica every day, and then further on to Sarajevo.  I cannot

 5     account for every day.

 6        Q.   Well --

 7        A.   I was there.  My wife was there.  My mother-in-law was there.

 8        Q.   Well, sir, I've asked about the 14th because of your own previous

 9     testimony in the Krajisnik case.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31466, page 105.

11        Q.   I take it you testified truthfully in that case, to the best of

12     your knowledge.  That's your evidence today?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, in the middle of this page, the Defence counsel is asking

15     you about Muslims who had left Vlasenica.  He says:  "What was the effect

16     of the Muslim --

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What line.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Line 14, Your Honour.

19        Q.   "What was the effect of the Muslim departures that you have

20     described?"

21             You say:  "The departure of Muslims instilled fear into everyone,

22     Serbs and Muslims alike."

23             You speak for a few more lines.  And then on line 21, after

24     describing some rumours, part of which was propaganda maybe, you say:

25     "But I cannot tell you more about it because already on the 14th I was in

Page 27147

 1     Milici; I was not in Vlasenica."

 2             So, in fact, you can't tell us more from your personal knowledge

 3     about what was happening between the 14th and the 20th of April in

 4     Vlasenica, because you were already in Milici; right?

 5        A.   Sir, you asked me whether I had any knowledge about what you had

 6     asked me about.  I could have that knowledge in Milici as well, just like

 7     in Vlasenica, and at the mine, and so on and so forth.  And --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I stop you there.  You're moving subject.

 9     Whether you could have known anything being in Milici is a different

10     matter.  What Mr. Traldi puts to you is that, today, you tell us that you

11     went up and down from Milici to Vlasenica, whereas, in this other case,

12     you testified that you could not know what happened in Vlasenica because

13     you were in Milici, which clearly suggests that you were not, on a daily

14     basis, in Vlasenica.

15             That contradiction is what Mr. Traldi is asking you about.  Do

16     you have an explanation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even say that.  Rather,

18     this knowledge, I answered that my knowledge about this was up until the

19     18th.  I didn't say where.  Well, of course, you can ask me but ...

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that -- if that's your explanation, then

21     Mr. Traldi will put his next question to you.

22             But only after the break, Mr. Traldi.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break first, and you're invited to

25     follow the usher.

Page 27148

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to come in, I

 6     already have two small questions, Mr. Stojanovic, about the document

 7     which is MFI'd at this moment.

 8             First of all, in the translation, it -- in the top line, it

 9     refers to a number, 12, whereas, in the -- in the translation, it's

10     appendix number 16/, a slash I do not find in the original.  And, second,

11     an appendix to what is, of course, one of the questions that --

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- may be in need of an answer.

14             We'll continue, Mr. Savkic.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, continuing with questions about this notebook page.

17             During your testimony in the Krajisnik case, you didn't mention

18     it at all, did you?

19        A.   In some other light, yes, yes.  I must have.  I cannot remember

20     right now.  I testified for all of five days.  However, in the meantime,

21     I remembered some very important things that you have in this transcript

22     that is very important for the Court as well.  More or less, all my

23     knowledge related to Vlasenica, I gained from Radomir Bjelanovic, a

24     personal friend of mine, who was chief of the public security station at

25     the time.  That's what I told you, knowledge.  Basically from him I heard

Page 27149

 1     about the situation in Vlasenica and beyond at any given moment.

 2        Q.   Was it him who told you about this purported notebook entry?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  I think now -- well, no, it's not that I think.

 4     Perhaps further on in the transcript.  In most places, well, certainly --

 5     now whether he actually told me about this, probably, because he was

 6     there on the spot.  And this is exactly what he did in operative terms,

 7     and the public security station in Vlasenica.  At that time he was chief

 8     of the public security station in Vlasenica.

 9        Q.   I'm going to ask you to focus your answer on the question I ask

10     you.

11             So I take it that you do not recall now whether it was

12     Mr. Bjelanovic who told you about this notebook entry.  Have I correctly

13     understood your answer, yes or no?

14        A.   All the information that is important from the public security

15     station of Vlasenica, I had all of that, as I talked to my family friend.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, is it true that you're not certain whether

17     you -- whether Mr. Bjelanovic told you about the notebook entry?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two men, Radomir Bjelanovic and

19     perhaps Zoran Zivanovic, but I think it is Radomir Bjelanovic.  I think.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not certain.  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, given this time distance

22     whether I'm sure or not sure ...

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, no one blames you for you.  But we'd like

24     to know whether you know or whether you just think or whether you're not

25     certain.  That's the issue and you're not blamed in any way for not

Page 27150

 1     remembering certain matters.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Now you heard from one of those two men, you didn't see the

 4     original document at the time it was discovered, did you?

 5        A.   The original ... now was it the original or not?  I don't wish to

 6     say that.  I don't wish to state whether I saw the original or a copy.

 7     It is certain that I did see it in that period though.

 8        Q.   You don't know, then, if anything was added to it after it was

 9     discovered, do you?

10        A.   What I saw is that, what was on the screen.  All of these

11     important things that I talked about, I saw them then.  And then I

12     understood it as I said today.

13        Q.   Sir, I'm going to ask you again to focus on the question.

14             Between the time it was discovered and the time you first saw it,

15     you don't know whether anything was added to the document as it was

16     found; right?

17        A.   Could you repeat your question?  I don't think that the

18     interpretation is good.

19        Q.   You don't know whether anything was added to the document between

20     the time when it was found and the time when you first saw it, do you?

21        A.   In that period of a few days, of course, I don't know whether

22     something was added or not.  How could I know that?

23        Q.   And in April of 1992, the Muslim holiday Bajram fell that month;

24     right?

25        A.   Yes, yes.

Page 27151

 1        Q.   And Muslims slaughter animals for feasts for Bajram; right?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And in terms of organising for defence, in early April 1992 there

 4     had been conflict in Bijeljina and Zvornik, hadn't there?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.

 6        Q.   And doesn't it stand to reason that people in municipalities near

 7     there would be concerned about conflicts spilling over into their areas

 8     and want to defend themselves?

 9        A.   All of us were more concerned in that period because of the

10     Croatian army that entered Posavina, and everything that was done to the

11     Serbs by the regular Croat army in the area between Brod, Derventa and

12     Modrica.  So it was both Serbs and Muslims.  Those would come later.

13     Because this had been going on for already a month and a bit more than

14     that and that situation affected us a lot more, both of us, because we

15     both saw that there is no state, that the state cannot protect us.  And

16     that is why we sat down to reach agreement.

17             Now what you are trying to say about Bajram, Kurban Bajram, it

18     was on the 4th of April and on this page, sir, the first item is quite

19     clear.  Our work is being assessed and in the first item -- bring it back

20     and you will see.  Commission worked well on the basis of the conditions

21     that it worked in.  Given the conditions it worked in.  And that

22     commission could only have been from the 13th onwards.  So you take a

23     look at that.

24        Q.   Sir, again, you've confirmed that you don't know what was in the

25     document when it was found and what was added later, do you?

Page 27152

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have confirmed that.  I've

 3     confirmed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And just to complete my questions in this area, I'd put to you

 6     that you were asked in the Krajisnik case why the protocol fell apart.

 7     You answered for four pages, so I won't read the entire thing.  You

 8     mentioned rumours, you mentioned speculation, you mentioned propaganda.

 9     You did not mention this notebook entry.  So I'd put to you that you, in

10     fact, learned of this notebook entry between your testimony in the

11     Krajisnik case and today, not in April 1992.

12        A.   Sir, it is absolutely easy to refute what you're saying.  Bring

13     this back to the screen so that Their Honours can take a look at this.

14     And you will see that that part is --

15        Q.   Sir, I'm going to --

16        A.   From Glas Birca, Glas Birca, that paper from the third of March.

17     So what you're saying just now is and I'll tell you --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm stopping you.  What the document says

19     is a matter different from when you learned about it.

20             What Mr. Traldi puts to you is the following, since you did not

21     refer to this document in any way in the Krajisnik case, he infers from

22     that and puts that to you, that you learned about this document only

23     after your testimony.  He is not stating that the document did not exist

24     at that time but that you learned about it only after your Krajisnik

25     testimony and gives you an opportunity to respond to that.

Page 27153

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The entire population of

 2     Vlasenica, Muslims and Serbs, were aware of that document.  It was

 3     published in the newspaper Glas Birca.  I have it in my own documentation

 4     and that one page we can see from that.  So what you are saying is wrong.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 19819.  I'm turning to a

 7     different subject.

 8        Q.   Now, this is a decision dated the 4th of April, 1992 establishing

 9     a Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica.  This was signed

10     on your behalf because you were in Tuzla with General Jankovic that day;

11     right?

12        A.   No, no, no.  No, not with General Jankovic.  It was on the 3rd of

13     April.  I was with him on the 3rd of April whereas this list says the 4th

14     of April.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31468 page 28.

