1 Monday, 3 November 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
8 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber is aware that both parties have some preliminaries.
11 We'll pay attention to them later, that none of them are urgent.
12 I'd like to draw your attention to one item in relation to D557,
13 which is MFI'd. It is the Islamic declaration of Alija Izetbegovic, and
14 the Defence used a very small number of pages of that Islamic declaration
15 during the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic. The entire 77-page document
16 was marked for identification as D557, pending an agreement between the
17 parties about which pages of the document should be received in evidence.
18 Subsequently, the Defence informed the Chamber that it wanted to
19 tender the entire document. On the 13th of October, the Chamber set a
20 one-week deadline to receive the reasons for tendering the entirety of
21 the document. The Defence did not file any submissions in this regard,
22 and the Chamber wonders whether it is to understand that under those
23 circumstances the tendering of D557 is withdrawn.
24 And that's a question to you, Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry that we missed the
1 dead-line, but we do not withdraw this statement. You'll see that our
2 incoming witnesses will discuss this document as well. And I think that
3 we spoke with somebody from the Prosecution and that there is -- there
4 was no objection from their side.
5 MR. TRALDI: I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Chamber wanted to know why there are
7 good reasons to tender the whole of the document. Simply we
8 spontaneously asked for a further explanation.
9 MR. LUKIC: Our position is that it's not possible to understand
10 parts of that document. We should have the whole document in front of us
11 to be able to understand the gist of it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's a short explanation, Mr. Lukic. You're
13 invited to file the submissions the Chamber requested you to file.
14 MR. TRALDI: Just to complete the record, I think Mr. Lukic is
15 correct. He'd spoken to me specifically and we'd communicated that we
16 had no objections to it being admitted in whole.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's on the record.
18 So the Chamber would like to receive submissions on the matter,
19 Mr. Lukic, and a bit more elaborate that the one you gave a second ago.
20 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Djuric. You find a new face
23 before you. The Chamber is happy that we are all three Judges here
24 again. I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn
25 declaration that you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that
1 you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.
3 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 WITNESS: MANE DJURIC [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
7 Q. Good morning, sir.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. I want to start this morning with the topic of paramilitaries.
10 Now, you mentioned in your statement that measures were taken against
11 paramilitaries and I've just a few questions about that.
12 First, before measures were taken against the paramilitaries,
13 they were causing problems for the Serb population; right?
14 A. Yes, they were causing problems for the Serb population and for
15 the Bosniak Muslim population.
16 Q. And those included breaking into Serb houses and flats?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. Included disturbing the peace generally?
19 A. Exactly. Disturbing the peace, breaking into apartments,
20 looting, so the police within the domain of its authority and powers took
21 all necessary measures and to that end the Crisis Staff also adopted
22 certain instructions on forbidding any breaking into abandoned apartments
23 and houses.
24 Q. Now in paragraph 51 of your statement, you're discussing
25 parliaments and you say:
1 "These units had become so arrogant that they did not shrink from
2 stopping an official vehicle that transported our minister from abusing
3 him, getting him out of the vehicle, et cetera."
4 Now the specific paramilitary unit that did this was the
5 Yellow Wasps, right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Now the minister you're referring to was Minister of the Interior
8 Mico Stanisic, retire?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And you're aware the Yellow Wasps had also stopped and mistreated
11 Mr. Velibor Ostojic; right?
12 A. Correct, correct. Since Velibor Ostojic had less protection and
13 a smaller security detail, then he was exposed to more mistreatment.
14 Q. I want to focus on the incident with Minister Stanic for a
15 moment. You learnt about this incident in 1992; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You learned about it from his driver? Minister Stanic's driver.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And it had happened either the same day or the day before you
20 that learned about it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now among other things you were told to get the police ready and
23 expect an order, weren't you?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And the order to conduct an operation against the Yellow Wasps
1 was issued a day or two later; right?
2 A. Approximately that way.
3 Q. I want to turn now to the Vlasenica SJB's relationship with the
4 army. To start, the JNA's Novi Sad Corps left Vlasenica on or around the
5 19th of May, 1992; right?
6 A. That's right. The order was that the former JNA had to leave the
7 area of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the 19th of May, 1992.
8 Q. Now, when they left they left behind equipment and armoured
9 personnel carriers; right?
10 A. Yes. Part of the equipment stayed behind. I don't know what the
11 exact quantity was, but at any rate it wasn't a significant quantity.
12 Q. Some soldiers also stayed behind; right?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And the soldiers and equipment became part of the VRS's
15 Birac Brigade; right?
16 A. Yes, yes. Since a decision had already been reached to establish
17 the Army of Republika Srpska. Everything became part of the Army of
18 Republika Srpska, and this equipment was kept by the Army of
19 Republika Srpska.
20 Q. And your SJB carried out some of its activities in co-ordination
21 with military organs; correct?
22 A. Yes. At first it was with the Territorial Defence and later,
23 when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, with the members of
24 the Army of Republika Srpska acting either in concert or co-ordinated
1 MR. TRALDI: Now, could we have 65 ter 1D02348.
2 Q. Now, as we're waiting for the English, this is a report you sent
3 to the Romanija Birac CSB on the 6th of August, 1992.
4 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 2 in the English and the
5 third paragraph of page 1 in the B/C/S.
6 Q. We see here in the second paragraph in the English:
7 "The public security station co-ordinated its activity and
8 performed it jointly with organs of the army, particularly when those
9 carrying out the activities were persons who were directly engaged in war
11 That's correct; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Turning to page 3 in the English and 2 in the B/C/S, the last
14 paragraph, we read in pertinent part:
15 "We deem that the level of co-operation and a joint action by
16 employees of the public security station and members of the army is
17 satisfactory ..."
18 So at the time you were satisfied with the level of co-operation
19 between the SJB and the VRS; right?
20 A. That's right. Our objective was to establish institutions, just
21 as the Army of Republika Srpska wanted to do. So these institutions
22 should function headed by the Main Staff in accordance with procedures
23 that were in force because from the point of view of public security and
24 safety that was the only way to operate, and also from the point of view
25 of the Army of Republika Srpska, to have successful defence against the
2 Q. Now, looking at the previous paragraph, we see a discussion of
3 curbing and preventing crimes by members of the army and the note that
4 related to this, 30 reports and other notices were submitted. Those
5 reports would have been submitted to the VRS when the offences were
6 believed to have been committed by members of the army; right?
7 A. That is what I assume.
8 Q. Well, let's try and go beyond assumptions. If you're information
9 indicated that members of the military had committed crimes, you would
10 turn that information over to the military, like we see described here;
12 A. That's right. At first before the military police started
13 function or, rather, the crime prevention service within the Army of
14 Republika Srpska, we were the ones who recorded these crimes committed.
15 And then when this service was established in the VRS, all of these cases
16 that have to do with soldiers, members of the VRS, were referred to them,
17 to the crime prevention service of the military police.
18 Q. That was because crimes committed by members of the VRS at that
19 time were in the jurisdiction of the VRS; right?
20 A. Correct. But these institutions hadn't started functioning
21 officially yet. As soon as that happened, we had a meeting and we
22 referred all these cases to the military service that was in charge. And
23 later, on the system functioned as follows. If the police would notice
24 that members of the VRS were committing certain crimes, then they would
25 notify the military police of that and they would take measures as
1 envisaged by the law.
2 Q. Now, in fact, you've said in one of your interviews that the VRS
3 would complain if you got involved in dealing with crimes by members of
4 the VRS. That's true, isn't it?
5 A. Correct. I would just explain that. In order to prevent any
6 kind of clash in terms of jurisdictions, we acted in accordance with that
7 we referred all cases to the VRS, those cases that they would be in
8 charge of.
9 Q. And that meant that if you believed a crime to be in jurisdiction
10 of the army, you didn't investigate; right?
11 A. In the later period we did not investigate. We would just hand
12 over all the information we had to the VRS or, rather, the crime
13 prevention service of the military police of the VRS.
14 Q. I want to go back now briefly to a couple of the points we
15 addressed last week.
16 MR. TRALDI: And before I do, actually, I'll tender this
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D2348 receives number P6878.
20 JUDGE ORIE: P6878 is admitted.
21 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that we call up 65 ter 06393.
22 Q. We discussed last week what would be done with policemen who were
23 believed to have committed crimes and their provision to the VRS. In
24 fact, the minister of the interior had ordered that such policemen be
25 placed at the disposal of the VRS; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And looking at this document, this is an order from
3 Minister Stanic dated the 23rd of July, 1992. It says at the top that
4 this order arose out of the: "Session of the collegium on 23 July 1992,"
5 among other things.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now last Thursday we discussed the collegium of the chief of the
9 CSB. Did the minister also hold collegiums in which he received
10 information from the CSB chiefs?
11 A. Yes. That's subordination in the Ministry of Interior. The
12 minister when necessary would convene this collegium of the minister,
13 that's what it was called, and it was attended by all chiefs of the
14 centres of the security services and also advisors to the minister. So
15 this was a higher level.
16 Q. And this order reflects the minister's policy that we discussed a
17 moment ago, the policemen who committed criminal offences should be
18 placed at the disposal of the VRS; right?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Now point 2 explains who's responsible for the execution of the
21 order including, chiefs of public security centres. Now, you implemented
22 this order in Vlasenica by making officers who had committed crimes
23 available to the VRS; right?
24 A. That's right.
25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 06393.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 06393 receives number P6879.
3 JUDGE ORIE: P6879 is admitted.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. Next, sir - and I'm done with this document - we spoke last week
6 about some log-books and criminal registers kept in Vlasenica. I'd like
7 to try and be a little bit more specific about the ones that existed.
8 First, the police kept a disciplinary register where disciplinary
9 violations by members of the police were recorded; right?
10 A. Yes. That's where all these records are kept.
11 Q. Second, there was something called a K log-book kept in the
12 police station recording criminal cases before those cases were handed
13 over to the prosecutor's office; right?
14 A. That's right. That's the K log-book, that is to say, the crime
15 log-book where all the crimes are logged regardless of whether the
16 perpetrators are known or unknown.
17 Q. And the prosecutor's office kept a KT log-book for known
18 perpetrators cases, and a KTN for unknown perpetrator cases; right?
