Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27663

 1                           Monday, 3 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             The Chamber is aware that both parties have some preliminaries.

11     We'll pay attention to them later, that none of them are urgent.

12             I'd like to draw your attention to one item in relation to D557,

13     which is MFI'd.  It is the Islamic declaration of Alija Izetbegovic, and

14     the Defence used a very small number of pages of that Islamic declaration

15     during the testimony of Nenad Kecmanovic.  The entire 77-page document

16     was marked for identification as D557, pending an agreement between the

17     parties about which pages of the document should be received in evidence.

18             Subsequently, the Defence informed the Chamber that it wanted to

19     tender the entire document.  On the 13th of October, the Chamber set a

20     one-week deadline to receive the reasons for tendering the entirety of

21     the document.  The Defence did not file any submissions in this regard,

22     and the Chamber wonders whether it is to understand that under those

23     circumstances the tendering of D557 is withdrawn.

24             And that's a question to you, Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'm sorry that we missed the

Page 27664

 1     dead-line, but we do not withdraw this statement.  You'll see that our

 2     incoming witnesses will discuss this document as well.  And I think that

 3     we spoke with somebody from the Prosecution and that there is -- there

 4     was no objection from their side.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think the Chamber wanted to know why there are

 7     good reasons to tender the whole of the document.  Simply we

 8     spontaneously asked for a further explanation.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Our position is that it's not possible to understand

10     parts of that document.  We should have the whole document in front of us

11     to be able to understand the gist of it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's a short explanation, Mr. Lukic.  You're

13     invited to file the submissions the Chamber requested you to file.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Just to complete the record, I think Mr. Lukic is

15     correct.  He'd spoken to me specifically and we'd communicated that we

16     had no objections to it being admitted in whole.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that's on the record.

18             So the Chamber would like to receive submissions on the matter,

19     Mr. Lukic, and a bit more elaborate that the one you gave a second ago.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Djuric.  You find a new face

23     before you.  The Chamber is happy that we are all three Judges here

24     again.  I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn

25     declaration that you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that

Page 27665

 1     you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2     Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                           WITNESS:  MANE DJURIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 7        Q.   Good morning, sir.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   I want to start this morning with the topic of paramilitaries.

10     Now, you mentioned in your statement that measures were taken against

11     paramilitaries and I've just a few questions about that.

12             First, before measures were taken against the paramilitaries,

13     they were causing problems for the Serb population; right?

14        A.   Yes, they were causing problems for the Serb population and for

15     the Bosniak Muslim population.

16        Q.   And those included breaking into Serb houses and flats?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   Included disturbing the peace generally?

19        A.   Exactly.  Disturbing the peace, breaking into apartments,

20     looting, so the police within the domain of its authority and powers took

21     all necessary measures and to that end the Crisis Staff also adopted

22     certain instructions on forbidding any breaking into abandoned apartments

23     and houses.

24        Q.   Now in paragraph 51 of your statement, you're discussing

25     parliaments and you say:

Page 27666

 1             "These units had become so arrogant that they did not shrink from

 2     stopping an official vehicle that transported our minister from abusing

 3     him, getting him out of the vehicle, et cetera."

 4             Now the specific paramilitary unit that did this was the

 5     Yellow Wasps, right?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Now the minister you're referring to was Minister of the Interior

 8     Mico Stanisic, retire?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And you're aware the Yellow Wasps had also stopped and mistreated

11     Mr. Velibor Ostojic; right?

12        A.   Correct, correct.  Since Velibor Ostojic had less protection and

13     a smaller security detail, then he was exposed to more mistreatment.

14        Q.   I want to focus on the incident with Minister Stanic for a

15     moment.  You learnt about this incident in 1992; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You learned about it from his driver?  Minister Stanic's driver.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And it had happened either the same day or the day before you

20     that learned about it?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now among other things you were told to get the police ready and

23     expect an order, weren't you?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And the order to conduct an operation against the Yellow Wasps

Page 27667

 1     was issued a day or two later; right?

 2        A.   Approximately that way.

 3        Q.   I want to turn now to the Vlasenica SJB's relationship with the

 4     army.  To start, the JNA's Novi Sad Corps left Vlasenica on or around the

 5     19th of May, 1992; right?

 6        A.   That's right.  The order was that the former JNA had to leave the

 7     area of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the 19th of May, 1992.

 8        Q.   Now, when they left they left behind equipment and armoured

 9     personnel carriers; right?

10        A.   Yes.  Part of the equipment stayed behind.  I don't know what the

11     exact quantity was, but at any rate it wasn't a significant quantity.

12        Q.   Some soldiers also stayed behind; right?

13        A.   Yes, yes.

14        Q.   And the soldiers and equipment became part of the VRS's

15     Birac Brigade; right?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  Since a decision had already been reached to establish

17     the Army of Republika Srpska.  Everything became part of the Army of

18     Republika Srpska, and this equipment was kept by the Army of

19     Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   And your SJB carried out some of its activities in co-ordination

21     with military organs; correct?

22        A.   Yes.  At first it was with the Territorial Defence and later,

23     when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, with the members of

24     the Army of Republika Srpska acting either in concert or co-ordinated

25     action.

Page 27668

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Now, could we have 65 ter 1D02348.

 2        Q.   Now, as we're waiting for the English, this is a report you sent

 3     to the Romanija Birac CSB on the 6th of August, 1992.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 2 in the English and the

 5     third paragraph of page 1 in the B/C/S.

 6        Q.   We see here in the second paragraph in the English:

 7             "The public security station co-ordinated its activity and

 8     performed it jointly with organs of the army, particularly when those

 9     carrying out the activities were persons who were directly engaged in war

10     operations."

11             That's correct; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Turning to page 3 in the English and 2 in the B/C/S, the last

14     paragraph, we read in pertinent part:

15             "We deem that the level of co-operation and a joint action by

16     employees of the public security station and members of the army is

17     satisfactory ..."

18             So at the time you were satisfied with the level of co-operation

19     between the SJB and the VRS; right?

20        A.   That's right.  Our objective was to establish institutions, just

21     as the Army of Republika Srpska wanted to do.  So these institutions

22     should function headed by the Main Staff in accordance with procedures

23     that were in force because from the point of view of public security and

24     safety that was the only way to operate, and also from the point of view

25     of the Army of Republika Srpska, to have successful defence against the

Page 27669

 1     enemy.

 2        Q.   Now, looking at the previous paragraph, we see a discussion of

 3     curbing and preventing crimes by members of the army and the note that

 4     related to this, 30 reports and other notices were submitted.  Those

 5     reports would have been submitted to the VRS when the offences were

 6     believed to have been committed by members of the army; right?

 7        A.   That is what I assume.

 8        Q.   Well, let's try and go beyond assumptions.  If you're information

 9     indicated that members of the military had committed crimes, you would

10     turn that information over to the military, like we see described here;

11     right?

12        A.   That's right.  At first before the military police started

13     function or, rather, the crime prevention service within the Army of

14     Republika Srpska, we were the ones who recorded these crimes committed.

15     And then when this service was established in the VRS, all of these cases

16     that have to do with soldiers, members of the VRS, were referred to them,

17     to the crime prevention service of the military police.

18        Q.   That was because crimes committed by members of the VRS at that

19     time were in the jurisdiction of the VRS; right?

20        A.   Correct.  But these institutions hadn't started functioning

21     officially yet.  As soon as that happened, we had a meeting and we

22     referred all these cases to the military service that was in charge.  And

23     later, on the system functioned as follows.  If the police would notice

24     that members of the VRS were committing certain crimes, then they would

25     notify the military police of that and they would take measures as

Page 27670

 1     envisaged by the law.

 2        Q.   Now, in fact, you've said in one of your interviews that the VRS

 3     would complain if you got involved in dealing with crimes by members of

 4     the VRS.  That's true, isn't it?

 5        A.   Correct.  I would just explain that.  In order to prevent any

 6     kind of clash in terms of jurisdictions, we acted in accordance with that

 7     we referred all cases to the VRS, those cases that they would be in

 8     charge of.

 9        Q.   And that meant that if you believed a crime to be in jurisdiction

10     of the army, you didn't investigate; right?

11        A.   In the later period we did not investigate.  We would just hand

12     over all the information we had to the VRS or, rather, the crime

13     prevention service of the military police of the VRS.

14        Q.   I want to go back now briefly to a couple of the points we

15     addressed last week.

16             MR. TRALDI:  And before I do, actually, I'll tender this

17     document.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D2348 receives number P6878.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P6878 is admitted.

21             MR. TRALDI:  And I'd ask that we call up 65 ter 06393.

22        Q.   We discussed last week what would be done with policemen who were

23     believed to have committed crimes and their provision to the VRS.  In

24     fact, the minister of the interior had ordered that such policemen be

25     placed at the disposal of the VRS; right?

Page 27671

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And looking at this document, this is an order from

 3     Minister Stanic dated the 23rd of July, 1992.  It says at the top that

 4     this order arose out of the:  "Session of the collegium on 23 July 1992,"

 5     among other things.

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now last Thursday we discussed the collegium of the chief of the

 9     CSB.  Did the minister also hold collegiums in which he received

10     information from the CSB chiefs?

11        A.   Yes.  That's subordination in the Ministry of Interior.  The

12     minister when necessary would convene this collegium of the minister,

13     that's what it was called, and it was attended by all chiefs of the

14     centres of the security services and also advisors to the minister.  So

15     this was a higher level.

16        Q.   And this order reflects the minister's policy that we discussed a

17     moment ago, the policemen who committed criminal offences should be

18     placed at the disposal of the VRS; right?

19        A.   That's right.

20        Q.   Now point 2 explains who's responsible for the execution of the

21     order including, chiefs of public security centres.  Now, you implemented

22     this order in Vlasenica by making officers who had committed crimes

23     available to the VRS; right?

24        A.   That's right.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 06393.

Page 27672

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 06393 receives number P6879.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  P6879 is admitted.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   Next, sir - and I'm done with this document - we spoke last week

 6     about some log-books and criminal registers kept in Vlasenica.  I'd like

 7     to try and be a little bit more specific about the ones that existed.

 8     First, the police kept a disciplinary register where disciplinary

 9     violations by members of the police were recorded; right?

10        A.   Yes.  That's where all these records are kept.

11        Q.   Second, there was something called a K log-book kept in the

12     police station recording criminal cases before those cases were handed

13     over to the prosecutor's office; right?

14        A.   That's right.  That's the K log-book, that is to say, the crime

15     log-book where all the crimes are logged regardless of whether the

16     perpetrators are known or unknown.

17        Q.   And the prosecutor's office kept a KT log-book for known

18     perpetrators cases, and a KTN for unknown perpetrator cases; right?

19        A.   Yes, the prosecutor's office also had a log-book of their own;

20     that is to say, once we as a police would deal with a criminal report,

21     then we would have it hand it over to the prosecutor's office.  On the

22     basis of this information that we had submitted, the prosecutor can

23     accept that report, ask for additional information, or reject it all

24     together.

