1 Monday, 10 November 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
12 MR. IVETIC: We are, Your Honours, and it would be
13 Mr. Tomislav Puhalac.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness be escorted into the
16 Meanwhile I use the time to deal with some matters. The first is
17 associated exhibit D534 associated to the statement of Stevan Veljovic.
18 During the testimony of Stevan Veljovic document D534 was MFI'd
19 pending a verification of its translation. The Defence has contacted
20 CLSS and received a version of the translation identical to the one
21 already in e-court. The Chamber hereby admits D534 into evidence.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Puhalac. Before you give
24 evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the text
25 of which is now handed out to you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: TOMISLAV PUHALAC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Puhalac. Please be seated.
6 Mr. Puhalac, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic, you'll
7 find him to your left. Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of
8 Mr. Mladic.
9 You may proceed.
10 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
11 Examination by Mr. Ivetic:
12 Q. Good day, sir. Can I ask you to please first state your full
13 name for the record.
14 A. Tomislav Puhalac.
15 MR. IVETIC: I would now like to take a look at 1D4400 in
17 Q. Now, sir, while we have that on the screen this is a written
18 statement from the Karadzic trial. I would like to first ask you if you
19 recall giving this statement to the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic?
20 A. I do.
21 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to the last page of the document.
22 Q. There is a signature on this page. Can you tell us whose
23 signature that is?
24 A. Mine.
25 Q. After signing this statement in the Karadzic trial, did you have
1 a chance last week to read the same with me to verify if everything is
2 correctly recorded therein?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Now, if we can turn to paragraph 2 of your statement which is to
5 be found on the first page in both versions. In the second paragraph,
6 sir, do you have any corrections in relation to the location names
8 A. I do. Sokolac should not read Sokoldju [phoen] but
9 Sokolu [phoen] with an L. It should read in Sokolac.
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: In English it makes no
13 MR. IVETIC:
14 Q. And, sir, I note that the Serb states the second location as
15 being Lukavica, whereas the English says Lukavac. Could you please tell
16 us which of these names is correct for the location of the Central
17 National Bureau?
18 A. The correct is Lukavica. Lukavac is a different place in
19 Central Bosnia.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where's the Sokolac in paragraph 2 anyway?
22 MR. IVETIC: It's not it's Sokoc in English, S-o-k-o-c, that's
23 the error that's been corrected.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The fourth line from the bottom of paragraph 2.
25 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to page 6 in English and page 3
1 in the Serbian.
2 Q. In the upper third of paragraph 12 I see here listed an
3 individual who is said to be from Serbia that is reflected as being in
4 the English "Dzindzic," whereas the Serb has the same individual being
5 called "Dzidic," and I'd like to ask you which is the correct
6 identification of the individual brought into the MUP from Serbia?
7 A. Dzidic.
8 Q. And just to clarify, what was his ethnicity? Could you tell us
9 what was the ethnicity of this individual with a last name Dzidic from
11 A. Bosniak.
12 MR. IVETIC: And if we could turn to page 8 in the English and
13 page 4 in the Serbian.
14 Q. At the bottom of paragraph 16, I again see the word Sokoc,
15 S-o-k-o-c, as a place name. Does this also need to be corrected as
16 you've already identified?
17 A. Yes, it's Sokolac.
18 Q. Now, sir, apart from these few corrections that we have gone
19 through this morning, do you stand by the rest of your written statement
20 as being accurate?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And insofar as you have taken the solemn declaration today, if I
23 were to ask you the same questions today would your answers be the same
24 as in the statement and would they be truthful?
25 A. They would.
1 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender the document 1D0440 as
2 the next public exhibit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4400 receives number D758,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
8 MR. IVETIC: Thank you.
9 I have a short summary to read for the public, and it begins as
11 The witness joined the SDB, state security department, of the
12 SRBiH in 1977 and thereafter worked in various functions of that state
13 department. At the outbreak of the war, he was in the department for the
14 prevention of drug abuse. From the beginning of the war until 2005, he
15 worked in the CNB, the Central National Bureau of the Republic of Srpska.
16 Per the witness, the Croat HDZ and Muslim SDA coalition within
17 the BiH MUP did everything they could to discriminate against Serb
18 members and to prevent their involvement in the decision-making process
19 and sensitive work of the SDB and the MUP.
20 This same coalition created a space for the formation of
21 paramilitary units in the MUP, including criminal armed formations. The
22 Muslim state leadership then organised the arming of paramilitary and
23 para-state organs with illegal weapons.
24 The BiH MUP began mobilising and training reserve members who
25 were loyal to the SDA, while notorious criminals were given MUP
1 credentials and these persons began harassing Serb members of the SDB.
2 The witness himself was stopped in Bistrik by heavily armed criminals
3 wearing green berets who took away his official pistol and threatened to
4 kill him in front of his family. When he reported this to the Sarajevo
5 CJB, they refused to undertake any measures.
6 Employment of Serbs in the BiH SDB was discontinued in early
7 April 1992 and they were expelled from Sarajevo, their apartments broken
8 into and plundered, and those that stayed in Sarajevo tortured or killed.
9 And that completes the summary and I'd like to move on now to
10 some additional questions I have.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do.
12 MR. IVETIC:
13 Q. Sir, I'd like to take a look at paragraph 4 of your statement
14 which will be found on page 1 in the Serb and page 2 in the English
15 versions. Here in this paragraph you identify a Mr. Branko Kvesic, a
16 Croat who became head of the SDB. Did he remain in that position the
17 entire duration of the war?
18 A. No, in the beginning of the war he left Sarajevo and together
19 with some other staff he went to Mostar.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is he Branko or Brane?
21 MR. IVETIC:
22 Q. Is he Branko or Brane?
23 A. I'm not sure. I believe he was Branko Kvesic.
24 Q. Okay. Now if we can look at paragraph 7 of your statement which
25 is on page 3 in the English and page 2 in the Serb, here you make
1 reference to "verified information" on the establishment of paramilitary
2 and parastate organisation by the Bosnian Muslim state leadership. Can
3 you be more precise as to what type of verified information you are
4 relying upon here?
5 A. In the period of the end of 1991 and early 1992, I was relying on
6 my personal observations and those of my colleagues.
7 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you, given your position within
8 the Serb national security service, did your service ever have an office
9 or an officer in Trnovo during 1992?
10 A. No, we did not have an organised section or a representative in
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. IVETIC: I'd like to now call up Exhibit P6889 in e-court.
14 Q. Now, sir -- I'll wait for the English - this document on its face
15 says that it is a report and -- on the activities and operation of the
16 Trnovo SDS municipal board from the period of 01 January to 31st May
17 1992. Now, first looking at the first page of the report and the header,
18 can you tell us if this follows the standard format for a report that you
19 would expect from your service, your organisation ?
20 A. No, this is not a document from our service, the one that I
21 worked in.
22 MR. IVETIC: And if we can look at the last page in both
24 Q. The report, the one signed, has at the bottom the author listed
25 in the Serbian as Odjeljenje SDB Trnovo. What comment can you make about
1 this formulation of the entity that is stated as being the author of this
3 A. That entity did not exist and this is not a document of any
4 section of the SDB Trnovo. I mean, considering that Trnovo belonged to
5 the Sarajevo centre where I worked, it's not a document from that
7 Q. What acronym was used for your organisation during 1992?
8 A. Well, beginning with April it was SNB, the national security
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, one more thing to note. I read the
12 Serbian title because the English translation has "State Security
13 Service," whereas the Serb original has the acronym "SDB." So I would
14 bring that to Your Honour's attention. I don't know whether we need to
15 have this document revised to have the translation reflect the original
16 or not, but I think it's pretty apparent on the face of the document the
17 acronym. And --
18 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that the acronym is important because
19 apparently, as the witness told us, the acronym changed?
20 MR. IVETIC: That's correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you announced this as being an exhibit,
22 but it is a document MFI'd, isn't it, that -- from your --
23 MR. IVETIC: Oh, I apologise.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- questions. I take it that that's what was on
25 your mind when you asked the questions.
1 MR. IVETIC: That's correct. That was on my mind. I apologise
2 if I misspoke. I did not have the full notation of the document.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is a document tendered by the Prosecution.
4 You've heard the issue about the translation. Could you please
5 take care that acronym and full text will be verified whether there's any
6 cause of any problem.
7 I do know, however, Mr. Ivetic, that sometimes explanations are
8 not always welcomed by the Defence if it is about translations. But
9 we'll find a solution for it.
10 MR. IVETIC: I appreciate that, Your Honours. Thank you.
11 I'd like to now go to another document, 65 ter number 1D04409.
12 Q. And when that comes up, sir, my first question to you will be to
13 ask if this is a document that you are familiar with. And now that we
14 have that on the screen that is what I would ask you: Is this a document
15 that you are familiar with?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And the -- well, let me ask you this way: How is this
18 information in -- or how is this document related to the information
19 contained in paragraph 7 of your statement?
20 A. Well, it corroborates my assertion because this document came to
21 the headquarters of the service and it was done by my colleagues.
22 Q. And is this individual giving the statement the same person
23 that's identified in paragraph number 7?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you've said that your colleagues took the statement. Are you
1 familiar with how the statement was obtained from this individual?
2 A. Well, at the time when he was stopped an interview was made and
3 this information was collected.
4 MR. IVETIC: And if we can turn to page 4 of the original.
5 Q. It appears to be a handwritten version giving the same text in
6 Serbian, and I'd like to ask you: Do you know how the handwritten copy
7 came about in relation to the taking of the statement from this
9 A. The person wrote it.
10 Q. When you say "the person," could you please -- are you talking
11 about your colleagues or the individual identified in the statement?
12 A. I assume -- actually, I know and I saw it at the time that this
13 draft was handed over. It was done by the person in question, the person
14 that is mentioned in my statement.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document into
17 evidence at this time as the next available exhibit number.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution
19 objects that there hasn't been adequate foundation laid for this
20 document. If you look at the document itself, it lacks any stamp or
21 official markation and has no signature and the witness's evidence does
22 not lay a sufficient foundation otherwise.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Paragraph 7 of the witness's statement identifies a
25 confession by a named individual. I have presented it to the witness and
1 he has identified personal knowledge of this document and it being the
2 basis for his evidence in paragraph 7. So I think that the foundation
3 has been established. I -- I mean, the Prosecution is correct that there
4 is no signature and there is no heading, but that doesn't affect the
5 admission of the document. It would go towards weight or other
7 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, the witness's evidence is that he
8 is familiar with the document, that it was done by his colleagues, and
9 that the interview was made and the information was collected. He says
10 that the person wrote it and he saw the document. This is not any
11 information about the making of the document, it's not information about
12 how the interview was conducted, how it was collected. It's -- it's
13 visually seeing the document. It doesn't really provide much more
14 information about the document itself.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will consider the admission of this
16 document. Meanwhile, it will be MFI'd.
17 Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4409 receives number D759,
19 Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D759 is marked for identification.
21 Mr. Ivetic, if you introduce again a document like this one, it
22 took me a while to find out what you were talking about because you asked
23 the witness whether he was familiar with it, you apparently are familiar
24 with it, but what it was, it took me at least a couple of minutes to --
25 MR. IVETIC: I apologise.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- quickly glancing through it what it was.
2 Therefore, I want to re-read also your questions and the answers when put
3 at the time when I was still figuring out what I was looking at.
4 MR. IVETIC: That's fair, Your Honour, I have no problem with
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 JUDGE MOLOTO: I just wanted to say maybe we might try to check
9 the translation here because from my limited observation of what's
10 happening here, the handwritten statement says 19th March 1956 - if I'm
11 reading that correctly - the typewritten line says 1953 as the date of
12 birth. So I'm not quite sure whether there may or may not be other
13 mistakes or differences between the statements.
14 MR. IVETIC: That is correct, Your Honour. So perhaps it is best
15 then to submit the handwritten one for translation by CLSS or
16 verification of the translation by CLSS.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic, where does the document originate from?
18 That's often an important --
19 MR. IVETIC: It was an exhibit in the Karadzic proceedings used
20 with this witness, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but where does it come from?
