1 Monday, 27 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 I do understand that the Defence wishes to interrupt the
12 testimony of Mr. Rajak and to first start hearing Mr. Banduka's evidence.
13 And that meets no objections --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem, Mr. President. Good morning.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, could the next witness, which is Mr. Banduka,
16 be escorted into the courtroom.
17 Meanwhile I use the time to put on the record that the
18 Prosecution has advised the Chamber that it has received the B/C/S
19 translation for P06715, 65 ter 31183, MFI'd through witness
20 Milenko Indjic on the 3rd of September, 2014, and it was MFI'd pending
21 translation. This is -- I've not verified it but I rely on the
22 information provided by the Prosecution. We can see it at transcript
23 page 25188. The translation, as we understand, has been uploaded into
24 e-court under doc ID R014-9738-BCS. And if the Defence agrees, the
25 Prosecution requests that the court officer be instructed to attach the
1 translation and that the document be admitted.
2 P6715 is admitted into evidence. If there are any reasons to
3 revisit the issue of the translation, then the Chamber would like to hear
4 within the next 48 hours.
5 Yes, before I admit it, I first should have instructed
6 Mr. Registrar to attach the translation of which I gave the details a
7 second ago, to attach the translation to the original in e-court.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Banduka, I presume. Before you
10 give evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The
11 text is now handed out to you. May I invite you to make that
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: RAJKO BANDUKA
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Banduka, please be seated.
18 Mr. Banduka, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You
19 find him to your left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
20 Mr. Stojanovic, please proceed.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
22 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Banduka.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. First of all, for the record, tell us your name but slowly.
1 A. Rajko Banduka.
2 Q. Mr. Banduka, did you give a statement to the Mladic Defence team,
3 to me, to be more precise? You provided a written statement answering
4 the questions that were put to you?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to call up
7 65 ter 1D01745.
8 Q. Mr. Banduka, you have a text in front of you. It's in B/C/S.
9 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether the information in this
10 part of the text is correct and also whether the signature on this page
11 is your signature.
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] And now let's look at the last
14 page of the document, please.
15 Q. I assume that you have it before you. Again, the same question,
16 Mr. Banduka: Can you tell us whose signature this is and whether the
17 date was entered in your own hand?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Today when you entered the courtroom and when you
20 made the solemn declaration to tell the truth, would you answer the
21 questions that were put to you in the same way as is recorded in your
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Banduka.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe it is
1 the right moment to tender Mr. Rajko Banduka's statement. The 65 ter
2 number is 1D01745. I would like to tender this document into evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the Prosecution, but I don't know
4 whom to look at.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry, no objection.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D711, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D711 is admitted into evidence.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I
10 would like to read a summary of Mr. Rajko Banduka's statement.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Rajko Banduka is a
13 professional soldier, a career soldier. When the war started he was in
14 Sarajevo. He was the aide-de-camp of the command of the 2nd Military
15 District of the JNA. When the war broke out, he was arrested when a JNA
16 column was leaving Sarajevo. When he was released from prison, he was
17 moved to the Han Pijesak garrison. Over there, he became the
18 aide-de-camp of the commander of the Main Staff of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska. He has remained in that position until the end of the
21 He will testify about the setting up of the Main Staff of the
22 Army of Republika Srpska, about the capabilities of the Main Staff in
23 terms of personnel and equipment, on the communications means used by
24 General Mladic while he was at Crna Rijeka facility. He is -- he will
25 also testify the functioning and the organisation of work of the
1 Main Staff of Republika Srpska, as well as of his specific tasks and his
2 relationship with General Mladic.
3 He will describe in detail the communication system which was
4 housed in the facility where General Mladic stayed in Crna Rijeka. He
5 will also speak about the process of decision-making at the Main Staff of
6 the Army of Republika Srpska. He is familiar with the way of work and
7 the attitude of General Mladic towards subordinated officers. He
8 particularly emphasises his military and professional attitude towards
9 the civilian population. He says that there was no desire on his behalf
10 to retaliate against the enemy side even under the most difficult
11 circumstances. He also speaks about the attitude of General Mladic
12 towards paramilitary groups and his desire to extend assistance to
13 everybody irrespective of their ethnic affiliations. He also speaks
14 about his own tasks and duties at the moment when General Mladic was not
15 at the Crna Rijeka facility.
16 He also says that Mr. Mladic, as the commander of the Main Staff
17 of the VRS, spent a lot of his time on the front lines amongst his people
18 and soldiers. He also underscores all of his human and moral values and
19 character traits.
20 Your Honour, this was a short summary of this witness's
21 statement. With your leave, I would have a few questions for the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please put questions to the witness, Mr. Stojanovic,
24 preferably about facts.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I
1 would like to call up 711. D711, paragraph 2.
2 Q. In this paragraph, Mr. Banduka, you will see one part of your
3 statement. In paragraph 2, you say that you bear witness to an agreement
4 between the then-president, Alija Izetbegovic; General Milutin Kukanjac;
5 the UNPROFOR commander, General MacKenzie; the head of the European
6 Monitoring Mission, Colm Doyle; and others, regarding the peaceful
7 retreat and passage of a JNA column towards Lukavac.
8 Please explain to the Trial Chamber what you mean when you say
9 that you bore witness to those agreements? What did you personally see
10 and hear? Please stick to the facts.
11 A. Yes, I was physically present in the meeting room after
12 President Izetbegovic arrived from Lukavica. The room was
13 General Kukanjac's office, where Mr. Izetbegovic had a cup of coffee. He
14 was accompanied by Mr. Zlatko Lagumdzija and his daughter, and they were
15 joined with other highly ranked officials of the then-MUP of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. In that room there were also high-ranking officers
17 of the then-JNA, including the commander of the 2nd Military District.
18 There was a request made that the movement of the column should
19 be delayed by another 15 or 20 minutes, which would have allowed the
20 column to be properly formed, for all the stuff to be loaded onto the
21 vehicles. I was physically present there when that was happening. I saw
22 the sentiment of all the participants in that meeting. I realised that
23 things would go smoothly, in a dignified manner. I believe that that
24 would be the case.
25 After that coffee break, we went out to the courtyard of the
1 command of the 2nd Military District. President Izetbegovic and
2 General MacKenzie shook hands with the soldiers. They were observing
3 them packing and leaving, and then they decided to leave. That was the
4 first piece of information I had about the event.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just -- is there any dispute about the
6 agreement having been concluded and is there any issue taken by the
7 Prosecution about who were present when this agreement was signed or ...
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't -- I don't have a dispute at this point,
9 but I --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Whether something could arise in the future.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, you never know. Mr. Stojanovic, there
13 seems to be at this moment neither about the existence nor about -- at
14 this moment about the agreement dealing with matters as described.
15 That's the withdrawal. So, therefore, why then ask whether we -- the
16 participants had coffee or tea or water to drink. It's irrelevant and
17 there's no dispute.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you gain an impression about the fact whether
21 Alija Izetbegovic was in control of the situation, whether he could have
22 any influence on the departure of the column?
23 A. President Izetbegovic himself offered that he would come and that
24 he would escort the column from the command of the 2nd Military District
25 to Lukavica. It had been agreed that he would get into another vehicle
1 on the Skenderija bridge, that he would go to the Presidency building,
2 and then eventually he would meet General Kukanjac in Nedzarici after the
3 column arrived Lukavica. I saw concern on his face. I was not sure that
4 he was really in control of the whole situation, irrespective of the fact
5 that he was physically present and that he had made all the promises that
6 he did.
7 Q. Thank you. And now let's look at paragraph 5 in your statement.
8 In it you say that the Main Staff was set up and that personnel arrived
9 in the command, and then the system of communications was set up and
10 allowed you to have a direct protected connection with the corps
11 commanders and the commander of the air force. In view of your military
12 education, could you please tell the Court what kind of communication
13 system did you have at the facility where General Mladic stayed when he
14 was in Crna Rijeka?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we just could get a time-frame, it would take
17 some of the vagueness out of that question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you accommodate the concerns
19 expressed by -- yes, please.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Banduka, the suggestion was understandable and in view of
22 that, can you please explain: When you say when the Main Staff was set
23 up, when was that? Do you mean that this answer is relative to the first
24 year of the functioning of the Main Staff of the VRS?
25 A. The communication system that I had and that was exclusively used
1 by General Mladic for his command functions was an interphone. By
2 pressing on a button he could communicate directly with his subordinated
3 units, and those were the corps and the air force. That connection was
4 protected, it was encrypted, which means that one of the direct
5 participants was the commander of the Main Staff and the other
6 participant was the corps commander.
7 Besides those encrypted and protected connections there were
8 other means of communications but they were not protected and they were
9 provided from the local switchboard. There were numbers attached to
10 those lines and those lines could be used in communication with other
11 protagonists of the communication system. In addition to that, we also
12 had two civilian numbers, as it were, which were used in communication
13 with the telephone numbers abroad and other people, and so on and so
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, still the place - and that's what
16 you started asking about - and the time is still unclear.
17 What you just told us, was that the situation in Crna Rijeka?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Banduka, could you please answer.
21 A. Yes, I will answer. That facility was where I and General Mladic
22 stayed. It was separated from the Main Staff and the Main Staff was
23 where the interphone was and from there --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, before you tell us whether it was at the
25 corner or at a place or whatever, my question was: Was that in
1 Crna Rijeka?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Crna Rijeka. At the facility
3 where General Mladic stayed, where he was billeted.
4 JUDGE ORIE: From when to when was that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the first day of 1992, from
6 the 9th of May until the end of the war.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Those telephone lines that you spoke about and those
10 communications means that you referred to, could they be intercepted by
11 the enemy side from other territories and from other states?
12 A. Those direct lines with the commanders and the air force
13 commander could not be intercepted because they were encrypted, while the
14 civilian lines, the switchboard numbers and the participants who
15 communicated via those numbers, their conversations could be intercepted.
16 Q. Regular combat reports, interim combat reports that subordinated
17 units submitted to the Main Staff of the VRS, where did they end up?
18 Where did they arrive physically?
19 A. Every written piece of information was encrypted. Telegrams were
20 sent and arrived at the encryption station at the communications centre.
21 It was received by a person who processed or, rather, opened that
22 information, as we say. He would then pack it into an envelope and
23 handed it over to the operative centre of the Main Staff of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska.
25 Q. In view of the functions and you -- you had and duties you
1 performed throughout the war, could you tell us whether General Mladic
2 was ever in a situation or was he in a situation to receive those daily
3 combat reports from subordinated units every day, did they arrive at his
4 desk every day?
