141120IT

Page 28607

1 Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

2 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Examination by Mr. Lukic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vracar. For the record, could

5 you please slowly state your name and surname.

6 A. My name is Nikola Vracar.

7 Q. Mr. Vracar, did you give a statement to the Defence team of

8 General Mladic?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 1D1721 on our screens, please.

11 I don't know about the rest of the courtroom, but we do not have

12 this document on our screens. Oh, okay, now we have it.

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vracar, you see the document on the left.

14 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Can you recognise the signature on that document?

16 A. Yes, it's my signature.

17 MR. LUKIC: Can we have the last page of this document, please.

18 Q. [Interpretation] On this last page, do you see a signature and do

19 you recognise it?

20 A. Yes, that's my signature.

21 Q. Does this statement accurately reflect what you said to the

22 Defence team of General Mladic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What you said to us and what is recorded in this statement, is

25 that accurate and truthful?

Page 28608

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Vracar, if I were to put the same questions to you today,

3 would you give me the same answers, in principle?

4 A. Yes.

5 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would tender this statement into

6 evidence.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1721 receives number D789,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

11 MR. LUKIC: There was no associated exhibits since all the

12 exhibits mentioned in the statement are already in the evidence.

13 With your leave, Your Honours, I would just read statement

14 summary of Mr. Vracar and then I would have several questions for him.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do as you suggest.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 As a reserve police officer in Kljuc, Nikola Vracar witnessed the

18 interethnic breakdown, both at the police and the society as a whole.

19 On 27th of May, 1992, Mr. Vracar was wounded when the illegally

20 armed Muslim forces murdered Dusko Stojakovic, the deputy commander of

21 the Kljuc public security station. On that same day, he saw armed Muslim

22 formations at Pudin Han immediately before the ambush and murder of six

23 unarmed young soldiers who were travelling home to Serbia from Knin,

24 having completed their mandatory military service.

25 He knows about the blowing up of the Banja Luka radio and TV

Page 28609

1 signal repeater at the village of Ramici which happened on the same day.

2 That was the beginning of the war in Kljuc. Before the above events, not

3 a single non-Serb in Kljuc was hurt or murdered.

4 He heard about the incident at Velagici as he was still on

5 sick-leave at that time. He has information that proceedings were

6 instituted against the perpetrators.

7 As a member of the police, he took part in the apprehension of

8 individuals who committed criminal offence, which is how the entire

9 police force acted. The police work conditions were aggravated during

10 the night, as there was no power and water in the city. All inhabitants

11 were affected by the lack of fuel, flour, and medications.

12 Nikola Vracar will provide information as to which villages saw

13 no combat actions and why, and testify that the army was mostly outside

14 Kljuc, as the city was not in the zone of combat activities. He claims

15 that the movement of Serb and non-Serb inhabitants out of the area was

16 caused by the fear of war and that it was voluntarily.

17 That was the statement summary, and I would have a few questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 We need D789 on our screens. That is the statement of the

21 witness. We need page 3 in both versions. Actually, paragraph 12.

22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vracar, you see paragraph 12 of your

23 statement before you.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. This is what you said there. You said that you somehow managed

Page 28610

1 to report via radio that you had been attacked and wounded.

2 When was it that you managed that and what kind of equipment did

3 you use?

4 A. After combat, I withdrew into a forest and after about an hour, a

5 bit more than an hour, I went to the village of Ramici and on the road I

6 encountered a police vehicle, and then I said that they should

7 communicate via their own equipment that we had been attacked, that the

8 late Stojakovic was killed, that Kecman and Bajic had been wounded and

9 that I didn't know where they were.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now let us move on to the next page

12 in both versions. We need paragraph 17.

13 Q. In the second sentence here, you say that the Muslim forces chose

14 those days for attacking the Serb forces.

15 When you say "Serb forces," what did you mean?

16 A. The police only. Because there was no army there. The TO units

17 had exercises at Cadjevica, in the area of Manjaca.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. LUKIC: Now we need page 7 and paragraph 35 of the witness's

20 statement.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vracar, in this paragraph, you speak of the

22 killings of Muslims at the school in Velagici. You said that you had

23 only heard about that. You also said what you knew as to who had

24 committed the killing, or killings.

25 Who arrested these Muslim fighters?

Page 28611

1 A. Well, before the arrest, there was a check-point on the road

2 between Velagici and Sanica. On the same day, the 27th of May when we

3 were attacked in Krasulje, that is to say, our patrol, the check-point

4 was attacked as well. Afterwards, the check-point was disbanded and the

5 police carried out arrests of persons that they thought should be

6 arrested.

7 Q. Thank you. Now we need paragraph 36. In that paragraph, you say

8 that everybody was saying that 1941 was being repeated, and you say:

9 "People talked that the same Muslims were attacking the Serbs,

10 just as it had happened at the beginning of World War II in these areas."

11 In order to have a better picture, could you please tell us how

12 many Serbs were killed in Ribnik that you hail from during the

13 Second World War?

14 A. In the Second World War -- well, Ribnik is an ethnically pure

15 village and it had terrible casualties. 1.300 civilians were killed.

16 Many soldiers were killed during the war too but that is not the topic of

17 this conversation. So many people no longer had any male children.

18 Entire families were wiped out. It so happened that up until the 1960s

19 there were certain families that had no military conscripts to send to do

20 their service in the army because there simply were no boys.

21 Q. Thank you. During this war, this last war in Bosnia, from 1992

22 to 1995, did you lose any members of your own family during the

23 breakthrough of the 5th Corps of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

24 Bihac?

25 A. I can say that there were several victims in my family. First,

Page 28612

1 two elderly relatives Dara and Mladjen Vracar, they were 80 years old or

2 even older. They were killed, I don't know how. My aunt was burned

3 alive, and my uncle, her husband, was killed. After the Dayton Accords,

4 we found the mortal remains of my aunt and uncle, and we buried them.

5 Q. Thank you. Let us briefly go back to paragraph --

6 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment at page 6, line 24, the transcript

7 reads, "I don't know." I think I heard, but I stand corrected when I'm

8 wrong, "I don't know how." And usually I'm not dealing with these kind

9 of matters because it will be done overnight but here it could lead to

10 some misunderstanding.

11 Please proceed.

12 Is that what you said, that you didn't know how your two elderly

13 relatives were killed?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know how they were

15 killed.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's just that we have your answer correctly

17 on the transcript.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. The Judge just helped us so that the transcript could be

21 corrected.

22 So, once again, paragraph 35, where the killings in Velagici are

23 mentioned. What was it that you heard? Who were the perpetrators of

24 these killings?

25 A. After the 27th of May, I was undergoing medical treatment and

Page 28613

1 since Kljuc is a small place, people talked and everybody knows

2 everything. People were saying that these were some kind of paramilitary

3 units that had come and committed that crime. I don't know who they

4 were. Later on, there was also talk about them being captured,

5 prosecuted, and so on, but, again, I don't know whether that actually

6 happened.

7 Q. Were there things that people said in relation to the Second

8 World War and these killings?

9 A. Well, yes. Rumour had it that somebody had done this out of

10 revenge because their own families had fallen victim during the

11 Second World War.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vracar. That is all that we had for you at this

13 point in time. Thank you once again.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

15 Before we'll start with the cross-examination by the Prosecution,

16 I'd like to ask two, perhaps three additional questions in relation to

17 your statement.

18 In paragraph 17 of your statement, you say:

19 "It is important to note that during the above combat action by

20 the Muslim army, the TO battalion of the legitimate municipality of

21 Kljuc was not in the town of Kljuc, but ... training on Manjaca ..."

22 Could you tell us what you exactly mean by "legitimate

23 municipality of Kljuc"? Was there a legitimate one and an illegitimate

24 one? And what made one legitimate and the other not legitimate?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Allow me to say that after the

Page 28614

1 multi-party elections there was a political rift in the municipal

2 leadership, and the SDA Assemblymen proclaimed the Muslim municipality of

3 Kljuc. However, according to the constitution that was in force then,

4 the municipality had its Territorial Defence and they sent them out for

5 military training for an exercise in Cadjevica in the Manjaca area. I

6 meant the Territorial Defence that had remained under the legal organs of

7 government. Because these people from the SDA, they declared this

8 independent municipality.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

10 One other question. In paragraph 23, you say:

11 "A decision was made at the level of the municipality of Kljuc

12 that anyone who wished to leave had to surrender his property and get the

13 necessary confirmations."

14 Why did someone wanted to leave, surrender his property?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, property had to be handed

16 over so that it could be recorded and made available to Serb refugees so

17 that there would be no looting of property. At the beginning of the war,

18 during this chaos, there were a lot of looters, bandits, who stole

19 people's property, and that's why all of this was written up. People

20 received certificates to that effect for another reason too. Once they

21 return, after the war, they would be entitled to this property.

22 JUDGE ORIE: When was the decision made?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't remember the exact

24 date but it was sometime in May.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May 1992?

Page 28615

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Was that before the 17th, when you said the -- I

3 think you said it was the 17th that -- was it before the 27th?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I was not employed in

5 the administration, nor was I in any organs of authority or government

6 organs, so I don't know. But I know that this is what was said, that

7 this was the procedure for the people who wanted to move out.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And that applied to all people who would move out,

9 even if only temporarily?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it applied to everyone.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

13 MS. EDGERTON: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's the first time in this case that

15 you're examining a witness. Welcome.

16 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vracar, you'll now cross-examined by

18 Ms. Edgerton. You find her to your right. Ms. Edgerton is counsel for

19 the Prosecution.

20 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vracar.

