1 Wednesday, 22 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, The Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
11 Meanwhile, one preliminary matter resulting from yesterday, and
12 if the Prosecution doesn't mind, I'll take the lead. The Chamber was
13 informed that the Prosecution has uploaded under number 65 ter 02370A the
14 excerpts from the transcript of the 26th Republika Srpska Assembly
15 Session, which was tendered with Witness Radojica Mladjenovic. I refer
16 to the transcript page 27105, on the 21st of October. Already
17 provisionally number P06838 was assigned, and the Chamber now understands
18 that where it was announced that page 124 and 25 would be tendered, that
19 it is page 1, page 24 and page 25.
20 [The witness takes the stand].
21 JUDGE ORIE: P6838 is admitted into evidence and if there's any
22 problem with the excerpts, the Defence has an opportunity to raise it
23 within the next 48 hours.
24 Good morning, Mr. Savkic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I do understand that you have received
2 again the documents you've given yesterday to the Tribunal.
3 Now, if you want to consult any of these documents, and there
4 were six, then you should first ask for permission and tell us which
5 document you would like to consult.
6 Is that clear?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I also would like to remind you that you're
9 still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning
10 of your testimony.
11 And Mr. Stojanovic will now put his last two questions in
13 WITNESS: TOMISLAV SAVKIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
16 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.
18 A. Good morning.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have 699
20 in e-court, please. D699. And could we focus on paragraph 32 of the
21 witness's statement.
22 Q. Mr. Witness, in paragraph 32, you speak about information that
23 you received, that the Muslims were preparing an all-out attack on
24 Vlasenica in order to take control of it and establish their own
1 Could you please tell the Court how it was that you received this
3 A. It was quite by accident, if I can put it that way. The cleaning
4 lady at the municipal assembly, the lady who was cleaning the office of
5 the president of the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica, a diary was found,
6 and as far as I can remember, the date was the 13th of April, and his
7 notes were found under that date, and it was quite clear from that what
8 it was that was being prepared by the SDA. That is one thing.
9 Another thing: People who were as worried as we were provided
10 information to us. That's the second reason, actually. On the 20th of
11 April in Cerska, a unit was lined up, and its commander and command were
12 proclaimed, and the leader was --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the name.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However the previous document was
15 more important, the one that I told you about. And it was clear on that
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I seek clarification, Mr. Stojanovic, if you don't
19 Sir, you are quoted here as saying the cleaning lady and then you
20 say a diary was found and his notes. Whose notes are these? Whose diary
21 was this? It's obviously not the lady's because now it's a male who owns
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The diary was of the president of
24 the Executive Council of the municipality of Vlasenica, Izet Redzic.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: The information doesn't come from the lady. The
1 president of the assembly already had the information.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The president of the Executive
3 Council, in his diary, under the date that I mentioned, he kept notes,
4 and everything was clear, on the basis of those notes, what was being
5 prepared. If you put that up on the screen, I can provide further
7 JUDGE MOLOTO: It's not necessary. Thank you so much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just -- did you see that diary, or did the
9 cleaning lady just relay that information to you?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to me. She relayed it to
11 people who lived up there in Vlasenica in that period. And who worked
12 with us, who were in this council for interethnic co-operation or,
13 rather, the people who were working on that agreement that we spoke about
14 yesterday. And, of course, all of this took its own line afterwards
15 towards the MUP and the Territorial Defence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But my question mainly focuses on did she take those
17 notes and show them to those persons, or did she look at it and then told
18 these others what the content was.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She showed it to them and she gave
20 them the diary. And not only the diary but also a page on which it was
21 written further up "the herd to be killed," and then a list of the best
22 known Serbs from the entire municipality of Vlasenica.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Do you happen to have a copy of that page, or do you
24 know where a copy can be found?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I brought that copy to my lawyer,
1 and I brought it to the trial of Mr. Radovan Karadzic. It was admitted
2 into evidence in the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and so on and so forth.
3 It's been used for a long time now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I see Mr. Stojanovic is nodding yes. Does
5 that mean that you want to tender that Mr. Stojanovic or ...
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Honour. That is
7 my next step.
8 Q. But for the transcript, could the witness be clear on the
9 position that Izet Redzic held at that point in time. You say that these
10 are his notes.
11 A. Izet Redzic was the president of the Executive Board of the
12 Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica; there's no denying that. That is to
13 say, that he exercised power together with his co-workers.
14 Q. Line 2, on page 3, I think there's a bit of a difference. I
15 think there's a bit of a difference in the answers in the transcript so
16 that's why I asked this now.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have another
18 document, 65 ter 1D03503.
19 Q. Mr. Witness -- actually, have you ever had an opportunity before
20 of seeing the handwriting of the then-president of the Executive Board of
21 the Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica?
22 A. Yes. He worked in the same company where I worked. That is to
23 say, the bauxite mines, Milici. He was an engineer, a mechanical
24 engineer, that is to say, he worked in a different department because I
25 worked on an electrical maintenance. After all, we went to high school
1 together as well. The first grade of high school. This is his
2 handwriting, absolutely. However, as far as I know, he never denied it
4 Q. With your leave, in view of what this document looks like, I'd
5 like to ask you something. The upper part is typewritten --
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. What's this about?
8 A. This is a copy of that page from the diary that was published in
9 the gazette or, rather, a gazette that was being published then. I think
10 it was called Glas Birca. So on page 2, you can see a photocopy of this
11 diary page.
12 Q. Thank you. And in this part of the text on the right-hand side
13 underneath the date, the 13th of April, 1992, this is what is written:
14 "The commission worked well, given the conditions?"
15 And then the next line: "Herd for slaughtering."
16 Now this line, is that what you were telling us about a moment
18 A. Yes, yes, that's one of the things that was there. It said "herd
19 for slaughtering" and then there was this list. I mean, the most
20 prominent Serbs. Or, how do I put this? Well, I'm not saying the
21 intelligentsia, but the most prominent Serbs in the entire municipality
22 of Vlasenica. Milici was included as well. For example, I think I was
23 the third person on this list. That's what they told me. I haven't seen
24 this list though. Because it is well known where it ended up.
25 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, to the best of your
1 recollection, where did this list end up?
2 A. The original of this page was taken by then-Colonel or
3 Lieutenant-Colonel, Radovan Tacic. He was from the armoured unit.
4 Actually he said that he would take this institute, and so on and so
5 forth, somewhere in Belgrade or Uzice. When 40 tanks were being
6 withdrawn, he was a commander there. He took that to Serbia and this
7 court and the other courts and prosecutor's offices of Bosnia and Serbia
8 should find Mr. Radovan Tacic. He's still alive and he would have to
9 know where this is. However many people had seen this. One of the
10 people who had seen this was a witness who testified here in the case of
11 Radovan Karadzic, Zoran Zivanovic was his name; unfortunately, he is
12 deceased. His brother was the seventh person on that list. A young man,
13 a high school student who lived a modest life. To this day, he did not
14 understand why he was on that list, and he did see that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, now could you tell us, you said that it
16 clearly appears that a number of Serbs would be killed after a take-over,
17 a massive attack on Vlasenica.
18 Could you tell us exactly where you find the attack and where you
19 find the clear indication that Serbs would be killed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are two points, and I will --
21 actually, there are three points, and I will tell you.
22 If you move onto the next one:
23 "Call the president of the Municipal Assembly of Tuzla, Beslagic,
24 to address our refugees."
25 And then the next one is:
1 "The General Staff is directing the entire operations."
2 And then most importantly, focus on the left-hand side underneath
3 these names. This is what is written --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... go to the
5 next page in English.
6 Please continue.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Isko, to let out the children from
8 the secondary school for Friday and Monday. Secure a motive and inductor
9 from Finale." The Friday was supposed to be the 24th. That's easy.
10 Well, inductor from Finale and then get the children out of the secondary
11 school there can only be two motives. One is --
12 JUDGE ORIE: What does it say at all, I mean, apart from motives.
13 He see that Isko is to let out the children from secondary school on
14 Friday and Monday. Which suggests that they go there on Friday and they
15 go there on Monday.
16 What is so clearly indicated here that ...?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, sir, it's quite clear.
18 Inductor from Finale. Inductor. That's equipment that any army in the
19 world would have. That is for dealing with explosives. One is to take
20 the Muslim children out because he is referring to them and then the
21 remaining Serb children should be kept there and blackmailed, or blown up
22 using this inductor. Isko is Isko Jasarevic. He is an officer. Later
23 on, he was appointed assistant commander for morale at the Cerski
24 detachment. In the chronicles of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you can
25 find his CV, and it says that I figured prominently in the training
1 activities of the Patriotic League in March 1992.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to understand what so clearly emerges
3 from this document. That is what I'm focussed on at this moment rather
4 than on background information you may have.
5 Where does it say that this will be an attack on -- on Vlasenica?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said this, what is
7 here, and this is what I'm saying now. I'm going back to -- well,
8 actually we're on the same page. We're on the same page. On the
9 right-hand side. What is written here and it should be translated,
10 "organised for defence" --
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in English could
12 we have the first page of the document again.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So underneath this, above the
15 names, actually, it's stated very clearly: "Organisation for defence".
16 In all of their documents when they speak about attacks against our
17 villages and the like, then --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I have some difficulties in understanding
19 that the words "organising for defence" is a clear indication of
20 attacking Vlasenica. I mean, I may understand that you may have this
21 interpretation. But you said it clearly appears from this document,
22 which, by the way, seems to be a kind of cut-and-paste document anyhow.
23 But I am trying -- you said there are two things are clear. First, an
24 attack on Vlasenica, and, second, a list of Serbs to be killed.
25 Now these two items I'm trying to see where the document --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- unambiguously states that. And you've told us
3 that the attack should be deduced from three persons being charged with
4 organising for defence.
5 Now, the Serbs to be killed, where do we find that in this
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that it is on
8 this list "the herd for slaughtering," and I said where that list is
9 right now. However, I've also stated that, as far as this Isko is
10 concerned and the preparations of this sabotage, it is quite clear
11 anywhere in the world, in any army, what someone does with an inductor.
12 Starting with any soldier, the lowest ranking sergeant, up to a general.
13 Or even a high school student. Everyone know was an inductor is used
15 JUDGE ORIE: What -- let me just see whether I fully understand.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you can explain what you understand to
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all formations of the world, in
19 all armies --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm asking you what you understand to be an
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] An inductor is a device that is
23 used, most often, in engineering, or in construction companies, or
24 companies that are involved in destruction by the use of explosives.
25 Electrical networks are set up with explosives. Then this becomes a very
1 powerful induction generator of electricity. If you've watched American
2 films and other films, then it has this handle up here, and then when the
3 explosive is activated, you either press it or you twist it; it depends
4 on the manufacturer. And in this way, the explosive is activated. As an
5 engineer, I understand that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, apparently this is
7 important part of what you present as evidence. The translation of the
8 document says something quite different. Because it talks about a doctor
9 rather than an inductor and, therefore, I'm a bit confused that you
10 didn't check that part of the -- of the evidence. And the translation.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the next page in English again.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because that's where it appears.
