Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28862

 1                           Wednesday, 26 November 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 8     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10             I was informed that the Prosecution had a preliminary issue to

11     raise, and that it took so little time that we already could ask the

12     usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.

13             As little as that, Mr. Weber?

14             MR. WEBER:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Correct.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. WEBER:  Your Honours, I just wanted to follow up on

17     Exhibit P6946 from yesterday, it was the decision forbidding the return

18     of Croats and Muslims from the Ilidza War Commission.  According to the

19     document, it was dated 4 April 1993.  Yesterday at transcript page 28860

20     the Chamber asked if the parties had any further information that would

21     shed light on the date because at the end of the session there was some

22     confusion about whether it was 1992 or 1993.  The Prosecution would note

23     that Exhibit P4906 is the decisions establishing the war commissions, it

24     is dated 10 June 1992.  The Prosecution also verified that the second

25     session of the Ilidza War Commission was held on 27 February 1993.  Based

Page 28863

 1     on this information, it appears clear that P6946 reflects the correct

 2     dates in April 1993.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the position of the Prosecution.

 5             If the Defence has anything to add, then we would like to hear

 6     from you.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, we do not dispute this date.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.  1993.  The date on that

 9     document is the actual date.

10             Good morning, Mr. Mandic.  Before you give evidence the Rules

11     require that you make a solemn declaration.  May I invite you to make

12     that declaration, of which the text is handed out to you now.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  BOSKO MANDIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.

20     You find Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

21             Mr. Lukic, please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 28864

 1             MR. LUKIC:  I would kindly ask the usher to provide the witness

 2     with a clean copy of his statement, it's with him, it's checked by the

 3     Prosecution.  So I just want to inform the Chamber then that the witness

 4     has his clean statement in front of him.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Mandic, would you be so kind to tell us for the record your

 8     full name?

 9        A.   Bosko Mandic.  Should I go on?

10        Q.   Thank you.  That's enough.  I will occasionally make a pause; it

11     doesn't mean that you should go on speaking, I'm just waiting for

12     interpretation.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have on our screens 1D1630, please.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mandic, have you given a statement to the

15     Defence team of General Mladic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Do you see that statement before you on the screen and in the

18     hard copy?

19        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

20        Q.   That was my next question.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now look at the last page.

22        Q.   Do you see the signature, do you recognise it?

23        A.   Yes, it's mine.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 2 of the

25     statement.  I need paragraph 6.

Page 28865

 1        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you drew my attention to the date written here.

 2     Which date should it be?

 3        A.   It should be 30 April 1992, 30th April.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   Welcome.

 6        Q.   After this correction, are the facts stated in this statement

 7     accurate as you told them to the Defence team of General Mladic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Is the content of the statement accurate and truthful?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today, would you

12     answer the same?

13        A.   I believe so, maybe not 100 per cent but ...

14        Q.   Overall it would be?

15        A.   Yes, overall it would be.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender this statement into the

17     evidence.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D1630 receives number D826.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D826 is admitted.

21             MR. LUKIC:  With your leave, Your Honours, I would read statement

22     summary of this witness.  It's not that short, but I will not have any

23     questions for this witness.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 28866

 1             Mr. Mandic started to work for the Prijedor Municipal Assembly on

 2     16th April 1992 when he was appointed vice chairman of the Executive

 3     Committee.

 4             After Slovenia and Croatia had seceded from the SFRY and as the

 5     national parties of the HDZ and SDA were established, the Serbian people

 6     realised that they had to get politically organised so as not to

 7     experience the suffering they had been through during World War II.  As

 8     the result of these efforts, on 9 January 1992 the Assembly of the

 9     Republika Srpska was formed and the Serbian Assembly of Prijedor was

10     established as well.

11             On 29th April 1992, the police in Prijedor intercepted the

12     telegram from Alija Delimustafic and Jerko Doko, the ministers of the

13     interior and defence of the B&H, ordering an attack against the Serbs and

14     the JNA.  This pushed Serbs to take over the power in Prijedor on the

15     next day, 30th of April, 1992.

16             Following a peaceful take-over of power in Prijedor, the

17     Council for National Defence decided to set up a Crisis Staff for

18     municipality of Prijedor.  Mr. Mandic was a member of this Crisis Staff.

19             After this take-over of power SDS continued to negotiate with the

20     SDA representatives.  There were no armed conflicts after this take-over

21     until Muslim forces attacked military conscripts in Hambarine on 22nd of

22     May and military convoy in Kozarac two days later.  On the 30th of May,

23     1992, Muslim forces attacked town of Prijedor.  This resulted in war

24     operations on the whole territory of the Prijedor municipality.

25             At the same time a war broke out across B&H territory.  The

Page 28867

 1     situation in Prijedor municipality was affected by the large number of

 2     Serbs -- Serb refugees coming from the towns that had already been taken

 3     in the Muslim-controlled areas in Bihac, Krupa, Sarajevo, Zenica, Tuzla,

 4     as well as from Croatia.  The situation was very tense.  At the same time

 5     Prijedor area had been cut off from Serbia and Montenegro and eastern

 6     parts of Republika Srpska.

 7             All those non-Serbs who did not violate the law, did not possess

 8     weapons, and decided to leave Prijedor town were helped by the local

 9     authorities during this process.  This departure was made possible and

10     organised through the Red Cross in Prijedor and International Red Cross.

11             All the persons who took part in combat and had illegal weapons

12     and military equipment had to be interviewed and investigated.  At some

13     point the decision was taken to organise this in Omarska because of the

14     facilities it afforded.

15             Curfew was introduced for all citizens.  The telephone lines of

16     all the citizens of Prijedor were disconnected.  At the same time, there

17     was a shortage of electricity in the entire Republika Srpska, including

18     the municipality of Prijedor.

19             Following the take-over of power, as the name suggests, the

20     Muslim and Croat cadres in the Prijedor Municipal Assembly lost power.

21     All the others kept their jobs.

22             The problem was that some of the Muslims and Croats refused to

23     support Republika Srpska which was only in the making, were not loyal to

24     it either, and did not report for work.  After the lapse of a specific

25     number of days, they had to be dismissed under the pain of law and

Page 28868

 1     replaced by the others in order for the service in question to continue

 2     operating.

 3             And this was the statement summary.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

 5             Mr. Mandic, just to -- these were -- you have no further

 6     questions for the witness?

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I do not have further questions for

 8     this witness.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, just for your understanding that doesn't

10     mean that there's no further evidence before since no further questions

11     are put to you.  The evidence you have given is in the statement which is

12     now admitted into evidence, and you'll now be cross-examined by

13     Mr. Tieger or Mr. -- Mr. Tieger.

14             You'll find Mr. Tieger to your right.  Mr. Tieger is counsel for

15     the Prosecution.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, if I can have the

17     interpretation a bit louder, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The usher will assist you in increasing the

19     volume.  Does this help?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, if you're ready, please proceed.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

24        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let's begin with the last point covered in the

25     summary by Mr. Lukic.  In paragraph 41 of your statement you assert that

Page 28869

 1     "stepping down," that is, removal from positions following the take-over

 2     of power by Serb authorities, "had to do with respect for the

 3     constitution and law and not with ethnicity."

 4             Mr. Mandic, the reality is that there were, in fact, explicit

 5     decisions that were grounded on ethnicity, providing that only personnel

 6     of Serbian ethnicity could hold executive and other posts; isn't that

 7     correct?

 8        A.   How shall I put it?  It's partly correct, and I can explain.

 9        Q.   Well, perhaps you can explain it in the context of a document

10     that, in fact, reflects such a decision.

11             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call up 65 ter 3304, please.

12        Q.   As we can see on the screen in front of you, this is a document

13     dated the 22nd of June, 1992, reflecting a decision by the Crisis Staff

14     of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, that:

15             "Only personnel of Serbian ethnicity may hold executive posts,

16     posts where the information flow is possible and the protection of

17     socially owned property, that is, all posts of importance for the

18     functioning of economic entities."

19             MR. TIEGER:  And if we can turn to page 3 of the English, please,

20     and page 2 of the Serbian.

21        Q.   We see a document from the very next day, the --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We do not have the B/C/S --

23             MR. TIEGER:  Page 2.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 28870

 1        Q.   This is a document dated the very next day, the 23rd of June,

 2     1992, signed by Milomir Stakic, the president of the Prijedor

 3     Crisis Staff, forwarding the decision we just looked at for

 4     implementation.  Now, that's the reality of the situation at the time,

 5     isn't it, Mr. Mandic, unreflected in your statement to this Court?

 6        A.   Excuse me, to whom was this sent?

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, you were on the Crisis Staff at the time, were

 8     you not?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   The chronology, as you can clearly see it, is that the ARK

11     Crisis Staff made a decision on the 22nd of June, grounded on ethnicity;

12     it was received by Prijedor within 24 hours; the Prijedor Crisis Staff,

13     of which you were a member, made a decision that they should forward that

14     decision of the ARK Crisis Staff, that ethnically based decision for

15     termination, so that it would be implemented.  Isn't that the reality?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.  If we can see the first page, and I think it

18     would be only fair to read the third paragraph from point 1 to the

19     witness --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You can do so -- if there's anything I'll have a

21     look at it.

22             And, Mr. Tieger, if there's unfairness in it, you'll certainly be

23     aware of it, otherwise the matter can be dealt with in re-examination.

24             MR. LUKIC:  Still, I would like to have the first page in front

25     of the witness so he can --

Page 28871

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you are not examining the witness at this

 2     moment, Mr. Lukic.  But I'll have a look at it, and you are drawing my

 3     attention to the first page and then --

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Point 1, paragraph 3, under the point 1.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Point 1, paragraph 3.  One second, please.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I was going to cover that, Mr. President --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  -- and it specifically.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Please proceed then and we'll wait.  Please

10     proceed.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you've had a chance to see the ARK Crisis Staff

13     decision, you've had a chance to see the Prijedor Crisis Staff decision,

14     forwarding that for implementation.  That's a reflection of the fact that

15     terminations were based on ethnicity and not, as you say in your

16     statement, not based on ethnicity at all but on respect for the

17     constitution.  Isn't that the reality of the situation at the time?

18        A.   We know that the Serbian Democratic Party took over power.  It's

19     logical that it appointed and removed senior personnel.  Where somebody

20     would be appointed, the SDS would decide.  Where employees didn't show up

21     for work, decisions were made to dismiss them and other people were

22     appointed in their place.  I think that's only logical.  There were

23     employees who were not disturbed in any way because they continued to be

24     loyal to the existing laws.  They accepted things and of course -- for

25     instance, we had a business with 500 employees called GIK Mrakovica where

Page 28872

 1     Mr. Ibro, a man of Muslim faith, continued to be the manager.  But it

 2     would be logical for the public security station or the army to replace

 3     staff and make new appointments.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. --

 5        A.   -- and of course -- I just want to emphasise one more thing, if

 6     you allow me.  We did not enforce this decision blindly.  There were

 7     senior staff who were not Serbs but continued in their positions.

 8        Q.   Mr. Mandic, that was an elaborate explanation of the "logic" that

 9     you claim underpinned termination decisions.  But this decision or these

10     two decisions don't describe that at all.  They have a categorical

11     provision based on ethnicity and that decision was made by the ARK

12     Crisis Staff, received by the Prijedor Crisis Staff, and sent for

13     implementation by the Prijedor Crisis Staff.  That is true, correct?

14        A.   Yes, according to this paper.  But on the ground it wasn't like

15     that.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 3304, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 3304 receives number P6948.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

20             MR. TIEGER:

21        Q.   Mr. Lukic was interested in the third paragraph of provision 1.

22     You emphasise in your statement that only the issue of respect for

23     constitution as a bench-mark for terminations, but the reality,

24     Mr. Mandic, as reflected in the ARK Crisis Staff decision was that it was

25     loyalty and fidelity to the party that was the bench-mark for

Page 28873

 1     terminations, not loyalty to the constitution.  And isn't that what the

 2     first provision in this decision reflects?  That's the last paragraph of

 3     the first part of that decision.  It's about loyalty to the party, isn't

 4     it, and the decision that posts cannot be held by people who haven't

 5     accepted that the SDS is the only representative for the Serbian people?

