141103ED

Page 27665

1 you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

3 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 WITNESS: MANE DJURIC [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

7 Q. Good morning, sir.

8 A. Good morning.

9 Q. I want to start this morning with the topic of paramilitaries.

10 Now, you mentioned in your statement that measures were taken against

11 paramilitaries and I've just a few questions about that.

12 First, before measures were taken against the paramilitaries,

13 they were causing problems for the Serb population; right?

14 A. Yes, they were causing problems for the Serb population and for

15 the Bosniak Muslim population.

16 Q. And those included breaking into Serb houses and flats?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Included disturbing the peace generally?

19 A. Exactly. Disturbing the peace, breaking into apartments,

20 looting, so the police within the domain of its authority and powers took

21 all necessary measures and to that end the Crisis Staff also adopted

22 certain instructions on forbidding any breaking into abandoned apartments

23 and houses.

24 Q. Now in paragraph 51 of your statement, you're discussing

25 parliaments and you say:

Page 27666

1 "These units had become so arrogant that they did not shrink from

2 stopping an official vehicle that transported our minister from abusing

3 him, getting him out of the vehicle, et cetera."

4 Now the specific paramilitary unit that did this was the

5 Yellow Wasps, right?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Now the minister you're referring to was Minister of the Interior

8 Mico Stanisic, retire?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And you're aware the Yellow Wasps had also stopped and mistreated

11 Mr. Velibor Ostojic; right?

12 A. Correct, correct. Since Velibor Ostojic had less protection and

13 a smaller security detail, then he was exposed to more mistreatment.

14 Q. I want to focus on the incident with Minister Stanic for a

15 moment. You learnt about this incident in 1992; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You learned about it from his driver? Minister Stanic's driver.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it had happened either the same day or the day before you

20 that learned about it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now among other things you were told to get the police ready and

23 expect an order, weren't you?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And the order to conduct an operation against the Yellow Wasps

Page 27667

1 was issued a day or two later; right?

2 A. Approximately that way.

3 Q. I want to turn now to the Vlasenica SJB's relationship with the

4 army. To start, the JNA's Novi Sad Corps left Vlasenica on or around the

5 19th of May, 1992; right?

6 A. That's right. The order was that the former JNA had to leave the

7 area of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the 19th of May, 1992.

8 Q. Now, when they left they left behind equipment and armoured

9 personnel carriers; right?

10 A. Yes. Part of the equipment stayed behind. I don't know what the

11 exact quantity was, but at any rate it wasn't a significant quantity.

12 Q. Some soldiers also stayed behind; right?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And the soldiers and equipment became part of the VRS's

15 Birac Brigade; right?

16 A. Yes, yes. Since a decision had already been reached to establish

17 the Army of Republika Srpska. Everything became part of the Army of

18 Republika Srpska, and this equipment was kept by the Army of

19 Republika Srpska.

20 Q. And your SJB carried out some of its activities in co-ordination

21 with military organs; correct?

22 A. Yes. At first it was with the Territorial Defence and later,

23 when the Army of Republika Srpska was established, with the members of

24 the Army of Republika Srpska acting either in concert or co-ordinated

25 action.

Page 27668

1 MR. TRALDI: Now, could we have 65 ter 1D02348.

2 Q. Now, as we're waiting for the English, this is a report you sent

3 to the Romanija Birac CSB on the 6th of August, 1992.

4 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 2 in the English and the

5 third paragraph of page 1 in the B/C/S.

6 Q. We see here in the second paragraph in the English:

7 "The public security station co-ordinated its activity and

8 performed it jointly with organs of the army, particularly when those

9 carrying out the activities were persons who were directly engaged in war

10 operations."

11 That's correct; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Turning to page 3 in the English and 2 in the B/C/S, the last

14 paragraph, we read in pertinent part:

15 "We deem that the level of co-operation and a joint action by

16 employees of the public security station and members of the army is

17 satisfactory ..."

18 So at the time you were satisfied with the level of co-operation

19 between the SJB and the VRS; right?

20 A. That's right. Our objective was to establish institutions, just

21 as the Army of Republika Srpska wanted to do. So these institutions

22 should function headed by the Main Staff in accordance with procedures

23 that were in force because from the point of view of public security and

24 safety that was the only way to operate, and also from the point of view

25 of the Army of Republika Srpska, to have successful defence against the

Page 27669

1 enemy.

2 Q. Now, looking at the previous paragraph, we see a discussion of

3 curbing and preventing crimes by members of the army and the note that

4 related to this, 30 reports and other notices were submitted. Those

5 reports would have been submitted to the VRS when the offences were

6 believed to have been committed by members of the army; right?

7 A. That is what I assume.

8 Q. Well, let's try and go beyond assumptions. If you're information

9 indicated that members of the military had committed crimes, you would

10 turn that information over to the military, like we see described here;

11 right?

12 A. That's right. At first before the military police started

13 function or, rather, the crime prevention service within the Army of

14 Republika Srpska, we were the ones who recorded these crimes committed.

15 And then when this service was established in the VRS, all of these cases

16 that have to do with soldiers, members of the VRS, were referred to them,

17 to the crime prevention service of the military police.

18 Q. That was because crimes committed by members of the VRS at that

19 time were in the jurisdiction of the VRS; right?

20 A. Correct. But these institutions hadn't started functioning

21 officially yet. As soon as that happened, we had a meeting and we

22 referred all these cases to the military service that was in charge. And

23 later, on the system functioned as follows. If the police would notice

24 that members of the VRS were committing certain crimes, then they would

25 notify the military police of that and they would take measures as

Page 27670

1 envisaged by the law.

2 Q. Now, in fact, you've said in one of your interviews that the VRS

3 would complain if you got involved in dealing with crimes by members of

4 the VRS. That's true, isn't it?

5 A. Correct. I would just explain that. In order to prevent any

6 kind of clash in terms of jurisdictions, we acted in accordance with that

7 we referred all cases to the VRS, those cases that they would be in

8 charge of.

9 Q. And that meant that if you believed a crime to be in jurisdiction

10 of the army, you didn't investigate; right?

11 A. In the later period we did not investigate. We would just hand

12 over all the information we had to the VRS or, rather, the crime

13 prevention service of the military police of the VRS.

14 Q. I want to go back now briefly to a couple of the points we

15 addressed last week.

16 MR. TRALDI: And before I do, actually, I'll tender this

17 document.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1D2348 receives number P6878.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P6878 is admitted.

21 MR. TRALDI: And I'd ask that we call up 65 ter 06393.

22 Q. We discussed last week what would be done with policemen who were

23 believed to have committed crimes and their provision to the VRS. In

24 fact, the minister of the interior had ordered that such policemen be

25 placed at the disposal of the VRS; right?

Page 27671

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And looking at this document, this is an order from

3 Minister Stanic dated the 23rd of July, 1992. It says at the top that

4 this order arose out of the: "Session of the collegium on 23 July 1992,"

5 among other things.

6 Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now last Thursday we discussed the collegium of the chief of the

9 CSB. Did the minister also hold collegiums in which he received

10 information from the CSB chiefs?

11 A. Yes. That's subordination in the Ministry of Interior. The

12 minister when necessary would convene this collegium of the minister,

13 that's what it was called, and it was attended by all chiefs of the

14 centres of the security services and also advisors to the minister. So

15 this was a higher level.

16 Q. And this order reflects the minister's policy that we discussed a

17 moment ago, the policemen who committed criminal offences should be

18 placed at the disposal of the VRS; right?

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. Now point 2 explains who's responsible for the execution of the

21 order including, chiefs of public security centres. Now, you implemented

22 this order in Vlasenica by making officers who had committed crimes

23 available to the VRS; right?

24 A. That's right.

25 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 06393.

Page 27672

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 06393 receives number P6879.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P6879 is admitted.

4 MR. TRALDI:

5 Q. Next, sir - and I'm done with this document - we spoke last week

6 about some log-books and criminal registers kept in Vlasenica. I'd like

7 to try and be a little bit more specific about the ones that existed.

8 First, the police kept a disciplinary register where disciplinary

9 violations by members of the police were recorded; right?

10 A. Yes. That's where all these records are kept.

11 Q. Second, there was something called a K log-book kept in the

12 police station recording criminal cases before those cases were handed

13 over to the prosecutor's office; right?

14 A. That's right. That's the K log-book, that is to say, the crime

15 log-book where all the crimes are logged regardless of whether the

16 perpetrators are known or unknown.

17 Q. And the prosecutor's office kept a KT log-book for known

18 perpetrators cases, and a KTN for unknown perpetrator cases; right?

