Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28280

 1                           Thursday, 13 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             I see that everyone found its way to Courtroom I, which was

 8     available again today.

 9             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, and good morning, Your Honours.

11             This is case IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Is the -- yes, good morning, Ms. Bibles.  Any matter to raise?

14             MS. BIBLES:  Yes, Your Honour.  Good mornings, Your Honours.

15             I would like to introduce Mr. Alan Tieger who I don't believe

16     actually needs much introduction but you will be seeing him in this case

17     so I do introduce him in the courtroom to this case.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I cannot say that his face is totally

19     unfamiliar to this Chamber.  Welcome in this courtroom again, Mr. Tieger.

20             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, we are.  We are

22     calling Mr. Pereula Spiro.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could the witness be escorted into the

24     courtroom.

25             Meanwhile, I use the time to raise the following matter.

Page 28281

 1             That is associated exhibits with witness Tomislav Savkic.  During

 2     the testimony of that witness, document D705 was MFI'd, pending an

 3     agreement between the parties concerning the original text and

 4     translation, and the Chamber wonders whether the parties have agreed on

 5     this matter and, if so, what the agreement was.

 6             But perhaps you -- yes, Mr. --

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, we're having a

 8     meeting with the Prosecution today, and I think that we will then resolve

 9     this matter.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll hear from the parties after that meeting.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Pereula.  Before you give

13     evidence, the Rules require --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is

16     now handed out to you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  SPIRO PEREULA

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Pereula.  Please be seated.  You will

22     be first examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find Mr. Lukic to your left.

23     Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

Page 28282

 1        Q.   Mr. Pereula, good morning.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   For the transcript, will you please slowly tell us your first and

 4     last name.

 5        A.   My name is Spiro Pereula, born on the 10th of November, 1941.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D1747, please.

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, did you give a statement to the

 9     Mladic Defence team on two occasions?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   We're now looking at a document signed --

12        A.   On the 17th, I think.

13        Q.   The 15th of July, 2014.  But I see that -- on the statement, the

14     date of the interview is recorded as being the 5th of March, 2014.  Did

15     you speak with General Mladic's Defence at that time?

16        A.   No, I did not.  From the 5th to the 17th.

17        Q.   The 5th.

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   And do you recognise the signature on the screen, on the page

20     that you are looking at?

21        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

22             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at the last

23     page.

24        Q.   Do you recognise your signature on this page?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 28283

 1        Q.   And who wrote the date at the bottom of the page?

 2        A.   I did.

 3        Q.   And is what you told us correctly recorded in this statement?

 4        A.   Yes.  There is one correction, though.

 5        Q.   Tell us what that is.

 6        A.   It's on the first page.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have the second page of this document.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters are not able to hear the

 9     witness.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you are -- could you please speak into

11     the microphone.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  The letters are very

13     tiny and so I cannot read it.

14             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please tell us what you're looking for.

16        A.   Well, what we agreed on, as far as I know, that -- to erase that

17     date when I was in the hospital.  That's all.  I don't know what page

18     that's on.

19        Q.   [In English] I lost it now too.

20             MR. LUKIC:  We need page 4 and paragraph 12.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] We notified about this, this morning.

22     Mr. Pereula, can you see it?

23        A.   Yes, I see it.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  We cannot find the part that the witness is

25     reading from; interpreter's note.

Page 28284

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you were reading from the statement.  The

 2     interpreters were unable to follow you.  Apparently you said something

 3     about you being hospitalised and what you agreed that should be taken

 4     out.  What should be taken out?

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Just read the part that needs to be deleted.

 7        A.   "Because I was at the military hospital in Sarajevo for

 8     treatment."

 9             This is something that needs to be erased.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Because it's not true?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's true but it wasn't until the

12     7th.  It was until the 3rd.  Based on the text, you could conclude that I

13     was in the hospital until the 7th, but actually I was in the hospital

14     until the 3rd of April.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  In Belgrade.  And then you returned -- Sarajevo.

16     Yes, yes, I apologise.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not in Belgrade.  I was in

18     Sarajevo.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes, sorry, that was my mistake.

20             Mr. Lukic.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Other than this correction, it's everything else

23     that was said?

24        A.   Yes, everything else is accurate and I stand by it.

25        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you give

Page 28285

 1     the same answers, in principle?

 2        A.   Yes, I would.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D1747A, please.

 4        Q.   Can you see the document in front of you, on the right side of

 5     the screen?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

 8        A.   I do.

 9        Q.   Whose signature is that?

10        A.   It's mine.

11             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please look at the last page.

12        Q.   And do you see a signature on the last page of the document?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Whose signature is that?

15        A.   It's my signature.

16        Q.   Is this your statement and is everything recorded accurately, the

17     way you said it?

18        A.   Yes, that is so.

19        Q.   And is what you said in the statement truthful?

20        A.   Yes, it is.

21        Q.   And if you were to be asked the same questions as those, would

22     you give the same answers, in principle?

23        A.   Yes, I would.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We would like to tender these two

25     statement, Your Honour.

Page 28286

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No objections.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I have one question to the witness.

 4             When you were asked whether you gave that statement on the 5th of

 5     March, you said no, no, no.  And then you said the 5th to the 17th.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  17th, yeah.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that March of this year?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you signed it -- well, let's say, in July?

10     I'm asking you.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed it in July and the

12     interview was also conducted then.  Later I got some information that I

13     added, although there isn't that much difference between the first and

14     the second.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm a bit confused.  You were interviewed in March?

16     During --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And I signed the statement on

18     the 17th -- no, the 15th of July.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's clear to me, yes.  But when you talked

20     about the second statement, what did you refer to?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, I didn't understand you.  The

22     second statement was a supplemental one because I got some new

23     information.  It talks about more details about the torture of Serbs in

24     the Sunce prison in Dobrinja in Sarajevo.  And it says in the statement

25     that Serbs were tortured in that prison, my brother was there, and so on

Page 28287

 1     and so forth.  And the statement was given to the radio television of

 2     Republika Srpska, and this is why I did later.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that was therefore the day after you had

 4     signed the first statement, you were then --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, a couple of days -- a couple of days after that.

 7     Thank you.

 8             Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D1747 will be Exhibit D779.

10             And 65 ter number 1D1747A will be Exhibit D780, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  D779 and D780 are admitted into evidence.

12             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would just briefly discuss

14     the only associated exhibit.  And I spoke with Mr. Weber this morning.

15     We want to make clear on the record that with this associated exhibit,

16     which is video with the transcript, we will rely only on the words

17     uttered by the Mr. Midhat Brica, not on the words uttered by presenters,

18     male or female presenter.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  With that understanding, the Prosecution has no

21     objections.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you want to tender it as an associated exhibit

23     now.

24             MR. LUKIC:  We would tender it, then I would not have any

25     questions for this witness.  I would just read his statement summary.

Page 28288

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's fine.  Although usually with recordings

 2     and videos, the Chamber would -- might like -- might want to have a look

 3     at it as well so as to see whether there are any further questions.

 4             Are you dealing with it Mr. Weber in any --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Then if Mr. Weber is not --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, not.

 7             MR. LUKIC: -- dealing with it, I can play it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  How long is it?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Five minutes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes.

11             MR. LUKIC:  It has to be played twice probably.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, is there a transcript?  Because the

14     Chamber -- whether we really want to look at it may also depend on the

15     transcript.

16             MR. LUKIC:  There is a transcript.  We can see it on our screens.

17     It's 1D03030.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll read the transcript during the

19     first break and see whether it's of any use to watch the video at all or

20     whether we are fully informed by having read the transcript.  Yes.

