Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29027

 1                           Monday, 1 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             The Chamber was informed that there was one short preliminary

12     matter to be raised by the Prosecution.

13             MS. BIBLES:  Good morning, Your Honour.  Thank you.  The

14     Prosecution has received a revised English translation for P470, which

15     was originally 65 ter 03687.  The document was admitted through

16     Witness Dorothea Hanson on 7 November 2012 and was used again with

17     Witness Mijanovic on 25 November 2014, when an issue arose regarding the

18     translation.  See transcript 28830 to 28834, specifically T28833.  The

19     revised translation has been uploaded into e-court under doc

20     ID 022374700-ET.  It appears the Defence has no objection to the revised

21     translation, so we would request that the court officer be instructed to

22     replace the current translation with the revised version.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Bibles.  The Chamber was copied on an

24     e-mail sent by Mr. Djurdjevic to Ms. Stewart that the Defence has

25     objection to the revised English translation.

Page 29028

 1             Therefore, Madam Registrar, you are instructed to replace the

 2     existing translation by the one newly provided under the number as just

 3     mentioned by Ms. Bibles.  And that's it.

 4             Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Bilbija.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by

 9     the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of your

10     testimony.  Mr. Ivetic will now continue his examination-in-chief.

11             Mr. Ivetic.

12             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13                           WITNESS:  SIMO BILBIJA [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Examination by Mr. Ivetic: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good morning, Doctor.

17        A.   [In English] Good morning.

18        Q.   I would like to start off where we left off, and I'd like to call

19     up D832 and I'd like to look at page 8 in both languages and paragraph 9

20     of your written statement.

21             In paragraph 9, sir, you talk of the medical treatment for a

22     little girl from Gorazde.  What role, if any, did General Mladic and the

23     VRS Main Staff play in this event?

24        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.  In this case, General Mladic's

25     role was manifested, as far as I can remember, at the moment when the

Page 29029

 1     girl's treatment was already over; that is to say, she stayed in hospital

 2     even once her medical treatment was completed.  As for the role of

 3     General Mladic, it had to do with the moment when the girl was supposed

 4     to be returned to her parents.  So there were several contacts between

 5     the hospital and the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, until

 6     finally this return was organised - I don't remember exactly when or how

 7     that happened.  I just remember that we said good-bye to the girl because

 8     she had really become everyone's pet at the hospital.

 9             MR. IVETIC:  And if we could stay on the same page in the Serbian

10     and go to the next page in the English, I'd like to look at --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic --

12             MR. IVETIC:  Yeah.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  -- could you establish a time-frame for this

14     episode.

15             MR. IVETIC:

16        Q.   Doctor, do you recall what the time-frame was for this incident

17     involving Minka Zivojevic of Gorazde, at least a year?

18        A.   I think that was 1992.  I don't remember exactly.  I cannot

19     remember the date when this occurred.  I think it was summertime.

20        Q.   And do you recall for approximately how long this individual had

21     stayed at the hospital after her initial treatment?

22        A.   Well, I'd say perhaps even longer than a month, because the girl

23     was already doing fine but she just stayed there and became friends with

24     everybody at the hospital.  The nurses were very kind to her because

25     there weren't really any other children there.  She was staying at the

Page 29030

 1     ward where I worked, so in a way this little girl became attached to me

 2     as well.

 3        Q.   And now if we could turn to the next page in the English, I'd

 4     like to look at paragraph 11 of your statement.  And here you talk about

 5     what you saw from the helicopter, these fires.  What exactly did you

 6     learn about who had started the fires and for what reason?

 7        A.   Did I understand you correctly?  Are we speaking about the night,

 8     the night, Srebrenica, flying?

 9        Q.   Yes, we are.

10        A.   That night the General personally ordered me to go to Srebrenica

11     where something had happened.  A Canadian soldier, when the garbage was

12     being burned, he set his own uniform on fire and sustained burns in that

13     way.  Two helicopters came to pick me up at the football stadium in

14     Sokolac and I went to Srebrenica that way.  From the helicopter we saw

15     fire in several places.  It was about 11.00 in the evening.  We saw

16     several fires in the dark.  I asked the soldiers in the helicopter what

17     all of that was, and they told me that these were fires that the

18     population of Srebrenica were starting on hilltops so that aircraft

19     throwing packages of humanitarian aid could orientate themselves and know

20     where they should drop them from these planes.  When we landed at the

21     football stadium in Srebrenica, I think we exchanged a few words on that

22     topic there as well and got the same answer.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   That soldier who had suffered the burns had already received

25     first aid and had already been taken care of in that way.  So he was just

Page 29031

 1     put into the helicopter and we returned.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, same question:  Time-frame?  And could

 3     you also further explore with whom he had a conversation when he had

 4     landed.

 5             MR. IVETIC:

 6        Q.   Doctor, you've heard the comments of the Presiding Judge.  Could

 7     you offer any assistance as to the time-frame?

 8        A.   Yes.  I think it was in the autumn of 1992.  Now the conversation

 9     at the stadium, who it took place with, again these were uniformed men

10     from UNPROFOR.  I don't remember there was anyone there who spoke

11     Serbian.

12        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  What was then the language you used for your

14     conversation?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] English.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. IVETIC:  And I'd now like to look at paragraphs 16 through 17

18     on page 4 in both languages.

19        Q.   Here you discuss a medivac evacuation of persons from Srebrenica.

20     First I want to ask you:  Were these persons civilians or soldiers that

21     were being evacuated?

22        A.   As for this evacuation from Srebrenica, everyone wore civilian

23     clothing, but some of the persons who had boarded the helicopter were

24     wounded persons and these wounds had been sustained quite a while ago.

25     So their medical treatment had already been well underway.  They

Page 29032

 1     themselves said that they were soldiers.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And in relation to the order that you received from

 3     General Mladic in relation to participating in this medevac as indicated

 4     at the last sentence in paragraph 17, were such types of orders from

 5     General Mladic, were they out of the ordinary?  Extraordinary?

 6        A.   General Mladic sometimes, rarely, was in a position to issue

 7     orders to me directly as regards our work.  He never missed the

 8     opportunity to underline the following to us:  That we should strictly

 9     behave in accordance with the rules of our profession and that we should

10     take good care, if it has to do with the wounded of the other side or

11     civilians, et cetera, persons of a different religion and so on, that no

12     one should feel that they have not been given full treatment or full

13     attention.

14        Q.   And lastly, Doctor, this medevac operation from Srebrenica in

15     April of 1993, approximately how many persons were evacuated in the

16     course of that operation?

17        A.   The evacuation took place with two helicopters.  A large number

18     of people boarded these helicopters.  We knew that exactly then, I don't

19     know exactly, but I think about 20 people could be taken in a single

20     helicopter.  They took these people to Tuzla, and during that time we

21     would be waiting there and during the day I think there would be four

22     trips.

23        Q.   Thank you, Doctor, for answering my questions.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes the direct examination.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

Page 29033

 1             Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Zec to cross-examine the

 2     witness, could you tell us, you said four trips, 20 people on board of a

 3     helicopter.  Were all of those 80, were they all soldiers or were some of

 4     them soldiers?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just some of them were soldiers and

 6     I would say a smaller number at that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I have a question too.  Were these four trips by

 9     each helicopter?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four times for both helicopters

11     because they fly together, in pairs.

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  So there would be about 160 people?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say that that would be an

14     appropriate estimate --

15             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- remembering all the people who

17     were waiting there and so on.

18             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And I thank my colleague for correcting my having

20     ignored that there were two helicopters rather than one.  His math is

21     better than mine.

22             Mr. Zec, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

23             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bilbija, you'll now be cross-examined by

25     Mr. Zec, you'll find him to your right.  Mr. Zec is counsel for the

Page 29034

 1     Prosecution.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

 5        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Bilbija.

 6        A.   [In English] Good morning.

 7        Q.   You told us in your statement about your employment before the

 8     war.  At this time, Mr. Bilbija, you were a reserve officer in the JNA

 9     with the rank of captain; correct?

10        A.   [Interpretation] That's right.

11        Q.   In paragraph 7 you say you transferred to Sokolac at the end of

12     May 1992 and that you were admitted into active military service with the

13     rank of major.  As of 1992, you were active officer within VJ, the

14     Yugoslav army; correct?

15        A.   That's right.

16        Q.   And your service with VJ was terminated in 1998.  At that time

17     you held the rank of lieutenant-colonel; correct?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct.

19        Q.   In paragraph 6 you talk about your discussions with

20     General Mladic regarding your deployment to Benkovac and then you say you

21     went to Sipo in 1992.  So in April 1992 when you moved to Bosnia, you

22     discussed with General Mladic transport of weapons; correct?

23        A.   Could you please repeat that question.

24        Q.   You already told us in your statement about your discussions with

25     General Mladic regarding your deployment to Benkovac and then you said in

Page 29035

 1     April 1992 you went to Sipo during the Kupres operations.  So my question

 2     is:  When you talked to General Mladic in April 1992, you discussed with

 3     him transport of weapons; correct?

 4        A.   I do recall such a conversation.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Can we have P352 and we need page 163 in both

 6     languages.  And for the B/C/S version we will need transcript of the

 7     notebook, not the handwritten version.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, in front of you -- on the screen in front of you

 9     it's coming, it's a notebook of General Mladic.  And we will be looking

10     at the entry dated 3 April 1992.  And it says:

11             "Dr. Simo Bilbija:

12             "I expected you to call me concerning the vehicle given for

13     transport of weapons."

14             So this was what you discussed with General Mladic; correct?

15        A.   I talked to General Mladic many times.  What you are showing me

16     now doesn't jog my memory at all.  I don't remember any of this, but what

17     I do remember is that I always talked to him about medical matters,

18     surgery, the treatment of wounded persons.  I cannot recall what this is,

19     this that you have been speaking about.

20        Q.   Well, having an opportunity to see this entry, does this refresh

21     your memory about your discussions with General Mladic regarding

22     transport of weapons?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, I think the witness answered the question

24     already.

25             MR. ZEC:  I'll move on.  Thank you.

Page 29036

 1        Q.   In paragraph 16, you say you were involved in evacuations of

 2     wounded from Srebrenica to Tuzla in April 1993.  You did not provide any

 3     context, but this Chamber has received evidence about the events in the

 4     Eastern Bosnia in -- leading up to April 1993, including evidence about

 5     VRS combat operations in the area, forcing many civilians to flee towards

 6     Srebrenica.  And in March 1993, many of these civilians held

 7     General Morillon, commander of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica, asking him for

 8     help and this was when General Morillon asked his headquarters to

 9     negotiate an agreement to take by helicopter those who were most

10     seriously injured, to take them out.

11             MR. ZEC:  And this can be found in P317, paragraphs 176 through

12     192.

13        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, were you aware of these events leading up to your

14     involvement in the evacuations in April 1993?

15        A.   I would like to ask you to repeat the question.  Was I aware

16     of -- informed about what was going on or what?

17        Q.   Yes, correct.  Did you know -- were you aware about the events in

18     the area of Eastern Bosnia, including Srebrenica, in the period leading

19     up to your involvement in these evacuations in April 1993?

20        A.   Yes, I was aware of what was going on in the manner and to the

21     extent of general information, public information.  We knew that

22     Srebrenica was in encirclement, we knew that negotiations were underway

23     to find a solution for that situation.  But as for the actual medevac

24     action, I learned about it only at the point in time when I received an

25     order to go there.  Is that sufficient?

Page 29037

 1        Q.   And during this period, including the period of the time of your

 2     visit, were you aware of the conditions in Srebrenica and that there

 3     was --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue with that, could we more

 5     systematically go to what you put to the witness, Mr. Zec.