22 MR. IVETIC: That I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Are you serious in saying that you are relying on
24 a -- such an underlying document, a document where you could guess that
25 the Prosecution may have further questions on its origin, and that you
1 say: Well, it's from the Karadzic Defence. You have not verified, you
2 have not asked any further questions.
3 MR. IVETIC: Well, when it's authenticated from by a witness from
4 the service in two trials, I believe I am justified in relying upon that
5 authentication, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you can do whatever you want of course. The
7 only thing I'm saying to you is that if there is a document which, from
8 its appearance and where the witness is not -- well, authenticated,
9 he's -- he says something about it but some of the questions put by
10 Ms. MacGregor, of course, are questions you would expect. And I would
11 have foreseen that rather than to explain that I would rely on what was
12 done in another case.
13 But if you have any further information on it, the Chamber would
14 certainly consider that as well once shared with the Prosecution in its
15 decision on admission or nonadmission.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. IVETIC: And, again, Your Honours, paragraph 7 of the
18 witness's statement details the taking of this statement. So that
19 is its -- that would be the -- all I can offer at this moment in terms of
20 additional information. If I may proceed, I do have a few other
21 questions --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just re-reading paragraph 7 to see whether...
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- I may have a different understanding of
25 what details are. Let's proceed -- but Judge Fluegge --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just wanted to put a question to the witness.
2 Sir, did you ever meet Senad Memic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who stopped him and conducted an interview with
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police forces of the Ilidza
7 police station and the interview was conducted by members of the national
8 security service.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you give me a name?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. There are
11 names of people who worked there, but I don't know who specifically
12 drafted the document.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.
15 MR. IVETIC:
16 Q. Sir, my last category of questions for you will be to ask if your
17 agency had information about the activities of the BiH MUP in forming the
18 Seve unit?
19 A. Yes, we had information that such a unit had been formed and was
20 operating illegally.
21 Q. Who, according to your information, in the BiH MUP was behind the
22 formation and operation of the Seve unit?
23 A. The AID top officials.
24 Q. The transcript does not reflect the organisation. Could you
25 please spell out the acronyms of the organisation just so that we're
1 clear as to who you are referencing.
2 A. AID.
3 Q. Okay. And you identified that they were operating illegally.
4 What sorts of illegal activities was the Seve unit involved in?
5 A. According to our information they were supposed to incite unrest
6 and destabilise the situation.
7 Q. And do you have any specifics of how they were trying to incite
8 unrest and destabilise the situation?
9 A. There is one case that I mentioned in my statement, how two
10 members of the unit were killed, attempting to cause unrest in
11 Montenegro. They were killed due to unprofessional handling, and then
12 later their service IDs were found on them.
13 Q. Okay. And have I exhausted your recollection of other specifics
14 of the activities of the Seve unit?
15 A. Information came from a number of sections that the unit was
16 operating, and then later the information was confirmed in some newspaper
17 articles as well as by assertions and the recollection of some persons of
18 Muslim ethnicity who were in Sarajevo at the time. A lot of material on
19 this is being published in the most recent period, and you can read
20 information about this in statements that are given to the press by
21 people in Sarajevo.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.
23 MR. IVETIC: I have no further questions at this time,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.
1 Mr. Ivetic, before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to
2 cross-examine the witness, if the statement, the confession, was made
3 after a truckload of -- or at least a truck with a lot of weapons in it
4 was seized, there must be more material, isn't it, that records the --
5 this event, I mean apart from an isolated statement and confession?
6 It's -- certainly it could well assist in determining the authenticity
7 and the background of this document if such an event would have been
8 traced, dates known, how much weaponry. That would give a background to
9 this document which would certainly help, perhaps, in better establishing
10 its authenticity. So it's just a suggestion.
11 And I'm also looking at the Prosecution in this respect. It
12 would assist the Chamber if we would know more about the police action
13 taken which resulted in this document.
14 Ms. MacGregor, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
15 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour. I am ready. I'm going
16 to bring up my podium. But as I do that, if I can ask the court officer
17 to show the exhibit marked MFI'd as 6889.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, Mr. Puhalac, you'll be cross-examined by
19 Ms. MacGregor. You find her to your right. Ms. MacGregor is counsel for
20 the Prosecution.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Puhalac. I've asked the Court to show again a
23 document that Mr. Ivetic asked you about. You recognise the document on
24 the screen in front of you?
25 A. No, I didn't have the opportunity to see the document before. If
1 you're thinking about the earlier period.
2 Q. You were shown this document during your preparation for your
3 testimony today by the Defence counsel; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Other than counsel showing you this document during that
6 preparation, you've never seen this document before; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. I did not see it before.
8 Q. You have no personal knowledge about the creation of this
9 document; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. MacGREGOR: I no longer need the document on the screen.
13 Q. Now just for the record, you testified as a Defence witness in
14 the Karadzic trial in March 2013; is that right?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. And according to your statement, which is now in evidence, you
17 were not a member of any political party during the war but you joined
18 the SDS in 2008; is that right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And not only are you a member, but in November 2012 you were
21 elected as a member -- you were elected to the position of president of
22 the Rogatica municipality for the SDS; is that right?
23 A. No, I was not elected as president of the SDS but as the head of
24 the municipality, as a candidate of several parties. Another person was
25 at the head of the SDS. I was just a member of the SDS.
1 Q. What's your current position within the municipality?
2 A. The chief of the or the head of the municipality.
3 Q. And still as a member of the SDS; is that correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Thank you. I want to briefly turn to your time in Sarajevo at
6 the beginning of the war. Now, you left Sarajevo with your family on
7 April 1st, 1992; is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. According to your statement at paragraph 15, for the record,
10 that's Exhibit D758, according to that paragraph after the 1st of April
11 you tried on several occasions to return to your MUP office in Sarajevo.
12 Your statement refers to an incident in Vraca where Serb police were
13 fired on when they tried to enter the school of internal affairs
14 building. So that incident you're describing at Vraca, that occurred on
15 April 4th; is that right?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. In the Karadzic trial you testified:
18 "After what happened on the 4th of April at Vraca, I stopped
19 trying to go back to the BH MUP ..."
20 Sir, is it correct that as of 4 April 1992, you were no longer in
21 Sarajevo but in Sokolac?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And from that date until the end of the war, you were never back
24 in Bosnian-held Sarajevo?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And all the evidence that you've provided about events in
2 Sarajevo after the 4th of April is based on information that you received
3 from others; is that right?
4 A. For the period up to April I'm speaking about personal
5 observations, but from April onwards, since I was working in a service
6 that was based in the eastern part of Sarajevo, in the building of the
7 Energoinvest company to be more precise, I am testifying about assertions
8 and information that came from people who were leaving Sarajevo as well
9 as based on other information such as radio communications and so on.
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have MFI D759.
11 Q. Sir, I'm bringing back to the screen the statement of Mr. Memic
12 that you discussed during your direct examination.
13 JUDGE MOLOTO: D759?
14 MS. MacGREGOR: D759 I believe. Yes. The document -- the
15 correct document that I'm referring to is on the screen.
16 Q. Sir, you were not in Sarajevo, as we've just established, on
17 April 14th, 1992; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, correct.
19 Q. And you didn't see Mr. Memic make this statement; is that
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. You don't know where he was when he provided this statement; is
23 that correct?
24 A. I assume that it was at the Ilidza police station.
25 Q. And you don't know how long he'd been detained before providing
1 this statement; is that correct?
2 A. From what I can remember, he was not in custody. The interview
3 was conducted in agreement between the Serbian and the Bosniak side.
4 Q. When you testified in the Karadzic trial, you did not include
5 knowledge about the handwritten version of this document, which today you
6 claimed was drafted by Mr. Memic; is that correct?
7 A. I wasn't asked about it. And now I see the handwritten
8 version ...
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
10 of what he said.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat the last portion of your answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have the handwritten
13 version in front of me at the time, and from what I can remember I think
14 that that is that version in handwriting.
15 MS. MacGREGOR:
16 Q. Today in a response to a question from Judge Fluegge, you stated
17 that you didn't know who drafted the document, the handwritten
18 document -- excuse me, that you didn't know who drafted the document,
19 that's at page 14 of the temporary transcript from today. So you don't
20 know who wrote this document? You don't know based on your own personal
21 knowledge who wrote this document; is that correct?
22 A. The statement came to the service where I was via our official
23 department. The official department sent it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ivetic.
25 MR. IVETIC: Counsel's question without the Karadzic transcript
1 misstates the Karadzic proceedings, where as transcript page 35097 the
2 question was asked:
3 "Did you see this version in handwriting at the time?"
4 And the answer was:
6 So it's incorrect that he did not demonstrate knowledge of a
7 handwritten version existing in the Karadzic proceedings.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor.
9 MS. MacGREGOR: My question was about who had written the
10 handwritten version.
11 MR. IVETIC: No it was not. It was -- it was --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- well, could you -- exact line number.
13 MR. IVETIC: I'll give you the exact line number. It's page 19,
14 line number 24 through 25:
15 "When you testified in the Karadzic trial, you did not include
16 knowledge of the handwritten version of this document..."
17 MS. MacGREGOR: My apologies, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes. And the last part of the question was at
19 least was ambiguous.
20 Mr. Ivetic, thank you for assisting.
21 MS. MacGREGOR:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, as Mr. Ivetic has pointed out, you did testify
23 that you had seen the handwritten version of this statement and you've
24 just told us today that you were not asked about the handwritten version
25 of the statement when you testified in the Karadzic trial. My underlying
1 question is: Do you have personal knowledge about who wrote the
2 handwritten version of the statement?
3 A. Yes, colleagues from Ilidza sent a statement in written form, and
4 I believe that the statement was written by the man with whom the
5 interview was conducted. In practice it was never the case that
6 something would happen different than what I have just said.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor, could I ask you a question which
8 is -- had you seen this -- who brought this document to your attention
9 during the -- when you were interviewed by the Karadzic Defence? Did you
10 bring it yourself? Or did they present it to you? Do you remember?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They presented it to me, from what
12 I can remember.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now -- and you were familiar with that
14 document already when they gave it to you during this interview?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was.
16 JUDGE ORIE: What's your recollection from when you saw it for
17 the first time? When did you see it for the first time?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it was drafted, when it came
19 to Pale.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. How did it come to Pale?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By regular mail, regular
22 circulation. We had a section in Ilidza, not just in Ilidza. There were
23 a number of organisational units in the Sarajevo centre area and all the
24 data poured into one point. That's how the service was organised.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And do you have a recollection whether --
1 well, let's say like whether you opened the envelope or whether it was a
2 Sunday? Do you have any recollection about this document, seeing this
3 document for the first time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was interesting.
5 That's why I remember. It was notable because of the large quantity of
6 weapons and the way they were obtained. I don't think that I was the one
7 who opened the envelope; that wasn't my job. But we did analyse the
8 document, we reviewed it, so I remember well that it arrived in this
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was the follow-up with Mr. Senad Memic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the interview, as far as I
12 can remember, he went home.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Is --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if a criminal report
15 was issued or not, but this document has to be somewhere in the service.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask you was it common that if someone
17 was arrested carrying weapons in a truck telling during an interview that
18 he had by the thousands delivered such weapons that you would just say
19 after the interview: Thank you very much. Please go home, go to your
20 family. That is -- was that common practice or ... ?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't common practice. But
22 in view of the fact that this was a turbulent, unstable period and that
23 the clashes were just starting, such concessions were made in agreement
24 between the leadership of the sides. So it's my opinion that somebody
25 talked at a higher level or at the top MUP level or at the top political
1 level, and that is why no decision was made to detain the person or hold
2 them further. From what I can remember, probably some important people
3 discussed the issue and the decision was made not to initiate further
4 proceedings as a gesture, as a gesture --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but may I ask you to -- not to tell us what you
6 think may have happened but -- and happily enough you are clear on that.
7 But this Chamber is primarily interested in facts rather than in
8 opinions. But I asked you whether it was common and you say under those
9 circumstances such agreements were made.