 6        A.   That pertained to Serbs.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now --

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do we understand that non-Serbs who were loyal to

 9     the SDA [sic] would be excluded from this provision.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand that question.

11     It's somehow complicated.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  It's not complicated.  You've just told us that

13     the last paragraph of provision 1 relates to the Serbs only, and I'm

14     saying -- and you have just told us also that there was a man who headed

15     a company who was a non-Serb because he was loyal.  Now I'm saying:  Does

16     this last paragraph exclude non-Serbs who are loyal to the SDA -- SDS?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There weren't any such persons in

18     the SDS.

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Well, you've told us of a person who retained his

20     job as a manager of a company who was non-Serb.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And didn't he -- and why was he retained in his

23     job when everybody else who was non-Serb was dismissed?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was loyal to the

25     then-authorities.  He was not a member of the party.  He did not exhibit

Page 28874

 1     any extreme tensions and of course thereby he remained in that position.

 2     That was the reason.  Had there been anything, he certainly would have

 3     been prosecuted.  He kept his job, he supported the then-government, so

 4     why would he not stay?

 5             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And the then-government and the then-authority was

 6     the SDS government, wasn't it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, certainly.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So he was loyal to the SDS and its government?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he wasn't a member of the

10     SDS --

11             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not saying --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but he was loyal to the

13     government.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm not saying he was a member, I'm saying he's

15     loyal.  You have just told us.  He was loyal [Overlapping speakers] --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the government, to the

17     authorities.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Yes, absolutely.  You said everybody who was loyal

19     to the then-authorities would be covered by this, but he must be Serb.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To tell you the truth, I did not

21     look at his birth certificate.  You can tell who is who on the basis of a

22     name, but you cannot really go in-depth that much.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  You have told this Chamber that that person was a

24     non-Serb.  Whether or not you had looked at his birth certificate, you

25     know him to be a non-Serb.

Page 28875

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So you are not able to answer my question?  My

 3     question, if I must remind you:  Does this paragraph, the last paragraph

 4     of provision 1, not include non-Serbs, yes or no?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

 7             Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you -- this is not the first time you've testified

10     before a Chamber in this institution.  You testified in the Karadzic case

11     as well; correct?

12        A.   Yes, yes.

13        Q.   And in your testimony in the Karadzic case, you referred to the

14     fact that as vice chairman of the Executive Board you did not travel to

15     Banja Luka unlike other Prijedor officials; correct?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   It was the responsibility, as you testified, of the president of

18     the municipality and other Prijedor representatives to go to Banja Luka

19     for meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the Prijedor authorities implemented the decisions of the ARK

22     Crisis Staff, as we have already seen from the document we've previously

23     examined; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   All right.  Let me show you another example of that.

Page 28876

 1             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call up 65 ter 17422, please.

 2        Q.   This is a document dated the 22nd of May, 1992, sent by the

 3     Prijedor Crisis Staff to all commercial and social enterprises, in

 4     accordance, as the document states, with the decision of the Crisis Staff

 5     of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, imposing permanent operational duty

 6     in all the municipalities of the ARK, and that's an example of Prijedor's

 7     implementation of the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff as you mentioned

 8     a moment ago; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours 17422 receives number P6949.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   Mr. Mandic, in paragraph 6 of your statement you refer to the

16     "peaceful" take-over of power in Prijedor, what you have corrected to be

17     the 30th of April, 1992.  Now, I want to clarify first that when,

18     although you say "peaceful," that means nothing more than no bloodshed.

19     It does not mean no force.  It was a forcible take-over; correct?  That

20     is, the Serbs occupied buildings with armed personnel -- physically

21     occupied those buildings?

22        A.   That was done by the police, milicija, that is to say the public

23     security station.  They took over these facilities.

24        Q.   And in paragraph 9 you state that that take-over was the result

25     of intercepted telegrams that caused "panic" among police and citizens.

Page 28877

 1     Now, in actual fact, Mr. Mandic, the take-over of Prijedor by the Bosnian

 2     Serb authorities was planned and preparatory actions were being put in

 3     place well before those telegrams; isn't that the truth?

 4        A.   First of all, I mean, I am not a Bosnian Serb.  I'm a Serb from

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I'm offended as a person if somebody says "Bosnian

 6     Serb" or "Bosnian" to me.  I'm a Serb from Bosnia-Herzegovina and my

 7     religion is Orthodox Christianity.  I'm sorry for this reaction, but I

 8     really had to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  When and where were you addressed as a Bosnian Serb

10     being a witness here?  I saw that -- I heard Mr. Tieger --

11             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  -- talking at the Bosnian Serb authorities.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  He didn't address you in any way in person.  So

15     would you please answer the question rather than complain about the

16     language used which was not directly related to you.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  That was my

18     understanding and that is why I reacted.  I apologise if it wasn't

19     addressed to me.

20             As for a response to this question, it was logical that as the

21     SDA and the HDZ were preparing to take over Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

22     SDS worked on the ground, and of course they talked to these two parties

23     all the time as well so that the problem of Prijedor and

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina could be resolved by peaceful means.  We offered all

25     sorts of options, even a joint police force including Serbs and

Page 28878

 1     non-Serbs, mixed patrols and so on.  However, when this telegram arrived

 2     then a decision was made to take-over authority in Prijedor in a

 3     non-violent way.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   Mr. Mandic, your statement indicates that the cause and effect of

 6     the Prijedor was, A, the telegram that was intercepted or the two

 7     telegrams that were intercepted; and thereafter a reaction, an immediate

 8     reaction, a panicky reaction by the police.  There is no mention

 9     whatsoever of any preparatory steps or any prior decision to implement

10     the take-over in Prijedor.  Now, first of all, are you acknowledging to

11     this Court now that there were -- that there was a prior decision, that

12     is, before those telegrams were sent and intercepted to take over-power,

13     and that steps were taken to implement that decision before the receipt

14     of those telegrams, yes or no?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Well, you admitted that when you were testifying in the Karadzic

17     case.  I'm going to turn you to that testimony now, sir.

18             MR. TIEGER:  If we could turn to 65 ter 31659, page 9.

19        Q.   You were asked about this same issue because you raised it in

20     your Karadzic statement as well, and you were confronted with the

21     fact - and I can read you all this verbatim but let's see first if my

22     description of what happened in the Karadzic case jogs your recollection.

23     You were first confronted with a fact at page 9 in the e-court that the

24     Serb authorities had been preparing the take-over long before the 29th of

25     April.  You provided a fairly elaborate answer similar to the one you did

Page 28879

 1     today:

 2             "We were aware of the time that we lived in.  We were aware of

 3     the history ...  we knew that the representatives of the SDA ...  had

 4     decided to take over the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina ...," you referred to

 5     World War II.

 6             Then you were asked:

 7             "Well, then, do you agree ...  that the SDS was preparing the

 8     take-over ... long before receiving the Telex?"

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Turn to the next page, please.

10        Q.   And again, you said:  Well, we had to organise ourselves in one

11     way or another.  You were then confronted with a Prijedor SJB report,

12     which was P2968 in the Karadzic case, as reflected here, and is --

13             MR. TIEGER:  For the benefit of counsel and Your Honours, P3948

14     in this case.

15        Q.   -- a document which reflects that activities were launched to

16     prepare for a take-over by force.  These activities gained momentum in

17     April.  It refers to the "very detailed preparations" and talks about the

18     role of 400 policemen in carrying out the take-over.

19             And then you were asked:

20             "Now as this police report makes clear, this take-over by the SDS

21     in Prijedor was planned long before the Telex was received on the 29th of

22     April; correct?"

23             MR. TIEGER:  That's at the bottom of page 10 in the e-court.

24        Q.   And at the top of page 11 in e-court, you say:

25             "Yes.  But this was not the only reason.  I mean, the Cazin

Page 28880

 1     Krajina."

 2             So in the Karadzic case you acknowledged that the take-over by

 3     the SDS in Prijedor was planned long before the Telex was received; isn't

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Well, it's very questionable what that means, a lot earlier, long

 6     before, it could be a month or more or five years or whatever.  When --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  How --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the Municipal Assembly could not

 9     have been established --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  You're asking questions

11     yourself rather than answering them, but tell us how long before was it

12     that it was prepared?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think it was from the

14     beginning of April when a member of a Serb wedding party was killed in

15     Sarajevo, that that became intensified then, and what was discussed was

16     what would happen if something like that would happen in Prijedor.  But

17     it was the telegram that initiated this.

18             I apologise.  And everything else I said when I testified in the

19     case of President Karadzic, those reasons are also the ones that led to

20     the take-over on the 30th of April, 1992.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So it -- you said there were more reasons.  The

22     issue raised by Mr. Tieger simply is, in paragraph 9 of your statement

23     you give a picture that a telegram triggered everything, whereas - as you

24     tell us now - a month before you were already thinking about how to

25     prepare, et cetera.  Isn't that true?

Page 28881

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the testimony provided in

 2     Mr. Karadzic's case shows that I confirmed that, so here in my statement

 3     it is abbreviated, it's two sentences only.  I did not say why and on

 4     account of what, et cetera.  The telegram was the one that led to this

 5     happening in the municipality of Prijedor, so there.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So it's not the whole truth?  It's part of the

 7     truth?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nobody asked me to describe

 9     what had happened earlier.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You gave a picture as if it was all triggered by the

11     telegram.  You're now telling us that events before played a role as well

12     and you testified in a similar way in the Karadzic case, so you must have

13     been aware that that is relevant information, isn't it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, and I confirmed that on

15     the basis of conversations.  I didn't hide anything.  This is what led to

16     the decision for the take-over.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  We leave it to that, and I remind you that you are

18     supposed to tell the whole truth and not just part of it.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  So I don't run afoul of

21     the Court's schedule, is it -- okay.  Fine.

22        Q.   Similarly, Mr. Mandic, in paragraph 6 you state that the

23     Crisis Staff was established or set up after the take-over.  And that's

24     not true either, is it?  The Crisis Staff existed in Prijedor before the

25     take-over, didn't it?

Page 28882

 1        A.   No.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have P3779, please.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, only my colleague would be specific,

 4     which Crisis Staff he asked --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If there are more Crisis Staffs --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  There are.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then, Mr. Lukic, you took a statement, then I

 8     take it that you would have created clarity in this respect.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  I was describing the Crisis Staff this gentleman was

10     a member of.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Which one?

12             MR. LUKIC:  It is -- I don't want to interfere with the

13     questions, only there are more Crisis Staffs.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

15             Then the question to the witness:  Was there a Crisis Staff,

16     perhaps another one, created before the 30th of April?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Well, if I can just intervene slightly.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  I don't consider that to be a precisely fair

20     intervention.  The question was clear I was asking about the Prijedor

21     Crisis Staff.  Now that intervention is clearly an interpretive queue for

22     the witness.  It's not -- it doesn't clarify an ambiguous question.  The

23     question is about whether or not the Prijedor Crisis Staff existed.  The

24     witness is in a position to answer that question.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

Page 28883

 1             MR. LUKIC:  The Crisis Staff [Overlapping speakers] --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, Mr. Lukic, the Crisis Staff the witness

 3     is talking about in paragraph 6.  He was taken to paragraph 6 and the

 4     question is put to him whether the Crisis Staff --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  The Crisis Staff [Overlapping speakers] --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which refers to the Crisis Staff he is talking

 7     about in paragraph 6 to set up a Crisis Staff in order to more easily

 8     overcome.

