Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28779

 1                           Tuesday, 25 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Before we continue to hear the evidence, the Chamber was informed

12     that the Prosecution had two preliminary matters to be raised.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14             Just a few simple matters relating to Witness Kralj who, you'll

15     remember, back on the 28th of October testified as a liaison officer with

16     the Main Staff.  And one of the convoy documents used, P06864, did not

17     have a complete translation.  We've now completed the translation.  And

18     it is in e-court at doc ID 0676-9828-A-ET, and we'd ask that that be

19     uploaded.  We've informed the Defence and everyone.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Uploading is what you're supposed to do.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry, it's uploaded and we would just like it

22     in.  I understand that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then, Madam Registrar, you are hereby

24     instructed to attach doc ID 0676-9828-A-ET to P06864.  The translation

25     was the only issue.

Page 28780

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There's one other thing.  And that, of course,

 2     replaces the -- the other one.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is it about the same document what are you raising

 4     now?

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Okay.  Then let's finalise this one first.

 7     P6864 with the new attached translation is admitted into evidence.  And,

 8     Mr. Lukic, as always, you've got 48 hours to revisit the matter if the

 9     translation causes you any concerns.

10             Next one, please, Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  And, Mr. President, you may remember when

12     the Defence put in a document, D728, which was a convoy -- which was

13     actually a combat report from the Rogatica Brigade which indicated a

14     UNHCR convoy, they had found a few boxes of ammunition on it, and you had

15     asked us to look in to see if there was a complaint filed with UNHCR

16     about this particular situation.  And you said that it might assist the

17     Chamber in its assessment and evaluation of this piece of evidence.

18             So we went back and looked, we didn't find any UNHCR documents.

19     We did find a few UNPROFOR documents that talked about this convoy, and

20     that we did identify a few issues that might help you look into the

21     matter further.  I've found four documents that I've shared with

22     Mr. Lukic that provide some information.  I could briefly tell you what

23     that information is to see if you want to look into it any further.  It's

24     rather simple information, though.  It's the kind of thing that sometimes

25     creates more questions than answers, but it does answer part of your

Page 28781

 1     concern.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, have you discussed what you would bring

 3     to our attention, Mr. McCloskey, so that it is, I would say, neutral in

 4     terms of what is in those documents?  I mean, apart from what that means

 5     and what conclusions you could draw from that.  Is there any disagreement

 6     about the content?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  No, there is no disagreement about the content.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any disagreement about relevance?

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I don't think so.  There is none.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  Then, Mr. Lukic, I suggest that Mr. McCloskey

11     brings to our attention a few facts which apparently are not in dispute

12     and is about issues found in documentation.  And if there's anything

13     you'd like to add, then, of course, you have an opportunity to do so.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. McCloskey, how much time do you

16     think you would need?

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just 30 seconds to tell you what this is, really,

18     and see how far we want to go with it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One second, please.  Yes ...

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed as you suggested, Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We did find that this convoy

23     referred to in this document we believe was -- left from Belgrade on

24     June 7th and that it was escorted by a Russian contingent and that it was

25     designed to go to Zepa, and that -- we understand from the document that

Page 28782

 1     UNHCR is investigating the finding of the few boxes of ammunition, but we

 2     didn't have any results of any investigations.  I thought it was

 3     interesting to -- for you to know that it originated from Belgrade and it

 4     was -- it got stopped outside of Zepa where the boxes were found and it

 5     was escorted by a Russian contingent of UNPROFOR, which I think creates

 6     questions about how that ammunition got there and what purpose it was.

 7     But that's what we found out about it.  I basically have that information

 8     in four documents which I could offer into evidence if that would be

 9     helpful or not.  I find this matter relevant but I don't find it overly

10     important regarding the issues, though any question you have is obviously

11     important.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, first of all, I do understand that

13     there's no dispute that these documents at least indicate that the convoy

14     left from Belgrade, that it was accompanied by a Russian contingent of

15     UNPROFOR, and that was designed to go to Zepa where it was then stopped

16     before arrival.

17             That information doesn't allow you at this moment for

18     conclusions, Mr. McCloskey, but rather raises issues as how, when, where,

19     and by whom got that ammunition on the convoy.  Do we need the documents

20     for that, Mr. Lukic?  I'm looking at you as well.

21             MR. LUKIC:  I think that Mr. McCloskey just tried to comply with

22     your request if we can find anything, so I think it's more for

23     Your Honours to decide whether Your Honours need those documents or not.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 28783

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, to the degree that we may see

 2     other convoys that have ammunition found in them, this might be an issue

 3     that we would bring up, but I'm comfortable not offering these documents

 4     unless you'd like to see them.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  At this moment, this party -- this -- these facts

 7     found in those documents on which the parties at least agree that the

 8     documents tell us that these were the facts, the Chamber does not need

 9     the documents themselves at this point in time.  If at any -- if in the

10     future it would be useful or would be helpful to have a closer look at

11     those documents, either in view of other evidence that emerges or

12     whatever, then there's still a possibility that -- that you tender them

13     and that you -- or you file them or you tender them at that point in

14     time.

15             At this moment, we do not need the documents.  We are satisfied

16     with the information on which the parties apparently agree.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  It's on the record.  And it's also clear

19     on the record that what I said is an agreement between the parties.

20             Then, Mr. McCloskey, anything else.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  One small matter.  I see Mr. Stojanovic is no

22     longer with us.  Oh, no, there he is.  Thank you.

23             We had -- there's an old intercept matter.  There's -- that I

24     believe we have agreement on.  P1366 is an intercept that we had offered

25     a revised translation for.  Basically it came down to the translation

Page 28784

 1     said:  "This job gets an A."  The original translation was always:  "This

 2     job gets an A."  In one of the revisions it got turned into:  "This job

 3     gets a 5," and that's what's currently in the record.

 4             I believe Mr. Stojanovic has agreed with me that the appropriate

 5     translation should be:  "This job gets an A," and if we have that

 6     agreement, then we will make sure that translation is uploaded and put in

 7     place.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apparently there's agreement.  We're waiting

 9     for the new translation to be --

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're not sure.  I thought there was but we had a

11     little trouble communicating, so I -- we need to know that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, is there agreement on the portion of

13     the translation where Mr. McCloskey says it should be:  "This job gets an

14     A," where there may be at this moment doubt as whether the "job gets a

15     five."

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's the agreement we reached

17     yesterday, Your Honour.  And it was my understanding that we had agreed

18     to meet up today as well in this regard, and to define how this would be

19     possible.  Actually, how possible to stipulate.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think the easier thing is if it's a

21     translation issue, that the new translation will be uploaded, that we get

22     a number for that, that Madam Registrar is then instructed once we know

23     that number to attach it, and that it would then replace the current

24     translation and then we have a new P1366 in English.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I had provided

Page 28785

 1     Mr. Stojanovic with the -- with the old and the new, and we'll discuss

 2     that to make sure we get that and do as you say.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing else?

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand this morning it's easier to agree

 6     with the Prosecution than to agree within the Defence.

 7             Mr. Lukic, nothing from the Defence any further?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We have nothing to raise today, Your Honours, and I

 9     think that my colleague will meet with Mr. McCloskey in the afternoon to

10     discuss this matter.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll wait for the results of that.

12             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.  And that would

13     be Mr. Todic.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honour.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  To the extent there may be any uncertainty, the

17     document, the translation which is now attached to P06864, is replacing

18     the old translation.  So it's not only that the new one is attached but

19     the old one is removed.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21                           [The witness entered court]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Todic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

25     make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make that solemn

Page 28786

 1     declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  DUSAN TODIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Todic.

 7             Mr. Todic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find

 8     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for the Prosecution [sic].

 9             No saluting, Mr. Mladic, you know that.  No saluting.  Just

10     refrain from doing it.  Please proceed.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. LUKIC:  Only I think you said that I'm for the Prosecution

13     here.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If I said so, then it's -- I don't know whether it's

15     a comedy of errors or a tragedy of errors, but, Mr. Lukic, apologies.

16     I'm a fully aware that you're here for the Defence.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

20                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Todic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   For the record, could you please state your name and surname,

24     slowly.

25        A.   I'm Dusan Todic.

Page 28787

 1             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D1686 in

 2     e-court now.

 3        Q.   Mr. Todic, did you give a statement to the members of

 4     General Mladic's Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you see the document on the screen?

 7        A.   Yes, I do see that.  I gave the statement on the 16th of May,

 8     2013, and the 19th of January [as interpreted], 2014.

 9        Q.   On that page, do you see the signature?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Can you recognise the signature?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Whose signature is this?

14        A.   My very own personal signature.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at the last page

16     of this document now.

17        Q.   Do you see the document before you?

18        A.   I do.

19        Q.   Do you recognise the signature or signatures on this document?

20        A.   Yes, in both places you can see my signature.  And the date is

21     the 19th of June, 2014.  That's when I signed this.

22        Q.   Mr. Todic, does this statement correctly reflect what you said to

23     General Mladic's Defence team?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   What is contained in the statement, is it correct and truthful?

Page 28788

 1        A.   Yes, and I've given an oath.  I said that I would speak the truth

 2     and nothing but the truth.

 3        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would you, in

 4     principle, provide the same answers as you gave when this statement was

 5     written up?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  We'd offer this statement into the evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no objections.  Madam Registrar, the

10     number would be?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1686 receives number D798.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I would just read short statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Mr. Todic witnessed the attack of the illegal

17     Slovenian Territorial Defence on the JNA unit and facilities, managing to

18     pull out with his unit to Pula during a cease-fire and then by ship to

19     Bar, Montenegro, from where he reached Batajnica, Serbia.

20             He will testify that from Batajnica he went via Bihac to Knin,

21     where he witnessed the attack of the illegal Croat forces on the JNA

22     units and Serbian civilian population in Dalmatia and Knin Krajina.  Due

23     to a lack of men, General Ratko Mladic often asked security organs to

24     accompany him in the front.  That is how he personally witnessed and took

25     part in the events concerning the pacifying of the separation line from

Page 28789

 1     Cetina village via Sibenik to Zadar, Posedarje, Maslenicki most, and

 2     Mali Alan.  Using a megaphone, the General called both sides to agree on

 3     cease-fire, not to shoot but to negotiate.

 4             Mr. Todic stayed in Croatia from 27 August 1991 to 12 May 1992,

 5     when he went to Crna Rijeka together with General Mladic and Colonels

 6     Tolimir and Zivanovic.  He worked with the intelligence and at the

 7     Security Administration.

 8             He was engaged as personal escort to General Manojlo Milovanovic.

 9     He visited all the war theatres with him.

10             Mr. Todic will testify about the rape of Serb women in Gorazde,

11     which he personally heard at the positions around Gorazde, and about

12     medical assistance provided to an ill Muslim girl from Gorazde, her

13     treatment at the Military Medical Academy and the military hospital at

14     Pale.

15             He will also speak about the captured unit of Muslim boys of the

16     5th Corps of Army of B and H, which General Mladic returned to Bihac in

17     1994 without exchange.  He will testify that General Mladic never ordered

18     any attack on civilian objects in his presence, not even when they

19     watched together as the Muslims burned the house of Mladic's parents.

20             He will testify that General Mladic always insisted on a fair and

21     proper conduct towards prisoners of war.