25        Q.   And it's the prosecutor's log-book that you confirmed last week

Page 27673

 1     had no mention of prosecutions of Serbs for crimes against non-Serbs;

 2     right?

 3        A.   That's right.  That was the log-book of the prosecutor's office

 4     and this was taken out of context.  Only the part that had to do with the

 5     seizure of weapons.  However, there were many other crimes there,

 6     180-something criminal reports that were filed.  I don't have the

 7     structure of these crimes here right now, but it is certain that all of

 8     that was filed.

 9        Q.   Well, let's look at one of the reports you sent about crimes.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31547.

11        Q.   This is a report you sent to the Romanija Birac CSB on the 25th

12     of September, 1992; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, it discusses crimes and other violations by members of the

15     police; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Looking to the third paragraph, it reflects eight criminal

18     reports against members of the police.  Now, none of those were filed for

19     crimes against non-Serbs, were they?

20        A.   Well, I cannot say exactly right now, but eight criminal reports

21     were filed.  Armed robbery, things like that.  Anyway, it's within that

22     domain.

23        Q.   And these were mostly thefts and robberies, that type of crime;

24     right?

25        A.   I think most of them were.

Page 27674

 1             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 31547.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 31547 receives number P6880.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 189.

 6        Q.   This is the transcript of one of your interviews.

 7             And you were asked beginning at line 23 after looking at the

 8     document we've just seen, now P6880:

 9             "With regard to all of these crimes and transgressions, were any

10     of them for actions taken against non-Serbs?"

11             And you responded:

12             "See in, in regards to criminal reports [sic], no."

13             Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether any of the

14     eight criminal reports filed against police officers in Vlasenica in the

15     summer of 1992 were filed for crimes they committed against non-Serbs?

16        A.   Well, it's very difficult to speak about that now, but let's say

17     if a policeman committed a robbery, and most frequently they would loot

18     Muslim property, then it could have happened that a report was submitted

19     on that matter.

20        Q.   You say it could have happened.  You're not aware of any reports

21     filed against police officers for crimes against non-Serbs, are you?

22        A.   I cannot recall any crimes specifically at that time.  Perhaps

23     there was some open investigations, but I don't believe that the final

24     result then was a criminal report.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Okay.  If we could go into private session.

Page 27675

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

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Page 27676











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Page 27678

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13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   I want to talk now, sir, about some of the crimes committed

18     against non-Serbs in Vlasenica in 1992.  After the take-over, on the 21st

19     of April 1992, some non-Serbs were killed in Vlasenica town; right?

20        A.   If you're thinking of the 21st of April, there were no casualties

21     on that date.  The casualties happened at a later date.

22        Q.   I'm asking specifically about killings in Vlasenica town after

23     the take-over.  There were such events; right?

24        A.   Yes.  But as I said, the actual act of the take-over on the

25     April -- on the 21st of April, 1992, there were no casualties.  The

Page 27679

 1     casualties occurred later.

 2        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And again, after the take-over

 3     property owned by non-Serbs in Vlasenica town and in the municipality was

 4     looted; right?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, this did happen.  We tried as much as we could to

 6     prevent this from happening.

 7        Q.   Now, the Vlasenica town mosque was destroyed in 1992; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And specifically August of 1992; correct?

10        A.   Yes, correct, you are right.

11        Q.   And it was destroyed by engineering units of the VRS, wasn't it?

12        A.   Well, the explosive was planted by somebody who obviously knew

13     how to handle explosives.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last part of

15     the sentence.

16             MR. TRALDI:

17        Q.   Sir, could you repeat the last part of your answer for the

18     interpreters, please.

19        A.   In order to place explosives, the person must know how to handle

20     that.  The person who were trained to do that were members of the

21     engineers units.  Now, I don't know where they were from, from which

22     forces they came from, but I assume that they were part of the engineers

23     units.

24        Q.   Now, in fact, the Vlasenica SJB was given two or three hours

25     advance notice that the mosque was going to be destroyed; right?

Page 27680

 1        A.   Yes, we were informed two or three hours before that certain

 2     activities would happen, and we informed the population accordingly,

 3     asking them to leave that particular area.

 4        Q.   You were informed by the VRS that the engineering unit was going

 5     to destroy the mosque; right?

 6        A.   I cannot be sure who I got the information from, but I think the

 7     information came from some unit of the Army of Republika Srpska.  I don't

 8     know which one.

 9        Q.   And just so the record is absolutely clear, they told you it was

10     going to be the engineering unit that did the demolition; right?

11        A.   Yes.  We were told that the mosque would be blown up in the

12     afternoon and that we should inform the inhabitants this is the

13     information that we received and that we were aware of.

14        Q.   To your knowledge, nobody was ever prosecuted or punished for

15     blowing up the mosque; right?

16        A.   We recorded it in our reports as being perpetrated by an

17     unidentified perpetrator, and the actual event did not result in any

18     significant investigation.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, one of your previous questions where you

20     sought specifically to receive an answer to the engineering unit as being

21     the one which was announced to -- to do the job, was not answered.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I thought it was answered at page 18, line 6.  But

23     I'm happy to re-ask the Chamber if it suits the Chamber.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.  Well, I see on lines 7 and

25     8:  "Yes, we were told ..."  And then the specific point you raised in

Page 27681

 1     your question could be covered by the yes but certainly does not appear

 2     in the explanation then given.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  All right.  I'll re-ask the question.  I'd request

 4     that we move into private session.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

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19                           [Open session]

20             MR. TRALDI:

21        Q.   Sir --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question after Madam Registrar has

23     announced that we are back in open session.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

25     you.

Page 27683

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             Have you ever considered to lodge any protest against what

 3     clearly was an announcement of the destruction of a religious -- a

 4     religious monument?

 5             Yes, Witness, have you received translation of the question?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I'll repeat the question for you.

 8             Have you ever considered to lodge any protest against what

 9     clearly was an announcement of the destruction of a religious monument?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, at that

11     point in time, our goal was to inform the population to avoid anybody

12     getting hurt in the immediate vicinity, so we did not have time to write

13     any kind of protest.  That means that we reduced our activities to those

14     that were in our remit:  The care for the security of the population.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Would the population not be best protected by

16     preventing the destruction to take place at all?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, at that

18     point in time the only possible thing was to do exactly what we did: To

19     inform the citizens.  All other activities would not have yielded any

20     results.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then specifically ask you:  If you would have

22     gone there and would have told anyone that was about to place explosives

23     that it may be a crime to intentionally destroy a religious monument, why

24     do you think that would have had no effect?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time, we didn't

Page 27684

 1     have access to that building, and we didn't specifically know which

 2     persons were going to commit that act.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you can go all around the mosque and tell

 4     everyone what's going to happen in two or three hours, and you say,

 5     "Well, we couldn't look as who was preparing the explosives at the

 6     mosque."  Is that what you are telling us?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did not have access to the

 8     building.  We had information that the explosion would happen, so we

 9     wanted to inform and remove the population from the area to make sure

10     that they would leave and that they would be safe.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Why didn't you access to the building?  Just open

12     the door and when it's locked, then force your way into it, isn't it?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not consider that option in

14     view of the fact that we were not part of those activities.  We just

15     acted pursuant to the information, and we acted within our powers to

16     protect the inhabitants as much as we could.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And your powers did not include preventive action in

18     order to avoid that crimes are committed?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that did include preventative

20     action in any case.  Police work also includes preventative actions, of

21     course.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, I do not understand that it was not

23     within the remit of your powers.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right at the beginning, we were

25     clarifying things in order to prevent conflict of authority among the

Page 27685

 1     institutions.  We assumed that this was something that was being done by

 2     members of the engineers unit.  Then us interfering in that action would

 3     constitute a conflict of authority and powers.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  It being done by members of the engineers unit,

 5     would that make it any less a crime?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it would not make it less

 7     of a crime, but the institutions functioned each in its own area of

 8     responsibility and authority.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So you'd say if a clear announcement is made that

10     the army intends to commit any act which, at face value, would be a

11     serious crime, you would just say stay out of the way because a crime

12     will be committed?  That's your position.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I'm talking about a

14     conflict of powers here.  There's the institution of the army, the

15     institution of the Ministry of the Interior.  Any interference in the

16     authority of the other --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You've told us that before.  I would invite to you

18     answer my question, that was that if the army makes an announcement that

19     within a civilian area they are about to commit what at face value seems

20     to be a serious crime, that the only thing you do is to say to the

21     population stay out, stay away, I have no access to the mosque, although

22     you can open the door.  But that's your position, that that's the

23     appropriate thing to do at that point in time.  Is that how we have to

24     understand your testimony?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  At that point in time, from

Page 27686

 1     the point of view of the Ministry of Interior, all we could do was inform

 2     the population that they should get out of the way.  We were able only to

 3     work on the aspect of the safety of the population.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If -- if the army would have announced that they

 5     would kill three civilians on the market-place, would you also have gone

 6     there and say to all the public, "Stay away, because you might be hit by

 7     a bullet when the army is executing three civilians"?  Would you have

 8     done the same?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are hypothetical questions,

10     and we could continue with that endlessly, but what we're talking about

11     here is that it was our task and the only option to do what we did.  Had

12     we had the information before, a day or two before, I probably would have

13     informed along the professional line the minister about it, and so on.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  As a matter of fact, I'm looking at the clock.

18     Perhaps I should invite you not to proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I'm in the Chamber's hands, of course.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  How many -- where are we as time is concerned?

21             MR. TRALDI:  I'd estimate about half a session, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Half a session.  Then we'll take a break first.

23             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you

24     back after that break, and you may now follow the usher.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 27687

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes

 2     to 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  While waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

 6     courtroom.  There was one preliminary item about a translation, I think.

 7     Perhaps so short that we could deal with that.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, Mr. President.  The Prosecution advises that it

 9     has received the B/C/S translation for -- sorry, for MFI P6713,

10     65 ter 31192, which was marked for identification through Witness Indjic

11     on the 3rd of September 2014 at transcript page 25179.  The translation

12     has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID R0116819RED B/C/S.  If the

13     Defence are in agreement the Prosecution requests or will request that

14     the Court Officer be instructed to attach the translation and that the

15     document be admitted.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I hear from the Defence.  My recollection

17     doesn't tell me right away whether it was only the translation that

18     caused the document to be MFI'd.

19             My colleagues confirm that that was the only reason.

20             Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If that's the only reason, then the Registrar is

23     hereby instructed to attach doc ID R0116819RED B/C/S to document P6713,

24     MFI'd.  Once it has been attached, P6713 is admitted into evidence under

25     seal.