22 A. Good morning to you too.

23 Q. So you can hear me in a language you understand; right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. To start your cross-examination, I just want to begin

Page 28616

1 by getting you to confirm, you've actually come to this Tribunal before,

2 haven't you? You testified as a Defence witness in the case of

3 Mr. Brdjanin in 2003; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. So I'd like to actually go back to some of the

6 evidence you gave in that case for us to start out. I want to get you to

7 confirm some of the evidence you previously gave.

8 So maybe just to begin, you can confirm, can't you, that -- your

9 previous evidence that you were mobilised in April 1992; right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And, in fact, you can also confirm that you were a reserve

12 policeman even before April 1992; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, in paragraph 6 of your written evidence, you said, "I

15 performed police tasks," to describe your duties. And, in fact, you --

16 your police tasks were that you were a member of the intervention unit

17 for the Kljuc SJB; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And as a member of the intervention unit, you got some

20 specialised training in Manjaca at the training grounds there; right?

21 A. Well, I have to say at this point that this was general infantry

22 training. It wasn't any kind of special training. It was just infantry

23 training, like any other armed unit.

24 Q. All right. So that training included training in the use of

25 mortars; right?

Page 28617

1 A. That depended. I wasn't involved in that, but there were some

2 squads who had training on mortars, but I was just a shooter, an

3 infantryman.

4 Q. Well, now, here I'd actually like to just show you what you told

5 the Trial Chamber in the Brdjanin case, and maybe that's going to help

6 you refresh your memory, so to speak.

7 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look, please, at 65 ter number

8 31602. And it's going to be in English, unfortunately, but I'll read it

9 to you. 31602; e-court page 33.

10 Q. So, here is a transcript of -- actually, if we could go over and

11 start at 32, please. It's -- it's the transcript of your testimony in

12 the Brdjanin case. And at the very bottom of the page, my former

13 colleague, Mrs. Korner, asks you:

14 "And the training that you received in Manjaca was training in

15 the," and then if we could go to the second page, "in the uses of

16 mortars. That's right isn't it?"

17 And you said, "Yes it is."

18 And then -- I'll just go on.

19 She asked, "Zoljas?"

20 And you replied, "Yes."

21 She asked, "Heavy machine-guns?"

22 And you confirmed, "Yes."

23 And then she asked, "Hand-to hand combat?"

24 And you confirmed, "Yes." And also added that you excelled at

25 that because you're a karate expert. That -- that evidence is correct,

Page 28618

1 isn't it?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Thank you. Now this training that you received was conducted not

4 only by instructors from the police centre in Banja Luka but you also had

5 instructors from the army; right?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Now, as a member of the intervention unit, your direct supervisor

8 was Vinko Kondic; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And he was the SJB commander, the chief of police, for Kljuc

11 municipality; right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, in terms of the hierarchy within the police, it's correct,

14 isn't it, that the public security station in Kljuc was exclusively

15 linked to the Banja Luka CSB; correct?

16 A. The CSB in Prijedor. Because the police was organised that way.

17 There were two centres: Prijedor and Banja Luka.

18 Q. Now, I'm a little puzzled by that and I'll show you why. If we

19 could have a look at D358, please. It's a document that was prepared and

20 signed by your boss, Vinko Kondic. And it's information on the

21 activities of the Kljuc SJB from July 1992.

22 You see the first page of it there. And if we could go in the

23 English translation to the first paragraph under section 3, and in your

24 language to page 5, that would be great.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the page number for the English version?

Page 28619

1 MS. EDGERTON: English version, page 3, paragraph -- first

2 section under paragraph 3.

3 Q. Now, here's your boss saying in the second sentence under

4 section III:

5 "After the MUP in the former BH fell apart completely, the SJB's

6 work was exclusively linked to the Banja Luka security service centre

7 from the start. The SJB kept the competent organs of the Serbian

8 municipality of Kljuc informed about its work on a regular basis."

9 So you're not saying your boss got it wrong, are you?

10 A. Well, listen, for -- on several occasions they reorganised

11 things, so this is probably correct, because he can't say things that are

12 not consistent. But up there it says the centre of security services.

13 In other words, all these centres were under the chapeau Banja Luka.

14 That was the police. Now, what transpired during these various

15 reorganisations, I don't know.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to go to another document before we

17 sort of leave the area of the police and its operations.

18 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look, please, at 65 ter 31605.

19 Q. It's a document you were shown during your Brdjanin testimony.

20 Otherwise possibly duplicated at 15055. Pardon me.

21 MS. EDGERTON: No, wrong document. Could we have 15055, please.

22 Oh, and, Your Honour, I apologise, my first time back in some

23 time, I may have transposed the odd number and I will do my utmost to be

24 careful about this. It was -- I have a bit of a reputation that way, and

25 I always endeavour to have somebody else check my numbers.

Page 28620

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, for the first day, we're very lenient,

2 Ms. Edgerton.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Understood. And thank you.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 65 ter 15055 is not in

5 e-court.

6 MS. EDGERTON: That's okay then. Thank you. We'll be able to

7 move on.

8 Q. I actually want to go to the day of the 27th of May that my

9 colleague Mr. Lukic discussed with you, and according to your evidence at

10 paragraph 8, it looks like there were only eight people on the scene.

11 And if you want to, I have a look -- I've got your statement here and you

12 can have a look at paragraph 8. But, actually, the police vehicle that

13 was on the scene with you, that you spoke about in your statement, didn't

14 hold only the four people that you named. It was a kombi van that was

15 containing seven or eight other people; right?

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we D789 on the screen?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were two vehicles: There was

18 a van and a Golf vehicle. There were four of us in the Golf and as for

19 the van, there were eight people. However, there were actually nine

20 people. That's what I learned later on. I thought there were eight of

21 them but that's not correct. There were nine of them. So in total,

22 there were 13 men in the patrol.

23 MS. EDGERTON:

24 Q. Now my colleague Mr. Lukic said that Mr. Stojanovic [sic] was

25 murdered. He was actually killed as a result of the gun battle in the

Page 28621

1 ambush; correct?

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Ms. Edgerton is it "Stojanovic" or "Stojakovic"?

3 JUDGE ORIE: I heard you say indeed say "Stojanovic," but the

4 transcript reads "Stojakovic," which makes me feel better at ease, yes.

5 Mr. Stojanovic is still there.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you for that correction, Your Honours.

7 Q. So Mr. Stojakovic was killed in the gun battle that followed the

8 ambush; right?

9 A. Well, listen, I have to explain this. He was killed because we

10 ran into an ambush and we didn't get out of the car. Now -- we got out

11 of the vehicle but because he was a heavy-set man, he had difficulty. He

12 was slow in getting out. So as he was trying to get out, he was mowed

13 down by machine-gun fire. He wasn't killed in fighting. He was killed

14 without any combat. He wasn't in combat. Do you understand? It's one

15 thing when a person is killed in combat and another when they're just

16 murdered. You understand?

17 Q. I understand. Thank you. Now, in fact, in fact, you were all

18 armed, and you said that in your statement; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And to be more specific, you all had pistols and you all had

21 automatic rifles; right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also had grenades; correct?

24 A. Yes, some of us.

25 Q. Now, your evidence in the Brdjanin case was not that nobody fired

Page 28622

1 back. Your evidence in the Brdjanin case as to how things transpired was

2 exactly the opposite. You got out of the car. He was killed because he

3 couldn't move fast enough. But you all fired back; right? It's quite

4 simple.

5 A. That's correct. That's correct. That's when the fighting began.

6 They opened fire on us, and then we had to defend ourselves.

7 Q. Now, the wound - because that's how you described the injury you

8 received that day - it would kind of -- just left like it was -- make us

9 think that you were also shot but, in fact, your evidence in the Brdjanin

10 case was that you jumped down a slope just below the road and you hit a

11 rock there and you dislocated your shoulder; right?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And that injury actually didn't prevent you from at one point

14 throwing one of those grenades that you were armed with; correct?

15 A. I'm sorry, madam, but I threw those grenades before and then as I

16 was moving backwards, I fell from a rock and my shoulder was dislocated

17 totally, my right shoulder. You can't really fling grenades if your arm

18 is totally dislocated.

19 Q. Now, this --

20 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go to paragraph 12. Oh, we have it on

21 the screen, thank you.

22 Q. This emergency vehicle that came along and helped you, there was

23 a doctor in the vehicle, right, Emir Kapetanovic?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And your boss also came along, Mr. Kondic; right?

Page 28623

1 A. Yes. He and Omer Filipovic.

2 Q. And Emir Kapetanovic is a Muslim; right?

3 A. Yes. There's nothing questionable there.

4 Q. And he was arrested by the police and later taken to Manjaca.

5 You know that, don't you?

6 A. I don't know about that.

7 Q. Fine. Now, just if we could go over to paragraph 15 in both

8 languages, your statement. That story you recount in paragraph 15 about

9 the attack on the military bus is something you didn't personally see at

10 all; right?

11 A. No, no, I didn't see it. But while I was in hospital --

12 Q. No, no, no.

13 A. -- three dead soldiers and some wounded were brought in.

14 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Vracar --

15 A. I apologise. I apologise.

16 Q. It's -- I know you're here to tell your experiences and

17 observations, but my question called for a pretty simple answer. Thank

18 you.

19 And the information that you give us in paragraph 16, about the

20 attack on the repeater, that's also something that you didn't personally

21 see at all; correct?

22 A. That's correct, I didn't see it.

23 Q. Now, for a dislocated shoulder, you went back to work a whole

24 month later, on 28 June, 1992; right? Vidovdan?

25 A. Yes.

Page 28624

1 Q. You were a duty officer in the op's room. That's your evidence?

2 A. Junior duty officer or assistant duty officer, if you like.

3 Q. And that was at -- in the op's room at the Kljuc police station;

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, with Your Honours' leave I just want to change topics and

7 move on, thank you, to another area.