 9             Witness, was the Crisis Staff you're talking about in paragraph 6

10     established after the take-over or was it established at any earlier

11     point in time?  You are -- you're reading from the screen.  As a matter

12     of fact, we'd like to hear your answer first rather than to read from the

13     screen.  Was the Crisis Staff you are talking about in paragraph 6

14     established before the 30th of April?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no, I mean the Crisis Staff

16     of the Serb municipality of Prijedor, it was established after the 30th

17     of April, that is to say on the basis of the law.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, Mr. Lukic, I think --

19             MR. LUKIC:  We have documents on this.  It's not in dispute I

20     think at all.  I can tell you the exact dates.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the --

22             MR. LUKIC:  I had a whole case on the Crisis Staff in Prijedor.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, it's about reliability and credibility of

24     the witness.

25             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly, that's why I'm trying to have a fair

Page 28884

 1     question for this witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was fair.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   On the screen in front of you, Mr. Mandic, is P3779, a document

 6     dated the 23rd of April, 1992, among other things it refers in point 5 to

 7     "... working on the take-over, co-ordination with the JNA

 8     notwithstanding."  And in points 2 and 3 it refers to the fact that:

 9             "All units and staff in management posts shall be responsible and

10     subordinate to the Crisis Staff in this area."

11             And point 3:

12             "To reinforce the Crisis Staff according to speciality."

13             Now, that's a reflection of the existence of the Crisis Staff on

14     at least April 23rd, 1992, is it not?

15        A.   I really don't know when this Crisis Staff was established.  I

16     mean, in 1991 I didn't live in Prijedor, in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all.

17     This is certainly organisation on the ground by the SDS; that is to say,

18     Crisis Staffs were established and local committees because the other

19     sides did that too in order, I mean, to get information on the ground.

20     Well, that would be it, my answer, because -- well, the Crisis Staff --

21     perhaps the person who wrote this was taking notes.  I don't remember

22     officially a Crisis Staff as an institution.

23        Q.   But you attended this meeting; right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  But I really don't know if there was a Crisis Staff

25     when it was established.  As for what I know, I know that the Serb

Page 28885

 1     municipality of Prijedor was established on the 9th of January, but then

 2     a Crisis Staff and who was on this Crisis Staff and who was the main

 3     person there?

 4        Q.   All right.  I'm going to be getting into that in some greater

 5     detail in a moment, but since we're just a couple of minutes from the

 6     break, perhaps it's better to pick it up fresh when we resume.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll take the break now and, Witness, we'd like to

 8     see you back in 20 minutes.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into

15     the courtroom.

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Mandic, in connection with the establishment of the

20     Crisis Staff and the take-over, I wanted to call up a number of documents

21     that shed light on both of those issues.  And the first one I'd like to

22     call up is P3038, a document the Court will be familiar with.

23             Mr. Mandic, these are the instructions for the organisation and

24     operation of organs of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in

25     emergency conditions, dated the 19th of December, 1991, often referred to

Page 28886

 1     as the Variant A and B document.  It provides for measures and tasks in

 2     connection with municipalities where the Serbian people constitute a

 3     majority, that's Variant A; and in those municipalities where the Serbian

 4     people do not constitute a majority, that is Variant B.  And it's broken

 5     down into different into two different levels or phases or steps, level 1

 6     and level 2.  So, first of all, let me ask you if you claim to be

 7     familiar with this document?

 8        A.   May I answer?  In 1991 I was not in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all.

 9     In fact, it was the former Yugoslavia still and I never held this

10     document in my hands.  I never read it.

11        Q.   All right.  We're going to track this document and Prijedor in a

12     moment, but first let me ask you to confirm a very basic proposition in

13     connection with issue of Serb majority or Serb minority municipalities.

14     It's correct that in 1991 Prijedor had about 112.500 people, of whom a

15     little over 49.000 were Muslims and -- well, 49.350 were Muslims and

16     47.580 were Serbs with smaller groups of -- smaller other groups;

17     correct?

18        A.   I think it was correct under the census.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, could I seek clarification of one of the

20     previous answers.

21             You said you never held this document in your hands, you never

22     read it.  You never read it in your whole life or did you intend to say

23     that you didn't read it in 1991 or early 1992?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not active at that time in

25     the sense of receiving any documentation and in 1991 I was not --

Page 28887

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, that was not my question, whether you were

 2     active or not.  My simple question is whether you ever in your life read

 3     this document?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.  I can't answer

 5     this question.  I don't remember.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put another question to the witness?

 8             You said:

 9             "In 1991 I was not in Bosnia-Herzegovina at all.  In fact, it was

10     the former Yugoslavia still..."

11             When did you return to the former Yugoslavia or

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that was just before the

14     new year, 1992, the 24th or 25th December.  I was working in Germany and

15     there are witnesses who can testify where I was.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In your statement, paragraph 3, you say:

17             "I stayed in Germany for about a year and returned to Prijedor in

18     late 1991."

19             I just want to clarify what is late 1991, you are saying now 24th

20     or 25th December.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, yes.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call up P3773, please.

24        Q.   Now, what you'll see coming up on the screen next, Mr. Mandic, is

25     a document about eight days later from the 27th of December, 1991, a

Page 28888

 1     meeting of the Prijedor Municipal Boards, and as we look down the page we

 2     can see that President Miskovic, the president of the SDS Municipal

 3     Board, read out the instructions forwarded to the Prijedor SDS by the

 4     Assembly of the Serbian People, referred to the two versions but noted

 5     that only version II, which in context I take to be version -- Variant B

 6     which was relevant for Prijedor was read out.  And then having read them

 7     out, he explained what had been done so far with respect to the

 8     instructions.  And as we look further down the page we see the reference

 9     to the reasons and functions being stated for the establishment of the

10     municipal Crisis Staff and local staffs on the territory of the

11     municipality.  Turning the page in English but remaining on the same page

12     in B/C/S, we see the decision to introduce around-the-clock duty in SDS

13     offices.  We note in point 2 that the composition of the Crisis Staff is

14     identified.  And finally that a session of the Assembly of the Serbian

15     people was scheduled.

16             Now, Mr. Mandic, either at that time or at some point later when

17     you took a more active part in the organs of the Serbian people in

18     Prijedor, were you made aware of the fact that the Prijedor Serbian

19     authorities, the SDS, had received the Variant A and B instructions and

20     was implementing them, including by establishing a Crisis Staff?

21        A.   Yes.  I joined in later and I remember individual people

22     advocated various things.  For instance, late Mirko Sarac was in charge

23     of economic affairs and I talked to him mostly about the economy.  At any

24     rate, there were some people but I really didn't know who was in charge

25     of what exactly and --

Page 28889

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, witness --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it's true the Crisis Staff was

 3     established at that time but I didn't immediately --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  After a few lines you come to an answer to

 5     the question.  Why not do that directly?  But it's only the second part

 6     of the question.  Had you become aware then that the Prijedor Serbian

 7     authorities, the SDS, had received the Variant A and B instructions?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, certainly I was not aware of

 9     it, but it's obvious that it's a fact.  The document speaks to it.

10     There's no reason for me to --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, there's only one reason for you:  That is, to

12     answer the question.  You say you were not aware, then the simple answer

13     is:  No, I was not aware.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this Chamber has received evidence that on the 14th

17     of February, 1992, Dr. Karadzic at a large extended meeting of the

18     Executive and Main Boards and municipality presidents and so on activated

19     the second level of Variant A and B, referring to it four times and

20     concluding by -- let me --

21             MR. TIEGER:  And this is P3774.

22        Q.   Concluding by saying:

23             "That's why we called you today, to intensify, to introduce the

24     second level and to intensify the functioning of the government at any

25     cost and on every single millimetre of our territory."

Page 28890

 1             That was not so long before you say you became vice-president of

 2     the Executive Committee.  Were you made aware of the fact that the second

 3     level of Variant A and B had been activated by the president of the SDS

 4     in mid-February?

 5        A.   If I was at some meeting, this must have been shown to me; I

 6     mean, a meeting of the Municipal Board of the SDS.  Now, whether I

 7     remember what Radovan Karadzic said or not, I'm not sure, but I was

 8     informed if I attended that meeting.  If there is a document about it, I

 9     accept it.

10        Q.   Well, let me turn in that case to 65 ter 15948.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, if I can kindly ask that the

12     English translation be released in e-court.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   As we can now all see, Mr. Mandic, this is a document dated the

15     17th of February, 1992, three days after the activation of level 2 by

16     Dr. Karadzic.  It's a meeting of the SDS Prijedor Municipal Board.  And

17     the first speaker was Mr. Miskovic, the president of the SDS

18     Municipal Board, who gave a briefing on the meeting held in Sarajevo, and

19     describes it beginning with his description that Mr. Karadzic was the

20     main speaker.  And if we look further down the page and turn to page --

21     and you'll see it, sir, on page 2 of the B/C/S, about six lines -- six,

22     seven lines down, Mr. Miskovic informs the attendees as he's debriefing

23     them on the meeting that in view of all that he's described and all that

24     Dr. Karadzic explained, "it is necessary to activate the second stage of

25     the position stated by the SDS BH Main Board ..."

Page 28891

 1             And he goes on to explain what that means.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  And that would be reflected on page 3 of the B/C/S

 3     and page 2 of the English.  That is not the correct page 2.  I'm not sure

 4     what that reflects.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was the previous document.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.  There, it's about six lines down where

 7     Mr. Miskovic explains:

 8             "It is necessary for us to establish control in our territories."

 9        Q.   And finally, Mr. Mandic, if we turn to the next page in English

10     and I believe page 4 in the B/C/S but we'll look at both pages, you'll

11     see your name mentioned in between Mr. Coric's intervention and

12     Mr. Drljaca's comments, you'll see the name "Mandic."

13             So, Mr. Mandic, does this refresh your recollection about being

14     present at a meeting when Prijedor's -- when the discussion about the

15     activation of the second level of Variant A and B was made known to the

16     relevant Prijedor authorities and the implementation discussed?

17        A.   Yes, I was present, indubitably, and the transcript confirms it.

18     But to tell you the truth what A and B means -- I mean, plan A is a bit

19     lighter -- I mean, I would have to read it.  It was such a long time ago.

20     I need to see what's written in that plan B, but it involves certainly

21     organisation, monitoring on the terrain, on the ground, some kind of

22     preparation because it's obvious we knew that the war was coming, it

23     never spared us and it wasn't going to spare us that time and it's not

24     going to spare us the next time.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sorry, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Mandic, I don't

Page 28892

 1     think it is necessary for you -- it's not necessary to read the document.

 2     I think what Mr. Tieger is -- the point he's making is that you attended

 3     this meeting before the 30th of April, 1992, where the establishment of a

 4     Crisis Staff is being discussed.  So if -- do you agree with him on that?

 5     Thank you so much.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree, if that's the

 7     question.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender that document, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document with 65 ter number 15948

11     receives number P6950.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

14        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you mentioned a moment ago that you would be

15     interested in looking at portions of the Variant A and B document.  Let

16     me turn your attention then to a few pertinent portions, if I may.

17             MR. TIEGER:  So if we can call back P3038.

18        Q.   And as Mr. Miskovic did on December 27th, I'll turn my attention

19     to Variant B, the relevant part of this document as far as Prijedor is

20     concerned, that begins on page 6.  And at page 7 of the English and also

21     page 7 of the B/C/S, we see references at points 5 to "carrying out

22     preparations for the establishment of municipal government organs (the

23     Executive Committee, administration organs ...," et cetera.

24             And reference to "preparing the take-over of the staff and some

25     of the equipment of security services centres and their integration with

Page 28893

 1     the public security station ..."

 2             And then turning to the second level on page 9 of the English and

 3     pages 8 and 9 of the B/C/S, we see the following.  The first provides

 4     for:

 5             "Convene a session of the Serbian Municipal Assembly and

 6     establish a municipal Executive Committee, establish municipal government

 7     organs ...," et cetera.

 8             "2.  Mobilise all Serbian police forces and gradually

 9     resubordinate them in co-ordination with JNA commands and staffs."