21             Then --

22             MR. LUKIC:  I would just --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you have any further questions.  If you want

24     to read the summary, then you have an opportunity to do so.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 28289

 1             As a professional soldier, Mr. Pereula performed duties at the

 2     Territorial Defence Staff of BiH since 1977.  The war found him on the

 3     position of assistant to the chief of security organ at the

 4     Territorial Defence Staff of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He

 5     witnessed the escalation of ethnic tensions as early as after the first

 6     multi-party elections.  Fearing that the weapons and equipment might come

 7     in the hands of extremists from all three peoples, the commander of the

 8     Republic Territorial Defence Staff then ordered increased measures of

 9     securing the warehouses, while part of the materiel was moved to the JNA

10     storages.

11             He is familiar with the fact that the then-Colonel Jovan Divjak,

12     who later became a general of the Muslim forces, issued weapons to the B

13     and H MUP and to the Kiseljak and Kresevo Territorial Defence without

14     knowledge and approval of the commander of the Republic Territorial

15     Defence Staff.

16             He will describe how the then-Colonel Hasan Efendic took over the

17     duty of commander of the Territorial Defence Staff of B and H on

18     7 April 1992 and completely divided the staff by ethnic lines.

19             Mr. Pereula then moved to the 2nd Military District Command, and

20     on 19th April he went to Pale and took part in the establishing of the

21     Serb Territorial Defence, while the Muslims had already established their

22     Army of the Republic of B and H.

23             When the VRS was established, he came to the Main Staff of the

24     VRS as a clerk at the sector for intelligence and security affairs, and

25     in late 1993 he was moved to the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.

Page 28290

 1     He remained on that position throughout the war.

 2             He will testify about General Mladic as a person and as a

 3     soldier.  Also, he will describe the way of communication with the VRS

 4     Main Staff by way of dispatches.

 5             Because he lived in Sarajevo with his family before the war,

 6     Mr. Pereula will present his observations about the situation in Sarajevo

 7     following the multi-party elections.  He will testify about kidnapping

 8     and monstrous torching of his brother by the Muslims at the camp for

 9     Serbs located in the basement of the Sunce cafe at Dobrinja.

10             That was short statement summary and we do not have questions for

11     this witness at this moment.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

13             Mr. Pereula, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Weber.  I'll

14     find Mr. Weber to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution.

15             Mr. Lukic has read a summary of your statement and has no further

16     questions, but that means that the Judges have read your statement so

17     they are aware of what your evidence is up till this moment.

18             Mr. Weber, please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

20                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Pereula.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Sir, today I'd like to start off by discussing the securing of

24     weapons before the war.  This something you discuss in paragraphs 5 and 6

25     of your 15 July 2014 statement.  In paragraph 5 of your statement, you

Page 28291

 1     state:

 2             "After the multi-party elections of 1990, and especially during

 3     1991, the interethnic tensions increased at the TO Staff as well."

 4             For clarity, when you refer to the multi-party elections, is it

 5     correct that you are talking about the multi-party elections held on 18

 6     November 1990?

 7        A.   I'm not talking about the multi-party elections.  I'm talking

 8     about the consequences of the multi-party elections as they reflected on

 9     members of the Territorial Defence.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to come

11     closer to the microphone.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please come closer to the microphone when

13     speaking.

14             Could the usher assist.

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Sir, we'll come to that in a second.  But I just want to know

17     when you are referring to the multi-party elections, you were referring

18     to the elections held on 18 November 1990; is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P3083.

21        Q.   And, sir, I understand that it's your evidence that your view is

22     that as a consequence of these elections, there was certain actions taken

23     to secure the weaponry.  I'd like to look at some documentation and then

24     I'll come back to that.

25             This is a 14 May 1990 SSNO order numbered 19-1 from Blagoje Adzic

Page 28292

 1     concerning the safekeeping -- sir can you see it?  It's related to the

 2     safekeeping of weapons and ammunition of the TO.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, maybe to assist the witness --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, could we --

 5             MR. WEBER:  -- if we could just get the B/C/S enlarged for the

 6     witness on the screen.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And could the usher --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And could the usher assist on a constant basis that

 9     the microphone is always situated in such a way.  And could we have

10     enlarged this portion because it's not easy to read it.

11             Any specific part, Mr. Weber, you want to?

12             MR. WEBER:  I was just coming to that, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. WEBER:

15        Q.   According to item 1, General Adzic orders the various military

16     commands together with the TO Staffs of the republics and provinces to

17     "take other storage and safekeeping of the complete stock of the TO

18     weapons and ammunition in the JNA supply dumps and depots."  Sir, before

19     I ask my question, do you see that portion?

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Were you aware of this order?

22        A.   I did not know about it.  This something that only senior-ranking

23     officers could have known about, such as the commander of the

24     Republican Staff of the TO, and then he was the one who would proceed to

25     issue specific orders to us.

Page 28293

 1        Q.   Is it correct that TO weapons and ammunition were relocated to

 2     JNA facilities before 14 June 1990?

 3        A.   I could not say anything specific, no.  I mean, this was written

 4     up -- well, what I should say first is that the ammunition and weapons of

 5     the Territorial Defence were partly in our depots that were not of the

 6     JNA, and then part of them were in JNA depots.  After this escalation, a

 7     conclusion was reached; namely, that our warehouses were not safe.  And

 8     an order was issued:  Wherever there are JNA depots nearby and of the

 9     Territorial Defence, the weapons should be transferred there.  For

10     example, in Kiseljak, There was a JNA depot and --

11        Q.   Sir, we have your statement.  There is no need to repeat it.  I

12     appreciate what your statement says.

13             My question was were you aware specifically about the relocation

14     of TO weaponries into JNA facilities.  I'll broaden it a little bit more.

15     Were you aware of any relocation prior to the multi-party elections in

16     November 1990?

17        A.   No, no.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 02960 for

20     the witness.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that, maybe it's important to

22     record on the transcript that date of this order is the 14th of May,

23     1990.

24             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25        Q.   Mr. Pereula, this is a 13 September 1990 Socialist Republic of

Page 28294

 1     BiH Republican Territorial Defence Staff report from commander

 2     Milos Bajcetic.  It's related to the better protection of the armaments

 3     and ammunition of the TO of the SRBiH.  I'd like to direct your attention

 4     before I ask some questions to the first part.  At the beginning of the

 5     report, Commander Bajcetic refers to the 14 May 1990 order number 19-1

 6     from Blagoje Adzic, which we just saw.

 7             In the second paragraph, the report states:

 8             "The relocation of the TO SRBiH armaments and ammunition was

 9     carried out between 18 May and 23 May 1990 with the exception of the

10     region of Bihac and Banja Luka where it was completed on 13 June 1990."

11             Do you see these portions of the report?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Sir, based on this information, it appears that there was quite

14     significant steps taken to relocate the weapons.  As an official in the

15     Security Administration, how is it that you were not aware of this?

16        A.   Yes, it's possible.  Because links with the commander of the

17     Territorial Defence -- or rather, it was my commander, Nikola Andjelic,

18     who was the person through who I communicated or they were the ones who

19     communicated with the main command.  And then at that meeting these

20     questions were resolved.  At the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina, we had

21     District Staffs of the Territorial Defence and there was a security organ

22     in every District Staff, and I was not involved directly to go there and

23     do that.  That was done by the security organs in that area and other

24     organs who were needed in order to have this carried out.  I just knew

25     that weapons and ammunition needed to be placed there where they would

Page 28295

 1     have proper security.  In these concrete cases it was not my task and I

 2     didn't do that, and it's possible I didn't -- well, when the situation

 3     got worse - that's 1991 - and when Yugoslavia was broken up and so on,

 4     then I was more involved in the protection of facilities in the area of

 5     Sarajevo.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, this is a very long answer, but I

 7     understand the issue to be that in your statement, you say that it

 8     happened after the multi-party elections, whereas the document shown to

 9     you suggests that it happened well before that date.

10             So apart from your explanations --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm saying, I am telling you

12     about when I found about this problem about this case.  I'm speaking

13     about myself.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, in your statement you are telling us what

15     happened.  You do not say, I learned about this at that point in time.