8 Now I just want to talk, Mr. Vracar, about the killings in

9 Velagici that you've spoken of in paragraph 35 of your evidence.

10 Now, just to be perfectly clear, the information you have is only

11 rumours, the talk of the town; right?

12 A. That was what people were saying. Kljuc is a small town, and

13 people were talking about this. It was a horrible incident for a place

14 that small, so people talk.

15 Q. And the horrible incident that we're talking about is the killing

16 of at least 77 men who were detained in the school house in Velagici;

17 right?

18 A. I don't know how many people there were there. Somebody should

19 know. And that is who should be prosecuted, the perpetrator, and they

20 must know about this. Now, all I know is what people said about it,

21 citizens.

22 Q. Well, you agree it happened, don't you?

23 A. Well, yes. That happened. Everyone knows that.

24 Q. Well -- but -- but you -- I suppose you don't know that the

25 perpetrators, the people you say everyone was describing as

Page 28625

1 paramilitaries, actually identified themselves in a letter to

2 General Talic, the 1 KK commander, just two days after the killing. And

3 in that letter, they all confirmed that they were members of the

4 Bosnian Serb army. You didn't know that, did you?

5 A. No, this is the first time that I hear that. I was on medical

6 leave.

7 MS. EDGERTON: And, for the record, that's P3528, pages 38 to 40,

8 in English.

9 Q. Now, I'd just like to ... go on to the other incident that you

10 spoke about in your evidence, and that's the killings at Biljani and you

11 talked about that in paragraph 37 of your statement. It's on the screen

12 in front of us in English. If we could go over it that paragraph in

13 B/C/S.

14 And, there, you say:

15 "I didn't know anything about the killings at Biljani during the

16 war. I found about the incident afterwards, when I testified in the

17 Brdjanin case."

18 So, now, here again, we're talking about the killing of at least

19 144 males who had been detained in the school house in Biljani; right?

20 A. Well, I don't know where they were detained, believe me. They

21 were detained somewhere, but where exactly, I don't know. This town is

22 about 16 kilometres north-west of Kljuc. And I was in a totally

23 different area. I was being treated.

24 Q. Well, you're not disagreeing that it -- you're not saying that it

25 didn't happen, are you? You agree that this happened.

Page 28626

1 A. Well, yes, it happened. Of course it happened.

2 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look, please, at document P2064.

3 Q. And that's an Official Note from the SJB in Kljuc relating to the

4 mopping up action in Sanica on the 10th of July, 1992. It's a document,

5 Mr. Vracar, relating to this incident. And you were actually shown this

6 document during your testimony in the Brdjanin case as well. And if you

7 could go down to about halfway through that large paragraph, you see that

8 the commander of the Sanica station says:

9 "It was planned to put the military prisoners in the area school

10 in Biljani. For these requirements, I received help from the section for

11 intervention of the mobile unit of the Kljuc SJB."

12 That's precisely your unit; right?

13 A. That was the units I was a member of.

14 Q. So who went? Who went, Mr. Vracar?

15 A. Believe me, I don't know. Somebody must have put together a list

16 of people who were supposed to go there, probably the commander.

17 Q. Well, that's -- that's a bit surprising, Mr. Vracar, because your

18 previous evidence in the Brdjanin case was that you were at work the very

19 next day after this incident and you heard about it almost immediately.

20 And you're telling us now you don't know who, from your unit, went on

21 scene?

22 A. Well, the police station had about 300 to 400 men at the time, to

23 be honest with you. I didn't know what the schedules were. The police

24 commander would actually sign off on a shift list, and whom he sent, I

25 don't know.

Page 28627

1 Q. Mr. Vracar, the intervention unit was a small unit of specialised

2 officers. You were a member, and you were at work the very day after the

3 incident as an assistant duty officer. And your evidence today is that

4 you didn't know -- you don't know who went?

5 A. Well, believe me, there were a lot of police there. In Sanica

6 there was a squad of police, a police squad, I don't know how many men.

7 I also don't know how many men from Kljuc went there, or who. Believe

8 me.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could I just intervene for one second.

10 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It was put to you that you testified in the Brdjanin

12 case that you learned about the incident, apart from details and who went

13 there, the day after it happened. Is that still your testimony?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I knew about it on the same

15 day. I mean, the second or third day after it. There were men there.

16 There was fighting and so on. I don't know anything more than that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But that a lot of people were killed?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That those were people that had been detained at

20 that point in time?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if they were detained.

22 So somebody brought them there, detained them. What they did, I really

23 don't know.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you learned about a larger number of

25 people being killed at Biljani?

Page 28628

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I learned.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, your statement, to which you attested this

3 morning, says:

4 "I found out about this incident afterwards when I testified in

5 the Brdjanin case ..."

6 What you're telling us now contradicts what is in your statement

7 and is in line apparently with what you testified in the Brdjanin case.

8 Any comment to that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what, Mr. President?

10 I testified 13 years ago. Human memory is not all that certain. People

11 forget. I cannot remember all the details of things that happened

12 13 years ago or 20 or 22 years ago. I do apologise.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We're not talking about details. We're talking

14 about when you learned for the first time about the incident in Biljani.

15 That's not a detail.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a day or two after that

17 happened, a day or two later. I don't know whether it was the first or

18 the second day after that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Why do we not find that in your statement? Why is

20 it now, where apparently your memory serves you sufficiently to remember

21 what you remembered at the time you gave to Brdjanin testimony, what

22 makes it that you -- that we do not find that information in your

23 statement?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us when you signed that statement?

Page 28629

1 It was quite a while after you had been interviewed, isn't it?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A long time ago.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You mean you signed it a long time ago?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I gave the statement -- you

5 mean the Brdjanin case? Or this last one?

6 JUDGE ORIE: This last one I'm talking about.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was in January last year

8 and in July this year. January, July.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, were you interviewed twice in -- before July,

10 or were you interviewed once before July?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twice, twice. I think once in

12 January and once in July.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You were not interviewed a year before on the

14 23rd of January, 2013? That would be close to two years ago.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps -- when were you, for the first time,

17 interviewed by the Mladic Defence?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] January.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of this year, that is, approximately a year ago?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now was it this year or last year?

21 I'm not sure.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You were --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2013 or 2014, not sure. But it was

24 January.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You were not interviewed in January 2013 and in

Page 28630

1 January 2014 with a year interval?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No. Just one January, one

3 July. The year I do not remember.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Was that in January? Were you interviewed for one

5 day or for -- on several days?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day. Mr. Lukic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one day. Now, you signed your statement in

8 July. Were you interviewed again in July, or did you just come to sign

9 your statement?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just signed the statement.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And where did you do that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Banja Luka.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you not, at that time, carefully read the

14 statement so that you would find out that there is apparently a mistake

15 in when you learned about the Biljani incident?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, I didn't pay attention

17 to such details. I thought that everything was okay.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that you did not carefully and

19 thoroughly read through your statement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I read the statement, but I

21 didn't pay attention to that detail. One sentence, when I did this or

22 that. It's a detail, after all.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You consider it still not to be very important?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, possibly it's an oversight on

25 my part.

Page 28631

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton -- well, I say please

2 proceed, but we'd rather take the break first.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Fluegge would have one question for you.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You were member of an intervention unit. How

6 many people were members of this intervention unit?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me. The unit consisted of

8 three platoons; that's to say, about a hundred men.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And your platoon, how many people?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thirty, approximately.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before the break, I have one additional question.

13 Were all these three platoons men from Kljuc or was it just your

14 platoon or -- could you tell us how many Kljuc members there were in this

15 intervention unit?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the people were from our

17 municipality, the municipality of Kljuc. That is to say, all members of

18 the reserve police, or, rather, the milicija, came from the municipality

19 of Kljuc.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That means all hundred in your --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately three platoons of 100

22 men, yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We take a break. We take a break of 20

24 minutes. You may follow the usher.

25 [The witness stands down]

Page 28632

1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll resume at 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Meanwhile, I use the time for the following:

6 Perhaps I should address you, Mr. Tieger.

7 The Defence has filed a motion yesterday for an extension of time

8 for the deadline to respond to the Prosecution's 45th 92 bis motion. The

9 Defence seeks 30 days extra. Has the Prosecution already taken a

10 position on that? I think when you asked for the re-opening of your case

11 that you said that you would have a reasonable request for further time.

12 Would -- would not find any opposition.

13 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, at this point, I see no reason why we

14 wouldn't abide by our customary approach and not oppose, but if you'll

15 give me until the end of this session to confirm that there's nothing

16 special about the circumstance that warrants a change, I will confirm

17 that position.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we hear from you later today.

19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, from body language, I understood that

21 the missing document in e-court had been uploaded meanwhile.

22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you.

23 [The witness takes the stand]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.

25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

Page 28633

1 Q. Mr. Vracar, I would just like to stay on the subject of the

2 massacres at Biljani for a few moments.

3 MS. EDGERTON: Now, Mr. Vracar, in your Brdjanin testimony -- and

4 we could pull it up on the screen for the gentleman. It's 65 ter 31602.

5 And I think probably e-court page 49, if I'm not mistaken. Your

6 indulgence for just a moment.

7 If you could scroll down the page. I omitted to write the

8 e-court page number. And go to the next page, please, page 50. Thank

9 you.

10 Q. In fact, Mr. Vracar, what your testimony was in the Brdjanin case

11 is on the screen here in front of you. I'm going to read it to you and

12 I'd like you to confirm it.

13 You were asked by my former colleague, Mrs. Korner:

14 "You heard, didn't you, almost immediately that there had been a

15 massacre of some 60-odd Muslims by members of the military and the

16 police?"

17 And your response was:

18 "Yes, I heard about that, but I don't know how many people fell

19 casualty."

