Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29198

 1                           Wednesday, 3 December 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             Mr. Traldi, we were informed that you had a matter -- a

12     preliminary matter.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Just very briefly, Your Honours.  I'll be using one

14     document this morning that wasn't on the list for the witness.  I had

15     listed 65 ter 20414, it's an intercept.  In checking our records last

16     night, I realised that the transcripts are in evidence as P6904 and

17     Mr. Stojanovic and I have agreed that we'll use the version that's

18     already in evidence rather than duplicating.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  That is hereby on the record.

22             Good morning, Mr. Sajic.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Good morning,

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sajic, before we continue I'd like to remind you

Page 29199

 1     that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the

 2     beginning of your testimony.

 3             Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.

 4             Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           WITNESS:  MILORAD SAJIC [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]

 9        Q.   Good morning, sir.

10        A.   Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

11        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 14 of your statement --

12             MR. TRALDI:  Now Exhibit D836.

13        Q.   -- you say:

14             "In April 1992, I became the secretary of the ARK Secretariat for

15     National Defence."

16             You were appointed to that position by the ARK Assembly; right?

17        A.   End of April, yes.

18        Q.   And you say in paragraph 16 of D836 that part of your job as

19     secretary of the secretariat was to be a link between the

20     Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence and the municipal secretariats.  I

21     want to ask you just a couple of questions about what that meant.

22             First, being a link meant transmitting communications and orders

23     from the Ministry of Defence to the municipal secretariats; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And it meant providing assistance to the municipal secretariats;

Page 29200

 1     right?

 2        A.   I was not a position to provide assistance and that was not a

 3     task that was specifically assigned to me.  Because at that time I was

 4     commander of the Territorial Defence of Banja Luka, and I could not

 5     really cover two posts.

 6        Q.   When you were serving the function as secretary of the

 7     secretariat, was part of your responsibility to assist municipal

 8     secretariats of national Defence?

 9        A.   I believe that my obligation was to convey what the ministry

10     wanted.  I really didn't have the capacity to provide any particular

11     assistance.  I didn't even visit these secretariats.  I did not go from

12     one municipality to the other.

13             MR. TRALDI:  Well, could we have 65 ter 31670, page 46.

14        Q.   And, sir, this will be another part of your Brdjanin testimony.

15             MR. TRALDI:  And I'm looking for the bottom of the page.

16        Q.   Beginning at line 17, you're asked:

17             "What were your job responsibilities as -- in this new position

18     that you were appointed to on 27 April 1992?"

19             And before I read your answer, that's the position of secretary

20     of the Secretariat for National Defence; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you answered:

23             "My obligation was to be a link between the Ministry of Defence

24     of the Socialist Republic of B and H, and the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

25     Herzegovina.  It was called," you clarified, "the Serb Republic of Bosnia

Page 29201

 1     and Herzegovina.  It was a link between the municipal secretariat and the

 2     ministry.  It was a link, a bypass, transmitting communications, orders,

 3     providing assistance to the municipality secretariats."

 4             Do you stand behind this portion of your Brdjanin testimony as

 5     truthful and accurate?

 6        A.   I don't have this in the Serbian version.  However, I have

 7     understood the interpretation of what you said and it is a fact that that

 8     is what I stated.

 9        Q.   And do you confirm today that what you stated in the Brdjanin

10     case was truthful, in the portion that I just read out to you?

11        A.   If you mean providing assistance, that is relatively part of my

12     statement too; but, all right, yes.

13        Q.   Now, the functions of the Secretariat for National Defence also

14     included recruitment for the army; right?

15        A.   Yes, but it is the municipal secretariats that were in charge,

16     not regional.

17        Q.   And did the municipal secretariats also keep records of men who

18     served in the army?

19        A.   Those are the only records that were kept; that is to say, at the

20     municipal secretariats.  That is to say, records of men and of materiel.

21     Yes.

22        Q.   I want to turn back now to the ARK Crisis Staff.  Sir, in

23     paragraph 63 of D836, you say it is "incorrect that an ARK Crisis Staff

24     was covertly formed on the 22nd of January, 1992."

25             MR. TRALDI:  In this respect, I'd like to look at 65 ter 20578.

Page 29202

 1        Q.   As it comes up, this is a transcript of an intercepted

 2     conversation between Radovan Karadzic and Jovan Cizmovic dated the 22nd

 3     of January, 1992.

 4             MR. TRALDI:  If we could turn to page 6 in the English and 7 in

 5     the B/C/S.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the statement is rather ambiguous in its

 7     language.  He is saying it is correct, I have no knowledge.  I mean, if

 8     have you no knowledge then it's very difficult to say that something is

 9     incorrect.  But that's statement-taking which is confusing rather than

10     enlightening.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And -- not certain we

13     have the right page in the English.  And I'd asked for page 6 which may

14     have been my mistake.  Can we confirm we've got that one.  Seven in the

15     B/C/S and 6 in the English.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They are both in English.

17             MR. TRALDI:  We'd had the correct English page a moment ago.  So

18     the B/C/S is now correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it's --

20             MR. TRALDI:  No, not anymore.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  To the left, we had -- on the left of our screen for

22     the B/C/S we had the right page, and now the right page for the English.

23             This is the right page, Mr. Traldi, in the B/C/S?

24             MR. TRALDI:  The B/C/S is correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now the English.

Page 29203

 1             MR. TRALDI:  The English is correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   And, sir, looking at -- it's the fifth, I believe, full quote

 5     there, Mr. Cizmovic is saying in this intercepted conversation from 22

 6     January:

 7             "Tonight we also established the Crisis Staff, which will act

 8     when nobody can get together, when they can assemble more quickly."

 9             So a Crisis Staff was formed in the ARK on the 22nd of January;

10     right?

11        A.   No.  In my view, it wasn't established.  This thing that Cizmovic

12     is saying, this, in this conversation, that doesn't have to mean

13     anything.  I mean, I haven't any -- seen any document of the 22nd and I

14     cannot accept this.  I can only accept that I don't know, but ... I've

15     never heard of this before.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 20578.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I take it that Madam Registrar is waiting for

18     the audio CD.

19             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 20578 receives number P6971,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   And in paragraph 36, sir, you say you attended some meetings of

Page 29204

 1     the ARK Crisis Staff.  When you didn't attend, would someone attend in

 2     your place?

 3        A.   May I have that in B/C/S?  All of this is in English.  And they

 4     keep showing it in English to me.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please have B/C/S.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, to the extent there's B/C/S, it will be

 8     shown to you.  To the extent there's no B/C/S, it will be translated for

 9     you.  So if you wait and not get upset about it.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. TRALDI:

12        Q.   Sir, you attended some meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And when you didn't attend, one of your subordinates in the TO

15     would attend in your place; right?

16        A.   I don't remember.  Maybe, but I'm not sure.  That's not the way

17     it was in practice.

18        Q.   Do you remember Mr. Topic replacing you at such meetings several

19     times?

20        A.   You mean the municipal or the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina?

21     There were two.

22        Q.   Let's take them one by one.  Did Mr. Topic ever replace you at

23     municipal Crisis Staff meetings?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And Mr. Topic was the number two man in the Territorial Defence;

Page 29205

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Did he ever replace you at ARK Crisis Staff meetings?

 4        A.   I have to make a correction here.  Kesic was number two, not

 5     Topic, but never mind.  I don't know whether he stood in for me at the

 6     Crisis Staff.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Did Kesic ever stand in for you at the Crisis Staff?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I cannot remember.

 9        Q.   Now, when one of your subordinates attended a Crisis Staff

10     meeting for you, do you remember if they'd tell you what happened at that

11     meeting?

12        A.   We did not really attach particular importance to the AR Krajina

13     Crisis Staff.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the first

15     sentence.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this obligation, it wasn't

17     really a major obligation that we had towards the AR Krajina Crisis

18     Staff.  Actually, we didn't have one at all.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, the question was not whether you found it

20     important.  The question was not whether it was an obligation.  The

21     question is whether if one of your immediate subordinates had been

22     present, whether they told you what happened during such meetings.  That

23     was the question.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's the answer to the question, that they did

Page 29206

 1     report that to you.

 2             Mr. Traldi, could you look at page 8, line 7 and seek whether you

 3     can --

 4             Before you, in your previous answer, said that you did not really

 5     attach particular importance, part of what you said was missing.  Do you

 6     remember what you said before you said that it was not particularly

 7     important for you; and, if so, would you please repeat that?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said now?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  What you said before you answered that the

10     Crisis Staff meetings were -- that you did not really attach particular

11     importance to that.  The interpreters told us that they missed a line

12     which you said before saying this.  If you don't remember, we'll proceed.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   Like your subordinates would sometimes attend in your place, when

16     General Talic couldn't attend ARK Crisis Staff meetings, the assistant

17     commander of the 1st Krajina Corps for civilian affairs,

18     Colonel Vujinovic, would attend the meetings; right?

19        A.   I saw Colonel Vujinovic at meetings, Talic only once.

20     Colonel Vujinovic was not a member of the Crisis Staff.  He was more of

21     an observer.

22        Q.   Sir, you've answered several questions but not the one that I

23     asked.  When General Talic couldn't attend, that's when Colonel Vujinovic

24     would attend on behalf of the corps; right?

25        A.   On behalf of the corps, yes.

Page 29207

 1        Q.   And like your subordinates would be responsible to tell you what

 2     had happened at the meeting, Colonel Vujinovic would be responsible to

 3     inform General Talic about what happened when he attended a Crisis Staff

 4     meeting and General Talic could not; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now while the ARK Crisis Staff was meet, the ARK Assembly wasn't

 7     meeting; right

 8        A.   I don't know whether the assembly sat during those months.

 9     Maybe, but I'm not sure.

10        Q.   Well, let me ask it this way:  It was the ARK Crisis Staff that

11     was issuing decisions in the Bosnian Krajina in May and June of 1992;

12     right?

13        A.   There were some decisions that were made by the Crisis Staff and

14     some conclusions were reached, but since the Crisis Staff of the

15     AR Krajina was not accepted as some kind of organ, then --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We didn't hear the end of

17     the sentence again.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please come a bit closer to the microphone

19     and repeat the last part of your answer.  You said that:

20             "Since the Crisis Staff of the ARK was not accepted as some kind

21     of an organ, then ..."

22             And could you tell us what you then said?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then they couldn't pass decisions

24     on behalf of the -- of the Assembly of the AR Krajina.  There was the

25     Executive Council, and these decisions that were made were not accepted

Page 29208

 1     by all municipalities.  And decisions were being reached, so the answer

 2     would be, yes.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note: Could all microphones

 4     please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank you.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let have first 65 ter 31672, page 23.

 6        Q.   This will be another part of your Brdjanin testimony.  And again,

 7     the transcript will be in English and I'll read it out to you.

 8             Beginning at line 6 you're asked -- let's begin at line 7:

 9             "Just one more question.  I don't have the exact page reference

10     but you'll agree with me that during the time the ARK Crisis Staff met,

11     the ARK Assembly was not meeting; correct?  If you need to, we can dig it

12     out of your transcript."

13             You responded:

14             "I don't think so.  I don't think it was correct."

15             And you were asked:

16             "... so it was the ARK Crisis Staff that was issuing decisions in

17     the Krajina in June of 1992; correct?"

18             And you answered:

19             "Yes."

20             Do you confirm today that it was the ARK Crisis Staff that was

21     issuing the decisions on its own authority in the Krajina in June of

22     1992?

23        A.   Decisions, yes.  Now, whether they could do that on the basis of

24     the law, no.  Made decisions, yes.  And the decisions were being

25     published too.

Page 29209

 1        Q.   Now, you said in an answer a moment ago - and you say in your

 2     statement - that some municipalities did not accept the ARK Crisis

 3     Staff's decisions.  I'll look at a few examples later this morning.  But

 4     before we do that, in fact, you can only speak about Banja Luka and you

 5     don't know the extent to which other municipalities in the ARK

 6     implemented ARK Crisis Staff conclusions; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I want to ask you now about some of the statements made by

 9     Mr. Brdjanin, the president of the Crisis Staff.

10             In paragraph 42, you say that you don't know whether and why

11     Brdjanin said in the media that only a thousand Muslims would be allowed

12     to stay in Banja Luka to clean the streets, but you'd heard from others

13     that he did say this.  I have several questions in this respect.  First,

14     you heard this from Serbs in Banja Luka; right?