10             "4.  Organise round the clock physical security and of all public

11     buildings of vital interest, transport, and communications," et cetera.

12             Now, those provisions I just read out to you, Mr. Mandic,

13     describe the take-over; correct?

14        A.   Not at that moment, but on the 30th of April -- I mean, you can't

15     just take over power by coming there without having personnel ready who

16     will sit there giving them instructions how to act --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, would you carefully listen to the question.

18     Mr. Tieger did not put to you that at that point in time the take-over

19     was a fact, but he says that what is described here as the second level

20     in effect is a description of a take-over, whether you agree with that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree, I agree.  I understood it

22     differently.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Thanks, Your Honour.

24        Q.   And to press a bit further, that's what happened in Prijedor and

25     the take-over in Prijedor on April 30th, as I believe you just alluded

Page 28894

 1     to, was pursuant to the second level of Variant A and B; correct?

 2        A.   Correct, that's written here.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  If we could call 65 ter 31663, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, again, the answer "that's written here."

 5             What is written there, did that -- was that performed, executed

 6     on the 30th of April?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             Perhaps you could move slightly back from the microphone, so as

10     to avoid any further interference.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   Mr. Mandic, I've just called up the abridged minutes of the

14     5th Session of the Serbian municipality of Prijedor held on the 16th of

15     April, 1992.  It reflects the nomination of Executive Committee members

16     and so on, as we see on the first page.  And as we see on the second

17     page, we see the election of the following people, including yourself.

18     So there's you, Mr. Mandic, as the Executive Committee deputy chairman;

19     Mr. Budimir, the National Defence secretary; Mr. Drljaca, the chief of

20     the SJB; Mr. Kuruzovic, the TO staff commander, and so on among the many

21     offices planned.  And again, these reflect steps taken shortly before and

22     in anticipation of the take-over to come; correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24             MR. TIEGER:  I tender that document, please.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

Page 28895

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 31663 receives number

 2     P6951.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  And if I could have 65 ter 10845, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is a dispatch from Simo Drljaca to the

 6     Banja Luka CSB dated the 30th of April, 1992.  He notes that:

 7             "In accordance with the conclusions of the Executive Board,

 8     the ... control was seized over the SJBs and all other major

 9     facilities ..."

10             And he also refers to the fact that ten police stations and 1.587

11     policemen were mobilised."

12             Now, the mobilisation of the policemen is a reflection - and I

13     can refer you back to the document, but since we've referred specifically

14     to it just moments earlier - a reflection of the second -- but point 2 of

15     this second level of the Variant B in the Variant A and B document,

16     correct?  And that's what Mr. Drljaca is referring to and that's what was

17     executed by him.  Sorry, I just wanted you to confirm that the

18     reference --

19        A.   Yes, yes, he acted upon this.

20        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender that document.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 10845 receives number

24     P6952.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

Page 28896

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Mandic, let me turn to a different aspect of your statement.

 3     In paragraphs 43 through 44 you emphasise that there was no contact with

 4     the authorities in Pale for "several months after the war started."  Now,

 5     I take it that means from the beginning of April 1992 until sometime in

 6     the summer; is that right?

 7        A.   I would like to ask the following:  I had this question -- this

 8     kind of question put to me during the case of President Karadzic, and I

 9     really could not recall the time, was it April, May, June.  But then we

10     reached the following:  Information was received from Pale in the AR

11     Krajina, but the time of the attack on Prijedor and the breakthrough of

12     the corridor, I mean that period remained without any functioning.

13        Q.   Well, let's break it down and let's focus on -- first on what you

14     remember right now and what you're in a position to tell this Chamber

15     right now.  So first of all, let's start with the easy part:  And that is

16     when the break in communication that you claim began, when you claim it

17     began.  And I take it from your statement you're referring to the

18     beginning of the war and the nature of the problems, that means the

19     beginning of April 1992; right?

20        A.   No, I'm referring to the time in Prijedor.  I wasn't looking at

21     all of Bosnia-Herzegovina here in my answer.  When there was no

22     electricity, when communications were down because of war operations in

23     the Prijedor municipality, that's the period I mean that we had no

24     communication, otherwise we had normal communication.  I think up until

25     the 15th of May, 20th of May, and then I think there was no communication

Page 28897

 1     until the corridor was established, and I'm referring to Pale.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And when was the corridor established in your

 3     recollection?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 28th of June, 1992.  I was

 5     there so ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So you're talking about a period earliest 15th of

 7     May, latest 28th of June?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That's not several months, that's one month and a

10     half, isn't it, at its best?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when I was writing I wasn't

12     paying attention but that's it.  I mean, I wasn't paying attention to

13     this, what a month or two meant.  I mean, I'm not a lawyer so quite

14     simply I write -- well, it wasn't my wish to do anything wrong in any

15     sense.  It just so happened that -- well, two months, a couple of months.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept that I made a mistake, I

18     mean.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You attested to it after having read it again, if I

20     understand you well, and it's not the first time now that you are

21     correcting yourself.  And please keep this in mind that we expect

22     accurate --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- accurate testimony.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

Page 28898

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Well, perhaps we can talk about some of those contacts.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Can we call up 65 ter 31043, please.

 4        Q.   These, Mr. Mandic, are the minutes of the Prijedor Municipal

 5     Board from the 18th of May, 1992.  And on the agenda in point 2 we see

 6     report from the session of the Serbian republic Bosnia-Herzegovina

 7     Assembly, and that report was given by Simo Miskovic, as we see in item

 8     2, noting that:

 9             "There were 18 items on the agenda, the main guide-lines in

10     future activities were identified, the commander of the Army Supreme

11     Staff appointed, members of the Presidency of the Republic elected,

12     et cetera."

13             Now, that would be a reference to the 16th Assembly Session of

14     the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina held in

15     Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992; correct?

16        A.   Sorry, is that written here?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger referred to the date of the Assembly

18     session which is discussed at this meeting, the 18th of May.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I just don't know the date.  I

20     can't see the date.  Maybe it was then, I don't know.

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   That's fine, Mr. Mandic, the date is not that significant for

23     this purpose.  All right.  Now, the reference that we saw before, that

24     is, Miskovic briefing the members of this meeting, including yourself,

25     about the main guide-lines in future activities, that was a reference to

Page 28899

 1     the strategic objectives of the Bosnian Serbs or the Serbian people in

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina which were articulated by Dr. Karadzic at that

 3     Assembly session in Banja Luka; correct?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honours, I tender this document.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document with number 31043 receives

 8     number P6953.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   And after that assembly session and after the meeting that we

12     just looked at, Prijedor authorities were implementing [Realtime

13     transcript read in error "admitting"] the decisions of the Serbian

14     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And that would include the following document --

17             MR. TIEGER:  If I could call up P3417.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before you do that, Mr. Tieger, page 37, line

19     16, did you say implementing or admitting?

20             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. --

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  After this session -- the sentence reads:

22             "After the session and after the meeting that we just looked

23     at --"

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. -- implementing, correct.  Thank you

25     very much.

Page 28900

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             You were calling?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  That was P3417.

 4        Q.   Sir, this is a decision taken at the meeting held on the 22nd of

 5     May, 1992, about the mobilisation on the territory of the Prijedor

 6     municipality.  As we see on the second page of the English but on the

 7     single page in B/C/S, it was signed by Dr. Stakic.  And in the preamble

 8     we see that it was pursuant to the decision of the Serbian republic of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina about the general mobilisation of forces and

10     materiel in the republic.  So this is an example of the Prijedor

11     Crisis Staff and Prijedor Serbian authorities implementing the decisions

12     of the republic-level authorities; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Mandic, I want now to turn to portions of your statement

15     dealing with particular events in Prijedor, and specifically events

16     having to do with Hambarine and Kozarac.  In your statement, as you will

17     recall, you refer to the attack on Hambarine on about the 22nd of May or

18     23rd of May, 1992.  And in your statement you refer to the fact that a

19     number of Muslims left Hambarine around the time of the attack.

20     Mr. Mandic, it's correct, isn't it, that the reason Muslims from

21     Hambarine might have been inclined to leave prior to the commencement of

22     the attack is because the Crisis Staff threatened them that their safety

23     was in jeopardy if the ultimatum of the Crisis Staff to hand over the

24     alleged perpetrators of the check-point incident was not fulfilled.

25     That's correct, isn't it?

Page 28901

 1        A.   Well, partly.  I mean, really what the Crisis Staff, I mean, over

 2     Radio Prijedor broadcast to the public, well, yes, that's the decision.

 3     But the non-Serb and Serb population moved out before the take-over and

 4     that could be seen from my statement.  Women, children, and the elderly

 5     did not wait for the month of May to see what would happen then.  They

 6     left a lot earlier.  Of course when there is a lack of safety people do

 7     flee, and the Serb population facing the belt where Hambarine is also

 8     sought shelter from the war operations.  They didn't stay at home.

 9     That's only natural.  No one knew who would win ultimately and it's

10     logical for people to withdraw if the extremists do not hand over those

11     who killed the soldier.

12        Q.   You state here that the non-Serb and Serb population moved out

13     before the take-over.  That seems to be all-embracing.  Of course that's

14     not true, right?  You're suggesting that some people moved out, but you

15     know very well that most people remained, many of whom - many of

16     whom - ended up in detention facilities in Prijedor after the attacks

17     began.

18        A.   Many people moved out of Prijedor before the take-over.  I lived

19     in town and I knew through Sun Tours buses left every day.  At first we

20     wondered why, and then later on we realised why.  I'm not saying that

21     everybody left, but a lot of people left.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the issue apparently is:  Did most of the

23     people leave or did most of the people stay?  So some -- let's talk about

24     did the majority stay or did the majority of non-Serbs leave Hambarine

25     before the attack?

Page 28902

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stayed, the majority.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The majority stayed.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you also claim at paragraph 11 that there was "strong

 5     resistance to the police and army action at Hambarine."  In fact,

 6     Mr. Mandic, the VRS didn't suffer any casualties at all; right?  And you

 7     acknowledged that in your testimony in the Karadzic case.

 8        A.   Well, those were the reports that we received.  It's not that I

 9     knew -- I mean, I read in Kozarski Vjesnik that one soldier had been

10     wounded.  So the report said that there was strong resistance.  I wasn't

11     there but that is what was presented in public.

12        Q.   So according to you the report said that there was strong

13     resistance resulting in the wounding of one soldier and the destruction

14     of the -- virtually the entire community of Hambarine?

15        A.   That is what the report says.

16        Q.   You also testified that the -- or you provided in your statement

17     that the purpose of the operation was to remove the check-point and bring

18     those allegedly responsible for the check-point incident to justice,

19     that's the last line of paragraph 10 of your statement.  In fact, the

20     army's --

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   -- the army's response to this check-point incident was to shell

23     the entire village; correct?

24        A.   Well, I think that that is natural in war operations.  If

25     somebody fires at the army, what else can --

Page 28903

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was not whether it's natural

 2     or whether it's justified.  The question simply was whether the army's

 3     response to this check-point incident was to shell the entire village,

 4     and I take it from your answer that you say yes that's what happened, is

 5     it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  That was the question.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   And then shortly thereafter, Mr. Mandic, the same thing happened

11     to Kozarac, right?  There was a two- or three-day shelling, intensive

12     shelling of Kozarac?

13        A.   That's the way it was.

14        Q.   And again in your statement you referred to -- and in connection

15     with that you were also aware, were you not, that hundreds of people,

16     that is Muslims, were killed in these operations?

17        A.   No, I did not know.  I did not take part in these operations.  I

18     wasn't counting how many people were there, who was there.  If there's a

19     report that this was submitted to the Crisis Staff, then it is logical

20     that I should accept that I was made aware of that.  Now, how many, I

21     mean really that was not my line of work, to deal with the number of

22     people who had been taken prisoner and ...