Page 27688

 1             MR. TRALDI:  And, Your Honour, since we have mother moment, we've

 2     been informed that at transcript page 27642, line 14, on Thursday,

 3     65 ter 31516 is recorded as having been admitted as Exhibit P6873 when,

 4     in fact, it has been admitted as Exhibit P6872.  So for the clarity of

 5     the record.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just have a look.  27642, line 14.  Yes,

 7     Madam Registrar, could you please verify whether the transcript is

 8     accurate.  We are talking about 65 ter 31516, I think.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And whether it, indeed, is admitted as exhibit

11     number P6872.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Indeed, Your Honours.  65 ter 31516 should have

13     been assigned number P6873 which is assigned so in e-court for that

14     document.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's ... first of all, we switch off all

16     unnecessary microphones.  I think what Mr. Traldi was hinting at is that

17     it should have been admitted as P8 -- 6872 and that the transcript reads

18     that it was P6873 which is inaccurate, if I understand you well,

19     Mr. Traldi.

20             MR. TRALDI:  That's correct and that's the information we, and I

21     think also the Chamber, have received from the Registry.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then this will be verified.

23             Madam Registrar, if Mr. Traldi made a mistake, then you'll

24     certainly draw the attention of the Chamber to that fact.  If not,

25     65 ter 31516 is recorded now as being admitted as P6872.

Page 27689

 1             Witness, our apologies for dealing with administrative matters

 2     when you entered the courtroom.  Mr. Traldi will now continue his

 3     cross-examination.

 4             Mr. Traldi.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Sir, a number of Muslims who were arrested in late May and early

 7     June 1992 - Muslim civilians - were brought to the Vlasenica police

 8     station; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, you were aware at the time that some of the civilians who'd

11     been brought there were beaten; correct?

12        A.   Well, look.  There's a reference to beatings, mistreatments.  I

13     heard about that only later through the electronic media, through

14     different witness statements.  However, from the 2nd of May, 1992, the

15     police station really tried to work and to act in accordance with the

16     Law on Criminal Procedure.  From the 21st of April until mid-May, say,

17     the 20th of May, it was --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness, I'll stop you there.  The

19     question was about your awareness of some of the civilians being taken to

20     the Vlasenica police station, that they were beaten.

21             Were you aware at the time?  I take it from your answer that you

22     only learned about it later.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That answers the question.

25             If Mr. Traldi has any further questions on the matter, he'll

Page 27690

 1     certainly put them to you.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 245.

 3        Q.   Sir, this will be another portion of one of your suspect

 4     interviews.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Could counsel repeat the page number again.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry, page 245.

 7        Q.   Now, you're being asked about civilians brought to the SJB here.

 8     And at the top of the page, beginning at line 3, you're asked:

 9             "All right.  Were you aware of any mistreatment of these Bosniak

10     civilians when they were brought in for interrogation?"

11             You replied:

12             "See, I personally did not see that someone was being harassed.

13     But if I happened to hear from someone that someone was harassed, I

14     insisted that this should not have -- should not be happening.  And I

15     requested from the duty policeman at the entrance to make a record of any

16     person coming in and to write a short -- a short description and also to

17     make a record when the person was -- when the person left the premises

18     or ... for this reason, of the possibility of misuse by the responsible

19     individuals.  So this functioned in such a way."

20             Then you were asked:

21             "Okay.  When you say 'harassed,' were you also aware that on --

22     at least on some occasions the civilians who were brought in were also

23     beaten?"

24             And you answered:

25             "See, I heard about this and I took measures right away."

Page 27691

 1             Now, that's the truth what you said in your suspect interview,

 2     that you did hear at the time that civilians were being beaten in the

 3     Vlasenica police station; right?

 4        A.   Yes.  But I intervened immediately in order to have this

 5     situation overcome because, in fact, proper authority was established in

 6     the station only the second half of May 1992.  Basically until then,

 7     various paragroups would barge in and it's possible that such incidents

 8     occurred.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I take you back to one of your

10     previous answers.  When you were asked about your awareness of people

11     being beaten when brought in, you said:

12             "Well, look.  There's a reference to beatings, mistreatments,"

13     and "I heard about that only later through the electronic media, through

14     various witness statements ..."

15             That wasn't true.  You learned about it right away and it was not

16     a truthful answer.

17             Do you have any explanation as why you told us that you only

18     learned it through the electronic media, whereas you now tell us five

19     minutes later that you were aware of it and that you immediately took

20     action?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, people were saying

22     that there were certain incidents and I did not see any of that.

23     However, I acted by way of prevention and took measures with a view to

24     prevent such situations from happening.  Later on in the electronic media

25     as I followed statements made by different witness, I came to realise

Page 27692

 1     that, indeed, such things had happened.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The question that was put to you was just about

 3     awareness.  Now you were told -- you were told at the time that this

 4     happened, and even in one of your answers today, you said if it was

 5     reported to you then you took action.

 6             Let me just remind you that at least that answer, that you

 7     learned about it only later, is certainly not the whole truth as you were

 8     asked to tell us.  Could you please keep that in mind not to seek evasive

 9     answers but to directly answer the question what is -- that is put to

10     you.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   In terms of the actions you took, you informed your superiors at

14     the CSB of what you'd heard; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the policemen that were suspected to have participated were

17     sent to the VRS; right?

18        A.   Yes.  Measures were taken, those that were in envisaged under the

19     law at the time, and this was based on the agreement already reached

20     between the Main Staff of the VRS and the Ministry of Interior towards

21     the end of July 1992 --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to come

23     closer to the microphone, says the interpreter.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   Sorry, sir, you're being asked to move towards the microphone so

Page 27693

 1     the interpreters can hear you more clearly.

 2             Now you said this was based on an agreement in late July 1992.

 3     Is it your evidence that measures, the transfer of these policemen to the

 4     VRS that were suspected of having beaten people at the SJB, were taken

 5     after that agreement was in place?

 6        A.   Even before that, many measures were taken.  That is to say,

 7     policemen from the reserve force were dismissed, those who acted against

 8     the law if I can put it that way.  But at any rate, this agreement was

 9     reached between the Main Staff of Republika Srpska and the MUP that all

10     paramilitaries be disbanded, handed over to the VRS, and expelled from

11     the areas where they were operating.

12        Q.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I again take you back to one of your

14     previous answers.

15             When I asked you about the answer you'd given previously, you

16     said, explaining your previous answer, you said:

17             "At that moment, people were saying that were certain incidents

18     and I did not see any of that.  However, I acted by way of prevention and

19     took measures with a view to prevent such situations from happening."

20             Later on in the electronic media you said you came to realise

21     that indeed such things had happened.

22             From the answers you just gave, it appears that you knew already

23     at the time that such things were happening and that you did not only act

24     in way of prevention but that you also acted in a different way, acting

25     upon reports, taking measures perhaps to prevent such situations from

Page 27694

 1     happening again but not prevent such things from happening only later

 2     finding out that they had happened.

 3             I again have to warn that you should speak the whole truth.  Is

 4     that clear to you?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear.  And I am telling the

 6     truth.  That is to say, at that moment --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I just asked you whether that's clear to

 8     you and you said it was.

 9             Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   One of the reserve policeman at the Vlasenica SJB at the time,

12     Predrag Bastah, has been convicted after the war in Bosnia of crimes

13     against humanity for abusing prisoners at the SJB in late May and

14     beginning of June 1992; right?

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What's the name of the policeman again?

16             MR. TRALDI:  Bastah, B-a-s-t-a-h.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   Sir, I'm now going to ask you about the take-over of Zaklopaca on

21     16 May 1992.  Zaklopaca was in the municipality of Milici at the time;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, in that newly established municipality.

24        Q.   You heard the next day that 60 to 80 civilians were killed during

25     the take-over; right?

Page 27695

 1        A.   Yes, the next day I heard that an incident had taken place there

 2     in Zaklopaca.

 3        Q.   And you heard that 60 to 80 Muslim civilians were killed; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now this was a crime; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this incident encouraged Muslims to leave the area of

 8     Vlasenica and Milici, didn't it?

 9        A.   Yes.  That's when the intensity of moving out was on the rise.

10        Q.   Now when you explain in your statement why Muslims left Vlasenica

11     municipality, you don't mention that they started to leave in greater

12     numbers after other -- sorry, after other Muslim civilians were

13     massacred.  You don't mention that in your statement, do you?

14        A.   That's right.  I did not deal with that problem because it was

15     within the scope of work of the Milici municipality; that is to say, a

16     different socio-political community.

17        Q.   And because it was within the scope of work of Milici

18     municipality, it would have been their SJB, not yours, that was

19     responsible for investigating a crime; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   To your knowledge, no one was ever prosecuted or punished for

22     that crime, were they?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Just for the clarity of the record, that's yes, no one was

25     punished; correct?

Page 27696

 1        A.   Now whether they did carry out investigations, I don't know.  But

 2     I know what the epilogue is:  No one was punished.

 3        Q.   I want to ask you now about a mass murder outside of Nova Kasaba

 4     in May 1992.  About 25 Muslims were killed there; right?

 5        A.   Yes, I found out about that later too.

 6        Q.   When you say "later," this was on television within a day or two

 7     it happening; right?

 8        A.   Yes, precisely.

 9        Q.   And the victims were being taken out of Bratunac by bus escorted

10     by the Bratunac police?

11        A.   Yes.  As far as I know, yes.

12        Q.   They were killed by paramilitaries from a group called the

13     Vukovar Detachment; right?

14        A.   Also on the basis of certain knowledge, yes.

15        Q.   Now, you never saw a report or a bulletin about this crime, did

16     you?

17        A.   I did not.

18        Q.   And to your knowledge, this crime hasn't been prosecuted either,

19     has it?

20        A.   As far as I know.  But again, I'm saying that that was under the

21     Milici police station.  Now whether they took certain measures, I don't

22     know.

23        Q.   There were a number of take-overs of Muslim villages in Vlasenica

24     in late May 1992; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27697

 1        Q.   The -- a battalion of the VRS Birac Brigade took part; right?

 2        A.   Well, there are two periods.  In this first period until sometime

 3     in June while the JNA was there, in the villages that were being

 4     disarmed, the newly established Territorial Defence took part as well as

 5     the units of the JNA.  Later on when the Army of Republika Srpska was

 6     established, there were certain activities in accordance with the plan of

 7     the Army of Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   You just said June -- or the JNA was there till June.  You

 9     testified earlier today that the Novi Sad Corps left on May 19th and its

10     equipment and personnel that stayed became part of the VRS Birac Brigade.

11     That's the truth; right?

12        A.   That's right, that's right.

13        Q.   Now the way these operations would work would be that people

14     would be called with megaphones to come to a certain spot in the village

15     to surrender their weapons; right?

16        A.   Yes.  That is to say, when we are speaking about the Territorial

17     Defence and the JNA, yes.

18        Q.   And also the VRS; right?  After May 19th.

19        A.   Yes.  Then the Territorial Defence was abolished and the Army of

20     Republika Srpska was established.

21        Q.   Now, police officers from SJB Vlasenica would make a list of the

22     weapons that had been surrendered and take them away; right?

23        A.   Yes, that was the task of the police.  Since the police keep

24     records of weapons, then these collected weapons were supposed to be

25     recorded and stored in a certain storage area in the public security

Page 27698

 1     station.