16     No.  You say this happened after the multi-party elections, whereas the

17     document suggests, and it seems that you do not disagree necessarily with

18     that, that it happened well before the multi-party elections.  That's the

19     issue apparently.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not denying that.  But

21     what I am saying is when I found out about this, and this document shows

22     that this happened in 1990, that the order arrived.  But I mean, at that

23     time I did not know about that --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all fine and we now understand it, but that's

25     not what your statement sayings.  Your statement doesn't say I learned

Page 28296

 1     about this at that point in time.  The statement says it happened then.

 2     And that is therefore, if I understand you well, unreliable because

 3     it's -- relates to the time you learned about it which is different from

 4     the time when it happened.

 5             Let's proceed.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 2960

 7     into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P6911, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Mr. Pereula, I want to go forward to the spring of 1992.  In

13     paragraph 9 of your 15 July 2014 statement, you state:

14             "At the end of March and the beginning of April, the whole city

15     was under barricades."

16             Is it correct that the JNA 2nd Military District had been

17     distributing weapons to Territorial Defence Staffs in the area of

18     Sarajevo prior to the end of March 1992?

19        A.   I don't know about that.

20        Q.   Well, I'd like to look at something then specific.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 18369 for

22     the witness.

23        Q.   Sir, this is a 2 March 1992 order from Colonel General Kukanjac

24     of the 2nd Military District.  According to this document, Kukanjac

25     instructs subordinate commands to issue 250 7.62-millimetre automatic

Page 28297

 1     rifles to the Novo Sarajevo TO Staff.  How is it that you were not aware

 2     of this in your position as a member of the Territorial Defence Staff of

 3     the republican TO?

 4        A.   Well, I did not belong to the command of the 2nd Military

 5     District.  That did not go through the Republican Staff or Territorial

 6     Defence.  The Territorial Defence was most certainly not aware of that.

 7     It went down the chain to the subordinated commands.

 8        Q.   I'm a bit at loss for a portion of your answer there, since it

 9     appears that these weapons are directed to the Territorial Defence Staff

10     in Novo Sarajevo.  Do you have anything to say about that?

11        A.   I have nothing to say.  I don't know about any of this.

12             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 18369 into

13     evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6912, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4932 for

18     the witness.

19        Q.   I want to now return to the security of weaponry in JNA

20     facilities.  This is a 7 March 1992 2nd Military District order from

21     General Kukanjac.  Under item 1, he orders all levels of commands to

22     reassess the level of risk to facilities, personnel, and MTS and take

23     measures that will guarantee their full security.  Do you see this

24     portion?

25        A.   I see the document, I do.

Page 28298

 1             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

 2     versions.

 3        Q.   I'd also like to focus your attention under item 10 where

 4     General Kukanjac orders materiel, particularly weapons, ammunition, and

 5     MES, which cannot be defended successfully to be transferred to

 6     appropriate locations in good time.  Are you aware of any actions

 7     undertaken by the Territorial Defence in relation to this order?

 8        A.   You mean this paragraph 10?

 9        Q.   Sure.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, do we see only part of paragraph 10 in

11     English?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  When in my

13     statement I spoke about things, it is precisely these things that I

14     meant.  That is to say, I've already said this, there were

15     Territorial Defence depots that were not safe for ammunition and weapons

16     and then this was transferred to JNA depots, and I meant the period when

17     I was familiar with all of this.  I mean during that first period when

18     you took me to 1990.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, to answer your question, no, all

20     paragraph 10 is not currently on the screen in the English version.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have the part you quoted on our screens.

22     Yes.  Please proceed.

23             MR. WEBER:  I actually have no further questions on the document.

24     I don't know if Your Honours have any more now seeing the full text.  I'm

25     sorry for that inconvenience.

Page 28299

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I have no further questions at this moment.

 2             MR. WEBER:  All right.

 3        Q.   I'm going move on to a different topic and discuss, actually,

 4     your activities during the war.  Is it correct that you dealt with the

 5     exchange of prisoners from the KPD Butmir, that facility?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Is it correct that you -- took part actually in meetings at the

 8     Sarajevo airport regarding the exchange of prisoners?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is it correct that representative -- or at least a representative

11     of the ICRC attended these meetings?

12        A.   I cannot remember.  As a rule he should have been there, but I

13     cannot remember now.  It was a long time ago.

14        Q.   Maybe this will refresh your recollection.

15             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 06175.

16        Q.   Sir, this is a report on a meeting held at the Sarajevo airport

17     on Wednesday, the 6th of October, 1993.  It deals with the release -- I'm

18     going to read it to you.

19        A.   I'm sorry, I don't have any translation.

20        Q.   I'm going to read it to you.  Let me know if you have any

21     questions.  It deals with the release of detainees from Tarcin and Kula.

22     Did you -- were you aware of the Kula prison?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   According to this document in attendance were a number of

25     individuals, including a representative of UNPROFOR, the ICRC, an UNMO

Page 28300

 1     representatives of the BiH, and three representatives from the Bosnian

 2     Serb army, the VRS, including Colonel Magazin, Colonel Beara, and

 3     yourself.  According to these -- according to this report there's a

 4     discussion of an exchange of prisons between the Kula and Tarcin

 5     facilities.  Do you recall this meeting?

 6        A.   No, really I cannot remember this meeting.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall having meetings like this where you would

 8     discuss the exchange of prisoners in the presence of Colonel Beara?

 9        A.   No.  This was the first time I was with Colonel Beara and I never

10     attended an exchange with him after that.  I was a member of the

11     commission on behalf of the Army of Republika Srpska, this commission for

12     the exchange of information, and in that capacity I attended meetings

13     down there at the airport.  But when I was present, no one was ever

14     exchanged because this was done in different ways, along different lines.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Witness, you said you don't remember this meeting,

16     but in the same breath you say this is only time that you were in a

17     meeting with Colonel Beara.  How do you remember that you were in this

18     meeting with Colonel Beara if you can't remember this meeting?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot deny what is written

20     here.  I don't remember this meeting, that I was there with Beara.  But

21     that's what's written here and --

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you.  Let me stop you, sir.  You

23     didn't say you don't deny, you say you don't remember.  I'm not asking

24     you about any denial.  You say you don't remember the meeting, but you

25     know that this is a meeting -- the only meeting that you had with

Page 28301

 1     Colonel Beara.  I'm just asking how do you remember that if you don't

 2     remember, the meeting itself?  I'm not talking about denials.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, all right.  I came to the

 4     conclusion that this was a meeting with Beara because I saw this on this

 5     list and maybe it was a slip of the tongue.  Maybe --

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Okay.  The fact that Colonel Beara is

 7     mentioned reminds you now of this meeting.  You do remember this meeting?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I make clear to you that you should

11     not draw conclusions on the basis of what you see on your screen.  You

12     should tell us what your recollection is.  So don't say that was the only

13     meeting I had with Beara if you have no recollection whatsoever about

14     having been in a meeting with Beara.  You're not supposed to interpret

15     what you see on the screen.  You're supposed to tell us what you remember

16     that happened at the time.  And if you've forgotten about it, there's no

17     problem.  But we'd rather know then.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender this

20     document but we ask to have it MFI'd for the translation.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI'd P6913.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Pereula, is it correct that civilians were kept in the Kula

Page 28302

 1     prison?

 2        A.   I don't know about that because I was not present down there.

 3     Other persons worked down there in security.  I never visited Kula.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31595.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we look at that, could I seek clarification

 6     of one of the previous answers of the witness.

 7             You said you were a member of the commission on behalf of the

 8     Army of Republika Srpska, the commission for the exchange of information.

 9     Was that about prisoners or was it not about prisoners?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was a member of the

11     Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners of War on behalf of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska.  And there were other members of the commission on

13     behalf of the government, so I --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, please limit your answers to my

15     questions.  When you had these meetings at the airport, with whom did you

16     have those meetings?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We had meetings with the other

18     side, with the representatives of the Muslims and Croats.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And you said no prisoners were exchanged

20     there; I understand that.  But the subject of discussion was the exchange

21     of prisoners?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And you had no knowledge where these prisoners came

24     from or where they were detained, or did you have any knowledge?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.  We had the task to

Page 28303

 1     exchange people, but since we could not reach a concrete agreement, I

 2     don't know of concrete cases.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, may I put a follow-up question.