5 A. No. Things did not transpire that way. General Mladic and
6 myself did not receive that information. That information did not reach
7 me. That information ended up in the operative centre and at the staff
8 which was a kilometre to 2 kilometres away from us. The reason for that
9 was that General Mladic did not spend a lot of time in Crna Rijeka [as
10 interpreted]. He was in the units and in the field. As for the
11 information and its contents, if he was there, he would be conveyed that
12 information from the operative centre of the Main Staff or the Chief of
13 Staff himself.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I've just been told that on
16 page 10, line 11 -- no, page 11, line 3, I'm sorry, Your Honours, it says
17 "Crna Rijeka."
18 Q. Could you please explain this? In response to this question, did
19 you say that when General Mladic was not in Crna Rijeka or when he was
20 not with you?
21 A. You really have to clarify this for me. I don't know what you
22 actually mean.
23 Q. Among other things, when responding to my question, you said
24 where regular and interim combat reports arrived, those coming from
25 subordinate units. And then you went on and you said that at moments
1 when General Mladic was not, and so on and so forth. I have no other way
2 of asking you. When he was not where?
3 A. Regardless of whether he is with me in the room, the telegrams
4 did not end up with us. Rather, telegrams waited for him at the
5 operation centre in Crna Rijeka or with the Chief of Staff.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Banduka. At this point in time, we have no
7 further questions for you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
9 Before the Prosecution will cross-examine you, Judge Fluegge
10 first has a question for you, Witness.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just one additional question to paragraph 2 which
12 was dealt with by Mr. Stojanovic. You are talking about two different
13 matters in paragraph 2. First, your capture, your imprisonment by
14 Green Berets and Patriotic League. When have you been released from that
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of May, I was taken
17 prisoner during the notorious Dobrovoljacka Street affair and then --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please listen to my question. I wanted to know
19 when you were released.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 6th of May, 1992.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means you were in detention for three days.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The second matter you dealt with in paragraph 2
24 is the meeting of Mr. Izetbegovic and General MacKenzie. When did that
25 take place?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not speak about a meeting. I
2 spoke about the arrival of General MacKenzie and President
3 Alija Izetbegovic on the 3rd of May, with the motive as follows --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, I'm not asking you -- I'm not asking you
5 about any motive. You stated in your statement:
6 "I witnessed the agreements between the then-president,
7 Alija Izetbegovic, General Kukanjac, and to the UNPROFOR commander,
8 General MacKenzie, and others."
9 When was that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 3rd of May, around
11 1400 hours.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means on the same day when you were
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, are you ready to cross-examine the
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you'll now be cross-examined by
21 Mr. McCloskey. Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution. You find
22 him to your right.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
24 Q. Good morning, sir.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. What was your rank in 1992 and throughout the war?
2 A. I was a warrant officer.
3 Q. So that's under a lieutenant. It's not a commissioned officer.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And let's stay with your statement at D711.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have page 2 in the English.
7 Q. And in this -- looking at paragraph 4 - it's also page 2 in the
8 B/C/S - you describe that General Mladic -- that the conditions in which
9 he was throughout the war were very modest and that it was more important
10 for him that the people in the army had better conditions than him.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we now go to 65 ter 31502.
12 Q. What's this?
13 A. This is the facility where General Mladic and I were.
14 Q. This is located in Crna Rijeka at the command post?
15 A. Yes. It is about a kilometre and a half or two away from the
16 other buildings.
17 Q. And this is known as the Villa Javor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And this is right near the entrance to the underground bunker
20 that goes under the hill?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So this the modest accommodation you're speaking of in your
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Let's go to page 3 of your statement.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Both languages. That's the same D711. Same
2 thing. Yes.
3 Q. And in looking at paragraph 7, if we look at the bottom of
4 paragraph 7 you say:
5 "My conclusion is that he never reached decisions or wrote orders
6 on his own but with the help of and after a joint analysis with the staff
7 and the operations centre."
8 You've also said today that he communicated with his corps
9 commanders. So I take it his corps commanders were part of that joint
10 decision-making process?
11 A. You did not put a good question to me. Not from there. Not from
12 that place.
13 Q. Were his corps commanders someone that he listened to in making
14 his decisions, as far as you know, being the communication facilitator
15 that you have described?
16 A. Yes, he would hear what they had to say, but over the telephone,
17 conversations were very brief, without going into any kind of detail or
18 without issuing any kind of orders. For the most part, this was done in
20 Q. You knew those -- some of those conversations --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, you said, Witness:
22 "For the most part, this was done in writing."
23 What was done in writing for the most part?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Orders, directives -- actually,
25 orders and everything else that was derived from that. That was created
1 in the staff or the operations centre.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The issue discussed and asked about was the
3 input of the corps commanders, not about in what way decisions or orders
4 were communicated. That's why I was confused about "this was done in
6 Would you say that brief telephone conversations were the
7 exclusive source of input by the corps commanders, which assisted
8 General Mladic in preparing his decisions? Is that what you are telling
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it can be put that way, but
11 not entirely. Why am I saying that? Because corps commanders did not
12 present details over that telephone. It was just an opportunity to talk
13 and to give him brief answers to questions that he put. I could not
14 formulate that because I didn't even listen.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer the picture of the villa,
16 65 ter 31502, into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6848, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: P6848 is admitted.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY:
21 Q. Now, the operations centre you spoke of that was -- it was down
22 the hill from the villa some distance. What was the distance again?
23 A. As the crow flies, perhaps not even 6- to 800 metres, but the
24 road that led there is about 1.2 to 1.5 kilometres.
25 Q. Now, in times where there was security concerns, such as NATO
1 bombing or attacks from the enemy, did Mladic and his command staff have
2 the ability to move into the bunker and carry on the operations centre
3 and communications from the bunker?
4 A. Yes, that was possible. And that did happen during the bombing,
5 that briefly we went to that command post.
6 Q. And the area where the operations centre was down the hill, or a
7 distance that you've described, that was two narrow wooden buildings next
8 to each other where the offices of the staff and the assistant commanders
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. That's where the Chief of Staff and deputy commander,
12 General Milovanovic, had an office?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mladic also had an office there that he could use when he was in
15 the mood to leave the villa.
16 A. No, he did not have an office. But he used the office of the
17 Chief of Staff or the operations centre.
18 Q. And in 1992, who was the chief of operations and training that
19 you spoke of when you referred to the combat reports?
20 A. Well, I cannot remember the name right now, who it could have
21 been in 1992. If it wasn't General Miletic, then I don't know the name.
22 Q. In 1995, at least you know it was General Radoje Miletic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in your statement, on --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to page 4. B/C/S, both languages.
1 Q. You talk about getting seriously ill in May of 1995 and that you
2 were hospitalised in Belgrade until 26 May 1995. And that you were --
3 and I quote:
4 "I was able to observe all the events surrounding Srebrenica and
5 Zepa only on TV."
6 And where were you watching the Srebrenica and Zepa events on TV?
7 Where were you then?
8 A. I was in my apartment in Bijeljina.
9 Q. When did you go back and start working again for the VRS and
10 General Mladic?
11 A. Because of illness, I had been declared unfit for a longer period
12 of time. The hospital of the Main Staff granted me 90 days of
13 sick-leave. However, during the first half of August 1995, I came to
14 visit them at my own initiative, and that's how I stayed on.
15 Q. So did you start up work again the first half of August 1995?
16 A. Approximately.
17 Q. It could have been the first week of August 1995, couldn't it
18 have been?
19 A. I do not remember exactly. I don't remember the date. I was not
20 fit to work, but I was physically present, probably.
21 Q. Did you -- had you come down with hemorrhagic fever?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And one of the symptoms of that is the difficulty in urinating?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 65 ter 31493.
1 Q. As you've told us, you knew that you were being listened to by
2 the enemies. You haven't testified here before, have you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were you told or were you aware that the Prosecution had many
5 intercepts of -- from the Muslims and the Croatians before testifying?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it seems me that
8 perhaps this document should not be broadcast to the public in view of
9 our practice to date.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for that reminder.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not to be shown to the public. And to the
12 extent it has been done already, to be redacted. It has not been done.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
15 And we can see that this is from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
16 the 2nd Corps command. It's dated the 3rd of August, 1995. And let's go
17 to the next page in both languages. It's page 2 in the B/C/S; 3 in the
19 Q. Now, we could see from the initial page that this was a
20 conversation between a Dr. Zale and a Rajko Banduka. Did you know a
21 Dr. Zale?
22 A. Dr. Zale, no; but Dr. Zdrale, yes.
23 Q. Thank you. For that correction of my bad pronunciation and the
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to the next page in the English.
1 Q. And you can see, as you look at this, that the doctor is just
2 calling to ask you about your health and you say that you had hemorrhagic
3 fever. And the doctor asks if you were blocked from urinating, and you
4 said yes.
5 And we see down near the bottom of it that when the doctor asks
6 you: "Good. Any aftermaths?" And you say: "So far no. The medical
7 board gave me another three months and I am back to work now. I feel all
8 right most of the time."
9 So is this a real conversation, in your view?
10 A. Most probably, yes.
11 Q. So does this help refresh your recollection you were actually
12 back at work at least on the 3rd of August, 1995?
13 A. I've already said that physically I was probably there and that I
14 probably spoke to friends on the phone. But that I was completely
15 capable of working, no.
16 Q. Well, you told this doctor you were back at work. Were you not
17 being honest with him?
18 A. Well, I don't know what else I could have answered. As soon as
19 he heard my voice, I said to him that I was back at work.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd offer this 65 ter 31493 into evidence.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6849, under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence, under seal.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY:
1 Q. And, Mr. Banduka, as I've read from your statement in
2 paragraph 14, you state and you've clarified here that you were not in
3 Crna Rijeka during Zepa or Srebrenica. You were in Bijeljina. It's the
4 Prosecution's position, sir, that during the Zepa operation, which was in
5 July, the period of July 13th through the 19th, when the population was
6 bust out on 25th and 26th and the fighting continued beyond that, that
7 you were as early as 19 July working at your post in Crna Rijeka. And I
8 have some intercepts to show you, so I want you to think very carefully
9 before asking -- before answering my question.
10 Now that you think about it, sir, were you not, in fact, working
11 during the Zepa operation in Crna Rijeka for your commander?
12 A. No. I state with full responsibility that I was not.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- were you in Crna Rijeka at all, working or
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was not in Crna Rijeka
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. You said that you state with follow responsibility. Is that
20 something -- is that a statement that you received in some sort of
21 training with the JNA? I've just heard this repeatedly in this courtroom
22 and I'm just wondering is this something that is part of the training?
23 A. I don't understand that question. I don't understand what you're
24 asking me. It's a normal word.
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 27547.
2 Q. And, sir, sometimes when the Muslim police or army were
3 intercepting, they would summarise intercepts, and I'm about to show you
4 a summary of an intercept that is dated, as you can see in the Serbian,
5 22 July 1995.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Any need to have it under seal, Mr. McCloskey?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, there is because I see at the bottom there
8 is -- so we should -- it not -- not broadcast it. Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 And if we could have the English for the -- for the Court,
12 THE REGISTRAR: I'm afraid, Mr. McCloskey, the English has not
13 been attached as yet.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Ah. We will endeavour to attach it. But in the
15 meantime, I think we can all see that this is dated 22 July. And the
16 first paragraph talks about the -- that they registered three calls from
17 General Gobillard --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The English is on the screen as well now.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
20 Q. And who was looking for Mladic, and Mladic was in the field and
21 would be back.