 2        Q.   To ensure the police were there, the army would inform your SJB

 3     by fax the day beforehand; right?

 4        A.   Yes, that's this period until the 19th of May.

 5        Q.   And during the operation, the army would call the police by radio

 6     to come take the weapons; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You said you were notified by fax until the 19th of May.  How

 9     were you notified when it was the VRS conducting the operations?

10        A.   Later when the VRS was established, institutions were established

11     of the VRS and the Ministry of Interior.  Then on the basis of requests

12     and when necessary, the VRS would send a request to us stating that they

13     needed certain forces, some policemen.  My task was to ask the

14     Ministry of Interior, the chief of the centre, for approval and to send

15     these policemen who would then be placed under the command of the

16     military unit in charge in the place where they would be stationed.

17        Q.   You say placed under the command.  The technical term for that is

18     resubordinated; right?

19        A.   Precisely.

20        Q.   Sir, I want to discuss one such take-over in particular, the

21     take-over of Drum.  That was at the very beginning of June 1992; right?

22     I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the

23     record.

24        A.   Yes.  As for the village of Piskavica Drum and the take-over

25     there, there was this operation carried out on 29th of April that was

Page 27699

 1     carried out by the Territorial Defence and the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2     The other activity took place sometime in the beginning of June.  I

 3     cannot say exactly.  The police did not take part in that.  However,

 4     later on, I acquired some concrete information.

 5        Q.   So the activity in the beginning of June, that was a VRS

 6     operation; right?

 7        A.   I cannot remember exactly whether the activity was the activity

 8     of the VRS or paramilitaries, because at that time they still existed in

 9     the territory and their aim was to loot and so on and so forth.  On the

10     following day I did hear, though, that an incident had taken place there.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we go into private session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27700











11  Page 27700 redacted.  Private session.















Page 27701

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 27702

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   And here this is again part of one of your suspect interviews.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  And I think actually for the clarity of the record

 5     if we could have the previous page.  And not to be broadcast, please.

 6        Q.   So you can see that you're being asked here about the incident in

 7     Drum.  Looking, beginning at line 29, you're asked -- sorry, beginning at

 8     line 24:

 9             "Did you investigate this killing incident?"

10             And you say:

11             "See, a report was made about this but it was very difficult to

12     find out any information about the perpetrators."

13             You were asked:

14             "Who did you submit the report to?"

15             You answer:

16             "I forwarded the report to the centre what happened, that there

17     was this incident."

18             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could turn to the next page.

19        Q.   As we do, "the centre" refers to the CSB Romanija Birac; right?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   Now, beginning here with your answer at line 6, you say:

22             "I didn't take to him.  I informed him and it was requested for

23     this case to be investigated."

24             You are asked:

25             "By who?"

Page 27703

 1             And you say:

 2             "But usually any act, if we had possibilities, we tried to

 3     document for it.  But I don't think we were able to do anything special

 4     on this issue because the intensive fighting started.  So this was more

 5     or less -- we tried to talk to the military police, for them to get

 6     involved in it ..."

 7             Now, that was the truth what you said in your suspect interview;

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   And the military police that you talked to were from the

11     Vlasenica Battalion of the Birac Brigade; right?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   So I'd put to you you were informing them because your

14     information indicated that the military had been responsible for this

15     operation.  That's true, isn't it?

16        A.   It's true, the police did not take part in this.  It was either

17     the army or the paramilitary.  So we moved along in two tracks in order

18     to try to find the perpetrators.

19        Q.   I'm going to turn now to some questions about Susica camp.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one question for the witness.

21             Were the paramilitaries also within the competence of the

22     military police?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The paramilitaries remained

24     after the formation of the Army of Republika Srpska.  These were groups

25     that did not wish to join the Army of Republika Srpska and they still

Page 27704

 1     insisted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that the military police would not

 3     investigate them because they were not subordinated to the military?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We also tried to inform the

 5     military police and we also tried to carry out certain steps in order to

 6     find out who committed this.  Because as I say, the paramilitary groups

 7     definitely existed until the 27th or the 28th of July when the decision

 8     was made to subordinate all groups of that kind.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Who would then investigate in the meantime any

10     crimes committed by the paramilitaries?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As an institution as the Ministry

12     of Interior we recorded all such occurrences and conducted investigations

13     to the extent that we were able to at that point in time.  However, the

14     Army of Republika Srpska in their investigating institutions were the

15     ones to whom we forwarded all the criminal reports that we believed would

16     fall under their jurisdiction.  So we also tried to do it in that way.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  So sending to the military police meant that you

18     considered it at least likely that the military -- that it was useful to

19     investigate whether the military were responsible for the incidents.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We would look to see if they were

21     members of any of the already-formed units, in which case we would then

22     seek to have the army activated in this respect.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And what did you find out about the incident

24     Mr. Traldi asked you about, as to who were most likely the perpetrators?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't get very far.  I've

Page 27705

 1     already said that.  We conducted the on scene investigation, established

 2     the facts, and then opened an investigation marking it as an unidentified

 3     perpetrator.  So as far as the public security station is concerned, that

 4     was it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But, nevertheless, you found it useful to send all

 6     your information to the military police.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Could we go into private session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27706

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   As I said a few moments ago I'm going to turn to Susica camp, and

10     first I want to clarify one point in your statement.  In paragraph 50 you

11     discuss activities to transfer Muslims from Susica to Bijeljina.  When

12     you say Bijeljina, you mean Batkovic camp; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And Batkovic camp was run by the VRS; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, were you ever at Susica yourself?

17        A.   "Nee" [No interpretation].

18        Q.   Why not?

19        A.   Well, first of all, I did not consider that a camp because it had

20     its humanitarian nature as well for a certain period.  Then I personally

21     did not agree about the existence of any camp in the Vlasenica area, so I

22     took some measures at different levels in order to have that thing

23     transferred out of there and to have those people sent, if we're talking

24     about civilians, to send them to the Federation, or if they were

25     prisoners of war to send them to Batkovic.  Because that is from where

Page 27707

 1     the exchanges were carried out later.

 2        Q.   Now, you say at first that you didn't consider it a camp because

 3     it had its humanitarian nature as well for a certain period.  And then

 4     you say that you did not agree about the existence of a camp in the

 5     Vlasenica area.  So you'd agree, wouldn't you, that even if wasn't a camp

 6     at first, it certainly became one?

 7        A.   Yes.  Later pursuant to a specific order it became defined as a

 8     camp.

 9        Q.   That's the order you discuss in your statement from

10     Svetozar Andric on the 31st of May, 1992; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'll need about another ten minutes

13     with the Chamber's indulgence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I just asked for the time report, Mr. Traldi.  You

15     apparently read my mind.  I'll first wait for the result.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Now, the warden there, Veljko Basic, was a retired police officer

19     who was mobilised into the TO; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the Susica facility, which had been a TO facility, came under

22     the control of the Birac Brigade when the VRS was formed; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Can the Prosecution please have Exhibit P193.

25        Q.   Now, this is an assessment of the guards service, and it's dated

Page 27708

 1     June 1992.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If could we have page 3 in both languages.

 3        Q.   This is an assessment of the danger to buildings in Susica from

 4     attack on them.  Do you agree we're discussing the same buildings, the

 5     same Susica facility you describe in your statement?

 6        A.   Yes.  The analysis is a result of the order that we mentioned.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 4, the third paragraph from

 8     the bottom.

 9        Q.   We see a note about the impossibility of any disinformation or

10     cover-up measures, and it mentions the number and structure of prisoners.

11     It's referring to them as prisoners because by this time clearly it was a

12     camp; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Turning to page 9 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S,

15     Major Slobodan Pajic is issuing a directive on the work of guards

16     support.  Directing your attention to point 9, he writes:

17             "Regarding any unclear matters, contact the prison warden, chief

18     of the Vlasenica SJB, and the 4th Battalion Vlasenica Command."

19             Were you contacted by the guards at Susica camp about any unclear

20     matters?

21        A.   This is here because in the event of an attack or any problems in

22     the building, in the camp, all these institutions would have to be

23     informed because they are the ones that could provide help and

24     protection.  So the guards were not obliged to report to or inform the

25     public security station.

Page 27709

 1        Q.   Setting aside their obligations, you did hear in 1992 about

 2     beatings and killings at Susica; right?

 3        A.   I did find out that there were some incidents and such

 4     situations.

 5        Q.   You reported those to CSB Chief Cvijetic; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now you didn't investigate them because you believed them to be

 8     in the jurisdiction of the army; correct?

 9        A.   Yes, precisely.

10        Q.   But you did inform the VRS of these incidents; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, turning to the departure of Muslims from Vlasenica, I'll

13     just have one brief question.

14             By the time the mosque was destroyed in August 1992, almost all

15     the Muslims were gone from Vlasenica; right?

16        A.   For the most part, yes.

17        Q.   And you mention in your statement the municipality issuing

18     documents on the -- on certificates for leaving the municipality.  The

19     reason Serbs had to get such a paper was to prevent them from avoiding

20     military service; right?

21        A.   Correct.  They had to have a certificate from the Secretariat for

22     National Defence.

23        Q.   As Muslims left the municipality, other Serbs moved in; right?

24        A.   Yes.  The intensity with which the flow of Serbs arriving from

25     other locations varied, but by that time, there was already a

Page 27710

 1     considerable number of refugees there from other areas.

 2        Q.   And a body in the municipality assigned them to abandoned houses

 3     and flats; right?

 4        A.   Yes.  A decision was reached - I don't know what the document was

 5     called - a commission was formed, which was now temporarily assigning

 6     abandoned apartments and houses.

 7        Q.   Finally, sir, on the 22nd of October, 2002, you stopped working

 8     in the police because you were not certified by the International Police

 9     Task Force, or IPTF; right?

10        A.   That is correct.

11        Q.   And this was because based on a review of your war time record

12     and the information available to them, they had information suggesting

13     that you'd sent persons detained at the Vlasenica police station to the

14     Susica camp; right?

15        A.   That is what was said in the reasons, statement of reasons, but I

16     did not have the opportunity to prove otherwise, and -- or to disprove

17     it, so that this sanction is still in force to this day.

18             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

19     witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.  Just managed to get -- to

21     stay within the two and a half hour's estimate.

22             We'll take a break first before -- Mr. Stojanovic, before you'll

23     re-examine the witness if at least there's any need to re-examine the

24     witness.  Is there?

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I

Page 27711

 1     will require about ten minutes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take those ten minutes after the break.

 3             And your next witness is stand by?

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, he is.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break.

 6             Witness, you may follow the usher.  We'd like to see you back in

 7     20 minutes.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

13     courtroom.

14             Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has been informed about some

15     problems you have with the uploading into e-court of some of the

16     documents in relation to the next witness.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I can't say that we're very happy with it but let's

19     work on the basis of hard copies exceptionally and then later on the

20     documents will be uploaded into e-court.  I do understand that the booths

21     have received hard copies of everything you want to use and that hard

22     copies are available for the Judges as well.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Under those circumstances, let's not make too much

25     fuss about it, but --

Page 27712

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I can inform you that we did our part.