 5             Just now you said, "We had the task to exchange people..."  What

 6     kind of people are you referring to?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically my task was to

 8     exchange military persons, military personnel, and other members of the

 9     commission probably had the task to exchange other people who had been

10     taken prisoner.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What kind of other people?  Are you talking about

12     civilians?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I mean prisoners of war,

14     civilians and soldiers and officers who had been taken prisoner, yes.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I know it's a little bit early but I

17     just have -- before going into -- I don't have much more, so before going

18     into a whole subject and then returning to it after the recess, is there

19     any way we can just take the quick break and then I will finish rather

20     quickly in the next session?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think the estimate was two and a half hours?

22             MR. WEBER:  I believe it is one and a half.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  One and a half.  So you'll be considerably shorter.

24             MR. WEBER:  I'll be within -- based on the answers of the

25     witness, yes, I'll finish well within the hour and a half.

Page 28304

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, let's first -- Witness, we'll take a

 2     break of 20 minutes and we'd like to see you back after that break.

 3             And I'm looking at you, Mr. Lukic, the next witness is ...

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The next witness is coming in the next week.  You

 6     know that we have shortcoming this week since one of our witnesses got

 7     sick.  And we -- [Overlapping speakers]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I know that.  But did you --

 9             MR. LUKIC:  We didn't bring anybody.  We couldn't bring anybody

10     else.  And we didn't expect to finish this early today.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because I remember earlier I asked you whether

12     the next witness would be available and you told us that he was and

13     that's true, but that's -- the follow-up was not available is -- I think

14     it would be have been wiser if you would have warned us that we would

15     have known already in advance that there was a fair chance that would you

16     run out of witnesses this week.

17             Let's take the break first and let's resume -- well, let me be

18     generous again.  22 minutes.  Ten minutes to 11.00.

19                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

20                           --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be escorted

22     into the courtroom, I'd also briefly like to deal with 65 ter 1D02733

23     which was tendered during the testimony of Mane Djuric.  The decision on

24     the admission of this 40-page document was deferred, pending an agreement

25     between the parties concerning the ethnicity of people listed in the

Page 28305

 1     document and about the number of pages which should be received in

 2     evidence.  On the 11th of November the Prosecution informed the Chamber

 3     that it had not reached an agreement with the Defence concerning the

 4     ethnicity of people listed in the document.  On the same day the Defence

 5     requested the admission into evidence of the entire 40-page document, and

 6     the Chamber would like to hear the position of the Prosecution concerning

 7     the admission of the whole of the document but not necessarily

 8     immediately because we're not -- we'd prefer that we first focus on

 9     hearing the evidence of Mr. Pereula.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:  Just one housekeeping matter related to this witness.

13     The Prosecution has received the B/C/S translation for 65 ter 06175,

14     which was just marked for identification this morning as P06913.  We just

15     wanted to inform the Chamber that the translation is now uploaded under

16     document ID ZA018615BCS -- BC.  Excuse me.  The Prosecution would just

17     ask that the Court Officer be instructed to attach the translation and

18     the document be admitted.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The instruction is given accordingly.

20             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection against admission?  Not.  Then P6913,

22     once the translation is attached, is admitted into evidence.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Mr. Pereula, before the break, we were discussing the commission

Page 28306

 1     that you were a part of.  The president of that commission was

 2     Captain Dragan Bulajic; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31595.

 5        Q.   This is a Republika Srpska government central commission for the

 6     exchange of prisoners and civilians list containing information on

 7     persons from KPD Butmir.  Just so you know, this document was recovered

 8     from the Office of the Prosecutor from KPD Butmir.  You are mentioned

 9     throughout this report, and I just want to go through some of the

10     information with you today, if you could assist us.

11             The first person listed is a Mr. Ahmic.  According to the

12     description --

13             MR. WEBER:  And maybe if we could increase the -- the top portion

14     of the B/C/S version for the witness on the page before him.

15        Q.   The first person listed is a Mr. Ahmic.

16        A.   Something is crossed out in my version.  I don't have that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whatever is crossed out, you don't have to

18     worry about that.  Just follow carefully what Mr. Weber brings to your

19     attention.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   The first person is Mr. Ahmic.  According to this description

22     Mr. Ahmic was a Muslim who is transferred to another prison on

23     13 December 1992, and he was on a list of persons from Manjaca that was

24     held in KPD Dom Butmir.  Did you have access to this type of information

25     as part of your involvement with the exchange commissions?

Page 28307

 1        A.   I am not aware of this, no.  I wasn't engaged on the transfer of

 2     persons from the Kula prison to ... to other prisons.

 3        Q.   You are mentioned in this description as providing information on

 4     24 April 1993.  Is it correct that you provided information on detainees

 5     that were being kept in various detention facilities?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat whether he said

 7     yes or no.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer, Witness.  I

 9     think you said no.  Is that true?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Meaning that you did not provide that

12     information.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber, where can we see the witness's name on

14     this part of the document?

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Sir, according this --

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers].

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   -- document, it says --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Oh yes, I see it now on the seventh line.  Thank

21     you.

22             MR. WEBER:  Thank you.  Occupation, driver; ethnicity, Muslim --

23     I'm sorry.  This is the wrong description.  Occupation, tile layer;

24     nationality, Muslim; currently held in Lukavica prison according to

25     information received from Major Pereula in Crna Rijeka on 24 April 1993.

Page 28308

 1        Q.   Sir, do you see that reference?

 2        A.   I can see that.  I can see that, but ...

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

 4     of the sentence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat what you said after:  I see that.

 6     What did you then say?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I did not provide this

 8     information.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Sir, it's not our position that you provided all of this

11     information, but is it correct that you did provide information?  Do you

12     understand?

13        A.   I did not provide information at all.

14        Q.   You do agree that this is a reference to you; correct?

15        A.   That's what it's -- says, but I did not do this.

16        Q.   Further along in this description, it indicates that

17     Soniboj Skrljevic provided information that Mr. Ahmic was killed by a

18     sniper on 13 April 1994.  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.  In 1993, 1994, yes, I see that.

20        Q.   Sir, is it correct that as part of your role in the exchange

21     commission you became aware of prisoners who were dying in detention

22     facilities, like Mr. Ahmic?

23        A.   I'm not aware of that either.  If I can explain my reply -- or my

24     role in the commission.

25        Q.   Sir --

Page 28309

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you first explain why such information, as you

 2     say, is not accurate, is not true, would appear in this document?  If you

 3     have any explanation for it.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a specific

 5     explanation.  I don't know how this came about, but -- I don't know.  For

 6     sure, I did not ever provide information of this kind.

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Sir, my question wasn't -- my last question wasn't necessarily

 9     meant to intend that you provided such information.  But is it correct

10     you received such information?

11        A.   I did not receive such information either.  This is why I wanted

12     to explain my role as a member of this commission.  I did not receive

13     this kind of information, and I did not send out this kind of

14     information.

15        Q.   Okay.  I want to go through a couple of more examples and maybe

16     we can figure this out together.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps the witness could explain what his role was

18     where he apparently was not privy to --

19             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- information, either receiving or providing.

21             Could you explain what your role was?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Commission for the Exchange of

23     Prisoners of War was formed under the government of Republika Srpska, and

24     this lasted for a while, for a considerable period of time, and then the

25     government also said that there should be a representative of the Army of

Page 28310

 1     Republika Srpska there.  So then after two or three months, once the

 2     commission existed, I was assigned by the Main Staff to be a member of

 3     this commission, and so I attended the sessions of the commission with

 4     Captain Bulatovic [as interpreted], who was the president, and there were

 5     two or three other members, and Amir Masovic was in the commission as a

 6     representative of the Muslim side.  When I would come to these meetings,

 7     for the most part we would discuss in general how prisoners of war should

 8     be exchanged.

