Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27935

 1                           Thursday, 6 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 6             Good morning to everyone.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I would like to raise one practical matter.  We moved our usual

11     Wednesday session on the 12th of November to the 14th of November, making

12     the 12th of November a non-sitting day.  That was born out of necessity,

13     it was the scheduling of the Appeals Chamber and the Hadzic Chamber.  Now

14     it turns out that it's not necessary any further and the Chamber would

15     very much like to go back to Wednesday, the 12th, and not to sit on

16     Friday, the 14th.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And if the parties have great problems with that,

19     we'd like to hear from you; but otherwise, we would like to move back to

20     what is our ordinary weekly routine - that is, to sit Monday up to

21     Friday.

22             I see that Mr. Mladic would like to consult.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, you may continue your

24     examination-in-chief, but not until after I have reminded the witness.

25             You, Mr. Bojanovic, that you're still bound by the solemn

Page 27936

 1     declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony.

 2     And you announced that you would need another five minutes,

 3     Mr. Stojanovic.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           WITNESS:  SAVO BOJANOVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bojanovic.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at D747 in

11     e-court, please, paragraph 5.  D747, paragraph 5 of the statement.

12        Q.   Mr. Bojanovic, while we're waiting for the page to upload, let's

13     just say that you're saying there that military tribunals were formed

14     with the corps commands and that it was their responsibility to cover the

15     areas of responsibilities of the corps.  Please, tell the Trial Chamber

16     the military court that you worked for, the one in Bijeljina, what

17     territory did it cover?

18        A.   My court covered the area to the west, so that it partially

19     affected the area of responsibility of the 1st Krajina Corps --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note we are having

21     interference.  We cannot hear the witness properly.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There seems to be a --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  He might be coming too close to the microphone

24     so there are interruptions.  We cannot hear everything that he is saying.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please move slightly away from the

Page 27937

 1     microphone.  Let's try it again because the interpreters had some

 2     problems.  You started and what is recorded until now is that you said so

 3     that it partially affected the area of responsibility of the

 4     1st Krajina Corps.  Could you please resume from there.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Other than this area of

 6     responsibility, the court was responsible for the area of responsibility

 7     of the East Bosnia Corps and the Krajina Corps which was formed in

 8     September 1991.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 7 of your statement, which you have in

11     front of you, Mr. Bojanovic, you discuss the composition of the military

12     court and the prosecutor's office.  So I would like you to tell the

13     Trial Chamber whether this composition remained the same throughout the

14     war or did the personnel vary?

15        A.   The first composition was Mr. Mirko Vasiljevic, he was the

16     president, myself, and Jezdimir Spasovic [phoen].  We were the judges.

17     Then later after about half a year or so Ljubisa Kitic arrived.  And then

18     after him Damjan Kaurinovic joined us.  I left the court in September

19     1993, Jezdimir Spasovic left a year later.  We were replaced by Luka

20     Borovcanin, I think, and Dusko Bojic.  When we're talking about the

21     prosecutor's office responsible for the East Bosnia Corps, Predrag Ninic

22     was the prosecutor and Goran Blagojevic was the deputy.  In late 1992

23     Momir Radulovic became the deputy.  After I left from I think in 1994,

24     late 1994, Dusko Panic became the deputy military prosecutor.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at paragraph 14 of your statement.

Page 27938

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Stojanovic, I don't know

 2     whether there's any translation issue but -- or that my knowledge of the

 3     English language is not sufficient, but could you invite the witness to

 4     repeat or to tell us, perhaps in different wording, what we find in the

 5     last three lines of paragraph 7, starting in English with "I have

 6     provided the names ..." because the meaning of that part of his statement

 7     is not entirely clear to me.  Could you invite the witness to either

 8     explain or ...

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Bojanovic, in line with His Honour's suggestion, could you

11     please tell us, regarding the names that you mentioned from the

12     prosecutor's office, these last three names --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, it reads in English:

14             "I have provided the names of military judges and prosecutors in

15     this statement because ..." and then there comes an explanation which is

16     at least not clear to me.  So the last three lines, not the last three

17     bullet points, but the last three lines, whether the witness could tell

18     us, perhaps in his own wording, what he meant.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I understand, Your Honour.

20     I understand.

21        Q.   Mr. Bojanovic, in the last paragraph of paragraph 7 you say that

22     at that time there were no more professionally qualified or more suitable

23     persons than the above-mentioned.  What did you mean by that?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to begin his

25     answer again.

Page 27939

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you please make a pause

 2     between question and answer because when you start your answer the

 3     interpreters are still explaining to us in English what the question was

 4     and they miss part of your answer.  So perhaps the best way would be that

 5     you slowly repeat your -- the last two lines in the original because it

 6     may be that we get a different answer.

 7             I guess we do, Mr. Stojanovic, because the way in which you put

 8     the question was to some extent already resolving the problem.

 9             Could I invite you to slowly read the last two lines of paragraph

10     7, Witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I provide in my statement the names

12     of the judges and the prosecutors because I believe that in the area of

13     responsibility of the corps there were no more better professionally

14     qualified or suitable persons than those that I named.  This is what it's

15     about.  When the military courts were formed --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I just sought clarification of the answer.  What

17     still puzzles me is to say you mentioned the members of the court, the

18     judges and the prosecutors, because there were no better persons.  I

19     thought that you would mention those who were appointed, and then perhaps

20     a second step is that you think that they were appointed because there

21     were no more qualified persons.  That is what I would understand.  Is

22     that what you intended to say?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what I wanted to say.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 27940

 1        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.

 2             And just to complete I would like us to look at paragraph 14 of

 3     your statement.  In the paragraph you comment on one of the cases that

 4     you processed and you say that you issued an order for a warrant of

 5     arrest to be issued.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] So I would like us to look at

 7     document 1D00831.  This is the 65 ter number.

 8        Q.   Did you mean this order when you mentioned what you said in your

 9     statement?

10        A.   Yes, that's the document.  As far as I can remember, I scheduled

11     the main hearing in this case twice, and both times I was informed by the

12     post office that the summons could not be delivered to the accused

13     because he was in Switzerland.  So I proceeded in accordance with the

14     criminal law by issuing an order on the 21st of February, 1993, that

15     the -- their warrant of arrest should be issued for the fugitive.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic, for this clarification of what was in

17     your statement.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps now is a

19     good moment to tender document 65 ter 1D00831.  And by your leave,

20     Your Honours, I would like to read out the other exhibits that we would

21     like to be associated with the statement of this witness,

22     Mr. Savo Bojanovic.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, Mr. Stojanovic, I see that the

24     witness is in his statement referring to 1D25456.  I find that number as

25     a Karadzic 65 ter number and it is apparently corresponding with the

Page 27941

 1     Mladic 65 ter number 1D03106 on your list, on your list.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] You're correct, Your Honour.

 3     That's 1D031 --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I am aware that you now gave another number, but

 5     what I would like to know is:  What then appears under number 1D03106,

 6     where that mistake comes from, and what then may have happened during the

 7     interview of --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all extra microphones be switched off,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  -- of this witness.

11             Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us what we find if we would look

12     at 1D03106?  Can you tell us?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] You would practically have the

14     entire case file of the military court in Bijeljina in the case of

15     Rade Mihajlovic, containing a number of orders, a number of judgements

16     that were made in that case and, among other things, this order that we

17     are discussing now.  We --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You say it's a broader case file.

19             Witness, what was shown to you when you gave your statement and

20     what you referred to in paragraph 14?  Was the whole of the file shown to

21     you or was it just your wanted circular that was shown to you?  Or don't

22     you remember?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just have an order on the monitor

24     on the warrant of arrest which was issued on the 21st of February, 1993.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have D747, paragraph 14 on our screen.

Page 27942

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please switch off your

 2     microphone.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You commented there on a document known by the

 4     number 1D25456.  What was shown to you when you gave this statement?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was shown the order on the

 6     issuance of the warrant of arrest or the wanted circular.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 8             Mr. Stojanovic, the cover page of the -- oh no, I'm sorry.

 9             You were interviewed in July of this year?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you interviewed in any other case before?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the Radovan Karadzic case.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Then you sought a document to be admitted into evidence.  No

15     objections.

16             Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D831 receives number D748,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.  No, I think that's the only

20     document you would like to have in evidence, isn't it, Mr. Stojanovic?

21             Oh, well --

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, by your leave, I

23     would like to tender a few more documents.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I may have been confused.  What I said at this

25     moment is you want to limit yourself to the detention order and not the

Page 27943

 1     whole file.  And now we move on to any other associated exhibits you

 2     would like to tender.  Mr. Stojanovic, could you name them.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 4     tender 65 ter document 1D03105, which accompanies paragraph 11 of the

 5     witness statement.  And by your leave, Your Honours, I would like to read

 6     out the other exhibits that I would like to tender.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's take them one by one unless there are no

 8     objections.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. Stojanovic was kind enough to provide me with a

10     list at the end of the session yesterday.  We have no objections to any

11     of the eight that he's tendering.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Okay.  Then next one, Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The next document, 1D03107 which

14     goes with paragraph 23 of the witness statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Next one.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D02328, that goes with

17     paragraph 24 of the witness statement.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Next one.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D02332, which corresponds to

20     paragraph 24 once again of the witness statement.  Then 1D02333

21     corresponding to paragraph 25 of the witness statement.  Then 1D02334

22     corresponding to paragraph 26 of the witness statement.  And two more

23     documents that correspond to paragraph 27 of the witness statement, those

24     being 1D02335 and 1D02336.  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So I have now eight documents.  I'll read their

Page 27944

 1     numbers.

 2             Madam Registrar, if you would immediately then give the number

 3     assigned.  The first one is 1D03105.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D749, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 6             Next one is 1D03107.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D750, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 9             1D02328.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D751, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

12             1D02332.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D752, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

15             1D02333.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D753, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

18             1D02334.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D754, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

21             1D02335.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D755, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

24             1D02336.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D756, Your Honours.

Page 27945

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and I

 3     would like to thank the witness.  I have no more questions for the

 4     witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- before I give an opportunity to Mr. Traldi to

 6     cross-examine you, Judge Fluegge has one question for you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Bojanovic, we saw on the screen one circular

 8     for arrest warrant, it was about a murder case.  What was, just in brief,

 9     the factual background?  Why was this person wanted for murder?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Due to the fact that he was not

11     accessible to the military judiciary organs, I scheduled the main hearing

12     twice and twice --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- we could not deliver the summons

15     to him.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I understand that, but this was not my question.