14 It says:
15 "Isko to let out the children from the secondary school for
16 Friday and Monday. Secure" - and then it says something that difficult
17 to - "engine and doctor from," it reads "Isola" but I did understand that
18 you said "Finale". Can you read what kind of a -- what kind of a machine
19 or engine has to be secured? So the words before inductor, what does it
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm asking the witness at this moment.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What does it read? Could you see it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says clearly: And
1 I-n-d-u-k-t-o-r. You can't see the I at the beginning.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about the word before that. So the last
3 word on the fourth line --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Ensure M-o-t" and then the next
5 letter could be O and then R which means motor. Then again, it could be
6 M-o-t, which is quite clear, but the rest is not so clear. If we take
7 this to be motor then it goes very well with the next word, "inductor".
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that a motor inductor? And how do we have
9 to -- how do we have understand a motor inductor to be related to --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the word motor, there is a
11 word "and", "motor and an inductor". A motor and an inductor from
12 Finale. That's the name of the company that is in wood processing and
13 other businesses. There was never a doctor in Finale, and the word
14 inductor is the same as in this sentence. It's Monday and Friday. And
15 you can see that it's identical as that which is before the word
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is an inductor a component which is very
18 broadly and generally used in all kind of technical equipment, I would
19 say electronical equipment or electronic components of equipment?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I am an electrical engineer and
21 it doesn't exist.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You say it doesn't exist. Let me just --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about an inductor. Is an inductor
25 specifically a component of an explosive device or is it a generally used
1 in many, many appliances, a kind of a small part of an electrical circuit
2 which is used in many, many technical or electrical appliances?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it doesn't exist.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you are telling us that -- what doesn't exist?
5 Does an inductor not exist?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, Isko was a philosophy teacher
7 and a reserve military officer. As for philosophy, there is nothing that
8 you will find under the name of inductor. Whereas in the school for
9 reserve officers, an inductor is the device that I described. That is
10 the only thing that you come across if you attend a military school.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I -- I do understand that an inductor is
12 not the main subject in philosophy teaching. But I'm trying to find out
13 how specific the reference to an inductor is for an explosive device. I
14 mean, a motor, which apparently is also mentioned there, I wouldn't
15 immediately think a motor to be necessary or to be specifically to be
16 used for explosive activities.
17 Now, I'm asking myself the same question for an inductor. Is an
18 inductor a electronical or electric device specifically aimed at being
19 used in explosive devices or is it a rather general electrical or
20 electronical component which is used in, well, let's say, in washing
21 machines, in radio equipment, in whatever. I'm trying to understand why
22 I conclude from the mentioning of the word inductor that this is an
23 exercise which is aiming at explosives.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, why were only Muslim children
25 taken out from the secondary school, and on a Friday, at that? Why? He
1 was a reserve captain. Why the Muslim children?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please focus your answer --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the teacher.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please focus on what I asked. And if you
5 are unable to do that, then we leave it for that.
6 Mr. Stojanovic, if you can shed some additional light and also on
7 where the document reads that only Muslim children are to be let out from
8 the school, not only on Friday, apparently, linked to explosions but then
9 on Monday again which then comes a bit as a surprise.
10 If you can shed light on that, together with the witness, you're
11 invited to do that. But, first of all, always check the translation so
12 that we are not thinking in terms of doctors, rather than in terms of
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We will do so, Your Honours.
16 The translation of the document is the one that we had uploaded in the
17 system, and we felt we were obliged to clarify this with the witness, and
18 then we shall try to verify the translation.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, at the time, that is to say, in mid-April 1992, what
20 were relations on the ground like in municipality of Vlasenica? And I'm
21 talking about interethnic relations.
22 A. Look, gentlemen, we were established or, rather, six of us were
23 chosen as the most respectable people. We appreciated one another
24 extremely, and we still have high regard for each other, especially while
25 Dr. Dzana was the president of the SDA, we were able to keep the
1 situation in Vlasenica under control, absolutely. However, the major
2 problems occur in the exercise of power. For example, Izet Redzic was
3 the president of the Executive Committee. There was no Serb who would
4 approach this person in order to solicit any favours for me, and there
5 were many reasons for that. This same person with whom we communicated
6 but not only with him, there was also Sefo Saracevic, who was the
7 secretary of the municipal assembly. There was also Mustafa Imamovic who
8 was the president of the court. He would always feel somehow threatened
9 and unable to exercise his power. At one point, he decided to arm all
10 his associates, that is to say 21 of them and including the president of
11 the municipality, and two porters, all of them had handguns both during
12 working hours and after working hours.
13 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment and let's focus in that
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go back to
16 the first page in English of this document.
17 Q. The man that you just described in terms of his conduct, if this
18 is his handwriting and his words, says: "The General Staff will direct
19 all the operations."
20 I'm asking you: Did you have any specific knowledge about what
21 kind of General Staff he was speaking that time, on the 13th of April,
23 A. Gentleman, it's absolutely clear. At that time there was no
24 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, according to the Yugoslav
25 constitution and the BH constitution --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not what General Staff was not
2 meant. The question was what General Staff is being referred to here.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The General Staff mentioned here
4 was the Main Staff of the Patriotic League, and it's quite clear who
5 members of the Patriotic League were.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And how do you know that that is what is meant here?
7 Is that your interpretation of the document, or do you have any specific
8 reason to believe that that is what General Staff is referring to here?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who among the Muslim
10 people would be directing operations other than the General Staff of the
11 Green Berets, et cetera. That's one thing.
12 Secondly, yes, I did have knowledge. There were millions of
13 facts that could be proved. Many of them were well known back then and
14 today as well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it in the hands of Mr. Stojanovic what
16 to select from the million -- millions of facts, because that might be a
17 bit too much at this moment in the three minutes that were remaining for
18 you, Mr. Stojanovic, approximately 45 minutes ago.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will comply, Your Honours.
20 Can we now look at paragraph 20 of your statement, D699, just
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mladic is supposed not to speak aloud. He knows
23 what the consequences will be.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 20 of your statement where you
1 speak about the forming of paramilitary formations of the
2 Patriotic League and HOS. When you were giving your answers a while ago,
3 I just like to ask you specifically, did you have any concrete knowledge
4 that in April of 1992 units of the Patriotic League and the HOS were
5 already operational in Vlasenica and Birac?
6 A. Yes. Just an example: In September, members of the
7 Patriotic League were publicly lined up in Tuzla. I think it was in
8 November, rather. Then, in Vlasenica, HOS or the Croatian Party of
9 Right, General Pijukovic [phoen], members of HOS were walking around the
10 village in broad daylight completely freely.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
12 tender document 1D03503 into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that the witness be asked to remove his
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- first of all, do you understand
17 the English language?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I remove my earphones.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You should first -- put them on again, please.
20 You should first answer my question, whether you do understand or
21 read the English language.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't give you an answer. I
23 can read a bit. I used to be fluent in English but nowadays -- I
24 wouldn't say that I know the language.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the information you gave us is sufficient to
1 not deal with the matter in the presence of the witness.
2 MR. TRALDI: In that case, Mr. President, it might be most
3 expeditious I will have a few questions about the document and I'd just
4 ask that it be MFI'd and we address it at the completion of his
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed in that way. Madam Registrar, the
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3503 receives number D705,
9 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic. You are aware that you have put
12 a few questions to the witness which - and you have put a document to the
13 witness - which raises so many questions that you would have done better
14 by starting with that issue rather than do it at -- in the last three
15 minutes of your examination-in-chief. But please conclude soon your
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we now have
18 D699 again, paragraph 42.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, just briefly, 42. Here you speak about a sabotage
20 carried out by Muslim paramilitary formations on the 27th of May, 1992,
21 and I'm going to ask you only what is the basis of your information that
22 this event had occurred in the manner explained here.
23 A. I saw all this and experienced all this. This Court saw relevant
24 documents during the trials of both Radovan Karadzic and
25 Momcilo Krajisnik. There are criminal reports. There are perpetrators
1 who committed the crime, and quite importantly, there is a number of
2 Muslims involved there, including Mirsad Sulejmanovic. But I can give
3 you many more names, if you wish.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what is your personal knowledge about the
5 perpetrators? So not what you learned from documents but do you have any
6 personal knowledge about the incident?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in Milici at the time. My
8 company, Boksit was transporting ore from the pit to the foundry in
9 Zvornik. The road ran through Konjevic Polje. It was a convoy made up
10 of 30 vehicles. On the way back --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I fully understand that you learned about the
12 incident. My question was focussed on whether you have any personal
13 knowledge about the perpetrators. Were you there, did you see them, how
14 did you gain any information about who perpetrated this crime, as you
15 told us?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The survivors, the drivers. One of
17 them was a neighbour of mine, Milan Dukic. We drew up together. We were
18 born in the same village of Dubnica. He told me everything. We had been
19 living next to all those people until recently, and you can find his
20 statement about this.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What is in his statement, we'll leave it to
22 the parties to present that statement or not. What did he tell you about
23 the perpetrators? What he saw when it all happened. Did he identify a
24 perpetrator, or did he know the perpetrator? Could you tell us what he
25 told you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told me everything. How they
2 set up an ambush. He was one of the lorry drivers. He mentioned
3 specific people whom he recognised among other -- the man known as Taran.
4 So you can find other names in his statement. I personally cannot
5 remember them at the moment, but if I were to see his statement, it would
6 be helpful.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're not going to give that you statement at
8 this moment.
9 Do I understand that what you have read in his statements is what
10 he had told you. Is that more or less how we have to understand your
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He first related this to me, and
13 then later on, he gave a statement to the public security station in
14 Milici. So he was one of the persons with whom I had this kind of
16 JUDGE ORIE: And the content of the statements, to the extent you
17 are aware of them, are the same as what he told you. Is that ...
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Stojanovic.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Witness, I'll finish with one more question.
24 Did you have an opportunity to attend a funeral of any of the
25 employees from the company where you used to work, who were the victims
1 of these tragic events?
2 A. Well, unfortunately, rarely. In May of 1992, we would have
3 buried someone each and every day. If we started to go day by date, that
4 would be ...
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm not going to insist on this any
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with this, I have
8 concluded my examination-in-chief, and, therefore, I will not tender this
9 document that you pointed out as a witness statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's not tendered then.
11 We've five minutes left. Perhaps -- Mr. Traldi, apparently it
12 was relevant for the admission of the other document. Is there any way
13 that you could start with that and see if we can deal with that before we
14 take a break.
15 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. I'm not sure I will complete
16 that line but I'll make a start.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see where it ends.
18 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
21 MR. TRALDI: Sorry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi. You
23 find him to your right and Mr. Traldi is counsel for the Prosecution.
24 Mr. Traldi.
25 MR. TRALDI:
1 Q. Sir you were asked some questions this morning about a document
2 that you identified as part of Izet Redzic's notebook. When was the
3 first time you saw that document?
4 A. I think that it was sometime between the 16th and 18th of April,
5 or something like that.
6 Q. Do you mean in 1992?
7 A. If that is the document, yes, that's what I mean.
8 Q. Now, beginning on the 14th of April, 1992, you had, in fact, left
9 Vlasenica and gone to Milici; right?
10 A. The 13th of April. The session of the municipal assembly was
11 held on the 13th of April.
12 Q. And, sir, that's not what I asked you. What I asked you was:
13 Beginning on 14th of April, you had left Vlasenica municipality, you had
14 gone to Milici municipality; right?
15 A. I live in this place called Milici.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you went at that point in
17 time from Vlasenica to Milici. Whether you lived there or not is a
18 different matter. Sometimes people are at a place where they do not
20 Did you go at the point in time mentioned by Mr. Traldi from
21 Vlasenica to Milici?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I live there. I spend my
23 nights there.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. So you were no longer in Vlasenica when this document was, as you
1 said, discovered by a cleaning lady; right?
