Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28697

 1                           Monday, 24 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Today we'll start to hear the evidence through videolink.

12             Is the videolink functioning well?  Madam Registrar, at the other

13     side of the videolink, could I ask you whether you hear me, whether you

14     see me.

15             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good morning, Your Honours.  We

16     can hear you and we can see you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And we can hear you and we can see you as well,

18     which means that there are no technical obstacles and we'll start.

19             Could the witness please stand.

20             Good morning, Mr. Deuric.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

23     make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to you.  May I invite

24     you to make that solemn declaration.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 28698

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  MOMIR DEURIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           [Witness testified via videolink]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, could you inform us about who are

 8     present in the room at the other side of the videolink.

 9             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honours, apart from the

10     witness and myself, there is an IT official.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No one else.  Thank you.

12             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] No one else.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Witness, you'll first be examined by

14     Mr. Stojanovic.  I think you'll see him soon on your screen.

15     Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

16             Mr. Stojanovic, if you're ready, please proceed.

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

18                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

20        A.   Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.

21        Q.   Sir, would you kindly tell us your full name and surname slowly.

22        A.   I am Momir Deuric, son of Lazo, born on 5 July 1946 in Vlasenica

23     municipality, the settlement of Susica.

24        Q.   Mr. Deuric, did you at one point in time give a written statement

25     to the Defence team of Radovan Karadzic?

Page 28699

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we call up

 3     in e-court 65 ter 1D04305.  Could we please look at the last page.

 4        Q.   Mr. Deuric, do you see this before you now?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Is the signature on this page, as well as the date, written in

 7     your hand?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Today, having made a solemn declaration in this

10     courtroom, and after the proofing we conducted before you appeared in the

11     courtroom, would your answers to the same questions be the same as in the

12     statement and would you confirm still today that this statement reflects

13     the best of your recollection and knowledge about the events you were

14     asked about?

15        A.   Yes, my statement is entirely true, and I have nothing to change

16     in it.  All of it is the truth.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender the

19     statement of Witness Momir Deuric, which is 65 ter 1D04305.

20             MR. MacDONALD:  No objection, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 1D04305 receives number D797.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  With your leave,

Page 28700

 1     Your Honours, I should like to read the summary of this witness's

 2     statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness, Momir Deuric, found

 5     himself in his workplace at the staff of the TO of Vlasenica when the war

 6     began in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He was responsible for the security of

 7     the TO depot at an installation in Susica settlement in Vlasenica.  There

 8     were another four colleagues, two Muslims and two Serbs, doing the same

 9     job.

10             The witness eye-witnessed the pre-war national homogenisation

11     disputes between different ethnic groups around the future of Yugoslavia,

12     the response to mobilisation, and the arming of people of both Serb and

13     Muslim ethnicity.  As the war came nearer and nearer to Vlasenica, people

14     were seized by panic which caused massive movements of Serbs towards

15     Serbia and Muslims towards Kladanj and Tuzla.  The ethnic groups in urban

16     and rural environments alike were afraid of each other which resulted in

17     general mistrust.  After 21st April 1992 and the proclamation of general

18     mobilisation, the witness received a war-time assignment to continue

19     securing the Susica installation.

20             He was an eye-witness when, in early May 1992, Serb populus that

21     had fled their homes and found refuge in Vlasenica from the areas of

22     Gorazde, Kladanj, and Olovo started arriving.  They were put up in one

23     part of the depot in Susica which did not hold any military equipment.

24     This Serb populus gradually left this installation, finding better

25     accommodation.  Later on, that facility was taken over by the army which

Page 28701

 1     started bringing in Muslims allegedly from Memici village and later from

 2     Vlasenica as well.  There were cases when Muslim families came of their

 3     own accord to spend the night there, pending further transportation

 4     because they didn't feel safe at home.

 5             During his stay and work at Susica, the witness saw on several

 6     occasions some foreign delegations visiting, escorted by the police, and

 7     later found out that they were representatives of the International

 8     Red Cross.  On 26th September 1992, after the attack of Muslim forces at

 9     Rogosija village and after some of the members of his extended family

10     were killed, he was militarily engaged.  After a couple of days, when he

11     met with Dragan Nikolic, he found out from Dragan Nikolic that, in the

12     meantime, the admission centre of Susica had been closed down and the

13     persons who had been there were taken for an exchange.

14             Your Honours, this is a short summary of this witness's

15     statement, and if you don't mind, I would like to ask only a few

16     questions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do as you suggest, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I will put to you only a couple of questions about

20     things you may know about the food provided to people who were put up

21     there while you were working at the admission centre of Susica.

22             Where was the food provided from; and what was it like?

23        A.   They received food from Vlasenica.  I don't know exactly which

24     kitchen prepared it, but I believe it was called Putnik.  Food was

25     excellent.

Page 28702

 1        Q.   When going about your duty as security for part of the Susica

 2     installation which held military equipment, did you receive the same food

 3     as the people who were housed in Susica?

 4        A.   Yes, it was the same food.

 5        Q.   In the facility you were securing, were you physically separated

 6     from the facility where they were put up?

 7        A.   Those were two facilities, two buildings.  One of them stored

 8     military equipment, and I spent most of my time in that building.  I

 9     rearranged and re-stacked the equipment because when they would come,

10     they would draw some supplies and leave it in disorder, and then I had to

11     put some order into it again.  It was a separate building from the one

12     where the rest of the people were put up.

13        Q.   After being recruited, after the well-known events in Rogosija

14     village, did you ever come back to the Susica facility?

15        A.   Yes, in 1994.  Until then I was at the front line, and then they

16     assigned me to go back to my old workplace at the depot.  It was sometime

17     in October 1994.

18        Q.   At that time, until the end of the war, were there prisoners at

19     any time in the Susica facility?

20        A.   There were no prisoners.

21        Q.   Mr. Deuric, thank you for your answers.  You will now be probably

22     examined by my learned friends from the Prosecution.  Thank you.

23        A.   You're welcome.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the

25     witness?

Page 28703

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  We are, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you will now be cross-examined by

 3     Mr. MacDonald.  Mr. MacDonald is counsel for the Prosecution.

 4             Please proceed.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. MacDonald:

 6        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Deuric.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   I'll be asking you questions mainly about Susica camp.  But

 9     before I do that, I'd like to take you to paragraph 26 of your statement.

10     You say you participated in combat operations at Cerska and Kravica in

11     March 1993; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, it's true.

13        Q.   In the same paragraph, you speak about an incident involving

14     Muslim fighters on Mount Udrc and you say they came down from that

15     mountain and killed 12 soldiers from the Krajina area.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

18             MR. MacDONALD:  -- 09563.

19        Q.   This is a combat report of 2nd March 1993.  It's from the command

20     of the Zvornik Brigade to the command of the Drina Corps, and it speaks

21     about that area at that time.  I'd like to take you to the second half of

22     point 1.  The text reads:

23             "At around 8.30 hours, columns of civilians and soldiers with

24     pack animals were noticed from Udrc and Rasevo towards Konjevic Polje.

25     The columns were hit with every available means."

Page 28704

 1             So near the same place you speak about these Muslims killing

 2     12 soldiers in the 1st Krajina Corps, and at the same time as that

 3     incident, the VRS was shelling columns that included civilians with all

 4     available means; is that right?

 5        A.   That is not true.  From Udrc, that group came out and killed

 6     12 soldiers of the Krajina Corps.  In Cerska we didn't find any

 7     civilians.  This group had been on mountain Udrc and they came down to

 8     the nearest village, Babici, because the Krajina Corps --

 9        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I'm asking you about this report which is a separate

10     incident, albeit at the same place at the same time, about the VRS

11     shelling columns that included civilians and hitting them with all

12     available means that they had.  Are you aware of that happening?

13        A.   I don't know anything about that.  We passed through Cerska going

14     to Konjevic Polje, and from Konjevic Polje to Kravica, we didn't see any

15     civilians on our way.  I'm talking about myself and my unit.

16        Q.   I'll move on.

17             MR. MacDONALD:  I understand from my colleague that is, in fact,

18     already admitted as P06928.  My thanks.

19        Q.   Mr. Deuric, in your own operations at this time, you were

20     co-ordinating with the 1st Krajina Corps and a special unit commanded by

21     Commander Mauzer; is that correct?

22        A.   I don't know who commanded that unit.  Our unit was from

23     Vlasenica, and it passed through Cerska, Konjevic Polje, on our way to

24     Kravica.  On the left and on the right, I don't know which units were

25     there.  And when we left Kravica and came to Siljkovici village, then we

Page 28705

 1     saw that we had the 1st Krajina Corps to our right.  We stayed for about

 2     four or five days there, I believe.

 3             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

 4     09775.

 5             This is a Drina Corps combat order from the 12th of February,

 6     1993.  I'd like to move to page 3 in the English and page 3 in the B/C/S.

 7     And I'm looking for paragraph 5.3.

 8             And here we see the Bratunac lpbr with a battalion of the

 9     1st Krajina Corps and the 3rd Infantry Battalion are to mount an attack.

10     They are to carry out active operations with a special operations brigade

11     where Mauzer is in command.

12             You were part of the 3rd Infantry Battalion; correct?

13        A.   I think so.

14        Q.   Kravica was the area that you were deployed in?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Your objective was to capture Kravica village at that time.

17        A.   Yes.  But we were not involved in any combat.  We advanced mostly

18     in a column.  We didn't see any civilians or enemy troops.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  The Prosecution would move to tender this

20     document, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 09775 receives number

23     P6935.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

25             Witness, could I ask you one additional question.  In your

Page 28706

 1     previous answers, it -- you gave the impression that it was coincidence

 2     or at least that you found out only during the operations at the end that

 3     the Krajina Corps was there, I think you said, to your left.

 4             Do you have any knowledge about whether there was a co-ordination

 5     as is suggested by the document just shown to you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Krajina Corps was to our right,

 7     to the right of my unit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have made a mistake, but -- whether they were

 9     to your right or to your left.  But do you know anything about

10     co-ordination between your unit and units from the Krajina Corps?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. MacDONALD:

15        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I'd like to turn to Susica camp now.

16             You were working in a warehouse guarding TO material.  How far

17     away was the warehouse in which the prisoners were kept?

18        A.   Maybe 20 metres, not more than that.

19        Q.   And I'm right in saying there were no physical barriers within

20     the camp, nothing stopping you walking from your warehouse to that

21     warehouse?

22        A.   Only the entrances were a bit further away, the entrance into

23     both buildings.

24        Q.   I'm sorry if my question wasn't clear.  I would just like you to

25     confirm there was no physical barrier between the door of your warehouse

Page 28707

 1     and the door of the warehouse in which the prisoners were kept.  That's

 2     right, isn't it?

 3        A.   No, no.  No barriers, none.

 4        Q.   There was an electricity pole in the shape of an A at the camp,

 5     wasn't there?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   How far away was that pole from the warehouse in which you were

 8     working?

 9        A.   Well, roughly 20 metres away, 15, 20 metres away.

10        Q.   And if I come out of the warehouse that you're working in, there

11     is no obstacle between myself and the pole, no physical obstacle, is

12     there?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Just for clarity on the record I'll rephrase that question.

15             Is there any physical obstacle between the door of the warehouse

16     in which you were working and the pole we've just discussed?

17        A.   Well, several times empty boxes were piled up, those that had

18     contained shells ammunition, et cetera, so that was between the door and

19     the pole, sometimes.

20        Q.   I'll move on.  You reported to Vlasenica Territorial Defence on

21     21st April 1992 in response to a summons; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When you were providing security at the Territorial Defence

24     facilities, you've said the army took over control of Susica at the end

25     of May.  Slobodan Pajic was a VRS officer who was present at Susica; is

Page 28708

 1     that right?