16        Q.   You've just been shown this same document in your testimony in

17     the Karadzic case.

18             Sorry, I have the page number wrong, I think.  Could we try page

19     36, please.

20             So you're being asked in a question that ends at the top of the

21     page about this document.  You say in line 4:  "Just a moment.  On the

22     4th of April, I have it somewhere in one of the paragraphs here.  I was

23     in Tuzla then" -- and the attorney questioning you referred you to a

24     paragraph of your statement.

25             But you said:  "I'm trying to explain.  It says the 4th of April.

Page 27154

 1     That's why my signature is not there.  As for my paragraphs, there is

 2     somewhere where it says ... on the 4th of April, 1992, I was in Tuzla.  I

 3     went to see General Jankovic.  But there's nothing to be disputed.  The

 4     4th of April.  You know that it is basically the beginning of the war."

 5             So your testimony in the Karadzic case was that this was signed

 6     for you on the 4th of April because you were in Tuzla with

 7     General Jankovic.  Do you stand by that testimony today?

 8        A.   Bad translation.  Bad translation.  I did not say that.  But this

 9     is what I did say --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, are you challenging what is -- okay.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it will be verified on the basis of the audio.

13     If you say that my words were mistranslated into the Karadzic case.

14     We'll get the audio ready, it can be listened to again, and we'll see

15     whether there's any wrong translation.  So if that's the issue we'll do

16     that and there's no need to further explain unless ...

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   You added --

19        A.   Just a moment.

20        Q.   Sorry --

21        A.   Look, in the statement in Radovan Karadzic's trial and in my

22     statement here, it is clearly stated that on the 3rd of April, I was in

23     Tuzla with General Savo Jankovic.  Take a look at both statements, and

24     that's for sure.  However, over here, when I saw this document obviously

25     since I saw it for the first time, I mean, it was very quick, and it was

Page 27155

 1     in a hurry so I didn't notice that the month was April.  Well, it's

 2     possible that I said that I was there then, but when I testified in

 3     Radovan Karadzic's case, and also in General Ratko Mladic's case, it is

 4     clearly stated that I was then in Tuzla with General Jankovic and this is

 5     the period.  This is the period.  Up there.  That false heading of this

 6     decision that you, from the Prosecutor's office, tried to sneak in, while

 7     we are working on the agreement --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You can tell us about facts.  Allegation and

 9     accusations can be put forward through Defence counsel.  If you have told

10     Mr. Stojanovic about any falsification, you certainly pay attention to

11     it.  But you are supposed to tell us about the facts and it may be clear

12     that in your testimony in the Karadzic case and apparently you do not

13     challenge that anymore, you told that the signature on the document was

14     not there before because you were in Tuzla where you went to see

15     General Jankovic.  On the 4th of April.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wrong, wrong --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it is correct that the signature

19     is not mine and over here this was just -- this one moment I mean, made a

20     mistake, the date --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Signature is not mine.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  There's no dispute about that, I think.  If you make

24     a mistake rather than think about that before you accuse our interpreters

25     of giving wrong interpretations, yes?  We'll not accept such behaviour

Page 27156

 1     any further.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   You also testified about this document, "Let's be clear, the

 6     Crisis Staffs were formed whenever the situation was critical for the

 7     people."

 8             The Crisis Staff in Vlasenica was, in fact, formed on the 4th of

 9     April, 1992; right?

10        A.   No, that's not right.  I don't know about that because from the

11     30th of March until the 11th of April, we, this group, was working on the

12     agreement, the one that is attached here, and that was adopted by the

13     assembly.  Milenko Stanic and I and others were on this group, and --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know whether the Crisis Staff was formed on

15     the 4th of April, yes or no?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it not formed, or do you not know when it was

18     formed, on that date?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that meeting, even if it had

20     been formed, I wasn't there.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  No one asked you whether you were there or not.

22     You leave it open that it was formed on the 4th of April, if I understand

23     you well?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  But you -- but you do not know?  Because if you

Page 27157

 1     know, tell us what date it was when it was formed.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't even know when it was

 3     formed because I wasn't there.  If it was formed.  If it was formed.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness apparently doesn't know when a Crisis

 5     Staff was formed, if it was formed at all.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  I tender this document.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31468 receives --

10             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 19819 receives number P6839,

12     Your Honours.

13             [Overlapping speakers] ...

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             Mr. Mladic, one more loud word and you'll be removed from the

16     courtroom.  It's now two or three times today that you spoke aloud.  You

17     know exactly how to communicate with counsel without raising your voice,

18     without speaking at a volume audible for others.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Now in Milici municipality, there was a War Presidency in 1992,

22     right, but you did not serve as a member?

23        A.   What was that?  May or July?  May 1992 or July 1995?

24        Q.   What I suggested to you was that in 1992, in Milici municipality,

25     there was a War Presidency of which you were not a member; correct?

Page 27158

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And I think you've anticipated my next question.  There was also

 3     a War Presidency in Milici municipality beginning in July 1995; right?

 4        A.   Yes, there was, but, actually, everything functioned as if it did

 5     not exist.  There was still an assembly and an Executive Board but in

 6     accordance with the decision or order of Radovan Karadzic or the

 7     National Assembly, yes, it did exist and it was supposed to send reports

 8     every month, yes.

 9        Q.   And then you were the president that time; right?

10        A.   President of the assembly.  The president of the assembly is, at

11     the same time, the president of the War Presidency.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Could we please have 65 ter 04480.

13        Q.   Now, this is a report you sent in your capacity as president of

14     the War Presidency on the 18th of August, 1995.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And could we have page 2 in the English, please.

16        Q.   Directing your attention to point 2, you write:  "We trust that

17     you are aware of the security situation in Milici municipality, but just

18     to use an example, the last three times parts of Milici municipality and

19     the surrounding area were combed, 35 Turks ... were killed and three were

20     captured."

21             So my question for you is:  Was it common for you to refer to

22     Bosnian Muslims as Turks in your official documents?

23        A.   No.  Just soldiers.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender this document.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 27159

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4480 receives number P6840,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Staying with 1995 for a moment, in paragraph 76 of your

 6     statement, you describe how the bodies of Muslims who you say were killed

 7     in July 1995 crossing the Djugum-Kaldrmica-Konjevic Polje road were

 8     collected and buried in several graves along that road.  I have a few

 9     questions about this aspect of your evidence.

10             First, while you don't use the words Nova Kasaba, what you're

11     describing is the road between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   This area is near the border between the Milici, Vlasenica and

14     Bratunac municipalities; right?

15        A.   Well, if Milici and Vlasenica is one municipality for you, then

16     yes.

17        Q.   In 1995, Milici and Vlasenica were separate municipalities in the

18     RS; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I'm going to re-ask my question.  This is an area near the

21     borders between Milici, Vlasenica, and Bratunac municipalities; correct?

22        A.   This is the area between the municipalities of -- this is the

23     area between the municipalities -- this is at war time.  So it is between

24     the Muslim municipality and the municipality of Vlasenica.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31486.

Page 27160

 1        Q.   And while it comes up, Nova Kasaba, by establishment, was part of

 2     Milici municipality; right?

 3        A.   In 1992, you saw that agreement, it's clearly stated that

 4     Nova Kasaba belongs to the municipality of Muslim Vlasenica.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Now we have partially that cleared.  But since my

 7     colleague cannot follow English, the answer that starts on 36, page line

 8     6, specially line 7 and 8 should be maybe clarified because that was not

 9     the answer the witness gave.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you perhaps --

11             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. LUKIC:  It was recorded.  So it is between the Muslim

14     municipality and the municipality of Vlasenica.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's what the witness said, yes --

16             MR. LUKIC:  No --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is recorded as having said --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, but --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but you --

20             MR. LUKIC:  But now he, in 36, 13 --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we --

22             MR. LUKIC:  -- he explained --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- let me just -- Witness, part of one of your

24     answers was that Nova Kasaba is between the Muslim municipality and the

25     municipality of Vlasenica.  That's how it was recorded and interpreted

Page 27161

 1     for us.  Is that correct or did you say something else?  It is between

 2     what and what?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nova Kasaba is a settlement that,

 4     when the division was carried out on the 13th of April 1992, came to

 5     belong to the Muslim municipality of Nova Kasaba.  No, the Muslim

 6     municipality of Vlasenica.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Was there a functioning government of the Muslim municipality of

10     Vlasenica in July 1995?

11        A.   In July 1995, it did not exist in that area.

12        Q.   Now, this is an image that's been generated by our mapping unit

13     based on internal data.  For your orientation, we see Nova Kasaba at the

14     bottom, the football pitch identified just north up the road, and then

15     further up, there are two triangles identified as Nova Kasaba (1996) and

16     Nova Kasaba (1999).

17             Do you see those?

18        A.   Nova Kasaba (1999), yes.  No, that's not Nova Kasaba.  There's

19     the territory of Bratunac municipality.  This stream that goes westerly

20     from Svilile where these three houses are, constitutes a border between

21     let's say Vlasenica and Milici.  So this triangle indicating Nova Kasaba

22     (1999) is --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down and repeat

24     the rest of his answer.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last part of your answer when

Page 27162

 1     you referred to Nova Kasaba (1999), you said that was ...