2 A. Well, I was travelling every day as a member of this council.
3 Apparently you haven't read the agreement. I literally travelled from
4 Milici to Vlasenica every day, and then further on to Sarajevo. I cannot
5 account for every day.
6 Q. Well --
7 A. I was there. My wife was there. My mother-in-law was there.
8 Q. Well, sir, I've asked about the 14th because of your own previous
9 testimony in the Krajisnik case.
10 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31466, page 105.
11 Q. I take it you testified truthfully in that case, to the best of
12 your knowledge. That's your evidence today?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, in the middle of this page, the Defence counsel is asking
15 you about Muslims who had left Vlasenica. He says: "What was the effect
16 of the Muslim --
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: What line.
18 MR. TRALDI: Line 14, Your Honour.
19 Q. "What was the effect of the Muslim departures that you have
21 You say: "The departure of Muslims instilled fear into everyone,
22 Serbs and Muslims alike."
23 You speak for a few more lines. And then on line 21, after
24 describing some rumours, part of which was propaganda maybe, you say:
25 "But I cannot tell you more about it because already on the 14th I was in
1 Milici; I was not in Vlasenica."
2 So, in fact, you can't tell us more from your personal knowledge
3 about what was happening between the 14th and the 20th of April in
4 Vlasenica, because you were already in Milici; right?
5 A. Sir, you asked me whether I had any knowledge about what you had
6 asked me about. I could have that knowledge in Milici as well, just like
7 in Vlasenica, and at the mine, and so on and so forth. And --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I stop you there. You're moving subject.
9 Whether you could have known anything being in Milici is a different
10 matter. What Mr. Traldi puts to you is that, today, you tell us that you
11 went up and down from Milici to Vlasenica, whereas, in this other case,
12 you testified that you could not know what happened in Vlasenica because
13 you were in Milici, which clearly suggests that you were not, on a daily
14 basis, in Vlasenica.
15 That contradiction is what Mr. Traldi is asking you about. Do
16 you have an explanation?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't even say that. Rather,
18 this knowledge, I answered that my knowledge about this was up until the
19 18th. I didn't say where. Well, of course, you can ask me but ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is that -- if that's your explanation, then
21 Mr. Traldi will put his next question to you.
22 But only after the break, Mr. Traldi.
23 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break first, and you're invited to
25 follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to come in, I
6 already have two small questions, Mr. Stojanovic, about the document
7 which is MFI'd at this moment.
8 First of all, in the translation, it -- in the top line, it
9 refers to a number, 12, whereas, in the -- in the translation, it's
10 appendix number 16/, a slash I do not find in the original. And, second,
11 an appendix to what is, of course, one of the questions that --
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- may be in need of an answer.
14 We'll continue, Mr. Savkic.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. Sir, continuing with questions about this notebook page.
17 During your testimony in the Krajisnik case, you didn't mention
18 it at all, did you?
19 A. In some other light, yes, yes. I must have. I cannot remember
20 right now. I testified for all of five days. However, in the meantime,
21 I remembered some very important things that you have in this transcript
22 that is very important for the Court as well. More or less, all my
23 knowledge related to Vlasenica, I gained from Radomir Bjelanovic, a
24 personal friend of mine, who was chief of the public security station at
25 the time. That's what I told you, knowledge. Basically from him I heard
1 about the situation in Vlasenica and beyond at any given moment.
2 Q. Was it him who told you about this purported notebook entry?
3 A. Yes, yes. I think now -- well, no, it's not that I think.
4 Perhaps further on in the transcript. In most places, well, certainly --
5 now whether he actually told me about this, probably, because he was
6 there on the spot. And this is exactly what he did in operative terms,
7 and the public security station in Vlasenica. At that time he was chief
8 of the public security station in Vlasenica.
9 Q. I'm going to ask you to focus your answer on the question I ask
11 So I take it that you do not recall now whether it was
12 Mr. Bjelanovic who told you about this notebook entry. Have I correctly
13 understood your answer, yes or no?
14 A. All the information that is important from the public security
15 station of Vlasenica, I had all of that, as I talked to my family friend.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, is it true that you're not certain whether
17 you -- whether Mr. Bjelanovic told you about the notebook entry?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two men, Radomir Bjelanovic and
19 perhaps Zoran Zivanovic, but I think it is Radomir Bjelanovic. I think.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You're not certain. Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, given this time distance
22 whether I'm sure or not sure ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, no one blames you for you. But we'd like
24 to know whether you know or whether you just think or whether you're not
25 certain. That's the issue and you're not blamed in any way for not
1 remembering certain matters.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. Now you heard from one of those two men, you didn't see the
4 original document at the time it was discovered, did you?
5 A. The original ... now was it the original or not? I don't wish to
6 say that. I don't wish to state whether I saw the original or a copy.
7 It is certain that I did see it in that period though.
8 Q. You don't know, then, if anything was added to it after it was
9 discovered, do you?
10 A. What I saw is that, what was on the screen. All of these
11 important things that I talked about, I saw them then. And then I
12 understood it as I said today.
13 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you again to focus on the question.
14 Between the time it was discovered and the time you first saw it,
15 you don't know whether anything was added to the document as it was
16 found; right?
17 A. Could you repeat your question? I don't think that the
18 interpretation is good.
19 Q. You don't know whether anything was added to the document between
20 the time when it was found and the time when you first saw it, do you?
21 A. In that period of a few days, of course, I don't know whether
22 something was added or not. How could I know that?
23 Q. And in April of 1992, the Muslim holiday Bajram fell that month;
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And Muslims slaughter animals for feasts for Bajram; right?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And in terms of organising for defence, in early April 1992 there
4 had been conflict in Bijeljina and Zvornik, hadn't there?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. And doesn't it stand to reason that people in municipalities near
7 there would be concerned about conflicts spilling over into their areas
8 and want to defend themselves?
9 A. All of us were more concerned in that period because of the
10 Croatian army that entered Posavina, and everything that was done to the
11 Serbs by the regular Croat army in the area between Brod, Derventa and
12 Modrica. So it was both Serbs and Muslims. Those would come later.
13 Because this had been going on for already a month and a bit more than
14 that and that situation affected us a lot more, both of us, because we
15 both saw that there is no state, that the state cannot protect us. And
16 that is why we sat down to reach agreement.
17 Now what you are trying to say about Bajram, Kurban Bajram, it
18 was on the 4th of April and on this page, sir, the first item is quite
19 clear. Our work is being assessed and in the first item -- bring it back
20 and you will see. Commission worked well on the basis of the conditions
21 that it worked in. Given the conditions it worked in. And that
22 commission could only have been from the 13th onwards. So you take a
23 look at that.
24 Q. Sir, again, you've confirmed that you don't know what was in the
25 document when it was found and what was added later, do you?
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's what the [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have confirmed that. I've
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. And just to complete my questions in this area, I'd put to you
6 that you were asked in the Krajisnik case why the protocol fell apart.
7 You answered for four pages, so I won't read the entire thing. You
8 mentioned rumours, you mentioned speculation, you mentioned propaganda.
9 You did not mention this notebook entry. So I'd put to you that you, in
10 fact, learned of this notebook entry between your testimony in the
11 Krajisnik case and today, not in April 1992.
12 A. Sir, it is absolutely easy to refute what you're saying. Bring
13 this back to the screen so that Their Honours can take a look at this.
14 And you will see that that part is --
15 Q. Sir, I'm going to --
16 A. From Glas Birca, Glas Birca, that paper from the third of March.
17 So what you're saying just now is and I'll tell you --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm stopping you. What the document says
19 is a matter different from when you learned about it.
20 What Mr. Traldi puts to you is the following, since you did not
21 refer to this document in any way in the Krajisnik case, he infers from
22 that and puts that to you, that you learned about this document only
23 after your testimony. He is not stating that the document did not exist
24 at that time but that you learned about it only after your Krajisnik
25 testimony and gives you an opportunity to respond to that.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The entire population of
2 Vlasenica, Muslims and Serbs, were aware of that document. It was
3 published in the newspaper Glas Birca. I have it in my own documentation
4 and that one page we can see from that. So what you are saying is wrong.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
6 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 19819. I'm turning to a
7 different subject.
8 Q. Now, this is a decision dated the 4th of April, 1992 establishing
9 a Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica. This was signed
10 on your behalf because you were in Tuzla with General Jankovic that day;
12 A. No, no, no. No, not with General Jankovic. It was on the 3rd of
13 April. I was with him on the 3rd of April whereas this list says the 4th
14 of April.
15 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31468 page 28.
16 Q. You've just been shown this same document in your testimony in
17 the Karadzic case.
18 Sorry, I have the page number wrong, I think. Could we try page
19 36, please.
20 So you're being asked in a question that ends at the top of the
21 page about this document. You say in line 4: "Just a moment. On the
22 4th of April, I have it somewhere in one of the paragraphs here. I was
23 in Tuzla then" -- and the attorney questioning you referred you to a
24 paragraph of your statement.
25 But you said: "I'm trying to explain. It says the 4th of April.
1 That's why my signature is not there. As for my paragraphs, there is
2 somewhere where it says ... on the 4th of April, 1992, I was in Tuzla. I
3 went to see General Jankovic. But there's nothing to be disputed. The
4 4th of April. You know that it is basically the beginning of the war."
5 So your testimony in the Karadzic case was that this was signed
6 for you on the 4th of April because you were in Tuzla with
7 General Jankovic. Do you stand by that testimony today?
8 A. Bad translation. Bad translation. I did not say that. But this
9 is what I did say --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, are you challenging what is -- okay.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will be verified on the basis of the audio.
13 If you say that my words were mistranslated into the Karadzic case.
14 We'll get the audio ready, it can be listened to again, and we'll see
15 whether there's any wrong translation. So if that's the issue we'll do
16 that and there's no need to further explain unless ...
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. You added --
19 A. Just a moment.
20 Q. Sorry --
21 A. Look, in the statement in Radovan Karadzic's trial and in my
22 statement here, it is clearly stated that on the 3rd of April, I was in
23 Tuzla with General Savo Jankovic. Take a look at both statements, and
24 that's for sure. However, over here, when I saw this document obviously
25 since I saw it for the first time, I mean, it was very quick, and it was
1 in a hurry so I didn't notice that the month was April. Well, it's
2 possible that I said that I was there then, but when I testified in
3 Radovan Karadzic's case, and also in General Ratko Mladic's case, it is
4 clearly stated that I was then in Tuzla with General Jankovic and this is
5 the period. This is the period. Up there. That false heading of this
6 decision that you, from the Prosecutor's office, tried to sneak in, while
7 we are working on the agreement --
8 JUDGE ORIE: You can tell us about facts. Allegation and
9 accusations can be put forward through Defence counsel. If you have told
10 Mr. Stojanovic about any falsification, you certainly pay attention to
11 it. But you are supposed to tell us about the facts and it may be clear
12 that in your testimony in the Karadzic case and apparently you do not
13 challenge that anymore, you told that the signature on the document was
14 not there before because you were in Tuzla where you went to see
15 General Jankovic. On the 4th of April.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Wrong, wrong --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it is correct that the signature
19 is not mine and over here this was just -- this one moment I mean, made a
20 mistake, the date --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Signature is not mine.
