Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28019

 1                           Monday, 10 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

12             MR. IVETIC:  We are, Your Honours, and it would be

13     Mr. Tomislav Puhalac.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could the witness be escorted into the

15     courtroom.

16             Meanwhile I use the time to deal with some matters.  The first is

17     associated exhibit D534 associated to the statement of Stevan Veljovic.

18             During the testimony of Stevan Veljovic document D534 was MFI'd

19     pending a verification of its translation.  The Defence has contacted

20     CLSS and received a version of the translation identical to the one

21     already in e-court.  The Chamber hereby admits D534 into evidence.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Puhalac.  Before you give

24     evidence, the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration, the text

25     of which is now handed out to you.

Page 28020

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  TOMISLAV PUHALAC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Puhalac.  Please be seated.

 6             Mr. Puhalac, you will first be examined by Mr. Ivetic, you'll

 7     find him to your left.  Mr. Ivetic is a member of the Defence team of

 8     Mr. Mladic.

 9             You may proceed.

10             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

11                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic:

12        Q.   Good day, sir.  Can I ask you to please first state your full

13     name for the record.

14        A.   Tomislav Puhalac.

15             MR. IVETIC:  I would now like to take a look at 1D4400 in

16     e-court.

17        Q.   Now, sir, while we have that on the screen this is a written

18     statement from the Karadzic trial.  I would like to first ask you if you

19     recall giving this statement to the Defence team of Mr. Karadzic?

20        A.   I do.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can turn to the last page of the document.

22        Q.   There is a signature on this page.  Can you tell us whose

23     signature that is?

24        A.   Mine.

25        Q.   After signing this statement in the Karadzic trial, did you have

Page 28021

 1     a chance last week to read the same with me to verify if everything is

 2     correctly recorded therein?

 3        A.   I did.

 4        Q.   Now, if we can turn to paragraph 2 of your statement which is to

 5     be found on the first page in both versions.  In the second paragraph,

 6     sir, do you have any corrections in relation to the location names

 7     listed?

 8        A.   I do.  Sokolac should not read Sokoldju [phoen] but

 9     Sokolu [phoen] with an L.  It should read in Sokolac.

10        Q.   Thank you, sir.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  In English it makes no

12     difference.

13             MR. IVETIC:

14        Q.   And, sir, I note that the Serb states the second location as

15     being Lukavica, whereas the English says Lukavac.  Could you please tell

16     us which of these names is correct for the location of the Central

17     National Bureau?

18        A.   The correct is Lukavica.  Lukavac is a different place in

19     Central Bosnia.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where's the Sokolac in paragraph 2 anyway?

22             MR. IVETIC:  It's not it's Sokoc in English, S-o-k-o-c, that's

23     the error that's been corrected.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The fourth line from the bottom of paragraph 2.

25             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can turn to page 6 in English and page 3

Page 28022

 1     in the Serbian.

 2        Q.   In the upper third of paragraph 12 I see here listed an

 3     individual who is said to be from Serbia that is reflected as being in

 4     the English "Dzindzic," whereas the Serb has the same individual being

 5     called "Dzidic," and I'd like to ask you which is the correct

 6     identification of the individual brought into the MUP from Serbia?

 7        A.   Dzidic.

 8        Q.   And just to clarify, what was his ethnicity?  Could you tell us

 9     what was the ethnicity of this individual with a last name Dzidic from

10     Serbia?

11        A.   Bosniak.

12             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could turn to page 8 in the English and

13     page 4 in the Serbian.

14        Q.   At the bottom of paragraph 16, I again see the word Sokoc,

15     S-o-k-o-c, as a place name.  Does this also need to be corrected as

16     you've already identified?

17        A.   Yes, it's Sokolac.

18        Q.   Now, sir, apart from these few corrections that we have gone

19     through this morning, do you stand by the rest of your written statement

20     as being accurate?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And insofar as you have taken the solemn declaration today, if I

23     were to ask you the same questions today would your answers be the same

24     as in the statement and would they be truthful?

25        A.   They would.

Page 28023

 1             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender the document 1D0440 as

 2     the next public exhibit.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4400 receives number D758,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

 9             I have a short summary to read for the public, and it begins as

10     follows.

11             The witness joined the SDB, state security department, of the

12     SRBiH in 1977 and thereafter worked in various functions of that state

13     department.  At the outbreak of the war, he was in the department for the

14     prevention of drug abuse.  From the beginning of the war until 2005, he

15     worked in the CNB, the Central National Bureau of the Republic of Srpska.

16             Per the witness, the Croat HDZ and Muslim SDA coalition within

17     the BiH MUP did everything they could to discriminate against Serb

18     members and to prevent their involvement in the decision-making process

19     and sensitive work of the SDB and the MUP.

20             This same coalition created a space for the formation of

21     paramilitary units in the MUP, including criminal armed formations.  The

22     Muslim state leadership then organised the arming of paramilitary and

23     para-state organs with illegal weapons.

24             The BiH MUP began mobilising and training reserve members who

25     were loyal to the SDA, while notorious criminals were given MUP

Page 28024

 1     credentials and these persons began harassing Serb members of the SDB.

 2     The witness himself was stopped in Bistrik by heavily armed criminals

 3     wearing green berets who took away his official pistol and threatened to

 4     kill him in front of his family.  When he reported this to the Sarajevo

 5     CJB, they refused to undertake any measures.

 6             Employment of Serbs in the BiH SDB was discontinued in early

 7     April 1992 and they were expelled from Sarajevo, their apartments broken

 8     into and plundered, and those that stayed in Sarajevo tortured or killed.

 9             And that completes the summary and I'd like to move on now to

10     some additional questions I have.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

12             MR. IVETIC:

13        Q.   Sir, I'd like to take a look at paragraph 4 of your statement

14     which will be found on page 1 in the Serb and page 2 in the English

15     versions.  Here in this paragraph you identify a Mr. Branko Kvesic, a

16     Croat who became head of the SDB.  Did he remain in that position the

17     entire duration of the war?

18        A.   No, in the beginning of the war he left Sarajevo and together

19     with some other staff he went to Mostar.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is he Branko or Brane?

21             MR. IVETIC:

22        Q.   Is he Branko or Brane?

23        A.   I'm not sure.  I believe he was Branko Kvesic.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now if we can look at paragraph 7 of your statement which

25     is on page 3 in the English and page 2 in the Serb, here you make

Page 28025

 1     reference to "verified information" on the establishment of paramilitary

 2     and parastate organisation by the Bosnian Muslim state leadership.  Can

 3     you be more precise as to what type of verified information you are

 4     relying upon here?

 5        A.   In the period of the end of 1991 and early 1992, I was relying on

 6     my personal observations and those of my colleagues.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you, given your position within

 8     the Serb national security service, did your service ever have an office

 9     or an officer in Trnovo during 1992?

10        A.   No, we did not have an organised section or a representative in

11     Trnovo.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I'd like to now call up Exhibit P6889 in e-court.

14        Q.   Now, sir -- I'll wait for the English - this document on its face

15     says that it is a report and -- on the activities and operation of the

16     Trnovo SDS municipal board from the period of 01 January to 31st May

17     1992.  Now, first looking at the first page of the report and the header,

18     can you tell us if this follows the standard format for a report that you

19     would expect from your service, your organisation ?

20        A.   No, this is not a document from our service, the one that I

21     worked in.

22             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can look at the last page in both

23     languages.

24        Q.   The report, the one signed, has at the bottom the author listed

25     in the Serbian as Odjeljenje SDB Trnovo.  What comment can you make about

Page 28026

 1     this formulation of the entity that is stated as being the author of this

 2     document?

 3        A.   That entity did not exist and this is not a document of any

 4     section of the SDB Trnovo.  I mean, considering that Trnovo belonged to

 5     the Sarajevo centre where I worked, it's not a document from that

 6     institution.

 7        Q.   What acronym was used for your organisation during 1992?

 8        A.   Well, beginning with April it was SNB, the national security

 9     service.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, one more thing to note.  I read the

12     Serbian title because the English translation has "State Security

13     Service," whereas the Serb original has the acronym "SDB."  So I would

14     bring that to Your Honour's attention.  I don't know whether we need to

15     have this document revised to have the translation reflect the original

16     or not, but I think it's pretty apparent on the face of the document the

17     acronym.  And --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say that the acronym is important because

19     apparently, as the witness told us, the acronym changed?

20             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you announced this as being an exhibit,

22     but it is a document MFI'd, isn't it, that -- from your --

23             MR. IVETIC:  Oh, I apologise.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- questions.  I take it that that's what was on

25     your mind when you asked the questions.

Page 28027

 1             MR. IVETIC:  That's correct.  That was on my mind.  I apologise

 2     if I misspoke.  I did not have the full notation of the document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It is a document tendered by the Prosecution.

 4             You've heard the issue about the translation.  Could you please

 5     take care that acronym and full text will be verified whether there's any

 6     cause of any problem.

 7             I do know, however, Mr. Ivetic, that sometimes explanations are

 8     not always welcomed by the Defence if it is about translations.  But

 9     we'll find a solution for it.

10             MR. IVETIC:  I appreciate that, Your Honours.  Thank you.

11             I'd like to now go to another document, 65 ter number 1D04409.

12        Q.   And when that comes up, sir, my first question to you will be to

13     ask if this is a document that you are familiar with.  And now that we

14     have that on the screen that is what I would ask you:  Is this a document

15     that you are familiar with?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And the -- well, let me ask you this way:  How is this

18     information in -- or how is this document related to the information

19     contained in paragraph 7 of your statement?

20        A.   Well, it corroborates my assertion because this document came to

21     the headquarters of the service and it was done by my colleagues.

22        Q.   And is this individual giving the statement the same person

23     that's identified in paragraph number 7?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And you've said that your colleagues took the statement.  Are you

Page 28028

 1     familiar with how the statement was obtained from this individual?

 2        A.   Well, at the time when he was stopped an interview was made and

 3     this information was collected.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  And if we can turn to page 4 of the original.

 5        Q.   It appears to be a handwritten version giving the same text in

 6     Serbian, and I'd like to ask you:  Do you know how the handwritten copy

 7     came about in relation to the taking of the statement from this

 8     individual?

 9        A.   The person wrote it.

10        Q.   When you say "the person," could you please -- are you talking

11     about your colleagues or the individual identified in the statement?

12        A.   I assume -- actually, I know and I saw it at the time that this

13     draft was handed over.  It was done by the person in question, the person

14     that is mentioned in my statement.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document into

17     evidence at this time as the next available exhibit number.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  The Prosecution

19     objects that there hasn't been adequate foundation laid for this

20     document.  If you look at the document itself, it lacks any stamp or

21     official markation and has no signature and the witness's evidence does

22     not lay a sufficient foundation otherwise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Paragraph 7 of the witness's statement identifies a

25     confession by a named individual.  I have presented it to the witness and

Page 28029

 1     he has identified personal knowledge of this document and it being the

 2     basis for his evidence in paragraph 7.  So I think that the foundation

 3     has been established.  I -- I mean, the Prosecution is correct that there

 4     is no signature and there is no heading, but that doesn't affect the

 5     admission of the document.  It would go towards weight or other

 6     considerations.

 7             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, the witness's evidence is that he

 8     is familiar with the document, that it was done by his colleagues, and

 9     that the interview was made and the information was collected.  He says

10     that the person wrote it and he saw the document.  This is not any

11     information about the making of the document, it's not information about

12     how the interview was conducted, how it was collected.  It's -- it's

13     visually seeing the document.  It doesn't really provide much more

14     information about the document itself.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider the admission of this

16     document.  Meanwhile, it will be MFI'd.

17             Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4409 receives number D759,

19     Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D759 is marked for identification.

21             Mr. Ivetic, if you introduce again a document like this one, it

22     took me a while to find out what you were talking about because you asked

23     the witness whether he was familiar with it, you apparently are familiar

24     with it, but what it was, it took me at least a couple of minutes to --

25             MR. IVETIC:  I apologise.

Page 28030

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- quickly glancing through it what it was.

 2     Therefore, I want to re-read also your questions and the answers when put

 3     at the time when I was still figuring out what I was looking at.

 4             MR. IVETIC:  That's fair, Your Honour, I have no problem with

 5     that.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I just wanted to say maybe we might try to check

 9     the translation here because from my limited observation of what's

10     happening here, the handwritten statement says 19th March 1956 - if I'm

11     reading that correctly - the typewritten line says 1953 as the date of

12     birth.  So I'm not quite sure whether there may or may not be other

13     mistakes or differences between the statements.

