Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27300

 1                           Monday, 27 October 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.  This

 9     is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             I do understand that the Defence wishes to interrupt the

12     testimony of Mr. Rajak and to first start hearing Mr. Banduka's evidence.

13     And that meets no objections --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No problem, Mr. President.  Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, could the next witness, which is Mr. Banduka,

16     be escorted into the courtroom.

17             Meanwhile I use the time to put on the record that the

18     Prosecution has advised the Chamber that it has received the B/C/S

19     translation for P06715, 65 ter 31183, MFI'd through witness

20     Milenko Indjic on the 3rd of September, 2014, and it was MFI'd pending

21     translation.  This is -- I've not verified it but I rely on the

22     information provided by the Prosecution.  We can see it at transcript

23     page 25188.  The translation, as we understand, has been uploaded into

24     e-court under doc ID R014-9738-BCS.  And if the Defence agrees, the

25     Prosecution requests that the court officer be instructed to attach the

Page 27301

 1     translation and that the document be admitted.

 2             P6715 is admitted into evidence.  If there are any reasons to

 3     revisit the issue of the translation, then the Chamber would like to hear

 4     within the next 48 hours.

 5             Yes, before I admit it, I first should have instructed

 6     Mr. Registrar to attach the translation of which I gave the details a

 7     second ago, to attach the translation to the original in e-court.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Banduka, I presume.  Before you

10     give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The

11     text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to make that

12     declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  RAJKO BANDUKA

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Banduka, please be seated.

18             Mr. Banduka, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You

19     find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

22                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Banduka.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   First of all, for the record, tell us your name but slowly.

Page 27302

 1        A.   Rajko Banduka.

 2        Q.   Mr. Banduka, did you give a statement to the Mladic Defence team,

 3     to me, to be more precise?  You provided a written statement answering

 4     the questions that were put to you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up

 7     65 ter 1D01745.

 8        Q.   Mr. Banduka, you have a text in front of you.  It's in B/C/S.

 9     Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether the information in this

10     part of the text is correct and also whether the signature on this page

11     is your signature.

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at the last

14     page of the document, please.

15        Q.   I assume that you have it before you.  Again, the same question,

16     Mr. Banduka:  Can you tell us whose signature this is and whether the

17     date was entered in your own hand?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Today when you entered the courtroom and when you

20     made the solemn declaration to tell the truth, would you answer the

21     questions that were put to you in the same way as is recorded in your

22     statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Banduka.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it is

Page 27303

 1     the right moment to tender Mr. Rajko Banduka's statement.  The 65 ter

 2     number is 1D01745.  I would like to tender this document into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the Prosecution, but I don't know

 4     whom to look at.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, no objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D711, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D711 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

10     would like to read a summary of Mr. Rajko Banduka's statement.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Rajko Banduka is a

13     professional soldier, a career soldier.  When the war started he was in

14     Sarajevo.  He was the aide-de-camp of the command of the 2nd Military

15     District of the JNA.  When the war broke out, he was arrested when a JNA

16     column was leaving Sarajevo.  When he was released from prison, he was

17     moved to the Han Pijesak garrison.  Over there, he became the

18     aide-de-camp of the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska.  He has remained in that position until the end of the

20     war.

21             He will testify about the setting up of the Main Staff of the

22     Army of Republika Srpska, about the capabilities of the Main Staff in

23     terms of personnel and equipment, on the communications means used by

24     General Mladic while he was at Crna Rijeka facility.  He is -- he will

25     also testify the functioning and the organisation of work of the

Page 27304

 1     Main Staff of Republika Srpska, as well as of his specific tasks and his

 2     relationship with General Mladic.

 3             He will describe in detail the communication system which was

 4     housed in the facility where General Mladic stayed in Crna Rijeka.  He

 5     will also speak about the process of decision-making at the Main Staff of

 6     the Army of Republika Srpska.  He is familiar with the way of work and

 7     the attitude of General Mladic towards subordinated officers.  He

 8     particularly emphasises his military and professional attitude towards

 9     the civilian population.  He says that there was no desire on his behalf

10     to retaliate against the enemy side even under the most difficult

11     circumstances.  He also speaks about the attitude of General Mladic

12     towards paramilitary groups and his desire to extend assistance to

13     everybody irrespective of their ethnic affiliations.  He also speaks

14     about his own tasks and duties at the moment when General Mladic was not

15     at the Crna Rijeka facility.

16             He also says that Mr. Mladic, as the commander of the Main Staff

17     of the VRS, spent a lot of his time on the front lines amongst his people

18     and soldiers.  He also underscores all of his human and moral values and

19     character traits.

20             Your Honour, this was a short summary of this witness's

21     statement.  With your leave, I would have a few questions for the

22     witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please put questions to the witness, Mr. Stojanovic,

24     preferably about facts.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  I

Page 27305

 1     would like to call up 711.  D711, paragraph 2.

 2        Q.   In this paragraph, Mr. Banduka, you will see one part of your

 3     statement.  In paragraph 2, you say that you bear witness to an agreement

 4     between the then-president, Alija Izetbegovic; General Milutin Kukanjac;

 5     the UNPROFOR commander, General MacKenzie; the head of the European

 6     Monitoring Mission, Colm Doyle; and others, regarding the peaceful

 7     retreat and passage of a JNA column towards Lukavac.

 8             Please explain to the Trial Chamber what you mean when you say

 9     that you bore witness to those agreements?  What did you personally see

10     and hear?  Please stick to the facts.

11        A.   Yes, I was physically present in the meeting room after

12     President Izetbegovic arrived from Lukavica.  The room was

13     General Kukanjac's office, where Mr. Izetbegovic had a cup of coffee.  He

14     was accompanied by Mr. Zlatko Lagumdzija and his daughter, and they were

15     joined with other highly ranked officials of the then-MUP of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In that room there were also high-ranking officers

17     of the then-JNA, including the commander of the 2nd Military District.

18             There was a request made that the movement of the column should

19     be delayed by another 15 or 20 minutes, which would have allowed the

20     column to be properly formed, for all the stuff to be loaded onto the

21     vehicles.  I was physically present there when that was happening.  I saw

22     the sentiment of all the participants in that meeting.  I realised that

23     things would go smoothly, in a dignified manner.  I believe that that

24     would be the case.

25             After that coffee break, we went out to the courtyard of the

Page 27306

 1     command of the 2nd Military District.  President Izetbegovic and

 2     General MacKenzie shook hands with the soldiers.  They were observing

 3     them packing and leaving, and then they decided to leave.  That was the

 4     first piece of information I had about the event.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I just -- is there any dispute about the

 6     agreement having been concluded and is there any issue taken by the

 7     Prosecution about who were present when this agreement was signed or ...

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't -- I don't have a dispute at this point,

 9     but I --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Whether something could arise in the future.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, you never know.  Mr. Stojanovic, there

13     seems to be at this moment neither about the existence nor about -- at

14     this moment about the agreement dealing with matters as described.

15     That's the withdrawal.  So, therefore, why then ask whether we -- the

16     participants had coffee or tea or water to drink.  It's irrelevant and

17     there's no dispute.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you gain an impression about the fact whether

21     Alija Izetbegovic was in control of the situation, whether he could have

22     any influence on the departure of the column?

23        A.   President Izetbegovic himself offered that he would come and that

24     he would escort the column from the command of the 2nd Military District

25     to Lukavica.  It had been agreed that he would get into another vehicle

Page 27307

 1     on the Skenderija bridge, that he would go to the Presidency building,

 2     and then eventually he would meet General Kukanjac in Nedzarici after the

 3     column arrived Lukavica.  I saw concern on his face.  I was not sure that

 4     he was really in control of the whole situation, irrespective of the fact

 5     that he was physically present and that he had made all the promises that

 6     he did.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And now let's look at paragraph 5 in your statement.

 8     In it you say that the Main Staff was set up and that personnel arrived

 9     in the command, and then the system of communications was set up and

10     allowed you to have a direct protected connection with the corps

11     commanders and the commander of the air force.  In view of your military

12     education, could you please tell the Court what kind of communication

13     system did you have at the facility where General Mladic stayed when he

14     was in Crna Rijeka?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we just could get a time-frame, it would take

17     some of the vagueness out of that question.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you accommodate the concerns

19     expressed by -- yes, please.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Banduka, the suggestion was understandable and in view of

22     that, can you please explain:  When you say when the Main Staff was set

23     up, when was that?  Do you mean that this answer is relative to the first

24     year of the functioning of the Main Staff of the VRS?

25        A.   The communication system that I had and that was exclusively used

Page 27308

 1     by General Mladic for his command functions was an interphone.  By

 2     pressing on a button he could communicate directly with his subordinated

 3     units, and those were the corps and the air force.  That connection was

 4     protected, it was encrypted, which means that one of the direct

 5     participants was the commander of the Main Staff and the other

 6     participant was the corps commander.

 7             Besides those encrypted and protected connections there were

 8     other means of communications but they were not protected and they were

 9     provided from the local switchboard.  There were numbers attached to

10     those lines and those lines could be used in communication with other

11     protagonists of the communication system.  In addition to that, we also

12     had two civilian numbers, as it were, which were used in communication

13     with the telephone numbers abroad and other people, and so on and so

14     forth.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, still the place - and that's what

16     you started asking about - and the time is still unclear.

17             What you just told us, was that the situation in Crna Rijeka?

18     Witness?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Banduka, could you please answer.

21        A.   Yes, I will answer.  That facility was where I and General Mladic

22     stayed.  It was separated from the Main Staff and the Main Staff was

23     where the interphone was and from there --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, before you tell us whether it was at the

25     corner or at a place or whatever, my question was:  Was that in

Page 27309

 1     Crna Rijeka?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Crna Rijeka.  At the facility

 3     where General Mladic stayed, where he was billeted.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  From when to when was that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the first day of 1992, from

 6     the 9th of May until the end of the war.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Those telephone lines that you spoke about and those

10     communications means that you referred to, could they be intercepted by

11     the enemy side from other territories and from other states?

12        A.   Those direct lines with the commanders and the air force

13     commander could not be intercepted because they were encrypted, while the

14     civilian lines, the switchboard numbers and the participants who

15     communicated via those numbers, their conversations could be intercepted.

16        Q.   Regular combat reports, interim combat reports that subordinated

17     units submitted to the Main Staff of the VRS, where did they end up?

18     Where did they arrive physically?

19        A.   Every written piece of information was encrypted.  Telegrams were

20     sent and arrived at the encryption station at the communications centre.

21     It was received by a person who processed or, rather, opened that

22     information, as we say.  He would then pack it into an envelope and

23     handed it over to the operative centre of the Main Staff of the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   In view of the functions and you -- you had and duties you

Page 27310

 1     performed throughout the war, could you tell us whether General Mladic

 2     was ever in a situation or was he in a situation to receive those daily

 3     combat reports from subordinated units every day, did they arrive at his

 4     desk every day?

 5        A.   No.  Things did not transpire that way.  General Mladic and

 6     myself did not receive that information.  That information did not reach

 7     me.  That information ended up in the operative centre and at the staff

 8     which was a kilometre to 2 kilometres away from us.  The reason for that

 9     was that General Mladic did not spend a lot of time in Crna Rijeka [as

10     interpreted].  He was in the units and in the field.  As for the

11     information and its contents, if he was there, he would be conveyed that

12     information from the operative centre of the Main Staff or the Chief of

13     Staff himself.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I've just been told that on

16     page 10, line 11 -- no, page 11, line 3, I'm sorry, Your Honours, it says

17     "Crna Rijeka."