23 JUDGE ORIE: There's no dispute about that, I think. If you make
24 a mistake rather than think about that before you accuse our interpreters
25 of giving wrong interpretations, yes? We'll not accept such behaviour
1 any further.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. You also testified about this document, "Let's be clear, the
6 Crisis Staffs were formed whenever the situation was critical for the
8 The Crisis Staff in Vlasenica was, in fact, formed on the 4th of
9 April, 1992; right?
10 A. No, that's not right. I don't know about that because from the
11 30th of March until the 11th of April, we, this group, was working on the
12 agreement, the one that is attached here, and that was adopted by the
13 assembly. Milenko Stanic and I and others were on this group, and --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether the Crisis Staff was formed on
15 the 4th of April, yes or no?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Was it not formed, or do you not know when it was
18 formed, on that date?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that meeting, even if it had
20 been formed, I wasn't there.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. No one asked you whether you were there or not.
22 You leave it open that it was formed on the 4th of April, if I understand
23 you well?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But you -- but you do not know? Because if you
1 know, tell us what date it was when it was formed.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't even know when it was
3 formed because I wasn't there. If it was formed. If it was formed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness apparently doesn't know when a Crisis
5 Staff was formed, if it was formed at all.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. TRALDI: I tender this document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31468 receives --
10 MR. TRALDI: I apologise.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 19819 receives number P6839,
12 Your Honours.
13 [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
15 Mr. Mladic, one more loud word and you'll be removed from the
16 courtroom. It's now two or three times today that you spoke aloud. You
17 know exactly how to communicate with counsel without raising your voice,
18 without speaking at a volume audible for others.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. Now in Milici municipality, there was a War Presidency in 1992,
22 right, but you did not serve as a member?
23 A. What was that? May or July? May 1992 or July 1995?
24 Q. What I suggested to you was that in 1992, in Milici municipality,
25 there was a War Presidency of which you were not a member; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I think you've anticipated my next question. There was also
3 a War Presidency in Milici municipality beginning in July 1995; right?
4 A. Yes, there was, but, actually, everything functioned as if it did
5 not exist. There was still an assembly and an Executive Board but in
6 accordance with the decision or order of Radovan Karadzic or the
7 National Assembly, yes, it did exist and it was supposed to send reports
8 every month, yes.
9 Q. And then you were the president that time; right?
10 A. President of the assembly. The president of the assembly is, at
11 the same time, the president of the War Presidency.
12 MR. TRALDI: Could we please have 65 ter 04480.
13 Q. Now, this is a report you sent in your capacity as president of
14 the War Presidency on the 18th of August, 1995.
15 MR. TRALDI: And could we have page 2 in the English, please.
16 Q. Directing your attention to point 2, you write: "We trust that
17 you are aware of the security situation in Milici municipality, but just
18 to use an example, the last three times parts of Milici municipality and
19 the surrounding area were combed, 35 Turks ... were killed and three were
21 So my question for you is: Was it common for you to refer to
22 Bosnian Muslims as Turks in your official documents?
23 A. No. Just soldiers.
24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, I tender this document.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 4480 receives number P6840,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Staying with 1995 for a moment, in paragraph 76 of your
6 statement, you describe how the bodies of Muslims who you say were killed
7 in July 1995 crossing the Djugum-Kaldrmica-Konjevic Polje road were
8 collected and buried in several graves along that road. I have a few
9 questions about this aspect of your evidence.
10 First, while you don't use the words Nova Kasaba, what you're
11 describing is the road between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This area is near the border between the Milici, Vlasenica and
14 Bratunac municipalities; right?
15 A. Well, if Milici and Vlasenica is one municipality for you, then
17 Q. In 1995, Milici and Vlasenica were separate municipalities in the
18 RS; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm going to re-ask my question. This is an area near the
21 borders between Milici, Vlasenica, and Bratunac municipalities; correct?
22 A. This is the area between the municipalities of -- this is the
23 area between the municipalities -- this is at war time. So it is between
24 the Muslim municipality and the municipality of Vlasenica.
25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31486.
1 Q. And while it comes up, Nova Kasaba, by establishment, was part of
2 Milici municipality; right?
3 A. In 1992, you saw that agreement, it's clearly stated that
4 Nova Kasaba belongs to the municipality of Muslim Vlasenica.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
6 MR. LUKIC: Now we have partially that cleared. But since my
7 colleague cannot follow English, the answer that starts on 36, page line
8 6, specially line 7 and 8 should be maybe clarified because that was not
9 the answer the witness gave.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps --
11 MR. LUKIC: Yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. LUKIC: It was recorded. So it is between the Muslim
14 municipality and the municipality of Vlasenica.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's what the witness said, yes --
16 MR. LUKIC: No --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is recorded as having said --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, but --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- but you --
20 MR. LUKIC: But now he, in 36, 13 --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
22 MR. LUKIC: -- he explained --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- let me just -- Witness, part of one of your
24 answers was that Nova Kasaba is between the Muslim municipality and the
25 municipality of Vlasenica. That's how it was recorded and interpreted
1 for us. Is that correct or did you say something else? It is between
2 what and what?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nova Kasaba is a settlement that,
4 when the division was carried out on the 13th of April 1992, came to
5 belong to the Muslim municipality of Nova Kasaba. No, the Muslim
6 municipality of Vlasenica.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. Was there a functioning government of the Muslim municipality of
10 Vlasenica in July 1995?
11 A. In July 1995, it did not exist in that area.
12 Q. Now, this is an image that's been generated by our mapping unit
13 based on internal data. For your orientation, we see Nova Kasaba at the
14 bottom, the football pitch identified just north up the road, and then
15 further up, there are two triangles identified as Nova Kasaba (1996) and
16 Nova Kasaba (1999).
17 Do you see those?
18 A. Nova Kasaba (1999), yes. No, that's not Nova Kasaba. There's
19 the territory of Bratunac municipality. This stream that goes westerly
20 from Svilile where these three houses are, constitutes a border between
21 let's say Vlasenica and Milici. So this triangle indicating Nova Kasaba
22 (1999) is --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down and repeat
24 the rest of his answer. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last part of your answer when
1 you referred to Nova Kasaba (1999), you said that was ...
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was the territory of Bratunac
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Which municipality would the football pitch have been in?
6 A. This football pitch is, as I said, on the border but in the
7 former single municipality of Vlasenica but after the division of 1992,
8 it was allocated to the Muslim municipality of Vlasenica, and it's been
9 recorded as such.
10 Q. Which functioning municipal government was governing that area in
11 1995? The Serb municipality of Vlasenica, or the -- or the municipality
12 of Milici?
13 A. In actual fact, until the division in the post-war period, this
14 was a no man's land. The Milici municipality ended far behind
15 Nova Kasaba on the ridge called Kapava Stijena, although you cannot see
16 it there.
17 Q. Now, the triangles that we see on the map reflect the two mass
18 graves that the Office of the Prosecutor is aware of along this road
19 where you've said those bodies were buried. Do they match your
20 recollection as to where the bodies you were describing were buried?
21 A. What you see written here, Nova Kasaba (1999), I've never seen
22 this grave. I've never even seen it being excavated.
23 As for the grave, it could have been there in the year 1996.
24 It's a grave under the fly-over on the road where the armed forces of the
25 28th Division committed the major breakthrough towards Cerska and there
1 were dead bodies left there. I suppose that the unit that carried out
2 sanitation measures only dug out a grave near the stream and buried the
3 bodies there.
4 Q. Now, when it says 1996, you're aware, aren't you, that an
5 exhumation was carried out in that area in 1996?
6 A. There were several exhumations there, and I cannot remember
7 whether it was in 1996 or in some other year.
8 MR. TRALDI: Your Honour, before I move on, I'll tender this map.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31486 receives number P6841,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
13 Could I ask you one question, Witness. You earlier said
14 Nova Kasaba (1999). In that could not be Nova Kasaba because the stream
15 there is the demarcation of -- now, looking at this map, would you agree
16 with me that Nova Kasaba (1996), that triangle, is at the same side of
17 that stream as Nova Kasaba (1999). The triangles are both situated to
18 the east of the stream. Would you agree with that?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The triangles are as they have been
20 plotted on, the triangles. Where this triangle is, there were houses
21 before the war and there are still houses standing there. I don't know
22 why --
23 JUDGE ORIE: The reason why I'm asking you this is because
24 earlier when you said this could not be Nova Kasaba because of the stream
25 being the border, that I understood that as a possible confusion that you
1 thought that Nova Kasaba (1999) was at the other side of the stream
2 compared to Nova Kasaba (1996), whereas, as I see them on this map,
3 they're both on the same side of the stream, that is, the easterly side.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. That's not the stream
5 that I said. I told you that the border-line between the municipalities
6 of Vlasenica and Bratunac, if you look to the right, Nova Kasaba (1999)
7 you can see the word Svilile. Now look at this elevation to 1996. It
8 descends and comes to the border between the municipalities. There are
9 houses and a restaurant and therefore why this area is called Djugum
10 after the restaurant.
11 JUDGE ORIE: My concern about a misinterpretation have been
12 removed. You referred to something different than I thought you did.
13 Mr. Traldi.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. Sir, since you suggested that the Nova Kasaba (1996) location
16 might be the one you're talking about, I'd like to look at another
17 exhibit, Exhibit P1834, page 32.
18 And while it comes up, the substantive evidence explaining the
19 locations that are represented by the triangles is found, for instance,
20 in the evidence of experts Haglund and Baraybar.
21 And page 32 of this document, please. It will be photographic so
22 if we could just zoom in on the one page.
23 Now, Mr. Haglund has analysed the graves exhumed in 1996
24 identified by the triangle you mentioned and discovered that 27 of the 33
25 victims found there were found with their hands tied behind their backs.
1 Now this is a picture, in fact, it's two pictures of the one of the
2 bodies exhumed at that location. You can see that his hands are bound;
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I'd put to you that your evidence that the people buried along
6 the road in these graves were killed trying to cross the road is false.
7 That the great majority of them were found with their hands tied behind
8 their backs and they were, in fact, captured and then murdered.
9 Do you have any comment on that?
10 A. Yes. On the 13th of July, I passed along this road.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: What year? 13th of July what year?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995.
13 In this section to the right, towards Svilile and the rest of it,
14 I saw dead bodies. I also saw behind the houses that I mentioned also I
15 saw bodies which were in kind of fetus position but, sir, as president of
16 the municipality I'd like to say something. During the breakthrough
17 carried out by the 28th Division above Gornji Mratinci, two members of my
18 former battalion were taken by the Muslims as prisoners.
19 Q. Sir --
20 A. -- until this very day their fate is unknown. It is possible
21 that these are two -- these two men. We are still searching for them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You mean the two on the pictures could be those?
23 Mr. Traldi, have these --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is possible. Nobody knows
25 anything about what happened to them.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So what you're telling us that it's possible that
2 the people you lost may have been captured and may have been then killed
3 and are the ones who are depicted here?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not perhaps. They were captured
5 and taken away. These are perhaps exactly these two. I suppose that DNA
6 will be obtained from their family members.
7 Do you want to hear the names?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, has DNA identification been performed.
9 MR. TRALDI: Yes, on the victims in this grave have been
10 confirmed to be Muslims.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, we are not interested in your suggestions,
12 in your allegations, your theories. These bodies, the DNA was taken from
13 the bodies and they have been identified and they are not the men you
14 suggest they are.