22 Then the next paragraph says:
23 "We registered quite a few calls where members of the aggressing
24 army were looking for Mladic. While talking to them, Rajko Banduka, an
25 officer in the VRS Main Staff, said that Mladic was away and that he was
1 doing his job which was going slowly, but, still, it's progressing and it
2 would soon be done."
3 And the intercept folks said that you meant Zepa.
4 Does this help -- help you, were you fielding calls about
5 General Mladic on this date, 22 July?
6 A. No, I was not fielding calls and I simply cannot link myself to
7 this statement and this intercept. Otherwise, if you wish, I can provide
8 a further explanation. All of these people who could listen to that
9 phone, they identified the phone with me, but I was not there physically.
10 So this is just a pure formality, that everything that happened on that
11 frequency and that was intercepted was identified with me. I would be
12 replaced by the courier, by the operator there, and so on.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I offer this into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6850, under seal, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P6850 is admitted, under seal.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I believe it's break time.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's time for a break. However, I would have
19 one very small question.
20 You said that you were replaced by the courier, operator there,
21 and so on. Would that mean that if they received a call that they would
22 say, "This is Banduka speaking"?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they wouldn't say that. But
24 all the participants who call often would think that it was I who was
1 JUDGE ORIE: How did they introduce themselves, if not by, "This
2 is Banduka speaking"? Would they do it by their own names or by their
3 function or by their location? What would they do which makes you
4 believe that everyone would think it was Banduka speaking?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, usually, and that is according
6 to the rules actually, that names and surnames are not mentioned during
7 our telephone conversations. Rather, it is a number or the code for the
8 participant in the conversation. Whereas these people who knew me
9 probably thought that I was the only one who was there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 We'll take a break. Could you please follow the usher. We'd
12 like to see you back in 20 minutes.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, in terms of time, are we on schedule?
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's taken a little bit longer and given some of
16 his answers, I probably I'm -- Ms. Stewart tells me I have five more
17 minutes. I would probably need an additional five or ten after that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then that stays within acceptable limits.
19 We take a break and we resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [The witness takes the stand]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Mr. Banduka, on the same subject I want to show you an intercept,
2 it's P1384. And this is from the CSB or state security of Tuzla, Bosnian
3 MUP, as you know. And this is dated the 19th of July, 1995. And we have
4 heard evidence in this Court that sometimes the intercept operators were
5 only able to hear one side of a conversation, and that's the case in this
6 particular intercept. You can see that the CSB has described a telephone
7 operator as Banduka saying:
8 "That number isn't operational so I had to reach you like, this,
9 contact me to the boss's house. Come on. Yes, yes."
10 Then we look at the rest of it, and it's General --
11 JUDGE ORIE: You're recording as quoting "contact" whereas it
12 reads "connect."
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you for that fixing.
14 Q. And if we look at the rest of it, we just hear General Mladic's
15 side of the conversation, ending with: "Zepa has surrendered."
16 Now when you contact Mladic to someone, do you stay on the line
17 and listen in?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So were you working on the 19th of July when this intercept lists
20 a person named Banduka as taking part?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, where does it say so exactly?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: In the second paragraph, it's the telephone
25 operator where it says:
1 "Banduka, that number isn't operational so I had to reach you
2 like this. Connect me to the boss's house."
3 This is the --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, due does that mean that Banduka participated in
5 that conversation or that the usual avenue, that is, through Banduka, was
6 not operational at that point in time and that therefore they had to
7 reach Mladic by other means.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: It wouldn't be fair to say he participated in the
9 conversation. He participated in the initialisation of the conversation
10 would be clearer.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, even that, I don't know whether I could repeat
12 that for you reading this, Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that's the -- the position of the
14 Prosecution --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- is that --
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine but --
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- this is him taking the call and getting the
19 phone to General Mladic, which is what his job was apparently.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether the -- what this
21 paragraph means, as a matter of fact, and let's leave it to that at this
22 moment. Whether it means that the connection was established through
23 Banduka or whether the connection was not established through Banduka, I
24 think both interpretations ...
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, of course, it's up for the
2 Trial Chamber to evaluate this. I did want to give the witness the view
3 of the Prosecution and to the Chamber so you knew where I was going from.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you presented it as -- as reality, where you
5 didn't said [sic]: The Prosecution understands this as being this and
6 this and this. But let's -- let's move on. The matter appears to be at
7 least that there is an issue which may need further discussion, that has
8 been established.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, I think there's a difference in
10 the B/C/S and in the English version insofar as after the name Banduka in
11 the English version, there's a comma but not in the original B/C/S.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. That's an --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps that's a difference --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- important --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- to understand the document.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Thank you. Thank you very much for
17 that. And --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- the witness said that -- I think he has
19 answered the question or hasn't he? Let me just have a look. Yes, the
20 witness has answered the question, that he was not working on that day.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. And, Mr. Banduka, this Chamber has also heard evidence that the
25 Croatian government was also intercepting your VRS and RS transmissions,
1 and in that regard, I want to show you another intercept, which is
2 65 ter 22185. And this also should be noted as occurring on the
3 19th of July. This one at 2059 hours. The last one we saw was noted by
4 Muslim state security as 2100 hours. And we'll see that when it comes
6 And in this conversation, it appears the Croats were able to get
7 a bit more of the conversation in the opinion of the Prosecution.
8 So please take a look at this. It also identifies this as a
9 transcript between General Mladic, first on the telephone is his
10 secretary, Warrant Officer Second Class Rajko Banduka. You've told us
11 you were a warrant officer. Did the Croatians get your class correct?
12 A. It says "Warrant Officer Second Class Rajko Banduka," and my
13 answer is the same as to the previous question. I was not there. I was
14 not the one who established that communication.
15 Q. My question was, sir, very simple: Were you a warrant officer
16 second class on July 19th --
17 A. On the 19th of July, I was not there in person. And, yes, I am
18 Warrant Officer Second Class Rajko Banduka.
19 Q. And we can see that this conversation is -- from the Mladic
20 perspective is very similar to the other conversation. And, again, you
21 deny that this is you?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6851, under seal, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why under seal? Mr. Registrar, in the list of
3 the Prosecution it is not listed as under seal.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the ...
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey could you clarify if this has to be
7 under seal?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: The boss tells me it doesn't. The Croatians
9 didn't have some of the problems that we had with security with the other
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, there's no need to have it under seal.
12 Therefore admitted as a public exhibit. Please proceed.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Now, we note from both those last two intercepts that -- one of
15 the main topics was the surrender, supposed surrender of Zepa.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we look at 65 ter 25242.
17 Q. And as we're waiting for that, did Zepa really surrender on the
18 19th or was that sort of a false alarm? From your own memory or
20 A. No, I don't know anything about either the date or this report.
21 Q. All right. We see that this is a report from the
22 Republika Srpska SRNA Serbian press agency, and it's a public
23 announcement from the information service of the VRS, dated 19 July 1995,
24 2000 hours, similar time as their intercepts and talks about the
25 surrender of Zepa.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would offer this into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6852, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY:
6 Q. Now, lastly, Mr. Banduka, you have said you were -- worked
7 closely with General Mladic, you were aware of the communications
8 systems. You may be aware that Serbian authorities several years ago
9 searched General Mladic's house and they came up with audiotapes of
10 conversations with General Mladic and others. And we have some of those
11 audiotapes in this case, and on one of those audiotapes, a person,
12 appearing to the Prosecution, introduces himself as Banduka and talks to
13 someone named Nada. I can -- I'll play that tape briefly for you, if
14 need be.
15 But my question is: Were you -- tell us about your awareness of
16 Mladic taping his own conversations? Did he have a system in place where
17 he taped his own conversations on a tape recorder, a dictaphone or some
18 other internal system as we've seen leaders do in the past, thinking of
19 Richard Nixon, not to get him involved. But were you aware of that?
20 A. No, I was not aware of that. I had a dictaphone. I could use it
21 to record conversations, but I never did for technical reasons. Because
22 I would not have been able to present such conversations. So I don't
23 remember any of those recorded conversations at all.
24 Q. I didn't ask you about your memory of them. Did they exist? Did
25 Mladic do this?
1 A. No, he did not.
2 Q. Well, let's play this and that this will be the last --
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 65 ter 01715A and we should see the
4 appropriate part of the transcript.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Your microphone is on.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. The way we've chosen
8 to do it is to have the booth read the English while the transcript is
9 being played, or while the tape is being played.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If everyone is prepared to do it in this way, that
11 it has been verified that what is heard is also what appears in the
12 transcript, because that's the reason why we usually go in two rounds,
13 the first one to verify the accuracy of the transcription and the second
14 round to have that translated.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I understand that and we can, of course, do
16 that twice and the -- of course, the Defence has been provided with this
17 material and --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Unless the Defence now already agrees that the
19 transcription is accurate. Because, in that situation, we would -- well,
20 we still have a bit of a problem, because interpreters is not the same as
21 translators and they're supposed not to translate written text but to
22 interpret what they hear.
23 So therefore I think the most -- is it a very long conversation?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think the time we spent on how to deal with
1 it takes even more time than it would do to play it twice. It will be
2 played twice.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's about 45 seconds. The content is not what's
4 the important part.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's proceed first round.
6 Mr. Stojanovic.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a digression, Your Honours.
8 I did not notice that my learned friend Mr. McCloskey ever mentioned the
9 date of this intercepted conversation. It was not recorded on -- in the
10 transcript of today's hearing. However, before the hearing today, I was
11 told when was that have -- supposed to happen. And I'm saying this for
12 the benefit of the witness, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we -- are you talking about the audio still
14 to be played or any of the intercepts we looked at before?
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The one that we are supposed to
16 be listening to in a minute.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, what you intend to play is, according
18 to the Prosecution, dated when?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's not dated. It's, as the court may recall --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's not --
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- we were provided a series of these audiotapes
22 that came from Mladic's house so it --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would not call it an intercept, though I can't
25 discount the possibility that Mladic has got intercepts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: A recording of a telephone conversation. Let's
2 listen to it the first time and we will not receive interpretation. Only
3 in the second round we will.
4 Please proceed.
5 [Audiotape played]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Second round.
7 [Audiotape played]
8 "Slobo: Yes.
9 "Rajko Banduka: Banduka. Hello, Slobo.
10 "Slobo: Hi.
11 "Rajko Banduka: Is Nada with you by any chance?
12 "Slobo: Yes, she just got in.
13 "Rajko Banduka: Well, let me just ask her something.