10 The reason why I'm asking you this is the following: You would
11 be -- you would like to know to whom these weapons were delivered so as
12 to be able to -- well, to do whatever, to limit the damage caused by it.
13 But that -- such follow-up interviews did not take place? If you know;
14 if you don't know, tell us.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the man was not held
16 for a long time. He was released. And I know it was a gesture of
17 goodwill to avoid deepening the conflict. Every effort was made to avoid
18 conflict and to try to calm the situation down despite such actions.
19 That's a move made by the Serbian side in order to defuse tensions rather
20 than deepen conflict.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You said he was not detained for a long time. Do
22 you know when he was arrested and even if not for a long time for how
23 long he was detained?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. He was brought into
25 custody, if I remember well, for 24 hours maximum. That was the legal
1 limit at the time. That's before the decision was made to hold somebody.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do you know exactly the day when he was
3 arrested or the date?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. If I hadn't seen the
5 date on the document I wouldn't have been able to remember.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but now having seen the date on the document,
7 do you now remember?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot claim anything with
9 certainty. It would be presumptuous of me to say I remember the date.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. MacGregor -- or Judge Moloto.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: I see the time. Maybe we can do this after the
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had forgotten about the time when I did put
14 questions to the witness which I should not have forgotten about.
15 We take a break.
16 Witness, would you please follow the usher. We'd like to see you
17 back in 20 minutes.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness will have missed that information
20 because he had taken his earphones off already but he'll learn about it.
21 We'll take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness I'll briefly
25 deal with another matter which is about D676 MFI'd.
1 During the testimony of Branko Davidovic, document D676 was MFI'd
2 pending an updated translation. Both parties have since agreed upon the
3 updated version of the translation which is Doc ID 1D09-3853, and the
4 Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach the updated translation
5 to D676 and admits D676 into evidence.
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge was about to -- Judge Moloto was about
8 to ask a question.
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Puhalac, when this confession was sent to your
10 office from Sarajevo, did it come under cover of a covering letter?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.
12 JUDGE MOLOTO: Are you -- did you have sight of that letter?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the practice. Not a
14 single document arrived without a letter.
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: And is it possible to have access to that letter,
16 for the Court to have a look at it?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's possible. It might be
18 in the service. I don't have it.
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: You were not given this when you were given this
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
22 JUDGE MOLOTO: Because without that covering letter it's not easy
23 to determine where this letter came -- where this document came from?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.
25 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm not saying I know.
2 JUDGE MOLOTO: You're not saying you know what?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I know it arrived from where I
4 said, but it should have an accompanying document and it did exist.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, this last answer of yours confuses me. You
6 did say yes there was a covering letter; now you say there should have
7 been one, suggesting that you are assuming that there was one.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was a cover letter. That
9 was the practice and all the documents arrived with a cover letter.
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, again, Mr. Puhalac, you're telling me of
11 practice. I'm asking you if you did see the letter that accompanied this
12 specific document?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: But you say you don't -- you don't have access to
15 it right now?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.
17 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. I have no further questions.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Can I please have the witness's statement, D758, and if we can
20 look at paragraph 3 of his statement.
21 Q. Mr. Puhalac, I've asked the court officer to show you on the
22 screen the statement, paragraph 3 of your statement. I'd like to draw
23 your attention to the following sentence that starts the paragraph.
24 "Considering that I was a member of the State Security Service
25 for many years and was professionally involved in collecting political
1 and security-related information, I can say that I am competent to give
2 you a quality statement regarding events in the Sarajevo-Romanija area
3 that occurred just before the war and at the beginning of the war."
4 In the next paragraph of your statement, paragraph 4, that's on
5 the next page in the English, and also in paragraphs 7 and 11, which I
6 don't need to be displayed on the screen, you give evidence about
7 trafficking of weapons to Muslim forces in Sarajevo in the pre-war
8 period. And you've talked today about the same topic with regard to
9 Mr. Memic's statement. So you must have also known then, given your
10 position at the time in pre-war Sarajevo, that Serbs in Sarajevo were
11 also being armed in that same period, including by the police. Did you
12 know that?
13 A. No, I didn't know that. At that time I lived in Sarajevo and I'm
14 only talking here about things I knew.
15 MS. MacGREGOR: Can I please have document P3792.
16 Q. I'm calling up a document that you were shown during your
17 Karadzic testimony. It's a report to the Ministry of Internal Affairs by
18 Tihomir Glavas chief of the public security station in Ilidza, and the
19 report is dated 20 September 1993.
20 Now as we wait for that to come up, you're familiar with
21 Mr. Glavas; is that correct? Sir, do you know who Mr. Glavas is?
22 A. I met him during the war. I don't know exactly in which period,
23 but it was when he became commander of the police station at Ilidza.
24 Q. And you're also familiar with Tomo Kovac, commander of the Ilidza
25 police station?
1 A. Tomo Kovac I knew before the war.
2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can please have page 2 in both versions of
3 the document, focusing on the second full paragraph.
4 Q. So in this paragraph Mr. Glavas discusses meetings organised by
5 Tomislav Kovac in the beginning of 1991. Reading from the document:
6 "Aside from the obligation that Serbs gather up and prepare for
7 war through these meetings that took place in Dobrinja, Ilidza, and
8 Blazuj, it was also agreed that intense activity should be undertaken to
9 arm citizens of Serbian nationality. Armament was transported from Ravna
10 Romanija, Pale, Sokolac, Kalinovik, the village of Nedavici, the village
11 of Tosici, Hadzici, Jusuf Dzonlagic barracks, Lukavica, and Nedzarici" --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think you've forgotten Trnovo.
13 MS. MacGREGOR:
14 Q. -- "and Trnovo."
15 MS. MacGREGOR: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Puhalac, according to your own words you are competent
17 to give a quality statement about events in pre-war Sarajevo, but do you
18 continue to claim that you had no knowledge in 1991 and into 1992 that
19 Serb police were involved in arming ethnic Serbs in Sarajevo?
20 A. This looks absolutely unbelievable to me that in 1991 something
21 like this could have been happening. I think somebody was trying to make
22 themselves look important. I don't know to whom this document was sent,
23 but it looks like bragging.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you were asked whether you have any
25 knowledge about it. You say "no." There's no need to comment on what
1 may have led the author of this document to write what he wrote.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: We can pull the document off the screen.
4 Q. Now, your statement --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one thing --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know anything about
8 JUDGE ORIE: You said you couldn't imagine that this happened in
9 1991. Now, the document also describes events happening in 1992,
10 including distribution of arms to Serbian people. Would you be less
11 surprised that the MUP would have been involved in such activities in
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people I knew from the MUP, the
14 professional staff of the MUP, I don't know that they ever armed regular
15 citizens or anyone else.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You have no knowledge about that.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have 65 ter 03838 brought to the
20 Q. Now, sir, you're familiar with Mr. Momcilo Mandic, I assume; is
21 that correct?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. And in March 1992 he held a high position in the MUP; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What you see in front of you is a published interview of
2 Mr. Mandic.
3 MS. MacGREGOR: And if we can please go to the second page in the
4 English and I believe it's -- if we can look in the B/C/S version at the
5 second page too, please. I may need a little help -- third page.
6 Q. It's very difficult to see but are you able to see that in front
7 of you, Mr. Witness?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Actually --
10 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, if I can have a moment.
11 Because I'm not certain that this is the correct page in the
12 B/C/S, it may be easier if I read from the English unless I can have some
13 input from some of my B/C/S-speaking colleagues. I'm trying to focus
14 here on the end of the first paragraph on the second page in the English,
15 and if you see where it says "in what ways did you help the Serbian
16 side ..." that's the portion I will be asking the witness about.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is not the page in B/C/S which is on the
19 MS. MacGREGOR: My limited knowledge left me with that same
21 Q. Mr. Witness --
22 MR. IVETIC: That should be the next page, the left column, about
23 two-fourths -- three-fourths of the way down the page.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.
25 And Ms. Stewart has shown me the same portion at the bottom left
1 corner. Thank you for your patience.
2 Q. Mr. Puhalac, if I can draw your attention if you see where it
3 says "in what ways did you help the Serbian side?" Now immediately above
4 that there's the following sentence:
5 "Naturally, I later sided with the Serbs and Serbian movement,
6 helping the Serbian side however I could."
7 And then we see the question:
8 "In what ways did you help the Serbian side?
9 "A. I gave them or put at their disposal official cars, I
10 recruited and admitted to the police force those Serbs proposed by
11 Radovan Karadzic and Rajko Dukic, but I also gave them some material
12 means and communications equipment. We would even deliver weapons to
13 Serbian police stations, for example in Pale, Sokolac, et cetera. We
14 grabbed and shared out as much as was needed."
15 Now, you've testified just now in response to Judge Orie at
16 transcript page 30:
17 "The people I knew from the MUP, the professional staff of the
18 MUP, I don't know that they ever armed regular citizens or anyone else."
19 Now, reading this interview from Mr. Mandic, do you have any
20 further reflections on whether or not you knew that members of the MUP
21 were involved in arming Serbs?
22 A. If the question relates to this text by Mr. Mandic, where he's
23 speaking as a Serbian leader and assistant minister who was in charge of
24 supplies of weapons to the police, supplying equipment to the police, for
25 staffing in the police, he's talking about that here. Of course this
1 relates to the weapons that were at the disposal of the MUP. Maybe he
2 was subjective when he talks about the police station in Sokolac and
3 Pale, but this is what it refers to as I read this document you put
4 before me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what you think may be the case or what you
6 assume is what may be the case is not what we are primarily interested
7 in. The question was whether reading this interview, whether you have
8 any further reflection on whether you know or do not know that members of
9 the MUP were involved in arming Serbs. And if I understand your answer
10 well the answer is: No, you still, even having read this, do not know
11 anything about that. Is that -- Mr. Ivetic.
12 MR. IVETIC: [Microphone not activated]
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- have we understood you well?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I did not know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
16 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I did want to raise a point. We seem
17 to be mixing apples and oranges. The first question was in relation to
18 arming of civilians and then this document was brought up which does not
19 mention the arming of civilians and yet the generic term "Serbs" was
20 identified for this document, which is why I didn't object because the
21 generic reference to "Serbs" could cover Serb police stations.
22 But I wanted to make clear, given Your Honour's follow-up
23 question, that this document in no way relates to the prior question by
24 Ms. MacGregor as to arming of civilians, at least not the section that
25 has been cited thus far.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.
2 MS. MacGREGOR:
3 Q. One final question about this document in front of you,
4 Mr. Puhalac. If you see the final question on the English version and
5 the last question on the bottom left-hand corner of the B/C/S version:
6 "When did you start supplying the Serb side, i.e., the SDS?
7 "A. That started around the end of 1991 and the beginning of
8 1992 ..."
9 Would you agree that during that period Mr. Mandic was still part
10 of the MUP?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: I no longer need this document and at this time
14 the Prosecution is not tendering it into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then you proceed with your next question.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Puhalac, in your statement you mention a 1991 order by MUP
18 minister Alija Delimustafic to mobilise reserve police forces. Now --
19 MS. MacGREGOR: This is at paragraph 8 for the record.
20 Q. Now, in fact at that time ethnic Serbs were also being mobilised,
21 weren't they?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. MacGREGOR: And if we can please see 65 ter 16864. While we
24 wait for the document to come to the screen this is a document entitled:
25 "Instructions," it's dated 21 September, 1991, to the SDS municipal
1 boards, and we see Mr. Karadzic's name at the bottom of the document.
2 Q. It's a short document and I'm going to read it for the record.
3 "Mobilisation of the war time police force is underway. There
4 are speculations that 100 per cent of the forces are being mobilised,
5 although republic organs can mobilise only 50 per cent. Also, there are
6 speculations that only Muslims are being mobilised or that Serbs are not
7 responding to the mobilisation, which would lead to the creation of
8 Muslim police and to circumstances for a civil war.
9 "I request that you keep an eye on what is going on in regard to
10 the above mentioned. Serbs are to respond to the mobilisation of reserve
12 "Inform us on the developments."
13 Is this an example of a mobilisation instruction for Serb members
14 of the reserve police?