15        A.   I never heard that, this sentence of 1.000 Muslims.  And this is

16     something that my brain will never accept.  But that I heard all sorts of

17     things being said, that's true, but this thing, 1.000 Muslims, no.  I

18     mean, if I'm forced to say yes, then --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

20     end of the sentence.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, you're not forced to say anything.

22     You only have an obligation to tell us the truth.  The question was not

23     whether you could possibly think it to be true, but since in your

24     statement we read that you heard others saying that this is what

25     Mr. Brdjanin had said, the question was whether you heard this from Serbs

Page 29210

 1     in Banja Luka?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I talked about this to

 3     the investigator too and for a long time at that.  Brdjanin was saying

 4     all sorts of things.  That's true.  But I did not hear --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness -- stop.  I stop you there.  In

 6     your statement, you said that you heard from others that Brdjanin had

 7     said this.  Now, whether these others were telling the truth or not is a

 8     different matter.  But the question is:  Who were those that had told you

 9     that Brdjanin had said this?  Were they Serbs from Banja Luka?  That's

10     the question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But in your statement recently you said that you

13     heard this from others but you have no idea who told you this?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31671, page 44.

17        Q.   Sir, this will be another part of your Brdjanin testimony.

18             Now, beginning on line 19 at the bottom of the page, you're

19     asked:

20             "I want to ask you a little bit about some of the things

21     Mr. Brdjanin said when he was president of the ARK Crisis Staff, and

22     perhaps just before he became president as well.  One of the things you

23     were asked about in this interview that you remembered was hearing from

24     other Serbs that Mr. Brdjanin had said in the media - doesn't say whether

25     it's TV or radio - that only a thousand Muslims will be allowed to stay

Page 29211

 1     in Banja Luka and that those thousand Muslims will be comprised of

 2     elderly people who will put to cleaning the streets."

 3             And you were asked:

 4             "Now, do you remember hearing about that from Serbs in

 5     Banja Luka, that they had heard Mr. Brdjanin say that in the media, as

 6     you state in the interview?"

 7             And you responded:

 8             "Yes."

 9             Does this portion of your sworn Brdjanin testimony refresh your

10     recollection as to whether Serbs in Banja Luka had told you that they

11     heard Mr. Brdjanin say this in the media?

12        A.   I cannot remember who told me.  I communicated with -- with

13     Croats and Muslims.  It's possible that it was also Serbs.  I'm not

14     denying it.

15        Q.   Next, you say in your statement that Muslims and Croats in

16     Banja Luka were "certainly disturbed by such statements."  What you mean

17     specifically is that they were made to be afraid; right?

18        A.   It's a part of that, but they were disturbed because of more

19     serious things, but one of the reasons was also this.

20        Q.   Now this statement, that only a small number of elderly Muslims

21     could stay in Banja Luka to sweep the streets, this is a derogatory

22     statement about Muslims; right?

23        A.   It is, yes.

24        Q.   And while you didn't -- while your evidence is that you didn't

25     hear Mr. Brdjanin say this specifically, you can confirm that

Page 29212

 1     Mr. Brdjanin made these types of derogatory speeches in the media; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 03277.

 4        Q.   Now, in paragraph 41 of D836 you say you don't believe that

 5     Mr. Brdjanin personally called for the dismissal of Muslims and Croats

 6     from work in Banja Luka.

 7             Now, this is a decision by the ARK Crisis Staff dated the 26th of

 8     May, 1992.  Directing your attention to point 3, we read:

 9             "Leading posts in social and public organisations may be occupied

10     only by the most professional persons who are absolutely devoted to the

11     Serbian people in the Serbian Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina."

12             And that meant Serbs; right?

13        A.   It's the same thing today.  The party that wins will appoint its

14     own cadre.  There were also loyal Muslims and Croats, loyal to

15     Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   Well, I'll get to that in a second.

17             MR. TRALDI:  But before I do, I tender 65 ter 03277.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 3277 receives number P6972,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P6948.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 29213

 1        Q.   This is a decision by the ARK Crisis Staff dated the 22nd of

 2     June, 1992, and it's signed by Mr. Brdjanin.  And directing your

 3     attention to the first point, we read:

 4             "Only personnel of Serbian ethnicity may hold executive post,

 5     posts where the information flow is possible, and posts involving the

 6     protection of socially owned property ..."

 7             And then at the end of that first point, we read:

 8             "Likewise, these posts may not be held by those employees of

 9     Serbian ethnicity who have not confirmed it in the plebiscite or have not

10     yet accepted that the only representative of the Serbian people is the

11     Serbian Democratic Party."

12             So here Mr. Brdjanin is quite explicitly signing a document that

13     calls for Muslims and Croats to be dismissed from their positions; right?

14        A.   The Serbian Democratic Party had complete power which it won in

15     the elections, and it appointed its own cadres.  The same principle

16     applies today, that the requirement that the cadres even have to be

17     members of the SDS.  So automatically if somebody was a Muslim and a

18     director, they could not be a director any longer.  They could be

19     something else but not a director.  This is just one example.

20        Q.   I appreciate that additional detail, sir.  But directly relevant

21     to your statement, this document shows that through his position as

22     president of the ARK Crisis Staff, Mr. Brdjanin, in fact, did personally

23     call for the dismissal of Muslims and Croats; right?

24        A.   I don't see that he said dismiss them, but he just said that they

25     could not occupy executive posts.  But I don't see it written anywhere

Page 29214

 1     that they ought to be dismissed.  The decision on appointment of cadres

 2     was made by the Executive Board.  They would sign the decision, unless

 3     there was some kind of abuse of power.  But a director, if he's no longer

 4     a director, could do something else.

 5        Q.   To implement this decision, that only personnel of Serbian

 6     ethnicity may hold executive posts, it is would be necessary for Muslims

 7     and Croats who held executive posts and these other types of posts

 8     described in point I to stop holding those posts; right?

 9        A.   Those who were in leadership positions or places where

10     information was coming in or being disseminated and were not Serbs were

11     to be replaced.

12        Q.   Now you also saw this document in your Karadzic testimony, and

13     I'd like to look at that for a moment.

14             MR. TRALDI:  Could we 65 ter 31673, page 17.

15        Q.   And you were asked similarly:

16             "Okay.  Well, at paragraph 41," same statement, "you said you did

17     not believe that Brdjanin personally called for the dismissal of Muslims

18     and Croats, but this document shows that through his position as ARK

19     Crisis Staff president he did exactly that, called for the dismissal of

20     Muslims and Croats; right?"

21             And you answered:

22             "From the documents it appears so."

23             First, do you stand by that portion of your sworn Karadzic

24     testimony as truthful and accurate?

25        A.   Well, perhaps we could change the play of words here.

Page 29215

 1     Replacement and dismissal is not the same thing.  Even when we were

 2     talking a little bit earlier, I would say, yes, they were being relieved

 3     from their posts but it's not dismissal.  And it doesn't say dismissal.

 4     I don't know if anybody dismissed anybody, but ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If you -- if you replace one person by another, then

 6     that one person does not hold that post any further.  To that extent,

 7     he's out.  Let me just use ordinary language.  Do you know what happened

 8     with those who were out for these reasons?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many stayed in the same company

10     doing different work, in a different job.  Your Honours, many stayed at

11     work.  Many did leave.  I don't know.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know or do you not know?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You say "many stayed."  Could you give us the

15     function and the names of some persons in executive positions who stayed?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in the Meridijan.  I cannot

17     remember his name.  His name was Hilmija and he was in the Meridijan

18     company.  He was replaced but he remained employed.  He still worked in

19     that company and he worked there for a long time until he left.  But in

20     1992 he was working.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What was his new position?  What was his new

22     position in that firm.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember.  It was a less

24     important job.  They would get less important positions, less important

25     ones.  Perhaps they were an advisor or some kind of assistant or a clerk.

Page 29216

 1     Something that was less important.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And he was of what ethnicity?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Bosniak, Muslim.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you have any other names, please write them

 5     down during the break - that is, company and the name of that

 6     executive -- that person in an executive position - so that we can

 7     consider facts in this respect.

 8             Mr. Traldi.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Before we leave this topic, sir, in paragraph 41 of D836, you say

11     in pertinent part:

12             "I can agree, however, that in 1992 Muslims and Croats were

13     dismissed from work."

14             Do you stand behind that portion of your witness statement?

15        A.   Could you please repeat your question.

16        Q.   Sure.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Can we get paragraph 41 of D836 on the screen,

18     please.  We have the right part of the English, yes.  And in the B/C/S, I

19     think it will be the top of the next page.

20             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   So you say, in pertinent part:

23             "I can agree, however, that in 1992 Muslims and Croats were

24     dismissed from work."

25             This is in your witness statement which you swore was truthful

Page 29217

 1     and accurate in this case which you also swore was truthful and accurate

 2     in the Karadzic case.  Do you stand behind this portion of your witness

 3     statement?

 4             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

 5     think that it would be good to read the entire sentence to the witness

 6     and not just a part of it and that way just take it out of the -- out of

 7     context.  Perhaps then the witness can respond to the question.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, you're doing what has been done so

 9     many times, that is to, more or less, give signals to the witness, which

10     you should not do.  If there's any matter, if you say, I would appreciate

11     if Mr. Traldi would give context or more context, that message is clear

12     enough for Mr. Traldi.  And if he doesn't understand it or if he

13     considers it better not to do that at that moment, you have a possibility

14     in re-examination to deal with the matter.

15             Mr. Traldi, I don't know whether you find it a good suggestion or

16     not, but we leave it to that at this moment.

17             MR. TRALDI:  I'm happy to read the whole sentence.  But I will be

18     asking the witness specifically again whether he confirms the portion I

19     read.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

21             MR. TRALDI:

22        Q.   So the full sentence is:

23             "I can agree, however, that in 1992 Muslims and Croats were

24     dismissed from work, but I do not agree that the Crisis Staff was fully

25     responsible for that because Serbs were also dismissed."

Page 29218

 1             Now, do you confirm what you say in this sentence that in 1992

 2     Muslims and Croats were dismissed from work?

 3        A.   If you permit me, I read the entire sentence, and it has a

 4     completely different meaning than the question that was put to me.

 5     Completely.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness -- Witness.

 7             Mr. Stojanovic, you see now what is the result of how you

 8     operate.  I don't need any further -- I've just established this.

 9             Witness, the question simply was whether you still confirm that

10     in 1992 Muslims and Croats were dismissed from work.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

13             Mr. Stojanovic --

14             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Unless you have any objection against one of the

16     questions or if you have any legitimate reason to interfere, you may do

17     so, but not to further comment on what I just said.  That's what you're

18     not allowed to do.  If there's anything else, please proceed.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic.

21             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due

22     respect, I just wanted to say for the transcript that I did not have the

23     intention as was placed here.  I -- in the transcript, I just put that

24     for purposes of context and I wish to say that for the transcript.  I did

25     not have any erroneous goals or objectives.

Page 29219

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You could have done so at a later stage.

 2             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Or malicious.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I said that you're supposed to not to further

 4     comment on what I said.  And the only thing I said is not that you

 5     intentionally did it.  I said this the result of what you did.  I didn't

 6     even discuss the intentions.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. TRALDI:

 9        Q.   The Serbs you say in that sentence were also dismissed were those

10     not loyal to the SDS as reflected in your comments earlier this morning

11     and Mr. Brdjanin's decision that we just looked at; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Relatedly, you say in paragraph 43 of D836 that you --

14             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Before you go to paragraph 43, I just have a

15     question.

16             You're saying that the Crisis Staff was not fully responsible for

17     the dismissal.  Who was -- who had dismissed these Muslims?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The companies.  The leadership of

19     the company.  And the companies either accepted or did not accept the

20     decisions of the Crisis Staff.

21             JUDGE MOLOTO:  The decision of the Crisis Staff as contained in

22     Mr. Brdjanin's decision that was referred to earlier?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Thank you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one additional question.