 2     So the Tribunal staff was not able to upload it into the system.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I then -- we know what the time-limits are and

 4     that might have come a bit late.  But, again, let's try to avoid it to

 5     happen again, but let's work on the basis of what we have.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to re-examine the

 8     witness?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours, one more

10     time.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  Good day.

13        A.   Good day.

14        Q.   I have just a few questions that I would like to put to you.  In

15     the cross-examination you talked about how on the 19th of April 1992,

16     immediate danger of war was declared in the Vlasenica municipality.

17             What I want to ask you is this:  Could you please tell us who

18     made the decision to declare the immediate danger of war?

19        A.   This decision was made by the Crisis Staff on the basis of their

20     assessment of the crisis situation.  Already in that time the

21     institution's either executive power or judicial ones did not operate.

22     The situation was more difficult and the interethnic relations were not

23     good.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his last

25     sentence.

Page 27713

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   If I can just ask you to repeat the last sentence because it was

 3     not recorded in the transcript.

 4        A.   Interethnic safety, security was disrupted, interethnic

 5     relations.  And the institutions did not function, the judiciary and the

 6     executive bodies were not functioning.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, the only question you asked the

 8     witness is who took that decision.  Paragraph 17 of the statement reads:

 9             "The decision on declaring immediate threat of war was made by

10     the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Vlasenica."

11             Why ask the witness what is already in his statement you have

12     tendered yourself into evidence?  Try to be focused.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That was just

14     a queue for what the witness had already spoken about.

15             Could we now please have P6874 in e-court.  P6864 in e-court.

16        Q.   Please take a look at this document.  It's in front of you,

17     Mr. Witness.  I shall put a question to you related to this document.

18        A.   There's no document.

19        Q.   In paragraph II of this decision on imminent threat of war, there

20     is a reference inter alia to these reasons that you had referred to, but

21     also there is a reference to a large number of armed citizens.

22             My question:  Is that your knowledge, namely, that in April 1992

23     in the area of the municipality of Vlasenica there were many armed

24     citizens?

25        A.   Yes.  There was a large number of armed citizens because weapons

Page 27714

 1     were procured in different ways.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  When you spoke about the decision on disarmament of

 3     the members of the public security station in Vlasenica, active and

 4     reserve, did you receive at any point in time, in writing or orally, any

 5     kind of instructions on disarming a group of policemen as opposed to some

 6     other group on the basis of their ethnicity?

 7        A.   On the basis of documents that I found at the public security

 8     station when I took over my duties, I did not come across such a

 9     document.

10        Q.   Thank you.  As for the questions that were put to you today

11     during the cross-examination by the Prosecution, you mentioned military

12     operations or military actions.  What do you specifically mean when you

13     say "military operation"?

14        A.   As for military operations, at that time they were called

15     military actions, these are activities of the Army of Republika Srpska in

16     the areas that were in jeopardy or, rather, areas that were within their

17     plans.

18        Q.   In these military actions, could it happen that some volunteer

19     units could take part in the beginning of the war or paramilitary units

20     and during the war police units as well?

21        A.   Yes.  It would always happen up until the period when these

22     paramilitary units were expelled.  How do we put this?  Planned military

23     actions of the Army of Republika Srpska, co-ordinated with the police,

24     they would be followed by certain paramilitary groups that committed

25     crimes and that were out of control.

Page 27715

 1        Q.   In the area of the village of Drum, before these military

 2     activities, were there any incidents in terms of weapons being used,

 3     gun-fire being opened, lack of control in the territory of that village?

 4        A.   The village of Drum is a village that is directly by the

 5     outskirts of the municipality of Vlasenica.  In the previous period there

 6     was a staff there that had been established by the former chief of the

 7     Territorial Defence, Ferid Hodzic.  He organised groups.  Now, was it the

 8     Patriotic League or the Green Berets?  And they had this location there,

 9     a check-point, and they often taunted the citizens of Vlasenica and

10     opened fire at them.

11        Q.   The question is how you learned about that.

12        A.   Police patrols.  We had learned that a group had been established

13     there, headed by Ferid Hodzic who later on went to Cerska; that is to

14     say, he became an official commander.  In that period from that

15     check-point that they used to check the Serb population, the village of

16     Svetoke [phoen] is on the other side of Drum, very often in the evening

17     they would use tracer bullets and fire at Vlasenica.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you a bit more precise on what

19     was learned when exactly and -- because you're -- apparently are linking

20     this to the Drum incident and therefore we need to know exactly how your

21     questions link to what the Prosecution asked about.

22             So could you please find detailed information on the matter

23     rather than general information on the presence of groups.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So, Witness, this information that you spoke of a moment ago,

Page 27716

 1     could you please tell the Trial Chamber when were these incidents

 2     recorded and when did all this happen?

 3        A.   These incidents, these provocations against Vlasenica, coming

 4     from Drum, they date back to the period even before the 21st of April.

 5        Q.   Were weapons used from the village of Drum towards the town of

 6     Vlasenica after April and up until June 1992?

 7        A.   Yes.  That is to say, very often there were provocations,

 8     especially at night-time.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you give us one example, some detail, about

10     one specific provocation, what kind of provocation, what type of weaponry

11     was used, what was done about it, whether there were any victims.

12             Could you give us one example and to elaborate on that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part this happened at

14     night-time.  And I've already said that the village of Drum is close to

15     Vlasenica.  There were provocations in --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness, you're doing now the same as you

17     did before:  There were provocations.

18             Give us one clear example where, at what time, what happened,

19     what then was the response, what's the base -- the source of your

20     knowledge?  One specific example, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I cannot refer to a

22     specific date, but I know that it was repeated night after night, every

23     night.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 27717

 1        Q.   According to the information that you received, until when did

 2     this check-point exist?  The one that made it impossible for the

 3     population to pass through the village of Drum.

 4        A.   On the basis of the security assessment of the

 5     then-Territorial Defence of Vlasenica, newly established, there was this

 6     activity that was carried out together with the JNA on the 29th of April.

 7     Then this check-point was neutralised.

 8        Q.   I shall end with the following question:  At any point in time,

 9     did you receive information as to who called the police - and from

10     where - to speak about the activities of the -- concerning the

11     destruction of the mosque in Vlasenica, if you know that?

12        A.   I cannot recall where this information came from.  Was it from

13     the command of the battalion or something similar to that, I cannot

14     recall exactly.

15        Q.   Mr. Djuric, thank you on behalf of the Defence.  We have no

16     further questions for you.

17        A.   Thank you, too.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

19             Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness?

20             MR. TRALDI:  No, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, since the Chamber also has no further

22     questions for you, this concludes your evidence in this court.  I'd like

23     to thank you very much for coming to The Hague.  It's a long journey.

24     And I'd also like to thank you for having answered all the questions that

25     were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I would wish you a

Page 27718

 1     safe return home again.

 2             You may follow the usher.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness may be escorted into the courtroom.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I actually have a preliminary before he

 7     is brought in.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You have a preliminary.  Then please raise it right

 9     away, Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

11             On Saturday 1 November 2014, the Prosecution received an 18-page

12     proofing note for the next witness.  In this proofing note the

13     Prosecution was informed that the Defence was redacting the entirety of

14     18 paragraphs and parts of nine other parts following the Prosecution's

15     objections to the lack of foundation for the witness's knowledge of

16     certain information in and absence of relevance.

17             The Prosecution would like to put on the record that it maintains

18     its position with respect to the remaining paragraphs as communicated in

19     its response of 14 October 2014.

20             The Prosecution further notes that the proofing note is

21     essentially a new statement that goes beyond the matters opposed by the

22     Prosecution.  We would oppose the use or admission of the proofing note

23     during the testimony of this witness.  However, we do understand that the

24     Defence may wish to lead additional evidence based on our previous

25     objections to further establish the basis of knowledge for the witness's

Page 27719

 1     factual knowledge of the remaining paragraphs if relevant and not

 2     consisting of the witness's opinions.  Because of this, we would not

 3     oppose this being done viva voce.  However, we would be -- oppose it in

 4     the form of a proofing note which does now go into other matters, so like

 5     what the President of Argentina did and so forth.

 6             We would also note that the proofing note discloses information

 7     to the Prosecution based on the statement of another, and we also at this

 8     time have a significant inability related to this information which

 9     supposedly comes from another individual in another individual's

10     statement.  During the first recess today, the Defence did give us a copy

11     of this other person's statement which is 56 pages long and not

12     translated.  This is rather difficult for us to -- to digest with such

13     late notice.

14             So I just want to put those matters on the record.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  They are hereby on the record.

16             Mr. Lukic, I must say that when I read in your new text lines

17     like "from the media it become common knowledge that this and this

18     happened," that, of course, is replacing one sweeping statement by

19     another one and, of course, source of knowledge means that we have

20     something more than what people read in newspapers.  But again, it's

21     maybe too much to -- to deal with right away.  Let's see how your

22     examination of the witness develops.  And whenever decisions on whether

23     or not to admit the old statement or the information report are still

24     pending -- let's see how it develops, but I can't say that I have no

25     understanding for the concerns expressed by the Prosecution.  And that's

Page 27720

 1     true for the whole of the Chamber.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, just if that ends the matter I'd just

 3     request to be excused if it's a convenient time.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the usher is already at the door-step to escort

 5     you out, Mr. Traldi.  And perhaps if he could then escort the witness

 6     into the courtroom at the same time, it would be appreciated.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski, I suppose.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

12     make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to.  May I invite you

13     to make that solemn declaration.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  NEDJO VLASKI

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

19             Mr. Vlaski, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find

20     him to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

21             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  But with your leave I would

23     just shortly respond to the objections just heard from the Prosecution.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Not in the presence of the witness.

25             MR. LUKIC:  He does not speak English.  If you want, he can

Page 27721

 1     remove his headphones.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we would first have to establish that, that he

 3     doesn't speak any English.  In view of his education I thought perhaps he

 4     might.

 5             But could we -- I think the Chamber is quite willing to hear, but

 6     I also said that after Mr. Weber expressed some concerns that the Chamber

 7     would see how it develops.

 8             Is there any way that we could start with the examination of the

 9     witness now and that you would further respond after that.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I have to know how to proceed, whether

11     to go into details or just to offer the --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  There one simple basic rule, Mr. Lukic, and that is,

13     ask for facts known to the witness.  That's the reason why I gave this

14     short quote, to ask a witness what happened.  So clear source of

15     knowledge, clear facts.  That's what assists the Chamber.  Is that clear

16     enough guidance for you?