22             Mr. Todic will also confirm that during the activities at

23     Srebrenica, he was with General Milovanovic at the western Krajina

24     theatre of war.  They both came to VRS Main Staff between 17th and

25     19th of July, where he was present during short conversation between

Page 28790

 1     General Mladic and General Milovanovic.

 2             That was the statement summary of this witness, Your Honours, and

 3     I do not have any questions for this witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You're aware that you added a few things to

 5     the statement, such as the qualification that attacks were illegal,

 6     et cetera.  That's not in the statement itself.  But as again the

 7     statement is not the evidence, we'll focus on what we find in the

 8     statement.

 9             Thank you for that, Mr. Lukic.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the fact that Mr. Lukic doesn't put any

12     questions to you doesn't mean that your evidence is not important for us,

13     but we find it all in your statement, and Mr. McCloskey will now

14     cross-examine you.  Mr. McCloskey is counsel for the Prosecution, and

15     you'll find him to your right.

16             Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

19        Q.   Good morning, sir.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, Witness, I do not have any

21     questions for this witness.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's -- of course, now the question arises

23     why this witness was not called as a 92 bis witness.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, because he was testifying about

25     General Mladic, so it's, I think, our understanding that he cannot --

Page 28791

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's acts and conduct of the accused.  I fully

 2     agree with you, Mr. Lukic.  You're perfectly right.  You could not even

 3     have called him under Rule 92 bis, but that's due to the content and not

 4     to the fact that you have no further questions for him.

 5             Nevertheless, let's not forget that Rule 92 bis does not apply if

 6     the statement is about acts and conduct of the accused because Rule 92

 7     bis creates a possibility to call the witness without being

 8     cross-examined.  But if there's no need to cross-examine him, then, of

 9     course, one could consider - and that has been done in other cases as

10     well - it could have been put before the Chamber whether it would be a

11     solution under those circumstances where there's no need for

12     cross-examination to admit into evidence the statement of the witness

13     without any further questions being put to him and without the witness

14     being cross-examined.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I agree with you, only this is the first

16     time that this situation arose so we couldn't anticipate it in any way.

17     But we will approach the Prosecution with several witness statements for

18     we consider that could be 92 bis although it has some testimony about

19     General Mladic.  But we'll discuss it with the Prosecution.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, at least it is a matter to be considered

21     because the ultimate result now is that the witness travels to The Hague

22     in order to find out that his statement is summarised in court, that no

23     questions are put to him, and that he travels back to the former

24     Yugoslavia, which is certainly not the most efficient and the most -- and

25     the most -- we were not here to save money but we're also not here to

Page 28792

 1     spend money on matters which do not in any way further the case.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  If I just may add before my colleague responds,

 3     Your Honour, it was estimated two and a half hours for cross for this

 4     witness, then it was cut down to half an hour, and only now we learn that

 5     there is no questions for him, so we could not avoid bringing him here.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you're perfectly right in drawing my attention

 7     to be perhaps a bit more critical to the Prosecution with having

 8     indicated two and a half hours, then half an hour, and now nothing.

 9             Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this -- I notified the 30 minutes

11     several days ago, so I think everyone was on notice of that --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. McCloskey, the issue is whether there was any

13     need to cross-examine the witness because if there was any need to

14     cross-examine the witness, the Defence was under an obligation to call

15     the witness to be present to be cross-examined.  If you still had doubt

16     on your mind whether or not you would have any questions, then you should

17     have raised that in a timely manner so that the Defence could have acted

18     upon such information.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, as I'm sure you're aware, this is a very

20     important and strategic decision the Prosecution makes and it was not

21     made until just a few minutes ago when I saw that this person had nothing

22     extra to add to you.  And I'm certainly not going to take the time in

23     this court when I don't need to.  But this is an important decision.  I

24     do not take it lightly and -- but it's a strategic decision.  There's a

25     lot riding on this decision and whether or not re-direct is going to

Page 28793

 1     happen, whether or not they are going to lead witnesses in the future,

 2     this is an important decision.  It is not something we did lightly and I

 3     just made it.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Could the parties, in the future, in relation

 5     to witnesses where there's any chance at all that there will be no

 6     further questions in-chief, that it's only the statement which is

 7     tendered, nothing in addition to that, and where the Prosecution is

 8     strategically considering whether it would cross-examine the witness, yes

 9     or no, to at least discuss the matter so as to avoid that the witness

10     spends a lot of time on coming to The Hague and that the Tribunal spends

11     a lot of money on getting the witness to The Hague and then to find out

12     in court that nothing is added to the statement itself.

13             We leave it to that.

14             Witness, I -- Mr. Todic, you've heard the discussion I had with

15     the parties.  I had this discussion because I feel it not the best way to

16     proceed in asking a witness to come a long way to The Hague and then to

17     find out that, apart from the statement he has given already, that no

18     further questions are there and that, therefore, the whole travelling

19     exercise, both cumbersome for you and expensive for the Tribunal, is --

20     was unnecessary.  I just want you to know that.  I also want you to know

21     that we highly appreciate that you took the effort coming to The Hague,

22     and that you were willing to assist this Chamber in determining the

23     issues in this case by giving your evidence.

24             I can't say more about it.  Thank you very much.  And you may

25     follow the usher, and I wish you a safe return home.

Page 28794

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           [The witness withdrew]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would kindly ask

 5     that it be checked.  I asked yesterday that the witness be ready for

 6     transfer at 10.00.  Now I see it's eight past 10.00.  I'm not sure he has

 7     been transferred to the building of the Tribunal.  I would now appreciate

 8     it if somebody could check.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The next witness is expected to arrive in

11     two minutes from now.  I suggest that we take a very short break, that

12     everyone remain standby so that we can resume, if need be, within the

13     next three, four, or five minutes.

14             We take a very, very short break.

15                            --- Break taken at 10.08 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10 .16 a.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We are waiting for the witness to be escorted in the

18     courtroom.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Mijanovic.  Before you give

22     evidence --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And all the best to you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

25     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

Page 28795

 1     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO MIJANOVIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please be seated, Mr. Mijanovic.

 7             Mr. Mijanovic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.

 8     You'll find him to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

10                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, sir.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   According to the standard procedure here in court, would you

14     please give us your name and surname.

15        A.   Slavko Mijanovic.

16        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, did you at one time give the Defence team of

17     Mr. Karadzic a written statement?

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would kindly ask

20     to call up in e-court 65 ter 1D04150.  Could we look at the last page of

21     this statement.

22        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, I hope you see it before you now.  Is the

23     signature on this page and the date written in your hand?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, in the course of proofing before you appeared in

Page 28796

 1     the courtroom today, did you indicate that three corrections should be

 2     made to your statement, to make things more precise?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 5     look at the first paragraph in the statement of this witness.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, please have a look at it.  We read here that you

 7     are currently employed in the Republic Directorate for Renewal and

 8     Development and you told me that the exact name of the company where you

 9     work, the Republic Directorate for Renewal and Civil Engineering.  So one

10     word, "development," needs to be changed into "civil engineering."  Or

11     building.

12             Thank you.  In paragraph 2 of your statement --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness answered yes.

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In the second paragraph, in the last-but-one line, you mention a

16     name whose last name -- a man whose last name is Sonja, S-o-n-j-a,

17     whereas you said that the correct name was Sunje, S-u-n-j-e.  Would that

18     be the correct name?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And in paragraph 4 of your statement, in the last-but-one

21     sentence, we read:

22             "After coming to Ilidza, for a while I provided security for the

23     municipal building ..."

24             You have said, though, that a more precise phrasing would be:

25     "Upon coming to Ilidza" --

Page 28797

 1             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  I'm going to object now actually.  We have not

 4     received a proofing note so -- as far as I'm aware, so I'm not aware of

 5     these corrections.  But on this -- I see the first two were kind of

 6     technical matters, but on this sentence I'd actually ask that if the

 7     witness has a correction, that he just be asked what the correction is in

 8     an open-ended fashion.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I do understand you will follow the

10     suggestion made by Mr. Weber.  That's okay.

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I thought

12     this was a minor correction.

13        Q.   But I will ask you, Witness, to tell us what kind of work you did

14     after coming to Ilidza.

15        A.   After I came to Ilidza, I did not provide security at the

16     municipal building as written in this text.  Instead, I occasionally

17     served rounds of duty at the TO Staff which was in Sumarska Aleja, in

18     that local building, and that building would later become the staff of

19     the command.

20        Q.   Would then a more precise phrasing be instead of:  "For a while,

21     I provided security to the building" --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

23             MR. WEBER:  Objection, leading, I believe it will be as it

24     started out.  Also it's asked and answered.  He's been asked to provide

25     his correction and he's provided his correction for the record.

Page 28798

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Weber is insisting on you not

 2     leading the witness in this respect and you should abide by that.  I

 3     mean, abide by the rule, not to abide by what Mr. Weber says.

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.  If

 5     what the witness said is sufficient for the time being, I will ask no

 6     more about this correction.

 7        Q.   I will ask you now, Mr. Mijanovic, having made these three

 8     corrections, would you still today, after making a solemn declaration in

 9     the courtroom, give the same answers to these questions and would your

10     answers be completely accurate and truthful?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender the

14     statement of Witness Slavko Mijanovic, which has the 65 ter number

15     1D04150.

16             MR. WEBER:  No objections.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we decide on the matter.

18             Witness, you were shown the last page of your statement, and you

19     were asked whether the signature on the page and the date written is in

20     your hand, and you confirmed that.  Do you have any recollection of

21     signing the statement?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Where was it?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was here, in January 2013.  I

25     don't know exactly which room.  Maybe during proofing or preparation.

Page 28799

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you -- you say it was here in The Hague,

 2     and you said it was January.  Was the 19th of January, 2013?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 19 January, yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could I take you to your statement.  I do

 5     see that you start with the paragraph with your own background,

 6     et cetera, and then it goes on.  Paragraph 11 still deals with the time

 7     after August 1994 until the Dayton Agreement.  Is that all correct?  You

 8     had an opportunity to re-read it?

 9             And perhaps we could have the third page of the statement on our

10     screens.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You checked everything very carefully, that there

13     are no mistakes in this statement?  Apart from the corrections you made.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there's a whole item which is:

16     "Information received since 19th of January, 2013."  I have some

17     difficulties in understanding how you can sign a statement on the

18     19th of January of 2013 in which you relate what information received

19     after the 19th of January, 2013.

20             Do you have any explanation for that?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, your microphone is not switched on.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.

24             In the B/C/S version, it is clearly stated there is no word

25     "after."  It says:  "Information obtained on 19 January 2013."

Page 28800

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  If that is the case, then -- well, I checked

 2     in the B/C/S whether at least the date was there.  Now it seems that you

 3     confirmed that the date is there.

 4             Could we have the -- it reads:  "Informacije" -- let me try to do

 5     the following.  I'll read the B/C/S or the witness could read the B/C/S.

 6             Could you read what is said there.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Information received

 8     19 January 2013."

 9             Should I read on?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, there's no need to do that.  This resolves the

11     matter.

12             Mr. Weber, you were sufficiently familiar with the language to

13     already understand that this was what was meant.  And that you asked for

14     a correction of the English translation, isn't it.

15             MR. WEBER:  No.  But I appreciate that this was the Karadzic

16     statement so ...

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I -- there's no dispute about that.

18             Mr. Stojanovic, we then need to have a new translation uploaded,

19     which says that it is information received on the 19th of January, 2013.