17     It was a murder case.  What kind of murder, alleged murder, took place?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Rado Mihajlovic, the accused, in

19     1992 - I'm not sure about the date but I think it was in September - he

20     killed somebody in the barracks dormitory.  I don't remember the name of

21     the victim but it was a Muslim person.  And he allowed the special guards

22     units during capture of an important military facility to enter through

23     certain passages and the police came back to the barracks after the

24     operation with the unit.  Rado Mihajlovic, the accused, once - I think it

25     was September - killed him in the barracks dormitory in Bijeljina.  That

Page 27946

 1     was the -- those were the counts in the indictment, that's what he was

 2     charged with.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that.  Just one question:  Was the

 4     victim a detainee or a soldier in the barracks?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he was not a detainee.  He was

 6     sleeping in the dorm when he was killed with the rest of the unit --

 7     soldiers from that unit.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I nevertheless have one follow-up question there.

10     You say it was in September 1992.  Was Mr. Mihajlovic, was he a member of

11     the armed forces of the Republika Srpska?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was.  He was a member of

13     that unit.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, the victim was sleeping in the dormitory of

15     that same unit?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this Chamber has received quite some evidence

18     about the composition of the armed forces on both sides and we also

19     learned that there were not many Muslims serving in the armed forces of

20     the Republika Srpska.  You said the victim was a Muslim.  Do you know

21     anything about the background why this Muslim stayed within the

22     Republika Srpska armed forces or why he joined that, because that's --

23     well, not the common thing that happened at the time as far as we learned

24     from the evidence.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 on the western slopes of

Page 27947

 1     Mount Majevica there was a Serbian enclave of three villages that had

 2     been surrounded for a few months, surrounded by the Muslim armed forces.

 3     I think that Smoluca, Podpec, and Tinja were the names of these villages.

 4     A special unit of the Eastern Bosnian Corps, I think in the month of

 5     August, managed to lift that blockade and to get the civilian population

 6     out of this Serb enclave.  A person was from that area and managed to get

 7     the special unit through, and then after that operation he stayed with

 8     that unit until the killing.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I understand you well, that Muslim assisted in

10     the -- in deblocking the Muslim blockade of a Serb enclave and after he

11     had done that he stayed with the Republika Srpska, the VRS?  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Traldi.  You'll

14     find Mr. Traldi to your right.  Mr. Traldi is counsel for the

15     Prosecution.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   Sir, I want to start with a few brief questions about the

22     structure and functioning of your court.  I'm going to begin with your

23     appointment to the court.  You say that you and some others were taken to

24     the corps command in Ugljevik in July 1992 to interview for positions at

25     the Bijeljina military court.  The corps command to which you are

Page 27948

 1     referring is the command of the East Bosnia Corps of the VRS; right?

 2        A.   Yes, that's right.

 3        Q.   And when you say you and some others were recommended to be

 4     military judges by the competent VRS command, again you're speaking of

 5     the command of the East Bosnia Corps of the VRS; right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   Now, your court would compile reports on its work; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Those would be submitted to the supreme military court; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the supreme military court would also compile reports on its

12     work, wouldn't it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Do you know to whom those reports were submitted?

15        A.   Well, I assume to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska

16     and the government, or rather, the president of the republic.

17        Q.   When you say the Main Staff, you mean specifically the sector

18     for, if I recall correctly, legal, moral, and religious affairs?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And the military prosecutor's offices, like the military courts,

21     were attached to the relevant corps commands; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And there was a supreme military prosecutor's office attached to

24     the Main Staff; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27949

 1        Q.   And you said a moment ago that the East Bosnia Corps command

 2     recommended your appointment.  Do you know to whom they made that

 3     recommendation?

 4        A.   I really don't know that.  I just know that in the summer of 1992

 5     I was called to the barracks at Bijeljina to go to Ugljevik with a number

 6     of colleagues, and I think there was a conversation with the

 7     representatives of the Main Staff.

 8        Q.   Do you recall which representatives of the Main Staff?

 9        A.   Well, I really cannot remember.  It was a long time ago.  I just

10     know that General Govedarica -- no, Colonel Govedarica, I think that was

11     his name, was in a way the co-ordinator of the military courts and he

12     often came to see us on behalf of the Main Staff.  I don't know whether

13     he attended that meeting in Ugljevik.  I really cannot recall.

14        Q.   Who was it that finally signed your appointment?

15        A.   The president of the republic, Radovan Karadzic.

16        Q.   I next have two questions about sentencing.  First, your court

17     followed a sentencing policy which was decided on during joint meetings

18     of the judges of the court in contact with the supreme military court;

19     right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Second, only a sentence of five years or more triggered a

22     mandatory requirement for detention; right?

23        A.   Yes, that is what the law prescribes.

24        Q.   Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement you say that the military

25     courts were formed with the corps commands and their jurisdictions

Page 27950

 1     covered the zones of responsibility of the VRS corps.  You discussed this

 2     at transcript page 3 today and I'm returning to it to clarify the record.

 3     It's right that when you first became a judge your court had jurisdiction

 4     over the East Bosnia Corps zone of responsibility; right?

 5        A.   Yes, at first.  However, very soon it turned out that, as I've

 6     already mentioned when I first started testifying, our area of

 7     responsibility went to the river Bosna in the west - rather, the town of

 8     Doboj - and also the area of Podrinje, later on the area of

 9     responsibility of the Drina Corps which I think was established in

10     September that same year.

11        Q.   I was asking because you'd been recorded earlier as saying that

12     when the Krajina Corps was established in September 1991 that became part

13     of your jurisdiction.  In fact, it was when the Drina Corps was

14     established at the end of October 1992, right, that you acquired

15     jurisdiction over the Drina Corps area?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Now, you refer to jurisdiction being based on zones of

18     responsibility.  If a soldier from the Herzegovina Corps was fighting in

19     Vlasenica as part of a joint operation and committed a crime, which court

20     would have had jurisdiction?

21        A.   [Inaudible]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the witness

23     at all.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness.  Please do not come very close to

25     the microphone but speak in the direction of the microphone, because the

Page 27951

 1     interpreters are unable to hear you.

 2             Perhaps the usher could assist and let's give it another try.

 3     The question was:

 4             "If a soldier from the Herzegovina Corps was fighting in

 5     Vlasenica as part of a joint operation and committed a crime, which court

 6     would have had jurisdiction?"

 7             Could you answer that question, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The military court in Bijeljina

 9     would be in charge since territorial jurisdiction was based on where the

10     crime had been committed, not on the affiliation of a particular soldier

11     with a particular unit.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   I want to turn now, sir, to the cases discussed in your

14     statement.  First the Rade Mihajlovic case which you also discussed this

15     morning and which you discuss in paragraph 14.  Mr. Mihajlovic was

16     charged with killing a Muslim named Enes Tabakovic in the Vojvoda Stepa

17     Stepanovic barracks in Bijeljina?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, you testified this morning that Mr. Tabakovic was not a

20     detainee there.  The military court documents in the case did refer to

21     him as a detainee, didn't they?

22        A.   I wouldn't put it that way.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we go into private session for a moment,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

Page 27952

 1                           [Private session]

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Page 27953











11  Page 27953 redacted.  Private session.















Page 27954

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

Page 27955

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Remaining on the Mihajlovic case, sir, Mr. Mihajlovic was in

 4     custody for much of the investigation but he was released before he was

 5     indicted; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And your involvement in the case was basically just to issue the

 8     wanted notice this morning after he'd become a fugitive; right?

 9        A.   No.  I got that case and I was supposed to carry out the entire

10     procedure and I was supposed to pass the judgement in that case.

11        Q.   Basically the only thing you did in the case was to issue a

12     wanted notice because he was a fugitive; right?

13        A.   Yes, there is nothing else I could have done.

14        Q.   Now, you say in paragraph 14 of your statement that you do not

15     know about the further fate of the case.  In fact, he was only eventually

16     convicted in absentia in 2001; correct?

17        A.   Yes, I learned that later.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you learn that, Witness?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I learned that when preparing to

20     testify in the case of Radovan Karadzic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you gave your statement in this case, you

22     were interviewed, the 14th of July of this year; isn't it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, I read in that statement that you do

25     not know about the further fate of this case.  If you learned it during

Page 27956

 1     your preparation for the Karadzic testimony, you would have known on the

 2     14th of July about the further fate of this case, isn't it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I thought that that was not

 4     relevant for this testimony because I did not take any other action in

 5     that case.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If it was irrelevant, you could have left it out.

 7     You can't say "I don't know the fate" if you do know, isn't it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  You are right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Again, I'm talking about facts and apparently you

10     have not corrected it at any later stage.

11             Mr. Traldi.

12             May I warn you to really to perhaps even carefully re-read your

13     statement and consider whether everything is true, not whether it's

14     relevant or not.  It's a very bad excuse to say:  I considered it

15     irrelevant.  If it's irrelevant, don't mention it.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TRALDI:

18        Q.   Sir, I'm going to address two more cases briefly before the

19     break.  In your statement you discuss a case number IK11393 involving

20     Petar Trifkovic and others.  I only have one question about it:  None of

21     the accused in that case received a sentence of five years or more, did

22     they?

23        A.   Yes, not more.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Traldi, which paragraph of the statement?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it 23 you're referring to?

Page 27957

 1             MR. TRALDI:  That sounds right according to my memory, but I'm

 2     afraid I didn't note it this time.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's the number of the case.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Yes, paragraph 2 --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Presiding Judge answered my question.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you both, Your Honours.

 7        Q.   I have a few brief questions about the Tasovac case, which we

 8     discuss -- which you discuss, rather, in paragraph 24.  Now, first, I'd

 9     like to set out briefly the facts and ask you to confirm that I have them

10     right.  Mr. Tasovac met some ethnic Croat civilians on the street.  He

11     said:

12             "You motherfucking Ustasha, I'll kill you now."

13             And then when one started to run away, Mr. Tasovac shot at him

14     twice and killed him in front of his wife and his mother.  Is that a

15     correct statement of the facts of the case?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   This was on the 1st of September, 1992; right?

18        A.   Yes.  I carried out the investigation in that case.

19        Q.   And he was detained for three days and then released on the

20     4th of September, 1992; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   A death certificate for the victim wasn't even issued until June

23     of 1993, was it?

24        A.   That I really do not know.

25        Q.   Well, there was no conviction until after you left the military

Page 27958

 1     court; right?

 2        A.   Probably.  I don't remember.  I just know that he received four

 3     and a half years in prison.

 4        Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge as to how much time he

 5     actually spent in prison?