18        Q.   Could you please explain this?  In response to this question, did

19     you say that when General Mladic was not in Crna Rijeka or when he was

20     not with you?

21        A.   You really have to clarify this for me.  I don't know what you

22     actually mean.

23        Q.   Among other things, when responding to my question, you said

24     where regular and interim combat reports arrived, those coming from

25     subordinate units.  And then you went on and you said that at moments

Page 27311

 1     when General Mladic was not, and so on and so forth.  I have no other way

 2     of asking you.  When he was not where?

 3        A.   Regardless of whether he is with me in the room, the telegrams

 4     did not end up with us.  Rather, telegrams waited for him at the

 5     operation centre in Crna Rijeka or with the Chief of Staff.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Banduka.  At this point in time, we have no

 7     further questions for you.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             Before the Prosecution will cross-examine you, Judge Fluegge

10     first has a question for you, Witness.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just one additional question to paragraph 2 which

12     was dealt with by Mr. Stojanovic.  You are talking about two different

13     matters in paragraph 2.  First, your capture, your imprisonment by

14     Green Berets and Patriotic League.  When have you been released from that

15     detention?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of May, I was taken

17     prisoner during the notorious Dobrovoljacka Street affair and then --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please listen to my question.  I wanted to know

19     when you were released.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 6th of May, 1992.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you were in detention for three days.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The second matter you dealt with in paragraph 2

24     is the meeting of Mr. Izetbegovic and General MacKenzie.  When did that

25     take place?

Page 27312

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not speak about a meeting.  I

 2     spoke about the arrival of General MacKenzie and President

 3     Alija Izetbegovic on the 3rd of May, with the motive as follows --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I'm not asking you -- I'm not asking you

 5     about any motive.  You stated in your statement:

 6             "I witnessed the agreements between the then-president,

 7     Alija Izetbegovic, General Kukanjac, and to the UNPROFOR commander,

 8     General MacKenzie, and others."

 9             When was that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of May, around

11     1400 hours.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means on the same day when you were

13     captured.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the

18     witness?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by

21     Mr. McCloskey.  Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution.  You find

22     him to your right.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

24        Q.   Good morning, sir.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 27313

 1        Q.   What was your rank in 1992 and throughout the war?

 2        A.   I was a warrant officer.

 3        Q.   So that's under a lieutenant.  It's not a commissioned officer.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And let's stay with your statement at D711.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could have page 2 in the English.

 7        Q.   And in this -- looking at paragraph 4 - it's also page 2 in the

 8     B/C/S - you describe that General Mladic -- that the conditions in which

 9     he was throughout the war were very modest and that it was more important

10     for him that the people in the army had better conditions than him.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we now go to 65 ter 31502.

12        Q.   What's this?

13        A.   This is the facility where General Mladic and I were.

14        Q.   This is located in Crna Rijeka at the command post?

15        A.   Yes.  It is about a kilometre and a half or two away from the

16     other buildings.

17        Q.   And this is known as the Villa Javor?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And this is right near the entrance to the underground bunker

20     that goes under the hill?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So this the modest accommodation you're speaking of in your

23     statement?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   Let's go to page 3 of your statement.

Page 27314

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Both languages.  That's the same D711.  Same

 2     thing.  Yes.

 3        Q.   And in looking at paragraph 7, if we look at the bottom of

 4     paragraph 7 you say:

 5             "My conclusion is that he never reached decisions or wrote orders

 6     on his own but with the help of and after a joint analysis with the staff

 7     and the operations centre."

 8             You've also said today that he communicated with his corps

 9     commanders.  So I take it his corps commanders were part of that joint

10     decision-making process?

11        A.   You did not put a good question to me.  Not from there.  Not from

12     that place.

13        Q.   Were his corps commanders someone that he listened to in making

14     his decisions, as far as you know, being the communication facilitator

15     that you have described?

16        A.   Yes, he would hear what they had to say, but over the telephone,

17     conversations were very brief, without going into any kind of detail or

18     without issuing any kind of orders.  For the most part, this was done in

19     writing.

20        Q.   You knew those -- some of those conversations --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, you said, Witness:

22             "For the most part, this was done in writing."

23             What was done in writing for the most part?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Orders, directives -- actually,

25     orders and everything else that was derived from that.  That was created

Page 27315

 1     in the staff or the operations centre.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The issue discussed and asked about was the

 3     input of the corps commanders, not about in what way decisions or orders

 4     were communicated.  That's why I was confused about "this was done in

 5     writing."

 6             Would you say that brief telephone conversations were the

 7     exclusive source of input by the corps commanders, which assisted

 8     General Mladic in preparing his decisions?  Is that what you are telling

 9     us?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it can be put that way, but

11     not entirely.  Why am I saying that?  Because corps commanders did not

12     present details over that telephone.  It was just an opportunity to talk

13     and to give him brief answers to questions that he put.  I could not

14     formulate that because I didn't even listen.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer the picture of the villa,

16     65 ter 31502, into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6848, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P6848 is admitted.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:

21        Q.   Now, the operations centre you spoke of that was -- it was down

22     the hill from the villa some distance.  What was the distance again?

23        A.   As the crow flies, perhaps not even 6- to 800 metres, but the

24     road that led there is about 1.2 to 1.5 kilometres.

25        Q.   Now, in times where there was security concerns, such as NATO

Page 27316

 1     bombing or attacks from the enemy, did Mladic and his command staff have

 2     the ability to move into the bunker and carry on the operations centre

 3     and communications from the bunker?

 4        A.   Yes, that was possible.  And that did happen during the bombing,

 5     that briefly we went to that command post.

 6        Q.   And the area where the operations centre was down the hill, or a

 7     distance that you've described, that was two narrow wooden buildings next

 8     to each other where the offices of the staff and the assistant commanders

 9     were?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   That's where the Chief of Staff and deputy commander,

12     General Milovanovic, had an office?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Mladic also had an office there that he could use when he was in

15     the mood to leave the villa.

16        A.   No, he did not have an office.  But he used the office of the

17     Chief of Staff or the operations centre.

18        Q.   And in 1992, who was the chief of operations and training that

19     you spoke of when you referred to the combat reports?

20        A.   Well, I cannot remember the name right now, who it could have

21     been in 1992.  If it wasn't General Miletic, then I don't know the name.

22        Q.   In 1995, at least you know it was General Radoje Miletic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And in your statement, on --

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to page 4.  B/C/S, both languages.

Page 27317

 1        Q.   You talk about getting seriously ill in May of 1995 and that you

 2     were hospitalised in Belgrade until 26 May 1995.  And that you were --

 3     and I quote:

 4             "I was able to observe all the events surrounding Srebrenica and

 5     Zepa only on TV."

 6             And where were you watching the Srebrenica and Zepa events on TV?

 7     Where were you then?

 8        A.   I was in my apartment in Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   When did you go back and start working again for the VRS and

10     General Mladic?

11        A.   Because of illness, I had been declared unfit for a longer period

12     of time.  The hospital of the Main Staff granted me 90 days of

13     sick-leave.  However, during the first half of August 1995, I came to

14     visit them at my own initiative, and that's how I stayed on.

15        Q.   So did you start up work again the first half of August 1995?

16        A.   Approximately.

17        Q.   It could have been the first week of August 1995, couldn't it

18     have been?

19        A.   I do not remember exactly.  I don't remember the date.  I was not

20     fit to work, but I was physically present, probably.

21        Q.   Did you -- had you come down with hemorrhagic fever?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And one of the symptoms of that is the difficulty in urinating?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we go to 65 ter 31493.

Page 27318

 1        Q.   As you've told us, you knew that you were being listened to by

 2     the enemies.  You haven't testified here before, have you?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Were you told or were you aware that the Prosecution had many

 5     intercepts of -- from the Muslims and the Croatians before testifying?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems me that

 8     perhaps this document should not be broadcast to the public in view of

 9     our practice to date.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you for that reminder.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Not to be shown to the public.  And to the

12     extent it has been done already, to be redacted.  It has not been done.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

15             And we can see that this is from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     the 2nd Corps command.  It's dated the 3rd of August, 1995.  And let's go

17     to the next page in both languages.  It's page 2 in the B/C/S; 3 in the

18     English.

19        Q.   Now, we could see from the initial page that this was a

20     conversation between a Dr. Zale and a Rajko Banduka.  Did you know a

21     Dr. Zale?

22        A.   Dr. Zale, no; but Dr. Zdrale, yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  For that correction of my bad pronunciation and the

24     clarification.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to the next page in the English.

Page 27319

 1        Q.   And you can see, as you look at this, that the doctor is just

 2     calling to ask you about your health and you say that you had hemorrhagic

 3     fever.  And the doctor asks if you were blocked from urinating, and you

 4     said yes.

 5             And we see down near the bottom of it that when the doctor asks

 6     you:  "Good.  Any aftermaths?"  And you say:  "So far no.  The medical

 7     board gave me another three months and I am back to work now.  I feel all

 8     right most of the time."

 9             So is this a real conversation, in your view?

10        A.   Most probably, yes.

11        Q.   So does this help refresh your recollection you were actually

12     back at work at least on the 3rd of August, 1995?

13        A.   I've already said that physically I was probably there and that I

14     probably spoke to friends on the phone.  But that I was completely

15     capable of working, no.

16        Q.   Well, you told this doctor you were back at work.  Were you not

17     being honest with him?

18        A.   Well, I don't know what else I could have answered.  As soon as

19     he heard my voice, I said to him that I was back at work.

20        Q.   All right.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'd offer this 65 ter 31493 into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6849, under seal.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence, under seal.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

Page 27320

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Banduka, as I've read from your statement in

 2     paragraph 14, you state and you've clarified here that you were not in

 3     Crna Rijeka during Zepa or Srebrenica.  You were in Bijeljina.  It's the

 4     Prosecution's position, sir, that during the Zepa operation, which was in

 5     July, the period of July 13th through the 19th, when the population was

 6     bust out on 25th and 26th and the fighting continued beyond that, that

 7     you were as early as 19 July working at your post in Crna Rijeka.  And I

 8     have some intercepts to show you, so I want you to think very carefully

 9     before asking -- before answering my question.

10             Now that you think about it, sir, were you not, in fact, working

11     during the Zepa operation in Crna Rijeka for your commander?

12        A.   No.  I state with full responsibility that I was not.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- were you in Crna Rijeka at all, working or

14     not?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not in Crna Rijeka

16     physically.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:

19        Q.   You said that you state with follow responsibility.  Is that

20     something -- is that a statement that you received in some sort of

21     training with the JNA?  I've just heard this repeatedly in this courtroom

22     and I'm just wondering is this something that is part of the training?

23        A.   I don't understand that question.  I don't understand what you're

24     asking me.  It's a normal word.

25        Q.   All right.

Page 27321

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Let's go to 65 ter 27547.