20 Can you confirm that evidence?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. EDGERTON: If we could just now go back to the document we

24 had on the screen just before this P520.

25 Oh, sorry, a new document, P520. It's an order for further

Page 28634

1 operations in respect of this same incident from Dragan Samardzija and

2 it's dated 9 July, 1992. And if we could just have a look at 2d in both

3 languages.

4 Q. Mr. Vracar, it says here, that:

5 "The Sanica police platoon is to move along the

6 Sanica-Jabukovac-Donji Biljani route and establish a check-point in the

7 sector of the Donji Biljani school for processing suspicious persons.

8 Extreme cases should be sent to the Kljuc SJB for further processing."

9 Now, Mr. Vracar, what you said you were actually doing on the day

10 after this incident in the Brdjanin case is that you were doing guard

11 duty in front of the police station that day. Do you remember that

12 evidence?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And not only were you doing guard duty in front of the police

15 station, you remembered that prisoners were brought there for

16 questioning; right?

17 A. Some people were brought in, but I don't know where from. Do you

18 understand that? Because the territory of the municipality is quite

19 large in geographical terms.

20 Q. So on the 11th of July, you were on guard duty in front of the

21 police station, you saw prisoners brought there for questioning, and your

22 evidence in the Brdjanin case was that you also heard those prisoners

23 being beaten; right? You can confirm that?

24 A. You know what? There was one guard in the station, inside, and I

25 was outside. I didn't know all of the insignia and so on. But later on,

Page 28635

1 I found out in the Adamovic case - was that the name? - Mr. Dzafic's

2 statement, so the guards in front -- I mean, I as a guard in front could

3 not know at all what was going on inside.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... no one asked

5 you. The simple question was: Whether, like in the Brdjanin case,

6 whether it's your testimony today that you heard those prisoners being

7 beaten.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know what? There were

9 beatings. That's true.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You heard that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What did you hear? Did you hear the blows, or did

13 you hear the persons, when beaten, perhaps using their voice, screaming,

14 whatever. What did you hear?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I heard that some people

16 moaning but you see what I mean?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

18 That is an answer to the question. All the rest you said does go

19 around the question rather than respond to it.

20 Please proceed.

21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

22 Q. In fact, Mr. Vracar, the people, what you heard in the police

23 station on the 11th of July were the people who were brought from Biljani

24 on the bus, according to the order by Mr. Samardzija. You heard those

25 people being beaten as they were questioned at the station, didn't you?

Page 28636

1 A. You see, I was outside standing guard, and I could not hear and

2 see everything. Actually, I didn't see anything, but I heard what I

3 heard as I said to the Presiding Judge a moment ago.

4 Q. All right. Thank you. I just want go back to one area related

5 to the 27th of May.

6 Now, you made the point a couple of times that you were on

7 medical leave after the 27th of May. You were on medical leave at the

8 time of the Velagici massacre. Do you remember that? You just said that

9 earlier today.

10 A. I assumed my duties on the 1st of July.

11 Q. So when you talked at paragraph 17 about the whereabouts of the

12 Serb TO on the 27th of May, and you talked about that at temporary

13 transcript page 9 today, you were simply on medical leave. You had no

14 personal experience of their whereabouts; right?

15 A. Well, I wasn't with that unit, but I know that it was out there

16 for exercises because I was not a member of the TO. A TO unit was sent

17 to the area of Cadjevica for military exercises, training, because some

18 of my relatives and neighbourings went there.

19 Q. So is it your evidence that all the Serb military forces in Kljuc

20 on that day were not in the municipality. They were sent for training at

21 Manjaca?

22 A. I'm sorry, what day?

23 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps we could have a look at the witness's

24 statement, D789, one more time, paragraph 17.

25 Q. So here you said talking about incidents on the 27th of May, as

Page 28637

1 you did in the previous paragraphs, by the way, not accepting for a

2 moment that you have the date right in paragraph 16, but here you said in

3 paragraph 17 that during those combat actions by the -- as you describe

4 it the Muslim army, the TO battalion of the legitimate municipality of

5 Kljuc was not in the town but they were in Manjaca.

6 So I want to know what are you saying? Are you saying there were

7 no Serb military forces in and around Kljuc that day?

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you saying military forces or police forces?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No there weren't any.

10 MS. EDGERTON: My question relates to military forces,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There weren't any military men

14 there but the police were there of course.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Let's have a look at another document. It's 65

16 ter number 03117. And it dates from 2 November 1993. It's a supplement

17 to monograph of the 1st Krajina Corps, and it talks about the Kljuc

18 Battalion. All right. We could go over to page 3 in both languages.

19 Q. And I want you to have a look at the -- towards the bottom of

20 page 3 in your language, Mr. Vracar, and it's the third full

21 paragraph after the list of names. And in English, of course, the same.

22 And, Mr. Vracar, that says that when the armed conflict in Kljuc

23 began, the entire battalion, and it refers to the Kljuc Battalion was

24 relocated outside Kljuc from where it was deployed to mop up the town and

25 the surrounding settlements and the decision to assign this task to the

Page 28638

1 battalion was issued on May 27th. And units were deployed to the village

2 of Reizovici, Hadzici, and Pudin Han. And anti-tank platoon attacked

3 from their positions in Brezcice. And then it goes down further and

4 says:

5 "The task of the companies was to disarm all the paramilitary

6 formations in the direction of the attacks and to arrest members of these

7 formations."

8 And it continues on in English, but in your language we would

9 have to go to the following page, I think, where it says:

10 "The following day, the Kljuc battalion was deployed to carry out

11 the same task in the area of the village of Pudin Han, Vukovo Selo,

12 Humici, Plemence, Vrhovo, and Peci."

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should slow down by reading from a document,

14 especially names of places.

15 MS. EDGERTON: I apologise, Your Honours.

16 Q. And it indicates that a mopping-up operation in two more

17 villages, Kamicak and Vrhpolje ensued. Those are all mixed or

18 predominantly Muslim areas I've just named, aren't they?

19 A. What is it that you wish to ask me?

20 Q. My question was, first, that those locations I've just named are

21 all mixed or predominantly Muslim areas, aren't they?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. And this directly contradicts the evidence that you've just given

24 that there was no military in Kljuc that day. The military was there,

25 they had a task, and the task was to go and mop up non-Serb areas.

Page 28639

1 That's what the document says; right?

2 MR. LUKIC: We would object as [Overlapping speakers] ...

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... I'm

4 sorry, I --

5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second.

6 MR. LUKIC: We can read the document. And if it's all that my

7 colleague wants this witness to confirm --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No --

9 MR. LUKIC: -- we see the point.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The question is whether the witness agrees that the

11 document contradicts his evidence. That's the question.

12 Could you please answer the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is written in the document that

14 the decision was made on the 27th of May to mop up the terrain. That is

15 to say after what had happened in Krasulje. It is only then that the

16 TO Staff decided on the mop-up operation. Do read this again. Only a

17 decision was made and the mop-up occurred later on, on the 30th, the

18 31st of May. There is a difference of three to four days.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, next question, please.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. Nothing further about

21 this document. And I'd like to have this document marked as a

22 Prosecution exhibit, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

24 MR. LUKIC: Only if we can know what's the date of this document.

25 Does the Prosecution have any idea when it was created?

Page 28640

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think Ms. Edgerton mentioned it's from -- no,

2 perhaps I'm ... let's have a look. Ms. Edgerton, could you tell us --

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we go to the first page.

4 MS. EDGERTON: You're correct, Your Honours. I did mention it

5 and the date appears on the top left-hand corner of both versions,

6 2 November, 1993.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was my recollection that Ms. Edgerton --

8 MR. LUKIC: Is that handwritten date or there is anything

9 official?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton --

11 MR. LUKIC: Because in English version -- yeah, it says

12 handwritten.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It says handwritten. The document in the date is in

14 handwriting.

15 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any idea who wrote that on the document?

17 MS. EDGERTON: No. I have no personal idea who wrote it on the

18 document. But reading the document which reports, for example, on the

19 very last page on events at the end of August and September 1993, one is

20 certainly --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --

22 MS. EDGERTON: One recognises that the date is likely to be an

23 accurate one.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, accurate or not, but at least it most likely

25 is not any earlier than the last date mentioned in the document and the

Page 28641

1 2nd of November is later.

2 Does this sufficiently clarify the questions you have? I think

3 the parties would agree that on the basis of the content of the document,

4 it was created considerably after the events described in 1992 because it

5 also describes events in -- if you would agree, in August 1993.

6 MR. LUKIC: We can agree on that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then Madam Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3117 receives number P6932,

9 Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

12 Q. Now, Mr. Vracar, you also said in your statement, and I want to

13 go back to that for a bit, in paragraph 4 that the victory of the SDS in

14 Kljuc during the multi-party elections was followed by a split in the

15 police force because Muslim police officers were refusing to wear Serb

16 insignia.

17 Now, you mean the multi-party elections in November 1990; right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the refusal to wear Serb insignia that you referred to didn't

20 happen until the MUP split in Kljuc on the 7th of May, 1992; right?

21 A. Yes, it was then that the Muslims left the service because they

22 didn't want to express their loyalty to the newly elected authorities, so

23 most of them went on leave which was then followed by these incidents and

24 the war broke out, and so on and so forth.

25 Q. But, sorry, when you talk about the newly elected authorities,

Page 28642

1 you're talking about the authorities that were elected in November 1990,

2 and in Kljuc, while the SDS won the elections, what was elected in

3 November 1990 was a coalition. Isn't that the case?

4 A. Now, look, I didn't participate in those political games. I

5 don't know who was in coalition with whom and probably they parted their

6 ways at the end. Now why that was, that's a question for the politicians

7 and their disagreement led to everything, on the entire territory and

8 wider.