19 A. Yes, the prosecutor's office also had a log-book of their own;

20 that is to say, once we as a police would deal with a criminal report,

21 then we would have it hand it over to the prosecutor's office. On the

22 basis of this information that we had submitted, the prosecutor can

23 accept that report, ask for additional information, or reject it all

24 together.

25 Q. And it's the prosecutor's log-book that you confirmed last week

Page 27673

1 had no mention of prosecutions of Serbs for crimes against non-Serbs;

2 right?

3 A. That's right. That was the log-book of the prosecutor's office

4 and this was taken out of context. Only the part that had to do with the

5 seizure of weapons. However, there were many other crimes there,

6 180-something criminal reports that were filed. I don't have the

7 structure of these crimes here right now, but it is certain that all of

8 that was filed.

9 Q. Well, let's look at one of the reports you sent about crimes.

10 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31547.

11 Q. This is a report you sent to the Romanija Birac CSB on the 25th

12 of September, 1992; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, it discusses crimes and other violations by members of the

15 police; right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Looking to the third paragraph, it reflects eight criminal

18 reports against members of the police. Now, none of those were filed for

19 crimes against non-Serbs, were they?

20 A. Well, I cannot say exactly right now, but eight criminal reports

21 were filed. Armed robbery, things like that. Anyway, it's within that

22 domain.

23 Q. And these were mostly thefts and robberies, that type of crime;

24 right?

25 A. I think most of them were.

Page 27674

1 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 31547.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 31547 receives number P6880.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

5 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 189.

6 Q. This is the transcript of one of your interviews.

7 And you were asked beginning at line 23 after looking at the

8 document we've just seen, now P6880:

9 "With regard to all of these crimes and transgressions, were any

10 of them for actions taken against non-Serbs?"

11 And you responded:

12 "See in, in regards to criminal reports [sic], no."

13 Now, does that refresh your recollection as to whether any of the

14 eight criminal reports filed against police officers in Vlasenica in the

15 summer of 1992 were filed for crimes they committed against non-Serbs?

16 A. Well, it's very difficult to speak about that now, but let's say

17 if a policeman committed a robbery, and most frequently they would loot

18 Muslim property, then it could have happened that a report was submitted

19 on that matter.

20 Q. You say it could have happened. You're not aware of any reports

21 filed against police officers for crimes against non-Serbs, are you?

22 A. I cannot recall any crimes specifically at that time. Perhaps

23 there was some open investigations, but I don't believe that the final

24 result then was a criminal report.

25 MR. TRALDI: Okay. If we could go into private session.

Page 27683

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

2 Have you ever considered to lodge any protest against what

3 clearly was an announcement of the destruction of a religious -- a

4 religious monument?

5 Yes, Witness, have you received translation of the question?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'll repeat the question for you.

8 Have you ever considered to lodge any protest against what

9 clearly was an announcement of the destruction of a religious monument?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, at that

11 point in time, our goal was to inform the population to avoid anybody

12 getting hurt in the immediate vicinity, so we did not have time to write

13 any kind of protest. That means that we reduced our activities to those

14 that were in our remit: The care for the security of the population.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Would the population not be best protected by

16 preventing the destruction to take place at all?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, at that

18 point in time the only possible thing was to do exactly what we did: To

19 inform the citizens. All other activities would not have yielded any

20 results.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then specifically ask you: If you would have

22 gone there and would have told anyone that was about to place explosives

23 that it may be a crime to intentionally destroy a religious monument, why

24 do you think that would have had no effect?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time, we didn't

Page 27684

1 have access to that building, and we didn't specifically know which

2 persons were going to commit that act.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now you can go all around the mosque and tell

4 everyone what's going to happen in two or three hours, and you say,

5 "Well, we couldn't look as who was preparing the explosives at the

6 mosque." Is that what you are telling us?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we did not have access to the

8 building. We had information that the explosion would happen, so we

9 wanted to inform and remove the population from the area to make sure

10 that they would leave and that they would be safe.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Why didn't you access to the building? Just open

12 the door and when it's locked, then force your way into it, isn't it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not consider that option in

14 view of the fact that we were not part of those activities. We just

15 acted pursuant to the information, and we acted within our powers to

16 protect the inhabitants as much as we could.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And your powers did not include preventive action in

18 order to avoid that crimes are committed?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that did include preventative

20 action in any case. Police work also includes preventative actions, of

21 course.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I do not understand that it was not

23 within the remit of your powers.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right at the beginning, we were

25 clarifying things in order to prevent conflict of authority among the

Page 27685

1 institutions. We assumed that this was something that was being done by

2 members of the engineers unit. Then us interfering in that action would

3 constitute a conflict of authority and powers.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It being done by members of the engineers unit,

5 would that make it any less a crime?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it would not make it less

7 of a crime, but the institutions functioned each in its own area of

8 responsibility and authority.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So you'd say if a clear announcement is made that

10 the army intends to commit any act which, at face value, would be a

11 serious crime, you would just say stay out of the way because a crime

12 will be committed? That's your position.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, I'm talking about a

14 conflict of powers here. There's the institution of the army, the

15 institution of the Ministry of the Interior. Any interference in the

16 authority of the other --

17 JUDGE ORIE: You've told us that before. I would invite to you

18 answer my question, that was that if the army makes an announcement that

19 within a civilian area they are about to commit what at face value seems

20 to be a serious crime, that the only thing you do is to say to the

21 population stay out, stay away, I have no access to the mosque, although

22 you can open the door. But that's your position, that that's the

23 appropriate thing to do at that point in time. Is that how we have to

24 understand your testimony?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At that point in time, from

Page 27686

1 the point of view of the Ministry of Interior, all we could do was inform

2 the population that they should get out of the way. We were able only to

3 work on the aspect of the safety of the population.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If -- if the army would have announced that they

5 would kill three civilians on the market-place, would you also have gone

6 there and say to all the public, "Stay away, because you might be hit by

7 a bullet when the army is executing three civilians"? Would you have

8 done the same?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are hypothetical questions,

10 and we could continue with that endlessly, but what we're talking about

11 here is that it was our task and the only option to do what we did. Had

12 we had the information before, a day or two before, I probably would have

13 informed along the professional line the minister about it, and so on.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15 MR. TRALDI:

16 Q. Sir --

17 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I'm looking at the clock.

18 Perhaps I should invite you not to proceed.

19 MR. TRALDI: I'm in the Chamber's hands, of course.

20 JUDGE ORIE: How many -- where are we as time is concerned?

21 MR. TRALDI: I'd estimate about half a session, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Half a session. Then we'll take a break first.

23 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes. We'd like to see you

24 back after that break, and you may now follow the usher.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 27687

1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take a break, and we'll resume at ten minutes

2 to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: While waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

6 courtroom. There was one preliminary item about a translation, I think.

7 Perhaps so short that we could deal with that.

8 MR. TRALDI: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution advises that it

9 has received the B/C/S translation for -- sorry, for MFI P6713,

10 65 ter 31192, which was marked for identification through Witness Indjic

11 on the 3rd of September 2014 at transcript page 25179. The translation

12 has been uploaded into e-court under doc ID R0116819RED B/C/S. If the

13 Defence are in agreement the Prosecution requests or will request that

14 the Court Officer be instructed to attach the translation and that the

15 document be admitted.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could I hear from the Defence. My recollection

17 doesn't tell me right away whether it was only the translation that

18 caused the document to be MFI'd.

19 My colleagues confirm that that was the only reason.

20 Mr. Stojanovic.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If that's the only reason, then the Registrar is

23 hereby instructed to attach doc ID R0116819RED B/C/S to document P6713,

24 MFI'd. Once it has been attached, P6713 is admitted into evidence under

25 seal.

Page 27688

1 MR. TRALDI: And, Your Honour, since we have mother moment, we've

2 been informed that at transcript page 27642, line 14, on Thursday,

3 65 ter 31516 is recorded as having been admitted as Exhibit P6873 when,

4 in fact, it has been admitted as Exhibit P6872. So for the clarity of

5 the record.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. 27642, line 14. Yes,

7 Madam Registrar, could you please verify whether the transcript is

8 accurate. We are talking about 65 ter 31516, I think.

9 [The witness takes the stand]

10 JUDGE ORIE: And whether it, indeed, is admitted as exhibit

11 number P6872.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honours. 65 ter 31516 should have

13 been assigned number P6873 which is assigned so in e-court for that

14 document.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ... first of all, we switch off all

16 unnecessary microphones. I think what Mr. Traldi was hinting at is that

17 it should have been admitted as P8 -- 6872 and that the transcript reads

18 that it was P6873 which is inaccurate, if I understand you well,

19 Mr. Traldi.

20 MR. TRALDI: That's correct and that's the information we, and I

21 think also the Chamber, have received from the Registry.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then this will be verified.