 9             And while I was in the commission, we did not -- we did not

10     actually exchange a single prisoner of war.  When I saw that, I orally

11     informed the Main Staff that there's no role for me in this commission

12     because real things are not being discussed in the commission when I am

13     present.  So I attended the commission sessions very rarely.  Nothing

14     would ever be resolved.  But I was never officially removed as a member

15     of the commission, even though I wasn't a member of it anymore.  So I was

16     there in the initial period, and all this information and data was not

17     conveyed through me.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But if I may just ask a question, sir.  We

19     understand your explanation.  But this document on the screen here

20     describes a meeting at which you were present, your name is being

21     mentioned in this particular document.  So is it possible that this could

22     be one of the few meetings that you attended?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was on the 8th of September,

24     1993.  I don't recall this meeting.  I don't recall that we ever

25     exchanged a single prisoner of war while I was a member of the

Page 28311

 1     commission, and I personally never sent out any information about

 2     prisoners of war to any of the prisons, and I never received such

 3     information, in turn, from the prisons.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   Sir, I just want to clarify some things that just -- on the

 7     transcript.

 8             In your last answer, in your last longer answer, the transcript

 9     records you as saying the president of the commission was

10     Captain Bulatovic.  Is it correct that you mean to be referring to

11     Dragan Bulajic?

12        A.   No.  Dragan Bulajic.

13        Q.   Thank you, that's clear.  You said you were appointed to the

14     commission by the VRS Main Staff.  Who appointed you?

15        A.   I cannot remember now.  I received an order.  Probably it was the

16     commander of the Main Staff.

17        Q.   General Mladic.

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31595 into evidence.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6914, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 30761 for

24     the witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, just glancing through the document we

Page 28312

 1     just looked at, I saw that it was not only in relation to the first

 2     witness -- to the first person, but that for -- I went now to three, but

 3     that in all of those reports it is said that Mr. Pereula provided

 4     information.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, I think it's most, not all.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No, the --

 7             MR. WEBER:  -- but, yes, there are the -- [Overlapping speakers].

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- ones I saw, the first three.

 9             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, are you aware that for some of the other

11     persons which were discussed in this document that you're also referred

12     to as a person who provided information although on some, I do understand

13     also, you were not mentioned as someone who provided information?

14             Any explanation for this not happening once but a number of times

15     in this document?  And sometimes not being mentioned, which means that it

16     was apparently not an automatism.  Yes.  No, I'm still talking about the

17     previous document, Witness, so don't -- you don't have to read what's on

18     your screen now.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was officially appointed to be a

20     commission member by the Main Staff, and those who were in the main

21     commission knew it as well as the others knew it.  However, I'm saying

22     now that my role in that was a minor one.  I simply had the feeling that

23     I was not accepted in the commission, and it's possible that in view of

24     the fact that this was a -- an official thing, whoever drafted the

25     document, they put me into the document in the belief that I was an

Page 28313

 1     official representative.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And sometimes they do mention you and

 3     sometimes they apparently do not mention you, so it's apparently not

 4     something of an automatic nature, but it's -- it's -- seems to be more

 5     than that.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All I am asserting is this:  When

 7     we're talking about specific persons, I was never present and I never

 8     provided any information about specific persons.  Meaning, in meetings --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But also not outside meetings.  You said you

10     never provided any information.  Your role was minimal?  Or did you ever

11     provide information?  On whatever?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never gave any information to the

13     prisons.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  What -- to the commission.  Did you provide any

15     information about whatever matter directly related to your position in

16     the commission?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I never did.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   All right, sir.  Before you, this is a 24 April 1993 VRS

21     Main Staff urgent request from General Manojlo Milovanovic.  In the first

22     part of this request, it states:

23             "With the aim of providing details of prisoners to the GS VRS,"

24     the Main Staff, "and conducting talks on the exchange of prisoners of war

25     and civilians, compile or update and send us the following lists ..."

Page 28314

 1             Do you see this part?  It's at the very beginning.

 2        A.   List of prisoners of war, a list of all those detained in the

 3     territory, all who are in the village of ...

 4        Q.   Sir, you don't have to read the document to me.

 5        A.   Could you -- could you please read that once again.  I wasn't

 6     following.

 7        Q.   I am starting at the very beginning, the part that says:  "With

 8     the aim" -- that starts:  "With the aim of..." and then goes on to say --

 9     sir --

10        A.   Providing details.  That what's it says here.  Providing details.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, Witness.

12             Mr. Weber, would you please read to the witness what you consider

13     relevant.

14             And, Witness, would you not further look at your screen but

15     carefully listen to what Mr. Weber reads.

16             MR. WEBER:  Of course, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Sir, I just want to focus your attention on the first part which

18     states:

19             "With the aim of providing details of prisoners to the GS VRS and

20     conducting talks on the exchange of prisoners of war and civilians,

21     compile or update and send us the following lists ..."

22             Do you see that beginning portion?

23        A.   I wasn't following him now.  I need to ...

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you hear -- Mr. Weber read to you how it starts.

25             Mr. Weber, could you please put a question to the witness.

Page 28315

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 2             MR. WEBER:

 3        Q.   Is it correct that the Main Staff would send orders to compile or

 4     update lists of prisoners to all subordinate VRS corps, as we see here?

 5        A.   I am not aware of that.  Perhaps the Main Staff did that along a

 6     different line from a higher level.  I wasn't in the situation to know

 7     that.  The principle of subordination is such that when information is

 8     given, it's issued only to those authorised to receive or know that

 9     information.  I am not aware of this.  I didn't need to know this.

10        Q.   Okay.  Let's focus on another part of this document.

11             MR. WEBER:  If we could go towards the bottom of the English

12     version.

13        Q.   And, sir, it's towards the bottom in front of you too.  In the

14     last paragraph, General Milovanovic states:

15             "Upon completion of this task, immediately begin compiling or

16     updating lists of Serbian prisoners of war, civilian prisoners and

17     detainees in prisons in Muslim-controlled territory, as well as prisoners

18     of war in prisons in Muslim-controlled territory..."

19             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the next page of the English:

20        Q.   "... and Muslim prisoners of war and captured civilians in the

21     prisons of the RS."

22             That last part about the Muslim prisoners of war and captured

23     civilians in the prisons of the RS, that is a reference to civilians in

24     the prisons of Republika Srpska; correct?

25        A.   Prisons in Republika Srpska and prisons in the Muslim part as

Page 28316

 1     well.  They're asking for Muslims, civilians, and captured Muslim

 2     civilians in the prisons of Republika Srpska, yes.

 3        Q.   And this is the type of information you had available to you,

 4     right, in your role in the exchange commission?

 5        A.   I am saying again all such orders and requests were sent by the

 6     staff command, higher-ranking organs such as the chief here,

 7     Manojlo Milovanovic, and all of that was sent to lower commands, corps.

 8     The corps were obliged to provide this information, again, on the basis

 9     of information from their subordinate units, brigades.  So none of that

10     was conveyed through me.  All of that went by other channels, not through

11     me.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could I -- Witness, this document

13     clearly states that it aims at obtaining information about persons

14     detained in view of discussions for exchange.  Now whether you saw this

15     document or not, were you aware that such information was gathered for

16     the discussions on the exchange?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And you never received or obtained information which

19     one would expect to be gathered on the basis of such a -- such an order?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was not the system of our

21     work.  That means that I was outside of all of that, although I had been

22     appointed.  But I did not receive this information, I did not gather this

23     information, and this information did not go through me.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  As you explained before, you had no idea what

25     happened there.  Did you ever ask for your resignation in writing?