20             Then I have one question:  From whom did you receive that

21     information, on the 19th of January, Witness?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that I received this

23     information from anyone.  I knew about all of that, and I supplemented

24     the information that had been written up here earlier on.  I wrote this

25     entire information at some point after Dayton - I don't know exactly

Page 28801

 1     when - having no idea that it would reach this Tribunal.  Then, during

 2     the preparations, I supplemented the information with this.  That is to

 3     say, I was familiar with this from the very outset.  It's not that I

 4     received it from anywhere.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Had you been interviewed before the 19th of January?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the 19th of January, someone

 7     asked me to write up this information that I did.  In addition to being

 8     asked to come to testify before the Tribunal and the preparations that I

 9     had here, no one else ever discussed the matter with me.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So I do understand that the whole of the text is

11     your own formulation.  It is not that you were interviewed and that this

12     text was written down by someone who interviewed you, but you were

13     invited to put on paper yourself what you knew and you added the last

14     three paragraphs on the 19th of January.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I wrote this information which

16     is essentially the same as this one, except that I did not deal with it

17     in a lawyerly manner because I'm not a lawyer.  I'm an architect.  And

18     then one of the lawyers here, one of the Defence counsel, let me put it

19     this way again, dealt with it in a lawyerly fashion, wrote up these

20     paragraphs, et cetera.  But my information and the one that we have

21     before us is the same, actually.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number to be assigned to the

23     statement of the witness would be?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement bearing number 1D4150

25     receives number D799.

Page 28802

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Is marked for identification, awaiting a new

 2     translation to be uploaded.  And the Chamber notes well that there is no

 3     objection to admission.

 4             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic -- yes, we are at the time for a

 5     break.

 6             Witness, further questions will be put to you after the break.

 7     We'll take break of 20 minutes.  We'd like to see you back then.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take a break, and we'll resume at five minutes

10     to 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no speaking at a volume audible for

14     others.

15                           [Defence counsel confer]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  With your leave,

19     Your Honours, I would like to read out the statement or, rather, the

20     summary of the statement of Slavko Mijanovic.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Slavko Mijanovic has a

23     university degree in architecture and, as an SDS official, in the autumn

24     of 1990, he was appointed deputy secretary of the Secretariat for Town

25     Planning and Housing Affairs in the municipality of Novi Grad in

Page 28803

 1     Sarajevo.  He remained in that position until the end of April 1992,

 2     when, for safety and security reasons, he left his job, moved his family

 3     to Montenegro, and he went to Ilidza and made himself available to the

 4     War Commission of the Serb Municipality of Ilidza.

 5             The witness says that because of intensive war operations, Ilidza

 6     was being abandoned both by the Serb and non-Serb population as they were

 7     fleeing from the horrors of war, seeking a safer environment.  Some of

 8     the non-Serbs stayed on in Ilidza throughout the war and, at the same

 9     time, a lot of the Serb population started coming from the territory of

10     the Muslim part of Sarajevo; that is to say, Hrasnica and Sokolovic

11     Kolonija as well as Central Bosnia.  So it became necessary to provide

12     accommodation for these people and to have abandoned apartments placed

13     under municipal control.

14             With that objective in mind, the War Commission of the

15     municipality of Ilidza, in July 1992, adopted a set of rules on providing

16     such apartments for temporary use.  These apartments were supposed to be

17     distributed by a commission that was headed by Witness Mijanovic.

18     Apartments were allocated on the basis of criteria that defined

19     priorities and these decisions contained a particular clause; namely,

20     that the apartments were being allocated for temporary use until the end

21     of the war operations without the possibility of acquiring ownership

22     rights over these apartments and also that the temporary tenants are

23     duty-bound to take good care of the apartment and the objects found in

24     the apartment.

25             In its work, until the summer of 1993, this commission reached

Page 28804

 1     over 3.000 decisions and later on it grew into the Secretariat for

 2     Housing Affairs, and the witness was appointed secretary of this newly

 3     established secretariat and remained in that position until August 1994.

 4             The witness notes that no one's ownership or tenancy rights were

 5     ever infringed upon.  And after the war, everyone had their tenancy

 6     rights returned.  So, in accordance with the law, it became possible to

 7     buy these apartments and to transfer these ownership rights.

 8             That would be the summary of this statement, and, Your Honours,

 9     with your leave, I would just like to put a few questions to

10     Witness Mijanovic.

11             Could we please have a document in e-court.  It's been marked for

12     identification as D899 [as interpreted].  I would like us to focus on

13     paragraph 5 of the statement.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  D899 or 799?

15             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] My understanding, Your Honour,

16     was D799.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

18             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you say already

20     after the second big attack by Muslim units on the Serb part of Ilidza

21     municipality on the 14th of May, 1992, and then you continue about that.

22     I would just like you to tell the Court, to the best of your

23     recollection, when this first attack of the Muslim units occurred against

24     the part of the territory was controlled by the Serb forces in the

25     municipality of Ilidza?

Page 28805

 1        A.   The first part was on the 22nd of April, and I know that from the

 2     documentation that was included in the mentioned rules on the allocation

 3     of apartments.  Although I, on the 22nd of April, was not in Ilidza.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 9 -- so please let us take a look at

 5     paragraph 9 of your statement.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we can keep this

 7     part of paragraph 9 in English because I'd like to focus precisely on

 8     that first part.

 9        Q.   You say that:

10             "The Secretariat for housing and municipal affairs made a list of

11     the flats, determined their condition, and compiled a database,"

12     et cetera.

13             Could you tell us whose apartments these were that you

14     registered?

15        A.   The database as far as these apartments are concerned in the

16     urban part of Ilidza had already existed in the Secretariat for

17     Town Planning and Housing Affairs, or whatever its name was.  The

18     secretariat had a complete register and compiled records on the ground.

19     That is to say, every effort was made to collect correct information

20     about the structure of the apartments, the tenants of the apartments, the

21     owners of the apartments because it was mainly companies that were the

22     owners of apartments, whereas it was physical persons who had tenancy

23     rights.  No attention was paid to ethnic background and that was not

24     recorded in the database at all.  In the briefest possible terms, all the

25     apartments were registered in the urban part of Ilidza.

Page 28806

 1        Q.   What are the apartments that you had available when you allocated

 2     these apartments for temporary use?

 3        A.   The apartments that are categorised as abandoned apartments,

 4     regardless of who owned the apartment and who had the tenancy rights.

 5        Q.   And in paragraph 15 - let us please take a look at paragraph 15

 6     of the statement - you say:

 7             "After the war, everyone's tenancy rights were recognised, so

 8     people were allowed to buy and sell these flats in accordance with the

 9     law."

10             Could you please tell the Trial Chamber if you have more precise

11     information; namely, the return of property in the municipality of Ilidza

12     to the pre-war owners or tenants, was that fully carried out?

13        A.   If you allow me, I would like to say a few words about the

14     decisions that I signed, the decisions on the allocation of apartments

15     for temporary use.

16             These decisions are accessible to you, and it is visible that --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- witness, the question was about what

18     happened with the apartments, and the question was related to

19     paragraph 15, where you say:

20             "After the war, everyone's tenancy rights were recognised and

21     people were allowed to buy and sell these flats in accordance with the

22     law."

23             Now that is what the question is about.  Would you please first

24     answer the question, whether that was fully carried out.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the post-Dayton or, rather,

Page 28807

 1     post-war period, speaking of Republika Srpska, according to statistics,

 2     all tenancy rights were restored as well as ownership rights over all

 3     immovable property.  If there were individual cases otherwise, it's a

 4     play of numbers that can be explained by a statistical margin of error.

 5     What I do know is that there was no reciprocity on the side of the

 6     Federation because military-owned apartments were never returned --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you were not asked to comment on

 8     what happened on the other side.  You were asked, I think, about Ilidza,

 9     although you expanded your answer on other areas as well.

10             Let me put the question quite simple:  What was the number of

11     apartments with ownership rights of Serbs - and later I'll put the same

12     question for you for Muslims - that resulted in moving out of the owner

13     and finally not either moving in by the owner again or the apartment

14     being sold by the owner?

15             And let's start with Serbs.  If you know.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ilidza municipality is

17     idiosyncratic in the sense that under the Dayton Accords, the central

18     urban part of the municipality where I was in the war went to the federal

19     side, went to the Federation, whereas the eastern part, Kasindol and

20     Gojkovici went to the Serbian side.  So it's hard to talk about an exact

21     number.  And what I said about the level of Republika Srpska, I know

22     these things because I had a close co-operation after the Dayton Accords

23     with the Ministry for Refugees and Displaced Persons.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Further on --

Page 28808

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.

 2             Do I understand that you do not have precise, detailed

 3     information about whether the rights that were to be observed fully,

 4     whether that -- whether that took effect, yes or no?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have such information in

 6     its entirety but this information --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have it for any part of Ilidza, because it

 8     was split up?  Would you know it for one part or for the other part of

 9     Ilidza?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More or less both parts of Ilidza.

11     That's where ownership rights and property were fully returned or

12     restored.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So that means that everyone returned to his house?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That does not mean that everyone

15     returned to their house.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  What does it then mean?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that people managed to

18     get their property back but physically they did not return.  Because they

19     cannot earn a living there.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have detailed information about how they got

21     their property back even if they did not return to it?  Did they sell it,

22     or did they ... was it let to others?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In order to sell their property

24     beforehand, in accordance with the law and legal regulations, one had to

25     have one's property returned, and many people sold their property,

Page 28809

 1     exchanged it, and carried out other legal action.  Ilidza nowadays

 2     belongs to the federal part and it is a fact that very few Serbs live

 3     there nowadays.  Most of them are elderly.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Are many Muslims now living in the part of

 5     Ilidza which belongs to the Republika Srpska?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the part of Ilidza that belongs

 7     to Republika Srpska, it so happened that there weren't many Muslims.

 8     They were the minority population there.  What I see is that, to a large

 9     extent, these settlements are now populated.  And after Dayton, I became

10     the chief of town planning in that area, and I personally legalized many

11     buildings and --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let me stop you there.  These settlements

13     are now populated by whom?  Still by the Muslims?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Still by the Muslims, where they

15     lived.  Not to the extent to which they lived there before, though.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  To what extent?  What percentage did return

17     to their own property?  Do you have any statistics about that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The return was 100 per cent.  But

19     which percentage truly lives in their pre-war homes, I don't know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And how do you know the return was 100 per cent?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know because I worked in the

22     municipality as chief of town planning, and in that directorate I have

23     constant contacts and co-operation with the Ministry for Refugees and

24     Displaced Persons and the Ministry for the Human Rights of Refugees at

25     the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 28810

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  And what percentage now lives -- truly lives in

 2     their pre-war homes?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not say exactly.  But I'm

 4     coming back again to that story that I issued many decisions after the

 5     war concerning the legalization of unlawfully razed buildings, about the

 6     paving of roads because it was a rural area, and for the building of new

 7     housing.  And I'm talking about the Muslim population.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It's not an answer to my question.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Could you please tell the Court how that part of the pre-war

12     Ilidza municipality is called, the one that went to Republika Srpska and

13     is mainly inhabited by Muslims?

14        A.   The name is Kotorac.  I cannot really distinguish between upper

15     and lower Kotorac.  And also in Kasindol there was some Muslim

16     population, and Ilidza also came to include a good part of Dobrinja I and

17     Dobrinja IV.  These were neighbourhoods that used to belong to the

18     pre-war municipality of Novi Grad.  Since these are large buildings with

19     a large number of tenants, the ratio of inhabitants was 50-50.

