1 Tuesday, 28 October 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours. This
9 is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Judge Fluegge is, for urgent personal reasons, unable to hear the
12 case with us today. Judge Moloto and myself have considered whether it
13 would be in the interest of the -- interests of justice to continue to
14 hear the case. We concluded that it was. We also had in mind that the
15 expected absence of Judge Fluegge will be of short duration. We expect
16 him to be back tomorrow.
17 Therefore, we'll sit 15 bis today.
18 Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
19 Mr. McCloskey.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. I
21 would just like to introduce a lawyer to the team. I think you've seen
22 her before. This is Sarah Melikian, one of our newer lawyers.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome to court.
24 [The witness takes the stand]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Kralj. Before we continue, I'd
1 like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration
2 you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that you'll speak the
3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 We'll now continue. Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: SLAVKO KRALJ [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kralj.
10 A. Good morning.
11 MR. LUKIC: I would kindly ask to have 1D2212 on our screens.
12 Q. [Interpretation] As you can see, Mr. Kralj, this is a document of
13 the Main Staff. The date is the 12th of February, 1994. At that time,
14 you were still in the 1st Krajina Corps, weren't you? Can you tell us,
15 on the basis of this document, whether we can see that the
16 1st Krajina Corps received the document that is before us? Have you seen
18 A. This document shows that the 1st Krajina Corps did receive this
19 document and I was aware of it.
20 Q. In the introductory part of the document, the sources are
21 referred to, and it says that is what is under way is a planned and
22 organised action to provide the Muslims with military equipment,
23 strategic materials, and other different equipment for waging war.
24 Do you remember that you were aware of these findings of the VRS
25 at the time?
1 A. There were reports that humanitarian organisations were engaged
2 in reconnaissance activity in addition to their regular activities. In
3 order to prevent that or reduce that, this order was issued.
4 Q. In paragraph 4 and further on, it says that the inspection of the
5 same convoy two or more times is forbidden. Do you know whether that was
6 carried out in practice?
7 A. There were cases when some check-points tried to check convoys
8 arbitrarily. This order did away with that, and it was strictly stated
9 that a convoy could be checked only once after entering the territory of
10 Republika Srpska and then, afterwards, they would cross the line.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now we need the next page in the
12 English version, paragraph 7. So we need the bottom of the B/C/S
14 Q. It says: "Avoid incidents, but if they occur, inform the VRS
15 Main Staff immediately."
16 In practice, were attempts made to avoid incidents with convoys?
17 A. In the 1st Krajina Corps, we strictly paid attention to that, not
18 to have any kind of incidents whatsoever with convoys. Even more so,
19 because the route from the entrance, from Gradiska to Turbe towards
20 Zenica, was very long, and it went through this terrain where there could
21 have been some groups or individuals who were just acting on their own
22 who would ask convoys perhaps for some favours and things like that.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the next page in B/C/S. Let
24 us focus on paragraph 8. The order says that the personnel of UNPROFOR
25 and humanitarian organisations should be treated professionally and
2 Then paragraph 9 says:
3 "The corps command will assign a person in the corps command to
4 follow the situation related to the movement of UNPROFOR and humanitarian
5 organisations in their zone and resolve problems."
6 Q. In your corps, who was in charge of this that is referred to in
7 paragraph 9; do you remember?
8 A. As for paragraph number 9, the sector for civilian affairs was in
9 charge of that, and I personally was in charge of that, as I was a member
10 of that sector.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. LUKIC: I would tender this document into evidence,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D715, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D715 is admitted.
17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. In paragraph 16 of your statement, you speak of certain cases
19 when some convoys or parts of certain convoys were returned or were not
20 allowed passage.
21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So could we please see 1D2216 in this
23 Q. This is a document of the Drina Corps, of the command of the
24 Drina Corps, the 17th of September, 1993. And the Main Staff is supposed
25 to receive this document and it is Colonel Magazin that is supposed to
1 deal with this. Do you know who Colonel Magazin is?
2 A. Colonel Magazin was the chief of Department for Civilian Affairs
3 in the Main Staff of VRS. Later on, Colonel Milos Djurdjic took over
4 from him.
5 Q. I'll count the lines. Line 9 from the middle in B/C/S, line 8 in
6 the English version, what is written here is the following: "They did
7 not allow the vehicle to be inspected," that is to say, the participants
8 in the convoy didn't.
9 Was it the duty of the persons accompanying the convoys to allow
10 the inspection of convoys by the VRS?
11 A. The duty of the escorts of convoys was to allow inspection by the
12 VRS, according to the procedures carried out by the VRS.
13 Q. Were UNPROFOR and the UNHCR informed, do you remember, that
14 equipment for video recording was prohibited?
15 A. Everyone had been informed in detail that equipment for video
16 recording not was allowed, regardless of whether it is UNPROFOR or other
17 humanitarian organisations, because they had appropriate meetings before
18 they submitted requests for movement.
19 Q. We see from this document that members of the convoy had
20 35 cameras on them, and after the truck was stopped - the one that could
21 not be inspected - the convoy proceeded towards Sarajevo.
22 So what was the procedure when forbidden goods were found? Was
23 there a right to keep the entire convoy, to stop it?
24 A. The procedure was to inspect the convoy. If it was established
25 that something was wrong or that there was something that was being
1 smuggled, something that was not on the list, then an assessment was
2 made. If it was ammunition or something more serious, then the entire
3 convoy would be stopped. However, since these were goods that were not
4 for military purposes, then such goods would be seized temporarily and
5 returned subsequently, or in agreement with the leader of the convoy, it
6 would be returned to the origin and what was all right would continue the
7 journey. Of course, if the leader of the convoy would agree. In most
8 cases, the leader of the convoy would agree and the convoy would continue
9 its journey.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document into evidence,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D716, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: D716 is admitted.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. [Interpretation] And now I would like do
18 call up 1D2215.
19 Q. In this document, which is dated 26 September 1993, in
20 paragraph 3, it says that UNPROFOR activities in the territory of
21 Republika Srpska are numerous. Every day on the roads there are very
22 large numbers of UN Military Observer teams, civilian police, convoys to
23 relieve forces in the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica and Zepa,
24 logistical support convoys, and columns escorting convoys by humanitarian
25 organisations and UNPROFOR command organs on reconnaissance and other
1 activities. It also says that so far the most frequented routes are
2 locations in the east of Republika Srpska as follows: Zepa, Srebrenica,
4 In the following paragraph, there's a reference to a systematic
5 gathering of information on the situation in the territory. And then
6 there is reference to much recording done with video cameras and still
7 cameras, that there are people deliberately stopping in the sectors where
8 VRS and MUP positions and check-points are located. It also says that
9 columns halt on the roads at will. They deliberately run late and travel
10 after dark. They stay overnight in RS territory without anybody's
11 knowledge and approval, and so on.
12 In conclusion, it says that all those activities are for the
13 purpose of intelligence and reconnaissance activities.
14 My question is: Was UNPROFOR allowed to halt, to stop by the
15 positions of the VRS without being announced, to spend a night in the VRS
16 territory without anybody's knowledge or approval?
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE ORIE: I do not receive English translation.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] UNPROFOR was not allowed to spend
20 any time in Republika Srpska, according to its mandate. They were only
21 allowed to pass through the territory of Republika Srpska providing they
22 were previously announced.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. The Judges did receive the interpretation of this part of your
25 answer. Was there anything else you wanted to add?
1 A. I would like to underscore that according to UNPROFOR's mandate,
2 they were not allowed to stay in the territory of Republika Srpska. All
3 of their movements had to be announced and controlled by the military of
4 Republika Srpska in keeping with agreements that were reached between
5 UNPROFOR, the command of the Army of Republika Srpska, and the command of
6 the BiH army.
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're interested in the following
8 page in both versions. Paragraph 2 in both versions.
9 Q. It says that:
10 "We know for certain that all VRS firing positions, anti-aircraft
11 defence rocket unit positions, air surveillance and warning system
12 positions, command posts, communication centres, central hubs have been
13 detected and recorded."
14 When it comes to the gathering of those data, was that agreed
15 with the VRS or was it done in secret by UNPROFOR?
16 A. The data in question was gathered secretly by UNPROFOR. They
17 wanted to assess the situation as it was on the VRS side. Later on, it
18 would turn out that the data collected was also used for other purposes.
19 To be more specific, for air-strike campaigns.
20 Q. In the following paragraph, it says that NATO forces have carried
21 out deployment and trained and drilled their guidance officers.
22 Had that been agreed with VRS?
23 A. Of course that such a detrimental activity cannot be agreed or
24 approved. And as for guidance forces, they guide missiles to be precise
25 in bombarding particular facilities.
1 Q. Paragraph 8 it says that:
2 "It is not unusual for columns from UNPROFOR or humanitarian
3 organisations to openly oppose a planned inspection when entering RS
5 In such cases, those convoys which did not allow control, were
6 they allowed to enter the territory of Republika Srpska?
7 A. I personally had a problem at the Gradiska border crossing. A
8 UNHCR convoy arrived from the direction of Zagreb. We had organised a
9 somewhat more detailed control of its cargo but it wasn't allowed. After
10 the convoy leader consulted with his superior in Zagreb, we agreed that
11 the convoy would go back to Zagreb because they wouldn't allow us to
12 control it. Later on, we learned that that same convoy went in the
13 direction of Bihac and that it carried a certain quantity of weapons and
14 ammunition in covered spaces within the vehicles.
15 Q. Was it agreed that such convoys --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could we seek clarification.
17 You said you later learned. How did you learn that, that there
18 was a certain quantity of weapons and ammunition was hidden in the
19 covered spaces? How did you learn that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intelligence organs recorded
21 statements by logistics organs in Bihac, and they claimed that a certain
22 quantity of weapons and ammunition was received through UNHCR convoys,
23 and this matched our data on the movement of that convoy which had been
24 stopped and returned to Zenica across Banja Luka and Gradiska.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if such recordings would be available,
1 that, of course, would assist the Chamber in better understanding what is
2 now presented as a rather general way.
3 MR. LUKIC: The document, this document is pretty specific so I
4 don't think that evidence in general is general. It's very specific.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm talking about the document which the
6 witness is talking about. That it was recorded. Because then we have
7 one focussed situation and that allows also for -- to see whether there's
8 any -- whether there's any protest or -- against such allegations.
9 That's -- but if it's there, do not hesitate to present it. If it's not
10 there, then, of course, we'll have to do without.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, where would we be able to find that
14 document? You say that the security organ recorded the conversations of
15 their logistics organs in which they mentioned that they received weapons
16 from UNHCR.
17 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second.