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the territory of Bratunac

 3     municipality.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Which municipality would the football pitch have been in?

 6        A.   This football pitch is, as I said, on the border but in the

 7     former single municipality of Vlasenica but after the division of 1992,

 8     it was allocated to the Muslim municipality of Vlasenica, and it's been

 9     recorded as such.

10        Q.   Which functioning municipal government was governing that area in

11     1995?  The Serb municipality of Vlasenica, or the -- or the municipality

12     of Milici?

13        A.   In actual fact, until the division in the post-war period, this

14     was a no man's land.  The Milici municipality ended far behind

15     Nova Kasaba on the ridge called Kapava Stijena, although you cannot see

16     it there.

17        Q.   Now, the triangles that we see on the map reflect the two mass

18     graves that the Office of the Prosecutor is aware of along this road

19     where you've said those bodies were buried.  Do they match your

20     recollection as to where the bodies you were describing were buried?

21        A.   What you see written here, Nova Kasaba (1999), I've never seen

22     this grave.  I've never even seen it being excavated.

23             As for the grave, it could have been there in the year 1996.

24     It's a grave under the fly-over on the road where the armed forces of the

25     28th Division committed the major breakthrough towards Cerska and there

Page 27163

 1     were dead bodies left there.  I suppose that the unit that carried out

 2     sanitation measures only dug out a grave near the stream and buried the

 3     bodies there.

 4        Q.   Now, when it says 1996, you're aware, aren't you, that an

 5     exhumation was carried out in that area in 1996?

 6        A.   There were several exhumations there, and I cannot remember

 7     whether it was in 1996 or in some other year.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, before I move on, I'll tender this map.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31486 receives number P6841,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             Could I ask you one question, Witness.  You earlier said

14     Nova Kasaba (1999).  In that could not be Nova Kasaba because the stream

15     there is the demarcation of -- now, looking at this map, would you agree

16     with me that Nova Kasaba (1996), that triangle, is at the same side of

17     that stream as Nova Kasaba (1999).  The triangles are both situated to

18     the east of the stream.  Would you agree with that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The triangles are as they have been

20     plotted on, the triangles.  Where this triangle is, there were houses

21     before the war and there are still houses standing there.  I don't know

22     why --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The reason why I'm asking you this is because

24     earlier when you said this could not be Nova Kasaba because of the stream

25     being the border, that I understood that as a possible confusion that you

Page 27164

 1     thought that Nova Kasaba (1999) was at the other side of the stream

 2     compared to Nova Kasaba (1996), whereas, as I see them on this map,

 3     they're both on the same side of the stream, that is, the easterly side.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  That's not the stream

 5     that I said.  I told you that the border-line between the municipalities

 6     of Vlasenica and Bratunac, if you look to the right, Nova Kasaba (1999)

 7     you can see the word Svilile.  Now look at this elevation to 1996.  It

 8     descends and comes to the border between the municipalities.  There are

 9     houses and a restaurant and therefore why this area is called Djugum

10     after the restaurant.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  My concern about a misinterpretation have been

12     removed.  You referred to something different than I thought you did.

13             Mr. Traldi.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Sir, since you suggested that the Nova Kasaba (1996) location

16     might be the one you're talking about, I'd like to look at another

17     exhibit, Exhibit P1834, page 32.

18             And while it comes up, the substantive evidence explaining the

19     locations that are represented by the triangles is found, for instance,

20     in the evidence of experts Haglund and Baraybar.

21             And page 32 of this document, please.  It will be photographic so

22     if we could just zoom in on the one page.

23             Now, Mr. Haglund has analysed the graves exhumed in 1996

24     identified by the triangle you mentioned and discovered that 27 of the 33

25     victims found there were found with their hands tied behind their backs.

Page 27165

 1     Now this is a picture, in fact, it's two pictures of the one of the

 2     bodies exhumed at that location.  You can see that his hands are bound;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   I'd put to you that your evidence that the people buried along

 6     the road in these graves were killed trying to cross the road is false.

 7     That the great majority of them were found with their hands tied behind

 8     their backs and they were, in fact, captured and then murdered.

 9             Do you have any comment on that?

10        A.   Yes.  On the 13th of July, I passed along this road.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What year?  13th of July what year?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995.

13             In this section to the right, towards Svilile and the rest of it,

14     I saw dead bodies.  I also saw behind the houses that I mentioned also I

15     saw bodies which were in kind of fetus position but, sir, as president of

16     the municipality I'd like to say something.  During the breakthrough

17     carried out by the 28th Division above Gornji Mratinci, two members of my

18     former battalion were taken by the Muslims as prisoners.

19        Q.   Sir --

20        A.   -- until this very day their fate is unknown.  It is possible

21     that these are two -- these two men.  We are still searching for them.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean the two on the pictures could be those?

23     Mr. Traldi, have these --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is possible.  Nobody knows

25     anything about what happened to them.

Page 27166

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  So what you're telling us that it's possible that

 2     the people you lost may have been captured and may have been then killed

 3     and are the ones who are depicted here?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not perhaps.  They were captured

 5     and taken away.  These are perhaps exactly these two.  I suppose that DNA

 6     will be obtained from their family members.

 7             Do you want to hear the names?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, has DNA identification been performed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, on the victims in this grave have been

10     confirmed to be Muslims.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we are not interested in your suggestions,

12     in your allegations, your theories.  These bodies, the DNA was taken from

13     the bodies and they have been identified and they are not the men you

14     suggest they are.

15             Could you please stick to factual knowledge you have in answering

16     any questions rather than to give room for your, what seems to be quite

17     some imagination rather than knowledge of facts.

18             Mr. Traldi, please proceed.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything I said is a fact.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, one more such comment and we'll finish your

21     testimony in this court because are you not here in a debating club.

22     You're here as a witness and you should carefully listen to the questions

23     and to the instructions given to you.

24             Is that clear?  You're called by the Defence, and we'd like to

25     hear proper evidence as presented by the Defence, because that's as

Page 27167

 1     important for us as any other evidence, but just allow us to do it.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Sir, with that, I want to turn to your evidence about 1992.

 5             Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P188.

 6             This is a report from the East Bosnia Corps to the Main Staff

 7     dated the 7th of June, 1992.  I'd direct your attention to point 8.  In

 8     the English, I think we'll have to go to page 2.  Here it reads:  "In the

 9     area of Zvornik we have around 500 prisoners, and in the area of

10     Vlasenica around 800."

11             Do you see that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   At this point, June 1992, Zvornik and Vlasenica were in the

14     East Bosnia Corps' area of responsibility; right?

15        A.   Well, the 7th of June ... 7th of June ... it is possible.

16        Q.   So what we see here is functional communication from those

17     municipalities up to the Main Staff about the prisoners being held there

18     at that point; right?

19        A.   I haven't read it all.  If you allow me to read everything?

20        Q.   Sir, all I'd asked you about was point 8, which was one sentence.

21     Can I take it that you've finished reading that sentence?

22        A.   I've read it.

23        Q.   Those 800 in Vlasenica were being held in Susica camp; right?

24        A.   I don't know.  It doesn't say anything there.  But I don't

25     understand it.  It says at the top, the 7th of June, 1990.

Page 27168

 1        Q.   Can we agree that in June 1990, there was no Army of

 2     Republika Srpska and no East Bosnia Corps?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I know nothing about the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  I

 4     had too much business to take care of in the defence of the mine, so I

 5     don't know anything about it.  Since it says 1990, that's the only thing

 6     I can see.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are not invited to comment on the date.

 8     This Chamber can see the date.  The parties can see the date.  You're

 9     asked about what is reported here, there being around 800 prisoners in

10     Vlasenica, whether they were held in Susica camp in 1992, to your

11     knowledge.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge about that, nor

13     did I have any at the time.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   At this point, you weren't part of the East Bosnia's Corps'

16     reporting structure to the Main Staff; right?

17        A.   You got it completely wrong.  The 7th of June.  As of the 1st of

18     May until 18th July, we were constantly engaged in combat on the road

19     leading to the mine.  It can easily be remembered because, on the 10th of

20     June, a village just before the mine was burned.

21        Q.   Sir, I think you've answered a different question that the one I

22     asked.

23             Let me try it this way.  When you were the commander at the mine,

24     who did you get your orders from?

25        A.   While I was the commander of the defence of the mine, and I came

Page 27169

 1     there sometime after the breakthrough which would, say, on or about 18th

 2     of July, and that is when I arrived at the mine.  That's it.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- witness, again, that's not the question.