19 A. Yes, the prosecutor's office also had a log-book of their own;
20 that is to say, once we as a police would deal with a criminal report,
21 then we would have it hand it over to the prosecutor's office. On the
22 basis of this information that we had submitted, the prosecutor can
23 accept that report, ask for additional information, or reject it all
25 Q. And it's the prosecutor's log-book that you confirmed last week
1 had no mention of prosecutions of Serbs for crimes against non-Serbs;
3 A. That's right. That was the log-book of the prosecutor's office
4 and this was taken out of context. Only the part that had to do with the
5 seizure of weapons. However, there were many other crimes there,
6 180-something criminal reports that were filed. I don't have the
7 structure of these crimes here right now, but it is certain that all of
8 that was filed.
9 Q. Well, let's look at one of the reports you sent about crimes.
10 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31547.
11 Q. This is a report you sent to the Romanija Birac CSB on the 25th
12 of September, 1992; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, it discusses crimes and other violations by members of the
15 police; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Looking to the third paragraph, it reflects eight criminal
18 reports against members of the police. Now, none of those were filed for
19 crimes against non-Serbs, were they?
20 A. Well, I cannot say exactly right now, but eight criminal reports
21 were filed. Armed robbery, things like that. Anyway, it's within that
23 Q. And these were mostly thefts and robberies, that type of crime;
25 A. I think most of them were.
1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 31547.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 31547 receives number P6880.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
5 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 189.
6 Q. This is the transcript of one of your interviews.
7 And you were asked beginning at line 23 after looking at the
8 document we've just seen, now P6880:
9 "With regard to all of these crimes and transgressions, were any
10 of them for actions taken against non-Serbs?"
11 And you responded:
12 "See in, in regards to criminal reports [sic], no."
13 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether any of the
14 eight criminal reports filed against police officers in Vlasenica in the
15 summer of 1992 were filed for crimes they committed against non-Serbs?
16 A. Well, it's very difficult to speak about that now, but let's say
17 if a policeman committed a robbery, and most frequently they would loot
18 Muslim property, then it could have happened that a report was submitted
19 on that matter.
20 Q. You say it could have happened. You're not aware of any reports
21 filed against police officers for crimes against non-Serbs, are you?
22 A. I cannot recall any crimes specifically at that time. Perhaps
23 there was some open investigations, but I don't believe that the final
24 result then was a criminal report.
25 MR. TRALDI: Okay. If we could go into private session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 27676-27677 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. I want to talk now, sir, about some of the crimes committed
18 against non-Serbs in Vlasenica in 1992. After the take-over, on the 21st
19 of April 1992, some non-Serbs were killed in Vlasenica town; right?
20 A. If you're thinking of the 21st of April, there were no casualties
21 on that date. The casualties happened at a later date.
22 Q. I'm asking specifically about killings in Vlasenica town after
23 the take-over. There were such events; right?
24 A. Yes. But as I said, the actual act of the take-over on the
25 April -- on the 21st of April, 1992, there were no casualties. The
1 casualties occurred later.
2 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And again, after the take-over
3 property owned by non-Serbs in Vlasenica town and in the municipality was
4 looted; right?
5 A. Yes, yes, this did happen. We tried as much as we could to
6 prevent this from happening.
7 Q. Now, the Vlasenica town mosque was destroyed in 1992; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And specifically August of 1992; correct?
10 A. Yes, correct, you are right.
11 Q. And it was destroyed by engineering units of the VRS, wasn't it?
12 A. Well, the explosive was planted by somebody who obviously knew
13 how to handle explosives.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last part of
15 the sentence.
16 MR. TRALDI:
17 Q. Sir, could you repeat the last part of your answer for the
18 interpreters, please.
19 A. In order to place explosives, the person must know how to handle
20 that. The person who were trained to do that were members of the
21 engineers units. Now, I don't know where they were from, from which
22 forces they came from, but I assume that they were part of the engineers
24 Q. Now, in fact, the Vlasenica SJB was given two or three hours
25 advance notice that the mosque was going to be destroyed; right?
1 A. Yes, we were informed two or three hours before that certain
2 activities would happen, and we informed the population accordingly,
3 asking them to leave that particular area.
4 Q. You were informed by the VRS that the engineering unit was going
5 to destroy the mosque; right?
6 A. I cannot be sure who I got the information from, but I think the
7 information came from some unit of the Army of Republika Srpska. I don't
8 know which one.
9 Q. And just so the record is absolutely clear, they told you it was
10 going to be the engineering unit that did the demolition; right?
11 A. Yes. We were told that the mosque would be blown up in the
12 afternoon and that we should inform the inhabitants this is the
13 information that we received and that we were aware of.
14 Q. To your knowledge, nobody was ever prosecuted or punished for
15 blowing up the mosque; right?
16 A. We recorded it in our reports as being perpetrated by an
17 unidentified perpetrator, and the actual event did not result in any
18 significant investigation.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, one of your previous questions where you
20 sought specifically to receive an answer to the engineering unit as being
21 the one which was announced to -- to do the job, was not answered.
22 MR. TRALDI: I thought it was answered at page 18, line 6. But
23 I'm happy to re-ask the Chamber if it suits the Chamber.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. Well, I see on lines 7 and
25 8: "Yes, we were told ..." And then the specific point you raised in
1 your question could be covered by the yes but certainly does not appear
2 in the explanation then given.
3 MR. TRALDI: All right. I'll re-ask the question. I'd request
4 that we move into private session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 MR. TRALDI:
21 Q. Sir --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question after Madam Registrar has
23 announced that we are back in open session.
24 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 Have you ever considered to lodge any protest against what
3 clearly was an announcement of the destruction of a religious -- a
4 religious monument?
5 Yes, Witness, have you received translation of the question?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'll repeat the question for you.
8 Have you ever considered to lodge any protest against what
9 clearly was an announcement of the destruction of a religious monument?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, at that
11 point in time, our goal was to inform the population to avoid anybody
12 getting hurt in the immediate vicinity, so we did not have time to write
13 any kind of protest. That means that we reduced our activities to those
14 that were in our remit: The care for the security of the population.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would the population not be best protected by
16 preventing the destruction to take place at all?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, at that
18 point in time the only possible thing was to do exactly what we did: To
19 inform the citizens. All other activities would not have yielded any
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then specifically ask you: If you would have
22 gone there and would have told anyone that was about to place explosives
23 that it may be a crime to intentionally destroy a religious monument, why
24 do you think that would have had no effect?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time, we didn't
1 have access to that building, and we didn't specifically know which
2 persons were going to commit that act.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now you can go all around the mosque and tell
4 everyone what's going to happen in two or three hours, and you say,
5 "Well, we couldn't look as who was preparing the explosives at the
6 mosque." Is that what you are telling us?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did not have access to the
8 building. We had information that the explosion would happen, so we
9 wanted to inform and remove the population from the area to make sure
10 that they would leave and that they would be safe.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Why didn't you access to the building? Just open
12 the door and when it's locked, then force your way into it, isn't it?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not consider that option in
14 view of the fact that we were not part of those activities. We just
15 acted pursuant to the information, and we acted within our powers to
16 protect the inhabitants as much as we could.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And your powers did not include preventive action in
18 order to avoid that crimes are committed?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that did include preventative
20 action in any case. Police work also includes preventative actions, of
22 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I do not understand that it was not
23 within the remit of your powers.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right at the beginning, we were
25 clarifying things in order to prevent conflict of authority among the
1 institutions. We assumed that this was something that was being done by
2 members of the engineers unit. Then us interfering in that action would
3 constitute a conflict of authority and powers.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It being done by members of the engineers unit,
5 would that make it any less a crime?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it would not make it less
7 of a crime, but the institutions functioned each in its own area of
8 responsibility and authority.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you'd say if a clear announcement is made that
10 the army intends to commit any act which, at face value, would be a
11 serious crime, you would just say stay out of the way because a crime
12 will be committed? That's your position.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I'm talking about a
14 conflict of powers here. There's the institution of the army, the
15 institution of the Ministry of the Interior. Any interference in the
16 authority of the other --
17 JUDGE ORIE: You've told us that before. I would invite to you
18 answer my question, that was that if the army makes an announcement that
19 within a civilian area they are about to commit what at face value seems
20 to be a serious crime, that the only thing you do is to say to the
21 population stay out, stay away, I have no access to the mosque, although
22 you can open the door. But that's your position, that that's the
23 appropriate thing to do at that point in time. Is that how we have to
24 understand your testimony?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At that point in time, from
1 the point of view of the Ministry of Interior, all we could do was inform
2 the population that they should get out of the way. We were able only to
3 work on the aspect of the safety of the population.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If -- if the army would have announced that they
5 would kill three civilians on the market-place, would you also have gone
6 there and say to all the public, "Stay away, because you might be hit by
7 a bullet when the army is executing three civilians"? Would you have
8 done the same?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are hypothetical questions,
10 and we could continue with that endlessly, but what we're talking about
11 here is that it was our task and the only option to do what we did. Had
12 we had the information before, a day or two before, I probably would have
13 informed along the professional line the minister about it, and so on.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. Sir --
17 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I'm looking at the clock.
18 Perhaps I should invite you not to proceed.
19 MR. TRALDI: I'm in the Chamber's hands, of course.
20 JUDGE ORIE: How many -- where are we as time is concerned?
21 MR. TRALDI: I'd estimate about half a session, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Half a session. Then we'll take a break first.
23 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you
24 back after that break, and you may now follow the usher.
25 [The witness stands down]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes
2 to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
6 courtroom. There was one preliminary item about a translation, I think.
7 Perhaps so short that we could deal with that.
8 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution advises that it
9 has received the B/C/S translation for -- sorry, for MFI P6713,
10 65 ter 31192, which was marked for identification through Witness Indjic
11 on the 3rd of September 2014 at transcript page 25179. The translation
12 has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID R0116819RED B/C/S. If the
13 Defence are in agreement the Prosecution requests or will request that
14 the Court Officer be instructed to attach the translation and that the
15 document be admitted.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I hear from the Defence. My recollection
17 doesn't tell me right away whether it was only the translation that
18 caused the document to be MFI'd.
19 My colleagues confirm that that was the only reason.
20 Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the only reason, then the Registrar is
23 hereby instructed to attach doc ID R0116819RED B/C/S to document P6713,
24 MFI'd. Once it has been attached, P6713 is admitted into evidence under
1 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, since we have mother moment, we've
2 been informed that at transcript page 27642, line 14, on Thursday,
3 65 ter 31516 is recorded as having been admitted as Exhibit P6873 when,
4 in fact, it has been admitted as Exhibit P6872. So for the clarity of
5 the record.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. 27642, line 14. Yes,
7 Madam Registrar, could you please verify whether the transcript is
8 accurate. We are talking about 65 ter 31516, I think.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE ORIE: And whether it, indeed, is admitted as exhibit
11 number P6872.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honours. 65 ter 31516 should have
13 been assigned number P6873 which is assigned so in e-court for that
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ... first of all, we switch off all
16 unnecessary microphones. I think what Mr. Traldi was hinting at is that
17 it should have been admitted as P8 -- 6872 and that the transcript reads
18 that it was P6873 which is inaccurate, if I understand you well,
19 Mr. Traldi.
20 MR. TRALDI: That's correct and that's the information we, and I
21 think also the Chamber, have received from the Registry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then this will be verified.