 6             Mr. Zec also mentioned VRS combat operations forcing many

 7     civilians to flee towards Srebrenica.  Were you aware of that at the

 8     time?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time I knew what we could

10     find out from the media.  There were no information -- there was no

11     information that would be official information.  That's something that I

12     didn't receive about what was happening there.  Better said, I was not

13     aware of the details of the situation.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you aware of VRS operations resulting in

15     civilians fleeing to Srebrenica?  Official, unofficial, media, were you

16     aware of these things happening?  And if so, by what source?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We knew but the source of

18     information was mostly the news that was broadcast on TV.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you were aware of VRS combat operations

20     resulting in civilians fleeing to Srebrenica?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we knew that combat actions

22     were going on.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bilbija, you are an intelligent man.  Is there

24     any reason why you leave out always half of what I ask you?  I asked you

25     about VRS operations resulting in civilians fleeing.  And then you say:

Page 29038

 1     Yes, of course we were aware, we knew about operations.  You leave out

 2     half of what I put to you.  You did exactly the same with one of the

 3     previous questions of Mr. Zec.  You confirm half of it and what --

 4     another part which may be important as well, you just leave it out.  Were

 5     you aware of VRS operations?  You said "yes."  Were you aware of that

 6     resulting in civilians fleeing?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Why didn't you answer right in the beginning:

 9     I was aware of the operations, I learned from the media that it happened,

10     but I was not aware of civilians fleeing?  The answer is so simple from

11     what I understand now.

12             Mr. Zec, please proceed.

13             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, you said you went to Srebrenica, and were you aware

15     during the period before your trip to Srebrenica or the time when you

16     were there about the conditions in town, that there was a growing number

17     of civilians who were either killed or injured by VRS shelling of the

18     town?  Were you aware of that?

19        A.   I hope that with my answer to this question I will also satisfy

20     the Presiding Judge regarding the previous remarks regarding my answers.

21     So we knew that combat actions were going on.  As for the fact that a

22     large number of civilians from the surrounding area had sought refuge in

23     Srebrenica, that was something that we had just heard of from

24     conversations amongst ourselves.  Once I personally came to Srebrenica,

25     then I could see for myself that the stories that we had heard were true.

Page 29039

 1     I saw many people there.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So you answered to one of the previous questions

 3     was:  I knew that many civilians had gone to Srebrenica, where you just

 4     said that you were not aware of civilians fleeing to Srebrenica.  Now,

 5     you've left out again part of the question.  You are talking about combat

 6     operations.  Were you aware of any shelling on the town of Srebrenica?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot confirm that I knew that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, did you know it or not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I didn't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Fine.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you permit me just to complete

12     my answer to this question.  Once I came to Srebrenica --

13             MR. ZEC:

14        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, my question --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may complete his answer, as he

16     requested.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the course of the day during the

18     evacuation, I was with a young colleague of mine who had spent months in

19     Srebrenica together with those civilians, treating the wounded, and I

20     spoke with him in detail during the time the helicopters took to go to

21     Tuzla and come back.  So I asked him:  How did you manage?  What did you

22     do?  How did you do the surgeries?  And it was a peer-to-peer kind of

23     contact.  During this conversation, the need arose for us to go to the

24     hospital.  It wasn't a need, actually, it was just collegial curiosity,

25     his desire to show me where he was working.  And as we were going to the

Page 29040

 1     hospital he showed me one place in the street where a shell had struck.

 2     So I saw a place where some sort of explosion left some sort of trail.

 3     He told me:  See, look, this is where a shell fell.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, so you say shelling --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is how I found out.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- one shell is the only thing you know that fell

 7     without any further details as when, but that's all you know about

 8     shelling of the town of Srebrenica?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what I saw.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you hear anything?  Did he -- did someone

11     tell you that it was not the only shell that fell, that many had fallen

12     or that a few had fallen and when it was?  Did you hear anything further?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When he showed me that, the

14     colleague said that there had been several shells.  We didn't really

15     discuss that in detail.  He said that there were a number of them in town

16     and then we continued our conversation on a different topic.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zec.

18             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Can we have 65 ter 12949.

20        Q.   And, Mr. Bilbija, coming on the screen will be UNPROFOR letter to

21     Dr. Karadzic on 12 April 1993.  It is in English but I'm going to read

22     for you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently the witness also understands English.

24             Do you understand English?  So therefore we leave it to you

25     whether you --

Page 29041

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand it, yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So we -- you can read what Mr. Zec says on the

 3     transcript which is on your screen.

 4             Mr. Zec, please proceed.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Yes.  Thank you.

 6             And we need paragraph 1, which is on the next page.

 7        Q.   And paragraph 1 starts with:

 8             "Despite the promise of the pursuit of a political solution to

 9     the problem of Srebrenica, which I was given by General Mladic, I have

10     received the following report from my people from Srebrenica ...

11             "The latest casualty estimate in Srebrenica is 35 dead and

12     68 wounded but these are only those who had approached the hospital.  MSF

13     doctors report 10 of the wounded are likely to die in the next 24 hours.

14     We believe there are other wounded in private homes and additional dead

15     were not taken to hospital.

16             "I personally have seen and counted 14 dead including 7 bodies on

17     the road in front of the schoolhouse used as a refugee centre, where it

18     appears most casualties occurred.  2 of the 7 bodies I saw in front of

19     the hospital were children and one was decapitated."

20             Paragraph 2, towards the end it says:

21             "Even if there was some provocation of fire, this targeting of

22     civilians is very hard to believe, let alone to ... justify."

23             So, Mr. Bilbija, this incident and the shelling which also I

24     believe you referred to earlier to Judge Orie's question, so were you

25     aware of this shelling causing this many casualties during the course of

Page 29042

 1     one day in April 1993?

 2        A.   No, I didn't know about this.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I tender this document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 12949 receives number P6958,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. ZEC:

 9        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, during your visit to Srebrenica did you see or hear

10     about hundreds and hundreds of people living on the street, having

11     nowhere to go?  Did you?

12        A.   During my visit to Srebrenica, which lasted that whole day, we

13     spent the time at the football-pitch where the triage was being carried

14     out of those who were brought and transported to the pitch in order to be

15     boarded to the helicopters.  And --

16        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, people were living on the street, having nowhere to

17     go.  Did you see them while going to the health centre?

18        A.   Yes, this is exactly what I was going to tell you.  We went to

19     the health centre and you could observe many people in town, but I

20     couldn't get the impression that these people were living on the street.

21     There were many people on the windows of the buildings which were

22     immediately next to the football-pitch, where the process of boarding was

23     going on.  Once we came to the medical centre we saw people in the yard

24     of the health centre.  The doctor who was a local doctor who had brought

25     me there introduced me to some of these people.

Page 29043

 1        Q.   And in the health centre, did you see or did the doctor tell you

 2     about the conditions they were working in, no equipment, no water, no

 3     clean sheets, no space to put all the people who needed medical help?

 4     Did you know about that?

 5        A.   Are you asking me if I knew that before I came or whether I found

 6     that out when I arrived?  What are you asking me?

 7        Q.   When you were there and talking to the doctor.

 8        A.   Yes, this is what I wanted to say.  He took me to visit and took

 9     me through the whole medical centre, introducing me to some members of

10     the medical centre staff on the way.  This was interesting for me to see,

11     that's why we came, because I was interested in seeing it.  I asked him

12     to go there.  I wanted to find out how he managed, what did he do, did he

13     have the supplies.  So he was explaining to me how he worked.  Because

14     during those few months - I don't know how long that period was that

15     Srebrenica was encircled - he was the only doctor who was able to carry

16     out any kind of surgical interventions.  As far as his skill and training

17     and technical and material capacities that were at his disposal in the

18     medical centre --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm waiting now for approximately ten lines

20     for you to answer the question:  Did you find out about a lack of

21     equipment, no water, no clean sheets, did you find out about that?  And

22     if Mr. Zec would like to know whether -- how you found out or whether

23     there was sometimes water or not, he'll ask you.  But was there a lack of

24     supplies, equipment?  Was there no water?  Were there no clean sheets?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was the situation

Page 29044

 1     according to what the doctor said.  He explained it more in terms of

 2     occasional shortage of water, shortage of medical supplies.  I don't

 3     recall that we ever mentioned sheets.  His medical centre, objectively

 4     speaking, and as far as my impression goes, it just looked like any

 5     medical centre on the other side, on my side.  It was nothing special.

 6     He said that he received things from doctors from Doctors Without

 7     Borders.  And that there was some supplies from humanitarian air-drops

 8     and that there was a depot of equipment, and then from that depot he gave

 9     me a present.  He gave me a stethoscope.

10             MR. ZEC:

11        Q.   I'm going now to show you a video of Srebrenica at the time --

12             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just before we do that, can I just get

13     clarification of something you talked about earlier.  You talked of

14     seeing many people on the windows.  I'm not quite sure I understand what

15     you mean by that.  Could you please explain a little more what you mean

16     by that.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I came to Srebrenica we knew

18     that there was a large number of civilians there and --

19             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Let me stop you.  Just what did you mean by "many

20     people on the windows"?  I know you saw many people when you came to

21     Srebrenica.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I wanted to say was that the

23     evacuation from Srebrenica had attracted a lot of attention.  People were

24     curious.  Some people were standing around the football-pitch and

25     watching --

Page 29045

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Just let me stop you -- let me stop you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then in the neighbouring

 3     buildings people were standing at the windows.

 4             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.  That's much better.  Standing at the

 5     windows outside the buildings?  If you can say in words rather than nod

 6     your head for the record.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were looking through the

 8     windows at the football-pitch, and you could see two or three persons at

 9     each of the windows.

10             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Through the windows.  So they're inside the

11     buildings, looking --

12             THE WITNESS:  Inside the building, looking out.

13             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much, sir.

14             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Now I'm going to show you a video of Srebrenica at the time, and

16     perhaps you will be able to recognise some of the images.

17             MR. ZEC:  The video is 65 ter 22852A.  The videotape has ERN

18     number V000-7050-1-A.  It is 6 minutes and 30 seconds long.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, we have provided the B/C/S transcript --

21     translations of the video to the interpreters.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. ZEC:  And we also have asked the CLSS to confirm the accuracy

24     of the transcript, which they kindly did.  So I suggest we play the video

25     only once with the translation.

Page 29046

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That is fine.  Time-frame for the video, source of

 2     the video?

 3             MR. ZEC:  So the tape I identified, that is how long the tape is,

 4     6 minutes and 30 seconds, and --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I mean with time-frame, when was it

 6     recorded, was it broadcasted?  Is it a private recording?  What is it we

 7     are looking at, apart from it being a video.

 8             MR. ZEC:  It was a journalist who was in Srebrenica in the period

 9     late March/early April 1993 and he recorded that video.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Let's look at it.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             "Tony Birtley:  My first recollection is arriving at a village

13     near Srebrenica just to be totally engulfed by hundreds and hundreds of

14     people.  I thought I was standing in a movie and I kept expecting

15     somebody to say:  Okay, cut.  And all these people with these drawn,

16     haunted faces, and they all got expressionless faces, it's like life had

17     drained out of them.  Life is ebbing away.  There was very little caring

18     by the so-called authorities following your arrival.  Nobody cared for

19     the refugees.  They were left for days on the street.  No one cared

20     anything about them.  They arrived, you know, we followed a family

21     through and they had been walking for something like 17 hours.  You know,

22     the mother carrying a little boy who had been wounded by shrapnel in the

23     hand.  He had been wounded at the same time as his father.  They came,

24     they didn't know where they were going, they had no relatives and no

25     friends.

Page 29047

 1             "Where does this man recommend they can sleep?  Where does this

 2     man recommend they can go?

 3             "Unknown man:  I don't know where.  This town has 60.000 refugees

 4     and there's only room for 10.000.  Have you seen how many people are

 5     sleeping on the street?

 6             "Tony Birtley:  We helped them carry the sacks.  I mean, it was a

 7     very, very small gesture, but this woman was toiling under two great

 8     sacks, and I must admit, I found one sack very difficult and she had two

 9     of them.  And it struck me that I can't believe that these people, their

10     people, and they didn't want to know.  And then the father, he was

11     treated in the hospital, and it was very tragic to see the little boy on

12     the couch and the father on the couch and they'd both been wounded.

13     And -- but actually, when treatment's finished, they're out because they

14     can't have a space in the sought-after wards, because you can only have

15     room for so many.  And it was never intended to be a hospital, more a

16     clinic.  It's not a place where you can get the best possible treatment.