 2        A.   Slobodan?  I don't know which Slobodan this may be.  There was

 3     Slobodan Pajic, but he wasn't in Susica.

 4        Q.   I wonder if I can take to your Karadzic testimony, sir.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  That is 65 ter number 31641.  And I'd like to

 6     move to page 14.

 7        Q.   There is no B/C/S translation of this, sir, so I'm just going to

 8     read it out to you.  You were being asked by a lawyer and he states the

 9     following:

10             "After the same page this witness refers to Veljko Basic and

11     Slobodan Pajic, who, according to this witness, took a bus load of women

12     and children out of Susica and they were never returned.  You told us

13     about Veljko Basic in your statement.  Slobodan Pajic was a VRS

14     officer --"

15             You say:  "Yes."

16             And then the question is repeated:

17             "Slobodan Pajic was a VRS officer who was present at Susica,

18     isn't it?"

19             You answer:  "Yes."  You state that Veljko Basic was the camp

20     warden, and then you move on.

21             So, sir, if I can ask you again, Slobodan Pajic was a VRS officer

22     who was present at Susica, wasn't he?

23        A.   Yes, Slobodan was there briefly, though.  He left Susica.  I

24     don't know where he went to the front line.

25        Q.   When was he there?

Page 28709

 1        A.   In the month of May.  I don't know ... I don't know exactly.  End

 2     of May, I think.  Mid-may, something like that.

 3        Q.   Are you aware about -- that he carried out or ordered the

 4     carrying out of an assessment on security of Susica that was completed in

 5     June?

 6        A.   I don't know about that.

 7        Q.   I'll come back to that in a moment.  Who was your superior at

 8     Susica?

 9        A.   I heard that Veljko was the warden of the camp.  Veljko Bosic, a

10     retired policeman.

11        Q.   Yes, you say that in your statement.  Who was your superior?

12        A.   To us?  Well, the late Bosko Nastic.  He was later our company

13     commander and the former Chief of Staff.

14        Q.   Thank for that.  Have I understood you correctly that

15     Bosko Nastic was your superior when you were working at Susica?

16        A.   Yes.  He was Chief of Staff until 1991, and then he was replaced

17     by Fikret Hodzic.  No, Ferid Hodzic actually.

18        Q.   When was he replaced by Ferid Hodzic?

19        A.   1991.  I don't know the month exactly.  I think August,

20     September, something like that.

21        Q.   And when the army took over the camp in May of 1992 --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, matters become a bit confused, it

23     seems.

24             Witness, you were asked about Mr. Bosko Nastic.  You were asked

25     whether he was your superior when you were working at Susica.  Was he?

Page 28710

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, because he knew that

 2     warehouse, the equipment, and all of this where I worked.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And when exactly was that?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 21st of April, when I was

 5     assigned to Susica.  And before the military operations, I worked in

 6     Susica too.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  21st of April of what year?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  He then, in April 1992 -- who -- he was your

10     superior, if I understand you well?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  And until when did he remain your superior in

13     Susica?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A month, I think, and then he went

15     to the front.  He was company commander there.  As for the rest who

16     worked in the Crisis Staff then, I don't know --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer hear the

18     witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I've received answers to my questions.

20             Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

21             MR. MacDONALD:

22        Q.   Prisoners of war were being held in Susica camp, weren't they?

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24        Q.   I think the interpreters can't hear you, sir.  I wonder if you

25     could try moving closer to the microphone.  I'll repeat my question with

Page 28711

 1     a bit more clarity.

 2             Prisoners of war were being held in Susica camp after the army

 3     took over at the end of May 1992, weren't they?

 4        A.   Yes.  In the month of May.  I don't know exactly when the army

 5     took over, but it was in May.

 6        Q.   And there were hundreds of detainees in Susica at any one time,

 7     weren't there?

 8        A.   Well, when there were a lot of them there, then they would be

 9     sent for an exchange.  As far as I know, people were exchanged as soon as

10     there would be a lot of people there, especially civilians, women,

11     children.  They would send them off straight away.  They would send them

12     off straight away, when people wanted to go to Kladanj, Cerska.

13        Q.   Well --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, you use in your question, the term

15     "prisoners of war."  Did you intend to use that in a technical sense?  Is

16     it the position of the Prosecution that these were combatants taken

17     prisoner or was it -- did you have something else on your mind.

18             MR. MacDONALD:  No, Your Honour, I'm just about to challenge that

19     term, if I can, using other evidence with the witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you're putting it to the witness that

21     there were prisoners of war and then the witness says "yes."

22             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm about to bring up the fact

23     that civilians were also held there with evidence to that point.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

25             MR. MacDONALD:  I'll move on to what you just said at the end.

Page 28712

 1        Q.   In fact, Susica camp was also holding women, children, and

 2     elderly as well, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.  I've already mentioned that there were some people who

 4     volunteered there because it was safer to be there than at home.  That's

 5     what they would say.

 6        Q.   Mr. Deuric, to be clear, the position of the Prosecution is that

 7     the army brought in civilians and held them at Susica and that included

 8     men who were not combatants, women, children, and elderly.  And the

 9     Chamber has heard evidence from different witnesses as to that.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, in terms of reference, I would

11     reference RM088, P524, page 8, paragraph 36.  And that witness mentions

12     young women and girls.  Other witnesses also mention civilians, including

13     a pregnant woman and a disabled man being held for some time at Susica.

14     I'm happy to provide the references to Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, if you'd look at the answers,

16     especially page 15, lines 12, 13, 14, the witness said that there were

17     civilians, women and children.  So at the same time, if you look at his

18     answer - let me just check what line it is - about their status there,

19     let me say it in that way, it seems that that's more the problem at

20     least ...

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you look at page 16, the beginning of

23     line 7, that's the second line in his answer, then it seems that if

24     there's any dispute, it might be there rather than whether there were

25     civilians.

Page 28713

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Mr. Deuric, some detainees were held for lengthy periods of time

 4     at Susica camp.  That's right, isn't it?

 5        A.   Well, yes, but they went and did different kinds of work.  They

 6     volunteered to work.  Most of them were craftsmen anyway.

 7        Q.   Mr. Deuric, there was a visit from the CSCE on the 2nd of

 8     September, 1992, and they reported upon seeing the detainees that they

 9     appeared to be haggard, pale, and thin.  And they concluded:  "There can

10     be little doubt that most are hungry."

11             The detainees you saw at Susica camp, were they -- they were

12     haggard, pale, and thin, were they not, at the start of September?

13        A.   Well, what can I say?  Of course, there were those who were

14     skinny by nature, who arrived there skinny, but even they volunteered to

15     go and do different kinds of work.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

17     07021A.  This is an excerpt from the report I've just mentioned.  If we

18     could have the second page in the English, please, and the second page in

19     the B/C/S.

20             The first page, Your Honours, is the cover page of the entire

21     report and the rest is the excerpt.

22             Under the heading:  "Number of detainees and description," the

23     second line -- my apologies.  If we could have page 2 in the English.

24     I'm getting ahead of myself.  The heading is:  "Health-related

25     conditions" -- sorry, page 3 in the English.  Thank you.

Page 28714

 1        Q.   The second paragraph under that heading, the third line in, it

 2     states:

 3             "Detainees appeared to be haggard, pale, and thin, but we were

 4     less able to assess the state of nourishment as they were dressed in

 5     heavier clothing.  There can be little doubt that most are hungry."

 6             Now, Mr. Deuric, it is the position of the Prosecution that these

 7     detainees became this way because they were held in Susica for lengthy

 8     periods of time and not fed correctly.

 9        A.   I wouldn't agree with that.  I know that food was brought in

10     regularly and I know that everybody received food.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we go back to page 2 in the English, same

12     page of B/C/S, and now look at:  "Number of detainees and description."

13        Q.   The second line reads:

14             "We were told that this centre is used to hold and document

15     prisoners as well as Serbian refugees for periods of several days, but we

16     determined that at least several of these detainees have been held here

17     for two months or more.  It is our impression that these are innocent

18     civilians who have not borne arms against the Serbian captors and that

19     several of them were local residents."

20             Firstly, Mr. Deuric, you would agree at least several of the

21     detainees had been held there for two months or more?

22        A.   I don't know about that.  I don't know when people were brought

23     in exactly or when they were taken out for exchanges or how long they

24     were kept there.

25        Q.   Mr. Deuric, earlier you were happy to tell the Court that some

Page 28715

 1     detainees arrived and were taken away straight away.  That is the claim

 2     you made.  If you knew about that, sir, you must have known several of

 3     the detainees were held for longer periods, including two months or more?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  One -- one second, please, Witness.

 6             Mr. Stojanovic.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has already answered

 8     this question; namely, that he did not know how long these people were

 9     kept there, specifically two months.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  With the introduction as given by

11     Mr. MacDonald, the question is admissible.

12             The witness may answer the question.

13             Could you please answer the question.  Mr. MacDonald asked you

14     that -- why you were able to tell us that -- that some prisoners had left

15     very quickly upon their arrival.  Why wouldn't you know that others may

16     not have left that quickly?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, please, as far as I know,

18     some asked to be exchanged straight away.  And others stayed, they wanted

19     to work.  They went out and did different kinds of work.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you personally meet with the Muslims there?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, the ones I knew.  There

22     were quite a few of them that I knew and we would meet up and socialise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So I'm asking you this because, in paragraph 20 of

24     your statement, I read:

25             "Even while I was in Susica during the day, I would mainly spend

Page 28716

 1     the time in our premises to avoid being seen by Muslims whom I knew

 2     because they might have asked me for something."

 3             So there you say that you were more or less avoiding contact with

 4     the Muslims, whereas you tell me now that you would socialise with them.

 5     Could you please explain to me the variation in these answers?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, I could not avoid

 7     contact when they were ten people who all of them knew me.  I didn't

 8     avoid contact.  If they asked me to fetch something or to give them a

 9     cigarette or to light their cigarette, of course, we had contact.  I

10     didn't particularly avoid them.  But I avoided situations in which they

11     might ask for some kind of help I would be unable to give.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What kind of help you thought they would ask from

13     you, that you wanted to stay away from?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What kind of help?  For instance, a

15     man I knew, a friend of mine, asked me several times to take him

16     somewhere to have a bath, and I was not allowed to do that.  I just

17     wasn't able to.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us who that was?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, if I could only remember.  It

20     was 22 years ago.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It was a friend of you, you told us.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there were some.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But I do understand that you remember that a friend

24     of yours asked you several times to take him somewhere to have a bath,

25     and at the same time, you're telling us that you do not know who he was.

Page 28717

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I forgot the names of those people.

 2     I can't remember his name.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Was he a soldier?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you know that he was a friend of yours.  You

 6     know exactly what he asked you.  You know that he was a soldier.  But you

 7     don't know who he was.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the names.  I knew

 9     them from military drills before the war.  They would come before the war

10     for military exercises.  We got along well, but even then I didn't know

11     the names of them all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So there were vague acquaintances rather than

13     friends of yours.  Is that correctly understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Acquaintances.  I knew them.  All

15     the men who had been at those military drills, they knew me by name, but

16     when 100 of them would come for a military drill, I couldn't know

17     everyone's name.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And they were not allowed to leave the camp, if I

19     understand you well.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  That was not my job.