18 Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry. I think we've got an important
20 translation problem. I think I heard that Colonel Kralj said he received
21 intelligence information and the question went back to him as security
22 information. So I think if we could make sure that we've got the same
23 units being talked to -- about.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please understand the question such, Mr. Kralj, that
2 Mr. Lukic was seeking information on where such recordings made by
3 intelligence organs were kept.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this can be found
5 here in e-court, because in previous cases, it was mentioned that that
6 convoy transported weapons. That is mentioned in some reports that were
7 presented, and they refer to logistics reports from Bihac. According to
8 them, the only aid that they received was from UNHCR. Later on, I put
9 two and two together and I realised that it is about the same convoy,
10 because the times matched.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And then in that case, could we be clear whether
13 the colonel is getting his information from his time at the VRS or what
14 he has learned over the years here as documents have been shown to him.
15 It's a little -- now a little unclear to me.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are you willing to follow the suggestion
17 made by Mr. McCloskey to find out.
18 MR. LUKIC: Of course.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Kralj, you heard my learned friend, Mr. McCloskey. He wants
22 you to clarify and tell him what you knew before - if anything - and what
23 you learned subsequently from documents, if you indeed learned anything
24 from the documents subsequently shown to you?
25 A. The first part, it is true that the convoy did not allow us to
1 control it and returned, and we had our doubts about the convoy's cargo.
2 We thought that it was transporting weapons. And I -- as for the second
3 part, I was shown some documents where a reference was made to the
4 intelligence of the enemy side and their reports in which they say that
5 they received weapons from UNHCR and that was the only assistance they
6 had. Those weapons were transported in a UNHCR convoy.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
8 When you say "we later learned," you later saw documents, is that
9 at the time, well, let's say, within a short -- within a short period
10 after you were there when the convoy was stopped; or is it that you saw
11 those documents and you received that information later? That means
12 after the war, for example, in this Tribunal.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I established that
14 here at this Tribunal.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you also -- that reports in which they
16 say that they received weapons from UNHCR, earlier you told us that --
17 that was one of your conclusions, that the documents did not literally
18 say that, but that you matched the information and that you concluded
19 that weapons were provided by UNHCR.
20 Is it that the documents directly state that weapons were
21 received by the UNHCR; or is it that matching the information made you
22 conclude that they were sent by UNHCR?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I read that they were
24 received from UNHCR in Bihac, that a certain quantity of ammunition and
25 weapons were received there. And I concluded that that was one and the
1 same convoy that was supposed to cross the border from Gradiska and then
2 continue on to Banja Luka and Zenica. It never went through there. It
3 repeated its journey, but the second time round, it passed through Bihac.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, the documents are explicit in that
5 weapons and ammunition was provided by UNHCR, and you concluded that that
6 must have been the same convoy as you had seen before, which then later
7 provided that --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- material. Thank you.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 [In English] We would tender this document, Your Honours.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we at least see who wrote it or whose name
14 it was under?
15 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the last page on both versions.
16 Q. [Interpretation] You see the name of Manojlo Milovanovic typed
17 out here. Would you say that that is customary for General Milovanovic
18 to be dealing with this kind of work?
19 A. General Milovanovic was in charge of such affairs, and he did
20 send these documents.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that with this information there's no
22 further objection, Mr. McCloskey?
23 Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D717, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D717 is admitted.
1 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 1D2220, please.
2 Q. [Interpretation] We have before us a rather short document. It
3 is a document of the Main Staff dated the 21st of March, 1995, signed by
4 General Milovanovic.
5 It says -- actually, military post codes 7111 and 7598 are being
6 provided with information to the effect that the medical evacuation from
7 Srebrenica to Sarajevo is being authorised on the 22nd of March, 1995.
8 First of all, at that time, were you at the Main Staff?
9 A. Yes. At that time, I was at the Main Staff.
10 Q. Do you recall whether medical evacuations were allowed from the
11 area of Srebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde?
12 A. Medical evacuations were allowed, and they were not subjected to
13 the 48-hour notification in advance. They were carried out in two ways:
14 Either by land or by helicopter.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. LUKIC: We will tender this document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D718, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D718 is admitted.
20 MR. LUKIC: If we can have 65 ter number 24650, please.
21 Q. [Interpretation] We see another short document here. The date is
22 the 4th of February, 1995. It's a document of the Main Staff of the Army
23 of Republika Srpska. It was signed by Colonel Milivoj Miletic, and the
24 UNPROFOR command in Sarajevo is being informed that medical evacuation
25 from Gorazde has been allowed.
1 At the time, were you a member of the Main Staff?
2 A. Yes, I was a member of the Main Staff at the time. And if you
3 allow me, just one correction. It is not Milivoj Miletic, it is
4 Radivoje Miletic.
5 Q. I'm sorry if I misspoke. Were you aware of such evacuations?
6 A. I was aware of such evacuations and the position that this had to
7 be resolved urgently. It had priority in relation to other matters
8 related to convoys.
9 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document as well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D719, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D719 is admitted.
13 MR. LUKIC: We would ask now for 65 ter number 24689.
14 Q. [Interpretation] You've already mentioned that evacuations took
15 place by helicopter as well. We see a document here dated the
16 13th of February, 1995. It was signed by General Milovanovic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, we only see a B/C/S version on our
18 screen. Is an English translation uploaded? There seems to be no
19 English translation.
20 MR. LUKIC: Hmm. I'm not aware that English translation is
21 missing, but since it's short document, I'll just read one sentence
22 and --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I add one thing. Is there a dispute
24 about - now and then, I'm not talking about the frequency - that medical
25 evacuations took place?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: The evidence suggests now and then medical
2 evacuations did take place.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So, therefore, the issue is then whether they
4 responded to the needs or whether the frequency was such that it could be
5 considered either co-operative or obstructive rather than whether
6 individual incidents of medical evacuation took place.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: In this time-period that's correct. As we get
8 into, as you know, closer to the Srebrenica time-period specifics are
9 more relevant.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Lukic, therefore what you're establishing now in the various
12 documents, there seems to be no dispute about that.
13 MR. LUKIC: Then I'll just tender this one for MFI, to be MFI'd,
14 and I will move on from this topic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D720, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: D720 is marked for identification.
18 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Kralj, in relation to what Judge Orie said, were you aware of
20 any medical evacuations being refused? Do you know of any such example?
21 A. I'm not aware of any medical evacuations being refused.
22 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 1D2223 on our screens, please.
23 Q. [Interpretation] We have a document of the command of the
24 Drina Corps here, and the date is the 2nd of May, 1994. This is a list
25 of goods delivered by humanitarian organisations to the Muslims via the
1 territory of Republika Srpska. On the right-hand side, it says
2 April 1994, above that text that I just read out. So it says that seven
3 convoys went to Srebrenica in that period of time. Seven convoys of the
4 Swedish team with 98 trucks of construction material and equipment for
5 prefabricated buildings.
6 In the table, we see the type of goods involved, and we see what
7 was sent to which zone. For example, flour: 1.769 tonnes were delivered
8 to Tuzla; Srebrenica, 229 tonnes; Sarajevo, 63 tonnes; Zepa, 92 tonnes.
9 Were you aware of this, that such lists were being made of goods
10 delivered, delivered in the enclaves?
11 A. At the time that you are referring to, I was at the 1st Krajina
12 Corps. We did keep records there, cumulative records, and when I came to
13 the Main Staff, then I saw that in the documentation that was kept by
14 Colonel Milos Djurdjic, there were such lists too. According to the
15 towns where humanitarian aid had been delivered. Over a longer period of
17 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
18 Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Given the importance, I just wanted to note we
20 have a typo on the year in English.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the left top corner, it says 1995, where
22 the original says 1994, whereas to the right it says April 1994.
23 Perhaps if would be good -- it's not really a translation issue
24 but rather a transcription issue. Therefore, if a -- if a version which
25 exclusively contains this correction could be uploaded, that would be
1 preferable. I don't think we have to submit it entirely again to CLSS.
2 It's a transcription issue rather than anything else. And perhaps it is
3 a document which was -- one second, please.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: So it's just the translation, the English version
6 which would then reflect that the original says 1994, the left top
8 MR. LUKIC: Could we then MFI it before it's corrected --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is such a little chance that I would
10 rather if you inform the Chamber or if Mr. -- I don't know where the
11 document comes from. Is it -- is it the translation prepared by CLSS?
12 Is it prepared through the Prosecution or at the request of the Defence?
13 But the party which is most adequate to provide a revised version
14 is invited to report to the Chamber once it's there so that we'll allow
15 the Registrar to attach the new English version to the original.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: We'll take care of that. I think it's our
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear from you, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. LUKIC: We'll tender the document for the admission,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I would -- under the present circumstance
22 I would not oppose admission. There's -- especially it's the original,
23 of course, which is the core of the evidence.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now that Mr. McCloskey raised the question of
25 precision, I see that on the original we've got on the left side
1 2nd of May, 1994. On the right side, April 1994. I'm not quite sure
2 whether there is any dispute about the month and the exact date, but in
3 light of the requirement for precision, I just want to make the parties
4 aware of that.
5 MR. LUKIC: I think that the period that was processed was
6 April 1994. That's why the document is from the 2nd of May, the
7 beginning of the next month. So the whole April is accounted for.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That makes sense. If the Prosecution agrees. But
9 if you do not agree, the original says that and we've heard how Mr. Lukic
10 understands the document, that on the 2nd of May, a document was produced
11 covering the month of April and -- 98 trucks of construction material,
12 et cetera, as -- and 23 trucks for Gorazde. So we'll -- that's how you
13 understand the document.
14 Mr. Registrar, the number would be?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D721, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: D721 is admitted.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. Now I would ask for 1D2231, please.
19 Q. [Interpretation] The previous document was a document of the
20 Army of Republika Srpska. Now this document is from the Army of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The 31st of March, 1995, and it's type signed, chief
22 of defence department, Professor Suljo Hasanovic. And the subject is
23 recording donations.
24 In the text, it says:
25 "We hereby send you an overview of the quantities of food,
1 materiel, and technical equipment, and fuel issued to military units in
2 our area for March 1995 ..."
3 And then the actual quantities are listed.
4 Next paragraph:
5 "We add that the above quantities were allotted from a
6 consignment of humanitarian aid which arrived in this area through the
7 UNHCR and this is the only source of supply."
8 Mr. Kralj, did you know, did you have any intelligence about the
9 Muslim side taking humanitarian aid that was meant to be used by
10 civilians and that they are distributing it to their own armed forces?
11 A. Colonel Milos Djurdjic was informed about humanitarian aid. Some
12 of it was allocated to the army. It was on its way to Srebrenica. He
13 informed me about that, so I knew that some of the humanitarian aid
14 headed not only for that enclave but for others as well was distributed
15 to the military.
16 MR. LUKIC: I see it's a break time, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It is.
18 Mr. Kralj, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see
19 you back. You may follow the usher.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, are you on schedule?
22 MR. LUKIC: I hope so.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's what we do as well. But we'd like to receive
24 the information relevant to see whether our hope will become true.