Page 28317

 1     Because you were not informed, you did not play any role, you were there

 2     just for nothing.  That's at least how I understand your testimony.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  That's right.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And you never -- and you never asked for your

 5     resignation in writing?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never asked for that in writing,

 7     but orally, yes.  And I was discharged from that duty only after the war

 8     ended.  And it was done officially by the government of Republika Srpska.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You are aware that if the Chamber receives

10     this type of evidence, written evidence, documentary evidence, that it

11     might assist us in interpreting it if someone would explain to us what it

12     was all about.  But do I understand you well that you are not in a

13     position in any way to further explain what we see here, apart from that

14     you didn't know about it?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not in a position to explain.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have to do -- we'll have to interpret

17     this evidence without being assisted by your knowledge.

18             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:

20        Q.   Sir, I just want to give you a fair opportunity to comment

21     consistent with my own obligations here before the Chamber.  We saw a

22     document where you were -- according to it where you were providing

23     information to the exchange commission.  The date of that information

24     even that we specifically looked at was 24th of April, 1993.  And

25     incidentally here we now look at another document dated the same day

Page 28318

 1     where this information is being collected by the Main Staff.

 2             I see that you're smiling and that you smiled at a response to a

 3     couple of my answers.  I put it to you that based on your role in the

 4     commission that your evidence is actually not accurate.  Do you have any

 5     other comment?

 6        A.   No.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on, Mr. Weber.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the Prosecution -- or

 9     the Prosecution tenders this document into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6915, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 06178 for

14     the witness.

15        Q.   Sir, this next document is, I believe, a document that you saw

16     before in the Popovic case.  This is a 13 June 1993 request from you.  Is

17     it correct that you sent this document from the Drina Corps IKM in

18     Cajnice?

19        A.   I wrote this.

20        Q.   And you sent it from the Drina Corps forward command post in

21     Cajnice; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   We see the stamp from the command of the 1st Podrinje Light

24     Infantry Brigade, indicating this was received on the same date.  Is it

25     correct that you sent this document to Colonel Miletic in the

Page 28319

 1     Security Administration of the 1st Podrinje Brigade?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You state at the beginning of the document:

 4             "Muslim armed forces in Gorazde have been placed in a very

 5     unfavourable position.  Soldiers and citizens are in a state of panic."

 6             Is it correct that this was the outcome of VRS operations and

 7     activities in the area of Gorazde prior to this date, before the 13th of

 8     June 1993?

 9        A.   Sorry, what was that question?  Could you please repeat that

10     question.  I really do apologise.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And could you speak, please, into the microphone.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   No problem, sir.

14        A.   I would just like to ask him to repeat that question.

15        Q.   Of course.  I'm going --

16        A.   What's the question?

17        Q.   No problem.  You state at the beginning of the document:

18             "Muslim armed forces in Gorazde have been placed in a very

19     unfavourable position.  Soldiers and citizens are in a state of panic."

20             Is it correct that this was the outcome of VRS operations in the

21     area of Gorazde prior to June -- 13 June 1993?

22        A.   Well, at any rate, these were the consequences of that combat.  I

23     cannot remember the dates when all of this happened; but, at any rate,

24     this happened before my report.  I mean, the consequences of combat.

25        Q.   In the next sentence, you state:

Page 28320

 1             "We decided to use propaganda more in order to carry out further

 2     combat activities and realise our goal (liberation of Gorazde) as

 3     successfully as possible."

 4             When you say "we decided," you were referring to the -- to a

 5     decision of the VRS Main Staff; correct?

 6        A.   No, no.  I would have to explain this a bit.  First of all, we

 7     were not liberating Gorazde.  Before that, in August 1992, we were --

 8        Q.   Sir --

 9        A.   -- we had left and our task was to --

10        Q.   Sir --

11        A.   -- return this territory and --

12        Q.   Sir, my question is much more focused about that.  There is a

13     specific reference that you are writing here that you say "we decided to

14     use more propaganda."  Who is the "we" that decided to use more

15     propaganda, who are you referring to, the "we"?

16        A.   The forward command post, the command of the forward command

17     post.

18        Q.   Okay.  Then when you state "our goal (liberation of Gorazde),"

19     you're referring to a goal of the VRS then; correct?

20        A.   Well, I'm referring to our units, our command, that received that

21     task.

22        Q.   I'm not sure, just based on what happened, that that was the

23     complete answer.  Was that your complete answer?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  But I would like to ask you.  You said of the orders

25     you received, could you tell us from whom you received those orders for

Page 28321

 1     the liberation of Gorazde?  The task, I should say, not orders.  But who

 2     gave you that task?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Main Staff gave us that task.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But we were not liberating Gorazde.

 6     We were returning lost territories.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's all fine, but the document which you

 8     sent says "liberation of Gorazde."  But you are now interpreting that,

 9     which is fine, and we have then the text and your interpretation.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   According to the next paragraphs, a message was composed which

13     was intended to be broadcast on air on radios in Foca, Visegrad, and Rudo

14     as well as on a megaphone from a moving armoured combat vehicle.  You

15     then provide the text of the message, and it starts:  "Muslims from

16     Gorazde ..."  Is it correct that this message was directed to all Muslims

17     in Gorazde and not just soldiers?

18        A.   No, just soldiers and officers.  And this message did not even

19     reach the soldiers or officers or citizens of Gorazde because, to this

20     day, that population lives in Gorazde and even then they did not react to

21     this.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

23     be asked to speak into the microphone.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please not lean back all the time

25     but rather come closer to the microphone.

Page 28322

 1             MR. WEBER:

 2        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that the answer you just gave is somewhat

 3     inconsistent from a previous answer you gave during the Popovic

 4     proceedings, where you were asked at transcript page 24194:

 5             "Now, that is a message, I suggest to you, first of all, wait for

 6     the question, first of all, it's directed to the Muslims of Gorazde,

 7     isn't it?  That doesn't say soldiers?"

 8             Your answer was:

 9             "Yes."

10             Do you have any comment?

11        A.   I do.  I think this is an error made by the person who was

12     typing.  And it was in war time.  But I as the drafter never meant that.

13     I meant officers and soldiers.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me interrupt you right away.  Do you

15     think that your answer in the Popovic case was wrongly recorded?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll verify that on the basis of the audio,

18     Witness, because we -- we very much are in favour of accuracy in this

19     respect.

20             Mr. Weber, I take it that --

21             MR. WEBER:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- proper care will be taken, that you verify, and

23     if there is any -- it would be only fair to the witness that if there is

24     a mistake then, of course --

25             MR. WEBER:  Yeah.  It is, Your Honours -- we've discussed or our

Page 28323

 1     position is that the official transcript does accurately record it and of

 2     course we'll check.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Would you please do that and then inform the

 4     Defence about the outcome of your check as well.  Please proceed.

 5             MR. WEBER:

 6        Q.   The body of the message states:

 7             "You have realised that both of world and Alija have left you

 8     high and dry.  Allah himself will help you if you listen to us.  We offer

 9     you salvation because we are the only ones who can save you.  Break up

10     from those who have driven to you death for months and take the road to

11     salvation.  Head towards Kopaci and Ustipraca.  There we guarantee you

12     life and final relief.  There we offer you shelter and deliverance, and

13     then a road of your choice.  It is far away from the hell Alija took you

14     to.  Hoist the white flag and be on your way.  We are waiting for you in

15     Ustipraca.  You don't have much time."

16             Isn't it correct that you intended in this message to have the

17     Muslims in Gorazde surrender and leave?

18        A.   No.  In war time, of course all propaganda is allowed.  Well, not

19     all propaganda, but propaganda that ensures victory.  So through this

20     propaganda, I did not mean all citizens.  I was referring to soldiers and

21     officers.  We were not fighting with civilians, with citizens.  We were

22     fighting soldiers and officers, and all of this, what I said, has to do

23     with officers and soldiers in order to create a feeling of uncertainty

24     among them and in order to win the battle.  It did not pertain to

25     civilians.

Page 28324

 1        Q.   Nowhere in this message do you differentiate between civilians

 2     and soldiers; correct?

 3        A.   I agree that that is not written here, but I repeat:  The typist,

 4     who was not knowledgeable at all -- I mean, this is not even military

 5     terminology.  Oh, all right.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Excuse me, did you sign this document, sir, before

 7     you signed it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you saw that it says "Muslims from Gorazde."