15 A. I see this document for the first time. I believe it's authentic
16 and that it was written by Mr. Karadzic.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: The Prosecution tenders 16864 into evidence,
18 Your Honours.
19 MR. IVETIC: No objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 16864 receives number P6900,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: P6900 is admitted.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: Thank you, Mr. President. And I no longer need
25 this document.
1 Q. Your evidence is that Sarajevo in the end of April/beginning of
2 May 1992 was filled with Green Berets armed to the teeth taking over
3 police stations. That's at paragraph 13 of your statement for the
4 record. Now, you were not in Sarajevo at that time, as we've discussed;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Yes, from 1 April I was not in Sarajevo.
7 Q. And so you must have received this information from interviews of
8 Serbs leaving Sarajevo and other sources; is that right?
9 A. Which event do you mean?
10 Q. Sarajevo was filled with Green Berets armed to the teeth taking
11 over police stations. Did you hear about that from sources that you
12 interviewed and other sources?
13 A. Well, that there were Green Berets around town and that they were
14 armed was obvious to every person in Sarajevo, and I also met them
15 personally at barricades and around the town with the same units.
16 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can see paragraph 13 of D758.
17 Q. Sir, the paragraph I'm talking about specifically refers to the
18 end of April/beginning of May when you weren't there. I'm simply trying
19 to determine where you received the information about that time-period,
20 the information about Green Berets. You can see this statement yourself,
21 paragraph 13 of your statement. From whom did you receive that
23 A. The information that Pero Petrovic, a policeman, was killed and
24 that the station was taken over by paramilitary units I received from
25 Lazar Bojanic, a man who survived by chance because he was unconscious,
1 they thought him dead. When he left Sarajevo he testified about this.
2 That Juka Prazina took over the police hall next to the police station
3 which was, until then, an institution of the professional police was
4 carried by the media and masses of people who lived in Sarajevo and
5 finally it was shown on Sarajevo TV.
6 Q. Did you also collect information about successful Serb operations
7 in Sarajevo in the time-period of end of April/beginning of May?
8 A. Successful Serb operations? Which ones? I don't understand the
10 Q. Operations carried out by Serb forces in Sarajevo in the
11 time-period of end of April/beginning of May, did you hear about that?
12 A. Well, we gathered information on all security aspects. Maybe if
13 you asked me a more specific question I could answer. I don't know
14 exactly what you mean.
15 MS. MacGREGOR: If I can please have Exhibit 6605.
16 Q. Sir, this is a published copy of an interview by Miovan Bjelica,
17 president of the Executive Board of the SDS of Sokolac.
18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Is that a P exhibit?
19 MS. MacGREGOR: P.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
21 MS. MacGREGOR: And the B/C/S version is one page and if we can
22 have page 3 in the English.
23 Q. In this interview Mr. Bjelica is asked:
24 "How did you arm the people?"
25 He answers:
1 "Serbian Democratic Party organised all activities related to
2 preparation and organising of people for defence. Since we realised that
3 there had been a great betrayal in the army in former JNA, we had to go
4 to military depots which we assumed would not be in our possession and
5 take weapons from them. The SDS activist played an important role here.
6 First we took the equipment and weapons from western Herzegovina, from
7 Gabela which we brought to Romanija. Then we took the equipment from
8 Central Bosnia from Visoko, from Sarajevo municipalities which were not
9 under our control, and our greatest success was taking the equipment and
10 weapons from Faletic."
11 Mr. Puhalac, Faletici is a weapons depot for Sarajevo; is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And Mr. Bjelica continues in response to the next question:
15 "We stole it from their hands. We agreed with then-minister of
16 defence and with a man from security of then Sarajevo Corps."
17 And the next paragraph describes the operation.
18 "We did it by night in April 1992. There was a group of young
19 men, activists of SDS which I was leading ... the first night took whole
20 of artillery and weapons." And I have skipped one portion as I am
21 reading it.
22 "There was about 300 artillery tubes, from 35 to 50.000 rifles as
23 well as other equipment." Skipping again.
24 "Severe attacks on the barracks followed. We were helped by the
25 unit of Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, i.e., 1st Romanija Brigade, which
1 helped us on the second day ..."
2 MS. MacGREGOR: If we can scroll down a bit in the English
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think you have to move to the next page.
5 MS. MacGREGOR: Yeah, sorry. If we can move to the second page.
6 Q. "... which helped us on the second day while we were pulling out
7 weapons and equipment. We brought all weapons and equipment to the
8 territory of Romanija in three days."
9 First of all, is that in fact a reference to Dragomir Milosevic
10 that I've just read?
11 A. Are you asking me if that's Dragomir Milosevic?
12 Q. Yes, would that be your understanding if you read that?
13 A. Well, I don't know who Mr. Bjelica meant, but if you really want
14 my opinion I believe, yes, that he is thinking of him.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the factual question is: Witness, do you
16 know any colonel by the name Dragoljub Milosevic or do you not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragoljub, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And Dragomir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met Dragomir Milosevic at the
20 Lukavica barracks. I cannot remember when, but as far as I know he --
21 there was -- and that was Colonel Milosevic. But it's Dragomir according
22 to my best recollection, not Dragoljub.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.
24 MS. MacGREGOR:
25 Q. So in addition to attacks by Green Berets that you mention in
1 Sarajevo at this time, there were also SDS forces assisted by the JNA
2 lodging attacks in Sarajevo; is that correct?
3 MR. IVETIC: I object to the form of the question where it says
4 assisted by the JNA. The document actually says there was a betrayal on
5 the part of the JNA. The assistance is listed as a minister of defence
6 and with a man from the security organ of the Sarajevo Corps.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
8 Ms. MacGregor you said assisted by the JNA. You relied on what
9 part exactly of this document?
10 MS. MacGREGOR: I'm relying on evidence that's been heard by the
11 Chamber, not specifically to this document --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
13 MS. MacGREGOR: -- but to this witness I can withdraw the
14 reference to the JNA to keep it simple.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please put your question again to the
16 witness in the way you would like to do now.
17 MS. MacGREGOR: Sure. Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. In the period of late April/early May, were you aware that SDS
19 forces were successfully lodging attacks in Sarajevo?
20 A. This is about relocating the Faletici barracks or the weapons
21 depot. I know that the weapons were transferred out of Faletici because
22 the barracks were blockaded and that there was some minor conflicts or
23 clashes that broke out in Faletici. So this is the specific information
24 that I have about that. As for who actually made the transfer, who took
25 part in that, I don't know that, but I do know that the weapons were
1 moved because there was a struggle about who will actually take
2 possession of the weapons, whether it would be the Serb forces or other
3 forces, and I know that the weapons were moved from Faletici. It was an
4 official military weapons depot.
5 Q. Moving away from this document and we can remove it from the
6 screen, Mr. Puhalac, my question is about your knowledge -- not from this
7 document, your knowledge based on sources that you talked to, colleagues
8 that you spoke to, your knowledge about the conditions in Sarajevo in
9 late April/beginning of May 1992. Now, were you aware that during that
10 time-period Serb forces - and I'm referring to the Serb TO, the MUP, the
11 Serb-controlled JNA - that they effected a siege of Sarajevo during that
12 time-period. My question is just: Were you aware of that?
13 A. The barricades were erected on both sides. The ring around
14 Sarajevo was closed by the forces from Sarajevo which set up their own
15 check-points and then the Serb side also placed its check-points facing
16 those. So you could say that Sarajevo was blocked and that check-points
17 were set up by both of the sides, the check-points faced each other. In
18 such a situation where one side was in fear of the other and both feared
19 that clashes would break out, the check-points were set up by each of the
20 sides. That's the truth.
21 MS. MacGREGOR: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.
23 Mr. Ivetic.
24 MR. IVETIC: Your Honours, I have no questions for the witness.
25 I would only thank him again for answering my previous questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench has no questions for the witness
2 either, this concludes your testimony in this court, Mr. Puhalac. We
3 would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and
4 for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties
5 and put to you by the Bench. You are excused and I wish you a safe
6 return home again.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: The statement of the witness indeed needs
10 verification. I saw that, for example, the portion read about
11 Juka Prazina taking over a police station that the year is incorrectly
12 stated. The original says "1992, 4th of April"; the translation says
13 "1994." There it should be carefully done.
14 MR. IVETIC: I will send -- I will have CLSS notified to take a
15 look at the original and verify it --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. IVETIC: -- those and any other corrections.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will wait for the next witness to enter the
19 courtroom and that would be, Mr. Ivetic -- or Mr. Stojanovic, I see you
20 are ready. Your next witness is ... ?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will be
22 questioning the next witness and the next witness will be Trifko Komad.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for him to enter the courtroom.
24 MS. MacGREGOR: Your Honours, if I may take your leave.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, is it you who will cross-examine
1 Mr. Komad?
2 MS. BIBLES: Yes, Your Honour. I'll be cross-examining this
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I use the time to deal with another matter
5 which is the redacted witness statement of Witness Ratomir Maksimovic,
6 65 ter 1D04058a. The Chamber notes that the redacted version of this
7 witness statement of Ratomir Maksimovic has been uploaded into e-court.
8 The unredacted version of the witness's statement, which bears
9 65 ter number 1D04058, was MFI'd and assigned number D686 during the
10 testimony of the witness.
11 The Chamber would like to know if the Prosecution has any
12 objections to the replacement of the unredacted version of the statement
13 with the redacted version and therefore to the admission of the document
14 bearing 65 ter 1D04058a.
15 If you want to think about it, Ms. Bibles, you have an
16 opportunity to do so.
17 MS. BIBLES: We'll provide an answer after the next break,
18 Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Ivetic, just going back to the previous witness, I saw that
21 the last paragraph of his statement was redacted. I don't know whether
22 that was redacted already in the Karadzic case or --
23 MR. IVETIC: It was. That's the redaction that was put in place
24 by the Karadzic case based upon a prior objection by the Prosecution in
25 that case and an order from the Chamber in that case.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I have -- of course we have no idea what
2 happened in the Karadzic case.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon -- no, good morning still, Mr. Komad.
5 Well, the Judges will finalise their struggle on whether 20 minutes to
6 12.00 is morning or afternoon soon --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Komad. Before you give evidence
9 the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration. The text is now
10 handed out to you and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: TRIFKO KOMAD
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Komad. Mr. Komad,
17 you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic. You'll find him to your
18 left. Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. I would like to ask you to slowly say your correct first and last
25 name for the transcript.
1 A. My name is Trifko Komad.
2 Q. Mr. Trifko, did you at one point provide a statement to the
3 Defence of Radovan Karadzic, a written statement?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
6 look at document 65 ter 1D016 -- 1D04474.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could all extra microphones be switched off,
9 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we understand whether these are two or one
10 document, 1D016 and then 1D04474?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a supplement to
12 the statement that the witness gave to General Mladic's Defence and that
13 is 1D01652.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: That's now a third document you are mentioning,
15 Mr. Stojanovic. You mentioned 1D016 and then 1D044 -- 474. Now you
16 didn't -- been mentioning 1D01652.
17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I corrected
18 myself because I asked for 1D04474. There is no document that begins
19 with 06, there is no 1D016, and I corrected myself and gave the correct
21 Q. Mr. Komad, in front of you you can see the statement. I would
22 now like us to look at the last page of the document.
23 A. Yes, I see it.
24 Q. And now can you look at the last page of the document. Does
25 it -- does this page show a handwritten date and a signature and were
1 these put there by you in your hand?
2 A. Yes, that is my signature and my handwriting.
3 Q. Thank you. When we went through the document while we were
4 preparing for your testimony before this Tribunal and today when you gave
5 the solemn declaration, would you still stand by the answers that you
6 gave then to the questions by the Radovan Karadzic Defence?
7 A. Yes, I stand by what I said to them.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
10 tender document 65 ter 1D04474.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
12 Madam Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D4474 receives number D760,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Mr. Trifko, did you also at one point in time provide a statement
18 to the Mladic Defence, replying to questions that were put to you about
19 your knowledge about specific events that you were asked about?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at 65 ter
23 document 1D01652 in e-court, please.