 4     From whom did you receive orders at that point in time?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, the brigade commander

 6     was last name Andric, I cannot remember his first name.  However, with

 7     regard to the mine, I didn't receive orders from anyone.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's the answer to the question which we

 9     would love to hear two minutes ago.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Now could we have P6564.

12        Q.   Now, this is an instruction by Branko Djeric then the prime

13     minister of Republika Srpska to the Boksit mine to supply fuel to

14     DD Romanijaprevoz in Pale, dated the 24th of May, 1992.  So at that time

15     the authorities in Pale had communication with the Boxsit company; right?

16        A.   I think you'd better ask Mr. Dukic about this.  He was the

17     manager of Boksit.

18        Q.   And Boksit was the largest company in the area and employed about

19     3200 people; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And Mr. Dukic was a member of the SDS Main Board and

22     Executive Board; right?

23        A.   This is already the period when the Serbian Democratic Party

24     suspended all its activities.  It can be found in documents.  I wasn't

25     interested in that at all.

Page 27170

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Stop.  Stop you again.  Was he a member of the SDS

 2     Main Board at that time, whether functioning or not is a different

 3     question.  Was Mr. Dukic a member?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that he was ever a

 5     member of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You apparently do not know but you think he

 7     was not.

 8             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Was he a member of the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic

11     Party?

12        A.   Not in this period.  I don't know how long he was a member of the

13     Executive Board, which is a completely different thing.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P3735.

15        Q.   Now, this is the Vlasenica Serb Municipality decision appointing

16     its War Commission.  Do you see the date is the 16th of June, 1992?

17        A.   I do.

18             MR. TRALDI:  And can we have P3046.

19        Q.   Now, this is a decision by President Karadzic confirming the

20     appointment of the members of the Vlasenica War Commission.  Do you see

21     the date is 17 June 1992?

22        A.   17th June.

23        Q.   Sir, I'm showing you these documents because in paragraph 83 of

24     your statement, you say:  "We were unable to get in touch with the state

25     and military leadership immediately because the communications were down

Page 27171

 1     and the roads were not passable."

 2             So I'd put to you that these documents show that your evidence in

 3     that regard was not truthful, that there was rapid and functional

 4     communication along both the military and political lines in June of

 5     1992.  That's true, isn't it?

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think, in all

 7     fairness to the witness, I think he should be shown paragraph 33 -- 83 so

 8     that he can see exactly and in its entirety what he said there before

 9     giving an answer.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness would be shown paragraph 83, he can

11     read it during the break and then the question will be put again to him

12     after the break.

13             Mr. Traldi, you quoted a portion of it.

14             MR. TRALDI:  I did, Mr. President.  I quoted the specific portion

15     beginning at the end which I was asserting was clearly not truthful,

16     based on those documents.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Witness, we'd like to see you after the break.

18     Could you follow the usher and be back in 20 minutes.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take that break, Mr. Traldi, and in the

21     absence of the witness, it may be that Mr. Stojanovic has some concerns

22     about the word "later" which appears halfway that paragraph, and where

23     the context in which "later" appears is not sharply defined.  That may be

24     one of the issues Mr. Stojanovic had on his mind.

25             Could you please keep that in mind when further examining the

Page 27172

 1     witness on that matter.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  And, just for the record and to

 3     facilitate preparations, I'm not sure where I am relative to my estimate

 4     but I expect to finish in the first half of the upcoming session.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good.  And that upcoming session will start

 6     at 20 minutes past 12.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When I earlier said that DNA tests - and I'll just

10     find it, if you'll give me a second - when I earlier said that these

11     bodies, the DNA was taken from the bodies and they have been identified

12     and they are not the men you suggested they are, of course, what I was

13     doing was referring to what was --

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- presented as evidence in that respect which, if I

16     remember well, was that the challenged, at least the identification was

17     not challenged by the Defence and not as a factual finding of the Chamber

18     but just reference to what the evidence had told us until now.  That's

19     hereby on the record.

20             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   Sir, have you reviewed paragraph 83 of your statement during the

23     break?

24        A.   It's nowhere to be found.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Can we call it up on the screen then, please.  It's

Page 27173

 1     D699, if I recall.

 2        Q.   So I'd ask you to read just that paragraph to yourself quietly,

 3     and then say yes when you've finished reading it.

 4        A.   I've read it.

 5        Q.   Before the break, we saw a report from the East Bosnia Corps to

 6     the Main Staff dated the 7th of June, a request from the prime minister

 7     to the Boksit Milici company dated 24th of May and communications from

 8     the Vlasenica Serb municipality to Mr. Karadzic on the 16th of June and

 9     Karadzic confirming that decision by the Vlasenica Serb municipality on

10     the 17th of June.

11             So what I'd put to you was your evidence in this paragraph that

12     we were unable to get in touch with the state and military leadership,

13     was not truthful than even at that time at the beginning of the war there

14     were rapid functional communications between Vlasenica and Milici and the

15     RS leadership.  That's true, isn't it?

16        A.   No.  The beginning -- I consider April to be the beginning, and

17     the 19th of May.  While the JNA was still there in the area, and that's

18     it.  It's clear to me.  That's the beginning.  From the 19th of May, that

19     was a different period of establishing the Army of Republika Srpska, and

20     so on and so forth.

21        Q.   I have two brief follow-up questions.

22             So when you said "we didn't have communications," you were

23     referring to the period before the 19th of May; is that right?

24        A.   Yes, April, May.  Let's say all that, this transition period.

25     And that pertains to this paragraph.

Page 27174

 1        Q.   And at the beginning of April, you've given evidence you yourself

 2     were meeting with the JNA General Jankovic.  You were able to go to Tuzla

 3     to do it.  You had communication at that time; right?

 4        A.   That's March, the 4th of March.

 5        Q.   Sir, can you repeat the date you just gave?  You may have been

 6     recorded incorrectly.

 7        A.   That is the 4th of March, the 4th of March, 1992.  The day after

 8     the Croatian army entered, I was at the command of General -- General -

 9     I've just said his name - Savo Jankovic.

10        Q.   Sir, I want to talk -- turn briefly to a couple of the events in

11     April -- sorry, in May and June of 1992 discussed in your statement.

12             In paragraphs 52 through 54, discuss what you call the incident

13     that occurred in Zaklopaca on the 16th of May, 1992.

14             When you say "the incident," over 60 Muslim men were killed in

15     Zaklopaca that day; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In paragraph 53, you say:  "This occurred when JNA soldiers who

18     had left Tuzla and friends and relatives of the soldiers who died at

19     Milici decided to take revenge on the nearest Muslim village."

20             How did you learn that?

21        A.   I learned that -- I learned the real truth from a man who was

22     there on the 16th of May, and who was a witness here at the trial of

23     Radovan Karadzic.  For me, that's the real truth, in the real sense of

24     the word.

25        Q.   Now, can you give the name of this witness in the Karadzic trial?

Page 27175

 1     And if you'd prefer we go into private session to do it, we can do that.

 2        A.   No, no, no.  Not necessary.  He spoke publicly.  Everybody knows

 3     him, Muslims and Serbs.  It is Bozidar Trisic.

 4        Q.   So the information you're giving here, you learned from

 5     Mr. Trisic in 2013; is that right?

 6        A.   In that original sense, as he spoke here.  And I heard about it

 7     earlier on as well.  The federal prosecutor's office -- well, actually, I

 8     heard about it from him, what he said before this Court in 2013 I had

 9     heard from him.

10        Q.   I want to turn now to Susica camp.  In paragraphs 35 through 37

11     of your statement, you provide information about who was held at Susica,

12     who decided to house Muslim there, and Muslim prisoners being taken from

13     there to Batkovic camp in Bijeljina.

14             When were you first told that people were being held prisoner at

15     Susica?

16        A.   Prisoners at Susica, well, that's probably that period -- well,

17     maybe the end of 1992.  In 1992.  I think it may be the end.  Maybe even

18     earlier.  In view of all the places where I was at the front line.  Well,

19     maybe it was earlier too.  Maybe.  I cannot be very precise now.  It's

20     certainly -- now, if I returned, say, before the 1st of November ... I

21     cannot say.  I cannot say exactly.  Maybe when I became commander of this

22     battalion.  Maybe.  Maybe earlier too.  But I doubt it because once I was

23     up there at Rudnik for 48 days, successive days; once also for 30 days.

24     So 78 days.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31466, page 244.

Page 27176

 1        Q.   Now, at line 11, you were asked:  "Were you aware at that time

 2     that this camp was established?"  Speaking of Susica.

 3             You responded:  "I state that in this period, I did not know of

 4     the existence of the Susica camp.  I state that with full

 5     responsibility."

 6             You were asked:  "When did you learn about it for the first

 7     time?"

 8             You responded:  "I found out about it much later, and that was

 9     through another Serb man.  And I must say --"

10             And can we scroll down.

11             You were asked again when.  And at the bottom of the page, lines

12     23 and 24, you said:  "It's possible that ... was in late 1993, perhaps

13     1994."