23        Q.   Speaking of your line of work, sir, you referred in your Karadzic

24     testimony to the fact that you did not follow what the army and the

25     police were doing.  That was their own line of work.  So I take it

Page 28904

 1     that -- first of all, you recall that testimony; right?

 2        A.   [No interpretation]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 4     witness.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat your answer.  The

 6     interpreters could not hear you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think so, yes, because through

 8     the Crisis Staff I was made aware of all of these things.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Okay.  But they had their own chains of command and you were not

11     privy to their individual communications, right, internally?

12        A.   Yes, I didn't communicate also.  When Prijedor was taken over

13     during the first days -- can I say this?  Mr. Miskovic -- no, sorry,

14     Drljaca refused co-operation.  He got up and left the session because I

15     asked him where the golden money were going, the golden money they took

16     away from the people.  Quite simply, I wanted to know and I didn't want

17     us to have a bad reputation that we were looting, that we were robbing

18     people; however, he didn't like that.  He got up and left the session.

19        Q.   So in light of what you've just explained about your line of work

20     and the chain -- unitary chains of command of the army and the police,

21     when you say in paragraph 33 of your statement:

22             "The army and the police did not have permission or orders to

23     contravene international laws of war or the Geneva Conventions."

24             You're not in a position to know if that's true or not, are you,

25     according to you?

Page 28905

 1        A.   I was not checking of them exactly.  Everybody knew about the

 2     Geneva Convention and ...

 3        Q.   Witness, I want to turn next to some of your evidence about the

 4     camps.  First of all, the Municipal Assembly and the offices where you

 5     and other Prijedor political officials functioned were located in and

 6     around the centre of town; right?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   And that would be a relatively short distance, maybe a kilometre

 9     or so from Keraterm; correct?

10        A.   Well, sort of, 2 kilometres.

11        Q.   In paragraph 17 of your statement, you assert that the Trnopolje

12     camp was established for the civilian population which did not want to

13     participate in the conflict with the Serbs.  Now, first of all, by that

14     you meant the Muslim and Croat by "civilian population"; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   These camps, Trnopolje, Keraterm, and Omarska, were established

17     at the end of May; correct?  That is, May 1992.

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19        Q.   And shortly after that, by the beginning of June, 1992, as many

20     as 7.000 or more Muslims and Croats were detained in those three

21     facilities; correct?

22        A.   Maybe I cannot remember the exact figure, I mean how many.

23     Believe me, I don't know the number.

24        Q.   You were aware that there were thousands, however; right?

25        A.   Yes, thousands.  Not 1-, 2-, but maybe 3-, 4-, 5- as you say.

Page 28906

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, if we --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, we can break now.  I anticipate concluding

 4     well before the estimate.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you give me -- we'll take a break in a

 6     second.

 7             Do I understand that you agree that people were detained at

 8     Trnopolje camp and Keraterm and Omarska?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I have to provide an

10     explanation.  Omarska --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No, could --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- one cannot equate Omarska,

13     Trnopolje, and Keraterm.  These are different things --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Were people detained in Trnopolje?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

17             That -- because you're -- a minute ago you said that people were

18     detained there, including Trnopolje.  We'll take a break first.  We'd

19     like to see you back in 20 minutes.  We resume at ten minutes past

20     midday.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 11.49 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 12.12 p.m.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, before we'll continue, one short question.

Page 28907

 1     Have you ever visited Trnopolje?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean during the war operations?

 3     At the time of war operations I never went there.  I went there either in

 4     the end of August or early September together with the president of the

 5     municipality.  We went around the schoolhouse.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So you have no personal knowledge about what

 7     happened there before you went there?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  I mean, I have some

 9     knowledge from what people were saying, but I was never in Omarska or

10     Keraterm or Trnopolje myself.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  When you say "September," September of which year

13     were you there at Trnopolje?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Can we turn to P3891, please.

18        Q.   This is a summary of conclusions adopted by the Prijedor

19     municipality Executive Committee relating to police matters between

20     April 29th and 17th August 1992.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And if we turn to the third page in both languages,

22     please.

23        Q.   The third item from the bottom provides, refers to:

24             "Conclusion number 01-023-45/92 of 2 July 1992, forbidding the

25     individual release of persons from Trnopolje, Omarska, and Keraterm."

Page 28908

 1             It's clear from this conclusion, Mr. Mandic, that people in

 2     Trnopolje were detained there, isn't it?

 3        A.   As far as I remember I think the reasons were mainly

 4     preventative.  Those people left the compound during the day and returned

 5     for the night.  It was possible that some mines were left over on the

 6     ground, that there would be drunken soldiers going around.  It was for

 7     their own protection.  I believe this conclusion was made for that

 8     reason.

 9        Q.   So people in Trnopolje, Omarska, and Keraterm, according to you,

10     were detained but detained for their own good; is that correct?

11        A.   That's how it was in Trnopolje.  In the other two camps they were

12     investigation centres.  A triage was done after the attack on Prijedor

13     and Kozarac.  There were people carrying weapons.  And this part of the

14     work was handled by the police, I believe there are records of these

15     interviews.  When I'm talking about safety reasons, protecting the

16     population, I'm talking about Trnopolje.  As for Omarska and Keraterm, I

17     think there was no freedom of movement, apart from the transport of those

18     from Keraterm who were not carrying weapons.

19        Q.   Well, with respect to Keraterm and Omarska, that's a reflection

20     of what you said in paragraph 47 of your statement in which you claimed

21     that the interviewing and investigation of persons who took part in

22     combat and who had illegal weapons and military equipment was organised

23     in Omarska.  Now, first of all, before I continue on that, the organs

24     that were interrogating people there were the military and police organs;

25     right?

Page 28909

 1        A.   There were inspectors, but exactly of what profile, from which

 2     branch, I don't know.  I know that there were some inspectors from the

 3     active-duty complement and the reserve complement, but whether they were

 4     only from the police or only from the army or combined, I don't know.

 5        Q.   Mr. Mandic, the truth is is that Omarska and Keraterm were full

 6     of non-Serbs who had nothing to do with combat or weapons; isn't that

 7     right?

 8        A.   What can I accept or not if that's how it was?  I don't know who

 9     was held there.

10        Q.   You have told this Court in your statement that people who

11     participated in combat and had weapons were held in Omarska and

12     interrogated.  So your position is now that you don't know that and it

13     could very well be the case that the people held in Omarska and Keraterm

14     were civilians who had nothing to do with combat or weaponry; right?

15        A.   Possibly.  I even heard that some Serbs were there, not only

16     non-Serbs.  There were Serbs also in Omarska.  How they got to be

17     there --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, it happened now several times that you're

19     telling us that what is found in your statement that you just don't know,

20     and that's not what we expect from a witness.  We expect a witness to

21     tell us what he knows for certain.  You say you don't know who was

22     detained in Omarska, whereas in your statement you give a totally

23     different impression.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I had no insight myself, but

25     I would hear things --

Page 28910

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- you know, I never got to see any

 3     lists or physically see these people --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you tell the Defence that you may have

 5     heard something about this, whereas then I would expect the statement to

 6     be:  I heard that this and this was the case in Omarska, instead of:

 7     This happened in Omarska, because you don't know?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did hear.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'm telling you this because if you want

10     this Chamber to take your evidence seriously, then please be accurate and

11     do not tell us all kind of things you later say you don't know, because

12     that may affect the credibility of your testimony, and I'm telling you

13     this because you have been called by the Defence in order to function

14     here as a witness.  You could spoil it, you could spoil your own evidence

15     if you're not accurate and precise.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Well, Mr. Mandic, let's talk about something that I believe you

19     will and should know, and that's the following.  Were you aware that

20     massive crimes had been committed against the Muslims in the Prijedor

21     region and particularly against the people who were held in those camps?

22        A.   I don't know exactly how to answer.  I heard there was torture

23     against non-Serbs in Omarska and in Trnopolje as well, there were

24     killings, but I didn't see any of it myself.

25        Q.   Let me ask you about a very specific -- go ahead, sir.

Page 28911

 1        A.   I don't know if this is satisfactory as an answer to you.  I

 2     don't know how else to express myself.

 3        Q.   Well, let me ask you about a specific period and about some

 4     specific crimes.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And if I could begin by calling up 65 ter 11302,

 6     please.  And if we could turn to page 5 of this document in both

 7     versions.

 8        Q.   Now, the overall document is an UNPROFOR document reflecting

 9     information sent to members of the European community, and a portion of

10     it is a letter from Mr. Izetbegovic on July 26th, 1992, which reflects

11     the following at the top of page 5:

12             "In the meantime," and it -- and the "meantime" as shown by the

13     earlier portion of the letter refers to since the London talks.

14             "In the meantime, new mass crimes have been committed against the

15     civilian population, particularly in the Prijedor region."

16             And goes on to say:

17             "And now concentration camps have been set up in various parts of

18     Bosnia and Herzegovina."

19             Now, do you have a -- first of all, just to set the timing of

20     this, do you recall, sir, on your own - and I could show you a document

21     if you don't - that the London talks ceased for a period on about July

22     17th and then were anticipated to resume later in the month?

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Maybe if you told him the year too.

24             MR. TIEGER:  It's all 1992.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.

Page 28912

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Well, let me just quickly to set this call

 2     65 ter 10729.  I need to inform Mr. Lukic that this is a document that

 3     I -- one document I think that didn't make it to our notification list,

 4     and I apologise for that, but it's being used for a very limited

 5     contextual purpose.

 6        Q.   What I'm showing you, sir, and I'll have to read it to you in

 7     English, is an article by Craig Whitney to the New York Times, and the

 8     reason I bring it to your attention is the date line is London, July 17,

 9     1992.  It refers --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, is there any dispute about this part or

11     is it important that the witness remembers himself?

12             MR. TIEGER:  No, no.  Not at all.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any dispute, Mr. Lukic, about London

14     talks stopped 17th July and to be resumed later that month?

15             MR. LUKIC:  I don't know if that's the intention of my learned

16     friend to ask me or the witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I was asking you --

18             MR. LUKIC:  Of course not.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether there's any dispute about it.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Of course not.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. TIEGER:

23        Q.   So I wanted to focus on that period of time, so

24     specifically - and that is, I'd ask you about massive crimes against

25     non-Serbs particularly in those facilities - now I was focusing on the

Page 28913

 1     period between roughly July 20th and July 26th or July 17th and July

 2     26th.  So let me ask you:  Were you aware of the massacre in Room 3 at

 3     Keraterm on the night of 24th through 25th of July, 1992, about which

 4     this Court has received evidence?

 5        A.   That was a killing that took place one night, a killing of

 6     several residents.  I believe I remember.  I think it was Zigic who did

 7     it.

 8        Q.   It's a massacre of in excess of 100 people.

 9        A.   Yes, massacre.  I agree, it was a massacre.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Now your reference to Zigic, is this what you heard

11     or did he kill them --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Heard, I heard about it.  I didn't

13     have any experience myself.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no personal knowledge and you heard that

15     Zigic killed during the night 100 persons just on his own, is that what

16     you heard?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether he was alone or several

18     people were involved, I can't remember the details now.  I know that this

19     happened and I believe it was Zigic, but I don't know if anybody was with

20     him.  I believe this case was tried and the court was aware of all the

21     details.  I can't remember now.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And you were aware that that happened to persons

23     detained in Keraterm camp?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

Page 28914

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Were you aware of the cleansing operations that took place in the

 3     Brdo, Biscani, Ljubija, and Brezevo areas during that same period of

 4     time; that is, in the latter part of July 1992?  During which the army

 5     and the police swept through those areas, rounding up many, many, many

 6     people and during which hundreds of non-Serbs were killed.