14             MR. IVETIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.  So perhaps it is best

15     then to submit the handwritten one for translation by CLSS or

16     verification of the translation by CLSS.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, where does the document originate from?

18     That's often an important --

19             MR. IVETIC:  It was an exhibit in the Karadzic proceedings used

20     with this witness, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but where does it come from?

22             MR. IVETIC:  That I don't know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you serious in saying that you are relying on

24     a -- such an underlying document, a document where you could guess that

25     the Prosecution may have further questions on its origin, and that you

Page 28031

 1     say:  Well, it's from the Karadzic Defence.  You have not verified, you

 2     have not asked any further questions.

 3             MR. IVETIC:  Well, when it's authenticated from by a witness from

 4     the service in two trials, I believe I am justified in relying upon that

 5     authentication, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you can do whatever you want of course.  The

 7     only thing I'm saying to you is that if there is a document which, from

 8     its appearance and where the witness is not -- well, authenticated,

 9     he's -- he says something about it but some of the questions put by

10     Ms. MacGregor, of course, are questions you would expect.  And I would

11     have foreseen that rather than to explain that I would rely on what was

12     done in another case.

13             But if you have any further information on it, the Chamber would

14     certainly consider that as well once shared with the Prosecution in its

15     decision on admission or nonadmission.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And, again, Your Honours, paragraph 7 of the

18     witness's statement details the taking of this statement.  So that

19     is its -- that would be the -- all I can offer at this moment in terms of

20     additional information.  If I may proceed, I do have a few other

21     questions --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just re-reading paragraph 7 to see whether...

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps -- I may have a different understanding of

25     what details are.  Let's proceed -- but Judge Fluegge --

Page 28032

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to put a question to the witness.

 2             Sir, did you ever meet Senad Memic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who stopped him and conducted an interview with

 5     him?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police forces of the Ilidza

 7     police station and the interview was conducted by members of the national

 8     security service.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you give me a name?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  There are

11     names of people who worked there, but I don't know who specifically

12     drafted the document.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Ivetic.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Sir, my last category of questions for you will be to ask if your

17     agency had information about the activities of the BiH MUP in forming the

18     Seve unit?

19        A.   Yes, we had information that such a unit had been formed and was

20     operating illegally.

21        Q.   Who, according to your information, in the BiH MUP was behind the

22     formation and operation of the Seve unit?

23        A.   The AID top officials.

24        Q.   The transcript does not reflect the organisation.  Could you

25     please spell out the acronyms of the organisation just so that we're

Page 28033

 1     clear as to who you are referencing.

 2        A.   AID.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And you identified that they were operating illegally.

 4     What sorts of illegal activities was the Seve unit involved in?

 5        A.   According to our information they were supposed to incite unrest

 6     and destabilise the situation.

 7        Q.   And do you have any specifics of how they were trying to incite

 8     unrest and destabilise the situation?

 9        A.   There is one case that I mentioned in my statement, how two

10     members of the unit were killed, attempting to cause unrest in

11     Montenegro.  They were killed due to unprofessional handling, and then

12     later their service IDs were found on them.

13        Q.   Okay.  And have I exhausted your recollection of other specifics

14     of the activities of the Seve unit?

15        A.   Information came from a number of sections that the unit was

16     operating, and then later the information was confirmed in some newspaper

17     articles as well as by assertions and the recollection of some persons of

18     Muslim ethnicity who were in Sarajevo at the time.  A lot of material on

19     this is being published in the most recent period, and you can read

20     information about this in statements that are given to the press by

21     people in Sarajevo.

22        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir, for answering my questions.

23             MR. IVETIC:  I have no further questions at this time,

24     Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 28034

 1             Mr. Ivetic, before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to

 2     cross-examine the witness, if the statement, the confession, was made

 3     after a truckload of -- or at least a truck with a lot of weapons in it

 4     was seized, there must be more material, isn't it, that records the --

 5     this event, I mean apart from an isolated statement and confession?

 6     It's -- certainly it could well assist in determining the authenticity

 7     and the background of this document if such an event would have been

 8     traced, dates known, how much weaponry.  That would give a background to

 9     this document which would certainly help, perhaps, in better establishing

10     its authenticity.  So it's just a suggestion.

11             And I'm also looking at the Prosecution in this respect.  It

12     would assist the Chamber if we would know more about the police action

13     taken which resulted in this document.

14             Ms. MacGregor, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I am ready.  I'm going

16     to bring up my podium.  But as I do that, if I can ask the court officer

17     to show the exhibit marked MFI'd as 6889.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And, Mr. Puhalac, you'll be cross-examined by

19     Ms. MacGregor.  You find her to your right.  Ms. MacGregor is counsel for

20     the Prosecution.

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. MacGregor:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Puhalac.  I've asked the Court to show again a

23     document that Mr. Ivetic asked you about.  You recognise the document on

24     the screen in front of you?

25        A.   No, I didn't have the opportunity to see the document before.  If

Page 28035

 1     you're thinking about the earlier period.

 2        Q.   You were shown this document during your preparation for your

 3     testimony today by the Defence counsel; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 5        Q.   Other than counsel showing you this document during that

 6     preparation, you've never seen this document before; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that is correct.  I did not see it before.

 8        Q.   You have no personal knowledge about the creation of this

 9     document; is that correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. MacGREGOR:  I no longer need the document on the screen.

13        Q.   Now just for the record, you testified as a Defence witness in

14     the Karadzic trial in March 2013; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   And according to your statement, which is now in evidence, you

17     were not a member of any political party during the war but you joined

18     the SDS in 2008; is that right?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And not only are you a member, but in November 2012 you were

21     elected as a member -- you were elected to the position of president of

22     the Rogatica municipality for the SDS; is that right?

23        A.   No, I was not elected as president of the SDS but as the head of

24     the municipality, as a candidate of several parties.  Another person was

25     at the head of the SDS.  I was just a member of the SDS.

Page 28036

 1        Q.   What's your current position within the municipality?

 2        A.   The chief of the or the head of the municipality.

 3        Q.   And still as a member of the SDS; is that correct?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I want to briefly turn to your time in Sarajevo at

 6     the beginning of the war.  Now, you left Sarajevo with your family on

 7     April 1st, 1992; is that right?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   According to your statement at paragraph 15, for the record,

10     that's Exhibit D758, according to that paragraph after the 1st of April

11     you tried on several occasions to return to your MUP office in Sarajevo.

12     Your statement refers to an incident in Vraca where Serb police were

13     fired on when they tried to enter the school of internal affairs

14     building.  So that incident you're describing at Vraca, that occurred on

15     April 4th; is that right?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   In the Karadzic trial you testified:

18             "After what happened on the 4th of April at Vraca, I stopped

19     trying to go back to the BH MUP ..."

20             Sir, is it correct that as of 4 April 1992, you were no longer in

21     Sarajevo but in Sokolac?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And from that date until the end of the war, you were never back

24     in Bosnian-held Sarajevo?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 28037

 1        Q.   And all the evidence that you've provided about events in

 2     Sarajevo after the 4th of April is based on information that you received

 3     from others; is that right?

 4        A.   For the period up to April I'm speaking about personal

 5     observations, but from April onwards, since I was working in a service

 6     that was based in the eastern part of Sarajevo, in the building of the

 7     Energoinvest company to be more precise, I am testifying about assertions

 8     and information that came from people who were leaving Sarajevo as well

 9     as based on other information such as radio communications and so on.

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I please have MFI D759.

11        Q.   Sir, I'm bringing back to the screen the statement of Mr. Memic

12     that you discussed during your direct examination.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D759?

14             MS. MacGREGOR:  D759 I believe.  Yes.  The document -- the

15     correct document that I'm referring to is on the screen.

16        Q.   Sir, you were not in Sarajevo, as we've just established, on

17     April 14th, 1992; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, correct.

19        Q.   And you didn't see Mr. Memic make this statement; is that

20     correct?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   You don't know where he was when he provided this statement; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   I assume that it was at the Ilidza police station.

25        Q.   And you don't know how long he'd been detained before providing

Page 28038

 1     this statement; is that correct?

 2        A.   From what I can remember, he was not in custody.  The interview

 3     was conducted in agreement between the Serbian and the Bosniak side.

 4        Q.   When you testified in the Karadzic trial, you did not include

 5     knowledge about the handwritten version of this document, which today you

 6     claimed was drafted by Mr. Memic; is that correct?

 7        A.   I wasn't asked about it.  And now I see the handwritten

 8     version ...

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

10     of what he said.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat the last portion of your answer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have the handwritten

13     version in front of me at the time, and from what I can remember I think

14     that that is that version in handwriting.

15             MS. MacGREGOR:

16        Q.   Today in a response to a question from Judge Fluegge, you stated

17     that you didn't know who drafted the document, the handwritten

18     document -- excuse me, that you didn't know who drafted the document,

19     that's at page 14 of the temporary transcript from today.  So you don't

20     know who wrote this document?  You don't know based on your own personal

21     knowledge who wrote this document; is that correct?

22        A.   The statement came to the service where I was via our official

23     department.  The official department sent it.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic.

25             MR. IVETIC:  Counsel's question without the Karadzic transcript

Page 28039

 1     misstates the Karadzic proceedings, where as transcript page 35097 the

 2     question was asked:

 3             "Did you see this version in handwriting at the time?"

 4             And the answer was:

 5             "Yes."

 6             So it's incorrect that he did not demonstrate knowledge of a

 7     handwritten version existing in the Karadzic proceedings.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor.

 9             MS. MacGREGOR:  My question was about who had written the

10     handwritten version.

11             MR. IVETIC:  No it was not.  It was -- it was --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- well, could you -- exact line number.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I'll give you the exact line number.  It's page 19,

14     line number 24 through 25:

15             "When you testified in the Karadzic trial, you did not include

16     knowledge of the handwritten version of this document..."

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  My apologies, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes.  And the last part of the question was at

19     least was ambiguous.

20             Mr. Ivetic, thank you for assisting.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, as Mr. Ivetic has pointed out, you did testify

23     that you had seen the handwritten version of this statement and you've

24     just told us today that you were not asked about the handwritten version

25     of the statement when you testified in the Karadzic trial.  My underlying

Page 28040

 1     question is:  Do you have personal knowledge about who wrote the

 2     handwritten version of the statement?

 3        A.   Yes, colleagues from Ilidza sent a statement in written form, and

 4     I believe that the statement was written by the man with whom the

 5     interview was conducted.  In practice it was never the case that

 6     something would happen different than what I have just said.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor, could I ask you a question which

 8     is -- had you seen this -- who brought this document to your attention

 9     during the -- when you were interviewed by the Karadzic Defence?  Did you

10     bring it yourself?  Or did they present it to you?  Do you remember?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They presented it to me, from what

12     I can remember.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now -- and you were familiar with that

14     document already when they gave it to you during this interview?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I was.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  What's your recollection from when you saw it for

17     the first time?  When did you see it for the first time?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it was drafted, when it came

19     to Pale.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  How did it come to Pale?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] By regular mail, regular

22     circulation.  We had a section in Ilidza, not just in Ilidza.  There were

23     a number of organisational units in the Sarajevo centre area and all the

24     data poured into one point.  That's how the service was organised.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And do you have a recollection whether --

Page 28041

 1     well, let's say like whether you opened the envelope or whether it was a

 2     Sunday?  Do you have any recollection about this document, seeing this

 3     document for the first time?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document was interesting.

 5     That's why I remember.  It was notable because of the large quantity of

 6     weapons and the way they were obtained.  I don't think that I was the one

 7     who opened the envelope; that wasn't my job.  But we did analyse the

 8     document, we reviewed it, so I remember well that it arrived in this

 9     form.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What was the follow-up with Mr. Senad Memic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the interview, as far as I

12     can remember, he went home.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if a criminal report

15     was issued or not, but this document has to be somewhere in the service.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I ask you was it common that if someone

17     was arrested carrying weapons in a truck telling during an interview that

18     he had by the thousands delivered such weapons that you would just say

19     after the interview:  Thank you very much.  Please go home, go to your

20     family.  That is -- was that common practice or ... ?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it wasn't common practice.  But

22     in view of the fact that this was a turbulent, unstable period and that

23     the clashes were just starting, such concessions were made in agreement

24     between the leadership of the sides.  So it's my opinion that somebody

25     talked at a higher level or at the top MUP level or at the top political

Page 28042

 1     level, and that is why no decision was made to detain the person or hold

 2     them further.  From what I can remember, probably some important people

 3     discussed the issue and the decision was made not to initiate further

 4     proceedings as a gesture, as a gesture --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but may I ask you to -- not to tell us what you

 6     think may have happened but -- and happily enough you are clear on that.

