1 Wednesday, 3 December 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case
9 IT-09-92-T, the Prosecutor versus Ratko Mladic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Traldi, we were informed that you had a matter -- a
12 preliminary matter.
13 MR. TRALDI: Just very briefly, Your Honours. I'll be using one
14 document this morning that wasn't on the list for the witness. I had
15 listed 65 ter 20414, it's an intercept. In checking our records last
16 night, I realised that the transcripts are in evidence as P6904 and
17 Mr. Stojanovic and I have agreed that we'll use the version that's
18 already in evidence rather than duplicating.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 [The witness takes the stand]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That is hereby on the record.
22 Good morning, Mr. Sajic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Good morning,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Sajic, before we continue I'd like to remind you
1 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
2 beginning of your testimony.
3 Mr. Traldi will now continue his cross-examination.
4 Mr. Traldi, you may proceed.
5 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 WITNESS: MILORAD SAJIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Traldi: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, sir.
10 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.
11 Q. Sir, in paragraph 14 of your statement --
12 MR. TRALDI: Now Exhibit D836.
13 Q. -- you say:
14 "In April 1992, I became the secretary of the ARK Secretariat for
15 National Defence."
16 You were appointed to that position by the ARK Assembly; right?
17 A. End of April, yes.
18 Q. And you say in paragraph 16 of D836 that part of your job as
19 secretary of the secretariat was to be a link between the
20 Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence and the municipal secretariats. I
21 want to ask you just a couple of questions about what that meant.
22 First, being a link meant transmitting communications and orders
23 from the Ministry of Defence to the municipal secretariats; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it meant providing assistance to the municipal secretariats;
2 A. I was not a position to provide assistance and that was not a
3 task that was specifically assigned to me. Because at that time I was
4 commander of the Territorial Defence of Banja Luka, and I could not
5 really cover two posts.
6 Q. When you were serving the function as secretary of the
7 secretariat, was part of your responsibility to assist municipal
8 secretariats of national Defence?
9 A. I believe that my obligation was to convey what the ministry
10 wanted. I really didn't have the capacity to provide any particular
11 assistance. I didn't even visit these secretariats. I did not go from
12 one municipality to the other.
13 MR. TRALDI: Well, could we have 65 ter 31670, page 46.
14 Q. And, sir, this will be another part of your Brdjanin testimony.
15 MR. TRALDI: And I'm looking for the bottom of the page.
16 Q. Beginning at line 17, you're asked:
17 "What were your job responsibilities as -- in this new position
18 that you were appointed to on 27 April 1992?"
19 And before I read your answer, that's the position of secretary
20 of the Secretariat for National Defence; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you answered:
23 "My obligation was to be a link between the Ministry of Defence
24 of the Socialist Republic of B and H, and the Serb Republic of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina. It was called," you clarified, "the Serb Republic of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina. It was a link between the municipal secretariat and the
2 ministry. It was a link, a bypass, transmitting communications, orders,
3 providing assistance to the municipality secretariats."
4 Do you stand behind this portion of your Brdjanin testimony as
5 truthful and accurate?
6 A. I don't have this in the Serbian version. However, I have
7 understood the interpretation of what you said and it is a fact that that
8 is what I stated.
9 Q. And do you confirm today that what you stated in the Brdjanin
10 case was truthful, in the portion that I just read out to you?
11 A. If you mean providing assistance, that is relatively part of my
12 statement too; but, all right, yes.
13 Q. Now, the functions of the Secretariat for National Defence also
14 included recruitment for the army; right?
15 A. Yes, but it is the municipal secretariats that were in charge,
16 not regional.
17 Q. And did the municipal secretariats also keep records of men who
18 served in the army?
19 A. Those are the only records that were kept; that is to say, at the
20 municipal secretariats. That is to say, records of men and of materiel.
22 Q. I want to turn back now to the ARK Crisis Staff. Sir, in
23 paragraph 63 of D836, you say it is "incorrect that an ARK Crisis Staff
24 was covertly formed on the 22nd of January, 1992."
25 MR. TRALDI: In this respect, I'd like to look at 65 ter 20578.
1 Q. As it comes up, this is a transcript of an intercepted
2 conversation between Radovan Karadzic and Jovan Cizmovic dated the 22nd
3 of January, 1992.
4 MR. TRALDI: If we could turn to page 6 in the English and 7 in
5 the B/C/S.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the statement is rather ambiguous in its
7 language. He is saying it is correct, I have no knowledge. I mean, if
8 have you no knowledge then it's very difficult to say that something is
9 incorrect. But that's statement-taking which is confusing rather than
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President. And -- not certain we
13 have the right page in the English. And I'd asked for page 6 which may
14 have been my mistake. Can we confirm we've got that one. Seven in the
15 B/C/S and 6 in the English.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They are both in English.
17 MR. TRALDI: We'd had the correct English page a moment ago. So
18 the B/C/S is now correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now it's --
20 MR. TRALDI: No, not anymore.
21 JUDGE ORIE: To the left, we had -- on the left of our screen for
22 the B/C/S we had the right page, and now the right page for the English.
23 This is the right page, Mr. Traldi, in the B/C/S?
24 MR. TRALDI: The B/C/S is correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now the English.
1 MR. TRALDI: The English is correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah. Please proceed.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. And, sir, looking at -- it's the fifth, I believe, full quote
5 there, Mr. Cizmovic is saying in this intercepted conversation from 22
7 "Tonight we also established the Crisis Staff, which will act
8 when nobody can get together, when they can assemble more quickly."
9 So a Crisis Staff was formed in the ARK on the 22nd of January;
11 A. No. In my view, it wasn't established. This thing that Cizmovic
12 is saying, this, in this conversation, that doesn't have to mean
13 anything. I mean, I haven't any -- seen any document of the 22nd and I
14 cannot accept this. I can only accept that I don't know, but ... I've
15 never heard of this before.
16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 20578.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then I take it that Madam Registrar is waiting for
18 the audio CD.
19 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 20578 receives number P6971,
21 Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. And in paragraph 36, sir, you say you attended some meetings of
1 the ARK Crisis Staff. When you didn't attend, would someone attend in
2 your place?
3 A. May I have that in B/C/S? All of this is in English. And they
4 keep showing it in English to me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I please have B/C/S.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, to the extent there's B/C/S, it will be
8 shown to you. To the extent there's no B/C/S, it will be translated for
9 you. So if you wait and not get upset about it.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. TRALDI:
12 Q. Sir, you attended some meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And when you didn't attend, one of your subordinates in the TO
15 would attend in your place; right?
16 A. I don't remember. Maybe, but I'm not sure. That's not the way
17 it was in practice.
18 Q. Do you remember Mr. Topic replacing you at such meetings several
20 A. You mean the municipal or the Crisis Staff of the AR Krajina?
21 There were two.
22 Q. Let's take them one by one. Did Mr. Topic ever replace you at
23 municipal Crisis Staff meetings?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And Mr. Topic was the number two man in the Territorial Defence;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did he ever replace you at ARK Crisis Staff meetings?
4 A. I have to make a correction here. Kesic was number two, not
5 Topic, but never mind. I don't know whether he stood in for me at the
6 Crisis Staff.
7 Q. Okay. Did Kesic ever stand in for you at the Crisis Staff?
8 A. I don't know. I cannot remember.
9 Q. Now, when one of your subordinates attended a Crisis Staff
10 meeting for you, do you remember if they'd tell you what happened at that
12 A. We did not really attach particular importance to the AR Krajina
13 Crisis Staff.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the first
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this obligation, it wasn't
17 really a major obligation that we had towards the AR Krajina Crisis
18 Staff. Actually, we didn't have one at all.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the question was not whether you found it
20 important. The question was not whether it was an obligation. The
21 question is whether if one of your immediate subordinates had been
22 present, whether they told you what happened during such meetings. That
23 was the question.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the answer to the question, that they did
1 report that to you.
2 Mr. Traldi, could you look at page 8, line 7 and seek whether you
3 can --
4 Before you, in your previous answer, said that you did not really
5 attach particular importance, part of what you said was missing. Do you
6 remember what you said before you said that it was not particularly
7 important for you; and, if so, would you please repeat that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said now?
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. What you said before you answered that the
10 Crisis Staff meetings were -- that you did not really attach particular
11 importance to that. The interpreters told us that they missed a line
12 which you said before saying this. If you don't remember, we'll proceed.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. Like your subordinates would sometimes attend in your place, when
16 General Talic couldn't attend ARK Crisis Staff meetings, the assistant
17 commander of the 1st Krajina Corps for civilian affairs,
18 Colonel Vujinovic, would attend the meetings; right?
19 A. I saw Colonel Vujinovic at meetings, Talic only once.
20 Colonel Vujinovic was not a member of the Crisis Staff. He was more of
21 an observer.
22 Q. Sir, you've answered several questions but not the one that I
23 asked. When General Talic couldn't attend, that's when Colonel Vujinovic
24 would attend on behalf of the corps; right?
25 A. On behalf of the corps, yes.
1 Q. And like your subordinates would be responsible to tell you what
2 had happened at the meeting, Colonel Vujinovic would be responsible to
3 inform General Talic about what happened when he attended a Crisis Staff
4 meeting and General Talic could not; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now while the ARK Crisis Staff was meet, the ARK Assembly wasn't
7 meeting; right
8 A. I don't know whether the assembly sat during those months.
9 Maybe, but I'm not sure.
10 Q. Well, let me ask it this way: It was the ARK Crisis Staff that
11 was issuing decisions in the Bosnian Krajina in May and June of 1992;
13 A. There were some decisions that were made by the Crisis Staff and
14 some conclusions were reached, but since the Crisis Staff of the
15 AR Krajina was not accepted as some kind of organ, then --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the end of
17 the sentence again.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please come a bit closer to the microphone
19 and repeat the last part of your answer. You said that:
20 "Since the Crisis Staff of the ARK was not accepted as some kind
21 of an organ, then ..."
22 And could you tell us what you then said?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then they couldn't pass decisions
24 on behalf of the -- of the Assembly of the AR Krajina. There was the
25 Executive Council, and these decisions that were made were not accepted
1 by all municipalities. And decisions were being reached, so the answer
2 would be, yes.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones
4 please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank you.
5 MR. TRALDI: Well, let have first 65 ter 31672, page 23.
6 Q. This will be another part of your Brdjanin testimony. And again,
7 the transcript will be in English and I'll read it out to you.
8 Beginning at line 6 you're asked -- let's begin at line 7:
9 "Just one more question. I don't have the exact page reference
10 but you'll agree with me that during the time the ARK Crisis Staff met,
11 the ARK Assembly was not meeting; correct? If you need to, we can dig it
12 out of your transcript."
13 You responded:
14 "I don't think so. I don't think it was correct."
15 And you were asked:
16 "... so it was the ARK Crisis Staff that was issuing decisions in
17 the Krajina in June of 1992; correct?"
18 And you answered:
20 Do you confirm today that it was the ARK Crisis Staff that was
21 issuing the decisions on its own authority in the Krajina in June of
23 A. Decisions, yes. Now, whether they could do that on the basis of
24 the law, no. Made decisions, yes. And the decisions were being
25 published too.
1 Q. Now, you said in an answer a moment ago - and you say in your
2 statement - that some municipalities did not accept the ARK Crisis
3 Staff's decisions. I'll look at a few examples later this morning. But
4 before we do that, in fact, you can only speak about Banja Luka and you
5 don't know the extent to which other municipalities in the ARK
6 implemented ARK Crisis Staff conclusions; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I want to ask you now about some of the statements made by
9 Mr. Brdjanin, the president of the Crisis Staff.
10 In paragraph 42, you say that you don't know whether and why
11 Brdjanin said in the media that only a thousand Muslims would be allowed
12 to stay in Banja Luka to clean the streets, but you'd heard from others
13 that he did say this. I have several questions in this respect. First,
14 you heard this from Serbs in Banja Luka; right?