24 Q. Mr. Trifko, is your signature also on this document that we see
1 A. Yes, that is my signature.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last
4 page of the document.
5 Q. Is the signature and the handwritten date on this page also
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. While preparing for your testimony, did you tell us
9 that you believed that it would be necessary to supplement your statement
10 with a few words in order for it to be more complete and more clear?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
13 look at paragraph 3 of the witness statement, that is 65 ter number
14 1D01652, paragraph 3.
15 Q. Mr. Trifko, did you feel that it was necessary to add a word in
16 the second sentence of this paragraph after the word "upraising the
17 consciousness of the Serbian people"?
18 A. Yes, I wanted us to add the word "spiritual consciousness."
19 Q. Thank you. And would the text of this sentence then read:
20 "The Serbian -- the Serb religious community as well as the
21 development of national consciousness of the Serb people were completely
22 neglected ..." and so on and so forth.
23 So would that be the correct sentence now?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In paragraph 4 of this statement you indicated --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, what you just read,
2 Mr. Stojanovic, is without the word "spiritual," and I thought that
3 that's what is exactly the word the witness wanted to add, isn't it, or
4 am I mistaken?
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the witness
6 wanted to add the word spiritual, consciousness of the Serb people.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have left it to that then there would
8 have been no confusion. But then you started reading the line as it
9 reads now which was already perfectly clear. And then you left out -- at
10 least in the English translation the word "spiritual" was left out. So
11 it is now in again. Please proceed.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. In paragraph 4, Mr. Trifko, did you say that the title of the
14 faculty, that is the last line of paragraph 4, the word "Islamic
15 theological faculty in all of Europe" should be added?
16 A. Yes, that was my remark, that it was necessary to add after the
17 word "Islamic" the theological -- so that we know that we're talking
18 about the faculty of theology.
19 Q. Thank you. And in paragraph 5 did you point out that in line 7
20 of the English version and the sixth line of the B/C/S version instead of
21 the word "to 2000" the word should be "until 1992," that would be the
22 correct year; right?
23 A. Yes, that was my correction.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at paragraph
1 17, please.
2 Q. Line 1 in both the B/C/S and the English version you told us that
3 it would be clearer if after the word "the beginning of April" the year
4 "1992" was added?
5 A. Yes. That is also what I wanted to add so that we would know
6 which year that referred to.
7 Q. Thank you. And so to finish with this we'll move on to paragraph
8 18, last line. Did you tell us that you believed that a clarification
9 was necessary by adding the word "and secretary of the Executive Board of
10 the SDS," adding the words "SDS" here?
11 A. Yes, I asked for that to be added so that it would be clear
12 exactly the secretary of what body that was.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Now that we have made these
14 clarifications to your statement I would like to ask you this: Now after
15 you have given the solemn declaration, would you give the same answers to
16 the questions that were put to you then?
17 A. Yes, I would stand by what I said to the General Mladic Defence.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
20 tender the following exhibit and that is the statement bearing the
21 65 ter number 1D01652.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, in your written response it says that
23 you do not oppose admission of the statement, not statements.
24 MS. BIBLES: That's correct, Your Honour. And it was reflective,
25 I think, the language of the original motion. But we don't oppose either
1 of the statements, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1652 receives number D761,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence, while the original motion
6 states -- refers to annex A and annex B and seeks leave to present the
7 evidence not a statement.
8 Please -- I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Stojanovic. It's time
9 for a break.
10 Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes and we would like to
11 see you back at quarter past 12.00. You may follow the usher.
12 Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us how much time you think you
13 would still need?
14 [The witness stands down]
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to read
16 the summary and then after that I just have two very brief questions for
17 the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter
19 past 12.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Apologies for the late start.
23 Mr. Stojanovic, you are about to start reading the summary.
24 Well, I think it's better to wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.
25 Although we don't need him for your reading the summary, but I think it's
1 more convenient for him to be able to listen to it.
2 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I will take this moment to let you know
3 that we have no objection to the redacted document 1D0450 -- excuse me,
4 1D04058a, the proposed redacted version of the Maksimovic statement.
5 There is no objection
6 [The witness takes the stand]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then the registrar is instructed to replace
8 1D4058 -- I'm afraid I -- yes with 1D4058a. And D686 is admitted into
10 Mr. Stojanovic.
11 Witness, Mr. Stojanovic will now read a summary of your evidence
12 so that at least the public knows what is in your statement because later
13 they'll be able to follow the questions put to you in relation to that
15 Mr. Stojanovic.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Witness Trifko Komad is a professor of sociology by training and
18 until the outbreak of the war he lived and worked in Sarajevo occupying a
19 number of jobs such as secretary of the motorists' association of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from 1986 he was in the republic conference of
21 the socialist alliance of BH dealing with affairs of national defence and
22 religious issues.
23 He talks about the gathering and association of Serbian
24 intellectuals in the end of the 1980S and the emergence of the need for
25 political organisation of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina
1 because it was clear by that time that the remaining two constituent
2 peoples in BH had already through political parties SDA and HDZ developed
3 their own method of political work in a multi-party setting.
4 He got involved in organisational and technical work preparing
5 the programme of the new party, and after the founding Assembly of the
6 SDS in July 1990 he became a member of the Main Board and later of the
7 Executive Council of the Main Board of the SDS, and thereby member of the
8 Political Council of the SDS. And finally, secretary of the
9 Executive Council of the Main Board of the SDS.
10 He testifies to the interrelations within the SDS, the role of
11 Radovan Karadzic in the political life of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
12 intentions and goals of the Serbian people in overcoming political and
13 international tensions, as well as sectarian occurrences in the party,
14 illustrating all this by comments on a number of intercepts involving
15 Radovan Karadzic and himself.
16 He emphasises his knowledge about documents containing Variants A
17 and B relating to the organisation of authorities in municipalities
18 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the reasons for the establishment of
19 Crisis Staffs in municipalities and their role and tasks.
20 He got out of Sarajevo on 6 April 1992, leaving behind in the
21 city his parents who met their end there as a result of mistreatment and
22 persecution, whereas his sister remain a permanent invalid. Later on he
23 assumes responsibilities to organise and escort the movement of
24 humanitarian convoys towards the territory of the Federation of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina until the end of 1992 when he began to work in the
1 bureau of the RS government in Belgrade.
2 In the supplement to his statement which he gave to the Defence
3 team of General Mladic, he speaks in greater detail on the position of
4 the Serbian people, the Serbian religious community, and the attempts to
5 wipe out Serbian spiritual heritage in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the
6 outbreak of the war. He has indirect knowledge about the state of
7 interethnic relations in Foca before the war and states that he had had
8 opportunity to meet with General Mladic several times and gain an
9 impression on his positions and the position of the VRS with regard to
10 the activity of paramilitary units.
11 This is all, Your Honours. At this moment I should like to
12 tender this statement but also the associated documents, and I believe we
13 have an agreement with the Prosecution who have no objections. I would
14 now take the liberty of reading out all these four exhibits as I tender
16 JUDGE ORIE: Which statement do you want to tender? I think you
17 tendered two statements. They have both been admitted, so I'm wondering
18 what remains as far as statements are concerned.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the statement that
20 is now marked D760 mentions in four paragraphs intercepts commented on by
21 the witness, and I would be so free as to tender these intercepts as
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the only thing remaining from what I
24 understand. These are associated exhibits. If you name them one by
25 one -- no speaking aloud, no speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic. You know the
2 Let's try to -- I have the numbers here. The first one is
3 RM 65 ter 1D04475. There are no objections. None of them, Ms. Bibles?
4 MS. BIBLES: No.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: 1D4475 receives number D762, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: 1D04476 receives number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: D763, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: 1D04477?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D764, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 1D04478?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Receives number D765, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D762 up to and including D765 are admitted into
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Could we now call up in e-court D761, paragraph 20.
18 Q. Mr. Komad, you say here that you had occasion to meet with
19 General Mladic, and I would kindly ask you to tell the Court in greater
20 detail to the best of your recollection when that was and when -- where
21 did these meetings take place?
22 A. The first time I met General Mladic was in Pale in May 1992, when
23 General Mladic arrived by helicopter from Knin, I believe, or somewhere.
24 He arrived at Pale and his helicopter landed near the resort called
25 Kikinda where the Serbian leadership stayed at that time. This was, I
1 believe, the first meeting of the republican leadership with
2 General Mladic, and at that meeting they discussed the principles and the
3 way the Serbian people would organise their defence. I was not the main
4 person there. I was just attending and it was mainly General Mladic and
5 Mr. Karadzic who spoke.
6 Q. Do you remember your second meeting?
7 A. It was in July 1993 when a group of Serbs from the United States
8 arrived carrying humanitarian aid. They applied to the bureau in
9 Belgrade where I was then working and I was that group's escort. We were
10 supposed to turn over that humanitarian aid to the Main Staff at
11 Han Pijesak, and the second part of the humanitarian aid was delivered to
12 Pale to the political leadership. I was at that time one of the people
13 who were responsible for delivering the aid. The weather was bad, if I
14 remember well. General Mladic arrived from Mount Treskavica, again by
15 helicopter, and we spent that day together with those people from the US.
16 Most of them were representatives of the Serbian Orthodox church from
17 Chicago. General Mladic wanted to receive those people, to thank them
18 personally, and that's what he did.
19 And my third meeting with him was in Belgrade. It was very
20 brief. We saw each other only in passing. I was working at the bureau,
21 he came upstairs, we just exchanged greetings and that was it. Those
22 were all my encounters with General Mladic.
23 Q. Can you remember that meeting in Belgrade, when was it?
24 A. I can't remember exactly. I can't remember the exact time. I
25 would make a mistake.
1 Q. And I will finish with one more question. Paragraph 9, if we
2 could look at it.
3 Mr. Komad, in this paragraph you discussed the attitude towards
4 the Serbian Orthodox clergy, mentioning some examples. Could you please
5 tell the Court if you heard any first-hand or indirect knowledge about
6 what happened to Serbian Orthodox churches during those years in the
7 territory controlled by the BH Federation?
8 A. In my statement I focused quite a lot on the spiritual condition
9 of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war. I pointed
10 out a number of facts that speak about the neglect of Serb religious
11 communities and even attempts to wipe it out. I illustrated it with a
12 number of facts in my written statement, but I would also like to add
13 that this process of discrimination and these attempts to wipe out this
14 community was described by Mr. Ala Ukovic [phoen] in his book "Spiritual
15 Genocide." He relates precise information as to how it happened in
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I will mention just a few. The fact is that the war
17 continued this aggressive, discriminating treatment of Serb churches and
18 the Serb religious community in Bosnia-Herzegovina. If I may only just
19 say that according to information from that book, 170 churches and
20 monasteries were destroyed --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- also 116 were damaged --
23 JUDGE ORIE: If an expert has written on this in books, then the
24 Defence has an opportunity to call such an expert, but we are interested
25 in your personal knowledge not in what you read in books written by
1 others. So we leave it to that. I didn't stop you right away because --
2 but it comes down to opinion and perhaps even expert evidence which is
3 supposed not to be given by a witness of fact.
4 Mr. Stojanovic, this was your last question? Yes.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 I thank Mr. Komad and conclude. We turn him over to the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Komad, you'll now be cross-examined by
9 Ms. Bibles. You'll find her to your right. Ms. Bibles is counsel for
10 the Prosecution.
11 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:
13 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. I'd like to start by clarifying where in your statements and
16 where in the events you might have direct knowledge. I'd first like to
17 look at D761, paragraphs 15 through 17, which discuss several things
18 including Foca. My question for you, sir, is: Were you in Foca at all
19 from April through December of 1992?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do I understand correctly then that none of your evidence about
22 Foca comes from your direct observation of the events in Foca themselves?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Thank you. And you've testified, I believe, at temporary
25 transcript 54 as well as in paragraph 20 of D761 about a meeting in Pale
1 at the Hotel Kikinda. Were you present for all of the meeting?
2 A. Not all of the meeting, no. Not all of the meeting, but for most
3 of it, yes.