25 MR. LUKIC: I just have to check the time with Mr. Ram as well.
1 But I think I'm on track.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You're on track. I think yesterday you had close to
3 45 minutes. Today you used a little bit less than one hour at this
4 moment, and you are scheduled for two hours.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that, overall, you're coming close to one and
7 a half hour.
8 MR. LUKIC: I'm on track then.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then you're on track. So that means you need
10 another half an hour or a little bit plus.
11 We'll resume at ten minutes to 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
14 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, before the witness is with us, I
15 would -- I forgot to tender 1D2231.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D722, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D722 is admitted.
19 MR. LUKIC: And the next document on our screens, we should have
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Kralj, we have a new document in front of us. The document
24 was issued by the BiH army. Actually, it was issued by the Defence
25 Secretariat on the 5th of June, 1995. Since it was issued on the
1 5th of June, 1995, we see that in the third paragraph it says that they
2 processed what they received in the month of May 1995. There's a
3 reference to food, materiel, technical equipment, and fuel. Those were
4 issued to military units in the region of Tuzla.
5 It also says here in the penultimate paragraph -- it's not very
6 legible in B/C/S, unfortunately.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you said "technical equipment." Could
8 you just guide us.
9 MR. LUKIC: It's the first -- it's the first row in English,
10 "technical," the last word in first line, and then "equipment" goes in
11 the second line.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And in the list, where do we find technical
13 equipment in the list?
14 MR. LUKIC: I cannot find it in the list either, Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
16 MR. LUKIC: -- but it is mentioned in the first sentence. What
17 they meant, I don't know. But obviously it was only food enumerated
18 further on.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, and, of course, oil, which is not food.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, oil as --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: -- a fuel, yeah.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes, but perhaps we should have a closer look
24 at it, sometimes it is pasting and copying the part of the text --
25 MR. LUKIC: I read it. So I couldn't read anything else then
1 it's --
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, but of course, you say to the witness that
3 it ... yes, you referred to the --
4 MR. LUKIC: First sentence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: What they received and you included technical
6 equipment and it's announced that there was technical equipment which is
7 not in any way then substantiated in what follows. But --
8 MR. LUKIC: Probably it was some kind of form on their side --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could be --
10 MR. LUKIC: -- where they always include the same.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seems to be no disagreement as how to
12 understand. It was announced but it's not specified in any way.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. LUKIC: I will read in English since I cannot read B/C/S
15 version. It's very hard. We had to enlarge it very much to be able to
16 read it, so the witness can actually have translated back.
17 The last -- the second-last paragraph says:
18 "We wish to note that the above quantities have been separated
19 out of the humanitarian aid contingent which arrived in the area through
20 UNHCR, while some of the food was obtained from the Dutch battalion."
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, we have already discussed your
22 knowledge about the food that UNHCR delivered to civilians, and some of
23 it ended up with soldiers as well. Did you know that the Dutch battalion
24 also supplied the BiH army with food?
25 A. The Department for Civilian Affairs, i.e., Colonel Djurdjic, was
1 told that the Dutch battalion did supply the units of the 28th Division
2 of the BiH army which were deployed in Srebrenica with food and sometimes
3 with fuel as well.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: I would tender this document into evidence as well.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D723, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D723 is admitted.
9 MR. LUKIC: Next document on our screen, we should have 1D2226.
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, this is a document issued by the
11 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska on the 2nd of July, 1994. It
12 says here that the number of Military Observer teams and other
13 specialised teams is increasing by the day, and the movement of convoys
14 and teams from the UNPROFOR command for the former BH is badly planned.
15 The decision-making responsibilities in the UN command tend to overlap.
16 In your work, did you come across problems due to the lack of
17 efficiency in UNPROFOR command, and did that result in problems with
18 convoy transports?
19 A. UNPROFOR was composed of several and various national
20 contingents. As a result, UNPROFOR had problems in terms of commanding
21 those contingents because some commanders obeyed their own national
22 bodies or representatives of the countries they came from, and that did
23 result in certain tensions and problems. Some of them even tried to
24 carry out some intelligence work for their own countries. This was
25 particularly pronounced among -- among Military Observers who frequently
1 moved around without any purpose across the territory of
2 Republika Srpska, most commonly in the direction of Srebrenica, Zepa and
3 Gorazde enclaves.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. LUKIC: I would tender this document, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D724, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D724 is admitted into evidence.
9 Mr. Lukic, returning to the previous document and the issues I
10 raised, is there any chance that an abbreviation is used in the original
11 MTS which stands for a category rather than a description of -- of
12 specific goods? MTS, I do understand, is a general --
13 MR. LUKIC: It is --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- abbreviation for --
15 MR. LUKIC: That's how I understand it as well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- categories of goods and that could --
17 MR. LUKIC: But it's technical goods, MTS.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you only provide food, the food would
19 still be MTS because it is part of that conglomerate which is usually
20 referred to as MTS which, by the way, also could -- materiel and
21 technical goods.
22 MR. LUKIC: I think it is more military term. Maybe we could use
23 presence of the witness --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I just noticed that and that indeed it is very
25 difficult to read, but it seems that MTS is -- I even see "Brane MTS,"
1 the word before that, in the original. I'm -- I'm talking about the
2 previous document.
3 Please proceed. I just wanted to -- to see whether we can get
4 further clarification as to -- or further explanation as to why the one
5 term is used and why, in the specification, we do not find anything else
6 than oil and food.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Kralj, talking about terminology, could MTS also encompass
10 food, foodstuffs?
11 A. No. Those are two totally separate categories. Food is part of
12 headquarter -- headmaster and MTS encompasses everything including
13 technical equipment, generators, vehicles, weapons, and ammunition. This
14 is a military term, a very general military term, and describes technical
15 equipment of military purpose.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think, Your Honour, that "headmaster" is
18 probably better translated as "quartermaster."
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of your suggestion. You know, Mr. McCloskey,
22 that the usual way of dealing with any translation issue is to ask our
23 interpreters to verify the accuracy and not to give them already the
24 better translation. That's -- but I leave it to that for the time being.
25 There seems to be no great confusion about the matter, but I'm very much
1 attached to the proper procedure in dealing with translation issues.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. Then we need the next
4 document, 1D2229, please.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, what we have before us is a document
6 issued by the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska on 30th November
8 First of all, in the 1st Corps, did you receive this document and
9 is this visible in the document itself?
10 A. This document shows that it was sent to the commander himself,
11 which is not commonplace. Where you see that it says the command of
12 1 KK, that's the command of the 1st Krajina Corps.
13 Q. On the last page, we see the signature of Lieutenant-General
14 Ratko Mladic.
15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Since we have now inspected this, let
16 us go back to the first page, please.
17 Q. On line 1, it says -- the exact date is blurred. We don't know
18 when that happened. However, the report was drafted on the 30th of
19 November and it says:
20 "In November 1992, an unannounced UNPROFOR convoy arrived,
21 including 19 vehicles ..."
22 It says further on, line 8 in B/C/S, line 6 in English:
23 "The citizens of Bratunac prevented the passage of the convoy to
24 Srebrenica ..."
25 After that, the convoy was sent to Bajina Basta from where it
1 attempted to go to Srebrenica through Skelani. After that, it says that:
2 "Citizens of Bajina Basta, Skelani and other places in the
3 vicinity participated in preventing the passage of the humanitarian aid
5 Do you know that such spontaneous reactions of citizens towards
6 UNPROFOR convoys did happen, especially at the very beginning?
7 A. Your Honour, it was a period of intense activities. And the
8 citizens were still not properly informed about the role of UNPROFOR, and
9 every time an armed unit entered with equipment, weapons and ammunition,
10 it was perceived as international assistance to Muslims, and they
11 protested vehemently. So, at first, it was a huge problem. But then
12 when the system was well established, owing to political bodies and the
13 highest political leadership of Republika Srpska, some order was
14 installed into letting UNPROFOR vehicles enter the enclaves and stay in
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And now can we see the following page
17 in B/C/S. And we should stay on the same page in English, please.
18 Q. At the top of the page, at the beginning of that paragraph which
19 is the third paragraph in the English version on page 1, it says:
20 "Through the engagement of the Republika Srpska Army Main Staff
21 and the Drina Corps, as well as the influence of the president of the
22 Presidency, Mr. Radovan Karadzic, and the authorities, the citizens of
23 the aforementioned places understood the situation, and after inspection,
24 the convoy passed and arrived in Srebrenica unimpeded."
25 Along your lines of command, what were you told? Were you told
1 to allow the passage of convoys that were approved and that allowed
2 inspection or to obstruct their passage?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Leading.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
5 MR. LUKIC: I put a two-folded question, I mean, whether you were
6 instructed this or something opposite.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: The question was what were you instructed
8 not give him two -- only two choices.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. LUKIC: I could rephrase.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please rephrase your question, Mr. ...
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You heard the question, Mr. Kralj, but let's drop what I asked
14 you. I will not insist on an answer at all.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: If may I just ask you, Mr. Lukic, is page 28, from
16 line 4 to 8 -- to 7, don't they answer your question?
17 MR. LUKIC: He, actually, yes, anticipated my --
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: So your question is answered.
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, perhaps for our understanding of this
21 document, I take it that for a proper understanding it's important to
22 know what the ethnicity was, what the dominant ethnicity was, of the
23 populations in -- in Bratunac, Bajina Basta, and -- isn't it? In order
24 to properly understand.
25 MR. LUKIC: Absolutely, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Having read this document, Witness, could you tell
2 us whether this, as it was qualified by Mr. Lukic as -- as a spontaneous
3 protest against letting through the convoys by the local population, was
4 that a Serb protest?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was a protest of the
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That may be obvious for those involved, but
8 it's clear hereby.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just tender this
11 document at this point.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we just see again whose name is at the
13 bottom so we understand that.
14 MR. LUKIC: It was shown it was General Ratko Mladic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was shown to the witness.
16 Then in the absence of any objections, Mr. Registrar, the number
17 would be?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D725, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D725 is admitted into evidence.
20 Witness, the document also talks about the position taken by
21 Mr. Izetbegovic in opposing letting the convoys through and the purposes
22 for that position, at least the aim he apparently wanted to achieve. Do
23 you know where that information comes from? Do you have details about
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The objective of Alija Izetbegovic
1 was to create confusion and to portray --
2 JUDGE ORIE: That was not my question. My question was: What is
3 the source for this information as we find it here in this document?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The source is always the
5 intelligence organs of Republika Srpska.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But do you know what they observed to draw this
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time there were attempts to
9 reach agreement, to talk, but Alija always wanted to blame the Serb side
10 as much as possible. So anything that could have caused -- anything that
11 would work against the army or the authorities.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's a rather general statement. What I was
13 seeking, whether had you any specific information such as the leadership
14 on that day had a telephone conversation with, or whatever. But detailed
15 information which is at the source of this conclusion --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any specific
17 information about this.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. At the time you were in the 1st Corps, November 1992; right?