15 A. I never heard that, this sentence of 1.000 Muslims. And this is
16 something that my brain will never accept. But that I heard all sorts of
17 things being said, that's true, but this thing, 1.000 Muslims, no. I
18 mean, if I'm forced to say yes, then --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
20 end of the sentence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, you're not forced to say anything.
22 You only have an obligation to tell us the truth. The question was not
23 whether you could possibly think it to be true, but since in your
24 statement we read that you heard others saying that this is what
25 Mr. Brdjanin had said, the question was whether you heard this from Serbs
1 in Banja Luka?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I talked about this to
3 the investigator too and for a long time at that. Brdjanin was saying
4 all sorts of things. That's true. But I did not hear --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness -- stop. I stop you there. In
6 your statement, you said that you heard from others that Brdjanin had
7 said this. Now, whether these others were telling the truth or not is a
8 different matter. But the question is: Who were those that had told you
9 that Brdjanin had said this? Were they Serbs from Banja Luka? That's
10 the question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
12 JUDGE ORIE: But in your statement recently you said that you
13 heard this from others but you have no idea who told you this?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
16 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31671, page 44.
17 Q. Sir, this will be another part of your Brdjanin testimony.
18 Now, beginning on line 19 at the bottom of the page, you're
20 "I want to ask you a little bit about some of the things
21 Mr. Brdjanin said when he was president of the ARK Crisis Staff, and
22 perhaps just before he became president as well. One of the things you
23 were asked about in this interview that you remembered was hearing from
24 other Serbs that Mr. Brdjanin had said in the media - doesn't say whether
25 it's TV or radio - that only a thousand Muslims will be allowed to stay
1 in Banja Luka and that those thousand Muslims will be comprised of
2 elderly people who will put to cleaning the streets."
3 And you were asked:
4 "Now, do you remember hearing about that from Serbs in
5 Banja Luka, that they had heard Mr. Brdjanin say that in the media, as
6 you state in the interview?"
7 And you responded:
9 Does this portion of your sworn Brdjanin testimony refresh your
10 recollection as to whether Serbs in Banja Luka had told you that they
11 heard Mr. Brdjanin say this in the media?
12 A. I cannot remember who told me. I communicated with -- with
13 Croats and Muslims. It's possible that it was also Serbs. I'm not
14 denying it.
15 Q. Next, you say in your statement that Muslims and Croats in
16 Banja Luka were "certainly disturbed by such statements." What you mean
17 specifically is that they were made to be afraid; right?
18 A. It's a part of that, but they were disturbed because of more
19 serious things, but one of the reasons was also this.
20 Q. Now this statement, that only a small number of elderly Muslims
21 could stay in Banja Luka to sweep the streets, this is a derogatory
22 statement about Muslims; right?
23 A. It is, yes.
24 Q. And while you didn't -- while your evidence is that you didn't
25 hear Mr. Brdjanin say this specifically, you can confirm that
1 Mr. Brdjanin made these types of derogatory speeches in the media; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 03277.
4 Q. Now, in paragraph 41 of D836 you say you don't believe that
5 Mr. Brdjanin personally called for the dismissal of Muslims and Croats
6 from work in Banja Luka.
7 Now, this is a decision by the ARK Crisis Staff dated the 26th of
8 May, 1992. Directing your attention to point 3, we read:
9 "Leading posts in social and public organisations may be occupied
10 only by the most professional persons who are absolutely devoted to the
11 Serbian people in the Serbian Republic Bosnia and Herzegovina."
12 And that meant Serbs; right?
13 A. It's the same thing today. The party that wins will appoint its
14 own cadre. There were also loyal Muslims and Croats, loyal to
15 Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Well, I'll get to that in a second.
17 MR. TRALDI: But before I do, I tender 65 ter 03277.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 3277 receives number P6972,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. TRALDI: Could we have Exhibit P6948.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. This is a decision by the ARK Crisis Staff dated the 22nd of
2 June, 1992, and it's signed by Mr. Brdjanin. And directing your
3 attention to the first point, we read:
4 "Only personnel of Serbian ethnicity may hold executive post,
5 posts where the information flow is possible, and posts involving the
6 protection of socially owned property ..."
7 And then at the end of that first point, we read:
8 "Likewise, these posts may not be held by those employees of
9 Serbian ethnicity who have not confirmed it in the plebiscite or have not
10 yet accepted that the only representative of the Serbian people is the
11 Serbian Democratic Party."
12 So here Mr. Brdjanin is quite explicitly signing a document that
13 calls for Muslims and Croats to be dismissed from their positions; right?
14 A. The Serbian Democratic Party had complete power which it won in
15 the elections, and it appointed its own cadres. The same principle
16 applies today, that the requirement that the cadres even have to be
17 members of the SDS. So automatically if somebody was a Muslim and a
18 director, they could not be a director any longer. They could be
19 something else but not a director. This is just one example.
20 Q. I appreciate that additional detail, sir. But directly relevant
21 to your statement, this document shows that through his position as
22 president of the ARK Crisis Staff, Mr. Brdjanin, in fact, did personally
23 call for the dismissal of Muslims and Croats; right?
24 A. I don't see that he said dismiss them, but he just said that they
25 could not occupy executive posts. But I don't see it written anywhere
1 that they ought to be dismissed. The decision on appointment of cadres
2 was made by the Executive Board. They would sign the decision, unless
3 there was some kind of abuse of power. But a director, if he's no longer
4 a director, could do something else.
5 Q. To implement this decision, that only personnel of Serbian
6 ethnicity may hold executive posts, it is would be necessary for Muslims
7 and Croats who held executive posts and these other types of posts
8 described in point I to stop holding those posts; right?
9 A. Those who were in leadership positions or places where
10 information was coming in or being disseminated and were not Serbs were
11 to be replaced.
12 Q. Now you also saw this document in your Karadzic testimony, and
13 I'd like to look at that for a moment.
14 MR. TRALDI: Could we 65 ter 31673, page 17.
15 Q. And you were asked similarly:
16 "Okay. Well, at paragraph 41," same statement, "you said you did
17 not believe that Brdjanin personally called for the dismissal of Muslims
18 and Croats, but this document shows that through his position as ARK
19 Crisis Staff president he did exactly that, called for the dismissal of
20 Muslims and Croats; right?"
21 And you answered:
22 "From the documents it appears so."
23 First, do you stand by that portion of your sworn Karadzic
24 testimony as truthful and accurate?
25 A. Well, perhaps we could change the play of words here.
1 Replacement and dismissal is not the same thing. Even when we were
2 talking a little bit earlier, I would say, yes, they were being relieved
3 from their posts but it's not dismissal. And it doesn't say dismissal.
4 I don't know if anybody dismissed anybody, but ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- if you replace one person by another, then
6 that one person does not hold that post any further. To that extent,
7 he's out. Let me just use ordinary language. Do you know what happened
8 with those who were out for these reasons?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many stayed in the same company
10 doing different work, in a different job. Your Honours, many stayed at
11 work. Many did leave. I don't know.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know or do you not know?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
14 JUDGE ORIE: You say "many stayed." Could you give us the
15 function and the names of some persons in executive positions who stayed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was in the Meridijan. I cannot
17 remember his name. His name was Hilmija and he was in the Meridijan
18 company. He was replaced but he remained employed. He still worked in
19 that company and he worked there for a long time until he left. But in
20 1992 he was working.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was his new position? What was his new
22 position in that firm.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember. It was a less
24 important job. They would get less important positions, less important
25 ones. Perhaps they were an advisor or some kind of assistant or a clerk.
1 Something that was less important.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And he was of what ethnicity?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A Bosniak, Muslim.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have any other names, please write them
5 down during the break - that is, company and the name of that
6 executive -- that person in an executive position - so that we can
7 consider facts in this respect.
8 Mr. Traldi.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Before we leave this topic, sir, in paragraph 41 of D836, you say
11 in pertinent part:
12 "I can agree, however, that in 1992 Muslims and Croats were
13 dismissed from work."
14 Do you stand behind that portion of your witness statement?
15 A. Could you please repeat your question.
16 Q. Sure.
17 MR. TRALDI: Can we get paragraph 41 of D836 on the screen,
18 please. We have the right part of the English, yes. And in the B/C/S, I
19 think it will be the top of the next page.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. So you say, in pertinent part:
23 "I can agree, however, that in 1992 Muslims and Croats were
24 dismissed from work."
25 This is in your witness statement which you swore was truthful
1 and accurate in this case which you also swore was truthful and accurate
2 in the Karadzic case. Do you stand behind this portion of your witness
4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I
5 think that it would be good to read the entire sentence to the witness
6 and not just a part of it and that way just take it out of the -- out of
7 context. Perhaps then the witness can respond to the question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, you're doing what has been done so
9 many times, that is to, more or less, give signals to the witness, which
10 you should not do. If there's any matter, if you say, I would appreciate
11 if Mr. Traldi would give context or more context, that message is clear
12 enough for Mr. Traldi. And if he doesn't understand it or if he
13 considers it better not to do that at that moment, you have a possibility
14 in re-examination to deal with the matter.
15 Mr. Traldi, I don't know whether you find it a good suggestion or
16 not, but we leave it to that at this moment.
17 MR. TRALDI: I'm happy to read the whole sentence. But I will be
18 asking the witness specifically again whether he confirms the portion I
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. TRALDI:
22 Q. So the full sentence is:
23 "I can agree, however, that in 1992 Muslims and Croats were
24 dismissed from work, but I do not agree that the Crisis Staff was fully
25 responsible for that because Serbs were also dismissed."
1 Now, do you confirm what you say in this sentence that in 1992
2 Muslims and Croats were dismissed from work?
3 A. If you permit me, I read the entire sentence, and it has a
4 completely different meaning than the question that was put to me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness -- Witness.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, you see now what is the result of how you
8 operate. I don't need any further -- I've just established this.
9 Witness, the question simply was whether you still confirm that
10 in 1992 Muslims and Croats were dismissed from work.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
13 Mr. Stojanovic --
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Unless you have any objection against one of the
16 questions or if you have any legitimate reason to interfere, you may do
17 so, but not to further comment on what I just said. That's what you're
18 not allowed to do. If there's anything else, please proceed.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due
22 respect, I just wanted to say for the transcript that I did not have the
23 intention as was placed here. I -- in the transcript, I just put that
24 for purposes of context and I wish to say that for the transcript. I did
25 not have any erroneous goals or objectives.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You could have done so at a later stage.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Or malicious.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I said that you're supposed to not to further
4 comment on what I said. And the only thing I said is not that you
5 intentionally did it. I said this the result of what you did. I didn't
6 even discuss the intentions.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. TRALDI:
9 Q. The Serbs you say in that sentence were also dismissed were those
10 not loyal to the SDS as reflected in your comments earlier this morning
11 and Mr. Brdjanin's decision that we just looked at; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Relatedly, you say in paragraph 43 of D836 that you --
14 JUDGE MOLOTO: Before you go to paragraph 43, I just have a
16 You're saying that the Crisis Staff was not fully responsible for
17 the dismissal. Who was -- who had dismissed these Muslims?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The companies. The leadership of
19 the company. And the companies either accepted or did not accept the
20 decisions of the Crisis Staff.
21 JUDGE MOLOTO: The decision of the Crisis Staff as contained in
22 Mr. Brdjanin's decision that was referred to earlier?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have one additional question.