17     And even the surgeon who I got to know quite well was very honest about

18     that.  You would come in there, you would have an operation very quickly.

19     Your limb would come off, you would have your stomach sewn back in,

20     shrapnel taken out as quickly as possible.  If you were quite ill, you

21     would stay in one of the wards and the wards are abysmal.

22             "What the video cannot convey is the stench of unwashed sheets,

23     unwashed bodies, of wounds becoming infected.  I mean, they would always

24     come and get -- they wanted to show me everything that was going on.  Me,

25     I was a way of telling the world the first time -- for the first time

Page 29048

 1     that everything they've said over ham radio is true.  So whatever

 2     happened in the town they would say:  'Get Tony, get Tony.'  And they'd

 3     call me into casualty.

 4             "All these little girls, there's about five or six little girls

 5     who've been hit by a shell and this little boy as well.  And there was

 6     two screaming, although they had very small injuries.  But there was the

 7     10-year-old girl who was lying and she had, you know, what I've heard so

 8     many times in Srebrenica and Sarajevo as well, what they call the 'death

 9     look.'  Her eyes are going blank.  And they had been hit, they were out

10     playing the south end of town.  And later on we went to their home and

11     one of them heard that her 4-year-old sister had been killed, she was

12     killed instantly.  And the mother was distraught and was weeping and

13     wailing.  And it -- like, you know, normal scenes, I think, in Bosnia.

14     It's normality, that's the terrifying thing about it.

15             "The medevac by helicopter was something that there was great

16     uncertainty about, particularly by the Bosnian authorities.  They didn't

17     believe for one moment the Serbs would allow helicopters in and out of

18     here, despite the fact that General Morillon was very, very confident.

19     After the helicopters took off with their first batch of wounded, within,

20     I don't know, two minutes, a shell.  And it was artillery shell because

21     you could hear that one coming in.  You get a, shhhh, huge bang.

22             "UN soldier:  Roger.  I have more incoming, more incoming.  Over.

23             "Tony Birtley:  The majority of shrapnel sprayed to the south and

24     that's why the two Canadian soldiers were wounded because they were

25     further south.  When this huge, confused scene was going on in the

Page 29049

 1     hospital of patching up the Canadian soldiers, lying quietly on a bench

 2     was this 5-year-old little boy who had been badly injured in a southern

 3     part of town in a separate incident by a Serbian mortar and it was hoped

 4     that he would be evacuated with the Canadian soldier.  But as he went

 5     back down to the soccer field, the soccer field was shelled again.  So

 6     the French colonel who had come in with the helicopters decided that

 7     there would be a medevac, but no landing on the soccer field, so they had

 8     to be winched up.  But before the Canadian soldiers had been winched up,

 9     the baby had died in the arms of one of the Canadian soldiers.

10             "It just seemed to me that it's a great injustice in some

11     respects to these people that although we will put on helicopter flights

12     when it's dangerous to evacuate UN soldiers, we're not prepared to do

13     that for a 5-year-old boy who's an innocent victim.  And it's a most

14     tragic scene, you know, a father taking a little boy wrapped up in his

15     golden plastic covering to keep him warm, sobbing uncontrollably, and his

16     sobs and his weeping was drowned out by the blades of the helicopters as

17     they winched up the Canadian soldiers and went off.  And it seemed to sum

18     up a lot about Srebrenica and Bosnia, that basically these people, you

19     know, they come second."

20             MR. ZEC:

21        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, this was the reality of Srebrenica and the

22     conditions in which people were living there; correct?

23        A.   This footage does not show that day when I was in Srebrenica,

24     that is not that day.  This could have been some other day.  The day that

25     I spent in Srebrenica was quiet, sunny, everything was going on in a

Page 29050

 1     planned manner as far as the transport was concerned.  There were no

 2     incidents, there were no explosions.  I wasn't -- I wasn't following

 3     whether the date of the film refers to that date.  Is that what the film

 4     is trying to say?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, if you say it was not on the day you were

 6     there, how do you know?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I see in the footage --

 8     actually, two Canadian soldiers who had been wounded are mentioned and

 9     there is this wounded child that is dying in his father's arms, but none

10     of that could have happened without me knowing about it then.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  First of all, I think that Mr. Zec asked primarily

12     about the situation of people living on the streets, which was shown in

13     the beginning of the footage.  Could you please focus on that and tell us

14     whether you consider it equally impossible that those shots were recorded

15     on the day you were there?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no doubt.  I believe,

17     actually, that it is impossible that this footage was taken on that day

18     because the stadium and the medical centre are only a few hundred metres

19     away from each other.  The multitude of people, those scenes correspond

20     to my memory.  I already said that I saw a lot of people in the yard of

21     the medical centre, but there were no explosions, especially not wounded

22     UNPROFOR soldiers or this child, no.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first focus on the images you saw about people

24     in the street.  You said, well, you saw them in the courtyard of the

25     hospital but what we saw on the video, whatever it is, seems not to be

Page 29051

 1     the courtyard of a hospital but seems to be a street in which people are

 2     more or less living; that is, they have fires, they have tables, they

 3     have chairs, sitting there, doing all kind of everyday activities.  Let's

 4     focus on that first.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I've already

 6     answered, Mr. President.  I saw a lot of people, but I did not see what I

 7     see in the footage here, those fires, all of that -- I mean, we've all

 8     seen it now, but I didn't see it then.  It's true that we took this

 9     vehicle and went through.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You just stop me, you don't want me

12     to continue; right?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You've answered the question what you saw on the

14     footage was not what you saw at that point in time in town when you went

15     from the stadium to --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

18             I think we should take a break first, Mr. Zec.

19             We take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20 minutes.  You

20     may follow the usher.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, you were speaking aloud.  Did I hear you

23     well that you mentioned the name of the Prosecutor who is cross-examining

24     this witness?  You may answer that question now.  Did you use that name,

25     speaking aloud?  A yes or a no, please.

Page 29052

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said "Zec."  Zec is a last name

 2     in our parts and I asked the lawyer whether Mr. Zec --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, I just asked you --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You won't allow me to speak.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I want you to answer my question and you have

 6     done so.  You apparently have loudly spoken, pronouncing the name of

 7     Mr. Zec.  We'll --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Zec.  I pronounced it Zec --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you now please -- please stop speaking.  We'll

10     consider -- we'll consider what the consequence of loudly pronouncing the

11     name of the Prosecutor who is cross-examining the witness, what

12     consequences that may have.  You'll hear from us after the break.  We'll

13     take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We don't have to wait until after the break.  Could

16     Mr. Mladic be removed from the courtroom until the end of the testimony

17     of this witness because he continued to speak aloud when it was perfectly

18     clear that not only in general terms he is not allowed to do so, but

19     under the specific circumstances it's even more serious.

20                           [The accused withdrew]

21             We take a break.  Mr. Mladic is not to be taken into the

22     courtroom after the break.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 29053

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bilbija, we'll continue.  By the way, in the

 2     absence of Mr. Mladic we'll continue.

 3             Mr. Zec will now continue his cross-examination.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, the shelling of the UNPROFOR that we saw on the

 7     video, that was one of the Serb attempts to obstruct the process of

 8     evacuations; right?

 9             MR. IVETIC:  I object as to the foundation of the question.  The

10     witness has very clearly identified in detail that this was not the

11     occasion that he was involved in, so I'd like to hear from the

12     Prosecution as to their position that this is April of 1993.

13             MR. ZEC:  I will --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec.

15             MR. ZEC:  I will reformulate my question.

16        Q.   Mr. Bilbija, were you aware of the Serb attempts to obstruct the

17     process of evacuations?

18             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, I will object as it is unspecific and

19     generic and calls for speculation.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness may answer the question.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. ZEC:

23        Q.   Mr. Bilbija --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Bilbija, could you please answer that question,

25     whether you were aware of Serb attempts to obstruct the process of

Page 29054

 1     evacuations?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I was not aware of such

 3     attempts because that part of the evacuation that I took part in myself

 4     proceeded in an unhindered fashion, and as I've already said, I had

 5     received orders from my superiors how to work, how to behave, and I've

 6     already spoken about that too.  In addition to that, I was not the only

 7     person in that group of Serb officers who arrived in Srebrenica on that

 8     day.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 09358.  And this is a UN report

10     about the events of 24 March 1993.

11        Q.   Again, it will be in English but I will read for you.

12             MR. ZEC:  65 ter 09358.  And also there is a B/C/S translation of

13     this document.

14        Q.   In paragraph 1 it says:

15             "The helicopter mission to evacuate wounded from Srebrenica was

16     scheduled to begin at 0845 hrs local time on 24 March 93 following full

17     clearance from Dr. Karadzic ..."

18             Paragraph 2:

19             "Tuzla airfield was shelled (15 impacts) ... but no damage to

20     helicopters or injuries were sustained.  The mission was confirmed ... at

21     0800 hrs and the first wave of Pumas flew to Zvornik for the agreed

22     inspection of cargo.  The Serb inspectors were totally obstructive ..."

23             In paragraph 3 it says:

24             "So that the process of -- that the evacuation should not fail

25     because of these difficulties, the Landing Zone group were flown back to

Page 29055

 1     Tuzla in 2 lifts by one of the Pumas, while the remaining 3 aircraft now

 2     'cleared' flew on to Srebrenica, arriving at ... 1130 ... at the same

 3     time 12 shells impacted in the area of the PTT building in

 4     Srebrenica ..."

 5             A few lines below:

 6             "The helicopters took off at 1158 ... and at 1203 hrs 4 rounds

 7     impacted ... followed shortly by a further 6 rounds which wounded

 8     2 UN personnel (Canadian) and 1 civilian.  One of the Canadians sustained

 9     serious head wounds."

10             Paragraph 4, at the end it says:

11             "Protests were lodged throughout the day to the Serb authorities

12     on account of both the shelling and the deliberate contravention of the

13     agreement by the inspectors at Zvornik."

14             So this was the reality, Mr. Bilbija, the Serb side by

15     obstructing the process of evacuation while the UNPROFOR was trying to

16     enforce it.  Were you aware of that?

17             MR. IVETIC:  Objection, Your Honours.  It's a compound question,

18     mixing and matching facts from different incidents without clearly

19     differentiating between the two.  Again I ask:  Is it the Prosecutor's

20     position that this is the incident where the gentleman was involved in

21     the medevac because in the statement it says April of 1993, and now we've

22     dealt with two exhibits dealing with a different time-period which has

23     not been correctly established on the record.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, could you please clarify the issue as far

25     as the month is concerned, whether we are talking about various events,

Page 29056

 1     and could you please make a distinction between what happened in Zvornik

 2     and what happened in Srebrenica and not put them in one question.  You

 3     may proceed.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   Mr. Bilbija --

 6             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I'm a little bit unclear because this in

 7     my question is related to the whole process of evacuations leading up to

 8     the witness's involvement.  So that was my question --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But okay --

10             MR. ZEC:  -- whether he was aware of this.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you should be clear that whether the witness is

12     aware of what is described in this document as obstruction preceding the

13     evacuation in which he participated, if that's your question, then we

14     have clearly split the two events and the witness -- were you aware of

15     what is described in this document as of an obstructive nature preceding

16     the evacuation in which you participated?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Next question, please.

19             MR. ZEC:

20        Q.   So were you aware that this was happening shortly before you got

21     involved in this process?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the witness says he isn't aware of it, so

23     therefore whether it was briefly before or long before is not a question

24     which the witness could answer because he did not know that it happened.

25     Next question, please.

Page 29057

 1             MR. ZEC:  I will move on, but I will then tender the video and

 2     the document into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then could you take them one by one, first the

 4     video, Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Video 65 ter number 22852A receives number P6959,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please check the 65 ter number.  Is it

 8     really 22852?

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  22852A.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

12             Now the document which is on our screen, Madam Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 9358 receives number P6960,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

16             Mr. Zec, is it the Prosecution's position that the video we

17     looked at was depicting the evacuation in which this witness

18     participated, that is, in April, or that it is depicting what happened in

19     the month of March?