4 Q. Were you there when Tintor was describing what should happen to
5 mixed-marriage couples?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Turning now to your other statement, to D760 at paragraph 29.
8 You indicate that you left Bosnia and Herzegovina in late 1992 or early
9 1993 for Belgrade. Could you be more specific as to your dates?
10 A. I think it was January 1993, but if I just may say this: I would
11 come and go. I would go to Belgrade and return to Pale. I wasn't --
12 either in Belgrade or in Pale on a permanent basis. I mean, you could
13 say that I was moving back and forth. My task was to form a bureau in
14 Belgrade, then I would return to Pale. It was difficult. The phone
15 lines were not reliable, so I had to return to Pale for many of the
16 things that I needed to do. So I don't know if I've been clear enough.
17 I would go back and forth.
18 Q. That answers my question. Now, while you were in Belgrade for
19 the years remaining in the war, which organs of the Serbian government
20 did you work with?
21 A. Mostly with the main leadership, practically with everybody but
22 mostly with the organs of power from the Assembly, other organs, and
23 better said that it was work with the civilian organs rather than the
24 military organs.
25 Q. All right. Thank you. Now --
1 A. If you need me to clarify, I can do that. I dealt with
2 humanitarian assistance, protection of refugees, the wounded. So there
3 were contacts with the military organs regarding the care for the
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just to be clear, these were Serbian civilian
6 organisations of Serbia, not of the RS?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Republika Srpska and then
8 sometimes with the organs of Serbia if needed, both of them, because that
9 was the function of the bureau, to be a link in all the co-operation and
10 the assistance that was required.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thanks.
12 Madam Bibles.
13 MS. BIBLES:
14 Q. And because it's not particularly clear, could you describe the
15 name of the bureau that you worked for starting in 1993 throughout the
17 A. The name was the Bureau of Republika Srpska. It was an organ of
18 Republika Srpska. In the beginning it was conceived in such a way and
19 then later it would have the form of it being an organ, a bureau of the
20 government of Republika Srpska. It exists today, but now it's called the
21 Representative Offices of Republika Srpska. Sometime after the war it
22 changed its name. During the war the name was the Bureau of
23 Republika Srpska.
24 Q. All right. And when you needed to go, let's say, up the chain of
25 command, did you report to or give requests to Momcilo Mandic?
1 A. Momcilo was the director of the Bureau of Republika Srpska for a
2 time -- actually, it was during the time that I was working there.
3 Q. Thank you. We'll shift topics now.
4 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 31576 on our screen.
5 Q. Sir, in your statement D760 in paragraph 30 you challenge some of
6 the adjudicated facts before the Mladic court.
7 MS. BIBLES: And, Your Honours, although we discussed it before
8 court and I believe there was an e-mail, we should clarify that in D760
9 in paragraph 30 where there is a reference to the adjudicated fact 1946,
10 that's actually in the Karadzic case. The parallel adjudicated fact
11 would be 79 in this case --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well --
13 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Bibles, I was --
15 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- surprised that the Defence without any further
17 explanation presents to us comments on adjudicated facts in another case
18 which I'm not aware of. So I have not discussed the matter with my
19 colleagues yet, but I thought let's just ignore it if this is the way in
20 which it is presented.
21 Mr. Stojanovic, I do not know what you expect the Chamber to do
22 with adjudicated facts in another case and comment on it. We've got no
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to what
25 we did while preparing for the testimony of this witness, the adjudicated
1 fact from the Karadzic case is identical to the adjudicated fact from
2 this case number 79, 79 in our case. It's an identical passage. And we
3 did inform the Trial Chamber and the Prosecutor about this.
4 JUDGE ORIE: When did you inform us about that? I may have
5 missed it, in which case I'm -- oh, this morning. Let's have a look.
6 Let me just have a look.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber staff received an e-mail this morning
8 at 8.53 from the Defence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. If that -- I have not read that yet,
10 but if that explains the matter. But it would be wise to refer to these
11 matters in court, but I have to correct myself that you had not given
12 notice, although very late and in a way which is not the most appropriate
13 one. I leave it to that at this moment.
14 Then could we have the text of the two adjudicated facts to see
15 whether they are exactly the same or whether they are not exactly the
16 same. Similar is not good enough, Mr. Stojanovic. Do you have the text
17 of the -- could you read them, the two, into the transcript, the Karadzic
18 one and then the Mladic one. Do you have them ?
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you read to start with the Karadzic
21 one, that we have it on the record.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On the 21st of November, 1991,
23 the Assembly of Bosnian Serbs proclaimed as part of the territory of the
24 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia all those municipalities or communities
25 and settlements where the majority of registered citizens were of Serb
1 ethnicity and they opted to remain in Yugoslavia.
2 According to the comparison that we made, adjudicated fact number
3 79 in this case corresponds to the text that I have just read out.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it literally the same or -- could you read out
5 the text of adjudicated fact in this case 79.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we do not have the
7 original in English or B/C/S.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you know, my
9 knowledge of English is not sufficient for me to be able to read it, but
10 this morning I asked my colleagues to make this comparison and they
11 informed me that the text in English is identical.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll check that myself at this moment and you
13 may -- Ms. Bibles can continue meanwhile.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before she does, I think, Mr. Stojanovic, it would
15 be very helpful where you have a number for an adjudicated fact in this
16 trial and in another trial to rather use in the statement the
17 adjudicated -- the number in this trial, then we wouldn't be having this
18 whole discussion of comparing adjudicated facts. It would save us more
19 time then if you could refer to the fact -- the adjudicated fact of this
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's number 79 in our case, as Mr. Stojanovic
22 indicated earlier.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement was from the
24 Karadzic case and so we felt that in the technical sense this would be
25 the best way to notify you of this matter, in view of the fact that the
1 paragraphs are in the Karadzic statement, from the Karadzic case. I
2 thank you for your understanding.
3 MS. BIBLES: Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, we have heard the description of adjudicated fact 79 in this
5 case. And in front of you, sir, on the screen is a decision taken the
6 session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on 21 November 1991, which states in
7 its first paragraph: The territories of municipalities, local
8 communities, and populated places in which more than 50 per cent of the
9 Serbian electorate voted for the same joint state ... and then we see the
10 last portion of that paragraph which says:
11 " ... shall be considered the territory of the federal state of
13 Now, sir, you've challenged this adjudicated fact in this trial,
14 but I would point out to you that with some insignificant differences
15 this decision is reflected accurately in the text of the adjudicated
16 fact; isn't that correct?
17 A. Look, I wasn't part of the Assembly organs. I wasn't a deputy or
18 held any other function in the municipal -- in the Assembly organs.
19 Therefore, this decision by the Assembly is something that I was informed
20 about. But I'm not sure what you are asking me.
21 Q. Sir, isn't it true that the adjudicated fact which we've heard
22 read out is accurately reflected by the decision of the Bosnian Serb
23 Assembly on the 21st of November, 1991; that's accurate, isn't it?
24 A. It is correct that this is the original text, yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. BIBLES: Your Honours, I tender 31576.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31576 receives number P6901,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I should not have admitted it yet without it
6 being assigned a number. P6901 is admitted.
7 Witness, the issue is that the adjudicated fact says: This is
8 what the Assembly proclaimed. Now, whether that was right or wrong is
9 another matter, but you said that the adjudicated fact is wrong. The
10 adjudicated fact simply said what the Assembly claimed. Therefore, in
11 that respect, it seems to be a perfect adjudicated fact because it is
12 literally the same as what the decision tells us. So that's not very
13 smart to do it that way, but also not -- I do not understand, even with
14 the explanation of Mr. Stojanovic, how we should understand this.
15 Because Ms. Bibles has -- and you agree with her, that this is what the
16 decision says. How could you then say that it's not what the Assembly
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where did I say that?
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: In your statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement. You say that the adjudicated
21 fact is not correct, but let's have a look. It's the last paragraph in
22 your Karadzic statement I think.
23 MS. BIBLES: Paragraph 30, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: 30, yes.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the second paragraph of paragraph 30.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it
3 would be fair to the witness to show him the paragraph from the Karadzic
4 judgement so that he could look at that.
5 JUDGE MOLOTO: No --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's totally irrelevant to -- well --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's no judgement yet, but I think you
8 misspoke or the interpreters did misspeak. It should be D758 -- sorry,
10 JUDGE ORIE: You said at the last paragraph:
11 "I can state the following: These adjudicated facts are
12 incorrect ..."
13 That's what you said. And the first one was just read to you,
14 that is what the Assembly proclaimed. And your explanation is -- has got
15 nothing to do with it being an accurate reflection of what the Assembly
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please the next page in English.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There it is.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall giving a statement
21 that the adjudicated facts were incorrect. All I did was confirm in my
22 statement that the local commune was the basic sociopolitical unit and
23 that it was possible that the locally communes as basic sociopolitical
24 units exist and that's part of what I said in the Karadzic case. I'm not
25 sure that I said that the adjudicated fact is incorrect.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But you attested to this statement this very
2 morning, Witness?
3 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
4 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked by Mr. Stojanovic whether you
5 reviewed them and whether you would give the same answers and whether it
6 was all accurate. When did you read it for the last time this statement.
7 A. This statement, I read it when came here to The Hague.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, and your statement clearly says what your
9 testimony is, isn't it? Okay, but you attested to it this morning so if
10 you don't remember then you must not perhaps have read it very carefully
11 before entering this courtroom. We'll leave it to that.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But, Witness, do you see this text on the
13 left-hand side of the screen in front of you. The long paragraph, the
14 last paragraph on that page, first line. This is your statement in the
15 Karadzic case.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And it says: "These adjudicated facts are
18 incorrect." Am I right?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's written.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And you attested to it this morning.
21 Let's proceed.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 MS. BIBLES:
24 Q. Sir, I'd next like to shift attention towards D761 which is your
25 Mladic statement in which in paragraph 19 you say with respect to
2 "It would happen that local bosses would commandeer all or parts
3 of the humanitarian aid for their own needs which was explained away by
4 saying that the people and troops did not have enough for their own
5 needs. The Serbs' political leadership analysed this and concluded that
6 such vigilanteism could no longer be tolerated and instead they created
7 an organisational structure which would allow convoys and humanitarian
8 aid to pass through, and I was tasked by the political leadership with
9 co-ordinating this for some time in 1992."
10 On what date did you stop co-ordinating the humanitarian aid for
11 the RS political leadership?
12 A. [No interpretation]
13 MS. BIBLES: I didn't receive interpretation.
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Neither did we.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the end of 1992 when I left for
17 MS. BIBLES: If we could have P6770 on our screens, please. This
18 is under seal and should not be broadcast. But the body of the text
19 itself is not protected so we may remain in open session for this.
20 Q. Sir, on your screen you'll see that this is an Official Note
21 regarding the British humanitarian aid convoy from an organisation called
22 the -- or Serious Road Trip, and it involves it being stopped at the
23 Mostar check-point. At the top we see it's dated 20 October 1992. This
24 Official Note is addressed to the Ilidza war department, national
25 security service, Ministry of the Interior RS, and it explains that
1 medical equipment was confiscated because the crew did not have the right
2 documentation. In the third paragraph the author of the document states:
3 "The instruments were confiscated and immediately handed over to
4 the Zica hospital in Blazuj ..."
5 He also states:
6 "The instruments in question were ones that were vital to our
7 hospital ..."
8 Now, sir, under your watch over these convoys, was it the policy
9 to take items from a convoy rather than sending the convoy and its
10 property back?
11 A. The policy was to escort the convoy to its destination, not to
12 confiscate anything, to take it to the destination; specifically, I
13 escorted a convoy that was going to Sarajevo and in Sarajevo I turned
14 over the truck filled with goods intended for Sarajevo, the same in
15 Gorazde when it was under the rule of Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities.
16 Q. Sir, you're certainly not talking about the convoy that is
17 described in this document from the 20th of October, are you?
18 A. No --
19 JUDGE MOLOTO: He's talking about policy, not what happened on
20 the ground.