1 You say the Crisis Staff was not fully responsible. But that
2 decision should be implemented. And if you would not implement it, you'd
3 be fired yourself, isn't it? That's what the decision says.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would need to read the decision
5 again, but I wouldn't have -- I wasn't dismissed and I didn't fulfil
6 the -- implement the decisions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Whether that was given effect, yes or no, is
8 a different matter. But let's have a look at the decision again so that
9 you can read it. And it was --
10 Could you please assist me.
11 MR. TRALDI: P6948, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm drawing your attention to point III. And in
13 relation to that, also point II, the deadline for the fulfilment of the
14 tasks given was 26th of June. That's four days after the decision was
15 issued. And then III reads:
16 "Failure to comply with the above mentioned decision shall
17 automatically result in the dismissal of the responsible persons."
18 Now, Mr. Sajic, if you say that there is no full responsibility
19 for the Crisis Staff, would you agree with me that if there's such a
20 clear threat, that if you don't do what is ordered, that this gives at
21 least great part, if not all, of the responsibility to the Crisis Staff?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But it's a question of replacing
23 people, not dismissing them.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a question of dismissal.
1 That's how I understood it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you agree with me that not doing what is
3 order tells you is heavily sanctioned and that that -- but please tell us
4 whether you agree or not. And that makes the Crisis Staff very
5 responsible for any result of what they decided.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff didn't have the
7 instruments to apply any sanctions. None. Other than the fact that
8 Brdjanin signed a decision.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So -- so you say so this is distributed but everyone
10 just thinks, Well, why would we care, because it's just the Crisis Staff.
11 We don't do it. Is that your position in interpreting this document.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not interpreting it like that,
13 Your Honour. This is how I interpret it, if you permit me to explain.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Briefly, yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff made a decision
16 and disseminated it to all publicly-owned enterprises, so the usual thing
17 would be that these replacements would be carried out. But if they were
18 not, they were perhaps not expecting -- they were not complying with the
19 decision of the Crisis Staff.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last two
21 sentences of what he said.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last two sentences.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The decision that publicly-owned
24 and other companies and institutions received was implemented to a
25 significant degree but not everyone complied with the decision. They did
1 not dismiss the people in question but they would assign them to other
2 jobs. Some of them. And so the Crisis Staff could not apply any
3 punitive measures or any punishment because of this action.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you say you -- you earlier said you didn't
5 implement these -- this decision or ...
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Who was it that you kept in an executive position
8 and who was of Croat or Muslim ethnicity which you did not replace in
9 your organisation?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my organisation at the TO Staff,
11 I did not replace anyone. Zoran Kolak was my security chief for security
12 of buildings. I didn't replace him. He was a Croat. Zdenko Mesud; the
13 first one was a Croat, the second one was a Muslim.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they stayed until when?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They stayed as long as I did.
16 Afterwards, they moved into brigades. I stopped on the 15th of June,
17 de facto and de jure, whatever you wish, and they went to the units of
18 the Serb republic, the light brigades. And they went there.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So you said you did not implement this decision
20 because they stayed, and you said that they stayed until the 15th of
21 June. That's what you're telling us?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's how long I was their
23 commander. Later on, they stayed --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the decision was of the 22nd of June. So if
25 you were not in your position anymore, then it was -- there was no
1 question about implementing or not. Because what happened until the 15th
2 of June could not be covered by a decision of the 22nd of June, would it?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right. They continued in
4 the light brigades after the 15th of June. That's an extension of the
5 Territorial Defence. That's what I meant when I said that. They
6 continued along this path. In the brigades.
7 JUDGE ORIE: What you said is: I wasn't dismissed, and I didn't
8 implement the decisions.
9 We [sic] are talking about what happened 15th of June; whereas,
10 we are talking about a decision issued on the 22nd of June.
11 Leave it to that. If there's any follow-up questions,
12 Mr. Traldi, I leave it to you.
13 We'll first take a break. We'd like to see you back in 20
14 minutes. You may follow the usher.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at five minutes to 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: While we're waiting for the witness to be brought
20 in, Mr. Stojanovic, have you checked the adjudicated facts as we advised
21 you to do yesterday, whether they are, indeed, for the full 100 percent
22 the same?
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We tried, Your Honour, and I
24 think that we can inform you about the checks that we carried out. To
25 the best of our understanding, I will tell you in the briefest possible
1 terms. Adjudicated facts as marked 416, 427, 430, 431, 433, and 456 --
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] -- it seems that they are
4 absolutely identical. Adjudicated fact 447 in the Karadzic case, though,
5 has a phrase in its first sentence and that goes beyond what is contained
6 in the Mladic adjudicated facts. The words are as follows --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, of course, we identified that
8 already quite a while ago. What we want you to be aware of that there
9 are differences and that you didn't --
10 MR. LUKIC: That's right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- verify that exactly at the beginning and the same
12 is true for 421, that was overturned by the Appeals Chamber. 447 was
13 rephrased. And we expect you to take adequate action on those
14 differences. But are there any others apart from 421 and 447 which you
15 identified as being different?
16 MR. LUKIC: No. No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then take adequate action for that because the
18 witness, of course, commented on the adjudicated facts as phrased in his
19 statement rather than as the adjudicated facts as phrased in this case.
20 Mr. Traldi, if you're ready, you may proceed.
21 MR. TRALDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Sir, returning to the topic of dismissals, you say in
23 paragraph 43 of your statement that you:
24 "... do not deny that Croatian and Muslim officers were dismissed
25 from the 1st Krajina Corps."
1 In fact, you can confirm that Croatian and Muslim officers were
2 purged from the 1st Krajina Corps; right?
3 A. Purged?
4 Q. "Purged" is the word I used, yes.
5 A. No.
6 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31672, page 9.
7 Q. As it comes up this will be another portion of your Brdjanin
8 testimony. Again it will appear in English and I'll read it out to you.
9 Now, the question here -- you're referred to a document, and the question
10 I'm interested begins on line 23. You were asked:
11 "Now you know, don't you, that in fact ultimately not right on
12 this day, but soon thereafter officers of Muslim and Croat [sic]
13 nationality were purged from the 1st Krajina Corps correct?"
14 MR. TRALDI: We turn to the next page.
15 Q. You say:
16 "I'm not trying to deny that but I do not know the exact date
17 when these officers were purged or who exactly was purged. I don't know
18 the date, whether it was on the same day or not. I can see this order by
19 Mladic, and it looks quite clear to me."
20 And you were asked:
21 "I'm not asking you for the day; I just wanted your confirmation
22 that it in fact occurred, that these men of Muslim and Croat nationality
23 were, in fact, purged from the 1st Krajina Corps ranks. Correct? Don't
24 worry about the exact day."
25 And you answered:
2 Do you stand behind this portion of your testimony in the
3 Brdjanin case as truthful and accurate?
4 A. This notion of purging is something I find unclear. Dismissal
5 and reassignment is something different. That's why I react and said no.
6 As for this interpretation of yours, I'm not sure whether it is dismissal
7 or --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, the essence is whether officers of Muslim
9 and Croat nationality were dismissed from their jobs in the
10 1st Krajina Corps. Were they?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Active-duty officers, yes. On
12 orders they were transferred. Up until the end of the war. They were on
13 leave and then they were reassigned. And reserve officers stayed.
14 Reserve officers. All of them are officers, reserve officers,
15 active-duty officers.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that officers of Muslim and
17 Croat nationality who were put on leave, that they returned after the
18 war? Is that -- in their old positions? Is that what you are telling
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I'm telling you
21 that --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. TRALDI:
25 Q. I'm going to turn now to communications.
1 Sir, you discuss communications between the ARK and Pale in your
2 statement and you mention the regional communication centre in
3 Banja Luka. The regional centre in Banja Luka was already connected with
4 the republican centre by the 23rd of March, 1992; right?
5 A. That's the way it should have been, but then I don't know.
6 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P4088.
7 Q. Now this is a document coming from the SDS dated the 23rd of
8 March, 1992.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, could you assist us in finding the right
11 MR. TRALDI: The third paragraph in both versions, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I mean paragraph in the statement because --
13 unless you are not referring to any paragraph in the statement of the
15 MR. TRALDI: He discusses communications at some length. The
16 regional communications centre, I'm afraid I don't have the paragraph in
17 front of me. It's a brief reference.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try to find it. Please proceed.
19 MR. TRALDI:
20 Q. The third paragraph here reads:
21 "Regional centres in Banja Luka, Trebinje, Sokolac, and Bijeljina
22 are already connected with the republican centre of TT and radio
23 communications ..."
24 So it's correct, isn't it, that by the 23rd of March, 1992 the
25 regional communications centre in Banja Luka was connected with the
1 republican communications centre?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 10743.
4 Q. This is an article in Glas dated the 9th of May, 1992, entitled:
5 "Information Blockade Lifted." It includes a number of quotes from
6 Zeljko Katic, and he was the head of the regional information centre;
8 A. I think that Zeljko Katic was in that centre. I know him but I'm
9 not sure whether he actually headed.
10 Q. Looking at the second paragraph in the article we read that as of
11 9th of May:
12 "The regional information centre is operating 24 hours a day
14 MR. TRALDI: And turning to page 2 in the English near the top
15 and the second column in the B/C/S of the same article.
16 Q. We read that among its other responsibilities, the regional
17 communications centre was: "... directly connecting the leadership of
18 the municipality with the Autonomous Region of Krajina."
19 That was one of the regional information centre's functions;
21 A. Its function was always communication between Sarajevo and
22 Banja Luka, and that's the way it remained. It was not communication
23 between municipalities. Secretariats, yes. Somebody from the AR Krajina
24 probably used this, either the Executive Council or the Crisis Staff. So
25 if you have a centre through which you can send a dispatch, then people
1 do use it.
2 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 10743.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document 10743 receives number P6973,
5 Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted.
7 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P3027. And I apologise.
8 Q. Now, this is an order Minister of Defence Subotic issued on the
9 16th of April, 1992. Among other things, under "decision," it calls for:
10 "A general, public mobilisation ... on the entire territory." Now, you
11 implemented this order; right?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you answer the question, whether you
13 implemented this order, especially on the part Mr. Traldi read to you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Paragraph number 1?
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. The part I read to you was: "A general, public mobilisation has
17 been ordered on the entire territory of SBH." You implemented this order
18 and specifically that point in the ARK; right?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for the witness to be able to read it, it's
20 at the bottom of the page under number 2, so the second "odluku" but then
21 under 2.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How about going to the end? I
23 didn't even see this. I looked at the first one, not the second one.
24 The decision, I mean.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's the reason why I invited you to read the
1 latter part. Start reading at 2 at the bottom of the page. And then the
2 question is whether you implemented this.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. TRALDI:
5 Q. And you had to have communications with Pale to receive this
6 order; right?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How could you have received this order if you couldn't receive
9 communications from Pale?
10 A. This decision was probably provided to me by someone as a
11 dispatch from that centre. I never entered the centre during the war. I
12 never said dispatches to Pale.
13 Q. Let me rephrase my question. For you to implement this order, it
14 was necessary for the Autonomous Region of Krajina to have communications
15 with Pale where the order was issued; correct?
16 A. This decision was not published anywhere. It was submitted to me
17 through --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, let's keep matters simple. In order to
19 implement it, you must have received it. In order to receive it, there
20 must be a way of communication between Pale and you. That's the
21 question, whether you agree with that.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: And in fact there was an operating teleprinter
25 connection between Pale and Banja Luka at this point, the 16th of April,
1 1992; right?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
3 witness. Could all unnecessary microphones please be switched off.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you repeat your answer, please, Witness,
6 speaking into the microphone.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 31682.