 7        A.   I know that there was mopping-up, looking for the remaining

 8     extremists.  One of them even came to see me at my home, his name was

 9     Zec.  A local police officer brought him to me.  We knew each other from

10     school --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I said:  I'm sorry, I --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, please respond to what Mr. Tieger said

14     rather than to take out one example of one person.  Mr. Tieger was

15     talking about the army and the police sweeping through those areas,

16     rounding up many, during which hundreds of non-Serbs were killed.  Are

17     you aware of that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that there was mopping up

19     done by the police and the army, but I told you the reason why it was

20     done.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And did you also hear that large numbers of

22     non-Serbs were killed during those operations?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25             MR. TIEGER:

Page 28915

 1        Q.   Sir, you must have known from at least your conversation with

 2     this man, Mr. Zec, that these operations were brutal and bloody and that

 3     the non-Serbs of Prijedor were suffering grievously from those

 4     operations; correct?

 5        A.   No, I didn't talk to him about these operations.  You understand?

 6     I said:  How come you are here?  He said:  I waited out the mopping-up

 7     operation.  Could you just help me get to the station.  And that man now

 8     lives in Vienna.  We didn't really happen to talk about what was going on

 9     on the ground.  I didn't discuss those details with him.

10        Q.   And you claim not to be aware that these areas were cleansed of

11     their inhabitants, of their non-Serb population during that time?  This

12     is right in your municipality.

13        A.   I knew that it was cleansed, mopped up.  I don't know if people

14     were killed and how many.  I couldn't know what was happening on the

15     ground, in the field.

16        Q.   But UNPROFOR in Belgrade informed by Mr. Izetbegovic in Sarajevo

17     knew about the devastation to non-Serbs in Prijedor?

18        A.   Well, they must have been in the field or got information from

19     those who were in the field.  I didn't go there.  I don't know.  You

20     know, we didn't all meet with UNPROFOR and the head people.  The

21     president met with them and we were busy doing different work.

22        Q.   All right.

23             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 11302, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 11302 receives number P6954.

Page 28916

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Mandic, in paragraph 35 of your statement you assert that the

 4     law enforcement organs in the Prijedor municipality conducted

 5     investigations against both known and unknown perpetrators and filed

 6     misdemeanour and criminal reports against them all.  In fact, Mr. Mandic,

 7     you don't know if the police or the courts prosecuted the perpetrators of

 8     any crimes against non-Serbs during the war; correct?  And that was

 9     something you admitted in the Karadzic case.

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Mandic, if you admitted that in the

12     Karadzic case - the Chamber has not looked at it - why does it then still

13     appear in your statement which was given after the Karadzic case?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just left over from the

15     earlier statement.  The statement was not revised, that's why these

16     things happen.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then tell us what happened during the

18     taking of that statement.  You say it was not revised.  I take it that

19     you were interviewed and that the statement was made and that you told

20     the interviewers what you knew and that you would leave out what had

21     turned out not to be reliable during your Karadzic testimony.  Or did

22     that not happen?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some passages remained that

24     simply -- they were not harmonised with the evidence given in the

25     Karadzic case, the President Karadzic case.

Page 28917

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have to understand that part of your statement

 2     is just a left over of an interview that took place before your Karadzic

 3     testimony?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  And you nevertheless attested at the beginning of

 6     your testimony that it was all accurate and truthful.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not a lawyer and simply such

 8     things -- I don't know how to explain.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, well, let me tell you clearly that we are at a

10     point where I have to warn you if you say:  I didn't think about my

11     attestation, whether what is found in my statement is truthful or not,

12     then perhaps you should consider to withdraw that because let's not

13     forget that if you say it's truthful and if it now turns out that it's

14     just a left over which you, not being a lawyer, stayed although you had

15     been examined on the matter in Karadzic, that comes close to giving false

16     testimony.  Are you aware of that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I'm aware of that, but it was

18     not my intention to lie.  I have no reason to lie, to perjure myself.  I

19     wouldn't have come here for that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I have warned you now four or five times only today.

21     Is that clear to you?  If you say:  My attestation is not reliable, then

22     please tell us at this moment.  And if you say:  I want to think about

23     it, then you'll be given an opportunity.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please think about it or

25     could I perhaps consult lawyers?  I really don't understand, believe me.

Page 28918

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you're not allowed to consult a lawyer at this

 2     moment, at least not the lawyers of Mr. Mladic.  If you say that the

 3     attestation you gave earlier today may not be reliable, then please tell

 4     us; and if you say:  I want to think about it, then you'll have an

 5     opportunity to do that during the next break.  At the same time, I have

 6     to warn you, if you're not telling us the truth, the whole truth, and

 7     nothing but the truth, that you expose yourself to being prosecuted for

 8     false testimony and that you are at risk to be punished with a term of

 9     imprisonment of seven years.  I have to warn you.

10             Listen carefully to the next question of Mr. Tieger.  You have an

11     opportunity to think about your own statement during the break.  And

12     please be aware that every single word you're telling us should be the

13     truth, not only the truth, but the whole truth and nothing but truth.

14             Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  I just have one more matter, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Mr. Mandic, you provided evidence in your statement about the

17     fighting in Prijedor town on the 30th of May, 1992, following the attack

18     on Prijedor town and its resolution, that is, the fact that it was dealt

19     with relatively quickly by the Serbian police and military authorities.

20     The neighbourhood known as Stari Grad was essentially destroyed by the

21     VRS; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And in fact after that happened, the Crisis Staff issued a number

24     of decisions completing the demolition of Stari Grad; right?

25        A.   I don't understand, which decisions?

Page 28919

 1        Q.   To demolish the structure -- to finally completely level the

 2     structures that had been demolished or destroyed by the VRS attack.

 3        A.   That has to do with the lists of property, the inventory.  Could

 4     you please explain that to me.  A commission was set up to make a list of

 5     property that had been demolished during the war operations.  Is that

 6     that?

 7        Q.   No, no, I was simply talking about the physical -- the demolition

 8     of the remaining ruins but it's not important.  My main focus was on the

 9     aftermath of the attack itself.

10             MR. TIEGER:  And that in fact was my last subject, Mr. President,

11     and concludes the examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

13             I think it would be best to take the break a bit earlier than we

14     would usually do so as to give the witness an opportunity to think about

15     his statement.

16             Witness, we'll take an early break.  I advised you to think about

17     whether your attestation given at the beginning of your testimony was a

18     valid attestation.  If you have any doubt, please tell us after the

19     break.  You may now follow the usher and we would like to see you back in

20     20 minutes.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we take the break, Mr. Lukic, have you read

24     the testimony of this witness in the Karadzic case?

25             MR. LUKIC:  I did, Your Honour, only when this witness came here

Page 28920

 1     to The Hague.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, nevertheless you present as evidence his

 3     statement without any further question -- questions in which - and I just

 4     limit myself to the line raised by Mr. Tieger - paragraph 35:

 5             "The law enforcement organs, the prosecutor's office of Prijedor

 6     municipality conducted investigations against both known and unknown

 7     perpetrators and filed misdemeanour and criminal reports against them

 8     all."

 9             We do understand that the witness did not deny what was put to

10     him by Mr. Tieger, and again we haven't read that so we have no opinion

11     about that, but at least the witness did not deny that he had withdrawn

12     from that in his Karadzic testimony.  Is --

13             MR. LUKIC:  What he explained is that he has general knowledge,

14     that he has some, that's more hearsay.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then --

16             MR. LUKIC:  He never claimed that he conducted investigations --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So--

18             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  -- then the questions that you should have put to

20     this witness if you would not have even withdrawn his statement, you

21     should have asked the witness:  The last line of paragraph 35, is that

22     your personal knowledge or is it what you heard or et cetera?  I mean, it

23     comes -- much of what the witness is supposed to have said here turns out

24     to be what he may have heard or not heard, a lot of things he said facing

25     the documents he had to step back from what he said.  And the witness

Page 28921

 1     just presents those as facts, and if he doesn't know and again I would

 2     like -- as a matter of fact, I'd like to see the portion in the Karadzic

 3     statement where he steps back from it, whether he said:  Well, I do know

 4     but not all the details.  Or did he say:  Well, actually, it's only what

 5     I heard but I have no personal knowledge?  Would you agree that we look

 6     at that portion which apparently Mr. Tieger had on his mind so that we

 7     know what situation we are facing as a Chamber at this moment.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I have no problems with that, but I think that

 9     everything is line with his -- today's answers.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that doesn't make it -- of course I'm

11     discussing this because of your own responsibility, not only for the

12     witness but also for you presenting this statement without any further

13     questions, without any further comments.

14             Therefore, Mr. Tieger, is there any way we could read on our

15     screens the relevant portion of the Karadzic statement -- testimony.

16             MR. TIEGER:  It's 65 ter 31659 at page 34.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, Mr. Lukic, if there's any other portion that

18     you consider to be relevant in this context, of course we'd look at that

19     as well.  Perhaps we just read it from our screens.  This Chamber can

20     read, the Judges of this Chamber.

21             Perhaps could we go back one page or is that because it seems

22     that it -- in the introduction is found in the previous page or is it --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tieger, you could direct us to the relevant

24     portion on the page?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Sure.  The question was:

Page 28922

 1             "I'm asking you about the bodies you belong to, the Crisis Staff

 2     and the executive" -- I'm sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you're reading --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  [Overlapping speakers] that side of the -- there's a

 5     discussion about this aspect, and I don't want to go back any farther

 6     than necessary.  The alleged prosecution and so on, it's somewhat

 7     detailed.  But then we begin by saying:

 8             "So in your statement" -- this is at the bottom of page 33.

 9             "So in your statement when you said police organs in the

10     prosecutor's office of the Prijedor municipality undertook various

11     investigations and filed misdemeanours and criminal reports against

12     perpetrators, what exactly is that based on if you can only name one

13     murder incident and you don't even know if the perpetrator was

14     prosecuted?

15             "A.  Well, I assumed that everybody did what they were supposed

16     to do, that courts and the prosecutor's office did what they were

17     supposed to and the police did the same.  One couldn't just turn a blind

18     eye on events that happened because they did happen, and I suppose that

19     they documented those things and that they caught the perpetrators.

20     There were talks about various people who had done things.  I didn't go

21     to the police or to the court to ask whether they followed through or not

22     and who the perps were."

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, that sounds very much as just an

24     assumption, that everyone did what they were supposed to do rather than

25     global knowledge of what happened.  It's just assumptions.

Page 28923

 1             MR. LUKIC:  If I may, Your Honour.  He started that sentence,

 2     only in English you have two sentences, in B/C/S it's one.  He started

 3     that sentence:

 4             "It is common knowledge ..."

 5             And then also --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- in that sentence you have "the prosecution" --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then if you know that there's a difference,

 9     why didn't you check that?  Why does the witness say that this was just

10     left overs and that -- I mean, it's not the first time that this Chamber

11     raises issues, and we know that we blamed for being partial in this

12     respect, we've seen that before.  But, Mr. Lukic, if the B/C/S says

13     something different, then we'd like to have that verified --

14             MR. LUKIC:  It's --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- during the break.

16             MR. LUKIC:  It's one sentence, that's what changes, that this

17     "general knowledge" is -- actually applies to the second sentence in

18     English --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes --

20             MR. LUKIC:  -- as well, the law, that law enforcement organs --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What I see is:

22             "It is common knowledge that individual and all manner of

23     killings took place, that is common knowledge."

24             Now, the next sentence --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Which is the same sentence in B/C/S.

Page 28924

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then we'll need to --

 2             MR. LUKIC:  It was comma instead of full stop in B/C/S.  But

 3     probably it's easier to translate in English with breaking here.  I don't

 4     even blame the translators, but really in B/C/S it's one sentence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  What we'll try to find out, whether CLSS

 6     during the break would be in a position to explain to the Chamber whether

 7     the phrase in paragraph 35 starting with "it is common knowledge,"

 8     whether linguistically the "common knowledge" would also extend to what

 9     follows after "the law enforcement organs, the prosecutor's office of

10     Prijedor conducted investigations against both known and unknown

11     perpetrators and filed misdemeanour and criminal reports against them

12     all."  Because the English translation does not suggest that the common

13     law -- the common knowledge phrase extends to that part.  If that is

14     debatable, if that's not perhaps what after verification turns out to be

15     the case, then the Chamber would like to know that.