20        Q.   Thank you.  At one point, you mentioned military-owned apartments

21     or army-owned apartments.  What do you understand by that term?

22        A.   Housing owned by the Federal Secretariat for National Defence and

23     were given or allocated to military personnel for their use, but even

24     before the war, under some law, some of these apartments were repurchased

25     and became the private property of those who lived there.

Page 28811

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mijanovic.  At this moment we have nothing

 2     further.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 4             Mr. Weber, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

 5             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mijanovic, you'll now be cross-examined by

 7     Mr. Weber.  You'll find Mr. Weber to your right.  Mr. Weber is counsel

 8     for the Prosecution.

 9             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

10             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honours.

11                           Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Mijanovic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Sir, today I'd like to start by discussing your involvement in

15     the functioning of the Ilidza municipal government and just your role

16     within that government.

17             Is it correct that you attended meetings where members of the

18     municipal Crisis Staff were present?

19        A.   I was not a member of the Crisis Staff and I did not attend the

20     meetings of the Crisis Staff, but I was on the premises --

21        Q.   Sir, that wasn't exactly my question.  I just want to know:  Did

22     you attend meetings with individuals who were members of the Crisis

23     Staff?

24        A.   I did not attend the official meetings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please carefully listen to the

Page 28812

 1     question.  The question, as clarified in the second round, was whether

 2     you attended meetings with individuals who were members of the Crisis

 3     Staff.  That is, did you attend meetings where other persons were present

 4     who were members of the Crisis Staff, not necessarily Crisis Staff

 5     meetings.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

 7     question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you attended meetings where other persons

 9     were present who were members of the Crisis Staff.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Nedjelko Prstojevic is a member of the Ilidza -- was a member of

14     the Ilidza Crisis Staff; correct?

15        A.   President of the Crisis Staff, yes.

16        Q.   Did you ever attend meetings where Mr. Prstojevic was present

17     during the entire war?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Sir, the statement that you just gave is not accurate; correct?

20        A.   It was accurate.  Nedjelko Prstojevic was the president of the

21     Crisis Staff and later president of the municipality.  I, as a member of

22     the Executive Board or a member of the commission or later secretary,

23     attended many meetings together with him.

24        Q.   You scheduled meetings of the War Commission in Ilidza; correct?

25        A.   Yes, when they were held at the time when I was on duty service.

Page 28813

 1     On the instructions of Mr. Prstojevic and according to the list given me,

 2     I called members to attend meetings.

 3        Q.   All right.  Just to clarify your last answer, the person who

 4     called these meetings was Nedjelko Prstojevic?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   According to the original phrasing of paragraph 4 of your

 7     statement, which I understand you've made some clarifications to, you

 8     stated:

 9             "After I came to Ilidza, for a while, I provided security for the

10     municipal building in Ilidzanska Aleja where the Crisis Staff and the

11     military command had their offices."

12             So I understand the clarification that you made about your

13     responsibility.  I'd like to ask you about the other part of this

14     sentence.  The municipal building that you're referring to is in the same

15     building as the SDS hall; correct?

16             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, if it assists the witness, I see

17     the statement is before him, D799, I'm referring to paragraph 4.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building in the Ilidza Aleja is

19     not the municipal building.  The municipal building is about a kilometre

20     away from this one.  In that month of May, when I came to Ilidza, there

21     was nobody in the municipal building.

22        Q.   Okay.  Sir --

23        A.   It was not operating.

24        Q.   Sir, I'm not asking you for a whole explanation.  My question --

25     you're referring to this structure as the municipal building.  Is this

Page 28814

 1     the same building where the SDS hall was located?  That's what -- those

 2     were located in the same place, correct?  The building you are referring

 3     to and the SDS hall.

 4        A.   I'm not talking about the SDS or the SDS hall, and it was nothing

 5     to do with the SDS.  The Crisis Staff was in the forestry house, in the

 6     forestry lodge, in Sumarska Aleja.  There is no such thing as an SDS

 7     building.

 8        Q.   That seems to be inconsistent, your last statement with your --

 9     with the statement in your written statement.  You described the

10     municipal building in your statement, and you said it was where the

11     Crisis Staff and the military command had their offices.  This is

12     correct?

13        A.   No, it's not correct.  In my correction to the statement --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the correction to the statement

16     we made at the beginning of this session, I stated that I did tours of

17     duty at the telephone in a building in Ilidzanska Aleja which housed the

18     Crisis Staff and which was later to become the headquarters of the

19     military command.

20             MR. WEBER:

21        Q.   All right.  I'll go with your last answer now.  The military

22     command which you say later was there, that was the command of the Ilidza

23     Brigade; correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 15675 for

Page 28815

 1     the witness.

 2        Q.   Sir, coming up on the screen is a summary of the minutes from the

 3     third operational and consultative meeting of the Ilidza Serb

 4     municipality from 28 July 1992.  We see that you were present at this

 5     meeting with a number of other individuals, including Mr. Prstojevic.

 6             We see that item 2 on the agenda, which a little bit lower on the

 7     page, related to the organisation and operation of municipal

 8     administration organs.  Is it correct that you and Mr. Prstojevic worked

 9     together on issues related to the operation and organisation of municipal

10     organs?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Is it correct that you knew Nedjelko Prstojevic from before the

13     war when you were the under-secretary for urban housing matters in

14     Novi Grad and Mr. Prstojevic was the secretary for housing inspections in

15     Ilidza?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   The second name on this list is Radoslav Unkovic.  Mr. Unkovic

18     was also a member of the Ilidza Crisis Staff; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 3 of both

21     versions.

22             Your Honours, for -- so you're aware, I'm going to be referring

23     to the bottom of the page in English which is the top of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   Sir, on this page, we see a section entitled:  "The task of the

25     work group."  The minutes refer to the tasks of this group including one

Page 28816

 1     being to have contact with the government of Serbian Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina regarding the issues of creation of policy and ways of

 3     utilizing financial assets.

 4             Is it correct that there was co-ordination between the policies

 5     created at the local municipal level in Ilidza with those of the

 6     government of the Serb republic?

 7        A.   Well, I cannot be positive.  There was some co-ordination,

 8     although from what I know, throughout the war, we in Ilidza felt a bit

 9     neglected and the co-ordination with the authorities in Pale was not the

10     best.

11        Q.   We'll discuss this a little further in a little bit.

12             MR. WEBER:  But at this time the Prosecution tenders 65 ter 15675

13     into evidence.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 15675 receives number P6941.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

17             MR. WEBER:

18        Q.   You mentioned this on direct examination and it's in your

19     statement, specifically paragraph 6, where you indicate that in July 1992

20     the War Commission of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza adopted the

21     rules of procedure on assigning flats for temporary use.  As the

22     president of this commission, were you -- did you participate in the

23     drafting of these regulations?

24        A.   I'm president of the commission, not the War Commission.  These

25     things were normally done by legal experts from the municipality.  I

Page 28817

 1     can't remember exactly, but I believe I did.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31630 for

 3     the witness.

 4        Q.   Sir, before you is -- are the regulations on the allocation of

 5     flats for temporary use to the families of killed or wounded combatants,

 6     refugee families of combatants and other people adopted by the

 7     War Commission of Ilidza Serb Municipality on 5 July 1992.

 8             These are the rules that you referred to in your statement;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   I'm going to go through a number of articles of this document

12     with you.  The first one I'd like to discuss with you is Article 3.

13             MR. WEBER:  If we could please have the lower part of the B/C/S

14     original.

15             Article 3 states:

16             "In accordance with the decision on the return of displaced

17     persons to the territory of the Serb Republic of BiH ... the following

18     people are considered displaced:  People who did not return to their

19     place of residence by 20 May 1992" - if we could have the next page,

20     thank you - "nor justified the reason for not returning.  This resulted

21     in the loss of all their employment, their rights for medical and pension

22     insurance, and the tenancy rights."

23             I'll just read the last sentence:

24             "Also, they do not have the right for citizenship of the Serb

25     Republic of BiH."

Page 28818

 1        Q.   Is it correct that this definition of displaced persons mentioned

 2     here includes non-Serbs who left Ilidza prior to 20 May 1992?

 3        A.   This - what is it? - decree, or what, was never enforced, not in

 4     a single case.  This never actually came into force and nothing was ever

 5     done under this regulation.  Nobody ever had their rights to employment

 6     or citizenship rescinded.  The government never enforced this.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could I ask you, you are using two terms.

 8     You said that actually never came into force.  And you say it wasn't

 9     enforced, which is not the same.

10             Was it adopted and was it -- was it an existing legal tool,

11     irrespective of whether it was ever enforced?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously the regulation -- at

13     least this part of the regulation was based on -- on that decree.

14     Whether de jure it ever entered force, I don't know.  I know, though,

15     that we never worked following this.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  You ignored existing legal provisions?  Is that what

17     you're telling us?  You were not abiding by what may have been the law?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot say that after this

19     decree or whatever it's called, I mean, very probably a different one was

20     soon adopted that annulled this.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours, since a

22     decree is mentioned --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness.

24             Yes, we would have to ask the witness what he referred to, isn't

25     it?

Page 28819

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Correct.  I would just like us

 2     to see for that purpose the first and the last page of this document.  I

 3     think it would be fair to the witness.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I do not whether --

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In English it --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- this is a matter of fairness to the witness,

 7     but --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Article 3 in the beginning, if we

 9     may see it.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You see the last part of Article 3 on your screen at

11     this moment, I think.  If you'd-like to have the beginning.  Could we

12     move to the first page.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of Article 3.

14             So it's not a decree.  It's a decision on the return of displaced

15     people to the territory of the Serb Republic of BH, Official Gazette of

16     the Serbian people of BH, et cetera, et cetera.

17             When I was talking about a decree I was, in fact, referring to

18     this decision.  I just didn't know what it was called exactly.  This

19     decision was never enforced.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But it was adopted.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  Probably.  Because

22     it's written here.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, please proceed.

24             MR. WEBER:

25        Q.   Sir, you -- I don't think you've really answered my original

Page 28820

 1     question, which is that this provision, as written, would have applied to

 2     non-Serbs that had left Ilidza prior to 20 May 1992.

 3        A.   That is not what is written here.  What is referred to here is

 4     the return of persons who had moved out.  Their return to the territory

 5     of the Serb republic.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm not sure I see the same language that you see here.  I

 7     see that:  "The following people are considered displaced:  People who

 8     did not return to their place of residence by 20 May 1992" --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If you -- would you --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will read this out to you:

11             "Decision on the return of displaced persons on the territory of

12     the Serb Republic of BiH ..."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, first of all, you're invited not to

14     interrupt Mr. Weber.

15             Second, what Mr. Weber is drawing your attention to, he will read

16     that.  Carefully listen to him.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. WEBER:

19        Q.   According to this article, it refers to the following people are

20     considered displaced:

21             "People who did not return to their place of residence by

22     20 May 1992, nor justified the reason for not returning."

23             I'm just going to stop there.  Unquote.

24             This would have applied to non-Serbs who left prior to

25     20 May 1992; correct?

Page 28821

 1        A.   That's not correct.  That pertained to the entire population.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Which includes non-Serbs that had left, isn't it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both Serb and non-Serb.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what I suggested to you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

 7     versions.

 8        Q.   Sir, I just want to go through Articles 6 and 7 with you.

 9     Article 6 starts on the bottom of the page before you.  Pursuant to

10     Article 6 of the regulation, it identifies three categories of people for

11     whom flats may be allocated.  All three of these categories refer to

12     families of combatants.