9 Q. This is a decision from the ARK Crisis Staff dated THE 15th of
10 May, 1992, signed by Mr. Brdjanin and type-signed by you. Turning to
11 page 2 in the B/C/S and still on 1 -- or beginning on 1 in the English,
12 we see a list of issues on which reports should be submitted as specified
13 at the top of the text to the ARK Crisis Staff via the district reporting
14 centre. So as of 15 May 1992 via the district reporting centre, the
15 Crisis Staff in the ARK had communications with municipal organs; right?
16 A. I don't see who it was sent to. I just see this decision.
17 Q. Here in the first point, we read:
18 "In order to ensure continual insight into the situation on the
19 territory of the AR Krajina and a framework for adopting decisions by the
20 Crisis Staff, the municipal organs are required to report to the district
21 organs, and they should report to the AR Krajina Crisis Staff operative
22 on duty, via the district reporting centre ..."
23 This is a decision issued on the 15th of May. What I'm putting
24 to you is: At that point, the district reporting centre was functioning
25 and the municipal organs were capable of issuing reports in the way that
1 you and Mr. Brdjanin are deciding they should do here; right?
2 A. Some had the ability, others did not. Some municipalities that
3 did not have printers could not file reports. But generally speaking,
5 MR. TRALDI: I tender 65 ter 31682.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document 31682 receives number P6974,
8 Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
10 MR. TRALDI: Could we have P6904.
11 Q. While this comes up, sir, you claim that the ARK and the central
12 republican authorities had substantial differences and that the ARK
13 Crisis Staff was not the highest organ of authority in the ARK because of
14 its differences with the leadership in Pale.
15 Now, this is a transcript of an intercepted phone conversation
16 between President Karadzic and Mr. Brdjanin on the 1st of November, 1991.
17 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 4 in the English and page 3 in the
19 Q. President Karadzic tells Brdjanin, in pertinent part:
20 "Call me about something that you cannot resolve. You have all
21 the power in Krajina. Why don't you exercise this power?"
22 Now, President Karadzic is recognizing Mr. Brdjanin's authority
23 in the ARK; right?
24 A. What's the line? I cannot see that.
25 Q. Do you see where about six lines from the bottom,
1 President Karadzic is -- asks: Can you solve a single problem without
2 Karadzic. It's two of President Karadzic's statements below that, so the
3 second line from the bottom. The second quote from the bottom, starts:
4 "But no, no, it is not that I can't." And there's a -- there's a cursor
5 next to it on the screen at the moment.
6 A. It's at the bottom?
7 Q. It's -- it's next to what looks like a little magnifying-glass on
8 the screen, sir. So my question for you about this line is simple: When
9 President Karadzic says to Mr. Brdjanin, "You have all the power in
10 Krajina. Why don't you exercise this power?" he is recognizing that
11 Mr. Brdjanin has substantial power in the Autonomous Region of Krajina;
13 A. "Significant," "substantial," and "all" is not the same thing.
14 The authority was in the Executive Council. They are accusing each
15 other, the Crisis Staff, the Executive Council. This happened once some
16 went to complain to Karadzic. They actually gossiped about each other.
17 And when he said, "You have all the power," he didn't mean just Brdjanin
18 having all the power. This is at least what I understand.
19 MR. TRALDI: Well, turning to page 5 in the English and 4 in the
20 B/C/S, and it's seventh or eighth line down right below Mr. Brdjanin
21 utters the single word "Kupresanin."
22 Q. President Karadzic is speaking very directly to Mr. Brdjanin and
23 he says:
24 "Come on, man, do your job. Don't call me about every minor
25 problem. I'm not your nanny. You have power in your hands, and you have
1 presidents of municipalities through whom you can exercise this
2 power ..."
3 He's speaking directly to Mr. Brdjanin there; right?
4 A. I understand this as a conversation between Radoslav Brdjanin and
5 Radovan Karadzic in which they refer to Mr. Kupresanin, and in this case
6 he's using the president of the region, Kupresanin, as a personality, as
7 a function, and where Karadzic says that they should call the president
8 of the municipalities, he meant that the region should do that.
9 Kupresanin or somebody else. I don't see that Brdjo could do that. And
10 if he did do that, I don't see that all of that was done the way it was
12 Q. Your interpretation is based solely on having read the text of
13 this paragraph just now because you were not privy to any conversations
14 between President Karadzic and Mr. Brdjanin yourself; right?
15 A. I was not present. That is correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, of course, you're asking questions to
17 the witness in a similar vein by saying do you confirm that he is
18 recognizing that Mr. Brdjanin has substantial power. You're inviting the
19 witness to interpret it. So then, don't be surprised if he comes with an
20 interpretation and then you put to him you have no knowledge about it.
21 That's a bit odd in my view.
22 Let's -- I have one other question. Is there any reason why you
23 say the date is the 1st of November, whereas the document says it's the
24 31st of October?
25 MR. TRALDI: My notes may be in error, Mr. President, and I'll
1 check and respond at the break.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
3 MR. TRALDI:
4 Q. Related to exercising power through the presidents of the
5 municipalities, in paragraph 50, you mention that you had the
6 impression --
7 MR. TRALDI: Paragraph 50 of D836.
8 Q. -- that meetings of presidents of municipalities would be held on
9 Mondays. These were meetings between the presidents of municipalities in
10 the ARK and the ARK Crisis Staff; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. These Monday meetings were held regularly; right?
13 A. I didn't attend every meeting. They were quite frequent. But I
14 don't know about regular.
15 MR. TRALDI: Well, just for clarity, let's have 65 ter 31672,
16 page 42.
17 Q. Another portion of your Brdjanin testimony. Sorry, I've called
18 up the wrong portion of your Brdjanin testimony.
19 MR. TRALDI: It's been uploaded under three numbers. If I could
20 have just one second, Your Honour. If we have 31671, page 42.
21 Q. You were asked about the Monday morning meetings with the
22 presidents of the various municipalities. And then, beginning at line
23 11, you say -- you're asked, rather:
24 "And you stated later on, it's not particularly important, that
25 you remembered that these Monday meetings were regular. Right? On page
1 72 of the English."
2 And you responded:
4 So it's correct, as you testified in the Brdjanin case, that
5 these Monday morning meetings were regular; right?
6 A. I don't have a translation but if that's what I said, that's what
7 I thought at the time. I wasn't at all the meetings, but it's possible
8 that they were. I mean, perhaps they were held every Monday.
9 Saints' Days were occurring as well.
10 Q. One of the purposes of the meetings was that so presidents of
11 municipalities could go back to their municipalities and brief those
12 municipalities on what was concluded or discussed at the ARK Crisis Staff
13 meetings; right?
14 A. I don't know what the reason was. I really cannot say. Who
15 would he inform about the presidents?
16 Q. What I was putting to you was that the presidents of these
17 municipalities would inform their municipal Crisis Staffs or their
18 Municipal Executive Boards about what was being decided and discussed at
19 the ARK Crisis Staff meetings. That's true, isn't it?
20 A. In my opinion, the people who were supposed to be there were the
21 presidents of the Crisis Staffs.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And the question then was whether they were invited
23 to pass on to the local Crisis Staffs or their Municipal Executive Boards
24 what had been decided in the ARK Crisis Staff.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how they
1 were summoned, what was the way that they were summoned. I know that it
2 would -- was a meeting without any agenda and they, as presidents of
3 municipalities, and at the same time the presidents of their Crisis
4 Staffs, probably once they returned to their municipality, I assume, I'm
5 not sure, I don't know, I cannot assert this 100 per cent, they would
6 call the president of the Crisis Staff, the members of the inner circle,
7 and then they would say, Well, that was what was discussed. That would
8 be that.
9 MR. TRALDI:
10 Q. Sir, in paragraphs 55 through 58 of D836, you discuss a meeting
11 of the ARK Crisis Staff where the Prijedor representatives discussed
12 facilities that you referred to as collection centres and investigation
13 centres. Was this one of the Monday meetings where representatives from
14 different municipalities were present?
15 A. I can't remember. It was 20 years ago. But, probably, yes,
16 it -- if it was. I mean, if it means anything to you.
17 Q. Mr. Brdjanin chaired this meeting; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the Prijedor representatives were Milomir Stakic,
20 Simo Drljaca, and Slobodan Kuruzovic; right?
21 A. I think so, yes.
22 Q. Now you testified earlier that if General Talic was not present
23 at a Crisis Staff meet, Colonel Vujinovic would attend instead. Do you
24 recall who attended this session on behalf of the 1st Krajina Corps?
25 A. I know that Vujinovic attended usually, but I don't know about
1 that particular case, whether he was there or not. I don't know what I
2 said. I don't know if he was there on that occasion or not.
3 Q. Now, at this meeting it was clear to you and the other people
4 there that there were large numbers of people being held in what you
5 called collection centres in the ARK at that time; right?
6 A. It was known that there was a number of people in the collection
7 centre. I don't know exactly how many. I knew that something was
8 happening in the area of Prijedor and that there was a collection centre.
9 I didn't know what the number of people was. And I think that nobody at
10 the meeting ever specifically said that there was such and such a number
11 of people there.
12 Q. It was clear that the people being held in those centres were
13 non-Serbs; right?
14 A. That was clear.
15 Q. You mention in your statement that Predrag Radic later went to
16 Omarska and that he told you he was upset by what he saw there. I have a
17 few questions specifically about what he told you. First, Mr. Radic told
18 you about his visit about a day after he'd been to the camp; right?
19 A. Perhaps that afternoon. Perhaps in the afternoon on that day or
20 the next day. But in any case, it was quite soon after.
21 Q. And you're aware that Radoslav Brdjanin and Mr. Vukic were also
22 part of the delegation; right?
23 A. I think so. I think that that was the delegation. I don't know
24 if anybody else was there.
25 Q. Do you recall if anyone else was present when you had this
1 conversation with Mr. Radic?
2 A. I don't think so. I know Radic went and Vukic. I don't know
3 about anybody else.
4 Q. And setting aside the details of the conversation you had in
5 Radic -- you had with Radic, you know as you sit there today that Omarska
6 in 1992 was a terrible place for the prisoners held there and that crimes
7 were committed against the people who were held there; right?
8 A. According to what I found out later, about crimes being
9 committed, yes, I did know that crimes were committed.
10 Q. Now, sir, at the end of your statement, you challenge a number of
11 adjudicated facts, and I'm going to address a couple of those now.
12 First, in paragraph 68 of your statement, D836, you state that:
13 "Restrictions on free movement were aimed at all citizens
14 regardless of their nationality."
15 Now, in fact, with the possible exception of Banja Luka, you
16 don't really know about the restrictions that were placed on the movement
17 of non-Serbs in ARK municipalities; right?
18 A. I know what I wrote in the mobilisation order and the order
19 implementing the curfew. And this was applied in Banja Luka to a
20 substantial degree. I emphasise "to a substantial degree." But I don't
21 know how that was implemented in other municipalities. Probably it
22 should have been in the same way as it was implemented in Banja Luka, but
23 I cannot say that for sure.
24 Q. So would it be fair to say, sir, that, again with the possible
25 exception of Banja Luka, you don't really know in any detail what kinds
1 of restrictions were placed on the movement of non-Serbs in ARK
3 A. [No interpretation]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I heard the witness saying yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I also heard a "da." You confirmed, Witness, that
6 you don't really know in any detail, apart from Banja Luka, what kinds of
7 restrictions were placed on the movement of non-Serbs in the ARK
8 municipalities. You confirmed that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Next in paragraph 67 of your statement, you state that it is
12 incorrect that the resettlement policy within the Bosnian Krajina was
13 co-ordinated at the regional level by the ARK Crisis Staff. I have a
14 number of questions about this. First, it's true that the ARK Crisis
15 Staff issued decisions on the rules governing people's departures from
16 the ARK; right?
17 A. It's not a question. You're asserting that that is so. But it's
18 not a question.
19 Q. I'm asking you if it's true. Can you confirm that the ARK Crisis
20 Staff issued such decisions.
21 A. First of all, I don't know all the decisions that were made and
22 that were signed. I don't know who made the decisions, who signed them.