16             Madam Registrar, I know that we are asking the impossible from

17     CLSS and we have done that already so many times, but if this portion of

18     the transcript, together with paragraph 35 of the witness's statement

19     could be given to CLSS and if we -- if only we could have a provisional

20     opinion about the question we have put, then the Chamber would appreciate

21     to know that before we resume and we intend to resume at quarter past

22     1.00 and we'll take a break until then.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.57 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 28925

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Welcome back, Mr. Mandic.  I asked you to think

 2     about the attestation you've given --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- at the beginning of your testimony, and I'll go

 5     through the questions again that were put by Mr. Lukic.  After you had

 6     made a correction to your statement, you changed the date from 30th of

 7     May to 30th of April, Mr. Lukic asked you whether the statement, after

 8     this correction, whether the facts stated in this statement, whether they

 9     are accurate as you told them to the Defence team of General Mladic.

10     Could you -- you then answered "yes."  Is your answer still "yes," that

11     this is what you told the Defence team?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the next question was whether the content

14     of the statement was accurate and truthful.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer was yes.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And it still is?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And now we've established that a

18     part is not adequate in relation to the time-period when communications

19     were down between Prijedor and the Krajina, or rather, and Pale.  That

20     was established -- actually, maybe it was an oversight on my part during

21     the defence of Mr. Karadzic.  This was a shorter period of time, not

22     several months.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there have been other instances such as

24     whether the take-over was triggered by the telegram or whether there have

25     been other events which happened and before and that preparations were

Page 28926

 1     made already, that in that respect I think you also corrected your

 2     statement, isn't it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I added that because that is

 4     how I understood the question, what initiated the take-over.  And then as

 5     the questions went on then we got to what was happening before that

 6     telegram on the 29th of April.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are other matters as well where you

 8     apparently seem to have no personal knowledge where you claimed facts to

 9     be as you described them, although not knowing personally about them.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I heard that not that I

11     saw it.  Do you understand that?  I live in that town, I ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You often said things happened where, as we

13     understand now, you wanted to say "I heard that it happened," which is

14     not the same.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes, exactly.  I mean, I

16     tend to equate that and then it's my jargon and --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do I then have to understand that whatever you

18     present as facts, that we should seriously consider that they may not be

19     facts but that it's just what you heard were the facts?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, no.  I mean, I think it's not

21     really that much.  I mean, we documented things and confirmed things,

22     things that happened.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then the last question that was put to you was

24     whether you'd -- if the same questions would be put to you today, whether

25     you'd answer the same.  And I took it and from your answer I also took it

Page 28927

 1     that you understood it to be that in substance it would be the same

 2     answers to those questions.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And that still stands, as far as you're concerned?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but maybe my formulation is

 6     not as expected from me, I mean simply I'm not very skilful at this kind

 7     of thing.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have, before I give an opportunity to

 9     Mr. Lukic to re-examine you, I have one other question.  You were asked

10     quite some questions by Mr. Tieger about massacres, people being killed,

11     et cetera.  Now, some of these events you stated that you had heard about

12     it and so to that extent you knew about them, but they do not appear in

13     your statement.  Do you have an explanation as to why you give quite some

14     details about all kind of things which now turn out to be hearsay rather

15     than personal knowledge, whereas you didn't say anything about hearsay on

16     such killings and massacres.  Do you have an explanation as why you

17     presented in hearsay what we find in your statement and that you did not

18     present as hearsay what Mr. Tieger asked you?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite simply, knowing that

20     such and such a thing happened, that I heard about it, that's what shows

21     that that kind of thing did happen, I mean I didn't state -- I don't know

22     whether it's necessary to state that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say that the killings were known anyhow,

24     you don't have to state that?  Or I do not fully understand perhaps what

25     you are --

Page 28928

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, along those lines, yes,

 2     in that sense, yes, that it's generally known and that quite simply I

 3     assume that the Prosecution and the Court know that and I don't have to

 4     describe it additionally, and then there's also the public security

 5     station, the court, the prosecutor's office in Prijedor -- I mean, if

 6     they all did their job I assume that everybody should do their job, at

 7     least that's the way I've been taught.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So you said all the nasty things that may have

 9     happened, you didn't include those in your statement, nasty things

10     against non-Serbs, you didn't include them in your statement because they

11     were commonly known and therefore there was no need to address them; is

12     that what you're telling us?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what to say to you.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Just answer the question, whether that's how we have

15     to understand your testimony.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's commonly known that it

17     happened and I gave that statement, I said that this kind of thing

18     happened and everything that happened is also there at the public

19     security station.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you say this is what you stated, but as a

21     matter of fact you did not state that it was common knowledge that

22     non-Serbs were killed in Keraterm or that during operations, cleansing

23     operations, a large number of non-Serbs were killed.  You expressed

24     yourself mainly on Serbs being attacked and Serbs being killed and not on

25     non-Serbs being attacked and non-Serbs being killed, and I'm asking you

Page 28929

 1     what explains that.  You spent quite a few words on killings and attacks

 2     against Serbs and that you apparently did not spend words on killings and

 3     massacres of non-Serbs.  And I'm asking you whether what explains that

 4     you focused on one and did not say anything about the other?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I cannot explain.  I

 6     don't know.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no explanation for that.  Then --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me.  Maybe, I thought

 9     at that moment that the Tribunal had information about what happened to

10     non-Serbs but that it did not have information about what happened to

11     Serbs.  Perhaps that was my thinking.  I mean, now that I'm so worked up

12     I cannot really say.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me stop you there.  Who gave you that

14     impression?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps my very own personal

16     impression.  It's not that somebody else gave me this impression.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I leave it to that.

18             Mr. Lukic, I will read what seems to be the provisional view of

19     CLSS.  It reads:

20             "The B/C/S version consists of two co-ordinated sentences.

21     'Common knowledge' does not extend to the second part of the sentence.

22     The English translation could also read:

23             "'It is common knowledge that'" and then what follows and "'the

24     law enforcement organs' ...  et cetera."

25             This is the provisional information we received from CLSS and of

Page 28930

 1     course it was done very quickly.  Mr. Lukic, if you have any questions in

 2     re-examination, you may put them to the witness now.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  If I can comment on this translation, I have to say

 4     that with full respect I do not agree.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  You do not agree.  That's fine.  Then we can

 6     argue that later on, but that is, and I said, provisional opinion given

 7     by CLSS and whether there's any room for further argument on the matter

 8     we'll learn that and you can make submissions at a later stage on that

 9     but we're not going to do that now.  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             Before I continue questioning this witness, I would just express

12     our position regarding hearsay evidence in this court.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Not in the presence of the witness.  You may do

14     so -- we'll give you an opportunity to do that, but we would first like

15     to see whether we can conclude the testimony of this witness.  And if you

16     say you need a lot of time, please be aware that the Chamber is not

17     convinced that part of the problems are not due to the way in which you

18     had taken the statement and how it was presented.  So therefore, use your

19     time as efficiently as possible.

20             MR. LUKIC:  If we can see P6948 now, we'll start with that one.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Lukic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mandic, first of all, good afternoon again.

23        A.   Good afternoon.

24        Q.   In this first paragraph as well as paragraph 3, number 1, namely

25     that in leading positions, in management positions, what positions were

Page 28931

 1     meant exactly, do you know?

 2        A.   This is a very broad concept.  I think it means public security,

 3     the army, and some other agencies and authorities where reliable people

 4     were needed, people loyal to the authorities.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Was the intention to include butchers, tradesmen?

 6        A.   No, only people who made important decisions.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  How do you understand, Mr. Witness, the phrase

 8     that says:  "All posts of importance for the functioning of economic

 9     entities," what would that include?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would be the electrical

11     distribution company, that means power transmission, also telecom,

12     telephone providers, some means of communication such as railways.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are we to understand you to be saying that

14     butchers and tradesmen are not part of economic entities?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, may I remind you that the focus was on

18     whether the test was ethnicity or anything else and that's -- that's the

19     most important element rather than to spend a lot of time on defining on

20     whether position A would just fall within or just fall outside the scope

21     of what is mentioned here.  The document is clear in this respect, that

22     it is not any post, not just everything, it should have a certain

23     importance.  But the focus, if I understand the questions of Mr. Tieger

24     well, is about whether ethnicity was, at least in the beginning of

25     paragraph 1 the item, and that loyalty would be an item for those who

Page 28932

 1     were of Serb ethnicity.  That is the issue which is central to the

 2     questions put by Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, that's why I directed the attention of

 4     this witness to paragraph 3 of the same.  So where it says:

 5             "Likewise, these posts may not be held by these employees of

 6     Serbian ethnicity who have not confirmed in the plebiscite or have not

 7     yet accepted that the only representative of the Serbian people is a

 8     Serbian Democratic Party."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now, it's -- I mean --

10             MR. LUKIC:  I just want to clarify which positions this

11     addresses, so no Muslims, no Croats, no Serbs according to this document

12     on these positions --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

14             MR. LUKIC:  -- or Serbs who are not loyal.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If the witness has any factual knowledge about it

16     and otherwise the interpretation of this document is for the parties and

17     for the Bench to further consider.  And it's perfectly clear that the

18     decision excludes in general terms non-Serbs and further excludes Serbs

19     to the extent they are not loyal.  That seems prima facie what the

20     document tells.  Please proceed.

21             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Mandic, did parties nominate their candidates for these

23     positions?

24        A.   I don't understand what you mean, what parties?  The SDS was the

25     only party.

Page 28933

 1        Q.   Before the take-over.

 2        A.   Yes, there was a division of power and each party nominated its

 3     members for different positions.

 4        Q.   At the time when this decision was made, power had been taken

 5     over and SDS was in power; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   In July 1992 -- [In English] That was part of my previous

 8     question, so I got an answer "yes."  I will move now to the next topic

 9     regarding Crisis Staffs.

10             [Interpretation] My learned friend Mr. Tieger put it to you

11     earlier today that the Crisis Staff existed before the take-over.  First

12     I'd like to ask you:  To the best of your knowledge was there one

13     Crisis Staff in Prijedor or several?

14        A.   In which period?  Because we've now established --

15        Q.   Let's say in the entire year of 1992, was one Crisis Staff

16     organised in Prijedor or more than one?

17        A.   According to some information I have, at the public security

18     station there was a separate Crisis Staff, apart from the Crisis Staff of

19     the municipality of Prijedor.

20        Q.   Do you know if the SDS had their own Crisis Staff?

21        A.   We've just established here that some sort of Crisis Staff

22     existed, and now we see, in various sessions which I did not attend, it

23     existed physically.  So obviously there was an SDS Crisis Staff.  It was

24     present on the ground.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know that it was present on the ground?

Page 28934

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant those decisions of the

 2     Municipal Board of the SDS, that's what I was alluding to, the

 3     Crisis Staff.  If they were calling themselves "Crisis Staff," then they

 4     should have been present or it was written erroneously, not "local

 5     commune" but "Crisis Staff."

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you attended meetings from what I

 7     understood from your testimony in which tasks and functioning of a

 8     Crisis Staff was discussed before the 30th of April?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  These are the facts you know.  Do you know anything

11     more about those Crisis Staffs, who were members of it, where they met,

12     what they did?  Do you know anything about it?  Not what you ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think the chairman of the

14     Crisis Staff was Simo Miskovic from the Municipal Board of the SDS.

15     Another member was also a deputy.  There may even be a list of people who

16     were members of the Crisis Staff ex officio.  If we could get that

17     document shown me by the Prosecutor earlier, we could see the names.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You say:  I think the chairman of the Crisis Staff

19     was Simo Miskovic.  Why do you think that?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's how I express myself.