23 Madam Registrar, if Mr. Traldi made a mistake, then you'll
24 certainly draw the attention of the Chamber to that fact. If not,
25 65 ter 31516 is recorded now as being admitted as P6872.
1 Witness, our apologies for dealing with administrative matters
2 when you entered the courtroom. Mr. Traldi will now continue his
4 Mr. Traldi.
5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Sir, a number of Muslims who were arrested in late May and early
7 June 1992 - Muslim civilians - were brought to the Vlasenica police
8 station; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you were aware at the time that some of the civilians who'd
11 been brought there were beaten; correct?
12 A. Well, look. There's a reference to beatings, mistreatments. I
13 heard about that only later through the electronic media, through
14 different witness statements. However, from the 2nd of May, 1992, the
15 police station really tried to work and to act in accordance with the
16 Law on Criminal Procedure. From the 21st of April until mid-May, say,
17 the 20th of May, it was --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, Witness, I'll stop you there. The
19 question was about your awareness of some of the civilians being taken to
20 the Vlasenica police station, that they were beaten.
21 Were you aware at the time? I take it from your answer that you
22 only learned about it later.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That answers the question.
25 If Mr. Traldi has any further questions on the matter, he'll
1 certainly put them to you.
2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 245.
3 Q. Sir, this will be another portion of one of your suspect
5 THE REGISTRAR: Could counsel repeat the page number again.
6 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, page 245.
7 Q. Now, you're being asked about civilians brought to the SJB here.
8 And at the top of the page, beginning at line 3, you're asked:
9 "All right. Were you aware of any mistreatment of these Bosniak
10 civilians when they were brought in for interrogation?"
11 You replied:
12 "See, I personally did not see that someone was being harassed.
13 But if I happened to hear from someone that someone was harassed, I
14 insisted that this should not have -- should not be happening. And I
15 requested from the duty policeman at the entrance to make a record of any
16 person coming in and to write a short -- a short description and also to
17 make a record when the person was -- when the person left the premises
18 or ... for this reason, of the possibility of misuse by the responsible
19 individuals. So this functioned in such a way."
20 Then you were asked:
21 "Okay. When you say 'harassed,' were you also aware that on --
22 at least on some occasions the civilians who were brought in were also
24 And you answered:
25 "See, I heard about this and I took measures right away."
1 Now, that's the truth what you said in your suspect interview,
2 that you did hear at the time that civilians were being beaten in the
3 Vlasenica police station; right?
4 A. Yes. But I intervened immediately in order to have this
5 situation overcome because, in fact, proper authority was established in
6 the station only the second half of May 1992. Basically until then,
7 various paragroups would barge in and it's possible that such incidents
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I take you back to one of your
10 previous answers. When you were asked about your awareness of people
11 being beaten when brought in, you said:
12 "Well, look. There's a reference to beatings, mistreatments,"
13 and "I heard about that only later through the electronic media, through
14 various witness statements ..."
15 That wasn't true. You learned about it right away and it was not
16 a truthful answer.
17 Do you have any explanation as why you told us that you only
18 learned it through the electronic media, whereas you now tell us five
19 minutes later that you were aware of it and that you immediately took
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, people were saying
22 that there were certain incidents and I did not see any of that.
23 However, I acted by way of prevention and took measures with a view to
24 prevent such situations from happening. Later on in the electronic media
25 as I followed statements made by different witness, I came to realise
1 that, indeed, such things had happened.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The question that was put to you was just about
3 awareness. Now you were told -- you were told at the time that this
4 happened, and even in one of your answers today, you said if it was
5 reported to you then you took action.
6 Let me just remind you that at least that answer, that you
7 learned about it only later, is certainly not the whole truth as you were
8 asked to tell us. Could you please keep that in mind not to seek evasive
9 answers but to directly answer the question what is -- that is put to
11 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. In terms of the actions you took, you informed your superiors at
14 the CSB of what you'd heard; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the policemen that were suspected to have participated were
17 sent to the VRS; right?
18 A. Yes. Measures were taken, those that were in envisaged under the
19 law at the time, and this was based on the agreement already reached
20 between the Main Staff of the VRS and the Ministry of Interior towards
21 the end of July 1992 --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come
23 closer to the microphone, says the interpreter.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. Sorry, sir, you're being asked to move towards the microphone so
1 the interpreters can hear you more clearly.
2 Now you said this was based on an agreement in late July 1992.
3 Is it your evidence that measures, the transfer of these policemen to the
4 VRS that were suspected of having beaten people at the SJB, were taken
5 after that agreement was in place?
6 A. Even before that, many measures were taken. That is to say,
7 policemen from the reserve force were dismissed, those who acted against
8 the law if I can put it that way. But at any rate, this agreement was
9 reached between the Main Staff of Republika Srpska and the MUP that all
10 paramilitaries be disbanded, handed over to the VRS, and expelled from
11 the areas where they were operating.
12 Q. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I again take you back to one of your
14 previous answers.
15 When I asked you about the answer you'd given previously, you
16 said, explaining your previous answer, you said:
17 "At that moment, people were saying that were certain incidents
18 and I did not see any of that. However, I acted by way of prevention and
19 took measures with a view to prevent such situations from happening."
20 Later on in the electronic media you said you came to realise
21 that indeed such things had happened.
22 From the answers you just gave, it appears that you knew already
23 at the time that such things were happening and that you did not only act
24 in way of prevention but that you also acted in a different way, acting
25 upon reports, taking measures perhaps to prevent such situations from
1 happening again but not prevent such things from happening only later
2 finding out that they had happened.
3 I again have to warn that you should speak the whole truth. Is
4 that clear to you?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear. And I am telling the
6 truth. That is to say, at that moment --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I just asked you whether that's clear to
8 you and you said it was.
9 Mr. Traldi.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. One of the reserve policeman at the Vlasenica SJB at the time,
12 Predrag Bastah, has been convicted after the war in Bosnia of crimes
13 against humanity for abusing prisoners at the SJB in late May and
14 beginning of June 1992; right?
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the name of the policeman again?
16 MR. TRALDI: Bastah, B-a-s-t-a-h.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. Sir, I'm now going to ask you about the take-over of Zaklopaca on
21 16 May 1992. Zaklopaca was in the municipality of Milici at the time;
23 A. Yes, in that newly established municipality.
24 Q. You heard the next day that 60 to 80 civilians were killed during
25 the take-over; right?
1 A. Yes, the next day I heard that an incident had taken place there
2 in Zaklopaca.
3 Q. And you heard that 60 to 80 Muslim civilians were killed; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now this was a crime; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this incident encouraged Muslims to leave the area of
8 Vlasenica and Milici, didn't it?
9 A. Yes. That's when the intensity of moving out was on the rise.
10 Q. Now when you explain in your statement why Muslims left Vlasenica
11 municipality, you don't mention that they started to leave in greater
12 numbers after other -- sorry, after other Muslim civilians were
13 massacred. You don't mention that in your statement, do you?
14 A. That's right. I did not deal with that problem because it was
15 within the scope of work of the Milici municipality; that is to say, a
16 different socio-political community.
17 Q. And because it was within the scope of work of Milici
18 municipality, it would have been their SJB, not yours, that was
19 responsible for investigating a crime; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. To your knowledge, no one was ever prosecuted or punished for
22 that crime, were they?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Just for the clarity of the record, that's yes, no one was
25 punished; correct?
1 A. Now whether they did carry out investigations, I don't know. But
2 I know what the epilogue is: No one was punished.
3 Q. I want to ask you now about a mass murder outside of Nova Kasaba
4 in May 1992. About 25 Muslims were killed there; right?
5 A. Yes, I found out about that later too.
6 Q. When you say "later," this was on television within a day or two
7 it happening; right?
8 A. Yes, precisely.
9 Q. And the victims were being taken out of Bratunac by bus escorted
10 by the Bratunac police?
11 A. Yes. As far as I know, yes.
12 Q. They were killed by paramilitaries from a group called the
13 Vukovar Detachment; right?
14 A. Also on the basis of certain knowledge, yes.
15 Q. Now, you never saw a report or a bulletin about this crime, did
17 A. I did not.
18 Q. And to your knowledge, this crime hasn't been prosecuted either,
19 has it?
20 A. As far as I know. But again, I'm saying that that was under the
21 Milici police station. Now whether they took certain measures, I don't
23 Q. There were a number of take-overs of Muslim villages in Vlasenica
24 in late May 1992; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The -- a battalion of the VRS Birac Brigade took part; right?
2 A. Well, there are two periods. In this first period until sometime
3 in June while the JNA was there, in the villages that were being
4 disarmed, the newly established Territorial Defence took part as well as
5 the units of the JNA. Later on when the Army of Republika Srpska was
6 established, there were certain activities in accordance with the plan of
7 the Army of Republika Srpska.
8 Q. You just said June -- or the JNA was there till June. You
9 testified earlier today that the Novi Sad Corps left on May 19th and its
10 equipment and personnel that stayed became part of the VRS Birac Brigade.
11 That's the truth; right?
12 A. That's right, that's right.
13 Q. Now the way these operations would work would be that people
14 would be called with megaphones to come to a certain spot in the village
15 to surrender their weapons; right?
16 A. Yes. That is to say, when we are speaking about the Territorial
17 Defence and the JNA, yes.
18 Q. And also the VRS; right? After May 19th.
19 A. Yes. Then the Territorial Defence was abolished and the Army of
20 Republika Srpska was established.
21 Q. Now, police officers from SJB Vlasenica would make a list of the
22 weapons that had been surrendered and take them away; right?
23 A. Yes, that was the task of the police. Since the police keep
24 records of weapons, then these collected weapons were supposed to be
25 recorded and stored in a certain storage area in the public security
2 Q. To ensure the police were there, the army would inform your SJB
3 by fax the day beforehand; right?
4 A. Yes, that's this period until the 19th of May.
5 Q. And during the operation, the army would call the police by radio
6 to come take the weapons; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You said you were notified by fax until the 19th of May. How
9 were you notified when it was the VRS conducting the operations?