 2        Q.   And, sir, sometimes when the Muslim police or army were

 3     intercepting, they would summarise intercepts, and I'm about to show you

 4     a summary of an intercept that is dated, as you can see in the Serbian,

 5     22 July 1995.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Any need to have it under seal, Mr. McCloskey?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, there is because I see at the bottom there

 8     is -- so we should -- it not -- not broadcast it.  Thank you,

 9     Mr. President.

10             And if we could have the English for the -- for the Court,

11     please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  I'm afraid, Mr. McCloskey, the English has not

13     been attached as yet.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ah.  We will endeavour to attach it.  But in the

15     meantime, I think we can all see that this is dated 22 July.  And the

16     first paragraph talks about the -- that they registered three calls from

17     General Gobillard --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The English is on the screen as well now.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.

20        Q.   And who was looking for Mladic, and Mladic was in the field and

21     would be back.

22             Then the next paragraph says:

23             "We registered quite a few calls where members of the aggressing

24     army were looking for Mladic.  While talking to them, Rajko Banduka, an

25     officer in the VRS Main Staff, said that Mladic was away and that he was

Page 27322

 1     doing his job which was going slowly, but, still, it's progressing and it

 2     would soon be done."

 3             And the intercept folks said that you meant Zepa.

 4             Does this help -- help you, were you fielding calls about

 5     General Mladic on this date, 22 July?

 6        A.   No, I was not fielding calls and I simply cannot link myself to

 7     this statement and this intercept.  Otherwise, if you wish, I can provide

 8     a further explanation.  All of these people who could listen to that

 9     phone, they identified the phone with me, but I was not there physically.

10     So this is just a pure formality, that everything that happened on that

11     frequency and that was intercepted was identified with me.  I would be

12     replaced by the courier, by the operator there, and so on.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I offer this into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6850, under seal, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P6850 is admitted, under seal.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I believe it's break time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's time for a break.  However, I would have

19     one very small question.

20             You said that you were replaced by the courier, operator there,

21     and so on.  Would that mean that if they received a call that they would

22     say, "This is Banduka speaking"?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they wouldn't say that.  But

24     all the participants who call often would think that it was I who was

25     there.

Page 27323

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  How did they introduce themselves, if not by, "This

 2     is Banduka speaking"?  Would they do it by their own names or by their

 3     function or by their location?  What would they do which makes you

 4     believe that everyone would think it was Banduka speaking?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, usually, and that is according

 6     to the rules actually, that names and surnames are not mentioned during

 7     our telephone conversations.  Rather, it is a number or the code for the

 8     participant in the conversation.  Whereas these people who knew me

 9     probably thought that I was the only one who was there.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11             We'll take a break.  Could you please follow the usher.  We'd

12     like to see you back in 20 minutes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, in terms of time, are we on schedule?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's taken a little bit longer and given some of

16     his answers, I probably I'm -- Ms. Stewart tells me I have five more

17     minutes.  I would probably need an additional five or ten after that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then that stays within acceptable limits.

19             We take a break and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 27324

 1        Q.   Mr. Banduka, on the same subject I want to show you an intercept,

 2     it's P1384.  And this is from the CSB or state security of Tuzla, Bosnian

 3     MUP, as you know.  And this is dated the 19th of July, 1995.  And we have

 4     heard evidence in this Court that sometimes the intercept operators were

 5     only able to hear one side of a conversation, and that's the case in this

 6     particular intercept.  You can see that the CSB has described a telephone

 7     operator as Banduka saying:

 8             "That number isn't operational so I had to reach you like, this,

 9     contact me to the boss's house.  Come on.  Yes, yes."

10             Then we look at the rest of it, and it's General --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You're recording as quoting "contact" whereas it

12     reads "connect."

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you for that fixing.

14        Q.   And if we look at the rest of it, we just hear General Mladic's

15     side of the conversation, ending with:  "Zepa has surrendered."

16             Now when you contact Mladic to someone, do you stay on the line

17     and listen in?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   So were you working on the 19th of July when this intercept lists

20     a person named Banduka as taking part?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   All right.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, where does it say so exactly?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In the second paragraph, it's the telephone

25     operator where it says:

Page 27325

 1             "Banduka, that number isn't operational so I had to reach you

 2     like this.  Connect me to the boss's house."

 3             This is the --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, due does that mean that Banduka participated in

 5     that conversation or that the usual avenue, that is, through Banduka, was

 6     not operational at that point in time and that therefore they had to

 7     reach Mladic by other means.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It wouldn't be fair to say he participated in the

 9     conversation.  He participated in the initialisation of the conversation

10     would be clearer.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, even that, I don't know whether I could repeat

12     that for you reading this, Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, that's the -- the position of the

14     Prosecution --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- is that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine but --

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- this is him taking the call and getting the

19     phone to General Mladic, which is what his job was apparently.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is whether the -- what this

21     paragraph means, as a matter of fact, and let's leave it to that at this

22     moment.  Whether it means that the connection was established through

23     Banduka or whether the connection was not established through Banduka, I

24     think both interpretations ...

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 27326

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, of course, it's up for the

 2     Trial Chamber to evaluate this.  I did want to give the witness the view

 3     of the Prosecution and to the Chamber so you knew where I was going from.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you presented it as -- as reality, where you

 5     didn't said [sic]:  The Prosecution understands this as being this and

 6     this and this.  But let's -- let's move on.  The matter appears to be at

 7     least that there is an issue which may need further discussion, that has

 8     been established.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, I think there's a difference in

10     the B/C/S and in the English version insofar as after the name Banduka in

11     the English version, there's a comma but not in the original B/C/S.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  That's an --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps that's a difference --

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- important --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- to understand the document.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you very much for

17     that.  And --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- the witness said that -- I think he has

19     answered the question or hasn't he?  Let me just have a look.  Yes, the

20     witness has answered the question, that he was not working on that day.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:

24        Q.   And, Mr. Banduka, this Chamber has also heard evidence that the

25     Croatian government was also intercepting your VRS and RS transmissions,

Page 27327

 1     and in that regard, I want to show you another intercept, which is

 2     65 ter 22185.  And this also should be noted as occurring on the

 3     19th of July.  This one at 2059 hours.  The last one we saw was noted by

 4     Muslim state security as 2100 hours.  And we'll see that when it comes

 5     up.

 6             And in this conversation, it appears the Croats were able to get

 7     a bit more of the conversation in the opinion of the Prosecution.

 8             So please take a look at this.  It also identifies this as a

 9     transcript between General Mladic, first on the telephone is his

10     secretary, Warrant Officer Second Class Rajko Banduka.  You've told us

11     you were a warrant officer.  Did the Croatians get your class correct?

12        A.   It says "Warrant Officer Second Class Rajko Banduka," and my

13     answer is the same as to the previous question.  I was not there.  I was

14     not the one who established that communication.

15        Q.   My question was, sir, very simple:  Were you a warrant officer

16     second class on July 19th --

17        A.   On the 19th of July, I was not there in person.  And, yes, I am

18     Warrant Officer Second Class Rajko Banduka.

19        Q.   And we can see that this conversation is -- from the Mladic

20     perspective is very similar to the other conversation.  And, again, you

21     deny that this is you?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6851, under seal, Your Honours.

Page 27328

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why under seal?  Mr. Registrar, in the list of

 3     the Prosecution it is not listed as under seal.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the ...

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey could you clarify if this has to be

 7     under seal?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The boss tells me it doesn't.  The Croatians

 9     didn't have some of the problems that we had with security with the other

10     parties.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, there's no need to have it under seal.

12     Therefore admitted as a public exhibit.  Please proceed.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:

14        Q.   Now, we note from both those last two intercepts that -- one of

15     the main topics was the surrender, supposed surrender of Zepa.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we look at 65 ter 25242.

17        Q.   And as we're waiting for that, did Zepa really surrender on the

18     19th or was that sort of a false alarm?  From your own memory or

19     knowledge.

20        A.   No, I don't know anything about either the date or this report.

21        Q.   All right.  We see that this is a report from the

22     Republika Srpska SRNA Serbian press agency, and it's a public

23     announcement from the information service of the VRS, dated 19 July 1995,

24     2000 hours, similar time as their intercepts and talks about the

25     surrender of Zepa.

Page 27329

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer this into evidence.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6852, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Now, lastly, Mr. Banduka, you have said you were -- worked

 7     closely with General Mladic, you were aware of the communications

 8     systems.  You may be aware that Serbian authorities several years ago

 9     searched General Mladic's house and they came up with audiotapes of

10     conversations with General Mladic and others.  And we have some of those

11     audiotapes in this case, and on one of those audiotapes, a person,

12     appearing to the Prosecution, introduces himself as Banduka and talks to

13     someone named Nada.  I can -- I'll play that tape briefly for you, if

14     need be.

15             But my question is:  Were you -- tell us about your awareness of

16     Mladic taping his own conversations?  Did he have a system in place where

17     he taped his own conversations on a tape recorder, a dictaphone or some

18     other internal system as we've seen leaders do in the past, thinking of

19     Richard Nixon, not to get him involved.  But were you aware of that?

20        A.   No, I was not aware of that.  I had a dictaphone.  I could use it

21     to record conversations, but I never did for technical reasons.  Because

22     I would not have been able to present such conversations.  So I don't

23     remember any of those recorded conversations at all.

24        Q.   I didn't ask you about your memory of them.  Did they exist?  Did

25     Mladic do this?

Page 27330

 1        A.   No, he did not.

 2        Q.   Well, let's play this and that this will be the last --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's 65 ter 01715A and we should see the

 4     appropriate part of the transcript.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Your microphone is on.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  The way we've chosen

 8     to do it is to have the booth read the English while the transcript is

 9     being played, or while the tape is being played.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If everyone is prepared to do it in this way, that

11     it has been verified that what is heard is also what appears in the

12     transcript, because that's the reason why we usually go in two rounds,

13     the first one to verify the accuracy of the transcription and the second

14     round to have that translated.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I understand that and we can, of course, do

16     that twice and the -- of course, the Defence has been provided with this

17     material and --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Unless the Defence now already agrees that the

19     transcription is accurate.  Because, in that situation, we would -- well,

20     we still have a bit of a problem, because interpreters is not the same as

21     translators and they're supposed not to translate written text but to

22     interpret what they hear.

23             So therefore I think the most -- is it a very long conversation?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think the time we spent on how to deal with

Page 27331

 1     it takes even more time than it would do to play it twice.  It will be

 2     played twice.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's about 45 seconds.  The content is not what's

 4     the important part.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's proceed first round.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a digression, Your Honours.

 8     I did not notice that my learned friend Mr. McCloskey ever mentioned the

 9     date of this intercepted conversation.  It was not recorded on -- in the

10     transcript of today's hearing.  However, before the hearing today, I was

11     told when was that have -- supposed to happen.  And I'm saying this for

12     the benefit of the witness, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do we -- are you talking about the audio still

14     to be played or any of the intercepts we looked at before?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The one that we are supposed to

16     be listening to in a minute.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, what you intend to play is, according

18     to the Prosecution, dated when?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's not dated.  It's, as the court may recall --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It's not --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- we were provided a series of these audiotapes

22     that came from Mladic's house so it --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would not call it an intercept, though I can't

25     discount the possibility that Mladic has got intercepts.

Page 27332

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  A recording of a telephone conversation.  Let's

 2     listen to it the first time and we will not receive interpretation.  Only

 3     in the second round we will.

 4             Please proceed.

 5                           [Audiotape played]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Second round.

 7                           [Audiotape played]

 8             "Slobo:  Yes.

 9             "Rajko Banduka:  Banduka.  Hello, Slobo.