21     I think.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but what do you know?  Did he tell you?  Is it

23     on the basis of the meetings that you learned that he was?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, based on the meetings.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

Page 28935

 1             Please proceed -- Mr. Lukic, I only want facts and the Chamber

 2     wants facts.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  We'll see the facts.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Not thoughts, not opinions.  Facts.  So the witness

 5     heard during the meetings that Simo Miskovic was the chairman of the

 6     Crisis Staff.  Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see P3733, please.  I apologise, it's P3773.

 8     That's a document we received later, so I would just kindly ask to see

 9     the bottom of the page.  We need the next page in English.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Under number 2 you see at the bottom of the page

11     in B/C/S it says:

12             "Commander of the Crisis Staff shall be the president of the

13     Municipal Board of the SDS of Prijedor."

14             This document was shown to you earlier by the Prosecution.  You

15     told us today that you'd heard this before, but did you see this document

16     before today, before the Prosecution showed it to you?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Who was the president of the Municipal Board of the

19     SDS of Prijedor?

20        A.   Simo Miskovic.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now we've cleared that up, let us clear up when the

22     Crisis Staff of which you were a member was established.  Let me show you

23     a document that we tendered as an associated exhibit.

24             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] P4086.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I ask whether there's any dispute about a

Page 28936

 1     Crisis Staff in which the witness was appointed being established at a

 2     later point in time?

 3             Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I'm at something of a disadvantage because I'm

 5     not conversant with the testimony of all witnesses who preceded this

 6     witness.  I presume we may be discussing the distinction between a

 7     Crisis Staff that pre-existed the conflict and Crisis Staff that existed

 8     in the aftermath of the Djeric instructions which this Court received,

 9     but I'm not sure about the nuances in which that distinction has been

10     presented so I would be a little reluctant to --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So there may be some dispute about that.

12             Mr. Lukic, the focus was on how reliable the testimony of the

13     witness was, which was talking about a Crisis Staff established after the

14     30th of April, where the witness, as he testified now, was aware of the

15     existence of a Crisis Staff, whether the same or not exactly the same,

16     prior to that.  And I think that the Prosecution introduced that evidence

17     in order to -- for the Chamber to assess the reliability and the

18     credibility of this witness.

19             MR. LUKIC:  Exactly, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger seems to -- seems to confirm that.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, in paragraph 6 of his statement this

22     gentleman is explicitly addressing a particular Crisis Staff.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and he --

24             MR. LUKIC:  And he says --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  -- doesn't say anything about the other Crisis Staff

Page 28937

 1     that he was apparently aware of that existed.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  My colleague Tieger tried to say that this paragraph

 3     6 is not truthful and I'm telling you it is.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think as a matter of fact that it has been

 5     established now that it's at least not the whole of the truth.  Let's

 6     leave it to that for the time being.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  No, no, this paragraph is exactly truthful.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  And I'll tell you why.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The whole truth.

11             MR. LUKIC:  It says:

12             "The Council for National Defence" [overlapping speakers] --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

14             MR. LUKIC:  "The Council for National Defence..." --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, one second.

16             MR. LUKIC:  -- "... decided" --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

18             Mr. Lukic, you may ask questions and then elicit the matter you

19     want to further --

20             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- clarify.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Mandic, in 6 you say:

23             "After the peaceful take-over of power in Prijedor on the 30th of

24     April, 1992, the Council for National Defence adopted a decision to set

25     up a Crisis Staff in order to more easily overcome the newly arisen

Page 28938

 1     complex political and security situation in the municipality of

 2     Prijedor."

 3             The Council for National Defence --

 4             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Let us look at the period before,

 5     P2871, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mandic, we are looking at the record from the 4th Session of

 7     the Council for National Defence of the Prijedor municipality dated

 8     15 May, 1992.  Under agenda item 1, it says:

 9             "Decision on the organisation and functioning of the

10     Crisis Staff."

11             Down below under conclusions number 1 on the same page, it says:

12             "The draft decision on the organisation and functioning of the

13     Crisis Staff is hereby accepted with the proviso that a representative of

14     the garrison in Prijedor be added to the proposed list of members of the

15     Crisis Staff."

16             Before this date and before this draft, did there exist a

17     Crisis Staff of which you were a member?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at P4086.  It's another document tendered

20     by the Prosecution today as associated to your testimony.  We read here:

21             "Pursuant to Article 110 of the Constitution of the

22     Serbian Republic in Article 4 of the decision of the organisation and

23     work of Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff, the Municipal Assembly of

24     Prijedor at its session held on 20th May 1992 adopted the following

25     decision on appointments to the Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff ..."

Page 28939

 1             Were you a member of that Crisis Staff?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now it says for the president, vice-president, and members of the

 4     Crisis Staff, the following people are appointed.

 5             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need the next page.

 6        Q.   We see the president and vice-president under numbers 1 and 2 and

 7     who's the man under number 5?

 8        A.   My humble self.

 9             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need page 2 in English.

10        Q.   We see this was signed by the president of the Municipal Assembly

11     and the date is 20 May 1992.  Do you have direct knowledge that the

12     Municipal Assembly of Prijedor decided to set up the Crisis Staff for the

13     municipality of Prijedor on 20th May 1992?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   We've seen in a previous document which was a record from a

16     session of the Council for National Defence dated 15 May 1992 that there

17     was a proposal for a member of the garrison to be also included in the

18     Crisis Staff.

19             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see in e-court

20     65 ter 31674.

21        Q.   As you can see, Mr. Mandic, we have before us an issue of the

22     Official Gazette of the municipality of Prijedor of 25 June 1992, and we

23     see that it promulgates the decision on the organisation and work of the

24     Prijedor municipal Crisis Staff.

25             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We will need paragraph 4 -- Article 4

Page 28940

 1     in fact.  Next page in English.

 2        Q.   It says in this Article 4 of the decision published in the

 3     Official Gazette that:

 4             "The Crisis Staff of Prijedor municipality consists of a

 5     president, a vice-president, and nine members.

 6             "The president of the Municipal Assembly shall serve ex officio

 7     as the president of the Crisis Staff and the vice-president of the

 8     Municipal Assembly as the vice-president of the Crisis Staff."

 9             And then follow the names of the members, indicating each of

10     their positions.  Where do you see yourself in this list, could you

11     please read till the end.

12             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We need to move to the next page in

13     English --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm again asking Mr. Tieger, this

15     Crisis Staff, the establishment of this after the take-over, is that in

16     dispute, irrespective of whether there was another Crisis Staff?

17             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President, it's not.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So then we don't have -- that's accepted by --

19     there's no dispute about this Crisis Staff being established.

20             Again, Mr. Lukic, the issue was whether the witness had given the

21     whole of the truth, and if you say A established a Crisis Staff, then

22     there are a few options.  And I don't think Mr. Tieger in this respect in

23     view of his questions, although he expressed himself not very accurately

24     in this respect by saying this is not true, I think what Mr. Tieger

25     intended to establish is that there was at least a Crisis Staff prior to

Page 28941

 1     that date which is relevant in this context and that by the line -- the

 2     statement by the witness that this may have given an impression which

 3     does not reflect the whole of the situation.  I think that's the issue

 4     and there's no further dispute about this Crisis Staff being established

 5     under those circumstances at a later stage.

 6             And we do know, and you have, I think, and there seems to be no

 7     dispute about that, that that other Crisis Staff was established not

 8     exactly by the secretary of National Defence but still a Crisis Staff

 9     functioning in the Prijedor context.  That seems to be the issue.  If

10     there's any further question to be asked about that, please do.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, in regard of this paragraph it's not

12     only mentioned it was double safe-guard.  It says first "Council for

13     National Defence decided," and the first safe-guard is:  "Following a

14     peaceful take-over of power in Prijedor on 30th of April, 1992."  So --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's exactly where the dispute is, whether

16     this presents a truthful picture by not saying anything about the other

17     Crisis Staff and exclusively dealing with this Crisis Staff.  That's

18     exactly the issue.  I don't think that the witness can help us out very

19     much.  I'm not --

20             MR. LUKIC:  I have no problem with that if you are going to apply

21     the same standard to Prosecutor witnesses.  I have no problem with that.

22     But we have to go back to every single witness of the Prosecution and see

23     what they did mention in their statements and what we elicited from their

24     cross-examination.  If that's the same standard, I'm ready to sacrifice

25     this witness.

Page 28942

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If a witness presents a picture by leaving out other

 2     elements which are relevant and give a distorted picture of the events, I

 3     think that this Chamber has always been very alert to establish that, and

 4     certainly in cross-examination the Defence has done a good job in many

 5     respects.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  With all due respect, we do not agree with your --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not -- I do not --

 8             MR. LUKIC:  -- that it's a distorted truth.  It's not.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I am not seeking your agreement.  Please proceed.

10             MR. LUKIC:  Still we need to conclude with this document because

11     it's not in evidence and we think it's crucial because it rebuts the

12     evidence of several Prosecution witnesses.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You can tender it and then we'll hear from

14     Mr. Tieger whether there's any objection.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Because in this document we can see the members --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic --

17             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- if you want to tender it?

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I do want to tender it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             Any objection?

22             MR. TIEGER:  No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document with number 31674 receives

25     number D827.

Page 28943

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.  Still I'll need some clarification from

 3     the witness since he's the only witness from the Crisis Staff for the

 4     Defence.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mandic, could you please tell us where you

 6     recognise yourself in Article 4 because there is no reference to any

 7     names here.  I'm sorry, I've just been told that the question has not

 8     been interpreted.  Where do you recognise yourself in paragraph 4?

 9     Because there are no names that have been referred to.

10        A.   The second line of the second paragraph:

11             "The commander of the municipal staff of civilian defence ..."

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we see the first page -- the earlier page

13     of --

14             MR. LUKIC:  In English.

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  -- or the first part of paragraph 4 in English.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, I apologise.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Did --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  It reads commander of the --

19             MR. LUKIC:  Yeah, it's --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- municipal people's defence staff.  That is

21     what --

22             MR. LUKIC:  Should be civilian defence, I think.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's a translation issue.  But that's where

24     the witness --

25             MR. LUKIC:  Yes.

Page 28944

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- finds that he was a member -- appointed member of

 2     that Crisis Staff.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Mandic, among these posts and later in the

 5     work of the Crisis Staff, was there anyone from the garrison or from the

 6     army there?  Do you see this amongst these positions that are referred

 7     to?

 8        A.   If you are addressing me, I did not understand the question or

 9     maybe I didn't hear it.  I apologise.

10        Q.   Among these office holders, are there any members of the Army of

11     Republika Srpska here and were any members of the Army of

12     Republika Srpska members of the Crisis Staff?

13        A.   No.  No one from the Army of Republika Srpska is on the list of

14     members of the Crisis Staff.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, I see it's --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I'm looking at the clock.  How much time would

17     you still need?

18             MR. LUKIC:  I'm trying to calculate now.  Probably not more than

19     15, 20 minutes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Tomorrow you have 15 minutes.  We'll -- Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Just very quickly, Mr. President.  I think the Court

22     went a long way to clarifying the issue of the Crisis Staffs.  I just

23     wanted to respond more explicitly to something the Court asked about the

24     reasons for introducing evidence related to that.  You focused on

25     credibility assessment and of course that's in part true but it was also

Page 28945

 1     obviously so that the Court would have a more full and proper evidential

 2     basis to asses the breach take-over circumstances.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The existence of a Crisis Staff there and the

 4     discussions on the A and B Variants.  That's understood.

 5             Mr. Mandic, we'll not finish today.  We'd like to see you back

 6     tomorrow morning.  It will be a short session.

 7             Mr. Tieger, could you already give an estimate as matters stand

 8     now as to how much time you would need?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  None.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mandic, we would like to see you back tomorrow

11     morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom, and I have to instruct you that

12     you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether it is

13     testimony already given or still to be given tomorrow.  So no

14     communication with whomever.  If that is clear to you, you may now follow

15     the usher.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is clear to me, thank you.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

19     Thursday, the 27th of November, 9.30 in the morning in this same

20     courtroom, I.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of

23                           November, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.