 7     But this Chamber is primarily interested in facts rather than in

 8     opinions.  But I asked you whether it was common and you say under those

 9     circumstances such agreements were made.

10             The reason why I'm asking you this is the following:  You would

11     be -- you would like to know to whom these weapons were delivered so as

12     to be able to -- well, to do whatever, to limit the damage caused by it.

13     But that -- such follow-up interviews did not take place?  If you know;

14     if you don't know, tell us.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that the man was not held

16     for a long time.  He was released.  And I know it was a gesture of

17     goodwill to avoid deepening the conflict.  Every effort was made to avoid

18     conflict and to try to calm the situation down despite such actions.

19     That's a move made by the Serbian side in order to defuse tensions rather

20     than deepen conflict.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You said he was not detained for a long time.  Do

22     you know when he was arrested and even if not for a long time for how

23     long he was detained?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  He was brought into

25     custody, if I remember well, for 24 hours maximum.  That was the legal

Page 28043

 1     limit at the time.  That's before the decision was made to hold somebody.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you know exactly the day when he was

 3     arrested or the date?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  If I hadn't seen the

 5     date on the document I wouldn't have been able to remember.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but now having seen the date on the document,

 7     do you now remember?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot claim anything with

 9     certainty.  It would be presumptuous of me to say I remember the date.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. MacGregor -- or Judge Moloto.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I see the time.  Maybe we can do this after the

12     break.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I had forgotten about the time when I did put

14     questions to the witness which I should not have forgotten about.

15             We take a break.

16             Witness, would you please follow the usher.  We'd like to see you

17     back in 20 minutes.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness will have missed that information

20     because he had taken his earphones off already but he'll learn about it.

21     We'll take a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 11.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness I'll briefly

25     deal with another matter which is about D676 MFI'd.

Page 28044

 1             During the testimony of Branko Davidovic, document D676 was MFI'd

 2     pending an updated translation.  Both parties have since agreed upon the

 3     updated version of the translation which is Doc ID 1D09-3853, and the

 4     Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to attach the updated translation

 5     to D676 and admits D676 into evidence.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge was about to -- Judge Moloto was about

 8     to ask a question.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Puhalac, when this confession was sent to your

10     office from Sarajevo, did it come under cover of a covering letter?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you -- did you have sight of that letter?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the practice.  Not a

14     single document arrived without a letter.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And is it possible to have access to that letter,

16     for the Court to have a look at it?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's possible.  It might be

18     in the service.  I don't have it.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You were not given this when you were given this

20     document?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Because without that covering letter it's not easy

23     to determine where this letter came -- where this document came from?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 28045

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I'm not saying I know.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You're not saying you know what?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I know it arrived from where I

 4     said, but it should have an accompanying document and it did exist.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Now, this last answer of yours confuses me.  You

 6     did say yes there was a covering letter; now you say there should have

 7     been one, suggesting that you are assuming that there was one.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was a cover letter.  That

 9     was the practice and all the documents arrived with a cover letter.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, again, Mr. Puhalac, you're telling me of

11     practice.  I'm asking you if you did see the letter that accompanied this

12     specific document?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you say you don't -- you don't have access to

15     it right now?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             Can I please have the witness's statement, D758, and if we can

20     look at paragraph 3 of his statement.

21        Q.   Mr. Puhalac, I've asked the court officer to show you on the

22     screen the statement, paragraph 3 of your statement.  I'd like to draw

23     your attention to the following sentence that starts the paragraph.

24             "Considering that I was a member of the State Security Service

25     for many years and was professionally involved in collecting political

Page 28046

 1     and security-related information, I can say that I am competent to give

 2     you a quality statement regarding events in the Sarajevo-Romanija area

 3     that occurred just before the war and at the beginning of the war."

 4             In the next paragraph of your statement, paragraph 4, that's on

 5     the next page in the English, and also in paragraphs 7 and 11, which I

 6     don't need to be displayed on the screen, you give evidence about

 7     trafficking of weapons to Muslim forces in Sarajevo in the pre-war

 8     period.  And you've talked today about the same topic with regard to

 9     Mr. Memic's statement.  So you must have also known then, given your

10     position at the time in pre-war Sarajevo, that Serbs in Sarajevo were

11     also being armed in that same period, including by the police.  Did you

12     know that?

13        A.   No, I didn't know that.  At that time I lived in Sarajevo and I'm

14     only talking here about things I knew.

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  Can I please have document P3792.

16        Q.   I'm calling up a document that you were shown during your

17     Karadzic testimony.  It's a report to the Ministry of Internal Affairs by

18     Tihomir Glavas chief of the public security station in Ilidza, and the

19     report is dated 20 September 1993.

20             Now as we wait for that to come up, you're familiar with

21     Mr. Glavas; is that correct?  Sir, do you know who Mr. Glavas is?

22        A.   I met him during the war.  I don't know exactly in which period,

23     but it was when he became commander of the police station at Ilidza.

24        Q.   And you're also familiar with Tomo Kovac, commander of the Ilidza

25     police station?

Page 28047

 1        A.   Tomo Kovac I knew before the war.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can please have page 2 in both versions of

 3     the document, focusing on the second full paragraph.

 4        Q.   So in this paragraph Mr. Glavas discusses meetings organised by

 5     Tomislav Kovac in the beginning of 1991.  Reading from the document:

 6             "Aside from the obligation that Serbs gather up and prepare for

 7     war through these meetings that took place in Dobrinja, Ilidza, and

 8     Blazuj, it was also agreed that intense activity should be undertaken to

 9     arm citizens of Serbian nationality.  Armament was transported from Ravna

10     Romanija, Pale, Sokolac, Kalinovik, the village of Nedavici, the village

11     of Tosici, Hadzici, Jusuf Dzonlagic barracks, Lukavica, and Nedzarici" --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you've forgotten Trnovo.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:

14        Q.   -- "and Trnovo."

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Puhalac, according to your own words you are competent

17     to give a quality statement about events in pre-war Sarajevo, but do you

18     continue to claim that you had no knowledge in 1991 and into 1992 that

19     Serb police were involved in arming ethnic Serbs in Sarajevo?

20        A.   This looks absolutely unbelievable to me that in 1991 something

21     like this could have been happening.  I think somebody was trying to make

22     themselves look important.  I don't know to whom this document was sent,

23     but it looks like bragging.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you were asked whether you have any

25     knowledge about it.  You say "no."  There's no need to comment on what

Page 28048

 1     may have led the author of this document to write what he wrote.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  We can pull the document off the screen.

 4        Q.   Now, your statement --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one thing --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know anything about

 7     this.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you couldn't imagine that this happened in

 9     1991.  Now, the document also describes events happening in 1992,

10     including distribution of arms to Serbian people.  Would you be less

11     surprised that the MUP would have been involved in such activities in

12     1992?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people I knew from the MUP, the

14     professional staff of the MUP, I don't know that they ever armed regular

15     citizens or anyone else.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You have no knowledge about that.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can please have 65 ter 03838 brought to the

19     screen.

20        Q.   Now, sir, you're familiar with Mr. Momcilo Mandic, I assume; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   And in March 1992 he held a high position in the MUP; is that

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 28049

 1        Q.   What you see in front of you is a published interview of

 2     Mr. Mandic.

 3             MS. MacGREGOR:  And if we can please go to the second page in the

 4     English and I believe it's -- if we can look in the B/C/S version at the

 5     second page too, please.  I may need a little help -- third page.

 6        Q.   It's very difficult to see but are you able to see that in front

 7     of you, Mr. Witness?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Actually --

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, if I can have a moment.

11             Because I'm not certain that this is the correct page in the

12     B/C/S, it may be easier if I read from the English unless I can have some

13     input from some of my B/C/S-speaking colleagues.  I'm trying to focus

14     here on the end of the first paragraph on the second page in the English,

15     and if you see where it says "in what ways did you help the Serbian

16     side ..." that's the portion I will be asking the witness about.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That is not the page in B/C/S which is on the

18     screen.

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  My limited knowledge left me with that same

20     conclusion.

21        Q.   Mr. Witness --

22             MR. IVETIC:  That should be the next page, the left column, about

23     two-fourths -- three-fourths of the way down the page.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you very much, Mr. Ivetic.

25             And Ms. Stewart has shown me the same portion at the bottom left

Page 28050

 1     corner.  Thank you for your patience.

 2        Q.   Mr. Puhalac, if I can draw your attention if you see where it

 3     says "in what ways did you help the Serbian side?"  Now immediately above

 4     that there's the following sentence:

 5             "Naturally, I later sided with the Serbs and Serbian movement,

 6     helping the Serbian side however I could."

 7             And then we see the question:

 8             "In what ways did you help the Serbian side?

 9             "A. I gave them or put at their disposal official cars, I

10     recruited and admitted to the police force those Serbs proposed by

11     Radovan Karadzic and Rajko Dukic, but I also gave them some material

12     means and communications equipment.  We would even deliver weapons to

13     Serbian police stations, for example in Pale, Sokolac, et cetera.  We

14     grabbed and shared out as much as was needed."

15             Now, you've testified just now in response to Judge Orie at

16     transcript page 30:

17             "The people I knew from the MUP, the professional staff of the

18     MUP, I don't know that they ever armed regular citizens or anyone else."

19             Now, reading this interview from Mr. Mandic, do you have any

20     further reflections on whether or not you knew that members of the MUP

21     were involved in arming Serbs?

22        A.   If the question relates to this text by Mr. Mandic, where he's

23     speaking as a Serbian leader and assistant minister who was in charge of

24     supplies of weapons to the police, supplying equipment to the police, for

25     staffing in the police, he's talking about that here.  Of course this

Page 28051

 1     relates to the weapons that were at the disposal of the MUP.  Maybe he

 2     was subjective when he talks about the police station in Sokolac and

 3     Pale, but this is what it refers to as I read this document you put

 4     before me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, what you think may be the case or what you

 6     assume is what may be the case is not what we are primarily interested

 7     in.  The question was whether reading this interview, whether you have

 8     any further reflection on whether you know or do not know that members of

 9     the MUP were involved in arming Serbs.  And if I understand your answer

10     well the answer is:  No, you still, even having read this, do not know

11     anything about that.  Is that -- Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  [Microphone not activated]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- have we understood you well?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.  I did not know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

16             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I did want to raise a point.  We seem

17     to be mixing apples and oranges.  The first question was in relation to

18     arming of civilians and then this document was brought up which does not

19     mention the arming of civilians and yet the generic term "Serbs" was

20     identified for this document, which is why I didn't object because the

21     generic reference to "Serbs" could cover Serb police stations.

22             But I wanted to make clear, given Your Honour's follow-up

23     question, that this document in no way relates to the prior question by

24     Ms. MacGregor as to arming of civilians, at least not the section that

25     has been cited thus far.

Page 28052

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:

 3        Q.   One final question about this document in front of you,

 4     Mr. Puhalac.  If you see the final question on the English version and

 5     the last question on the bottom left-hand corner of the B/C/S version:

 6             "When did you start supplying the Serb side, i.e., the SDS?

 7             "A. That started around the end of 1991 and the beginning of

 8     1992 ..."

 9             Would you agree that during that period Mr. Mandic was still part

10     of the MUP?

11        A.   Yes, he was.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  I no longer need this document and at this time

14     the Prosecution is not tendering it into evidence.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you proceed with your next question.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Puhalac, in your statement you mention a 1991 order by MUP

18     minister Alija Delimustafic to mobilise reserve police forces.  Now --

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  This is at paragraph 8 for the record.

20        Q.   Now, in fact at that time ethnic Serbs were also being mobilised,

21     weren't they?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. MacGREGOR:  And if we can please see 65 ter 16864.  While we

24     wait for the document to come to the screen this is a document entitled:

25     "Instructions," it's dated 21 September, 1991, to the SDS municipal

Page 28053

 1     boards, and we see Mr. Karadzic's name at the bottom of the document.

 2        Q.   It's a short document and I'm going to read it for the record.

 3             "Mobilisation of the war time police force is underway.  There

 4     are speculations that 100 per cent of the forces are being mobilised,

 5     although republic organs can mobilise only 50 per cent.  Also, there are

 6     speculations that only Muslims are being mobilised or that Serbs are not

 7     responding to the mobilisation, which would lead to the creation of

 8     Muslim police and to circumstances for a civil war.

 9             "I request that you keep an eye on what is going on in regard to

10     the above mentioned.  Serbs are to respond to the mobilisation of reserve

11     police.

12             "Inform us on the developments."

13             Is this an example of a mobilisation instruction for Serb members

14     of the reserve police?