10             "Slobo:  Hi.

11             "Rajko Banduka:  Is Nada with you by any chance?

12             "Slobo:  Yes, she just got in.

13             "Rajko Banduka:  Well, let me just ask her something.

14             "Slobo:  Okay, hold on.  Nada.

15             "Nada:  Yes?  Hello?

16             "Rajko Banduka:  Hi, Nada.  Rajko here.

17             "Nada:  Hi.  Tell me?

18             "Rajko Banduka:  Has the General arrived?

19             "Nada:  No

20             "Rajko Banduka:  Not yet?

21             "Nada:  No.

22             "Rajko Banduka:  Okay, thanks.

23             "Nada:  Somebody was just on the way driving up towards you.

24             "Rajko Banduka:  What -- some?

25             "Nada:  A car was coming, so I was wondering whether it was him.

Page 27333

 1             "Rajko Banduka:  No, no, it wasn't.

 2             "Nada:  It wasn't.

 3             "Rajko Banduka:  Okay.

 4             "Nada:  Okay.

 5             "Rajko Banduka:  Take care.

 6             "Nada:  Okay, bye."

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 8        Q.   Sir, do you recognise your -- introducing yourself on that right

 9     at the beginning of that little audio?

10        A.   Let me tell you, I never listened to my own voice.  I wouldn't

11     mind this being me.  I wouldn't mind acknowledging the contents of this

12     conversation.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, whether you mind or not is not the issue.  The

14     issue is whether you recognise your voice.  You say you never listened to

15     your voice.  Do you recognise the conversation?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember this conversation

17     at all but ...

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Well, you know that --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness, I think I invited him to continue

22     his answer.  He said he didn't remember the conversation but ...

23             Would you tell us what said after that, or what you intended to

24     say after that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was going to say that this

Page 27334

 1     conversation was quite possible.  The date and the time are the things

 2     that I cannot define.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Let's see if you can help us.  You're on the phone.  You say:

 5     "Banduka."  And then Slobo says something and you say:  "Hello, Slobo."

 6     Slobo says:  "Hi."  You ask:  "Is Nada with you by any chance?"

 7             So who would be talking to when you talked to Slobo and then

 8     asked Slobo if Nada is around?

 9        A.   I can't tell you.  I don't remember who Slobo could have been.

10        Q.   And Nada.  Who's Nada?

11        A.   Nada should have been General Tolimir's wife.

12        Q.   And her last name is?

13        A.   Tolimir.

14        Q.   All right.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this into evidence, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6853, Your Honours.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And finally --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  One -- one second, please.  Admitted into evidence.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:

22        Q.   Finally, sir, now that you've had a chance to look at that,

23     you've suggested it's something that could have happened.  You've

24     identified Nada.  What is an audiotape like this doing in Mladic's house?

25     You, better than anyone else, were close to him, from your own statement,

Page 27335

 1     and would know, in my view.  Tell us.

 2        A.   I don't know.  I suppose it was his decision to take that tape

 3     with him.  I didn't have a say in it, nor did I know that he had it.

 4        Q.   Did you know he was doing it, he was taping?

 5        A.   No, I did not.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing further.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps one clarification in relation to the last

 8     question.

 9             Earlier you said he was not taping.  Now you say:  "I did not

10     know that he was taping."  Do we have to understand your testimony that

11     you were unaware of Mr. Mladic taping his own telephone conversations?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.  It is possible that

13     he always had this device with him, so he may have been taping other

14     conversations and exchanges at meetings or elsewhere.  I didn't know that

15     he was doing that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that clarifies your previous answer.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- could I ask just a clarification based on that

20     answer?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please, but shouldn't we then follow the usual

22     order, that is, any matter triggered by questions by the Bench, that

23     we'll deal with them last.

24             First -- yes, Judge Fluegge has a question as well.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One clarification to one answer you provided the

Page 27336

 1     Prosecution with.  On page 16, you were asked:

 2             "Did Mladic and his command staff have the ability to move into

 3     the bunker and carry out -- and carry on the operations centre and

 4     communications from the bunker?"

 5             Your answer was:

 6             "Yes, that was possible.  And that did happen during the bombing,

 7     that briefly we went to the command post."

 8             You were asked about the bunker.  And you answered he went to the

 9     command post.  And what about the question about the bunker?  Could you

10     answer that question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  You used the term

12     "bunker."  I don't know why I accepted the term for that facility.  It

13     was an underground facility as part of the Crna Rijeka.  It was behind

14     the villa on the outer side of the facility where we stayed.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the question was if Mr. Mladic had the

16     ability to move into the bunker during times when there were security

17     concern, such as bombing.  Was it used?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That was all.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I also have a few questions for you.

21             You said you followed the events in Srebrenica and Zepa when you

22     were in Bijeljina, and you followed it through the media.

23             Could you tell us what media you were able to receive and what

24     you learned from those media?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I watched TV.  At that time, only

Page 27337

 1     SRNA was accessible, the Serbian television, and I heard from the anchor

 2     about the event and I saw the images that were broadcast from the area.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that was the only channel you could

 4     receive on television, if I understand you well?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Radio and/or written media, was there any foreign

 7     media available for you?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  At that time, I could not

 9     listen to any broadcast in my apartment.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you understand the English language?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any questions, any further questions

13     in re-examination?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one to clarify a matter

15     with the witness.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Banduka, you have a transcript of this

18     conversation before you.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, it is

20     P6852, just for the record, Your Honours.

21        Q.   I'm asking you, Mr. Banduka, in this conversation --

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 6853, Your Honours, for the

23     record.

24        Q.   In this conversation, do you see a record of General Mladic as

25     one of the participants in this conversation?

Page 27338

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Banduka.  I have no further questions for you, and

 3     I thank you kindly on behalf of the Mladic Defence team.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, had you one question.  Perhaps you

 5     have more now.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 8        Q.   You mentioned to the President that Mr. Mladic carried a device

 9     with him.  Can you describe what that device was?

10        A.   Well, it's a small dictaphone.  The size is -- well, sort of

11     something that people would keep in their pockets.  Some people had them.

12        Q.   You picked up your glasses case.  Is it -- what size is it in

13     relation to your glasses case that we -- if you could show us, everybody,

14     so we can see.

15        A.   Roughly about this big.  Like the glasses case.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I think the record can reflect it's roughly

18     the size of a typical glass case.  I'm not great with centimetres.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Would the parties agree that usually - and I must

20     admit I've used it for many, many, many years - that a dictaphone often

21     is held in one hand and can be operated just by one hand.

22             I see Mr. Stojanovic is nodding yes.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we would agree with that, yes.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we will agree on

25     that, Your Honour.

Page 27339

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, that doesn't say anything about what --

 2     whether that was the same at the time, but at least that's a commonly

 3     used size dictaphone.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 5        Q.   And do you know, did that dictaphone use little tapes about the

 6     size of my creation here?  If you know.

 7        A.   Roughly, I think so.  I think they're that big or smaller.  I'm

 8     not sure.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  What Mr. McCloskey puts in the air is something he

10     fabricated with the size of approximately 3 to 4 centimetres by 1 and a

11     half to 2 centimetres.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Nothing further.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions?  It's

16     [overlapping speakers] -- it's not --

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was just asked by our client

18     to put one question and it is based on the question that was put by

19     Mr. McCloskey.  With your leave.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not the ordinary -- it's not the sequence

21     because it's the cross-examining party who puts the last questions to the

22     witness.  But let me just consult with my colleagues.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Very exceptionally -- and Mr. Mladic is hereby

25     informed that if there's any question he would like counsel to put to the

Page 27340

 1     witness, that he should intervene at the moment when the last round, that

 2     is, re-examination, for the -- for the Defence is about to be concluded,

 3     rather than at any later stage.  But exceptionally, Mr. Stojanovic, one

 4     question.  And please be aware that if it triggers any need for the

 5     Prosecution, that they could put any question in relation to the same

 6     subject as well.  And you know one question is not five but is one.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your

 9     understanding, Your Honours.

10                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Banduka, you were shown a photograph of the

12     facility in Crna Rijeka.  My question:  Can you tell the Court which part

13     of this facility was used by General Mladic for his own personal needs,

14     in order to stay in that building?

15        A.   The upper part, the upstairs.  General Mladic and I stayed there.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.  Typically your question

17     could have been put in re-examination ... but Mr. Mladic should remain

18     seated.

19             Mr. Mladic.  Mr. Mladic should remain seated.  You know the

20     rules, Mr. Mladic.

21             Mr. Banduka, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to thank

22     you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the

23     questions that were put to you, questions put by the parties, questions

24     put by the Bench.  I did understand that you have reasons to return as

25     quickly as possible.  I hope that we accommodated your travel programme,

Page 27341

 1     and I wish you a safe return home again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness --

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes -- no, not your next witness, but is the next --

 8     is the witness whose examination was interrupted ready to enter the

 9     courtroom?  And I see that the usher already went out so, most likely, he

10     will appear in a moment.

11             Where we were, as a matter of fact, is that the

12     examination-in-chief had been concluded and that Mr. Traldi was about to

13     start his cross-examination.

14             MR. TRALDI:  That's my recollection as well, Mr. President.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Rajak.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that

19     you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

20     beginning of your testimony last Thursday.  You'll now be cross-examined

21     by Mr. Traldi.  You find him to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for

22     the Prosecution.

23             Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           WITNESS:  MILENKO RAJAK [Resumed]

Page 27342

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 3        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 3 of your statement, now Exhibit D708, you say you

 6     were a member of the Territorial Defence of the Serb forces in the

 7     Rogatica municipality.  Now, this Rogatica Serb TO was first organised in

 8     March 1992; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And its commander was Rajko Kusic; correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Which company of the Territorial Defence were you in?

13        A.   2nd Company.

14        Q.   And where was that company based?

15        A.   It was stationed to the south of Rogatica in the Kozici local

16     commune.

17        Q.   As of that time, when it was still the Territorial Defence, who

18     was your commander in that company?

19        A.   Dragomir Paunovic.

20        Q.   And he remained your commander until you were injured in

21     July 1992; correct?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.

23        Q.   When you returned from your injuries in 1993 and joined the

24     military police, who was your commander at that time?

25        A.   Radenko Ilic was the name of the military police commander.

Page 27343

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3924.

 2        Q.   Now, this is a report by Mr. Kusic to the Drina Corps command

 3     dated 25 February 1993.  We see it's identified as coming from the

 4     command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade in Rogatica.  By

 5     February 1993, that what's the Rogatica Brigade was called; right?

 6        A.   The 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page two in both languages.

 8        Q.   We see him describe - and it's just a few lines down in each

 9     language - "a group of SDS activists who returned to Rogatica

10     municipality and volunteered to attend courses for anti-sabotage

11     activities in education centres in Pazaric, Pancevo, and Han Pijesak,

12     taught by patriotic JNA officers."

13             Mr. Kusic writes:

14             "That unit was the first organised formation of Serbian army in

15     Rogatica municipality, and it was deployed on plateau Borika from the

16     3rd of March, 1992."

17             What he's describing here is the beginning of the formation of

18     the Rogatica Serb TO; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   A few lines below that, we read:

21             "Unit from Borik, upon the invitation of the Serbian people from

22     Visegrad, took part in salvation of Serbian people by entering into

23     conflict with already established Ustasha formations."