14 "Slobo: Okay, hold on. Nada.
15 "Nada: Yes? Hello?
16 "Rajko Banduka: Hi, Nada. Rajko here.
17 "Nada: Hi. Tell me?
18 "Rajko Banduka: Has the General arrived?
19 "Nada: No
20 "Rajko Banduka: Not yet?
21 "Nada: No.
22 "Rajko Banduka: Okay, thanks.
23 "Nada: Somebody was just on the way driving up towards you.
24 "Rajko Banduka: What -- some?
25 "Nada: A car was coming, so I was wondering whether it was him.
1 "Rajko Banduka: No, no, it wasn't.
2 "Nada: It wasn't.
3 "Rajko Banduka: Okay.
4 "Nada: Okay.
5 "Rajko Banduka: Take care.
6 "Nada: Okay, bye."
7 MR. McCLOSKEY:
8 Q. Sir, do you recognise your -- introducing yourself on that right
9 at the beginning of that little audio?
10 A. Let me tell you, I never listened to my own voice. I wouldn't
11 mind this being me. I wouldn't mind acknowledging the contents of this
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, whether you mind or not is not the issue. The
14 issue is whether you recognise your voice. You say you never listened to
15 your voice. Do you recognise the conversation?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember this conversation
17 at all but ...
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Well, you know that --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness, I think I invited him to continue
22 his answer. He said he didn't remember the conversation but ...
23 Would you tell us what said after that, or what you intended to
24 say after that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was going to say that this
1 conversation was quite possible. The date and the time are the things
2 that I cannot define.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Let's see if you can help us. You're on the phone. You say:
5 "Banduka." And then Slobo says something and you say: "Hello, Slobo."
6 Slobo says: "Hi." You ask: "Is Nada with you by any chance?"
7 So who would be talking to when you talked to Slobo and then
8 asked Slobo if Nada is around?
9 A. I can't tell you. I don't remember who Slobo could have been.
10 Q. And Nada. Who's Nada?
11 A. Nada should have been General Tolimir's wife.
12 Q. And her last name is?
13 A. Tolimir.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this into evidence, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6853, Your Honours.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And finally --
19 JUDGE ORIE: One -- one second, please. Admitted into evidence.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. Finally, sir, now that you've had a chance to look at that,
23 you've suggested it's something that could have happened. You've
24 identified Nada. What is an audiotape like this doing in Mladic's house?
25 You, better than anyone else, were close to him, from your own statement,
1 and would know, in my view. Tell us.
2 A. I don't know. I suppose it was his decision to take that tape
3 with him. I didn't have a say in it, nor did I know that he had it.
4 Q. Did you know he was doing it, he was taping?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps one clarification in relation to the last
9 Earlier you said he was not taping. Now you say: "I did not
10 know that he was taping." Do we have to understand your testimony that
11 you were unaware of Mr. Mladic taping his own telephone conversations?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know. It is possible that
13 he always had this device with him, so he may have been taping other
14 conversations and exchanges at meetings or elsewhere. I didn't know that
15 he was doing that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that clarifies your previous answer.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- could I ask just a clarification based on that
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, but shouldn't we then follow the usual
22 order, that is, any matter triggered by questions by the Bench, that
23 we'll deal with them last.
24 First -- yes, Judge Fluegge has a question as well.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One clarification to one answer you provided the
1 Prosecution with. On page 16, you were asked:
2 "Did Mladic and his command staff have the ability to move into
3 the bunker and carry out -- and carry on the operations centre and
4 communications from the bunker?"
5 Your answer was:
6 "Yes, that was possible. And that did happen during the bombing,
7 that briefly we went to the command post."
8 You were asked about the bunker. And you answered he went to the
9 command post. And what about the question about the bunker? Could you
10 answer that question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. You used the term
12 "bunker." I don't know why I accepted the term for that facility. It
13 was an underground facility as part of the Crna Rijeka. It was behind
14 the villa on the outer side of the facility where we stayed.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the question was if Mr. Mladic had the
16 ability to move into the bunker during times when there were security
17 concern, such as bombing. Was it used?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That was all.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I also have a few questions for you.
21 You said you followed the events in Srebrenica and Zepa when you
22 were in Bijeljina, and you followed it through the media.
23 Could you tell us what media you were able to receive and what
24 you learned from those media?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I watched TV. At that time, only
1 SRNA was accessible, the Serbian television, and I heard from the anchor
2 about the event and I saw the images that were broadcast from the area.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was the only channel you could
4 receive on television, if I understand you well?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Radio and/or written media, was there any foreign
7 media available for you?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. At that time, I could not
9 listen to any broadcast in my apartment.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Do you understand the English language?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, any questions, any further questions
13 in re-examination?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one to clarify a matter
15 with the witness.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Banduka, you have a transcript of this
18 conversation before you.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I'm not mistaken, it is
20 P6852, just for the record, Your Honours.
21 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Banduka, in this conversation --
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 6853, Your Honours, for the
24 Q. In this conversation, do you see a record of General Mladic as
25 one of the participants in this conversation?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Banduka. I have no further questions for you, and
3 I thank you kindly on behalf of the Mladic Defence team.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, had you one question. Perhaps you
5 have more now.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Further Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
8 Q. You mentioned to the President that Mr. Mladic carried a device
9 with him. Can you describe what that device was?
10 A. Well, it's a small dictaphone. The size is -- well, sort of
11 something that people would keep in their pockets. Some people had them.
12 Q. You picked up your glasses case. Is it -- what size is it in
13 relation to your glasses case that we -- if you could show us, everybody,
14 so we can see.
15 A. Roughly about this big. Like the glasses case.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: So I think the record can reflect it's roughly
18 the size of a typical glass case. I'm not great with centimetres.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would the parties agree that usually - and I must
20 admit I've used it for many, many, many years - that a dictaphone often
21 is held in one hand and can be operated just by one hand.
22 I see Mr. Stojanovic is nodding yes.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we would agree with that, yes.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we will agree on
25 that, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, that doesn't say anything about what --
2 whether that was the same at the time, but at least that's a commonly
3 used size dictaphone.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And do you know, did that dictaphone use little tapes about the
6 size of my creation here? If you know.
7 A. Roughly, I think so. I think they're that big or smaller. I'm
8 not sure.
9 JUDGE ORIE: What Mr. McCloskey puts in the air is something he
10 fabricated with the size of approximately 3 to 4 centimetres by 1 and a
11 half to 2 centimetres.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions? It's
16 [overlapping speakers] -- it's not --
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was just asked by our client
18 to put one question and it is based on the question that was put by
19 Mr. McCloskey. With your leave.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the ordinary -- it's not the sequence
21 because it's the cross-examining party who puts the last questions to the
22 witness. But let me just consult with my colleagues.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Very exceptionally -- and Mr. Mladic is hereby
25 informed that if there's any question he would like counsel to put to the
1 witness, that he should intervene at the moment when the last round, that
2 is, re-examination, for the -- for the Defence is about to be concluded,
3 rather than at any later stage. But exceptionally, Mr. Stojanovic, one
4 question. And please be aware that if it triggers any need for the
5 Prosecution, that they could put any question in relation to the same
6 subject as well. And you know one question is not five but is one.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your
9 understanding, Your Honours.
10 Further Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Banduka, you were shown a photograph of the
12 facility in Crna Rijeka. My question: Can you tell the Court which part
13 of this facility was used by General Mladic for his own personal needs,
14 in order to stay in that building?
15 A. The upper part, the upstairs. General Mladic and I stayed there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. Typically your question
17 could have been put in re-examination ... but Mr. Mladic should remain
19 Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic should remain seated. You know the
20 rules, Mr. Mladic.
21 Mr. Banduka, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank
22 you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the
23 questions that were put to you, questions put by the parties, questions
24 put by the Bench. I did understand that you have reasons to return as
25 quickly as possible. I hope that we accommodated your travel programme,
1 and I wish you a safe return home again.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Defence ready to call its next witness --
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes -- no, not your next witness, but is the next --
8 is the witness whose examination was interrupted ready to enter the
9 courtroom? And I see that the usher already went out so, most likely, he
10 will appear in a moment.
11 Where we were, as a matter of fact, is that the
12 examination-in-chief had been concluded and that Mr. Traldi was about to
13 start his cross-examination.
14 MR. TRALDI: That's my recollection as well, Mr. President.
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Rajak.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that
19 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
20 beginning of your testimony last Thursday. You'll now be cross-examined
21 by Mr. Traldi. You find him to your right. Mr. Traldi is counsel for
22 the Prosecution.
23 Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 WITNESS: MILENKO RAJAK [Resumed]
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
3 Q. Good morning, sir.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. In paragraph 3 of your statement, now Exhibit D708, you say you
6 were a member of the Territorial Defence of the Serb forces in the
7 Rogatica municipality. Now, this Rogatica Serb TO was first organised in
8 March 1992; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And its commander was Rajko Kusic; correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Which company of the Territorial Defence were you in?
13 A. 2nd Company.
14 Q. And where was that company based?
15 A. It was stationed to the south of Rogatica in the Kozici local
17 Q. As of that time, when it was still the Territorial Defence, who
18 was your commander in that company?
19 A. Dragomir Paunovic.
20 Q. And he remained your commander until you were injured in
21 July 1992; correct?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. When you returned from your injuries in 1993 and joined the
24 military police, who was your commander at that time?
25 A. Radenko Ilic was the name of the military police commander.
1 MR. TRALDI: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3924.
2 Q. Now, this is a report by Mr. Kusic to the Drina Corps command
3 dated 25 February 1993. We see it's identified as coming from the
4 command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade in Rogatica. By
5 February 1993, that what's the Rogatica Brigade was called; right?
6 A. The 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.
7 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page two in both languages.
8 Q. We see him describe - and it's just a few lines down in each
9 language - "a group of SDS activists who returned to Rogatica
10 municipality and volunteered to attend courses for anti-sabotage
11 activities in education centres in Pazaric, Pancevo, and Han Pijesak,
12 taught by patriotic JNA officers."
13 Mr. Kusic writes:
14 "That unit was the first organised formation of Serbian army in
15 Rogatica municipality, and it was deployed on plateau Borika from the
16 3rd of March, 1992."
17 What he's describing here is the beginning of the formation of
18 the Rogatica Serb TO; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A few lines below that, we read:
21 "Unit from Borik, upon the invitation of the Serbian people from
22 Visegrad, took part in salvation of Serbian people by entering into
23 conflict with already established Ustasha formations."
24 I have two questions for you about this. First, was it common in
25 the Rogatica Brigade to refer to non-Serbs as Ustashas?
1 A. Well, yes.
2 Q. Second, in paragraph 4 of your statement, you suggest that
3 everyone in the Rogatica Serb TO was protecting their own home. In fact,
4 the Rogatica Serb TO was also carrying out operations in other
5 municipalities, like Visegrad; right?