21     I spent my time in the depot where I worked.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But if --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they had their own guards and

24     commanders.  Whether they allowed them to go out or not, I don't know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, otherwise he would have gone out and taken a

Page 28718

 1     bath wherever he wanted to take that bath, isn't it?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because you are telling us that you knew that

 4     you couldn't take him anywhere where he could take a bath, that it was

 5     not allowed.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not allowed for me.  I had

 7     no authority over them.  I had no authority to contact them.  And I

 8     didn't have time.  I was working at that depot.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you think -- do you --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My wife and children were in

11     Serbia.  I was thinking in the evening I have time to go back home to

12     feed the cattle and then come back.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand that you didn't have the time.

14     But do you think that he would have repeatedly asked you to take him to a

15     place where he could take a bath if he could have gone there himself?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought if I do that favour for

17     one person, others would ask for it too, and I would have no time for all

18     of them, and that's why I didn't want to begin.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're contradicting yourself here to the

20     extent that you say that you were not allowed to do it; whereas you now

21     tell us you didn't do it because you wouldn't have time for all to do the

22     same.  Any explanation for that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't have permission, but

24     even if I had permission, I couldn't do it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, would it not just be the case that they were

Page 28719

 1     detained there and that they were prisoners and not allowed to go out and

 2     that you didn't take them out?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how and whether you

 4     understand it.  I did not have time, nor did I ever ask my superiors if I

 5     was allowed to do it.  And even if somebody had expressly allowed me, I

 6     couldn't do it because if I did it once, then I would be spending all my

 7     time doing only that and I would have no time left over for my own job.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, my question was a different one.  Isn't it

 9     true that these people were not there volunteering in any way in either

10     being there or doing their job because they were just prisoners?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't answer.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

15             Please proceed.  I'm looking at the clock.

16             MR. MacDONALD:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I should have looked at the clock ten minutes

18     earlier as a matter of fact.  Apologies for that, for taking too long.

19             Could the witness -- no, we don't have to ask the witness to be

20     escorted out of the courtroom because he isn't in.

21             We take a break, Witness, and we'll resume at 11.00.  We'd like

22     to see you back then.

23             Mr. MacDonald -- oh, you're just standing.  Yes.

24             We take a break.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.

Page 28720

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  From what I see, the videolink is still functioning.

 3     Is the audio okay as well?  I'm asking Madam Registrar at the other side

 4     of the videolink.

 5             THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honours, we can hear you

 6     and we can see you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Same is true for us.

 8             Mr. MacDonald, would you please continue your cross-examination.

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Mr. Deuric, with the last document we looked at, that was the

11     CSCE mission to Susica at the start of September 1992, I read that their

12     impression was that the people they spoke to that they determined had

13     been there for two months or more were innocent civilians who had not

14     borne arms against the Serbian captors.  That impression is correct,

15     isn't it?

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will apologise if I

19     misunderstood, but the Prosecution's question reads that, according to

20     the report of the mission, those were civilians who were unarmed; whereas

21     in the document before us in B/C/S it reads:  "We had the impression that

22     those were innocent civilians who did not attack the Serbs armed with

23     weapons," which is not the same as not carrying weapons.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I don't know whether there's any mistake in

25     the translation.  I cannot verify that.  But then it's an inappropriate

Page 28721

 1     way to deal with the matter, Mr. Stojanovic, because the -- Mr. Lukic is

 2     sitting next to you.  I think Mr. MacDonald has just quoted the content

 3     of the report.  And, therefore, unless there's any translation issue

 4     which should be dealt with in a different way, that is to seek

 5     verification of the translation rather than to comment on it.

 6             Witness, the impression of the CSCE mission that the people they

 7     spoke to that they had determined to have been there for two months or

 8     more were innocent civilians who had not borne arms against the Serbian

 9     captors, was that impression correct?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not know that.  I did not

11     keep a record as to how much time a person spent there.  Two days,

12     one month, two months, longer ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And that there were civilians?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were civilians.  That's

15     indisputable [Realtime transcript read in error "That's I say

16     disputable"].  But there were also soldiers in civilian clothing.  Not

17     all of them were wearing uniforms.  Whether somebody was brought there as

18     a military person or as a civilian, I didn't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand that you had no knowledge about who

20     may have been soldiers or civilians who were detained there?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really couldn't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I also understand that you had no knowledge about

23     how they came there, how they arrived there, who had brought them, for

24     what reasons?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't know.

Page 28722

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you check on a daily basis the amount of

 2     food the prisoners or those detained there received?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there when lunch was served,

 4     breakfast and lunch, because we took our food at the same place, from the

 5     same cauldron.  And they gave them the same rations as they gave me and

 6     the others.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And did you stay there so that you could

 8     observe all of them receiving food?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not observe.  Food was

10     distributed outside and all of them were outside.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  "All of them," meaning how many exactly?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you said they were all outside when they

14     received food.  I asked you how many there were that you did observe

15     receiving food.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depended.  It wasn't the same

17     number every day.  Some people would leave in the morning to go out to

18     work.  Not all of them would be on site.  Because food was distributed at

19     the workplace.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  So whether those who went outside received lunch or

21     not, you wouldn't know?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know, but I judged that

23     they did get food because they volunteered to go out to work.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

25             Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

Page 28723

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you do, Mr. MacDonald, if I could just

 2     to check with the witness here.

 3             Witness, you were asked a question whether -- at page 25,

 4     line 16, Judge Orie asked you a question:  "And that there were

 5     civilians?"  And you said:  "They were civilians."  That -- you are now

 6     recorded as having said:  "That's I say disputable."  I thought I'd heard

 7     something different.

 8             Did you say anything different?  I thought I heard you say

 9     "indisputable."

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said some of them were in

11     civilian clothing and whether they had ever been on the front line, I

12     don't know.  Whether they had ever been in combat, I don't know.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But at this specific point, did you say it was

14     disputable that there were civilians or did you say that it was

15     indisputable that there were civilians?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it's disputable.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Okay.  Thank you so much.

19             MR. MacDONALD:

20        Q.   Mr. Deuric, you were aware that the Muslim detainees were

21     suffering from violence inflicted on them by the guards, weren't you?

22        A.   I don't know that.  People said all sorts of things, but I never

23     eye-witnessed that kind of violence.

24        Q.   You know Predrag Bastah and Goran Viskovic?

25        A.   I do.

Page 28724

 1        Q.   They were both guards at Susica camp when you worked there,

 2     weren't they?

 3        A.   Yes, for a short while.  They didn't stay there long as guards.

 4        Q.   You're aware that they were both convicted before the Court of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina for crimes committed in Susica and Vlasenica, aren't

 6     you?

 7        A.   I know, I heard about it.

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

 9     31640.

10        Q.   Mr. Deuric, this is the verdict in that case.  The crimes that

11     these two were found guilty included taking prisoners away from Susica,

12     many of whom are still missing.  And in particular, Goran Viskovic, a

13     member the VRS, was found guilty of taking prisoners away to perform

14     forced labour and for the rape of one of the female detainees.  According

15     to the verdict, the Susica guards were present while these crimes were

16     taking place.  You must have been aware at the time that these crimes

17     were taking place?

18        A.   I was not there at the time.

19        Q.   When did you find out about these crimes?

20        A.   I found out after I left Susica, after the 26th September.

21        Q.   Yes, but when?

22        A.   I can't remember when.  People talked around the town.  How much

23     of it was true, I don't know.  I was not a witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, when the witness says, "I was not

25     there at the time," that suggests that he has received information about

Page 28725

 1     when it happened, and from your question, I think, it does not appear

 2     when it happened.  So, therefore, that creates confusion.  We have

 3     difficulties in assessing the reliability of the witness's evidence if we

 4     do not know what the date of the crimes charged are.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   These crimes are charged between June and September 1992.  And

 7     for clarity, you were working at Susica camp during that time, weren't

 8     you, Mr. Deuric?

 9        A.   Yes, I worked at Susica.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You worked in Susica between June and

11     September 1992?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. MacDONALD:

15        Q.   Mr. Deuric, one of your former colleagues, a Muslim that had also

16     provided security for TO material at Susica before the war, was also held

17     at Susica camp, wasn't he?

18        A.   No.

19             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

20     31638.  Your Honours, I'd ask that this not be broadcast.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.  Is there any instruction to

22     be given to the witness in this respect?

23             MR. MacDONALD:  No, Your Honours, it's --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Fine.

25             MR. MacDONALD:

Page 28726

 1        Q.   Mr. Deuric, you'll see someone's name on the page in front of

 2     you.  Please don't read that name out.  He was a former colleague of

 3     yours at Susica, was he not?

 4        A.   I don't see that name on the screen.  I do, I do.  I know.

 5        Q.   Was that person a former colleague of yours at Susica?

 6        A.   Yes, he was a neighbour of ours.  His house is next to the depot.

 7        Q.   Did he work at the Susica with you before the war?

 8        A.   No, he didn't.  He worked in the forestry company.  He didn't

 9     work in the TO Staff.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  I wonder if we can have page 3 in the English of

11     this document.  I think it's also page 3 in the B/C/S.  Yes, that's

12     right.  The paragraph at the very top.

13        Q.   Mr. Deuric, you can read this paragraph, and you'll see this

14     person states that you are firstly his friend and that he was working

15     with you.  Now, he was working with you, was he not?

16        A.   He never worked with me.  No.  He was just a neighbour to all of

17     us guards.

18             MR. MacDONALD:  Perhaps if we can have page 7 in both

19     documents -- both languages, my apologies.  I'll move to the second-last

20     paragraph in the English, and I believe it's the sixth-last paragraph in

21     the B/C/S.

22        Q.   In this paragraph, Mr. Deuric, this person describes an incident

23     where Dragan Nikolic pushed a gun into his mouth and then states that you

24     came in the hangar and that you saved his life.

25             Do you recall that incident, Mr. Deuric?

Page 28727

 1        A.   I don't recall that incident, nor did I see it.  I gave the same

 2     evidence last time.  I didn't see it.  It's possible that it happened,

 3     but if they saw me as somebody they knew, they may have stopped doing it

 4     when they saw me and then that person understood that I saved his life.

 5     But I didn't see it.

 6        Q.   Well, did you go into the warehouse?

 7        A.   No.  I came to the door.  I think somebody had a visit, a

 8     visitor, and they were looking for a guard.  If they couldn't find a

 9     guard, they would address me and ask:  Could you go and get such and

10     such, and then I would tell that person that he had a visitor.  In such

11     cases, I would go to the door.

12             MR. MacDONALD:  Could we please have 65 ter number 31641.

13        Q.   This is your testimony from last time, sir.

14             MR. MacDONALD:  I'd like to move to page 15.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. MacDonald, of course, I do not know how we'll

16     proceed.  However, if you'd look at your question at page 29, line 16,

17     then you see that that question contains two elements, and where the

18     witness said that they never worked together, the emphasis and the focus

19     was entirely on that element.  The other element was lost which may be

20     relevant and important.  This is an encouragement also to avoid composite

21     questions.

22             Now please proceed where I stopped you.  Yes.

23             MR. MacDONALD:

24        Q.   Yes, it's lines 6 to 12 here.  And, Mr. Deuric, again, this is

25     not in your language so I will read it out to you.  The Prosecutor in

Page 28728

 1     that case is asking you about this incident, and he states:

 2             "So this is the big paragraph in this statement when this

 3     colleague of yours said that Nikolic was pushing gun to his throat and

 4     you entered the big, new building.  Do you see that, Mr. Deuric?"

 5             You reply:  "I see it.

 6             You were then asked:  "So do you remember this?"

 7             And you reply:

 8             "I didn't see him put his rifle into his mouth, but I met Jenki

 9     on his way out of the warehouse."

10             Firstly, Jenki was Dragan Nikolic's nickname, wasn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Deuric, I'd suggest to you that you do, in fact,

13     remember this incident taking place, don't you?