24             I have two questions for you about this.  First, was it common in

25     the Rogatica Brigade to refer to non-Serbs as Ustashas?

Page 27344

 1        A.   Well, yes.

 2        Q.   Second, in paragraph 4 of your statement, you suggest that

 3     everyone in the Rogatica Serb TO was protecting their own home.  In fact,

 4     the Rogatica Serb TO was also carrying out operations in other

 5     municipalities, like Visegrad; right?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know about that because I was up there in the Kozic

 7     local commune, so we did not receive all this information.

 8        Q.   So you were not aware of what your commander, Mr. Kusic, is

 9     reporting to the Drina Corps here, that forces of the Rogatica Serb TO

10     fought in Visegrad?  You didn't know that?

11        A.   Yes, because we were ordinary soldiers.  We could not know about

12     every piece of information.

13        Q.   And you, in your years as part of the Rogatica Veterans'

14     Association, you've never heard that other fighters in the Serb TO and

15     later in the brigade fought in Visegrad?

16        A.   Yes.  Later on, I did find out.

17        Q.   So you now know that the Rogatica Serb TO was, in fact, also

18     carrying out operations in other municipalities, for instance, Visegrad;

19     right?

20        A.   Since partly we have a border with the municipality of Visegrad,

21     they went to defend our villages too.

22        Q.   When you say "our villages," you don't mean villages where people

23     in the brigade lived.  You mean Serb villages; right?

24        A.   There were people from the brigade that were from there too.  But

25     they're also Serb villages.

Page 27345

 1        Q.   Next, sir - and I'm done with this document - in paragraph 7 of

 2     your statement, you say that the Rogatica Brigade was formed in June of

 3     1992.

 4             Now, I'm going to try to be very quick about this.  On Thursday,

 5     at transcript page 27285, Mr. Lukic was summarising corrections to your

 6     statement and said about the Rogatica Brigade:

 7             "Until 22nd of May it was under TO, and after 22nd of May, 1992,

 8     it was army.  That's how the witness" - meaning you - "sees it ..."

 9             Is it correct that your understanding is that as of the

10     22nd of May, 1992, the Rogatica Serb TO was incorporated into the

11     Rogatica Brigade of the VRS?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, just one correction.  It was not

14     Mr. Lukic but Mr. Stojanovic.

15             MR. TRALDI:  I --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to correct myself.  I think I'm mistaken.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what happens if the examination of witnesses

18     is interrupted, and -- but it's clear by now.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now -- I want to turn now my microphone on.

21     And, after that, I want to turn to some of the corrections that you made

22     to your statement with Mr. Lukic on Thursday.

23             Now, you made changes to your statement regarding two facilities:

24     The Vlahovic school and Rasadnik.  Were you ever present at the Vlahovic

25     school?

Page 27346

 1        A.   I was never present there because physically we could not have

 2     been there since the entire town had been blocked by the Muslim forces,

 3     and we were to the south of the town of Rogatica, about 10 kilometres

 4     away.

 5        Q.   When you say "we," are you referring to your own company?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So you do not know, then, from your own experience who the guards

 8     were there, do you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   When I say "from your own experience," if you were never present

11     there, you couldn't have any personal experience of who the guards were,

12     could you?

13        A.   I could not see for myself who the guards were.

14        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 9 of your statement -- actually, before we

15     get to that.  Were you ever present at Rasadnik?

16        A.   No, I was never in Rasadnik either.  For the same reasons.

17        Q.   How did you come to learn that prisoners held in Rasadnik were

18     exchanged in Sarajevo?

19        A.   Well, after the situation calmed down, I found out from my fellow

20     combatants.

21        Q.   And you say you were never in Rasadnik either for the same

22     reasons.  In fact, when you returned in 1993 after your injuries, of

23     course, Rogatica town was no longer being blocked and you could have gone

24     to Rasadnik if you wanted to; right?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.  But I had no need to do that and I didn't go.

Page 27347

 1        Q.   You mention prisoners of war were detained there.  Do you agree

 2     with me that civilians were also detained there?

 3        A.   Just of Serb ethnicity.  There were soldiers and prisoners of

 4     war.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you were asking about Rasadnik, isn't

 6     it?  And, in paragraph 9, I read that -- oh, it has been changed.  Yes.

 7     Yes, apologies.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President I think we're fairly close to the

 9     break.  I'd suggest we take it now.  I think I have about 15 or 20 more

10     minutes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before we do that, Mr. Traldi, if we could just

12     clarify.  You asked the question about civilians being also at -- in this

13     detention place and the answer was:

14             "Just of Serb ethnicity.  There were soldiers and prisoners of

15     war."

16             I want to find out from the witness, when you say "just of Serb

17     ethnicity," are you referring to civilians?  Are you saying that the

18     civilians were only of Serb ethnicity?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, soldiers of Serb ethnicity.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you said just -- oh, you're talking about

21     soldiers.  Then could you answer the question:  Do you agree that

22     civilians were also kept in that place?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know about that.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             MR. TRALDI:  And I can continue, Your Honours, if you wish, but

Page 27348

 1     it is time for the break, I think.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, I just wanted to clarify that before.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, one question before we take the break.  When

 4     you say you were not aware of any civilians, does that mean that you

 5     didn't know about civilians being detained in Rasadnik and also that you

 6     are not aware of any civilians detained in Vlahovic school?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about Rasadnik.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And about Vlahovic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later.  That it was a collection

10     centre for all, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. TRALDI:  If I might ask one follow-up question,

13     Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   The Chamber has received evidence that the overwhelming majority

17     of the civilians at the Vlahovic school were Muslims.  Is that also

18     something you learned later?

19        A.   Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break.  And we'd like to see you

21     back in 20 minutes from now.  You may follow the usher.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter

24     past 12.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

Page 27349

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             Could we have 65 ter 31332.

 8        Q.   While it comes up, sir, you mention in your statement that

 9     Rasadnik prisoners were exchanged in Sarajevo.  Now, your commander,

10     Mr. Kusic, would approve at least some of those exchanges; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And here, we see a document emanating --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be something ...

14             MR. TRALDI:  Let me try again briefly.  It seems the problem has

15     been solved.

16        Q.   We see a document emanating from the 1st Podrinje Brigade command

17     dated the 29th of May, 1993.  This is an example of one such exchange

18     that Mr. Kusic is approving; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And is it your understanding that the purported reception centre

21     for Muslim residents in Rogatica mentioned in the document, is it your

22     understanding that that refers to Rasadnik?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document, 65 ter 31332.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 27350

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit P6854, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Now, I want to turn to the corrections to paragraph 10.  In your

 5     initial signed statement, you said:

 6             "The Crisis Staff was formed at the end of May, beginning of

 7     June, after the negotiations with the Muslims who had actual power

 8     failed.  Vlahovic and Rasadnik were outside its purview and under the

 9     control of the Rogatica Brigade."

10             Now, your evidence Thursday was that Vlahovic school was created

11     by the civilian authorities and Rasadnik was partially under the control

12     of the TO and military and partially under the control of the police; is

13     that right?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.

15        Q.   When you say the civilian authorities were responsible for the

16     Vlahovic school, which civilian authorities do you mean?

17        A.   The police.

18        Q.   Now, you say now that you don't know anything about the

19     competencies, composition or work of the Crisis Staff.  The Chamber has

20     received evidence that, in fact, it was formed well before the end of

21     May.  And that's, for instance, P3913 [Realtime transcript read in error

22     "P3193"].  You don't know when it was formed either; right?

23        A.   No, I don't know.  The information was not that accessible to us

24     for the reasons I already mentioned.  We were quite far from that part of

25     the town.

Page 27351

 1        Q.   How is it that you know that the civilian police, you now say,

 2     were responsible for the Vlahovic school?

 3        A.   Later, after 1993 when I was there, I learnt about that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you one question in between.

 5     You responded to a question put to you by Mr. Traldi that you do not know

 6     when the Crisis Staff was formed.  Nevertheless, in your statement, it

 7     reads:

 8             "The Crisis Staff was formed at the end of May, beginning of

 9     June ..."

10             Now, how can you say that if you tell us today that you do not

11     know when it was formed?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information arrived with some

13     delay.  So we did not know exactly when it was formed.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But in your statement, you say it was formed end of

15     May, beginning of June.  Whereas you now again confirm that you do not

16     know.  What makes you say it was formed then and now to say:  "Well, I

17     don't know"?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that, based on subsequent

19     information, we did not have the precise date of its formation.  But we

20     did know that it had been set up.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you then know that it was the end of May,

22     beginning of June?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information came, and I repeat, we

24     were far away.  We did not know about the events immediately.  But that

25     was more or less when I learnt, that's when I learnt.

Page 27352

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say "information came," it's -- what

 2     information?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the formation.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what then exactly did you learn about it?

 5     Who did it, where was it done?  Why late May, early June?  Why not early

 6     May?  What was it?  Or if you just don't know, if you say, "We just heard

 7     that it was formed," then tell us as well, or give us the precise

 8     detailed information you received.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard that it had been set

10     up.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  From whom did you hear that?  If you remember.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my superior commander, who was

13     up there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  And who was that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragomir Paunovic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have follow-up questions.

18             When did you get this information, that it had been formed?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In late May.  I'm not 100 per cent

20     sure.  More or less about that time.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Late May of which year?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you signed this statement on the 6th of June,

24     2014.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 27353

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You had this information from Mr. Paunovic

 2     already.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information refers to the year

 4     1992.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes.  But you gave this information in your

 6     statement on the 6th of June, 2014; is that correct?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And so when you made this statement, you knew

 9     that, according to Dragomir Paunovic, this had been formed.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But I spoke based on the

11     information that I had at the time, the contemporaneous information.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And as you sit here today, you testified that you

13     don't know when it was formed, or whether it was formed, which is what

14     Judge Orie was asking you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just told you that I learnt

16     only subsequently.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.  But all this you were asked

18     before you testified today, and today you have given two versions.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my statement.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Which one?  That you don't know or that Paunovic

21     told you it was formed?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he told me that the

23     Crisis Staff had been formed.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So when you said you don't know, you were not

25     correct.

Page 27354

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not asking you about the date.  When you said

 3     you didn't know when it was formed, you were not correct.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the information that

 5     I've shared with you is accurate.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You are not answering my question.  Okay.  I leave

 7     it at that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I apologise.  If you can direct us, Your Honour, when

10     this witness said today that Crisis Staff was not formed.  I don't

11     remember that portion.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Isn't this what Judge Orie was asking him just

13     now?

14             If you look at page 51, line 12, Judge Orie says:

15             "Witness, could I ask you one question in between."  I think he

16     meant one question.  "You responded to a question put to you by

17     Mr. Traldi that you do not know when the Crisis Staff was formed.

18     Nevertheless, in your statement it reads:  'The Crisis Staff was formed

19     in the -- at the end of May, beginning of June ...'"

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the critical --

21             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] -- is when --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The critical question was on line 6 [Overlapping

23     speakers] ...

24             JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] [Overlapping speakers]

25     ...

Page 27355

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Not about the formation, only the date.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Line 6.  Mr. Traldi asked on line 4 and 5 of

 3     page 51:

 4             "You don't know when it was formed either; right?"