22 A. That's right.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us look at 1D2232.
24 Q. This is a document of the Main Staff. The name of
25 General Ratko Mladic is type-signed. And it says that he orders, in
1 paragraph 1:
2 "Enable unhindered passage and protection of consignments,
3 equipment and personnel providing aid intended for the civilian
4 population of the opposing side."
5 Paragraph 4 states:
6 "Ensure that all units and the entire army personnel are
7 acquainted with this order and complying with it."
8 Were you informed about this order in May 1993?
9 A. I was informed about this order, and from the commander
10 personally, we received an order to provide information within the scope
11 of our own work to our personnel who were involved in control. And
12 paragraph 4 shows that it is necessary to ensure that all units, not only
13 at corps level but lower-ranking units as well. The entire personnel of
14 the army should be familiarized with this order and that they should
15 comply with it. It is signed by General Ratko Mladic.
16 MR. LUKIC: We would tender this document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D726, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: D726 is admitted into evidence.
20 I have one question for you, Mr. Kralj. This document, in giving
21 four instructions of a rather general nature, were they helpful in
22 performing your tasks or in performing the tasks by the subordinate
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if a document is
25 signed by General Mladic, the soldiers of the units would take that as
1 the gospel. This was carried out to the letter, and there was no
2 question about that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: They would strictly abide by that, if I understand
4 you well.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could I ask you, do you know the difference
7 between Protocol I and Protocol II to the Geneva Conventions? What is
8 Protocol I mainly dealing with and what is Protocol II mainly dealing
9 with? Could you explain that? Because if you want to abide -- strictly
10 abide by that, that at least assumes some understanding of what you are
11 instructed to do.
12 Could you tell us what the main purpose of Protocol I and the
13 main purpose of Protocol II is?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As a matter of fact, we organised
15 training about Protocol I and Protocol II in the corps units. Right now,
16 I could not -- it's not clear to me. I do not find the difference
17 between the two to be clear to me. Although I did deal with it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Where did you deal with it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It pertained to POWs, the civilian
20 population ... as a matter of fact, I attended a course in San Marino
21 [Realtime transcript read in error "some marina"] for 15 days about
22 international law of war. But I seem to be getting senile, a bit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I wouldn't confirm that immediately,
24 Mr. Kralj, but I leave it to that.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If we can shortly see
2 65 ter 24847, please.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, on the roads of Republika Srpska,
4 during the course of one day, would there usually be one convoy or
5 several convoys on the road?
6 A. During the course of one day on the roads of Republika Srpska,
7 there would always be several convoys. And not only convoys but also
8 individual vehicles. So that movement, among other things, made regular
9 traffic more difficult.
10 Q. We see 16 convoys here, Sarajevo-Kiseljak for the most part, but
11 9 is Kiseljak-Srebrenica and then 11 is Sarajevo-Zepa. All of that
12 envisaged for the 30th of March, 1995. At the time you were in the
13 Main Staff. Is it customary to have General Milovanovic's signature on
14 such documents as well?
15 A. It is customary that General Milovanovic would sign documents
16 with this kind of content, especially when they are being sent to the
17 UNPROFOR command.
18 Q. From your experience, how many trucks would there be in a single
19 convoy, on average?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Time-frame.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, do you have any time --
22 MR. LUKIC: Yeah, we are talking about 1995, I would say -- in
23 regard of this document. And the gentleman was in the Main Staff at that
24 time, so I --
25 Q. In March 1995, how many trucks you could expect in -- in one
2 A. About ten trucks. On average.
3 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. LUKIC: I would tender this document, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: How many pages? Can we get an idea? I think
7 this ask a very lengthy document.
8 MR. LUKIC: There are other pages, but every single convoy is
9 only explained what it includes. We can go through every single page if
10 you want.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. I don't suggest that. But I suggest before
12 it's authenticated into evidence, there should be at least something
13 besides the cover page discussed.
14 MR. LUKIC: Let's have the next page on our screens. And first,
15 if we can notice number 1. Okay. Number 1 from that list is actually
16 that same number we can find on this page. So the convoy number
17 30-401/03 ...
18 JUDGE ORIE: There's document, page 3 in the English, about --
19 with the same number, 401/03.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: It would save time if he discussed briefly this
21 one page. I wouldn't have to go back to it, and I think it would lay the
22 proper foundation.
23 MR. LUKIC: Okay. Here, we have the same number in the first
24 line and --
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Do we have the same documents in both English and
1 Serbian? It doesn't look like they are the same.
2 MR. LUKIC: It's just cover page in English. Actually, it is the
3 same. The same number. Only it's --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, but it's a convoy --
5 MR. LUKIC: Everything is not translated.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- for a person rather than for any delivery of
7 goods, so if the -- if your focus is on convoys for delivery of goods,
8 then you would find on page 3 in the English version which corresponds
9 with -- I think -- I don't know why -- I'm wondering, as a matter of
10 fact, whether the pages do correspond at all, but let's have a look.
11 No, apparently what appears is not corresponding, because the one
12 first follow-up page in B/C/S gives a lot of -- gives a lot of names,
13 et cetera, and this may be a -- but certainly is not the same is what
14 immediately follows in the English translation.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Or at least it's not a -- it could be an
17 incomplete -- it's an incomplete translation, I see that, yes.
18 MR. LUKIC: Incomplete, yes, something was skipped.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there's a lot skipped. And it is not about
20 the -- the purpose of the journey is that someone is to attend a meeting
21 with a commander of UNPROFOR BH command.
22 Now if we're focussing on delivery of goods, then this may not be
23 a very helpful example, Mr. Lukic, if that's your purpose. Of course, I
24 do not know.
25 MR. LUKIC: Let's see --
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: The Prosecution, for authentication, would be
2 fine if we just focussed a bit -- just on the process which --
3 MR. LUKIC: I like to try with the next document, maybe it is
4 translated. We would call 24858, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You mean with the next document, not the next convoy
6 or --
7 MR. LUKIC: Next document. Did I say "convoy"? Sorry, it's
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, just --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're abandoning this document, not tendering it.
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm not tendering it since some confusion arose. We
12 have good backup with this one. So --
13 Q. [Interpretation] We have a document of the Main Staff of the Army
14 of Republika Srpska here. The date is the 19th of April, 1995. It is
15 sent to the UNPROFOR command by Colonel Miletic. It has to do with
16 17 convoys. The first convoy has the following number: 20-271/04 from
17 Sarajevo to Kiseljak.
18 MR. LUKIC: Let's use number 2, since it's to Zepa. So the
19 second -- number 2 is number 20-288/04. So it's from Sarajevo to Zepa.
20 And if we can have the third page in B/C/S.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps page 5 in the English seems to
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. We can see the same number, 20-288/04, 18 April 1995. Under 1,
25 it is requested that a Ukrainian battalion could travel from Sarajevo to
1 Zepa. Under 2, purpose of the convoy, food supply. And under 6, we can
2 see the contents or the cargo of the convoy en route to Zepa, personal
3 equipment and weapons. And there's also a list of the foodstuffs that
4 was transported in the convoy.
5 Under 7, it says that the convoy leader would be in possession of
6 cargo specifications and that written approval can be sent to the
7 Military Observers at Pale. This was signed by the chief of the
8 BH command, Major-General Nicolai.
9 And then in handwriting it says:
10 Reduce coffee to 15 kilos and salt to 50 kilos and sugar to
11 150 kilos. No other reductions were requested.
12 Do you know what UNPROFOR had in Pale?
13 A. UNPROFOR had its liaison office manned by Military Observers and
14 interpreters. Through them, it faxed its requests from that office to
15 the sector for civilian affairs in the Main Staff. Then returned
16 information went also by fax from the Main Staff to that office at Pale.
17 Q. There is another convoy, that one to Gorazde and another one to
18 Sarajevo. And under 12, from Kiseljak to Gorazde. Under 13, from
19 Kiseljak to Gorazde. Then from Srebrenica to Banja Koviljaca several
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to try to simplify this. Could -- to
22 properly authenticate this document and to save some time so I don't have
23 to, the original Serbian has some handwriting on it and some and -- and
24 initials. If we could have the witness explain what that is, then you'll
25 understand what this document is about.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you accommodate Mr. -- otherwise --
2 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Kralj, at the very top of the page, it says "yes" in Cyrillic
4 and it is encircled. Next to it is an initial, and then in brackets it
5 says -- it says "restriction."
6 Do you recognise the handwriting? Do you know who approved those
7 convoys and how that was done?
8 A. This is the handwriting and initial of General Mladic. At the
9 top of the document where it says "yes," there is an initial next to the
10 encircled word.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Whose initial did you say this was?
14 A. General Mladic's. His initial.
15 Q. Very well.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I note this document and as we see
18 in the English, there's a -- the forward brackets with a "probably"
19 written. That is part -- that is a speculation, I believe, by the
20 translator which should not be part of this document. And I don't think
21 the Defence did that. I think this is probably a Prosecution document.
22 But that is not meant to -- it really shouldn't be there.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you then take care that you have a
24 revised version. And, of course, this is different from what we dealt
25 with recently because this has got nothing to do with a translation in
1 the context of the text, and that's what we talked about earlier,
2 Mr. Lukic, you'll certainly remember. But this is an exegesis of whose
3 initial that is, and if it would be an M, then there's still a lot of
4 persons in this world whose name starts with an M, and that therefore it
5 goes beyond what, as far as matters stand now, I consider to be within
6 the realm of the CLSS.
7 Please proceed, Mr. --
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you do so, Mr. Lukic, without adding to
9 your problems, I see that the English says convoy number 20-291. The
10 Serbian one says 288. 20-288. Is there anything there that could be
12 MR. LUKIC: I see the same numbers, Your Honour, 20- ...
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay. What was there before --
14 MR. LUKIC: It was changed, yeah.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: Okay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, I have only one more document. I would tender
18 this one.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D727, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D727 is admitted.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. And if we just can see
23 1D2228, and that will be the last document we'll be using with this
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kralj, the command of the 1st plpbr sent
1 this to the command of the Drina Corps. The signature is that of the
2 commander, Major Rajko Kusic. This is a regular combat report.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the signature, Mr. --
4 MR. LUKIC: Can we, yeah, see the bottom part of B/C/S. It's
5 type written, commander Major Rajko Kusic.
6 [Interpretation] Let's go back to the first page. We are
7 interested in bullet point 3 which is on page 1, both in English -- and
8 in B/C/S it is on the second page.
9 Q. It says here:
10 "Ukrainian convoy number 07-012/07 comprising three vehicles from
11 Sarajevo to Zepa passed through the check-point in Rogatica. A UNHCR
12 convoy from Karakaj to Zepa, which arrived at the check-point yesterday,
13 is still in Rogatica undergoing a detailed search since ammunition for
14 small arms was found in the convoy yesterday."
15 Let me ask you this: The fact that ammunition or weapons were
16 found, did that slow down the movement of the convoys which followed in
17 the days after such discovery?