 6        A.   I don't know.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'm about to turn to another case.  I

 8     think that one will take me more than the minute or two we have before

 9     the break, and so for continuity I'd suggest that we break a little bit

10     early.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We then take the break now.

12             Witness, we would like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We take a

13     break.  You may now follow the usher.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to enter the

19     courtroom, could I verify whether there are any compelling reasons not to

20     sit on Wednesday, the 12th?

21             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour.

22             MR. LUKIC:  No, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will sit on the 12th of November and we'll

24     not sit on Friday, the 14th of November.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 27959

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may continue.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Next, sir, in paragraph 11 of your statement you discuss the

 4     Cvetkovic and Jurosevic case and the transfer of the suspects to the

 5     judicial authorities in Brcko.  You corrected the date in this paragraph

 6     yesterday at transcript page 27929.  Can we assume you reviewed this

 7     paragraph carefully in preparation for your testimony?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, considering that correction you say that on the 30th of

10     October, 1992, you were contacted by the person on duty at the military

11     court and told that the military police apprehended two people suspected

12     of raping two Muslim women in Brcko.  You mention that the same evening

13     you took statements from the victims, interrogated the suspects, and

14     ordered their detention; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, could we briefly move into private

17     session?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 27960











11  Page 27960 redacted.  Private session.















Page 27961

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Sir, when you met with Mr. Cvetkovic on the 29th of October,

 7     1992, you specifically interviewed him about this murder case; right?

 8        A.   Yes, evidently.

 9        Q.   And while in your statement you say that he was not a member of

10     the military when he committed the rapes, he was a member of the VRS when

11     he allegedly committed this murder; right?

12        A.   No, that is -- actually, we established that he was not a member

13     of the armed forces.  At the time that he committed the killing, he was a

14     volunteer.  We established that.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we have 65 ter 1D02311.

16        Q.   As it comes up in the English this is a record of an interview of

17     Mr. Cvetkovic, and at the top it refers to the crime, Article 36,

18     paragraph 2, that's murder; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And under "present" we see below investigating investigating

21     judge Captain Savo Bojanovic; that's you yourself, correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. TRALDI:  Now, if we could turn to page 4 in the English and

24     page 3 in the B/C/S, the third paragraph from the bottom in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   We see a note that during the interview the accused presented the

Page 27962

 1     court with a certificate issued by military post 7410 on 13th of October,

 2     1992, in Brcko, which shows that he was in the 7th Novi Sad Company from

 3     21 June to 19 September 1992.  That included the time when he allegedly

 4     co-perpetrated the murder; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, you testified in the Karadzic case that you weren't aware

 7     that Mr. Cvetkovic and Mr. Jurosevic were charged with murder.  In fact,

 8     clearly you'd been aware of it for more than two decades; right?

 9        A.   I am afraid that I forgot that because so much time had passed

10     since then.

11        Q.   Now, the day after this interrogation, the 30th of October, 1992,

12     the investigation was expanded to include the multiple rapes that you

13     discuss in your statement; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, the rapes were believed to have been perpetrated by

16     Mr. Cvetkovic, not by Mr. Jurosevic; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you released both of them before completing your

19     investigation; right?

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, Witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were released from detention

24     due to the fact that the date had expired for them to be kept in

25     detention.  I think that the period of time that had expired was 60 days.

Page 27963

 1     I'm not sure.  And since there was no request by the prosecutor to extend

 2     the detention by another three months, I had to release them.  The

 3     supreme military court would also have been able to prolong the detention

 4     for an additional 90 days.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   And detention could be prolonged under the law because of the

 7     nature of the crimes they were suspected of; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And neither Mr. Cvetkovic nor Mr. Jurosevic was convicted during

10     the war; correct?

11        A.   No, correct.

12        Q.   Just to make sure the record pellucidly clear, you've agreed with

13     me that neither one was corrected -- was convicted during the war; right?

14        A.   Yes, I learned that proceedings were conducted against them after

15     the war before a court in Brcko in view of the fact that they were not

16     under the jurisdiction of the military court, and I think that Cvetkovic

17     is being processed before the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina for war

18     crimes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender this document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2311 receives number P6894,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   In paragraphs 25 through 27 of your statement you discuss a

Page 27964

 1     number of cases involving instances of theft by members of the VRS.  Now,

 2     your court applied a particular policy that a suspended sentence had

 3     sufficient effect in such cases; right?

 4        A.   There is a technical problem.  I cannot hear.  I didn't hear the

 5     interpretation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your question, Mr. Traldi.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Of course, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Sir, can you hear me speaking now?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   In paragraphs 25 through 27 of your statement you discuss a

11     number of cases involving instances of theft by members of the VRS.  Your

12     court applied a particular policy that a suspended sentence had

13     sufficient effect in such cases; right?

14        A.   Yes.  When these crimes are concerned, our --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.  We're

16     having a lot of difficulty hearing him.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you please speak more slowly

18     because the interpreters are unable to follow you.  Could you please

19     resume from where you said "when these crimes are concerned ..." and then

20     you continued and that was on a question about the policy of suspended

21     sentences to be applied in cases of theft by members of the VRS.  Could

22     you resume from there, when these crimes are concerned, yes?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  We took the position in

24     sentencing for these types of crimes that suspended sentences would have

25     the same effect of punishment due to the fact that all the perpetrators

Page 27965

 1     were members of the Army of Republika Srpska and by pronouncing or

 2     passing a proper sentence we would damage the working power of the JNA --

 3     of the army, so that is why we took the position that a suspended

 4     sentence would be more effective for these types of crimes.

 5             MR. TRALDI:

 6        Q.   Now, I have questions about the few of the cases that you discuss

 7     in your statement.  Regarding the correct -- the case against

 8     Milan Peric, it's correct that the alleged victim of the theft was in

 9     fact a publicly owned company; right?

10        A.   Yes, a state-owned company and that was the judgement.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 1D02339.

12        Q.   As it comes up, this will be the judgement in the case against

13     Cviko and Milorad Radovanovic.

14             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have page 2 in the English and the

15     bottom of page 1 in the B/C/S.

16        Q.   Now, this judgement in the paragraph below the words "are guilty"

17     refers to the conviction of these people for taking property from

18     "several abandoned houses of unknown owners."

19             Now, you don't mention in your statement that the property they

20     were convicted of stealing was abandoned when they took it, do you?

21        A.   I didn't understand you.  Could you please repeat your question.

22        Q.   Sure.  And I'll rephrase to be as clear as possible.  In your

23     statement you say these convictions were for theft of Muslim property.

24     You don't mention that in this case the property they were convicted of

25     stealing had already been abandoned by its owners; right?

Page 27966

 1        A.   It says from a number of abandoned houses of unknown owners they

 2     are responsible ...

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The interpretation stopped.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Indeed.

 5        Q.   Sir, you were explaining that it says in the judgement that this

 6     property came from a number of abandoned houses of unknown owners.  Could

 7     you repeat any further explanation that you just provided?

 8        A.   These were abandoned houses of unidentified owners from a place

 9     called Tursunovo Brdo, which was inhabited exclusively by Muslims.

10        Q.   And that was a village in Ugljevik municipality; right?

11        A.   Yes, it's actually the hamlet of Teocak.  It's part of the

12     village of Teocak.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Now, turning to page 4 in the English and the bottom

14     of page 2 in the B/C/S --

15        Q.   And while we do, I think His Honour Judge Moloto may have a

16     question for you.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Actually for you, Mr. Traldi.

18             Mr. Traldi, you started asking the witness about the case against

19     Milan Peric, who was supposed to have stolen from a company victim.  And

20     then you called for this exhibit which deals with other people.  I'm

21     trying to connect the Milan Peric case with what you are following and

22     can you -- I'm not quite sure whether you are done with the Peric case or

23     not.

24             MR. TRALDI:  I am, Your Honour.  What I'm doing is going through

25     some of the cases addressed in paragraph 27 of the witness's statement.

Page 27967

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sure.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  -- which he refers to as convictions for theft of

 3     movable property belonging to individuals of Croat and Muslim

 4     ethnicities.  Related to the Peric case my only question was:  This was a

 5     socially owned company that he was convicted of stealing from; right.

 6     And I've turned now to the next case.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  I'm sorry for not being more clear.

 9        Q.   Sir, we're now at page 4 in the English.

10             MR. TRALDI:  And if we could have the bottom of page 2 in the

11     B/C/S.

12        Q.   It's describing the arguments by the defendants.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And at the end of paragraph -- of the second

14     paragraph from the top in the English.

15        Q.   The defendants say in part that these properties would have

16     burned when the houses at Tursunovo Brdo were burned.  The houses at

17     Tursunovo Brdo were in fact burned after they were abandoned; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.  It was

20     initially an associated exhibit.  I'm happy to have either a D or a P

21     number depending on Mr. Stojanovic's preference.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not want to tender this

24     document precisely for these reasons, but as far as I am concerned I

25     think that it would be more logical for the document to be admitted as a

Page 27968

 1     P number.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I understand.  I'm fine with that.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by exactly for these reasons?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, precisely for the

 5     reasons that I tried to reduce my list of exhibits, I did not tender this

 6     document.  This is actually one of the documents that I did not tender,

 7     but I confirm that the document was originally on that first list.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One question, where the witness states that

 9     property was stolen in the Peric case from Croat and Muslim -- persons of

10     Croat and Muslim ethnicity, whereas the document apparently tells us that

11     it was a socially owned company.  Mr. Stojanovic, why when you apparently

12     have shown this document to the witness, why didn't you tell him that

13     what he told you is contradicted by the document you have shown him?  And

14     I'm now returning to the Peric case.

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  During

16     proofing of the witness I did go through that judgement with the witness.

17     I asked him:  Why is this an argument for the thesis that he put forward.

18     He informed me that this was a company that was in the town of Brcko, the

19     part that belonged to the Muslims.  And then I said:  It's better not to

20     go with that, that the assertion was too broad, and that was the reason

21     why I decided not to tender this document as part of the argument for

22     what he was saying.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If you are convinced and if you have put to the

24     witness that what he stated in his statement is not in line with the

25     document you've shown him, then the appropriate action is not not to

Page 27969

 1     tender that document.  The appropriate action is to correct the statement

 2     so that it is truthful again rather than of dubious truth.  Would you

 3     please keep that in mind whenever you proof a witness again, that you

 4     should have changed the statement or you should have at least adopted

 5     something in the proofing note and not just not to tender the document.

 6     That's not the appropriate way of proceeding.

 7             I leave it to that for the time being.

 8             Mr. Traldi, you're still waiting for the number, isn't it?

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I am for 1D02339.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             Madam Registrar, you may give it a P number because that's the

12     preference of Mr. Stojanovic.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2339 receives P6895, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 1D02337.