14             You were not truthful with the Krajisnik Chamber when you gave

15     that testimony, were you?

16        A.   I said something similar today.  I don't know what the

17     interpretation that you received was.  I said that today as well, 1992

18     and perhaps later ...

19        Q.   Turning to page 246, same document, and at the very bottom,

20     beginning at line 23, said:  "When I already knew that this really

21     existed, I asked one man, a Serb, what was actually going on in Susica,

22     and he told me:  Don't worry, I've talked to a friend of mine," and then

23     we turn to the next page:  "... a neighbour, who is a Muslim, and he told

24     me the following about the Susica camp."

25             And to summarise your evidence over the next ten lines or so, and

Page 27177

 1     I'll trust that my friends will correct me if I'm summarising it

 2     imprecisely.  You said you had heard the nights were bad in Vlasenica

 3     even though the curfew had been introduced.  There was still a population

 4     of ethnic Muslims there and some of them went to the cabins, complete

 5     with beds, to spend the night and would return home in the morning.

 6             Now, in fact, you say in your statement to this Chamber that you

 7     know people were held prisoner there.  You didn't tell the Krajisnik

 8     Chamber that either, did you?

 9        A.   Everything I said was the truth, but obviously you are

10     misinterpreting that.  This is something that was said to me by a man and

11     it was a Muslim who told him.  So that's what you read out at the very

12     beginning.

13        Q.   To be completely precise, in paragraph 37 of your statement,

14     Exhibit D699, at the end of the paragraph, you say:  "I heard that a

15     number of Muslim soldiers, taken prisoners by our soldiers, were put up

16     in this facility."

17             My question was:  You did not disclose to the Krajisnik Chamber

18     that you knew people were being held prisoner there, did you?

19        A.   I don't remember what I said, but I can't find it here now.  I

20     testified for five days in Krajisnik.  But I do know that in this place

21     that you call a camp, first refugees from Gorazde were put up there and

22     that's what I said for sure.  And, after that, Muslims with their

23     families came there.  They would spend the night and then on the

24     following day they would return and this was for the sake of their

25     safety.  This is what a Muslim was saying.  I remember in this lawyer's

Page 27178

 1     office; Todorovic's office.  I knew then and I know now that in that

 2     period of time, the first 200 or whatever prisoners, I think that it's

 3     somewhere in there, from Malina were put up in this collection centre,

 4     and then from there, they were transferred to Batkovic.  Of course, I

 5     learned that earlier on or, rather, it is well known --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all unnecessary

 7     microphones be switched off.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw Muslims from Vlasenica.

 9     I never saw prisoners in this Susica camp, of course, because once I did

10     see them when arriving in Vlasenica, they were clearing the forest above

11     the asphalt road at the entrance into Vlasenica.  If they were from

12     Susica.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   What made you think they were from Susica?

15        A.   If they were from Susica.  I don't know what the interpretation

16     you received was.

17        Q.   Let me ask differently.  You were discussing Susica.  You brought

18     up these prisoners who -- these persons who were clearing the forest

19     above the asphalt road.  Why did you bring them up in the context of

20     Susica?

21        A.   Yes.  If they were from Susica.

22        Q.   I don't think you've answered my question.  You were talking

23     about Susica.  You brought this group of people up.  What was the reason

24     that - in the context of talking about Susica - you brought up this group

25     of people who were clearing the asphalt road?

Page 27179

 1        A.   If they were from Susica.  This is the third time I'm saying it.

 2     I don't know how they are interpreting this to you.

 3        Q.   I won't push further as to the reason.

 4             What was the approximate date you saw those people?

 5        A.   I cannot ... I mean, I'd even make a mistake if I were just to

 6     tell you the month.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we go into private session, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my cross-examination --

Page 27180

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We do that in open session then.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  And in open session, that completes my

 6     cross-examination.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             Judge Fluegge has one question before we give an opportunity to

 9     the Defence to re-examine the witness.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I just want to clarify one date.

11             You were asked, again, about the meeting with General Jankovic in

12     Tuzla.  On page 50, lines 3 and 4, you said:  "It was on the 4th of

13     March."

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Earlier today - that can be found on page 31 -

16     you said, in line 5 to 7:  "Look in the statement in Radovan Karadzic's

17     trial and in the statement here.  It is clearly stated that on 3th of

18     April I was in Tuzla with General Savo Jankovic."

19             Which of the two is true?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth is that at the command of

21     Savo Jankovic, that I was there the day after the Croatian troops entered

22     Brod.  And I said that in one place in Radovan Karadzic's statement.  I'm

23     not sure if it's the 3rd or the 4th but I know that it was one day after

24     the Croatian troops entered Brod.  And you can check that.  And there's

25     no dispute there.

Page 27181

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You contradicted yourself.  Because first you

 2     said 3rd of April, and later you said beginning of March.  Which of the

 3     two is true in your testimony today?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 4th of March.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why, then, did you say earlier today it was on

 6     the 3rd of April?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of April, the Croatian

 8     army entered Brod in Posavina.  And I was over there, a day later, and I

 9     described why I remember that because Colonel Stublincevic arrived from

10     Brod --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I'm not asking for that.  I have no

12     further questions.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the

14     witness?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that,

16     again, we have a problem, and with your leave, I would like to clarify

17     the matter.  I would like to indicate line 57 -- page 57.  Line 7 of the

18     temporary transcript, and line 57 -- no, page 57, line 4 of LiveNote.  In

19     order for all of this to be clear --

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Savkic, once again, please, let's take it

22     slowly do tell the Trial Chamber to the best of your recollection when

23     was the date when you came to General Savo Jankovic?

24        A.   The date was the 4th of March, 1992.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 27182

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We have to insist, earlier you explained us in

 2     detail, or at least it was discussed in detail, why you had not signed

 3     that document in which it was described, that the Crisis Staff was

 4     established.  That was a document dated the 4th of April.  We dealt with

 5     it in quite some detail because you explained, or you had explained in a

 6     previous case, that you could not sign it because you had been meeting

 7     the day before or the day itself, that is, 3rd or 4th of April, with

 8     General Jankovic.

 9             Now, that was all about the 3rd and the 4th of April.

10             In response to questions put to you by Judge Fluegge, you

11     confirmed, again, that it was April, because you said it was the day

12     after the Croatia army entered Brod and you said that was on the 3rd of

13     April, and now you're moving back to March again.  This is highly

14     confusing, and I just want to make that clear to you, that moving three,

15     four times from April to March, confuses the Chamber.

16             Do you have any final answer to that, or was it the answer that

17     you gave to Mr. Stojanovic?  Was it 3rd of April, or was it 3rd of March?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand you.

19     The meeting with Jankovic or the Croatian army entering.  What's the date

20     that you would like -- I mean, what's the date that you're interested in?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Meeting with Jankovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with Jankovic on the 4th of

23     March, 1992, in Tuzla.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the other date, then, the Croatian army

25     entering Brod, what date was that?

Page 27183

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day before, the 3rd of March,

 2     1992.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

 5     can we look again at D750, which is ...

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  705.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Which is a temporary number

 8     assigned to this exhibit.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I did put some questions to you,

10     Mr. Stojanovic, in relation to that document.  We'd like to receive an

11     answer as soon as possible.  But ...

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely the reason why

13     I asked for it and I have a question in that regard.

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, in the B/C/S version, in the middle of the upper

15     part of the document, there is a text written by pencil which says

16     attachment number 12.  In the English translation that had been uploaded

17     earlier, it reads:  Attachment number 16.

18             Can you see these two numbers?

19        A.   Appendix number 12?

20        Q.   And on the right-hand side, you have an English translation at

21     the very top, the first line --

22        A.   Yes, yes, it says here number 16.

23        Q.   My question is:  Do you know whose handwriting is this?  And I'm

24     referring to attachment number 12 written in pencil?

25        A.   That's my handwriting.  That's my handwriting.  And I entered

Page 27184

 1     that for the purposes of Radovan Karadzic's trial.

 2        Q.   What motivated you to write this appendix number 12?  What is it

 3     supposed to signify?

 4        A.   A lot of things.  A lot of things.  For one, that the leadership

 5     of the Patriotic League had been established, because all the members,

 6     Ferhid Hodzic --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I'll stop you.  Most likely there is a

 8     misunderstanding.  Where you wrote appendix 12.  This document was an

 9     appendix to what exactly?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was attached.  But before that,

11     I would have to look at my draft to tell you exactly.  But, once again,

12     I'm telling you this is with relation to the date in this specific case.

13     The first entry says that the commission worked well in view of the

14     circumstances.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- you started very promising by saying, "It was

16     attached."  Attached to what?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the Defence case of

18     Radovan Karadzic.  It was attached to what I said -- because Redzic, Izet

19     had only one objection and that is that the date was wrong.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I'll stop you here for a moment.  Did you provide the Defence

22     team of Radovan Karadzic a number of documents that you said is attached

23     to this statement?