15 Could you please stick to factual knowledge you have in answering
16 any questions rather than to give room for your, what seems to be quite
17 some imagination rather than knowledge of facts.
18 Mr. Traldi, please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything I said is a fact.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, one more such comment and we'll finish your
21 testimony in this court because are you not here in a debating club.
22 You're here as a witness and you should carefully listen to the questions
23 and to the instructions given to you.
24 Is that clear? You're called by the Defence, and we'd like to
25 hear proper evidence as presented by the Defence, because that's as
1 important for us as any other evidence, but just allow us to do it.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. Sir, with that, I want to turn to your evidence about 1992.
5 Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P188.
6 This is a report from the East Bosnia Corps to the Main Staff
7 dated the 7th of June, 1992. I'd direct your attention to point 8. In
8 the English, I think we'll have to go to page 2. Here it reads: "In the
9 area of Zvornik we have around 500 prisoners, and in the area of
10 Vlasenica around 800."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. At this point, June 1992, Zvornik and Vlasenica were in the
14 East Bosnia Corps' area of responsibility; right?
15 A. Well, the 7th of June ... 7th of June ... it is possible.
16 Q. So what we see here is functional communication from those
17 municipalities up to the Main Staff about the prisoners being held there
18 at that point; right?
19 A. I haven't read it all. If you allow me to read everything?
20 Q. Sir, all I'd asked you about was point 8, which was one sentence.
21 Can I take it that you've finished reading that sentence?
22 A. I've read it.
23 Q. Those 800 in Vlasenica were being held in Susica camp; right?
24 A. I don't know. It doesn't say anything there. But I don't
25 understand it. It says at the top, the 7th of June, 1990.
1 Q. Can we agree that in June 1990, there was no Army of
2 Republika Srpska and no East Bosnia Corps?
3 A. I don't know. I know nothing about the Eastern Bosnia Corps. I
4 had too much business to take care of in the defence of the mine, so I
5 don't know anything about it. Since it says 1990, that's the only thing
6 I can see.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you are not invited to comment on the date.
8 This Chamber can see the date. The parties can see the date. You're
9 asked about what is reported here, there being around 800 prisoners in
10 Vlasenica, whether they were held in Susica camp in 1992, to your
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no knowledge about that, nor
13 did I have any at the time.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. At this point, you weren't part of the East Bosnia's Corps'
16 reporting structure to the Main Staff; right?
17 A. You got it completely wrong. The 7th of June. As of the 1st of
18 May until 18th July, we were constantly engaged in combat on the road
19 leading to the mine. It can easily be remembered because, on the 10th of
20 June, a village just before the mine was burned.
21 Q. Sir, I think you've answered a different question that the one I
23 Let me try it this way. When you were the commander at the mine,
24 who did you get your orders from?
25 A. While I was the commander of the defence of the mine, and I came
1 there sometime after the breakthrough which would, say, on or about 18th
2 of July, and that is when I arrived at the mine. That's it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- witness, again, that's not the question.
4 From whom did you receive orders at that point in time?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time, the brigade commander
6 was last name Andric, I cannot remember his first name. However, with
7 regard to the mine, I didn't receive orders from anyone.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's the answer to the question which we
9 would love to hear two minutes ago.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. TRALDI: Now could we have P6564.
12 Q. Now, this is an instruction by Branko Djeric then the prime
13 minister of Republika Srpska to the Boksit mine to supply fuel to
14 DD Romanijaprevoz in Pale, dated the 24th of May, 1992. So at that time
15 the authorities in Pale had communication with the Boxsit company; right?
16 A. I think you'd better ask Mr. Dukic about this. He was the
17 manager of Boksit.
18 Q. And Boksit was the largest company in the area and employed about
19 3200 people; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And Mr. Dukic was a member of the SDS Main Board and
22 Executive Board; right?
23 A. This is already the period when the Serbian Democratic Party
24 suspended all its activities. It can be found in documents. I wasn't
25 interested in that at all.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Stop. Stop you again. Was he a member of the SDS
2 Main Board at that time, whether functioning or not is a different
3 question. Was Mr. Dukic a member?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that he was ever a
5 member of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You apparently do not know but you think he
7 was not.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Was he a member of the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic
12 A. Not in this period. I don't know how long he was a member of the
13 Executive Board, which is a completely different thing.
14 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P3735.
15 Q. Now, this is the Vlasenica Serb Municipality decision appointing
16 its War Commission. Do you see the date is the 16th of June, 1992?
17 A. I do.
18 MR. TRALDI: And can we have P3046.
19 Q. Now, this is a decision by President Karadzic confirming the
20 appointment of the members of the Vlasenica War Commission. Do you see
21 the date is 17 June 1992?
22 A. 17th June.
23 Q. Sir, I'm showing you these documents because in paragraph 83 of
24 your statement, you say: "We were unable to get in touch with the state
25 and military leadership immediately because the communications were down
1 and the roads were not passable."
2 So I'd put to you that these documents show that your evidence in
3 that regard was not truthful, that there was rapid and functional
4 communication along both the military and political lines in June of
5 1992. That's true, isn't it?
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think, in all
7 fairness to the witness, I think he should be shown paragraph 33 -- 83 so
8 that he can see exactly and in its entirety what he said there before
9 giving an answer.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness would be shown paragraph 83, he can
11 read it during the break and then the question will be put again to him
12 after the break.
13 Mr. Traldi, you quoted a portion of it.
14 MR. TRALDI: I did, Mr. President. I quoted the specific portion
15 beginning at the end which I was asserting was clearly not truthful,
16 based on those documents.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, we'd like to see you after the break.
18 Could you follow the usher and be back in 20 minutes.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take that break, Mr. Traldi, and in the
21 absence of the witness, it may be that Mr. Stojanovic has some concerns
22 about the word "later" which appears halfway that paragraph, and where
23 the context in which "later" appears is not sharply defined. That may be
24 one of the issues Mr. Stojanovic had on his mind.
25 Could you please keep that in mind when further examining the
1 witness on that matter.
2 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. And, just for the record and to
3 facilitate preparations, I'm not sure where I am relative to my estimate
4 but I expect to finish in the first half of the upcoming session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's good. And that upcoming session will start
6 at 20 minutes past 12.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When I earlier said that DNA tests - and I'll just
10 find it, if you'll give me a second - when I earlier said that these
11 bodies, the DNA was taken from the bodies and they have been identified
12 and they are not the men you suggested they are, of course, what I was
13 doing was referring to what was --
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- presented as evidence in that respect which, if I
16 remember well, was that the challenged, at least the identification was
17 not challenged by the Defence and not as a factual finding of the Chamber
18 but just reference to what the evidence had told us until now. That's
19 hereby on the record.
20 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. Sir, have you reviewed paragraph 83 of your statement during the
24 A. It's nowhere to be found.
25 MR. TRALDI: Can we call it up on the screen then, please. It's
1 D699, if I recall.
2 Q. So I'd ask you to read just that paragraph to yourself quietly,
3 and then say yes when you've finished reading it.
4 A. I've read it.
5 Q. Before the break, we saw a report from the East Bosnia Corps to
6 the Main Staff dated the 7th of June, a request from the prime minister
7 to the Boksit Milici company dated 24th of May and communications from
8 the Vlasenica Serb municipality to Mr. Karadzic on the 16th of June and
9 Karadzic confirming that decision by the Vlasenica Serb municipality on
10 the 17th of June.
11 So what I'd put to you was your evidence in this paragraph that
12 we were unable to get in touch with the state and military leadership,
13 was not truthful than even at that time at the beginning of the war there
14 were rapid functional communications between Vlasenica and Milici and the
15 RS leadership. That's true, isn't it?
16 A. No. The beginning -- I consider April to be the beginning, and
17 the 19th of May. While the JNA was still there in the area, and that's
18 it. It's clear to me. That's the beginning. From the 19th of May, that
19 was a different period of establishing the Army of Republika Srpska, and
20 so on and so forth.
21 Q. I have two brief follow-up questions.
22 So when you said "we didn't have communications," you were
23 referring to the period before the 19th of May; is that right?
24 A. Yes, April, May. Let's say all that, this transition period.
25 And that pertains to this paragraph.
1 Q. And at the beginning of April, you've given evidence you yourself
2 were meeting with the JNA General Jankovic. You were able to go to Tuzla
3 to do it. You had communication at that time; right?
4 A. That's March, the 4th of March.
5 Q. Sir, can you repeat the date you just gave? You may have been
6 recorded incorrectly.
7 A. That is the 4th of March, the 4th of March, 1992. The day after
8 the Croatian army entered, I was at the command of General -- General -
9 I've just said his name - Savo Jankovic.
10 Q. Sir, I want to talk -- turn briefly to a couple of the events in
11 April -- sorry, in May and June of 1992 discussed in your statement.
12 In paragraphs 52 through 54, discuss what you call the incident
13 that occurred in Zaklopaca on the 16th of May, 1992.
14 When you say "the incident," over 60 Muslim men were killed in
15 Zaklopaca that day; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In paragraph 53, you say: "This occurred when JNA soldiers who
18 had left Tuzla and friends and relatives of the soldiers who died at
19 Milici decided to take revenge on the nearest Muslim village."
20 How did you learn that?
21 A. I learned that -- I learned the real truth from a man who was
22 there on the 16th of May, and who was a witness here at the trial of
23 Radovan Karadzic. For me, that's the real truth, in the real sense of
24 the word.
25 Q. Now, can you give the name of this witness in the Karadzic trial?
1 And if you'd prefer we go into private session to do it, we can do that.
2 A. No, no, no. Not necessary. He spoke publicly. Everybody knows
3 him, Muslims and Serbs. It is Bozidar Trisic.
4 Q. So the information you're giving here, you learned from
5 Mr. Trisic in 2013; is that right?
6 A. In that original sense, as he spoke here. And I heard about it
7 earlier on as well. The federal prosecutor's office -- well, actually, I
8 heard about it from him, what he said before this Court in 2013 I had
9 heard from him.
10 Q. I want to turn now to Susica camp. In paragraphs 35 through 37
11 of your statement, you provide information about who was held at Susica,
12 who decided to house Muslim there, and Muslim prisoners being taken from
13 there to Batkovic camp in Bijeljina.
14 When were you first told that people were being held prisoner at
16 A. Prisoners at Susica, well, that's probably that period -- well,
17 maybe the end of 1992. In 1992. I think it may be the end. Maybe even
18 earlier. In view of all the places where I was at the front line. Well,
19 maybe it was earlier too. Maybe. I cannot be very precise now. It's
20 certainly -- now, if I returned, say, before the 1st of November ... I
21 cannot say. I cannot say exactly. Maybe when I became commander of this
22 battalion. Maybe. Maybe earlier too. But I doubt it because once I was
23 up there at Rudnik for 48 days, successive days; once also for 30 days.
24 So 78 days.
25 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31466, page 244.
1 Q. Now, at line 11, you were asked: "Were you aware at that time
2 that this camp was established?" Speaking of Susica.
3 You responded: "I state that in this period, I did not know of
4 the existence of the Susica camp. I state that with full
6 You were asked: "When did you learn about it for the first
8 You responded: "I found out about it much later, and that was
9 through another Serb man. And I must say --"
10 And can we scroll down.
11 You were asked again when. And at the bottom of the page, lines
12 23 and 24, you said: "It's possible that ... was in late 1993, perhaps
14 You were not truthful with the Krajisnik Chamber when you gave
15 that testimony, were you?