15        A.   I see this document for the first time.  I believe it's authentic

16     and that it was written by Mr. Karadzic.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  The Prosecution tenders 16864 into evidence,

18     Your Honours.

19             MR. IVETIC:  No objection.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 16864 receives number P6900,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P6900 is admitted.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I no longer need

25     this document.

Page 28054

 1        Q.   Your evidence is that Sarajevo in the end of April/beginning of

 2     May 1992 was filled with Green Berets armed to the teeth taking over

 3     police stations.  That's at paragraph 13 of your statement for the

 4     record.  Now, you were not in Sarajevo at that time, as we've discussed;

 5     is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, from 1 April I was not in Sarajevo.

 7        Q.   And so you must have received this information from interviews of

 8     Serbs leaving Sarajevo and other sources; is that right?

 9        A.   Which event do you mean?

10        Q.   Sarajevo was filled with Green Berets armed to the teeth taking

11     over police stations.  Did you hear about that from sources that you

12     interviewed and other sources?

13        A.   Well, that there were Green Berets around town and that they were

14     armed was obvious to every person in Sarajevo, and I also met them

15     personally at barricades and around the town with the same units.

16             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can see paragraph 13 of D758.

17        Q.   Sir, the paragraph I'm talking about specifically refers to the

18     end of April/beginning of May when you weren't there.  I'm simply trying

19     to determine where you received the information about that time-period,

20     the information about Green Berets.  You can see this statement yourself,

21     paragraph 13 of your statement.  From whom did you receive that

22     information?

23        A.   The information that Pero Petrovic, a policeman, was killed and

24     that the station was taken over by paramilitary units I received from

25     Lazar Bojanic, a man who survived by chance because he was unconscious,

Page 28055

 1     they thought him dead.  When he left Sarajevo he testified about this.

 2     That Juka Prazina took over the police hall next to the police station

 3     which was, until then, an institution of the professional police was

 4     carried by the media and masses of people who lived in Sarajevo and

 5     finally it was shown on Sarajevo TV.

 6        Q.   Did you also collect information about successful Serb operations

 7     in Sarajevo in the time-period of end of April/beginning of May?

 8        A.   Successful Serb operations?  Which ones?  I don't understand the

 9     question.

10        Q.   Operations carried out by Serb forces in Sarajevo in the

11     time-period of end of April/beginning of May, did you hear about that?

12        A.   Well, we gathered information on all security aspects.  Maybe if

13     you asked me a more specific question I could answer.  I don't know

14     exactly what you mean.

15             MS. MacGREGOR:  If I can please have Exhibit 6605.

16        Q.   Sir, this is a published copy of an interview by Miovan Bjelica,

17     president of the Executive Board of the SDS of Sokolac.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Is that a P exhibit?

19             MS. MacGREGOR:  P.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  And the B/C/S version is one page and if we can

22     have page 3 in the English.

23        Q.   In this interview Mr. Bjelica is asked:

24             "How did you arm the people?"

25             He answers:

Page 28056

 1             "Serbian Democratic Party organised all activities related to

 2     preparation and organising of people for defence.  Since we realised that

 3     there had been a great betrayal in the army in former JNA, we had to go

 4     to military depots which we assumed would not be in our possession and

 5     take weapons from them.  The SDS activist played an important role here.

 6     First we took the equipment and weapons from western Herzegovina, from

 7     Gabela which we brought to Romanija.  Then we took the equipment from

 8     Central Bosnia from Visoko, from Sarajevo municipalities which were not

 9     under our control, and our greatest success was taking the equipment and

10     weapons from Faletic."

11             Mr. Puhalac, Faletici is a weapons depot for Sarajevo; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And Mr. Bjelica continues in response to the next question:

15             "We stole it from their hands.  We agreed with then-minister of

16     defence and with a man from security of then Sarajevo Corps."

17             And the next paragraph describes the operation.

18             "We did it by night in April 1992.  There was a group of young

19     men, activists of SDS which I was leading ...  the first night took whole

20     of artillery and weapons."  And I have skipped one portion as I am

21     reading it.

22             "There was about 300 artillery tubes, from 35 to 50.000 rifles as

23     well as other equipment."  Skipping again.

24             "Severe attacks on the barracks followed.  We were helped by the

25     unit of Colonel Dragoljub Milosevic, i.e., 1st Romanija Brigade, which

Page 28057

 1     helped us on the second day ..."

 2             MS. MacGREGOR:  If we can scroll down a bit in the English

 3     version.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I think you have to move to the next page.

 5             MS. MacGREGOR:  Yeah, sorry.  If we can move to the second page.

 6        Q.   "... which helped us on the second day while we were pulling out

 7     weapons and equipment.  We brought all weapons and equipment to the

 8     territory of Romanija in three days."

 9             First of all, is that in fact a reference to Dragomir Milosevic

10     that I've just read?

11        A.   Are you asking me if that's Dragomir Milosevic?

12        Q.   Yes, would that be your understanding if you read that?

13        A.   Well, I don't know who Mr. Bjelica meant, but if you really want

14     my opinion I believe, yes, that he is thinking of him.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the factual question is:  Witness, do you

16     know any colonel by the name Dragoljub Milosevic or do you not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragoljub, no.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And Dragomir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met Dragomir Milosevic at the

20     Lukavica barracks.  I cannot remember when, but as far as I know he --

21     there was -- and that was Colonel Milosevic.  But it's Dragomir according

22     to my best recollection, not Dragoljub.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. MacGregor.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:

25        Q.   So in addition to attacks by Green Berets that you mention in

Page 28058

 1     Sarajevo at this time, there were also SDS forces assisted by the JNA

 2     lodging attacks in Sarajevo; is that correct?

 3             MR. IVETIC:  I object to the form of the question where it says

 4     assisted by the JNA.  The document actually says there was a betrayal on

 5     the part of the JNA.  The assistance is listed as a minister of defence

 6     and with a man from the security organ of the Sarajevo Corps.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

 8             Ms. MacGregor you said assisted by the JNA.  You relied on what

 9     part exactly of this document?

10             MS. MacGREGOR:  I'm relying on evidence that's been heard by the

11     Chamber, not specifically to this document --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

13             MS. MacGREGOR:  -- but to this witness I can withdraw the

14     reference to the JNA to keep it simple.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then please put your question again to the

16     witness in the way you would like to do now.

17             MS. MacGREGOR:  Sure.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   In the period of late April/early May, were you aware that SDS

19     forces were successfully lodging attacks in Sarajevo?

20        A.   This is about relocating the Faletici barracks or the weapons

21     depot.  I know that the weapons were transferred out of Faletici because

22     the barracks were blockaded and that there was some minor conflicts or

23     clashes that broke out in Faletici.  So this is the specific information

24     that I have about that.  As for who actually made the transfer, who took

25     part in that, I don't know that, but I do know that the weapons were

Page 28059

 1     moved because there was a struggle about who will actually take

 2     possession of the weapons, whether it would be the Serb forces or other

 3     forces, and I know that the weapons were moved from Faletici.  It was an

 4     official military weapons depot.

 5        Q.   Moving away from this document and we can remove it from the

 6     screen, Mr. Puhalac, my question is about your knowledge -- not from this

 7     document, your knowledge based on sources that you talked to, colleagues

 8     that you spoke to, your knowledge about the conditions in Sarajevo in

 9     late April/beginning of May 1992.  Now, were you aware that during that

10     time-period Serb forces - and I'm referring to the Serb TO, the MUP, the

11     Serb-controlled JNA - that they effected a siege of Sarajevo during that

12     time-period.  My question is just:  Were you aware of that?

13        A.   The barricades were erected on both sides.  The ring around

14     Sarajevo was closed by the forces from Sarajevo which set up their own

15     check-points and then the Serb side also placed its check-points facing

16     those.  So you could say that Sarajevo was blocked and that check-points

17     were set up by both of the sides, the check-points faced each other.  In

18     such a situation where one side was in fear of the other and both feared

19     that clashes would break out, the check-points were set up by each of the

20     sides.  That's the truth.

21             MS. MacGREGOR:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. MacGregor.

23             Mr. Ivetic.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I have no questions for the witness.

25     I would only thank him again for answering my previous questions.

Page 28060

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Since the Bench has no questions for the witness

 2     either, this concludes your testimony in this court, Mr. Puhalac.  We

 3     would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and

 4     for having answered all the questions that were put to you by the parties

 5     and put to you by the Bench.  You are excused and I wish you a safe

 6     return home again.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The statement of the witness indeed needs

10     verification.  I saw that, for example, the portion read about

11     Juka Prazina taking over a police station that the year is incorrectly

12     stated.  The original says "1992, 4th of April"; the translation says

13     "1994."  There it should be carefully done.

14             MR. IVETIC:  I will send -- I will have CLSS notified to take a

15     look at the original and verify it --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. IVETIC:  -- those and any other corrections.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we will wait for the next witness to enter the

19     courtroom and that would be, Mr. Ivetic -- or Mr. Stojanovic, I see you

20     are ready.  Your next witness is ... ?

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I will be

22     questioning the next witness and the next witness will be Trifko Komad.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll wait for him to enter the courtroom.

24             MS. MacGREGOR:  Your Honours, if I may take your leave.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, is it you who will cross-examine

Page 28061

 1     Mr. Komad?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  I'll be cross-examining this

 3     witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I use the time to deal with another matter

 5     which is the redacted witness statement of Witness Ratomir Maksimovic,

 6     65 ter 1D04058a.  The Chamber notes that the redacted version of this

 7     witness statement of Ratomir Maksimovic has been uploaded into e-court.

 8     The unredacted version of the witness's statement, which bears

 9     65 ter number 1D04058, was MFI'd and assigned number D686 during the

10     testimony of the witness.

11             The Chamber would like to know if the Prosecution has any

12     objections to the replacement of the unredacted version of the statement

13     with the redacted version and therefore to the admission of the document

14     bearing 65 ter 1D04058a.

15             If you want to think about it, Ms. Bibles, you have an

16     opportunity to do so.

17             MS. BIBLES:  We'll provide an answer after the next break,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Ivetic, just going back to the previous witness, I saw that

21     the last paragraph of his statement was redacted.  I don't know whether

22     that was redacted already in the Karadzic case or --

23             MR. IVETIC:  It was.  That's the redaction that was put in place

24     by the Karadzic case based upon a prior objection by the Prosecution in

25     that case and an order from the Chamber in that case.

Page 28062

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have -- of course we have no idea what

 2     happened in the Karadzic case.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon -- no, good morning still, Mr. Komad.

 5     Well, the Judges will finalise their struggle on whether 20 minutes to

 6     12.00 is morning or afternoon soon --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Komad.  Before you give evidence

 9     the Rules require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is now

10     handed out to you and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn

11     declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  TRIFKO KOMAD

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Komad.  Mr. Komad,

17     you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll find him to your

18     left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   I would like to ask you to slowly say your correct first and last

25     name for the transcript.

Page 28063

 1        A.   My name is Trifko Komad.

 2        Q.   Mr. Trifko, did you at one point provide a statement to the

 3     Defence of Radovan Karadzic, a written statement?

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 6     look at document 65 ter 1D016 -- 1D04474.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could all extra microphones be switched off,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we understand whether these are two or one

10     document, 1D016 and then 1D04474?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a supplement to

12     the statement that the witness gave to General Mladic's Defence and that

13     is 1D01652.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  That's now a third document you are mentioning,

15     Mr. Stojanovic.  You mentioned 1D016 and then 1D044 -- 474.  Now you

16     didn't -- been mentioning 1D01652.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, I corrected

18     myself because I asked for 1D04474.  There is no document that begins

19     with 06, there is no 1D016, and I corrected myself and gave the correct

20     number.

21        Q.   Mr. Komad, in front of you you can see the statement.  I would

22     now like us to look at the last page of the document.

23        A.   Yes, I see it.

24        Q.   And now can you look at the last page of the document.  Does

25     it -- does this page show a handwritten date and a signature and were

Page 28064

 1     these put there by you in your hand?

 2        A.   Yes, that is my signature and my handwriting.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  When we went through the document while we were

 4     preparing for your testimony before this Tribunal and today when you gave

 5     the solemn declaration, would you still stand by the answers that you

 6     gave then to the questions by the Radovan Karadzic Defence?

 7        A.   Yes, I stand by what I said to them.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

10     tender document 65 ter 1D04474.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

12             Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4474 receives number D760,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Trifko, did you also at one point in time provide a statement

18     to the Mladic Defence, replying to questions that were put to you about

19     your knowledge about specific events that you were asked about?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at 65 ter

23     document 1D01652 in e-court, please.