24        A.   About hundred or so.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you recall -- and I'll rephrase my question.

Page 27185

 1     Have you ever in some other case - and I'm -- mean specifically, for

 2     example, in the Karadzic case or Mladic case - did you mark this document

 3     as appendix number 16?  If you can remember.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, it's clear that the original states

 5     "12."

 6             Now why bother this witness with what are -- obviously are

 7     translation or transcription issues.  You started with that.  Please put

 8     your question again.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a reason --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're not supposed to interrupt.

11             Could you please rephrase your question.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.

13     Hopefully I provided answers to the questions that are crucial with

14     regard to the source of this text.

15        Q.   Let me ask you at the end only this:  Can you tell us,

16     Mr. Savkic, when did you write this?  At what time?  Was it before, or

17     after, or during your testimony in the Karadzic case?

18        A.   Much, much before the testimony.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And I'll finish with this question.  It relates to

20     the Prosecutor questions concerning information about the events in the

21     village of Zaklopaca.

22             Apart from the information that you received from the person

23     whose name you have given us, was there any other information that you

24     had concerning the events in Zaklopaca of that day?

25        A.   I have read statements of some Muslims given to this Court, as

Page 27186

 1     well as in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Lukavac, and I don't know whoever they

 2     gave it to, so I had this opportunity and -- to review what the Muslims

 3     wrote.

 4             Now, what Bozidar Trisic told me surprised me because I could

 5     never assume that they held joint village guards, Muslims and Serbs, how

 6     they regulated the passage of Muslims and Serbs, and so on and so forth.

 7     And on that particular day, he said that they were having a feast, the

 8     Serbs and Muslims together finally, when gun-fire was opened, both at

 9     Muslim and Serb houses.  It is contrary to some other testimonies heard

10     here that Zaklopaca was purely Muslim.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Savkic.  The Defence has no further questions for

12     you, and thank you for finding strength to come to The Hague.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?  If not, this

16     then concludes your evidence, Mr. Savkic in this case.  I'd like to thank

17     you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the

18     questions, questions put to you by the party, questions put to you by the

19     Defence, and I wish you a safe return home again.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, there's one outstanding issue about the

24     document marked for identification.

25             MR. TRALDI:  We maintain our objections, Mr. President.

Page 27187

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Based exactly on what?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  The witness's lack of knowledge as to the original

 3     condition of the document when it was discovered, his lack of memory as

 4     to who provided him initially with a copy of the document, and the very

 5     limited probative value of the document under those circumstances.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a completely opposite

 8     position.  I believe that witness has clearly explained how he had

 9     obtained information regarding the source and the origin of this

10     document, and I believe that this document is relevant in the context of

11     this witness's statement.

12             And as for the question of assessing the probative value, will be

13     something to be decided by the Chamber.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, it should be relevant for the case as

15     well.  The Chamber will -- any need to further respond, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  I don't, I'm afraid, have the transcript references

17     for the points that I understand to be in dispute at my fingertips.  I'm

18     happy to provide them at the end of today if Mr. Stojanovic wants to

19     respond to them tomorrow.  But he seemed to disagree as to lack of

20     knowledge on certain points.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will defer its decision on admission and

22     gives the parties an opportunity to make further oral submissions - brief

23     oral submissions - not later than by tomorrow.

24             If we don't hear from the parties, the Chamber will decide on the

25     basis of the submissions made until now.

Page 27188

 1             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are.  We are call Mr. Pljevaljcic, Trivko.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  And if I may ask the usher, before he leaves, to

 5     distribute on his way, statement summaries.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that we get the witness in and

 7     Mr. Usher then will distribute the documents.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             MR. LUKIC:  And, you know, Your Honours, I apologise if I'm

10     interrupting you, but before the witness is with us, I would like to make

11     the application for extension of time for direct examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My answer is the same as it was before.  We do

13     not, at this very moment, oppose.  At the same time, Mr. Lukic, it

14     apparently becomes more or less a routine to ask for more time, and if we

15     then look at how much time, for example, for the last witness was taken

16     by the Defence, partly due to a totally chaotic preparation, and not

17     focussing on what really matters, then --

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it may be clear to you that the Chamber will not

20     routinely follow you in your -- in your requests.  92 ter is there to

21     learn the evidence primarily from the statement, and this is just a

22     warning that we'll not continue this way.

23             Mr. Pljevaljcic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that

24     you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  My I

25     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

Page 27189

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  TRIVKO PLJEVALJCIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic.  Please be seated.

 6             You'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find Mr. Lukic to

 7     your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Will you please state your full name for the record but slowly.

13        A.   My name is Trivko Pljevaljcic.

14        Q.   Since the usher is not here, I will give you your statement later

15     on.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court 1D1671.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, you can see both in the screen

18     in front of you and in hard copy a document.  I'd like to ask you if you

19     have given a statement to the Defence team of General Mladic.

20        A.   Yes, I can see it.  I have given a statement, and this is my

21     signature.

22        Q.   Very well.  You have already anticipated my next question

23     regarding the signature, so let's go now to the last page.

24             Do you see the signature on this page?  And do you recognise it?

25        A.   This is my signature too.

Page 27190

 1        Q.   According to what was recorded in the statement, was all this

 2     accurate and truthful?

 3        A.   It is all accurate and truthful, and I stand by it.

 4        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

 5     essentially provide the same answers?

 6        A.   I would provide answers in the same manner.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  After this, I would like to have this witness's

 8     statement, 1D1671, to -- entered into evidence.

 9             MR. JEREMY:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, no objections.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1671 receives number D706,

12     Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D706 is admitted.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will read statement

15     summary of this witness.  It's a very short one, and I would have some

16     questions for the witness, with your leave, and I promise that they will

17     be focussed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, as you suggest.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             Mr. Pljevaljcic was born in Foca on 6th of August, 1955.  Prior

21     to conflict, witness was working in Foca, in Focatrans company.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, where does that appear in the statement

23     that he was working as a -- in Focatrans company?  And I think did you

24     say as a lawyer or ...

25             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, no.  It was wrongly put in that -- our

Page 27191

 1     motion, 65 ter motion.  Not a lawyer.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I was a bit confused by him being a lawyer or

 3     "lawver" as the 65 ter summary says.  But then where do we -- do we have

 4     Focatrans.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Obviously it's not in his statement.  I can see that

 6     now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if I can identify that within ten

 8     seconds, why you being responsible for the drafting of both the summary

 9     and for the statement couldn't do it.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

12             During the conflict, witness was in the 3rd Company of the

13     5th Battalion covering area from Foca to Crvena Ravan.  As of 1995,

14     witness was working in KP Dom Foca.

15             This witness will explain strike in Focatrans company, and that

16     this event was one of decisive events that caused the demarcation between

17     Serbs and Muslims and creation of ethnic division in Foca.  Special

18     police units were engaged from Sarajevo regarding strike in Focatrans

19     company.

20             Witness will explain that first barricades in Foca and organised

21     military activity was on the part of the Muslims.  Those were located in

22     the vicinity of Aladza mosque as well as in Dobro Polje.

23             Serbs armed themselves from storages from Territorial Defence

24     but, first, clashes were provoked by Muslim side.  Witness will explain

25     attacks on villages surrounding Foca.

Page 27192

 1             According to witness, civilians were leaving Foca due to clashes

 2     which occurred in April 1992.

 3             According to witness, Aladza mosque was used for military

 4     purposes by Muslim forces at the beginning of conflict.  Serb by the name

 5     of Trifkovic was killed from fire opened from Aladza mosque.

 6             And that was the short summary.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, where do we find the strike and the

 8     importance of the strike in the development of the events?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I was mostly reading from our summary that was filed.

10     I only corrected lawyer but obviously we had several versions of the

11     statement, and ... as you can see, this statement was signed only on the

12     10th of July, 2014.  So there are some --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should make a new summary after it was

14     signed.  And if I understand you well, you had more than three months for

15     doing that.  It doesn't make sense to present to the public what the

16     evidence is, if it's not the evidence.

17             Okay.  We'll just ignore your summary at the time being and the

18     public is hereby informed that it does not accurately reflect what was in

19     the statement, although some parts certainly are.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             I have questions for this witness, with your leave.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please be more accurate in that.  We're

24     closely following your examination-in-chief also in view of the fact that

25     you asked for more time.

Page 27193

 1             MR. LUKIC:  This first question would ask for an explanation from

 2     the witness so this first one would -- the first answer might take

 3     longer.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, what do you know about the

 5     organising and registration of ethnic political parties in

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   In the 1990s ethnic parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina started

 8     being registered.  Obviously the registration of ethnic-based parties

 9     was - how shall I put it? - failing to yield any good to any people.