 5             The answer was:

 6             "No, I don't know.  The information was not that accessible ..."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  There may be some issue about the when or the

 8     whether.  Let's carefully look at that.  And that is, I take it,

 9     Mr. Lukic, that you wanted to draw our attention to and that is well

10     understood.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Just on the same line -- line 4, rather, of page 51,

14     Mr. President, I've been recorded - perhaps I misspoke - as referring to

15     P3193, and should have referred to P3913.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby corrected.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Now, as to control over Rasadnik, the Chamber has received

20     evidence that beginning in late 1992, the commander there was a man named

21     Vinko Bojic, also known as Vili, and that he was a member of the

22     Rogatica Brigade.  That is correct, isn't it?

23        A.   Personally I didn't know the man.  However, I do believe that he

24     was a member of the Rogatica Brigade.

25        Q.   Now, the Chamber has also received evidence that Mr. Kusic

Page 27356

 1     reported a number of times to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command - P312,

 2     P459, P6803, for instance - on people being moved into the premises of

 3     the secondary school.  Were you aware that he was doing so?

 4        A.   No, I was not aware of that.

 5        Q.   When you made corrections to your statement regarding who had

 6     control over the Vlahovic school and over Rasadnik, were you aware that

 7     General Mladic was charged with crimes there?

 8        A.   I didn't know that.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And could the Prosecution please have P6804.

10        Q.   Now, sir, I'd asked earlier if you agreed with me that civilians

11     were held in the Rasadnik camp.  Now this is a document dated the

12     1st of February, 1993, and it's being forwarded by the Drina Corps

13     command to the 4th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.  It's referring to

14     prisoners of war in the Vili camp, Rogatica.

15             Now to confirm again, Vili was the name -- the nickname of the

16     Rasadnik camp commander, Vinko Bojic; right?

17        A.   Yes, that's what I heard.  That's correct.

18        Q.   I'd ask that you just look at this list for a moment, focussing

19     on the names and the years of birth, roughly 1 through 15 or so.  Can you

20     confirm orally by saying "yes" once you've had an opportunity to review

21     that information.

22        A.   None of the names rings any bells.

23        Q.   Based on your experience in Rogatica municipality, these are

24     Muslim names; right?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 27357

 1        Q.   And at number 4, we see Hanua Kustura.  That's a woman's name;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   We see that she was born in 1892.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Earlier, in reference to Rasadnik, you said it was soldiers and

 7     prisoners of war held there.  So my question is:  Were you aware that the

 8     prisoners of war held at Rasadnik included 100-year-old women?

 9        A.   I was not aware of that.  I am certain of that.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my examination.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

12             Any further questions, Mr. Lukic?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Just a few one -- but I don't think that I understood

14     well the last line of questions regarding villa so I might clarify it

15     with the witness.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] First of all, good afternoon yet again.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   Is the villa one and the same as Rasadnik, do you know that?  Is

20     there any other villa?  Are we talking about one and the same building?

21     I really don't know.

22        A.   No, no, the two are not the same.

23        Q.   So what is the villa?

24        A.   The villa is a catering facility.

25        Q.   How far is it from Rasadnik; do you know?

Page 27358

 1        A.   In the Rogatica municipality, there was just one, and it was some

 2     15 kilometres away.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  This puts the villa away then.

 4             And now just let's go back to today's record.  Page 44, line 10.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yes --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Mr. Lukic, you are talking about the villa.  Now

 8     I see in the original Vili between quotation marks.  And --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah.  It's grammar.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But the quotation marks stand for what?

11             MR. LUKIC:  I would say villa.  We change our words even under

12     the quotation marks.  There are different extensions.  And if you want --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's then ask the witness --

14             Are aware of any persons being detained in a villa where you said

15     there was a catering facility?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know anything at all about civilians being

18     detained anywhere in Rogatica?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not aware of that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   During that period of time, i.e., January and February 1993, did

23     you move around the area where the villa was located?

24        A.   No, I did not.

25        Q.   Do you know what was in the villa on the 1st February 1993?  Was

Page 27359

 1     it a restaurant or not?

 2        A.   It had been a restaurant, but by then, it was empty and

 3     abandoned.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Before that, I was going to ask you

 5     something that was recorded on page 44, line 10 earlier today.

 6             My learned friend asked you, and I'm going to read the question

 7     and answer in English and you will receive proper interpretation.  And

 8     then I'll have a question for you.

 9             I quote:

10             [In English] "I have two questions for -- about this.  First, was

11     it common in the Rogatica Brigade to refer to non-Serbs as Ustashas?

12             "A.  Well, yes."

13             [Interpretation] The question, therefore, is this:  Were all

14     Muslims and Croats referred to as Ustashas or fighters or juniors or

15     seniors or older people or younger people?  Who was referred to as

16     Ustasha?

17        A.   Those who had been known from the Second World War, those who

18     were the organiser of the events that took place in 1944.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P3942.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a new subject, or are we still on the

21     Ustasha issue?

22             MR. LUKIC:  The same issue.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I'll wait for a second.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   "The unit from Borik, at the invitation of the Serbian people

Page 27360

 1     from Visegrad, took part in the rescuing of the Serbian people by

 2     engaging against the already established Ustasha formations."

 3             That was read out to you.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, that's not the same document.  I don't know

 5     what I said.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I think if I might assist.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  It's P3924.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. Lukic did not require my assistance, it turned

 9     out, as usual.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, anyways.  I'm sorry, and we need page 2.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an analysis of combat readiness.  It was

12     drafted on the 25th of February, 1993.  When -- where -- and in that

13     document, the already established Ustasha formations are mentioned.

14             Who is that a reference to?

15        A.   Muslim forces.  The Green Berets.

16        Q.   The Prosecutor skipped something and I'd like to see it.  It says

17     here, and I'm going to read the entire sentence:

18             "At the same time, the somewhat well-organised Serbian units,

19     based on the TO principle, carried out training in order to prevent

20     sabotage activities which had already taken place against the Serbian

21     people in Bosnia."

22             Do you know whether there had been any attacks and sabotage

23     activities against the Serbian villages there in the months of March and

24     April 1992?

25        A.   The first casualties were recorded on the 6th of May.

Page 27361

 1        Q.   Very well.  Do you know anything about this group of 40 Serbian

 2     lads who were SDS activists?  They had volunteered to attend courses on

 3     anti-sabotage activities.

 4        A.   I was never in touch with them.

 5        Q.   Do you know what kind of training took place in Han Pijesak,

 6     Pazarici and --

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  At the time, were you able to follow any

 9     Muslim media; and do you know what they called the Serbs?

10        A.   They called us Chetniks.

11        Q.   Did you consider yourself to be a Chetnik?

12        A.   No, I did not.

13        Q.   Did you consider that to be praise or an insult?

14        A.   So we were Serb soldiers, soldiers of the Army of

15     Republika Srpska.  That is to say, that is our name, and then we

16     considered Chetniks to be an insult.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Rajak.  That is all we had for you.

18        A.   Thank you, too.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

20             Mr. Rajak, I have one or two questions.

21             You were asked whether, during January and February 1993, whether

22     you moved around in the area where the villa was located.  Your answer

23     was:  "No, I did not."

24             And then you were asked:

25             "Do you know what was in the villa on the 1st of February 1993?

Page 27362

 1     Was there -- was it a restaurant or not?"

 2             And then you said:

 3             "It had been a restaurant, but by then, it was empty and

 4     abandoned."

 5             How did you know that it was empty and abandoned when you never

 6     moved around in that period of time in the area where the villa was

 7     located?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't move around but

 9     because of the geographical position that it was in, I know that there

10     was no one there.  Or we assumed that there was no one there.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because we have seen a document which suggests

12     that there were a lot of people detained there, including elderly women.

13     So I'm just wondering why -- or how you can be so certain about the place

14     being abandoned.  Or is it that you say:  Well, it was just my assumption

15     that the place was abandoned and I do not know for sure.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the only one that was up

17     there in the municipality of Rogatica, I know that it had been abandoned.

18     If we're talking about the same thing.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, of course, I do not know.  But, again, a

20     minute ago, you said:  It was just my assumption that there was no one

21     there.  And now you say:  I know that it had been abandoned.  But do you

22     know whether anyone would have moved in again late January, early

23     February 1993?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no one.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And you consider this document which says there are

Page 27363

 1     many people detained there to be a fraud or ... what makes you so sure if

 2     you have not been there to say no one moved in, whereas there is a

 3     document, an official document, which gives a long list of people

 4     detained there?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Explanation.  Rasadnik is something

 6     different from villa.  Villa is totally different.  It's not the same

 7     facility.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the questions that were put to you about the

 9     villa, whether there was a restaurant, whether it had been abandoned, the

10     document which was shown to you was interpreted as dealing with the villa

11     as well.  I asked about that, whether Vili would mean villa.

12             Yes, Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Not by us, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I'm not -- no.  I know that.  That's -- but

15     that was ... so, still, the question is:  You followed more or less the

16     suggestion that the Vili camp was the villa.  And you said there was a

17     catering facility.  It had been abandoned.  And there was no one there,

18     although you have never been there.

19             I'm slightly confused by that evidence.  Unless you say:  What

20     was presented to me as the Vili camp could not be the villa I talked

21     about.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a villa that was abandoned.

23     As far as I understood the Prosecutor, this is the nickname of a

24     particular gentleman, Vili is his nickname.  It is not the facility

25     called villa.

Page 27364

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So your answers about what you know as the

 2     villa has got nothing to do with what you saw on this document which is

 3     about the Vili camp and which, indeed, was interpreted by the Prosecution

 4     in quite a different way from how the Defence interpreted it.  But ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The villa facility has nothing

 6     whatsoever to do with this other thing.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And that other thing referred to in the document as

 8     the Vili camp, does that ring a bell what that could be?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not Logor Vili.  It is

10     Rasadnik.  But, actually, the name Vinko Bojic, his nickname is Vili.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So Logor Vili, for you, is a reference to Rasadnik.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

14             Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:  It appears to me that Mr. Lukic might have some

16     arising out of the Chamber's and to preserve the order, I might defer to

17     him, if that suits.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that is the preferred order.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would just then ask for P6804 to

20     be brought on our screens.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not going to invite the witness to interpret

22     documents as you know, Mr. -- it's for the Chamber and for the parties to

23     do that --

24             MR. LUKIC:  I would just ask him to carefully read the first

25     sentence of the document.

Page 27365

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm quite willing to read it carefully.  But we're

 2     not going to ask the witness, a document which is unknown to him, to

 3     interpret that.  You may put questions about the document; that's fine.

 4     But we're not seeking the witness to do the job of the Chamber and the

 5     parties.

 6                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, I'm going to reading something out,

 8     the first sentence from the document that is before you on the screen.

 9     So it is a document of the Drina Corps command.  It was sent to the

10     command of the 4th PLPBR to PP Cerovic, and this is how the sentence

11     reads:

12             "Pursuant to your request, we hereby submit the list of prisoners

13     of war at the Vili camp, Rogatica."

14             So it is the Vili camp, Logor Vili.  Have you heard of a camp in

15     Rogatica called Vili or villa?

16        A.   I haven't heard.  Only Rasadnik.  And Mr. Bojic's nickname is

17     Vili.

18        Q.   This is a military document.  Did you have an opportunity to see

19     documents of the Drina Corps command frequently?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Was it customary in our part of the world for facilities and POW

22     camps to be named by people's nicknames or after person's nicknames?

23        A.   I did not have an opportunity to see something like that.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask one question for clarification.