14        A.   I don't remember that incident.  I state that to you with full

15     responsibility.  I'm saying that that is possible that they had seen me,

16     but I did not see them when that happened.

17        Q.   I'll move on.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, could the witness tell us who "them" are?  You

19     said you didn't see "them."

20             What you did refer to?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Jenki and that friend of mine

22     who said that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you never see him or did you only not see

24     him at the incident described?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In that situation, in that

Page 28729

 1     incident.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So -- but you do know that he was in Susica although

 3     you do not remember to have seen him in those particular circumstances.

 4     Is that correctly understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was in Susica.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And you -- and he was detained there?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Now we have an answer to the second element of your question

10     earlier put to the witness, Mr. MacDonald.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. MacDONALD:

13        Q.   Mr. Deuric, this Chamber has received evidence of other witnesses

14     who were held in Susica camp.  One testified that two prisoners were

15     taken out sometime after lunch.  He states he heard only screaming.  Then

16     the prisoners were brought back in, one of whom was unconscious.  And he

17     stated he overheard them saying they had been beaten by the A tower

18     outside the hangar.  The reference there is P207, paragraph 42.

19             That A tower, that's the one you testified was 15 to 20 metres

20     away from the door of your warehouse; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Did you see or hear this beating taking place by that tower?

23        A.   Didn't see it, didn't hear it.

24        Q.   The same witness stated he was able to see a patch of blood that

25     had soaked into the sand by that A-shaped tower whenever he went to the

Page 28730

 1     toilet, and that is at paragraph 50.  The witness who was a former

 2     colleague of yours, the one we've just discussed about the incident with

 3     Dragan Nikolic, he stated that whenever it rained, the rain would bring

 4     the blood bubbling back up at that A-shaped pole.  And that is page 7 of

 5     65 ter 31638 in both languages.

 6             Did you see this blood-soaked patch of sand by the A-shaped pole

 7     at any point when you were working at Susica?

 8        A.   I never saw that.

 9             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please now have P00193.

10        Q.   Mr. Deuric, this is a VRS security assessment from June of 1992.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  Can we have page 4 in both languages, please.

12        Q.   That security assessment relates to Susica.  I'm looking for the

13     second-last paragraph in the English, the fourth-last paragraph in the

14     B/C/S, where it states:

15             "In order to prevent informing the public about the prisoners'

16     appearance and the conditions they live in, any attempts to take

17     recording devices and explosives inside or conduct interviews must be

18     prevented, extensive movement must be prohibited and so on."

19             Mr. Deuric, the VRS stated this -- recommended this measure

20     because there were innocent civilians who had been detained for lengthy

21     periods of time, who looked pale, thin and haggard, and had been subject

22     to violence; isn't that right?

23        A.   You know what?  It's not that I was there and that I could be

24     checking on everything that was going on.  I had my own duties.  I was

25     not there non-stop, from morning to night.  I had my time off too.  I

Page 28731

 1     could go home, get some rest.  I cannot know everything that was going on

 2     there within the compound, both when I was there and when I was not

 3     there.  Even when I was within the compound, I had my own work to do.

 4        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I'm going to turn to my last topic which is the end

 5     of Susica as a camp.

 6             Towards the end of September, just before you heard the heavy

 7     gun-fire from Rogosija, there were just over 100 prisoners at Susica

 8     camp; isn't that right?

 9        A.   Well, I wouldn't know how many there were because every day they

10     went out and worked.  It was only in the evening that everybody was

11     within the compound.  I was not there in the evening, so I could not

12     assess how many there were.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That's -- could I ask the witness a few questions.

14             You said they went out for work but you didn't see them in the

15     evening because you weren't there.  Did you not see them returning to the

16     camp in the early evening hours?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them in the morning in the

18     camp when I would arrive from home, those who would line up and go out to

19     work.  And then that would happen on the following day as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I was asking about them returning in the

21     evening hours to the camp, whether you saw them then.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometimes.  Sometimes when I would

23     stay longer, I would be there within the compound when they would arrive.

24     But if I would leave earlier, then they would not have been back.  They

25     would arrive only later.

Page 28732

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you usually have left already when they

 2     returned, or was it more common that you were still there, when they

 3     returned?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it depended on the work.  If

 5     I had more work to do at the warehouse, then I would stay on, and then

 6     they would come back by that time.  If I had no work, then I went home

 7     early.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that there were situations where

 9     you -- why you had to stay later, but my question was whether usually -

10     that is, during most of the days - you would have left already or whether

11     most of the days you would still be there if they would return?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In most cases, they would return

13     while I was still there.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the question was whether there were

15     100 prisoners.  Could you tell us -- you said:  Well, I wouldn't know

16     because I wasn't there in the evening, and you saw them in the morning.

17     Why wouldn't you be able to tell that there were approximately 100 if you

18     saw them in the morning hours and on many days also returning in the

19     evening hours?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you, I wasn't the

21     one who was supposed to count them so that I would know approximately how

22     many of them there were there.  It's possible that there were up to 100.

23     I'm saying possible.  Perhaps there were less.  I'm not sure.  I cannot

24     talk about things that I'm not sure of.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, an assessment of about 100, you can make that,

Page 28733

 1     isn't it?  No one is asking you whether it was 95 or 105 but

 2     approximately a hundred.  You'd know that, wouldn't you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. MacDonald.

 5             MR. MacDONALD:  Can the Prosecution please have 65 ter number

 6     07651C.

 7        Q.   Mr. Deuric, this is an excerpt from the war diary of

 8     Novica Simic, the commander of the Eastern Bosnia Corps.  And it's in the

 9     top right of the B/C/S and the bottom left of the English, you'll see a

10     note stating:  "Birac Brigade" and the date 20th -- or 20.09.  I should

11     say this war diary is from 1992.

12             Now, you were still working at Susica camp on the 20th of

13     September, 1992, weren't you?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And inside the box, it states:  "Prison in Vlasenica.  Women 2.

16     Men 130."

17             So does that aid your recollection in late September there were

18     over 100 in the prison in Vlasenica?

19        A.   According to what is written here, if that is correct, then ...

20        Q.   What I'm asking, Mr. Deuric, and I'll be as specific as possible,

21     is whether this aids your recollection that there were 132 people in

22     Susica on the 20th of September, 1992?

23        A.   I'm not sure.

24             MR. MacDONALD:  The Prosecution moves --

25             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

Page 28734

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not understand

 2     what the witness was saying.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you repeat your last answer, Witness, or the

 4     last thing you said.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.

 6             MR. MacDONALD:  The Prosecution moves to tender this excerpt.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document number 07651C receives

 9     number P6936.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. MacDONALD:

12        Q.   Mr. Deuric, this Court has heard evidence that the prisoners

13     remaining in Susica were taken out and executed following a speech of

14     Radovan Karadzic on 29 September and not, as you say you were told in

15     your statement, taken for exchange.  Apart from what you claim

16     Dragan Nikolic said to you, do you know anything else about the fate of

17     the detainees that were in Susica camp at the end of September?

18        A.   I don't have any other knowledge.  That is what I was told at the

19     funeral on the 29th of September, when the funeral took place of my two

20     nephews who were killed at Rogosija and also there were these two sons of

21     my cousin.  I was late for the funeral.  As we were returning from the

22     funeral I --

23        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I'm asking about the fate of the people in Susica.

24     Now, some of the people identified as last seen in Susica camp have

25     subsequently been exhumed from mass graves including one in Ogradice.

Page 28735

 1     The people left in Susica camp at the end of September 1992, they were

 2     murdered, weren't they?

 3        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 4             MR. MacDONALD:  Your Honours, that concludes my

 5     cross-examination.  There's one other matter, I forgot to tender excerpt

 6     07021A.  I'd seek to tender that now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That was an excerpt of --

 8             MR. MacDONALD:  The CSCE mission to Susica camp, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that includes the cover page.

10             MR. MacDONALD:  It does, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 07021A will receive number P6937.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. MacDONALD:  I remembered that one on my own.  My colleagues

15     have reminded me of a second, the verdict in the case against

16     Predrag Bastah and Goran Viskovic.  The verdict is quite long,

17     Your Honours.  I believe it is about 80 pages.  I would seek to tender

18     the first few, but I'm happy to discuss with my colleagues.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I think you just put to the witness that they

20     were convicted.  You gave the date of the charges and the type of

21     charges, that was forced labour and a few things.  The witness couldn't

22     tell us anything further.  What's the purpose of now tendering that?  If

23     there's no dispute those people having been charged and having been

24     convicted and sentenced for those crimes, then what else would we -- are

25     we supposed to learn from it.

Page 28736

 1             MR. MacDONALD:  The witness confirmed that the two people

 2     convicted were guards at Susica camp, Your Honours.  There is some detail

 3     with regard to the crimes, and the Prosecution submits it is connected

 4     with his testimony about what took place and, in particular, the aspect

 5     of the -- the volume of crimes that took place at Susica.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I -- I would like to leave it to you to first

 7     engage in a conversation with Mr. Stojanovic to try to find out before we

 8     get a judgement on our desk, which, of course, then we would have to

 9     study in detail, where not much more is said about than what we heard

10     from the witness and from your questions.

11             MR. MacDONALD:  Very well, Your Honours.  Just for the record

12     that's 65 ter 31640.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And it will --

14             MR. MacDONALD:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be marked for identification for the time

16     being.

17             Madam Registrar, the number would be?

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the number would be P6938.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  Marked for

20     identification.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, any further questions for the witness?

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a few questions,

23     Your Honour, with your leave.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 28737

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Deuric, just a few questions.

 2             Where did you get this knowledge that some of the people who were

 3     in Susica asked voluntarily to go out and work outside the Susica

 4     facility?

 5        A.   Well, that's what they said themselves, those people who went out

 6     to work.  They said that they liked to go out and work.  They'd go out a

 7     bit.  It was mostly people like plumbers, masons, and other craftsmen.

 8     They went to work wherever necessary.

 9        Q.   Did they say that to you personally?

10        A.   I would hear them saying that as they were talking amongst

11     themselves and saying that to others.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One additional question, were they paid for that

14     work they performed?  Witness, could you tell us?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I don't know about, whether

16     they were paid.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Did you see at any point in time anyone who was in Susica not

21     receiving one of the meals that was brought into Susica?

22        A.   I didn't see anything like that.  I'm not sure of that.  I didn't

23     hear anyone say anything like that.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Stojanovic

25     please turn off his microphone when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

Page 28738

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I'm going to finish with the following question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're invited to switch off your

 4     microphone once the witness is answering your question.

 5             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   I'm going to finish with the following question.  Were you able

 7     to see whether medical staff visited the Susica facility at the time when

 8     you were there?

 9        A.   Yes, I had such an opportunity.  Perhaps twice I saw medical

10     staff coming in.

11        Q.   Mr. Deuric, on behalf of the Defence of General Mladic, I would

12     like to thank you for the effort that you made, and we have no further

13     questions for you.

14        A.   You're welcome.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Fluegge has one question for you or more, I do

16     not know yet.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To follow up on the last question of

19     Mr. Stojanovic, what kind of medical staff arrived at the camp?

20        A.   Are you asking me?

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, of course, I'm asking you.  What kind of

22     medical staff?  Doctors, nurses?  How many?  You said "perhaps twice."

23     Can you give us some more details.

24        A.   I was present twice when they arrived.  I think that some people

25     complained of some stomach trouble.  They examined them outside.  There

Page 28739

 1     was a doctor.  I didn't approach them.  I don't know what the results

 2     were.  A few of them were examined then.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How do you know?  How do you know that a few were

 4     examined then by this doctor?  You said you didn't approach them.