16        Q.   And this will be the Arsenic case which you also mention in

17     paragraph 27 and the judgement in that case.

18             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 2 in the English and again

19     page 1 below the word "guilty" or "is guilty" in the B/C/S.

20        Q.   We see that Mr. Arsenic was also convicted of stealing property

21     from several houses of unknown owners in Brcko.

22             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 5 in the English and page 3

23     in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   We see at the bottom of the third paragraph in the English and

25     the first paragraph in the first paragraph in the B/C/S that "the earlier

Page 27970

 1     owners of the items had been forced to leave their homes due to the war."

 2     Now, your evidence is that those people were Muslims; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is a part of town of Brcko that is called Klanac where

 4     Muslims lived and it was in the zone of war operations, and all the

 5     inhabitants of that area had already left their homes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 4 in the English and 2 in the

 7     B/C/S.

 8        Q.   And what we're going to see on much of this page is a description

 9     of what the accused said in his defence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  At the bottom of the page in the English and the

11     bottom of the third paragraph from the bottom in the B/C/S, we see that

12     he said:

13        Q.   "That the command of his unit did not approve such conduct.  On

14     the contrary, it was forbidden to take war booty home."

15             Now, the property that he was convicted of stealing was supposed

16     to be treated as war booty, wasn't it?

17        A.   Well, there was no war booty during this war as far as I know.

18     The point was to defend and protect everybody's property during this war,

19     including in the zone of war operations and that is confirmed by this.

20        Q.   So you don't recall then what the Republika Srpska regulations at

21     the time said should be done with war booty?

22        A.   Well, believe me, I was not aware of any such regulations and the

23     other judges in the military court weren't aware of that either.  This

24     was an unknown category.

25        Q.   I'd put to you that the regulations at the time were that war

Page 27971

 1     booty was supposed to go to the state reserves; that's true, isn't it?

 2        A.   I really do not know about that.

 3        Q.   Now, regarding the other cases that you discuss in this

 4     paragraph, the Bozidar Petrovic and Branko Lukic cases, the property

 5     stolen in those cases was also described as having been abandoned by its

 6     Muslim owners; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   They too had left the areas where these operations were being

 9     conducted?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Finally, sir, on the topic of the theft cases, I've reviewed

12     these cases in some detail.  None of the judgements say:  We're only

13     imposing a suspended sentence because of our court's policy regarding

14     theft cases, do they?

15        A.   Well, something like that cannot be stated in a judgement.

16        Q.   So where they refer instead to mitigating factors, that was an

17     attempt to conceal the policy that the judges had agreed on to apply only

18     suspended sentences in those cases; right?

19        A.   That is your position.  That's not the way it is.  I don't think

20     that's the way it is.

21        Q.   Well, then I'll give you an opportunity to explain.  You said

22     something like that cannot be stated in a judgement.  It can't be stated

23     in a judgement because it has to be concealed; right?

24        A.   No.  In a judgement one cannot state the position of the court

25     with regard to penal policy.  We at chambers sessions adopted that

Page 27972

 1     position but we did not include it in the judgement.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 1D02337.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D2337 receives number P6896,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31555.

 8        Q.   This is an armed rebellion case; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The accused is a Muslim?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And he was sentenced to 12 years in prison, that's longer than

13     the sentence in any of the cases you discuss in your statement; right?

14        A.   There were lengthier prison sentences than this one, I'm sure,

15     but I can explain what this is about.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was whether this is a sentence

17     longer than in any of the cases you have dealt with in your statement,

18     not whether there have been lengthier sentences which you do not deal

19     with.  But is this the longer -- is this longer than any of the sentences

20     you discuss in your statement?

21             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot understand the

23     witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your answer.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I think so.

Page 27973

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31555 receives number P6897,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 7             MR. TRALDI:

 8        Q.   Sir, I want to change topics now and turn to Batkovic camp.

 9     Batkovic was under the jurisdiction of the East Bosnia Corps of the VRS;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, a military remand prison is where people who are going to be

13     charged with a crime in the military justice system are held; right?

14        A.   Yes, we had our own detention unit within the military court and

15     persons who were detained by the military court were held in that

16     detention unit.

17        Q.   So Batkovic was not a military remand prison; correct?

18        A.   No, no.

19        Q.   And just to keep the record clear, that's no, it wasn't a

20     military remand prison; right?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   So in general, not exclusively but in general, the people who

23     were being charged with armed rebellion or with any other crime would

24     have been held at the military remand prison, not at Batkovic; right?

25        A.   [No interpretation]

Page 27974

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot understand what

 2     the witness is saying.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   You've been asked to repeat your answer, sir.

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

 7     microphones please be switched off and could the witness please be asked

 8     to come closer to the microphone and to speak clearly.  Thank you very

 9     much.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you come a bit closer to the microphone and

11     could you also try to speak clearly so that your words are not lost.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

13             MR. TRALDI:

14        Q.   I'll repeat my question, sir.  In general the people who were

15     being charged with armed rebellion or with any other crime would have

16     been held at the military remand prison, not at Batkovic; right?

17        A.   As for the person mentioned here Izet, he was not detained, he

18     was already in Batkovic when an indictment was issued against him; that

19     is to say that he was not in the detention unit of the military court in

20     Bijeljina.

21        Q.   Well, you never visited Batkovic in your official capacity;

22     right?

23             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm done with this document, by the way.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 27975

 1        Q.   So you did, however, go to visit people detained there; right?

 2        A.   Yes, several times.  Five or six times for sure I went to

 3     Batkovic.

 4        Q.   Now your kum was detained there; right?

 5        A.   No, no.  My kum who lives in Bijeljina is a Muslim and some of

 6     his friends, Muslims who lived abroad in Germany and Austria, asked him

 7     to take cigarettes, food, letters to Batkovic to other people who were

 8     held there.  And now because of our relationship I went to Batkovic and

 9     took cigarettes, food, and letters to these persons.  He never went

10     there.  He lives in Bijeljina and he lived in Bijeljina throughout the

11     war.

12        Q.   Now, the detainees you visited there were Muslim civilians,

13     weren't they?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31393.

16        Q.   In paragraph 18 of your statement you say that the Red Cross

17     "supervised the Ekonomija collection centre," that's what's known as

18     Batkovic; right?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   Now, this document comes from the Main Staff to the command of

21     the Drina Corps and is dated 8 October 1993.  And I think we're having --

22     we're taking a moment to get the B/C/S up.

23             MR. TRALDI:  If I could have just a second, Your Honours.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The Registrar tells me we have a technical problem,

Page 27976

 1     but apparently it's there now.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  I apologise for the delay.

 3        Q.   Sir, this document comes from the Main Staff to the command of

 4     the Drina Corps.  It's dated the 8th of October, 1993.  Directing your

 5     attention to the lower part of the page we see a reference to a

 6     ten-member Red Cross team which will be visiting prisoners in Batkovici

 7     and the order says:

 8             "Please notify the administration of the centre in Batkovici,

 9     Ministry of the Interior organs, and the local authorities."

10             So the truth is that camp authorities would be notified like

11     this, before the Red Cross came to visit; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31393 receives number P6898,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   I want to turn now, sir, to the case at Vanekov Mlin discussed in

20     paragraph 18 of your statement --

21             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm done with this document.

22        Q.   -- where two detainees were murdered and one was beheaded by VRS

23     soldiers who had stopped to refuel their vehicles.  Those detainees were

24     detained in Batkovic camp at the time; right?

25        A.   Yes, that's right.

Page 27977

 1        Q.   And Vanekov Mlin was across the street from a VRS barracks in

 2     Bijeljina; right?

 3        A.   Yes, it was on the other side of the entrance into the barracks.

 4        Q.   Which barracks was that?

 5        A.   The only barracks in Bijeljina, Vojvoda Stepa Stepanovic, that's

 6     what it was called at the time.

 7        Q.   Do you know what units were accommodated in that barracks?

 8        A.   Which period?

 9        Q.   In 1993, specifically February of 1993 when you conducted the

10     investigation into this murder.

11        A.   These were units of the Eastern Bosnian Corps, that is where the

12     command of the military police was stationed and they assisted us, the

13     military judges, during investigations; but which units they were

14     exactly, I don't know.

15        Q.   Now, you don't know if anyone was ever punished for the murders

16     at Vanekov Mlin, do you?

17        A.   No, I don't know.

18        Q.   But you do know that no one was punished during the war; right?

19        A.   Yes, I don't know, believe me, whether anybody was punished after

20     the war either.

21        Q.   Now, you describe in your statement the steps you took, you

22     collected photo documentation, did interviews, decided to initiate an

23     investigation, and issued a wanted circular for an unidentified

24     perpetrator.  You don't know if any effort beyond that was ever made to

25     identify the 2nd Krajina Corps soldiers who committed this crime, do you?

Page 27978

 1        A.   First of all, I have to tell you that I did not decide to

 2     initiate investigation.  I carried out an on-site investigation, that is

 3     what I was in charge of.  As for record and photo documentation, I

 4     submitted that to the office of the prosecutor and then they were to

 5     initiate an investigation because the perpetrator was not known and I

 6     carried out the on-site investigation during the night.  The next day

 7     when I came to work at the CSB Bijeljina a wanted notice was issued,

 8     person unknown, but probably a soldier of the 2nd Krajina Brigade.  The

 9     rest was not within the purview of the court but the police.  They were

10     supposed to act on the wanted notice and they were supposed to bring in

11     the perpetrator.

12        Q.   Well, the perpetrator's a soldier so when you say the police you

13     mean the military police; right?

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand what

16     the witness said.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you repeat your answer.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the MUP and the centre of

19     public security of Bijeljina that was in charge and that actually offered

20     logistical assistance in such cases to the court in Bijeljina.  The

21     military police did not have such powers.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   These were soldiers.  It was early 1993.  Based on your evidence,

24     the military justice system had jurisdiction whether they were -- whether

25     they had committed the crime on or off duty; right?

Page 27979

 1        A.   Yes.  At that moment we still did not have an accurate position

 2     with regard to subject matter jurisdiction.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you're going beyond your one-hour

 4     estimate.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, my estimate was two hours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, then I stand corrected.  If that -- yes, two

 7     hours.  Then I was -- I have not taken sufficient notice of the

 8     information.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  And I can say I expect rather than going beyond it

10     to be a bit below it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

12             Please proceed.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I at this moment put an additional question

14     to the witness.