6 A. Well, I don't know about that because I was up there in the Kozic
7 local commune, so we did not receive all this information.
8 Q. So you were not aware of what your commander, Mr. Kusic, is
9 reporting to the Drina Corps here, that forces of the Rogatica Serb TO
10 fought in Visegrad? You didn't know that?
11 A. Yes, because we were ordinary soldiers. We could not know about
12 every piece of information.
13 Q. And you, in your years as part of the Rogatica Veterans'
14 Association, you've never heard that other fighters in the Serb TO and
15 later in the brigade fought in Visegrad?
16 A. Yes. Later on, I did find out.
17 Q. So you now know that the Rogatica Serb TO was, in fact, also
18 carrying out operations in other municipalities, for instance, Visegrad;
20 A. Since partly we have a border with the municipality of Visegrad,
21 they went to defend our villages too.
22 Q. When you say "our villages," you don't mean villages where people
23 in the brigade lived. You mean Serb villages; right?
24 A. There were people from the brigade that were from there too. But
25 they're also Serb villages.
1 Q. Next, sir - and I'm done with this document - in paragraph 7 of
2 your statement, you say that the Rogatica Brigade was formed in June of
4 Now, I'm going to try to be very quick about this. On Thursday,
5 at transcript page 27285, Mr. Lukic was summarising corrections to your
6 statement and said about the Rogatica Brigade:
7 "Until 22nd of May it was under TO, and after 22nd of May, 1992,
8 it was army. That's how the witness" - meaning you - "sees it ..."
9 Is it correct that your understanding is that as of the
10 22nd of May, 1992, the Rogatica Serb TO was incorporated into the
11 Rogatica Brigade of the VRS?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Traldi, just one correction. It was not
14 Mr. Lukic but Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. TRALDI: I --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to correct myself. I think I'm mistaken.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's what happens if the examination of witnesses
18 is interrupted, and -- but it's clear by now.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Sir, I want to turn now -- I want to turn now my microphone on.
21 And, after that, I want to turn to some of the corrections that you made
22 to your statement with Mr. Lukic on Thursday.
23 Now, you made changes to your statement regarding two facilities:
24 The Vlahovic school and Rasadnik. Were you ever present at the Vlahovic
1 A. I was never present there because physically we could not have
2 been there since the entire town had been blocked by the Muslim forces,
3 and we were to the south of the town of Rogatica, about 10 kilometres
5 Q. When you say "we," are you referring to your own company?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So you do not know, then, from your own experience who the guards
8 were there, do you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When I say "from your own experience," if you were never present
11 there, you couldn't have any personal experience of who the guards were,
12 could you?
13 A. I could not see for myself who the guards were.
14 Q. Okay. In paragraph 9 of your statement -- actually, before we
15 get to that. Were you ever present at Rasadnik?
16 A. No, I was never in Rasadnik either. For the same reasons.
17 Q. How did you come to learn that prisoners held in Rasadnik were
18 exchanged in Sarajevo?
19 A. Well, after the situation calmed down, I found out from my fellow
21 Q. And you say you were never in Rasadnik either for the same
22 reasons. In fact, when you returned in 1993 after your injuries, of
23 course, Rogatica town was no longer being blocked and you could have gone
24 to Rasadnik if you wanted to; right?
25 A. Yes, that's right. But I had no need to do that and I didn't go.
1 Q. You mention prisoners of war were detained there. Do you agree
2 with me that civilians were also detained there?
3 A. Just of Serb ethnicity. There were soldiers and prisoners of
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you were asking about Rasadnik, isn't
6 it? And, in paragraph 9, I read that -- oh, it has been changed. Yes.
7 Yes, apologies.
8 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President I think we're fairly close to the
9 break. I'd suggest we take it now. I think I have about 15 or 20 more
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before we do that, Mr. Traldi, if we could just
12 clarify. You asked the question about civilians being also at -- in this
13 detention place and the answer was:
14 "Just of Serb ethnicity. There were soldiers and prisoners of
16 I want to find out from the witness, when you say "just of Serb
17 ethnicity," are you referring to civilians? Are you saying that the
18 civilians were only of Serb ethnicity?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, soldiers of Serb ethnicity.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: When you said just -- oh, you're talking about
21 soldiers. Then could you answer the question: Do you agree that
22 civilians were also kept in that place?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know about that.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 MR. TRALDI: And I can continue, Your Honours, if you wish, but
1 it is time for the break, I think.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, I just wanted to clarify that before.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one question before we take the break. When
4 you say you were not aware of any civilians, does that mean that you
5 didn't know about civilians being detained in Rasadnik and also that you
6 are not aware of any civilians detained in Vlahovic school?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know about Rasadnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And about Vlahovic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later. That it was a collection
10 centre for all, Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. TRALDI: If I might ask one follow-up question,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. The Chamber has received evidence that the overwhelming majority
17 of the civilians at the Vlahovic school were Muslims. Is that also
18 something you learned later?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break. And we'd like to see you
21 back in 20 minutes from now. You may follow the usher.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at quarter
24 past 12.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.17 p.m.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be escorted in the courtroom.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
6 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Could we have 65 ter 31332.
8 Q. While it comes up, sir, you mention in your statement that
9 Rasadnik prisoners were exchanged in Sarajevo. Now, your commander,
10 Mr. Kusic, would approve at least some of those exchanges; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And here, we see a document emanating --
13 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be something ...
14 MR. TRALDI: Let me try again briefly. It seems the problem has
15 been solved.
16 Q. We see a document emanating from the 1st Podrinje Brigade command
17 dated the 29th of May, 1993. This is an example of one such exchange
18 that Mr. Kusic is approving; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And is it your understanding that the purported reception centre
21 for Muslim residents in Rogatica mentioned in the document, is it your
22 understanding that that refers to Rasadnik?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document, 65 ter 31332.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P6854, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. Now, I want to turn to the corrections to paragraph 10. In your
5 initial signed statement, you said:
6 "The Crisis Staff was formed at the end of May, beginning of
7 June, after the negotiations with the Muslims who had actual power
8 failed. Vlahovic and Rasadnik were outside its purview and under the
9 control of the Rogatica Brigade."
10 Now, your evidence Thursday was that Vlahovic school was created
11 by the civilian authorities and Rasadnik was partially under the control
12 of the TO and military and partially under the control of the police; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. When you say the civilian authorities were responsible for the
16 Vlahovic school, which civilian authorities do you mean?
17 A. The police.
18 Q. Now, you say now that you don't know anything about the
19 competencies, composition or work of the Crisis Staff. The Chamber has
20 received evidence that, in fact, it was formed well before the end of
21 May. And that's, for instance, P3913 [Realtime transcript read in error
22 "P3193"]. You don't know when it was formed either; right?
23 A. No, I don't know. The information was not that accessible to us
24 for the reasons I already mentioned. We were quite far from that part of
25 the town.
1 Q. How is it that you know that the civilian police, you now say,
2 were responsible for the Vlahovic school?
3 A. Later, after 1993 when I was there, I learnt about that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I ask you one question in between.
5 You responded to a question put to you by Mr. Traldi that you do not know
6 when the Crisis Staff was formed. Nevertheless, in your statement, it
8 "The Crisis Staff was formed at the end of May, beginning of
9 June ..."
10 Now, how can you say that if you tell us today that you do not
11 know when it was formed?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information arrived with some
13 delay. So we did not know exactly when it was formed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But in your statement, you say it was formed end of
15 May, beginning of June. Whereas you now again confirm that you do not
16 know. What makes you say it was formed then and now to say: "Well, I
17 don't know"?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that, based on subsequent
19 information, we did not have the precise date of its formation. But we
20 did know that it had been set up.
21 JUDGE ORIE: How did you then know that it was the end of May,
22 beginning of June?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Information came, and I repeat, we
24 were far away. We did not know about the events immediately. But that
25 was more or less when I learnt, that's when I learnt.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you say "information came," it's -- what
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the formation.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But what then exactly did you learn about it?
5 Who did it, where was it done? Why late May, early June? Why not early
6 May? What was it? Or if you just don't know, if you say, "We just heard
7 that it was formed," then tell us as well, or give us the precise
8 detailed information you received.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard that it had been set
11 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you hear that? If you remember.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my superior commander, who was
13 up there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And who was that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragomir Paunovic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I have follow-up questions.
18 When did you get this information, that it had been formed?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In late May. I'm not 100 per cent
20 sure. More or less about that time.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Late May of which year?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: So you signed this statement on the 6th of June,
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE MOLOTO: You had this information from Mr. Paunovic
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information refers to the year
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes. But you gave this information in your
6 statement on the 6th of June, 2014; is that correct?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: And so when you made this statement, you knew
9 that, according to Dragomir Paunovic, this had been formed.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But I spoke based on the
11 information that I had at the time, the contemporaneous information.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: And as you sit here today, you testified that you
13 don't know when it was formed, or whether it was formed, which is what
14 Judge Orie was asking you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just told you that I learnt
16 only subsequently.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that. But all this you were asked
18 before you testified today, and today you have given two versions.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by my statement.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Which one? That you don't know or that Paunovic
21 told you it was formed?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he told me that the
23 Crisis Staff had been formed.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: So when you said you don't know, you were not
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: I'm not asking you about the date. When you said
3 you didn't know when it was formed, you were not correct.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that the information that
5 I've shared with you is accurate.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: You are not answering my question. Okay. I leave
7 it at that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. LUKIC: I apologise. If you can direct us, Your Honour, when
10 this witness said today that Crisis Staff was not formed. I don't
11 remember that portion.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Isn't this what Judge Orie was asking him just
14 If you look at page 51, line 12, Judge Orie says:
15 "Witness, could I ask you one question in between." I think he
16 meant one question. "You responded to a question put to you by
17 Mr. Traldi that you do not know when the Crisis Staff was formed.
18 Nevertheless, in your statement it reads: 'The Crisis Staff was formed
19 in the -- at the end of May, beginning of June ...'"
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the critical --
21 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] -- is when --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The critical question was on line 6 [Overlapping
23 speakers] ...
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] [Overlapping speakers]
1 MR. LUKIC: Not about the formation, only the date.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Line 6. Mr. Traldi asked on line 4 and 5 of
3 page 51:
4 "You don't know when it was formed either; right?"
5 The answer was:
6 "No, I don't know. The information was not that accessible ..."
7 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some issue about the when or the
8 whether. Let's carefully look at that. And that is, I take it,
9 Mr. Lukic, that you wanted to draw our attention to and that is well
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI: Just on the same line -- line 4, rather, of page 51,
14 Mr. President, I've been recorded - perhaps I misspoke - as referring to
15 P3193, and should have referred to P3913.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's hereby corrected.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TRALDI:
19 Q. Now, as to control over Rasadnik, the Chamber has received
20 evidence that beginning in late 1992, the commander there was a man named
21 Vinko Bojic, also known as Vili, and that he was a member of the
22 Rogatica Brigade. That is correct, isn't it?
23 A. Personally I didn't know the man. However, I do believe that he
24 was a member of the Rogatica Brigade.