10     It doesn't say "soldiers."

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, at that moment --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Overlapping speakers]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when war operations are under

14     way and -- oh, all right.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But you signed it saying "Muslim," not "soldiers."

16     Just answer my question.  You did sign it notwithstanding that it says

17     "Muslims."  You know that.  The typist doesn't know.  You know better.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know.  I didn't know what

19     he knew.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  No.  You've just told us that this is not military

21     terminology, the typist didn't know, but you didn't mean Muslims you

22     meant soldiers, and I'm saying you signed this document referring to

23     Muslims, didn't you?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

Page 28325

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, we are spending already quite a lot of

 3     time on it.  Do you need any further details?

 4             MR. WEBER:  No, I think the meaning of it and the witness's

 5     answers, the Chamber is able to assess it.

 6             The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 06178 into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6916 [Realtime error read in transcript

 9     "6196"].

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

11             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution has no --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  6916.

13             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, are you seeking a clarification of

14     the -- ah, I see you have it now.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  There was an incomplete exhibit number on the record

16     which is now corrected.  And when you said the Prosecution has no, may I

17     understand it that it -- you have no further questions?

18             MR. WEBER:  You're right, Your Honour.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Mr. Lukic, any questions in re-examination?

21             MR. LUKIC:  Just shortly, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens P3083.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, which organ issued this document?

Page 28326

 1        A.   The organ?  SSNO.

 2        Q.   Tell us what that means, SSNO?

 3        A.   Federal National Defence.

 4        Q.   Federal Secretariat?

 5        A.   Federal Secretariat for National Defence of Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   With its seat in?

 7        A.   Belgrade.

 8        Q.   All right.  In your paragraph, you speak of -- that's paragraph 5

 9     of your statement, the one of the 5th of March, which is D779.  You speak

10     of the commander of the RS TO BiH.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   What does this mean?

13        A.   The Republic Staff of Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   In that paragraph you say that after the multi-party elections in

15     1990, especially in 1991, interethnic tensions went up in the TO Staff

16     and the commander of the staff of the TO as a result of the fear and the

17     estimation that the weapons would come into the hands of extremists of

18     any nation, in order to prevent this the commander of the Territorial

19     Defence Staff issued an order to increase the security?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now let us look at document --

22        A.   This -- this here, well, now, who was this sent to?

23        Q.   Do you want us to stay with this document?

24        A.   Yes.  This was not sent to the Republic Staff of Territorial

25     Defence.  It was sent to subordinated units and the republic staff never

Page 28327

 1     received this order from 1990.  And I said that in my statement, and then

 2     this is being invoked.  And look at this:  The 1st Army, 2nd, 3rd, and at

 3     the end you see this.  So this does not pertain to the Republic Staff of

 4     Territorial Defence and that is what I referred to in my statement and --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you please speak more slowly

 6     so that the interpreters can follow you.  But I think they just managed

 7     until now.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So you don't have to repeat.

10             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now let us take a look at the next document.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] So we asked for document P6911.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we do that, Mr. Lukic.

14             Is it true, Witness, that where you suggested that the federal

15     level was separate from the republican level, that in paragraph 1 it

16     reads the Military District, air force, and naval district commands

17     together with the TO Staffs of the socialist republics which links at

18     least this initiative to the TO Staff at the republican level?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The order of subordinate units, and

20     that includes the staff of the Territorial Defence, will be a different

21     order based on this order and that will happen later because in

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina this escalation started later as compared to other

23     republics.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And you said the republic staff, talking about the

25     TO Staff, never received this order.  How do you know?  Where it's

Page 28328

 1     addressed to the Republican Staffs?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  No.  I do apologise if I

 3     said it never arrived.  I don't know whether they did receive it, or

 4     when.  Probably now --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.  If you don't know, then Mr. Lukic may have

 6     more questions for you.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             [Interpretation] So could please have P6911 on our screens.

10        Q.   This document does show, after all, that the Republican Staff of

11     Territorial Defence acted on the basis of the preceding document.  That

12     can be seen from paragraph 1.  However, it was put to you that on that

13     occasion this operation had been completed, or rather that what is in

14     paragraph 2 -- well, it's written here the relocation of the weapons and

15     ammunition of the TO SRBiH was carried out from the 18th of May until the

16     23rd of May 1990 with the exception of the region of Bihac and Banja Luka

17     where it was completed on the 13th June 1990.

18             This is what I'm going to ask you now.  I'm going to ask you

19     about the paragraphs that follow and that read as follows.  Two

20     paragraphs below this one, this is what it says.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] It's the last paragraph on this page

22     in the English version.

23        Q.   "The action applied to the armaments and ammunition of the

24     Territorial Defence and to other actors, only if so desired and

25     explicitly requested.  The action did not cover the armaments and

Page 28329

 1     ammunition of TO war units formed by work organisations."

 2             In 1991, did you actually deal with this as well, inter alia;

 3     that is to say, TO units that were formed by work organisations and their

 4     weaponry?

 5        A.   Yes.  All this fell under the Republican Staff of the TO and that

 6     was only natural, and then the weapons were not properly secured there so

 7     it was only natural that it had to be transferred so that proper security

 8     could be provided.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, in view of the previous answer of the

10     witness that he doesn't know whether these orders were received, et

11     cetera, we should always lay a foundation because the witness now tells

12     us what is natural, whereas we'd like to know not what is natural but

13     what happened and what the basis of the knowledge of the witness for that

14     is.

15             MR. LUKIC:  My question, Your Honour, was --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I'm saying that the answer of the witness raises

17     some concerns about his knowledge and therefore I would like you to be

18     very specific, especially in this context, now, after having listened to

19     the previous answers of the witness, what his source of knowledge is.

20             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Pereula, in 1991, did you personally deal with the relocation

22     of weapons that were intended for the war units of the TO in the work

23     organisations?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the next page of the

Page 28330

 1     B/C/S version and page 3 of the English version.  Paragraph 2 in the

 2     English.

 3        Q.   And then we see here, it's the third paragraph from the bottom.

 4     It states:

 5             "Nonetheless, 64 municipal TO HQs which can deploy 452 war units

 6     and 120 TO headquarters."

 7             And then the last sentence says:

 8             "The storage problem has not been resolved fully."

 9             In 1991 did you deal with these municipal TO Staffs and the

10     placement of the -- or the storage of the weapons?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I would now like to show you the following page in the B/C/S.

13             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] And page 4 of the English.

14        Q.   We can see that proposed measures are being referred to just now.

15     And does this proposal of measures indicate that the process was not

16     complete at the time this document was issued on the 13th of September,

17     1990?

18        A.   Yes, you can see that the process was not complete at the time.

19     And that is precisely why I was included later.  But I was not aware when

20     these decisions were taken or the process of the decision-making.  Once

21     they were made, then I became a part of that process.

22        Q.   In paragraph 2 of item 1, it states:

23             "The commander of the Territorial Defence of the Socialist

24     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina should adopt a special criterion to

25     regulate the quantity of armaments and ammunition to be left with the TO

Page 28331

 1     HQ to protect the TO plants and facilities."

 2             Do you know whether the commander of the TO of the -- at that

 3     time Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was dealing with this issue

 4     after this?

 5        A.   The order was that each staff had a war plan and a facility where

 6     there had to be a guard set up, so weapons were supposed to be left

 7     behind for that personnel.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I hope that you are aware that the

10     witness told us approximately an hour ago that he learned about all that

11     only later and he had no knowledge about it.  Everything happened after

12     the multi-party elections.  So you're now eliciting evidence from him on

13     matters which he earlier said that he didn't know.

14             MR. LUKIC:  He didn't know as of April as he was answered.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  He said -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

16             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness said that this may all have happened,

18     but he learned about matters only later.  So apparently no direct --

19             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] Sorry.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- personal observation on the matter.