Page 29220

 1             You say the Crisis Staff was not fully responsible.  But that

 2     decision should be implemented.  And if you would not implement it, you'd

 3     be fired yourself, isn't it?  That's what the decision says.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would need to read the decision

 5     again, but I wouldn't have -- I wasn't dismissed and I didn't fulfil

 6     the -- implement the decisions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Whether that was given effect, yes or no, is

 8     a different matter.  But let's have a look at the decision again so that

 9     you can read it.  And it was --

10             Could you please assist me.

11             MR. TRALDI:  P6948, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm drawing your attention to point III.  And in

13     relation to that, also point II, the deadline for the fulfilment of the

14     tasks given was 26th of June.  That's four days after the decision was

15     issued.  And then III reads:

16             "Failure to comply with the above mentioned decision shall

17     automatically result in the dismissal of the responsible persons."

18             Now, Mr. Sajic, if you say that there is no full responsibility

19     for the Crisis Staff, would you agree with me that if there's such a

20     clear threat, that if you don't do what is ordered, that this gives at

21     least great part, if not all, of the responsibility to the Crisis Staff?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it's a question of replacing

23     people, not dismissing them.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, you --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a question of dismissal.

Page 29221

 1     That's how I understood it.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you agree with me that not doing what is

 3     order tells you is heavily sanctioned and that that -- but please tell us

 4     whether you agree or not.  And that makes the Crisis Staff very

 5     responsible for any result of what they decided.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff didn't have the

 7     instruments to apply any sanctions.  None.  Other than the fact that

 8     Brdjanin signed a decision.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  So -- so you say so this is distributed but everyone

10     just thinks, Well, why would we care, because it's just the Crisis Staff.

11     We don't do it.  Is that your position in interpreting this document.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not interpreting it like that,

13     Your Honour.  This is how I interpret it, if you permit me to explain.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Briefly, yes.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff made a decision

16     and disseminated it to all publicly-owned enterprises, so the usual thing

17     would be that these replacements would be carried out.  But if they were

18     not, they were perhaps not expecting -- they were not complying with the

19     decision of the Crisis Staff.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last two

21     sentences of what he said.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last two sentences.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The decision that publicly-owned

24     and other companies and institutions received was implemented to a

25     significant degree but not everyone complied with the decision.  They did

Page 29222

 1     not dismiss the people in question but they would assign them to other

 2     jobs.  Some of them.  And so the Crisis Staff could not apply any

 3     punitive measures or any punishment because of this action.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you say you -- you earlier said you didn't

 5     implement these -- this decision or ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Who was it that you kept in an executive position

 8     and who was of Croat or Muslim ethnicity which you did not replace in

 9     your organisation?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my organisation at the TO Staff,

11     I did not replace anyone.  Zoran Kolak was my security chief for security

12     of buildings.  I didn't replace him.  He was a Croat.  Zdenko Mesud; the

13     first one was a Croat, the second one was a Muslim.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And they stayed until when?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They stayed as long as I did.

16     Afterwards, they moved into brigades.  I stopped on the 15th of June,

17     de facto and de jure, whatever you wish, and they went to the units of

18     the Serb republic, the light brigades.  And they went there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So you said you did not implement this decision

20     because they stayed, and you said that they stayed until the 15th of

21     June.  That's what you're telling us?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how long I was their

23     commander.  Later on, they stayed --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, the decision was of the 22nd of June.  So if

25     you were not in your position anymore, then it was -- there was no

Page 29223

 1     question about implementing or not.  Because what happened until the 15th

 2     of June could not be covered by a decision of the 22nd of June, would it?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.  They continued in

 4     the light brigades after the 15th of June.  That's an extension of the

 5     Territorial Defence.  That's what I meant when I said that.  They

 6     continued along this path.  In the brigades.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What you said is:  I wasn't dismissed, and I didn't

 8     implement the decisions.

 9             We [sic] are talking about what happened 15th of June; whereas,

10     we are talking about a decision issued on the 22nd of June.

11             Leave it to that.  If there's any follow-up questions,

12     Mr. Traldi, I leave it to you.

13             We'll first take a break.  We'd like to see you back in 20

14     minutes.  You may follow the usher.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at five minutes to 11.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  While we're waiting for the witness to be brought

20     in, Mr. Stojanovic, have you checked the adjudicated facts as we advised

21     you to do yesterday, whether they are, indeed, for the full 100 percent

22     the same?

23             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We tried, Your Honour, and I

24     think that we can inform you about the checks that we carried out.  To

25     the best of our understanding, I will tell you in the briefest possible

Page 29224

 1     terms.  Adjudicated facts as marked 416, 427, 430, 431, 433, and 456 --

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- it seems that they are

 4     absolutely identical.  Adjudicated fact 447 in the Karadzic case, though,

 5     has a phrase in its first sentence and that goes beyond what is contained

 6     in the Mladic adjudicated facts.  The words are as follows --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, of course, we identified that

 8     already quite a while ago.  What we want you to be aware of that there

 9     are differences and that you didn't --

10             MR. LUKIC:  That's right.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- verify that exactly at the beginning and the same

12     is true for 421, that was overturned by the Appeals Chamber.  447 was

13     rephrased.  And we expect you to take adequate action on those

14     differences.  But are there any others apart from 421 and 447 which you

15     identified as being different?

16             MR. LUKIC:  No.  No, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Then take adequate action for that because the

18     witness, of course, commented on the adjudicated facts as phrased in his

19     statement rather than as the adjudicated facts as phrased in this case.

20             Mr. Traldi, if you're ready, you may proceed.

21             MR. TRALDI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Sir, returning to the topic of dismissals, you say in

23     paragraph 43 of your statement that you:

24             "... do not deny that Croatian and Muslim officers were dismissed

25     from the 1st Krajina Corps."

Page 29225

 1             In fact, you can confirm that Croatian and Muslim officers were

 2     purged from the 1st Krajina Corps; right?

 3        A.   Purged?

 4        Q.   "Purged" is the word I used, yes.

 5        A.   No.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31672, page 9.

 7        Q.   As it comes up this will be another portion of your Brdjanin

 8     testimony.  Again it will appear in English and I'll read it out to you.

 9     Now, the question here -- you're referred to a document, and the question

10     I'm interested begins on line 23.  You were asked:

11             "Now you know, don't you, that in fact ultimately not right on

12     this day, but soon thereafter officers of Muslim and Croat [sic]

13     nationality were purged from the 1st Krajina Corps correct?"

14             MR. TRALDI:  We turn to the next page.

15        Q.   You say:

16             "I'm not trying to deny that but I do not know the exact date

17     when these officers were purged or who exactly was purged.  I don't know

18     the date, whether it was on the same day or not.  I can see this order by

19     Mladic, and it looks quite clear to me."

20             And you were asked:

21             "I'm not asking you for the day; I just wanted your confirmation

22     that it in fact occurred, that these men of Muslim and Croat nationality

23     were, in fact, purged from the 1st Krajina Corps ranks.  Correct?  Don't

24     worry about the exact day."

25             And you answered:

Page 29226

 1             "Yes."

 2             Do you stand behind this portion of your testimony in the

 3     Brdjanin case as truthful and accurate?

 4        A.   This notion of purging is something I find unclear.  Dismissal

 5     and reassignment is something different.  That's why I react and said no.

 6     As for this interpretation of yours, I'm not sure whether it is dismissal

 7     or --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the essence is whether officers of Muslim

 9     and Croat nationality were dismissed from their jobs in the

10     1st Krajina Corps.  Were they?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active-duty officers, yes.  On

12     orders they were transferred.  Up until the end of the war.  They were on

13     leave and then they were reassigned.  And reserve officers stayed.

14     Reserve officers.  All of them are officers, reserve officers,

15     active-duty officers.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand you well that officers of Muslim and

17     Croat nationality who were put on leave, that they returned after the

18     war?  Is that -- in their old positions?  Is that what you are telling

19     us?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I'm telling you

21     that --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. TRALDI:

25        Q.   I'm going to turn now to communications.

Page 29227

 1             Sir, you discuss communications between the ARK and Pale in your

 2     statement and you mention the regional communication centre in

 3     Banja Luka.  The regional centre in Banja Luka was already connected with

 4     the republican centre by the 23rd of March, 1992; right?

 5        A.   That's the way it should have been, but then I don't know.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P4088.

 7        Q.   Now this is a document coming from the SDS dated the 23rd of

 8     March, 1992.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, could you assist us in finding the right

10     paragraph.

11             MR. TRALDI:  The third paragraph in both versions, please.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I mean paragraph in the statement because --

13     unless you are not referring to any paragraph in the statement of the

14     witness.

15             MR. TRALDI:  He discusses communications at some length.  The

16     regional communications centre, I'm afraid I don't have the paragraph in

17     front of me.  It's a brief reference.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll try to find it.  Please proceed.

19             MR. TRALDI:

20        Q.   The third paragraph here reads:

21             "Regional centres in Banja Luka, Trebinje, Sokolac, and Bijeljina

22     are already connected with the republican centre of TT and radio

23     communications ..."

24             So it's correct, isn't it, that by the 23rd of March, 1992 the

25     regional communications centre in Banja Luka was connected with the

Page 29228

 1     republican communications centre?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 10743.

 4        Q.   This is an article in Glas dated the 9th of May, 1992, entitled:

 5     "Information Blockade Lifted."  It includes a number of quotes from

 6     Zeljko Katic, and he was the head of the regional information centre;

 7     right?

 8        A.   I think that Zeljko Katic was in that centre.  I know him but I'm

 9     not sure whether he actually headed.

10        Q.   Looking at the second paragraph in the article we read that as of

11     9th of May:

12             "The regional information centre is operating 24 hours a day

13     non-stop."

14             MR. TRALDI:  And turning to page 2 in the English near the top

15     and the second column in the B/C/S of the same article.

16        Q.   We read that among its other responsibilities, the regional

17     communications centre was:  "... directly connecting the leadership of

18     the municipality with the Autonomous Region of Krajina."

19             That was one of the regional information centre's functions;

20     right?

21        A.   Its function was always communication between Sarajevo and

22     Banja Luka, and that's the way it remained.  It was not communication

23     between municipalities.  Secretariats, yes.  Somebody from the AR Krajina

24     probably used this, either the Executive Council or the Crisis Staff.  So

25     if you have a centre through which you can send a dispatch, then people

Page 29229

 1     do use it.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 10743.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 10743 receives number P6973,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P3027.  And I apologise.

 8        Q.   Now, this is an order Minister of Defence Subotic issued on the

 9     16th of April, 1992.  Among other things, under "decision," it calls for:

10     "A general, public mobilisation ... on the entire territory."  Now, you

11     implemented this order; right?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you answer the question, whether you

13     implemented this order, especially on the part Mr. Traldi read to you?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph number 1?

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   The part I read to you was:  "A general, public mobilisation has

17     been ordered on the entire territory of SBH."  You implemented this order

18     and specifically that point in the ARK; right?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps for the witness to be able to read it, it's

20     at the bottom of the page under number 2, so the second "odluku" but then

21     under 2.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How about going to the end?  I

23     didn't even see this.  I looked at the first one, not the second one.

24     The decision, I mean.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the reason why I invited you to read the

Page 29230

 1     latter part.  Start reading at 2 at the bottom of the page.  And then the

 2     question is whether you implemented this.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. TRALDI:

 5        Q.   And you had to have communications with Pale to receive this

 6     order; right?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   How could you have received this order if you couldn't receive

 9     communications from Pale?

10        A.   This decision was probably provided to me by someone as a

11     dispatch from that centre.  I never entered the centre during the war.  I

12     never said dispatches to Pale.

13        Q.   Let me rephrase my question.  For you to implement this order, it

14     was necessary for the Autonomous Region of Krajina to have communications

15     with Pale where the order was issued; correct?

16        A.   This decision was not published anywhere.  It was submitted to me

17     through --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, let's keep matters simple.  In order to

19     implement it, you must have received it.  In order to receive it, there

20     must be a way of communication between Pale and you.  That's the

21     question, whether you agree with that.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  And in fact there was an operating teleprinter

25     connection between Pale and Banja Luka at this point, the 16th of April,

Page 29231

 1     1992; right?

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

 3     witness.  Could all unnecessary microphones please be switched off.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you repeat your answer, please, Witness,

 6     speaking into the microphone.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 31682.