23 Madam Registrar, if Mr. Traldi made a mistake, then you'll

24 certainly draw the attention of the Chamber to that fact. If not,

25 65 ter 31516 is recorded now as being admitted as P6872.

Page 27689

1 Witness, our apologies for dealing with administrative matters

2 when you entered the courtroom. Mr. Traldi will now continue his

3 cross-examination.

4 Mr. Traldi.

5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Sir, a number of Muslims who were arrested in late May and early

7 June 1992 - Muslim civilians - were brought to the Vlasenica police

8 station; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you were aware at the time that some of the civilians who'd

11 been brought there were beaten; correct?

12 A. Well, look. There's a reference to beatings, mistreatments. I

13 heard about that only later through the electronic media, through

14 different witness statements. However, from the 2nd of May, 1992, the

15 police station really tried to work and to act in accordance with the

16 Law on Criminal Procedure. From the 21st of April until mid-May, say,

17 the 20th of May, it was --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, Witness, I'll stop you there. The

19 question was about your awareness of some of the civilians being taken to

20 the Vlasenica police station, that they were beaten.

21 Were you aware at the time? I take it from your answer that you

22 only learned about it later.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That answers the question.

25 If Mr. Traldi has any further questions on the matter, he'll

Page 27690

1 certainly put them to you.

2 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31509, page 245.

3 Q. Sir, this will be another portion of one of your suspect

4 interviews.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Could counsel repeat the page number again.

6 MR. TRALDI: Sorry, page 245.

7 Q. Now, you're being asked about civilians brought to the SJB here.

8 And at the top of the page, beginning at line 3, you're asked:

9 "All right. Were you aware of any mistreatment of these Bosniak

10 civilians when they were brought in for interrogation?"

11 You replied:

12 "See, I personally did not see that someone was being harassed.

13 But if I happened to hear from someone that someone was harassed, I

14 insisted that this should not have -- should not be happening. And I

15 requested from the duty policeman at the entrance to make a record of any

16 person coming in and to write a short -- a short description and also to

17 make a record when the person was -- when the person left the premises

18 or ... for this reason, of the possibility of misuse by the responsible

19 individuals. So this functioned in such a way."

20 Then you were asked:

21 "Okay. When you say 'harassed,' were you also aware that on --

22 at least on some occasions the civilians who were brought in were also

23 beaten?"

24 And you answered:

25 "See, I heard about this and I took measures right away."

Page 27691

1 Now, that's the truth what you said in your suspect interview,

2 that you did hear at the time that civilians were being beaten in the

3 Vlasenica police station; right?

4 A. Yes. But I intervened immediately in order to have this

5 situation overcome because, in fact, proper authority was established in

6 the station only the second half of May 1992. Basically until then,

7 various paragroups would barge in and it's possible that such incidents

8 occurred.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could I take you back to one of your

10 previous answers. When you were asked about your awareness of people

11 being beaten when brought in, you said:

12 "Well, look. There's a reference to beatings, mistreatments,"

13 and "I heard about that only later through the electronic media, through

14 various witness statements ..."

15 That wasn't true. You learned about it right away and it was not

16 a truthful answer.

17 Do you have any explanation as why you told us that you only

18 learned it through the electronic media, whereas you now tell us five

19 minutes later that you were aware of it and that you immediately took

20 action?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, people were saying

22 that there were certain incidents and I did not see any of that.

23 However, I acted by way of prevention and took measures with a view to

24 prevent such situations from happening. Later on in the electronic media

25 as I followed statements made by different witness, I came to realise

Page 27692

1 that, indeed, such things had happened.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The question that was put to you was just about

3 awareness. Now you were told -- you were told at the time that this

4 happened, and even in one of your answers today, you said if it was

5 reported to you then you took action.

6 Let me just remind you that at least that answer, that you

7 learned about it only later, is certainly not the whole truth as you were

8 asked to tell us. Could you please keep that in mind not to seek evasive

9 answers but to directly answer the question what is -- that is put to

10 you.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

12 MR. TRALDI:

13 Q. In terms of the actions you took, you informed your superiors at

14 the CSB of what you'd heard; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the policemen that were suspected to have participated were

17 sent to the VRS; right?

18 A. Yes. Measures were taken, those that were in envisaged under the

19 law at the time, and this was based on the agreement already reached

20 between the Main Staff of the VRS and the Ministry of Interior towards

21 the end of July 1992 --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come

23 closer to the microphone, says the interpreter.

24 MR. TRALDI:

25 Q. Sorry, sir, you're being asked to move towards the microphone so

Page 27693

1 the interpreters can hear you more clearly.

2 Now you said this was based on an agreement in late July 1992.

3 Is it your evidence that measures, the transfer of these policemen to the

4 VRS that were suspected of having beaten people at the SJB, were taken

5 after that agreement was in place?

6 A. Even before that, many measures were taken. That is to say,

7 policemen from the reserve force were dismissed, those who acted against

8 the law if I can put it that way. But at any rate, this agreement was

9 reached between the Main Staff of Republika Srpska and the MUP that all

10 paramilitaries be disbanded, handed over to the VRS, and expelled from

11 the areas where they were operating.

12 Q. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I again take you back to one of your

14 previous answers.

15 When I asked you about the answer you'd given previously, you

16 said, explaining your previous answer, you said:

17 "At that moment, people were saying that were certain incidents

18 and I did not see any of that. However, I acted by way of prevention and

19 took measures with a view to prevent such situations from happening."

20 Later on in the electronic media you said you came to realise

21 that indeed such things had happened.

22 From the answers you just gave, it appears that you knew already

23 at the time that such things were happening and that you did not only act

24 in way of prevention but that you also acted in a different way, acting

25 upon reports, taking measures perhaps to prevent such situations from

Page 27694

1 happening again but not prevent such things from happening only later

2 finding out that they had happened.

3 I again have to warn that you should speak the whole truth. Is

4 that clear to you?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear. And I am telling the

6 truth. That is to say, at that moment --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I just asked you whether that's clear to

8 you and you said it was.

9 Mr. Traldi.

10 MR. TRALDI:

11 Q. One of the reserve policeman at the Vlasenica SJB at the time,

12 Predrag Bastah, has been convicted after the war in Bosnia of crimes

13 against humanity for abusing prisoners at the SJB in late May and

14 beginning of June 1992; right?

15 JUDGE MOLOTO: What's the name of the policeman again?

16 MR. TRALDI: Bastah, B-a-s-t-a-h.

17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 MR. TRALDI:

20 Q. Sir, I'm now going to ask you about the take-over of Zaklopaca on

21 16 May 1992. Zaklopaca was in the municipality of Milici at the time;

22 right?

23 A. Yes, in that newly established municipality.

24 Q. You heard the next day that 60 to 80 civilians were killed during

25 the take-over; right?

Page 27695

1 A. Yes, the next day I heard that an incident had taken place there

2 in Zaklopaca.

3 Q. And you heard that 60 to 80 Muslim civilians were killed; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now this was a crime; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And this incident encouraged Muslims to leave the area of

8 Vlasenica and Milici, didn't it?

9 A. Yes. That's when the intensity of moving out was on the rise.

10 Q. Now when you explain in your statement why Muslims left Vlasenica

11 municipality, you don't mention that they started to leave in greater

12 numbers after other -- sorry, after other Muslim civilians were

13 massacred. You don't mention that in your statement, do you?

14 A. That's right. I did not deal with that problem because it was

15 within the scope of work of the Milici municipality; that is to say, a

16 different socio-political community.

17 Q. And because it was within the scope of work of Milici

18 municipality, it would have been their SJB, not yours, that was

19 responsible for investigating a crime; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. To your knowledge, no one was ever prosecuted or punished for

22 that crime, were they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Just for the clarity of the record, that's yes, no one was

25 punished; correct?

Page 27696

1 A. Now whether they did carry out investigations, I don't know. But

2 I know what the epilogue is: No one was punished.

3 Q. I want to ask you now about a mass murder outside of Nova Kasaba

4 in May 1992. About 25 Muslims were killed there; right?

5 A. Yes, I found out about that later too.

6 Q. When you say "later," this was on television within a day or two

7 it happening; right?

8 A. Yes, precisely.

9 Q. And the victims were being taken out of Bratunac by bus escorted

10 by the Bratunac police?

11 A. Yes. As far as I know, yes.

12 Q. They were killed by paramilitaries from a group called the

13 Vukovar Detachment; right?

14 A. Also on the basis of certain knowledge, yes.

15 Q. Now, you never saw a report or a bulletin about this crime, did

16 you?

17 A. I did not.

18 Q. And to your knowledge, this crime hasn't been prosecuted either,

19 has it?