10 A. Later when the VRS was established, institutions were established
11 of the VRS and the Ministry of Interior. Then on the basis of requests
12 and when necessary, the VRS would send a request to us stating that they
13 needed certain forces, some policemen. My task was to ask the
14 Ministry of Interior, the chief of the centre, for approval and to send
15 these policemen who would then be placed under the command of the
16 military unit in charge in the place where they would be stationed.
17 Q. You say placed under the command. The technical term for that is
18 resubordinated; right?
19 A. Precisely.
20 Q. Sir, I want to discuss one such take-over in particular, the
21 take-over of Drum. That was at the very beginning of June 1992; right?
22 I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the
24 A. Yes. As for the village of Piskavica Drum and the take-over
25 there, there was this operation carried out on 29th of April that was
1 carried out by the Territorial Defence and the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 The other activity took place sometime in the beginning of June. I
3 cannot say exactly. The police did not take part in that. However,
4 later on, I acquired some concrete information.
5 Q. So the activity in the beginning of June, that was a VRS
6 operation; right?
7 A. I cannot remember exactly whether the activity was the activity
8 of the VRS or paramilitaries, because at that time they still existed in
9 the territory and their aim was to loot and so on and so forth. On the
10 following day I did hear, though, that an incident had taken place there.
11 MR. TRALDI: Could we go into private session, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
13 [Private session]
11 Page 27700 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. TRALDI:
3 Q. And here this is again part of one of your suspect interviews.
4 MR. TRALDI: And I think actually for the clarity of the record
5 if we could have the previous page. And not to be broadcast, please.
6 Q. So you can see that you're being asked here about the incident in
7 Drum. Looking, beginning at line 29, you're asked -- sorry, beginning at
8 line 24:
9 "Did you investigate this killing incident?"
10 And you say:
11 "See, a report was made about this but it was very difficult to
12 find out any information about the perpetrators."
13 You were asked:
14 "Who did you submit the report to?"
15 You answer:
16 "I forwarded the report to the centre what happened, that there
17 was this incident."
18 MR. TRALDI: And if we could turn to the next page.
19 Q. As we do, "the centre" refers to the CSB Romanija Birac; right?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Now, beginning here with your answer at line 6, you say:
22 "I didn't take to him. I informed him and it was requested for
23 this case to be investigated."
24 You are asked:
25 "By who?"
1 And you say:
2 "But usually any act, if we had possibilities, we tried to
3 document for it. But I don't think we were able to do anything special
4 on this issue because the intensive fighting started. So this was more
5 or less -- we tried to talk to the military police, for them to get
6 involved in it ..."
7 Now, that was the truth what you said in your suspect interview;
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And the military police that you talked to were from the
11 Vlasenica Battalion of the Birac Brigade; right?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. So I'd put to you you were informing them because your
14 information indicated that the military had been responsible for this
15 operation. That's true, isn't it?
16 A. It's true, the police did not take part in this. It was either
17 the army or the paramilitary. So we moved along in two tracks in order
18 to try to find the perpetrators.
19 Q. I'm going to turn now to some questions about Susica camp.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one question for the witness.
21 Were the paramilitaries also within the competence of the
22 military police?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The paramilitaries remained
24 after the formation of the Army of Republika Srpska. These were groups
25 that did not wish to join the Army of Republika Srpska and they still
2 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that the military police would not
3 investigate them because they were not subordinated to the military?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We also tried to inform the
5 military police and we also tried to carry out certain steps in order to
6 find out who committed this. Because as I say, the paramilitary groups
7 definitely existed until the 27th or the 28th of July when the decision
8 was made to subordinate all groups of that kind.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Who would then investigate in the meantime any
10 crimes committed by the paramilitaries?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As an institution as the Ministry
12 of Interior we recorded all such occurrences and conducted investigations
13 to the extent that we were able to at that point in time. However, the
14 Army of Republika Srpska in their investigating institutions were the
15 ones to whom we forwarded all the criminal reports that we believed would
16 fall under their jurisdiction. So we also tried to do it in that way.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So sending to the military police meant that you
18 considered it at least likely that the military -- that it was useful to
19 investigate whether the military were responsible for the incidents.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We would look to see if they were
21 members of any of the already-formed units, in which case we would then
22 seek to have the army activated in this respect.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And what did you find out about the incident
24 Mr. Traldi asked you about, as to who were most likely the perpetrators?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't get very far. I've
1 already said that. We conducted the on scene investigation, established
2 the facts, and then opened an investigation marking it as an unidentified
3 perpetrator. So as far as the public security station is concerned, that
4 was it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But, nevertheless, you found it useful to send all
6 your information to the military police.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI: Could we go into private session, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
11 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. As I said a few moments ago I'm going to turn to Susica camp, and
10 first I want to clarify one point in your statement. In paragraph 50 you
11 discuss activities to transfer Muslims from Susica to Bijeljina. When
12 you say Bijeljina, you mean Batkovic camp; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Batkovic camp was run by the VRS; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, were you ever at Susica yourself?
17 A. "Nee" [No interpretation].
18 Q. Why not?
19 A. Well, first of all, I did not consider that a camp because it had
20 its humanitarian nature as well for a certain period. Then I personally
21 did not agree about the existence of any camp in the Vlasenica area, so I
22 took some measures at different levels in order to have that thing
23 transferred out of there and to have those people sent, if we're talking
24 about civilians, to send them to the Federation, or if they were
25 prisoners of war to send them to Batkovic. Because that is from where
1 the exchanges were carried out later.
2 Q. Now, you say at first that you didn't consider it a camp because
3 it had its humanitarian nature as well for a certain period. And then
4 you say that you did not agree about the existence of a camp in the
5 Vlasenica area. So you'd agree, wouldn't you, that even if wasn't a camp
6 at first, it certainly became one?
7 A. Yes. Later pursuant to a specific order it became defined as a
9 Q. That's the order you discuss in your statement from
10 Svetozar Andric on the 31st of May, 1992; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'll need about another ten minutes
13 with the Chamber's indulgence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I just asked for the time report, Mr. Traldi. You
15 apparently read my mind. I'll first wait for the result.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. TRALDI:
18 Q. Now, the warden there, Veljko Basic, was a retired police officer
19 who was mobilised into the TO; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the Susica facility, which had been a TO facility, came under
22 the control of the Birac Brigade when the VRS was formed; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution please have Exhibit P193.
25 Q. Now, this is an assessment of the guards service, and it's dated
1 June 1992.
2 MR. TRALDI: If could we have page 3 in both languages.
3 Q. This is an assessment of the danger to buildings in Susica from
4 attack on them. Do you agree we're discussing the same buildings, the
5 same Susica facility you describe in your statement?
6 A. Yes. The analysis is a result of the order that we mentioned.
7 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 4, the third paragraph from
8 the bottom.
9 Q. We see a note about the impossibility of any disinformation or
10 cover-up measures, and it mentions the number and structure of prisoners.
11 It's referring to them as prisoners because by this time clearly it was a
12 camp; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Turning to page 9 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S,
15 Major Slobodan Pajic is issuing a directive on the work of guards
16 support. Directing your attention to point 9, he writes:
17 "Regarding any unclear matters, contact the prison warden, chief
18 of the Vlasenica SJB, and the 4th Battalion Vlasenica Command."
19 Were you contacted by the guards at Susica camp about any unclear
21 A. This is here because in the event of an attack or any problems in
22 the building, in the camp, all these institutions would have to be
23 informed because they are the ones that could provide help and
24 protection. So the guards were not obliged to report to or inform the
25 public security station.
1 Q. Setting aside their obligations, you did hear in 1992 about
2 beatings and killings at Susica; right?
3 A. I did find out that there were some incidents and such
5 Q. You reported those to CSB Chief Cvijetic; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now you didn't investigate them because you believed them to be
8 in the jurisdiction of the army; correct?
9 A. Yes, precisely.
10 Q. But you did inform the VRS of these incidents; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, turning to the departure of Muslims from Vlasenica, I'll
13 just have one brief question.
14 By the time the mosque was destroyed in August 1992, almost all
15 the Muslims were gone from Vlasenica; right?
16 A. For the most part, yes.
17 Q. And you mention in your statement the municipality issuing
18 documents on the -- on certificates for leaving the municipality. The
19 reason Serbs had to get such a paper was to prevent them from avoiding
20 military service; right?
21 A. Correct. They had to have a certificate from the Secretariat for
22 National Defence.
23 Q. As Muslims left the municipality, other Serbs moved in; right?
24 A. Yes. The intensity with which the flow of Serbs arriving from
25 other locations varied, but by that time, there was already a
1 considerable number of refugees there from other areas.
2 Q. And a body in the municipality assigned them to abandoned houses
3 and flats; right?
4 A. Yes. A decision was reached - I don't know what the document was
5 called - a commission was formed, which was now temporarily assigning
6 abandoned apartments and houses.
7 Q. Finally, sir, on the 22nd of October, 2002, you stopped working
8 in the police because you were not certified by the International Police
9 Task Force, or IPTF; right?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And this was because based on a review of your war time record
12 and the information available to them, they had information suggesting
13 that you'd sent persons detained at the Vlasenica police station to the
14 Susica camp; right?
15 A. That is what was said in the reasons, statement of reasons, but I
16 did not have the opportunity to prove otherwise, and -- or to disprove
17 it, so that this sanction is still in force to this day.
18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi. Just managed to get -- to
21 stay within the two and a half hour's estimate.
22 We'll take a break first before -- Mr. Stojanovic, before you'll
23 re-examine the witness if at least there's any need to re-examine the
24 witness. Is there?
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I
1 will require about ten minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take those ten minutes after the break.
3 And your next witness is stand by?
4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, he is.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break.
6 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in
7 20 minutes.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the
14 Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has been informed about some
15 problems you have with the uploading into e-court of some of the
16 documents in relation to the next witness.
17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I can't say that we're very happy with it but let's
19 work on the basis of hard copies exceptionally and then later on the
20 documents will be uploaded into e-court. I do understand that the booths
21 have received hard copies of everything you want to use and that hard
22 copies are available for the Judges as well.
23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Under those circumstances, let's not make too much
25 fuss about it, but --
1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I can inform you that we did our part.
2 So the Tribunal staff was not able to upload it into the system.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I then -- we know what the time-limits are and
4 that might have come a bit late. But, again, let's try to avoid it to
5 happen again, but let's work on the basis of what we have.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to re-examine the
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours, one more
11 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Good day.