24        Q.   Mr. Trifko, is your signature also on this document that we see

25     now?

Page 28065

 1        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last

 4     page of the document.

 5        Q.   Is the signature and the handwritten date on this page also

 6     yours?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  While preparing for your testimony, did you tell us

 9     that you believed that it would be necessary to supplement your statement

10     with a few words in order for it to be more complete and more clear?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

13     look at paragraph 3 of the witness statement, that is 65 ter number

14     1D01652, paragraph 3.

15        Q.   Mr. Trifko, did you feel that it was necessary to add a word in

16     the second sentence of this paragraph after the word "upraising the

17     consciousness of the Serbian people"?

18        A.   Yes, I wanted us to add the word "spiritual consciousness."

19        Q.   Thank you.  And would the text of this sentence then read:

20             "The Serbian -- the Serb religious community as well as the

21     development of national consciousness of the Serb people were completely

22     neglected ..." and so on and so forth.

23             So would that be the correct sentence now?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   In paragraph 4 of this statement you indicated --

Page 28066

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, what you just read,

 2     Mr. Stojanovic, is without the word "spiritual," and I thought that

 3     that's what is exactly the word the witness wanted to add, isn't it, or

 4     am I mistaken?

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, the witness

 6     wanted to add the word spiritual, consciousness of the Serb people.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would have left it to that then there would

 8     have been no confusion.  But then you started reading the line as it

 9     reads now which was already perfectly clear.  And then you left out -- at

10     least in the English translation the word "spiritual" was left out.  So

11     it is now in again.  Please proceed.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   In paragraph 4, Mr. Trifko, did you say that the title of the

14     faculty, that is the last line of paragraph 4, the word "Islamic

15     theological faculty in all of Europe" should be added?

16        A.   Yes, that was my remark, that it was necessary to add after the

17     word "Islamic" the theological -- so that we know that we're talking

18     about the faculty of theology.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And in paragraph 5 did you point out that in line 7

20     of the English version and the sixth line of the B/C/S version instead of

21     the word "to 2000" the word should be "until 1992," that would be the

22     correct year; right?

23        A.   Yes, that was my correction.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at paragraph

Page 28067

 1     17, please.

 2        Q.   Line 1 in both the B/C/S and the English version you told us that

 3     it would be clearer if after the word "the beginning of April" the year

 4     "1992" was added?

 5        A.   Yes.  That is also what I wanted to add so that we would know

 6     which year that referred to.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And so to finish with this we'll move on to paragraph

 8     18, last line.  Did you tell us that you believed that a clarification

 9     was necessary by adding the word "and secretary of the Executive Board of

10     the SDS," adding the words "SDS" here?

11        A.   Yes, I asked for that to be added so that it would be clear

12     exactly the secretary of what body that was.

13        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now that we have made these

14     clarifications to your statement I would like to ask you this:  Now after

15     you have given the solemn declaration, would you give the same answers to

16     the questions that were put to you then?

17        A.   Yes, I would stand by what I said to the General Mladic Defence.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

20     tender the following exhibit and that is the statement bearing the

21     65 ter number 1D01652.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, in your written response it says that

23     you do not oppose admission of the statement, not statements.

24             MS. BIBLES:  That's correct, Your Honour.  And it was reflective,

25     I think, the language of the original motion.  But we don't oppose either

Page 28068

 1     of the statements, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1652 receives number D761,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence, while the original motion

 6     states -- refers to annex A and annex B and seeks leave to present the

 7     evidence not a statement.

 8             Please -- I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Stojanovic.  It's time

 9     for a break.

10             Witness, we'll take a break of 20 minutes and we would like to

11     see you back at quarter past 12.00.  You may follow the usher.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us how much time you think you

13     would still need?

14                           [The witness stands down]

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm going to read

16     the summary and then after that I just have two very brief questions for

17     the witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter

19     past 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.56 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Apologies for the late start.

23             Mr. Stojanovic, you are about to start reading the summary.

24     Well, I think it's better to wait for the witness to enter the courtroom.

25     Although we don't need him for your reading the summary, but I think it's

Page 28069

 1     more convenient for him to be able to listen to it.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I will take this moment to let you know

 3     that we have no objection to the redacted document 1D0450 -- excuse me,

 4     1D04058a, the proposed redacted version of the Maksimovic statement.

 5     There is no objection

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the registrar is instructed to replace

 8     1D4058 -- I'm afraid I -- yes with 1D4058a.  And D686 is admitted into

 9     evidence.

10             Mr. Stojanovic.

11             Witness, Mr. Stojanovic will now read a summary of your evidence

12     so that at least the public knows what is in your statement because later

13     they'll be able to follow the questions put to you in relation to that

14     statement.

15             Mr. Stojanovic.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Witness Trifko Komad is a professor of sociology by training and

18     until the outbreak of the war he lived and worked in Sarajevo occupying a

19     number of jobs such as secretary of the motorists' association of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from 1986 he was in the republic conference of

21     the socialist alliance of BH dealing with affairs of national defence and

22     religious issues.

23             He talks about the gathering and association of Serbian

24     intellectuals in the end of the 1980S and the emergence of the need for

25     political organisation of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 28070

 1     because it was clear by that time that the remaining two constituent

 2     peoples in BH had already through political parties SDA and HDZ developed

 3     their own method of political work in a multi-party setting.

 4             He got involved in organisational and technical work preparing

 5     the programme of the new party, and after the founding Assembly of the

 6     SDS in July 1990 he became a member of the Main Board and later of the

 7     Executive Council of the Main Board of the SDS, and thereby member of the

 8     Political Council of the SDS.  And finally, secretary of the

 9     Executive Council of the Main Board of the SDS.

10             He testifies to the interrelations within the SDS, the role of

11     Radovan Karadzic in the political life of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

12     intentions and goals of the Serbian people in overcoming political and

13     international tensions, as well as sectarian occurrences in the party,

14     illustrating all this by comments on a number of intercepts involving

15     Radovan Karadzic and himself.

16             He emphasises his knowledge about documents containing Variants A

17     and B relating to the organisation of authorities in municipalities

18     throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina and the reasons for the establishment of

19     Crisis Staffs in municipalities and their role and tasks.

20             He got out of Sarajevo on 6 April 1992, leaving behind in the

21     city his parents who met their end there as a result of mistreatment and

22     persecution, whereas his sister remain a permanent invalid.  Later on he

23     assumes responsibilities to organise and escort the movement of

24     humanitarian convoys towards the territory of the Federation of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina until the end of 1992 when he began to work in the

Page 28071

 1     bureau of the RS government in Belgrade.

 2             In the supplement to his statement which he gave to the Defence

 3     team of General Mladic, he speaks in greater detail on the position of

 4     the Serbian people, the Serbian religious community, and the attempts to

 5     wipe out Serbian spiritual heritage in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the

 6     outbreak of the war.  He has indirect knowledge about the state of

 7     interethnic relations in Foca before the war and states that he had had

 8     opportunity to meet with General Mladic several times and gain an

 9     impression on his positions and the position of the VRS with regard to

10     the activity of paramilitary units.

11             This is all, Your Honours.  At this moment I should like to

12     tender this statement but also the associated documents, and I believe we

13     have an agreement with the Prosecution who have no objections.  I would

14     now take the liberty of reading out all these four exhibits as I tender

15     them.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Which statement do you want to tender?  I think you

17     tendered two statements.  They have both been admitted, so I'm wondering

18     what remains as far as statements are concerned.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the statement that

20     is now marked D760 mentions in four paragraphs intercepts commented on by

21     the witness, and I would be so free as to tender these intercepts as

22     well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's the only thing remaining from what I

24     understand.  These are associated exhibits.  If you name them one by

25     one -- no speaking aloud, no speaking aloud, Mr. Mladic.  You know the

Page 28072

 1     rules.

 2             Let's try to -- I have the numbers here.  The first one is

 3     RM 65 ter 1D04475.  There are no objections.  None of them, Ms. Bibles?

 4             MS. BIBLES:  No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  1D4475 receives number D762, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  1D04476 receives number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  D763, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  1D04477?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D764, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  1D04478?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Receives number D765, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  D762 up to and including D765 are admitted into

14     evidence.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Could we now call up in e-court D761, paragraph 20.

18        Q.   Mr. Komad, you say here that you had occasion to meet with

19     General Mladic, and I would kindly ask you to tell the Court in greater

20     detail to the best of your recollection when that was and when -- where

21     did these meetings take place?

22        A.   The first time I met General Mladic was in Pale in May 1992, when

23     General Mladic arrived by helicopter from Knin, I believe, or somewhere.

24     He arrived at Pale and his helicopter landed near the resort called

25     Kikinda where the Serbian leadership stayed at that time.  This was, I

Page 28073

 1     believe, the first meeting of the republican leadership with

 2     General Mladic, and at that meeting they discussed the principles and the

 3     way the Serbian people would organise their defence.  I was not the main

 4     person there.  I was just attending and it was mainly General Mladic and

 5     Mr. Karadzic who spoke.

 6        Q.   Do you remember your second meeting?

 7        A.   It was in July 1993 when a group of Serbs from the United States

 8     arrived carrying humanitarian aid.  They applied to the bureau in

 9     Belgrade where I was then working and I was that group's escort.  We were

10     supposed to turn over that humanitarian aid to the Main Staff at

11     Han Pijesak, and the second part of the humanitarian aid was delivered to

12     Pale to the political leadership.  I was at that time one of the people

13     who were responsible for delivering the aid.  The weather was bad, if I

14     remember well.  General Mladic arrived from Mount Treskavica, again by

15     helicopter, and we spent that day together with those people from the US.

16     Most of them were representatives of the Serbian Orthodox church from

17     Chicago.  General Mladic wanted to receive those people, to thank them

18     personally, and that's what he did.

19             And my third meeting with him was in Belgrade.  It was very

20     brief.  We saw each other only in passing.  I was working at the bureau,

21     he came upstairs, we just exchanged greetings and that was it.  Those

22     were all my encounters with General Mladic.

23        Q.   Can you remember that meeting in Belgrade, when was it?

24        A.   I can't remember exactly.  I can't remember the exact time.  I

25     would make a mistake.

Page 28074

 1        Q.   And I will finish with one more question.  Paragraph 9, if we

 2     could look at it.

 3             Mr. Komad, in this paragraph you discussed the attitude towards

 4     the Serbian Orthodox clergy, mentioning some examples.  Could you please

 5     tell the Court if you heard any first-hand or indirect knowledge about

 6     what happened to Serbian Orthodox churches during those years in the

 7     territory controlled by the BH Federation?

 8        A.   In my statement I focused quite a lot on the spiritual condition

 9     of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war.  I pointed

10     out a number of facts that speak about the neglect of Serb religious

11     communities and even attempts to wipe it out.  I illustrated it with a

12     number of facts in my written statement, but I would also like to add

13     that this process of discrimination and these attempts to wipe out this

14     community was described by Mr. Ala Ukovic [phoen] in his book "Spiritual

15     Genocide."  He relates precise information as to how it happened in

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I will mention just a few.  The fact is that the war

17     continued this aggressive, discriminating treatment of Serb churches and

18     the Serb religious community in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If I may only just

19     say that according to information from that book, 170 churches and

20     monasteries were destroyed --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- also 116 were damaged --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  If an expert has written on this in books, then the

24     Defence has an opportunity to call such an expert, but we are interested

25     in your personal knowledge not in what you read in books written by

Page 28075

 1     others.  So we leave it to that.  I didn't stop you right away because --

 2     but it comes down to opinion and perhaps even expert evidence which is

 3     supposed not to be given by a witness of fact.

 4             Mr. Stojanovic, this was your last question?  Yes.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             I thank Mr. Komad and conclude.  We turn him over to the

 7     Prosecution.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Komad, you'll now be cross-examined by

 9     Ms. Bibles.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Bibles is counsel for

10     the Prosecution.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Bibles:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   I'd like to start by clarifying where in your statements and

16     where in the events you might have direct knowledge.  I'd first like to

17     look at D761, paragraphs 15 through 17, which discuss several things

18     including Foca.  My question for you, sir, is:  Were you in Foca at all

19     from April through December of 1992?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Do I understand correctly then that none of your evidence about

22     Foca comes from your direct observation of the events in Foca themselves?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And you've testified, I believe, at temporary

25     transcript 54 as well as in paragraph 20 of D761 about a meeting in Pale

Page 28076

 1     at the Hotel Kikinda.  Were you present for all of the meeting?

 2        A.   Not all of the meeting, no.  Not all of the meeting, but for most

 3     of it, yes.