 5        A.   Well, I could see that, if I was 20 metres away or 30 metres

 6     away.  I wouldn't approach them, though.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did the medical examination take place outside of

 8     a building?  In the open?

 9        A.   At the entrance into the building.  In front of the entrance.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was the doctor alone?

11        A.   No.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who was with him?

13        A.   As far as I can remember, there were these two nurses there too.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means three people.  And that happened

15     twice.

16        A.   I think twice.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  How many prisoners were examined by this doctor?

18        A.   Well, I have no way of knowing.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You saw that, you told me just a minute ago, you

20     could see that 20 metres away.  How many patients?  How many prisoners as

21     patients were examined by the doctor?

22        A.   Well, several approached them.  I didn't pay attention to

23     count how many people were examined and how.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And how do you know why they were examined

25     because of trouble with the stomach?

Page 28740

 1        A.   That's what I heard from those -- those who were there, around.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What kind of people were around?

 3        A.   Those who were there present in the compound.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Who were they?  Guards, prisoners, staff, your

 5     colleagues?  Who?

 6        A.   Guards and prisoners alike.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And they told you what the reason for the medical

 8     examination was?

 9        A.   They were talking amongst themselves, and I know that two persons

10     died in the compound.  It's possible that's when the doctors came.  I

11     heard a medical panel established that they had died of natural causes

12     because of cardiac problems.  That was the talk that I heard.  I wasn't

13     interested.  I had my own work to take care of.  I also heard that there

14     were some people who had stomach trouble.  Whether it was the same panel,

15     whether it was then that the doctors came, I don't know.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Two short questions on the same matter.

18             Did you know the doctor?  Did you know who he was?

19        A.   No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Was he a local physician?

21        A.   I don't know.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If it would have been a local physician, would you

23     have known him?

24        A.   Probably.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You knew the doctors of Vlasenica, the general

Page 28741

 1     practitioners?

 2        A.   Some I knew; others I didn't.  I used to go to the health centre

 3     when I needed something.  But they changed very often, and I didn't know

 4     all of them.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 6             Any further questions, Mr. MacDonald?

 7             MR. MacDONALD:  No, thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

 9     thank you very much for coming to the place for the videolink and for

10     having answered all the questions that were put to you.  You are excused.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12                           [The witness withdrew via videolink]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, at the other side of the videolink,

14     we'll close the link, but apparently you do not hear me because you've

15     not -- you don't have your earphones on.

16             The videolink is closed.

17             Just for the parties to know that where in the English the word

18     "indisputable" was used when it was about the status of the detainees,

19     that there is likely a mistake there which will be most likely corrected

20     on the transcript.  Just for your information.

21             Then after the break, I'd like to start with reading a decision

22     and then I think we'd continue with the cross-examination of the witness

23     which we had to -- which had to wait since Thursday.

24             We'll take a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes past midday.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.02 p.m.

Page 28742

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.26 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we will resume the -- to hear the evidence of

 3     witness, there are two matters which I would like to briefly deal with.

 4             First, it is about videolinks and it's primarily addressing the

 5     Defence at this moment.  On the 18th of November of this year, the

 6     Chamber expressed its concern with recent videolink motions filed by the

 7     Defence which did not provide adequate evidence of the alleged inability

 8     or unwillingness of witnesses to travel to The Hague.  In relation to the

 9     videolink motion filed on the 3rd of November, the Chamber notes again a

10     lack of sufficient current supporting medical documentation.  The Chamber

11     therefore instructs the Defence to supplement the motion no later than

12     the 28th of November, 2014, and the supplement should consist of a

13     witness declaration relating to his position vis-à-vis travelling to

14     The Hague and/or recent medical documentation substantiating the

15     witness's inability to travel.

16             The other matter deals with associated exhibits related to

17     Vladimir Radojcic.

18             The Chamber now takes this opportunity to deliver its decision on

19     the tendering of associated exhibits with Witness Vladimir Radojcic.  On

20     the 2nd of July of this year, the Defence requested that it be permitted

21     to make written submissions regarding the tendering of a large number of

22     associated exhibits for Witness Radojcic.  Pursuant to the Chamber's

23     instructions of the 15th of July, the Defence filed its submissions on

24     the 17th of July and tendered 51 associated exhibits.  The Chamber notes

25     that this represents a reduction, although limited, from the original

Page 28743

 1     number of 61 associated exhibits.

 2             On the 25th of July, the Prosecution filed a response, noting

 3     that the proposed associated exhibit bearing Rule 65 ter number 18618 had

 4     already been admitted into evidence as Exhibit P6617 and objecting to the

 5     admission of 14 of the 50 remaining associated exhibits predominantly on

 6     the basis that, and I quote:

 7             "These documents possess marginal relevance and are minimally

 8     probative, if at all, to material issues in this case."

 9             More specifically, the Prosecution is opposing the admission of

10     11 of these 14 tendered associated exhibits on the basis that they

11     constitute inadmissible tu quoque evidence.  The Prosecution further

12     noted that for document bearing Rule 65 ter 1D2153, withdrawn as an

13     associated exhibit by the Defence, a revised translation was made

14     available to the Defence, which the Prosecution would like to tender,

15     together with the original translation.

16             The Chamber has reviewed the 14 proposed associated exhibits

17     objected to by the Prosecution and understands that these documents are

18     reports signed by Witness Radojcic, commander of the 1st Infantry Ilidza

19     Brigade, to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps Command, and largely relate to

20     either combat activities in the witness's zone of responsibility and/or

21     UNPROFOR activities in Sarajevo during the indictment period.

22             In relation to whether 11 of the 14 exhibits constitute tu quoque

23     evidence, the Chamber reminds the Prosecution of its oral decision of the

24     22nd of July, 2014, in which it advised the parties that, generally, the

25     Chamber does not consider evidence to be tu quoque solely on the basis of

Page 28744

 1     its subject matter.  This can be found at transcript page 24.510.  The

 2     Chamber therefore finds that these 14 proposed associated exhibits are

 3     not deprived of relevance or probative value and, accordingly, will now

 4     address whether they, along with the other proposed associated exhibits

 5     tendered by the Defence, meet the admission criteria for associated

 6     exhibits.

 7             The Chamber recalls that the case law with regard to the

 8     admission of associated exhibits pursuant to Rules 92 bis, 92 ter,

 9     92 quater establishes that documents can be admitted if they form an

10     inseparable and indispensable part of the witness's written testimony.

11     In order to satisfy this test, the tendering party must demonstrate that

12     the witness's evidence, with references to the proposed associated

13     exhibits, would be incomprehensible or of less probative value without

14     the admission of those associated exhibits into evidence.  The Chamber

15     elaborated on its interpretation of the case law with regard to the

16     admission of associated exhibits on the 9th of July, 2012, at transcript

17     pages 530 to 531; in its written decision of the 23rd of July, 2012; on

18     the 22nd of November, 2012, at transcript pages 5601 to 5603; and in its

19     written decision of the 7th of February, 2013.

20             Following this, the Chamber finds some of the underlying

21     documents, once admitted into evidence, ensure that Witness Radojcic's

22     evidence is not incomprehensible or of less probative value.  The Chamber

23     therefore hereby admits documents bearing Rule 65 ter numbers 1D2030,

24     1D2087, 1D2130, 1D2131, 1D2134, 1D2146, 1D2148, 1D2150 up to and

25     including 1D2152, 1D2155 up to and including 1D2158, 1D2161, 1D2162,

Page 28745

 1     1D2164 up to and including 1D2166, 1D2168, 1D2171, 1D2173, 1D2175,

 2     1D2177, 1D2179, and 1D2180 into evidence as associated exhibits to the

 3     written statement of Witness Radojcic.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that there may be some confusion about one of

 6     the numbers I just mentioned, where the transcript at this moment reads

 7     twice 1D2162.  I intended to say that the Chamber admitted 1D2161 and

 8     1D2162 into evidence.

 9             Madam Registrar is invited to assign exhibit numbers by way of

10     internal memorandum.

11             The Chamber notes that in various instances the proposed

12     associated exhibits referred to in the statement does not correspond with

13     the comment made by Witness Radojcic in his statement.

14             The Chamber finds that the remaining underlying documents do not

15     form an inseparable and indispensable part of Witness Radojcic's written

16     statement and consequently the Chamber hereby denies their admission into

17     evidence without prejudice.

18             With regard to document bearing 65 ter number 1D2153, the Chamber

19     notes that it was withdrawn as an associated exhibit by the Defence and

20     is now tendered by the Prosecution.

21             The Chamber is wondering - and I'm asking the Defence - whether

22     the Defence does object or does not object to the tendering of this

23     document by the Prosecution.  It was on your list, Mr. Lukic.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, as you know, Witness Radojcic was led by

25     my colleague Ivetic and he is not with us today, so if you can give us

Page 28746

 1     one or two days to consult with him.  I really don't know from the top of

 2     my head now.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, whatever your position will be,

 4     according to the Prosecution, the Defence is also in receipt now of a

 5     revised translation of this document from CLSS.  I take it that

 6     Mr. Ivetic will then also confirm that he has received that.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Hopefully.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would suggest that the Defence will upload

 9     that revised translation and inform the Registry about it, and that once

10     this is done, that we'll decide on either MFI or admit the document

11     tendered by the Prosecution although uploaded by the Defence into

12     evidence.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the Chamber also notes that the original B/C/S

15     versions of documents bearing 65 ter numbers 1D2149 and 1D2172 appear to

16     be the same document although their translations differ, and the Chamber

17     wonders whether the Defence could advise the Chamber which original and

18     which translation is to be tendered and to do that no later than the

19     28th of November.

20             This concludes the Chamber's decision on the request for

21     admission of associated exhibits to Witness Radojcic's statement.

22             Then, if the Defence is ready to call its next witness -- not to

23     call its next witness, but to continue the -- that the witness be -- that

24     the Defence witness will be escorted in the courtroom in order to allow

25     the Prosecution to continue its cross-examination.  Because that's where

Page 28747

 1     we are, as far as Mr. Barasin is concerned.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Barasin.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You had to wait for a while.  Apologies for that.

 6     But we had a witness to be heard through videolink.

 7             Before we continue, I'd like to remind you that you're still

 8     bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

 9     testimony, and Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           WITNESS:  OSTOJA BARASIN [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18             MR. TRALDI:  And could we please have 65 ter 1D02034.

19        Q.   As it comes up, sir, one of the documents you discuss in your

20     statement is Exhibit D676, an excerpt from the book:  "To forget about a

21     crime is also a crime."  Did you read this book in preparation for your

22     testimony?

23        A.   No, I haven't read this book and I did not refer to it.  I

24     referred to the book called:  "Cunning Strategy" by Sefer Halilovic.

25     Although there are some similarities.  I haven't read this book.  I just

Page 28748

 1     leafed through it, but there are some similarities.  The book I read is

 2     "Cunning Strategy" by Sefer Halilovic.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have perhaps paragraph 18 of the witness's

 4     statement on the screen, and that's D790.

 5             And, Your Honours, because it's just a brief reference by 65 ter

 6     number, perhaps -- I'll inquire only briefly.

 7        Q.   Here, at the end of paragraph 18, we see a reference to

 8     65 ter 1D02034b which the Defence has informed us is an excerpt from the

 9     book we saw on our screen a moment ago.  Is it your evidence now that you

10     did not consider that book or review that book in preparing your

11     statement?

12        A.   Not this book.  I said already I read "The Cunning Strategy" by

13     Sefer Halilovic.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- I noticed, Mr. Traldi, that we have a

15     b number, whereas on the transcript you're quoted to have said "1D02034."