 9        Q.   This is a decision from the ARK Crisis Staff dated THE 15th of

10     May, 1992, signed by Mr. Brdjanin and type-signed by you.  Turning to

11     page 2 in the B/C/S and still on 1 -- or beginning on 1 in the English,

12     we see a list of issues on which reports should be submitted as specified

13     at the top of the text to the ARK Crisis Staff via the district reporting

14     centre.  So as of 15 May 1992 via the district reporting centre, the

15     Crisis Staff in the ARK had communications with municipal organs; right?

16        A.   I don't see who it was sent to.  I just see this decision.

17        Q.   Here in the first point, we read:

18             "In order to ensure continual insight into the situation on the

19     territory of the AR Krajina and a framework for adopting decisions by the

20     Crisis Staff, the municipal organs are required to report to the district

21     organs, and they should report to the AR Krajina Crisis Staff operative

22     on duty, via the district reporting centre ..."

23             This is a decision issued on the 15th of May.  What I'm putting

24     to you is:  At that point, the district reporting centre was functioning

25     and the municipal organs were capable of issuing reports in the way that

Page 29232

 1     you and Mr. Brdjanin are deciding they should do here; right?

 2        A.   Some had the ability, others did not.  Some municipalities that

 3     did not have printers could not file reports.  But generally speaking,

 4     yes.

 5             MR. TRALDI:  I tender 65 ter 31682.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 31682 receives number P6974,

 8     Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

10             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have P6904.

11        Q.   While this comes up, sir, you claim that the ARK and the central

12     republican authorities had substantial differences and that the ARK

13     Crisis Staff was not the highest organ of authority in the ARK because of

14     its differences with the leadership in Pale.

15             Now, this is a transcript of an intercepted phone conversation

16     between President Karadzic and Mr. Brdjanin on the 1st of November, 1991.

17             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 4 in the English and page 3 in the

18     B/C/S.

19        Q.   President Karadzic tells Brdjanin, in pertinent part:

20             "Call me about something that you cannot resolve.  You have all

21     the power in Krajina.  Why don't you exercise this power?"

22             Now, President Karadzic is recognizing Mr. Brdjanin's authority

23     in the ARK; right?

24        A.   What's the line?  I cannot see that.

25        Q.   Do you see where about six lines from the bottom,

Page 29233

 1     President Karadzic is -- asks:  Can you solve a single problem without

 2     Karadzic.  It's two of President Karadzic's statements below that, so the

 3     second line from the bottom.  The second quote from the bottom, starts:

 4     "But no, no, it is not that I can't."  And there's a -- there's a cursor

 5     next to it on the screen at the moment.

 6        A.   It's at the bottom?

 7        Q.   It's -- it's next to what looks like a little magnifying-glass on

 8     the screen, sir.  So my question for you about this line is simple:  When

 9     President Karadzic says to Mr. Brdjanin, "You have all the power in

10     Krajina.  Why don't you exercise this power?" he is recognizing that

11     Mr. Brdjanin has substantial power in the Autonomous Region of Krajina;

12     right?

13        A.   "Significant," "substantial," and "all" is not the same thing.

14     The authority was in the Executive Council.  They are accusing each

15     other, the Crisis Staff, the Executive Council.  This happened once some

16     went to complain to Karadzic.  They actually gossiped about each other.

17     And when he said, "You have all the power," he didn't mean just Brdjanin

18     having all the power.  This is at least what I understand.

19             MR. TRALDI:  Well, turning to page 5 in the English and 4 in the

20     B/C/S, and it's seventh or eighth line down right below Mr. Brdjanin

21     utters the single word "Kupresanin."

22        Q.   President Karadzic is speaking very directly to Mr. Brdjanin and

23     he says:

24             "Come on, man, do your job.  Don't call me about every minor

25     problem.  I'm not your nanny.  You have power in your hands, and you have

Page 29234

 1     presidents of municipalities through whom you can exercise this

 2     power ..."

 3             He's speaking directly to Mr. Brdjanin there; right?

 4        A.   I understand this as a conversation between Radoslav Brdjanin and

 5     Radovan Karadzic in which they refer to Mr. Kupresanin, and in this case

 6     he's using the president of the region, Kupresanin, as a personality, as

 7     a function, and where Karadzic says that they should call the president

 8     of the municipalities, he meant that the region should do that.

 9     Kupresanin or somebody else.  I don't see that Brdjo could do that.  And

10     if he did do that, I don't see that all of that was done the way it was

11     supposed.

12        Q.   Your interpretation is based solely on having read the text of

13     this paragraph just now because you were not privy to any conversations

14     between President Karadzic and Mr. Brdjanin yourself; right?

15        A.   I was not present.  That is correct.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, of course, you're asking questions to

17     the witness in a similar vein by saying do you confirm that he is

18     recognizing that Mr. Brdjanin has substantial power.  You're inviting the

19     witness to interpret it.  So then, don't be surprised if he comes with an

20     interpretation and then you put to him you have no knowledge about it.

21     That's a bit odd in my view.

22             Let's -- I have one other question.  Is there any reason why you

23     say the date is the 1st of November, whereas the document says it's the

24     31st of October?

25             MR. TRALDI:  My notes may be in error, Mr. President, and I'll

Page 29235

 1     check and respond at the break.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. TRALDI:

 4        Q.   Related to exercising power through the presidents of the

 5     municipalities, in paragraph 50, you mention that you had the

 6     impression --

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Paragraph 50 of D836.

 8        Q.   -- that meetings of presidents of municipalities would be held on

 9     Mondays.  These were meetings between the presidents of municipalities in

10     the ARK and the ARK Crisis Staff; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   These Monday meetings were held regularly; right?

13        A.   I didn't attend every meeting.  They were quite frequent.  But I

14     don't know about regular.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Well, just for clarity, let's have 65 ter 31672,

16     page 42.

17        Q.   Another portion of your Brdjanin testimony.  Sorry, I've called

18     up the wrong portion of your Brdjanin testimony.

19             MR. TRALDI:  It's been uploaded under three numbers.  If I could

20     have just one second, Your Honour.  If we have 31671, page 42.

21        Q.   You were asked about the Monday morning meetings with the

22     presidents of the various municipalities.  And then, beginning at line

23     11, you say -- you're asked, rather:

24             "And you stated later on, it's not particularly important, that

25     you remembered that these Monday meetings were regular.  Right?  On page

Page 29236

 1     72 of the English."

 2             And you responded:

 3             "Yes."

 4             So it's correct, as you testified in the Brdjanin case, that

 5     these Monday morning meetings were regular; right?

 6        A.   I don't have a translation but if that's what I said, that's what

 7     I thought at the time.  I wasn't at all the meetings, but it's possible

 8     that they were.  I mean, perhaps they were held every Monday.

 9     Saints' Days were occurring as well.

10        Q.   One of the purposes of the meetings was that so presidents of

11     municipalities could go back to their municipalities and brief those

12     municipalities on what was concluded or discussed at the ARK Crisis Staff

13     meetings; right?

14        A.   I don't know what the reason was.  I really cannot say.  Who

15     would he inform about the presidents?

16        Q.   What I was putting to you was that the presidents of these

17     municipalities would inform their municipal Crisis Staffs or their

18     Municipal Executive Boards about what was being decided and discussed at

19     the ARK Crisis Staff meetings.  That's true, isn't it?

20        A.   In my opinion, the people who were supposed to be there were the

21     presidents of the Crisis Staffs.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And the question then was whether they were invited

23     to pass on to the local Crisis Staffs or their Municipal Executive Boards

24     what had been decided in the ARK Crisis Staff.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how they

Page 29237

 1     were summoned, what was the way that they were summoned.  I know that it

 2     would -- was a meeting without any agenda and they, as presidents of

 3     municipalities, and at the same time the presidents of their Crisis

 4     Staffs, probably once they returned to their municipality, I assume, I'm

 5     not sure, I don't know, I cannot assert this 100 per cent, they would

 6     call the president of the Crisis Staff, the members of the inner circle,

 7     and then they would say, Well, that was what was discussed.  That would

 8     be that.

 9             MR. TRALDI:

10        Q.   Sir, in paragraphs 55 through 58 of D836, you discuss a meeting

11     of the ARK Crisis Staff where the Prijedor representatives discussed

12     facilities that you referred to as collection centres and investigation

13     centres.  Was this one of the Monday meetings where representatives from

14     different municipalities were present?

15        A.   I can't remember.  It was 20 years ago.  But, probably, yes,

16     it --  if it was.  I mean, if it means anything to you.

17        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin chaired this meeting; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the Prijedor representatives were Milomir Stakic,

20     Simo Drljaca, and Slobodan Kuruzovic; right?

21        A.   I think so, yes.

22        Q.   Now you testified earlier that if General Talic was not present

23     at a Crisis Staff meet, Colonel Vujinovic would attend instead.  Do you

24     recall who attended this session on behalf of the 1st Krajina Corps?

25        A.   I know that Vujinovic attended usually, but I don't know about

Page 29238

 1     that particular case, whether he was there or not.  I don't know what I

 2     said.  I don't know if he was there on that occasion or not.

 3        Q.   Now, at this meeting it was clear to you and the other people

 4     there that there were large numbers of people being held in what you

 5     called collection centres in the ARK at that time; right?

 6        A.   It was known that there was a number of people in the collection

 7     centre.  I don't know exactly how many.  I knew that something was

 8     happening in the area of Prijedor and that there was a collection centre.

 9     I didn't know what the number of people was.  And I think that nobody at

10     the meeting ever specifically said that there was such and such a number

11     of people there.

12        Q.   It was clear that the people being held in those centres were

13     non-Serbs; right?

14        A.   That was clear.

15        Q.   You mention in your statement that Predrag Radic later went to

16     Omarska and that he told you he was upset by what he saw there.  I have a

17     few questions specifically about what he told you.  First, Mr. Radic told

18     you about his visit about a day after he'd been to the camp; right?

19        A.   Perhaps that afternoon.  Perhaps in the afternoon on that day or

20     the next day.  But in any case, it was quite soon after.

21        Q.   And you're aware that Radoslav Brdjanin and Mr. Vukic were also

22     part of the delegation; right?

23        A.   I think so.  I think that that was the delegation.  I don't know

24     if anybody else was there.

25        Q.   Do you recall if anyone else was present when you had this

Page 29239

 1     conversation with Mr. Radic?

 2        A.   I don't think so.  I know Radic went and Vukic.  I don't know

 3     about anybody else.

 4        Q.   And setting aside the details of the conversation you had in

 5     Radic -- you had with Radic, you know as you sit there today that Omarska

 6     in 1992 was a terrible place for the prisoners held there and that crimes

 7     were committed against the people who were held there; right?

 8        A.   According to what I found out later, about crimes being

 9     committed, yes, I did know that crimes were committed.

10        Q.   Now, sir, at the end of your statement, you challenge a number of

11     adjudicated facts, and I'm going to address a couple of those now.

12     First, in paragraph 68 of your statement, D836, you state that:

13             "Restrictions on free movement were aimed at all citizens

14     regardless of their nationality."

15             Now, in fact, with the possible exception of Banja Luka, you

16     don't really know about the restrictions that were placed on the movement

17     of non-Serbs in ARK municipalities; right?

18        A.   I know what I wrote in the mobilisation order and the order

19     implementing the curfew.  And this was applied in Banja Luka to a

20     substantial degree.  I emphasise "to a substantial degree."  But I don't

21     know how that was implemented in other municipalities.  Probably it

22     should have been in the same way as it was implemented in Banja Luka, but

23     I cannot say that for sure.

24        Q.   So would it be fair to say, sir, that, again with the possible

25     exception of Banja Luka, you don't really know in any detail what kinds

Page 29240

 1     of restrictions were placed on the movement of non-Serbs in ARK

 2     municipalities?

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I heard the witness saying yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I also heard a "da."  You confirmed, Witness, that

 6     you don't really know in any detail, apart from Banja Luka, what kinds of

 7     restrictions were placed on the movement of non-Serbs in the ARK

 8     municipalities.  You confirmed that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Next in paragraph 67 of your statement, you state that it is

12     incorrect that the resettlement policy within the Bosnian Krajina was

13     co-ordinated at the regional level by the ARK Crisis Staff.  I have a

14     number of questions about this.  First, it's true that the ARK Crisis

15     Staff issued decisions on the rules governing people's departures from

16     the ARK; right?

17        A.   It's not a question.  You're asserting that that is so.  But it's

18     not a question.

19        Q.   I'm asking you if it's true.  Can you confirm that the ARK Crisis

20     Staff issued such decisions.

21        A.   First of all, I don't know all the decisions that were made and

22     that were signed.  I don't know who made the decisions, who signed them.