25             What was Mr. Bojic's position in February 1993?

Page 27366

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he was a guard over

 2     there at Rasadnik.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A guard of what?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of Rasadnik.  The Rasadnik

 5     facility.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is the Rasadnik facility exactly?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where military prisoners were and

 8     soldiers of Republika Srpska.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And he was a guard there, in your opinion and

10     your recollection.  Was he the only guard or were there more guards, or

11     did he have a specific duty?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know about

13     that.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   I shall conclude by putting this question.  When answering

17     Judge Fluegge's question, you said that military prisoners were there and

18     soldiers of Republika Srpska.  When you say "soldiers of

19     Republika Srpska," in what status were they?

20        A.   Soldiers who did not carry out the military tasks that they were

21     given, so they were drunk, they abandoned the front line, and things like

22     that.

23        Q.   So they were arrested and detained?

24        A.   Yes, detained.

25        Q.   Except for these detainees, lest there be any confusion, were

Page 27367

 1     there other Serb soldiers there who were not detained and who were

 2     guarding all of these people?

 3        A.   I think so.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 6             Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Just briefly, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

10        Q.   As of the 1st of February, 1993, you were a member of the

11     military police in the Rogatica Brigade; right?

12        A.   Yes, right.

13        Q.   The villa and the Rasadnik camp are both within the area of

14     responsibility of the Rogatica Brigade; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   One of the things that military police have as part of their

17     responsibility is prisoners of war, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And just to confirm, you were not aware of any prisoners of war

20     ever being held in a building called the villa; right?

21        A.   Exactly.

22             MR. TRALDI:  That's all, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

24             Mr. Rajak, this concludes your testimony.  On behalf of the

25     Chamber, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for

Page 27368

 1     having answered all the questions, and for having had the patience this

 2     morning to come later.  And I'd also like to thank you for having

 3     answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by

 4     this Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock and I'm

 9     wondering what would be best.  Perhaps to take the break now and not to

10     start the testimony of the next witness for just ten or 15 minutes, but,

11     rather, to take the break now and then to --

12             MR. LUKIC:  Go till the end of the day.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know how much time you have reserved

14     for that witness, but ...

15             MR. LUKIC:  I asked for an extension of time.  Since we have

16     additional documents, I will not go anything through his statement, just

17     I would go in connection with his statement through some documents since

18     we have a lot of non-associated exhibits.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any problem as far as notice is concerned

20     in this respect.  Because if you say:  I'm going to ask the witness not

21     about his statement but about other matters, that may --

22             MR. LUKIC:  It is in connection with his statement, of course,

23     but it's not the documents from the statement but the documents marked as

24     non-associated exhibits.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 27369

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Last night, Mr. Lukic

 2     informed us that he had four more documents and wanted to change the

 3     estimate from 30 minutes to two hours, and we heard a little bit more

 4     information about this witness.  And the Prosecution is not objecting to

 5     that, though we'd obviously prefer that not happen, and I would ask that

 6     my estimate from two hours go up to three hours.  I hope I don't have to

 7     use that but given the late notice and I'm really not sure where

 8     Mr. Lukic is going on this -- but we do know this witness, he's testified

 9     many times, and we're ready to go.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Mr. Lukic, that is one and a half hour

11     from for four documents, I understand.  That's 22 and a half minutes a

12     document which is not --

13             MR. LUKIC:  I wish it's only four documents.  As Mr. McCloskey

14     said, I informed them about four new documents that are not on the list.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you know --

16             MR. LUKIC:  I --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I make two observations.  The first is that the last

18     time you asked for more time, that the way in which your

19     examination-in-chief developed was such that we thought that you should

20     stay within your original time-limits and you even stayed within it more

21     than expected, so that was moving in various directions rather quickly.

22     That's one.

23             Second, it seems there is a tendency for the Defence to --

24             MR. LUKIC:  It's only me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's only you.  You take the full blame for it.

Page 27370

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless it will have consequences for the total

 3     amount of time.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  We'll stick with our allocated amount of time,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Which means that you would have to skip witnesses at

 7     a certain stage or make them 92 bis or -- well, there are various options

 8     but --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Yes --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If you would give that thorough thought,

11     then -- and you say you want to conclude today, that's -- well, that's

12     not within two hours, but -- we'll take a break, and we'll resume at

13     1.30, and we'll closely monitor and follow the way in which the

14     examination-in-chief develops.

15                           --- Recess taken at 1.08 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

18     the courtroom.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Kralj.  Before you give

22     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text

23     is now handed out to you.  I'd like to invite you to make that solemn

24     declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 27371

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO KRALJ

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Kralj.

 5             Mr. Kralj, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find him

 6     to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kralj.

10        A.   Good day.

11        Q.   For the record, could you please state your name and surname,

12     slowly.

13        A.   I am Slavko Kralj.

14        Q.   Mr. Kralj, did you give a statement to the representatives of

15     General Mladic's Defence?

16        A.   I gave a statement to the representatives of General Mladic's

17     Defence.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have document 1D1644 in

19     e-court, please.

20        Q.   You see the document on the screen before you now.  Do you see a

21     signature on this page?

22        A.   I see the document, and I see the signature on this page in the

23     Serbian version.

24        Q.   Can you recognise the signature?

25        A.   That is my signature.

Page 27372

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now take a look at the last

 3     page, please, the last page of this document.

 4        Q.   Again, on this page, in the B/C/S version, can you recognise the

 5     signature?

 6        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kralj, the information that you provided in this written

 8     statement, are they correct and truthful?

 9        A.   All the information I provided in this statement is correct and

10     truthful, and I wouldn't change any of it.

11        Q.   Would you give the same answers if the same questions were put to

12     you today?

13        A.   If I were to be asked the same questions, I would give the same

14     answers.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to tender

17     Mr. Kralj's statement along with the associated exhibits.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, first, the statement would --

20     Mr. Registrar, would receive number?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D712, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D712 is admitted into evidence.

23             Mr. Lukic, we leave the associated exhibits, which are quite high

24     in number, for a while, because we would like to think about the

25     number --

Page 27373

 1             MR. LUKIC:  There are eight.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Three already have P numbers and eight associated

 4     exhibits are left for admission.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll deal with them separately, but I do

 6     agree with that you it's not -- it's not that high a number that -- to

 7     have great concerns about.  Yes.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I will read the statement summary of Mr. Kralj, and

10     then, as I informed Your Honours, I will have questions for this

11     witness --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

13             MR. LUKIC:  -- in regard of some additional documents we didn't

14     tender as associated exhibits.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17             Slavko Kralj was lieutenant-colonel in VRS and liaison officer

18     with UNPROFOR during relevant period.  Until autumn 1994, witness was in

19     1st Krajina Corps, and since then, he was in VRS Main Staff Department

20     for Relation with UNPROFOR.

21             Witness will testify that the 1st Krajina Corps received

22     information from VRS Main Staff on routes of UNPROFOR convoys and their

23     passage through check-points, which information was further sent to

24     subordinate units in order to facilitate uninterrupted passage of those

25     convoys.

Page 27374

 1             He will testify on often abuse of these convoys, on fuel

 2     smuggling, as well as of surveillance equipment.

 3             Witness was directly subordinated to Djurdjic Milos, who was

 4     chief of -- chief of his department and that his main task was to

 5     translate notifications received from UNPROFOR, which mostly were

 6     requests for passage of convoys.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this summary is so wrong that I

 8     have to object at this point.  He's never testified that his main task

 9     was mere translation.

10             MR. LUKIC:  It's not mere translation, main task.  He had

11     other --

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  His main tasks.  Yeah.  That's not what he's

13     testified to.  I've heard him testify many times.  And he also had

14     responsibility not for just UNPROFOR convoys --

15             MR. LUKIC:  Yes --

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- which you've so far only said.  So this is

17     beginning to mislead the public and the Court, if --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, please be very cautious there.  You may

19     remember that it was only last week that I had to remind that you parts

20     of your summary did not reflect anything that was in the statement.  So

21     if you want to postpone your summary any further so as to verify whether

22     it is an accurate summary of the statement, you have an opportunity to do

23     so.  If you'd continue, then I expect you to be very precise.  And,

24     again, it's in order to inform the public.  Therefore, you can make up

25     your mind --

Page 27375

 1             MR. LUKIC:  First of all, the summary is not too long.  I think

 2     we have the rule, how long the summary can be, and it doesn't -- hasn't

 3     reached that limit yet.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it is not about length.  It is about accuracy.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  That -- the first objection was it was too lengthy.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I haven't heard that, as a matter of fact.  You --

 7     that is a wrong summary of what Mr. McCloskey told us.  Perhaps "so

 8     wrong" you understood as "so long."

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, maybe.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well.  Wrong is worse than long.

11             MR. LUKIC:  I'm aware of that.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber has some concerns as

14     well.  You referred to other testimony.  Of course, the summary is just

15     about what is found in the statement, and, of course, the statement says

16     something about the main task being translating.  Now, whether you agree

17     with that, that's of course a matter for cross-examination to challenge

18     that and to test that evidence.  But in itself, summarising that the

19     witness in his statement says that it was his main task seems to be not

20     inaccurate.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I believe he said as he started out that was his

22     main task but that as his job became more involved, it was much more

23     involved, and he wouldn't be called here as a translator merely.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So this is misleading in my view.

Page 27376

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's -- at least the witness said somewhere

 2     it was his main task.  That's where you interrupted, I think, as a matter

 3     of fact.  We do not know what Mr. Lukic would then --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I was instructed to summarise -- by Your Honours the

 5     last time to summarise the statement, and if I want to go further, I have

 6     to go further viva voce with this witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  In paragraph 4 of his -- of his statement --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Paragraph 4, that is what I referred to as the --

10             MR. LUKIC:  It says that his main -- "my job was mainly to

11     translate English language materials," so that's why --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I --

13             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] -- put in my summary

14     statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what -- yes, apologies.  That was what I was

16     referring to.  And that was also where I said to Mr. McCloskey that

17     whatever the witness may have testified about in other cases, that

18     that's, of course, not part of your summary.  The summary is exclusively

19     about this statement.

20             Let's continue.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will continue with the --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  With the summary, yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  He will testify about his work as an interpreter with

24     the department in charge of maintaining relations with foreign military

25     missions and units at the VRS Main Staff from 1994 to the end of the war,

Page 27377

 1     about the procedure of announcing convoys at the level of the VRS

 2     Main Staff.  He will also comment on the documents related to these

 3     issues.

 4             And that would be the short statement summary.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  If you'd just give me one second,

 6     Mr. Lukic.  Yes, Mr. Lukic -- let me just have a look.  One second,

 7     please.

 8             Please proceed.  I was just checking all the redactions of the

 9     previous one because when you filed your 92 ter statement, then the

10     redacted portions in the original were not yet redacted in the English

11     translation, which, of course, was very confusing for us.  And I was just

12     checking that, finally, the translation, as it is uploaded, now reflects

13     the -- at least the redaction which I found at the end of the statement.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will start with the

16     documents.  So first I would call the document 1D2209.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, this is a document issued by the

18     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 1st of August, 1993.

19             Let me first ask you:  Where were you at the time?

20        A.   At that time, I was in the 1st Krajina Corps.  I was the liaison

21     officer in the Department for Civilian Affairs, in the corps.