 4        Q.   Were you there when Tintor was describing what should happen to

 5     mixed-marriage couples?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Turning now to your other statement, to D760 at paragraph 29.

 8     You indicate that you left Bosnia and Herzegovina in late 1992 or early

 9     1993 for Belgrade.  Could you be more specific as to your dates?

10        A.   I think it was January 1993, but if I just may say this:  I would

11     come and go.  I would go to Belgrade and return to Pale.  I wasn't --

12     either in Belgrade or in Pale on a permanent basis.  I mean, you could

13     say that I was moving back and forth.  My task was to form a bureau in

14     Belgrade, then I would return to Pale.  It was difficult.  The phone

15     lines were not reliable, so I had to return to Pale for many of the

16     things that I needed to do.  So I don't know if I've been clear enough.

17     I would go back and forth.

18        Q.   That answers my question.  Now, while you were in Belgrade for

19     the years remaining in the war, which organs of the Serbian government

20     did you work with?

21        A.   Mostly with the main leadership, practically with everybody but

22     mostly with the organs of power from the Assembly, other organs, and

23     better said that it was work with the civilian organs rather than the

24     military organs.

25        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now --

Page 28077

 1        A.   If you need me to clarify, I can do that.  I dealt with

 2     humanitarian assistance, protection of refugees, the wounded.  So there

 3     were contacts with the military organs regarding the care for the

 4     wounded.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just to be clear, these were Serbian civilian

 6     organisations of Serbia, not of the RS?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Republika Srpska and then

 8     sometimes with the organs of Serbia if needed, both of them, because that

 9     was the function of the bureau, to be a link in all the co-operation and

10     the assistance that was required.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thanks.

12             Madam Bibles.

13             MS. BIBLES:

14        Q.   And because it's not particularly clear, could you describe the

15     name of the bureau that you worked for starting in 1993 throughout the

16     war?

17        A.   The name was the Bureau of Republika Srpska.  It was an organ of

18     Republika Srpska.  In the beginning it was conceived in such a way and

19     then later it would have the form of it being an organ, a bureau of the

20     government of Republika Srpska.  It exists today, but now it's called the

21     Representative Offices of Republika Srpska.  Sometime after the war it

22     changed its name.  During the war the name was the Bureau of

23     Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   All right.  And when you needed to go, let's say, up the chain of

25     command, did you report to or give requests to Momcilo Mandic?

Page 28078

 1        A.   Momcilo was the director of the Bureau of Republika Srpska for a

 2     time -- actually, it was during the time that I was working there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We'll shift topics now.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 31576 on our screen.

 5        Q.   Sir, in your statement D760 in paragraph 30 you challenge some of

 6     the adjudicated facts before the Mladic court.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  And, Your Honours, although we discussed it before

 8     court and I believe there was an e-mail, we should clarify that in D760

 9     in paragraph 30 where there is a reference to the adjudicated fact 1946,

10     that's actually in the Karadzic case.  The parallel adjudicated fact

11     would be 79 in this case --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well --

13             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Ms. Bibles, I was --

15             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  -- surprised that the Defence without any further

17     explanation presents to us comments on adjudicated facts in another case

18     which I'm not aware of.  So I have not discussed the matter with my

19     colleagues yet, but I thought let's just ignore it if this is the way in

20     which it is presented.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, I do not know what you expect the Chamber to do

22     with adjudicated facts in another case and comment on it.  We've got no

23     idea.

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, according to what

25     we did while preparing for the testimony of this witness, the adjudicated

Page 28079

 1     fact from the Karadzic case is identical to the adjudicated fact from

 2     this case number 79, 79 in our case.  It's an identical passage.  And we

 3     did inform the Trial Chamber and the Prosecutor about this.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you inform us about that?  I may have

 5     missed it, in which case I'm -- oh, this morning.  Let's have a look.

 6     Let me just have a look.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber staff received an e-mail this morning

 8     at 8.53 from the Defence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  If that -- I have not read that yet,

10     but if that explains the matter.  But it would be wise to refer to these

11     matters in court, but I have to correct myself that you had not given

12     notice, although very late and in a way which is not the most appropriate

13     one.  I leave it to that at this moment.

14             Then could we have the text of the two adjudicated facts to see

15     whether they are exactly the same or whether they are not exactly the

16     same.  Similar is not good enough, Mr. Stojanovic.  Do you have the text

17     of the -- could you read them, the two, into the transcript, the Karadzic

18     one and then the Mladic one.  Do you have them ?

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could you read to start with the Karadzic

21     one, that we have it on the record.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] On the 21st of November, 1991,

23     the Assembly of Bosnian Serbs proclaimed as part of the territory of the

24     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia all those municipalities or communities

25     and settlements where the majority of registered citizens were of Serb

Page 28080

 1     ethnicity and they opted to remain in Yugoslavia.

 2             According to the comparison that we made, adjudicated fact number

 3     79 in this case corresponds to the text that I have just read out.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it literally the same or -- could you read out

 5     the text of adjudicated fact in this case 79.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note we do not have the

 7     original in English or B/C/S.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you know, my

 9     knowledge of English is not sufficient for me to be able to read it, but

10     this morning I asked my colleagues to make this comparison and they

11     informed me that the text in English is identical.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  I'll check that myself at this moment and you

13     may -- Ms. Bibles can continue meanwhile.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before she does, I think, Mr. Stojanovic, it would

15     be very helpful where you have a number for an adjudicated fact in this

16     trial and in another trial to rather use in the statement the

17     adjudicated -- the number in this trial, then we wouldn't be having this

18     whole discussion of comparing adjudicated facts.  It would save us more

19     time then if you could refer to the fact -- the adjudicated fact of this

20     trial.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's number 79 in our case, as Mr. Stojanovic

22     indicated earlier.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement was from the

24     Karadzic case and so we felt that in the technical sense this would be

25     the best way to notify you of this matter, in view of the fact that the

Page 28081

 1     paragraphs are in the Karadzic statement, from the Karadzic case.  I

 2     thank you for your understanding.

 3             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Sir, we have heard the description of adjudicated fact 79 in this

 5     case.  And in front of you, sir, on the screen is a decision taken the

 6     session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly on 21 November 1991, which states in

 7     its first paragraph:  The territories of municipalities, local

 8     communities, and populated places in which more than 50 per cent of the

 9     Serbian electorate voted for the same joint state ... and then we see the

10     last portion of that paragraph which says:

11             " ... shall be considered the territory of the federal state of

12     Yugoslavia."

13             Now, sir, you've challenged this adjudicated fact in this trial,

14     but I would point out to you that with some insignificant differences

15     this decision is reflected accurately in the text of the adjudicated

16     fact; isn't that correct?

17        A.   Look, I wasn't part of the Assembly organs.  I wasn't a deputy or

18     held any other function in the municipal -- in the Assembly organs.

19     Therefore, this decision by the Assembly is something that I was informed

20     about.  But I'm not sure what you are asking me.

21        Q.   Sir, isn't it true that the adjudicated fact which we've heard

22     read out is accurately reflected by the decision of the Bosnian Serb

23     Assembly on the 21st of November, 1991; that's accurate, isn't it?

24        A.   It is correct that this is the original text, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 28082

 1             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honours, I tender 31576.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31576 receives number P6901,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I should not have admitted it yet without it

 6     being assigned a number.  P6901 is admitted.

 7             Witness, the issue is that the adjudicated fact says:  This is

 8     what the Assembly proclaimed.  Now, whether that was right or wrong is

 9     another matter, but you said that the adjudicated fact is wrong.  The

10     adjudicated fact simply said what the Assembly claimed.  Therefore, in

11     that respect, it seems to be a perfect adjudicated fact because it is

12     literally the same as what the decision tells us.  So that's not very

13     smart to do it that way, but also not -- I do not understand, even with

14     the explanation of Mr. Stojanovic, how we should understand this.

15     Because Ms. Bibles has -- and you agree with her, that this is what the

16     decision says.  How could you then say that it's not what the Assembly

17     claimed?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where did I say that?

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  In your statement.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  In your statement.  You say that the adjudicated

21     fact is not correct, but let's have a look.  It's the last paragraph in

22     your Karadzic statement I think.

23             MS. BIBLES:  Paragraph 30, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  30, yes.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the second paragraph of paragraph 30.

Page 28083

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think that it

 3     would be fair to the witness to show him the paragraph from the Karadzic

 4     judgement so that he could look at that.

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's totally irrelevant to -- well --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's no judgement yet, but I think you

 8     misspoke or the interpreters did misspeak.  It should be D758 -- sorry,

 9     D760.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You said at the last paragraph:

11             "I can state the following:  These adjudicated facts are

12     incorrect ..."

13             That's what you said.  And the first one was just read to you,

14     that is what the Assembly proclaimed.  And your explanation is -- has got

15     nothing to do with it being an accurate reflection of what the Assembly

16     proclaimed.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please the next page in English.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There it is.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not recall giving a statement

21     that the adjudicated facts were incorrect.  All I did was confirm in my

22     statement that the local commune was the basic sociopolitical unit and

23     that it was possible that the locally communes as basic sociopolitical

24     units exist and that's part of what I said in the Karadzic case.  I'm not

25     sure that I said that the adjudicated fact is incorrect.

Page 28084

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  But you attested to this statement this very

 2     morning, Witness?

 3             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You were asked by Mr. Stojanovic whether you

 5     reviewed them and whether you would give the same answers and whether it

 6     was all accurate.  When did you read it for the last time this statement.

 7        A.   This statement, I read it when came here to The Hague.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes, and your statement clearly says what your

 9     testimony is, isn't it?  Okay, but you attested to it this morning so if

10     you don't remember then you must not perhaps have read it very carefully

11     before entering this courtroom.  We'll leave it to that.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But, Witness, do you see this text on the

13     left-hand side of the screen in front of you.  The long paragraph, the

14     last paragraph on that page, first line.  This is your statement in the

15     Karadzic case.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And it says:  "These adjudicated facts are

18     incorrect."  Am I right?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's written.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And you attested to it this morning.

21             Let's proceed.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             MS. BIBLES:

24        Q.   Sir, I'd next like to shift attention towards D761 which is your

25     Mladic statement in which in paragraph 19 you say with respect to

Page 28085

 1     convoys:

 2             "It would happen that local bosses would commandeer all or parts

 3     of the humanitarian aid for their own needs which was explained away by

 4     saying that the people and troops did not have enough for their own

 5     needs.  The Serbs' political leadership analysed this and concluded that

 6     such vigilanteism could no longer be tolerated and instead they created

 7     an organisational structure which would allow convoys and humanitarian

 8     aid to pass through, and I was tasked by the political leadership with

 9     co-ordinating this for some time in 1992."

10             On what date did you stop co-ordinating the humanitarian aid for

11     the RS political leadership?

12        A.   [No interpretation]

13             MS. BIBLES:  I didn't receive interpretation.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Neither did we.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the end of 1992 when I left for

16     Belgrade.

17             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P6770 on our screens, please.  This

18     is under seal and should not be broadcast.  But the body of the text

19     itself is not protected so we may remain in open session for this.

20        Q.   Sir, on your screen you'll see that this is an Official Note

21     regarding the British humanitarian aid convoy from an organisation called

22     the -- or Serious Road Trip, and it involves it being stopped at the

23     Mostar check-point.  At the top we see it's dated 20 October 1992.  This

24     Official Note is addressed to the Ilidza war department, national

25     security service, Ministry of the Interior RS, and it explains that

Page 28086

 1     medical equipment was confiscated because the crew did not have the right

 2     documentation.  In the third paragraph the author of the document states:

 3             "The instruments were confiscated and immediately handed over to

 4     the Zica hospital in Blazuj ..."

 5             He also states:

 6             "The instruments in question were ones that were vital to our

 7     hospital ..."

 8             Now, sir, under your watch over these convoys, was it the policy

 9     to take items from a convoy rather than sending the convoy and its

10     property back?

11        A.   The policy was to escort the convoy to its destination, not to

12     confiscate anything, to take it to the destination; specifically, I

13     escorted a convoy that was going to Sarajevo and in Sarajevo I turned

14     over the truck filled with goods intended for Sarajevo, the same in

15     Gorazde when it was under the rule of Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities.

16        Q.   Sir, you're certainly not talking about the convoy that is

17     described in this document from the 20th of October, are you?

18        A.   No --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  He's talking about policy, not what happened on

20     the ground.

21             MS. BIBLES:

22        Q.   Sir --

23        A.   Yes, right.

24        Q.   -- let's take a look at another document with respect to another

25     convoy.