9 Q. Well --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'm a little bit puzzled by your

11 question that was a coalition elected where the SDS had won the elections

12 or did the SDS win the election and was then a coalition formed after

13 that.

14 MS. EDGERTON: In an effort to speak efficiently, perhaps if I've

15 caused confusion, Your Honour, but, in fact, the SDS won the elections

16 but according to the decisions on the distribution of power. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see your point, but I was a bit confused by

18 your question.

19 Please proceed.

20 MS. EDGERTON: Apologies.

21 Q. So what -- Mr. Vracar, you talked about political gains but

22 you've given evidence about the inter -- what Mr. Lukic described as the

23 interethnic breakdown in society. You've given evidence about an

24 increase in interethnic tensions in Kljuc. Now, in fact, that happened

25 over the course of that whole year and a half you skipped over in your

Page 28643

1 statement, didn't it?

2 A. Madam, that's not a year and a half. This conflict had been

3 going on for centuries. You understand? You cannot accomplish the two

4 ethnicities or three, get on those quarrelling terms in a year and a

5 half. No. This happened over centuries, you understand? The first

6 great wear, the second great war, and then the last war. This is --

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

8 A. -- inherited. This is something inherited from history.

9 Q. My question isn't about history. My question is about the year

10 and a half that preceded the split of the MUP. And I'll ask the question

11 in a different way. Since you actually do seem to be following -- have

12 been following politics, you would know that the Autonomous Region of the

13 Krajina was proclaimed in September 1991. You must know that?

14 A. Yes, I do know it.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Previous translation continues] ... too late but

16 witness was talking about the history not about politics and the claim

17 that since this witness was following politics and the question arose

18 from that, but he exclusively said that did he not.

19 JUDGE ORIE: No, this is comment rather than any objection.

20 Let's leave it to that. The comment is on the record.

21 Please proceed.

22 MS. EDGERTON:

23 Q. So are you saying that the proclamation of the Autonomous Region

24 of the Krajina didn't increase interethnic tensions in Kljuc

25 municipality?

Page 28644

1 A. Well, of course it increased the interethnic tension among the

2 non-Serb people.

3 Q. And you would be --

4 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, let's look at a document. Could we see

5 65 ter 06877, please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I also seek clarification.

7 Witness, you said:

8 "Well, of course it increased the interethnic tension among the

9 non-Serb people."

10 Would you say interethnic tension between those who were not

11 Serbs, that would mean Croats and Muslims, or was it interethnic tension

12 between Serbs and non-Serbs?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there was tension

14 between Serbs and those who are non-Serbian; in other words, Muslims and

15 Catholics. And this proceeded -- this incident was proceeded by a

16 referendum in March -- all right.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to fully understand what you said,

18 interethnic tension among non-Serbs. No, it was interethnic tension

19 between Serbs and non-Serbs.

20 Please proceed.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

22 MS. EDGERTON:

23 Q. So here in front of you is a document dating 29 October, 1991,

24 and that's when Mr. Brdjanin, whose trial you appeared at, circulated an

25 order from the Sarajevo SDS which had been circulated or presented at a

Page 28645

1 meeting between Dr. Karadzic and all the mayors, and accepted by the ARK

2 presidency. And this document -- have a look at point number 1. This

3 document that Mr. Brdjanin circulates says to the municipality

4 authorities: Establish commands, set up duty round the clock. And then

5 at point number 2 it says: Mobilise the TO. And at point number 3 it

6 says: Form field units. And then if you go down to number 5 it says:

7 Take over power -- take over management, pardon me, in public enterprises

8 by all means.

9 So are you saying that this didn't contribute to interethnic

10 tensions in Kljuc?

11 MR. LUKIC: Objection.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.

13 MR. LUKIC: I think the document should be read properly. Point

14 2 was not read. It says, "Establish full mobility ...," and it was

15 presented it was mobilisation. So I don't think that's said.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it is ...

17 MR. LUKIC: Mobilise the TO.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apparently you say the way in which it was

19 read does not reflect the actual text of the document.

20 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could you please -- of course, the

22 Chamber could not prepare for this. But you see that there seems to be

23 an issue about mobility or mobilisation. Could we -- and is it a

24 translation issue, Mr. Lukic, or is it --

25 MR. LUKIC: No, it's not in the --

Page 28646

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Ms. Edgerton, now you know what problem

2 Mr. Lukic had. You relieve him from those problems and you put the

3 question again to the witness and you refer to the document in such a way

4 that even Mr. Lukic would not have any problems with it any further.

5 MS. EDGERTON:

6 Q. What I'll do is I'll read, again, the first five passages of the

7 document, and I'd like to have you, Mr. Vracar, read aloud for us point

8 number 2 when we get to it.

9 In this instruction, Mr. Brdjanin says the following, point 1:

10 "Immediately form a command of the town and set up

11 round-the-clock duty."

12 Could you now read point 2 for us, please.

13 A. It says:

14 "Establish full mobility of the Territorial Defence."

15 In other words, the full mobility of the Territorial Defence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You're not -- you're just invited to read not to

17 further explain.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. EDGERTON:

20 Q. Point number 3:

21 "Form units for the front and designate their replacements?

22 Number 4 reads:

23 "All men under the age of 40 to be reassigned from civilian

24 protection to the Territorial Defence, and the Territorial Defence to be

25 resubordinated to the corps as war-time units."

Page 28647

1 And, finally, number 5:

2 "Take over management in public enterprises, the post office, the

3 SDK, the bank," and so forth.

4 Now, I'll ask the same question. Are you saying that this didn't

5 contribute to interethnic tension in Kljuc municipality?

6 A. Well, I don't know how to answer your question. This is a

7 political document. I cannot analyse or figure out what kind of

8 ramifications did -- this had and -- among the people.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, what Ms. Edgerton apparently is seeking is

10 the following: In your statement, you give a picture in which, after the

11 1990 elections, suddenly a problem arises caused by the Muslims in early

12 1992; whereas, Ms. Edgerton puts to you certain documents which shed a

13 different light on what happened and, that is, that there was a

14 development in which documents like the one shown to you may have

15 contributed to interethnic tensions which came not or certainly not

16 exclusively from the non-Serb side.

17 Ms. Edgerton, is that what you want to put to the witness?

18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please comment on that rather than to tell

20 us that this is a political document. It is. Could you explain why you

21 gave a different picture compared to what is now shown to you on the

22 basis of documents?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document for sure contributed

24 to interethnic tensions. That's correct. It did contribute to the

25 tension among all the ethnic groups.

Page 28648

1 JUDGE ORIE: So is that to say that your picture at least is

2 incomplete about what caused tensions at that point in time?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained a moment ago that I

4 wasn't involved in politics. I only know fragments about certain

5 thing -- of certain things. As for this topic, I'm no expert, really.

6 It was just the things that I could hear or see as your regular citizen

7 because politics is something that's really miraculous, in a way. And

8 I'm not involved in politics. I wasn't then and I'm not to this -- and I

9 am not today, and giving any assessment on my part would be, well, not

10 serious enough.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No. So you say you have only fragmented

12 information. Do you have any explanation as to why the fragments you

13 were familiar with are mainly favourable to the Serb side and unfavorable

14 to the non-Serb side?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know how it is. You

16 receive all kinds of information through the news. We received

17 information via the media, TV, and so on. Now, on the basis of that

18 information, well, my position is what it is. Some people like one

19 thing, other people like another thing. It's a question of choice, you

20 know.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This Chamber is not interested in what kind of

22 information you like but about the facts that occurred.

23 Ms. Edgerton.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have that document as a Prosecution

25 exhibit and then I'll change topics. Thank you.

Page 28649

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 6877 receives number P6933,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

5 MS. EDGERTON:

6 Q. Now, you said at paragraph 27 of your statement that the moving

7 out of the civilians was not a policy of the RS or the VRS. So can I

8 understand that, or can we understand that to mean that you're trying to

9 say that the moving out of the non-Serb civilians from Kljuc was not a

10 government or a military policy? Is that what you're saying?

11 A. That was not a municipal policy or the government policy, to

12 expel people by force.

13 Q. So you're saying that forcible expulsions -- no, actually, let's

14 go back to the words you used. You said "moving out of the civilians."

15 What are you talking about?

16 A. The war broke out, and then there was chaos. People were

17 afraid --

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

19 A. -- and --

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Vracar, what did you

21 mean to explain when you talked about moving out? Are you talking -- are

22 you limiting your statement to forcible expulsions of non-Serbs?

23 A. No. Voluntary moving out. They just were moving out.

24 Q. So you're saying that that is not a policy. It wasn't a policy

25 anywhere in the Autonomous Region of the Krajina; right?

Page 28650

1 A. Well, you're asking me about the entire Krajina. I don't know

2 about that.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Edgerton, you should put this part of the

4 statement of the witness on the screen again. And it's -- this sentence

5 not referring to the Autonomous Region of Krajina but Republika Srpska.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, that's correct. Could we have D789 on the

7 screen again, please.

8 Q. So, Mr. Vracar, you said in your statement it wasn't a

9 government -- the moving out of civilians wasn't a government policy

10 across the whole Republika Srpska. And you said it wasn't a military

11 policy.

12 A. It wasn't that policy. That's correct. It wasn't anyone's

13 policy.

14 Q. So even to take that down from -- from the whole entity that

15 you're talking about to the region you lived in, you're saying that that

16 wasn't a policy anywhere in Kljuc, in Prijedor, in Sanski Most. The

17 moving out of civilians wasn't a policy anywhere in the country and

18 particularly in these locations.

19 Is that what you're saying?

20 A. That is not what I'm saying.

21 Q. Well, do you want to explain? Did they -- were people moved out

22 as part of a state and military policy or not?