22        Q.   What about your corps?  Did your corps receive this document?

23     And how can we tell from this document?

24        A.   Our corps received this document, indeed.  You can see that in

25     the heading where it says:  "To the command of the 1st KK," standing for

Page 27378

 1     Krajina Corps.

 2        Q.   In the first paragraph of this document, it says:

 3             "Following an agreement ... between the commanders of the

 4     conflicting parties in the territory of the former BH, dated the 30th of

 5     July, 1993, Article II, Rome, and the decision by the Republika Srpska

 6     government, I hereby issue the following order."

 7             This document lists what needs to be done in order for the convoy

 8     to go through.  Do you remember, at the time when you were a member of

 9     the 1st Krajina Corps, whether this order was carried out and whether its

10     stipulations were implemented?

11        A.   This document based on which the command of the 1st Krajina Corps

12     drafted its own document and implemented this order in practice, and this

13     order is relative to the announcement of the convoy carrying humanitarian

14     aid.  Information -- and this is information to the check-points, and it

15     also explains the procedure that needs to be complied with -- complied

16     with in the corps, at levels ranging from the corps command down to the

17     check-point which would be in charge of controlling the convoy.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Under 1, there is an announcement of the convoy and

19     it says that:

20             "Representatives of the humanitarian organisations shall give

21     timely notifications on convoys to the Ministry of Defence of the

22     Republika Srpska government."

23             Did you know at the time that convoys were to be announced and

24     were indeed announced through a civilian body; the Ministry of Defence,

25     that is?

Page 27379

 1        A.   There were earlier attempts to announce convoys directly to the

 2     Main Staff.  This order, however, regulates the matter in the following

 3     way.  Convoys had to be announced to the Ministry of Defence of the

 4     government of Republika Srpska.  And this was, indeed, implemented.  All

 5     those who addressed the staff would be referred to the Ministry of

 6     Defence of Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 4, it says that the control of convoys carrying

 8     humanitarian aid takes place only once as the convoys enter the territory

 9     of Republika Srpska.  What was the idea behind this?

10        A.   The idea behind this was to avoid unnecessary delays in the

11     passage of convoys because there were several check-points along the

12     convoy route.  Therefore, only at the entry into the territory of

13     Republika Srpska there's control at that check-point, and the other

14     check-points were not allowed to carry out their own controls.  That

15     resulted in the speed and enhanced security of the passage of those

16     convoys.  Also, the convoys were given escorts by the military police of

17     the Army of Republika Srpska as well as the civilian police.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up 5,

20     where it says what the officer in charge of a convoy has to have, or has

21     to submit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the fact that you are down again

23     means that there is no intervention?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I misunderstood.  I thought he was calling out a

25     new number but I see he's referring to the paragraph.

Page 27380

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are we on the right page in English, Mr. Lukic?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are.  It says crossed number 5, crossed out

 5     5, handwritten 4.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now are we in paragraph 5 as handwritten or as

 7     typewritten crossed out?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  5 typewritten crossed out.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So that's paragraph 4, yes.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] It says here the officer in charge of the convoy

12     has to have an approval by the Ministry of Defence, a list of convoy

13     personnel and their functions, a list of the convoy's escorts, a list of

14     motor vehicles, a declaration of the type and quantities of cargo, a list

15     of radio sets and all other technical devices mobile or integrated into

16     the vehicle.

17             Was this implemented in practice?  Was this, indeed, requested

18     from convoy officers?  And do you know if convoy officers were aware of

19     those obligations?

20        A.   This was the first thing that was requested from the convoy

21     officer.  First he had to have an approval from the Ministry of Defence

22     and then he had to have a list of personnel and everything else listed in

23     here which allowed us to carry out the necessary controls.  Without --

24     without those prerequisites, we could not carry out any controls, if

25     those documents were missing.

Page 27381

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, are you repeating, more or less, what was

 2     read to you as the content of paragraph 4.  But the question was whether

 3     this was implemented in practice.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this was implemented in

 5     practice.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The second part of this -- the third part of this

 7     composite question was:  Do you know whether convoy officers were aware

 8     of those obligations?  And I take it, Mr. Lukic, you refer to convoy

 9     officers from the -- accompanying the convoy and -- or did you refer to

10     the Republika Srpska officers?

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It says here the convoy officer of

12     the humanitarian organisation.  Perhaps it would be better for the

13     witness to say how he understands this wording.

14        Q.   Were those officers of the VRS --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We're not going to ask the witness how he should

16     interpret your question.  Apparently you wanted to refer to convoy

17     officers, that is Republika Srpska officers or --

18             MR. LUKIC:  No --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Humanitarian --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Were the convoy officers that is to be understood as

22     officers which were involved in this convoy from the humanitarian

23     organisations, were they aware of these rules?  Those who had to comply

24     with them.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We called them convoy leaders,

Page 27382

 1     officers in charge of convoys.  And they knew exactly what they had to

 2     have, what documents, and what to do, because they had been provided with

 3     that information from the Ministry of Defence.  In other words, every

 4     convoy leader knew exactly what documents he had to have in order to be

 5     able to drive or take the -- the route that he wanted to take with the

 6     convoy.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  Could I request that we be

 9     made clear in the questions that are asked whether or not this witness is

10     speaking as the liaison officer of the 1st Krajina Corps during the

11     time-period that he was the liaison officer of the 1st Krajina Corps, or

12     is he speaking from his perspective as the -- his position in the

13     Main Staff where he was part of the unit?  Because it's unclear from the

14     questions and it's certainly unclear from his answers, and it makes the

15     world of difference.  And this document is 1993.  And I think -- it's

16     clear from his summary that he wasn't a Main Staff officer at that point.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you always clearly make a

18     distinction between the witness talking about what he experienced as

19     liaison officer in the 1st Krajina Corps and what he experienced in his

20     position in the Main Staff.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I'll do my best, Your Honour, but I think that I

22     started my line of questions with asking this witness what was his

23     position at this period of time in 1993.  But I can clarify with him what

24     he thinks.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if it is --

Page 27383

 1             MR. LUKIC:  And as you know, all our discussions could be well

 2     understood by Mr. Kralj since he speaks English well.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although he has his earphones on and is most

 4     likely listening to the B/C/S version.  So whether he followed our

 5     discussions is uncertain yet.

 6             But certainly this document deals with the situation, 1st of

 7     August, 1993, and onwards.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, you heard what Mr. McCloskey is

11     concerned about.  You told us that this document was, indeed, sent to

12     your corps.  You also told us that it was implemented.  Were you

13     personally aware of the contents of this document in your position at the

14     1st Krajina Corps?

15        A.   Your Honours, I'm speaking about this document from my position

16     as the liaison officer.  Because the practical implementation of this

17     order with regard to the convoys went through me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

19             Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, we would tender this document into

21     evidence now.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we see whose name it came out in -- on to?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe I should do that as well.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the last page of this document.

Page 27384

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, you see that at the end of this

 2     document it says "Manojlo Milovanovic."  Was it customary for

 3     General Milovanovic to sign this type of documents?

 4        A.   Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic was a member of the Main Staff

 5     who most commonly sent out this type of documents and also signed them.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  You tendered it.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, no objections since we have now looked at the

 9     last page.

10             Mr. Registrar, the document would receive number?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D713, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D713 is admitted into evidence.  We're not going to

13     send it back for translation where the signature is in English

14     "Milanovic" and not "Milovanovic."  These are details, I would say.  And

15     the whole question about signatures, Mr. Lukic, this typically seems to

16     be a telex-type of -- a telex-communicated kind of order, which it's

17     difficult to sign them because telex machines do not accept signatures.

18             MR. LUKIC:  But still we can see some signature so that's why I

19     said "signed."  I don't know if [overlapping speakers] --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I have got no idea whose signatures these

21     are.  The witness has not told us.

22             MR. LUKIC:  I can ask him if you want.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you think the witness would know, then...

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Kralj, can you see the signature?  Are you familiar with

Page 27385

 1     General Milovanovic's signature?  Can you recognise the signature in this

 2     document?

 3        A.   It's hardly legible.  It's hard to tell that this is

 4     Milovanovic's signature.  And since the document was sent via an

 5     encrypted communication line, I really can't claim with certainty that

 6     this is his signature.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic, of course, it reminds me of the fact

 8     that the document bears a stamp of reception.  Now, of course, I cannot

 9     exclude anything, but whether General Milovanovic would have travelled to

10     the place where the document was received and then to sign it, that's --

11     well, everything is possible but it's not the most logical thing to

12     expect, I would say.  Let's leave it to that.  The document is admitted.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would call the next

15     document, 1D2210.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And for the previous document, Mr. Lukic, I take it

17     that you are aware that there are a lot of handwritten strike-throughs,

18     et cetera, so what to think about this document or not, we'd like to hear

19     from you at any point in time.

20             MR. LUKIC:  From the position of this witness, since that

21     document came from the Main Staff, I didn't want to enter into that

22     debate with him.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I'm not saying -- but, of course, the

24     Chamber, if interpreting such a document has a type-written text and has

25     a lot of handwritten changes to it and then, of course, might be

Page 27386

 1     interested to have an answer to the question who changed it, when, before

 2     it was sent, after it was sent, when it was received, what the meaning of

 3     those changes is, I just draw your attention to those questions that are

 4     still open.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I just -- I only can say

 7     that we found it as it is so ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not blaming you for having this version.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Paragraph 15 of your statement, Mr. Kralj, you

11     say there that check-points were open 24 hours a day during a certain

12     period of time.  We have a document before us dated the 30th of August,

13     1993.  We cannot see it on the screen right now, but at the bottom of the

14     page, we have the signature of General Manojlo Milovanovic.  Type-signed.

15     Right?  It's a telex.

16             Paragraph 1 says:

17             "Check-points must function continuously, 24 hours a day ..."

18             Were there any problems with this kind of work?

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Again, could we get a time-frame?

20             MR. LUKIC:  I think that I said it's the 30th of August, 1993,

21     when the documents -- document emanates from.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, do you mean were there any problems before or

23     were there any problems in the implementation of the -- the question is

24     not --

25             MR. LUKIC:  In the implementation of this 24-hour schedule.

Page 27387

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The question now is whether there are any

 2     problems in the implementation of the 24-hour around-the-clock manning of

 3     the check-points.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, may I say that on the

 5     basis of this order it was established that check-points could operate

 6     24 hours a day.  However, after a few days, it was ascertained that that

 7     was a major problem for the passage of convoys because they move at

 8     night.  And the following thing happened.  Some were asking to move

 9     specifically at night-time, so the idea was to have as many convoys pass

10     as possible.  Nevertheless, when these problems appeared, UNPROFOR and

11     other humanitarian organisation convoys, after a while, an order followed

12     to restore things to the way they were beforehand so that there would be

13     safety and security for all convoys.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you done with the document?  Do you want to

17     tendered it?  Because then we might --

18             MR. LUKIC:  I would like to tender this document, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, no objections.

20             Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D714, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D714 is admitted into evidence.

23             Mr. Kralj, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

24     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom.  But before you leave

25     this courtroom, I instruct you that you should not speak or communicate

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 1     in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, testimony given today

 2     or testimony still to be given, no communication whatsoever.  If this is

 3     clear to you, you may follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back

 4     tomorrow.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All is clear.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,

 8     Tuesday, the 28th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 9     courtroom, I.

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

12                           October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.