15             A minute ago you at the beginning of a longer answer you said:

16             "First of all, I have to tell you that I did not decide to

17     initiate investigation.  I carried out an on-site investigation.  That's

18     what I was in charge of."

19             That was your answer.  When I read your statement in paragraph

20     18, the penultimate paragraph, third sentence I read:

21             "I made a decision on initiating the investigating proceedings

22     and issued a wanted circular for an unknown perpetrator."

23             Can you explain what you mean -- can you please explain why you

24     said that you did not decide to initiate investigations?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this must be a mistake

Page 27980

 1     in my statement.  I just issued a wanted notice because the record and

 2     the photo documentation, all of that I provided to the Eastern Bosnia

 3     Corps and they were supposed to act on that.  I think that that statement

 4     of mine was mistranslated in that section.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll check that.

 6             Could a check be made over the next break of the relevant line in

 7     the B/C/S and the English translation.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you organise that just this line, whether

 9     it could be verified, whether there's any mistranslation.

10             MR. TRALDI:  May I proceed, Mr. President?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   Sir, you say this brigade had stopped to fill their vehicles with

14     fuel.  Did you determine if a record was created of the fuel being

15     provided to them during your investigation?

16        A.   Yes, that was not in dispute because buses that drove soldiers

17     from the Drina front line stopped and the soldiers got out while the

18     buses got into the barracks and went to the gasoline station to get

19     gasoline.  And the killings took place as the buses were being fuelled.

20        Q.   Did you determine what unit in the brigade had been there filling

21     up their buses with fuel?

22        A.   I had information that it was a unit from the 2nd Krajina Corps.

23        Q.   Now, the 2nd Krajina Corps at the time would have had a number of

24     units, clearly a fairly large number of units; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 27981

 1        Q.   And the receipt for the fuel wouldn't just have said "2nd Krajina

 2     Corps unit unidentified," would it?

 3        A.   Believe me, I didn't check that.

 4        Q.   So you didn't make an effort to identify what unit the

 5     perpetrators were from?

 6        A.   The police was supposed to do that on my orders.

 7        Q.   And you don't know if they ever did?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Clearly the military courts were aware of these murders.  Was the

10     Batkovic camp command also notified since it was people detained there

11     who had been killed?

12        A.   Of course.  On the third day a delegation of the

13     International Red Cross came.  They were supervising Batkovic.  They came

14     to attend a meeting with me and Momir Radulovic, deputy prosecutor,

15     attended the meeting too.  I made them aware of the on-site investigation

16     report, everything I collected, and also the order to issue a wanted

17     notice.

18        Q.   Was the corps command notified that this murder had taken place?

19     And I'm speaking first of the East Bosnia Corps command.

20        A.   [No interpretation]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not understand

22     what the witness was saying.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, could you please repeat your answer and perhaps speak up a

25     little bit.

Page 27982

 1        A.   No.  I mean, there was no duty to inform the corps command

 2     because the military judiciary was not subordinated to the

 3     Eastern Bosnia Corps.  Believe me, we did not send such reports for other

 4     crimes either that we dealt with, or rather, that we tried.

 5        Q.   Now, you're familiar with Article 142 of the Criminal Code;

 6     right?

 7        A.   You will have to remind me, please.

 8        Q.   Sure.  That's the article dealing with war crimes against the

 9     civilian population, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, there wasn't a single Article 142 prosecution before the

12     Bijeljina military court of a VRS soldier for crimes against non-Serbs

13     during the entire war, was there?

14        A.   While I was at the military court, until the end of 1993, there

15     were none, and I think that I really didn't hear of any such cases being

16     tried after that either.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I believe we're at the time for the

18     break.  I note I'll be only about 10 or 15 minutes afterwards.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you stay well within the time-limits you

20     announced, Mr. Traldi.  Could the witness already follow the usher.

21             We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Witness.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take that break, I asked the

24     translation - not the interpretation in court - but the translation of

25     the one line in the statement to be verified, which is:

Page 27983

 1             "I made a decision on initiating the investigation proceedings

 2     and issued a wanted circular for an NN perpetrator."

 3             That is the line we're interested in.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic or Mr. Lukic, I'm addressing you.  Of course we

 5     don't have to bother the CLSS with the issue if you agree that the

 6     English version corresponds with the B/C/S version.  Then we don't have

 7     to bother them.  Then I'll put to the witness that -- the witness

 8     suggested that the original did not include the words that he had decided

 9     that investigations would be initiated.  Because if you agree that the

10     translation is accurate -- I don't know who made the translation of the

11     statement.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you can just

13     allow us to let you know after the break because then we can just look at

14     the original and compare it to the translation.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, may I take it that you have the

16     original available?  If not, we'll put it on the screen right away so

17     that you can verify it at this moment.  We can't wait until after the

18     break because I want to put to the witness if he's correct I want to

19     invite those responsible for the translation to apologise to the witness

20     for the bad translation.  If, however, he's blaming others for what he

21     should have clearly seen in the original, then I may use other language.

22     Could you please check.  I think the statement is D747 if I'm not

23     mistaken and could we have that on our screen.  Could we have paragraph

24     18 in both languages --

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just -- just bear with me for

Page 27984

 1     one moment, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Stojanovic, it's on the B/C/S version the

 3     third paragraph from the bottom, the third sentence which is the second

 4     and the third line of that paragraph.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what we'd like to know is whether the

 6     original does not state that the witness made a decision on initiating

 7     the investigation proceedings.  Does it appear in the original or does it

 8     not?

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It states in the original,

10     Your Honours:

11             "I issued a decision on initiating the investigation proceedings

12     and issued a wanted circular for an NN perpetrator."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then I may have to use other language than

14     apologies.

15             Under those circumstances, there seems to be no dispute.

16             Who prepared the translation, Mr. Stojanovic?  Do you know?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that the

18     translation was taken from the Karadzic case because it's a statement

19     that is identical to what was said in the Karadzic case except for minor

20     corrections that the witness provided to our investigator regarding his

21     own personal status.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That may explain a few matters.  So that was done at

23     the 14th of July where he was interviewed and where we read that this is

24     the statement resulting from this interview.

25             We take a break and we'll resume at 20 minutes past midday.

Page 27985

 1                           --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, if I could.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Bibles.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, I just want to

 6     introduce Mr. Jason File who is assisting Mr. Traldi with this witness.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. FILE:  Good afternoon.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome in court.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Traldi, before you proceed I must say I just

12     have a question to put to the witness.

13             Sir, just before the break at page 46, line 12, you were asked

14     the question:

15             "So you didn't make an effort to identify what unit the

16     perpetrators were from?"

17             You said:

18             "The police was supposed to do that on my orders."

19             The next question was:

20             "And you don't know if they ever did?"

21             You said:

22             "I don't know."

23             My question to you is:  Did you quiz the police why they didn't

24     obey your order?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not because I was not in

Page 27986

 1     charge of that investigation.  After conducting the on-the-scene

 2     investigation, I sent the request to the prosecutor's office who then in

 3     turn submitted a request.  So I carried out that job as the on-duty

 4     investigative judge who was on duty that week.  I wasn't in charge of the

 5     case.  So the question would need to be put to the investigating judge

 6     who was supposed to actually be processing that case and who issued that

 7     order to the prosecutor's office.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, the order was issued by you to the police?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and it had to be done in

10     summary procedure due to the fact that the perpetrator fled from the

11     scene of the crime.  I was not the one who actually conducted the

12     investigation.  I was the investigating judge on duty.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you continue, Mr. Traldi.

15             Witness, I would like to briefly re-visit what you said before

16     the break.  You said:

17             "There must be a translation error because I only issued a wanted

18     circular for an NN perpetrator and I did not say that I made a decision

19     on initiating the investigation proceedings."

20             You said that must be a translation error.  You remember?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not.  It's not common in this court that you

23     blame others for what is your own shortcoming.  Both in the B/C/S version

24     and in the English version the same text appears.  Now, if you think it's

25     wrong then you should have carefully read your statement and you should

Page 27987

 1     have corrected it instead of blaming translators for that.  And this is

 2     now the third time that a similar thing happens.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not seeking comment at this moment, although

 5     apologies are -- I understand that you want to apologise for that.  I was

 6     explaining to you that it's now the third time that you're not

 7     appropriately dealing with your own statement.  The other one was your

 8     knowledge about what happened to a case.  You had gained knowledge in the

 9     Karadzic case, nevertheless in the Mladic case your statement says that

10     you do not know what happened where you now do know.  You explained that

11     by saying that you considered it irrelevant.  And I now take you to the

12     third item, the third item deals with the examples of the cases which

13     demonstrate -- which demonstrate how well the system was performing its

14     duties in paragraph 27.  Questions were put to you by Mr. Traldi on

15     whether really these cases were about Croat and Muslim victims, at least

16     nuances are to be made there because a company is not a Croat or a Muslim

17     and you explained that since it was in the area mainly inhabited by that

18     you just put them on the same level.

19             We heard from Mr. Stojanovic in your absence, I think, that he

20     had discussed with you that the examples given in paragraphs 27 are not

21     giving full and adequate support to your statement, and also that he

22     discussed that with you.  Under those circumstances, you should have

23     corrected your statement.

24             These are just three examples of where you have been inaccurate

25     and one time even blaming others for your own inaccuracy.  That's not

Page 27988

 1     what we expect a witness to do and it's also not what we expect a witness

 2     to do who has a professional background which should him make aware of

 3     these matters.

 4             I leave it to that but I urge you to be very accurate and very

 5     precise in any answers.  And if there are any other corrections to be

 6     made to your statement, it would be preferable that you do it on your own

 7     initiative rather than that the matter is put to you in cross-examination

 8     or during questions by the Bench.

 9             I leave it to that.

10             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Sir, we discussed Batkovic camp before the break.  Several of the

13     senior officers at Batkovic camp, Major Djoko Pajic, Petar Dmitrovic,

14     Ljubisa Misic, and Djordje Krstic, are currently on trial in Bijeljina

15     for crimes committed at Batkovic; right?

16        A.   Yes, I am aware of that.

17        Q.   None of them were tried in your court during the war, were they?

18        A.   That is correct.

19        Q.   Finally, sir, I have a few brief questions about Bijeljina.  You

20     lived in Bijeljina municipality throughout the war; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, you don't mention this in your statement, but the

23     overwhelming majority of the Muslim population of Bijeljina left the

24     municipality during the war between 1992 and 1995; right?