16 A. I said something similar today. I don't know what the
17 interpretation that you received was. I said that today as well, 1992
18 and perhaps later ...
19 Q. Turning to page 246, same document, and at the very bottom,
20 beginning at line 23, said: "When I already knew that this really
21 existed, I asked one man, a Serb, what was actually going on in Susica,
22 and he told me: Don't worry, I've talked to a friend of mine," and then
23 we turn to the next page: "... a neighbour, who is a Muslim, and he told
24 me the following about the Susica camp."
25 And to summarise your evidence over the next ten lines or so, and
1 I'll trust that my friends will correct me if I'm summarising it
2 imprecisely. You said you had heard the nights were bad in Vlasenica
3 even though the curfew had been introduced. There was still a population
4 of ethnic Muslims there and some of them went to the cabins, complete
5 with beds, to spend the night and would return home in the morning.
6 Now, in fact, you say in your statement to this Chamber that you
7 know people were held prisoner there. You didn't tell the Krajisnik
8 Chamber that either, did you?
9 A. Everything I said was the truth, but obviously you are
10 misinterpreting that. This is something that was said to me by a man and
11 it was a Muslim who told him. So that's what you read out at the very
13 Q. To be completely precise, in paragraph 37 of your statement,
14 Exhibit D699, at the end of the paragraph, you say: "I heard that a
15 number of Muslim soldiers, taken prisoners by our soldiers, were put up
16 in this facility."
17 My question was: You did not disclose to the Krajisnik Chamber
18 that you knew people were being held prisoner there, did you?
19 A. I don't remember what I said, but I can't find it here now. I
20 testified for five days in Krajisnik. But I do know that in this place
21 that you call a camp, first refugees from Gorazde were put up there and
22 that's what I said for sure. And, after that, Muslims with their
23 families came there. They would spend the night and then on the
24 following day they would return and this was for the sake of their
25 safety. This is what a Muslim was saying. I remember in this lawyer's
1 office; Todorovic's office. I knew then and I know now that in that
2 period of time, the first 200 or whatever prisoners, I think that it's
3 somewhere in there, from Malina were put up in this collection centre,
4 and then from there, they were transferred to Batkovic. Of course, I
5 learned that earlier on or, rather, it is well known --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all unnecessary
7 microphones be switched off.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never saw Muslims from Vlasenica.
9 I never saw prisoners in this Susica camp, of course, because once I did
10 see them when arriving in Vlasenica, they were clearing the forest above
11 the asphalt road at the entrance into Vlasenica. If they were from
13 MR. TRALDI:
14 Q. What made you think they were from Susica?
15 A. If they were from Susica. I don't know what the interpretation
16 you received was.
17 Q. Let me ask differently. You were discussing Susica. You brought
18 up these prisoners who -- these persons who were clearing the forest
19 above the asphalt road. Why did you bring them up in the context of
21 A. Yes. If they were from Susica.
22 Q. I don't think you've answered my question. You were talking
23 about Susica. You brought this group of people up. What was the reason
24 that - in the context of talking about Susica - you brought up this group
25 of people who were clearing the asphalt road?
1 A. If they were from Susica. This is the third time I'm saying it.
2 I don't know how they are interpreting this to you.
3 Q. I won't push further as to the reason.
4 What was the approximate date you saw those people?
5 A. I cannot ... I mean, I'd even make a mistake if I were just to
6 tell you the month.
7 MR. TRALDI: Could we go into private session, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
9 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my cross-examination --
1 JUDGE ORIE: We do that in open session then.
2 MR. TRALDI: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MR. TRALDI: And in open session, that completes my
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Judge Fluegge has one question before we give an opportunity to
9 the Defence to re-examine the witness.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I just want to clarify one date.
11 You were asked, again, about the meeting with General Jankovic in
12 Tuzla. On page 50, lines 3 and 4, you said: "It was on the 4th of
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Earlier today - that can be found on page 31 -
16 you said, in line 5 to 7: "Look in the statement in Radovan Karadzic's
17 trial and in the statement here. It is clearly stated that on 3th of
18 April I was in Tuzla with General Savo Jankovic."
19 Which of the two is true?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth is that at the command of
21 Savo Jankovic, that I was there the day after the Croatian troops entered
22 Brod. And I said that in one place in Radovan Karadzic's statement. I'm
23 not sure if it's the 3rd or the 4th but I know that it was one day after
24 the Croatian troops entered Brod. And you can check that. And there's
25 no dispute there.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You contradicted yourself. Because first you
2 said 3rd of April, and later you said beginning of March. Which of the
3 two is true in your testimony today?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 4th of March.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why, then, did you say earlier today it was on
6 the 3rd of April?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of April, the Croatian
8 army entered Brod in Posavina. And I was over there, a day later, and I
9 described why I remember that because Colonel Stublincevic arrived from
10 Brod --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I'm not asking for that. I have no
12 further questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm afraid that,
16 again, we have a problem, and with your leave, I would like to clarify
17 the matter. I would like to indicate line 57 -- page 57. Line 7 of the
18 temporary transcript, and line 57 -- no, page 57, line 4 of LiveNote. In
19 order for all of this to be clear --
20 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Savkic, once again, please, let's take it
22 slowly do tell the Trial Chamber to the best of your recollection when
23 was the date when you came to General Savo Jankovic?
24 A. The date was the 4th of March, 1992.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We have to insist, earlier you explained us in
2 detail, or at least it was discussed in detail, why you had not signed
3 that document in which it was described, that the Crisis Staff was
4 established. That was a document dated the 4th of April. We dealt with
5 it in quite some detail because you explained, or you had explained in a
6 previous case, that you could not sign it because you had been meeting
7 the day before or the day itself, that is, 3rd or 4th of April, with
8 General Jankovic.
9 Now, that was all about the 3rd and the 4th of April.
10 In response to questions put to you by Judge Fluegge, you
11 confirmed, again, that it was April, because you said it was the day
12 after the Croatia army entered Brod and you said that was on the 3rd of
13 April, and now you're moving back to March again. This is highly
14 confusing, and I just want to make that clear to you, that moving three,
15 four times from April to March, confuses the Chamber.
16 Do you have any final answer to that, or was it the answer that
17 you gave to Mr. Stojanovic? Was it 3rd of April, or was it 3rd of March?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand you.
19 The meeting with Jankovic or the Croatian army entering. What's the date
20 that you would like -- I mean, what's the date that you're interested in?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Meeting with Jankovic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was with Jankovic on the 4th of
23 March, 1992, in Tuzla.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the other date, then, the Croatian army
25 entering Brod, what date was that?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day before, the 3rd of March,
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,
5 can we look again at D750, which is ...
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 705.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Which is a temporary number
8 assigned to this exhibit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I did put some questions to you,
10 Mr. Stojanovic, in relation to that document. We'd like to receive an
11 answer as soon as possible. But ...
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely the reason why
13 I asked for it and I have a question in that regard.
14 Q. Mr. Witness, in the B/C/S version, in the middle of the upper
15 part of the document, there is a text written by pencil which says
16 attachment number 12. In the English translation that had been uploaded
17 earlier, it reads: Attachment number 16.
18 Can you see these two numbers?
19 A. Appendix number 12?
20 Q. And on the right-hand side, you have an English translation at
21 the very top, the first line --
22 A. Yes, yes, it says here number 16.
23 Q. My question is: Do you know whose handwriting is this? And I'm
24 referring to attachment number 12 written in pencil?
25 A. That's my handwriting. That's my handwriting. And I entered
1 that for the purposes of Radovan Karadzic's trial.
2 Q. What motivated you to write this appendix number 12? What is it
3 supposed to signify?
4 A. A lot of things. A lot of things. For one, that the leadership
5 of the Patriotic League had been established, because all the members,
6 Ferhid Hodzic --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'll stop you. Most likely there is a
8 misunderstanding. Where you wrote appendix 12. This document was an
9 appendix to what exactly?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was attached. But before that,
11 I would have to look at my draft to tell you exactly. But, once again,
12 I'm telling you this is with relation to the date in this specific case.
13 The first entry says that the commission worked well in view of the
15 JUDGE ORIE: You -- you started very promising by saying, "It was
16 attached." Attached to what?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the Defence case of
18 Radovan Karadzic. It was attached to what I said -- because Redzic, Izet
19 had only one objection and that is that the date was wrong.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I'll stop you here for a moment. Did you provide the Defence
22 team of Radovan Karadzic a number of documents that you said is attached
23 to this statement?
24 A. About hundred or so.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you recall -- and I'll rephrase my question.
1 Have you ever in some other case - and I'm -- mean specifically, for
2 example, in the Karadzic case or Mladic case - did you mark this document
3 as appendix number 16? If you can remember.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, it's clear that the original states
6 Now why bother this witness with what are -- obviously are
7 translation or transcription issues. You started with that. Please put
8 your question again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a reason --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're not supposed to interrupt.
11 Could you please rephrase your question.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours.
13 Hopefully I provided answers to the questions that are crucial with
14 regard to the source of this text.
15 Q. Let me ask you at the end only this: Can you tell us,
16 Mr. Savkic, when did you write this? At what time? Was it before, or
17 after, or during your testimony in the Karadzic case?
18 A. Much, much before the testimony.
19 Q. Thank you. And I'll finish with this question. It relates to
20 the Prosecutor questions concerning information about the events in the
21 village of Zaklopaca.
22 Apart from the information that you received from the person
23 whose name you have given us, was there any other information that you
24 had concerning the events in Zaklopaca of that day?
25 A. I have read statements of some Muslims given to this Court, as
1 well as in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Lukavac, and I don't know whoever they
2 gave it to, so I had this opportunity and -- to review what the Muslims
4 Now, what Bozidar Trisic told me surprised me because I could
5 never assume that they held joint village guards, Muslims and Serbs, how
6 they regulated the passage of Muslims and Serbs, and so on and so forth.
7 And on that particular day, he said that they were having a feast, the
8 Serbs and Muslims together finally, when gun-fire was opened, both at
9 Muslim and Serb houses. It is contrary to some other testimonies heard
10 here that Zaklopaca was purely Muslim.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Savkic. The Defence has no further questions for
12 you, and thank you for finding strength to come to The Hague.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions, Mr. Traldi? If not, this
16 then concludes your evidence, Mr. Savkic in this case. I'd like to thank
17 you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the
18 questions, questions put to you by the party, questions put to you by the
19 Defence, and I wish you a safe return home again.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, there's one outstanding issue about the
24 document marked for identification.
25 MR. TRALDI: We maintain our objections, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Based exactly on what?
2 MR. TRALDI: The witness's lack of knowledge as to the original
3 condition of the document when it was discovered, his lack of memory as
4 to who provided him initially with a copy of the document, and the very
5 limited probative value of the document under those circumstances.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a completely opposite
8 position. I believe that witness has clearly explained how he had
9 obtained information regarding the source and the origin of this
10 document, and I believe that this document is relevant in the context of
11 this witness's statement.
12 And as for the question of assessing the probative value, will be
13 something to be decided by the Chamber.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, it should be relevant for the case as
15 well. The Chamber will -- any need to further respond, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI: I don't, I'm afraid, have the transcript references
17 for the points that I understand to be in dispute at my fingertips. I'm
18 happy to provide them at the end of today if Mr. Stojanovic wants to
19 respond to them tomorrow. But he seemed to disagree as to lack of
20 knowledge on certain points.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will defer its decision on admission and
22 gives the parties an opportunity to make further oral submissions - brief
23 oral submissions - not later than by tomorrow.