18 A. The discovery of ammunition in convoys did, in a certain way,
19 increase and intensify the control at check-points. It did not influence
20 the passage of the convoys themselves. The only thing that happened was
21 that people at the check-points were more diligent in trying to discover
22 hidden places where ammunition and weapons could be found.
23 MR. LUKIC: We would just tender this document --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 MR. LUKIC: -- and that concludes our direct examination of this
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D728, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D728 is admitted into evidence.
4 Witness, can you tell us, having looked at this document a second
5 ago, could you tell us anything about the quantity of ammunition that was
6 found in this convoy?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A small quantity of ammunition.
8 Several crates of small-arms ammunition.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For such small quantities, was a complaint
10 lodged at the UNHCR?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a protest was indeed lodged
12 with the UNHCR.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And specifically also in relation to this convoy?
14 Is that ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, specifically in relation to
16 this convoy, a protest note was lodged with the UNHCR. Political bodies
17 were not at all happy with the fact that ammunition turned up in those
18 convoys, and especially the permanent state committee on co-operation
19 with international organisations that was located in Pale.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Addressing both parties, if that complaint
21 would be available, and if any response - if there's any - by the UNHCR
22 would be available, then it might assist the Chamber in its assessment in
23 evaluation of this piece of evidence. I leave it to that for the time
25 Mr. McCloskey, I think we would better start with the
1 cross-examination after our break.
2 Witness, we'll take a break first. And we'd like to see you
3 back, Mr. Kralj, in 20 minutes from now.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at ten minutes past 12.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.10 p.m.
8 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, may I interrupt before Mr. McCloskey
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, one second, please. Do we need -- well,
11 if the witness arrives, we'll see what happens.
12 MR. LUKIC: I want to do this before the witness arrives.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
14 MR. LUKIC: It's intervention regarding the transcript.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: On page 33, line 12, it was recorded -- recorded: "I
17 attended a course in some marina ..." The witness said "San Marino," in
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. LUKIC: So if you want, you can check it with him.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. LUKIC: And one more thing. With the help of Ms. Stewart,
23 our English translation of the D720, MFI, is uploaded. So I can give you
24 the doc number.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please provide that document number.
1 MR. LUKIC: It's doc ID 1D170252.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Registrar hereby is invited to attach that
3 and is given permission to attach that to D720 MFI.
4 Any objection against admission, Mr. McCloskey? Not. D720 is
5 admitted into evidence.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
9 Witness, you'll be cross-examined now by Mr. McCloskey. But
10 before we start that, I asked you a question about Protocol I and
11 Protocol II and you said you followed courses on international law of
12 warfare. A similar question as before about Protocol I and Protocol II.
13 Could you explain to me more or less what subject matter is mainly dealt
14 with in the -- in the Convention on the Laws and Customs of War on Land
15 and the Geneva Conventions?
16 Could you tell me what the difference in subject matter is
17 between those two? Because both are mentioned in the order by
18 General Mladic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The convention deals with the way
20 wars are waged. Whereas the protocols provide specific details as to how
21 civilians should be treated, as well as prisoners of war, civilian
22 facilities, the use of military force in certain types of military
23 activities, and so on and so forth. It says there that the military
24 force used should not be exaggerated.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you say "the convention deals with." I
1 think I referred to two different conventions. On the one hand side, the
2 Convention on Laws and Customs and War on Land and, on the other hand,
3 the Geneva Conventions. When you referred to "the convention," which
4 convention or conventions did you have on mind?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The convention on land war.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now as far as the Geneva Conventions are
7 concerned, are they also dealing with similar matters and then the
8 protocols dealing with details of how to treat civilians and prisoners of
9 war, or do the Geneva Conventions deal with other matters?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They deal with other matters as
11 well, such as the obligations of the state signatories of the convention.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's true for every convention, isn't it? If
13 you conclude a convention, it always deals with what you are obliged to
14 do under that convention. Do you have any further details about the
15 Geneva Conventions compared to, on the one hand, Protocol I and
16 Protocol II and, on the other hand, the convention on the -- on the
17 warfare, land warfare?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Geneva Conventions deal with the
19 customs of war.
20 JUDGE ORIE: They deal with the customs of war.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the laws of war.
22 JUDGE ORIE: When did you retire from your military positions?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2002.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
25 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey. Mr. McCloskey is
1 counsel for the Prosecution, and you'll find him to your right.
2 Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel Kralj.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Now, is it -- it's true, is it not, that in 2008 you came here as
8 a Defence witness and testified in the case of General Miletic, who was
9 on trial with General Gvero and others?
10 A. Yes, that's true.
11 Q. And you also came here as a Defence witness for General Tolimir
12 and testified in his trial in 2012?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. And were you aware that both those indictments generally involved
15 Srebrenica and Zepa allegations?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And most recently you testified as a Defence witness in the trial
18 against President Karadzic here.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And we understand from your statement and what has already been
21 said that you took formal training in English. Do you still read English
22 and speak it fluently?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And as is perfectly appropriate, are you taking time to actually
25 read what you are seeing in front of you on the -- on the screen?
1 A. I don't have enough time to read both. I read the Serbian.
2 Q. I'm talking about the transcript that you would see that is only
3 in English as it's going in front of you.
4 A. I can read it and understand it.
5 Q. And, yes, and I understand -- and there's nothing wrong with
6 reading it. I'm just trying to understand if you, in fact, are reading
7 the questions as they come out in English or you're just listening, which
8 is fine.
9 A. I listen.
10 Q. Okay. That's --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you also read, that was the question.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I read in Serbian.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But there's no Serbian transcript on your screen, is
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, okay, I'm reading on the
16 left-hand screen. I had misspoken. I meant the two documents on the
17 right-hand side screen.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we saw you were looking from a short distance
19 at your right-hand screen. I do understand that on the right-hand screen
20 the documents shown to you are to be found; whereas on the left screen
21 you have the transcript, in English?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the left-hand side, I see the
23 transcript, and I've been following the cursor. Once the typing stops,
24 then I start speaking.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's highly appreciated. Especially by our
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
4 Q. Now not long ago, Mr. Lukic showed you an order that was sent out
5 by General Mladic and we saw his name on it, and you responded on
6 page 32, lines 15 through 18, basically saying that this order would be
7 considered gospel by the VRS troops and that they would follow it.
8 Would the same be true of oral orders issued by General Mladic to
9 his troops? Would those orders be considered gospel and would they
10 follow it?
11 A. The Army of Republika Srpska operates on the principle of
12 subordination. And orders of superior officers, especially
13 General Mladic, his orders were strictly adhered to and carried out.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, now you have -- the real issue raised by
15 Mr. McCloskey was whether what you said about written orders, whether the
16 same would be true for oral orders. Could you specifically answer that
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no difference between a
19 written order and an oral order. An order is an order.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. And we saw on a document that was just on the screen, it was one
23 of those UNPROFOR requests for convoy passages, and we saw on the
24 Serbian, you identified General Mladic's initial as saying "yes."
25 Was that -- did that mean to approve that particular convoy
1 document that we saw?
2 A. That meant that he was made aware of this document and that he
3 approves that.
4 Q. And for UNPROFOR requests, was General Mladic's final word final,
5 or did this document go somewhere else for more approvals?
6 A. As regards UNPROFOR, General Mladic's word was final.
7 Q. And you have described the procedure in your statement, and I
8 won't go through that. But I will summarise briefly in that
9 General Mladic played a critical role in that entire process, did he not?
10 And I'm talking about UNPROFOR requests.
11 A. From time to time, he would take a look at certain documents and
12 give his approval. It wasn't compulsory for all documents to be
13 submitted, especially if he was not there physically.
14 Q. Now, let's go to your statement, which is D712, and I'd like to
15 take you to what should be page 10 in the English. It's paragraph 25.
16 And in looking at this first paragraph, we see:
17 "Towards the end of 1994, I was transferred to the Main Staff."
18 Was that on the 8th of November, 1994?
19 A. That's a bit before the 8th of November, 1994, because that day
20 is my Patron Saint's Day. I think it was on the 4th.
21 Q. The 4th of November, 1994; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. It goes on to say that:
24 "I was assigned to interpret from English to Serbian in the same
25 sector as General Milos Djurdjic, who was the chief of the Department for
1 Co-operation with international military forces and I should think also
2 with humanitarian and certain other international organisations."
3 So we hear you saying that: "I should think that he was also
4 with humanitarian and certain other international organisations."
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go to 65 ter 31499. And it should be
6 page, let's say, 24 in e-court. And if we could go to the bottom of the
7 page. I'm sorry, this should be 26 in e-court.
8 Q. And you'll see that Mr. Vanderpuye has asked you a question and
9 you must be looking at one of the convoy requests. And he says:
10 "And we can see here the word 'ne' in a circle with a question
11 mark and then crossed out. And I am sure you don't have a specific" -
12 then let's go to the next page - "recollection of this document because
13 it's been a while, but next to the circle with a crossed out, the 'ne'
14 appears to be a 'da' in Cyrillic [sic]."
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: What I'd like to do is go to page 25 in the -- in
16 the e-court. And could we go to the page before that so I can get the
17 question. I apologise, Your Honour.
18 Q. The question is:
19 "Okay, Colonel Djurdjic, your boss, also participated in this" -
20 and then let's go to the next page - "process; right?
21 And your answer is:
22 "The colonel was the most competent person in the chain. Not the
23 chain, really, but he had the best expert knowledge of all in the
24 Main Staff when it came to humanitarian aid and UNPROFOR convoys. He
25 also held the greatest responsibility."
1 Do you stand by that answer that you gave to Mr. Vanderpuye in
2 the Tolimir case?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So why in your statement did you make this comment:
5 "... and I should think also with humanitarian and certain other
6 international organisations"?
7 A. Since we compiled this statement with the lawyer, an effort was
8 made to keep it shorter, the statement, and probably this was an
9 omission. I would say and I would like to add with humanitarian
10 organisations as well. Maybe it's just a mistake in the document.
11 Q. Did you read your statement after you made it to the Defence?
12 A. I did read it, I signed it, and there's no major difference
13 there. We did that kind of work too, with humanitarian organisations.
14 Q. Now, you've stated that while you were liaison officer for the
15 1st Krajina Corps, that the UN people that were moving in the area were
16 doing recon on the area. You also mentioned that you thought they were
17 doing recon for future bombing runs. And can you tell me, did you, as
18 the chief liaison officer at the 1st Krajina Corps and the liaison
19 officers that you had been dealing with the brigade, did you also keep
20 track of the movement of those UN personnel and report back intelligence
21 information about their movements or about any other interesting
22 information to your commanders or to your intelligence officers?