16     We apparently have a b number here and when I try find to that b number I

17     don't find it at this moment.  And that's, of course, the Defence which

18     should clarify this issue.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the list of associated exhibits provided by

20     the Defence, it is a small a number instead of a small b number.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, could you explain to us the reference to

22     65 ter 1D02034a in your list of associated exhibits and to the reference

23     to the same number but then 1D02034b in the witness's statement.  What

24     did you show the witness?  What was shown to him?  And is -- are both

25     uploaded into e-court?

Page 28749

 1             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I know that I received some kind of

 2     explanation from my case manager, and I have to check it with him again.

 3     Because --

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  As you check, Mr. Lukic, do note that the

 5     description of 65 ter 1D02034a is given as:  "To forget about a crime is

 6     also a crime."

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And a, as a matter of fact, is indeed an excerpt of

 8     that book in e-court.  At least that's the title.  And I think from what

 9     I understand from the B/C/S is that, indeed, the title gives a -- the

10     word "zlocin," I think it is, twice, which makes me believe that the

11     title in English is indeed the title as we find it in e-court in the

12     original document.

13             MR. LUKIC:  I would definitely go with that title.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, then, of course, that raises some issues

15     because you are the one, Mr. Lukic, you are -- is reported as having

16     interviewed the witness.  Now what did you show him?

17             MR. LUKIC:  He didn't read a book but I showed him some excerpts.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  From this book?

19             MR. LUKIC:  From this book, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you are telling us that you read another

21     book.  Was -- were excerpts of this book shown to you by the Defence?

22     That is --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  The Defence showed me

24     excerpts but I didn't read the whole book.  I just saw the introduction

25     where he describes the establishment of the Patriotic League.  I mean the

Page 28750

 1     authors of this book.  And I saw some information about what happened in

 2     Sanski Most, the ethnic structure of the 1st Assembly in Sanski Most.  I

 3     saw that but I haven't read the whole book, only excerpts.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  And your comment is about --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those parts of the book were shown

 6     to me by the Defence counsel.  But I didn't see the book itself.  Only

 7     the excerpts.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could have

11     65 ter 1D02034 back on our screens.  I'll be looking for page 379 in the

12     B/C/S only.  This page has not yet been translated.

13        Q.   Now, directing your attention to point II, the title of that

14     section that we see in the table of contents is:  "Serb aggression on

15     Sanski Most"; right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And turning to page 380, the next page, the next section we see

18     as a title -- the title is:  "Zlocini," which is "crimes"; right?

19        A.   That's written, yes.

20        Q.   Were you aware that this book discussed crimes which were

21     committed against non-Serbs in many areas of Sanski Most municipality?

22        A.   I haven't seen this book.  I just saw excerpts from it

23     immediately before my arrival here.

24        Q.   Under this section, we see references to crimes committed in

25     several specific places.  I'm going to ask you, first, about your time in

Page 28751

 1     the 1st Krajina Corps information service.  At the time that you were

 2     serving in the 1st Krajina Corps information service, were you aware

 3     crimes had been committed against non-Serbs in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo as

 4     we see the second subsection under crimes?

 5        A.   No.  I was not in that part of the theatre at the time of the

 6     combat activity.  That means in 1993.  My activity was mainly in

 7     Posavina, Bosanski Samac, Modrica, et cetera.  I wasn't in this part of

 8     the front line.

 9        Q.   Do you know today as you sit there, that crimes - including the

10     massacres of about 25 unarmed Bosnian Muslims in Vrhpolje - occurred in

11     Sanski Most municipality?

12        A.   I saw it from various articles and the testimony of some Bosniaks

13     and politicians, but I never saw myself any documents, nor do I have any

14     direct knowledge because I wasn't there in that area at the time.  I know

15     most of what I know from the media and from the excerpts of this book.

16        Q.   And at the bottom of the page we see a list of locations, each of

17     which start with "logor."  Those are camps; right?

18        A.   Yes, that's written here.

19        Q.   Were you aware of the existence of the camps that we see here

20     during your time in the 1st Krajina Corps?

21        A.   I did not hear about this camp and I didn't see them.

22        Q.   And as you sit here today, are you aware that non-Serbs in

23     Sanski Most were detained in, for instance, a camp called Betonirka?

24        A.   [No interpretation].

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't receive interpretation.

Page 28752

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't see, I didn't hear about

 2     this camp.  However, the concept of camp in our language at the time of

 3     the past war was sometimes used when a group of people would travel and

 4     then spend some time in a particular area for a while.  I don't think we

 5     had traditional camps.  What happened in Manjaca at the beginning of the

 6     war could perhaps be called camp.  Otherwise, there were no real camps.

 7     And in my understanding of the word "camp," I could hardly apply it here.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   Sir, I have --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- you are giving quite general statements about

11     the meaning of the word "camp," where you were asked whether you know

12     anything about a camp at Betonirka.  Now forget about the word "camp."

13     Do you know of any --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, if would you say that instead of

16     commenting on what the word "camp" means, because whether a camp means A,

17     B, or C, you don't know anything about Betonirka.  So if you say there

18     was no camp there, you wouldn't know because you don't know about what

19     was there in Betonirka.

20             So would you please refrain from giving these general statements

21     and your conclusions about what a camp is and that there were no camps if

22     you have no knowledge about what was there in Betonirka.

23             Would you please keep that in mind.

24             Mr. Traldi.

25             MR. TRALDI:

Page 28753

 1        Q.   So, sir, just to be completely clear, you don't have any idea

 2     whether the people in Betonirka or any of these facilities had simply

 3     "travelled and then spent some time there," because you don't know

 4     anything about these facilities; right?

 5        A.   At the time of combat, I was never in that part of the theatre of

 6     war, and I don't know any details.

 7        Q.   Now, you said a moment ago that you didn't think that "we had

 8     traditional camps."

 9             Who did you mean by "we"?

10        A.   The Army of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   And I understand you excluded Manjaca from that categorisation.

12     Now the Chamber has received evidence about a number of other camps; for

13     instance, Batkovic.  Were you ever there?

14        A.   No, I heard about it, but I haven't been there.

15        Q.   And the Chamber has received evidence about camps operated in

16     Prijedor municipality by the Bosnian Serbs, the police under the

17     military.  Were you ever at any of those camps?

18        A.   Only once.  It was called the collection camp in Trnopolje which

19     held non-Serbs in some sort of free arrangement because, in Prijedor, at

20     that time, there were attacks during those days against non-Serbs and the

21     police organised that centre in order to be able to protect the non-Serb

22     population from individual cases of violence.  I know that it was an

23     open-type facility where people could move around freely.

24        Q.   I have a couple of follow-up questions on that as well.

25             First, what month and what year were you there?

Page 28754

 1        A.   1992.  I think it was in July or August.  I'm not quite sure

 2     about the month, but it was early in the second half of 1992.

 3        Q.   Now, you said -- I noticed you said in your evidence that the

 4     police had organised it.  The Chamber has received evidence that the

 5     commander was a man named Slobodan Kuruzovic, who was a member of the

 6     Prijedor TO and then placed under the control of the Prijedor garrison of

 7     the VRS.  So I'd put to you that you don't have any personal knowledge as

 8     to who organised the camp or who was responsible for it, do you?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, if my learned friend could be just more

10     specific which facility.  Maybe it's confusing to --

11             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we are talking about Trnopolje, isn't it.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Though I'm happy to restate the question more

14     specifically if Mr. Lukic would prefer.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If it is about Trnopolje, then we could read

16     the question again.  Whether you have any personal knowledge as to who

17     organised Trnopolje camp or facility and who was responsible for it, do

18     you have any personal knowledge of it?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not precisely but I know I had been

20     there.  There were members of the police and the army.  I know

21     Mr. Kuruzovic was in charge.  But at the time both members of the army

22     and the police acted jointly to enforce law and order in Prijedor.  In

23     peacekeeping in Prijedor.

24             I was not there to inspect the camp, if I can add this.  I was

25     the guide for a group of foreign representatives who wanted to see the --

Page 28755

 1     the camp.  I worked at the press centre, and I escorted foreign

 2     journalists.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  For how long were you in Trnopolje camp or in

 4     Trnopolje?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One day, several hours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What do you mean by "several hours"?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not more than two and a half hours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir, I noticed in your last answer that you mentioned that

11     members of both the police and the army were there and that you were

12     aware Mr. Kuruzovic was in charge.  In your first answer, you mentioned

13     only the police.  Now, are you aware that General Mladic is charged,

14     among other things, with crimes that took place against non-Serb

15     civilians in Trnopolje camp?

16        A.   To the best of my knowledge, nobody was harmed or killed in

17     Trnopolje.  That's the information I have.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question.  The question was whether

19     you are aware that Mr. Mladic is charged with, among other things, crimes

20     that took place against non-Serb civilians in Trnopolje camp.  So whether

21     he was charged with that.  Whether it happened or not is a different

22     matter.  Are you aware with him being charged with such crimes committed

23     in Trnopolje?

24             I see you're nodding yes.  Could you please --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I understand.  I didn't

Page 28756

 1     understand the question at first.  I did not know he was charged in

 2     connection with that camp as well.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  I'm done with this document.

 5        Q.   Sir, we left off on Thursday discussing "Krajiski Vojnik" and --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  If you move on to another one.

 7             Do I understand your testimony well that people were free to go

 8     to Trnopolje and went there on their own free will?  Is that how I have

 9     to understand your testimony?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how it was presented both to

11     me and to the foreign reporters.  The people who were there provided that

12     information to me and the foreign journalists.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  The people who are there are who exactly?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the camp.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I understand but at the camp you have

16     prisoners, you have the management of the camp.  Did Mr. Kuruzovic say

17     something about it or ...

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  It was said to the

19     journalists and that was confirmed by the people there, that they were

20     not prisoners of war, nor were they brought there by force.  They were

21     instead brought there to be protected from the violence that could happen

22     to them in the town.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the only source of knowledge you have?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 28757

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But again you said:  "It was said to the

 2     journalists and it was confirmed by the people there ..."

 3             Which people?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm talking about the

 5     people who spoke to me and the foreign journalists.  The non-Serbs who

 6     were there in Trnopolje.  It was the yard of a schoolhouse.  There were

 7     no other attributes of a traditional camp.  It was just an area protected

 8     by the police and the army.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Exactly in relation to police and army, this

10     question was put to you.  Who provided you with this information?  Who

11     else -- were they the police and army members or the people who were held

12     there?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was told by people who worked as

14     security in the camp and the people who stayed at the camp.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  If I might just ask a slightly different question

17     on the same subject, sir.  You indicated that these people were there

18     voluntarily and they were free to move in and out as they pleased; is

19     that correct?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  While you were there for the two and a half hours,

22     did you observe any people moving in and out freely of the camp?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  And if you allow me,

24     Your Honours, I would like to add one more thing.  The people to whom I

25     spoke to at the camp were talking to me without the presence of --

Page 28758

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you add on what you want to add.  You

 2     say -- I just want to understand exactly what you said.  You saw these

 3     people moving in and out of the camp and going away for good and nobody

 4     stopping them?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They went in and out.  I don't know

 8     within which period of time, but I know they were going in and out.

 9             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say "I don't know within which period of

11     time," what do you mean exactly by that?  It's not entirely clear.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman asked me if they

13     would leave permanently.  I don't know if they would go away and not come

14     back because any stay there long enough.  But I was able to see that they

15     could go out and come back freely.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And when you say "the gentleman," you're referring

17     to the media that you guided around?

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I mean the Judge.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say you saw them leaving but whether they

21     would stay out for a longer period of time or a shorter period of time,

22     you wouldn't know.