25        A.   Yes, that is correct.

Page 27989

 1        Q.   I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a video-clip labelled 65 ter

 2     22668A and we'll have to play it twice.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is one of the many new

 5     admission centres in Tuzla, last night one hour before midnight following

 6     the 1400 expelled Bosniaks from Semberija who were accommodated in other

 7     admission centres in Tuzla and the neighbouring towns yesterday, soon

 8     this hall will be prepared to admit new victims who will come in the

 9     course of the night from Mount Majevica area.  It is midnight.  Bus after

10     bus is arriving to Tuzla during this rain and chilly night.  Those who

11     are coming are women, children, old people, and only now and then an

12     able-bodied man.  Others have been separated from their families by

13     Chetnik gangs, imprisoned in camps.  There are Bosniak families arriving,

14     who were once well off but now all their property has been seized and

15     looted and who even had to pay a lot in foreign currency and gold for

16     deportation tickets for a night walk in rain and through Majevica woods,

17     past minefields.

18             "Even seriously disabled, poor old grannies, and paralyzed

19     Munevera Bajramovic.  Hopefully at least someone in this dormant world

20     will ask to whom could have Munevera Bajramovic posed an impediment, same

21     as Zade Manjic's twins also from Janja.  They don't even have names yet,

22     they're just born, yet these days the brother and sister from the Manjic

23     family will get border passes and number for toddlers.

24             "Lord, may Bosnia -- may justice in Bosnia win out at least.

25     These people are not handball or basketball game spectators.  These

Page 27990

 1     people are expelled Bosniaks from Janja waiting for mattresses and

 2     sponges to be put on the hall floor, the ill-fate and constant companions

 3     of Bosniaks in the current days of horrible genocide committed against

 4     them by Chetnik military leaders from Pale.

 5             "People are waiting.  Another Tuzla admission centre hall is

 6     slowly getting filled up.  The second hour past midnight is passing.

 7     This night another 427 expellees have arrived from Semberija.  The people

 8     with harsh scars on their souls, physically and emotionally broken.  The

 9     only thing that criminals did not manage to kill in them is hope.  They

10     are getting ready to at least spend peacefully their second night in

11     exile.  The first night they spent surrounded by gangs of

12     Vojkan Djurkovic, Rista, and other war criminals in the trucks on

13     Majevica mountain.  It is the 19th of September of the war 1994, in

14     Tuzla, one hour past noon, yet another bus from Majevica and yet another

15     group of Bosniak expellees.  The Janja tragedy is getting to an end.  Now

16     it's the turn for final ethnic cleansing of Bijeljina while the world is

17     still talking about the dictators from Haiti. "

18             MR. TRALDI:

19        Q.   Sir, the people we saw in that video who'd been sent out of

20     Bijeljina, those were clearly civilians; right.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You're aware that as described in that video, Muslims were

23     expelled from Bijeljina in September 1994; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   By the end of the war there were few -- very few Muslims left in

Page 27991

 1     Bijeljina municipality; right?

 2        A.   That is correct, yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 22668A and I have no

 4     further questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that the CD is on its way to Madam Registrar.

 8             Having now received the CD, Madam Registrar, the number to be

 9     assigned to the video played?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22668A receives number P6899,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P6899 is admitted into evidence.

13             Mr. Stojanovic, any need to re-examine the witness?

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I just need a little time,

15     Your Honours.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bojanovic, can you please tell us if the

18     directives for criminal prosecution ever order how to try crimes --

19     property crimes, theft, aggravated theft, and crimes like that?

20        A.   I didn't understand what you asked me.

21        Q.   I'm going to simplify the question.  Did you ever have any

22     instructions as to how and what sentence should be given for property

23     crimes, theft, aggravated theft, and so on?

24        A.   We didn't have any instructions because the Trial Chamber

25     presiding judges would take their position accordingly, because there

Page 27992

 1     were a lot of such crimes cropping up during the war.  So we took the

 2     position, as I said in my statement, that we should try such crimes

 3     regardless of who the perpetrators were.  But we took the common position

 4     precisely due to the fact that some perpetrators were from the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska.  So we would pass -- hand down suspended sentences in

 6     those cases.

 7        Q.   Is it your experience that this practice regarding sentencing

 8     policy was something that was followed before the war also?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can you remember what the practice was in peacetime for

11     prosecution of theft?

12        A.   I think that the practice was similar when we're talking about

13     sentencing policy that we applied in trying cases with such crimes.

14        Q.   Do you recall if there were any cases when you handed down

15     executive sentences?

16        A.   Yes, that was the practice as well.  I did mention that.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P6896.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do so, could I ask you a few additional

19     questions.  You said irrespective of background we would try persons the

20     same way.  You also explained that the reason for giving suspended

21     sentences was that the -- it would be good for the army so that the

22     performance of the army would be strengthened.

23             Now, first of all, would you send a Bosniak or a Muslim -- would

24     you have only a suspended sentence for him because he could then

25     strengthen the capacity of the VRS?  I'm trying to understand the logic

Page 27993

 1     in your answers.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.  We would hand down the

 3     same sentence if a Bosniak had committed the same kind of sentence -- a

 4     crime, suspended sentence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Also in order to allow him to go back to his VRS

 6     units?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Or --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he said.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what you last said.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because there were Muslims in the

11     Army of Republika Srpska, at least those that were stationed in

12     Bijeljina.  There were two battalions made up of Muslims.  I think this

13     was in the 3rd Majevica Brigade.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  What time-period are you talking about at this

15     moment?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole war time period.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have one example of a Muslim being --

18     receiving a suspended sentence in order to be able to return to his unit

19     in a theft case?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not have such a case, at

23     least I'm not aware of one.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So it's all theoretical rather than anything else?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

Page 27994

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to draw your attention to

 3     something if you would allow me.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to first ask my next question and then

 5     I give you an opportunity to draw my attention to whatever you consider

 6     important.

 7             You explained that you gave these suspended sentences out of

 8     concern for the functioning of the VRS.  Did I understand that well?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, was the well functioning of the VRS more

11     important than doing justice to victims?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we tried to strike a balance

13     between the two, the need to act fairly, to administer justice, and to

14     have the VRS function because of the war that we happened to be in.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, is that one of the accepted purposes for

16     punishment to be treated more leniently because the army needs you?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it couldn't be put that way.

18     But at first when the war started that was more pronounced and I think

19     that we deterred potential perpetrators that way, and later on in 1993

20     and 1994 we had less such situations.  That's what I wanted to tell you a

21     moment ago, that through this deterrence we managed to have less crime of

22     that kind.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand you well that sending them back to

24     the units was more deterring than to give them sentence which they would

25     have to serve in jail?

Page 27995

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it could be put that way

 2     because there was no case when a suspended sentence was actually

 3     annulled, or rather, that the person in question had committed another

 4     crime during the suspended sentence period.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a slightly different question.

 7             Sir, at page 57, line 12, Mr. Stojanovic asked you:

 8             "Is it your experience that this practice regarding sentencing

 9     policy was something that was followed before the war also?"

10             You answered:

11             "Yes."

12             The next question was:

13             "Can you remember what the practice was in peacetime for

14     prosecution of theft?"

15             You said:

16             "I think the practice was similar when we are talking about

17     sentencing policy and we applied in trying cases with such crimes."

18             Now, my question to you is you said -- told us that you as the

19     judges decided during the war that in order not to undermine the strength

20     of the army you're going to put this practice in place.  My question to

21     you is:  What was the reason for the similar policy in peacetime?  There

22     was no army to be strengthened; what was the reason for it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from this point of view it's

24     hard to answer that question now, but I assume -- well, I don't have that

25     experience now, but I believe that even now the ordinary crime of theft

Page 27996

 1     is dealt with by way of suspended sentences.  I really haven't had the

 2     opportunity to check that, but as far as ordinary theft is concerned I

 3     think that that is the case.  Aggravated theft is different, a different

 4     kind of sentence is imposed in such cases.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  May I ask the question:  Am I supposed to

 6     understand that you are saying in the entire history of former Yugoslavia

 7     to date crimes of theft have never been punished by a jail sentence?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So there has been jail sentences for theft?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What underpinned the policy of suspended sentences

12     in peacetime?  You said it is difficult to answer that question.  Is it

13     then the truth not that in fact that policy didn't exist at that time?

14     You've just told us that there were jail sentences?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course there were but it depends

16     on the positions taken in the courts and they were different.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, you've got to make up your mind which is

18     correct.  You can't say there was a policy of sentencing people only on

19     suspended sentences when you also admit that there were cases where

20     people were given jail sentences for theft.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it all depended on the

22     specific case, on the circumstances under which a crime was committed.  I

23     didn't say always.  I said that there were cases of suspended sentences.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have given me the same answer that you have

25     just given me and I asked you a question.  You cannot say there was a

Page 27997

 1     policy of giving suspended sentences for theft if, in fact, there were

 2     cases of jail sentences.  It must mean that in peacetime cases were dealt

 3     with according to their merit, a suspended sentence was given when it was

 4     found appropriate and a jail sentence was given when it was found

 5     appropriate.  Is it not so?  That's why you say it depended on

 6     circumstances.  So the judiciary was independent and exercising its

 7     discretion judicially, not because of military reasons.  Is that correct?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             I'm done, Mr. Stojanovic.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I ask for P6896 in

13     e-court.  That is the judgement that we saw during the prosecutor's

14     cross-examination.  In the English version could we have the next page,

15     please.  And then in the English version the next page.

16        Q.   Mr. Bojanovic, the crime of aggravated theft, paragraph 3 of

17     Article 148, this person, Dusan Arsenic, did he receive a suspended

18     sentence or not?

19        A.   He was sentenced to prison one year, three months.

20        Q.   Does this judgement confirm that in certain cases, even during

21     the war, you gave jail sentences for certain property-related crimes?

22        A.   Of course.  I've already said it depends on the circumstances

23     involved, and this case shows that.  I believe that this is not the only

24     jail sentence for this kind of crime.

25        Q.   Do you know what the position was of the superior commands in

Page 27998

 1     respect of the protection of property that had been abandoned at that

 2     point in time by the owners?

 3        A.   Well, certainly, that's what we read in one of the judgements

 4     that we saw here, that the commands of units strictly asked their members

 5     to refrain from theft and they welcomed these judgements of ours because

 6     at first in particular they were flooded with complaints against the

 7     members of their units.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just want to intervene here, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             Sir, when I asked you questions you made a distinction between

11     theft and aggravated theft, and you did say that it was a -- the policy

12     to give suspended sentences for theft but not for aggravated theft.  Is

13     that not so?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, this case that you are being referred to, is

16     it theft or aggravated theft?  Just look at that paragraph.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the crime of aggravated theft

18     under Article 148.  That is what you can see here.  You can see it in the

19     statement of reasons.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Therefore, it is not a case of theft that was

21     under your policy of suspended sentences?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is aggravated theft.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So this does not prove anything?  It doesn't

24     disprove your policy?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not quite understand you.