10     There was darkness descending.  People felt some kind of a harsh tones,

11     especially at the party rallies.  The Serbs sent a petition to the

12     constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina demanding that the

13     registration of ethnic-based parties be banned.  However, the

14     constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina rejected that motion, and

15     since the Muslims registered their Party of Democratic Action and the

16     Croats registered HDZ after a couple of months, the Serbs were compelled

17     to register the Serbian Democratic Party.

18             Concerning the Party of Democratic Action in Foca who held its

19     first rally attended between 100.000 and 200.000 people.  I even think

20     there were 20 or 30.000 people from Sandzak very harsh tones were heard,

21     addressed particularly to the Serb.  The flags of the Muslims and Croats

22     were tied together which was yet another indication that they would act

23     in concert, that they had common goals.  So very harsh statements were

24     made at this rally.  They even publicly stated that Foca belongs to the

25     Muslims, that it had to be transformed, that it must establish links with

Page 27194

 1     Sandzak and further on with Kosovo and then Turkey, and eventually

 2     Islamic countries.  Serbs held their own rally later that same year,

 3     sometime in Autumn.  In my view this meeting was a dignified one.  Even

 4     some Muslims were invited to attend.  So that is how these first

 5     frictions started in Foca in the 1990s.

 6             As for Focatrans, it happened even a bit earlier than that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We'll end on that note.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock.  It's time to take a

11     break.

12             Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'll briefly comment on your first

15     question.

16             First question is not in any way related to the statement of the

17     witness.  That's one.

18             Second, the question was overly broad.

19             Three, nothing tells me that this witness is specifically

20     qualified to deal with such a question.

21             Fourth, the witness, in answering the question, mixed up events

22     and personal opinion.  The events he describes not giving the factual

23     basis on which he was able to testify about these events.

24             If you continue like this, the extra time you asked for will not

25     be granted.

Page 27195

 1             We take a break, and resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just want to inform

 9     Your Honours that I cut down my questions short since I couldn't find

10     them the base in this short statement.  So I probably will not need any

11     additional time.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We've used 13 minutes up till this moment.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, thank you.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, I'm going ask you something now

15     about the Muslim who is stayed on in Foca in relation to paragraph 14 of

16     your statement.

17             Did the Muslims assemble in certain places in Foca?

18        A.   Since Foca, in terms of its territory, was the second largest

19     municipality in the former Yugoslavia, second only to Niksic.

20     Surrounding villages, some of them are even 20 or 30 kilometres away from

21     Foca, were predominantly Muslim and then when the conflict broke out

22     these Muslims somehow had to well, since their command and Crisis Staff

23     together with a large number of Muslims had left Foca, these civilians

24     had to be taken care of somehow.  There were a few collection centres for

25     the Muslims.  Some were put up, men usually, at the KP Dom, others were

Page 27196

 1     in Partizan, some were in Codor Mahala and there were these smaller

 2     collection centres.  Some people stayed on in villages, however, it was

 3     very hard to provide security for those civilians.  The reason was as

 4     follows:  Since the war was already well under way, the Serb combatants

 5     who had fallen victim, then their families, their relatives, well,

 6     probably maybe there was some revenge as well, so the Crisis Staff

 7     somehow had to take care of this civilian population, the Muslim

 8     population.

 9             There were guards at all of these places, so these guards were

10     there.  There was this incident in Codor Mahala where one volunteer from

11     Serbia, I think he was from up there, I think that the Serb guards killed

12     him.  He tried to enter that house by force, the house where the

13     civilians were staying but he was killed.  So the Serb population had a

14     lot of problems after that in Foca --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I stop you there.

16             Mr. Lukic, I'm interrupting because I try to assist you.  You let

17     the witness now, for two and a half minute, answer not your question but

18     whatever he says, it's not focussed on your question.  So, therefore,

19     we'll -- if you want to stay within your 30 minutes, rather, keep control

20     over the testimony of the witness.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to you how you wish to proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   So you anticipated a few of my questions that were about to come

25     up.  This is what I'd like to ask you:  The civilians who were guarded,

Page 27197

 1     were they allowed to leave the places where they were?  Let's forget

 2     about the KP Dom.

 3        A.   Muslim civilians?

 4        Q.   Muslim civilians.

 5        A.   Yes, I understand.  Well, absolutely.  They could leave.

 6     However, quite a few of them didn't want to then because they didn't know

 7     where to go.  Maybe their families were in different places.  But, at any

 8     rate, they wanted to -- I mean, they didn't want to at first.  Until they

 9     would find out where their own people were.  That was the first ten days

10     or so and most of them left afterwards.

11        Q.   Could they go tout a shop and buy whatever they needed; do you

12     know that?

13        A.   Well, yes they could go out to a store although, well, stores.

14     It was already war time by then, and these dogs of war, as they call

15     them, had already looted these shops.  But, anyway, the Red Cross was

16     giving some food.

17             There was some food but there wasn't as much food as there is

18     now.  There was as much food for them as there was for the Serbs.

19        Q.   Did your family take someone in?  Someone from the ranks of the

20     Muslim population?

21        A.   Well, yes.  My cousin up there in my village who lives right next

22     door, he took in a lady with her two young children.  She used to work at

23     the court-house in Foca.  Kuloglija.  Kuloglija was her last name.  She

24     was there for a few days and I returned to her to my other relative in

25     town and then after that she left and the woman is alive and well to this

Page 27198

 1     day and the children have grown up.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pljevalcic.  In view of the brief statement, these

 3     are the all the questions that I have for you at this point in time.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have one follow-up question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You said, Mr. Witness, asked about the

 9     possibility to leave these accommodations.  And you said:  Well, they

10     could go out to a store.  My question is:  Did they go out?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't providing security

12     there, but I know that the town was free, that it had been cleansed of

13     armed Muslim formations.  I know --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not my question.  Did they go out.  If

15     you don't know, please tell me that you don't know.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what?  I -- I don't

17     know who was detained there or who was taken care of there.  I don't

18     know.  I encountered Muslim men and women in town and --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not my question.  You said:  They could

20     go out.  My only question is:  Did they go out?  If you don't know,

21     please tell me.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they did go out, and I would

23     see them in town.  And later on, these same people left the town with

24     permits.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you see them leaving these accommodation

Page 27199

 1     centres?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I mean, I'm saying I don't know

 3     who it was that was in these centres, so that I could say well, that

 4     person was in that centre and then I would encounter that person in town.

 5     I saw quite a few Muslims in town and --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not talking about Muslims in general.  I'm

 7     talking about those who were accommodated at these places that you

 8     described.  You don't know if they really left for going out to the town.

 9             Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I've also just one very short follow-up question.

11             Part of your answer was you said -- and I'm just verifying

12     whether these are the words you used.  You said:  I don't know who was

13     detained there or who was taken care of there.  Were those the words you

14     used?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, are you ready to cross-examine the

17     witness.

18             MR. JEREMY:  I am, Your Honours.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Pljevaljcic, you'll now be cross-examined by

20     Mr. Jeremy.  You'll find him to your right.  Mr. Jeremy is counsel for

21     the Prosecution.

22             You may proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

23             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:

25        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

Page 27200

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Now, you say in paragraph 4 of your statement that you were in

 3     the 3rd Company of the 5th Battalion.  How many men were in this company?

 4        A.   There were about 70, between 70 and 80.  The situation varied.

 5        Q.   Now, I couldn't see it mentioned in your statement, but you were

 6     the commander of this 3rd Company; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Fighting in Foca town started on the 8th of April, 1992; is that

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And at this time you were guarding your village Orahovo.  Yes?

12        A.   In front.  Between Foca and --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the other

14     part of the sentence.

15             MR. JEREMY:

16        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, could you repeat your answer.  The interpreters

17     didn't catch it.

18        A.   In my village that's on the outskirts, my village is not too far

19     away, but it's a biggish village.  So it starts from the outskirts of

20     Foca and then it spreads over 5 to 6 kilometres.

21        Q.   But it's correct that while you were guarding your village,

22     Orahovo, you were not in Foca town; is that correct?

23        A.   Well, you know what?  A town is never defended in that town or a

24     village in that village.  We placed guards on the outskirts of Foca.

25     That is a neighbourhood called Aladza, and already from Aladza onwards,

Page 27201

 1     there is a rural settlement, so these are the outskirts of Foca.

 2        Q.   I'll ask this in a different way.

 3             During the first four or five days of the conflict, were you

 4     either in Foca town or were you guarding your village on the outskirts of

 5     your village in Orahovo?

 6        A.   Well, you know what?  My unit was on the outskirts there as you

 7     exit Foca.  That's where the line was and they were guarding the village.

 8     When the fighting started, it started with the Muslim artillery firing,

 9     but the infantry started fighting from Donje Polje and that was towards

10     Aladza.  So part of the combatants did take part in this infantry

11     fighting.

12        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, the conflict started on the 8th of April, 1992.

13     You've just told us that.  During the first four or five days of the

14     conflict, were you in Foca town, yes or no?