13 A. Good day.
14 Q. I have just a few questions that I would like to put to you. In
15 the cross-examination you talked about how on the 19th of April 1992,
16 immediate danger of war was declared in the Vlasenica municipality.
17 What I want to ask you is this: Could you please tell us who
18 made the decision to declare the immediate danger of war?
19 A. This decision was made by the Crisis Staff on the basis of their
20 assessment of the crisis situation. Already in that time the
21 institution's either executive power or judicial ones did not operate.
22 The situation was more difficult and the interethnic relations were not
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his last
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. If I can just ask you to repeat the last sentence because it was
3 not recorded in the transcript.
4 A. Interethnic safety, security was disrupted, interethnic
5 relations. And the institutions did not function, the judiciary and the
6 executive bodies were not functioning.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the only question you asked the
8 witness is who took that decision. Paragraph 17 of the statement reads:
9 "The decision on declaring immediate threat of war was made by
10 the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Vlasenica."
11 Why ask the witness what is already in his statement you have
12 tendered yourself into evidence? Try to be focused.
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That was just
14 a queue for what the witness had already spoken about.
15 Could we now please have P6874 in e-court. P6864 in e-court.
16 Q. Please take a look at this document. It's in front of you,
17 Mr. Witness. I shall put a question to you related to this document.
18 A. There's no document.
19 Q. In paragraph II of this decision on imminent threat of war, there
20 is a reference inter alia to these reasons that you had referred to, but
21 also there is a reference to a large number of armed citizens.
22 My question: Is that your knowledge, namely, that in April 1992
23 in the area of the municipality of Vlasenica there were many armed
25 A. Yes. There was a large number of armed citizens because weapons
1 were procured in different ways.
2 Q. Thank you. When you spoke about the decision on disarmament of
3 the members of the public security station in Vlasenica, active and
4 reserve, did you receive at any point in time, in writing or orally, any
5 kind of instructions on disarming a group of policemen as opposed to some
6 other group on the basis of their ethnicity?
7 A. On the basis of documents that I found at the public security
8 station when I took over my duties, I did not come across such a
10 Q. Thank you. As for the questions that were put to you today
11 during the cross-examination by the Prosecution, you mentioned military
12 operations or military actions. What do you specifically mean when you
13 say "military operation"?
14 A. As for military operations, at that time they were called
15 military actions, these are activities of the Army of Republika Srpska in
16 the areas that were in jeopardy or, rather, areas that were within their
18 Q. In these military actions, could it happen that some volunteer
19 units could take part in the beginning of the war or paramilitary units
20 and during the war police units as well?
21 A. Yes. It would always happen up until the period when these
22 paramilitary units were expelled. How do we put this? Planned military
23 actions of the Army of Republika Srpska, co-ordinated with the police,
24 they would be followed by certain paramilitary groups that committed
25 crimes and that were out of control.
1 Q. In the area of the village of Drum, before these military
2 activities, were there any incidents in terms of weapons being used,
3 gun-fire being opened, lack of control in the territory of that village?
4 A. The village of Drum is a village that is directly by the
5 outskirts of the municipality of Vlasenica. In the previous period there
6 was a staff there that had been established by the former chief of the
7 Territorial Defence, Ferid Hodzic. He organised groups. Now, was it the
8 Patriotic League or the Green Berets? And they had this location there,
9 a check-point, and they often taunted the citizens of Vlasenica and
10 opened fire at them.
11 Q. The question is how you learned about that.
12 A. Police patrols. We had learned that a group had been established
13 there, headed by Ferid Hodzic who later on went to Cerska; that is to
14 say, he became an official commander. In that period from that
15 check-point that they used to check the Serb population, the village of
16 Svetoke [phoen] is on the other side of Drum, very often in the evening
17 they would use tracer bullets and fire at Vlasenica.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you a bit more precise on what
19 was learned when exactly and -- because you're -- apparently are linking
20 this to the Drum incident and therefore we need to know exactly how your
21 questions link to what the Prosecution asked about.
22 So could you please find detailed information on the matter
23 rather than general information on the presence of groups.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So, Witness, this information that you spoke of a moment ago,
1 could you please tell the Trial Chamber when were these incidents
2 recorded and when did all this happen?
3 A. These incidents, these provocations against Vlasenica, coming
4 from Drum, they date back to the period even before the 21st of April.
5 Q. Were weapons used from the village of Drum towards the town of
6 Vlasenica after April and up until June 1992?
7 A. Yes. That is to say, very often there were provocations,
8 especially at night-time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us one example, some detail, about
10 one specific provocation, what kind of provocation, what type of weaponry
11 was used, what was done about it, whether there were any victims.
12 Could you give us one example and to elaborate on that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part this happened at
14 night-time. And I've already said that the village of Drum is close to
15 Vlasenica. There were provocations in --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- Witness, you're doing now the same as you
17 did before: There were provocations.
18 Give us one clear example where, at what time, what happened,
19 what then was the response, what's the base -- the source of your
20 knowledge? One specific example, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I cannot refer to a
22 specific date, but I know that it was repeated night after night, every
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. According to the information that you received, until when did
2 this check-point exist? The one that made it impossible for the
3 population to pass through the village of Drum.
4 A. On the basis of the security assessment of the
5 then-Territorial Defence of Vlasenica, newly established, there was this
6 activity that was carried out together with the JNA on the 29th of April.
7 Then this check-point was neutralised.
8 Q. I shall end with the following question: At any point in time,
9 did you receive information as to who called the police - and from
10 where - to speak about the activities of the -- concerning the
11 destruction of the mosque in Vlasenica, if you know that?
12 A. I cannot recall where this information came from. Was it from
13 the command of the battalion or something similar to that, I cannot
14 recall exactly.
15 Q. Mr. Djuric, thank you on behalf of the Defence. We have no
16 further questions for you.
17 A. Thank you, too.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
19 Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness?
20 MR. TRALDI: No, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, since the Chamber also has no further
22 questions for you, this concludes your evidence in this court. I'd like
23 to thank you very much for coming to The Hague. It's a long journey.
24 And I'd also like to thank you for having answered all the questions that
25 were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I would wish you a
1 safe return home again.
2 You may follow the usher.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ORIE: The next witness may be escorted into the courtroom.
6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I actually have a preliminary before he
7 is brought in.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You have a preliminary. Then please raise it right
9 away, Mr. Weber.
10 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
11 On Saturday 1 November 2014, the Prosecution received an 18-page
12 proofing note for the next witness. In this proofing note the
13 Prosecution was informed that the Defence was redacting the entirety of
14 18 paragraphs and parts of nine other parts following the Prosecution's
15 objections to the lack of foundation for the witness's knowledge of
16 certain information in and absence of relevance.
17 The Prosecution would like to put on the record that it maintains
18 its position with respect to the remaining paragraphs as communicated in
19 its response of 14 October 2014.
20 The Prosecution further notes that the proofing note is
21 essentially a new statement that goes beyond the matters opposed by the
22 Prosecution. We would oppose the use or admission of the proofing note
23 during the testimony of this witness. However, we do understand that the
24 Defence may wish to lead additional evidence based on our previous
25 objections to further establish the basis of knowledge for the witness's
1 factual knowledge of the remaining paragraphs if relevant and not
2 consisting of the witness's opinions. Because of this, we would not
3 oppose this being done viva voce. However, we would be -- oppose it in
4 the form of a proofing note which does now go into other matters, so like
5 what the President of Argentina did and so forth.
6 We would also note that the proofing note discloses information
7 to the Prosecution based on the statement of another, and we also at this
8 time have a significant inability related to this information which
9 supposedly comes from another individual in another individual's
10 statement. During the first recess today, the Defence did give us a copy
11 of this other person's statement which is 56 pages long and not
12 translated. This is rather difficult for us to -- to digest with such
13 late notice.
14 So I just want to put those matters on the record. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: They are hereby on the record.
16 Mr. Lukic, I must say that when I read in your new text lines
17 like "from the media it become common knowledge that this and this
18 happened," that, of course, is replacing one sweeping statement by
19 another one and, of course, source of knowledge means that we have
20 something more than what people read in newspapers. But again, it's
21 maybe too much to -- to deal with right away. Let's see how your
22 examination of the witness develops. And whenever decisions on whether
23 or not to admit the old statement or the information report are still
24 pending -- let's see how it develops, but I can't say that I have no
25 understanding for the concerns expressed by the Prosecution. And that's
1 true for the whole of the Chamber.
2 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, just if that ends the matter I'd just
3 request to be excused if it's a convenient time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the usher is already at the door-step to escort
5 you out, Mr. Traldi. And perhaps if he could then escort the witness
6 into the courtroom at the same time, it would be appreciated.
7 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski, I suppose.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you
12 make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to. May I invite you
13 to make that solemn declaration.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: NEDJO VLASKI
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
19 Mr. Vlaski, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find
20 him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
21 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. But with your leave I would
23 just shortly respond to the objections just heard from the Prosecution.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not in the presence of the witness.
25 MR. LUKIC: He does not speak English. If you want, he can
1 remove his headphones.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we would first have to establish that, that he
3 doesn't speak any English. In view of his education I thought perhaps he
5 But could we -- I think the Chamber is quite willing to hear, but
6 I also said that after Mr. Weber expressed some concerns that the Chamber
7 would see how it develops.
8 Is there any way that we could start with the examination of the
9 witness now and that you would further respond after that.
10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I have to know how to proceed, whether
11 to go into details or just to offer the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: There one simple basic rule, Mr. Lukic, and that is,
13 ask for facts known to the witness. That's the reason why I gave this
14 short quote, to ask a witness what happened. So clear source of
15 knowledge, clear facts. That's what assists the Chamber. Is that clear
16 enough guidance for you?
17 MR. LUKIC: I think, Your Honour, that it will be -- become
18 clear. I'm trying to find it in this proofing note as well what kind of
19 source of information this gentleman used performing his duties, so I
20 don't want to jump ahead. But also I would like to tell and emphasise
21 that this 18-page --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. LUKIC: -- information report is probably more than half is
24 cut from the statement just for better understanding on which part of the
25 statement the comments are directed to when there is more comments on one
1 paragraph. So -- and we have -- I have with me six information reports
2 offered by the Prosecution into the evidence. I have their numbers here
3 if Your Honours want to hear them. This is -- this is not new in this
4 trial, that we introduce information reports as -- as an evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm -- I'm not against it. Perhaps --
6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah --
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you are not aware of the level of unsourced
8 knowledge and opinion evidence -- let's not forget this is a witness of
9 facts, and if I then read for these circumstances I can say that the fate
10 of Yugoslavia was decided by, that's opinion. Again, I said we'll give
11 you the benefit of waiting and see how it develops. And my guidance is
12 facts, clear source of knowledge, and then we'll see what happens.