21 MS. BIBLES:
22 Q. Sir --
23 A. Yes, right.
24 Q. -- let's take a look at another document with respect to another
1 MS. BIBLES: If we could have P6771 and again this is under seal
2 and should not be broadcast, but the body, the text, is not sensitive so
3 we can remain in open session.
4 Q. Sir, as this document comes up you'll see that it is another
5 Official Note regarding the same British humanitarian aid convoy from
6 Serious Road Trip. This one, however, is dated 17 December 1992 and it's
7 referring to events on the 16th of December, 1992. Again, we see that
8 it's addressed to the Ilidza war department, and I will take you to the
9 first paragraph of the first page about halfway down to the sentence
11 "They brought in paperwork ..."
12 "They brought in paperwork on the convoy which is in order and so
13 received permission for the passage but that they were to leave behind
14 one-third of the cargo at Ilidza which they consented to with great
16 So, sir, what we see in practice, at least in this instance, was
17 that when the documents are in order the Republika Srpska would take a
18 third of the items to allow the convoy to pass; correct?
19 A. Well, I cannot say that it was policy. It wasn't policy. I
20 don't know if there were cases like that. I told you what the position
21 of the leadership was, to take goods to their destination. But I don't
22 allow the possibility that things described by you happened because we
23 were not able to control everything, even the means of communication we
24 had at that time did not allow us to control everything.
25 MS. BIBLES: We can move this document from the screen now.
1 Thank you.
2 Q. And, sir, shifting directions or shifting topics again, in D760,
3 your Karadzic statement, paragraph 9, you describe that you were a member
4 of the SDS Main Board and Executive Board. Now, you were not elected to
5 those positions; correct?
6 A. Yes, I became secretary and I was also co-opted into the
7 Main Board. When I was elected at the parliament the president,
8 according to the statute, had the right to nominate some people, I don't
9 know if it was seven or nine people, proposing them to become members of
10 the Main Board. I was among those nominees. And as for the position of
11 secretary, I was elected officially at the Executive Council following a
12 competition for a publicly known vacancy.
13 Q. Sir, to make sure that we understand this correctly, is it true
14 that you were selected directly into the Main Board and Executive Board
15 by Radovan Karadzic?
16 A. To the Executive Council I was elected following a competition
17 when I answered a vacancy announcement, and into the Main Board I was
19 Q. And that means selected by Radovan Karadzic; is that correct?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Shifting topics a little bit now going to D760, which is your
22 Karadzic statement, in paragraph 19 you describe that relations between
23 the central and local bodies of the SDS were rather complex and that at
24 the local levels there was a lot of misconduct and animosity from
25 Banja Luka into the Krajina towards Sarajevo and later Pale. In
1 paragraph 21 you state that leaders from the Krajina, and you name some
2 of them, were co-operative in the early stages but then began to have
3 problems as early as July of 1991. I'd like to discuss this area with
4 you right before the break.
5 MS. BIBLES: If we could have the transcript of 65 ter 20251 on
6 the screen, please.
7 Q. Sir, you'll see that this is a transcript of a conversation that
8 was intercepted between Karadzic and local party officials in Prijedor,
9 especially Simo Miskovic and Srdo Srdic. An individual by the name of
10 Radomir Neskovic also appears on the conversation. I would first like to
11 ask about Neskovic, is he an individual from Sarajevo?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He was --
14 A. But I have to clarify if you'll allow me, he was a member of the
15 Executive Board together with me.
16 Q. Based out of Sarajevo. All right. Sir, he appears on this
17 conversation --
18 A. Right. I believe he was born somewhere near Pale.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you please wait for the next
21 MS. BIBLES:
22 Q. Sir, in this conversation as you see it appears that Mr. Neskovic
23 is in Prijedor.
24 MS. BIBLES: If we could go to page 2 in the English but stay on
25 page 1 in the B/C/S.
1 Q. And, sir, directing your attention to the lower part of the first
2 page in B/C/S, we see Neskovic describing a problem in Prijedor,
3 essentially that local Assemblymen are claiming more seniority. Now
4 moving to page 2 in the B/C/S and to the top of page 3 in the English, he
6 "They do not recognise any authority here, especially if you
7 mention Sarajevo."
8 Is this an example of the kind of animosity that you were
9 referring to?
10 A. Roughly speaking, yes. But if you allow me to explain why
11 Neskovic is mentioned in Prijedor --
12 Q. Sir, that's fine. We'll get to that. Sir, following with the
13 conversation, if you look at the transcript, you'll see that Karadzic
14 replies with expletives and a short time on the same page later he says:
15 "And please tell them this: Whoever won't adhere to the policies
16 of the party and implement the policies of the party but adheres to their
17 own private policies ..." and there's some other words "let them sign
18 here, let them leave their place in the municipality and we will put new
19 people there."
20 Now, sir, isn't it true that when faced with those in the SDS who
21 challenged his policies, Karadzic could and would make changes to the
22 boards in the local levels; correct?
23 A. I don't quite agree. Maybe looks like that from this dialogue,
24 but in practice it was the Main Board and the organs of the party that
25 decided. In practice it wasn't like that, but he did react like this in
1 dialogues when he was angry.
2 Q. I think we can finish this quickly before the break. Sir, if we
3 turn to page 4 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S, about halfway
4 down, page 4 in the English, we see a person named Trifko tell Karadzic
5 that a municipality seal was given to Neskovic. So you were present in
6 the room with Karadzic when this conversation took place; right?
7 A. I can't remember. I can't remember that detail.
8 Q. Is that the kind of thing you would have been doing or checking
9 on for being able to relay to Karadzic?
10 A. To check what? Excuse me. What was I supposed to check?
11 Q. If a municipality seal had been given to someone from Sarajevo
12 who had gone to another part of the Republika Srpska?
13 A. We didn't have any seals of municipalities. We only had seals of
14 the party.
15 Q. Do you have any reason to doubt that this is you in the
17 A. I said I can't remember that detail. I can only confirm that we
18 did not have seals of municipalities. We only had a seal of the party.
19 Q. Moving on. In this intercept at the bottom of page 12 in the
20 English and --
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just before we do that.
22 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry.
23 JUDGE MOLOTO: Did the municipality not use the party seal for
24 that municipality?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The seal of the party for the
1 party, yes, but municipal organs had municipal seals. And municipal
2 agencies also had their own seals or stamps.
3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Madam Bibles was asking you about municipal seals
4 and you said there were no municipal seals, and the question here that
5 Karadzic is asking is whether this document that is being handed over to
6 him bears the seal of the municipality.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let us understand each other. A
8 municipality as a sociopolitical unit is separate from a political party,
9 that is to say the SDS --
10 JUDGE MOLOTO: I understand that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and in all its documents the
12 municipality has its bodies and its seals. The party had its seal. And
13 the municipal seal of the party has nothing to do with the seal of the
15 JUDGE MOLOTO: I do understand that. And Mr. Karadzic is asking
16 this person called Trifko here, we don't know whether it is you, whether
17 this document that is being handed to him, which Trifko claims was given
18 to Neskovic, whether it bears the municipal seal. Now, you've told us
19 that the municipality has a seal and Karadzic wants to establish the
20 authenticity of this document by referring to this municipal seal to see
21 where it comes from. In any case the point is earlier you said there
22 were no municipal seals, now you say there are. So which of the two is
23 actually correct?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I didn't understand you at
25 first. It's true that the municipal organisation of the SDS may have a
1 seal, but it was not a seal of the municipality. The municipality has
2 its own seal, it's a sociopolitical community. Here we are talking about
3 the political party.
4 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.
5 Madam Bibles was asking about the seal of the municipality not of
6 the party.
7 MS. BIBLES: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But she also wasn't [Overlapping speakers] --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm again, we did not have a
10 municipal seal.
11 JUDGE MOLOTO: Yeah.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.
13 MS. BIBLES: I was overly optimistic about finishing this
14 section. Perhaps this would be a good time to take a break.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll take a break and we'll resume at 20
16 minutes to 2.00. You may follow the usher.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
21 into the courtroom, Mr. Ivetic, you in your e-mail this morning you said
22 that adjudicated fact 80 was denied. Now --
23 MR. IVETIC: I can correct that. I believe it was reformulated.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Reformulated --
25 MR. IVETIC: Denied as formulated and then reformulated in
1 Your Honour's first decision on adjudicated facts.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now then there's no misunderstanding about
3 this matter.
4 MS. BIBLES: And if I may --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Bibles.
6 MS. BIBLES: -- to save time, thank you, we could go to the
7 bottom of page 12 in the English of this document and page 9 in the
8 B/C/S -- or perhaps we can't. Never mind.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 MS. BIBLES:
11 Q. Sir, we'll now move a little further in this conversation to page
12 12 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S. And, sir, we see down at the
13 bottom the page in the English, and I'm not sure frankly which portion of
14 the page in English, where it's suggested to Karadzic that he should
15 disband the board and appoint new people. Do you see that, sir?
16 A. [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE ORIE: We did not receive interpretation.
18 MS. BIBLES:
19 Q. It doesn't appear the witness's microphone is on.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then ...
21 Yes, now it seems to be on. I see at least now the red light.
22 Could you please repeat your --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the page that is in front of me
24 in the language that I understand, there isn't my name indicating that I
25 am communicating with anyone.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, that wasn't the question.
2 MS. BIBLES:
3 Q. Sir, you're not speaking here, we're not looking for your words.
4 But if you look at the middle of the page I believe it's Srdjo is
5 speaking and he's tell -- he suggests to Karadzic that he should disband
6 the board and appoint I believe it's ten people.
7 A. Srdjo is speaking --
8 Q. You see that?
9 A. I do, yes. I can see it now. I can see that it's Srdjo
10 speaking. I first understood that it was me speaking. Srdjo was the
11 official in Prijedor and he's suggesting to the president that a decision
12 should be taken by the party board. This is just a suggestion that Srdjo
13 makes in his conversation with Radovan Karadzic.
14 Q. Sir, are you aware that on the very next day, on 11 September
15 1991, Simo Miskovic and Mr. Stakic are elected as president and
16 vice-president of the SDS Assembly in Prijedor?
17 A. Yes.
18 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I would tender 20251.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 MS. BIBLES: We can tender the transcripts, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You just want to tender the transcripts, but then of
23 course we have a surrogate sheet at this moment in e-court so that should
24 be adapted first.
25 And, Mr. Stojanovic, attention was just paid to the text, the
1 words spoken, not to the intercept itself, the audio. Not having any
2 objections means that you do not challenge the transcript presenting the
3 words spoken in the intercept itself?
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you already reserve a number
6 for the transcript in both languages and that a decision on admission
7 will be taken once the audio has been separated from it.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Reserved number for document currently with
9 65 ter number 20251 receives number P6902, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes and that number is reserved once we have the
11 material uploaded as they should be uploaded.
12 MS. BIBLES: Thank you. And if we could have 65 ter 7101 now.
13 Q. And, sir, we'll briefly look at these. These are the minutes of
14 the SDS Assembly meeting in Prijedor on 11 September 1991.
15 MS. BIBLES: And if we can actually go to the last page now which
16 I believe is page 5 in the English -- excuse me, page 4 in the English
17 and page 5 in the original.
18 Q. Sir, we see the newly elected Simo Miskovic address the Assembly.
19 We also see an individual who I want to ask you about. It's described in
20 the English transcript as Nesovic who is there from the Sarajevo SDS
21 Executive Board. Would you agree that this would actually be
22 Mr. Neskovic?
23 A. Yes, Radomir Neskovic.
24 Q. Thank you. And, sir, you see the description saying that the
25 work of the local boards is central to the whole structure of the party?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you would agree that that was in fact the relationship
3 between the local boards and the main party, that there was a
4 relationship at that time?
5 A. Other than the local boards there was also a Municipal Board.
6 The Main Board in the republic -- at the level of the republic, then you
7 also had lower organs, municipal boards and then the local boards. There
8 was the Main Board of the party and the local boards and then in between
9 those there were the municipal boards, specifically the municipal board
10 of Prijedor, for example.
11 Q. And, sir, you would agree that within the SDS these relationships
12 followed sort of the hierarchy that you've described?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 7101.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 7101 receives number P6903,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
19 MS. BIBLES:
20 Q. Sir, I'd like to discuss further the relationship, given your
21 statement, between the local individuals and Karadzic.