20 A. As far as I know. But again, I'm saying that that was under the

21 Milici police station. Now whether they took certain measures, I don't

22 know.

23 Q. There were a number of take-overs of Muslim villages in Vlasenica

24 in late May 1992; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 27697

1 Q. The -- a battalion of the VRS Birac Brigade took part; right?

2 A. Well, there are two periods. In this first period until sometime

3 in June while the JNA was there, in the villages that were being

4 disarmed, the newly established Territorial Defence took part as well as

5 the units of the JNA. Later on when the Army of Republika Srpska was

6 established, there were certain activities in accordance with the plan of

7 the Army of Republika Srpska.

8 Q. You just said June -- or the JNA was there till June. You

9 testified earlier today that the Novi Sad Corps left on May 19th and its

10 equipment and personnel that stayed became part of the VRS Birac Brigade.

11 That's the truth; right?

12 A. That's right, that's right.

13 Q. Now the way these operations would work would be that people

14 would be called with megaphones to come to a certain spot in the village

15 to surrender their weapons; right?

16 A. Yes. That is to say, when we are speaking about the Territorial

17 Defence and the JNA, yes.

18 Q. And also the VRS; right? After May 19th.

19 A. Yes. Then the Territorial Defence was abolished and the Army of

20 Republika Srpska was established.

21 Q. Now, police officers from SJB Vlasenica would make a list of the

22 weapons that had been surrendered and take them away; right?

23 A. Yes, that was the task of the police. Since the police keep

24 records of weapons, then these collected weapons were supposed to be

25 recorded and stored in a certain storage area in the public security

Page 27698

1 station.

2 Q. To ensure the police were there, the army would inform your SJB

3 by fax the day beforehand; right?

4 A. Yes, that's this period until the 19th of May.

5 Q. And during the operation, the army would call the police by radio

6 to come take the weapons; right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You said you were notified by fax until the 19th of May. How

9 were you notified when it was the VRS conducting the operations?

10 A. Later when the VRS was established, institutions were established

11 of the VRS and the Ministry of Interior. Then on the basis of requests

12 and when necessary, the VRS would send a request to us stating that they

13 needed certain forces, some policemen. My task was to ask the

14 Ministry of Interior, the chief of the centre, for approval and to send

15 these policemen who would then be placed under the command of the

16 military unit in charge in the place where they would be stationed.

17 Q. You say placed under the command. The technical term for that is

18 resubordinated; right?

19 A. Precisely.

20 Q. Sir, I want to discuss one such take-over in particular, the

21 take-over of Drum. That was at the very beginning of June 1992; right?

22 I see you've nodded but you have to articulate your answer for the

23 record.

24 A. Yes. As for the village of Piskavica Drum and the take-over

25 there, there was this operation carried out on 29th of April that was

Page 27707

1 the exchanges were carried out later.

2 Q. Now, you say at first that you didn't consider it a camp because

3 it had its humanitarian nature as well for a certain period. And then

4 you say that you did not agree about the existence of a camp in the

5 Vlasenica area. So you'd agree, wouldn't you, that even if wasn't a camp

6 at first, it certainly became one?

7 A. Yes. Later pursuant to a specific order it became defined as a

8 camp.

9 Q. That's the order you discuss in your statement from

10 Svetozar Andric on the 31st of May, 1992; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I'll need about another ten minutes

13 with the Chamber's indulgence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I just asked for the time report, Mr. Traldi. You

15 apparently read my mind. I'll first wait for the result.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. TRALDI:

18 Q. Now, the warden there, Veljko Basic, was a retired police officer

19 who was mobilised into the TO; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the Susica facility, which had been a TO facility, came under

22 the control of the Birac Brigade when the VRS was formed; right?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. TRALDI: Can the Prosecution please have Exhibit P193.

25 Q. Now, this is an assessment of the guards service, and it's dated

Page 27708

1 June 1992.

2 MR. TRALDI: If could we have page 3 in both languages.

3 Q. This is an assessment of the danger to buildings in Susica from

4 attack on them. Do you agree we're discussing the same buildings, the

5 same Susica facility you describe in your statement?

6 A. Yes. The analysis is a result of the order that we mentioned.

7 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 4, the third paragraph from

8 the bottom.

9 Q. We see a note about the impossibility of any disinformation or

10 cover-up measures, and it mentions the number and structure of prisoners.

11 It's referring to them as prisoners because by this time clearly it was a

12 camp; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Turning to page 9 in the English and 8 in the B/C/S,

15 Major Slobodan Pajic is issuing a directive on the work of guards

16 support. Directing your attention to point 9, he writes:

17 "Regarding any unclear matters, contact the prison warden, chief

18 of the Vlasenica SJB, and the 4th Battalion Vlasenica Command."

19 Were you contacted by the guards at Susica camp about any unclear

20 matters?

21 A. This is here because in the event of an attack or any problems in

22 the building, in the camp, all these institutions would have to be

23 informed because they are the ones that could provide help and

24 protection. So the guards were not obliged to report to or inform the

25 public security station.

Page 27709

1 Q. Setting aside their obligations, you did hear in 1992 about

2 beatings and killings at Susica; right?

3 A. I did find out that there were some incidents and such

4 situations.

5 Q. You reported those to CSB Chief Cvijetic; right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now you didn't investigate them because you believed them to be

8 in the jurisdiction of the army; correct?

9 A. Yes, precisely.

10 Q. But you did inform the VRS of these incidents; right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, turning to the departure of Muslims from Vlasenica, I'll

13 just have one brief question.

14 By the time the mosque was destroyed in August 1992, almost all

15 the Muslims were gone from Vlasenica; right?

16 A. For the most part, yes.

17 Q. And you mention in your statement the municipality issuing

18 documents on the -- on certificates for leaving the municipality. The

19 reason Serbs had to get such a paper was to prevent them from avoiding

20 military service; right?

21 A. Correct. They had to have a certificate from the Secretariat for

22 National Defence.

23 Q. As Muslims left the municipality, other Serbs moved in; right?

24 A. Yes. The intensity with which the flow of Serbs arriving from

25 other locations varied, but by that time, there was already a

Page 27710

1 considerable number of refugees there from other areas.

2 Q. And a body in the municipality assigned them to abandoned houses

3 and flats; right?

4 A. Yes. A decision was reached - I don't know what the document was

5 called - a commission was formed, which was now temporarily assigning

6 abandoned apartments and houses.

7 Q. Finally, sir, on the 22nd of October, 2002, you stopped working

8 in the police because you were not certified by the International Police

9 Task Force, or IPTF; right?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. And this was because based on a review of your war time record

12 and the information available to them, they had information suggesting

13 that you'd sent persons detained at the Vlasenica police station to the

14 Susica camp; right?

15 A. That is what was said in the reasons, statement of reasons, but I

16 did not have the opportunity to prove otherwise, and -- or to disprove

17 it, so that this sanction is still in force to this day.

18 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

19 witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi. Just managed to get -- to

21 stay within the two and a half hour's estimate.

22 We'll take a break first before -- Mr. Stojanovic, before you'll

23 re-examine the witness if at least there's any need to re-examine the

24 witness. Is there?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that I

Page 27711

1 will require about ten minutes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take those ten minutes after the break.

3 And your next witness is stand by?

4 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, he is.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break.

6 Witness, you may follow the usher. We'd like to see you back in

7 20 minutes.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at quarter past 12.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

13 courtroom.

14 Meanwhile, Mr. Lukic, the Chamber has been informed about some

15 problems you have with the uploading into e-court of some of the

16 documents in relation to the next witness.

17 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I can't say that we're very happy with it but let's

19 work on the basis of hard copies exceptionally and then later on the

20 documents will be uploaded into e-court. I do understand that the booths

21 have received hard copies of everything you want to use and that hard

22 copies are available for the Judges as well.

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Under those circumstances, let's not make too much

25 fuss about it, but --

Page 27712

1 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I can inform you that we did our part.

2 So the Tribunal staff was not able to upload it into the system.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I then -- we know what the time-limits are and

4 that might have come a bit late. But, again, let's try to avoid it to

5 happen again, but let's work on the basis of what we have.

6 [The witness takes the stand]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, are you ready to re-examine the

8 witness?

9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours, one more

10 time.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. Good day.

13 A. Good day.

14 Q. I have just a few questions that I would like to put to you. In

15 the cross-examination you talked about how on the 19th of April 1992,

16 immediate danger of war was declared in the Vlasenica municipality.

17 What I want to ask you is this: Could you please tell us who

18 made the decision to declare the immediate danger of war?