17             MR. LUKIC:  I think, Your Honour, that it will be -- become

18     clear.  I'm trying to find it in this proofing note as well what kind of

19     source of information this gentleman used performing his duties, so I

20     don't want to jump ahead.  But also I would like to tell and emphasise

21     that this 18-page --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  -- information report is probably more than half is

24     cut from the statement just for better understanding on which part of the

25     statement the comments are directed to when there is more comments on one

Page 27722

 1     paragraph.  So -- and we have -- I have with me six information reports

 2     offered by the Prosecution into the evidence.  I have their numbers here

 3     if Your Honours want to hear them.  This is -- this is not new in this

 4     trial, that we introduce information reports as -- as an evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm -- I'm not against it.  Perhaps --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you are not aware of the level of unsourced

 8     knowledge and opinion evidence -- let's not forget this is a witness of

 9     facts, and if I then read for these circumstances I can say that the fate

10     of Yugoslavia was decided by, that's opinion.  Again, I said we'll give

11     you the benefit of waiting and see how it develops.  And my guidance is

12     facts, clear source of knowledge, and then we'll see what happens.

13             MR. LUKIC:  But if I may, Your Honour, only in that same

14     paragraph you would find that he was actually providing security for one

15     of those meetings he mentioned.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And does that mean that the fate of Yugoslavia

17     was decided by.  I mean, as a security detail you can't know what

18     caused -- what was it that -- basis of the fate of Yugoslavia.  These are

19     general sweeping statements again.  And even if you're there as security

20     detail, that doesn't make an expert which could give these type of

21     opinions.

22             Again, you have the benefit of our doubt.  I would say use it.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 27723

 1                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   For the record, could you please state your name and surname

 5     slowly.

 6        A.   Nedjo Vlaski.

 7        Q.   Sorry, what is it that you have in front of you?

 8        A.   Just the statement that I signed.

 9        Q.   Could you please hand it over to the Prosecution so that they

10     could take look at it and see that there's nothing else there.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry, there is more in his hand, if you don't mind.

12             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, it appears to me to be a B/C/S copy of

13     the proposed redacted statement.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, whenever you want to consult it, you should

15     ask permission to do so.  So you can have it nearby but if you put it --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can manage without the statement.

17     There's no problem.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  It's available.  If you need to consult, just

19     tell us and explain why and then we'll decide on it.

20             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             Can we have on our screens 1D1768A.

23             Actually, probably we have a problem with the system this

24     morning.  That's the hard copy we distributed to everybody in and around

25     courtroom.  So we'll probably have to continue with hard copy of this

Page 27724

 1     statement, Your Honours, so then the witness should have his hard copy

 2     with him at the same time.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, the redacted version was already

 4     filed, so it must be in the system.  We received it morning as a filing.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I was told that it's not in the system, so if it

 6     is, I would be happy to have it on our screens.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you assist in any way?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I do not have the document in

 9     e-court.  However, I can try and see if can I find the filing that

10     Judge Fluegge --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes it was attached to the filing.  To that extent

12     it should be somewhere in the system.  If it's possible to show it on the

13     screen, that would be appreciated.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  I will do my best, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             For the time being, the witness can consult his version of the --

17     of his statement because I take it that you want the attestation --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to be made.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please take a copy of the

22     statement which was returned to you.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Could you please take your statement and I'm going to put

25     questions to you that are based on the statement.

Page 27725

 1             Did you provide a statement to the Defence of General Mladic at a

 2     certain point in time?

 3        A.   Yes, I did give them a statement.

 4        Q.   On the first page of the statement, do you see your signature?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

 7        A.   That is my signature.

 8        Q.   Could you please look at the last page of your statement.  And do

 9     you see a signature there?

10        A.   Yes, I see a signature and the date of the signature.

11        Q.   Whose signature is it and who put the date there?

12        A.   Yes.  This is my signature, and I wrote the date.

13        Q.   Now we will look at the redacted statement.  After it was

14     redacted, are the contents of the statement accurate and truthful,

15     according to your best recollection?

16        A.   Yes, this is what I was able to confirm.  At the time when I gave

17     the statement, everything was truthful and accurate and comported with

18     the facts as I recalled them.

19        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

20     provide the same answers?

21        A.   I would give the same answers to some questions, and I would

22     perhaps provide more detailed answers to some questions because I

23     acquired more detailed information on those questions since I provided

24     the original answers.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, did you speak with

Page 27726

 1     me?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   What did we do on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

 4        A.   We trimmed the statement that I gave during preparation.  We

 5     redacted certain parts of the statement, and we provided certain

 6     clarifications in terms of the exhibits or proof that we had at our

 7     disposal.

 8        Q.   I'm going to put all these questions to you before I tender the

 9     statement and the information report.  What kind of sources for your

10     information did you used when you were carrying out your duties?

11        A.   According to the rules of operation of our service, all available

12     sources --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the basis of the Prosecution's

15     objections weren't necessarily what the generic general sources of

16     information were but they're specific facts in the statement, and what

17     we're looking for is what the witness's foundation is for those facts.

18     Not some broad description of what an intelligence service has at its

19     disposal.  I just want to state that for the record.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I see that that is not your primary concern.

21     At the same time, the Chamber would like the witness to answer the

22     question, the generic question.  Not to say that the problem has been

23     resolved by that but we'd nevertheless would like to hear the answer of

24     the witness.

25             Could you please continue your answer.  You were stopped when you

Page 27727

 1     said, "According to the rules of operation of our service, all available

 2     sources ..."  Could you continue from there because we interrupted you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All available, formal, legal

 4     documents, public sources, all communications concerning persons of

 5     security interest were permitted and were the subject of the work of our

 6     service, including some specific methods and means the service uses, like

 7     gathering information through operatives, associates, gathering

 8     information through methods which perhaps violate secret private

 9     communications over the telephone, through carrying out illegal searches,

10     following subjects, and all the other means that are at the disposal of a

11     service such as mine.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.  We've heard the answer of the

13     witness.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to put on the record that, in the

16     meantime, Madam Registrar was able to put the document, the statement on

17     the record, we see it in front of us.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  It would hopefully help a

19     lot with today's trial.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We would offer, Your Honour,

22     both the statement and information report provided by this witness and

23     having in mind that information report is confidential since there are

24     some names mentioned this witness wants to protect, not to put them in

25     any kind of danger.  We'd offer both of those documents into evidence.

Page 27728

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution does have objections I can rehash

 3     them.  I've made them a record already.  If -- I leave it to counsel's

 4     whether he wants to further remedy anything that we've made known as our

 5     objections during the course of their objections -- course of our

 6     objections.  Otherwise, we're willing to have the material MFI'd at this

 7     point in time with the -- it being very clear that we made our objections

 8     known and counsel is having the opportunity to remedy them during their

 9     examination if they so wish.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Both documents will be MFI'd.

11             Mr. Lukic, the report, the information report provisionally under

12     seal, the fact that the witness wants to protect certain names doesn't

13     mean that we are following that suggestion but for the time being it will

14     be under seal.

15             Madam Registrar, the numbers would be.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the redacted statement that has

17     65 ter number 1D1768A will receive exhibit number D735.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D735 is MFI'd.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  And, Your Honours, the information report will

20     receive number D736.  However, I'm not clear on the number it will

21     receive in e-court once it's uploaded.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Number D736 is reserved for the information

23     report which is confidential and once uploaded will be there.

24             Mr. Lukic, just for your information, you asked for more

25     guidance, and I said focus on facts and source of knowledge.  I'll just

Page 27729

 1     allude to one example of your information statement.

 2             If I look at the comment to paragraph 43 of the statement, it

 3     reads:  "This paragraph is self-explanatory."

 4             Yes?  Now paragraph 43 is without any source of knowledge and

 5     gives almost exclusively opinion evidence and hardly any facts.  Keep

 6     that in mind if you think that the matter has been resolved by your

 7     information report.  And it's just one example that I give to you.  And

 8     if you would read it, it's all opinion.

 9             But I'll let you -- please proceed as you consider appropriate.

10     We'll later decide on admission of the statement.  Also in view of how

11     your examination-in-chief has developed and has clarified issues.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, in paragraph 8 of information report, we

13     said that all information this witness gathered and presented in his

14     statement is strictly work-related.  So, in paragraph 43 --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. LUKIC:  -- he was part of that system and his job was to

17     follow such a developments.  He told me, if you want, you can ask him

18     what he told me, actually, but it's obvious emanating from his work.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if you read what remains from

22     paragraph 43, "The legitimate interest and goals by the Serbian political

23     representatives," that's opinion.  Isn't it?  Whether it's legitimate or

24     not, what exactly their interest was is not explained.

25             MR. LUKIC:  If you --

Page 27730

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  These calls were without effect.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  If you read the whole statement, you would find what

 3     the Serbs were trying to protect:  Their right to stay -- to have the

 4     same status they had before.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Legitimate is an opinion, is a legal opinion,

 6     Mr. Lukic.  And if at the same time you say they were subjected to

 7     various accusations and pressure, this was a case of tendentious

 8     depictions of the political and security situation wherein only the

 9     Serbian side was negatively portrayed, that's all opinion.  If you are

10     not aware of that, Mr. Lukic, you have a problem during your

11     examination-in-chief, which you are now about to start.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I will read a short

14     statement summary of this witness, and then I will have a few questions

15     for him.

16             [No interpretation]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Lukic provide the interpreters with a

18     copy of the summary, please.

19             MR. LUKIC:  It's in B/C/S.  I can provide it to the interpreters,

20     no problem, but I will need the help of the usher.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And if you only have the B/C/S version, would you

22     please slowly read it, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After completing his education, he

24     started his police career in the City Secretariat of the Interior, in

25     Sarajevo on public security tasks.  After a year, he was transferred to

Page 27731

 1     the State Security Service where he worked on all types of assignments,

 2     ranging from desk officer for operations equipment, inspector for

 3     security background checks, security of buildings and persons, inspector

 4     on internal affairs matters, and as chief of the SDB administration for

 5     security of persons and buildings.  Mr. Vlaski began to work in 1975.

 6             Nedjo Vlaski will testify about the work of his service.  He will

 7     testify about monitoring of all types of nationalism in the former

 8     Yugoslavia, as well as about the monitoring of the group Young Muslims, a

 9     group whose member was Alija Izetbegovic, as well as the monitoring of

10     the trial conducted against this group in 1983 when the group's members

11     were convicted to prison sentences on charges as a well-organised group

12     that wanted to topple the constitutional system of the country and create

13     an ethnically pure Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14             He will talk about the surveillance of specific persons,

15     including Alija Izetbegovic, after he was released from prison.  Also, he

16     will talk about the establishment of the Party of Democratic Action, the

17     core of which was formed by members of the Young Muslims group and

18     religious officials of the Islamic community of Bosnia.  The witness will

19     also speak about the actions of Alija Izetbegovic unrelated to any

20     institutions and also about the influence of the Sura, the Islamic

21     advisory council, on the functioning of the Party for Democratic Action

22     and the actions of Alija Izetbegovic.