23 Perhaps somebody else signed them.
24 As for moving the population out, until the corridor was opened
25 there was no mass transfer of the population.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the question. The question
2 was whether the ARK Crisis Staff issued decisions on the rules governing
3 people's departures from the ARK. That was the question, not whether
4 there were many, or little, or whether it was -- they were implemented,
5 but just decisions being taken by the ARK Crisis Staff on this subject.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It did make some decisions, but I
7 don't know which ones. On that topic, yes, it did make some decisions.
8 MR. TRALDI: Well, let's have P3868. This will be a decision by
9 the ARK Crisis Staff dated the 28th of May, 1992.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that decision.
11 MR. TRALDI: Sorry. It's a list of conclusions by the ARK Crisis
12 Staff dated the 28th of May, 1992. If we could have point 7 on page 2 in
13 both languages.
14 Q. We read here:
15 "If Muslims and Croats or members of the SDA or HDZ wish to leave
16 or move out of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, they must enable the
17 endangered Serbian people, against whom unprecedented genocide is being
18 conducted, to move collectively into their places, i.e., they must
19 facilitate an exchange based on reciprocity."
20 So here, the ARK Crisis Staff is setting out rules governing
21 people's departures from the ARK; right.
22 A. No, no. This is some story that the SDA and the HDZ as parties
23 allow some of the population to pass through Konjic and the others to
24 come the other way. I mean, this was during the blockade. This is
25 somebody telling a story. It's -- I cannot say what happened. This is a
1 decision relating to prohibition on exchange of foreign currency, so
2 it's -- has to do with giving a permission for people to leave and then
3 not allowing them to go back.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, Witness, could you speak into the
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This item 7 is part of a - what is
9 it? - a conclusion, something like that. I don't see what the document
10 says, if it's a decision or a conclusion. This point 7 talks about if
11 they want to leave, then the SDA and the HDZ should ensure or make it
12 possible. But these are political parties. They cannot do that. They
13 cannot allow anybody to go or return. All sorts of things were written
14 in these decisions, so somebody put this in a decision.
15 MR. TRALDI: Could we have D423, page 3 in the English and page 2
16 in the B/C/S.
17 Q. Now, this is a document again coming from the ARK Crisis Staff
18 and it's reporting that at a meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff on the 29th
19 of May, 1992, the following conclusions were reached. And at point 1, it
21 "It has been decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish,
22 should be able to move out of the area of the Autonomous Region of
23 Krajina, but on condition that also those Serbs who live outside the
24 Serbian Autonomous Districts and regions are allowed to move into the
25 territories of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the
1 Autonomous Region of Krajina. In this manner, an exchange of population,
2 or, more precisely, a resettlement of people from one part of the former
3 SR BH to another would be carried out in an organised manner."
4 We see essentially the same conclusion here as we did in the last
5 document; right?
6 A. I haven't read it. Can we go back a little bit, please. No, I
7 didn't receive it.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just an
9 intervention. We have been told that the part that has been put to the
10 witness actually is on the previous page in the B/C/S.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's have a look at the previous page. In the
12 B/C/S. So ...
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have it now. I've read it.
14 MR. TRALDI:
15 Q. So we see here essentially the same conclusion as in the last
16 document; right?
17 A. Yes. Yes, the relationship is the same: You can leave if our
18 people are allowed to come.
19 Q. To come. To move into the places that previously had been
20 inhabited by Muslims and Croats; right?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak into
22 the microphone. We cannot hear him.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you speak into the microphone.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This only refers to this
25 possibility, if across the separation line, across the front line, the
1 combat line, whatever, if it is ensured that ethnic Serbs can arrive who
2 want to leave that territory, and they want that, they say that through
3 the media and whatever, and they're asking someone to help them leave
4 Konjic, Travnik, Sarajevo, wherever, and to leave that territory. Just
5 like Muslims and Croats cannot leave the territory of the AR Krajina
6 because it's blocked. Even if somebody said, You're supposed to leave,
7 how could they leave? It was simply impossible to do that at the time.
8 It was only later in the summer that these organised exchanges started.
9 At this moment, no. So these decisions that were made do not really have
10 any effect -- or these conclusions or...
11 MR. TRALDI: Could we have 65 ter 08264.
12 Q. These are the minutes of the 24th Session of the
13 Petrovac Municipality Crisis Staff dated the 3rd of June, 1992. Petrovac
14 was one of the municipalities in the ARK; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We see here at point 1 a discussion of the conclusions of the
17 Autonomous Region of Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka. We see at item
18 1 below that that a man named Bogdan Latinovic read the conclusions of
19 the AR Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, reached at the session held on
20 29.05.1992, and then the Crisis Staff of Petrovac municipality gave a
21 proposition for the ARK Crisis Staff's conclusions to be adopted in full
22 as follows. At subpoint 1, we read:
23 "It has been decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish be
24 enabled to evacuate from the territory of Autonomous Region of Krajina
25 but only under the condition that the Serbs outside the Serbian
1 Autonomous Regions also be allowed to evacuate to the territory of the
2 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is, the Autonomous
3 Region of Krajina. In this way, the organised exchange of population
4 would be carried out, that is its evacuation from one part of the former
5 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina to the other."
6 MR. TRALDI: Turning to page 2, in the B/C/S as well now.
7 Q. We read at the bottom of the page in the English and the middle
8 of the page in the B/C/S:
9 "The Crisis Staff has decided to form a board for the
10 implementation of these conclusions, that is on the evacuation of Muslims
11 from the territory of Petrovac municipality."
12 So the Petrovac Crisis Staff thought that these conclusions, in
13 fact, had effect and that they were supposed to begin implementing them,
14 and that's what they did; right?
15 A. Well, that's it. That is what was invoked, that conclusion.
16 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I tender this document as the next
17 public Prosecution Exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 8264 receives number P6975,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
22 MR. TRALDI: I see it's time for the break, Mr. President. I am
23 running a little bit behind schedule but I anticipate being done early in
24 the next session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Early is a rather vague concept.
1 MR. TRALDI: It's been a little bit difficult to predict the
2 duration. I'd say certainly in the first half of the session and
3 probably in the first quarter, but it depends to some extent on how the
4 examination develops.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you give us an indication as
6 to how much time you would need as matters stand now?
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] At this moment, Your Honour, I
8 believe it would be up to 10 minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Then, Witness, before we take a break, two matters. First, I
11 invited you to write down names and names of companies of those who
12 stayed within those companies. Have you done so?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't write that. I cannot
14 remember the exact names. Juso, Yugo, Split, that is for customs duty on
15 goods. Now, there's this one in the municipality I cannot remember.
16 There was this Muslim from Kotor Varos who was in my secretariat. He was
17 a lot older than I am, but I simply cannot remember his name.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you remember names, please write them down.
19 If you don't remember names, of course you cannot write them down.
20 That's clear. That's one.
21 Second, you may remember that before the last break we had some
22 questions about the decision of the 22nd of June, 1992, to be implemented
23 by the 26th of June, where you said that you were not relieved from your
24 duties, although you did not implement that order, and then we later
25 established that you had stayed in your position until the 15th of June.
1 Now, just to clarify matters, when you said you stayed until the
2 15th of June, I assumed - but please correct me when I'm wrong - that you
3 were referring to the 15th of June, 1992. Is that -- was that correctly
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, 15th of June. 15th of
6 June, 1992. But I remained in this function of the secretariat and ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, okay. Then we well understood that you were
8 referring to 1992.
9 You may follow the usher. And we'll take a break of 20 minutes.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 20 minutes past midday.
12 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting for the witness to be escorted
15 in the courtroom, I would like to briefly stay attention to Exhibit D314.
16 On the 14th of October of this year, the Defence indicated that
17 it wished to withdraw Exhibit D314 as it was satisfied with the content
18 of Exhibit P1640 in evidence. The Chamber accepts this withdrawal and
19 hereby instructs the Registry to mark D314 as not admitted in e-court and
20 to include in the additional comments column a note that D314 was
21 withdrawn in light of P1640.
22 [The witness takes the stand]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi.
24 MR. TRALDI: Could we have Exhibit P2900, please.
25 Q. This is a report from a Banja Luka CSB commission from
1 August 1992.
2 MR. TRALDI: If we could have page 10 of the English and 13 in
3 the B/C/S, please.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I didn't see the first
6 MR. TRALDI:
7 Q. Sir, we're looking here at a portion of the report related to
8 Bosanski Novi --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think we should follow the instructions of
10 Mr. Traldi rather than spontaneously respond to what the witness said.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. TRALDI:
13 Q. At the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and in the middle of the
14 page in the English, we read:
15 "Pursuant to the decision on the voluntary resettlement of
16 citizens of the government of the AR of Krajina and the order of the
17 Crisis Staff of the municipality of Bosanski Novi on the criteria for
18 voluntary resettlement, 5.680 persons with proper documents ..."
19 MR. TRALDI: And I think we're turning to the next page in the
21 Q. "... left the municipality of Bosanski Novi on 23 July 1992 and
22 emigrated with the assistance of UNPROFOR and the High Commission for
23 Refugees to Croatia, Slovenia, and other countries of western Europe."
24 So, here, the Banja Luka CSB is concluding that the ARK Crisis
25 Staff 's decisions on resettlement were, in fact, implemented in Bosanski
1 Novi; right?
2 A. First of all, it wasn't a decision. It was a conclusion.
3 Secondly, I cannot answer that question just like that. This was done
4 only in July. I claim that it was impossible until the breakthrough of
5 the police or perhaps -- corridor or maybe only with the police. And if
6 I'm not mistaken, May, June. And it's the Executive Council of the
7 government that is being invoked here, and that makes sense.
8 Q. I'm going to turn now --
9 MR. TRALDI: I'm going to ask Ms. Stewart to play a clip which
10 has been uploaded as 65 ter 22682b, and it will be the second of two
11 clips under that number. We'll have to play it twice. It's a portion of
12 a rally.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what about the first of the two clips,
14 will you separate it?
15 MR. TRALDI: We'll seek -- the first is solely to place two
16 particular people there. For efficiency, we'll seek to just speak to the
17 Defence about that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we'll hear from you.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, people's
22 "Radoslav Brdjanin: Brothers and sisters, dear people of
23 Krajina, and all other patriots who have come to this meeting, we must
24 not succumb to the greatest deceit, that we are voting for war or peace.