23             How far could you see them?  I mean, they were walking out or

24     they were driving out?  What did you see?  What did you observe?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They walked out.  There were no

Page 28759

 1     vehicles anywhere around, and I did not observe their further movement.

 2     Because it was not the purpose of my visit to observe them.  It was to

 3     talk to these people.  And I also wanted to tell you, Your Honours, that

 4     while we spoke to the non-Serb people in the camp, there were no guards

 5     or anyone else present who could tamper with our conversation.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Were they carrying any luggage when they moved out?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.  I didn't see.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And you could follow them at what distance?

 9     100 metres, 200 metres?  Did you follow them in any other way?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they moved in all directions.

11     I didn't look particularly.  It wasn't the purpose of my visit, but I

12     could see they were going out and going in all directions.  And some

13     people were going out.  Others were coming in.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Going out and in what exactly?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a yard, the yard of a

16     school, and it had a fence around it.  They slept in the schoolhouse,

17     those who spent one or more days there.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you say you saw them leaving the yard of

19     the schoolhouse which was fenced in.  And you saw them coming back within

20     that fence without any further details about how long they went away, how

21     far they went away.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Why they went away?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 28760

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. TRALDI:

 3        Q.   Sir, the Chamber has received evidence, documents from the

 4     1st Krajina Corps - and I'll refer, for instance, to P2875 and P3708 -

 5     that referred to arrested people being placed in Trnopolje and referred

 6     to it as a prison camp.

 7             Now, with the exception of two and a half hours that you spent

 8     there with foreign journalists, you have no knowledge of the conditions

 9     there; right?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   With that, I will turn back to "Krajiski Vojnik."

12             MR. TRALDI:  And could 65 ter 11822 be brought to our screen.

13             Now, this is another article published in "Krajiski Vojnik," and

14     again, it's an interview with President Karadzic.  If we could turn to

15     page 5 in the English and in the B/C/S, the far right of the image on the

16     screen, just before the last bolded question, we read:

17             "Let me say this also.  This leadership thinks that we should

18     unite with Serbia, not Yugoslavia.  We think that it is necessary for

19     Krajina to unite with us.  What is being done at present is because of

20     the international environment.  First steps will be made in direction

21     where there is the least resistance.  No one can stop our unification

22     with Serbia, and then with God's help, when Serbia breaks out to Una, it

23     will be much easier for Krajina to fulfil its goal."

24        Q.   So, again, we have "Krajiski Vojnik" publishing an interview with

25     President Karadzic where he is advocating unification with Serbia; right?

Page 28761

 1        A.   Yes.  "Krajiski Vojnik" took over this interview from a different

 2     newspaper "Glas Srpska."  That is to say, this is not part of our own

 3     editorial work.  This was just taken from another paper.

 4        Q.   And Una there is a reference to the Una river; correct?

 5        A.   Correct, yes.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I'd tender 65 ter 11822.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 11822 receives number P6939.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Can 65 ter 05927 be brought to the screen.

11        Q.   While that comes up, like the 1st Krajina Corps, the VRS

12     Main Staff had a sector for legal, moral, and religious affairs; right?

13        A.   That's right.

14        Q.   That sector was under General Gvero; right?

15        A.   Head of this organ in the Main Staff.

16        Q.   Yes.  General Gvero was the head of this organ in the Main Staff;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the Main Staff sector for legal, moral, and religious affairs

20     published a magazine called "Srpska Vojska"; right?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   Was "Srpska Vojska" distributed to 1 KK units like

23     "Krajiski Vojnik"?

24        A.   Yes.  This was the single paper of the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   Now, this is an article by General Gvero for "Srpska Vojska"

Page 28762

 1     called:  "Silk cord for Alija."  Are you familiar with this article?

 2        A.   No, I haven't seen it.

 3        Q.   Now, looking at the third paragraph in both languages,

 4     General Gvero is giving his position on the cause of the war.  And he

 5     says:

 6             "The Serbs had to fight or disappear ..."

 7             And then says:

 8             "It was a question of fighting or assent by the survivors to the

 9     (now) vengeful, sinister Asiatic, Turkish oppression and constant threats

10     by Ustasha knives and in Ustasha pits."

11             Now, this rhetoric as published in "Srpska Vojska" is being

12     distributed throughout the 1st Krajina Corps units; right?

13        A.   That's right.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the words "that they would be killed,"

15     who added that?  Is that interpretation by anyone?  It seems not to be a

16     linguistical explanation.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I'm told that it's been added by the translators of

18     the document.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But not in the original document.  It's just an

20     interpretive remark which is not based purely on language but on apparent

21     understanding of the translators of what those threats would be about.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  And the slashes are intended to indicate, as I

23     understand it, to the reader that it is an interpretive step.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.  But why do we find that before us?

25     Why is it not removed?  I mean, we have had the issue about what "balija"

Page 28763

 1     means or what "Turks" means, now we have got an interpretation.  But I

 2     think that it doesn't fall within the scope of those explanations, is it?

 3             MR. TRALDI:  We're happy to have it revised, if the Chamber

 4     prefers.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Not only that, but it shouldn't have been

 6     there.  That's the first thing that -- unless there's a better

 7     explanation than you've given until now.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   I'll ask a couple of follow-up questions about that language,

11     actually.

12             What does the term "Ustasha knives" refer to?

13        A.   Your Honours, this is a historical dimension of this

14     interpretation.  It pertains to the Second World War when many Serbs were

15     killed by the Ustasha knife.  That is the symbol of the suffering of

16     Serbs in Jasenovac and other Ustasha camps during the Second World War.

17             What I have to say here primarily pertains to the north of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, where an enormous number of Serbs were killed in

19     Ustasha camps mostly but also during the offensive at Mount Kozara.  So

20     that is this historical memory of the suffering of the Serb people in the

21     First and Second World Wars.

22        Q.   And how do you understand "Ustasha pits"?

23        A.   During the Second World War, a large number of Serbs were killed

24     in the Karst regions where there are these natural pits, abysses.  I

25     don't know how to explain this.  Serbs were thrown into these pits alive

Page 28764

 1     and would die in them.  That happened a great deal in Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   Sir, is it correct, then, that both the references to "Ustasha

 3     knives" and to "Ustasha pits" in your understanding refer to ways in

 4     which Serbs had been killed?

 5        A.   Yes.  This text here actually reminds us of this historic

 6     dimension of this suffering and it is a plea for it not happen again, not

 7     to have this kind of genocide repeated or this kind of suffering

 8     repeated.  This struggle was supposed to prevent that.

 9        Q.   Now, the term "Turkish" used above, just above the word

10     "Ustasha," that's used in Bosnia as a derogatory term for Bosnian

11     Muslims; right?

12        A.   No, no.  No.  That's not right.  When it says here "the vengeful,

13     sinister Asiatic, Turkish oppression," that is the Ottoman occupation in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina, when children were taken, Serb children, and then

15     trained to become Janissaries.  So this is a reminder of the Ottoman

16     rule in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17        Q.   Sir, there was no Ottoman army or Ottoman presence in

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993 when this article was published, was there?

19        A.   No, you're right.  That was not there then.  But what is stated

20     here is that this struggle, this war that started in Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     in 1992, in some of its manifestations and forms is reminiscent of that

22     period of Ottoman rule.  So that is the sense of it.

23        Q.   I put to you that it's clear that when General Gvero suggests

24     there's a risk of Turkish oppression, he is clearly not speaking of

25     Bosnia being reconquered by Turkey, he is clearly speaking of the

Page 28765

 1     potential of a Bosnian Muslim government in some of these areas.  That's

 2     true, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I will have a few more questions on

 5     this document.  I see that we're at the time for the break.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  We are.  Could the witness be escorted out of the

 7     courtroom and we'll take a break of 20 minutes, and we'll resume at a

 8     quarter to 2.00.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 1.27 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.47 p.m.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have page 2 of this document in the

15     English, in the second paragraph, and the fifth paragraph of the document

16     in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Now, looking at the second sentence, we read -- I'm only

18     interested in the first part of the sentence for the moment:

19             "The Croats and Muslims in these parts, former Serbs ..."

20             "Srpska Vojska" published the suggestion that Bosnian Muslims and

21     Croats were former Serbs who had been converted; right?

22        A.   Excuse me.  It's not that they were converted of their own will.

23     This was done forcibly.  They were forcibly converted to Islam, for

24     instance, during the Ottoman rule.

25        Q.   One term used for people like that is "poturice"; right?

Page 28766

 1        A.   Well, sometimes such a term is used, yes.

 2        Q.   And that's commonly understood as a derogatory term, right, in

 3     Bosnia?

 4        A.   In principle, yes.  Because Serbs were forcibly converted to

 5     Islam or to Catholicism.  This process went on during this war as well,

 6     from 1991 to 1995.  In order to survive.

 7        Q.   Later in this paragraph, we read about Muslims and Croats:

 8             "Extreme uncivilised, often savage behaviour towards Serb and

 9     their fanatic hatred of the Serbs, a hatred so strong that it is aimed at

10     the extermination of Serbs by all methods and most often the most bestial

11     ones."

12             This is propaganda; right?

13        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree that it's propaganda only.  Because I have

14     to remind you, if Their Honours allow me, that already at the end of the

15     1980s there was this anti-Serb hysteria that started and demands for the

16     breakup of Yugoslavia.  The beginning of the war in Croatia and the

17     beginning of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was precisely marked with this

18     attack on the Serb population.  I dealt with these crimes in the film

19     "Genocide," and in a way this led to fear instilled among the Serb people

20     that World Wars I and II would be repeated.  And then there was this

21     defence to prevent this genocide or these genocides.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

23     be asked to speak more slowly.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  You're invited to speak more slowly.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 28767

 1             MR. TRALDI:

 2        Q.   You said this led to a fear.  Also to anger; right?

 3        A.   No, not anger.  Not rage.  There is historical memory that is

 4     still alive.  Let me tell you, my father took part in the previous war

 5     and then I took part in this one, so practically every generation is

 6     forced to wage war.  And then there is this fear of constant clashes

 7     among peoples and ethnic groups, and this led not to rage but to calls

 8     for organising the people in order to prevent what had already happened

 9     in history.

10        Q.   You say:  "There is historical memory that's still alive."  These

11     are vivid and painful historical memories; right?

12        A.   That's right, that's right.

13        Q.   And General Gvero is calling them to mind clearly in this

14     article; right?

15        A.   No, he is reminding people of that.

16        Q.   The people he's reminding are all of the soldiers in 1st Krajina

17     Corps units to whom this was distributed, right?  Among others?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Would "Srpska Vojska" also have been distributed to the units in

20     the other VRS corps?

21        A.   That was the paper of the Army of Republika Srpska, and it was

22     distributed to all troops of Republika Srpska throughout the territory of

23     Republika Srpska.  It was only "Krajiski Vojnik" that was distributed

24     only within the 1st Krajina Corps.  That was our very own paper.

25        Q.   And the article's title:  "A silk cord for Alija," is a reference

Page 28768

 1     to what General Gvero describes as a medieval assassination technique for

 2     Turkish leaders; right?

 3        A.   That's right.  He used the metaphor here; namely that Alija's

 4     policy would lead to that.  That was the train of thought of

 5     General Gvero.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honour, I tender 65 ter 05927 as the next

 7     public Prosecution Exhibit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 05927 receives number P6940.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, that completes my cross-examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

13             Mr. Lukic, could you also give us a time indication.

14             MR. LUKIC:  I will try to finish today.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's appreciated.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Once again, good afternoon.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask for P2874 in

20     e-court, please.