19 A. This decision was made by the Crisis Staff on the basis of their

20 assessment of the crisis situation. Already in that time the

21 institution's either executive power or judicial ones did not operate.

22 The situation was more difficult and the interethnic relations were not

23 good.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his last

25 sentence.

Page 27713

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. If I can just ask you to repeat the last sentence because it was

3 not recorded in the transcript.

4 A. Interethnic safety, security was disrupted, interethnic

5 relations. And the institutions did not function, the judiciary and the

6 executive bodies were not functioning.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the only question you asked the

8 witness is who took that decision. Paragraph 17 of the statement reads:

9 "The decision on declaring immediate threat of war was made by

10 the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Vlasenica."

11 Why ask the witness what is already in his statement you have

12 tendered yourself into evidence? Try to be focused.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. That was just

14 a queue for what the witness had already spoken about.

15 Could we now please have P6874 in e-court. P6864 in e-court.

16 Q. Please take a look at this document. It's in front of you,

17 Mr. Witness. I shall put a question to you related to this document.

18 A. There's no document.

19 Q. In paragraph II of this decision on imminent threat of war, there

20 is a reference inter alia to these reasons that you had referred to, but

21 also there is a reference to a large number of armed citizens.

22 My question: Is that your knowledge, namely, that in April 1992

23 in the area of the municipality of Vlasenica there were many armed

24 citizens?

25 A. Yes. There was a large number of armed citizens because weapons

Page 27714

1 were procured in different ways.

2 Q. Thank you. When you spoke about the decision on disarmament of

3 the members of the public security station in Vlasenica, active and

4 reserve, did you receive at any point in time, in writing or orally, any

5 kind of instructions on disarming a group of policemen as opposed to some

6 other group on the basis of their ethnicity?

7 A. On the basis of documents that I found at the public security

8 station when I took over my duties, I did not come across such a

9 document.

10 Q. Thank you. As for the questions that were put to you today

11 during the cross-examination by the Prosecution, you mentioned military

12 operations or military actions. What do you specifically mean when you

13 say "military operation"?

14 A. As for military operations, at that time they were called

15 military actions, these are activities of the Army of Republika Srpska in

16 the areas that were in jeopardy or, rather, areas that were within their

17 plans.

18 Q. In these military actions, could it happen that some volunteer

19 units could take part in the beginning of the war or paramilitary units

20 and during the war police units as well?

21 A. Yes. It would always happen up until the period when these

22 paramilitary units were expelled. How do we put this? Planned military

23 actions of the Army of Republika Srpska, co-ordinated with the police,

24 they would be followed by certain paramilitary groups that committed

25 crimes and that were out of control.

Page 27715

1 Q. In the area of the village of Drum, before these military

2 activities, were there any incidents in terms of weapons being used,

3 gun-fire being opened, lack of control in the territory of that village?

4 A. The village of Drum is a village that is directly by the

5 outskirts of the municipality of Vlasenica. In the previous period there

6 was a staff there that had been established by the former chief of the

7 Territorial Defence, Ferid Hodzic. He organised groups. Now, was it the

8 Patriotic League or the Green Berets? And they had this location there,

9 a check-point, and they often taunted the citizens of Vlasenica and

10 opened fire at them.

11 Q. The question is how you learned about that.

12 A. Police patrols. We had learned that a group had been established

13 there, headed by Ferid Hodzic who later on went to Cerska; that is to

14 say, he became an official commander. In that period from that

15 check-point that they used to check the Serb population, the village of

16 Svetoke [phoen] is on the other side of Drum, very often in the evening

17 they would use tracer bullets and fire at Vlasenica.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you a bit more precise on what

19 was learned when exactly and -- because you're -- apparently are linking

20 this to the Drum incident and therefore we need to know exactly how your

21 questions link to what the Prosecution asked about.

22 So could you please find detailed information on the matter

23 rather than general information on the presence of groups.

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. So, Witness, this information that you spoke of a moment ago,

Page 27716

1 could you please tell the Trial Chamber when were these incidents

2 recorded and when did all this happen?

3 A. These incidents, these provocations against Vlasenica, coming

4 from Drum, they date back to the period even before the 21st of April.

5 Q. Were weapons used from the village of Drum towards the town of

6 Vlasenica after April and up until June 1992?

7 A. Yes. That is to say, very often there were provocations,

8 especially at night-time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us one example, some detail, about

10 one specific provocation, what kind of provocation, what type of weaponry

11 was used, what was done about it, whether there were any victims.

12 Could you give us one example and to elaborate on that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part this happened at

14 night-time. And I've already said that the village of Drum is close to

15 Vlasenica. There were provocations in --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness -- Witness, you're doing now the same as you

17 did before: There were provocations.

18 Give us one clear example where, at what time, what happened,

19 what then was the response, what's the base -- the source of your

20 knowledge? One specific example, please.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right now, I cannot refer to a

22 specific date, but I know that it was repeated night after night, every

23 night.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 27717

1 Q. According to the information that you received, until when did

2 this check-point exist? The one that made it impossible for the

3 population to pass through the village of Drum.

4 A. On the basis of the security assessment of the

5 then-Territorial Defence of Vlasenica, newly established, there was this

6 activity that was carried out together with the JNA on the 29th of April.

7 Then this check-point was neutralised.

8 Q. I shall end with the following question: At any point in time,

9 did you receive information as to who called the police - and from

10 where - to speak about the activities of the -- concerning the

11 destruction of the mosque in Vlasenica, if you know that?

12 A. I cannot recall where this information came from. Was it from

13 the command of the battalion or something similar to that, I cannot

14 recall exactly.

15 Q. Mr. Djuric, thank you on behalf of the Defence. We have no

16 further questions for you.

17 A. Thank you, too.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

19 Mr. Traldi, any further questions for the witness?

20 MR. TRALDI: No, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djuric, since the Chamber also has no further

22 questions for you, this concludes your evidence in this court. I'd like

23 to thank you very much for coming to The Hague. It's a long journey.

24 And I'd also like to thank you for having answered all the questions that

25 were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I would wish you a

Page 27718

1 safe return home again.

2 You may follow the usher.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ORIE: The next witness may be escorted into the courtroom.

6 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I actually have a preliminary before he

7 is brought in.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You have a preliminary. Then please raise it right

9 away, Mr. Weber.

10 MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

11 On Saturday 1 November 2014, the Prosecution received an 18-page

12 proofing note for the next witness. In this proofing note the

13 Prosecution was informed that the Defence was redacting the entirety of

14 18 paragraphs and parts of nine other parts following the Prosecution's

15 objections to the lack of foundation for the witness's knowledge of

16 certain information in and absence of relevance.

17 The Prosecution would like to put on the record that it maintains

18 its position with respect to the remaining paragraphs as communicated in

19 its response of 14 October 2014.

20 The Prosecution further notes that the proofing note is

21 essentially a new statement that goes beyond the matters opposed by the

22 Prosecution. We would oppose the use or admission of the proofing note

23 during the testimony of this witness. However, we do understand that the

24 Defence may wish to lead additional evidence based on our previous

25 objections to further establish the basis of knowledge for the witness's

Page 27719

1 factual knowledge of the remaining paragraphs if relevant and not

2 consisting of the witness's opinions. Because of this, we would not

3 oppose this being done viva voce. However, we would be -- oppose it in

4 the form of a proofing note which does now go into other matters, so like

5 what the President of Argentina did and so forth.

6 We would also note that the proofing note discloses information

7 to the Prosecution based on the statement of another, and we also at this

8 time have a significant inability related to this information which

9 supposedly comes from another individual in another individual's

10 statement. During the first recess today, the Defence did give us a copy

11 of this other person's statement which is 56 pages long and not

12 translated. This is rather difficult for us to -- to digest with such

13 late notice.

14 So I just want to put those matters on the record. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: They are hereby on the record.

16 Mr. Lukic, I must say that when I read in your new text lines

17 like "from the media it become common knowledge that this and this

18 happened," that, of course, is replacing one sweeping statement by

19 another one and, of course, source of knowledge means that we have

20 something more than what people read in newspapers. But again, it's

21 maybe too much to -- to deal with right away. Let's see how your

22 examination of the witness develops. And whenever decisions on whether

23 or not to admit the old statement or the information report are still

24 pending -- let's see how it develops, but I can't say that I have no

25 understanding for the concerns expressed by the Prosecution. And that's

Page 27720

1 true for the whole of the Chamber.

2 MR. TRALDI: Mr. President, just if that ends the matter I'd just

3 request to be excused if it's a convenient time.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the usher is already at the door-step to escort

5 you out, Mr. Traldi. And perhaps if he could then escort the witness

6 into the courtroom at the same time, it would be appreciated.