23     Perhaps somebody else signed them.

24             As for moving the population out, until the corridor was opened

25     there was no mass transfer of the population.

Page 29241

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please answer the question.  The question

 2     was whether the ARK Crisis Staff issued decisions on the rules governing

 3     people's departures from the ARK.  That was the question, not whether

 4     there were many, or little, or whether it was -- they were implemented,

 5     but just decisions being taken by the ARK Crisis Staff on this subject.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It did make some decisions, but I

 7     don't know which ones.  On that topic, yes, it did make some decisions.

 8             MR. TRALDI:  Well, let's have P3868.  This will be a decision by

 9     the ARK Crisis Staff dated the 28th of May, 1992.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that decision.

11             MR. TRALDI:  Sorry.  It's a list of conclusions by the ARK Crisis

12     Staff dated the 28th of May, 1992.  If we could have point 7 on page 2 in

13     both languages.

14        Q.   We read here:

15             "If Muslims and Croats or members of the SDA or HDZ wish to leave

16     or move out of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, they must enable the

17     endangered Serbian people, against whom unprecedented genocide is being

18     conducted, to move collectively into their places, i.e., they must

19     facilitate an exchange based on reciprocity."

20             So here, the ARK Crisis Staff is setting out rules governing

21     people's departures from the ARK; right.

22        A.   No, no.  This is some story that the SDA and the HDZ as parties

23     allow some of the population to pass through Konjic and the others to

24     come the other way.  I mean, this was during the blockade.  This is

25     somebody telling a story.  It's -- I cannot say what happened.  This is a

Page 29242

 1     decision relating to prohibition on exchange of foreign currency, so

 2     it's -- has to do with giving a permission for people to leave and then

 3     not allowing them to go back.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak into the

 5     microphone.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, Witness, could you speak into the

 7     microphone.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This item 7 is part of a - what is

 9     it? - a conclusion, something like that.  I don't see what the document

10     says, if it's a decision or a conclusion.  This point 7 talks about if

11     they want to leave, then the SDA and the HDZ should ensure or make it

12     possible.  But these are political parties.  They cannot do that.  They

13     cannot allow anybody to go or return.  All sorts of things were written

14     in these decisions, so somebody put this in a decision.

15             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have D423, page 3 in the English and page 2

16     in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   Now, this is a document again coming from the ARK Crisis Staff

18     and it's reporting that at a meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff on the 29th

19     of May, 1992, the following conclusions were reached.  And at point 1, it

20     says:

21             "It has been decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish,

22     should be able to move out of the area of the Autonomous Region of

23     Krajina, but on condition that also those Serbs who live outside the

24     Serbian Autonomous Districts and regions are allowed to move into the

25     territories of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

Page 29243

 1     Autonomous Region of Krajina.  In this manner, an exchange of population,

 2     or, more precisely, a resettlement of people from one part of the former

 3     SR BH to another would be carried out in an organised manner."

 4             We see essentially the same conclusion here as we did in the last

 5     document; right?

 6        A.   I haven't read it.  Can we go back a little bit, please.  No, I

 7     didn't receive it.

 8             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just an

 9     intervention.  We have been told that the part that has been put to the

10     witness actually is on the previous page in the B/C/S.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then let's have a look at the previous page.  In the

12     B/C/S.  So ...

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it now.  I've read it.

14             MR. TRALDI:

15        Q.   So we see here essentially the same conclusion as in the last

16     document; right?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes, the relationship is the same:  You can leave if our

18     people are allowed to come.

19        Q.   To come.  To move into the places that previously had been

20     inhabited by Muslims and Croats; right?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak into

22     the microphone.  We cannot hear him.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, could you speak into the microphone.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This only refers to this

25     possibility, if across the separation line, across the front line, the

Page 29244

 1     combat line, whatever, if it is ensured that ethnic Serbs can arrive who

 2     want to leave that territory, and they want that, they say that through

 3     the media and whatever, and they're asking someone to help them leave

 4     Konjic, Travnik, Sarajevo, wherever, and to leave that territory.  Just

 5     like Muslims and Croats cannot leave the territory of the AR Krajina

 6     because it's blocked.  Even if somebody said, You're supposed to leave,

 7     how could they leave?  It was simply impossible to do that at the time.

 8     It was only later in the summer that these organised exchanges started.

 9     At this moment, no.  So these decisions that were made do not really have

10     any effect -- or these conclusions or...

11             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have 65 ter 08264.

12        Q.   These are the minutes of the 24th Session of the

13     Petrovac Municipality Crisis Staff dated the 3rd of June, 1992.  Petrovac

14     was one of the municipalities in the ARK; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   We see here at point 1 a discussion of the conclusions of the

17     Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka.  We see at item

18     1 below that that a man named Bogdan Latinovic read the conclusions of

19     the AR Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, reached at the session held on

20     29.05.1992, and then the Crisis Staff of Petrovac municipality gave a

21     proposition for the ARK Crisis Staff's conclusions to be adopted in full

22     as follows.  At subpoint 1, we read:

23             "It has been decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish be

24     enabled to evacuate from the territory of Autonomous Region of Krajina

25     but only under the condition that the Serbs outside the Serbian

Page 29245

 1     Autonomous Regions also be allowed to evacuate to the territory of the

 2     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, the Autonomous

 3     Region of Krajina.  In this way, the organised exchange of population

 4     would be carried out, that is its evacuation from one part of the former

 5     Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the other."

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Turning to page 2, in the B/C/S as well now.

 7        Q.   We read at the bottom of the page in the English and the middle

 8     of the page in the B/C/S:

 9             "The Crisis Staff has decided to form a board for the

10     implementation of these conclusions, that is on the evacuation of Muslims

11     from the territory of Petrovac municipality."

12             So the Petrovac Crisis Staff thought that these conclusions, in

13     fact, had effect and that they were supposed to begin implementing them,

14     and that's what they did; right?

15        A.   Well, that's it.  That is what was invoked, that conclusion.

16             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I tender this document as the next

17     public Prosecution Exhibit.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 8264 receives number P6975,

20     Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Admitted into evidence.

22             MR. TRALDI:  I see it's time for the break, Mr. President.  I am

23     running a little bit behind schedule but I anticipate being done early in

24     the next session.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Early is a rather vague concept.

Page 29246

 1             MR. TRALDI:  It's been a little bit difficult to predict the

 2     duration.  I'd say certainly in the first half of the session and

 3     probably in the first quarter, but it depends to some extent on how the

 4     examination develops.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us an indication as

 6     to how much time you would need as matters stand now?

 7             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, Your Honour, I

 8     believe it would be up to 10 minutes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Then, Witness, before we take a break, two matters.  First, I

11     invited you to write down names and names of companies of those who

12     stayed within those companies.  Have you done so?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't write that.  I cannot

14     remember the exact names.  Juso, Yugo, Split, that is for customs duty on

15     goods.  Now, there's this one in the municipality I cannot remember.

16     There was this Muslim from Kotor Varos who was in my secretariat.  He was

17     a lot older than I am, but I simply cannot remember his name.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you remember names, please write them down.

19     If you don't remember names, of course you cannot write them down.

20     That's clear.  That's one.

21             Second, you may remember that before the last break we had some

22     questions about the decision of the 22nd of June, 1992, to be implemented

23     by the 26th of June, where you said that you were not relieved from your

24     duties, although you did not implement that order, and then we later

25     established that you had stayed in your position until the 15th of June.

Page 29247

 1             Now, just to clarify matters, when you said you stayed until the

 2     15th of June, I assumed - but please correct me when I'm wrong - that you

 3     were referring to the 15th of June, 1992.  Is that -- was that correctly

 4     understood?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, 15th of June.  15th of

 6     June, 1992.  But I remained in this function of the secretariat and ...

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yeah, okay.  Then we well understood that you were

 8     referring to 1992.

 9             You may follow the usher.  And we'll take a break of 20 minutes.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We resume at 20 minutes past midday.

12                           --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted

15     in the courtroom, I would like to briefly stay attention to Exhibit D314.

16             On the 14th of October of this year, the Defence indicated that

17     it wished to withdraw Exhibit D314 as it was satisfied with the content

18     of Exhibit P1640 in evidence.  The Chamber accepts this withdrawal and

19     hereby instructs the Registry to mark D314 as not admitted in e-court and

20     to include in the additional comments column a note that D314 was

21     withdrawn in light of P1640.

22                           [The witness takes the stand]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi.

24             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have Exhibit P2900, please.

25        Q.   This is a report from a Banja Luka CSB commission from

Page 29248

 1     August 1992.

 2             MR. TRALDI:  If we could have page 10 of the English and 13 in

 3     the B/C/S, please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't see the first

 5     page.

 6             MR. TRALDI:

 7        Q.   Sir, we're looking here at a portion of the report related to

 8     Bosanski Novi --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we should follow the instructions of

10     Mr. Traldi rather than spontaneously respond to what the witness said.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. TRALDI:

13        Q.   At the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and in the middle of the

14     page in the English, we read:

15             "Pursuant to the decision on the voluntary resettlement of

16     citizens of the government of the AR of Krajina and the order of the

17     Crisis Staff of the municipality of Bosanski Novi on the criteria for

18     voluntary resettlement, 5.680 persons with proper documents ..."

19             MR. TRALDI:  And I think we're turning to the next page in the

20     B/C/S.

21        Q.   "... left the municipality of Bosanski Novi on 23 July 1992 and

22     emigrated with the assistance of UNPROFOR and the High Commission for

23     Refugees to Croatia, Slovenia, and other countries of western Europe."

24             So, here, the Banja Luka CSB is concluding that the ARK Crisis

25     Staff 's decisions on resettlement were, in fact, implemented in Bosanski

Page 29249

 1     Novi; right?

 2        A.   First of all, it wasn't a decision.  It was a conclusion.

 3     Secondly, I cannot answer that question just like that.  This was done

 4     only in July.  I claim that it was impossible until the breakthrough of

 5     the police or perhaps -- corridor or maybe only with the police.  And if

 6     I'm not mistaken, May, June.  And it's the Executive Council of the

 7     government that is being invoked here, and that makes sense.

 8        Q.   I'm going to turn now --

 9             MR. TRALDI:  I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip which

10     has been uploaded as 65 ter 22682b, and it will be the second of two

11     clips under that number.  We'll have to play it twice.  It's a portion of

12     a rally.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And what about the first of the two clips,

14     will you separate it?

15             MR. TRALDI:  We'll seek -- the first is solely to place two

16     particular people there.  For efficiency, we'll seek to just speak to the

17     Defence about that.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then we'll hear from you.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, people's

21     deputy.

22             "Radoslav Brdjanin:  Brothers and sisters, dear people of

23     Krajina, and all other patriots who have come to this meeting, we must

24     not succumb to the greatest deceit, that we are voting for war or peace.

25     We are voting for the betrayal or rescues of Republika Srpska.  Those

Page 29250

 1     leftist forces which are offering us co-existence again must know that it

 2     is the obligation of Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet

 3     from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this land of ours.  Also

 4     it is not true that we do not know where our borders lie.  Our borders

 5     extend from Benkovac to Trebinje, our borders extend from the Hungarian

 6     border all the way to Sokolac, and I hope with the capital of Belgrade

 7     when we say that we are a national Serbian state ... we must tell the

 8     world that on Serbian land no one has the right to proclaim those were

 9     defeated as victors because this is the native land of Tsar Dusan,

10     Prince Lazar, Karadjordje, and the Serbian heros of today.  I urge you to

11     participate in the referendum in large numbers, because that referendum,

12     let me warn you, offers to us that we cede 20 populated places of which

13     13 are cities.  It offers to us that we return to Alija and Tudjman and

14     live with them.  And I suggest that we put up a barbed wire and say that

15     never gain will our enemies spread throughout Krajina and attack us for

16     the fifth or fourth time in this century.  The worst thing is that some

17     individuals have now remembered that war should not have been waged, as

18     we were the ones who imposed war.  Some have now remembered that NATO is

19     dangerous.  Do those gentlemen know that our lives, the lives of those of

20     us who are married and have children are several times cheaper than the

21     lives of the young men lying in their graves on their behalf?  Dammed be

22     the one who betrays Republika Srpska and the interests of the Serbian

23     people."