13             Before I move on to the next page, have you had the opportunity

14     to review these categories?

15             Have you read all three categories?

16        A.   Yes.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could I please have the next page of the B/C/S.

18        Q.   Pursuant to Article 7, people who gained the status of combatant

19     are identified as those who joined the Army of the Serb people of BiH or

20     the police force of the Ilidza Serb Municipality.

21             Is it correct that the references to combatants in these

22     regulations relate to members of the Army of Republika Srpska or the

23     Ilidza MUP?

24        A.   Both the MUP and the army.

25        Q.   Sir, when you say "both the MUP and the army," is it correct you

Page 28822

 1     are referring to the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska, and when you say

 2     MUP, you're referring to the Serb police forces, the Serb MUP in Ilidza?

 3        A.   That's right.

 4        Q.   Flats were not allocated to families or members of the ABiH or

 5     HVO; correct?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7        Q.   Since we're on this page, I'm also going to briefly discuss with

 8     you Article 9 of the regulation.  It states:

 9             "Those families are not -- are considered to be refugee who left

10     the territories of Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica, Novi Grad and other

11     war-stricken areas and who have registered on the territory of the

12     municipality and whose able-bodied family members joined the Army of the

13     Serb people of BiH on the territory of Ilidza Serb Municipality."

14             Is it correct that this refers to the Serbs who came to Ilidza

15     from the other areas mentioned in this section?  I believe you've already

16     discussed Serbs leaving these areas during your examination.

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31630 into evidence.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 31630 receives number P6942.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. WEBER:  Just for timing, I'm going to go through some quick

23     documents before the break and skip something.

24        Q.   Sir, I'll come back to something with you a little bit later, but

25     I just want to go through a couple of other documents quickly.

Page 28823

 1             Flats were provided to Serb volunteers who were present in

 2     Ilidza; correct?

 3             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I guess you said "flats were provided."

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand what "Serb

 5     volunteer" means.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's been corrected.  Thanks.

 7             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 8        Q.   Sir, you were aware of Serb volunteers present in the Ilidza

 9     municipality; correct?

10        A.   Are we talking about people who arrived from outside Bosnia and

11     Herzegovina?

12        Q.   I'm talking about people who were volunteers, were considered

13     Serb volunteers, who were mobilised as part of the Territorial Defence in

14     Ilidza municipality in April 1992 and who formed part of the forces of

15     the Army of Republika Srpska after that.  Those are the people I'm

16     referring to.

17        A.   For me, in accordance with these regulations, these are either

18     soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska or members of the MUP of

19     Republika Srpska, or persons who have work obligation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, is there any confusion, that the witness

21     thinks that we're still talking about the previous document and that you

22     put a --

23             MR. WEBER:  There is --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- question to him --

25             MR. WEBER:  Maybe I'll just --

Page 28824

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which is unrelated.  So understand the question

 2     without thinking back to the document we discussed earlier.

 3             MR. WEBER:  And I'll just go to a very specific example.  Could

 4     the Prosecution please have 65 ter 11359 for the witness.

 5        Q.   Before you is a 9 July 1992 War Commission approval from

 6     Nedjelko Prstojevic.  According to the approval, the use of the motel

 7     facility in Gladno Polje and the deserted summer houses in this vicinity

 8     are approved for the needs of the Serbian volunteer units.

 9             The second paragraph specifically refers to the commander,

10     Branislav Gavrilovic and indicates he will be conducting admission and

11     training of Serbian volunteers arriving to this area.  This is just four

12     days after the regulations we just saw.

13             Is it correct that the War Commission approved accommodations and

14     facilities to Serb volunteers, including Mr. Gavrilovic?  These are the

15     people I'm talking about.

16        A.   Yes, yes, I understand.

17             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 11359 into evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 11359 receives number P6943.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P6943 is admitted.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, before you go to your next document, if

23     you can deal with it in two minutes, which is unlikely, I would say.

24             MR. WEBER:  I think you're right as usual on that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, we'll take another break of 20 minutes.

Page 28825

 1     We'd like to see you back at quarter past 12.00.

 2                           [The witness stands down]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break, and we resume at quarter past

 4     12.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 11.54 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.19 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber, if you'd want to deal with another

 8     document which already can be shown on the screen, I would ask for it now

 9     already.  It is just a suggestion.

10             MR. WEBER:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Could the Prosecution -- the

11     next document -- I did have a question before we got to this document,

12     but the next document I'll be referring to is 31632.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

15             MR. WEBER:

16        Q.   Sir, you know Tomo Kovac; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 31632 for

19     the witness.

20        Q.   Sir, I just want to -- since you've mentioned these decisions, I

21     just want to look at an example of one of them.  Before you is a decision

22     by the president of the commission for the distribution of apartments

23     dated 31 August 1992.  Do you recognise the signature appearing at the

24     bottom of the page to be yours?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 28826

 1        Q.   Ask this an example of the decisions that you would issue during

 2     the war to allocate housing?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In the heading there's reference to pursuant to Article 13 of the

 5     rules on assigning apartments for temporary use.  Those are the

 6     5 July 1992 regulations that we looked at; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Under the statement of reasons, you say:

 9             "Given the fact that he has been participating in the defence of

10     the Serbian republic since the beginning of the war and that, currently,

11     his family has no accommodation, the commission for the distribution of

12     apartments has decided as stated in the disposition of this decision."

13             Did you personally determine that Tomo Kovac deserved the

14     allocation of the apartment of the three-bedroom apartment for this

15     reason or was this a decision that was made by someone besides yourself?

16        A.   The decision was made by the commission.  I signed it as

17     president of the commission.  And Tomo Kovac had to bring documentation

18     so that there would be confirmation of the status of a refugee or

19     displaced person and also of being engaged in the Army of

20     Republika Srpska or, rather, in the defence of Republika Srpska.

21        Q.   Okay.  So whenever someone was allocated an apartment, your

22     commission verified that they had something to do with the war efforts on

23     behalf of the either the Army of Republika Srpska or the Ilidza MUP.  Do

24     I understand that correctly?

25        A.   In addition to engagement in the Army of Republika Srpska and in

Page 28827

 1     the MUP, also there could be certificates of work obligation, and in this

 2     way, people could have apartments allocated to them for temporary use.

 3        Q.   So, for example, when you refer to work obligation, if someone

 4     worked at the Famos factory in special-purpose production or something of

 5     that nature, that's what you're referring to?

 6        A.   Not only war factories but any factory.

 7             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 31632 into evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 31632 receives number P6944.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

11             MR. WEBER:

12        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, in paragraph 6 of your statement, you state:

13             "In the period between April and June 1992, when the migration of

14     the whole population of Ilidza municipality was at its most intense, but

15     also throughout the rest of the war, the authorities of the Serbian

16     Municipality of Ilidza and their organs did not expel non-Serbs.  They

17     moved out of their own accord and in an unorganised manner."

18             Is it correct that the most intense period in which non-Serbs

19     moved out of Ilidza was between April and June 1992?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit P4581.  I

22     will be going to page 66 in both versions.

23        Q.   Sir, before you are Nedjelko Prstojevic's statements at the

24     17th Assembly Session of the Republika Srpska held between the 24th and

25     26th of July, 1992.

Page 28828

 1             Focusing on Mr. Prstojevic's comments which in both versions are

 2     on the bottom half of the page, he states:

 3             "I have decided to say a few words and to ask a few questions

 4     that I am being asked by the citizens of Sarajevo.  Namely, when the

 5     Serbs started the uprising in Sarajevo and when they seized control over

 6     certain territories, there was no government or at least it was not known

 7     where it was then."

 8             After Mr. Prstojevic discusses President Karadzic and his visit

 9     to Ilidza, Mr. Prstojevic goes on to state:

10             "The Serbs from Sarajevo retained control over the territory, and

11     even extended their territory in some areas, driving the Muslims out of

12     the territories where they had actually been a [sic] majority."

13             Sir, is it correct that Mr. Prstojevic's statements back in

14     July 1992 contradict your evidence that the Muslims moved out on their

15     own accord?  You agree with that; right?

16        A.   No.  He spoke generally about the town of Sarajevo.  It is

17     possible that there were municipalities where people were expelled.  He

18     never says Ilidza.  They were not expelled from Ilidza.  And Ilidza did

19     not expand its territory either.

20        Q.   Well, the Ilidza Crisis Staff implemented policies related to the

21     movement of Croats and Muslims; correct?

22        A.   I don't know about that.

23             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P470 for the

24     witness.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, when you say that this does not deal

Page 28829

 1     specifically with Ilidza, could you tell us what were the territories

 2     where the Muslims were driven out in Sarajevo?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a hard question for me.  I

 4     know that they were not expelled from Ilidza.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- yes.  And you do not know whether

 6     Mr. Prstojevic -- to what territories referred?  Is that how we have to

 7     understand your testimony?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, he was in Ilidza, wasn't he?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any explanation as why he would have

12     referred to other parts of Sarajevo where he was -- had his

13     responsibilities in Ilidza?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously there was some animosity

15     between the government and Mr. Prstojevic or, rather, Ilidza.  He says

16     that he doesn't know where this government is and so on.  Obviously that

17     this is some kind of objection that no one knows where this government is

18     and that Serbs were self-organised in various municipalities.  He's

19     talking about Sarajevo here, not Ilidza.  He as president of the

20     Crisis Staff had more information than I did.  I mean, objectively

21     speaking.  I was a completely new man in Ilidza in May of 1992.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could he have known more about Ilidza than you did

23     know and that, therefore, he included Ilidza in his statement about

24     territories in Sarajevo?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't read here that he

Page 28830

 1     included Ilidza and I never heard of that.  At any rate, he had

 2     comprehensive information about Ilidza, where he lived and worked before

 3     the war, where he was president of the Crisis Staff, and throughout the

 4     war, he was president of the municipality.  So he had all the information

 5     available as I could not have.  I arrived in Ilidza and I only knew the

 6     urban central part of Ilidza, in part, and I didn't even know where the

 7     peripheral rural areas were.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 9             MR. WEBER:

10        Q.   Just so the Prosecution's position is clear to you, it is our

11     position that Mr. Prstojevic as the president is referring and including

12     the municipality of Ilidza.  Do I understand -- do you understand this?

13        A.   I understand that, but that is not something that I came to

14     realise on the basis of the text that was read.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at more documents then.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have -- P470 is on the

17     screen.

18        Q.   Sir, I'd like to direct your attention to this.  This is a

19     19 May 1992 decision from Nedjelko Prstojevic of the Ilidza Crisis Staff.

20     In the first paragraph about the decision there's reference to a meeting

21     held on 18 May 1992.  Did you attend this meeting?

22        A.   I don't know what meeting this might be.

23        Q.   Okay.  Let us know if it comes back to you.

24             The decision begins:

25             "The moving out of Croats and Muslims from all territories of

Page 28831

 1     Ilidza Serb Municipality is allowed ..."

 2             Were you present at a meeting on 18th May when this was

 3     discussed?

 4        A.   I think I wasn't.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   I think I wasn't.  But it is a fact that in May everybody could

 7     move out of Ilidza.  Even into town, to Serbia, Montenegro.  I don't

 8     think that there were any restrictions.  Both Serbs and non-Serbs were

 9     moving out.

10        Q.   Okay.  This decision only refers to Croats and Muslims; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   The decision continues:

13             "Apart from Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica (prohibited

14     from leaving)."