7 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski, I suppose.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

12 make a solemn declaration. The text is handed out to. May I invite you

13 to make that solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: NEDJO VLASKI

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

19 Mr. Vlaski, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find

20 him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

21 Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. But with your leave I would

23 just shortly respond to the objections just heard from the Prosecution.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not in the presence of the witness.

25 MR. LUKIC: He does not speak English. If you want, he can

Page 27721

1 remove his headphones.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we would first have to establish that, that he

3 doesn't speak any English. In view of his education I thought perhaps he

4 might.

5 But could we -- I think the Chamber is quite willing to hear, but

6 I also said that after Mr. Weber expressed some concerns that the Chamber

7 would see how it develops.

8 Is there any way that we could start with the examination of the

9 witness now and that you would further respond after that.

10 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, I have to know how to proceed, whether

11 to go into details or just to offer the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: There one simple basic rule, Mr. Lukic, and that is,

13 ask for facts known to the witness. That's the reason why I gave this

14 short quote, to ask a witness what happened. So clear source of

15 knowledge, clear facts. That's what assists the Chamber. Is that clear

16 enough guidance for you?

17 MR. LUKIC: I think, Your Honour, that it will be -- become

18 clear. I'm trying to find it in this proofing note as well what kind of

19 source of information this gentleman used performing his duties, so I

20 don't want to jump ahead. But also I would like to tell and emphasise

21 that this 18-page --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. LUKIC: -- information report is probably more than half is

24 cut from the statement just for better understanding on which part of the

25 statement the comments are directed to when there is more comments on one

Page 27722

1 paragraph. So -- and we have -- I have with me six information reports

2 offered by the Prosecution into the evidence. I have their numbers here

3 if Your Honours want to hear them. This is -- this is not new in this

4 trial, that we introduce information reports as -- as an evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm -- I'm not against it. Perhaps --

6 MR. LUKIC: Yeah --

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you are not aware of the level of unsourced

8 knowledge and opinion evidence -- let's not forget this is a witness of

9 facts, and if I then read for these circumstances I can say that the fate

10 of Yugoslavia was decided by, that's opinion. Again, I said we'll give

11 you the benefit of waiting and see how it develops. And my guidance is

12 facts, clear source of knowledge, and then we'll see what happens.

13 MR. LUKIC: But if I may, Your Honour, only in that same

14 paragraph you would find that he was actually providing security for one

15 of those meetings he mentioned.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And does that mean that the fate of Yugoslavia

17 was decided by. I mean, as a security detail you can't know what

18 caused -- what was it that -- basis of the fate of Yugoslavia. These are

19 general sweeping statements again. And even if you're there as security

20 detail, that doesn't make an expert which could give these type of

21 opinions.

22 Again, you have the benefit of our doubt. I would say use it.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 27723

1 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Vlaski.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. For the record, could you please state your name and surname

5 slowly.

6 A. Nedjo Vlaski.

7 Q. Sorry, what is it that you have in front of you?

8 A. Just the statement that I signed.

9 Q. Could you please hand it over to the Prosecution so that they

10 could take look at it and see that there's nothing else there.

11 MR. LUKIC: Sorry, there is more in his hand, if you don't mind.

12 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, it appears to me to be a B/C/S copy of

13 the proposed redacted statement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whenever you want to consult it, you should

15 ask permission to do so. So you can have it nearby but if you put it --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can manage without the statement.

17 There's no problem.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's available. If you need to consult, just

19 tell us and explain why and then we'll decide on it.

20 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Can we have on our screens 1D1768A.

23 Actually, probably we have a problem with the system this

24 morning. That's the hard copy we distributed to everybody in and around

25 courtroom. So we'll probably have to continue with hard copy of this

Page 27724

1 statement, Your Honours, so then the witness should have his hard copy

2 with him at the same time.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, the redacted version was already

4 filed, so it must be in the system. We received it morning as a filing.

5 MR. LUKIC: I -- I was told that it's not in the system, so if it

6 is, I would be happy to have it on our screens.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assist in any way?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I do not have the document in

9 e-court. However, I can try and see if can I find the filing that

10 Judge Fluegge --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it was attached to the filing. To that extent

12 it should be somewhere in the system. If it's possible to show it on the

13 screen, that would be appreciated.

14 THE REGISTRAR: I will do my best, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 For the time being, the witness can consult his version of the --

17 of his statement because I take it that you want the attestation --

18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: -- to be made.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please take a copy of the

22 statement which was returned to you.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Could you please take your statement and I'm going to put

25 questions to you that are based on the statement.

Page 27725

1 Did you provide a statement to the Defence of General Mladic at a

2 certain point in time?

3 A. Yes, I did give them a statement.

4 Q. On the first page of the statement, do you see your signature?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Do you recognise the signature?

7 A. That is my signature.

8 Q. Could you please look at the last page of your statement. And do

9 you see a signature there?

10 A. Yes, I see a signature and the date of the signature.

11 Q. Whose signature is it and who put the date there?

12 A. Yes. This is my signature, and I wrote the date.

13 Q. Now we will look at the redacted statement. After it was

14 redacted, are the contents of the statement accurate and truthful,

15 according to your best recollection?

16 A. Yes, this is what I was able to confirm. At the time when I gave

17 the statement, everything was truthful and accurate and comported with

18 the facts as I recalled them.

19 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you

20 provide the same answers?

21 A. I would give the same answers to some questions, and I would

22 perhaps provide more detailed answers to some questions because I

23 acquired more detailed information on those questions since I provided

24 the original answers.

25 Q. Thank you. On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, did you speak with

Page 27726

1 me?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. What did we do on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

4 A. We trimmed the statement that I gave during preparation. We

5 redacted certain parts of the statement, and we provided certain

6 clarifications in terms of the exhibits or proof that we had at our

7 disposal.

8 Q. I'm going to put all these questions to you before I tender the

9 statement and the information report. What kind of sources for your

10 information did you used when you were carrying out your duties?

11 A. According to the rules of operation of our service, all available

12 sources --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

14 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, the basis of the Prosecution's

15 objections weren't necessarily what the generic general sources of

16 information were but they're specific facts in the statement, and what

17 we're looking for is what the witness's foundation is for those facts.

18 Not some broad description of what an intelligence service has at its

19 disposal. I just want to state that for the record.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that that is not your primary concern.

21 At the same time, the Chamber would like the witness to answer the

22 question, the generic question. Not to say that the problem has been

23 resolved by that but we'd nevertheless would like to hear the answer of

24 the witness.

25 Could you please continue your answer. You were stopped when you

Page 27727

1 said, "According to the rules of operation of our service, all available

2 sources ..." Could you continue from there because we interrupted you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All available, formal, legal

4 documents, public sources, all communications concerning persons of

5 security interest were permitted and were the subject of the work of our

6 service, including some specific methods and means the service uses, like

7 gathering information through operatives, associates, gathering

8 information through methods which perhaps violate secret private

9 communications over the telephone, through carrying out illegal searches,

10 following subjects, and all the other means that are at the disposal of a

11 service such as mine.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic. We've heard the answer of the

13 witness.

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to put on the record that, in the

16 meantime, Madam Registrar was able to put the document, the statement on

17 the record, we see it in front of us.

18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. It would hopefully help a

19 lot with today's trial.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We would offer, Your Honour,

22 both the statement and information report provided by this witness and

23 having in mind that information report is confidential since there are

24 some names mentioned this witness wants to protect, not to put them in

25 any kind of danger. We'd offer both of those documents into evidence.

Page 27728

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

2 MR. WEBER: The Prosecution does have objections I can rehash

3 them. I've made them a record already. If -- I leave it to counsel's

4 whether he wants to further remedy anything that we've made known as our

5 objections during the course of their objections -- course of our

6 objections. Otherwise, we're willing to have the material MFI'd at this

7 point in time with the -- it being very clear that we made our objections

8 known and counsel is having the opportunity to remedy them during their

9 examination if they so wish.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Both documents will be MFI'd.

11 Mr. Lukic, the report, the information report provisionally under

12 seal, the fact that the witness wants to protect certain names doesn't

13 mean that we are following that suggestion but for the time being it will

14 be under seal.

15 Madam Registrar, the numbers would be.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the redacted statement that has

17 65 ter number 1D1768A will receive exhibit number D735.

18 JUDGE ORIE: D735 is MFI'd.

19 THE REGISTRAR: And, Your Honours, the information report will

20 receive number D736. However, I'm not clear on the number it will

21 receive in e-court once it's uploaded.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Number D736 is reserved for the information

23 report which is confidential and once uploaded will be there.

24 Mr. Lukic, just for your information, you asked for more

25 guidance, and I said focus on facts and source of knowledge. I'll just

Page 27729

1 allude to one example of your information statement.