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

25             MR. LUKIC:  I'm sorry, if I can just draw your attention to one

Page 29251

 1     translation issue, I guess.  It's on page 52, line 21.  It was referred

 2     here in the translation --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  If it is anything which is relevant at this moment,

 4     then we would deal with it.  If --

 5             MR. LUKIC:  Maybe it can create a confusion.  I don't know.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  I'd ask that if the witness doesn't speak English,

 7     he be asked to remove his headphones.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Do you speak English, Mr. Sajic?  Mr. Sajic, do you speak

10     English?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You responded to my question when you had your

13     earphones off.  Do you understand any English?  Do you understand any

14     English or no English at all?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic.

17             MR. LUKIC:  This is nothing major.  Only here it was referred to

18     "Krajina."  And it should be "Krajina square."  So that's the only issue

19     I have with this translation.

20             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Where, Mr. Lukic?

21             MR. LUKIC:  It's 52, line 21.  It says:  "Spread throughout

22     Krajina."  And on B/C/S, Brdjanin said:  "Through Krajina square."

23             JUDGE ORIE:  And that being a square --

24             MR. LUKIC:  In Banja Luka.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  In Banja Luka.  That's your -- okay.

Page 29252

 1             Then I take it that that will not be the focus of your questions,

 2     Mr. Traldi.  But it will be verified.  Could I, while we are in -- I also

 3     saw a -- in the beginning I saw the text with the name of the speaker,

 4     Mr. Brdjanin, and then what his position was, and halfway there was

 5     another text on the screen which I had no time to read much but

 6     it's looked as direct --

 7             MR. LUKIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... direct stream.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Direct stream, yes.  I -- when I had deciphered

 9     "direct" then I didn't know what the rest was, which means that it was

10     broadcasted directly or at least?

11             MR. LUKIC:  That's what it says on this recording.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             MR. TRALDI:  That's my understanding, too.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

15             MR. TRALDI:

16        Q.   Sir, in the last image here, we see the top of the banner on the

17     right.  What we see is "cvi srbi," or "all Serbs," and what would be

18     below that if we could see it would read "in one state"; right?

19        A.   If I were to see it I could say yes, but what I see now is all

20     Serbs, "cvi srbi."

21        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin says here at the beginning of the video:

22             "It is the obligation of Serbs over the next 100 years to wipe

23     their feet from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of

24     ours."

25             This is one of the derogatory public speeches that Mr. Brdjanin

Page 29253

 1     made that we discussed earlier in your testimony; right?

 2        A.   I don't know when this speech was made.  That I did not see.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  That wasn't the question.  It was not when but

 4     whether this is a derogatory speech of the kind Mr. Brdjanin made.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the contents of the

 6     speech as saying that we need to come to our senses.  I don't even know

 7     what the vote was about, so I cannot comment on it.  Why the referendum?

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please focus on the line that was brought

 9     to your attention:

10             "It's the obligation of Serbs over the next 100 years to wipe

11     their feet from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of

12     ours."

13             That is what Mr. Traldi was drawing your attention to when he

14     asked you whether this was a derogatory public speech as Mr. Brdjanin

15     made.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see.  From the context he's

17     not denying.  He's just saying if you don't win, you will be cleaning the

18     shoes of those who did such and such a thing in World War II to us.  I

19     mean, it's a bit nationalist.  These are meetings, rallies that were held

20     frequently in our part of the world.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.

22             MR. TRALDI:

23        Q.   I'm going to test your evidence a little bit on that.  When he

24     refers to foul non-Christians.  Calling them "foul," that's derogatory;

25     right?

Page 29254

 1        A.   For us it is, yes.

 2        Q.   And when he suggests that their presence has befouled the soil of

 3     Republika Srpska.  That's derogatory too; right?

 4        A.   These are authorities that he is talking about, not the people.

 5     Somebody wins power, and then you have Sarajevo, Izetbegovic, and so on.

 6     He meant the authorities, those in power, not the people.

 7        Q.   He says the foul non-Christians, not the foul SDA members, the

 8     foul HDZ members, the foul members of the Patriotic League.  He says the

 9     foul non-Christians.  That means everybody; right?

10        A.   I don't know when the speech was given.  It would be easier for

11     me if I knew that.

12        Q.   Our records indicate 1994.

13        A.   These are still war time speeches.  It wasn't just one sentence

14     that he spoke.  It's a speech.

15        Q.   In another sentence in the speech, he suggests that the Serbs

16     "put up a barbed wire and say that never again will our enemies spread."

17     Putting up a barbed wire means keeping out the people who had left the

18     area; right?

19        A.   No.  We're not putting up the barbed wire.  He's referring to

20     barbed wire as some sort of something.  You could just understand it as a

21     concept, as a comparison.  I mean, where would you put up barbed wire in

22     the Krajina square?  I mean, this was in the centre of Banja Luka.  You

23     cannot put barbed wire up in the Krajina square in the centre of

24     Banja Luka.

25        Q.   Right.  It's a concept a comparison, a metaphor?

Page 29255

 1        A.   Metaphor, that's right.

 2        Q.   Barbed wire, he is using it as a metaphor because barbed wire is

 3     something that you use to keep people out; right?

 4        A.   It depends.  I mean, somebody uses electricity, barbed wire is a

 5     concept involving Jasenovac.

 6             JUDGE MOLOTO:  Could we get interpretation Jasenovac, please.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it is not a matter of interpretation but

 8     rather a reference to a historical event.

 9             Could you clarify with the witness.

10             MR. TRALDI:

11        Q.   Sir, when you say Jasenovac, you're referring to a camp where

12     Serbs were held, many killed, during the Second World War; right?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   And barbed wire at that camp would have been used to restrict

15     people's movement; right?  In that case, to stop them from going out.

16        A.   What I'm saying is that the mention of barbed wire would make

17     us to remember Jasenovac.  I'm not saying that that was that comparison.

18     I mean, the same thing would happen if you mentioned the river Sava,

19     something like that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, let's try to keep matters a bit shorter.

21             The reference to barbed wire and enemies never spread again, is

22     that a reference to enemies not to return where Serbs are living at that

23     moment?  In your understanding.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have listened to

25     this footage twice.  It's the first time and the second time he is

Page 29256

 1     referring to the Krajina square and barbed wire, and he probably is

 2     referring to that kind of rule never returning to Banja Luka again.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  What rule do you mean?  My question was simple, not

 4     for you to explain what you heard but whether the reference to the barbed

 5     wire and the enemies never spread again, and I on purpose left out where,

 6     not exactly, whether that's a reference to enemies that should not return

 7     where Serbs are living.  Is that your understanding of it or is it not?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that this was the

 9     Krajina square that they were talking about and that it should not return

10     there.  As for the rest, I'm not quite sure I understand.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just -- you said it was a metaphor.  Are you

12     really telling us that you believe that it was all to keep the enemies

13     out of that specific square, wherever they could -- they could move in

14     the streets around, they could move in the villages, they could move in

15     everywhere apart from that square?  Is that your understanding?  Then

16     please tell us so that we can ...

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He mentioned the Krajina square.

18     It's not clear to me what he was actually saying in that speech.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, the Chamber would not mind if you move

20     on.

21             MR. TRALDI:  I would ask that the video before marked for

22     identification before I do.  We'll speak with the Defence about the first

23     clip.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then Madam Registrar still would like to have the

25     CD, I take it.

Page 29257

 1             Madam Registrar, the number would be.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 22682b receives number P6976,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Marked for identification.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. TRALDI:  Could we have to P2875.

 7        Q.   This document comes from the 1st Krajina Corps command.  It's

 8     dated the 1st of June, 1992.  Directing your attention to the end of the

 9     third paragraph, we read:

10             "A portion of the Muslim and Croatian population, is moving out

11     and the region of Bosnian Krajina has issued a decision to facilitate

12     such departures providing that the Serbs from Central Bosnia and places

13     with predominantly Muslim and Croatian populations were also allowed to

14     move out.  Those departing will not be allowed to return."

15             Now this is describing the conclusions that we just saw from the

16     29th of May ARK Crisis Staff meeting that we looked at last session;

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And the description that those departing will not be allowed to

20     return, that's consistent with Mr. Brdjanin's speech about not letting

21     enemies come back; right?

22        A.   I cannot answer that question.  You're linking the speech and

23     this document here, and they have nothing to do with each other.  Vukic

24     was writing about this, and nobody was moving out.  Brdja was speaking in

25     1994, whereas the document talks about 1992.  In my opinion, these two

Page 29258

 1     things are not related at all.

 2        Q.   Well, first you say nobody was moving out.  The document reports,

 3     in fact, that a portion of the Muslim and Croatian population is moving

 4     out.  That's true what Colonel Vukelic has written there, right?

 5        A.   It's not true.  It wasn't so.  Vukelic was Talic's assistant for

 6     morale and he was submitting a report, information, in which he was

 7     saying that people were moving out, but he didn't know it.  Nobody could

 8     move out.  You can see that this was the 1st of June and on the 28th the

 9     corridor was broken through.  I mean, it's just information.  The

10     document needs to be reliable.

11        Q.   It's clear from this that the information that the

12     1st Krajina Corps had was that people were moving out; right?

13        A.   He's writing this information but it's not actually there.  He is

14     writing it, sending it to his commander, and they both live in Banja Luka

15     and they're aware that there is no mass departure.  The 1st of June, this

16     is the time that I'm speaking about, and it's quite another thing what

17     Brdja was talking about in 1994.

18        Q.   Well, let's focus on the last sentence:  "Those departing will

19     not be allowed to return."  The rationale behind that was to allow Serbs

20     to move in; right?

21        A.   I didn't understand.  Let me hear it again, please.

22        Q.   The rationale behind not allowing those Muslims and Croats to

23     return was to allow Serbs to move into their places; right?

24        A.   I don't see that.  I know of the following:  Serbs were not

25     allowed to come back as deserters.  I don't know that this had to do with

Page 29259

 1     Muslims.  I don't see that anywhere here.  Serbs who were leaving who did

 2     not want to defend their hearths, that's what it was referring.  Some

 3     other people were being killed in their stead.  As for Muslims and

 4     Croats, I don't know that that refers to them in this document.  Perhaps

 5     there was some talk about that, but that is not what this document is

 6     about.  I deny that.

 7        Q.   Sir, again, you haven't answered the question I asked you.  But

 8     let's cut this short.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Can we have 65 ter 31672, page 25, please.

10        Q.   This will be another portion of your Brdjanin testimony.  I'm

11     going to start with what you're asked at the bottom of the page at line

12     22.  You were asked:

13             "In the sense that Bosnian Muslims and Croats who leave will not

14     be allowed to return, period, and you're saying the rational behind that

15     is to allow Serbs to move in; right?"

16             And you respond:

17             "It is linked up in the text.  In the statements, it is all

18     linked up.  Yes."

19             Do you stand behind this portion of your Brdjanin testimony as

20     truthful and accurate?

21        A.   Yes, it has to do with accommodating the Serbs who were thrown

22     out from Slavonia and other areas.  As for the corridor and this

23     information, that has nothing to do with that.  And I must emphasise,

24     this information was not given to me like this in its entirety.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Traldi, we are at this moment listening for a

Page 29260

 1     long time now already to the interpretation of this witness of all kind

 2     of documents, and it seems that his interpretation is different from what

 3     the -- what the Prosecution is seeking to establish.

 4             The Chamber finally will evaluate the entirety of the evidence

 5     and it's clear that the witness interprets these materials differently

 6     from the Prosecution.

 7             MR. TRALDI:  Yes.  Your Honour, I do have one more question and

 8     it's on the previous page, but what I've been seeking to establish with

 9     this excerpt is that the witness is interpreting this document

10     differently than he has done before in the sworn testimony.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we have seen that more than once today as well.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. TRALDI:  And could we have page 25 of this document back.

14        Q.   Now, we talked earlier about one of the strategic goals of the

15     Bosnian Serbs being not to be in the same state as Muslims and Croats.

16     You were asked about the relationship between these decisions and that

17     strategic goal here.  Judge Agius asked you:

18             "The question is doesn't it make sense that the decision in

19     Bosnian Krajina that Muslims and Croats who leave are not going to be

20     allowed to return because strategic goal number 1 is not to be in the

21     same state as Muslims and Croats?  That's the question.