25 Q. Now, the Chamber has also received evidence that Mr. Kusic
1 reported a number of times to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command - P312,
2 P459, P6803, for instance - on people being moved into the premises of
3 the secondary school. Were you aware that he was doing so?
4 A. No, I was not aware of that.
5 Q. When you made corrections to your statement regarding who had
6 control over the Vlahovic school and over Rasadnik, were you aware that
7 General Mladic was charged with crimes there?
8 A. I didn't know that.
9 MR. TRALDI: And could the Prosecution please have P6804.
10 Q. Now, sir, I'd asked earlier if you agreed with me that civilians
11 were held in the Rasadnik camp. Now this is a document dated the
12 1st of February, 1993, and it's being forwarded by the Drina Corps
13 command to the 4th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade. It's referring to
14 prisoners of war in the Vili camp, Rogatica.
15 Now to confirm again, Vili was the name -- the nickname of the
16 Rasadnik camp commander, Vinko Bojic; right?
17 A. Yes, that's what I heard. That's correct.
18 Q. I'd ask that you just look at this list for a moment, focussing
19 on the names and the years of birth, roughly 1 through 15 or so. Can you
20 confirm orally by saying "yes" once you've had an opportunity to review
21 that information.
22 A. None of the names rings any bells.
23 Q. Based on your experience in Rogatica municipality, these are
24 Muslim names; right?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And at number 4, we see Hanua Kustura. That's a woman's name;
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We see that she was born in 1892.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Earlier, in reference to Rasadnik, you said it was soldiers and
7 prisoners of war held there. So my question is: Were you aware that the
8 prisoners of war held at Rasadnik included 100-year-old women?
9 A. I was not aware of that. I am certain of that.
10 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, that completes my examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
12 Any further questions, Mr. Lukic?
13 MR. LUKIC: Just a few one -- but I don't think that I understood
14 well the last line of questions regarding villa so I might clarify it
15 with the witness.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, good afternoon yet again.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Is the villa one and the same as Rasadnik, do you know that? Is
20 there any other villa? Are we talking about one and the same building?
21 I really don't know.
22 A. No, no, the two are not the same.
23 Q. So what is the villa?
24 A. The villa is a catering facility.
25 Q. How far is it from Rasadnik; do you know?
1 A. In the Rogatica municipality, there was just one, and it was some
2 15 kilometres away.
3 Q. Thank you. This puts the villa away then.
4 And now just let's go back to today's record. Page 44, line 10.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- Mr. Lukic, you are talking about the villa. Now
8 I see in the original Vili between quotation marks. And --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yeah. It's grammar.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the quotation marks stand for what?
11 MR. LUKIC: I would say villa. We change our words even under
12 the quotation marks. There are different extensions. And if you want --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then ask the witness --
14 Are aware of any persons being detained in a villa where you said
15 there was a catering facility?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything at all about civilians being
18 detained anywhere in Rogatica?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not aware of that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. During that period of time, i.e., January and February 1993, did
23 you move around the area where the villa was located?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Do you know what was in the villa on the 1st February 1993? Was
1 it a restaurant or not?
2 A. It had been a restaurant, but by then, it was empty and
4 Q. Very well. Thank you. Before that, I was going to ask you
5 something that was recorded on page 44, line 10 earlier today.
6 My learned friend asked you, and I'm going to read the question
7 and answer in English and you will receive proper interpretation. And
8 then I'll have a question for you.
9 I quote:
10 [In English] "I have two questions for -- about this. First, was
11 it common in the Rogatica Brigade to refer to non-Serbs as Ustashas?
12 "A. Well, yes."
13 [Interpretation] The question, therefore, is this: Were all
14 Muslims and Croats referred to as Ustashas or fighters or juniors or
15 seniors or older people or younger people? Who was referred to as
17 A. Those who had been known from the Second World War, those who
18 were the organiser of the events that took place in 1944.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at P3942.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a new subject, or are we still on the
21 Ustasha issue?
22 MR. LUKIC: The same issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll wait for a second.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. "The unit from Borik, at the invitation of the Serbian people
1 from Visegrad, took part in the rescuing of the Serbian people by
2 engaging against the already established Ustasha formations."
3 That was read out to you.
4 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, that's not the same document. I don't know
5 what I said.
6 MR. TRALDI: I think if I might assist.
7 MR. LUKIC: It's P3924.
8 MR. TRALDI: Mr. Lukic did not require my assistance, it turned
9 out, as usual.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, anyways. I'm sorry, and we need page 2.
11 Q. [Interpretation] This is an analysis of combat readiness. It was
12 drafted on the 25th of February, 1993. When -- where -- and in that
13 document, the already established Ustasha formations are mentioned.
14 Who is that a reference to?
15 A. Muslim forces. The Green Berets.
16 Q. The Prosecutor skipped something and I'd like to see it. It says
17 here, and I'm going to read the entire sentence:
18 "At the same time, the somewhat well-organised Serbian units,
19 based on the TO principle, carried out training in order to prevent
20 sabotage activities which had already taken place against the Serbian
21 people in Bosnia."
22 Do you know whether there had been any attacks and sabotage
23 activities against the Serbian villages there in the months of March and
24 April 1992?
25 A. The first casualties were recorded on the 6th of May.
1 Q. Very well. Do you know anything about this group of 40 Serbian
2 lads who were SDS activists? They had volunteered to attend courses on
3 anti-sabotage activities.
4 A. I was never in touch with them.
5 Q. Do you know what kind of training took place in Han Pijesak,
6 Pazarici and --
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Very well. Thank you. At the time, were you able to follow any
9 Muslim media; and do you know what they called the Serbs?
10 A. They called us Chetniks.
11 Q. Did you consider yourself to be a Chetnik?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Did you consider that to be praise or an insult?
14 A. So we were Serb soldiers, soldiers of the Army of
15 Republika Srpska. That is to say, that is our name, and then we
16 considered Chetniks to be an insult.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rajak. That is all we had for you.
18 A. Thank you, too.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
20 Mr. Rajak, I have one or two questions.
21 You were asked whether, during January and February 1993, whether
22 you moved around in the area where the villa was located. Your answer
23 was: "No, I did not."
24 And then you were asked:
25 "Do you know what was in the villa on the 1st of February 1993?
1 Was there -- was it a restaurant or not?"
2 And then you said:
3 "It had been a restaurant, but by then, it was empty and
5 How did you know that it was empty and abandoned when you never
6 moved around in that period of time in the area where the villa was
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't move around but
9 because of the geographical position that it was in, I know that there
10 was no one there. Or we assumed that there was no one there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because we have seen a document which suggests
12 that there were a lot of people detained there, including elderly women.
13 So I'm just wondering why -- or how you can be so certain about the place
14 being abandoned. Or is it that you say: Well, it was just my assumption
15 that the place was abandoned and I do not know for sure.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the only one that was up
17 there in the municipality of Rogatica, I know that it had been abandoned.
18 If we're talking about the same thing.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, I do not know. But, again, a
20 minute ago, you said: It was just my assumption that there was no one
21 there. And now you say: I know that it had been abandoned. But do you
22 know whether anyone would have moved in again late January, early
23 February 1993?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no one.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And you consider this document which says there are
1 many people detained there to be a fraud or ... what makes you so sure if
2 you have not been there to say no one moved in, whereas there is a
3 document, an official document, which gives a long list of people
4 detained there?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Explanation. Rasadnik is something
6 different from villa. Villa is totally different. It's not the same
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think the questions that were put to you about the
9 villa, whether there was a restaurant, whether it had been abandoned, the
10 document which was shown to you was interpreted as dealing with the villa
11 as well. I asked about that, whether Vili would mean villa.
12 Yes, Mr. Traldi.
13 MR. TRALDI: Not by us, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I'm not -- no. I know that. That's -- but
15 that was ... so, still, the question is: You followed more or less the
16 suggestion that the Vili camp was the villa. And you said there was a
17 catering facility. It had been abandoned. And there was no one there,
18 although you have never been there.
19 I'm slightly confused by that evidence. Unless you say: What
20 was presented to me as the Vili camp could not be the villa I talked
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a villa that was abandoned.
23 As far as I understood the Prosecutor, this is the nickname of a
24 particular gentleman, Vili is his nickname. It is not the facility
25 called villa.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your answers about what you know as the
2 villa has got nothing to do with what you saw on this document which is
3 about the Vili camp and which, indeed, was interpreted by the Prosecution
4 in quite a different way from how the Defence interpreted it. But ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The villa facility has nothing
6 whatsoever to do with this other thing.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And that other thing referred to in the document as
8 the Vili camp, does that ring a bell what that could be?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not Logor Vili. It is
10 Rasadnik. But, actually, the name Vinko Bojic, his nickname is Vili.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So Logor Vili, for you, is a reference to Rasadnik.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
14 Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI: It appears to me that Mr. Lukic might have some
16 arising out of the Chamber's and to preserve the order, I might defer to
17 him, if that suits.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is the preferred order.
19 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I would just then ask for P6804 to
20 be brought on our screens.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We're not going to invite the witness to interpret
22 documents as you know, Mr. -- it's for the Chamber and for the parties to
23 do that --
24 MR. LUKIC: I would just ask him to carefully read the first
25 sentence of the document.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm quite willing to read it carefully. But we're
2 not going to ask the witness, a document which is unknown to him, to
3 interpret that. You may put questions about the document; that's fine.
4 But we're not seeking the witness to do the job of the Chamber and the
6 Further Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Rajak, I'm going to reading something out,
8 the first sentence from the document that is before you on the screen.
9 So it is a document of the Drina Corps command. It was sent to the
10 command of the 4th PLPBR to PP Cerovic, and this is how the sentence
12 "Pursuant to your request, we hereby submit the list of prisoners
13 of war at the Vili camp, Rogatica."
14 So it is the Vili camp, Logor Vili. Have you heard of a camp in
15 Rogatica called Vili or villa?
16 A. I haven't heard. Only Rasadnik. And Mr. Bojic's nickname is
18 Q. This is a military document. Did you have an opportunity to see
19 documents of the Drina Corps command frequently?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was it customary in our part of the world for facilities and POW
22 camps to be named by people's nicknames or after person's nicknames?
23 A. I did not have an opportunity to see something like that.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask one question for clarification.