23 A. No. We provided our information to our immediate superior.
24 Usually we were the ones who received from the intelligence service the
25 information that our check-points had missed, if I can put it that way,
1 without us noticing, that there were certain activities that these
2 persons were carrying out or that there was something in relation to the
3 equipment that they were carrying. So we were warned about that.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the
5 witness due to background noise. Could all unnecessary microphones
6 please be switched off. Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, I think I'm the guilty party on that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your microphone may be necessary.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. So, Colonel --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness -- if it's background noise, would
12 it assist in any way if the witness would come a bit closer to the
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is the microphone of
15 anyone else who is not speaking at the moment when the witness is
16 speaking. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you could try to switch off, Mr. McCloskey,
18 when you are not speaking. Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. So, Colonel, you did monitor these groups for any information
21 that may be interested for you -- to your command.
22 A. Your Honours, I was a Military Observer as well during my
23 military career. I was a Military Observer of the United Nations, and I
24 knew full well what the procedure was and the system of work of the
25 United Nations as well, especially Military Observers and others who were
1 there to provide humanitarian aid and were in that function in
2 Republika Srpska. It's not that I particularly followed them, but I knew
3 what they were doing.
4 Q. So the question was: Did you get information that you thought
5 may be of interest to your command about these groups and report back to
6 them about it, to your command?
7 A. I? No.
8 Q. Did the brigade liaison officers, who would have been under your
9 supervision, do that?
10 A. We had only one check-point in Gradiska for entering the
11 1st Corps area. That is how humanitarian convoys from Zagreb came. They
12 had different experts. They had metal detection experts, security
13 experts, intelligence experts, that is to say, personnel was chosen that
14 can perform such functions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm stopping you because I have great
16 difficulties in understanding how what you're tell us is in answer to the
18 What Mr. McCloskey would like that know simply is whether you
19 used your position as a liaison officer and the liaison officers that
20 were subordinate to you, whether you also used your position in order to
21 gather information about UNPROFOR, where they moved, what they did,
22 et cetera? Did you gather that kind of information and report it to your
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I followed UNPROFOR
25 convoys from the moment they crossed the border until they left the
1 territory. So of course I'd report how the convoy went.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Was that limited to convoys or was that about other
3 information as well?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Limited to convoys only.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. And the question was about the officers. You said you didn't do
8 that personally. Now you told the Judge something --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me.
11 Q. You've now said that you did do it. You had previously told me
12 that you personally didn't do it.
13 My question was: Did your liaison officers in the brigades of
14 the 1st Krajina Corps report on not just the movements but other
15 interesting intelligence-type information that may be of interest to
16 their commands?
17 A. Everything that had to do with UNPROFOR activities and movement
18 and that of humanitarian organisations, check-points, responsible
19 persons, the chain of command was there to send this information up. The
20 check-point would report to its superior brigade.
21 Q. I'll try one last time, Colonel. I understand that they would
22 have reported on the movement and where they went and when they went
23 there. What I'm asking you about is intelligence information. Things
24 that -- people that are on there, when they stop, what they get out and
25 are doing, anything that would be interesting to the command.
1 Intelligence-type information. You know what I'm talking about.
2 A. If UNPROFOR would stop somewhere and take some pictures and if
3 some of the people that were there and that were in charge would see
4 that, of course they would report on that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. McCloskey is thinking about whether
6 UNPROFOR members in their -- in their own time would drink too much or
7 would do kind of things that would -- was there any such --
8 Mr. McCloskey, is that the kind of -- otherwise be more specific in your
9 questions and give a few examples of what you mean and then the witness
10 can confirm or deny that such or similar information was gathered.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: If which go to 65 ter 31503. We can deal with
12 this matter very simply, I think.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because the issue apparently is were you just
14 liaising or were you spying on them as well. Is that the simple
15 question --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. That's the question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Were you spying on them as well, Witness? Before
18 you continue to read, could you please answer my question.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Liaison officers did not spy. They
20 just monitored. They monitored what those people did, where they went,
21 why they went where they went, on how many occasions. This is not
22 spying. If you observe that somebody is going somewhere for the fifth
23 time, to the same location, and takes photos there, why, you wonder. In
24 view of the fact that the location has an important military facility,
25 for example.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY:
2 Q. Okay. Let's take look at the -- this simple document before us.
3 It's from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps on the 12th of September,
4 1993, when you were the liaison officer?
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: 1992.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Sorry. Thank you very much. 1992.
7 Q. When you were the liaison officer. And it's to the command of
8 the 1st OKbr, the Armoured Brigade, and the 43rd Infantry Motorised
9 Brigade, and Major Slavko Kralj. That's you; right?
10 A. Yes, indeed.
11 Q. And we can see that that first paragraph, "with regard to the
12 movement and control of UNPROFOR observers through our territory," and it
13 gives a list of places, including on the Prijedor axis, through these two
14 zones, and then the bottom of the page it says:
15 "Patrols shall be allowed within the boundaries of the permitted
17 Turning the page in English:
18 "Every crossing of the river Sava and entry onto the territory
19 must be announced in good time and met with and escorted by our liaison
21 "Liaison officers shall inform the commands of the 1st OKbr and
22 43rd pmbr of where they are going, when they will return, and of anything
23 else they observe while on the move which would be of interest to the
25 So, Colonel, this was an order to you to observe these folks and
1 get back to your command with anything of interest. And that would
2 include intelligence information, wouldn't it?
3 A. Perhaps if you will allow me, I'd like to explain this document.
4 The 1st Krajina Corps withdrew from Slavonia pursuant to --
5 Q. Colonel Kralj, you need to answer the question first and then a
6 fair explanation is always possible. But answer my question, please.
7 A. I personally with these monitors, they couldn't enter the
8 territory of Republika Srpska if they were not escorted by me. To
9 control that agreement in certain zones that were set out in the
10 agreement, my obligation was to report on their conduct and behaviour,
11 what else they did in addition to the activities that were planned. As a
12 liaison officer, I simply submitted my reports on the work of those UN
13 monitors whose mission was to inspect areas south of the Sava, several
14 kilometres in the depth of territory from the river. And they didn't
15 need an interpreter.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you give a very long answer and you're
17 circling around what apparently the question is. That is, to report on
18 anything they observe while on the move and that would be of interest of
19 the commands, which is to be reported. That does not exclude
20 intelligence information, does it?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Every piece of information may be
23 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is yes, if I understand you well.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it may be.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Took us a while to come there. If you would
1 be a bit more direct in answering the questions. Carefully listen to
2 them and answer them, rather than to spend a lot of words on matters
3 which are only in the margin.
4 Yes, Mr. Lukic.
5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry for interrupting you, but then
6 can we have the definition what intelligence data is. I mean --
7 JUDGE ORIE: If it's everything, it doesn't exclude intelligence.
8 I mean everything is everything, Mr. Lukic. So I do agree with you
9 that -- and I think that I already earlier, when Mr. McCloskey said you
10 know what I understand when he was referring to intelligence, that I
11 certainly encouraged him to come with examples so that there would be no
12 misunderstanding about what Mr. McCloskey considers to be intelligence
13 and what the witness -- but now we are at the point, if nothing is
14 excluded, intelligence is also not excluded. Everything.
15 Please proceed. And you move on forwards far quicker,
16 Mr. McCloskey, if you would phrase the questions in such a way that the
17 witness just has no opportunity to -- to find the sidelines.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is a secret I have been trying to find,
20 Your Honour, for many years.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, try again, I would say.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I will keep trying.
23 Q. Sir, you have seen documents that showed that the -- some
24 ammunition came in through UNHCR convoys, that food came in through UNHCR
25 convoys that managed to find its way to the army, you have testified that
1 the UN forces were conducted reconnaissance, including reconnaissance for
3 In 1995, when you were in the Main Staff, as far as you knew, did
4 the Main Staff consider UNPROFOR in the eastern enclaves to be the enemy
5 because of these activities?
6 A. I don't know that UNPROFOR considered the Main Staff as their
8 JUDGE ORIE: The question was the opposite, I think. Did you,
9 was -- in the Main Staff, was UNPROFOR considered to be your enemy, in
10 terms of the armed conflict?
11 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, I think that the -- the answer was the
12 opposite, actually. But --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, the answer as translated? Is that --
14 MR. LUKIC: The answer was translated wrongly. But I don't want
15 to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least you would seek verification of that.
17 Could you -- could you again answer the question whether you,
18 that is, the VRS Main Staff, considered UNPROFOR to be your enemy in
19 terms of the armed conflict?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. Did you consider the siphoning off or the taking of some
23 humanitarian aid from convoys a reason to restrict or -- excuse me, a
24 reason to restrict that aid to the eastern enclaves in 1995?
25 A. Yes, partly.
1 Q. So you acknowledge, then, that there were restrictions placed on
2 those enclaves in 1995 for humanitarian aid.
3 A. No. Restrictions were not imposed on the enclaves. But we bore
4 in mind how much UNPROFOR needed for the normal functioning. I mean, how
5 much of the different types of commodities and goods.
6 Q. Sir, I'll try again because we saw your answer before that. Did
7 you restrict the humanitarian aid to the enclaves because some of it was
8 getting siphoned off to the army?
9 A. No, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we are dealing with linguistic issues rather
11 than anything else.
12 In view of the answers you've given at this moment, Witness,
13 could I ask you the following: Were you allowing less humanitarian aid
14 in than requested because you had information that part of the
15 humanitarian aid ended up with the BiH armed forces?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. In your mind, as an officer and a JNA officer before that, would
20 you have been justified in doing because of what was happening?
21 A. There are superior bodies which discussed that, and I mean a
22 joint military commission. The omissions of that kind were discussed as
23 well as all the problems that arose either from working with humanitarian
24 organisations or UNPROFOR.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It's not an answer to the question.
1 Witness, I would really urge you to answer the questions because,
2 otherwise, we're unable to properly evaluate the evidence you are giving.
3 Please --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And I will try this question again. But this time I want to use
6 UNPROFOR as the example.
7 There have been mention here of the occasional times where an
8 UNPROFOR convoy may have had contraband or material on it. Do you, as an
9 officer, believe that those violations, as would you have seen them,
10 justified you in restricting the supplies to the UNPROFOR troops?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean, Witness, because that's what it all
14 turned around, that you granted all the requests without any limitations
15 for whatever UNPROFOR asked to be brought in in convoys?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't approve things, but there
17 were certain restrictions, as shown by the documentation.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you have been asked seven times about
19 whether there were restrictions. You said no, no, no. And now you say,
20 of course, there were restrictions. Let's try to -- to get to the
21 answers a bit more quickly.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Colonel, the simple point I'm --
1 MR. LUKIC: I apologise. The question was not about restrictions
2 but what he thinks and is that reasonable and justified. That was the
3 question. What is his position. Not whether there were restriction --
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- Mr. Lukic, that was some of the questions
6 but there were other questions which clearly asked for whether there any
7 restrictions imposed. Let's move on and let's avoid to make it a
8 discussion about concepts.