15             Is it correct Croats and Muslims from these areas were not

16     allowed to come to Ilidza according to this decision?

17        A.   Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and Hrasnica were not under the

18     control of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza.  I do not know how this

19     could possibly apply to them.

20        Q.   Sir, you haven't answered my question.  Croats and Muslims from

21     these areas, the three areas that you've now mentioned again, were not

22     allowed to come to Ilidza according to this decision; correct?

23        A.   Well, Serbian Ilidza had no authority over these areas.  What we

24     read here is there is no exit.  It's under the control of Muslim forces.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Weber, where do -- can I find a reference to

Page 28832

 1     coming to Ilidza?

 2             MR. WEBER:  Okay.

 3        Q.   Sir, what I'm focusing your attention is on the decision.  It

 4     states:

 5             "The moving out of Croats and Muslims from all territories of

 6     Ilidza Serb municipality is allowed."  And then it goes on to say:

 7     "Apart from Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and Hrasnica (prohibited from

 8     leaving)."

 9             What I'm putting to you, sir, is that this decision indicates

10     that Croats and Muslims from Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and Hrasnica

11     were being prohibited from leaving those areas and coming to Ilidza?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  The last portion is -- where do we find that in

13     the -- in the decision, Mr. Weber?

14             MR. LUKIC:  And, Your Honour --

15             MR. WEBER:  [Overlapping speakers] -- the whole decision.  Apart

16     from Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so --

18             MR. WEBER:  I'm putting my case to the witness.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you are also putting the text of a

20     decision to the witness in which you fill in elements which are not

21     literally found there.

22             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  I'm not intending to do that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But you did.

24             MR. WEBER:  Okay.  If I'm not clear in my questioning, then I'm

25     happy to rephrase.

Page 28833

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  I'm on my feet, I'm sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Lukic.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  It's Mr. Stojanovic's witness but I don't want to

 5     interfere.  I just want to clarify there is one translation issue.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Translation issue.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  There is no prohibition in B/C/S version so maybe it

 8     should be read first and then --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could we ask the witness then to slowly read

10     the first sentence after the word "decision," after "odluku."

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The moving out of Croats and

12     Muslims from all territories of Ilidza Serbian Municipality is allowed,

13     except for Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica (no going out)."

14             This phrasing is incorrect.  Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and

15     Hrasnica were never part of --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness -- Witness, you were not asked.  You were

17     only asked to read the lines.

18             Now, Mr. -- I do understand that the word "prohibited" is not

19     there but there is a similar language, that is, no moving out.  Whether

20     that is a fact or whether that it normative, I wouldn't know at this

21     moment.

22             Wait for the next question to be put to by Mr. Weber and answer

23     that question.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. WEBER:  Your Honour, if that is what the decision states,

Page 28834

 1     then that would probably clarify my question.  So I'll move on.  I'll

 2     have -- I'll ask that we have this checked, the language.  It's P470.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that Serbs that wanted to move to Ilidza from these

 4     areas - Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, and Hrasnica - were allowed to come

 5     to Ilidza?

 6        A.   Already in the early days, in May, there was a separation line

 7     between these neighbourhoods and Serbian Ilidza.  The question arises how

 8     anyone could have passed through these lines.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That is an interesting question, perhaps, but not an

10     answer to the question that Mr. Weber put to you.

11             Those Serbs who wanted to move to Ilidza from these areas, were

12     they allowed to come?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say anything for certain,

14     but I don't think so.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

16             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter --

17        Q.   Sir, I put that actually that's an incorrect statement, and even

18     pursuant to the regulations that we looked at, it envisaged Serbs coming

19     from these areas, Sokolovic Kolonija, Butmir, and Hrasnica, and being

20     mobilised in either the military or police.  Do you have any other

21     comment?

22        A.   I do.  This is completely incorrect.  Just as non-Serbs could not

23     move out towards Hrasnica, Butmir, and Sokolovic Kolonija, the Serbs

24     could not go the other way.  It's another conversation entirely, how

25     people managed this or that.  But the separation line lay through there

Page 28835

 1     and that's exactly where the 14 May attack happened.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, a minute ago you told us, "I can't say

 3     anything for certain."  And now, a few lines down, you say it is

 4     "completely incorrect," which puzzles us, because on the one hand side

 5     you say, "I don't know for certain;" on other hand, you say it is

 6     "completely incorrect."

 7             MR. WEBER:

 8        Q.   Sir, in fact, in paragraph 6 of your statement you say:

 9             "Due to strong and intensive war operations, Serbian and

10     non-Serbian residents left Ilidza to escape from the horrors of war in

11     search for a safer environment."

12             And then you go on to state:

13             "And at the same time, Serbian refugees were coming in from the

14     Muslim part of town of Sarajevo, Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija," and then

15     you go on to say Central Bosnia and so on?

16             So, sir, I'm perplexed here.  Serbs were coming from Hrasnica and

17     Sokolovic Kolonija into Ilidza; correct?

18        A.   That's correct.  But there is a date up to which it was possible

19     to get out but after that date, not.  After 14 May, after the attack, it

20     was not possible to get out.  These people had left the town earlier.

21     I'm talking about mass evacuations from Hrasnica, Butmir, and

22     Sokolovic Kolonija.  As far as I'm concerned, the real war began on

23     14 May, and even on that day people were going to work and coming back to

24     their homes, moving towards the centre of the town.  Not all but some.

25        Q.   Sir, we have your various answers now, and I'm going to go and

Page 28836

 1     continue looking at some more things.

 2             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 20803 for

 3     the witness.

 4        Q.   Before you is an intercepted conversation from 23 May 1992

 5     between Nedjelko Prstojevic and Milosav Gagovic.  This conversation takes

 6     place four days after the decision we just looked at.  The part I'd like

 7     to discuss with you is on the next page.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 2 of both

 9     versions.

10             Toward the bottom of the page in both languages, and this is

11     after Mr. Prstojevic refers to his neighbours in Sokolovici sunbathing in

12     their cellars, Mr. Prstojevic states:

13             "However, these people should know about Ilidza policy."

14             Gagovic responds:  "Yes."

15             Prstojevic then states:  "We have a sort of big, the highest

16     municipality."

17             Gagovic says:  "Certainly."

18             Prstojevic states:  "We have our policy in the area of Sarajevo."

19             Gagovic says:  "Certainly."

20             Prstojevic states:  "Our policy in relation to refugees from

21     Sarajevo."

22             Could we please have the next page.

23             Gagovic responds:  "Fine."

24             Prstojevic states:  "All the Serbs, men, women, children, adults,

25     will be accepted by Ilidza."

Page 28837

 1             Gagovic responds:  "Fine."

 2             Prstojevic then states:  "And shall be accommodated."

 3             Gagovic then responds:  "Okay."

 4             Prstojevic states:  "Accommodation, food and the rest."

 5             Gagovic responds:  "Fine."

 6             Prstojevic states:  "Secondly, no Muslims shall be allowed to

 7     leave Sarajevo."

 8             Gagovic responds:  "Sorry?"

 9             Prstojevic states:  "We shall not allow the Muslims to leave

10     Sarajevo."

11             Gagovic then responds:  "Fine."

12        Q.   Is it correct that you're familiar with the policy that

13     Mr. Prstojevic is discussing during this conversation?

14        A.   No.  I am talking only about Ilidza.  I'm thinking of Ilidza.

15     It's not logical for Serbs from Sarajevo to move to Ilidza.  I don't know

16     where he got that from.

17        Q.   Well, sir, I put it to you that this conversation is consistent

18     with the decision that we just looked at and it was, in fact, the policy

19     of the Ilidza municipality to accept Serbs, whether they be men, women,

20     children, or adults, and that no Muslims would be allowed to leave

21     Sarajevo.

22        A.   I cannot speak about Sarajevo.  Muslims had no reason to come to

23     Serb-controlled Ilidza.  The fact was that Ilidza was prepared to accept

24     anybody and everybody.

25        Q.   After the non-Serbs moved out of Ilidza in -- in -- between

Page 28838

 1     April and June 1992, those were the apartments that you allocated; right?

 2     The apartments that were formally occupied by them?

 3        A.   The number of people who moved out from Ilidza, Serbs and

 4     non-Serbs, were in an approximately equal ratio.  And we got the

 5     apartments, the abandoned apartments of both ethnic groups.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Prstojevic [sic], what apparently Mr. Weber is

 7     putting to you is that even if in equal numbers they moved out, that

 8     Serbs were allowed to move in but Serbs only and not Muslims.  That's ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm sorry.  Yes, when I said "Mr. Prstojevic,"

11     of course, that was a slip of the tongue.  You are not Mr. Prstojevic.

12             That's what Mr. Weber puts to you, that whoever may have moved

13     out, that only Serbs were allowed to move in again and not Muslims.

14             Any comment on that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have a comment.  Mainly Serbs

16     came in, but there were also individual cases when Croats moved in

17     specifically.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But in this telephone conversation, it doesn't say

19     everyone who left is welcome to come back, but it says Serbs can move in.

20     Others should not leave Sarajevo.  And if you can't leave Sarajevo, then

21     you may find difficulties in going back to Ilidza.

22             Apart from whether it may have happened once or twice or a

23     limited number of cases with a Croat, this is the overall picture which

24     is pointed to you on the basis of this telephone conversation by

25     Mr. Weber.

Page 28839

 1             Any further comments than the one you gave already?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.  But it's completely

 3     illogical for a non-Serb to come to Ilidza and then not be able to get

 4     in, because Ilidza was encircled.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

 6             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender 65 ter 20803 into

 7     evidence.  And so the Chamber has a complete record, as part of the

 8     Karadzic proceedings, this intercept was authenticated Mr. Prstojevic

 9     himself and that can be found in the Exhibit P2521 in the Karadzic case.

10     So I'm just providing that further information so the Chamber is aware of

11     it.  And we do have a CD of the intercepted conversation.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have heard of no objection by the Defence.

13     Therefore, Madam Registrar, could you assign a number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 20803 receives number P6945.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's -- yes.  The audio is now --

19             MR. WEBER:  Yes, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- provided to Madam Registrar as well.  Okay.

21     Please proceed.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have P2770 for the

23     witness.

24        Q.   Sir, coming up before you will be another intercepted

25     conversation.  This one is between Rade Ristic and Nedjelko Prstojevic.

Page 28840

 1     The date of the conversation is 25 June 1992.

 2             MR. WEBER:  At the bottom of page one in the English - and if we

 3     could please have the top of page 2 in the B/C/S - Mr. Prstojevic states:

 4             "All that is Muslim to be killed, like Alija."

 5             He then goes on to say -- and if we could have the next page in

 6     English:

 7             "I don't" -- and actually the -- the English says:

 8             "I don't one to see one military-aged Muslim alive there."

 9             And then he goes on to say:

10             "Secondly, immediately, I give you ... authorisation to give

11     Muslim apartments to Serbs there."

12             And then he refers to part of Dobrinja.

13        Q.   Do you see these statements?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Sir, I put it to you that, in fact, Mr. Prstojevic was providing

16     authorisation to give Muslim apartments to Serbs in Ilidza, and that's

17     what's reflected in these statements.  You agree; right?

18        A.   I didn't understand the question.

19        Q.   Sir, this -- these comments here, Mr. Prstojevic says:

20             "I give you the authorisation to give Muslim apartments to Serbs

21     there."