23             Mr. Vlaski will also speak about the anti-constitutional

24     activities of Muslim and Croat politicians of Bosnia and Herzegovina

25     following elections which were held in 1990 aimed at the breakup of

Page 27732

 1     Yugoslavia.

 2             So this was the gist of the description of the tasks that were

 3     performed by Mr. Vlaski.

 4             He will also testify about the wire-tapping of Serb cadres and

 5     how it was conducted completely outside of the established system of

 6     institutional checks and balances.  The witness will also talk about how

 7     Alija Izetbegovic managed to acquire almost complete control over all the

 8     sectors of the police.  Nedjo Vlaski will testify about the division in

 9     the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the conflict broke out and

10     about the links of Muslim politicians with criminals in Sarajevo before

11     and after the conflict broke out.  This intermingling of the Muslim

12     leadership in the police and criminals created a favourable ground for

13     the expulsion and killing of Serbs in Sarajevo.  All of it began with the

14     unpunished killing of Nikola Gardovic who was in a wedding party in the

15     centre of Sarajevo whereby it was known who was the killer but the police

16     did not do anything about it.  This continued with the killing of Serbian

17     policeman Pero Petrovic at the police station in Novo Sarajevo, who was

18     killed in front of his colleagues, Muslims, by the Green Berets.  This

19     marked the open season on Serbs in Sarajevo.

20             The witness will also explain the manner in which Muslim police

21     officials armed Muslims and how they sent Muslim policemen for training

22     in Croatia.

23             That would be the summary for this witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  You have any further

25     questions for the witness?  Unless you would rather leave that until

Page 27733

 1     after the break and then --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I -- I can break now.  It's a convenient time.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then how much time would you need after

 4     the break?

 5             MR. LUKIC:  My plan was not to spend much time --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- in leading this witness, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll -- and what do you mean by "not

 9     much time"?

10             Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:  I was deferring to your question, Your Honour.

12             MR. LUKIC:  We have to hear two audio recordings, and I might,

13     during the break, find something from this informational report to go

14     through with the witness.  So probably 15 minutes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's fine.  We'll take a break.

16             We will -- yes, Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:  I'm so sorry, Your Honour.  I just wanted to -- there

18     is a number of objections the Prosecution did have and some of them were

19     a foundational nature.  I did communicate them to the Defence last week.

20     If during the break if Mr. Lukic has any further information about those

21     matters, dates, and when these documents were authored, things of that

22     nature, I'd appreciate it just before I begin cross.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think the Chamber explained that it will

24     usually not insist on -- on always to redact unsourced parts or --

25     et cetera but of course that the parties should be aware that if there

Page 27734

 1     are no sources given for the knowledge of the witness, then of course the

 2     probative value, if any at all, may not be -- may not be at a level the

 3     party presenting that evidence might expect or wish.

 4             MR. WEBER:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I may not have been clear.

 5     I was talking about the associated documents.  So --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I understood you.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from that, I was briefly addressing Mr. Lukic

 9     as well who said that he would need some 15 minutes.

10             We take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But, yes, first the witness should be escorted out

13     of courtroom.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We take the break.

16                           --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber you're on your feet.

19             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20             I just was reviewing the transcript over the break and I just --

21     it appears to me that there's been no 92 ter foundation established for

22     D736 marked for identification, the information report.  I just wanted to

23     put that on the record.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you take care of that.  Ask the

25     witness to read the statement, not the information report which -- I

Page 27735

 1     don't know whether it's also available in the B/C/S or not.  Is it?

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I'll ask him.  We -- I read him word by word the

 3     whole information report.  We went word by word.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  We spent the whole Sunday on that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's not the best basis for a --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  All the Prosecution statements are read back to the

 8     witnesses before they sign it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But they're always also available in a language that

10     witness can understand.  Isn't it?

11             MR. LUKIC:  Provided later.  If you want me, I can provide later

12     to this with witness the same.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's -- we are now not talking about signatures

14     on the statements.  We are talking about admission into evidence and an

15     attestation by the witness not before a signature but before admission

16     under Rule 92 ter.  That's a different matter.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, before the witness comes in --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

20             MR. LUKIC:  And you can check it with the witness, if you wish

21     so.  Actually, this English version is made from the Serbian version.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay but --

23             MR. LUKIC:  Only not in this order and not this nicely put

24     everything together, but first recorded what the witness told me, then I

25     written this English version.

Page 27736

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that's all done outside of court.  We

 3     cannot check in any way the accuracy of all that so, therefore,

 4     Mr. Lukic -- and since the witness now also cannot read the English

 5     version and since we most likely will not finish the testimony of the

 6     witness today, you might find a solution overnight for that and then

 7     present it tomorrow.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Vlaski, again a question that has to do with

12     this report.  How did you and I go through this report?

13        A.   We went through it by analysing each and every paragraph in the

14     statement, and then on the basis of the facts that were set out in the

15     statement we provided a broader overview.

16        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Yesterday, on Sunday, how did we go

17     through this report that was written in English?

18        A.   Well, we read the -- the statement and we looked at the evidence

19     that I had.  That is to say, augmenting all of this through the evidence

20     that I had available to me.

21        Q.   You said that you have some documents.  Before you started

22     testifying, I came to see you during the break and I took three

23     documents.  Do you have more documents in your possession?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, if we are still with the information

25     report, this doesn't help.  What we need to receive that report or the

Page 27737

 1     content of that report in evidence is either to elicit it viva voce,

 2     which would take hours, or to have it translated --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  I will --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And to seek the attestation of the witness to that

 5     additional information.  That's what we need.  And there's -- how you

 6     produced it, et cetera, is -- well, may explain something but is not fit

 7     as the basis for admission into evidence.  That's the issue.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

10             MR. LUKIC:  I will abide by your guidance.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Vlaski, for example, if your working hours are from say,

14     8.00 a.m. until 4.00 p.m., if you hear some information that is of

15     interest to your service, say, 10.00 or 11.00, or 3.00 in the morning,

16     can you disregard that information?

17        A.   From an operative point of view, everything information that is

18     of security interest has to be taken into account because this mosaic

19     about somebody's activity is put together on the basis of this minute

20     information that is gathered during the work of operatives.

21        Q.   During your work, was following the media a permissible source of

22     information?

23        A.   In the rules of the security service, all the public sources of

24     information available were one of the methods of collecting information.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'll ask you briefly --

Page 27738

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, just before we get too far afield.

 2     There were changes in the rules of security service if I recall at

 3     different points in time.  If we could just have some precision just

 4     about what time of work, what period the witness is referring to?

 5     Because he might have had some different assignments at different times?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  How relevant is that?  Whatever sources the office

 7     would gather, the issue is whether those sources of knowledge are

 8     sufficient for us.  That's the issue.  I mean, of course, you can read

 9     newspapers and whether you want to prepare reports on the basis of

10     newspapers is fine.  But, of course, what this Chamber has to do is to

11     evaluate the evidence and to see what role newspapers - and I'm not

12     saying none - but what role newspapers can play in our job to establish

13     the facts.  That's the issue rather than the issue you just touched upon.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] If you would receive some information through

17     the media, what was the procedure that would follow?

18        A.   Well, all information that is of security significance is

19     compared to information that is obtained through other types of operative

20     work.  It is used as a kind of guide-line.

21        Q.   Mr. Weber, my colleague from the other side, put a question.

22     Could you be more specific in terms of when the media could be used as a

23     source of information?  You worked in a certain period of time before the

24     war and then a different period of time after the war, and you were in

25     the same line of work.  Did anything change?  Was anything banned in the

Page 27739

 1     meantime?  Was anything done to disallow media?

 2        A.   Media are a very important source of information.  They were used

 3     in two different ways, in a two-sided manner, because the media are a way

 4     in which both information and misinformation can be presented.

 5        Q.   Now let us go back to material sources.  The documentation that

 6     was available to the State Security Service in Sarajevo, where is it

 7     today?  Did it remain in Sarajevo or did you take it?

 8        A.   Well, there were several ways in which documentation was kept.

 9     Older documents were kept at the Zlatiste facility as far as I know

10     because I was in charge of that facility when I was chief of the

11     department for providing security for persons and buildings.  That is

12     where information from previous periods was stored.  And then in

13     different safety boxes in the State Security Service offices, other

14     documents were stored.  And then other documents, yet other documents

15     were kept in the analysis department of the security service.

16        Q.   Let me just ask you something.  Can you tell us what remained in

17     the hands of your service out of all of this, your service that remained

18     in the territory that was under Muslim forces control?

19        A.   After military operations that ensued, some of these documents

20     were taken and part of the documents that were under the territory -- on

21     the territory of Republika Srpska authorities were kept there, whereas

22     the documents that were kept in facilities that were under the control of

23     the Muslim part of the area, that remained in their hands.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

25     be asked to speak slowly.  Thank you.

Page 27740

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to speak more slowly.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   And do pause before answering my question.

 5             Documentation that your service had, was it destroyed; and if so,

 6     did you take part in that?

 7        A.   According to the rules of service, in certain periods of time

 8     documentation is destroyed.  Just before the first multi-party elections

 9     were held, if I can put it that way, we had this thankless task to

10     destroy part of the documentation there for political reasons and some

11     other reasons; namely, that certain methods of work of the service and

12     certain documentation in respect of certain individuals before the

13     multi-party elections could be destroyed so that it would not be the

14     subject of certain manipulations.

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A vast amount of this documentation

17     was destroyed.  I can say by way of illustration that I had three safes

18     in my office and lots of these materials that did not really have much

19     value and they were destroyed.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   For example, documentation that has to do with monitoring

22     Young Muslims, where is that?  What do you think?  Do you think it's

23     still there?

24        A.   I know that this part of the documentation was stored at the

25     department for documents.  Unfortunately, part of this documentation -

Page 27741

 1     that is to say, the part that is on microfilm - was taken away unlawfully

 2     by the chief of the State Security Service, Branko Kvesic, as he left the

 3     service and as he went from Sarajevo to Mostar to the area of

 4     Herceg-Bosna.  Specific documentation about the activities of this group,

 5     the Young Muslims, was on those premises, and I had direct insight into

 6     that documentation before the multi-party elections were held.

 7             May I explain why I had this insight?  I can continue, if you

 8     wish.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to Mr. Lukic whether he puts questions to

10     you in this respect.  And, again, Mr. Lukic, general statements do not

11     always help us very much.  Rather, we'd like to know when the witness

12     says A or B, why he knew about A or B.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

14        Q.   You've heard what the Judge is interested in.  Please tell us

15     when this happened, if you know, and explain what it is that you wish to

16     explain to us.

17        A.   My superiors from the top of the security service, that is the

18     period before the multi-party elections were held, gave me the task of

19     looking into this documentation.  On the basis of a cross-section that

20     was supposed to be made, the leadership of the service planned to take

21     certain measures of protection for operatives, inspectors, who did this

22     work because some revengism was to be expected from the newly established

23     authorities that, on the basis of our assessment, were supposed to come

24     precisely from those circles that had been the subject of our operations

25     beforehand.