20             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Your Honour.  So this is before his

21     involvement.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. ZEC:  This is happening in March 1993.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then of course the relevance of questions "is this

25     what you saw," then it was not entirely clear, as a matter of fact.  The

Page 29058

 1     witness said this was not what he saw, but it should have been made clear

 2     to him whether this was similar to what he saw because it's your position

 3     that it's not the moment that the witness was in Srebrenica and you

 4     should have clearly identified that in your questions.  But it's clear

 5     now so let's move on.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   In paragraph 17 you say that General Mladic ordered you to go to

 8     Srebrenica and to do the task given to you to the best of your abilities.

 9     And you also say in paragraph 18 that you promised to send a book to a

10     doctor in Srebrenica through ICRC.  So shortly after this and your visit

11     to Srebrenica, General Mladic ordered to ban access to Srebrenica to all

12     international organisations.  Were you aware of it?

13             MR. IVETIC:  Can we have a basis for this question in time and

14     fact instead of just a generic question.  There's a lot of time-period

15     between after this witness left Srebrenica.  I'd like to know the basis

16     of this question.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Ivetic, if there would have been a clear

18     time-frame in paragraph 18 of the statement, then it would have made

19     sense.  But since there is not, the question is phrased in a rather

20     general way and we can further -- oh, no, I'm sorry, 17 [overlapping

21     speakers] --

22             MR. IVETIC:  Paragraph 17 does say April of 1993, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it's right, and in the beginning of 18 it says

24     during one of the pauses between the flights.  Now let me just -- you're

25     perfectly right, Mr. Ivetic.  Apologies for that.

Page 29059

 1             Yes, are you aware at all of General Mladic ordering to ban

 2     access to Srebrenica to all international organisations after the

 3     evacuation?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I am not aware of any such

 5     order.  Are we going to talk about the book now and international

 6     organisations?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  We are talking about what Mr. Zec puts to you

 8     as questions.

 9             Mr. Zec, if you would have any specifics which might refresh the

10     memory of the witness, then of course you have an opportunity to raise

11     that.  Please proceed.

12             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

13             Can we have 65 ter 31679.  And this is a document issued by the

14     intelligence and security department of the Drina Corps in May 1993.

15        Q.   It was sent to all Drina Corps units and it says:

16             "Pursuant to the oral order of Lieutenant-General Ratko Mladic,

17     commander of the VRS Main Staff, all convoys of UNPROFOR, the ICRC, and

18     other international organisations are hereby banned from entering or

19     leaving the territory of Srebrenica and Zepa."

20             So the reality is, Mr. Bilbija, General Mladic banned access to

21     Srebrenica about a month after your visit there; right?

22        A.   This is the first time I hear of this, what you've been saying,

23     and I don't know how I could know about that in the first place.  Why

24     would I know?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, whether you should or whether you could is

Page 29060

 1     a different matter.  We are primarily interested in whether you knew; the

 2     answer is clearly no.

 3             Next question, please.

 4             MR. ZEC:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31679 receives number P6961,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. ZEC:

10        Q.   You told us in your statement about your contacts with

11     General Mladic, starting from the time when you were in Croatia.  And we

12     saw some of it in the notebook that I showed to you earlier.  Did you

13     ever write to General Mladic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Did you ever send him a letter and books?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 02308.

18        Q.   And I'm going to show you a letter that was found in 2008 in

19     premises belonging to General Mladic.  The letter was found in an

20     envelope which you can see on the screen.

21             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page in B/C/S.

22        Q.   So this is the other side of the envelope.

23             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page in both languages.

24        Q.   So this is the letter and you -- if you look over, you will see

25     that it refers to two books about bees that were sent through

Page 29061

 1     Stojan Maricic.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page in the B/C/S.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Malcic, Malcic, Stojan Malcic.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And you see at the end it says:  "Yours, Simo."

 6             So I take it you recognise this letter, yes?

 7        A.   Of course, yes.

 8        Q.   And this is the letter that you sent to General Mladic, talking

 9     about the books that you sent to him; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  Can we see the beginning of the letter, so in B/C/S we

12     need page before.

13        Q.   At the beginning of the letter you say:

14             "Dear boss:

15             "Our last meeting left a strong impression on me, I guess because

16     we spent a lot of time alone together, undisturbed by these difficulties.

17     I am happy to realise that your spirit has remained strong despite all

18     the troubles ..."

19             Mr. Bilbija, the troubles you were referring to were the

20     indictment by this Tribunal and the arrest warrant for General Mladic;

21     right?

22        A.   The letter is dated the 2nd of September, 1996.  It is correct, I

23     did write it.  Now I have to go back to this time when I wrote it to

24     know -- but I don't think that - how do I put this? - yes, what did I

25     write?  "Trouble"?  No, I don't think that I thought of The Hague

Page 29062

 1     Tribunal when I was referring to this trouble.  When did that start, when

 2     was the indictment established?  I don't know.

 3        Q.   This Tribunal has indicted General Mladic and requested his

 4     arrest in 1995.  On 11 July 1996, following the failure to surrender the

 5     accused by the authorities of Serbia and Republika Srpska, the

 6     Trial Chamber issued an international arrest warrant, sent to all states

 7     and to the NATO forces in Bosnia, the IFOR.  So that's the background of

 8     the indictment and the arrest warrant.  So it's clear that what you said

 9     in this letter in September 1996, you were referring to the indictment

10     and the arrest warrant; correct?

11             MR. IVETIC:  I object to the form of the question.  It's not at

12     all clear.  Counsel is presenting his version of events.  The witness is

13     entitled to testify as to what his recollections are of this letter.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now that's what we call a leading question and

15     that's allowed in cross-examination.

16             Could you tell us whether, as it was put to you by Mr. Zec,

17     whether it was the arrest warrant that was on your mind when referring to

18     "difficulties"?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe just in part.  I believe that

20     what I meant by that was all the trouble that had befallen our people,

21     him included.  Would that do?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But if you say "in part," it means that that was

23     included as well but not exclusively the difficulties and you described

24     what other difficulties you refer to.  Is that well understood?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that you interpreted this

Page 29063

 1     properly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 3             Next question, please, Mr. Zec.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   Towards the end of the letter - in B/C/S it's towards the end of

 6     this page - you say:

 7             "It is difficult to put everything into one short letter ... my

 8     family, friends, and everyone who would like ... to know how much they

 9     love and support you.  I would also like to take this opportunity to send

10     my greetings to the high-ranking ..."

11             In B/C/S we should go to the next page.

12             "... high-ranking Serbian officers in the Main Staff and convey

13     to them my best wishes."

14             And again, this is your support to a man indicted by this

15     Tribunal; yes?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   As you sit today in that witness box, do you still share the same

18     feelings of love and support towards General Mladic?

19        A.   That is why I'm sitting here.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. ZEC:  I tender this document.  And I don't have any further

22     questions.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 2308 receives number P6962,

25     Your Honours.

Page 29064

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, you're on your feet.  Is it still about

 2     the exhibit?  No, no, then the exhibit is admitted into evidence.

 3             Mr. Ivetic, any further questions?

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, just briefly.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Ivetic:

 6        Q.   Sir, I'd like to focus now on the medevac evacuation that you

 7     participated in April of 1993 from Srebrenica.  Mr. Zec asked about

 8     conditions in Srebrenica.  Now, when you arrived, what kind of condition

 9     of the people did you expect going there and what kind of condition did

10     you find there in terms of their nourishment?

11        A.   It seems to me that in the testimony up until now this has been

12     dealt with fully, how I saw all of this in Srebrenica.  My general

13     impression was that it wasn't as terrible as it had been portrayed.  As

14     for this question regarding food, I am not in a position to answer

15     because I did not really deal with that -- actually, in addition to the

16     medical work, I asked my colleague about whether they received food

17     supplies and so on, and he said they did.  If you perhaps mean whether I

18     saw people who were very thin, very skinny, no.  They looked like others

19     on all sides in this war.  But this is just superficial, a superficial

20     assessment on my part.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I understand that.  Earlier today at temporary

22     transcript page 18, lines 2 through 4, in talking about the medical

23     centre in Srebrenica you said:

24             "His medical centre, objectively speaking, and as far as my

25     impression goes, it just looked like any medical centre on the other

Page 29065

 1     side, on my side.  It was nothing special."

 2             Could you please describe for us what other medical centres you

 3     were comparing when comparing the one in Srebrenica?

 4        A.   When I said what you just said I said, I meant the health

 5     centres, the medical centres in similar small towns all over Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina that I had the opportunity to go into up until that point.

 7     In war conditions, all of them were not well supplied and the hygienic

 8     conditions were difficult, but it did seem to work somehow.

 9             What I wanted to say was that when we entered the medical centre

10     in Srebrenica, my colleague took me around, he showed me things.  The

11     patients' rooms had a number of empty beds and the reason for that was

12     that those people who were lying in that bed at that point were at the

13     football-pitch waiting to be boarded on to the helicopters.  And all he

14     said to me was that:  Well, I wish you knew how crowded it could get here

15     sometimes, which I knew, I knew what the situation was from other places

16     when the wounded and the injured were being brought in in the middle of

17     war.  Is this sufficient?

18        Q.   Almost.  Just one more clarification, sir.  You said compared to

19     other places that you had been, medical centres in similar small towns

20     all over Bosnia.  On whose territory were those medical centres located

21     during the war that you're talking about, that you're comparing with

22     Srebrenica?

23        A.   These were the hospital where I worked in Sokolac, the medical

24     centre in Sokolac, the hospital in Pale, the hospital in Zica, in

25     Kasindol, in Han Pijesak, in Srebrenica, I'm sorry -- Srebrenica,

Page 29066

 1     actually, I meant to say in Bratunac.  I mean, it's clear that we are

 2     talking about Srebrenica already.  The hospital in Bratunac, in Zvornik,

 3     the hospital in Bijeljina, the hospital in Brcko, Prijedor.  And there

 4     were also a number of field hospitals too, but I assume that that is not

 5     part of your question.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I think you've clarified sufficiently for us to get

 7     an idea of the comparison you're making.  Now during your

 8     cross-examination --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Can I --

10             MR. IVETIC:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- take it that the parties agree that all the

12     locations mentioned were Serb-controlled territory apart from Srebrenica.

13             MR. IVETIC:  I definitely can stipulate that.  I don't know about

14     the Prosecution.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec?

16             I mean, the comparison is with what the witness found in

17     Serb-controlled hospitals.

18             MR. IVETIC:  That's my understanding, yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you, Witness, could --

20             THE WITNESS:  "Da."

21             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness has confirmed it so there's no need for

22     stipulation further.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. IVETIC:

25        Q.   Now, sir, during your cross-examination you mentioned -- or

Page 29067

 1     actually, you were asked about the lack of medical supplies in Srebrenica

 2     and you mentioned that you had been told about medical supplies being

 3     dropped from the air in Srebrenica.  Did the doctor from Srebrenica tell

 4     you of any problems relating to those medical supplies dropped from the

 5     air which complicated the ability of their use for medical treatment?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Ivetic, could you give us a page and line

 7     reference.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  One moment.

 9             MR. ZEC:  I did not go into this topic in my cross as far as I

10     remember.

11             MR. IVETIC:  You did not ask about medical supplies in

12     Srebrenica?  Is that the Prosecution's position, that you did not ask

13     about the lack of medical supplies in Srebrenica hospital?

14             MR. ZEC:  I was thinking this was more focused on the way the

15     air-drops, but I will leave it --

16             MR. IVETIC:  It goes directly towards an element that arose out

17     of their cross-examination --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. --

19             MR. IVETIC:  -- the availability of supplies to the hospital in

20     Srebrenica, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- there are two elements -- as a matter of

22     fact, there are three elements:  Supplies, medical supplies, and the way

23     in which they were transported to their destination.  These are the three

24     elements.  Because I wanted to verify exactly what the witness has said,

25     I asked you primarily, Mr. Ivetic, for a reference, and in view of the

Page 29068

 1     objection by Mr. Zec I would like --

 2             MR. IVETIC:  Page 18 --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  One second --

 4             MR. IVETIC:  Page 18 --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, 18 --

 6             MR. IVETIC:  -- lines 5 through 8, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  18, 5 to 8.  And then in respect of the

 8     cross-examination you referred to is --

 9             MR. IVETIC:  Beginning at temporary transcript 17, line 24, the

10     witness is responding to Mr. Zec's question about lack of military

11     supplies -- lack of medical supplies and what the doctor told him in

12     Srebrenica.  And now I'm going back to that to find out more information.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.  One second.