22             This is what -- what was happening; correct?

23        A.   Can I clarify this a bit?  Rade Ristic, with whom Prstojevic is

24     talking, is a man from the rural parts, from Vojkovici village which was

25     physically completely cut off from the central part of Ilidza where the

Page 28841

 1     municipality was.  To go to Vojkovici you had to use a macadam road for

 2     70, 80 kilometres.  Vojkovici did not have any socially owned housing.

 3     Those were free-standing houses.  It's an area that used to belong before

 4     the war to Novi Grad municipality.  There was fighting there, and I

 5     visited perhaps two or three times during the whole war.  Those were

 6     buildings where the separation line cut through the building.  One floor

 7     was held by the Muslim forces, and another floor by Serb forces.

 8        Q.   Sir, you've given a long explanation.  You haven't answered my

 9     question, but based on what you just said, I'll draw your attention to

10     what Mr. Prstojevic says next.  He says:

11             "Every Serb that is fighting there can, on your recommendation,

12     even if this housing situation is not sorted out, we already have the

13     forms printed out, if you will fill it out, he'll immediately get an

14     apartment assigned to his name."

15             Ristic responds:  "Aha, all right."

16             And then Mr. Prstojevic states:

17             "And you should know, over here in Nedzarici is already

18     happening, we are filling out 30 forms today."

19             Sir, Nedzarici is not by Vojkovici; correct?

20        A.   No.  Nedzarici also used to be part of Novi Grad municipality

21     before the war.  But the Kasindol Street connects it physically to the

22     centre of Ilidza.

23        Q.   And, sir, this Chamber has heard a lot of evidence about this

24     geography so I'm not going to labour it with you, but I'm going to ask my

25     original question to you based on Mr. Prstojevic's comments.  Based on

Page 28842

 1     the fact that 30 forms a day were being filled out or we were filling out

 2     30 forms on this given day, is it correct that authorisation was being

 3     given to Serbs to give them the Muslim apartments?

 4        A.   Ristic obviously procured this authorisation, although I don't

 5     think it was really implemented because it was on the separation line.

 6     Who would be prepared to move into such apartments?

 7        Q.   Sir, you really haven't answered my question.

 8             MR. WEBER:  Unless Your Honours have additional follow-up, I was

 9     going to move on.  I've asked my question a number of times.

10             Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 03802 for the witness.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             MR. WEBER:

13        Q.   Sir, this is a decision by Nedjelko Prstojevic for the

14     War Commission of Ilidza Serb Municipality and we see at the bottom it's

15     dated 4 April 1993.  The decision begins:

16             "At its third regular session held on 3 April 1993, considering

17     the problem of the return of Croats and Muslims, the War Commission of

18     Ilidza Serb Municipality passed the following ..."

19             Before we discuss the contents of the document, did you attend

20     the session of the War Commission on 3 April 1993?  I'm sorry,

21     2 April 1993.

22        A.   No, I couldn't possibly be.  I was not in Ilidza on that date at

23     all.

24        Q.   Okay.  The body of the decision states:

25             "The return of Muslims and Croats to the territory of Ilidza Serb

Page 28843

 1     municipality is forbidden for security reasons, as well as because the

 2     necessary conditions for their return do not exist."

 3             During the war, I put it you that the Ilidza War Commission did,

 4     in fact, forbid the return of Muslims and Croats; correct?

 5        A.   Well, it's written here, although I can't understand why people

 6     would be returning to that chaos.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But whether -- the issue is not whether they wished

 8     to return but whether they were forbidden to return, and you apparently

 9     do not disagree that that is what this decision says.

10             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution would tender the document into

11     evidence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I give an opportunity to the witness to answer my

13     question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

15     question?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether you would agree that this document clearly

17     states that the return is forbidden for Muslims and Croats.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what's written.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Madam Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 03802 receives number P6946.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Weber.

24             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have 65 ter 22766A for

25     the witness.  And we're actually going to go to the transcripts of this

Page 28844

 1     exhibit.  The first page is fine in both versions.

 2             Your Honours, I'm going to try to complete this one exhibit and

 3     then that will be the conclusion of my examination in the next

 4     ten minute, if that's all right.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's all right.

 6             MR. WEBER:

 7        Q.   Sir, before you is transcript of a SRT news broadcast of a

 8     meeting in the Ilidza municipality, when President Karadzic,

 9     Momcilo Krajisnik, and Velibor Ostojic visited the municipality for

10     presentation of the Famos 2FB engine in the opening of the Information

11     and Technical Centre of the SRT in the western part of Srpska Sarajevo.

12     According to this transcript, Nedjelko Prstojevic made the opening

13     remarks and he was followed by speeches by Mr. Miroslav Berjan, the

14     managing director of Famos, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Krajisnik, and then lastly,

15     President Karadzic.

16             To possibly help you with some context for this news broadcast,

17     Mr. Prstojevic was also shown the video corresponding to this transcript

18     prior to his Karadzic testimony and he indicated that this event occurred

19     on 8 January 1995.

20             Do you recall this meeting?

21        A.   No.

22             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please go to page 4 of the

23     B/C/S and page 5 of the English transcript.

24        Q.   Today I'm just going to discuss with you some of

25     President Karadzic's statements at this event.  His speech begins at the

Page 28845

 1     bottom of the page before you.  President Karadzic begins:

 2             "We are determined," and then there's an unintelligible word,

 3     "strategic aims which our assembly adopted to get separated and we have

 4     separated and formed our state.  But some changes have to happen in very

 5     Sarajevo in a way that Serbian areas go to Serbs in its entirety by means

 6     of political negotiations and talks, in a way that the -- that Serbian

 7     city will be formed and separated as a whole, in a way that the former

 8     Sarajevo is transformed into two cities."

 9             Sir, one of the Serbian areas that President Karadzic is

10     referring to here as having to go to the Serbs is the Ilidza

11     municipality; correct?

12        A.   If that is what is written, then that's the way it is.

13        Q.   Well, sir, were you aware of the Bosnian Serb strategic aim to

14     separate Serb and non-Serb populations throughout Bosnia?

15        A.   Oh, no.

16        Q.   Were you aware of the Bosnian Serb strategic goal of dividing

17     Sarajevo into two cities?

18        A.   No.

19             MR. WEBER:  Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the

20     B/C/S.

21        Q.   After discussing what Mr. Karadzic or President Karadzic views as

22     a peaceful resolution to the situation, he goes on to state:

23             "If our neighbours do not show enough understanding, we will

24     decide for ourselves how big Srpska Sarajevo and what will be in Srpsko

25     Sarajevo, and then we," unintelligible word, "Sarajevo is a city and a

Page 28846

 1     city in Republika Srpska because all the land Sarajevo is situated on is

 2     Serbian and all the surroundings are Serbian.  And if they do not want to

 3     come to a quick solution, the whole Sarajevo will be Serbian in the end.

 4     We think that a more favourable variant for us is if they do not agree,

 5     and a more favourable variant for them is to agree because in the long

 6     run, their part of the city, which has no outer border, has no any

 7     prospects."

 8             These statements by President Karadzic indicate that the Bosnian

 9     Serbs had no intention of returning the outer parts of Sarajevo already

10     considered Serbian; correct?

11        A.   Well, I really cannot comment on this.

12        Q.   In fact, these statements show that President Karadzic hoped the

13     Bosnian Muslims did not agree to give the areas surrounding Sarajevo to

14     the Serbs because this would allow the Bosnian Serbs to claim the whole

15     of Sarajevo; right?

16        A.   Please don't make me confirm things that I don't think myself.

17     What's the date of this transcript?

18        Q.   Sir, to the best of our knowledge, this is from the 8th of

19     January, 1995.

20        A.   So that's after Dayton, is it?

21        Q.   That's not -- that's not correct.

22        A.   What is it then?

23        Q.   Sir, I've read it to you and it's before Dayton.  If you're not

24     aware of this, I'll accept your answer on that.  Is that -- is that how I

25     should understand your evidence?

Page 28847

 1        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.

 2             MR. WEBER:  The Prosecution tenders 65 ter 22766A into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 22766A receives number P6947.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 6             MR. WEBER:  And, Your Honours, with that, the Prosecution has no

 7     further questions for the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Weber.

 9             Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us an impression as to how much

10     time you would still need?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall reorganise during the

12     break that follows, Your Honour, but I think that it's going to be about

13     15 minutes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Which means there may be some time left to

15     start hearing the witness of the next witness, if that witness is -- has

16     arrived.  If not --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Our next witness is not here and is not scheduled for

18     today, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. LUKIC:  I have to work with him in the afternoon.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So he would be available tomorrow.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, of course.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Witness, re-examination will be

24     conducted after our break.  You may follow the usher and we'd like to see

25     you back in 20 minutes.

Page 28848

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 25 minutes to 2.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 1.13 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.37 p.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, if you are ready, you may start your

 7     re-examination.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have document

 9     P6943 in e-court.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mijanovic, the Prosecutor asked you about

12     this document.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And now I would just like you to tell the Court what kind of

15     building is this, when there's this reference to motel in Gladno Polje?

16        A.   As far as I know, it is a building that was owned by some

17     orchard.  It was an orchard that was state-owned, socially owned,

18     whatever it was called.  That would be it.

19        Q.   This building, state-owned as you say, would that be a

20     residential building and would it be included in the rules on the

21     temporary use of apartments?

22        A.   This is the first time I see this document.  It does not invoke

23     the rules.  It does not invoke the rules on allocated apartments for

24     temporary use.  And it seems to me that the commission hadn't been

25     established then, or maybe it had, but most probably it hadn't.  And it

Page 28849

 1     doesn't invoke the rules.  Although, in my practice, I did have a case

 2     when a member of - what was its name? - Brne's unit would come and ask

 3     for an apartment for temporary use.  This unit, they were, you know, like

 4     a bad pupil about to be expelled from school.  They were expelled from

 5     this orchard, and this person would have to have a certificate stating

 6     that he was a member of the MUP or the army or that he had the status of

 7     a displaced person.  And as far as I can see, the rules are not being

 8     invoked here at all, and as far as can I see, the document was signed by

 9     Prstojevic.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you go on, Witness, you do say this

12     might have been -- the War Commission might have been established or not

13     established at the time.  The heading here says:  Serbian Republic of

14     Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ilidza Serbian Municipality War Commission, and

15     the signatory signs there as the War Commission.

16             Which commission are you saying was not established yet?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the commission that I headed,

18     that worked on the basis of the rules.  That is to say, this decision --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21        Q.   In this same document, the War Commission, inter alia, is

22     referring to this unit that is within the MUP and is allowing them to use

23     abandoned weekend cottages that are close to the motel.

24             Can you tell us whether you know at all who the owner was of

25     these abandoned weekend cottages?

Page 28850

 1        A.   Quite frankly, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now take a look at

 4     document P6944.  P6944.

 5        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, if you remember, it's that decision of the

 6     commission.  It has to do with the allocation of an apartment to

 7     Tomo Kovac for temporary use.

 8             Can one see from the statement of reasons whether there was any

 9     deviation there from the obligations stemming from the rules on

10     allocating apartments for temporary use?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Did he also have to meet the same requirements?  Was it

13     compulsory for him to receive this only for temporary use and appropriate

14     use?

15        A.   This is a standard form.  It's just the name and surname and the

16     square metres of the apartment, et cetera, that are changed.  But it's a

17     form.

18        Q.   Thank you.  This is what I'm going ask you now:  According to the

19     rules on the allocation of apartments for temporary use, was it possible

20     to allocate an apartment to someone who was not a soldier or veteran?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber under which conditions an

23     apartment could be allocated for temporary use to someone who did not

24     belong to this category of soldier or veteran?