13 MR. LUKIC: But if I may, Your Honour, only in that same
14 paragraph you would find that he was actually providing security for one
15 of those meetings he mentioned.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And does that mean that the fate of Yugoslavia
17 was decided by. I mean, as a security detail you can't know what
18 caused -- what was it that -- basis of the fate of Yugoslavia. These are
19 general sweeping statements again. And even if you're there as security
20 detail, that doesn't make an expert which could give these type of
22 Again, you have the benefit of our doubt. I would say use it.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. For the record, could you please state your name and surname
6 A. Nedjo Vlaski.
7 Q. Sorry, what is it that you have in front of you?
8 A. Just the statement that I signed.
9 Q. Could you please hand it over to the Prosecution so that they
10 could take look at it and see that there's nothing else there.
11 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, there is more in his hand, if you don't mind.
12 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, it appears to me to be a B/C/S copy of
13 the proposed redacted statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whenever you want to consult it, you should
15 ask permission to do so. So you can have it nearby but if you put it --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can manage without the statement.
17 There's no problem.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's available. If you need to consult, just
19 tell us and explain why and then we'll decide on it.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Can we have on our screens 1D1768A.
23 Actually, probably we have a problem with the system this
24 morning. That's the hard copy we distributed to everybody in and around
25 courtroom. So we'll probably have to continue with hard copy of this
1 statement, Your Honours, so then the witness should have his hard copy
2 with him at the same time.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, the redacted version was already
4 filed, so it must be in the system. We received it morning as a filing.
5 MR. LUKIC: I -- I was told that it's not in the system, so if it
6 is, I would be happy to have it on our screens.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assist in any way?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I do not have the document in
9 e-court. However, I can try and see if can I find the filing that
10 Judge Fluegge --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it was attached to the filing. To that extent
12 it should be somewhere in the system. If it's possible to show it on the
13 screen, that would be appreciated.
14 THE REGISTRAR: I will do my best, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 For the time being, the witness can consult his version of the --
17 of his statement because I take it that you want the attestation --
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be made.
20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please take a copy of the
22 statement which was returned to you.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could you please take your statement and I'm going to put
25 questions to you that are based on the statement.
1 Did you provide a statement to the Defence of General Mladic at a
2 certain point in time?
3 A. Yes, I did give them a statement.
4 Q. On the first page of the statement, do you see your signature?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Do you recognise the signature?
7 A. That is my signature.
8 Q. Could you please look at the last page of your statement. And do
9 you see a signature there?
10 A. Yes, I see a signature and the date of the signature.
11 Q. Whose signature is it and who put the date there?
12 A. Yes. This is my signature, and I wrote the date.
13 Q. Now we will look at the redacted statement. After it was
14 redacted, are the contents of the statement accurate and truthful,
15 according to your best recollection?
16 A. Yes, this is what I was able to confirm. At the time when I gave
17 the statement, everything was truthful and accurate and comported with
18 the facts as I recalled them.
19 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you
20 provide the same answers?
21 A. I would give the same answers to some questions, and I would
22 perhaps provide more detailed answers to some questions because I
23 acquired more detailed information on those questions since I provided
24 the original answers.
25 Q. Thank you. On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, did you speak with
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. What did we do on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?
4 A. We trimmed the statement that I gave during preparation. We
5 redacted certain parts of the statement, and we provided certain
6 clarifications in terms of the exhibits or proof that we had at our
8 Q. I'm going to put all these questions to you before I tender the
9 statement and the information report. What kind of sources for your
10 information did you used when you were carrying out your duties?
11 A. According to the rules of operation of our service, all available
12 sources --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the basis of the Prosecution's
15 objections weren't necessarily what the generic general sources of
16 information were but they're specific facts in the statement, and what
17 we're looking for is what the witness's foundation is for those facts.
18 Not some broad description of what an intelligence service has at its
19 disposal. I just want to state that for the record.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that that is not your primary concern.
21 At the same time, the Chamber would like the witness to answer the
22 question, the generic question. Not to say that the problem has been
23 resolved by that but we'd nevertheless would like to hear the answer of
24 the witness.
25 Could you please continue your answer. You were stopped when you
1 said, "According to the rules of operation of our service, all available
2 sources ..." Could you continue from there because we interrupted you?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All available, formal, legal
4 documents, public sources, all communications concerning persons of
5 security interest were permitted and were the subject of the work of our
6 service, including some specific methods and means the service uses, like
7 gathering information through operatives, associates, gathering
8 information through methods which perhaps violate secret private
9 communications over the telephone, through carrying out illegal searches,
10 following subjects, and all the other means that are at the disposal of a
11 service such as mine.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic. We've heard the answer of the
14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to put on the record that, in the
16 meantime, Madam Registrar was able to put the document, the statement on
17 the record, we see it in front of us.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It would hopefully help a
19 lot with today's trial.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We would offer, Your Honour,
22 both the statement and information report provided by this witness and
23 having in mind that information report is confidential since there are
24 some names mentioned this witness wants to protect, not to put them in
25 any kind of danger. We'd offer both of those documents into evidence.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
2 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution does have objections I can rehash
3 them. I've made them a record already. If -- I leave it to counsel's
4 whether he wants to further remedy anything that we've made known as our
5 objections during the course of their objections -- course of our
6 objections. Otherwise, we're willing to have the material MFI'd at this
7 point in time with the -- it being very clear that we made our objections
8 known and counsel is having the opportunity to remedy them during their
9 examination if they so wish.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Both documents will be MFI'd.
11 Mr. Lukic, the report, the information report provisionally under
12 seal, the fact that the witness wants to protect certain names doesn't
13 mean that we are following that suggestion but for the time being it will
14 be under seal.
15 Madam Registrar, the numbers would be.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the redacted statement that has
17 65 ter number 1D1768A will receive exhibit number D735.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D735 is MFI'd.
19 THE REGISTRAR: And, Your Honours, the information report will
20 receive number D736. However, I'm not clear on the number it will
21 receive in e-court once it's uploaded.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Number D736 is reserved for the information
23 report which is confidential and once uploaded will be there.
24 Mr. Lukic, just for your information, you asked for more
25 guidance, and I said focus on facts and source of knowledge. I'll just
1 allude to one example of your information statement.
2 If I look at the comment to paragraph 43 of the statement, it
3 reads: "This paragraph is self-explanatory."
4 Yes? Now paragraph 43 is without any source of knowledge and
5 gives almost exclusively opinion evidence and hardly any facts. Keep
6 that in mind if you think that the matter has been resolved by your
7 information report. And it's just one example that I give to you. And
8 if you would read it, it's all opinion.
9 But I'll let you -- please proceed as you consider appropriate.
10 We'll later decide on admission of the statement. Also in view of how
11 your examination-in-chief has developed and has clarified issues.
12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, in paragraph 8 of information report, we
13 said that all information this witness gathered and presented in his
14 statement is strictly work-related. So, in paragraph 43 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. LUKIC: -- he was part of that system and his job was to
17 follow such a developments. He told me, if you want, you can ask him
18 what he told me, actually, but it's obvious emanating from his work.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you read what remains from
22 paragraph 43, "The legitimate interest and goals by the Serbian political
23 representatives," that's opinion. Isn't it? Whether it's legitimate or
24 not, what exactly their interest was is not explained.
25 MR. LUKIC: If you --
1 JUDGE ORIE: These calls were without effect.
2 MR. LUKIC: If you read the whole statement, you would find what
3 the Serbs were trying to protect: Their right to stay -- to have the
4 same status they had before.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Legitimate is an opinion, is a legal opinion,
6 Mr. Lukic. And if at the same time you say they were subjected to
7 various accusations and pressure, this was a case of tendentious
8 depictions of the political and security situation wherein only the
9 Serbian side was negatively portrayed, that's all opinion. If you are
10 not aware of that, Mr. Lukic, you have a problem during your
11 examination-in-chief, which you are now about to start.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will read a short
14 statement summary of this witness, and then I will have a few questions
15 for him.
16 [No interpretation]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic provide the interpreters with a
18 copy of the summary, please.
19 MR. LUKIC: It's in B/C/S. I can provide it to the interpreters,
20 no problem, but I will need the help of the usher.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And if you only have the B/C/S version, would you
22 please slowly read it, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After completing his education, he
24 started his police career in the City Secretariat of the Interior, in
25 Sarajevo on public security tasks. After a year, he was transferred to
1 the State Security Service where he worked on all types of assignments,
2 ranging from desk officer for operations equipment, inspector for
3 security background checks, security of buildings and persons, inspector
4 on internal affairs matters, and as chief of the SDB administration for
5 security of persons and buildings. Mr. Vlaski began to work in 1975.
6 Nedjo Vlaski will testify about the work of his service. He will
7 testify about monitoring of all types of nationalism in the former
8 Yugoslavia, as well as about the monitoring of the group Young Muslims, a
9 group whose member was Alija Izetbegovic, as well as the monitoring of
10 the trial conducted against this group in 1983 when the group's members
11 were convicted to prison sentences on charges as a well-organised group
12 that wanted to topple the constitutional system of the country and create
13 an ethnically pure Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 He will talk about the surveillance of specific persons,
15 including Alija Izetbegovic, after he was released from prison. Also, he
16 will talk about the establishment of the Party of Democratic Action, the
17 core of which was formed by members of the Young Muslims group and
18 religious officials of the Islamic community of Bosnia. The witness will
19 also speak about the actions of Alija Izetbegovic unrelated to any
20 institutions and also about the influence of the Sura, the Islamic
21 advisory council, on the functioning of the Party for Democratic Action
22 and the actions of Alija Izetbegovic.
23 Mr. Vlaski will also speak about the anti-constitutional
24 activities of Muslim and Croat politicians of Bosnia and Herzegovina
25 following elections which were held in 1990 aimed at the breakup of
2 So this was the gist of the description of the tasks that were
3 performed by Mr. Vlaski.