2 If I look at the comment to paragraph 43 of the statement, it

3 reads: "This paragraph is self-explanatory."

4 Yes? Now paragraph 43 is without any source of knowledge and

5 gives almost exclusively opinion evidence and hardly any facts. Keep

6 that in mind if you think that the matter has been resolved by your

7 information report. And it's just one example that I give to you. And

8 if you would read it, it's all opinion.

9 But I'll let you -- please proceed as you consider appropriate.

10 We'll later decide on admission of the statement. Also in view of how

11 your examination-in-chief has developed and has clarified issues.

12 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, in paragraph 8 of information report, we

13 said that all information this witness gathered and presented in his

14 statement is strictly work-related. So, in paragraph 43 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. LUKIC: -- he was part of that system and his job was to

17 follow such a developments. He told me, if you want, you can ask him

18 what he told me, actually, but it's obvious emanating from his work.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if you read what remains from

22 paragraph 43, "The legitimate interest and goals by the Serbian political

23 representatives," that's opinion. Isn't it? Whether it's legitimate or

24 not, what exactly their interest was is not explained.

25 MR. LUKIC: If you --

Page 27730

1 JUDGE ORIE: These calls were without effect.

2 MR. LUKIC: If you read the whole statement, you would find what

3 the Serbs were trying to protect: Their right to stay -- to have the

4 same status they had before.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Legitimate is an opinion, is a legal opinion,

6 Mr. Lukic. And if at the same time you say they were subjected to

7 various accusations and pressure, this was a case of tendentious

8 depictions of the political and security situation wherein only the

9 Serbian side was negatively portrayed, that's all opinion. If you are

10 not aware of that, Mr. Lukic, you have a problem during your

11 examination-in-chief, which you are now about to start.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will read a short

14 statement summary of this witness, and then I will have a few questions

15 for him.

16 [No interpretation]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Lukic provide the interpreters with a

18 copy of the summary, please.

19 MR. LUKIC: It's in B/C/S. I can provide it to the interpreters,

20 no problem, but I will need the help of the usher.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And if you only have the B/C/S version, would you

22 please slowly read it, Mr. Lukic.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] After completing his education, he

24 started his police career in the City Secretariat of the Interior, in

25 Sarajevo on public security tasks. After a year, he was transferred to

Page 27731

1 the State Security Service where he worked on all types of assignments,

2 ranging from desk officer for operations equipment, inspector for

3 security background checks, security of buildings and persons, inspector

4 on internal affairs matters, and as chief of the SDB administration for

5 security of persons and buildings. Mr. Vlaski began to work in 1975.

6 Nedjo Vlaski will testify about the work of his service. He will

7 testify about monitoring of all types of nationalism in the former

8 Yugoslavia, as well as about the monitoring of the group Young Muslims, a

9 group whose member was Alija Izetbegovic, as well as the monitoring of

10 the trial conducted against this group in 1983 when the group's members

11 were convicted to prison sentences on charges as a well-organised group

12 that wanted to topple the constitutional system of the country and create

13 an ethnically pure Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 He will talk about the surveillance of specific persons,

15 including Alija Izetbegovic, after he was released from prison. Also, he

16 will talk about the establishment of the Party of Democratic Action, the

17 core of which was formed by members of the Young Muslims group and

18 religious officials of the Islamic community of Bosnia. The witness will

19 also speak about the actions of Alija Izetbegovic unrelated to any

20 institutions and also about the influence of the Sura, the Islamic

21 advisory council, on the functioning of the Party for Democratic Action

22 and the actions of Alija Izetbegovic.

23 Mr. Vlaski will also speak about the anti-constitutional

24 activities of Muslim and Croat politicians of Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 following elections which were held in 1990 aimed at the breakup of

Page 27732

1 Yugoslavia.

2 So this was the gist of the description of the tasks that were

3 performed by Mr. Vlaski.

4 He will also testify about the wire-tapping of Serb cadres and

5 how it was conducted completely outside of the established system of

6 institutional checks and balances. The witness will also talk about how

7 Alija Izetbegovic managed to acquire almost complete control over all the

8 sectors of the police. Nedjo Vlaski will testify about the division in

9 the police of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the conflict broke out and

10 about the links of Muslim politicians with criminals in Sarajevo before

11 and after the conflict broke out. This intermingling of the Muslim

12 leadership in the police and criminals created a favourable ground for

13 the expulsion and killing of Serbs in Sarajevo. All of it began with the

14 unpunished killing of Nikola Gardovic who was in a wedding party in the

15 centre of Sarajevo whereby it was known who was the killer but the police

16 did not do anything about it. This continued with the killing of Serbian

17 policeman Pero Petrovic at the police station in Novo Sarajevo, who was

18 killed in front of his colleagues, Muslims, by the Green Berets. This

19 marked the open season on Serbs in Sarajevo.

20 The witness will also explain the manner in which Muslim police

21 officials armed Muslims and how they sent Muslim policemen for training

22 in Croatia.

23 That would be the summary for this witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic. You have any further

25 questions for the witness? Unless you would rather leave that until

Page 27733

1 after the break and then --

2 MR. LUKIC: I -- I can break now. It's a convenient time.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then how much time would you need after

4 the break?

5 MR. LUKIC: My plan was not to spend much time --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

7 MR. LUKIC: -- in leading this witness, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll -- and what do you mean by "not

9 much time"?

10 Mr. Weber.

11 MR. WEBER: I was deferring to your question, Your Honour.

12 MR. LUKIC: We have to hear two audio recordings, and I might,

13 during the break, find something from this informational report to go

14 through with the witness. So probably 15 minutes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine. We'll take a break.

16 We will -- yes, Mr. Weber.

17 MR. WEBER: I'm so sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to -- there

18 is a number of objections the Prosecution did have and some of them were

19 a foundational nature. I did communicate them to the Defence last week.

20 If during the break if Mr. Lukic has any further information about those

21 matters, dates, and when these documents were authored, things of that

22 nature, I'd appreciate it just before I begin cross.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the Chamber explained that it will

24 usually not insist on -- on always to redact unsourced parts or --

25 et cetera but of course that the parties should be aware that if there

Page 27734

1 are no sources given for the knowledge of the witness, then of course the

2 probative value, if any at all, may not be -- may not be at a level the

3 party presenting that evidence might expect or wish.

4 MR. WEBER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I may not have been clear.

5 I was talking about the associated documents. So --

6 JUDGE ORIE: I understood you.

7 MR. WEBER: Okay.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, I was briefly addressing Mr. Lukic

9 as well who said that he would need some 15 minutes.

10 We take a break and we will resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: But, yes, first the witness should be escorted out

13 of courtroom.

14 [The witness stands down]

15 JUDGE ORIE: We take the break.

16 --- Recess taken at 1.15 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 1.36 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber you're on your feet.

19 MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours.

20 I just was reviewing the transcript over the break and I just --

21 it appears to me that there's been no 92 ter foundation established for

22 D736 marked for identification, the information report. I just wanted to

23 put that on the record.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, could you take care of that. Ask the

25 witness to read the statement, not the information report which -- I

Page 27735

1 don't know whether it's also available in the B/C/S or not. Is it?

2 MR. LUKIC: I'll ask him. We -- I read him word by word the

3 whole information report. We went word by word.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. LUKIC: We spent the whole Sunday on that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's not the best basis for a --

7 MR. LUKIC: All the Prosecution statements are read back to the

8 witnesses before they sign it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: But they're always also available in a language that

10 witness can understand. Isn't it?

11 MR. LUKIC: Provided later. If you want me, I can provide later

12 to this with witness the same.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's -- we are now not talking about signatures

14 on the statements. We are talking about admission into evidence and an

15 attestation by the witness not before a signature but before admission

16 under Rule 92 ter. That's a different matter.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 MR. LUKIC: If I may, before the witness comes in --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

20 MR. LUKIC: And you can check it with the witness, if you wish

21 so. Actually, this English version is made from the Serbian version.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay but --

23 MR. LUKIC: Only not in this order and not this nicely put

24 everything together, but first recorded what the witness told me, then I

25 written this English version.

Page 27736

1 [The witness takes the stand]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's all done outside of court. We

3 cannot check in any way the accuracy of all that so, therefore,

4 Mr. Lukic -- and since the witness now also cannot read the English

5 version and since we most likely will not finish the testimony of the

6 witness today, you might find a solution overnight for that and then

7 present it tomorrow.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vlaski, again a question that has to do with

12 this report. How did you and I go through this report?

13 A. We went through it by analysing each and every paragraph in the

14 statement, and then on the basis of the facts that were set out in the

15 statement we provided a broader overview.