9 And Mr. Mladic should not speak at any audible volume.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY:
12 Q. The simple point that I want to hear your answer on, sir, is that
13 with the occasional infraction or violation from the UNPROFOR convoys or
14 the UNHCR convoys as we've discussed, does that, in your view as a
15 military professional, justify the restrictions on the UNPROFOR and the
16 civilian populations?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm intervening again. When I
18 earlier said that questions were indeed about justifications, the proper
19 way of dealing with this is, first, to establish whether there were any
20 restrictions, and, second, then whether they were justified. Justified,
21 of course, asking for some opinion and some judgement as well. But the
22 first question is were there restrictions. Because if you ask a witness:
23 Did this and this justify that, then it doesn't answer the question
24 whether that happened at all.
25 So, therefore, the logical and appropriate way is: First, to
1 establish whether there were restrictions. That's the reason why I asked
2 the witness whether the requests were granted. Because if they're not
3 granted, then apparently there are restrictions. They are cut down in
4 one way or another.
5 Could we try to follow this scheme. What happened, why did it
6 happen, and was that justified by other events which may have happened as
7 well. That's, in my view, the appropriate way of tackling the issue.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps, Mr. President, this will work better.
10 Q. Witness, it's the position of the Prosecution that there were
11 serious restrictions placed on UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid to create
12 great hardship in the enclaves. Would, in your view as a professional
13 officer, such restrictions, if done, be ever justified?
14 A. I don't understand the question. And it's if this, then that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'll help you. Witness -- witness, I'll
16 try to assist you. I think a minute ago you said that restrictions were
17 imposed, restrictions imposed on UNPROFOR and humanitarian aid. Is that
18 correctly understood?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You understood things correctly.
20 You can see in certain documents that things were not always fully
21 approved during a certain period of time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Why were they not approved?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Primarily if there was combat going
24 on in a certain part, and especially when NATO pact started its
25 air-strike campaigns, then convoys did not move because they had not been
1 approved. Those were the main reasons, as far as I know, why some
2 convoys were suspended or not approved ...
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, suspension for practical
4 circumstances is not the same as not being approved.
5 Before any air-strikes, was it merely combat activity that caused
6 the Main Staff not to approve convoys?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, only ongoing
8 combat was the reason.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be at the time when the convoy would
10 pass, not at the point in time when it was requested if situations were
11 then different?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the situation changed, convoys
13 were approved.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't my question, but ... so only practical
15 circumstances were at the basis of not -- denying convoys to pass
17 Then we -- at least we started with the facts, Mr. McCloskey.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to P1469 --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. McCloskey, please.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to tender this, that document,
22 65 ter 31503.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P6855, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: So if we could have P1469.
2 Q. This first page is a letter from General Milovanovic enclosing a
3 document called Directive 7: "Directive for further operations,
4 op number 7." And it's sent out 17 May 1995.
5 This is a document you've seen in two other appearances before
6 this Tribunal; correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to page 14 in the English, page 21 in
9 the Serbian.
10 Under the section of support for combat operations, moral and
11 psychological support. Let's go down to the fourth paragraph and we'll
12 all recall that this was -- came out in the name of Supreme Commander,
13 Dr. Radovan Karadzic.
14 "The relevant state and military organs responsible for work with
15 UNPROFOR and the humanitarian organisations, shall, through the planned
16 and unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits, reduce and limit the
17 logistics support of UNPROFOR to the enclaves and the supply of material
18 resources to the Muslim population, making them dependant on our goodwill
19 while at the same time avoiding condemnation by the international
20 community and the international -- and international public opinion."
21 Q. Now, sir, you and Colonel Djurdjic were part of the Main Staff
22 office that was responsible for the work of UNPROFOR and humanitarian
23 organisations; correct?
24 A. Not correct. First of all, Colonel Djurdjic was responsible, and
25 I, at the time when he was absent, deputised for him or assisted him. In
1 other words, my main task was as an interpreter. If Djurdjic was absent,
2 I could deal with documents in terms of pure handling and administrative
3 handling of such a document.
4 Q. Sir, you were part of the Department of Civilian Affairs in the
5 Main Staff, and you and Mr. Djurdjic dealt specifically with this
6 subject: UNPROFOR and humanitarian convoys; correct?
7 A. A correction: Mr. Djurdjic. And when he was absent, then I had
8 to stand in for him or replace him to deal with certain paperwork.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, so you dealt with him. You, in his absence,
10 and if Mr. Djurdjic was there, he did it. So, therefore, again, the
11 simple answer is yes, but perhaps -- it was no one else. It was you --
12 your department which dealt with those matters, if only administratively.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. And as you've already testified, Colonel Djurdjic's superior was
17 General Mladic; correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So General Mladic and Colonel Djurdjic would have been
20 responsible for following this supreme directive; correct? What I just
22 A. I learnt about this directive only here. I've already told you
23 that. This was a level of confidentiality that was way above me. I
24 didn't know about it.
25 Q. Will you please answer my question.
1 A. As regards your question, General Mladic is responsible for the
2 implementation of this directive, if it was sent to him.
3 Q. And General Mladic would have -- who would he have ordered to
4 implement it? Who was his top man for convoys? And if it will help
5 refresh your recollection, I read you back what -- how important you said
6 Mr. Djurdjic was. Who would Mladic have assigned this task to?
7 A. He would have assigned it to Colonel Djurdjic who was a member of
8 this state body for humanitarian aid on behalf of the Ministry of Defence
9 and the army.
10 Q. And he was the chief of the administration for civilian affairs
11 in the Main Staff.
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And who was the one person that helped him get his job done,
14 Djurdjic? Who was the one person that Djurdjic had to rely on to help
15 him get his job done?
16 A. He did most of the work by himself.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's, again, not an answer to the question. Do
18 you know of anyone closer to Mr. Djurdjic who would take over if he was
19 absent? Closer -- I mean anyone closer than you were.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was the closest.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Next question, please.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think it's break time, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is.
24 We'll take a break, Witness. We'd like to see you back in
25 20 minutes from now. You may follow the usher.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, questions which are not of a
3 composite nature and questions that are primarily aiming and establishing
4 facts and not dealing too quickly with opinion, judgement, et cetera, may
5 assist in getting the evidence you apparently are seeking in a more
6 efficient way.
7 We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, may I respond briefly to that?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it wasn't a question as a matter of fact. It
10 was a suggestion. Think about it. If you think it would, then I say it
11 may assist. If you consider that it doesn't assist, then you put the
12 questions in the way you would -- it was just a serious effort to see
13 whether I could -- whether I could assist you in achieving as quickly as
14 possible what you - as far as we understand - are seeking to achieve at
15 this moment.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand, Mr. President, and I was going to
17 attempt to see if I could convince you that opinion and such may be --
18 may be important, but I very much appreciate being alerted to what you
19 think is the most important. That's critical to both parties. And I
20 thank you for that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. We're just -- we'll finish up with Directive 7. It should be on
4 your screen. And we've gone over that particular paragraph. I won't ask
5 you what you think of it. But you're a career JNA soldier. You know
6 about the full method of creating and putting together an important
7 document such as a directive, don't you?
8 A. Unfortunately, I never attained that level.
9 Q. You've seen this document several times. Tell us who actually
10 drafted this directive, these pages that contain this, among other?
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can we see the end of the document in English.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was hoping to -- well, that's fine.
13 Q. From your memory, please, if possible, sir, unless you don't
15 A. It is written here that this was drafted by Radivoje Miletic, but
16 I have no idea whether he actually did do that or when.
17 Q. Well, you testified for Radivoje Miletic and -- so you must have
18 known that he -- as you testified, that he had drafted it, at least after
19 the war. Or have you forgotten that?
20 A. I never testified that he was the one who authored that. That
21 must be a mistake. How can I testify about something that I don't know
23 Q. I will skip that. I don't know what the problem there is. I
24 didn't say that to you. So we'll just skip that.
25 Did you know that in a document like this, that it's put together
1 by the very organs of the Main Staff that are responsible for the various
2 parts of it, intel, morale, legal, religious, logistics, that it's a
3 joint effort of the Main Staff bodies responsible for this content?
4 A. I didn't know of that document or in the way in such a document
5 is compiled.
6 Q. It's the Prosecution's position, sir, that what is stated here
7 about "through planned and unobtrusively restrictive issuing of permits,"
8 et cetera, that that is precisely what happened. That
9 President Karadzic's orders, directive, were followed by the Main Staff,
10 and we saw the results on the ground. You've testified that you were
11 able to see some of the -- or you were able to learn of some of the
12 results on the ground. You too saw the restrictions and what was
13 happening to the people of UNPROFOR and the people of Srebrenica, weren't
15 A. I was never in Srebrenica, and I did not follow that situation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, my first suggestion was no composite
17 questions. You introduced five different elements in your question or in
18 your introduction to the question, and then, of course, the witness
19 chooses the one which he prefers to deal with rather than to be focussed
20 by you on the issue.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll keep trying, Your Honour.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. All right. Let's speak briefly -- I want to go back briefly to
25 Mladic's involvement in this process that you describe regarding the
1 UNPROFOR convoys. And I want to go something that you said in
2 cross-examination in the Tolimir case, and we can put it on the screen,
3 if need be.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's 65 ter 31499. And that should be page 11 in
6 Q. And Mr. Vanderpuye asked you this question:
7 "He" -- and where he says "he," we can see from above that he
8 means General Tolimir. So:
9 "He, General Milovanovic, and General Mladic needed to know what
10 the disposition of those convoys were in order to frame how to address
11 requests and other issues concerning future convoys; right?
12 And your answer was:
13 "All three of them, as part of their duties, did deal with
14 convoys. General Mladic reviewed each item in detail and would ask for
15 Colonel Djurdjic's suggestions on numerous issues in order to be able to
16 make a proper decision. If General Mladic was not there, the same
17 thing" - next page in e-court - "could be done by General Milovanovic."
18 And then Mr. Vanderpuye asked you:
19 "And if General Milovanovic wasn't there, the same thing could be
20 done by General Tolimir; right, Mr. Kralj?"
21 And your answer is:
22 "Well, he couldn't unless the commander authorised him to do
24 So do each of those answers to those questions, did that refer to
25 the kind of convoy requests for UNPROFOR that we had looked at briefly?
1 A. Briefly, General Mladic authorised General Milovanovic to deal
2 with questions that pertained to UNPROFOR and humanitarian organisations.
3 General Tolimir was in these working groups, these bodies, where he could
4 specifically say what was agreed upon and what was not agreed upon, if
5 there was any dispute.
6 So if General Mladic issued an order, it was compulsory for
7 everyone else. And within the scope of his work, he could consult anyone
8 if he found anything to be unclear. I'm referring to General Mladic, but
9 everything was clear to him more than to us.
10 Q. And when you say "him," you mean General Mladic?
11 A. Yes, I mean General Mladic. He had more information about
12 everything, from different sides. Whereas all the rest of us at lower
13 levels, it was for us to act in accordance with his orders.