25 We are voting for the betrayal or rescues of Republika Srpska. Those
1 leftist forces which are offering us co-existence again must know that it
2 is the obligation of Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet
3 from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this land of ours. Also
4 it is not true that we do not know where our borders lie. Our borders
5 extend from Benkovac to Trebinje, our borders extend from the Hungarian
6 border all the way to Sokolac, and I hope with the capital of Belgrade
7 when we say that we are a national Serbian state ... we must tell the
8 world that on Serbian land no one has the right to proclaim those were
9 defeated as victors because this is the native land of Tsar Dusan,
10 Prince Lazar, Karadjordje, and the Serbian heros of today. I urge you to
11 participate in the referendum in large numbers, because that referendum,
12 let me warn you, offers to us that we cede 20 populated places of which
13 13 are cities. It offers to us that we return to Alija and Tudjman and
14 live with them. And I suggest that we put up a barbed wire and say that
15 never gain will our enemies spread throughout Krajina and attack us for
16 the fifth or fourth time in this century. The worst thing is that some
17 individuals have now remembered that war should not have been waged, as
18 we were the ones who imposed war. Some have now remembered that NATO is
19 dangerous. Do those gentlemen know that our lives, the lives of those of
20 us who are married and have children are several times cheaper than the
21 lives of the young men lying in their graves on their behalf? Dammed be
22 the one who betrays Republika Srpska and the interests of the Serbian
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
25 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, if I can just draw your attention to one
1 translation issue, I guess. It's on page 52, line 21. It was referred
2 here in the translation --
3 JUDGE ORIE: If it is anything which is relevant at this moment,
4 then we would deal with it. If --
5 MR. LUKIC: Maybe it can create a confusion. I don't know.
6 MR. TRALDI: I'd ask that if the witness doesn't speak English,
7 he be asked to remove his headphones.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Do you speak English, Mr. Sajic? Mr. Sajic, do you speak
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. You responded to my question when you had your
13 earphones off. Do you understand any English? Do you understand any
14 English or no English at all?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic.
17 MR. LUKIC: This is nothing major. Only here it was referred to
18 "Krajina." And it should be "Krajina square." So that's the only issue
19 I have with this translation.
20 JUDGE MOLOTO: Where, Mr. Lukic?
21 MR. LUKIC: It's 52, line 21. It says: "Spread throughout
22 Krajina." And on B/C/S, Brdjanin said: "Through Krajina square."
23 JUDGE ORIE: And that being a square --
24 MR. LUKIC: In Banja Luka.
25 JUDGE ORIE: In Banja Luka. That's your -- okay.
1 Then I take it that that will not be the focus of your questions,
2 Mr. Traldi. But it will be verified. Could I, while we are in -- I also
3 saw a -- in the beginning I saw the text with the name of the speaker,
4 Mr. Brdjanin, and then what his position was, and halfway there was
5 another text on the screen which I had no time to read much but
6 it's looked as direct --
7 MR. LUKIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... direct stream.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Direct stream, yes. I -- when I had deciphered
9 "direct" then I didn't know what the rest was, which means that it was
10 broadcasted directly or at least?
11 MR. LUKIC: That's what it says on this recording.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. TRALDI: That's my understanding, too.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
15 MR. TRALDI:
16 Q. Sir, in the last image here, we see the top of the banner on the
17 right. What we see is "cvi srbi," or "all Serbs," and what would be
18 below that if we could see it would read "in one state"; right?
19 A. If I were to see it I could say yes, but what I see now is all
20 Serbs, "cvi srbi."
21 Q. Mr. Brdjanin says here at the beginning of the video:
22 "It is the obligation of Serbs over the next 100 years to wipe
23 their feet from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of
25 This is one of the derogatory public speeches that Mr. Brdjanin
1 made that we discussed earlier in your testimony; right?
2 A. I don't know when this speech was made. That I did not see.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That wasn't the question. It was not when but
4 whether this is a derogatory speech of the kind Mr. Brdjanin made.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood the contents of the
6 speech as saying that we need to come to our senses. I don't even know
7 what the vote was about, so I cannot comment on it. Why the referendum?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please focus on the line that was brought
9 to your attention:
10 "It's the obligation of Serbs over the next 100 years to wipe
11 their feet from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of
13 That is what Mr. Traldi was drawing your attention to when he
14 asked you whether this was a derogatory public speech as Mr. Brdjanin
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see. From the context he's
17 not denying. He's just saying if you don't win, you will be cleaning the
18 shoes of those who did such and such a thing in World War II to us. I
19 mean, it's a bit nationalist. These are meetings, rallies that were held
20 frequently in our part of the world.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Traldi.
22 MR. TRALDI:
23 Q. I'm going to test your evidence a little bit on that. When he
24 refers to foul non-Christians. Calling them "foul," that's derogatory;
1 A. For us it is, yes.
2 Q. And when he suggests that their presence has befouled the soil of
3 Republika Srpska. That's derogatory too; right?
4 A. These are authorities that he is talking about, not the people.
5 Somebody wins power, and then you have Sarajevo, Izetbegovic, and so on.
6 He meant the authorities, those in power, not the people.
7 Q. He says the foul non-Christians, not the foul SDA members, the
8 foul HDZ members, the foul members of the Patriotic League. He says the
9 foul non-Christians. That means everybody; right?
10 A. I don't know when the speech was given. It would be easier for
11 me if I knew that.
12 Q. Our records indicate 1994.
13 A. These are still war time speeches. It wasn't just one sentence
14 that he spoke. It's a speech.
15 Q. In another sentence in the speech, he suggests that the Serbs
16 "put up a barbed wire and say that never again will our enemies spread."
17 Putting up a barbed wire means keeping out the people who had left the
18 area; right?
19 A. No. We're not putting up the barbed wire. He's referring to
20 barbed wire as some sort of something. You could just understand it as a
21 concept, as a comparison. I mean, where would you put up barbed wire in
22 the Krajina square? I mean, this was in the centre of Banja Luka. You
23 cannot put barbed wire up in the Krajina square in the centre of
24 Banja Luka.
25 Q. Right. It's a concept a comparison, a metaphor?
1 A. Metaphor, that's right.
2 Q. Barbed wire, he is using it as a metaphor because barbed wire is
3 something that you use to keep people out; right?
4 A. It depends. I mean, somebody uses electricity, barbed wire is a
5 concept involving Jasenovac.
6 JUDGE MOLOTO: Could we get interpretation Jasenovac, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is not a matter of interpretation but
8 rather a reference to a historical event.
9 Could you clarify with the witness.
10 MR. TRALDI:
11 Q. Sir, when you say Jasenovac, you're referring to a camp where
12 Serbs were held, many killed, during the Second World War; right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And barbed wire at that camp would have been used to restrict
15 people's movement; right? In that case, to stop them from going out.
16 A. What I'm saying is that the mention of barbed wire would make
17 us to remember Jasenovac. I'm not saying that that was that comparison.
18 I mean, the same thing would happen if you mentioned the river Sava,
19 something like that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, let's try to keep matters a bit shorter.
21 The reference to barbed wire and enemies never spread again, is
22 that a reference to enemies not to return where Serbs are living at that
23 moment? In your understanding.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have listened to
25 this footage twice. It's the first time and the second time he is
1 referring to the Krajina square and barbed wire, and he probably is
2 referring to that kind of rule never returning to Banja Luka again.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What rule do you mean? My question was simple, not
4 for you to explain what you heard but whether the reference to the barbed
5 wire and the enemies never spread again, and I on purpose left out where,
6 not exactly, whether that's a reference to enemies that should not return
7 where Serbs are living. Is that your understanding of it or is it not?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that this was the
9 Krajina square that they were talking about and that it should not return
10 there. As for the rest, I'm not quite sure I understand.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- you said it was a metaphor. Are you
12 really telling us that you believe that it was all to keep the enemies
13 out of that specific square, wherever they could -- they could move in
14 the streets around, they could move in the villages, they could move in
15 everywhere apart from that square? Is that your understanding? Then
16 please tell us so that we can ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He mentioned the Krajina square.
18 It's not clear to me what he was actually saying in that speech.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, the Chamber would not mind if you move
21 MR. TRALDI: I would ask that the video before marked for
22 identification before I do. We'll speak with the Defence about the first
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Registrar still would like to have the
25 CD, I take it.
1 Madam Registrar, the number would be.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document 22682b receives number P6976,
3 Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Marked for identification.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. TRALDI: Could we have to P2875.
7 Q. This document comes from the 1st Krajina Corps command. It's
8 dated the 1st of June, 1992. Directing your attention to the end of the
9 third paragraph, we read:
10 "A portion of the Muslim and Croatian population, is moving out
11 and the region of Bosnian Krajina has issued a decision to facilitate
12 such departures providing that the Serbs from Central Bosnia and places
13 with predominantly Muslim and Croatian populations were also allowed to
14 move out. Those departing will not be allowed to return."
15 Now this is describing the conclusions that we just saw from the
16 29th of May ARK Crisis Staff meeting that we looked at last session;
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the description that those departing will not be allowed to
20 return, that's consistent with Mr. Brdjanin's speech about not letting
21 enemies come back; right?
22 A. I cannot answer that question. You're linking the speech and
23 this document here, and they have nothing to do with each other. Vukic
24 was writing about this, and nobody was moving out. Brdja was speaking in
25 1994, whereas the document talks about 1992. In my opinion, these two
1 things are not related at all.
2 Q. Well, first you say nobody was moving out. The document reports,
3 in fact, that a portion of the Muslim and Croatian population is moving
4 out. That's true what Colonel Vukelic has written there, right?
5 A. It's not true. It wasn't so. Vukelic was Talic's assistant for
6 morale and he was submitting a report, information, in which he was
7 saying that people were moving out, but he didn't know it. Nobody could
8 move out. You can see that this was the 1st of June and on the 28th the
9 corridor was broken through. I mean, it's just information. The
10 document needs to be reliable.
11 Q. It's clear from this that the information that the
12 1st Krajina Corps had was that people were moving out; right?
13 A. He's writing this information but it's not actually there. He is
14 writing it, sending it to his commander, and they both live in Banja Luka
15 and they're aware that there is no mass departure. The 1st of June, this
16 is the time that I'm speaking about, and it's quite another thing what
17 Brdja was talking about in 1994.
18 Q. Well, let's focus on the last sentence: "Those departing will
19 not be allowed to return." The rationale behind that was to allow Serbs
20 to move in; right?
21 A. I didn't understand. Let me hear it again, please.
22 Q. The rationale behind not allowing those Muslims and Croats to
23 return was to allow Serbs to move into their places; right?
24 A. I don't see that. I know of the following: Serbs were not
25 allowed to come back as deserters. I don't know that this had to do with
1 Muslims. I don't see that anywhere here. Serbs who were leaving who did
2 not want to defend their hearths, that's what it was referring. Some
3 other people were being killed in their stead. As for Muslims and
4 Croats, I don't know that that refers to them in this document. Perhaps
5 there was some talk about that, but that is not what this document is
6 about. I deny that.
7 Q. Sir, again, you haven't answered the question I asked you. But
8 let's cut this short.
9 MR. TRALDI: Can we have 65 ter 31672, page 25, please.
10 Q. This will be another portion of your Brdjanin testimony. I'm
11 going to start with what you're asked at the bottom of the page at line
12 22. You were asked:
13 "In the sense that Bosnian Muslims and Croats who leave will not
14 be allowed to return, period, and you're saying the rational behind that
15 is to allow Serbs to move in; right?"
16 And you respond:
17 "It is linked up in the text. In the statements, it is all
18 linked up. Yes."
19 Do you stand behind this portion of your Brdjanin testimony as
20 truthful and accurate?
21 A. Yes, it has to do with accommodating the Serbs who were thrown
22 out from Slavonia and other areas. As for the corridor and this
23 information, that has nothing to do with that. And I must emphasise,
24 this information was not given to me like this in its entirety.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Traldi, we are at this moment listening for a
1 long time now already to the interpretation of this witness of all kind
2 of documents, and it seems that his interpretation is different from what
3 the -- what the Prosecution is seeking to establish.
4 The Chamber finally will evaluate the entirety of the evidence
5 and it's clear that the witness interprets these materials differently
6 from the Prosecution.
7 MR. TRALDI: Yes. Your Honour, I do have one more question and
8 it's on the previous page, but what I've been seeking to establish with
9 this excerpt is that the witness is interpreting this document
10 differently than he has done before in the sworn testimony.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have seen that more than once today as well.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. TRALDI: And could we have page 25 of this document back.
14 Q. Now, we talked earlier about one of the strategic goals of the
15 Bosnian Serbs being not to be in the same state as Muslims and Croats.
16 You were asked about the relationship between these decisions and that
17 strategic goal here. Judge Agius asked you:
18 "The question is doesn't it make sense that the decision in
19 Bosnian Krajina that Muslims and Croats who leave are not going to be
20 allowed to return because strategic goal number 1 is not to be in the
21 same state as Muslims and Croats? That's the question.