22             "In other words, you are being asked to confirm that the decision

23     of the ARK Crisis Staff that those who leave will not be allowed to

24     return fits in the first strategic point mentioned or outlined by

25     Krajisnik according to that report."

Page 29261

 1             And you answered:

 2             "To leave room from those who will be coming from elsewhere, the

 3     Serbs coming from other parts.  In that sense, yes."

 4             Do you stand today behind your testimony in the Brdjanin case

 5     under oath that the ARK Crisis Staff's decision, that Muslims and Croats

 6     who left the ARK would not be allowed to return, was part of the first

 7     strategic goal set out at the 16th Assembly?

 8        A.   I stand by the statement I gave in the Brdjo case, I'm leaving

 9     that possibility open, and I'm not saying something else today.  As for

10     the strategic goals of cleansing the territory and changing borders so

11     that they would include ethnic holes is not my interpretation of it.  I'm

12     not changing my statement, though.

13        Q.   I'd put to you that in that case you said in that sense, yes,

14     this did fit in first strategic point.  Today you're saying, I'm leaving

15     the possibility open but ... and then a long list of other things.  I'd

16     put to you that you are, in fact, changing your testimony about this.

17     That's true, isn't it?

18        A.   I don't know exactly about this formulation that you put to me,

19     the strategic goals.  I understood it differently, so I am having

20     problems about that.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the last part

22     of his sentence.

23             MR. TRALDI:

24        Q.   Sir, could you please repeat the last part of your sentence.

25        A.   I said that I stand by the statement that I gave.  I don't see

Page 29262

 1     any difference there.  We're just interpreting it differently, the

 2     Prosecutor and myself.  I don't see that one of the goals was ethnic

 3     cleansing, but, rather, the strategic goal of ethnic communities.

 4             And as for Muslims and Croats who were moving out and leaving

 5     some areas free, it's logical that those areas would be filled by those

 6     Serbs arriving from Slavonia and other places.  You couldn't leave them

 7     empty.  They moved into Serb areas over there and then in turn the Serbs

 8     moved into theirs, and that would be that.

 9             MR. TRALDI:  Your Honours, I have no further questions for this

10     witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Traldi.

12             Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?

13             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a few questions,

14     Your Honour.

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sajic, I know you're tired.  If you permit

17     me, I will just put a couple of questions to.  I will try to be as direct

18     and as brief as possible.  Do you remember when you were asked about the

19     conversation between Karadzic and Cizmovic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   My question is:  Do you know what post was occupied by the person

22     who participated in that conversation as indicated?  His name was

23     Jovan Cizmovic.

24        A.   Jovan Cizmovic, from a well-known family of attorneys, at the

25     time was some judge or something, an attorney.  In any case, he was in

Page 29263

 1     the legal business.  I don't know that he ever held any political or

 2     executive position in the area of Banja Luka.  He did not perform any

 3     such duty.  Perhaps he was in the SDS.  Let's put it that way.  Some sort

 4     of commissioner of a republican board or below Karadzic.  But in any

 5     event, he did not have any official post.  This is as far as Cizmovic is

 6     concerned.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know if that man at any point in time in

 8     1992 was a member of the Banja Luka Municipality Crisis Staff or the ARK

 9     Krajina Crisis Staff?

10        A.   No, never.  During that period, he was not in either body.  He

11     communicated with Pale, actually, but in the town he was not a

12     significant figure.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know -- actually, I don't want it to be a

14     leading question so I will put the question to you in the following way.

15     At any point in time, were there any party Crisis Staffs?

16        A.   There were party Crisis Staffs.  As far as I know, yes, there

17     were.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19        A.   Each of the parties.  Each of the three parties.

20        Q.   And touching upon questions that had to do with people who worked

21     with you in the TO, and you mentioned their names as people who were

22     non-Serbs but still remained at their posts.  Could you please tell the

23     Trial Chamber how after the 15th of June the TO changed?

24        A.   The Territorial Defence in a broader area, but I will speak about

25     Banja Luka because I was in charge there, before the 15th of June was

Page 29264

 1     made up of a series of units ranging from squads to companies, and then

 2     the Territorial Defence was supposed to restructure its units according

 3     to some structure into four light infantry brigades, and these brigades

 4     were then -- came under the command of the Krajina Corps.  And there was

 5     a special staff that was in charge of those brigades.  So each

 6     municipality formed a light brigade.  People who worked in the TO Staffs

 7     stayed in each of these brigades.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you now to tell us about the people whose names

 9     you mentioned, these three colleagues of yours who were not of Serb

10     ethnicity.  After the 22nd June 1992, these people remained at their

11     posts?

12        A.   Yes, they did.  Some of them stayed at these posts until the end

13     of the war even, and they live in Banja Luka to this day.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to finish with one more topic.  At any

15     point in time at meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff, was the -- there any

16     discussion of attempts to prevent the forcible transfer of population

17     from the Krajina area?

18        A.   I didn't understand your question.

19        Q.   The ARK Krajina Crisis Staff, did it ever discuss possible

20     attempts to prevent the population from moving out under pressure.

21        A.   I know that forcible moving out was prohibited.  I know that.  It

22     was discussed, and I don't think that anything like that occurred while I

23     was in Banja Luka.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D423.

Page 29265

 1        Q.   It's a conclusion that you had the opportunity to see in your

 2     cross-examination.  We're going to be looking at page 3.

 3        A.   This is page 2.

 4        Q.   Let's just wait, Mr. Sajic, so you can have some context so that

 5     you can see that it's a document that you already looked at.

 6             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the following

 7     page in the B/C/S.

 8        Q.   You already commented this document.  Could you please now look

 9     at paragraph 2 of these conclusions, which states:

10             "The Crisis Staff has decided to resolutely oppose all attempts

11     to move the population out by force or any other form of pressure and to

12     prevent any such attempts with all means available under the law."

13             Is this conclusion what you have just told us about as something

14     that was discussed at the Crisis Staff?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Mr. Sajic, thank you very much.  The Defence of General Mladic

17     has no further questions for you.  Thank you very much for your

18     testimony.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

20             No further questions from the Prosecution.

21                           Questioned by the Court:

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You told us -- I have one further question.

23             You told about Zoran Kolak.  Could you give us the details of

24     what happened to him?  What functions he was doing; where he's living

25     now?

Page 29266

 1        A.   Zoran Kolak was a member of my Territorial Defence Staff.  It

 2     was -- he was in charge of security of buildings.  That is a very

 3     important job because that was security for public facilities, bridges,

 4     et cetera.  He is a Croat, an ethnic Croat, and he has two children, and

 5     his family was a well-known family, Kolak from the Second World War, the

 6     partisans, and he remained on the Territorial Defence staff throughout

 7     while I was there, that is.  I think that he stayed and then he went to

 8     the 1st Light Brigade, I think.  And after that I think he left

 9     Banja Luka and I don't really know where he is right now.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, you told us several times that what you

11     think.  You said he stayed with you until you left, that is, the 15th of

12     June?

13        A.   That's right.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you said he then went to the light

15     infantry brigade you think.  Do you know that for sure?  You know that

16     for certain?

17        A.   That's right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know -- yes, please.  Are you sure?

19        A.   I cannot remember but I know that right now he is not in

20     Banja Luka.  But when he comes, he calls.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And you say he is not in Banja -- you do not know

22     for sure whether he went to this light infantry brigade?

23        A.   I can't remember.  I think he did.  I think he belonged to that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but you don't remember.  You do remember now

25     that he is not living in Banja Luka any further.  Is that ...

Page 29267

 1        A.   Well, I don't see him.  He's not there.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So in effect you are telling us you don't know

 3     for sure, you don't even remember when he went to the light infantry

 4     brigade, and you do not know for sure whether he stayed because you don't

 5     see him in Banja Luka, so therefore he may not be in Banja Luka any

 6     further.  That's your evidence?

 7        A.   Your Honour, just a second.  Zdenko Uvalic, a Croat, went to the

 8     2nd Light Brigade and Kolak went to the 1st Light Brigade.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness --

10        A.   Now I --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So now you do remember.  He went to the

12     1st Light Infantry Brigade?

13        A.   He went but I don't know how he -- how long he stayed.  That I

14     don't know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you don't -- actually, you don't know

16     actually what happened with them, at least with Mr. Kolak.

17        A.   I know about Uvalic, but I know that Kolak lives abroad.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Witness, I'm asking you about Kolak and you tell me

19     that you have no firm knowledge about what happened to him and that he is

20     now living abroad.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  No further questions.

23             Then, Mr. Sajic, this concludes your testimony.  I'd like to

24     thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the

25     questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by

Page 29268

 1     the Bench.  You're excused and I wish you a safe return home again.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stojanovic, I establish that you did not do

 5     anything with the incorrect or the different formulations in the

 6     adjudicated facts, so apparently no -- until now, no adequate measures

 7     are taken in this respect.

 8             Is the Defence ready to call its next witness once we have taken

 9     a break?

10             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll take a break and we'll resume at 25

12     minutes to 2.00.

13                           --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, not yet.

16             I'd first like to use the opportunity to briefly deliver a

17     statement by the Chamber.  It is the Chamber will briefly address the

18     Defence submissions on the Chamber's time management guidance.  It takes

19     us back to the 25th of August of this year when the Defence made several

20     submissions essentially objecting to the time management guidance

21     delivered by the Chamber on 24th of July.

22             After having carefully reviewing the submissions, it appears to

23     the Chamber that the Defence has misunderstood the guidance offered and

24     finds the Defence submissions in this respect to be without merit.

25             Although the Chamber considers this to be very unfortunate, it

Page 29269

 1     sees no value in repeating or attempting to further clarify that which it

 2     has already made abundantly clear time and time again.  In this respect,

 3     the Chamber encourages the Defence to revisit and carefully consider the

 4     Chamber's guidance as well as the full record of these proceedings before

 5     it jumps to any conclusions that the Chamber is somehow changing the

 6     rules concerning the production of evidence.

 7             Madam Registrar, you can already go and find the witness.

 8             Lastly -- yes, the usher.  Yes.

 9             Lastly, the Chamber finds the Defence submissions concerning the

10     investigation of witnesses and members of the Defence team difficult to

11     understand.  Accordingly, should the Defence intend to pursue these

12     matters, it is instructed to file a motion clearly describing the

13     relevant issues and explicitly stating the relief sought.

14             And this concludes the Chamber's submissions on this matter.

15             We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.

16             Mr. Lukic, I see it's you who will examine the witness, the

17     witness being Mr. Krsic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Krsic.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  May I invite to you make the solemn declaration, of

23     which the text is now handed out to you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 29270

 1                           WITNESS:  VOJISLAV KRSIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 4             Mr. Krsic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic.  You'll find

 5     him to your left.  Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.

 6             Please proceed.

 7             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Lukic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Krsic.

10        A.   Good day.

11        Q.   I will pause a bit after your answers so that the interpreters

12     could finish interpreting.  It's not that I'm not satisfied with your

13     answers.  I just need to wait for the interpretation.

14             Could you please just state your name and surname for the record.

15        A.   I am Vojislav Krsic.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honour, did you want to say something?  No?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  No.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Your microphone is on so I thought --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's usually Judge Fluegge reminds me that I

20     should switch it off.  But you are taking over his task, I hear.  Thank

21     you very much for that.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm very grateful, Mr. Lukic.

23             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have to take some of your

24     chores, since you are taking many of mine.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krsic, have you provided a statement to the

Page 29271

 1     members of General Mladic's Defence team?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. LUKIC:  Can we have 1D1684 on our screens, please.

 4             And with the assistance of the usher, I would like to provide

 5     this witness with the witness statement as well and -- first to be shown

 6     to the Prosecution.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thanks.

 8             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So, Mr. Krsic, you now have a hard copy, but you can also see a

10     document on the screen.  Can you recognise the signature on the first

11     page of this document?

12        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

13             MR. LUKIC:  Can we see the last page of this document, please.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] On the last page, can you recognise the

15     signature?

16        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

17        Q.   Let me not ask you page by page.  What is contained on every

18     page, at the bottom of every page?

19        A.   Yes, on every page you can see my signature, my original

20     signature.

21        Q.   Mr. Krsic, what is recorded in this statement, has it been

22     recorded correctly in relation to what you had said to the members of

23     General Mladic's Defence team?

24        A.   Yes.  This statement records what I said to the Defence team.

25        Q.   What is written in this statement, is it truthful and correct?

Page 29272

 1        A.   What is written in this statement is truthful and correct, to the

 2     best of my recollection.