14             Yes, that's 18.  Then we have -- one second, please.

15             Yes, you say starting at -- yes, at 24.  There is about --

16     cross-examination dealt with medical supplies and being provided with

17     things from Doctors Without Borders, and that there was some supplies

18     from humanitarian air-drops.  So both the type of support, being medical,

19     and the transportation through air-drops was dealt with.  Therefore, the

20     objection by Mr. Zec is denied.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. IVETIC:

23        Q.   Doctor, did the doctor from Srebrenica tell you of any

24     difficulties encountered with the humanitarian supplies from air-drops

25     which complicated their use at the medical facility?

Page 29069

 1        A.   Yes, the doctor told me -- well, we discussed a number of things

 2     but as far as air-drops are concerned, the doctor said that sometimes it

 3     would happen that the packages with medical supplies would unfortunately

 4     be opened by the population who were waiting for the packages.  And the

 5     contents would be unpacked and that would destroy the sterile conditions

 6     of the material.  And even though the day was difficult and tense and

 7     complicated, we did spend a long time together so we kind of even joked a

 8     little bit in that situation.  I asked him:  Why would they open sterile

 9     medical supplies?  And the young colleague said:  Well, you know, our

10     people, they believed that in the packets that were marked with the red

11     cross signs there were coffee and tobacco for the doctors.  So the

12     equipment, the material, was not destroyed completely.

13             In a way he was describing anecdotes and he was showing me the

14     supplies that he had that he was using.  In spite of his quite moderate

15     surgical experience, he came to Srebrenica after a short time which he

16     spent specialising in pathology at the faculty of medicine in Sarajevo.

17     So because of the circumstances, he was forced to provide surgical

18     treatment, and in view of the situation, I believe that he did a very

19     good job.  I promised him a book then on war-time surgery, which I sent

20     him later and so on.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now I'd like to focus on the time-period that

22     Mr. Zec was asking about, March of 1993, and I'd like to ask you, sir:

23     Do you know if at that time, March of 1993, Srebrenica had been declared

24     a safe area and been demilitarised or not, if you know?

25        A.   We did know at the time that this was something that was ongoing

Page 29070

 1     and that Srebrenica was declared a demilitarised safe area, yes.

 2             MR. IVETIC:  And can the -- is the Prosecution willing to

 3     stipulate that that occurred in April of 1993, the 19th of April,

 4     pursuant to UN Security Council Resolution number 824 -- pardon me, 819?

 5     And we can get back to that.

 6        Q.   Now, sir, I have one other area to ask about, that's the letter

 7     that was shown to you which you authored in September of 1996.

 8             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Are you not waiting for an answer from the

 9     Prosecution?

10             MR. IVETIC:  I don't think they can respond right away.  I would

11     like to give them time to research, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, at the same time we are close to the end of the

13     testimony of this witness --

14             MR. IVETIC:  Agreed.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so therefore I think -- but I hardly could

16     imagine that if there's a Security Council Resolution which deals with

17     the matter, that there would be any dispute about it.  So let's --

18     Mr. Zec.

19             MR. ZEC:  I refer to paragraph 72 of the indictment, which --

20     this has been dealt with.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Okay.  So there's a stipulation.  There's no

22     dispute about that.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. IVETIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, sir, in relation to the letter and the time-period and the

Page 29071

 1     troubles that General Mladic was undergoing, do you recall when it was

 2     that General Mladic was removed from his position by the Republika Srpska

 3     president in relation to your letter?

 4        A.   I don't recall that, no.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Fair enough.  Doctor, again, I thank you on behalf of my

 6     client, General Mladic, and the rest of the team for answering my

 7     questions.

 8             MR. IVETIC:  Your Honours, that completes the re-direct

 9     examination.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Ivetic.

11             Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Zec, I have one -- I'm

12     puzzled by your observations about the sterility of the material that

13     arrived, where the packages were opened by the local population because

14     they thought there would be coffee in it.  Do you remember your testimony

15     in this respect?  I'm just seeking to --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.  Your Honour, this

17     was not my observation.  It was the observation of the local doctor.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  You're right in correcting me.  Now, I tried to

19     understand how that works.  If I open a package in which there is sterile

20     material such as syringes, I take it, or whatever other surgical

21     equipment, I have little knowledge about medical matters but usually

22     they're packed in plastic, they are sealed so that you can see what the

23     content is, whether it's syringes, whether it's anything else.  So I

24     wondered how by opening a package, seeing that there is medical equipment

25     in there as I described, syringes, scalpels - how do you call them? - the

Page 29072

 1     lancets, for example, how would you then continue and further open that

 2     in the expectation that there would be coffee in it?  I try to understand

 3     what happened.  Do you have -- did he explain to you how the sterility

 4     was lost despite the fact that, as far as I know, it's usually

 5     discernible that it's medical equipment rather than coffee in those

 6     sealed elements.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already said that this topic that

 8     we're talking about was something that made all of us laugh, me, him,

 9     everybody who was around us.  It was my impression that that was the

10     reason why he told it, because by that time we had already developed a

11     very positive atmosphere in our mutual contact.  He didn't say that

12     everything that had been in the air-drop was unpacked and destroyed, he

13     didn't say that.  He just said that some things were opened quickly by

14     those people, unpacked, and then it wouldn't be usable anymore.

15             On the other hand, if we remember the video from earlier, you

16     remember that they showed some moments where surgery was being carried

17     out, we could see a little bit of that.  The reporter who was speaking in

18     the footage said that you could -- that the footage does not convey the

19     stench of dirty sheets, wounds getting infected and so on.  When you try

20     to imagine that whole atmosphere, then the fact that two or three

21     scalpels or a pack of sterile garments were unpacked is not that serious.

22     Some things that we use that are unpacked -- once they're unpacked

23     because they're no longer sterile, they cannot be used anymore according

24     to our rules.  However, in the situation which prevailed there, sometimes

25     you had to work with things that were not 100 per cent sure, if you

Page 29073

 1     understand me.  I hope that you understand me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I do understand you.

 3             One more question.  We -- quite a lot of attention was paid to

 4     the March operation for evacuation.  Now, we do understand you were not

 5     involved in that.  Were you aware of that taking place and were you aware

 6     of which of your colleagues was involved in that evacuation?  Because

 7     what we saw on our screens seemed, at least gave the impression, that

 8     patients were transported to the helicopters and -- are you -- do you

 9     know anything about this earlier attempt to evacuate which then

10     apparently faced some trouble?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the earlier

12     attempt at evacuation, so I'm surprised all the more because I was at the

13     Main Staff hospital from where doctors would most probably have been

14     recruited, doctors like myself.  I didn't hear about that at all.  I

15     didn't hear about anything that we saw in the footage.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that answers my question.

17             Mr. Zec, any further questions?

18             MR. ZEC:  No, Mr. President, only to put on the record that the

19     Security Council Resolution that Mr. Ivetic was referring to is

20     Exhibit P22 in this case and also would like to put on the record that an

21     agreement to demilitarise Srebrenica is P5 in this case.  In paragraph 3

22     you will see there it's a discussion that two doctors from each side be

23     involved in evacuations.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That gives the documentary background of the events

25     we heard about.

Page 29074

 1             Mr. Bilbija, this concludes your evidence.  I would like to thank

 2     you very much for coming to The Hague --

 3             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and for having the patience to stay over the

 5     weekend and conclude your testimony today.  I wish you -- yes, for coming

 6     to The Hague I would like to thank you but also for having answered all

 7     the questions that were put to you, that were put to you by the parties,

 8     that were put to you by the Bench, and I wish you a safe return home

 9     again.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You may follow the usher.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would be best to take the break now,

14     although it's a little bit less than one hour, but to take the break and

15     resume at quarter past 12.00.  As usual, Mr. Mladic, being removed from

16     the courtroom, is welcome again after the break.

17             Mr. Ivetic or Mr. Lukic, it was confirmed to the Chamber that

18     Mr. Mladic had an opportunity to follow the proceedings in the cell where

19     he was through a video link.

20             We take the break and resume at quarter past 12.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 11.53 a.m.

22                           [The accused entered court]

23                           --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that there was a

25     preliminary matter to be raised by the Prosecution.  Does it take a lot

Page 29075

 1     of time?

 2             MS. BIBLES:  No, Your Honour, and we could probably do it while

 3     the witness is being escorted in.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I was just thinking about.  Yes,

 5     please.

 6             MS. BIBLES:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Your Honour, during the

 7     testimony of Witness Corokalo on the -- specifically on the 18th of

 8     November, the witness was shown an article from "Vreme," V-r-e-m-e,

 9     "International."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MS. BIBLES:  That was P6925 MFI'd.  The Defence asked the

12     Prosecution to stipulate that "Vreme" is published and distributed in

13     Serbia.  The Prosecution makes that stipulation.  The Prosecution further

14     notes that the article in question originated from "Vreme International."

15     The Prosecution and Defence agree that Vreme --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please slow down.

17             MS. BIBLES:  I'm trying to rush too much.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We are now at "Vreme International."  Yes?

19             MS. BIBLES:  That "Vreme International" is published in Austria

20     and circulated internationally.  Thank you.

21             MR. IVETIC:  And I agree, that was the discussion I had with

22     counsel from the Prosecution earlier this morning.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then this stipulation is hereby on the record.

24             We'll wait for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.

25             Mr. Stojanovic, I see the lectern is close to you, so you'll

Page 29076

 1     examine the witness.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

 3     Thank you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that you want to take the witness

 5     immediately to his statement.  Perhaps you could already give the number

 6     so that everyone is prepared.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] The number is 1D01677.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

10             Mr. Cvijic, good afternoon.  Before you give evidence, the Rules

11     require that you make a solemn declaration.  The text is handed out to

12     you now.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  ZARKO CVIJIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Cvijic.

18     Mr. Cvijic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Stojanovic.  You'll find

19     Mr. Stojanovic to your left.  Mr. Stojanovic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you please repeat the

21     65 ter number.

22             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  1D01677.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you so much.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 29077

 1                           Examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, good day.  Could you please, as slowly

 3     as possible, tell us your correct first and last name.

 4        A.   My name is Zarko Cvijic.

 5        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, at any point did you give a statement, a written

 6     statement, to General Mladic's Defence?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please

 9     have document that we referred to earlier, the 65 ter document 1D01677,

10     in e-court, please.

11        Q.   Witness, could you please look at the screen in front of you,

12     where you will see the text and can you please tell us if the signature

13     on this page is your signature?

14        A.   Yes, it is my signature.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the last page

17     of this document, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, these two signatures that we see on the page and also

19     the date that you can see on this page, are they written in your hand?

20        A.   Yes, these are my signatures as well as the date, the

21     13th of June, 2014.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Today after you have given the solemn declaration

23     that you will speak the truth here in this courtroom today, would you

24     stand by your written statement and do you say that it is correct,

25     truthful, and given according to your best recollection?

Page 29078

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

 4     tender the witness's statement into evidence, the Witness Cvijic Zarko,

 5     his statement which has the 65 ter number 1D01677.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the witness understood your questions

 7     to be that the statement as written down reflects what he said, that it's

 8     truthful, and that he would give the same answers if -- in substance if

 9     questioned again.

10             Is that what you confirm, Witness?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?

13             THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1677 receives number D833,

16     Your Honours.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I assume that there are no objections.  Admitted

18     into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with your leave I

21     would like to read the summary of the statement of Witness Cvijic.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you explained to the witness the purpose of

23     reading it, Mr. Stojanovic?