21             I'm just pointing it to you so that we -- that you are aware of

22     potential problems in interpreting the evidence, both for the parties

23     and, of course, for the Chamber.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I thought that introducing this witness

Page 28332

 1     to this document with only one paragraph that is contradicting the rest

 2     of the document has to be clarified.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then, as I said before, we have to pay

 4     careful attention to the source of knowledge and the basis of it.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I think that my questions are only about the

 6     knowledge.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Thanks, Your Honour.

 9             I would like -- I kindly ask to have page 5 in B/C/S and page 6

10     in English.  In B/C/S, it's second paragraph; in English, it's the third

11     paragraph on this page.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, were you aware at the time that

13     there was a problem because it was not possible to have complete insight

14     as to the security for the weapons for the DPO.  Could you please tell us

15     what the DPO is?

16        A.   DPO is the socio-political organisation, "Drustveno-Politicka

17     Organizacija."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

19             MR. WEBER:  Well, the question was something different, but I was

20     just concerned about the leading nature of going into that part of that.

21     But I see the question was something different.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, but the whole of the document is in

23     evidence, so even if the witness wouldn't know anything about it, of

24     course you can rely on the document itself.  I mean, that's -- it's the

25     Prosecution who tendered it.  It's now evidence.

Page 28333

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So if you say they've not paid proper attention to

 3     other paragraphs, then of course you can rely on it if you wish to even

 4     if the witness doesn't know anything about it.  The document is in

 5     evidence.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  But I'm testing his knowledge about the events.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I won't dwell for long and I won't raise any other

 9     issues.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pereula, did you know that weapons were

11     obtained for the organs at the level of the republic and that they were

12     relocated and placed in the Hadzici military weapons depot?

13        A.   I -- I didn't hear the question very well.  Could you please

14     repeat your question?

15        Q.   I am waiting for the interpretation into English, so you need to

16     wait a little bit.

17        A.   Oh, I apologise.

18        Q.   At the time were you aware that the weapons obtained for the

19     needs of the organs at the republican level were relocated to the

20     military depot in Hadzici; and, if you are aware, could you please tell

21     us when this was done?

22        A.   I cannot remember.

23        Q.   In your work, i.e., following the multi-party elections, was

24     there still the problem that there were no proper conditions at the level

25     of the republic to safely store these weapons?

Page 28334

 1        A.   Yes, that was a problem, that the security was inadequate for the

 2     weapons of the TO.  But all of this refers to 1991 which is what I am

 3     talking about.  I don't know what was going on in 1990.  This is the

 4     problem.

 5        Q.   I accept your explanation.  We're just going to look at page 10

 6     in the B/C/S and page 12 in the English.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, before we do so, we were at the time

 8     where you would take a break, but if you say it's just a couple of

 9     minutes then we would most likely adjourn for the day and even for the

10     week.  I would be hesitant to restart for seven minutes or ten minutes

11     after the break.  But could you please keep that in mind.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I have two -- two minutes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then two minutes, and Mr. Weber.

14             MR. WEBER:  I do have one document that I would just want to show

15     quickly and seek its admission, so --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's a matter of minutes?

17             MR. WEBER:  A matter of three questions but not necessarily -- it

18     would be five minutes.  Not more.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Well, then I suggest that we'll finish - but

20     I'm also looking at Mr. Mladic - for another ten minutes so that we can

21     adjourn for the day.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Pereula, let's look at paragraph 5, the second paragraph with

Page 28335

 1     a dash in both versions, which states:

 2             "Pending the resolution of all important defence and

 3     protection-related questions, it is proposed in the interim to store the

 4     armaments and ammunition of the socio-political organisations in TO or

 5     JNA depots."

 6             Are you aware that this was the temporary solution to store this

 7     materiel in the TO or JNA depots and that this was happening in 1990 and

 8     1991 in the field, that ammunition and weaponry were being stored in the

 9     TO and the JNA depots?

10        A.   Yes, yes, both in the TO depots which had adequate security, and

11     where there were no proper conditions for this storage in the TO depots

12     these weapons and ammunition were stored in JNA depots.

13        Q.   Mr. Pereula, thank you very much.  These were all our questions.

14     Thank you.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 18371.

18                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

19        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be another document from SRBiH TO

20     commander Bajcetic.  It is an order he issued on the 23rd of October,

21     1990, regarding the gathering and submission of the remaining weaponry to

22     the JNA warehouses.

23             First of all could you read the order and let us know if that is

24     the same or a different order than you are referring to in your

25     statement?

Page 28336

 1        A.   That is not that order.  I'm referring to the order by the town

 2     commander Vukosavljevic, he was the town commander, and before he met

 3     with General Bajcetic.  What I said refers to a different order.

 4        Q.   Sir, I just wanted to show you this quickly and I understand you

 5     claimed a lack of knowledge about a lot of things.  But since Mr. Lukic

 6     raised the issue that was there was remaining steps to be taken, I put it

 7     to you that the republican TO did, in fact, shortly after that

 8     September report, take further steps.  Is it your evidence that you were

 9     not aware of this?

10        A.   Which year?

11        Q.   These further steps as described on the 23rd of October 1990

12     which included, according to part 1, ammunition and MES from the social

13     and public companies, which I believe was just discussed with you with

14     Mr. Lukic?

15        A.   The order was not completely executed until 1991.  It was only in

16     1991 after General Vukosavljevic became the commander and then he issued

17     a separate order to complete the process, and also it was idea that

18     nobody could issue weapons or ammunition from any of the depots without

19     his explicit order.

20        Q.   Okay.  You really haven't answered my question but I'm not going

21     to labour on this.

22             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 18371 into

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6917, Your Honours.

Page 28337

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 2             No further questions, Mr. Weber?

 3             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.  And thank you for the

 4     opportunity.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Pereula, this concludes your testimony in

 6     this court.  I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague, a

 7     very long way, and for having answered the questions, questions put to

 8     you by the party, questions put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a

 9     safe return home again.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When the witness end the courtroom, I briefly raised

13     the matter of 1D1 -- 1D01730, 40 pages.  Any position?

14             Mr. Traldi, it seems you're the one who is involved.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Mr. President, just for clarity of the record, I

16     think it's 1D02733 --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. TRALDI:  -- that I'm being asked about.  Is that correct?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You are right.  You are right.  And I must admit

20     that there is a typo somewhere because in my papers it's -- it gives two

21     times the right one.  But there was a problem about it anyhow, isn't it,

22     so -- but we are talking about 1D02733.

23             MR. TRALDI:  I'm relieved to that hear that, Mr. President, as I

24     was not prepared to address the other document.

25             As -- the Prosecution maintains its position, as I think I

Page 28338

 1     briefly stated Tuesday, that we don't object to the admission of the

 2     document.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That's hereby on the record.  We'll decide on the

 4     matter.  No, there's no objection.  I think we can admit it.  No number

 5     has yet been assigned, I think.

 6             Mr. Registrar, for 1D02733 what number would be assigned?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D781, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D781 is admitted into evidence.

 9             We --

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have one left over, that is the video, the

12     associated exhibits.

13             Mr. Lukic --

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you for Mr. Registrar.  I forgot about it as

15     well.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, he was -- the video.

17             MR. LUKIC:  1D03030.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Having read the transcript meanwhile, the Chamber

19     does not insist on viewing.

20             Any -- there were no objections, Mr. Weber, although there is an

21     understanding that whatever the reporters say is not -- the Defence will

22     not rely on that and purely on - and I've forgotten of the person - but

23     who tell us what happened in this cellar of this cafe.

24             MR. WEBER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Brica.

Page 28339

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Brica.

 2             Under those circumstances and with this understanding,

 3     Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D782, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  D782 is admitted into evidence.

 6             Are there any other matters?  If not, we'll adjourn and we'll

 7     resume Monday, the 16th -- let me just -- no, the 17th of November.

 8     That's Monday morning, 9.30, in this same courtroom, I.

 9                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.09 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

11                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.