22 "In other words, you are being asked to confirm that the decision
23 of the ARK Crisis Staff that those who leave will not be allowed to
24 return fits in the first strategic point mentioned or outlined by
25 Krajisnik according to that report."
1 And you answered:
2 "To leave room from those who will be coming from elsewhere, the
3 Serbs coming from other parts. In that sense, yes."
4 Do you stand today behind your testimony in the Brdjanin case
5 under oath that the ARK Crisis Staff's decision, that Muslims and Croats
6 who left the ARK would not be allowed to return, was part of the first
7 strategic goal set out at the 16th Assembly?
8 A. I stand by the statement I gave in the Brdjo case, I'm leaving
9 that possibility open, and I'm not saying something else today. As for
10 the strategic goals of cleansing the territory and changing borders so
11 that they would include ethnic holes is not my interpretation of it. I'm
12 not changing my statement, though.
13 Q. I'd put to you that in that case you said in that sense, yes,
14 this did fit in first strategic point. Today you're saying, I'm leaving
15 the possibility open but ... and then a long list of other things. I'd
16 put to you that you are, in fact, changing your testimony about this.
17 That's true, isn't it?
18 A. I don't know exactly about this formulation that you put to me,
19 the strategic goals. I understood it differently, so I am having
20 problems about that.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
22 of his sentence.
23 MR. TRALDI:
24 Q. Sir, could you please repeat the last part of your sentence.
25 A. I said that I stand by the statement that I gave. I don't see
1 any difference there. We're just interpreting it differently, the
2 Prosecutor and myself. I don't see that one of the goals was ethnic
3 cleansing, but, rather, the strategic goal of ethnic communities.
4 And as for Muslims and Croats who were moving out and leaving
5 some areas free, it's logical that those areas would be filled by those
6 Serbs arriving from Slavonia and other places. You couldn't leave them
7 empty. They moved into Serb areas over there and then in turn the Serbs
8 moved into theirs, and that would be that.
9 MR. TRALDI: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Traldi.
12 Mr. Stojanovic, any questions in re-examination?
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have a few questions,
14 Your Honour.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Stojanovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Sajic, I know you're tired. If you permit
17 me, I will just put a couple of questions to. I will try to be as direct
18 and as brief as possible. Do you remember when you were asked about the
19 conversation between Karadzic and Cizmovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. My question is: Do you know what post was occupied by the person
22 who participated in that conversation as indicated? His name was
23 Jovan Cizmovic.
24 A. Jovan Cizmovic, from a well-known family of attorneys, at the
25 time was some judge or something, an attorney. In any case, he was in
1 the legal business. I don't know that he ever held any political or
2 executive position in the area of Banja Luka. He did not perform any
3 such duty. Perhaps he was in the SDS. Let's put it that way. Some sort
4 of commissioner of a republican board or below Karadzic. But in any
5 event, he did not have any official post. This is as far as Cizmovic is
7 Q. Thank you. And do you know if that man at any point in time in
8 1992 was a member of the Banja Luka Municipality Crisis Staff or the ARK
9 Krajina Crisis Staff?
10 A. No, never. During that period, he was not in either body. He
11 communicated with Pale, actually, but in the town he was not a
12 significant figure.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know -- actually, I don't want it to be a
14 leading question so I will put the question to you in the following way.
15 At any point in time, were there any party Crisis Staffs?
16 A. There were party Crisis Staffs. As far as I know, yes, there
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. Each of the parties. Each of the three parties.
20 Q. And touching upon questions that had to do with people who worked
21 with you in the TO, and you mentioned their names as people who were
22 non-Serbs but still remained at their posts. Could you please tell the
23 Trial Chamber how after the 15th of June the TO changed?
24 A. The Territorial Defence in a broader area, but I will speak about
25 Banja Luka because I was in charge there, before the 15th of June was
1 made up of a series of units ranging from squads to companies, and then
2 the Territorial Defence was supposed to restructure its units according
3 to some structure into four light infantry brigades, and these brigades
4 were then -- came under the command of the Krajina Corps. And there was
5 a special staff that was in charge of those brigades. So each
6 municipality formed a light brigade. People who worked in the TO Staffs
7 stayed in each of these brigades.
8 Q. I'm going to ask you now to tell us about the people whose names
9 you mentioned, these three colleagues of yours who were not of Serb
10 ethnicity. After the 22nd June 1992, these people remained at their
12 A. Yes, they did. Some of them stayed at these posts until the end
13 of the war even, and they live in Banja Luka to this day.
14 Q. Thank you. I'm going to finish with one more topic. At any
15 point in time at meetings of the ARK Crisis Staff, was the -- there any
16 discussion of attempts to prevent the forcible transfer of population
17 from the Krajina area?
18 A. I didn't understand your question.
19 Q. The ARK Krajina Crisis Staff, did it ever discuss possible
20 attempts to prevent the population from moving out under pressure.
21 A. I know that forcible moving out was prohibited. I know that. It
22 was discussed, and I don't think that anything like that occurred while I
23 was in Banja Luka.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D423.
1 Q. It's a conclusion that you had the opportunity to see in your
2 cross-examination. We're going to be looking at page 3.
3 A. This is page 2.
4 Q. Let's just wait, Mr. Sajic, so you can have some context so that
5 you can see that it's a document that you already looked at.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at the following
7 page in the B/C/S.
8 Q. You already commented this document. Could you please now look
9 at paragraph 2 of these conclusions, which states:
10 "The Crisis Staff has decided to resolutely oppose all attempts
11 to move the population out by force or any other form of pressure and to
12 prevent any such attempts with all means available under the law."
13 Is this conclusion what you have just told us about as something
14 that was discussed at the Crisis Staff?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Sajic, thank you very much. The Defence of General Mladic
17 has no further questions for you. Thank you very much for your
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
20 No further questions from the Prosecution.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE ORIE: You told us -- I have one further question.
23 You told about Zoran Kolak. Could you give us the details of
24 what happened to him? What functions he was doing; where he's living
1 A. Zoran Kolak was a member of my Territorial Defence Staff. It
2 was -- he was in charge of security of buildings. That is a very
3 important job because that was security for public facilities, bridges,
4 et cetera. He is a Croat, an ethnic Croat, and he has two children, and
5 his family was a well-known family, Kolak from the Second World War, the
6 partisans, and he remained on the Territorial Defence staff throughout
7 while I was there, that is. I think that he stayed and then he went to
8 the 1st Light Brigade, I think. And after that I think he left
9 Banja Luka and I don't really know where he is right now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you told us several times that what you
11 think. You said he stayed with you until you left, that is, the 15th of
13 A. That's right.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said he then went to the light
15 infantry brigade you think. Do you know that for sure? You know that
16 for certain?
17 A. That's right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know -- yes, please. Are you sure?
19 A. I cannot remember but I know that right now he is not in
20 Banja Luka. But when he comes, he calls.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And you say he is not in Banja -- you do not know
22 for sure whether he went to this light infantry brigade?
23 A. I can't remember. I think he did. I think he belonged to that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you don't remember. You do remember now
25 that he is not living in Banja Luka any further. Is that ...
1 A. Well, I don't see him. He's not there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So in effect you are telling us you don't know
3 for sure, you don't even remember when he went to the light infantry
4 brigade, and you do not know for sure whether he stayed because you don't
5 see him in Banja Luka, so therefore he may not be in Banja Luka any
6 further. That's your evidence?
7 A. Your Honour, just a second. Zdenko Uvalic, a Croat, went to the
8 2nd Light Brigade and Kolak went to the 1st Light Brigade.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
10 A. Now I --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So now you do remember. He went to the
12 1st Light Infantry Brigade?
13 A. He went but I don't know how he -- how long he stayed. That I
14 don't know.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you don't -- actually, you don't know
16 actually what happened with them, at least with Mr. Kolak.
17 A. I know about Uvalic, but I know that Kolak lives abroad.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I'm asking you about Kolak and you tell me
19 that you have no firm knowledge about what happened to him and that he is
20 now living abroad.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. No further questions.
23 Then, Mr. Sajic, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to
24 thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered the
25 questions that were put to you, put to you by the parties, put to you by
1 the Bench. You're excused and I wish you a safe return home again.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, I establish that you did not do
5 anything with the incorrect or the different formulations in the
6 adjudicated facts, so apparently no -- until now, no adequate measures
7 are taken in this respect.
8 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness once we have taken
9 a break?
10 MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll take a break and we'll resume at 25
12 minutes to 2.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 1.17 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, not yet.
16 I'd first like to use the opportunity to briefly deliver a
17 statement by the Chamber. It is the Chamber will briefly address the
18 Defence submissions on the Chamber's time management guidance. It takes
19 us back to the 25th of August of this year when the Defence made several
20 submissions essentially objecting to the time management guidance
21 delivered by the Chamber on 24th of July.
22 After having carefully reviewing the submissions, it appears to
23 the Chamber that the Defence has misunderstood the guidance offered and
24 finds the Defence submissions in this respect to be without merit.
25 Although the Chamber considers this to be very unfortunate, it
1 sees no value in repeating or attempting to further clarify that which it
2 has already made abundantly clear time and time again. In this respect,
3 the Chamber encourages the Defence to revisit and carefully consider the
4 Chamber's guidance as well as the full record of these proceedings before
5 it jumps to any conclusions that the Chamber is somehow changing the
6 rules concerning the production of evidence.
7 Madam Registrar, you can already go and find the witness.
8 Lastly -- yes, the usher. Yes.
9 Lastly, the Chamber finds the Defence submissions concerning the
10 investigation of witnesses and members of the Defence team difficult to
11 understand. Accordingly, should the Defence intend to pursue these
12 matters, it is instructed to file a motion clearly describing the
13 relevant issues and explicitly stating the relief sought.
14 And this concludes the Chamber's submissions on this matter.
15 We're waiting for the witness to be escorted into the courtroom.
16 Mr. Lukic, I see it's you who will examine the witness, the
17 witness being Mr. Krsic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Krsic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE ORIE: May I invite to you make the solemn declaration, of
23 which the text is now handed out to you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: VOJISLAV KRSIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
4 Mr. Krsic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Lukic. You'll find
5 him to your left. Mr. Lukic is counsel for Mr. Mladic.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examination by Mr. Lukic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Krsic.
10 A. Good day.
11 Q. I will pause a bit after your answers so that the interpreters
12 could finish interpreting. It's not that I'm not satisfied with your
13 answers. I just need to wait for the interpretation.
14 Could you please just state your name and surname for the record.
15 A. I am Vojislav Krsic.
16 MR. LUKIC: Your Honour, did you want to say something? No?
17 JUDGE ORIE: No.
18 MR. LUKIC: Your microphone is on so I thought --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's usually Judge Fluegge reminds me that I
20 should switch it off. But you are taking over his task, I hear. Thank
21 you very much for that.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm very grateful, Mr. Lukic.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have to take some of your
24 chores, since you are taking many of mine.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krsic, have you provided a statement to the
1 members of General Mladic's Defence team?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. LUKIC: Can we have 1D1684 on our screens, please.
4 And with the assistance of the usher, I would like to provide
5 this witness with the witness statement as well and -- first to be shown
6 to the Prosecution.
7 THE WITNESS: Thanks.
8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So, Mr. Krsic, you now have a hard copy, but you can also see a
10 document on the screen. Can you recognise the signature on the first
11 page of this document?
12 A. Yes, that is my signature.
13 MR. LUKIC: Can we see the last page of this document, please.
14 Q. [Interpretation] On the last page, can you recognise the
16 A. Yes, that is my signature.
17 Q. Let me not ask you page by page. What is contained on every
18 page, at the bottom of every page?
19 A. Yes, on every page you can see my signature, my original
21 Q. Mr. Krsic, what is recorded in this statement, has it been
22 recorded correctly in relation to what you had said to the members of
23 General Mladic's Defence team?
24 A. Yes. This statement records what I said to the Defence team.
25 Q. What is written in this statement, is it truthful and correct?
1 A. What is written in this statement is truthful and correct, to the
2 best of my recollection.