22 MS. BIBLES: If we could have 65 ter 20414, please.
23 Q. Sir, this is an intercepted conversation between Brdjanin and
24 Karadzic from 30 October 1991.
25 Sir, we see that Brdjanin phoned Karadzic to complain about a
1 dance being held after a number of Krajina soldiers had been killed.
2 MS. BIBLES: If we could have page 5 now in the English and page
3 4 in the B/C/S.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a clarification. On the record I see the
5 date of 30th of October 1991.
6 MS. BIBLES: Oh, I'm sorry.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the document it says 31st of October.
8 MS. BIBLES: Oh, it does. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I am
9 corrected. It would be -- this should be the 31st of October it appears.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 MS. BIBLES: Thank you for the clarification.
12 Q. We see Karadzic's reaction to this, where he states:
13 [As read] "Come on, man, do your job. Don't call me about every
14 major problem" -- I'm sorry, "minor problem." That is a major misread.
15 Returning to the quote.
16 [As read] "I am not your nanny. You have power in your hands and
17 you have presidents of municipalities through whom you can exercise this
18 power until we achieve autonomy. So you cannot, you cannot call me about
19 every detail. You should exercise power rigorously and to the fullest.
20 Not a single bird should be allowed to fly over the Krajina, and there
21 must not be a shortage of men from Krajina for the army. You must
22 establish all that ..."
23 Now, just above this section Brdjanin has said that someone asked
24 him to call Karadzic about all this. When Karadzic demands to know who
25 he says "Kupresanin." Who was Kupresanin?
1 A. Kupresanin was also an activist in the Krajina. At the beginning
2 he had formed an independent party. I cannot remember its name right
3 now, but I know that with the forming of the SDS he joined the SDS. His
4 party fused with the SDS so that there was a number of people in the
5 Krajina who were responsible for that area, including Kupresanin.
6 Q. So can we agree that Kupresanin and Brdjanin both spoke together
7 about an issue and then Karadzic was called about this issue? Can we
8 agree with that basic structure of the situation?
9 A. Well, I cannot confirm that. It's something that we can
10 assume - I don't have reliable sources in order to confirm it. It could
11 be a workable assumption but I cannot confirm it.
12 Q. Sir, wouldn't you agree or would you agree that it's obvious from
13 this and the other communications that the SDS central authorities
14 provided guidance, direction, and approval to the ARK leadership?
15 A. In the field, yes.
16 MS. BIBLES: I tender 65 ter 20414, and would be -- we'll create
17 a 20414a which would just be the transcripts for this conversation.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And the and the number already reserved for it?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Number reserved for document 20414a would be
20 P6904, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll hear from you, Ms. Bibles.
22 To be -- the witness answered the question, but where you said
23 whether it appears from this conversation and I think other
24 communications, I do not know exactly what other communications you had
25 on your mind. Apparently the witness had but ...
1 MS. BIBLES: I'm sorry, Your Honour, and I'll clarify the record.
2 I was referring to the previous conversation, the previous document that
3 I've shown him during the course of his cross-examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then you should have been used the singular
5 rather than the plural. Please proceed.
6 MS. BIBLES:
7 Q. Sir, in fact, you've previously testified that in addition to
8 Brdjanin and Kupresanin, Predrag Radic and Radislav Vukic were others
9 from the Krajina who regularly sought advice from Karadzic; correct?
10 A. Yes, they were local leadership at the Banja Luka Krajina level
11 and there was this communication. To tell the truth, I did say in my
12 written statement that there was situations when certain groups or
13 individuals behaved wilfully, not respecting the principles. And this
14 was a result of the fact that these were the first multi-party activities
15 in our country. So the direction was not quite clear, but there were
16 also ambitions which pointed to a struggle for power. So these were the
17 things that had an influence on some of these occurrences.
18 Q. And am I to understand you that in the end, when it comes to the
19 SDS central authority and local boards, that those issues or those
20 occurrences were resolved?
21 A. Most often they were resolved through dialogue when it was
22 possible to do it like that, by considering instances when Neskovic went
23 to Prijedor on behalf of the board or when individuals would go out into
24 the field in order to co-ordinate these things and define the line which
25 was laid down by the party. We always sought to resolve outstanding
1 issues in a democratic way.
2 Q. I'd now like to change topics and shift attention towards your
3 statement in D760, your Karadzic statement, paragraph 23, where you
4 indicate that Variant A and B was something that JNA generals were
5 working on but were not adopted. Sir, the Prosecution case is that these
6 instructions were issued on 19 December 1991 by the SDS Main Board and
7 they were commonly referred to as Variant A and B instructions. I'd like
8 to just go through some examples with respect to how these instructions
9 may have existed.
10 MS. BIBLES: First if the Prosecution could have P3771.
11 Q. Sir, these are the minutes for the 6th meeting of the
12 Executive Board in Kljuc held on the 23rd of December, 1991.
13 A. May I ask something? Am I permitted to put a question,
14 Your Honour?
15 JUDGE ORIE: You're not. If at the end of your statement you
16 would like to add something which is important, then you have an
17 opportunity to do so, but you should listen to questions and answer
18 them -- unless it is a question of a practical kind such as: Could I
19 have a hard copy of my statement or something like that, that's okay.
20 But not about the substance of your testimony.
21 MS. BIBLES:
22 Q. Thank you. Sir --
23 A. I actually wanted to ask which Executive Board? You said
24 "Executive Board meeting." Which Executive Board? Whose
25 Executive Board?
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's --
2 MS. BIBLES:
3 Q. Thank you. It's the 6th meeting of the executive committee of
4 the SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc held on the 23rd of December, 1991.
5 A. All right. Okay. Thank you.
6 Q. Now on page 1 in both versions, down where it says AD-1 it
8 "Veljko Kondic informed the meeting of the instructions for the
9 organisation and activities of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 All organs will be required to work in accordance with the instructions.
11 Whoever is not ready to fulfil his duties should say so immediately and
12 it will not be held against him."
13 And then if we go down further on the page in English and I
14 believe it's on the next page in the original, right above the
15 composition of the Crisis Staff, the document's reference is Kondic again
16 as stating:
17 "That means that all suggestions and tasks from the instructions
18 are accepted in their entirety."
19 They then go forward and set up a Crisis Staff and describe its
20 membership. Sir, were you aware that the Kljuc SDS executive committee
21 was acting on these 19 December 1991 instructions?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. BIBLES: We'll move on then to P3773.
25 Q. Sir, these are the minutes of a meeting of the Prijedor Municipal
1 Board of the SDS on 27 December 1991. We see on page 1 in both versions
2 under the title "proceedings" that Miskovic, president of the Prijedor
3 SDS Municipal Board read out the instructions forwarded to the Prijedor
4 SDS Municipal Board by the Assembly of the Serbian People of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It then states:
6 "Since there were two versions, only version II which is relevant
7 for Prijedor municipality was read out.
8 "Having read out all of the items in sections A and B of version
9 II, Miskovic explained what had been done so far with respect to the
11 And, sir, if we look to the bottom in English - and I am not sure
12 in the B/C/S I just realised - it appears on the same page, we see the
13 words "reasons and functions were stated for the establishment of the
14 municipal Crisis Staff and local staffs on territory of the
16 Sir, as secretary of the Executive Board of the SDS, a member of
17 the Main Board, were you aware that the Prijedor SDS Municipal Board was
18 acting according to these instructions?
19 A. No, because you can see in one paragraph it says that this is the
20 Assembly of the Serbian people. The Assembly is a state organ, whereas I
21 have a party function. I said in my statement that I never attended any
22 sessions of organs that adopted these variants, and I also said that no
23 organ reviewed or recorded or put on its agenda or protocol or put a seal
24 or signed any of these variants. I don't know if the Assembly of the
25 Serbian people adopted anything; that could have happened without my
1 knowledge. Because you can see in item 1 of the agenda it says the
2 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. Sir, in your statement you indicate that Variant A and B
4 instructions never came to fruition. Having seen these documents, do you
5 change your position on that? Do you believe that, in fact, the Variant
6 A and B instructions came into being and were acted upon?
7 A. I said in my statement that the organs of the Serbian Democratic
8 Party, i.e., the Main Board, the Executive Board, the commissions and
9 committees did not officially review this material. Had they been
10 considering this material, this would be something that would be on
11 record, it would be signed and recorded in the protocol. This is what I
12 said in my statement which I signed and that I stand behind.
13 Q. Sir, if these were secret instructions at the time, wouldn't you
14 agree that they would not have gone through the formal process that you
16 A. It would have gone through the formal process but it would have
17 been marked as confidential or secret. I did not deny hearing of it. As
18 it says in my statements, I did hear that there was some talk about
19 something like that, but I did also say that I did not attend any
20 meetings where the party organs would be adopting something like that and
21 I never heard of such a thing.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But, Witness, am I -- I'm slightly confused now.
23 You said -- you earlier said: Well, this document says it is the
24 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But the document
25 itself is from the SDS, which is a party. And I think in your statement
1 you said: None of the party bodies discussed or adopted this document.
2 Now, there clearly seems to be a discussion or at least it's part of a
3 meeting of the party, not -- this is not an assembly, a state organ, this
4 is a party meeting. So I'm a bit confused about your explanation. Could
5 you assist me?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I reacted in relation
7 to the document in front of me which states that in item 1 that the
8 implementation of decisions and positions taken by the Assembly of the
9 Serbian people of B&H. So that's what it says in the document. The
10 Assembly of the Serbian people referred to in item 1. It says:
11 "By the Assembly of the Serbian people ..."
12 This is what my reaction was in relation to. I cannot discuss
13 documents of the Assembly; I wasn't a member of it. But I said earlier
14 and now that organs of the Serbian Democratic Party as a party never
15 looked at these documents at any meetings that I'm aware of and I should
16 be aware of all of them. I did hear rumours about this perhaps coming
17 under consideration, but I did not ever take part in anything like that.
18 I hope that I was clear.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you said that none of the party bodies
20 discussed or adopted this document. Now, for the part of adopted I would
21 agree with you that this document says that the instructions were
22 forwarded to the SDS Municipal Board by the Assembly of the Serbian
23 people of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But it's clear, isn't it, that during
24 this meeting, which is a party meeting, because it reads at the top
25 "Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and it's a meeting
1 of that party where these instructions were introduced, explained, action
2 was taken upon them. So that is slightly different from what you said:
3 Well, we never discussed or adopted that. Would you agree that this is
4 apparently a subject of what was discussed in this meeting?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I repeat that I stand
6 by my previous statement, and if you have any evidence pointing in the
7 direction of any organs of the SDS considering this issue, then please
8 put it before me.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the implementation seems to be part of what
10 was discussed at this meeting. So to that extent I would say that
11 evidence of that, understood in that way, is at this moment in front of
12 you on your screen.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But it is not stated anywhere
14 in this document that these were documents of the Serbian Democratic
15 Party or showing that these documents, these texts, were adopted by any
16 organs of the SDS.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, at this time I'm mindful of the clock.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Could you give us any idea as to how much time you would still
22 need tomorrow?
23 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I anticipate needing about somewhere
24 between 30 and 40 minutes. I'll finish in the first session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You would then stay within the assessment of the
2 Mr. Komad, we'll adjourn for the day. We would like to see you
3 back tomorrow morning and we expect that your testimony will be concluded
4 tomorrow morning. We would like to see you back at 9.30 in the morning
5 in this same courtroom, but I first want to instruct you that you should
6 not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you
7 have given today or whether that is testimony which you will give
8 tomorrow. So speak or communicate with no one about your testimony. You
9 may now follow the usher.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 MS. BIBLES: Your Honour, I've been advised that 65 ter 20414a or
12 P6904 is now in e-court.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then, Madam Registrar, you certainly know
15 what number had been reserved for that.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It was number P6904 reserved for 20414a.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then it now having been uploaded, P6904 is admitted
18 into evidence.
19 We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the
20 11th of November, 9.30 in the morning.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of
23 November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.