25 What was Mr. Bojic's position in February 1993?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that he was a guard over
2 there at Rasadnik.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A guard of what?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of Rasadnik. The Rasadnik
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is the Rasadnik facility exactly?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where military prisoners were and
8 soldiers of Republika Srpska.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And he was a guard there, in your opinion and
10 your recollection. Was he the only guard or were there more guards, or
11 did he have a specific duty?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know about
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I shall conclude by putting this question. When answering
17 Judge Fluegge's question, you said that military prisoners were there and
18 soldiers of Republika Srpska. When you say "soldiers of
19 Republika Srpska," in what status were they?
20 A. Soldiers who did not carry out the military tasks that they were
21 given, so they were drunk, they abandoned the front line, and things like
23 Q. So they were arrested and detained?
24 A. Yes, detained.
25 Q. Except for these detainees, lest there be any confusion, were
1 there other Serb soldiers there who were not detained and who were
2 guarding all of these people?
3 A. I think so.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.
6 Mr. Traldi.
7 MR. TRALDI: Just briefly, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:
10 Q. As of the 1st of February, 1993, you were a member of the
11 military police in the Rogatica Brigade; right?
12 A. Yes, right.
13 Q. The villa and the Rasadnik camp are both within the area of
14 responsibility of the Rogatica Brigade; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. One of the things that military police have as part of their
17 responsibility is prisoners of war, isn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And just to confirm, you were not aware of any prisoners of war
20 ever being held in a building called the villa; right?
21 A. Exactly.
22 MR. TRALDI: That's all, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
24 Mr. Rajak, this concludes your testimony. On behalf of the
25 Chamber, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for
1 having answered all the questions, and for having had the patience this
2 morning to come later. And I'd also like to thank you for having
3 answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties and by
4 this Bench, and I wish you a safe return home again.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You may follow the usher.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock and I'm
9 wondering what would be best. Perhaps to take the break now and not to
10 start the testimony of the next witness for just ten or 15 minutes, but,
11 rather, to take the break now and then to --
12 MR. LUKIC: Go till the end of the day.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't know how much time you have reserved
14 for that witness, but ...
15 MR. LUKIC: I asked for an extension of time. Since we have
16 additional documents, I will not go anything through his statement, just
17 I would go in connection with his statement through some documents since
18 we have a lot of non-associated exhibits.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem as far as notice is concerned
20 in this respect. Because if you say: I'm going to ask the witness not
21 about his statement but about other matters, that may --
22 MR. LUKIC: It is in connection with his statement, of course,
23 but it's not the documents from the statement but the documents marked as
24 non-associated exhibits.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Last night, Mr. Lukic
2 informed us that he had four more documents and wanted to change the
3 estimate from 30 minutes to two hours, and we heard a little bit more
4 information about this witness. And the Prosecution is not objecting to
5 that, though we'd obviously prefer that not happen, and I would ask that
6 my estimate from two hours go up to three hours. I hope I don't have to
7 use that but given the late notice and I'm really not sure where
8 Mr. Lukic is going on this -- but we do know this witness, he's testified
9 many times, and we're ready to go.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Lukic, that is one and a half hour
11 from for four documents, I understand. That's 22 and a half minutes a
12 document which is not --
13 MR. LUKIC: I wish it's only four documents. As Mr. McCloskey
14 said, I informed them about four new documents that are not on the list.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you know --
16 MR. LUKIC: I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I make two observations. The first is that the last
18 time you asked for more time, that the way in which your
19 examination-in-chief developed was such that we thought that you should
20 stay within your original time-limits and you even stayed within it more
21 than expected, so that was moving in various directions rather quickly.
22 That's one.
23 Second, it seems there is a tendency for the Defence to --
24 MR. LUKIC: It's only me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's only you. You take the full blame for it.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless it will have consequences for the total
3 amount of time.
4 MR. LUKIC: We'll stick with our allocated amount of time,
5 Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Which means that you would have to skip witnesses at
7 a certain stage or make them 92 bis or -- well, there are various options
8 but --
9 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you would give that thorough thought,
11 then -- and you say you want to conclude today, that's -- well, that's
12 not within two hours, but -- we'll take a break, and we'll resume at
13 1.30, and we'll closely monitor and follow the way in which the
14 examination-in-chief develops.
15 --- Recess taken at 1.08 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into
18 the courtroom.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Kralj. Before you give
22 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text
23 is now handed out to you. I'd like to invite you to make that solemn
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: SLAVKO KRALJ
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Kralj.
5 Mr. Kralj, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You find him
6 to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kralj.
10 A. Good day.
11 Q. For the record, could you please state your name and surname,
13 A. I am Slavko Kralj.
14 Q. Mr. Kralj, did you give a statement to the representatives of
15 General Mladic's Defence?
16 A. I gave a statement to the representatives of General Mladic's
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we have document 1D1644 in
19 e-court, please.
20 Q. You see the document on the screen before you now. Do you see a
21 signature on this page?
22 A. I see the document, and I see the signature on this page in the
23 Serbian version.
24 Q. Can you recognise the signature?
25 A. That is my signature.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us now take a look at the last
3 page, please, the last page of this document.
4 Q. Again, on this page, in the B/C/S version, can you recognise the
6 A. Yes, that is my signature.
7 Q. Mr. Kralj, the information that you provided in this written
8 statement, are they correct and truthful?
9 A. All the information I provided in this statement is correct and
10 truthful, and I wouldn't change any of it.
11 Q. Would you give the same answers if the same questions were put to
12 you today?
13 A. If I were to be asked the same questions, I would give the same
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to tender
17 Mr. Kralj's statement along with the associated exhibits.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, first, the statement would --
20 Mr. Registrar, would receive number?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D712, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D712 is admitted into evidence.
23 Mr. Lukic, we leave the associated exhibits, which are quite high
24 in number, for a while, because we would like to think about the
25 number --
1 MR. LUKIC: There are eight.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look.
3 MR. LUKIC: Three already have P numbers and eight associated
4 exhibits are left for admission.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll deal with them separately, but I do
6 agree with that you it's not -- it's not that high a number that -- to
7 have great concerns about. Yes.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: I will read the statement summary of Mr. Kralj, and
10 then, as I informed Your Honours, I will have questions for this
11 witness --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
13 MR. LUKIC: -- in regard of some additional documents we didn't
14 tender as associated exhibits.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Slavko Kralj was lieutenant-colonel in VRS and liaison officer
18 with UNPROFOR during relevant period. Until autumn 1994, witness was in
19 1st Krajina Corps, and since then, he was in VRS Main Staff Department
20 for Relation with UNPROFOR.
21 Witness will testify that the 1st Krajina Corps received
22 information from VRS Main Staff on routes of UNPROFOR convoys and their
23 passage through check-points, which information was further sent to
24 subordinate units in order to facilitate uninterrupted passage of those
1 He will testify on often abuse of these convoys, on fuel
2 smuggling, as well as of surveillance equipment.
3 Witness was directly subordinated to Djurdjic Milos, who was
4 chief of -- chief of his department and that his main task was to
5 translate notifications received from UNPROFOR, which mostly were
6 requests for passage of convoys.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this summary is so wrong that I
8 have to object at this point. He's never testified that his main task
9 was mere translation.
10 MR. LUKIC: It's not mere translation, main task. He had
11 other --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: His main tasks. Yeah. That's not what he's
13 testified to. I've heard him testify many times. And he also had
14 responsibility not for just UNPROFOR convoys --
15 MR. LUKIC: Yes --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- which you've so far only said. So this is
17 beginning to mislead the public and the Court, if --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, please be very cautious there. You may
19 remember that it was only last week that I had to remind that you parts
20 of your summary did not reflect anything that was in the statement. So
21 if you want to postpone your summary any further so as to verify whether
22 it is an accurate summary of the statement, you have an opportunity to do
23 so. If you'd continue, then I expect you to be very precise. And,
24 again, it's in order to inform the public. Therefore, you can make up
25 your mind --
1 MR. LUKIC: First of all, the summary is not too long. I think
2 we have the rule, how long the summary can be, and it doesn't -- hasn't
3 reached that limit yet.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is not about length. It is about accuracy.
5 MR. LUKIC: That -- the first objection was it was too lengthy.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I haven't heard that, as a matter of fact. You --
7 that is a wrong summary of what Mr. McCloskey told us. Perhaps "so
8 wrong" you understood as "so long."
9 MR. LUKIC: Oh, maybe.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well. Wrong is worse than long.
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm aware of that.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber has some concerns as
14 well. You referred to other testimony. Of course, the summary is just
15 about what is found in the statement, and, of course, the statement says
16 something about the main task being translating. Now, whether you agree
17 with that, that's of course a matter for cross-examination to challenge
18 that and to test that evidence. But in itself, summarising that the
19 witness in his statement says that it was his main task seems to be not
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe he said as he started out that was his
22 main task but that as his job became more involved, it was much more
23 involved, and he wouldn't be called here as a translator merely.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: So this is misleading in my view.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- at least the witness said somewhere
2 it was his main task. That's where you interrupted, I think, as a matter
3 of fact. We do not know what Mr. Lukic would then --
4 MR. LUKIC: I was instructed to summarise -- by Your Honours the
5 last time to summarise the statement, and if I want to go further, I have
6 to go further viva voce with this witness.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now --
8 MR. LUKIC: In paragraph 4 of his -- of his statement --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 4, that is what I referred to as the --
10 MR. LUKIC: It says that his main -- "my job was mainly to
11 translate English language materials," so that's why --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I --
13 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] -- put in my summary
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's what -- yes, apologies. That was what I was
16 referring to. And that was also where I said to Mr. McCloskey that
17 whatever the witness may have testified about in other cases, that
18 that's, of course, not part of your summary. The summary is exclusively
19 about this statement.
20 Let's continue.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will continue with the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: With the summary, yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: He will testify about his work as an interpreter with
24 the department in charge of maintaining relations with foreign military
25 missions and units at the VRS Main Staff from 1994 to the end of the war,
1 about the procedure of announcing convoys at the level of the VRS
2 Main Staff. He will also comment on the documents related to these
4 And that would be the short statement summary.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. If you'd just give me one second,
6 Mr. Lukic. Yes, Mr. Lukic -- let me just have a look. One second,
8 Please proceed. I was just checking all the redactions of the
9 previous one because when you filed your 92 ter statement, then the
10 redacted portions in the original were not yet redacted in the English
11 translation, which, of course, was very confusing for us. And I was just
12 checking that, finally, the translation, as it is uploaded, now reflects
13 the -- at least the redaction which I found at the end of the statement.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will start with the
16 documents. So first I would call the document 1D2209.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, this is a document issued by the
18 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 1st of August, 1993.
19 Let me first ask you: Where were you at the time?
20 A. At that time, I was in the 1st Krajina Corps. I was the liaison
21 officer in the Department for Civilian Affairs, in the corps.
22 Q. What about your corps? Did your corps receive this document?
23 And how can we tell from this document?
24 A. Our corps received this document, indeed. You can see that in
25 the heading where it says: "To the command of the 1st KK," standing for
1 Krajina Corps.
2 Q. In the first paragraph of this document, it says:
3 "Following an agreement ... between the commanders of the
4 conflicting parties in the territory of the former BH, dated the 30th of
5 July, 1993, Article II, Rome, and the decision by the Republika Srpska
6 government, I hereby issue the following order."