21        Q.   In relation to this document, it was put to you that the Serbs

22     asked to be separated from the other two peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23     This is the 21st of May, 1992.  In the 1st Corps, in your 1st Corps, in

24     the territory where it was deployed and from where it was manned, at that

25     time, had war operations already started?

Page 28769

 1        A.   On the 21st of May ...

 2        Q.   1992.

 3        A.   1992.  Yes, there were combat operations in the territory of the

 4     corps.

 5        Q.   In your work, did you come across documentation from 1991 about

 6     the establishment of Herceg-Bosna, for instance?

 7        A.   Yes.  I did see some documents, some information.  The process of

 8     the establishment of Herceg-Bosna started already in June 1991 when the

 9     top people from Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the Croat community there, met

10     with Tudjman in Zagreb.  And then other meetings follow --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not catch the meetings at

12     all.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that this was the 8th of

14     April --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, because you're speaking so fast --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- could you please resume from where you said:

18     "And then other meetings follow ..."

19             Could you resume from there.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the meeting between the Croat

21     leaders from Bosnia-Herzegovina and Franjo Tudjman in June 1991, a number

22     of other meetings followed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  One of them is the

23     conference in Grude which resulted in the establishment of the Croatian

24     Defence Council, the HVO, in April 1992.  That is what was proclaimed in

25     public by the Croat leadership in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that in this way

Page 28770

 1     they wished to round off the historic borders of the Croatian people.

 2     That is to say, together with Croatia.

 3             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I do not see this here.  What did you say, what was the

 5     intention?  What, with Croatia?

 6        A.   To have part of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina where the

 7     Croats live, as they say, that's where they're historically live, they

 8     want to unite in a joint state, Croatia.

 9        Q.   I heard that, unite, but it was not reflected in the record, so

10     that's why I asked you once again.

11             And the objective, the creation of the HVO and the Croatian

12     Herceg-Bosna what was the objective?  Was it to separate from the other

13     two peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14        A.   Yes.  On the basis of everything I've seen and heard, that was

15     the objective.

16        Q.   Before this 21st of May, 1992, do you know, did you receive any

17     information in the course of your work that there were attacks against

18     facilities of the JNA, members of the JNA, even before the Army of

19     Republika Srpska was established?

20        A.   Did you mean 1991 or 1992?

21        Q.   1992.

22        A.   Yes, 1992.  Already when the war started in Croatia in 1991, but

23     intensively in the second half of 1991 and the beginning of 1992, there

24     were intensive attacks against the members of the JNA and the facilities

25     of the JNA.  I have to remind you after this meeting on the

Page 28771

 1     28th of February in Mehurici - those were the Muslim leaders - they

 2     proclaimed that this illegal Patriotic League was established at the

 3     time.  And at that moment it had nine regional staffs for

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, 103 municipal staffs, and they also had this staff

 5     for Sandzak, that is to say, Serbia and Montenegro, that is to say, the

 6     territory where the Muslim population lived.  And in that proclamation

 7     they said that they already have about 120.000 persons that they can put

 8     in the function of war.

 9             As for the defence of the Muslim people, there was this

10     directive -- I mean, that was in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And then in that

11     directive they expressed their plan as to how the Muslim population would

12     be moved out in planned fashion, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in parts of its

13     territory.  Likewise, instructions were provided for attacks against JNA

14     facilities and attempts would be made to prevent them from leaving the

15     territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16             I mean, let me just add another thing in that sense.  There were

17     these well-known attacks against the Tuzla column in May and the attack

18     in Sarajevo in Dobrovoljacka Street.  These are just drastic examples.

19     There were many attacks in Western Herzegovina as well.

20        Q.   What was the ethnicity of the members of the Patriotic League,

21     the Green Berets?

22        A.   Muslim.  That's what it said there.  Truth to tell, later on,

23     when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established out of the

24     Patriotic League, then there were also members of other ethnicities

25     there.  But, of course, a small number.

Page 28772

 1        Q.   Do you know whether anything was offered to the Muslims to stay

 2     on living with the Serbs in a rump Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  And, likewise, what was sought was not to have this

 4     well-known referendum take place, the one that was held on the

 5     1st of March in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Serbs did not take part in that, but

 6     the call was that we should live together in a joint state, in one state.

 7     However, this anti-Serb hysteria that started in the 1980s, it continued,

 8     and the Badinter Commission ruled as it did and the referendum was held

 9     against the will of the Serb people.

10        Q.   Do you know anything about the Belgrade Initiative?

11        A.   Well, I couldn't exactly say.

12        Q.   All right.  What about the Skopje Agreement?  Do you know

13     anything about that?

14        A.   Yes, the Skopje Agreement was concluded in the first half of May,

15     I cannot remember the exact date.  And this was the agreement between

16     Blagoje Adzic, the then chief of General Staff of the JNA, and

17     President Alija Izetbegovic.  And it implied the peaceful withdrawal of

18     JNA units from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  However, this agreement failed

19     already when Alija Izetbegovic returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina, when this

20     well-known attack against members of the JNA took place as they were

21     withdrawing from Dobrovoljacka.  So, in fact, the agreement was rejected

22     in that way by the Muslim people.

23        Q.   Were Serbs in favour of a status quo or were they in favour of

24     some changes?

25        A.   We or, rather, the Serbs then advocated talks and seeking a

Page 28773

 1     common solution.  It was repeated many times that it was better to

 2     negotiate for years than wage war for a few days.  I think that this was

 3     a constant call to the Muslim side and the Croat side to sit at the

 4     negotiating table and try to prevent a war.  No one had forecast a war

 5     but what was constantly being said that it was much better to negotiate

 6     than to wage war.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now mentally go back to Trnopolje briefly.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, may I encourage you to ask questions

 9     which arise from cross-examination.  That's the first one.  And,

10     second -- and moving to Trnopolje, there's a fair chance that you will.

11     And, second, that you ask questions about matters which are in dispute,

12     because I wasn't aware that there was any dispute about the Green Berets

13     being a predominantly or exclusively Muslim organisation, but I may have

14     missed the position of the Prosecution that it was a multi-ethnic

15     organisation.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, it was proposed by the Prosecution that

17     that was Serbs who wanted separation from another two nations.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm -- Mr. Lukic, I'm just -- the last example was

19     about the Green Berets being Muslim.  Is there any dispute about that?

20             MR. LUKIC:  That was to show who was for the separation.

21     Exactly.  It is in blunt contradiction with what the Prosecution claims,

22     trying to establish through this witness.  And I think that we have full

23     right to challenge it --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's move on.  Apparently you disagree with my

25     observations.  You will have another couple of minutes.

Page 28774

 1             Mr. Traldi, as matters stand now, how much time would you need?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Certainly not much.  Probably none at all, but I'll

 3     evaluate over the next few minutes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  I'll move to Trnopolje.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] You said, Witness, that you saw a fence in

 7     Trnopolje.  Did it go all around the building and how tall it was?

 8        A.   I believe it was up to an average man's chest.  It was the

 9     existing fence of the school.  It was not built especially for the camp.

10        Q.   The people who you said were going out and going off in all

11     directions and coming back, did they go out escorted by guards or on

12     their own, and did they come back escorted by the guards or alone?

13        A.   I didn't see any escorts.  I saw people coming out -- going out

14     and coming back but without any escort.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court P6940.

16        Q.   General Gvero, did his job include propaganda?

17        A.   The person in charge of these matters in any army, including

18     combat activities, has to cover propaganda because war includes

19     propaganda.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In this document, General Gvero says:

21             "Everybody knows that Serbs did not want this war, that they did

22     everything to avoid it."

23             To the best of your knowledge, is this propaganda or fact?

24        A.   I would not call this propaganda.  I think it's a fact.

25        Q.   It was put to you that there was the Ottoman yoke and atrocities

Page 28775

 1     and the constant threat of Ustashas, killing fields and knives, but in

 2     the third paragraph of this document, we read:

 3             "However, in this war, which they did not want, which was imposed

 4     on them, the Serbs had no choice.  They had to fight or disappear."

 5             To the best of your knowledge, was this war imposed on the Serbs?

 6        A.   I maintain and believe that it was.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I participated in that war --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

10             Mr. Traldi.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Just -- I don't think it affects the answer

12     necessarily, but just for the record, I don't recall putting to the

13     witness that there was the Ottoman yoke in 1993.  And I'd like my

14     questions accurately reflected in the record.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's see whether the witness can finish his

16     answer and then let's move on.  It's on the record, Mr. Traldi.

17             Please proceed.  You may finish your answer.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe the war was imposed on

19     the Serbs.  And I know, as one of the participants, that nobody ever told

20     me we needed that war.  We were all placed in a situation where we will

21     to understand and accept that the war was imposed on us, and we had to

22     protect the people from the same things happening to them as earlier in

23     our history.  And from all I know, I conclude that this war was imposed

24     on us.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

Page 28776

 1        Q.   In the B/C/S, on page 1 of this document, and it's probably

 2     page 2 in English --

 3             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] Can we see page 2 in English.  [In

 4     English] We have to move to the third one obviously.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] The second full paragraph in English:

 6             "From the beginning of this war, the Serbs have been proposing to

 7     stop it.  The Muslims proclaimed war.  Serbs propose peace and

 8     negotiations for peace.  The Muslims carry out new ever-large --

 9     larger-scale offensives."

10             In your view, is this propaganda or fact?

11        A.   These are facts.  And by the way, Mr. Cutileiro confirmed it in a

12     1995 interview, that peace had already been concluded when Alija reneged

13     on it.  That peace plan, the Cutileiro Peace Plan had been accepted by

14     all sides to the war but then Alija Izetbegovic unilaterally rejected it.

15        Q.   I don't know if this is in dispute between the parties.  I'll ask

16     you because I believe no evidence has been led on the subject.

17             What was it that the Serbs feared?  How many Serbs were killed in

18     World War II?

19        A.   It's 1.700.000.  That's the figure I know.  Around 700.000 were

20     killed in Jasenovac camp alone.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

22             MR. LUKIC:  That was my last question.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That was your last question.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Barasin.  We extended a bit.

Page 28777

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions, Mr. Traldi?

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Just a couple, Mr. President.  I'd need less than

 3     five minutes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm looking at the interpreter's booth, whether

 5     less than five minutes -- and it's not my promise but it's Mr. Traldi's

 6     promise.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  We don't have a problem if everybody else can stay

 8     longer.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Traldi, not more than five minutes.  Please

10     proceed.

11                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi:

12        Q.   Sir, you didn't personally participate in any peace negotiations

13     between the Republika Srpska authorities and the Bosnian government, did

14     you?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Yes, you did not; or yes, you did?

17        A.   You asked me:  "Right?"  And I said no, I did not.

18        Q.   And, for instance, the Chamber has received evidence that the

19     Cutileiro Plan was never signed by the Bosnian Serbs.  That's true, isn't

20     it?

21        A.   That's not true.  Even then it was presented in the public that

22     the plan had been accepted, and I also read an interview by Mr. Cutileiro

23     who said --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question is whether it was signed.  If

25     you say that Mr. Traldi is wrong that it was not signed --

Page 28778

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not signed by any of the

 2     parties at the time.  It was accepted but only initialled.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  That completes my questions for the witness,

 5     Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's less than five minutes, Mr. Traldi.  I think

 7     the interpreters can have more trust in you than they would have in me.

 8             Witness, this concludes your testimony.  We'd like to thank you

 9     very much for coming to The Hague and also for having the patience to

10     stay over the weekend and to wait this morning until the other witness

11     has finished his testimony.  I thank you for having answered all the

12     questions that you were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

13     wish you a safe return home again.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow,

18     Tuesday, the 25th of November, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

19     courtroom, I.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.21 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 25th day of

22                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.