15        A.   The first day of the infantry fighting, I did enter Foca.  I

16     entered Aladza that was on the outskirts that was 300 metres away from

17     the lines.  That's where the fighting took place.  That's where the first

18     Serb combatant lost his life.  I and a few of my soldiers did take part

19     in the infantry fighting.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, this will be an endless story about what

21     is Foca town.

22             You were closest to the centre of Foca town in what distance

23     during those first days?  Were you any closer to 300 metre, 500 metre,

24     800 metres, 1 and a half kilometre?

25             What was your position closest to the centre of town?

Page 27202

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the centre of Foca.  Well,

 2     let say 1 kilometre.  Because Foca is not a big town.  If you look at it

 3     as a town.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  1 kilometre is 1 kilometre whether it is from the

 5     centre from a big or a small town.

 6             Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.

 7             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8        Q.   Let's move on.  Mr. Witness, in your statement, you that you were

 9     wounded on the 14th of July, 1992; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   En you were wounded at Cerova Ravan; is that correct?

12        A.   Cerova Ravan is down there towards Gorazde, about 20 kilometres

13     away; on the administrative line between Foca and Gorazde.

14        Q.   What I want to know is, is that the location where you were

15     wounded in your -- and I'll tell you why I ask the question, in your

16     statement I read that you were wounded at Cerva Ravna,

17     C-e-r-v-a R-a-v-n-a, and I'd like to know if that ask the same location

18     as Cerova Ravan.

19        A.   Yes.  Cerova Ravan.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That's on the border between Foca and Gorazde; yes?

21        A.   Yes, on the right bank of the Drina.

22        Q.   Now you were wounded during a military operation in that area; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   Yes, I was wounded when the Muslim forces attacked our positions.

25        Q.   So I'll take your answer as yes.

Page 27203

 1             Now, you were no longer in active service in the military from

 2     this point onwards; correct?

 3        A.   I was not.

 4        Q.   After your wounding, you went to Belgrade to recover from your

 5     injuries; correct?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And your injuries were serious; yes?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   Now, you returned back to Foca from Belgrade in 1993; yes?

10        A.   That's right.

11        Q.   When was that exactly?

12        A.   You know what?  Towards the end of 1992, I returned, a bit, and

13     then I was there, say, for ten or 15 days and yet again I went to

14     Belgrade.  I was up there in Belgrade, recovering, and then I returned

15     for another day or two, and then I went to Igalo, to the medical spa down

16     there for medical treatment, and then I was recovering for about two

17     years.

18        Q.   All right.  So after your injury in mid-July 1992, you went to

19     Belgrade and I understand that you, during this period, you returned to

20     Foca for ten or 15, 16 days; is that correct?

21        A.   That's right.  I returned only once that year, just before the

22     winter.  I returned for a -- ten days or so and then I went back yet

23     again.

24        Q.   And do you recall the month in 1993 that you returned to Foca?

25        A.   I cannot recall the month.

Page 27204

 1        Q.   Are you able to recall whether it was in the first half of the

 2     year or in the second half of the year?  Was it still winter?  Spring?

 3        A.   I think it was the first half, but please don't take my word for

 4     it.  Because then I went down there to the medical spa in Igalo by the

 5     sea.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, in 1993, you became president of the War Invalids'

 7     Association in Foca; correct?  I see you're nodding but we'll need you to

 8     articulate the answer for the record.

 9        A.   That's right, yes.

10        Q.   Do you recall when this appointment took place?  What date?

11        A.   Well, it can be checked exactly, but I think it was just before

12     the Autumn.  But that can be checked, the date.  It's in the archives.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And while you were president of the War Invalids'

14     Association in Foca, where were you based?

15        A.   We were based in the building of the Municipal Assembly of Foca.

16        Q.   So that was in Foca town; correct?

17        A.   The centre, the municipal assembly.  The municipality gave us

18     these offices.

19        Q.   Now, later, you became the vice-president of the veterans'

20     organisation; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And during this period, were you based in the same location

23     during the time that you were vice-president of the veterans'

24     organisation?

25        A.   Yes.  All the time.  It's just the office that was changed.  It

Page 27205

 1     wasn't the very same office.  It was the one next door.  But it was in

 2     the same building and to this day, it is at the same location.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in 1995, you went to work at KP Dom in Foca; is

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move to paragraph 6 of your statement

 7     where you discuss Josanica.  And in that paragraph, you refer to an

 8     attack by Muslim forces on the village of Josanica in December 1992.

 9     During these events, were you still recovering in Belgrade?

10        A.   Josanica happened on the 19th of December, 1992.  Well, it's

11     possible.  I mean, I'm telling, before the Autumn -- or, actually, before

12     the winter, I came for ten or 15 days; came to Foca.

13        Q.   Were you an eye-witness to these events in Josanica, the events

14     you describe in paragraph 6 of your statement?

15        A.   Yes.  When that happened, and I think that that was a horrible

16     thing that happened in Foca.  This is a great crime committed against the

17     Serb people, and no one has been prosecuted for that to this day.

18        Q.   Witness, during this period, you were recovering from your

19     serious injuries; correct?

20        A.   Well, I'm telling you, perhaps I was in Foca for the moment

21     during that period.  But after my wounding, I was no longer capable of

22     doing military service, so it was the Military Medical Commission that

23     declared me unfit.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You've told us that you were wounded in

25     mid-July 1992.  You told us it was a serious injury and your recovery

Page 27206

 1     took --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Jeremy, before you move on, I would like to seek

 3     clarification of one of the answers.

 4             You were asked about Josanica and the events there.  You said you

 5     eye-witnessed that event.  Where exactly where you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously it wasn't translated

 7     properly.  I never said that.  I was no eye-witness.  I was in Foca.  I

 8     was in Foca on that day when that happened.  That's what I've been

 9     saying.  I said that I saw the horror of the people who managed to get

10     out.  That's what I've been saying.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The question that was asked was:  Were you an

12     eye-witness to the events in Josanica, the events that you describe in

13     paragraph 6 of your statement.  Your answer started by:  Yes.  And then

14     you continued to describe how horrible these events would have been.

15             Could you carefully listen to the question, because the yes

16     suggests that, in view of the question put to you, that you were an

17     eye-witness, but it has now been clarified.  Carefully listen to the

18     questions.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.

20             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.  Just a moment please if

22     possible, Josanica is 15 or 20 kilometres way from Foca.  I mean, I could

23     not have been an eye-witness there.  Maybe we did not understand each

24     other properly.  Maybe this was misinterpreted.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if there's serious reason to believe that we

Page 27207

 1     can verify that.  At least it has been clarified now.  I just ask you to

 2     carefully listen to the question.

 3             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Witness, in paragraph 15 of your statement, you refer to Jabuka,

 5     and you say that this was it's first religious facility to be destroyed

 6     in Foca.  Now, here you're referring to the church in Jabuka; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.  The Serb Orthodox church burned down as the Serb civilians

 8     fell victim.

 9        Q.   Witness, you were not an eye-witness to the burning of this

10     church; correct?

11        A.   I was not an eye-witness, but the images of the site where it was

12     burned down and then this old woman who was collecting corpses, these

13     images travelled all over the world, and the tombstones prove that that

14     happened, both for Josanica and Jabuka and Miljevina and all those other

15     places around Foca.

16        Q.   Witness, in paragraph 6 of your statement, in the second

17     sentence, we read as follows:  "Throughout the conflict, which is to say

18     for almost four years, I stayed in the same spot."

19             Now, given what you've just told us about your different

20     whereabouts during the period of the conflict, how should the Chamber

21     understand this part of your statement?

22        A.   It is a fact that I was wounded and there's a document, a

23     military document, on the 14th of July at this place called Sip in the

24     area of Cerova Ravan.  There is another fact, namely, that my company was

25     in the very same spot when Dayton happened.  These are facts that cannot

Page 27208

 1     be refuted.

 2             The Muslims carried out forceful operations on several occasions

 3     and we responded even more forcefully and then sometimes they even went

 4     further in depth, but then we returned to our old locations, and that

 5     happened later on as well.

 6             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Unless you've got any

 7     further questions on this topic, I can conclude here and I note the

 8     time --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One question.  Saint Nicholas Feast is that -- in

10     the Orthodox calendar is when exactly?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 19th of December.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No further questions.

13             I'm also looking at the clock, Mr. Jeremy.  Perhaps it's time to

14     adjourn for the day.

15             MR. JEREMY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I continue to have questions in

16     cross-examination but I'm just concluding for the day.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that --

18             MR. JEREMY:  Thank you.

19             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

20     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  Meanwhile, I instruct

21     you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your

22     testimony whether, that is testimony you have given today or whether that

23     is testimony we will still receive from you tomorrow.  So no

24     conversations, no communication.

25             You may follow the usher and we'll see you back tomorrow.

Page 27209

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow,

 4     Thursday, the 23rd of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 5     courtroom, I.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

 8                           October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.