7 This document lists what needs to be done in order for the convoy
8 to go through. Do you remember, at the time when you were a member of
9 the 1st Krajina Corps, whether this order was carried out and whether its
10 stipulations were implemented?
11 A. This document based on which the command of the 1st Krajina Corps
12 drafted its own document and implemented this order in practice, and this
13 order is relative to the announcement of the convoy carrying humanitarian
14 aid. Information -- and this is information to the check-points, and it
15 also explains the procedure that needs to be complied with -- complied
16 with in the corps, at levels ranging from the corps command down to the
17 check-point which would be in charge of controlling the convoy.
18 Q. Thank you. Under 1, there is an announcement of the convoy and
19 it says that:
20 "Representatives of the humanitarian organisations shall give
21 timely notifications on convoys to the Ministry of Defence of the
22 Republika Srpska government."
23 Did you know at the time that convoys were to be announced and
24 were indeed announced through a civilian body; the Ministry of Defence,
25 that is?
1 A. There were earlier attempts to announce convoys directly to the
2 Main Staff. This order, however, regulates the matter in the following
3 way. Convoys had to be announced to the Ministry of Defence of the
4 government of Republika Srpska. And this was, indeed, implemented. All
5 those who addressed the staff would be referred to the Ministry of
6 Defence of Republika Srpska.
7 Q. In paragraph 4, it says that the control of convoys carrying
8 humanitarian aid takes place only once as the convoys enter the territory
9 of Republika Srpska. What was the idea behind this?
10 A. The idea behind this was to avoid unnecessary delays in the
11 passage of convoys because there were several check-points along the
12 convoy route. Therefore, only at the entry into the territory of
13 Republika Srpska there's control at that check-point, and the other
14 check-points were not allowed to carry out their own controls. That
15 resulted in the speed and enhanced security of the passage of those
16 convoys. Also, the convoys were given escorts by the military police of
17 the Army of Republika Srpska as well as the civilian police.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now I would like to call up 5,
20 where it says what the officer in charge of a convoy has to have, or has
21 to submit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, the fact that you are down again
23 means that there is no intervention?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I misunderstood. I thought he was calling out a
25 new number but I see he's referring to the paragraph.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are we on the right page in English, Mr. Lukic?
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are. It says crossed number 5, crossed out
5 5, handwritten 4.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now are we in paragraph 5 as handwritten or as
7 typewritten crossed out?
8 MR. LUKIC: 5 typewritten crossed out.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So that's paragraph 4, yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
11 Q. [Interpretation] It says here the officer in charge of the convoy
12 has to have an approval by the Ministry of Defence, a list of convoy
13 personnel and their functions, a list of the convoy's escorts, a list of
14 motor vehicles, a declaration of the type and quantities of cargo, a list
15 of radio sets and all other technical devices mobile or integrated into
16 the vehicle.
17 Was this implemented in practice? Was this, indeed, requested
18 from convoy officers? And do you know if convoy officers were aware of
19 those obligations?
20 A. This was the first thing that was requested from the convoy
21 officer. First he had to have an approval from the Ministry of Defence
22 and then he had to have a list of personnel and everything else listed in
23 here which allowed us to carry out the necessary controls. Without --
24 without those prerequisites, we could not carry out any controls, if
25 those documents were missing.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, are you repeating, more or less, what was
2 read to you as the content of paragraph 4. But the question was whether
3 this was implemented in practice.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this was implemented in
6 JUDGE ORIE: The second part of this -- the third part of this
7 composite question was: Do you know whether convoy officers were aware
8 of those obligations? And I take it, Mr. Lukic, you refer to convoy
9 officers from the -- accompanying the convoy and -- or did you refer to
10 the Republika Srpska officers?
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It says here the convoy officer of
12 the humanitarian organisation. Perhaps it would be better for the
13 witness to say how he understands this wording.
14 Q. Were those officers of the VRS --
15 JUDGE ORIE: We're not going to ask the witness how he should
16 interpret your question. Apparently you wanted to refer to convoy
17 officers, that is Republika Srpska officers or --
18 MR. LUKIC: No --
19 JUDGE ORIE: No --
20 MR. LUKIC: Humanitarian --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Were the convoy officers that is to be understood as
22 officers which were involved in this convoy from the humanitarian
23 organisations, were they aware of these rules? Those who had to comply
24 with them.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We called them convoy leaders,
1 officers in charge of convoys. And they knew exactly what they had to
2 have, what documents, and what to do, because they had been provided with
3 that information from the Ministry of Defence. In other words, every
4 convoy leader knew exactly what documents he had to have in order to be
5 able to drive or take the -- the route that he wanted to take with the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Could I request that we be
9 made clear in the questions that are asked whether or not this witness is
10 speaking as the liaison officer of the 1st Krajina Corps during the
11 time-period that he was the liaison officer of the 1st Krajina Corps, or
12 is he speaking from his perspective as the -- his position in the
13 Main Staff where he was part of the unit? Because it's unclear from the
14 questions and it's certainly unclear from his answers, and it makes the
15 world of difference. And this document is 1993. And I think -- it's
16 clear from his summary that he wasn't a Main Staff officer at that point.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you always clearly make a
18 distinction between the witness talking about what he experienced as
19 liaison officer in the 1st Krajina Corps and what he experienced in his
20 position in the Main Staff.
21 MR. LUKIC: I'll do my best, Your Honour, but I think that I
22 started my line of questions with asking this witness what was his
23 position at this period of time in 1993. But I can clarify with him what
24 he thinks.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it is --
1 MR. LUKIC: And as you know, all our discussions could be well
2 understood by Mr. Kralj since he speaks English well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although he has his earphones on and is most
4 likely listening to the B/C/S version. So whether he followed our
5 discussions is uncertain yet.
6 But certainly this document deals with the situation, 1st of
7 August, 1993, and onwards.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, you heard what Mr. McCloskey is
11 concerned about. You told us that this document was, indeed, sent to
12 your corps. You also told us that it was implemented. Were you
13 personally aware of the contents of this document in your position at the
14 1st Krajina Corps?
15 A. Your Honours, I'm speaking about this document from my position
16 as the liaison officer. Because the practical implementation of this
17 order with regard to the convoys went through me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
19 Next question, please, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, we would tender this document into
21 evidence now.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we see whose name it came out in -- on to?
23 MR. LUKIC: Maybe I should do that as well.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the last page of this document.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, you see that at the end of this
2 document it says "Manojlo Milovanovic." Was it customary for
3 General Milovanovic to sign this type of documents?
4 A. Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic was a member of the Main Staff
5 who most commonly sent out this type of documents and also signed them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. You tendered it.
7 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, no objections since we have now looked at the
9 last page.
10 Mr. Registrar, the document would receive number?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D713, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D713 is admitted into evidence. We're not going to
13 send it back for translation where the signature is in English
14 "Milanovic" and not "Milovanovic." These are details, I would say. And
15 the whole question about signatures, Mr. Lukic, this typically seems to
16 be a telex-type of -- a telex-communicated kind of order, which it's
17 difficult to sign them because telex machines do not accept signatures.
18 MR. LUKIC: But still we can see some signature so that's why I
19 said "signed." I don't know if [overlapping speakers] --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I have got no idea whose signatures these
21 are. The witness has not told us.
22 MR. LUKIC: I can ask him if you want.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you think the witness would know, then...
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Kralj, can you see the signature? Are you familiar with
1 General Milovanovic's signature? Can you recognise the signature in this
3 A. It's hardly legible. It's hard to tell that this is
4 Milovanovic's signature. And since the document was sent via an
5 encrypted communication line, I really can't claim with certainty that
6 this is his signature.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic, of course, it reminds me of the fact
8 that the document bears a stamp of reception. Now, of course, I cannot
9 exclude anything, but whether General Milovanovic would have travelled to
10 the place where the document was received and then to sign it, that's --
11 well, everything is possible but it's not the most logical thing to
12 expect, I would say. Let's leave it to that. The document is admitted.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would call the next
15 document, 1D2210.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And for the previous document, Mr. Lukic, I take it
17 that you are aware that there are a lot of handwritten strike-throughs,
18 et cetera, so what to think about this document or not, we'd like to hear
19 from you at any point in time.
20 MR. LUKIC: From the position of this witness, since that
21 document came from the Main Staff, I didn't want to enter into that
22 debate with him.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I'm not saying -- but, of course, the
24 Chamber, if interpreting such a document has a type-written text and has
25 a lot of handwritten changes to it and then, of course, might be
1 interested to have an answer to the question who changed it, when, before
2 it was sent, after it was sent, when it was received, what the meaning of
3 those changes is, I just draw your attention to those questions that are
4 still open.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I just -- I only can say
7 that we found it as it is so ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming you for having this version.
9 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Paragraph 15 of your statement, Mr. Kralj, you
11 say there that check-points were open 24 hours a day during a certain
12 period of time. We have a document before us dated the 30th of August,
13 1993. We cannot see it on the screen right now, but at the bottom of the
14 page, we have the signature of General Manojlo Milovanovic. Type-signed.
15 Right? It's a telex.
16 Paragraph 1 says:
17 "Check-points must function continuously, 24 hours a day ..."
18 Were there any problems with this kind of work?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, could we get a time-frame?
20 MR. LUKIC: I think that I said it's the 30th of August, 1993,
21 when the documents -- document emanates from.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you mean were there any problems before or
23 were there any problems in the implementation of the -- the question is
24 not --
25 MR. LUKIC: In the implementation of this 24-hour schedule.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question now is whether there are any
2 problems in the implementation of the 24-hour around-the-clock manning of
3 the check-points.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, may I say that on the
5 basis of this order it was established that check-points could operate
6 24 hours a day. However, after a few days, it was ascertained that that
7 was a major problem for the passage of convoys because they move at
8 night. And the following thing happened. Some were asking to move
9 specifically at night-time, so the idea was to have as many convoys pass
10 as possible. Nevertheless, when these problems appeared, UNPROFOR and
11 other humanitarian organisation convoys, after a while, an order followed
12 to restore things to the way they were beforehand so that there would be
13 safety and security for all convoys.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Have you done with the document? Do you want to
17 tendered it? Because then we might --
18 MR. LUKIC: I would like to tender this document, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no objections.
20 Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D714, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: D714 is admitted into evidence.
23 Mr. Kralj, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you back
24 tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom. But before you leave
25 this courtroom, I instruct you that you should not speak or communicate
1 in whatever way with whomever about your testimony, testimony given today
2 or testimony still to be given, no communication whatsoever. If this is
3 clear to you, you may follow the usher, and we'd like to see you back
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All is clear. Thank you.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow,
8 Tuesday, the 28th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
9 courtroom, I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of
12 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.