Page 27742

 1             Let me say by way of information that out of a few members of the

 2     Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic was criminally prosecuted as well as

 3     Fikret Abdic, Franjo Boras, and in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 4     Momcilo Krajisnik.

 5             I did review the entire files and documents that referred to the

 6     activities of The Young Muslims group who, headed by Alija Izetbegovic,

 7     were convicted in the trial held in 1983, and based on my review of those

 8     files, I had the opportunity to get to know numerous documents on that

 9     topic that were in the file.  I submitted a report so that the service

10     leadership could make a plan to protect the operatives, inspectors, who

11     took part in certain measures, searches, informative interviews,

12     investigations, or who were in any way would be possibly exposed as being

13     part of these activities.

14             I also know that a part of the documentation disappeared from the

15     department for documents.  This particularly applies to the dossier of

16     Mr. Adil Zulfikarpasic who was a subject for many years of our work

17     because he took part in the actions of the democratic alternative that

18     was formed abroad for the purposes of working to change the system and

19     the organs of power in the SFRY.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us exactly how you found out that the

21     dossier Zulfikarpasic disappeared?

22        A.   This happened quite early on because Adil Zulfikarpasic when he

23     came to Yugoslavia tried to gain an access to that dossier through

24     certain connections in the country.  However, there was some compromising

25     material from the dossier that was taken out of the file and passed on to

Page 27743

 1     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, is there any way we could have some

 4     context as to when this occurred?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Lukic, apart from context, could you

 6     please put your questions in such a way that we do not get long stories

 7     which are, for us, not easy to link to what seems to be the core of this

 8     case and the core of the statement of the witness.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I'm closing to the end.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Are you able to tell us when this happened?

12        A.   The disappearance of the file happened in 1991.

13        Q.   And what is the source of your knowledge and do you know who

14     actually participated in the taking away of this dossier?

15        A.   I do have some information.  I don't have any proof though, so I

16     do have operative information as is the practice in our part of the

17     world, so it was information gained from sources that, based on operative

18     knowledge, were able to access such information.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speakers please not overlap and

20     repeat the last two or three exchanges for purposes of interpretation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you're overlapping with Mr. Lukic.

22             You told us - and I invite you to resume from there - you told us

23     that it was information gained from sources that, based on operative

24     knowledge, were able to access such information.

25             And could you please repeat what you said after that, unless

Page 27744

 1     Mr. Lukic's interruption was meant to stop the witness.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Oh, no.  It wasn't.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Could you please resume on from there, Witness.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were our internal

 5     conversations by operatives who at that time were working in the State

 6     Security Service.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we go to the private session, actually.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we now try to get an answer to the question.

 9             Could you tell us what facts are known to you which would shed

10     any light on who were the ones who made that material disappear in 1991.

11             So what facts do you know, even if you gained the information

12     from operative sources?

13             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, exactly, that's why we have to go to the

14     private session.  That's why he's reluctant.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's move into private session for the time

16     being.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27745

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, this concludes my direct examination of

16     this witness.  And I don't know when we should deal with the documents.

17             MR. WEBER:  We're in a position to deal with them now and it

18     might be useful to actually deal with them before cross-examination.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Documents now being the Defence exhibits for

20     Witness Vlaski.  Let's go through them one by one.  I think if I look at

21     the list, it starts with non-associated exhibits you want to tender, or

22     do you want to tender associated exhibits only?

23             MR. LUKIC:  Associated exhibit and --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  The first one is the redacted signed

25     statement and that's one that we have dealt with.

Page 27746

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the second and the third on my list are

 3     P2984 and P2996 already in evidence.  Which brings us to 1D03114, list of

 4     persons.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Objections.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Objection based on relevance.  There is no time or

 8     temporal context for this document and none has been established with the

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

11             MR. LUKIC:  This witness can provide us with that details but

12     it's obvious after the elections in 1990.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, that leaves still 24 years.

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's only for the period after those elections.

15     That -- how the power was distributed.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And where in [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             MR. LUKIC:  If it's not necessary -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

18     sorry.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where in the statement did the witness comment on

20     it?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What paragraph?  Because for associated exhibits,

22     it's required that we can't understand the statement without the

23     documents.

24             MR. LUKIC:  I'm afraid we might use too much time.  Then my

25     proposition to Your Honours is --

Page 27747

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  -- that the cross starts and I will prepare in which

 3     paragraphs this was mentioned.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             Now, Mr. Weber, I take it that you'll have certainly some

 6     subjects in cross-examination which could you start before you -- before

 7     you -- we have dealt with all the associated exhibits.

 8             And, Mr. Lukic, would you carefully prepare the further

 9     submissions on the admission of the associated exhibits.  By the way,

10     Mr. Weber, I'm informed that -- well, that was a question by the Chamber,

11     that it's paragraph 48 which deals with this document.

12             MR. LUKIC:  48, yes.  Now I have the list with the paragraphs.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You have them all?  Then we can continue.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Not all.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Not all.  Then we'll skip it.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And we'll ask Mr. Weber to start his

18     cross-examination.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vlaski, you'll now be cross-examined by

21     Mr. Weber.  You'll find him to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the

22     Prosecution.

23             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

25        Q.   Just to finish up on a -- well, good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski.

Page 27748

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Since we were talking about the conversations you had with the

 3     Defence over the weekend, I was just wondering yesterday, on Sunday,

 4     when -- in your decisions with the Defence, did you make any

 5     clarifications or corrections to information that you provided them on

 6     the days before, on Friday and Saturday.

 7        A.   We just shortened it and perhaps some arguments that could

 8     substantiate the facts that are mentioned in the statement.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Do I understand correctly from your answer that there were

10     changes, then, that you made yesterday?

11        A.   There were no changes.  It's just that certain parts of the

12     opinions in the statement were made more specific in order to provide

13     more details about the sources of information and to substantiate the

14     number of documents that could back up the information.  This is

15     information that I -- I do have.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, I'm afraid that we may not fully

17     understand each other or the witness might not understand you fully.

18             The issue raised by Mr. Weber is especially whether after you had

19     talked on Friday and on Saturday with your Defence, whether in your

20     discussions on Sunday anything was added or further explained or -- that

21     is what Mr. Weber would like to know.

22             Can you tell us whether in the continued conversation on Sunday

23     anything changed what had you dealt with on Friday and Saturday?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had a statement that I gave to

25     the Defence team, the statement that contains a number of the evidence

Page 27749

 1     that would give an authentic form to my statement.  So that is the

 2     statement that I provided to the Defence team.

 3             MR. WEBER:

 4        Q.   I'm not sure that we have clarified this.  The precise issue that

 5     I'm asking this for is because I have been provided with information from

 6     the Defence that is dated the 1st of November, which is Saturday.  I've

 7     not received information from the Defence after Saturday.  So then I'm

 8     specifically asking you whether there -- during your conversations on

 9     Sunday, yesterday, were there changes?

10        A.   I did not add anything.  All I wanted to do was to present the

11     documents that I have in my possession.  I have them in my room.  So I

12     wanted to present them in the sense that my attention was drawn to the

13     fact that parts of the statement needed to be redacted so that it would

14     gain evidentiary weight.  So that was the thing that was done.

15        Q.   Was there anything to the Defence that you indicated that you

16     needed to remove?

17        A.   I did not think that anything needed to be removed from my

18     statement.  I believe that that was my opinion, my position, about the

19     events that I am testifying about.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I'm going to leave it for now.  Maybe

22     tomorrow when the information report is uploaded I'd actually go into

23     that a little bit more.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

25             MR. WEBER:  I don't think it's clear to the witness quite what

Page 27750

 1     we're talking about.

 2        Q.   Sir --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Sorry for interrupting, I think we were informed that

 4     the information is uploaded into the system.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's at least -- then we can everything on

 7     our screens -- well, if you have another few questions --

 8             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we have three minutes -- more minutes to go.

10             MR. WEBER:

11        Q.   Sir, I just wanted to also -- before we break for the day, I was

12     wondering if I could ask you this afternoon or this evening before we

13     come back tomorrow if you could look at the first remaining

14     paragraphs before paragraph 96 and let us know tomorrow when we start

15     whether or not everything you describe in those paragraphs occurred

16     before April 1992.  Do you understand that?

17             You don't have to do it now.  I'm not asking you to go through

18     each paragraph right now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by the first remaining paragraphs

20     before paragraph 96?

21             MR. WEBER:  I --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that everything that comes from 1 to 95?

23             MR. WEBER:  Actually up to and including 96.  And I belive now

24     that -- there are some redacted paragraphs, so forgive me if I did not

25     articulate that very well.  But what I'm asking the witness to do is if

Page 27751

 1     there's any way he could review what's in the redacted statement from

 2     paragraphs 1 up to and including paragraph 96 and let us know tomorrow

 3     morning when we start if everything he is describing occurred before

 4     April 1992.  And if not, to tell us what paragraph did not.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that clear to you?  Mr. Vlaski, is that clear to

 6     you that --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's clear to me.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether it all happened before April 1992 and if

 9     not to tell us tomorrow what events did take place either in April or

10     after April 1992.

11             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, with that being said I'm going to get

12     into documents -- oh, I'm sorry.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It seems from what I hear -- okay, it seems to

14     be no problem.

15             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I'm going to get right into documents

16     and it might take longer than where we're at right now, so if we can

17     continue tomorrow.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then adjourn for the day.

19             Mr. Vlaski -- Mr. Weber is invited to switch off his microphone.

20     Yes, which he has done by now.

21             Mr. Vlaski, before we adjourn I'd like to instruct you that you

22     should not speak or communicate in whatever way, with whomever, about

23     your testimony, whether that is testimony already given today, or

24     anything about your conversations with the Defence over the last weekend,

25     or whether that is about testimony still to be given tomorrow or perhaps

Page 27752

 1     even the day after tomorrow.

 2             If that's clear to you, you're invited to follow the usher, and

 3     we'd like to see you back at 9.30 tomorrow morning in this same

 4     courtroom, I.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we adjourn, if the parties could in any way

 7     exchange the information about the associated exhibits to see whether

 8     there are any remaining questions or not so as to allow the Chamber to be

 9     focused tomorrow on what associated exhibits are in dispute.

10             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I -- the Prosecution last Thursday

11     provided a list with its objections on each exhibit and what they are and

12     the ones that we don't object to.  So we've received no further

13     information since then.  We'd, of course, appreciate any further

14     information.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm afraid my friend is not completely accurate.  We

17     provided them with the audio recording he requested.

18             MR. WEBER:  And -- Mr. Lukic is right.  My apologies.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That is a good end of the day.  We adjourn

20     and will resume tomorrow Tuesday, the 4th of November, and the parties

21     are already made aware that Judge Fluegge tomorrow will be unable to

22     continue to sit on this case, to hear the case for urgent personal

23     reasons, and therefore, most likely only for one day, we'll sit 15 bis.

24             We adjourn.

25                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

Page 27753

 1                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of

 2                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.