24 If we don't hear from the parties, the Chamber will decide on the
25 basis of the submissions made until now.
1 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
2 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are. We are call Mr. Pljevaljcic, Trivko.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
4 MR. LUKIC: And if I may ask the usher, before he leaves, to
5 distribute on his way, statement summaries.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that we get the witness in and
7 Mr. Usher then will distribute the documents.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 MR. LUKIC: And, you know, Your Honours, I apologise if I'm
10 interrupting you, but before the witness is with us, I would like to make
11 the application for extension of time for direct examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My answer is the same as it was before. We do
13 not, at this very moment, oppose. At the same time, Mr. Lukic, it
14 apparently becomes more or less a routine to ask for more time, and if we
15 then look at how much time, for example, for the last witness was taken
16 by the Defence, partly due to a totally chaotic preparation, and not
17 focussing on what really matters, then --
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- it may be clear to you that the Chamber will not
20 routinely follow you in your -- in your requests. 92 ter is there to
21 learn the evidence primarily from the statement, and this is just a
22 warning that we'll not continue this way.
23 Mr. Pljevaljcic, before you give evidence, the Rules require that
24 you make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed out to you. My I
25 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: TRIVKO PLJEVALJCIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic. Please be seated.
6 You'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find Mr. Lukic to
7 your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Pljevaljcic.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Will you please state your full name for the record but slowly.
13 A. My name is Trivko Pljevaljcic.
14 Q. Since the usher is not here, I will give you your statement later
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court 1D1671.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, you can see both in the screen
18 in front of you and in hard copy a document. I'd like to ask you if you
19 have given a statement to the Defence team of General Mladic.
20 A. Yes, I can see it. I have given a statement, and this is my
22 Q. Very well. You have already anticipated my next question
23 regarding the signature, so let's go now to the last page.
24 Do you see the signature on this page? And do you recognise it?
25 A. This is my signature too.
1 Q. According to what was recorded in the statement, was all this
2 accurate and truthful?
3 A. It is all accurate and truthful, and I stand by it.
4 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
5 essentially provide the same answers?
6 A. I would provide answers in the same manner.
7 Q. Thank you. After this, I would like to have this witness's
8 statement, 1D1671, to -- entered into evidence.
9 MR. JEREMY: Good afternoon, Your Honours, no objections.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1671 receives number D706,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D706 is admitted.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will read statement
15 summary of this witness. It's a very short one, and I would have some
16 questions for the witness, with your leave, and I promise that they will
17 be focussed.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, as you suggest.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Mr. Pljevaljcic was born in Foca on 6th of August, 1955. Prior
21 to conflict, witness was working in Foca, in Focatrans company.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, where does that appear in the statement
23 that he was working as a -- in Focatrans company? And I think did you
24 say as a lawyer or ...
25 MR. LUKIC: No, no, no. It was wrongly put in that -- our
1 motion, 65 ter motion. Not a lawyer.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I was a bit confused by him being a lawyer or
3 "lawver" as the 65 ter summary says. But then where do we -- do we have
5 MR. LUKIC: Obviously it's not in his statement. I can see that
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if I can identify that within ten
8 seconds, why you being responsible for the drafting of both the summary
9 and for the statement couldn't do it.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
12 During the conflict, witness was in the 3rd Company of the
13 5th Battalion covering area from Foca to Crvena Ravan. As of 1995,
14 witness was working in KP Dom Foca.
15 This witness will explain strike in Focatrans company, and that
16 this event was one of decisive events that caused the demarcation between
17 Serbs and Muslims and creation of ethnic division in Foca. Special
18 police units were engaged from Sarajevo regarding strike in Focatrans
20 Witness will explain that first barricades in Foca and organised
21 military activity was on the part of the Muslims. Those were located in
22 the vicinity of Aladza mosque as well as in Dobro Polje.
23 Serbs armed themselves from storages from Territorial Defence
24 but, first, clashes were provoked by Muslim side. Witness will explain
25 attacks on villages surrounding Foca.
1 According to witness, civilians were leaving Foca due to clashes
2 which occurred in April 1992.
3 According to witness, Aladza mosque was used for military
4 purposes by Muslim forces at the beginning of conflict. Serb by the name
5 of Trifkovic was killed from fire opened from Aladza mosque.
6 And that was the short summary.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, where do we find the strike and the
8 importance of the strike in the development of the events?
9 MR. LUKIC: I was mostly reading from our summary that was filed.
10 I only corrected lawyer but obviously we had several versions of the
11 statement, and ... as you can see, this statement was signed only on the
12 10th of July, 2014. So there are some --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then you should make a new summary after it was
14 signed. And if I understand you well, you had more than three months for
15 doing that. It doesn't make sense to present to the public what the
16 evidence is, if it's not the evidence.
17 Okay. We'll just ignore your summary at the time being and the
18 public is hereby informed that it does not accurately reflect what was in
19 the statement, although some parts certainly are.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 I have questions for this witness, with your leave.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please be more accurate in that. We're
24 closely following your examination-in-chief also in view of the fact that
25 you asked for more time.
1 MR. LUKIC: This first question would ask for an explanation from
2 the witness so this first one would -- the first answer might take
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, what do you know about the
5 organising and registration of ethnic political parties in
7 A. In the 1990s ethnic parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina started
8 being registered. Obviously the registration of ethnic-based parties
9 was - how shall I put it? - failing to yield any good to any people.
10 There was darkness descending. People felt some kind of a harsh tones,
11 especially at the party rallies. The Serbs sent a petition to the
12 constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina demanding that the
13 registration of ethnic-based parties be banned. However, the
14 constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina rejected that motion, and
15 since the Muslims registered their Party of Democratic Action and the
16 Croats registered HDZ after a couple of months, the Serbs were compelled
17 to register the Serbian Democratic Party.
18 Concerning the Party of Democratic Action in Foca who held its
19 first rally attended between 100.000 and 200.000 people. I even think
20 there were 20 or 30.000 people from Sandzak very harsh tones were heard,
21 addressed particularly to the Serb. The flags of the Muslims and Croats
22 were tied together which was yet another indication that they would act
23 in concert, that they had common goals. So very harsh statements were
24 made at this rally. They even publicly stated that Foca belongs to the
25 Muslims, that it had to be transformed, that it must establish links with
1 Sandzak and further on with Kosovo and then Turkey, and eventually
2 Islamic countries. Serbs held their own rally later that same year,
3 sometime in Autumn. In my view this meeting was a dignified one. Even
4 some Muslims were invited to attend. So that is how these first
5 frictions started in Foca in the 1990s.
6 As for Focatrans, it happened even a bit earlier than that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. We'll end on that note.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock. It's time to take a
12 Witness, we'd like to see you back in 20 minutes from now.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'll briefly comment on your first
16 First question is not in any way related to the statement of the
17 witness. That's one.
18 Second, the question was overly broad.
19 Three, nothing tells me that this witness is specifically
20 qualified to deal with such a question.
21 Fourth, the witness, in answering the question, mixed up events
22 and personal opinion. The events he describes not giving the factual
23 basis on which he was able to testify about these events.
24 If you continue like this, the extra time you asked for will not
25 be granted.
1 We take a break, and resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you may proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just want to inform
9 Your Honours that I cut down my questions short since I couldn't find
10 them the base in this short statement. So I probably will not need any
11 additional time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We've used 13 minutes up till this moment.
13 MR. LUKIC: Yes, thank you.
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, I'm going ask you something now
15 about the Muslim who is stayed on in Foca in relation to paragraph 14 of
16 your statement.
17 Did the Muslims assemble in certain places in Foca?
18 A. Since Foca, in terms of its territory, was the second largest
19 municipality in the former Yugoslavia, second only to Niksic.
20 Surrounding villages, some of them are even 20 or 30 kilometres away from
21 Foca, were predominantly Muslim and then when the conflict broke out
22 these Muslims somehow had to well, since their command and Crisis Staff
23 together with a large number of Muslims had left Foca, these civilians
24 had to be taken care of somehow. There were a few collection centres for
25 the Muslims. Some were put up, men usually, at the KP Dom, others were
1 in Partizan, some were in Codor Mahala and there were these smaller
2 collection centres. Some people stayed on in villages, however, it was
3 very hard to provide security for those civilians. The reason was as
4 follows: Since the war was already well under way, the Serb combatants
5 who had fallen victim, then their families, their relatives, well,
6 probably maybe there was some revenge as well, so the Crisis Staff
7 somehow had to take care of this civilian population, the Muslim
9 There were guards at all of these places, so these guards were
10 there. There was this incident in Codor Mahala where one volunteer from
11 Serbia, I think he was from up there, I think that the Serb guards killed
12 him. He tried to enter that house by force, the house where the
13 civilians were staying but he was killed. So the Serb population had a
14 lot of problems after that in Foca --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I stop you there.
16 Mr. Lukic, I'm interrupting because I try to assist you. You let
17 the witness now, for two and a half minute, answer not your question but
18 whatever he says, it's not focussed on your question. So, therefore,
19 we'll -- if you want to stay within your 30 minutes, rather, keep control
20 over the testimony of the witness.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you how you wish to proceed.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. So you anticipated a few of my questions that were about to come
25 up. This is what I'd like to ask you: The civilians who were guarded,
1 were they allowed to leave the places where they were? Let's forget
2 about the KP Dom.
3 A. Muslim civilians?
4 Q. Muslim civilians.
5 A. Yes, I understand. Well, absolutely. They could leave.
6 However, quite a few of them didn't want to then because they didn't know
7 where to go. Maybe their families were in different places. But, at any
8 rate, they wanted to -- I mean, they didn't want to at first. Until they
9 would find out where their own people were. That was the first ten days
10 or so and most of them left afterwards.
11 Q. Could they go tout a shop and buy whatever they needed; do you
12 know that?
13 A. Well, yes they could go out to a store although, well, stores.
14 It was already war time by then, and these dogs of war, as they call
15 them, had already looted these shops. But, anyway, the Red Cross was
16 giving some food.
17 There was some food but there wasn't as much food as there is
18 now. There was as much food for them as there was for the Serbs.
19 Q. Did your family take someone in? Someone from the ranks of the
20 Muslim population?
21 A. Well, yes. My cousin up there in my village who lives right next
22 door, he took in a lady with her two young children. She used to work at
23 the court-house in Foca. Kuloglija. Kuloglija was her last name. She
24 was there for a few days and I returned to her to my other relative in
25 town and then after that she left and the woman is alive and well to this
1 day and the children have grown up.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Pljevalcic. In view of the brief statement, these
3 are the all the questions that I have for you at this point in time.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have one follow-up question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You said, Mr. Witness, asked about the
9 possibility to leave these accommodations. And you said: Well, they
10 could go out to a store. My question is: Did they go out?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I wasn't providing security
12 there, but I know that the town was free, that it had been cleansed of
13 armed Muslim formations. I know --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not my question. Did they go out. If
15 you don't know, please tell me that you don't know.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what? I -- I don't
17 know who was detained there or who was taken care of there. I don't
18 know. I encountered Muslim men and women in town and --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not my question. You said: They could
20 go out. My only question is: Did they go out? If you don't know,
21 please tell me.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they did go out, and I would
23 see them in town. And later on, these same people left the town with
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you see them leaving these accommodation
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I mean, I'm saying I don't know
3 who it was that was in these centres, so that I could say well, that
4 person was in that centre and then I would encounter that person in town.