14 Q. You state here, you testified under oath, and I quote:
15 "General Mladic reviewed each item in detail and would ask for
16 Colonel Djurdjic's suggestions on numerous issues in order to be able to
17 make a proper decision."
18 So do you stand by that? Did General Mladic review each item in
19 detail on these convoy UNPROFOR requests?
20 A. Whichever document reached the General, he would look at it
21 carefully, study it, and if he found anything unclear in relation to
22 humanitarian aid, he would require additional information. And he could
23 receive that information only from Colonel Djurdjic because
24 Colonel Djurdjic was the one who precisely had all this information.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't the question, Witness. You'd testified
1 that General Mladic, General Milovanovic, and General Tolimir dealt with
2 convoys, and you said:
3 "General Mladic reviewed each item in detail and would ask for
4 Colonel Djurdjic's suggestion on numerous issues in order to be able to
5 make a proper decision."
6 Along those procedural lines, did General Mladic make decisions
7 after having reviewed each item in detail?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And can we offer this
11 bit of the transcript into evidence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, this bit of a transcript, Mr. McCloskey, is a
13 pretty wide request. Perhaps restrictions should apply --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: 65 ter 31499, e-court pages 11 and 12.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I mean do we need the full 92 pages just for
16 the purposes of the two pages we dealt with.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, no, I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just the two pages.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we reserve a number and you'll upload the
21 relevant pages and they'll then be dealt with under the number.
22 Mr. Registrar, the number to be reserved for an excerpt of the
23 transcript would be?
24 THE REGISTRAR: P6856, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is reserved for that purpose.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY:
3 Q. Now, Colonel, I want to talk hopefully briefly with you about the
4 process for humanitarian convoys, not UNPROFOR convoys, and we see in
5 your statement that you describe a bit of a different procedure for that.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And can we go to D336. And we'll see that this
7 is a portion of the Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska. It's dated
8 14 March, which is just a few days after 8 March, when Directive 7 was
9 created. It's 1995. So if we could just go to page 3 in the English and
10 page 2 in the B/C/S.
11 Q. You'll agree with me that this is the law setting up this -- this
12 committee for co-operation?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you have testified before that before this law, the VRS had
15 control of the humanitarian convoys; but after this law, this body had
16 control. Is that a simple -- simple statement of the guts of what you've
17 got in your statement?
18 A. May I clarify? This body received requests, initial requests,
19 for the passage of convoys of humanitarian aid and then they would
20 consider them. Milos Djurdjic, Colonel Milos Djurdjic was co-ordinator
21 of that committee with the ministry and the Main Staff of the Army of
22 Republika Srpska. So ...
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. McCloskey, apologies for interrupting again, but
24 you say we're looking at a law. What I see is a decision on the
25 appointment of members and the president of a committee, not -- I do not
1 see any law on my screen at this moment.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. I believe this has the
3 force of law --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Oh --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and that was my reference to it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then it's -- well, I consider a law to
7 be some kind of a general rule, whereas here apparently persons are
8 appointed on this committee. But if that explains the matter, then
9 there's no problem.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
11 Q. So there was a -- we can see seven people that are on this
12 committee and Milos Djurdjic, your boss, was one of them; correct?
13 A. There were never persons on this committee [as interpreted], and
14 Milos was number 7 in the Serbian version.
15 Q. That's correct. And so the answer is yes, that he's one of the
16 seven. And he was in a place to know better than anybody what
17 General Mladic would want to allow in humanitarian -- on humanitarian
18 convoys, wasn't he?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And can you tell us if General Mladic would not be pleased if
21 this committee set up by Karadzic's government recommended something he
22 didn't want? Is that a fair conclusion?
23 MR. LUKIC: I object at this point of time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And the base for your objection is --
25 MR. LUKIC: The objection is that this witness should tell us
1 what Mr. Mladic would feel.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the objection is granted.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. Did you ever see Djurdjic or General Mladic complain or get upset
5 with the activity and the approvals of this committee?
6 A. First of all, the committee would not give approval had
7 Colonel Djurdjic not come with a clear-cut position as to whether the
8 Army of Republika Srpska could secure safe passage.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, that, again, is not an answer to the
10 question. That any --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: But that is an answer I'd very much like,
12 Your Honour, for you to understand but --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, yes. But do you then still insist on an
14 answer to your question or are you just happy with the testimony as given
15 although unrelated to your question?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry for interrupting you but I didn't want
17 to let that answer get away. No, I am, and I appreciate your
18 clarification with the witness.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, it's part of his testimony. Do you
20 still insist on an answer to your question?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then I'll try to -- Witness, did it -- do you
23 have any knowledge about either Mr. Djurdjic or Mr. Mladic expressing
24 that they were unhappy with or that they did not agree with any decision,
25 opinion, or whatever, may have expressed -- may have been expressed by
1 this committee?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no such knowledge.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And then you would agree -- you would agree with me that what you
6 said that when Colonel Djurdjic brings the views of the VRS to this
7 committee, that something that the committee is going to take very
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if we go back to Directive 7 and we see the order for -- for
11 the restrictive issuing of permits, would -- the committee under that
12 order would be obliged to follow that, the order in Directive 7, would it
14 A. I'm not aware of that, whether the committee was made aware of
15 that directive at all.
16 Q. That's not my question. You're a lieutenant-colonel in the VRS.
17 Would this directive from President Karadzic that you have read and seen
18 for many years now, would -- would the convoy approvals of this committee
19 be obligated to be in conformance with that directive?
20 A. Of course.
21 Q. And with the VRS also following President Karadzic's order in
22 Directive 7, would you -- did you see a co-ordination between this
23 committee and Mr. Djurdjic in the Main Staff to follow the order in
24 Directive 7 to restrict permits?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
1 MR. LUKIC: At this point I would object, since this is actually
2 different from the evidence we have in the case. We know about the
3 Directive 7/1 and --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's --
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Whoa.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --
7 MR. LUKIC: I didn't say any [overlapping speakers] --
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're supposed not to put to the witness what we
9 have received as evidence. The question was whether this witness saw any
10 co-ordination and I think he can answer that question, irrespective of
11 what evidence we may have heard at other moments. So --
12 MR. LUKIC: Co-ordination in the Main Staff to follow the
13 order --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's --
15 MR. LUKIC: -- in the Directive 7.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- you may have --
17 MR. LUKIC: In the pertinent part --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may argue -- yes. Mr. Lukic, you may argue
19 about Mr. McCloskey has not presented this as evidence we received. He
20 suggests what he suggests, which is in a leading question permitted, and
21 the matter you're raising is argument rather than an objection to the
22 question. Could you ...
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, or you can deal with the matter in
25 re-examination. But it's usually of no use to discuss with the witness
1 what other evidence may have been presented to this Chamber.
2 Mr. McCloskey, you have had now sufficient time to think again
3 about your question and about how to phrase it in such a way that you get
4 a direct answer. Could you please put the question or a question on the
5 same subject to the witness again.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY:
7 Q. Did you see any co-ordination between Mr. Djurdjic, his
8 administration, and this committee in their work related to humanitarian
9 convoy approvals?
10 A. No.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Witness, could I ask you the following.
12 Mr. Djurdjic was a member of that committee. Is that not in itself, by
13 definition, that at least on his personal participation in that
14 committee, that already establishes a certain level of co-ordination,
15 because it's one person, both in the committee and participating in -- in
16 the work of his administration.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I understand. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. So now we have established there was co-ordination between the
21 work of Mr. Djurdjic and this committee regarding humanitarian convoys;
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Okay. And we see that the Professor Nikola Koljevic, the deputy
25 president of the Republika Srpska, is the president of this state
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And so, having that in mind, let's go to
3 65 ter 25113.
4 Q. This is an intercept that you may recall Ms. Fauveau, Defence
5 counsel for General Miletic, showing you many years ago. And it's
6 identified as a conversation held on 23 June 1995 between Petko Obucina
7 and Zdravko Tolimir. Can you tell us who Petko Obucina was?
8 A. Petko Obucina was a member of staff of the office of the
9 president of the republic. I don't know what his position was.
10 Q. He was an official for Koljevic; is that right?
11 A. I did not see him on the list of names that we just saw a little
12 while ago.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question. The question was whether
14 he was an official for Mr. Koljevic.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. He worked for him. He told that to Ms. Fauveau years ago.
17 A. He was a member of the president's office staff and co-operated
18 with Koljevic, like I just told you before.
19 Q. All right. And if we look at this, we see on line 4 that he
20 introduces himself:
21 "It's Petko Obucina here, from the Pale commission. I would like
22 to speak to General Tolimir."
23 Then it goes down and Petko says, when he gets General Tolimir:
24 "General, I have just received a called from Professor Koljevic."
25 General Tolimir says: "Yes."
1 It says:
2 "He was with the prime minister right now, he will there for
3 another 15 minutes. He was asking for you about the exchange for
5 Tolimir says: "All right."
6 Obucina says:
7 "He was wondering whether Milos, who is there, could be given the
8 green light and that he allow us to deal with it. Otherwise you should
9 call him."
10 Tolimir says:
11 "The commander gave him approval for what he requested. Milos
12 failed to understand and the commander approved what can go in and out of
14 Petko says: "Can?"
15 Tolimir says: "Just tell him that."
16 And we see the rest of it confirming that.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We may need to go to the next page in the
18 Serbian. I can't quite tell. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Ms. Stewart.
19 Q. Now it's the view of the Prosecution, sir, that this is
20 Mr. Obucina calling and co-ordinating with General Tolimir about issues
21 related to approvals for Srebrenica. You've talked about this intercept
22 before. Is that your view?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I see it's 2.15. I have a few documents. I hope
25 I'll get done within 30 minutes of tomorrow, Your Honour, I hope. I
1 don't know how much time I have used but I think I'm within my
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would be surprised if you were not on the basis of
4 the last estimates, but we'll verify.
5 Witness, we'll adjourn for the day, and we'd like to see you
6 back. Mr. Kralj, I'll give you the same instructions as I did yesterday,
7 that is, that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way with
8 whomever about your testimony, whether that is testimony already given
9 yesterday and today, or whether that is testimony still to be given
11 If that's clear, you may follow the usher, and we'd like to see
12 you back.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President, just one housekeeping while
14 we're --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need the witness for what you are --
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, no.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the witness already can follow the
21 [The witness stands down]
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And the two transcript pages assigned
23 Exhibit P06858 have now been uploaded into e-court under -- 56, sorry, I
24 need to get glasses. P06856 - now I'm dyslexic - have now been uploaded
25 into e-court under 65 ter 31499A.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I heard of no objections, Mr. Lukic. Therefore,
2 P -- first of all, the Registrar is instructed to link the uploaded
3 31499A document, link it with the number reserved and therefore
4 provisionally assigned P6856. And P6856 is admitted into evidence.
5 We adjourn for the day, and we'll resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the
6 29th of October, 9.30 in the morning, in this same courtroom, I.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
9 October, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.