Page 27999

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Your policy was that theft is punished by

 2     suspended sentences.  Aggravated theft was punished by anything that was

 3     appropriate during war time.  So this does not detract from your policy,

 4     this case does not detract from your policy because this is not theft,

 5     this is aggravated theft?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Bojanovic, in the criminal law that you applied, was there a

10     difference in terms of punishment for theft mentioned in Article 147 and

11     aggravated theft mentioned in paragraph 148?

12        A.   There was a difference.  I haven't seen the law in a long time.

13     I cannot say specifically but there was a difference in terms of the

14     punishment envisaged.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Trial Chamber - and this is

16     going to be my last question - how did you organise the duty rosters of

17     investigative judges in terms of time in the military court?

18        A.   At first there were three of us judges there.  We would be on

19     duty ten days per month.  After the number of judges was increased, then

20     we took turns on a weekly basis.  There were quite a few cases,

21     especially in the beginning of the war.  It was really hard work, very

22     strenuous.  Sometimes we would even carry out three on-site

23     investigations in a single day.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic.  Thank you very much for the answers

25     you have provided.

Page 28000

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Just very briefly, Mr. President.

 4                           Further the cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

 5        Q.   Sir, regarding the case we're looking at, the Arsenic case, do

 6     you have any personal knowledge as to how much time if any he spent in

 7     prison?

 8        A.   No.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, it turns out I only had one question.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

11             Let me just -- give me a minute to think about something.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have here you were asked questions about

14     Cvetkovic and Jurosevic and you said:  Since the suspects were not

15     military personnel as we established through further investigative

16     activities the case was transferred due to the lack of jurisdiction.

17             Now, it was put to you that at least during the crime of murder

18     that there were military personnel.  How do you reconcile establishing

19     that they were not and what we find in the document that was shown to you

20     that his military post was specifically mentioned?  Was that a mistake in

21     your statement or was it -- what was it?

22        A.   At first when the war started in Bosnia in addition to the

23     regular army there were many paramilitary formations, not to enumerate

24     all of them, there were quite a few of them, and one of these

25     paramilitary formations were some volunteers from Serbia and these two

Page 28001

 1     accused persons belonged to them.  At first when the military court

 2     started operating the position was taken that military courts should try

 3     all crimes perpetrated by physical persons because there was an imminent

 4     threat of war that had been declared and all able-bodied men of military

 5     age were potential perpetrators who fell under military courts.

 6             It was only in the beginning of 1993 that the position was taken

 7     that only perpetrators of crimes who were members of the VRS who had

 8     committed a crime while they were in the army while they were conducting

 9     their military duties fell under military courts.  That's what the

10     Law on Military Courts and the military prosecutor's office said.  I

11     think it was in 1993 when I was no longer at the court.

12             That was the practice at first, I mean when jurisdiction was not

13     exactly delineated.  So we dealt with all persons including Cvetkovic and

14     Jurosevic.  To the best of my knowledge --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me then interrupt you there because in your

16     statement you say the case was transferred due to the lack of

17     jurisdiction to the regular judicial authorities in Brcko where the crime

18     had been committed.  That sounds as if the case was not referred to the

19     military courts or the military prosecutor which you -- I think you just

20     explained were the competent authorities.  Or have I misunderstood you?

21        A.   You did not quite understand what I was saying.  The case was not

22     transferred to the regular court in Brcko then; it was later.  We carried

23     out an investigation.  I as investigating judge did that.  We already

24     discussed it.  I did certain things but it was only later - I don't know

25     exactly when - I think it was even after the war that this case was --

Page 28002

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but what -- what did you do during the war?

 2     Because as I read paragraph 12 of your statement it doesn't say:  After

 3     many, many years the case was transferred to the regular judicial

 4     authorities.  It says:

 5             "I ordered detention, continued the investigation, since the

 6     suspects were not military personnel, as we established.  The case was

 7     transferred due to the lack of jurisdiction to the regular judicial

 8     authorities."

 9             What did you do then during the war immediately after the crime

10     was committed, if this is only after years and years?

11        A.   May I?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13        A.   We have to take into account a particular fact.  As far as I know

14     during the war the judiciary in Brcko was not functioning at all.  Brcko

15     was directly at the front line.  So the judiciary organs did not function

16     at all in Brcko.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine, but what did you then do in late

18     1992/early 1993 with this case where you suggest that you sent it to the

19     regular judicial authorities in Brcko and now you're explaining to us

20     that you didn't because they were not functioning?

21        A.   I completed the investigation, I think that you have that among

22     these documents that were submitted here as exhibits, and I returned the

23     case to the military prosecutor's office.  I don't know the exact date

24     but it can be found here and it was returned to the prosecutor's office.

25     I really don't know what the prosecutor's office did after I had

Page 28003

 1     completed the investigation.  You would have to ask the military

 2     prosecutor's office for that information.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So at least paragraph 12 of your statement is

 4     rather confusing because it doesn't say in any way that you sent the case

 5     to the military prosecutor's office.  It says:

 6             "The case was transferred due to the lack of jurisdiction to the

 7     regular judicial authorities in Brcko ..."

 8             Without saying that that happened years after that and without

 9     saying that at the time you sent the case to the military prosecutor.

10     You as a lawyer, you must have understood that this is not a very

11     accurate way of describing the situation.  Or could you explain why this

12     is accurate in view of what you told us just a minute ago?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps we could have D747 on the screen again,

14     paragraph 12 in both versions.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             Please have a look at paragraph 12, especially the first

17     paragraph -- or the first "linija," and tell me if you agree that it's

18     rather confusing if not even misleading.

19        A.   I agree, you're right.  A bit -- well, it's true, my statement is

20     a bit imprecise and clumsy, but I have explained what it was all about

21     and it can be checked.  After the investigation was completed I referred

22     the entire case along with all the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm at this moment more interested not in exactly

24     what happened at the time but why you give a confusing picture of what

25     happened instead of being accurate.  And this is -- I think we dealt with

Page 28004

 1     three previous occasions, this is number 4.  What happened on the 14th of

 2     July when you were interviewed?  How was that interview conducted?

 3        A.   Well, believe me, as it's been quite a while I was a bit

 4     imprecise in these statements of mine, but the essence is what I gave by

 5     way of a supplement to the statement, what I explained just now, and I

 6     don't see that this should now be taken as something that I had invented

 7     or added.  It's just the fact that so much time has elapsed, over 20

 8     years.  I didn't remember all the details.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you earlier blamed the translators, just to give

10     one example.  And Mr. Stojanovic told us a while ago that you had

11     together discussed, this week I take it, that the other paragraph that

12     the examples did not support your statement.  So therefore, to say it was

13     such a long time ago when the matter apparently was discussed this week

14     and it was established that the documents did not support -- at least not

15     fully support your statement, that is not explained by saying it was such

16     a long time ago.

17             Apart from that, my question was:  How the interview was

18     conducted in July of this year?  What happened?  How did it start?  Who

19     interviewed you?

20        A.   This man, Petrusic I think his name was, talked to me, and on the

21     first page his exact name is recorded.  I cannot remember.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you have answered the question about

23     Mr. Petrusic.  Where did the interview take place?

24        A.   In Bijeljina, in my office.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  How long did it last?

Page 28005

 1        A.   Well, about two hours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, were you asked questions anew or did you

 3     start -- did you take as a starting point your Karadzic statement?

 4        A.   Yes, that statement was the starting point.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Were you invited to make any corrections to

 6     that or were specific questions put to you in relation to that statement?

 7        A.   Well, we made some corrections then as we did when preparing this

 8     testimony during the proofing, but this really I missed it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not an answer to my question.  My question

10     was whether you read it and said:  Well, this should be corrected and

11     that should be corrected or whether specific questions were put to you on

12     matters you had not raised in -- by your own initiative?

13        A.   No, no.  The conversation did take place in the form of an

14     interview, but the basis was the statement I gave in Radovan Karadzic's

15     case and there were some mistakes that crept in like this one.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  But that one was not corrected?

17        A.   Unfortunately not.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

19        A.   I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- one other question:  All the documents you were

21     commenting on, were they shown to you again in July or were they not

22     shown to you again in July?

23        A.   No, they were not shown to me again.  I didn't have the

24     opportunity to look at them again.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So the statement was given and was signed without

Page 28006

 1     you having reviewed again the documents which you -- did you see them

 2     when you were preparing for the Karadzic case?

 3        A.   Some of them I did, yes, but not all of them.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you tell me that documents you are commenting on

 5     in your statement, as given in the Karadzic case, that you had not seen

 6     all the documents when you gave that statement for the Karadzic case?

 7        A.   I saw most of the documents when I testified before the Tribunal

 8     in the Karadzic case, especially for the cases that are referred to here.

 9     I did see those documents that were used as evidence --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters notes:  Could the witness

11     please repeat the names of the cases.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the names of the cases is

13     what the interpreters are asking.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Cvetkovic, Jurosevic, and

15     Rado Mihajlovic.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But these documents, as you said, were not

17     shown to you again in July of this year when you made this Mladic

18     statement?

19             Yes -- I saw you were nodding, but could you please say aloud

20     what your answer is to that question.  I asked you whether they were not

21     shown to you again in the Mladic case and your answer is?

22        A.   No, they were not.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

24             Have the questions by the Bench triggered the need for any

25     further questions?

Page 28007

 1             If not, Mr. Bojanovic, this concludes your testimony in this

 2     court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to

 3     The Hague and for having answered the questions that were put to you

 4     either by the parties or by the Bench and I wish you a safe return home

 5     again.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break.  Is the Defence ready to call

 9     its next witness after the break?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we are.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll resume at 20 minutes to 2.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

15             I do understand that the parties have agreed in trying to see

16     whether the testimony of the next witness can be concluded even today,

17     and the Chamber is willing to add 15 minutes but due to our programmes it

18     could not be much more than that.

19             MR. TRALDI:  I think Mr. Lukic and I will probably be able to

20     work within that.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.

22             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honour, I could introduce

23     Ms. Caroline Edgerton who will be assisting with the cross-examination in

24     this case.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Welcome to court, Ms. Edgerton.

Page 28008

 1                           [The witness entered court]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Kukobat.  Before you give

 3     evidence the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text

 4     is handed out to you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  DUSAN KUKOBAT

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Kukobat.

10             Mr. Kukobat, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find him

11     to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kukobat.