4 He will also testify about the wire-tapping of Serb cadres and
5 how it was conducted completely outside of the established system of
6 institutional checks and balances. The witness will also talk about how
7 Alija Izetbegovic managed to acquire almost complete control over all the
8 sectors of the police. Nedjo Vlaski will testify about the division in
9 the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the conflict broke out and
10 about the links of Muslim politicians with criminals in Sarajevo before
11 and after the conflict broke out. This intermingling of the Muslim
12 leadership in the police and criminals created a favourable ground for
13 the expulsion and killing of Serbs in Sarajevo. All of it began with the
14 unpunished killing of Nikola Gardovic who was in a wedding party in the
15 centre of Sarajevo whereby it was known who was the killer but the police
16 did not do anything about it. This continued with the killing of Serbian
17 policeman Pero Petrovic at the police station in Novo Sarajevo, who was
18 killed in front of his colleagues, Muslims, by the Green Berets. This
19 marked the open season on Serbs in Sarajevo.
20 The witness will also explain the manner in which Muslim police
21 officials armed Muslims and how they sent Muslim policemen for training
22 in Croatia.
23 That would be the summary for this witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. You have any further
25 questions for the witness? Unless you would rather leave that until
1 after the break and then --
2 MR. LUKIC: I -- I can break now. It's a convenient time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then how much time would you need after
4 the break?
5 MR. LUKIC: My plan was not to spend much time --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
7 MR. LUKIC: -- in leading this witness, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll -- and what do you mean by "not
9 much time"?
10 Mr. Weber.
11 MR. WEBER: I was deferring to your question, Your Honour.
12 MR. LUKIC: We have to hear two audio recordings, and I might,
13 during the break, find something from this informational report to go
14 through with the witness. So probably 15 minutes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine. We'll take a break.
16 We will -- yes, Mr. Weber.
17 MR. WEBER: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to -- there
18 is a number of objections the Prosecution did have and some of them were
19 a foundational nature. I did communicate them to the Defence last week.
20 If during the break if Mr. Lukic has any further information about those
21 matters, dates, and when these documents were authored, things of that
22 nature, I'd appreciate it just before I begin cross.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the Chamber explained that it will
24 usually not insist on -- on always to redact unsourced parts or --
25 et cetera but of course that the parties should be aware that if there
1 are no sources given for the knowledge of the witness, then of course the
2 probative value, if any at all, may not be -- may not be at a level the
3 party presenting that evidence might expect or wish.
4 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I may not have been clear.
5 I was talking about the associated documents. So --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I understood you.
7 MR. WEBER: Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, I was briefly addressing Mr. Lukic
9 as well who said that he would need some 15 minutes.
10 We take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: But, yes, first the witness should be escorted out
13 of courtroom.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break.
16 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber you're on your feet.
19 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 I just was reviewing the transcript over the break and I just --
21 it appears to me that there's been no 92 ter foundation established for
22 D736 marked for identification, the information report. I just wanted to
23 put that on the record.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you take care of that. Ask the
25 witness to read the statement, not the information report which -- I
1 don't know whether it's also available in the B/C/S or not. Is it?
2 MR. LUKIC: I'll ask him. We -- I read him word by word the
3 whole information report. We went word by word.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. LUKIC: We spent the whole Sunday on that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's not the best basis for a --
7 MR. LUKIC: All the Prosecution statements are read back to the
8 witnesses before they sign it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But they're always also available in a language that
10 witness can understand. Isn't it?
11 MR. LUKIC: Provided later. If you want me, I can provide later
12 to this with witness the same.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's -- we are now not talking about signatures
14 on the statements. We are talking about admission into evidence and an
15 attestation by the witness not before a signature but before admission
16 under Rule 92 ter. That's a different matter.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 MR. LUKIC: If I may, before the witness comes in --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
20 MR. LUKIC: And you can check it with the witness, if you wish
21 so. Actually, this English version is made from the Serbian version.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay but --
23 MR. LUKIC: Only not in this order and not this nicely put
24 everything together, but first recorded what the witness told me, then I
25 written this English version.
1 [The witness takes the stand]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's all done outside of court. We
3 cannot check in any way the accuracy of all that so, therefore,
4 Mr. Lukic -- and since the witness now also cannot read the English
5 version and since we most likely will not finish the testimony of the
6 witness today, you might find a solution overnight for that and then
7 present it tomorrow.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vlaski, again a question that has to do with
12 this report. How did you and I go through this report?
13 A. We went through it by analysing each and every paragraph in the
14 statement, and then on the basis of the facts that were set out in the
15 statement we provided a broader overview.
16 Q. Just a moment, please. Yesterday, on Sunday, how did we go
17 through this report that was written in English?
18 A. Well, we read the -- the statement and we looked at the evidence
19 that I had. That is to say, augmenting all of this through the evidence
20 that I had available to me.
21 Q. You said that you have some documents. Before you started
22 testifying, I came to see you during the break and I took three
23 documents. Do you have more documents in your possession?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if we are still with the information
25 report, this doesn't help. What we need to receive that report or the
1 content of that report in evidence is either to elicit it viva voce,
2 which would take hours, or to have it translated --
3 MR. LUKIC: I will --
4 JUDGE ORIE: And to seek the attestation of the witness to that
5 additional information. That's what we need. And there's -- how you
6 produced it, et cetera, is -- well, may explain something but is not fit
7 as the basis for admission into evidence. That's the issue.
8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
10 MR. LUKIC: I will abide by your guidance.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Vlaski, for example, if your working hours are from say,
14 8.00 a.m. until 4.00 p.m., if you hear some information that is of
15 interest to your service, say, 10.00 or 11.00, or 3.00 in the morning,
16 can you disregard that information?
17 A. From an operative point of view, everything information that is
18 of security interest has to be taken into account because this mosaic
19 about somebody's activity is put together on the basis of this minute
20 information that is gathered during the work of operatives.
21 Q. During your work, was following the media a permissible source of
23 A. In the rules of the security service, all the public sources of
24 information available were one of the methods of collecting information.
25 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you briefly --
1 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just before we get too far afield.
2 There were changes in the rules of security service if I recall at
3 different points in time. If we could just have some precision just
4 about what time of work, what period the witness is referring to?
5 Because he might have had some different assignments at different times?
6 JUDGE ORIE: How relevant is that? Whatever sources the office
7 would gather, the issue is whether those sources of knowledge are
8 sufficient for us. That's the issue. I mean, of course, you can read
9 newspapers and whether you want to prepare reports on the basis of
10 newspapers is fine. But, of course, what this Chamber has to do is to
11 evaluate the evidence and to see what role newspapers - and I'm not
12 saying none - but what role newspapers can play in our job to establish
13 the facts. That's the issue rather than the issue you just touched upon.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Q. [Interpretation] If you would receive some information through
17 the media, what was the procedure that would follow?
18 A. Well, all information that is of security significance is
19 compared to information that is obtained through other types of operative
20 work. It is used as a kind of guide-line.
21 Q. Mr. Weber, my colleague from the other side, put a question.
22 Could you be more specific in terms of when the media could be used as a
23 source of information? You worked in a certain period of time before the
24 war and then a different period of time after the war, and you were in
25 the same line of work. Did anything change? Was anything banned in the
1 meantime? Was anything done to disallow media?
2 A. Media are a very important source of information. They were used
3 in two different ways, in a two-sided manner, because the media are a way
4 in which both information and misinformation can be presented.
5 Q. Now let us go back to material sources. The documentation that
6 was available to the State Security Service in Sarajevo, where is it
7 today? Did it remain in Sarajevo or did you take it?
8 A. Well, there were several ways in which documentation was kept.
9 Older documents were kept at the Zlatiste facility as far as I know
10 because I was in charge of that facility when I was chief of the
11 department for providing security for persons and buildings. That is
12 where information from previous periods was stored. And then in
13 different safety boxes in the State Security Service offices, other
14 documents were stored. And then other documents, yet other documents
15 were kept in the analysis department of the security service.
16 Q. Let me just ask you something. Can you tell us what remained in
17 the hands of your service out of all of this, your service that remained
18 in the territory that was under Muslim forces control?
19 A. After military operations that ensued, some of these documents
20 were taken and part of the documents that were under the territory -- on
21 the territory of Republika Srpska authorities were kept there, whereas
22 the documents that were kept in facilities that were under the control of
23 the Muslim part of the area, that remained in their hands.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
25 be asked to speak slowly. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to speak more slowly.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. And do pause before answering my question.
5 Documentation that your service had, was it destroyed; and if so,
6 did you take part in that?
7 A. According to the rules of service, in certain periods of time
8 documentation is destroyed. Just before the first multi-party elections
9 were held, if I can put it that way, we had this thankless task to
10 destroy part of the documentation there for political reasons and some
11 other reasons; namely, that certain methods of work of the service and
12 certain documentation in respect of certain individuals before the
13 multi-party elections could be destroyed so that it would not be the
14 subject of certain manipulations.
15 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A vast amount of this documentation
17 was destroyed. I can say by way of illustration that I had three safes
18 in my office and lots of these materials that did not really have much
19 value and they were destroyed.
20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. For example, documentation that has to do with monitoring
22 Young Muslims, where is that? What do you think? Do you think it's
23 still there?
24 A. I know that this part of the documentation was stored at the
25 department for documents. Unfortunately, part of this documentation -
1 that is to say, the part that is on microfilm - was taken away unlawfully
2 by the chief of the State Security Service, Branko Kvesic, as he left the
3 service and as he went from Sarajevo to Mostar to the area of
4 Herceg-Bosna. Specific documentation about the activities of this group,
5 the Young Muslims, was on those premises, and I had direct insight into
6 that documentation before the multi-party elections were held.
7 May I explain why I had this insight? I can continue, if you
9 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to Mr. Lukic whether he puts questions to
10 you in this respect. And, again, Mr. Lukic, general statements do not
11 always help us very much. Rather, we'd like to know when the witness
12 says A or B, why he knew about A or B.
13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].
14 Q. You've heard what the Judge is interested in. Please tell us
15 when this happened, if you know, and explain what it is that you wish to
16 explain to us.
17 A. My superiors from the top of the security service, that is the
18 period before the multi-party elections were held, gave me the task of
19 looking into this documentation. On the basis of a cross-section that
20 was supposed to be made, the leadership of the service planned to take
21 certain measures of protection for operatives, inspectors, who did this
22 work because some revengism was to be expected from the newly established
23 authorities that, on the basis of our assessment, were supposed to come
24 precisely from those circles that had been the subject of our operations
1 Let me say by way of information that out of a few members of the
2 Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic was criminally prosecuted as well as
3 Fikret Abdic, Franjo Boras, and in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
4 Momcilo Krajisnik.
5 I did review the entire files and documents that referred to the
6 activities of The Young Muslims group who, headed by Alija Izetbegovic,
7 were convicted in the trial held in 1983, and based on my review of those
8 files, I had the opportunity to get to know numerous documents on that
9 topic that were in the file. I submitted a report so that the service
10 leadership could make a plan to protect the operatives, inspectors, who
11 took part in certain measures, searches, informative interviews,
12 investigations, or who were in any way would be possibly exposed as being
13 part of these activities.