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

Page 29079

 1             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Witness Zarko Cvijic, in

 2     July 1992, when he was 18 years old, went to do his regular military

 3     service, and after having been trained as a military policeman he was

 4     sent to the 65th Protection Regiment of the Main Staff of the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska, where it was decided that he would be one of the

 6     escorts and members of the personal security detail of the commander of

 7     the Main Staff of the VRS, General Mladic.

 8             He spent a bit over a year carrying out these duties.  In his

 9     statement he speaks about his personal observations and impressions about

10     the nature and personality of General Mladic during the period while he

11     was close to him and around him almost every day.

12             He refers to a particular situation showing the attitude of

13     General Mladic towards the non-Serb population; namely, he encountered a

14     convoy of civilians who were moving from Srebrenica towards Tuzla

15     escorted by blue helmets.  Having noticed in the convoy a military-aged

16     able-bodied man who was extremely frightened, he addressed him with a few

17     ordinary questions, telling him not to be afraid and to continue his

18     journey freely.  He also showed his care and concern towards his

19     subordinates in his personal attitude towards the witness too, asking

20     that he should not be reassigned, which is what the witness wanted;

21     rather, he kept him in his -- on his own security detail and soon

22     afterwards sent him to train as an officer in Banja Luka.

23             After completing his education, the witness assumed the rank of a

24     second lieutenant and took over the duty of commander of a platoon of

25     military police all the way up until the 13th of September, 1994, when he

Page 29080

 1     was wounded in both legs at the Nisici plateau.

 2             His assessment of General Mladic is that General Mladic is an

 3     honest man, an officer who never drew any advantage out of the war, and

 4     he also speaks of him as a very gentle man with a very stern exterior

 5     only.

 6             Your Honours, that would be the statement, and with your leave I

 7     would like to put a few questions to the witness.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Proceed as you suggest, Mr. Stojanovic.

 9             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, during your proofing before you appeared before this

11     Court, I've asked you and now I'm asking you once again to tell us more

12     about your service.  I will deal with this through questions.  To the

13     best of your recollection, when did you arrive in the 65th Regiment and

14     until when were you part of General Mladic's security detail?

15        A.   I arrived in the 65th Regiment sometime in 1992.  That was the

16     month of August 1992.  After two months in the regiment, I was selected

17     to provide security for General Mladic and I spent about a year on his

18     security detail, that is to say, until the 1st of September, 1993.

19        Q.   Thank you.  From the 1st of September, 1993, you were sent out

20     for continuing your education, so could you please tell the Court --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, nothing in the first question or in

22     its answer is not yet in the statement.  So would you please put

23     additional questions rather than to ask the same as we find already in

24     the statement.  Please proceed.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  Then allow me

Page 29081

 1     just to draw the witness's attention to a paragraph for which I am

 2     actually asking this.

 3        Q.   Could you focus on paragraph 6 of your statement, D833 is its

 4     number now.  Witness, in that paragraph of your statement you say that

 5     you served as General Mladic's security detail for a little over a year

 6     and my question is:  Can you give us the date when you went out for your

 7     further education?  And it was my understanding that that was the

 8     1st of September, 1993.  Thank you.

 9             Then yet again I'm going to indicate paragraph 14 of your

10     statement.

11             Please let us take a look at paragraph 14 of your statement.  And

12     you say there that you stayed for ten months in officers' training

13     school, and then I'm asking you when you returned after your education to

14     the 65th Regiment.

15        A.   I completed the military school on the 30th of June, 1993.

16     That's the exact date.  And then I was returned to serve in the

17     protection regiment again.

18        Q.   Could you please repeat once again the date, the 30th of June

19     which year?

20        A.   1993.

21        Q.   And you said that you were sent out to school on the

22     1st of September?

23        A.   1992.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  I'm lost, Mr. Stojanovic.  I thought the witness

Page 29082

 1     had served for a little over a year with General Mladic, from August 1992

 2     to September 1993.  Now he says he went to school again, leaving the

 3     service in June 1993, which is the time when he's supposed to be still

 4     with Mr. Mladic.

 5             Are you able to explain that, sir?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the date when I

 7     became part of General Mladic's security detail.  I don't remember the

 8     date in terms of the beginning.  I do know that I stayed there until

 9     September 1993, roughly.  I don't remember these dates.  From

10     September 1992 until the 30th of June, 1993, I trained at the military

11     school in Banja Luka.

12             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you to focus, please, on the time

14     and tell us once again.  You say in September 1992 you came to the

15     65th Protection Regiment, at the end of August/beginning of September?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You say that you went to school in September 1993?

18        A.   That's right.

19        Q.   How long did this education last, this training?

20        A.   Ten months.

21        Q.   So when did you return then, what year was it?

22        A.   The 30th of June, 1994.

23        Q.   Thank you.  That's what we wanted to clarify.  And I'm not going

24     to ask you about these dates any longer.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, by the way, I stand corrected, the

Page 29083

 1     beginning of the time was clear from the statement; however, the last

 2     moment or the -- when he left his duty as General Mladic's security

 3     was -- was not clear in the statement.  So I stand corrected from my

 4     previous observation.  Please proceed, and I think everything has been

 5     clarified by now as far as dates are concerned.  So please put your next

 6     question to the witness.

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now I'd just like to ask you briefly about paragraph 10 of your

 9     statement.  There's a reference to this convoy for transporting

10     civilians.  Could you tell the Chamber, to best of your recollection,

11     where did this actually happen in physical terms?

12        A.   In physical terms it was the area between Bratunac and Milici and

13     then further on towards Sekovici at the crossroads to Zvornik.

14        Q.   Do you perhaps know what the name of the place is, this

15     crossroads or a settlement if there is one there?

16        A.   I think it's Konjevic Polje.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to draw your attention to paragraph 13

18     of your statement.  I would like to ask you to tell us how you

19     experienced these reasons why General Mladic practically stopped the

20     order of the commander of the 65th Regiment, Mr. Savcic, that is to say,

21     stopped your transfer to Krajina, your reassignment?

22        A.   Well, as that was happening straight away and when I was told

23     that I should stay where I was, it wasn't very clear to me.  But after a

24     while General Mladic asked me to come to his office and he explained to

25     me why it was that he did that.  Primarily for my sake because I was

Page 29084

 1     young then and because of my personal safety.  He said I was safer there

 2     than in any other unit.

 3        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, thank you for these answers.  At this point in time

 4     we have no further questions for you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

 6             Ms. Edgerton, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the

 7     witness?

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cvijic, you'll now be cross-examined by

10     Ms. Edgerton.  You'll find her to your right.  Ms. Edgerton is counsel

11     for the Prosecution.

12             Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Cvijic.  Can you understand me?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Just before we get in depth into the

19     cross-examination, I just wanted to point out to my colleagues, it

20     appears to be an error in the translation of paragraph 10 of the

21     witness's statement that I noticed when I heard my colleague

22     Mr. Stojanovic refer to the man mentioned in paragraph 10 as a

23     military-aged man.  Those words are missing from the English translation

24     but they appear in the B/C/S.  You may want to take care of that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think then we need a corrected version of the

Page 29085

 1     translation to be uploaded if it's missing in the English because we

 2     might consult it later.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, I also want to ask you about the things you spoke

 5     about in paragraph 10 and paragraph 11 of your statement.  And maybe it

 6     would be an idea while we do that for you to have that on the computer

 7     screen in front of you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, we have it.  Good.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   So you said when you were there with General Mladic and you saw

10     this convoy, you were in Serb-held territory probably around

11     Konjevic Polje; right?

12        A.   That's right.

13        Q.   And that's the area of responsibility or that was the area of

14     responsibility at the time of the Drina Corps; right?

15        A.   I think the answer is yes.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, this convoy that you talked about that you said

17     in your statement was brimming with civilian passengers, I want to ask

18     you about that word.  When you use that word "brimming," you mean that

19     the convoy vehicles were packed to the point of overflowing, don't you?

20        A.   Yes, that's right.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Madam Edgerton, the paragraph 11 that I have

22     doesn't talk of civilian passengers, it just talks of passengers.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Ah, I -- indeed, at paragraph 10, first sentence,

24     refers to the convoy being organised to transport civilians --

25             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

Page 29086

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  -- from Srebrenica and Zepa.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Now, these civilians in the convoy, they were fleeing horrible

 5     conditions in Srebrenica at that time, weren't they?

 6        A.   Yes, I think so.

 7        Q.   Because the town of Srebrenica was just crammed with refugees at

 8     that time, wasn't it?

 9        A.   I think so.  I wasn't there.  I don't know.

10        Q.   Well, do you know that they had no real food and that's one of

11     the reasons why they were fleeing?

12        A.   Well, I think that was one of the reasons too why they were

13     moving out of Srebrenica.

14        Q.   And they were also moving out of Srebrenica because their

15     villages had been shelled by attacks from the VRS; right?

16        A.   Probably.  I don't know.

17        Q.   And in fact, Srebrenica had been shelled and was being shelled

18     and that's one of the reasons why they were fleeing; right?

19        A.   I don't know whether it was shelled or not.  I was a soldier in

20     military service.  I don't know what was going on there.

21        Q.   So are you saying that you don't know about the concerted

22     military advance by forces of your army against the area of Srebrenica at

23     that time?

24        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.

25        Q.   But it was, Mr. Cvijic, exactly this advance, this offensive,

Page 29087

 1     that created the refugee situation that you just agreed to; isn't that

 2     the case?

 3        A.   That is probably correct.  I told you where I happened to be at

 4     that point in time and what happened.  As for what the reason was for the

 5     withdrawal of those civilians, I don't know.

 6        Q.   Now, this convoy that you talked about, you would remember that

 7     there were no men on the trucks, other than an extremely small number,

 8     wouldn't you?

 9        A.   Yes, there were practically no men.

10        Q.   And Bosnian Serb army forces were checking every single one of

11     those trucks as they crossed through the area looking for men of military

12     age, weren't they?

13        A.   There was a check-point there.  They were doing spot-checks.  I

14     don't know if they were looking for somebody or I don't know what they

15     were doing, but in any case they were searching the buses and the trucks.

16        Q.   Well, in point of fact, they were looking for men of military --

17     men of fighting age, weren't they?  Because there weren't supposed to be

18     men of fighting age on any one of those trucks; isn't that the case?

19        A.   That is probably so, yes.

20        Q.   And in fact, the men of fighting age in Srebrenica were being

21     held back at the insistence of your Commander-in-Chief, General Mladic;

22     that's what was going on, wasn't it?

23        A.   No, nobody was being held back.

24        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, you just agreed that there weren't supposed to be men

25     of fighting age on any one of those trucks, and now you've just said

Page 29088

 1     nobody was being held back.

 2        A.   I told you nobody was being held back.  The soldiers at the

 3     check-points - I don't know how - noticed one man among the women in the

 4     bus.  And we happened to be there with General Mladic, I was there too.

 5     When we arrived, the convoy had already been stopped.  Two soldiers

 6     brought the man that they had noticed, they brought him to

 7     General Mladic.  I was standing nearby and I could hear every word.  The

 8     man was frightened.  He was saying that he wasn't the type for war, that

 9     he didn't carry weapons, and so on.  And then General Mladic told him

10     that he shouldn't be afraid, that he could go back to the bus from which

11     he was taken, and he could continue with his journey.  And that's exactly

12     what the man did.

13        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, on the 26th of March, 1993, General Mladic attended a

14     meeting with other military commanders.  He attended a meeting with

15     Wahlgren, he was with Morillon, and General Mladic struck a deal and the

16     deal was that a convoy was to leave Srebrenica, evacuating women,

17     children, and only some of the elderly.  And that's at P346, English

18     page 172 and B/C/S page 177.  And, in fact, Mr. Cvijic, your own army

19     recorded that there were only 48 men on that convoy.  I'll let you have a

20     look.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we see 65 ter number 09727.

22        Q.   And then I'll ask you a question.  This is a Drina Corps command

23     combat report to the VRS Main Staff on 29 March 1993.  Now, can you read

24     okay, Mr. Cvijic, because I want you to have a look at paragraph 4 in

25     both languages.  Now, that paragraph says:

Page 29089

 1             "Convoy of refugees, which left Srebrenica this morning, went to

 2     Tuzla via Bratunac, Zvornik, and Memici.  The convoy consisted of 19 big

 3     vehicles and two small vehicles, which transported 2.140 people, of which

 4     884 were women, 1.208 children, and 48 elderly men."