15        A.   Good day.

16        Q.   For the transcript, would you please tell us your first and last

17     name.

18        A.   Dusan Kukobat.

19        Q.   It was recorded as my question -- ah, very well.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 1D1715 on our screens, please.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kukobat, could you look at the right-hand

22     screen once you put your glasses on and could you tell us if you see a

23     document in front of you?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   I want to ask you this first regarding the document:  Did you

Page 28009

 1     provide the Defence of General Mladic with a statement?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   Do you see a signature on the screen?

 4        A.   I do.

 5        Q.   Do you recognise this signature?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Whose signature is it?

 8        A.   It's mine.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the last page of

10     the statement, please.

11        Q.   Do you see the signature on the screen?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

14        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

15        Q.   Is what you told the Defence of General Mladic correctly and

16     accurately represented in the statement?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And what is recorded in the statement, is it truthful and correct

19     according to your best recollection?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you give

22     the same answers?

23        A.   Yes, I would.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender this statement into the

25     evidence.

Page 28010

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1715 receives number D757,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I will not have any questions for this

 6     witness.  I will just read a very short statement summary.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you're confident that we would have

 8     sufficient time, otherwise you could even consider to read the summary

 9     where you have no other questions for a later stage, but if it is a short

10     one please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  It's very short.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

14             Dusan Kukobat will testify about the situation in the area of

15     Kljuc municipality after August 1992 -- actually, after 19th of August

16     1992, when he served as the Chief of Staff of the brigade.  He will

17     testify about the fighting with the Muslim-Croat units in the Sana River

18     valley, also at -- in Jajce war theatre.  General Kukobat will testify

19     about developments around Bihac safe zone and about attacks from Bihac

20     safe zone on Serb positions.  He will testify about actions of Croatian

21     army in Bosnia.

22             General Kukobat will confirm that Ratko Mladic always emphasised

23     that no crimes were to be committed against the enemy and that the

24     civilians and prisoners should be particularly protected.

25             And at the end General Kukobat will testify about his contacts

Page 28011

 1     with General Mladic.

 2             That was short summary.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Kukobat, no questions were asked, but of course we have read

 5     your statement so that is in evidence.  You'll now be cross-examined by

 6     Mr. Traldi.  You'll find him to your right, and Mr. Traldi is counsel for

 7     the Prosecution.

 8             Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

11        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have Exhibit P354, page 51 in the English and

14     the B/C/S transcript.

15        Q.   Sir, as this comes up it will be one of General Mladic's

16     notebooks from the war.  Sorry, it will take us just a minute to get the

17     right page.

18             So we see here General Mladic record a meeting with the Chief of

19     Staff of the army of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on the 12th of

20     August, 1992.  Turning to page 55 in both versions, we see that he

21     records that he had a conversation with officers from BH with ranks major

22     and colonel and that 66 officers were in attendance.  Now, you mention in

23     paragraph 4 of your statement a meeting with General Mladic and

24     General Tolimir in Belgrade.  What we see here refers to the meeting you

25     attended; correct?

Page 28012

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Below that it says:

 3             "Tomorrow at 1200 hours in the hall of the Guards Centre a

 4     meeting with officers ranked captain first class and lower."

 5             Were you aware that a meeting with lower-ranking officers was

 6     held on the next day?

 7        A.   No, I wasn't.

 8        Q.   What is the guards centre building?

 9        A.   The meeting was not held at the guards centre building but in the

10     conference hall or the meeting room at the army command of that military

11     district at the time.

12        Q.   And that's a Yugoslav army command; right?

13        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army.

14        Q.   How did you hear about this meeting?

15        A.   I was informed by my superior.  I'm not sure, but I received the

16     notification along the line of command.  I'm not quite sure how I got the

17     invitation, but I did find out about the meeting.  It's been a long time

18     ago.  I cannot recall that now.

19        Q.   Do you recall who your superior was at the time?

20        A.   At the time I was the brigade Chief of Staff and the -- my

21     superior was the commander of the brigade.

22        Q.   Do you recall his name?

23        A.   I think that his name was Colonel Ratko Markovic.

24        Q.   Did General Mladic describe the VRS's goals at this meeting?

25        A.   Yes, he presented the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina and

Page 28013

 1     explained the objectives of the fight of the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   When you say he explained the objectives, did he explain

 3     particular territories that the VRS was trying to achieve control over?

 4        A.   No, this was not discussed at that meeting.

 5        Q.   So what objectives did he identify, if you recall?

 6        A.   I cannot remember exactly, but I think it was the protection of

 7     the Serbian people in territories where they were located, protection of

 8     property.  That is in brief what I can recall now of what was discussed

 9     at that meeting.

10        Q.   When you went to this meeting, you were a VJ officer and received

11     your salary from the Yugoslav army; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   During your service in the VRS in Bosnia, did you continue to

14     receive your salary from the VJ?

15        A.   Yes, except for a short period of time.

16        Q.   And specifically did you receive it through the

17     30th Personnel Centre?

18        A.   Yes, the 30th Personnel Centre.

19        Q.   Sir, I want to turn now to some brief questions about your time

20     in Kljuc.  You became the 17th Light Infantry Brigade's Chief of Staff

21     when you first arrived in Kljuc; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, it doesn't say this in your statement but you only remained

24     in Kljuc for a few months; right?

25        A.   Yes, until -- until mid-December 1992 I stayed at my post in that

Page 28014

 1     brigade, yes.

 2        Q.   That's when you became a brigade commander in Petrovac; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So I'm going to ask now about the structure of the 17th Brigade

 5     during your time in Kljuc.  Your brigade was under the command of the

 6     2nd Krajina Corps; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The brigade commander was Drago Samardzija?

 9        A.   Yes, Samardzija was the brigade commander at that time.

10        Q.   As Chief of Staff you served as his deputy?

11        A.   I did.

12        Q.   And your brigade command would send daily reports to the corps

13     command; right?

14        A.   At the time that I was the Chief of Staff of the brigade, the

15     brigade was resubordinated to the 1st Krajina Corps.  It was actually

16     part of the 30th Division and it was carrying out its assignment within

17     the 30th Division of the 1st Krajina Corps and of course it received

18     orders and received -- and sent reports to the division, and from time to

19     time the corps command also wanted to be informed about the activities of

20     the brigade at the front.

21        Q.   How did the brigade staff compile information to include in those

22     reports?

23        A.   We had reports from the subordinate commanders of the units, of

24     battalions, and of other subordinated units.

25        Q.   When you became Chief of Staff, Bosko Lukic who had been the

Page 28015

 1     Chief of Staff until you arrived became the assistant commander for

 2     logistics; right?

 3        A.   I was told that he would be appointed logistics assistant

 4     commander but this was never put into practice.  I don't know if there

 5     was a document on that appointment; however, I never met Mr. Lukic and

 6     another officer was carrying out the logistics officer duties.  Then a

 7     third officer was appointed to the post after a certain period of time.

 8     So Major Lukic did not appear in the brigade.  I don't know why not, what

 9     were the reasons that he did not.

10        Q.   Looking at the battalions of your brigade, the 1st Battalion was

11     stationed in Sitnica; right?  Are you having troubled receiving

12     interpretation?

13        A.   The interpreter is not sure about the name of the location that

14     you mentioned.

15        Q.   The 1st Battalion was in Sitnica, S-i-t-n-i-c-a; correct?

16        A.   The battalions were along the front line facing Jajce.  They were

17     not in inhabited places.  They were deployed according to the combat

18     disposition at the time that I assumed the post of Chief of Staff of the

19     brigade.

20        Q.   The 1st Battalion's commander was Branko Ribic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   The 2nd Battalion's commander was Jovo Kevac?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mr. Ribic's deputy was Marko Adamovic; right?

25        A.   No.  Marko Adamovic was the assistant commander for morale and

Page 28016

 1     legal and religious affairs at the time that I assumed the post of Chief

 2     of Staff.

 3        Q.   Is that in the brigade?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Who commanded the 3rd Battalion?

 6        A.   Brane Volas.  It's just that I'm not sure right now who was in

 7     command of the 1st, of the 2nd, and the 3rd Battalion, but the officers

 8     were the command -- in command of the battalions that we just referred

 9     to.

10        Q.   Sir, when you arrived in Kljuc you were aware many of the Muslims

11     had already left; right?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you become aware of that shortly after you arrived?

14        A.   I didn't know anything about those events because I reported for

15     duty in the field -- actually, at the front line that was outside of the

16     inhabited places.  So I did not spend any time in Kljuc except for the

17     time that I passed through Kljuc in order to report to the brigade

18     command.

19        Q.   Did Kljuc remain within your area of responsibility?

20        A.   The area of responsibility was the zone at the front.  Kljuc was

21     not part of the brigade's area of responsibility during the time that I

22     was at the post of Chief of Staff.

23        Q.   So you have in your evidence no information about what was

24     happening there at the time at all, happening in Kljuc?

25        A.   I didn't have any information at the time and it was not

Page 28017

 1     discussed at any time.  The only thing I heard after the war from the

 2     media is what we all know anyway about the events, about what was

 3     happening or not happening.  I really cannot talk about that.  I was not

 4     an eye-witness to those events.

 5        Q.   Several members of the brigade have been convicted or charged

 6     since the war for what happened in Kljuc, right, that's one of the things

 7     you've heard?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   That includes your commander, Drago Samardzija, who's currently

10     under indictment?

11        A.   I am aware of that, yes.

12        Q.   It includes Bosko Lukic and Marko Adamovic who were recently

13     convicted of war crimes in Bosnia?

14        A.   I also am aware of that.

15        Q.   And it also includes Marko Samardzija, a company commander in the

16     2nd Battalion who was convicted in Bosnia?

17        A.   I don't know Marko Samardzija and I don't know anything about

18     that.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

20     witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

22             Witness, since the Defence has no further questions for you

23     either and the Chamber has no questions for you, this concludes your

24     testimony in this court.  As I said before, it was not only those

25     questions but also the statement you've given to the Defence which is now

Page 28018

 1     evidence before this Court.  I'd like to thank you very much and we are

 2     quite happy that you do not have to stay over the weekend and that you

 3     can travel home and we wish you a safe return home again.  You may follow

 4     the usher.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber appreciates the way in which the parties

 8     have dealt with the way of examination of this witness, which allowed him

 9     to return home before the weekend.  We have six minutes left, but if

10     there are no specific matters to be raised then we'll adjourn early.  We

11     adjourn for the day and we'll resume Monday, the 10th of November, in

12     this same courtroom I at 9.30 in the morning.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.08 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

15                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.