23 A. People followed their armies. Muslims went one way; Serbs

24 another way; and the Croats went the third way. That is correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We're mixing up at this moment what happened and

Page 28651

1 what policy was. Now to link the events to the policy would be the next

2 step but let's start with the beginning.

3 Was there any -- a formulated policy by the Republika Srpska that

4 non-Serbs would move out?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, there were some

6 instructions - and we were told so - that people should not be compelled

7 to leave, that they shouldn't leave. And this is then -- this was

8 implemented.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, in your statement, we do not

10 find anything about that. But then could I ask you, people should not be

11 compelled, should they be encourage, or should they be put in a position

12 where it was -- hmm?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Compelled, forces.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there's no need to interrupt me at that moment.

15 But were there any other means to be used to make them move out

16 other than force?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. These answers, are they true, both for

19 government policy and for military policy?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any local policy which would be

22 different? And we start with Kljuc.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All local authorities had to

24 implement the government decisions, the Republika Srpska government, and

25 in that sense, there were instructions issued. The Defence counsel also

Page 28652

1 showed me some documents, and I knew that also from our life, that there

2 shouldn't be mistreatment and forcible moving out of people, and so on

3 and so forth.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You're again rephrasing the issue. My question is

5 whether you were aware of any local policy which would be different from

6 what you just described and we start with Kljuc. Was there, in Kljuc,

7 ever any policy developed different from the one you described at the

8 government level?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any other municipality where a

11 different policy would have been adopted?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be honest, believe me, I don't

13 know.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

15 MS. EDGERTON:

16 Q. In point of fact, Mr. Vracar, in every one of these

17 municipalities that I named, including Kljuc, municipalities that had

18 significant Muslim populations, the Serbian authorities took the decision

19 that non-Serbs had to leave. And that's what's happened. And they took

20 that decision as part of a policy. Isn't that the case?

21 A. I never saw any decision of that sort. That would be completely

22 outside any normal thinking, you know, that anyone should take a decision

23 like that.

24 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look, please, at P3753.

25 Q. This is a document dated 7 June, 1992, and it's a set of

Page 28653

1 conclusions adopted at a subregional meeting of the political

2 representatives of the municipalities of Bihac, Bosanski Petrovac,

3 Srpska Krupa, Sanski Most, Prijedor, Bosanski Novi and Kljuc.

4 And if we can go down to paragraph 6 in this document.

5 Paragraph 6 says that:

6 "All seven municipalities in their subregion agree that Muslims

7 and Croats should move out of our municipalities until a level is reached

8 where Serbian authority can be maintained and implemented on its own

9 territory in each of these municipalities."

10 And if you go back to the first page, you see that the

11 conclusions from this meeting were sent to the ARK Crisis Staff and to

12 the Bosnian Serb leadership in Sarajevo.

13 So not only have your government authorities taken a decision

14 like that in the subregion you lived in, you agree that this is a

15 completely abnormal -- a decision that is completely outside any normal

16 thinking; right?

17 A. That's correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Lukic.

19 MR. LUKIC: I understand that Ms. Edgerton was not with us

20 before, but you know that we objected to this document and we would like

21 to be presented to the witness that there is no known source who --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, is it admitted or is it not admitted?

23 MR. LUKIC: It is admitted.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If there's a decision, we don't have to make

25 the witness familiar with whatever details. If the witness has any

Page 28654

1 comments on it, the point, of course, is that the witness, from what I

2 understand, at least, it's logically follows from his answers, that he

3 was not familiar with this document, but we could ask him.

4 Witness, have you ever seen this document before in your life?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Unfortunately, not.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So the witness could not assist us in any way. What

7 Ms. Edgerton was doing, she was quoting from a document which is in

8 evidence, and the authenticity of the document seems not to be within the

9 purview of the knowledge of this witness. Therefore, Ms. Edgerton may

10 proceed.

11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.

12 Q. Now --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Next time, Ms. Edgerton, if you say, next time, the

14 decision as stated in this document, then you resolve the problem.

15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Understood, Your Honours.

16 Q. Now, you pointed out in your written evidence, Mr. Vracar, that

17 requests to move out of Kljuc municipality came after the attacks of the

18 Muslims and Croats and it's at paragraph 27. We could display it in

19 D789. To be exact, you said:

20 "The requests to move out by the Muslims and Croats increased, in

21 particular, after the military actions carried out by the Muslim and

22 Croat forces."

23 But, in fact, what exacerbated the situation and put fear into

24 all of the non-Serb inhabitants of Kljuc was that after the attacks by

25 the Muslim and Croat forces, Muslim and Croat settlements not only in

Page 28655

1 Kljuc but across three municipalities were shelled, civilians were

2 killed, and massive arrests of non-Serbs were taking place, arrests by

3 the military and the police; right?

4 A. Yes, after the 27th of May, 1992.

5 Q. And, as you said yourself, word of the massive killings in

6 Velagici and Biljani were the talk of the town; correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. So --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, let me -- your previous question gave

10 a number of matters, and the witness said as an answer, "Yes, after the

11 27th of May..." Now I would like to remove any possible ambiguity.

12 After the attacks by the Muslim and Croat forces, were --

13 civilians were killed in Muslim and Croat settlements? You agree that

14 that happened?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That happened only after the

16 27th of May. On the 27th of May --

17 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm just seeking whether after the 27th of

18 May this is what happened. Were Muslim and Croat settlements not only in

19 Kljuc but across three municipalities, were they shelled?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Were massive arrests of non-Serbs taking place?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I just wanted to be sure that you're --

24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Just for me to be completely clear, who were these

25 Muslim municipalities shelled by?

Page 28656

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] TO. The Territorial Defence.

2 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And then you are referring to what I think you

4 earlier called the legitimate or the Serb TO. That's ... not any

5 competing Muslim TO.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Oh, no, no, no.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if we have such a composite question

10 which contains quite a few rather important elements then a simple yes,

11 there's always a risk that a witness responds to what he heard last and

12 that's what I tried to repair.

13 MS. EDGERTON: Of course and understood, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let me clarify the last thing, were, after the

16 27th of May, also civilians, Muslim civilians, killed?

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's a question for you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, for me. Sorry. There were

20 sporadic cases. You see, there was a lot of gangs there, renegades, who

21 were looting, torching killing. Of course, yes. It was very hard to

22 introduce law and order in such a big area. With so few forces --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... thank you,

24 thank you.

25 JUDGE MOLOTO: [Microphone not activated] the question was: Were

Page 28657

1 civilians killed.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just answered that, yes.

3 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you so much.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And we went through -- we heard earlier from you

5 that it may have been men being killed also not by gangs of renegades.

6 We went through that in quite some detail, isn't it, about what happened

7 in Biljani, for example? So the killing of civilians was not exclusively

8 committed by those gangs of renegades, was it?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know. Believe me.

10 JUDGE ORIE: No. Earlier you said that you did know that they

11 did it, but -- let's take a break.

12 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Just in respect of the Court's inquiry at the outset

14 of the session, there is no objection to the extension.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness leave the courtroom.

16 We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes, Witness.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you asked for an extension of time to

19 respond to the 45th 92 bis motion. You asked for 30 days. That request

20 is granted. The new deadline is now set for Monday, the

21 22nd of December, 2014.

22 We take a break, and we resume at 20 minutes past midday.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 28658

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, based on your request for time and

2 your later correction, the Chamber wonders whether you would finish

3 within the next session?

4 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, Your Honour, that's actually why I was on my

5 feet and I've been able to benefit from the reflection of the break, and

6 I won't be having any further questions for the witness, so ...

7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then, Mr. Lukic, how much time you think you

8 would need for re-examination?

9 MR. LUKIC: Half an hour, 40 minute, probably.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we wait and see. But...

11 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

13 MR. LUKIC: I didn't expect the cross to finish this soon, so I

14 didn't organise perfectly, so ...

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's not your first day, Mr. Lukic, so -- but, we'll

16 nevertheless try to extend the leniency to you as well.

17 Ms. Edgerton.

18 MS. EDGERTON:

19 Q. Mr. Vracar, thank you very much. I won't have any further

20 questions for you in your cross-examination.

21 A. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But there will be more questions in re-examination

23 by Mr. Lukic. So he will now start his re-examination.

24 Mr. Lukic.

25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 28659

1 Can we have - and I -- give me one second, please.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Once again, good day, Mr. Vracar.

5 A. Good day.

6 Q. My learned friend asked you something about paragraph 8 of your

7 statement in relation to the killing of Dusan Stojakovic.

8 This is what I'd like to ask you: Did anyone open fire from your

9 side at the Muslim army and their positions before they started firing at

10 you?

11 A. No, we were the regular patrol, and we were driving by in a car,

12 and they ambushed us. They fired at us, from an ambush.

13 Q. You started saying something to us today. Page 18 of today's

14 transcript, line 3, the question was -- let us look at paragraph 15 of

15 your statement. And this is what you were asked: Did you not see the

16 attack on the bus in which there were unarmed soldiers that attacked the

17 Muslim forces?

18 You confirmed that you had not seen that.

19 And then you started out by saying: While I was in hospital,

20 three dead persons were brought in and a few wounded persons. You didn't

21 finish what it was that you had wanted to explain. Do you have anything

22 to add to this?

23 A. I was given medical aid there. They brought three dead soldiers

24 in and three wounded soldiers. However, the three wounded persons, three

25 wounded soldiers, succumbed to their wounds eventually and died.

Page 28660

1 Q. On the same page of today's transcript, you were asked about the

2 attack at the repeater, and you said that you hadn't seen that

3 personally, you confirmed that, did you see the consequences on the

4 ground, the consequences of the destruction of that repeater?