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, Mr. Mladic, no speaking aloud.  No

 6     speaking aloud.

 7             Your question, please, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, the men weren't allowed -- the men of military age

10     weren't allowed to go out of Srebrenica because they were intended to be

11     killed; isn't that the case?

12        A.   I don't know that.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 22229A.  22229A.  We have it.  Thank

17     you.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20     involving Drina Corps command officers, General Zivanovic and Colonel

21     Prstojevic, and one of them, the second one, they made the conclusion

22     based on the information they were hearing involved General Mladic.  Now,

23     have a look down at the second one, the second conversation on this list.

24     It says:

25             "... we learned the text of General Mladic's order that says:

Page 29090

 1     During the course of the day seize Potocari village (north of

 2     Srebrenica).  Bosnian Serb forces around Srebrenica are to initiate

 3     attacks in order to enter the town today or tomorrow.  Upon entering" the

 4     town "everyone who has weapons is to be killed.  Civilians and wounded

 5     are to be taken out of the town ..."

 6             It's crystal clear from what you see was being discussed on the

 7     eve of --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mladic, no speaking aloud again.  If you want to

 9     consult, please do it, but not audible for anyone in this courtroom.  And

10     then it's best to take off your earphones -- Mr. Mladic, if you take off

11     your earphones, then you better hear what counsel are telling you.

12     That's better.

13             No, no further comments.  No further comments.

14             Mr. Mladic, you are -- you continue to speak aloud when I ordered

15     you not to do so.  You knew this morning what happened before.

16             We turn into closed session for a second.

17                           [Closed session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29091

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, looking at that conversation that took place -- the

 8     summary of the conversation that took place at 9.30 in the morning on the

 9     16th of April, it's crystal clear that what was being discussed was

10     General Mladic's plan to enter the town and kill everybody who has a

11     weapon; right?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.  The quote is wrong.

14     I point to page 61, line 25 of today's draft transcript, where the

15     Prosecutor says, paraphrasing the alleged intercept, about the killing of

16     militarily able-bodied men.  In the original B/C/S text, it does not say

17     that.  With your leave, I would like to read what it says in the B/C/S

18     version, which is completely contrary from what is quoted by the

19     Prosecutor.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, if I read the document on the screen,

21     it talks -- certainly in the second one but perhaps the first one as

22     well, it is about men with weapons that are to be killed.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, that's not the same as men of military

25     age.

Page 29092

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, no.  With respect, of course, Your Honour,

 2     it's not the same.  I was simply asking the question at pages 61,

 3     lines 25, to 62, line 2, and it was later when I called up the document,

 4     I then asked a further question about -- relating to the text of the

 5     document.  And you see that at page 63, lines -- although I'm listed as

 6     Mr. Elderkin, which is why I didn't see myself, page 63, lines 21 to

 7     page 64.  And there I did, with respect, correctly paraphrase the

 8     document.  The first point that my friend --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  -- has risen on is, in my submission, simply not

11     an appropriate objection.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  When putting the content to the witness in -- on

13     page 63, Mr. Stojanovic, I think Ms. Edgerton quoted well that it was

14     about men with weapons.  If that is understood -- everyone, by the way,

15     with weapons.  If that is well understood, then do you still stick to

16     your objection?

17             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour,

18     but it would be fair to the witness because the question was fairly long,

19     it consisted of a number of elements which could possibly then lead the

20     witness to be confused.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Edgerton, I noticed that a couple of times

22     indeed your questions are composite or least introduction to a question

23     is composite.  Would you please try to take matters step by step.  Please

24     proceed.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Understood, Your Honour.  Perhaps I could

Page 29093

 1     abbreviate the question that I asked at page 63.

 2        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, do you see that this intercept discusses

 3     General Mladic's plan to enter Srebrenica and kill everybody who has a

 4     weapon?

 5        A.   That is what it says here, but I don't see that that was the

 6     objective.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

 8             Your Honours, I have nothing further.  I'd simply like to tender

 9     the last two exhibits that I omitted to tender, the first one being 9727.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 9727 receives number P6963,

12     Your Honours.

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no objection to this

14     document, and we stand by our earlier objection in relation to the

15     intercept and that's in line with our objections to these types of

16     documents.  (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29094











11  Page 29094 redacted.















Page 29095

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P6964 is marked for identification.

21             Ms. Edgerton, if there are any further submissions on the matter,

22     then I see that the first and the second intercept seems to be very

23     similar, and I wondered whether -- although where one is at 9.00 and the

24     other one is 9.30, to what extent there is overlap and to what extent

25     these really are two different intercepts.  Perhaps you could pay

Page 29096

 1     attention to that as well.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  In our further submissions, absolutely.  Thank

 3     you.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I've forgotten, and my colleagues remind me

 7     of that, that P6963 is admitted into evidence.

 8             Ms. Edgerton, no further questions?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  No.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?

11             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just a couple of questions.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Cvijic, during the year that you were in

14     General Mladic's detail, did you at any point in time happen to be in a

15     situation to see or to hear any order by General Mladic directed at

16     subordinates that would refer to the killing of soldiers or civilians of

17     the other side?

18        A.   No, we were not able to hear or see any document or report or

19     order.

20        Q.   Did you ever have the opportunity to hear the name or the last

21     name of any high-ranking officer -- actually, the name of

22     Lieutenant-Colonel Prstojevic?

23        A.   Yes, I did hear that officer's surname.

24        Q.   Mr. Cvijic, you were asked about the convoy that you talked

25     about.  While you were with General Mladic at that particular occasion,

Page 29097

 1     was it ever said or was anyone directed that somebody should be taken off

 2     or separated from that convoy?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   The check-point that you're talking about, was it manned by the

 5     army or the police?

 6        A.   I think that it was the military police of the Army of

 7     Republika Srpska.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to end with this question:  Was that the

 9     period when combat was going around -- going on around Srebrenica and the

10     surrounding area?

11        A.   I didn't understand you.

12        Q.   In that period, the spring of 1993, were you aware of fierce

13     fighting that was going on around Srebrenica, did you know about that?

14        A.   No, I'm not aware that any fighting was being conducted around

15     that area, any fighting.

16        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Cvijic.  The Defence of General Mladic

17     thanks you and we have no further questions for you.

18        A.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             Judge Moloto has one or more questions for you.

21                           Questioned by the Court:

22             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Sir, do you know why during the check-point of the

23     convoy that man was brought to Mr. Mladic by the soldiers?

24        A.   Well, perhaps during the check they noticed that this man was

25     youngish, perhaps he was, say, in his 40s, up to the age of 50.  The

Page 29098

 1     reason why he was brought in, I don't know.  That I don't know.

 2             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Do you know why he was scared when he was talking

 3     to Mr. Mladic?

 4        A.   Well, the very idea of General Mladic.  I don't know why he was

 5     frightened.  Most of our troops were frightened when General Mladic would

 6     arrive for an inspection.

 7             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Were you also frightened when Mr. Mladic came into

 8     your company?

 9        A.   Well, at first, during the first days of my service on the

10     security detail of General Mladic, I didn't feel very comfortable when he

11     was near me, when he would pass by me, when I stood there; however, as

12     time went by, I noticed that he was a completely different person.  I

13     think that General Mladic is a good, honourable, sincere man.

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  But in the first few days you were not scared, you

15     were just uncomfortable?

16        A.   Yes.

17             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And -- but this particular man who was being

18     brought out of the convoy was scared?

19        A.   That's what it looked like.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And General Mladic said to him he mustn't be

21     scared, he must go back into the bus?

22        A.   That's right.

23             JUDGE MOLOTO:  And you say you don't understand why he was called

24     to Mr. Mladic?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 29099

 1             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Edgerton, any further questions?  If not,

 3     Mr. Cvijic, this concludes your testimony.  I would like to thank you

 4     very much for coming to The Hague, a long way to The Hague, and for

 5     having answered all the questions that were put to you, put to you by the

 6     parties, put to you by the Bench, and wish you a safe return home again.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm briefly addressing you.  The events

11     of this morning, of course, are not what we expect to happen.  The next

12     witness, if I understand well, will be examined by Mr. Zec in

13     cross-examination.  We have decided that Mr. Mladic can be present during

14     the examination of that witness, but you'll understand in view of what

15     happened this morning that one word spoken aloud will result in exactly

16     the same as what happened this morning already twice.  And I would like

17     you to make that clear to Mr. Mladic.  Of course he always -- if he can't

18     control himself, he can waive his right to be present, but we do not

19     allow anything as happened this morning and that should be clear to him.

20     At the same time, we would accept that he is present during the

21     examination of the next witness.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Do you want me to respond or only to transfer your

23     message to Mr. Mladic?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that is the first thing.  Of course if you

25     want to make any submissions on what happened this morning at any moment,

Page 29100

 1     of course you're free to do so, but at this moment I'm not seeking a

 2     response.  At this moment I'm just informing you that the Chamber decided

 3     to allow Mr. Mladic to be present but under these very strict conditions.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, this morning Mr. Mladic only inquired,

 5     mentioning the name of my learned friend from the other side --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  -- whether he was from our area and he was asking

 8     Mr. Stojanovic --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- the personal -- that, first of all, is not

10     the point.  Second, any reference to a person who is functioning in a

11     role in this courtroom to be discussed aloud with counsel is

12     unacceptable, let that be perfectly clear.  Speaking aloud in itself is

13     not permitted by this Chamber, as you know and as Mr. Mladic knows, and

14     often we have not taken immediate action if it nevertheless happens.  But

15     if it is about one of the persons in a role functioning in this

16     courtroom, it certainly is inadmissible and that's the reason why we said

17     we would consider what to do.  And then Mr. Mladic continued to speak

18     aloud where it was clear that him that he should not do that and those

19     were the circumstances under which he was sent out the first time this

20     morning.  And I want you to make clear to Mr. Mladic that if he behaves

21     in the same way, that the same will happen again, but that nevertheless

22     we allow him to be present during the examination of the next witness.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  We take a break and we will resume at quarter to

Page 29101

 1     2.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 1.22 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.46 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Before the witness enters the courtroom, I do

 5     understand that the translation issue has been resolved which doesn't

 6     mean that -- of two documents which were associated exhibits where there

 7     were no translations but the translations are there, but I do understand

 8     that it was not the only reason why the Prosecution may object to

 9     admission.

10             MR. ZEC:  Correct, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So then the translation issue is dealt with and

12     whatever remains, we'll hear about that later.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  I'm afraid that our side didn't understand what you

17     were referring to.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that there were two associated exhibits

19     where no translations were uploaded which now are uploaded.

20             MR. LUKIC:  Which witness?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  With the next witness.

22             MR. LUKIC:  The next witness.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just check.  It is the -- there are

24     statements of March -- let me just have a look.  Yes, there were

25     statements of 2006 and there was a -- two statements of 2006, March and

Page 29102

 1     May, which were announced as associated exhibits where there were no

 2     translations earlier uploaded, but as I understand they are uploaded now.

 3     That was what I was referring to.

 4             MR. LUKIC:  I didn't know about the --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Another matter is --

 6             MR. LUKIC:  -- the objections at all, we were not aware, so that

 7     is why we did not understand.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that one of the

 9     members of Chambers staff was in touch with Defence last Friday regarding

10     the translations and noted that they both now are uploaded, so it was not

11     an objection by the Prosecution but it was noticed by the Chamber.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It was noticed by the Prosecution in the response

13     to your 92 ter motion.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I missed that, I made a mistake.  But at least it

15     was an issue and it has been resolved, at least that issue, not

16     everything yet.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just -- is there anything -- I would have

19     expected the witness to enter the courtroom already for a while.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Milojica.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you

24     make a solemn declaration.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I

25     invite you to make that solemn declaration.

Page 29103

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  RATKO MILOJICA

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Milojica.