25        A.   It was sufficient --

Page 28851

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

 2             Mr. Weber.

 3             MR. WEBER:  If I missed it, if counsel could refer me to the part

 4     of the regulations where that is discussed just so I can know for further

 5     questioning if necessary.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, did you have anything specific on

 7     your mind or did you have the absence of any provision for that on your

 8     mind?  And if you have a specific part on your mind, would you please

 9     inform Mr. Weber.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, nothing

11     specific.  Just clarification of the way in which this commission worked

12     and in the context of the question as to who could receive apartments for

13     temporary use.  This is what the Prosecutor asked during the

14     cross-examination.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The rules were the only document on

16     the basis of which these decisions were being made.  By the very nature

17     of things, it wasn't that comprehensive.  It could not include the entire

18     subject matter that would crop up in the field.  In addition to soldiers

19     and veterans, according to the rules, people who had work obligation in

20     different companies could also be allocated apartments.  Further on,

21     residents of the immediate war zone could receive such apartments too

22     because it was unsafe to use their apartments or houses or if their

23     apartments had been devastated during war operations.  Also in the rural

24     parts of the municipality of Ilidza, people came from Zenica, Kakanj and

25     other places in Central Bosnia, and they were allocated abandoned houses,

Page 28852

 1     barns and so on, because over there they lived in similar conditions too.

 2             All of this could not be defined in the mentioned rules.  It was

 3     only a year later that the government passed a decree with the force of

 4     law.  Something like lex specialis for this kind of work.  Our rules,

 5     however, were passed a year before that and somehow they fitted into the

 6     framework of that decree.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In your work in this commission for the allocation of

 8     apartments for temporary use, did you ever have any instructions or

 9     requests for allocation to be carried out on the basis of some kind of

10     discrimination against the non-Serb population?

11        A.   It's been a very long time.  I cannot remember exactly, but I

12     think these rules included something like the discretion of the president

13     of the Crisis Staff that he could allocate a certain number of

14     apartments.  I'm not sure, but I think there's something like that.  One

15     could not do this kind of work without being fair to a maximum.

16     Otherwise you couldn't survive.  It was such a difficult thing to do.  To

17     this day, I think that my seat was the hottest one in the hell of war

18     during those days.  There were a few cases, I think, when I didn't want

19     to sign a decision, but Mr. Prstojevic would sign these documents.

20     However, it wasn't on behalf of, et cetera.  The signature actually did

21     say:  Nedjelko Prstojevic.

22        Q.   Thank you.  As president of that commission, were you ever told

23     that you may not allocate an apartment to a non-Serb if he was from a

24     family of a fallen fighter or a veteran or something like that?

25        A.   I also allocated apartments to such persons.  It concerns small

Page 28853

 1     numbers again.  The Latin saying says:  "Nomina sunt odiosa," names are

 2     not desirable.

 3        Q.   We are not going to insist, but if it becomes necessary, we will

 4     ask you for names.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you said "small numbers," what do you

 6     have on your mind?  1, 5, 50, 100?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We have one case involving a Croat,

 8     a Croat family throughout the generations, not a case of a mixed

 9     marriage, and there were at least 15 – 20 cases of mixed marriages, but

10     the owners of tenancy rights who got apartments for temporary use were

11     Croats or Muslims.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if I read your statement well, some 3.000

13     decisions were taken.  Is that correctly understood?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  It's probably my report to the

15     assembly sometime in 1993.  That was a report for that period.  There

16     was -- there were more decisions.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  More than 3.000, but you mentioned --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- three cases where non-Serbs were provided with

20     housing:  Two mixed marriages, one Croat family, no mixed marriage.  Is

21     that --

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say two.

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Tell us.

25        A.   One pure Croat, so to speak, and there were several people from

Page 28854

 1     mixed marriages.  I didn't say two.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You said -- at least the transcript reads "at least

 3     two cases," which means that there may have been more, but at least there

 4     are two.

 5             Is that correctly reflecting what you said?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it doesn't.  I don't know

 7     exactly how many such decisions there were, but there were more.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I was asking just whether what is in the

 9     transcript reflects what you said.  Because if you say it does not, then

10     we have the opportunity to check that on the basis of our audio

11     registration and then we would know whether you said something else,

12     whether you said not "at least two" but whether you said something else.

13             Do you want us to verify that?  Or do you admit --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say "at least two."  I

15     said more.  Or several.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave,

17     with your leave, I did hear what the witness said, and I believe it's

18     fair to listen to the recording.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have that verified, whether the

20     transcript is accurate or not.  We'll verify that, Witness, because it

21     would be unfair to you if we find something on the transcript which is

22     not what you said.

23             Could you then give us -- if you say it was more than two, could

24     you say, was it four, five, three, ten, 50, any further indication?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't.

Page 28855

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now the ones that do you remember, do you have the

 2     names of those families?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Andjelko Raguz, pre-war police

 4     officer, had a house on the Federation side.

 5             MR. WEBER:  Sorry to pop up --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Weber.

 7             MR. WEBER:  -- but could we just have confirmation that the

 8     spellings are correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I -- first.  Could you please spell the name,

10     Witness.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Andjelko, A-n-d-j-e-l-k-o.  Last

12     name, R-a-g-u-z, Raguz.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you said he had a house on the Federation

14     side.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Did your commission also deal with houses on the

17     Federation side?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'm slightly confused how you would say this

20     was one of the --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain.

22             He left his house, he left the federal territory, came to the

23     Serbian entity as a refugee, continued to work as a policeman until the

24     end of the war and living in the Serbian territory on -- and on that

25     basis, he received an apartment for temporary use.

Page 28856

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  What ethnicity was he?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croat.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm still -- let me see whether I understand you.

 4             Yes, he continued to work as a policeman for the MUP in Ilidza?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So he was -- although being a Croat, he was -- he

 7     was employed by the Serb authorities?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know of any examples of persons who

10     were provided with accommodation not being of mixed marriages, not being

11     employed by the Serb authorities but just because they had lost their

12     home and then non- -- not being Serbs?

13             Do you have any examples of such cases?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not easy to distinguish who is

15     Croat, who is Serb.  Unless we had personal knowledge about this, we

16     didn't look for it, so I can't say for certain.  Serb and Croat names are

17     often identical, and even last names are.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have no idea whether there were any --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  And I

22     will finish with one more document:  P6946.

23        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, this document says, and you've had occasion to see

24     it before during cross-examination, it says in paragraph I:

25             "It is prohibited for Muslims and Croats to return to the

Page 28857

 1     territory of Ilidza Serb Municipality for security reasons, as well as

 2     because the necessary conditions for their return do not yet exist."

 3             The question is:  Is the reason that --

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Would you please allow me to put

 5     the question.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if you are going to whisper into the ears

 7     of the witness what possibly may have been the reason, then that would be

 8     leading, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. WEBER:  That was one of the Prosecution's concerns,

10     Your Honour.  And the other was that "the return do not exist" is what it

11     says.  I believe Mr. Stojanovic added the word "yet."

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So would you be precise in your language,

13     Mr. Stojanovic, that's one.  And, second --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The -- I added the word

15     "yet" because the actual translation should probably be:  "The reasons

16     have not obtained -- the conditions have not obtained."  Sorry.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for this clarification.  The Chamber

18     highly appreciates and also is aware of it not being easy to give all the

19     details of the language used in an interpretation which has to be made

20     within split seconds.

21             Mr. Stojanovic, a non-leading question would more likely start

22     with "could you tell us what the reasons are," rather than "is the

23     reason" because that may raise some concerns.  Could you please phrase

24     the question in a non-leading way.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will, Your Honour.

Page 28858

 1        Q.   Witness, kindly tell the Court if you can explain what is

 2     understood here by "security reasons"?

 3        A.   The municipality, engulfed in war such as Ilidza was, with a

 4     mixed population, was realistically not extremely secure for everybody

 5     and both one and another community were under threat, and it was for

 6     security reasons that I left the city and came to Ilidza myself.

 7        Q.   To conclude, in that year, 1993, in April, as can you see in

 8     front of you, was it possible for Serbs who had fled from Central Bosnia,

 9     Mostar, Konjic, Herzegovina, to return to their homes?

10        A.   It didn't cross their minds.  They would have never fled if they

11     had any intention of coming back.  Of course not.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mijanovic, for your answers on behalf of the

13     Defence team of General Mladic.  We have nothing further.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

15             Let me just try to understand.  You say, more or less, Serbs

16     would never go back to Central Bosnia.  You wouldn't -- that was not

17     something they would do.  And is that to be understood as that you would

18     not expect Muslims and Croats to go to a Serb-controlled or Serb

19     municipality near Sarajevo?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It depends on the municipality.

21     You have examples of municipalities where the population returned

22     en masse --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's talk about Ilidza then.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under the Dayton Accords, Ilidza

25     was haplessly divided so that this part where I was, the central part --

Page 28859

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's talk about Ilidza, 1993.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What is the question?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is whether -- you explained how

 4     illogical it would be for Serbs to return to places which were not Serb

 5     controlled, and do you have a similar reasoning for Muslims not returning

 6     to Serb-controlled areas in 1993?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993, nobody returned to Ilidza.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me read to you exactly what I'm referring to.

 9             You were asked about Serbs who had fled from Central Bosnia,

10     whether they would return to their homes in 1993.

11             Your answer was:

12             "It didn't cross their minds.  They would have never fled if they

13     had any intention of coming back.  Of course not."

14             Now I would put the same question for you as to non-Serbs, would

15     it be -- would it come to their mind to return to Ilidza?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  What then was the reason to forbid them to return,

18     if you say that it didn't even cross their minds to do so?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in practice, they were not

20     able to return anyway.  I don't see why they were prohibited from

21     returning.  The state was in a state of war.  How could they return?

22     They would have to go through a million separation lines.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Nevertheless, it was decided that they were

24     forbidden to return.  Could you think of any reason for such a

25     prohibition?

Page 28860

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look at the date:  4 April 1993.

 2     1993.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I've done so.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This looks to me like 4 April 1992.

 5     For 1992, I can think of a reason.  For 1993, no.  I'm seeing this for

 6     the first time.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you know whether the third regular session

 8     of the War Commission was held in 1992 or in 1993?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose it was in 1992, because

10     it was the third session.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  This document is now in evidence.  If the parties

12     would have any further data which would shed light on possible mistakes

13     as far as the date is concerned, of course, the Chamber would like to

14     know because that might be important for our interpretation of the

15     evidence given by the witness and the document itself.

16             I've no further questions.

17             Mr. Weber, any further questions for the witness?

18             MR. WEBER:  No, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just trying to check in the original.  The date

20     there appears at least to be clear, 1993, and also the number is 272-93,

21     not 92.  But if there's any further information which would shed

22     additional light on that matter, the Chamber would be happy to receive

23     that.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the year 1993 appears twice in the document.

25     One in the first paragraph and one at the end of the document.

Page 28861

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             This then concludes your evidence, Mr. Mijanovic.  I would like

 3     to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and for having

 4     answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the Bench,

 5     put to you by the parties, primarily by the parties, and I wish you a

 6     safe return home again.  You may follow the usher.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day.  We'll resume tomorrow,

10     Wednesday, the 26th of November, 9.30 in the morning, this same

11     courtroom, I.

12                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.13 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of

14                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.