14 I also know that a part of the documentation disappeared from the
15 department for documents. This particularly applies to the dossier of
16 Mr. Adil Zulfikarpasic who was a subject for many years of our work
17 because he took part in the actions of the democratic alternative that
18 was formed abroad for the purposes of working to change the system and
19 the organs of power in the SFRY.
20 Q. Could you please tell us exactly how you found out that the
21 dossier Zulfikarpasic disappeared?
22 A. This happened quite early on because Adil Zulfikarpasic when he
23 came to Yugoslavia tried to gain an access to that dossier through
24 certain connections in the country. However, there was some compromising
25 material from the dossier that was taken out of the file and passed on to
1 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, is there any way we could have some
4 context as to when this occurred?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic, apart from context, could you
6 please put your questions in such a way that we do not get long stories
7 which are, for us, not easy to link to what seems to be the core of this
8 case and the core of the statement of the witness.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. I'm closing to the end.
11 Q. [Interpretation] Are you able to tell us when this happened?
12 A. The disappearance of the file happened in 1991.
13 Q. And what is the source of your knowledge and do you know who
14 actually participated in the taking away of this dossier?
15 A. I do have some information. I don't have any proof though, so I
16 do have operative information as is the practice in our part of the
17 world, so it was information gained from sources that, based on operative
18 knowledge, were able to access such information.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap and
20 repeat the last two or three exchanges for purposes of interpretation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're overlapping with Mr. Lukic.
22 You told us - and I invite you to resume from there - you told us
23 that it was information gained from sources that, based on operative
24 knowledge, were able to access such information.
25 And could you please repeat what you said after that, unless
1 Mr. Lukic's interruption was meant to stop the witness.
2 MR. LUKIC: Oh, no. It wasn't.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No. Could you please resume on from there, Witness.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were our internal
5 conversations by operatives who at that time were working in the State
6 Security Service.
7 MR. LUKIC: Can we go to the private session, actually.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we now try to get an answer to the question.
9 Could you tell us what facts are known to you which would shed
10 any light on who were the ones who made that material disappear in 1991.
11 So what facts do you know, even if you gained the information
12 from operative sources?
13 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, exactly, that's why we have to go to the
14 private session. That's why he's reluctant.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's move into private session for the time
17 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
15 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, this concludes my direct examination of
16 this witness. And I don't know when we should deal with the documents.
17 MR. WEBER: We're in a position to deal with them now and it
18 might be useful to actually deal with them before cross-examination.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Documents now being the Defence exhibits for
20 Witness Vlaski. Let's go through them one by one. I think if I look at
21 the list, it starts with non-associated exhibits you want to tender, or
22 do you want to tender associated exhibits only?
23 MR. LUKIC: Associated exhibit and --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The first one is the redacted signed
25 statement and that's one that we have dealt with.
1 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the second and the third on my list are
3 P2984 and P2996 already in evidence. Which brings us to 1D03114, list of
5 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Objections.
7 MR. WEBER: Objection based on relevance. There is no time or
8 temporal context for this document and none has been established with the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
11 MR. LUKIC: This witness can provide us with that details but
12 it's obvious after the elections in 1990.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, that leaves still 24 years.
14 MR. LUKIC: It's only for the period after those elections.
15 That -- how the power was distributed.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And where in [Overlapping speakers] ...
17 MR. LUKIC: If it's not necessary -- [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Where in the statement did the witness comment on
21 JUDGE ORIE: What paragraph? Because for associated exhibits,
22 it's required that we can't understand the statement without the
24 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid we might use too much time. Then my
25 proposition to Your Honours is --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 MR. LUKIC: -- that the cross starts and I will prepare in which
3 paragraphs this was mentioned.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Now, Mr. Weber, I take it that you'll have certainly some
6 subjects in cross-examination which could you start before you -- before
7 you -- we have dealt with all the associated exhibits.
8 And, Mr. Lukic, would you carefully prepare the further
9 submissions on the admission of the associated exhibits. By the way,
10 Mr. Weber, I'm informed that -- well, that was a question by the Chamber,
11 that it's paragraph 48 which deals with this document.
12 MR. LUKIC: 48, yes. Now I have the list with the paragraphs.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You have them all? Then we can continue.
14 MR. LUKIC: Not all.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Not all. Then we'll skip it.
16 MR. LUKIC: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll ask Mr. Weber to start his
19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vlaski, you'll now be cross-examined by
21 Mr. Weber. You'll find him to your right. Mr. Weber is counsel for the
23 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:
25 Q. Just to finish up on a -- well, good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Since we were talking about the conversations you had with the
3 Defence over the weekend, I was just wondering yesterday, on Sunday,
4 when -- in your decisions with the Defence, did you make any
5 clarifications or corrections to information that you provided them on
6 the days before, on Friday and Saturday.
7 A. We just shortened it and perhaps some arguments that could
8 substantiate the facts that are mentioned in the statement.
9 Q. Okay. Do I understand correctly from your answer that there were
10 changes, then, that you made yesterday?
11 A. There were no changes. It's just that certain parts of the
12 opinions in the statement were made more specific in order to provide
13 more details about the sources of information and to substantiate the
14 number of documents that could back up the information. This is
15 information that I -- I do have.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, I'm afraid that we may not fully
17 understand each other or the witness might not understand you fully.
18 The issue raised by Mr. Weber is especially whether after you had
19 talked on Friday and on Saturday with your Defence, whether in your
20 discussions on Sunday anything was added or further explained or -- that
21 is what Mr. Weber would like to know.
22 Can you tell us whether in the continued conversation on Sunday
23 anything changed what had you dealt with on Friday and Saturday?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had a statement that I gave to
25 the Defence team, the statement that contains a number of the evidence
1 that would give an authentic form to my statement. So that is the
2 statement that I provided to the Defence team.
3 MR. WEBER:
4 Q. I'm not sure that we have clarified this. The precise issue that
5 I'm asking this for is because I have been provided with information from
6 the Defence that is dated the 1st of November, which is Saturday. I've
7 not received information from the Defence after Saturday. So then I'm
8 specifically asking you whether there -- during your conversations on
9 Sunday, yesterday, were there changes?
10 A. I did not add anything. All I wanted to do was to present the
11 documents that I have in my possession. I have them in my room. So I
12 wanted to present them in the sense that my attention was drawn to the
13 fact that parts of the statement needed to be redacted so that it would
14 gain evidentiary weight. So that was the thing that was done.
15 Q. Was there anything to the Defence that you indicated that you
16 needed to remove?
17 A. I did not think that anything needed to be removed from my
18 statement. I believe that that was my opinion, my position, about the
19 events that I am testifying about.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, I'm going to leave it for now. Maybe
22 tomorrow when the information report is uploaded I'd actually go into
23 that a little bit more.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 MR. WEBER: I don't think it's clear to the witness quite what
1 we're talking about.
2 Q. Sir --
3 MR. LUKIC: Sorry for interrupting, I think we were informed that
4 the information is uploaded into the system.
5 MR. WEBER: Okay.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's at least -- then we can everything on
7 our screens -- well, if you have another few questions --
8 MR. WEBER: Yeah.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- we have three minutes -- more minutes to go.
10 MR. WEBER:
11 Q. Sir, I just wanted to also -- before we break for the day, I was
12 wondering if I could ask you this afternoon or this evening before we
13 come back tomorrow if you could look at the first remaining
14 paragraphs before paragraph 96 and let us know tomorrow when we start
15 whether or not everything you describe in those paragraphs occurred
16 before April 1992. Do you understand that?
17 You don't have to do it now. I'm not asking you to go through
18 each paragraph right now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by the first remaining paragraphs
20 before paragraph 96?
21 MR. WEBER: I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is that everything that comes from 1 to 95?
23 MR. WEBER: Actually up to and including 96. And I belive now
24 that -- there are some redacted paragraphs, so forgive me if I did not
25 articulate that very well. But what I'm asking the witness to do is if
1 there's any way he could review what's in the redacted statement from
2 paragraphs 1 up to and including paragraph 96 and let us know tomorrow
3 morning when we start if everything he is describing occurred before
4 April 1992. And if not, to tell us what paragraph did not.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that clear to you? Mr. Vlaski, is that clear to
6 you that --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's clear to me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- whether it all happened before April 1992 and if
9 not to tell us tomorrow what events did take place either in April or
10 after April 1992.
11 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, with that being said I'm going to get
12 into documents -- oh, I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems from what I hear -- okay, it seems to
14 be no problem.
15 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I'm going to get right into documents
16 and it might take longer than where we're at right now, so if we can
17 continue tomorrow.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then adjourn for the day.
19 Mr. Vlaski -- Mr. Weber is invited to switch off his microphone.
20 Yes, which he has done by now.
21 Mr. Vlaski, before we adjourn I'd like to instruct you that you
22 should not speak or communicate in whatever way, with whomever, about
23 your testimony, whether that is testimony already given today, or
24 anything about your conversations with the Defence over the last weekend,
25 or whether that is about testimony still to be given tomorrow or perhaps
1 even the day after tomorrow.
2 If that's clear to you, you're invited to follow the usher, and
3 we'd like to see you back at 9.30 tomorrow morning in this same
4 courtroom, I.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourn, if the parties could in any way
7 exchange the information about the associated exhibits to see whether
8 there are any remaining questions or not so as to allow the Chamber to be
9 focused tomorrow on what associated exhibits are in dispute.
10 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I -- the Prosecution last Thursday
11 provided a list with its objections on each exhibit and what they are and
12 the ones that we don't object to. So we've received no further
13 information since then. We'd, of course, appreciate any further
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. LUKIC: I'm afraid my friend is not completely accurate. We
17 provided them with the audio recording he requested.
18 MR. WEBER: And -- Mr. Lukic is right. My apologies.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That is a good end of the day. We adjourn
20 and will resume tomorrow Tuesday, the 4th of November, and the parties
21 are already made aware that Judge Fluegge tomorrow will be unable to
22 continue to sit on this case, to hear the case for urgent personal
23 reasons, and therefore, most likely only for one day, we'll sit 15 bis.
24 We adjourn.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of
2 November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.