5 I saw quite a few Muslims in town and --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not talking about Muslims in general. I'm
7 talking about those who were accommodated at these places that you
8 described. You don't know if they really left for going out to the town.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I've also just one very short follow-up question.
11 Part of your answer was you said -- and I'm just verifying
12 whether these are the words you used. You said: I don't know who was
13 detained there or who was taken care of there. Were those the words you
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, are you ready to cross-examine the
18 MR. JEREMY: I am, Your Honours. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pljevaljcic, you'll now be cross-examined by
20 Mr. Jeremy. You'll find him to your right. Mr. Jeremy is counsel for
21 the Prosecution.
22 You may proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
23 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Jeremy:
25 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Pljevaljcic.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Now, you say in paragraph 4 of your statement that you were in
3 the 3rd Company of the 5th Battalion. How many men were in this company?
4 A. There were about 70, between 70 and 80. The situation varied.
5 Q. Now, I couldn't see it mentioned in your statement, but you were
6 the commander of this 3rd Company; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Fighting in Foca town started on the 8th of April, 1992; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And at this time you were guarding your village Orahovo. Yes?
12 A. In front. Between Foca and --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the other
14 part of the sentence.
15 MR. JEREMY:
16 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, could you repeat your answer. The interpreters
17 didn't catch it.
18 A. In my village that's on the outskirts, my village is not too far
19 away, but it's a biggish village. So it starts from the outskirts of
20 Foca and then it spreads over 5 to 6 kilometres.
21 Q. But it's correct that while you were guarding your village,
22 Orahovo, you were not in Foca town; is that correct?
23 A. Well, you know what? A town is never defended in that town or a
24 village in that village. We placed guards on the outskirts of Foca.
25 That is a neighbourhood called Aladza, and already from Aladza onwards,
1 there is a rural settlement, so these are the outskirts of Foca.
2 Q. I'll ask this in a different way.
3 During the first four or five days of the conflict, were you
4 either in Foca town or were you guarding your village on the outskirts of
5 your village in Orahovo?
6 A. Well, you know what? My unit was on the outskirts there as you
7 exit Foca. That's where the line was and they were guarding the village.
8 When the fighting started, it started with the Muslim artillery firing,
9 but the infantry started fighting from Donje Polje and that was towards
10 Aladza. So part of the combatants did take part in this infantry
12 Q. Mr. Pljevaljcic, the conflict started on the 8th of April, 1992.
13 You've just told us that. During the first four or five days of the
14 conflict, were you in Foca town, yes or no?
15 A. The first day of the infantry fighting, I did enter Foca. I
16 entered Aladza that was on the outskirts that was 300 metres away from
17 the lines. That's where the fighting took place. That's where the first
18 Serb combatant lost his life. I and a few of my soldiers did take part
19 in the infantry fighting.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, this will be an endless story about what
21 is Foca town.
22 You were closest to the centre of Foca town in what distance
23 during those first days? Were you any closer to 300 metre, 500 metre,
24 800 metres, 1 and a half kilometre?
25 What was your position closest to the centre of town?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the centre of Foca. Well,
2 let say 1 kilometre. Because Foca is not a big town. If you look at it
3 as a town.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 1 kilometre is 1 kilometre whether it is from the
5 centre from a big or a small town.
6 Mr. Jeremy, please proceed.
7 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours.
8 Q. Let's move on. Mr. Witness, in your statement, you that you were
9 wounded on the 14th of July, 1992; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. En you were wounded at Cerova Ravan; is that correct?
12 A. Cerova Ravan is down there towards Gorazde, about 20 kilometres
13 away; on the administrative line between Foca and Gorazde.
14 Q. What I want to know is, is that the location where you were
15 wounded in your -- and I'll tell you why I ask the question, in your
16 statement I read that you were wounded at Cerva Ravna,
17 C-e-r-v-a R-a-v-n-a, and I'd like to know if that ask the same location
18 as Cerova Ravan.
19 A. Yes. Cerova Ravan.
20 Q. Thank you. That's on the border between Foca and Gorazde; yes?
21 A. Yes, on the right bank of the Drina.
22 Q. Now you were wounded during a military operation in that area; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes, I was wounded when the Muslim forces attacked our positions.
25 Q. So I'll take your answer as yes.
1 Now, you were no longer in active service in the military from
2 this point onwards; correct?
3 A. I was not.
4 Q. After your wounding, you went to Belgrade to recover from your
5 injuries; correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And your injuries were serious; yes?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Now, you returned back to Foca from Belgrade in 1993; yes?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. When was that exactly?
12 A. You know what? Towards the end of 1992, I returned, a bit, and
13 then I was there, say, for ten or 15 days and yet again I went to
14 Belgrade. I was up there in Belgrade, recovering, and then I returned
15 for another day or two, and then I went to Igalo, to the medical spa down
16 there for medical treatment, and then I was recovering for about two
18 Q. All right. So after your injury in mid-July 1992, you went to
19 Belgrade and I understand that you, during this period, you returned to
20 Foca for ten or 15, 16 days; is that correct?
21 A. That's right. I returned only once that year, just before the
22 winter. I returned for a -- ten days or so and then I went back yet
24 Q. And do you recall the month in 1993 that you returned to Foca?
25 A. I cannot recall the month.
1 Q. Are you able to recall whether it was in the first half of the
2 year or in the second half of the year? Was it still winter? Spring?
3 A. I think it was the first half, but please don't take my word for
4 it. Because then I went down there to the medical spa in Igalo by the
6 Q. Okay. Now, in 1993, you became president of the War Invalids'
7 Association in Foca; correct? I see you're nodding but we'll need you to
8 articulate the answer for the record.
9 A. That's right, yes.
10 Q. Do you recall when this appointment took place? What date?
11 A. Well, it can be checked exactly, but I think it was just before
12 the Autumn. But that can be checked, the date. It's in the archives.
13 Q. Thank you. And while you were president of the War Invalids'
14 Association in Foca, where were you based?
15 A. We were based in the building of the Municipal Assembly of Foca.
16 Q. So that was in Foca town; correct?
17 A. The centre, the municipal assembly. The municipality gave us
18 these offices.
19 Q. Now, later, you became the vice-president of the veterans'
20 organisation; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And during this period, were you based in the same location
23 during the time that you were vice-president of the veterans'
25 A. Yes. All the time. It's just the office that was changed. It
1 wasn't the very same office. It was the one next door. But it was in
2 the same building and to this day, it is at the same location.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, in 1995, you went to work at KP Dom in Foca; is
4 that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move to paragraph 6 of your statement
7 where you discuss Josanica. And in that paragraph, you refer to an
8 attack by Muslim forces on the village of Josanica in December 1992.
9 During these events, were you still recovering in Belgrade?
10 A. Josanica happened on the 19th of December, 1992. Well, it's
11 possible. I mean, I'm telling, before the Autumn -- or, actually, before
12 the winter, I came for ten or 15 days; came to Foca.
13 Q. Were you an eye-witness to these events in Josanica, the events
14 you describe in paragraph 6 of your statement?
15 A. Yes. When that happened, and I think that that was a horrible
16 thing that happened in Foca. This is a great crime committed against the
17 Serb people, and no one has been prosecuted for that to this day.
18 Q. Witness, during this period, you were recovering from your
19 serious injuries; correct?
20 A. Well, I'm telling you, perhaps I was in Foca for the moment
21 during that period. But after my wounding, I was no longer capable of
22 doing military service, so it was the Military Medical Commission that
23 declared me unfit.
24 Q. Thank you. You've told us that you were wounded in
25 mid-July 1992. You told us it was a serious injury and your recovery
1 took --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jeremy, before you move on, I would like to seek
3 clarification of one of the answers.
4 You were asked about Josanica and the events there. You said you
5 eye-witnessed that event. Where exactly where you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously it wasn't translated
7 properly. I never said that. I was no eye-witness. I was in Foca. I
8 was in Foca on that day when that happened. That's what I've been
9 saying. I said that I saw the horror of the people who managed to get
10 out. That's what I've been saying.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The question that was asked was: Were you an
12 eye-witness to the events in Josanica, the events that you describe in
13 paragraph 6 of your statement. Your answer started by: Yes. And then
14 you continued to describe how horrible these events would have been.
15 Could you carefully listen to the question, because the yes
16 suggests that, in view of the question put to you, that you were an
17 eye-witness, but it has now been clarified. Carefully listen to the
19 Please proceed, Mr. Jeremy.
20 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. Just a moment please if
22 possible, Josanica is 15 or 20 kilometres way from Foca. I mean, I could
23 not have been an eye-witness there. Maybe we did not understand each
24 other properly. Maybe this was misinterpreted.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there's serious reason to believe that we
1 can verify that. At least it has been clarified now. I just ask you to
2 carefully listen to the question.
3 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Witness, in paragraph 15 of your statement, you refer to Jabuka,
5 and you say that this was it's first religious facility to be destroyed
6 in Foca. Now, here you're referring to the church in Jabuka; correct?
7 A. Yes. The Serb Orthodox church burned down as the Serb civilians
8 fell victim.
9 Q. Witness, you were not an eye-witness to the burning of this
10 church; correct?
11 A. I was not an eye-witness, but the images of the site where it was
12 burned down and then this old woman who was collecting corpses, these
13 images travelled all over the world, and the tombstones prove that that
14 happened, both for Josanica and Jabuka and Miljevina and all those other
15 places around Foca.
16 Q. Witness, in paragraph 6 of your statement, in the second
17 sentence, we read as follows: "Throughout the conflict, which is to say
18 for almost four years, I stayed in the same spot."
19 Now, given what you've just told us about your different
20 whereabouts during the period of the conflict, how should the Chamber
21 understand this part of your statement?
22 A. It is a fact that I was wounded and there's a document, a
23 military document, on the 14th of July at this place called Sip in the
24 area of Cerova Ravan. There is another fact, namely, that my company was
25 in the very same spot when Dayton happened. These are facts that cannot
1 be refuted.
2 The Muslims carried out forceful operations on several occasions
3 and we responded even more forcefully and then sometimes they even went
4 further in depth, but then we returned to our old locations, and that
5 happened later on as well.
6 MR. JEREMY: Thank you, Your Honours. Unless you've got any
7 further questions on this topic, I can conclude here and I note the
8 time --
9 JUDGE ORIE: One question. Saint Nicholas Feast is that -- in
10 the Orthodox calendar is when exactly?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 19th of December.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. No further questions.
13 I'm also looking at the clock, Mr. Jeremy. Perhaps it's time to
14 adjourn for the day.
15 MR. JEREMY: Yes, Your Honour. I continue to have questions in
16 cross-examination but I'm just concluding for the day.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that --
18 MR. JEREMY: Thank you.
19 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you back
20 tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom. Meanwhile, I instruct
21 you that you should not speak or communicate with whomever about your
22 testimony whether, that is testimony you have given today or whether that
23 is testimony we will still receive from you tomorrow. So no
24 conversations, no communication.
25 You may follow the usher and we'll see you back tomorrow.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day. We'll resume tomorrow,
4 Thursday, the 23rd of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
5 courtroom, I.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of
8 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.