Page 28087

 1             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have P6771 and again this is under seal

 2     and should not be broadcast, but the body, the text, is not sensitive so

 3     we can remain in open session.

 4        Q.   Sir, as this document comes up you'll see that it is another

 5     Official Note regarding the same British humanitarian aid convoy from

 6     Serious Road Trip.  This one, however, is dated 17 December 1992 and it's

 7     referring to events on the 16th of December, 1992.  Again, we see that

 8     it's addressed to the Ilidza war department, and I will take you to the

 9     first paragraph of the first page about halfway down to the sentence

10     beginning:

11             "They brought in paperwork ..."

12             "They brought in paperwork on the convoy which is in order and so

13     received permission for the passage but that they were to leave behind

14     one-third of the cargo at Ilidza which they consented to with great

15     difficulty."

16             So, sir, what we see in practice, at least in this instance, was

17     that when the documents are in order the Republika Srpska would take a

18     third of the items to allow the convoy to pass; correct?

19        A.   Well, I cannot say that it was policy.  It wasn't policy.  I

20     don't know if there were cases like that.  I told you what the position

21     of the leadership was, to take goods to their destination.  But I don't

22     allow the possibility that things described by you happened because we

23     were not able to control everything, even the means of communication we

24     had at that time did not allow us to control everything.

25             MS. BIBLES:  We can move this document from the screen now.

Page 28088

 1     Thank you.

 2        Q.   And, sir, shifting directions or shifting topics again, in D760,

 3     your Karadzic statement, paragraph 9, you describe that you were a member

 4     of the SDS Main Board and Executive Board.  Now, you were not elected to

 5     those positions; correct?

 6        A.   Yes, I became secretary and I was also co-opted into the

 7     Main Board.  When I was elected at the parliament the president,

 8     according to the statute, had the right to nominate some people, I don't

 9     know if it was seven or nine people, proposing them to become members of

10     the Main Board.  I was among those nominees.  And as for the position of

11     secretary, I was elected officially at the Executive Council following a

12     competition for a publicly known vacancy.

13        Q.   Sir, to make sure that we understand this correctly, is it true

14     that you were selected directly into the Main Board and Executive Board

15     by Radovan Karadzic?

16        A.   To the Executive Council I was elected following a competition

17     when I answered a vacancy announcement, and into the Main Board I was

18     co-opted.

19        Q.   And that means selected by Radovan Karadzic; is that correct?

20        A.   Right.

21        Q.   Shifting topics a little bit now going to D760, which is your

22     Karadzic statement, in paragraph 19 you describe that relations between

23     the central and local bodies of the SDS were rather complex and that at

24     the local levels there was a lot of misconduct and animosity from

25     Banja Luka into the Krajina towards Sarajevo and later Pale.  In

Page 28089

 1     paragraph 21 you state that leaders from the Krajina, and you name some

 2     of them, were co-operative in the early stages but then began to have

 3     problems as early as July of 1991.  I'd like to discuss this area with

 4     you right before the break.

 5             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have the transcript of 65 ter 20251 on

 6     the screen, please.

 7        Q.   Sir, you'll see that this is a transcript of a conversation that

 8     was intercepted between Karadzic and local party officials in Prijedor,

 9     especially Simo Miskovic and Srdo Srdic.  An individual by the name of

10     Radomir Neskovic also appears on the conversation.  I would first like to

11     ask about Neskovic, is he an individual from Sarajevo?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   He was --

14        A.   But I have to clarify if you'll allow me, he was a member of the

15     Executive Board together with me.

16        Q.   Based out of Sarajevo.  All right.  Sir, he appears on this

17     conversation --

18        A.   Right.  I believe he was born somewhere near Pale.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please wait for the next

20     question.

21             MS. BIBLES:

22        Q.   Sir, in this conversation as you see it appears that Mr. Neskovic

23     is in Prijedor.

24             MS. BIBLES:  If we could go to page 2 in the English but stay on

25     page 1 in the B/C/S.

Page 28090

 1        Q.   And, sir, directing your attention to the lower part of the first

 2     page in B/C/S, we see Neskovic describing a problem in Prijedor,

 3     essentially that local Assemblymen are claiming more seniority.  Now

 4     moving to page 2 in the B/C/S and to the top of page 3 in the English, he

 5     states:

 6             "They do not recognise any authority here, especially if you

 7     mention Sarajevo."

 8             Is this an example of the kind of animosity that you were

 9     referring to?

10        A.   Roughly speaking, yes.  But if you allow me to explain why

11     Neskovic is mentioned in Prijedor --

12        Q.   Sir, that's fine.  We'll get to that.  Sir, following with the

13     conversation, if you look at the transcript, you'll see that Karadzic

14     replies with expletives and a short time on the same page later he says:

15             "And please tell them this:  Whoever won't adhere to the policies

16     of the party and implement the policies of the party but adheres to their

17     own private policies ..." and there's some other words "let them sign

18     here, let them leave their place in the municipality and we will put new

19     people there."

20             Now, sir, isn't it true that when faced with those in the SDS who

21     challenged his policies, Karadzic could and would make changes to the

22     boards in the local levels; correct?

23        A.   I don't quite agree.  Maybe looks like that from this dialogue,

24     but in practice it was the Main Board and the organs of the party that

25     decided.  In practice it wasn't like that, but he did react like this in

Page 28091

 1     dialogues when he was angry.

 2        Q.   I think we can finish this quickly before the break.  Sir, if we

 3     turn to page 4 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S, about halfway

 4     down, page 4 in the English, we see a person named Trifko tell Karadzic

 5     that a municipality seal was given to Neskovic.  So you were present in

 6     the room with Karadzic when this conversation took place; right?

 7        A.   I can't remember.  I can't remember that detail.

 8        Q.   Is that the kind of thing you would have been doing or checking

 9     on for being able to relay to Karadzic?

10        A.   To check what?  Excuse me.  What was I supposed to check?

11        Q.   If a municipality seal had been given to someone from Sarajevo

12     who had gone to another part of the Republika Srpska?

13        A.   We didn't have any seals of municipalities.  We only had seals of

14     the party.

15        Q.   Do you have any reason to doubt that this is you in the

16     transcript?

17        A.   I said I can't remember that detail.  I can only confirm that we

18     did not have seals of municipalities.  We only had a seal of the party.

19        Q.   Moving on.  In this intercept at the bottom of page 12 in the

20     English and --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that.

22             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did the municipality not use the party seal for

24     that municipality?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The seal of the party for the

Page 28092

 1     party, yes, but municipal organs had municipal seals.  And municipal

 2     agencies also had their own seals or stamps.

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Bibles was asking you about municipal seals

 4     and you said there were no municipal seals, and the question here that

 5     Karadzic is asking is whether this document that is being handed over to

 6     him bears the seal of the municipality.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let us understand each other.  A

 8     municipality as a sociopolitical unit is separate from a political party,

 9     that is to say the SDS --

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I understand that.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and in all its documents the

12     municipality has its bodies and its seals.  The party had its seal.  And

13     the municipal seal of the party has nothing to do with the seal of the

14     municipality.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I do understand that.  And Mr. Karadzic is asking

16     this person called Trifko here, we don't know whether it is you, whether

17     this document that is being handed to him, which Trifko claims was given

18     to Neskovic, whether it bears the municipal seal.  Now, you've told us

19     that the municipality has a seal and Karadzic wants to establish the

20     authenticity of this document by referring to this municipal seal to see

21     where it comes from.  In any case the point is earlier you said there

22     were no municipal seals, now you say there are.  So which of the two is

23     actually correct?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I didn't understand you at

25     first.  It's true that the municipal organisation of the SDS may have a

Page 28093

 1     seal, but it was not a seal of the municipality.  The municipality has

 2     its own seal, it's a sociopolitical community.  Here we are talking about

 3     the political party.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 5             Madam Bibles was asking about the seal of the municipality not of

 6     the party.

 7             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But she also wasn't [Overlapping speakers] --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I confirm again, we did not have a

10     municipal seal.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles, I'm looking at the clock.

13             MS. BIBLES:  I was overly optimistic about finishing this

14     section.  Perhaps this would be a good time to take a break.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll take a break and we'll resume at 20

16     minutes to 2.00.  You may follow the usher.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

21     into the courtroom, Mr. Ivetic, you in your e-mail this morning you said

22     that adjudicated fact 80 was denied.  Now --

23             MR. IVETIC:  I can correct that.  I believe it was reformulated.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Reformulated --

25             MR. IVETIC:  Denied as formulated and then reformulated in

Page 28094

 1     Your Honour's first decision on adjudicated facts.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now then there's no misunderstanding about

 3     this matter.

 4             MS. BIBLES:  And if I may --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Bibles.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  -- to save time, thank you, we could go to the

 7     bottom of page 12 in the English of this document and page 9 in the

 8     B/C/S -- or perhaps we can't.  Never mind.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             MS. BIBLES:

11        Q.   Sir, we'll now move a little further in this conversation to page

12     12 in the English and page 9 in the B/C/S.  And, sir, we see down at the

13     bottom the page in the English, and I'm not sure frankly which portion of

14     the page in English, where it's suggested to Karadzic that he should

15     disband the board and appoint new people.  Do you see that, sir?

16        A.   [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We did not receive interpretation.

18             MS. BIBLES:

19        Q.   It doesn't appear the witness's microphone is on.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then ...

21             Yes, now it seems to be on.  I see at least now the red light.

22     Could you please repeat your --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the page that is in front of me

24     in the language that I understand, there isn't my name indicating that I

25     am communicating with anyone.

Page 28095

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, that wasn't the question.

 2             MS. BIBLES:

 3        Q.   Sir, you're not speaking here, we're not looking for your words.

 4     But if you look at the middle of the page I believe it's Srdjo is

 5     speaking and he's tell -- he suggests to Karadzic that he should disband

 6     the board and appoint I believe it's ten people.

 7        A.   Srdjo is speaking --

 8        Q.   You see that?

 9        A.   I do, yes.  I can see it now.  I can see that it's Srdjo

10     speaking.  I first understood that it was me speaking.  Srdjo was the

11     official in Prijedor and he's suggesting to the president that a decision

12     should be taken by the party board.  This is just a suggestion that Srdjo

13     makes in his conversation with Radovan Karadzic.

14        Q.   Sir, are you aware that on the very next day, on 11 September

15     1991, Simo Miskovic and Mr. Stakic are elected as president and

16     vice-president of the SDS Assembly in Prijedor?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I would tender 20251.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             MS. BIBLES:  We can tender the transcripts, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You just want to tender the transcripts, but then of

23     course we have a surrogate sheet at this moment in e-court so that should

24     be adapted first.

25             And, Mr. Stojanovic, attention was just paid to the text, the

Page 28096

 1     words spoken, not to the intercept itself, the audio.  Not having any

 2     objections means that you do not challenge the transcript presenting the

 3     words spoken in the intercept itself?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you already reserve a number

 6     for the transcript in both languages and that a decision on admission

 7     will be taken once the audio has been separated from it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Reserved number for document currently with

 9     65 ter number 20251 receives number P6902, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes and that number is reserved once we have the

11     material uploaded as they should be uploaded.

12             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you.  And if we could have 65 ter 7101 now.

13        Q.   And, sir, we'll briefly look at these.  These are the minutes of

14     the SDS Assembly meeting in Prijedor on 11 September 1991.

15             MS. BIBLES:  And if we can actually go to the last page now which

16     I believe is page 5 in the English -- excuse me, page 4 in the English

17     and page 5 in the original.

18        Q.   Sir, we see the newly elected Simo Miskovic address the Assembly.

19     We also see an individual who I want to ask you about.  It's described in

20     the English transcript as Nesovic who is there from the Sarajevo SDS

21     Executive Board.  Would you agree that this would actually be

22     Mr. Neskovic?

23        A.   Yes, Radomir Neskovic.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And, sir, you see the description saying that the

25     work of the local boards is central to the whole structure of the party?

Page 28097

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And you would agree that that was in fact the relationship

 3     between the local boards and the main party, that there was a

 4     relationship at that time?

 5        A.   Other than the local boards there was also a Municipal Board.

 6     The Main Board in the republic -- at the level of the republic, then you

 7     also had lower organs, municipal boards and then the local boards.  There

 8     was the Main Board of the party and the local boards and then in between

 9     those there were the municipal boards, specifically the municipal board

10     of Prijedor, for example.

11        Q.   And, sir, you would agree that within the SDS these relationships

12     followed sort of the hierarchy that you've described?

13        A.   Yes.

14             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 7101.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 7101 receives number P6903,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

19             MS. BIBLES:

20        Q.   Sir, I'd like to discuss further the relationship, given your

21     statement, between the local individuals and Karadzic.