5 A. Yes, the citizens could no longer watch television because the

6 repeater was on top of a hill that is dominant in that area. So once the

7 repeater was destroyed, the entire area was under an information

8 blockade, both in terms of radio and television. There was no signal.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's all in the statement. The consequences.

11 MR. LUKIC: But, still he had -- I wanted to show still he had

12 some personal knowledge, not only that he heard about it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: No. But it's clear from the statement as well.

14 MR. LUKIC: I will move on any way.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

17 Can we see P2538 on our screens, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did I hear 3528?

19 MR. LUKIC: 3528.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

21 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. My colleague just mentioned this document today during her

23 examination, and the questions pertained to the killings in Velagici and

24 paragraph 35 of your statement. This is a file cover.

25 I would like to ask for page 7, please, in both versions.

Page 28661

1 This is a criminal report that was submitted on the

2 5th of June, 1992, by an authorised officer of the military police. The

3 persons against whom this criminal report was filed are listed there. We

4 see eight persons in B/C/S, but in the English version we can see just

5 one. However, the total is 12 persons who have been charged.

6 I would like that ask for page 8 in B/C/S and page 10 in English,

7 please.

8 The reasons are mentioned. It says, "because."

9 "Because" is the word that is used in English and in the original

10 it is "sto je."

11 In the second paragraph, we see a description of what happened on

12 the 1st of June, 1992; that is to say, the criminal report was filed for

13 something that happened four days before the report itself was filed.

14 In the text, there is a description of what was found during

15 those four days, in addition to the 12 perpetrators whose names and

16 surnames are referred to.

17 Since you are not aware of any details, I'm not going to torment

18 you with any of that. The instructions that you received in the course

19 of police work, did they say that crimes should be concealed or

20 uncovered?

21 A. The police dealt with all sorts of crimes that were committed:

22 Beatings, lootings, killings, theft, all kinds of police work. I have

23 been unaware of this document until now, and now I see this criminal

24 report, and I actually know some of these persons or, rather, I knew

25 them.

Page 28662

1 Q. I understand that you're unaware of this because this was done by

2 the military police.

3 We will be needing page 9 in B/C/S and page 11 in the English

4 version. The last paragraph before the attachments.

5 MR. LUKIC: We have to move to another -- to the next page in

6 English, please.

7 Q. [Interpretation] We see that a criminal report was filed against

8 these persons for the crime of war crime against the civilian population.

9 In the course of your work, were you in charge of uncovering

10 crimes, you, personally, or were you just a member of the intervention

11 platoon?

12 A. I was just a member of the intervention platoon. This was done

13 by inspectors.

14 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to ask you kindly to focus on the

15 conversations you had with the members of the Defence team.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, have you done with the --

17 MR. LUKIC: I am.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 In this document, Witness, it is described that the task of the

20 soldiers -- and perhaps we could have a look at page 10.

21 Yes, it reads, under the "because":

22 "The basic task of the unit was to gather civilians who were

23 surrendering."

24 Were you aware that civilians were either surrendering or were

25 invited to surrender where you would usually expect soldiers to

Page 28663

1 surrender, not civilians.

2 Do you have any explanation for that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm trying to explain when

4 this incident occurred at Krasulje, then the units, the military units,

5 came from the field. This document was shown, the order of

6 Colonel Samardzija, to carry out a mop-up operation on a the ground and

7 then these arrests occurred. So it was on the 29th or 30th. I cannot

8 remember exactly. It was a long time ago. A Territorial Defence unit

9 came from the area of Cadjevica, and they carried out a mop-up operation

10 and arrests. I mean, I don't know who it was that was carrying out the

11 arrests because I was not there, so I cannot give a precise answer.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm asking you is whether this sounds familiar

13 to you, that you would invite civilians to surrender. Whereas, usually

14 in war operation, you would leave the civilians alone and focus on

15 soldiers.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, probably some of the persons

17 who were arrested had been mobilised in the so-called Muslim armed

18 forces. These people were interrogated, checked. That was the

19 procedure. Of course, these people did not have uniforms in the

20 classical sense. They were not an armed force in that way. Quite

21 simply, this was a rebellion of Muslims. They had different weapons and

22 different uniforms. This was a multi-coloured army. I don't know what

23 the system of arrest was. I mean, that's a question that I do not know

24 the answer to, I mean, what the guiding principle was for arresting

25 people. Because in order to arrest someone, someone has to stand accused

Page 28664

1 of something, and so on.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's exactly my question. My question is,

3 and I again put it to you, whether you are familiar with the system where

4 civilians are gathered who have not surrendered. Talking about mobilised

5 soldiers, you wouldn't call them civilians. Civilians are those who are

6 not combatants, are not in the army, but are just out of that.

7 Any explanation for that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to explain that

9 system. I just know that we, as the civilian police, on orders, we

10 brought in people who had done something wrong, who had stolen something,

11 had torched property, looted, and so on. I don't know about this.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to put another question to the

14 witness in -- with respect to this report.

15 You said that - it's at the end of end of page 55:

16 "I have been unaware of this document until now, and now I see

17 this criminal report."

18 In your statement, paragraph 35, you say:

19 "I know with certainty that a report on this case was filed."

20 Is that the same report, or was it another report?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just heard that a report had been

22 filed, that our investigation organs had filed a report. I mean, my

23 people in the police told me that a report had been filed against the

24 perpetrators. I hadn't seen this document. I didn't even know who the

25 perpetrators of this crime were. I mean, I know some of them. Some of

Page 28665

1 them were my neighbours and so on. It's not that I saw the document. I

2 mean, I heard when I talked to people that a report, a criminal report,

3 had been filed, but I was unaware of the content of the document.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You now say you heard, "... when I talked to

5 people."

6 What kind of people did you talk to?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, colleagues. Well, we're

8 human beings, aren't we? And we talk about things, talk about

9 everything.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your colleagues in the civilian police?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Earlier you said you're unfamiliar with this

13 report on the screen because it's from the military police.

14 How do your colleagues know that a report by the military police

15 was filed?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You would like me to say something?

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, of course. That was my question.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People talked about a report being

19 filed, but it wasn't filed by the civilian -- civilian police. We're a

20 small town. People talk about everything that happens. This is the

21 third time I'm repeating this. I haven't seen the document itself. I

22 didn't know who the perpetrators were, although I know some of them.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why did you say in your statement:

24 "I know with certainty that a report on this case was filed."

25 While, at the same time, you are telling me that you heard it,

Page 28666

1 that members of another unit wrote this report and you see it for the

2 first time today.

3 How could you have been certain about that?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll answer right now. It's

5 very simple. For instance, at our police station, inspectors conducted

6 various investigative actions. Now, if Inspector Gajic, for instance,

7 tells me a report had been filed, there is absolutely no reason for me to

8 doubt his words. He was -- I mean, as an unofficial public official.

9 That's why I was certain.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Although the report was filed not by a colleague

11 of yours; correct?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. I began asking you about these things. Do you know

16 Mikajlo Mitrovic?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Did you ever discusses with him, before you talked with me, about

19 this?

20 A. Well, Mikajlo and I know each other from the war period, and

21 we're good friends.

22 Q. Do you remember that you had a conversation with him about this

23 case before you talked about it with me?

24 A. Yes. I can't remember the date, but that did occur once. That

25 was a long time ago. Yes, that's right.

Page 28667

1 Q. When you talked about an interview, you weren't referring just to

2 your conversation with me?

3 A. Well, with you, it was official. As with Mikajlo it was more a

4 conversation. We're friends. We see each other from time to time.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.

6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm not sure how these questions are

7 arising from the cross, and they're quite leading as well.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, they may not arise directly from cross, but I

9 think I put a few questions to the witness before cross-examination which

10 may have triggered some of these questions.

11 Let me just have a look. One second, please.

12 Yes, do I understand that Mr. Mitrovic is a personal friend of

13 you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a personal friend, that's

15 a -- a term that is pretty broad. We are acquaintances, good

16 acquaintances. He is a neighbour. You know, one person has few friend,

17 but he is a good friend of mine. A neighbour, a good neighbour of mine.

18 JUDGE ORIE: A good neighbour.

19 Mr. Lukic, interviews are conducted by neighbours and friends?

20 MR. LUKIC: Mr. Mitrovic is a member of our team and he is on

21 this statement, mentioned on this statement as somebody who took --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's my question to you. So apparently if

23 you're a member of the team, you just ignore that the investigator and

24 the -- and the potential witness are friends and neighbours and you don't

25 mention that and you just send that person to interview the potential

Page 28668

1 witness.

2 Is that how I have to understand the situation?

3 MR. LUKIC: If I had hundred persons I would probably not do that

4 but if I have only one investigator in the west of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I

5 would send him, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. That's clear. That's -- that's your

7 solution. And you wouldn't then, for full transparency, inform the

8 Chamber that you were at a situation where you had no other choice then

9 to do that?

10 MR. LUKIC: I informed this Chamber many times that we were

11 understaffed, underpaid.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No, no --

13 MR. LUKIC: And it's something for this Chamber --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, you're missing the point.

15 MR. LUKIC: I'm not missing the point.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're missing the point.

17 MR. LUKIC: I'm not missing the point.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about being --

19 MR. LUKIC: I conducted the interview with this gentlemen myself

20 and we are not friends. That's all I could do. I joined investigator

21 the second time when we interviewed this gentleman.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic --

23 MR. LUKIC: Preliminary conversation was done by only my

24 investigator. Whenever you find that somebody spoke in 2013 with the

25 witnesses and you find it on our statements, it's only investigator.

Page 28669

1 Without me. Because in 2013 I was here on the trial.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You apparently missed the point again, Mr. Lukic. I

3 leave it to that. Think about it, what the point was I raised. My point

4 was not whether you had trouble in finding someone to conduct or to have

5 that conversation and whether you needed further resources. My problem

6 is that apparently, without further explaining or without further

7 consultation, that members of your team are, if even preliminary

8 conversations with persons that are friends of them and are their

9 neighbours, without transparently making that knowledge available to

10 everyone in this courtroom.