3 Q. Mr. Krsic, if I were to put the same questions to you today,
4 would you give us basically the same answers?
5 A. Yes, I would provide the same answers basically.
6 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, we would tender this statement into
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Lukic, I think we were provided with a
9 information note with --
10 MR. LUKIC: My apologies.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- at least two corrections.
12 MR. LUKIC: That's actually -- yeah. Paragraph 4, you are
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
15 MR. LUKIC: You are returning a favour.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm happy to do that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Lukic.
18 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Can we have paragraph 4 on
19 our screens, please. It's on page 2. Although I put it in front of me,
20 I forgot to deal with this.
21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krsic --
22 A. Yes --
23 Q. -- you drew my attention to something; namely, that in
24 paragraph 4, you omitted to mention one of the platoons. Do you remember
25 which platoon that would be, the one that you omitted to mention?
1 A. Yes, I forgot to mention yet another platoon that was within our
2 brigade. That is the independent anti-sabotage platoon, and it also has
3 an abbreviation in B/C/S.
4 Q. All right. So in the battalion, there were how many companies
5 and how many platoons when you arrived?
6 A. I'd like to correct you here. It's not battalions. It is the
7 light infantry brigade.
8 Q. Sorry.
9 A. In the light infantry brigade, there were seven companies and
10 there were these independent platoons, the ones that are mentioned here
11 plus the one that I referred to just now. That is what I found there
12 when I arrived in the brigade. Later on we established yet another
13 platoon, but that is sometime in October. Actually, this was the reserve
14 of the brigade and we usually called it the intervention platoon.
15 What is referred to here in the statement is the situation that I
16 found there when I arrived to join the light infantry brigade.
17 Q. Thank you. Now with your assistance and with the assistance of
18 Judge Fluegge, after this correction I have to ask you yet again whether
19 this statement is truthful and correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. LUKIC: Now we would move to offer this statement into
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1684 receives number D844,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D844 is admitted.
2 MR. LUKIC: Your Honours, I asked for extra time for leading this
3 witness and I -- it's less than hour. It's 55 minutes I asked for.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's a little bit more than the usual 30
5 minutes. You know that there's a balance for the whole of the
6 presentation of the Defence case, but there's no objection against -- did
7 you say 45 or 55?
8 MR. LUKIC: Fifty five.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Fifty five, yes. The Chamber, as always, will
10 closely monitor how you use your time but does not object against using
11 more time.
12 MR. LUKIC: I would -- thank you, Your Honour. I would first
13 read statement summary of Mr. Krsic and then I would pose my questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 Vojislav Krsic was a professional soldier at the Zagreb garrison
17 until 15th of September, 1991, when he left the JNA with the rank of
18 captain. He came to Kotor Varos in July 1992. And on 28th of August,
19 1992, he joined the 1st Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade. He was
20 engaged as the assistant to the Chief of Staff for operations and
21 instruction matters. He will speak about the composition of the brigade.
22 Vojislav Krsic will testify about Grabovica, where he was present
23 in person about the beginning of the incident and the persons present
24 there, about the accommodation of Muslim men, soldiers, women, and
25 children at the elementary school building in Grabovica, about the
1 gathering of inhabitants of Grabovica, mainly women in mourning attire.
2 He will speak about the security at the school on the first
3 evening and the stay of the Muslims there, including the tasks he
4 personally issued to the security. He witnessed the arrival of buses,
5 the boarding of women and children, and their departure from Grabovica.
6 He will provide details about the beginning of the incident, the first
7 murder of a Muslim, in which no military personnel were involved.
8 He will also testify that the then-commander of the brigade sent
9 him to the brigade command post at Kotor Varos, and subsequently he was
10 given other tasks, whereby he was moved away from Grabovica and from
11 further developments in the village.
12 Vojislav Krsic will also testify that not a single shell that had
13 been fired under his command was directed against civilian targets.
14 He will testify that it was never said that the area in which his
15 unit was located should be ethnically cleansed, let alone attempted to
16 implement such a thing in practice.
17 And Mr. Krsic testifies that his brigade was of multi-ethnic
19 That would be statement summary and now I have several questions
20 for this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 If we can have paragraph 6 of Mr. Krsic's statement. It's on the
24 next page in both versions.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Krsic, you do see a paragraph 6 before you,
1 don't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The first sentence in this paragraph says:
4 "At the time I joined the brigade, it was completely
6 I'd like to ask you something in relation to this. This
7 statement refers to which period? What would you say?
8 A. This statement refers to the period from the very establishment
9 of the brigade until, say, November. It could be put that way. However,
10 we made significant efforts in that direction, say, in the month of
11 October and November.
12 Q. Could you briefly tell us now why you believe that the brigade
13 was disorganised.
14 A. As regards military units, the word "organisational establishment
15 structure" is used. So it is this concept that is used in all armies in
16 the world, including our army. So the first word, "structure," means
17 that it has its command, its staff units, its combat units, logistics
18 units or unit, and so on.
19 The second part of this composite phrase, "establishment," means
20 that there is something to be said for each and every one of these
21 elements. As regards specialty, as regards type of military weapons and
22 so on. So that unit, as a whole, is able to function on that basis.
23 When I arrived in the Kotor Varos Brigade, that requirement, as
24 far as organisational establishment structure is concerned, had not been
25 met. First of all, that brigade did not have a developed command of its
1 own. That ask one element. Secondly, the units that were organisational
2 elements of that brigade, from an organisational establishment point of
3 view, did not have the necessary personnel. I'm just going to mention
4 something by way of illustration, say, the pioneer platoon that was one
5 of the elements of the organisational establishment structure. The
6 pioneer platoon is an engineering unit or, rather, a unit that is
7 supposed to be manned by persons who have engineering as their VES.
8 However, the 35 men we had on that platoon included only five persons
9 that met that requirement. Thirty men did not have that military
10 speciality at all; engineering, that is.
11 So that is what I would have to say about the organisational
12 establishment structure, namely, that this brigade was not organised
13 according to these rules as otherwise required by the former JNA and
14 military rules in general.
15 Q. You've already mentioned to us the intervention platoon that was
16 established later. Why is it important and what was it that wasn't
17 organised there before it had been established, that is?
18 A. When I arrived in the brigade, there was no reserve in this
19 brigade. Otherwise, a basic rule as far as combat disposition and combat
20 readiness of units of is concerned, everyone should have a reserve. If
21 there's a crisis possibly in some part of the combat disposition, then
22 that reserve can be used, or rather in that way such a weakness can be
24 Q. Another segment of this same question: The command of the
25 1st Krajina Corps, what was its attitude towards the
1 1st Kotor Varos Brigade?
2 A. As far as the Kotor Varos Brigade is concerned, the following
3 facts should be pointed out: The Kotor Varos Brigade was one of the most
4 recent units established in the 1st Krajina Corps. That is one fact.
5 Another important fact is something I've already mentioned; that is to
6 say, organisationally or logistically it was not provided for, and that
7 was necessary in order to have it carry out its tasks properly and fully.
8 Q. Just a moment, please. Who was appointed commander and how did
9 the command function of the 1st Kotor Varos Brigade?
10 A. With the order of the commander of the 1st Krajina Corps, I don't
11 remember the date but I think that was the 11th of June, 1992. The
12 Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade was to be formed, and the order
13 specified that Slobodan Zupljanin should be the commander of the brigade.
14 However, Slobodan Zupljanin was never in the Kotor Varos Brigade and he
15 was never actually the commander of that brigade.
16 In the initial period the brigade did not even have a commander.
17 I came to Kotor Varos sometime on the 22nd of July, and from the 22nd of
18 July until early August sometime, I contacted the Kotor Varos Brigade
19 command, and only Mane Tepic was there with a couple of officers, but he
20 was not in the commander in the true sense of having been appointed to
21 that duty. He was just co-ordinating all the tasks and carrying out the
22 co-ordination among the two units in the field.
23 The brigade at the time did not have its commander. It was only
24 later in agreement with the Kotor Varos War Presidency and the
25 22nd Infantry Brigade and probably in consultation with the command of
1 the 1st Krajina Corps, the commander of the brigade was Dusan Novakovic,
2 lieutenant-colonel. When I came to the brigade on the 22nd of August, I
3 had a meeting. I met commander, Dusan Novakovic there. He received me
4 and he assigned me to the post of assistance chief for operations and
6 As for the relationship between the Kotor Varos Brigade and the
7 1st Krajina Corps command - in fact, the Kotor Varos Brigade in that
8 sense was like an orphan because during that period it was not actually
9 in the system and in the command and control system by the corps command,
10 particularly not from the logistical aspect. The Kotor Varos Brigade
11 logistics, for the most part, was entrusted to the Kotor Varos
12 municipality and the Presidency. So the actual relationship between the
13 1st Krajina Corps and the light infantry brigade actually began in late
14 November or December 1992 onwards.
15 Q. I would like to ask you now about the communications system in
16 the Kotor Varos Brigade and what was the communications system with the
17 1st Krajina Corps command, let's say, from the time you arrived until
19 A. As far as the communications system is concerned, first of all I
20 have to say that within the brigade we had considerable problems. The
21 combat disposition of the units of the Kotor Varos Brigade was quite
22 spread out. They were located in local communes which were quite far
23 from the command post, which was located in Kotor Varos. So in this
24 initial period, the brigade only had a few older devices, RUK1, RUK1B,
25 which were practically outdated, especially in former JNA units. So we
1 didn't have very strong links between the command and the subordinate
2 units. This is one side of this whole issue.
3 Q. Which command and which subordinate units?
4 A. Between the command of the Kotor Varos Light Infantry Brigade and
5 its organisational units; i.e., the light infantry companies which were
6 deployed predominantly in the areas of the local communes.
7 And for the second part of the question that has to do with the
8 relationship or the communications between the light infantry brigade
9 command and the corps command: Until November we practically didn't have
10 a proper link between the two commands. It was only later when I became
11 the Chief of Staff I put in a lot of effort to set up proper
12 communications so then later we had both land-lines and telegraph
14 Q. Could you please tell us briefly how did you manage the problem
15 of the shortage of communication means.
16 A. When we're talking about the problem of communications and the
17 way we resolved it, we didn't receive the devices from the logistics
18 base, which was quite normal, from the 1st Krajina Corps command. We
19 used some other private channels to obtain these devices from the
20 2nd Krajina Corps. That was when we received more modern devices, RUP12
21 for example, which was a standard communications device in the JNA at the
23 Q. And when was this?
24 A. This was already when our logistics needs and communications with
25 the 2nd Krajina Corps started in October and then it went on after that.
1 Q. And did you receive orders and did you send combat reports to the
2 command of the 1 Krajina Corps and did you receive anything back from
4 A. As for the first part, I am speaking about the point in time when
5 I became the Chief of Staff of the brigade, we did not receive orders
6 directly from the 1st Krajina Corps command. The orders that we received
7 usually came via the command of the 22nd Infantry Brigade. I assume that
8 one of the reasons for that was due to the communications system, such as
9 it was, and the way I have already described.
10 So for the most part, the light infantry brigade did not always
11 send reports directly to the 1st Krajina Corps command, combat reports or
12 new other types of reports. Sometimes we would send it through the
13 command of the 22nd Infantry Brigade.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lukic, I'm looking at the clock.
15 Mr. Krsic, we'll adjourn for the day. We'd like to see you back
16 tomorrow morning at 9.30. But before you leave this courtroom, I'd like
17 to instruct you that you should not speak or communicate in whatever way,
18 with whomever, about your testimony, whether that's testimony given today
19 or it's testimony still to be given tomorrow. You may follow the usher.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow,
22 Thursday, the 4th of December, 9.30 in the morning, in this same
23 courtroom, I.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.15 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of
1 December, 2014, at 9.30 a.m.