 6             Mr. Milojica, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You find

 7     Mr. Lukic to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 8             And could the usher assist in having the earphones rightly on --

 9     if you put them on the top of your head, they don't fall off.  Yes.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Milojica.

14        A.   Good afternoon.

15        Q.   For the record, could you please slowly state your name and

16     surname.

17        A.   My name is Ratko Milojica.

18             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 1D4968 on

19     our screens.

20        Q.   Mr. Milojica, did you provide a statement to the members of the

21     Defence team of Mr. Karadzic?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the last page, please.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Milojica, on this document can you recognise

25     the signature?

Page 29104

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Whose signature is that before you?

 3        A.   My own.

 4        Q.   Have you checked whether this statement correctly reflects what

 5     you said to the members of Mr. Karadzic's Defence?

 6        A.   Yes, my statement.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 8     be asked to come closer to the microphone.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you please come closer to the

10     microphone so that the interpreters can hear you better.

11             Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

12             MR. LUKIC:  Just to check where I stopped.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether the witness has given -- whether it's -- the

14     statement correctly reflects what he said.  Yes.

15             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   What is contained in this statement, is it all correct and true,

17     Mr. Milojica?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   I will have to pause a bit between question and answer so that we

20     would make it possible for the interpreters to interpret what we're

21     saying into English and French.

22             If I were to put the same questions to you today, as the members

23     of the Karadzic Defence did and you provided answers to those questions,

24     would your answers be the same today?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 29105

 1             MR. LUKIC:  At this moment, Your Honours, we would offer this

 2     statement into evidence.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4968 receives number D834,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. LUKIC:  I will read the statement summary of this witness and

 9     I will not have questions for this witness.

10             Ratko Milojica was a member of the VRS and he has deployed -- he

11     was deployed in the 343 Prijedor Motorised Brigade.

12             On the 22nd of May, 1992, he was on leave and went to Prijedor

13     with his neighbour Rade Lukic and half-brother Radovan Milojica to return

14     to the army.  However, they were told that they were not required for two

15     more days and to return home.

16             The three men were picked up in a car driven by Milenko Lulic

17     with Sinisa Mijatovic and Nedjeljko Antunovic as passengers.  They

18     planned to travel to Ljubija via Hambarine.  Lulic and Mijatovic just

19     responded to a call-up.  Two out of six passengers had their weapons with

20     them.  Their military equipment was in the boot of the car.

21             At the check-point in Hambarine, Ratko Milojica noted that there

22     was an anti-tank hedgehog barriers, sandbags, which created a parapet on

23     which an M53 light machine-gun was placed with a civilian standing next

24     to it.  All the people at the check-point were armed.

25             The men in the car were asked for their identity papers and the

Page 29106

 1     boot of the car was searched.  The uniforms in the boot of the car were

 2     thrown on the ground, stamped upon; their military IDs and rifles were

 3     taken, and at this point, fire from the light machine-gun was opened upon

 4     them and the other people at the check-point joined in.  They fired for

 5     approximately five minutes.  Milenko Lulic attempted to run from the

 6     check-point but was shot as he did so.  The others remained in the car

 7     whilst being shot at but were then ordered to get out of the car.

 8     Following this, the men were mistreated, kicked, threatened at knife

 9     point and shot at.

10             At one point of time Mr. Milojica lost his consciousness.  He was

11     transported to Prijedor by the ambulance but has no recollection of that.

12     Later he found out that Radovan Milojica and Rade Lukic were killed at

13     that check-point and that other three men had survived but were all

14     seriously wounded in the attack.

15             To summarise, this was an attack on the civilian car at Hambarine

16     check-point in connection with Prijedor municipality.  That was a

17     statement summary, Your Honours, and I don't have questions.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

19             Mr. Zec, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

20             MR. ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Milojica, you'll now be cross-examined by

22     Mr. Zec.  You'll find him to your right.  Mr. Zec is counsel for the

23     Prosecution.

24             You may proceed.

25             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

Page 29107

 1                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Milojica.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4        Q.   On the night of 7 to 8 November 1992, the local Catholic priest

 5     of Donja Ravska near Prijedor, Ivan Grgic, was murdered; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Soldiers came to the priest's house, grabbed him, dragged him to

 8     Ljubija mine, shot him, and left his body there; correct?

 9        A.   It's not that soldiers came and grabbed him.

10        Q.   In fact, you were one of these soldiers; correct?

11        A.   Yes, I was in the vehicle.  I was going to the doctor's.

12     Ivica Pavlovic got him out and said that he was supposed to bring him to

13     the command.  That's what I said in my first statement, too, when I was

14     here.

15        Q.   And you blamed Ivica Pavlovic, a local Croat, for this murder;

16     correct?

17        A.   It's not that I blamed him.  He himself admitted that he had done

18     that.

19        Q.   Ivica Pavlovic died shortly after he confessed to the murder;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes, he allegedly committed suicide.

22        Q.   You were never tried for this murder; correct?

23        A.   Well, the lawyer explained to me that I gave this statement as a

24     suspect.

25        Q.   But you never were -- you were never tried?  There was never a

Page 29108

 1     trial for this murder; correct?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Are you now saying that you were tried for this murder?  Because

 4     that's not what you said last time when you were here.

 5             MR. LUKIC:  I would --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that there was a

 7     trial.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

 9             MR. LUKIC:  Page 80, line 13 to 15, there was a question and it

10     was answered:  "You were never tried?  There was never a trial for this

11     murder; correct?"  "No."  So I don't see the point of the next question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             Mr. Zec, I do understand that when you asked the witness whether

14     he was never tried, he said "no," which of course is always a bit of a

15     dubious -- "no, there was no trial"; or "no, I was tried."  So therefore,

16     Mr. Lukic, that creates always the confusion and should be verified such

17     an answer.  And just now --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And the "no" can also refer to "correct."

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Could you tell us, was there ever a trial -- were you ever tried

21     for this murder, yes or no?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, that makes the next question superfluous.

24             MR. ZEC:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 29109

 1             MR. ZEC:

 2        Q.   And you said that you were interviewed about this murder by the

 3     investigative judge of the Banja Luka military court.  That was in 1993;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I just wondered, following the

 7     questions - and I'm addressing you as well, Mr. Zec - whether a 90(E)

 8     warning would be appropriate?

 9             MR. ZEC:  And my apologies for that.  I should have said that at

10     the beginning, yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'll read to you Rule 90(E) of the Rules of

12     Procedure and Evidence, which is:

13             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

14     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

15     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

16     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

17     offence other than false testimony."

18             Which means that if a truthful answer would tend to incriminate

19     yourself, you may ask that you don't have to answer that question.  That

20     should be clear to you because you're talking about -- at least the

21     questions are about being involved in a murder.  That's the reason why I

22     bring this to your attention.

23             Mr. Zec, please proceed.

24             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Can we have 65 ter 31697 on the screen.  And this is a record of

Page 29110

 1     interview dated 21 October 1993.

 2             Can we focus at the lower part of the first page in B/C/S and in

 3     English it's 2 -- page 2.

 4        Q.   Mr. Milojica, you see your name and the last name.  Towards the

 5     bottom it says:

 6             "Ratko Milojica, Ratko, son of Mile and Milka Milojica."

 7             Do you see it?

 8        A.   I see that here, here on the left; right?

 9        Q.   And below that there's a signature.  That's your signature;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes, my signature.

12             MR. ZEC:  Can we now turn to page 3 in both languages.

13        Q.   And it says:

14             "Between 7 and October -- between 7 and 8 November 1992,

15     Boro Milojica, my cousin, Ranko Karan, aka Roca, and I were in my house

16     in the village of Tisova.  We were sitting and drinking a little and then

17     we agreed to go to the priest, Ivan Grgic, in Gornja Ravska.  We knew,

18     because it was publicly discussed, that the priest had been the main

19     supplier of weapons for the HDZ and that he had arranged for Croats to go

20     over to the Croatian army.  We wanted to intimidate him and make him tell

21     us where he was hiding the weapons and to whom he had given them.  It was

22     about 24 hours when we set off from my house in a ... car driven by

23     Boro Milojica.  On the way to Gornja Ravska we met Ivica Pavlovic who

24     joined us when we told him where we were going."

25             This is what we told the investigative judge.  Do you accept this

Page 29111

 1     part?

 2        A.   I do not accept that because I've already stated at that trial

 3     that this is not my statement.  It is my signature, but when they were

 4     asking me questions, they were typing something, writing something.  I

 5     didn't understand any of this.  We were all threatened.  We were

 6     threatened to be court-martialed, this and that, and it's obvious that I

 7     never even read this statement.

 8        Q.   I just read to you what is recorded.  Do you accept that this --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, what do you mean by "do you accept that"?

10     Because it could be that:  Do you accept that this is how it is recorded?

11     Or do you mean:  Do you accept that this is what you said?  The witness

12     has answered that question.  So the acceptance is an unclear -- results

13     in an unclear question.  Could you please rephrase it.

14             MR. ZEC:

15        Q.   So as you sit now in that chair, is this your memory as to what

16     happened that night?  Before you set to go to the priest's house?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Then tell us, what is your memory now?

19        A.   Well, I said that during the first trial here, that I had set out

20     to the doctor's and -- towards Ljubija and that Pavlovic Ivica is someone

21     we encountered on the way and he said that he had to bring in the priest,

22     that he received orders from the command telling him that he had to bring

23     him in.

24        Q.   I will now read you the second paragraph and tell me whether you

25     agree with the second portion.

Page 29112

 1             "Upon arrival in Donja Ravska we drove the car past" --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, it reads "Gornja Ravska," not "Donja."

 3             MR. ZEC:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 5             MR. ZEC:

 6        Q.   "Upon arrival in Gornja Ravska, we drove the car past the

 7     priest's house.  Boro, Ivica, and Roca went back to the priest's house,

 8     and I stayed by the car.  When I saw that the priest had opened the door,

 9     I joined them and we all entered the house.  We sat down with the priest

10     and asked him where the weapons were and where he had put them.

11     Boro Milojica asked the questions.  The priest Grgic kept saying he knew

12     nothing.  Then Ranko Karan searched the priest's house and found

13     300 Deutschemarks and 100 Swiss francs under the pillow ..."

14             So do you accept this portion, that this is what you told the

15     investigative judge in 1993?

16        A.   No, I do not accept that.

17        Q.   I will go on.

18             "After that we told the priest Grgic to come with us, saying that

19     we were taking him to Ljubija for questioning.  We wanted to frighten him

20     so that he would tell us who his collaborators were who supplied him with

21     weapons.  When we arrived at the Ljubija mine, we went to Kipe - a part

22     of the Ljubija mine - and took the priest out of the car.  Roca ordered

23     him to lie down, and when he did Roca asked him:  'Where are the

24     weapons?' and hit him twice.  Then the priest said:  'I don't know - I

25     will tell you' ..."

Page 29113

 1             Do you accept this part as to what happened when you got the

 2     priest at the Ljubija mine?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zec, the previous portion you asked the witness

 4     whether this is what he said.  Now -- and let's try to avoid whatever

 5     confusion, now you're asking whether this is what happened.  Did you --

 6     isn't the proper order to first ask the witness whether this is what he

 7     said or not and then perhaps follow-up with another question.

 8             MR. ZEC:

 9        Q.   So, Mr. Milojica, you heard Judge Orie's question.  So is this

10     you what you said to the investigative judge in 1993?

11        A.   No, I did not state that at all.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Zec, I'm looking at the clock.  I know that

13     we are in the middle of a quotation, but nevertheless, I think we should

14     adjourn for the day because otherwise we might go well beyond our

15     time-limits.

16             Witness, we'll adjourn for the day and we'd like to see you back

17     tomorrow morning at 9.30 in this same courtroom, but before you leave I

18     instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or communicate in

19     whatever way with whomever about your testimony, whether that is

20     testimony you've given today or whether that's testimony still to be

21     given tomorrow.  Is that clear to you?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then you may follow the usher and we would like to

24     see you back tomorrow.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 29114

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

 2     Tuesday, the 2nd of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

 3     courtroom, I.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.16 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

 6                           December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.