11 MR. LUKIC: I --

12 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to that.

13 MR. LUKIC: For the record, I have to state that this is the

14 first time that I heard that Mikajlo Mitrovic is a friend of this

15 gentleman. Then I would have to inquire about every single witness he

16 talked to.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I leave it to that for the time being.

18 Then your team members perhaps should have informed you about it. I am

19 not saying that you -- I personally express any blame for you but then

20 apparently your team members do not have the professional skills to

21 inform lead counsel of a personal relationship they have with persons

22 they're supposed to interview.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. LUKIC: Can I have P6932 on our screens, please.

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vracar, you were shown this document

Page 28670

1 entitled: Supplement to the monograph -- or for the monograph of the

2 1st Krajina Corps. And the date, 2nd November, 1993, is handwritten.

3 And then under on the right-hand side, it says 93.

4 A supplement for a monograph, have you -- did you ever see

5 anything like that as an official document?

6 A. No, this is the first time that I see this. And also this is the

7 first time that I hear that something like this was done during the war.

8 That really doesn't make sense.

9 Q. Do you know anything about this document?

10 A. No, this is the first time that I see it. I'd never even heard

11 about something like this.

12 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now be shown P6933, please.

13 Q. This document was shown to you. It's an order from the SDS in

14 Sarajevo, where it says that it was made public at a meeting of all

15 municipal presidents on the 26th of October, 1991. And under 1, it says,

16 "Immediately establish a command of the town ..."

17 Are you -- do you know whether there was a Town Command in Kljuc?

18 A. In 1991?

19 Q. Yes, in 1991.

20 A. Well, there was only the Secretariat of Territorial Defence.

21 That was a municipal organ. It's not a command of the town.

22 Q. At the time did the SDS command with the JNA?

23 A. No. The JNA was a state army. I mean, what do you mean a party

24 commanding the army? That's -- that couldn't be. A party couldn't

25 command the army.

Page 28671

1 Q. In the field, did you ever see that the -- the SDS commanding the

2 Territorial Defence?

3 A. Well, Territorial Defence was still under the command of

4 secretariats of the Territorial Defence of the municipality.

5 Q. At that time, had management been -- been taken over as it says

6 here:

7 "Take over management in public enterprises, post office, bank,

8 judiciary, the media."

9 For instance, in your municipality, what was the case?

10 A. Well, each municipality had their own -- had their own

11 management. What do you mean taking over management? There were people

12 who worked there. There were directors, there were people who managed,

13 managers. What do you mean take over authority? If someone was a

14 director of an enterprise, he was a director. He couldn't just be fired.

15 Q. Under 13 --

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Lukic, I

17 understood the questions by Ms. Edgerton on this document to point at

18 what may have been policy that was developed. I did not understand it as

19 evidence that it -- this is what then finally happened. There may be

20 other evidence about that, but that's how I understood Ms. Edgerton

21 introduced the document.

22 Is that correct, Ms. Edgerton?

23 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the matter of whether this finally

25 happened was not touched upon in cross-examination. It was mainly to

Page 28672

1 test the evidence of the witness that never such policies were formulated

2 or adopted.

3 Therefore, could you please keep this in mind when you are

4 re-examining on matters triggered by the cross-examination.

5 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. [Interpretation] Now, did anyone ever present any of these items

7 here as a policy that was to be implemented on the ground in 1991 and

8 1992?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. You were asked whether a document of this nature

11 could cause unrest among people of another ethnicity.

12 A. Well, yes, I went -- if something like this did happen, it would

13 really be surprising. This is a political party document, not official

14 authorities. Parties say all sorts of things. That's their problem. To

15 me, this looks like propaganda of a party.

16 Q. Well, in part, you've already answered my next question now. Do

17 you know whether this document was ever published anywhere?

18 A. No. As far as I know, it wasn't. This is the first time that I

19 see a document of this nature.

20 Q. Thank you. You were asked about paragraph 27 of your statement

21 and about the moving out of the population, and I will ask you this: Did

22 you ever receive an order or instructions as a policeman or as a civilian

23 to forcibly expelling anyone from your town?

24 A. No, never. That was not the practice, and I can say that some

25 200 Serb families left. They left voluntarily. They fled the war. I

Page 28673

1 couldn't go anywhere because my parents were bedridden. They were ill.

2 There was nowhere I could go. I couldn't leave my own country. However,

3 people were afraid. War is a great evil. And now when you don't have

4 normal authorities that can actually maintain order on the entire

5 territory, then -- when you can expect people to perhaps, you know, knock

6 on your door in the middle of the night or torch your house. People were

7 afraid. So people left on their own because it wasn't always possible to

8 maintain law and order. There were 300 or 400 policemen for a territory

9 that was about 800 square kilometres. That's not a small area.

10 Q. Did you ever see -- even if you didn't get such an order or

11 instructions, did you hear from a colleague that that colleague was

12 ordered to persecute civilians?

13 A. No, I don't know of such a case, that anyone ever ordered anyone

14 to gather their family, to pack their stuff and leave, no, I never heard

15 of anything like that happening.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now have P3753, please.

18 JUDGE MOLOTO: Can you give the number again.

19 MR. LUKIC: P3753.

20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.

21 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. [Interpretation] We have a document before us where -- in the

23 heading, can you see which organ issued this document?

24 A. No, I can't see that.

25 Q. We can also see that there is no number for this document. We

Page 28674

1 see the date, 7 June, 1992. And this document says that these are

2 conclusions adopted at a subregional meeting and then:

3 "(Of political representatives of the following municipalities:

4 Bihac, Bosanski Petrovac, Srpska Krupa, Sanski Most, Prijedor,

5 Bosanski Novi and Kljuc...)."

6 In the course of your work, did you ever come across something

7 called subregional -- subregion that would encompass these

8 municipalities?

9 A. No, this is the first time I heard of this. What kind of

10 subregion? It was an autonomous region or Autonomous Province of

11 Krajina. This was someone fooling around.

12 Q. At this time, on 7th of June, 1992, was Bihac under the control

13 of Serb or Muslim forces? That's the first town mentioned here.

14 A. Bihac was under the control of the BH army 5th Corps at that

15 time.

16 Q. You mean Muslim forces?

17 A. Yes. In fact, our army never entered Bihac.

18 Q. Very well then. Did you ever receive a document or see a

19 document that would come from a subregion, as is mentioned here?

20 A. No, never.

21 Q. Let us look at the next page in both versions. This is a

22 paragraph that was put to you by my colleague the Prosecutor. It says

23 that:

24 "All seven municipalities in our subregion agree that Muslims and

25 Croats should move out of our municipalities ..."

Page 28675

1 Did you know at the time when the war started that political

2 communities were established of municipalities that were under the

3 control of the Muslim forces, like Bihac, and partly Serb municipalities,

4 like the other six mentioned municipalities?

5 A. I didn't know that such political organisations were being

6 developed at municipal level. This is the first time I see this. What

7 kind of political community of the municipalities is this? Nothing. Who

8 felt like anything like that at the time. There was a war going on and

9 then somebody trying to invent some kind of associations. I mean,

10 somebody just invented this. This never existed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, whether it existed or not, you have no

12 knowledge about it, isn't it?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No. Thank God.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then refrain from saying, I mean, somebody just

15 invented this. This never existed. Because you don't know.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct, I don't know.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 Mr. Lukic, please, next question.

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Actually, you do not know of the existence of this subregion.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Is that correct?

23 A. Correct. This is the first time I hear of any such thing.

24 Q. All right. Now, in conclusion, I'd just like to ask you

25 something else --

Page 28676

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, the witness clearly stated and by your

2 last question, you ask him to contradict himself and you apparently

3 accept that.

4 The witness said, "This never existed."

5 MR. LUKIC: Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That means that he has knowledge about the

7 existence; namely, that it did not exist. That's what he claimed --

8 MR. LUKIC: Yes --

9 JUDGE ORIE: And when I said, So you don't know anything it, then

10 you had a follow-up question that he -- that he did not know of the

11 existence, whether that's correct -- okay. I leave it to that at this

12 very moment.

13 MR. LUKIC: I follow --

14 JUDGE ORIE: The witness --

15 MR. LUKIC: It was follow-up question on your question,

16 Your Honour, on page 68, line 21, when you proposed that this witness

17 have no knowledge about it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. LUKIC: I just wanted to see if he has no knowledge at all or

20 he does not know about the existence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That's the same for me. But please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

23 Q. [Interpretation] You were also asked whether civilian settlements

24 had been shelled. Do you know whether civilians were shelled, or

25 military formations of the other side that were in civilian settlements?

Page 28677

1 A. Military formations were shelled, those that had positions in

2 villages. Now, whether there were civilians there, I don't know.

3 Q. All right.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask the witness to give a few clear

5 examples. Could you give us the name of a settlement? Could you tell us

6 what -- whether that settlement was shelled, when, and what target was

7 then engaged?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the answer to that

9 question. There are many details involved. I was not involved in these

10 events, but there was shelling, that's for sure. When the terrain was

11 mopped up, there was certainly fighting between the Muslims and the

12 Serbs. And then there was firing from anything that people had. They

13 fired at Serbs, and Serbs fired at them.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in your explanation, you more or less

15 deny your previous answer. May I take it that you have no knowledge

16 about what targets specifically were engaged in those settlements, not

17 being able to give any example of that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not able.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then your previous answer was inaccurate, and you

20 should not have given it.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. You were also asked about mass arrests. What is your knowledge

24 about these mass arrests? What does it have to do with? Why was it the

25 people were arrested en masse?