16 Q. Just a moment, please. Yesterday, on Sunday, how did we go

17 through this report that was written in English?

18 A. Well, we read the -- the statement and we looked at the evidence

19 that I had. That is to say, augmenting all of this through the evidence

20 that I had available to me.

21 Q. You said that you have some documents. Before you started

22 testifying, I came to see you during the break and I took three

23 documents. Do you have more documents in your possession?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, if we are still with the information

25 report, this doesn't help. What we need to receive that report or the

Page 27737

1 content of that report in evidence is either to elicit it viva voce,

2 which would take hours, or to have it translated --

3 MR. LUKIC: I will --

4 JUDGE ORIE: And to seek the attestation of the witness to that

5 additional information. That's what we need. And there's -- how you

6 produced it, et cetera, is -- well, may explain something but is not fit

7 as the basis for admission into evidence. That's the issue.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

10 MR. LUKIC: I will abide by your guidance.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Vlaski, for example, if your working hours are from say,

14 8.00 a.m. until 4.00 p.m., if you hear some information that is of

15 interest to your service, say, 10.00 or 11.00, or 3.00 in the morning,

16 can you disregard that information?

17 A. From an operative point of view, everything information that is

18 of security interest has to be taken into account because this mosaic

19 about somebody's activity is put together on the basis of this minute

20 information that is gathered during the work of operatives.

21 Q. During your work, was following the media a permissible source of

22 information?

23 A. In the rules of the security service, all the public sources of

24 information available were one of the methods of collecting information.

25 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you briefly --

Page 27738

1 MR. WEBER: Your Honours, just before we get too far afield.

2 There were changes in the rules of security service if I recall at

3 different points in time. If we could just have some precision just

4 about what time of work, what period the witness is referring to?

5 Because he might have had some different assignments at different times?

6 JUDGE ORIE: How relevant is that? Whatever sources the office

7 would gather, the issue is whether those sources of knowledge are

8 sufficient for us. That's the issue. I mean, of course, you can read

9 newspapers and whether you want to prepare reports on the basis of

10 newspapers is fine. But, of course, what this Chamber has to do is to

11 evaluate the evidence and to see what role newspapers - and I'm not

12 saying none - but what role newspapers can play in our job to establish

13 the facts. That's the issue rather than the issue you just touched upon.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

16 Q. [Interpretation] If you would receive some information through

17 the media, what was the procedure that would follow?

18 A. Well, all information that is of security significance is

19 compared to information that is obtained through other types of operative

20 work. It is used as a kind of guide-line.

21 Q. Mr. Weber, my colleague from the other side, put a question.

22 Could you be more specific in terms of when the media could be used as a

23 source of information? You worked in a certain period of time before the

24 war and then a different period of time after the war, and you were in

25 the same line of work. Did anything change? Was anything banned in the

Page 27739

1 meantime? Was anything done to disallow media?

2 A. Media are a very important source of information. They were used

3 in two different ways, in a two-sided manner, because the media are a way

4 in which both information and misinformation can be presented.

5 Q. Now let us go back to material sources. The documentation that

6 was available to the State Security Service in Sarajevo, where is it

7 today? Did it remain in Sarajevo or did you take it?

8 A. Well, there were several ways in which documentation was kept.

9 Older documents were kept at the Zlatiste facility as far as I know

10 because I was in charge of that facility when I was chief of the

11 department for providing security for persons and buildings. That is

12 where information from previous periods was stored. And then in

13 different safety boxes in the State Security Service offices, other

14 documents were stored. And then other documents, yet other documents

15 were kept in the analysis department of the security service.

16 Q. Let me just ask you something. Can you tell us what remained in

17 the hands of your service out of all of this, your service that remained

18 in the territory that was under Muslim forces control?

19 A. After military operations that ensued, some of these documents

20 were taken and part of the documents that were under the territory -- on

21 the territory of Republika Srpska authorities were kept there, whereas

22 the documents that were kept in facilities that were under the control of

23 the Muslim part of the area, that remained in their hands.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please

25 be asked to speak slowly. Thank you.

Page 27740

1 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to speak more slowly.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. And do pause before answering my question.

5 Documentation that your service had, was it destroyed; and if so,

6 did you take part in that?

7 A. According to the rules of service, in certain periods of time

8 documentation is destroyed. Just before the first multi-party elections

9 were held, if I can put it that way, we had this thankless task to

10 destroy part of the documentation there for political reasons and some

11 other reasons; namely, that certain methods of work of the service and

12 certain documentation in respect of certain individuals before the

13 multi-party elections could be destroyed so that it would not be the

14 subject of certain manipulations.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated]

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A vast amount of this documentation

17 was destroyed. I can say by way of illustration that I had three safes

18 in my office and lots of these materials that did not really have much

19 value and they were destroyed.

20 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. For example, documentation that has to do with monitoring

22 Young Muslims, where is that? What do you think? Do you think it's

23 still there?

24 A. I know that this part of the documentation was stored at the

25 department for documents. Unfortunately, part of this documentation -

Page 27741

1 that is to say, the part that is on microfilm - was taken away unlawfully

2 by the chief of the State Security Service, Branko Kvesic, as he left the

3 service and as he went from Sarajevo to Mostar to the area of

4 Herceg-Bosna. Specific documentation about the activities of this group,

5 the Young Muslims, was on those premises, and I had direct insight into

6 that documentation before the multi-party elections were held.

7 May I explain why I had this insight? I can continue, if you

8 wish.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to Mr. Lukic whether he puts questions to

10 you in this respect. And, again, Mr. Lukic, general statements do not

11 always help us very much. Rather, we'd like to know when the witness

12 says A or B, why he knew about A or B.

13 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation].

14 Q. You've heard what the Judge is interested in. Please tell us

15 when this happened, if you know, and explain what it is that you wish to

16 explain to us.

17 A. My superiors from the top of the security service, that is the

18 period before the multi-party elections were held, gave me the task of

19 looking into this documentation. On the basis of a cross-section that

20 was supposed to be made, the leadership of the service planned to take

21 certain measures of protection for operatives, inspectors, who did this

22 work because some revengism was to be expected from the newly established

23 authorities that, on the basis of our assessment, were supposed to come

24 precisely from those circles that had been the subject of our operations

25 beforehand.

Page 27742

1 Let me say by way of information that out of a few members of the

2 Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic was criminally prosecuted as well as

3 Fikret Abdic, Franjo Boras, and in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

4 Momcilo Krajisnik.

5 I did review the entire files and documents that referred to the

6 activities of The Young Muslims group who, headed by Alija Izetbegovic,

7 were convicted in the trial held in 1983, and based on my review of those

8 files, I had the opportunity to get to know numerous documents on that

9 topic that were in the file. I submitted a report so that the service

10 leadership could make a plan to protect the operatives, inspectors, who

11 took part in certain measures, searches, informative interviews,

12 investigations, or who were in any way would be possibly exposed as being

13 part of these activities.

14 I also know that a part of the documentation disappeared from the

15 department for documents. This particularly applies to the dossier of

16 Mr. Adil Zulfikarpasic who was a subject for many years of our work

17 because he took part in the actions of the democratic alternative that

18 was formed abroad for the purposes of working to change the system and

19 the organs of power in the SFRY.

20 Q. Could you please tell us exactly how you found out that the

21 dossier Zulfikarpasic disappeared?

22 A. This happened quite early on because Adil Zulfikarpasic when he

23 came to Yugoslavia tried to gain an access to that dossier through

24 certain connections in the country. However, there was some compromising

25 material from the dossier that was taken out of the file and passed on to

Page 27743

1 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

3 MR. WEBER: Your Honour, is there any way we could have some

4 context as to when this occurred?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Lukic, apart from context, could you

6 please put your questions in such a way that we do not get long stories

7 which are, for us, not easy to link to what seems to be the core of this

8 case and the core of the statement of the witness.

9 Please proceed.

10 MR. LUKIC: Thank you. I'm closing to the end.

11 Q. [Interpretation] Are you able to tell us when this happened?

12 A. The disappearance of the file happened in 1991.

13 Q. And what is the source of your knowledge and do you know who

14 actually participated in the taking away of this dossier?

15 A. I do have some information. I don't have any proof though, so I

16 do have operative information as is the practice in our part of the

17 world, so it was information gained from sources that, based on operative

18 knowledge, were able to access such information.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please not overlap and

20 repeat the last two or three exchanges for purposes of interpretation.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you're overlapping with Mr. Lukic.

22 You told us - and I invite you to resume from there - you told us

23 that it was information gained from sources that, based on operative

24 knowledge, were able to access such information.

25 And could you please repeat what you said after that, unless