22             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have 65 ter 20414, please.

23        Q.   Sir, this is an intercepted conversation between Brdjanin and

24     Karadzic from 30 October 1991.

25             Sir, we see that Brdjanin phoned Karadzic to complain about a

Page 28098

 1     dance being held after a number of Krajina soldiers had been killed.

 2             MS. BIBLES:  If we could have page 5 now in the English and page

 3     4 in the B/C/S.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a clarification.  On the record I see the

 5     date of 30th of October 1991.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the document it says 31st of October.

 8             MS. BIBLES:  Oh, it does.  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I am

 9     corrected.  It would be -- this should be the 31st of October it appears.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you for the clarification.

12        Q.   We see Karadzic's reaction to this, where he states:

13             [As read] "Come on, man, do your job.  Don't call me about every

14     major problem" -- I'm sorry, "minor problem."  That is a major misread.

15     Returning to the quote.

16             [As read] "I am not your nanny.  You have power in your hands and

17     you have presidents of municipalities through whom you can exercise this

18     power until we achieve autonomy.  So you cannot, you cannot call me about

19     every detail.  You should exercise power rigorously and to the fullest.

20     Not a single bird should be allowed to fly over the Krajina, and there

21     must not be a shortage of men from Krajina for the army.  You must

22     establish all that ..."

23             Now, just above this section Brdjanin has said that someone asked

24     him to call Karadzic about all this.  When Karadzic demands to know who

25     he says "Kupresanin."  Who was Kupresanin?

Page 28099

 1        A.   Kupresanin was also an activist in the Krajina.  At the beginning

 2     he had formed an independent party.  I cannot remember its name right

 3     now, but I know that with the forming of the SDS he joined the SDS.  His

 4     party fused with the SDS so that there was a number of people in the

 5     Krajina who were responsible for that area, including Kupresanin.

 6        Q.   So can we agree that Kupresanin and Brdjanin both spoke together

 7     about an issue and then Karadzic was called about this issue?  Can we

 8     agree with that basic structure of the situation?

 9        A.   Well, I cannot confirm that.  It's something that we can

10     assume - I don't have reliable sources in order to confirm it.  It could

11     be a workable assumption but I cannot confirm it.

12        Q.   Sir, wouldn't you agree or would you agree that it's obvious from

13     this and the other communications that the SDS central authorities

14     provided guidance, direction, and approval to the ARK leadership?

15        A.   In the field, yes.

16             MS. BIBLES:  I tender 65 ter 20414, and would be -- we'll create

17     a 20414a which would just be the transcripts for this conversation.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And the and the number already reserved for it?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Number reserved for document 20414a would be

20     P6904, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll hear from you, Ms. Bibles.

22             To be -- the witness answered the question, but where you said

23     whether it appears from this conversation and I think other

24     communications, I do not know exactly what other communications you had

25     on your mind.  Apparently the witness had but ...

Page 28100

 1             MS. BIBLES:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, and I'll clarify the record.

 2     I was referring to the previous conversation, the previous document that

 3     I've shown him during the course of his cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then you should have been used the singular

 5     rather than the plural.  Please proceed.

 6             MS. BIBLES:

 7        Q.   Sir, in fact, you've previously testified that in addition to

 8     Brdjanin and Kupresanin, Predrag Radic and Radislav Vukic were others

 9     from the Krajina who regularly sought advice from Karadzic; correct?

10        A.   Yes, they were local leadership at the Banja Luka Krajina level

11     and there was this communication.  To tell the truth, I did say in my

12     written statement that there was situations when certain groups or

13     individuals behaved wilfully, not respecting the principles.  And this

14     was a result of the fact that these were the first multi-party activities

15     in our country.  So the direction was not quite clear, but there were

16     also ambitions which pointed to a struggle for power.  So these were the

17     things that had an influence on some of these occurrences.

18        Q.   And am I to understand you that in the end, when it comes to the

19     SDS central authority and local boards, that those issues or those

20     occurrences were resolved?

21        A.   Most often they were resolved through dialogue when it was

22     possible to do it like that, by considering instances when Neskovic went

23     to Prijedor on behalf of the board or when individuals would go out into

24     the field in order to co-ordinate these things and define the line which

25     was laid down by the party.  We always sought to resolve outstanding

Page 28101

 1     issues in a democratic way.

 2        Q.   I'd now like to change topics and shift attention towards your

 3     statement in D760, your Karadzic statement, paragraph 23, where you

 4     indicate that Variant A and B was something that JNA generals were

 5     working on but were not adopted.  Sir, the Prosecution case is that these

 6     instructions were issued on 19 December 1991 by the SDS Main Board and

 7     they were commonly referred to as Variant A and B instructions.  I'd like

 8     to just go through some examples with respect to how these instructions

 9     may have existed.

10             MS. BIBLES:  First if the Prosecution could have P3771.

11        Q.   Sir, these are the minutes for the 6th meeting of the

12     Executive Board in Kljuc held on the 23rd of December, 1991.

13        A.   May I ask something?  Am I permitted to put a question,

14     Your Honour?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not.  If at the end of your statement you

16     would like to add something which is important, then you have an

17     opportunity to do so, but you should listen to questions and answer

18     them -- unless it is a question of a practical kind such as:  Could I

19     have a hard copy of my statement or something like that, that's okay.

20     But not about the substance of your testimony.

21             MS. BIBLES:

22        Q.   Thank you.  Sir --

23        A.   I actually wanted to ask which Executive Board?  You said

24     "Executive Board meeting."  Which Executive Board?  Whose

25     Executive Board?

Page 28102

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's --

 2             MS. BIBLES:

 3        Q.   Thank you.  It's the 6th meeting of the executive committee of

 4     the SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc held on the 23rd of December, 1991.

 5        A.   All right.  Okay.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now on page 1 in both versions, down where it says AD-1 it

 7     states:

 8             "Veljko Kondic informed the meeting of the instructions for the

 9     organisation and activities of the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10     All organs will be required to work in accordance with the instructions.

11     Whoever is not ready to fulfil his duties should say so immediately and

12     it will not be held against him."

13             And then if we go down further on the page in English and I

14     believe it's on the next page in the original, right above the

15     composition of the Crisis Staff, the document's reference is Kondic again

16     as stating:

17             "That means that all suggestions and tasks from the instructions

18     are accepted in their entirety."

19             They then go forward and set up a Crisis Staff and describe its

20     membership.  Sir, were you aware that the Kljuc SDS executive committee

21     was acting on these 19 December 1991 instructions?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. BIBLES:  We'll move on then to P3773.

25        Q.   Sir, these are the minutes of a meeting of the Prijedor Municipal

Page 28103

 1     Board of the SDS on 27 December 1991.  We see on page 1 in both versions

 2     under the title "proceedings" that Miskovic, president of the Prijedor

 3     SDS Municipal Board read out the instructions forwarded to the Prijedor

 4     SDS Municipal Board by the Assembly of the Serbian People of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It then states:

 6             "Since there were two versions, only version II which is relevant

 7     for Prijedor municipality was read out.

 8             "Having read out all of the items in sections A and B of version

 9     II, Miskovic explained what had been done so far with respect to the

10     instructions."

11             And, sir, if we look to the bottom in English - and I am not sure

12     in the B/C/S I just realised - it appears on the same page, we see the

13     words "reasons and functions were stated for the establishment of the

14     municipal Crisis Staff and local staffs on territory of the

15     municipality."

16             Sir, as secretary of the Executive Board of the SDS, a member of

17     the Main Board, were you aware that the Prijedor SDS Municipal Board was

18     acting according to these instructions?

19        A.   No, because you can see in one paragraph it says that this is the

20     Assembly of the Serbian people.  The Assembly is a state organ, whereas I

21     have a party function.  I said in my statement that I never attended any

22     sessions of organs that adopted these variants, and I also said that no

23     organ reviewed or recorded or put on its agenda or protocol or put a seal

24     or signed any of these variants.  I don't know if the Assembly of the

25     Serbian people adopted anything; that could have happened without my

Page 28104

 1     knowledge.  Because you can see in item 1 of the agenda it says the

 2     Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 3        Q.   Sir, in your statement you indicate that Variant A and B

 4     instructions never came to fruition.  Having seen these documents, do you

 5     change your position on that?  Do you believe that, in fact, the Variant

 6     A and B instructions came into being and were acted upon?

 7        A.   I said in my statement that the organs of the Serbian Democratic

 8     Party, i.e., the Main Board, the Executive Board, the commissions and

 9     committees did not officially review this material.  Had they been

10     considering this material, this would be something that would be on

11     record, it would be signed and recorded in the protocol.  This is what I

12     said in my statement which I signed and that I stand behind.

13        Q.   Sir, if these were secret instructions at the time, wouldn't you

14     agree that they would not have gone through the formal process that you

15     describe?

16        A.   It would have gone through the formal process but it would have

17     been marked as confidential or secret.  I did not deny hearing of it.  As

18     it says in my statements, I did hear that there was some talk about

19     something like that, but I did also say that I did not attend any

20     meetings where the party organs would be adopting something like that and

21     I never heard of such a thing.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But, Witness, am I -- I'm slightly confused now.

23     You said -- you earlier said:  Well, this document says it is the

24     Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But the document

25     itself is from the SDS, which is a party.  And I think in your statement

Page 28105

 1     you said:  None of the party bodies discussed or adopted this document.

 2     Now, there clearly seems to be a discussion or at least it's part of a

 3     meeting of the party, not -- this is not an assembly, a state organ, this

 4     is a party meeting.  So I'm a bit confused about your explanation.  Could

 5     you assist me?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I reacted in relation

 7     to the document in front of me which states that in item 1 that the

 8     implementation of decisions and positions taken by the Assembly of the

 9     Serbian people of B&H.  So that's what it says in the document.  The

10     Assembly of the Serbian people referred to in item 1.  It says:

11             "By the Assembly of the Serbian people ..."

12             This is what my reaction was in relation to.  I cannot discuss

13     documents of the Assembly; I wasn't a member of it.  But I said earlier

14     and now that organs of the Serbian Democratic Party as a party never

15     looked at these documents at any meetings that I'm aware of and I should

16     be aware of all of them.  I did hear rumours about this perhaps coming

17     under consideration, but I did not ever take part in anything like that.

18     I hope that I was clear.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said that none of the party bodies

20     discussed or adopted this document.  Now, for the part of adopted I would

21     agree with you that this document says that the instructions were

22     forwarded to the SDS Municipal Board by the Assembly of the Serbian

23     people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  But it's clear, isn't it, that during

24     this meeting, which is a party meeting, because it reads at the top

25     "Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and it's a meeting

Page 28106

 1     of that party where these instructions were introduced, explained, action

 2     was taken upon them.  So that is slightly different from what you said:

 3     Well, we never discussed or adopted that.  Would you agree that this is

 4     apparently a subject of what was discussed in this meeting?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I repeat that I stand

 6     by my previous statement, and if you have any evidence pointing in the

 7     direction of any organs of the SDS considering this issue, then please

 8     put it before me.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the implementation seems to be part of what

10     was discussed at this meeting.  So to that extent I would say that

11     evidence of that, understood in that way, is at this moment in front of

12     you on your screen.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  But it is not stated anywhere

14     in this document that these were documents of the Serbian Democratic

15     Party or showing that these documents, these texts, were adopted by any

16     organs of the SDS.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to that.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, at this time I'm mindful of the clock.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             Could you give us any idea as to how much time you would still

22     need tomorrow?

23             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I anticipate needing about somewhere

24     between 30 and 40 minutes.  I'll finish in the first session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You would then stay within the assessment of the

Page 28107

 1     time.

 2             Mr. Komad, we'll adjourn for the day.  We would like to see you

 3     back tomorrow morning and we expect that your testimony will be concluded

 4     tomorrow morning.  We would like to see you back at 9.30 in the morning

 5     in this same courtroom, but I first want to instruct you that you should

 6     not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether that is testimony you

 7     have given today or whether that is testimony which you will give

 8     tomorrow.  So speak or communicate with no one about your testimony.  You

 9     may now follow the usher.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MS. BIBLES:  Your Honour, I've been advised that 65 ter 20414a or

12     P6904 is now in e-court.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then, Madam Registrar, you certainly know

15     what number had been reserved for that.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It was number P6904 reserved for 20414a.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it now having been uploaded, P6904 is admitted

18     into evidence.

19             We adjourn for the day and we will resume tomorrow, Tuesday, the

20     11th of November, 9.30 in the morning.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.17 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

23                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.