 3        Q.   Mr. Krsic, if I were to put the same questions to you today,

 4     would you give us basically the same answers?

 5        A.   Yes, I would provide the same answers basically.

 6             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, we would tender this statement into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Lukic, I think we were provided with a

 9     information note with --

10             MR. LUKIC:  My apologies.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- at least two corrections.

12             MR. LUKIC:  That's actually --  yeah.  Paragraph 4, you are

13     right.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.

15             MR. LUKIC:  You are returning a favour.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm happy to do that.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.

18             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Can we have paragraph 4 on

19     our screens, please.  It's on page 2.  Although I put it in front of me,

20     I forgot to deal with this.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krsic --

22        A.   Yes --

23        Q.   -- you drew my attention to something; namely, that in

24     paragraph 4, you omitted to mention one of the platoons.  Do you remember

25     which platoon that would be, the one that you omitted to mention?

Page 29273

 1        A.   Yes, I forgot to mention yet another platoon that was within our

 2     brigade.  That is the independent anti-sabotage platoon, and it also has

 3     an abbreviation in B/C/S.

 4        Q.   All right.  So in the battalion, there were how many companies

 5     and how many platoons when you arrived?

 6        A.   I'd like to correct you here.  It's not battalions.  It is the

 7     light infantry brigade.

 8        Q.   Sorry.

 9        A.   In the light infantry brigade, there were seven companies and

10     there were these independent platoons, the ones that are mentioned here

11     plus the one that I referred to just now.  That is what I found there

12     when I arrived in the brigade.  Later on we established yet another

13     platoon, but that is sometime in October.  Actually, this was the reserve

14     of the brigade and we usually called it the intervention platoon.

15             What is referred to here in the statement is the situation that I

16     found there when I arrived to join the light infantry brigade.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now with your assistance and with the assistance of

18     Judge Fluegge, after this correction I have to ask you yet again whether

19     this statement is truthful and correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. LUKIC:  Now we would move to offer this statement into

22     evidence.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1684 receives number D844,

25     Your Honours.

Page 29274

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D844 is admitted.

 2             MR. LUKIC:  Your Honours, I asked for extra time for leading this

 3     witness and I -- it's less than hour.  It's 55 minutes I asked for.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's a little bit more than the usual 30

 5     minutes.  You know that there's a balance for the whole of the

 6     presentation of the Defence case, but there's no objection against -- did

 7     you say 45 or 55?

 8             MR. LUKIC:  Fifty five.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Fifty five, yes.  The Chamber, as always, will

10     closely monitor how you use your time but does not object against using

11     more time.

12             MR. LUKIC:  I would -- thank you, Your Honour.  I would first

13     read statement summary of Mr. Krsic and then I would pose my questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you.

16             Vojislav Krsic was a professional soldier at the Zagreb garrison

17     until 15th of September, 1991, when he left the JNA with the rank of

18     captain.  He came to Kotor Varos in July 1992.  And on 28th of August,

19     1992, he joined the 1st Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade.  He was

20     engaged as the assistant to the Chief of Staff for operations and

21     instruction matters.  He will speak about the composition of the brigade.

22             Vojislav Krsic will testify about Grabovica, where he was present

23     in person about the beginning of the incident and the persons present

24     there, about the accommodation of Muslim men, soldiers, women, and

25     children at the elementary school building in Grabovica, about the

Page 29275

 1     gathering of inhabitants of Grabovica, mainly women in mourning attire.

 2             He will speak about the security at the school on the first

 3     evening and the stay of the Muslims there, including the tasks he

 4     personally issued to the security.  He witnessed the arrival of buses,

 5     the boarding of women and children, and their departure from Grabovica.

 6     He will provide details about the beginning of the incident, the first

 7     murder of a Muslim, in which no military personnel were involved.

 8             He will also testify that the then-commander of the brigade sent

 9     him to the brigade command post at Kotor Varos, and subsequently he was

10     given other tasks, whereby he was moved away from Grabovica and from

11     further developments in the village.

12             Vojislav Krsic will also testify that not a single shell that had

13     been fired under his command was directed against civilian targets.

14             He will testify that it was never said that the area in which his

15     unit was located should be ethnically cleansed, let alone attempted to

16     implement such a thing in practice.

17             And Mr. Krsic testifies that his brigade was of multi-ethnic

18     composition.

19             That would be statement summary and now I have several questions

20     for this witness.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. LUKIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             If we can have paragraph 6 of Mr. Krsic's statement.  It's on the

24     next page in both versions.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Krsic, you do see a paragraph 6 before you,

Page 29276

 1     don't you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   The first sentence in this paragraph says:

 4             "At the time I joined the brigade, it was completely

 5     disorganised."

 6             I'd like to ask you something in relation to this.  This

 7     statement refers to which period?  What would you say?

 8        A.   This statement refers to the period from the very establishment

 9     of the brigade until, say, November.  It could be put that way.  However,

10     we made significant efforts in that direction, say, in the month of

11     October and November.

12        Q.   Could you briefly tell us now why you believe that the brigade

13     was disorganised.

14        A.   As regards military units, the word "organisational establishment

15     structure" is used.  So it is this concept that is used in all armies in

16     the world, including our army.  So the first word, "structure," means

17     that it has its command, its staff units, its combat units, logistics

18     units or unit, and so on.

19             The second part of this composite phrase, "establishment," means

20     that there is something to be said for each and every one of these

21     elements.  As regards specialty, as regards type of military weapons and

22     so on.  So that unit, as a whole, is able to function on that basis.

23             When I arrived in the Kotor Varos Brigade, that requirement, as

24     far as organisational establishment structure is concerned, had not been

25     met.  First of all, that brigade did not have a developed command of its

Page 29277

 1     own.  That ask one element.  Secondly, the units that were organisational

 2     elements of that brigade, from an organisational establishment point of

 3     view, did not have the necessary personnel.  I'm just going to mention

 4     something by way of illustration, say, the pioneer platoon that was one

 5     of the elements of the organisational establishment structure.  The

 6     pioneer platoon is an engineering unit or, rather, a unit that is

 7     supposed to be manned by persons who have engineering as their VES.

 8     However, the 35 men we had on that platoon included only five persons

 9     that met that requirement.  Thirty men did not have that military

10     speciality at all; engineering, that is.

11             So that is what I would have to say about the organisational

12     establishment structure, namely, that this brigade was not organised

13     according to these rules as otherwise required by the former JNA and

14     military rules in general.

15        Q.   You've already mentioned to us the intervention platoon that was

16     established later.  Why is it important and what was it that wasn't

17     organised there before it had been established, that is?

18        A.   When I arrived in the brigade, there was no reserve in this

19     brigade.  Otherwise, a basic rule as far as combat disposition and combat

20     readiness of units of is concerned, everyone should have a reserve.  If

21     there's a crisis possibly in some part of the combat disposition, then

22     that reserve can be used, or rather in that way such a weakness can be

23     eliminated.

24        Q.   Another segment of this same question:  The command of the

25     1st Krajina Corps, what was its attitude towards the

Page 29278

 1     1st Kotor Varos Brigade?

 2        A.   As far as the Kotor Varos Brigade is concerned, the following

 3     facts should be pointed out:  The Kotor Varos Brigade was one of the most

 4     recent units established in the 1st Krajina Corps.  That is one fact.

 5     Another important fact is something I've already mentioned; that is to

 6     say, organisationally or logistically it was not provided for, and that

 7     was necessary in order to have it carry out its tasks properly and fully.

 8        Q.   Just a moment, please.  Who was appointed commander and how did

 9     the command function of the 1st Kotor Varos Brigade?

10        A.   With the order of the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, I don't

11     remember the date but I think that was the 11th of June, 1992.  The

12     Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade was to be formed, and the order

13     specified that Slobodan Zupljanin should be the commander of the brigade.

14     However, Slobodan Zupljanin was never in the Kotor Varos Brigade and he

15     was never actually the commander of that brigade.

16             In the initial period the brigade did not even have a commander.

17     I came to Kotor Varos sometime on the 22nd of July, and from the 22nd of

18     July until early August sometime, I contacted the Kotor Varos Brigade

19     command, and only Mane Tepic was there with a couple of officers, but he

20     was not in the commander in the true sense of having been appointed to

21     that duty.  He was just co-ordinating all the tasks and carrying out the

22     co-ordination among the two units in the field.

23             The brigade at the time did not have its commander.  It was only

24     later in agreement with the Kotor Varos War Presidency and the

25     22nd Infantry Brigade and probably in consultation with the command of

Page 29279

 1     the 1st Krajina Corps, the commander of the brigade was Dusan Novakovic,

 2     lieutenant-colonel.  When I came to the brigade on the 22nd of August, I

 3     had a meeting.  I met commander, Dusan Novakovic there.  He received me

 4     and he assigned me to the post of assistance chief for operations and

 5     training.

 6             As for the relationship between the Kotor Varos Brigade and the

 7     1st Krajina Corps command - in fact, the Kotor Varos Brigade in that

 8     sense was like an orphan because during that period it was not actually

 9     in the system and in the command and control system by the corps command,

10     particularly not from the logistical aspect.  The Kotor Varos Brigade

11     logistics, for the most part, was entrusted to the Kotor Varos

12     municipality and the Presidency.  So the actual relationship between the

13     1st Krajina Corps and the light infantry brigade actually began in late

14     November or December 1992 onwards.

15        Q.   I would like to ask you now about the communications system in

16     the Kotor Varos Brigade and what was the communications system with the

17     1st Krajina Corps command, let's say, from the time you arrived until

18     December.

19        A.   As far as the communications system is concerned, first of all I

20     have to say that within the brigade we had considerable problems.  The

21     combat disposition of the units of the Kotor Varos Brigade was quite

22     spread out.  They were located in local communes which were quite far

23     from the command post, which was located in Kotor Varos.  So in this

24     initial period, the brigade only had a few older devices, RUK1, RUK1B,

25     which were practically outdated, especially in former JNA units.  So we

Page 29280

 1     didn't have very strong links between the command and the subordinate

 2     units.  This is one side of this whole issue.

 3        Q.   Which command and which subordinate units?

 4        A.   Between the command of the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade and

 5     its organisational units; i.e., the light infantry companies which were

 6     deployed predominantly in the areas of the local communes.

 7             And for the second part of the question that has to do with the

 8     relationship or the communications between the light infantry brigade

 9     command and the corps command:  Until November we practically didn't have

10     a proper link between the two commands.  It was only later when I became

11     the Chief of Staff I put in a lot of effort to set up proper

12     communications so then later we had both land-lines and telegraph

13     communications.

14        Q.   Could you please tell us briefly how did you manage the problem

15     of the shortage of communication means.

16        A.   When we're talking about the problem of communications and the

17     way we resolved it, we didn't receive the devices from the logistics

18     base, which was quite normal, from the 1st Krajina Corps command.  We

19     used some other private channels to obtain these devices from the

20     2nd Krajina Corps.  That was when we received more modern devices, RUP12

21     for example, which was a standard communications device in the JNA at the

22     time.

23        Q.   And when was this?

24        A.   This was already when our logistics needs and communications with

25     the 2nd Krajina Corps started in October and then it went on after that.

Page 29281

 1        Q.   And did you receive orders and did you send combat reports to the

 2     command of the 1 Krajina Corps and did you receive anything back from

 3     them?

 4        A.   As for the first part, I am speaking about the point in time when

 5     I became the Chief of Staff of the brigade, we did not receive orders

 6     directly from the 1st Krajina Corps command.  The orders that we received

 7     usually came via the command of the 22nd Infantry Brigade.  I assume that

 8     one of the reasons for that was due to the communications system, such as

 9     it was, and the way I have already described.

10             So for the most part, the light infantry brigade did not always

11     send reports directly to the 1st Krajina Corps command, combat reports or

12     new other types of reports.  Sometimes we would send it through the

13     command of the 22nd Infantry Brigade.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.

15             Mr. Krsic, we'll adjourn for the day.  We'd like to see you back

16     tomorrow morning at 9.30.  But before you leave this courtroom, I'd like

17     to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way,

18     with whomever, about your testimony, whether that's testimony given today

19     or it's testimony still to be given tomorrow.  You may follow the usher.

20                           [The witness stands down]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,

22     Thursday, the 4th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same

23     courtroom, I.

24                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of

Page 29282

 1                           December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.